Some Universalists claim that everyone is in the lake of fire now.
Some Universalists claim that God is the lake of fire since they read "Our God is a consuming fire."
Some Universalists claim that the lake of fire is still future but that it is a figure of speech in that those who go into the lake of fire actually go through the lake of fire and live while going through it.
Some Universalists claim that the lake of fire is the second death and that death is the absence of all life and therefore those in the lake of fire are not suffering at all but are in unconscious death.
What do you believe and why?
I believe you should start first.
:thumbsup:
greetings...
The lake of Fire IS the second death, we know this for a fact... SO, lets figure out what the first death is.........
wooot
chuck
I believe in some in a possible combination of all.
Everybody will be salted with fire.
So everyone will be in the lake.
I can accept the view that some do so right now.
Everyone comes short to the glory of God
Not sure that means that those salted with fire in this life get some extra salting in the afterlife too.
But surely some live a very good life that's far away from any Biblical teaching that for them teh salting comes in the afterlife.
Aren't there MANY threads on this already?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 12, 2010, 04:19:58 PM
Aren't there MANY threads on this already?
Some Universalists (such as me) claim that the lake of fire is the second death and that death is the absence of all life and therefore those in the lake of fire are not suffering at all but are in unconscious death.
If, as some Universalists believe, Christians are in the lake of fire now, then does this not prove their names are not in the book of life and therefore not saved?
Hi Tony,
Here is how I see it, not saying I am correct but at this time this is how I see things.
The book of Revelation was written mainly to the Israelites, seven Churches, those who believed salvation of works. I also think what John saw was what had been, what was happening, and what would happen.
(Rev. 20:12-13) And I saw the dead, {spiritually dead} small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: {laws} and another book was opened, which is the book of life: {Christ} and the dead {spiritually dead} were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. {laws)
(Verse 13) "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell {grave and physically dead} delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. {law} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
This is the death of death. Death will be destroyed.
You read about the Lamb, Bride, works in this book which all pertain to the Israelites. We who are dead in Christ are the Body not the Bride.
I believe the book of life is Christ.
I also believe the lake of fire and the second death is something we go through in this life but those who haven't, will at the end. The lake of fire and second death is not a literal fire and death but a spiritual one.
CHB
Thanks CHB, sounds like you and I have alot in common.
"The book of Revelation was written mainly to the Israelites, seven Churches, those who believed salvation of works." chb
I do not accept that. The book of Uncovering is to His servants/slaves (Rev.1:1)
The Manifestation is to those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.
Write (2Cor.3:2-3) to the called out ones, (seven) showing the strenght and the weakness in their walk, showing what must be strengthened and what must be removed.
No the Revealing is to you, and I should we be in the Way; To day.....Heb 3:15 seeing that the warning still comes to us, "TO-DAY, IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS YOUR FOREFATHERS DID IN THE TIME OF THE PROVOCATION." (WNT)
Peace and Love Through Jesus
YES micah7:9
It is written to the overcomer.
He is telling us our steps.
John was one of the disciples who was to go to the Israelites. Paul was the only one that was sent to the Gentiles.
(Rev. 1:11) What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches WHICH ARE IN ASIA.
(Rev. 22:16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the Churches.
All through the book of Revelation it mentions being judged according to their works, or overcoming, which applies to those under laws. It talks about kings and priests which was only connected to the temple and Israel. It mentions the Lamb, the Bride which is Jesus being led to be crucified. The Bride is Israel. Mystery babylon the great is Jerusalem. The twenty four elders represent the nation of Israel.
I didn't say the whole book was for Israel only, I would have to say the majority is.
CHB
C, do you think some of it could have dual/multiple fulfillment? And if so, then the challenge is knowing which and how....
WE ARE!:
The Kings and Priests!
WE ARE!:
The Bride!
WE ARE!:
The Overcomer in Christ Jesus!
WE ARE!:
The Twenty Four Elders
WE ARE!:
THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST
allelluiah
Glory! The Lord blessed you first my friend! Halleluiah! :thumbsup:
WE ARE!:
The abyss that contains no darkness!
WE ARE!:
The Lake of Fire!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSIs1MHdFQY
<---- see the lake in the fire?
In the video, are they in a "lake" being prepared to be baptized with ????? FIRE
This'll be good...
I believe that the entire book of Revelation has been completely fulfilled.
Then Dallas,
Prove it!
In the Mercy of God's Everlasting Wisdom,
Show me Christ in You, the Fulfillment of God in Man.
If you are the revelation why do you still bath each day?
Does your flesh not still stink?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 02:52:09 AM
Then Dallas,
Prove it!
"Those who desire a sign will not see one". - Jesus
QuoteIf you are the revelation why do you still bath each day?
Does your flesh not still stink?
You're going to have to ask my girlfriend that.
Ask a rediculous question, get a rediculous answer.
Dallas,
The question flew over your understanding.
The Risen Christ Jesus has no need of the physical, He is Light Everlasting.
QuoteIf you are the revelation why do you still bath each day?
Does your flesh not still stink?
Apparently, bacteria?? prevents the fulfillment of Christ... or as a sign of unfulfilment.
Guess I need to be more subjective and mystical in my interpretation of bacteria... bacteria, microscopic orgamism. Wait a minute, I'm just a giant organism whose minor organisms have not repented and still have odor! I need to be baptized in order for my bacterial repentance. YES I see it! I need to be purified!! My bacteria need Jesus! Hallelujah!!!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 03:02:39 AM
Dallas,
The question flew over your understanding.
The Risen Christ Jesus has no need of the physical, He is Light Everlasting.
1John 4:17 "By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment;
because as He is, so also are we in this world."
Even in my PHYSICAL body.
"Even in my PHYSICAL body."
Now, you get it!
He retains with Him that physical body of Jesus that was borne of Mary; glorified!
The restitution of All things!
Quote"Even in my PHYSICAL body."
Now, you get it!
Right, even in this physical body I am the complete fulfillment of Christ, in all ways. My death or personal growth has absolutley no bearing on that.
I am complete, and perfected, lacking nothing, been blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavens.
This body stops nothing, why? Because Jesus' fulfillment was both physical and spiritual...NOT just spiritual.
But Dallas,
I agree in your faith and hope,
but until we all walk in the fulness
I still need to eat
Jesus does not
I still need to bathe
Jesus does not
...
We are still in the in-part realm.
The Sons are not yet glorified; as you underwear might attest.
QuoteBut Dallas,
I agree in your faith and hope,
but until we all walk in the fulness
I still need to eat
Jesus does not
I still need to bathe
Jesus does not
...
We are still in the in-part realm.
The Sons are not yet glorified; as you underwear might attest
So you see this body as being something keeping me from fulfillment. I don;t have hope of fulfillment coming I believe that it's already here and done.
I am completley glorified, even in this body...just as Jesus is.
You are talking out both sides of your mouth. You say yes while in this body then you say you can;t be because if this body.
You argue spiritual works of Christ and try to prove your points by quoting physical evidence?
While in this body is our hope of glory,
but is not happened yet.
Do we do nothing but as we see the Father do?
Do we heal the sick and sight the blind as we see the Father do?
Jesus is the Pattern, and until now, the only one Who has glorified the flesh.
We still have only the promise.
Until you can say that I only do the Will of the One Who sent me; it ain't happened yet.
Give your girlfriend a big kiss g'night for me!
Ah! the pride of life! Exhausting!
QuoteWe still have only the promise.
2 Corinthians 1:20 "For all the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
Acts 13:32"And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers 33 that God has fulfilled this promise"
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things expected for, the evidence of things not seen."
Galatians 3: 25 "But now that faith has come"
Hebrews 10:1 "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come"
Sorry BS, but you have been waiting for promised fulfillment, you are still living by the words of the law.
Not so...
God watches over His Word.
And in Him they are complete.
And we are in Him.
But the whole creation anxiously waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
So Dallas,
I am your doubting Thomas.
If you are the manifestation of the Son of God.
Show me.
Jesus is the substance.
QuoteAnd in Him they are complete.
And we are in Him.
See, both sides of your mouth. We are complete, but we aren't?!?!
QuoteBut the whole creation anxiously waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
Your devotion to that very flawed doctrine doesn't remove the fact that scripture declares that all the promises were fulfilled. That you are waiting for the promises, and the law is what tells of coming promises.
Spouting some retorhic doesn't elude that.
So Dallas,
I am your doubting Thomas.
If you are the manifestation of the Son of God.
Show me.
QuoteSo Dallas,
I am your doubting Thomas.
If you are the manifestation of the Son of God.
Show me.
You prove it to yourself.
Is Jesus revealed in you, is His Holy Spirit present in you, are you a son of God?
You have said yes.
The Sons of God have been revealed. Christ within.
The whole doctrine of the revealing of the sons is just an unbilical idea set forth, a movement of people liked it and it came to life. Just like other "great spiritual" visionaries, this one luckly doesn't demand sacrifce to catch a comet.
"The whole doctrine of the revealing of the sons is just an unbilical idea set forth"
You see Dallas,
and I knew it would eventually come to this—
is that I believe the Bible and all the Scriptures and do not deny or disrespect them and warp them to fit my beliefs.
The manifestation of the Sons is in the Book of Romans. period.
If you don't believe, so be it — I do believe and set my heart on every Word of the Bible.
The whole idea of taking one scripture and blowing it out of proportion is a completley normal Pentacostal habit. This docctrine is just one of the many flavor of the movment. No meat and potatoes, but they really don;t care as long as it tastes good.
QuoteI believe the Bible and all the Scriptures
The manifestation of the Sons is in the Book of Romans. period
Right, you believe them one at a time and contort them one at a time to your passing whim.
You read them as you see fit, not as the bible lays them out in context.
Just as Jack Van Impe and John Haggie, just because they say the words doesn't mean they understand...
Romans 8:19 (King James Version)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
I live and breathe this Scripture!
If you think I am: "taking one scripture and blowing it out of proportion"
I disagree, I believe it verbatim.
This is the very meat of the Gospel and it tastes very good.
Romans 8:19 (King James Version)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
QuoteI do believe and set my heart on every Word of the Bible.
No you don't, you deny;
2 Corinthians 1:20 "For all the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us."
You said we are waiting for the promise.
QuoteRomans 8:19 (King James Version)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
I live and breathe this Scripture!
If you think I am: "taking one scripture and blowing it out of proportion"
I disagree, I believe it verbatim.
This is the very meat of the Gospel and it tastes very good.
Like I said, yes those words are there, but you have no understanding therof. You read them apart from the surrounding text as though they were the only letters on the page.
Mod Note - Let's redirect this to a discussion of understanding and interpretation of the specific doctrines and scriptures. Not doing so will likely get this topic locked. No need to get personal.
Hey Jab;
I would like to know where it is you think I am getting personal. I am responding to what BS has clearly stated.
Being serious, not jerky. :dontknow:
I deny no Scripture, for it is written.
All is in Him and through Him and with Him.
Yet:
Romans 8:19 (King James Version)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
QuoteI deny no Scripture
Ok, then why did you say that we are waiting for the promise? The scripture is quite clear that the promise has been fulfilled.
QuoteWhile in this body is our hope of glory,
but is not happened yet.
Do we do nothing but as we see the Father do?
Do we heal the sick and sight the blind as we see the Father do?
Jesus is the Pattern, and until now, the only one Who has glorified the flesh.
We still have only the promise.
Until you can say that I only do the Will of the One Who sent me; it ain't happened yet.
Give your girlfriend a big kiss g'night for me!
Hi Dallas. I didn't call your name or single you out. However, we really are straying from "this is how I understand it" and getting into "you do this, you do that"...see what I mean? there's a difference. One way we're discussing, the other we're assigning motives, making judgments about each other's intent, etc....
This can still be pulled back in to the topic...nothing severe yet, just placing a comma in the discussion, word to the wise, an ounce of prevention, all that :bigGrin:
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
NOW, was then. Not NOW 2000 years later. Time was at hand. The gospel had been preached to EVERY CREATURE, and we know that when that happened
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Quote from: Dallas on May 13, 2010, 04:04:47 AM
You prove it to yourself.
Is Jesus revealed in you, is His Holy Spirit present in you, are you a son of God?
You have said yes.
The Sons of God have been revealed. Christ within.
The whole doctrine of the revealing of the sons is just an unbilical idea set forth, a movement of people liked it and it came to life. Just like other "great spiritual" visionaries, this one luckly doesn't demand sacrifce to catch a comet.
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (so it would be finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
Quote from: Dallas on May 13, 2010, 04:04:47 AM
You prove it to yourself.
Is Jesus revealed in you, is His Holy Spirit present in you, are you a son of God?
You have said yes.
The Sons of God have been revealed. Christ within.
The whole doctrine of the revealing of the sons is just an unbilical idea set forth, a movement of people liked it and it came to life. Just like other "great spiritual" visionaries, this one luckly doesn't demand sacrifce to catch a comet.
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (it is finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Then there will never be a manifestation of the sons of God, because it will always be NOW; unless you are saying that the Sons ARE being manifest NOW.
QuoteSo we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
We should follow, solid biblical reasoning, not self-interest interpretation.
It's not about following one view, it's not about straying from biblical context.
Nice post zeek
Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
He "will have" is a future statement; which will never occur under your belief; because there will never be a "future", but only a NOW
...just ain't seeing Him yet.
...and this is "church."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 04:34:47 AM
Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is.
can't have a "shall be" if today is NOW, and NOW is all there is.
BS, you are still dodging my question.
You said the promise has not yet come, but the scripure says it has.
I am questioning your statement;
You believe all scripture.
Lake of fire a thriving portal.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego!
Guest (207.192.255.110) 09:39:34 PM Viewing the topic The lake of fire or Le lac de feu.
Hey Zeek;
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
Not to be rude to others, but great defense of scripture. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Ephesians:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
Without a whiff of smoke, Peacemaker.
And dallas, stop referring to me as BS, given U.S. vanacular, I shall refer to you as DL
B as in Beloved and S as in Servant....
Hence, BS.
Also, how come you said you believe all scripture, but can't answer my question.
The Scriptures say when we see Him we shall be like Him.
Ephesians:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
I understand the initials DL.
Quoteyou are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
Hey BS;
You said that we are WAITING the promise, but the very scripture you quoted says we have the promise, the holy spirit, and he seals us!
You are saying then we have the promises? Because that's what it sounds like, what then did you mean that we don't have the promise?
also
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
You believe all scripture, how can there be a coming revealing when Paul says 2000 years ago it happened?
You believe all scriptures, then please answer.
First, quit referring to me as BS.
Quote from: Dallas on May 13, 2010, 04:46:47 AM
Hey Zeek;
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
Not to be rude to others, but great defense of scripture. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:cloud9: And do you understand why it said "until now"? It's not because it ended then, it's because it BEGAN TO BE FINISHED THEN, in the body.
ALL of creation was/is under Hagar until He came/comes. Because the Son of God being birthed is a spiritual one, and the HEAD comes out first in a normal delivery, and that He did.
If you recall being BORN FROM ABOVE, caught up into our mother, heavenly Jerusalem, is the qualification for being BIRTHED into the Kingdom.
He did exactly that in pattern, as the HEAD, when He died, arose and ascended into "mother. It's our turn now, and I can tell you that NO MAN has ascended to heaven but He (Christ as Spirit Seed) that first came down from heaven.
According to the pattern of the Tabernacle timeline, and the dictates of a normal birth, the FEET are last, and this generation is the generation that is to walk Him around in shoe leather again, IN FULLNESS. Blessings....
I'm seriously not being out of line here.
But how can I take you seriously when you won't simply acknowledge you made a mistake. We all do it, I do it. Serious how can I have an intellectual conversation with you when I can't trust what you say. You made a mistake and if you can't acknolwdge that how can anyone trust your interpretation if you fight this, it poses the question what esle are you "stubbornly" holding onto.
Not trying to be rude, honestly.
Second:
I refer to this Scripture as I dust off my sandals for fertile ground.
1 Now this know, that in the last days perilous periods will be present,
2 for men will be selfish, fond of money, ostentatious, proud, calumniators, stubborn to parents, ungrateful, malign,
3 without natural affection, implacable, adversaries, uncontrollable, fierce, averse to the good,
4 traitors, rash, conceited, fond of their own gratification rather than fond of God;
5 having a form of devoutness, yet denying its power.
6 These, also, shun. For of these are those who are slipping into homes and are leading into captivity little women, heaped with sins, being led by various lusts and gratifications,
7 always learning and yet not at any time able to come into a realization of the truth.
20 "He Who is testifying these things is saying, 'Yea, I am coming swiftly.'" "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!"
Please Lord, Come, Lord Jesus!
QuoteAnd do you understand why it said "until now"? It's not because it ended then, it's because it BEGAN TO BE FINISHED THEN.
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
Read it in context, it says striaght forward, the whole creation groaned, until then!
I was walking in bad shoes until now. The sentance obviously means I was walking in shoes until then. Because it was present tense when Paul was talking he used the word now.
Just as in;
1 Corinthians 4:13 "when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now."
1 Corinthians 8:7 "However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Corinthians 15:6 "After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;"
Piliipians 1:5 "in view of yourparticipation in the gospel from the first day until now."
Wow, you got a strong spirit Dallas.
QuoteSecond:
I refer to this Scripture as I dust off my sandals for fertile ground.
1 Now this know, that in the last days perilous periods will be present,
2 for men will be selfish, fond of money, ostentatious, proud, calumniators, stubborn to parents, ungrateful, malign,
3 without natural affection, implacable, adversaries, uncontrollable, fierce, averse to the good,
4 traitors, rash, conceited, fond of their own gratification rather than fond of God;
5 having a form of devoutness, yet denying its power.
6 These, also, shun. For of these are those who are slipping into homes and are leading into captivity little women, heaped with sins, being led by various lusts and gratifications,
7 always learning and yet not at any time able to come into a realization of the truth.
20 "He Who is testifying these things is saying, 'Yea, I am coming swiftly.'" "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!"
Please Lord, Come, Lord Jesus
So then you can't simply acknowledge it then. As you quoted I hope you also read, for you gave me the advice;
So unfourtunatley I guess I will have to shun you, I wished it wouldn't have come to that, but if you can;t live in truth, we'll I guess you are limiting your fellowship.
G'night Dallas,
Give your girlfriend a big kiss g'night for me before you drive her home.
Peace be with you, you have a very strong spirit inside, peace be with you.
Quote from: Dallas on May 13, 2010, 05:13:07 AM
QuoteAnd do you understand why it said "until now"? It's not because it ended then, it's because it BEGAN TO BE FINISHED THEN.
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
Read it in context, it says striaght forward, the whole creation groaned, until then!
I was walking in bad shoes until now. The sentance obviously means I was walking in shoes until then. Because it was present tense when Paul was talking he used the word now.
Just as in;
1 Corinthians 4:13 "when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now."
1 Corinthians 8:7 "However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Corinthians 15:6 "After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;"
Piliipians 1:5 "in view of yourparticipation in the gospel from the first day until now."
:cloud9: Yes, it does and I explained why. Coming out from under the flesh of our natural mother "Hagar" who only reproduces an Ishmael, which is what BEGAN for all creation with the appearance of the firstborn Son. Refusal to follow all the principles contained in the provision, results in staying under the flesh of "mother" below, ie. stillborn. Blessings....
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 04:34:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (it is finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Then there will never be a manifestation of the sons of God, because it will always be NOW; unless you are saying that the Sons ARE being manifest NOW.
:cloud9: I don't think you understood what I said previously about Him appearing in the NOW. NOW is the twinking of an eye, the revelation from the Spirit that is outside the framework of time. So because it is not bound by time, it is always NOW in the Spirit. Blessings....
Quote from: Dallas on May 13, 2010, 03:20:37 AM
Quote"Even in my PHYSICAL body."
Now, you get it!
Right, even in this physical body I am the complete fulfillment of Christ, in all ways. My death or personal growth has absolutley no bearing on that.
I am complete, and perfected, lacking nothing, been blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavens.
This body stops nothing, why? Because Jesus' fulfillment was both physical and spiritual...NOT just spiritual.
Eph 4:12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,
Eph 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,
This is where the Lord has me. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 06:07:22 AM
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 04:34:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (it is finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Then there will never be a manifestation of the sons of God, because it will always be NOW; unless you are saying that the Sons ARE being manifest NOW.
:cloud9: I don't think you understood what I said previously about Him appearing in the NOW. NOW is the twinking of an eye, the revelation from the Spirit that is outside the framework of time. So because it is not bound by time, it is always NOW in the Spirit. Blessings....
but the NOW as written in the first century, was with "ishmaels" still present, and "isaacs" "few" coming forth (the era of pentacost). So tomorrow's NOW will still be the same, as so will a billion years from "NOW". There will never be a moving as you say, on to the tabernacles or manifestation of sons; because there will never be a fulfillment of the "whole body". It will always be an ongoing process, a few NOW, and many not NOW, just as the NOW was then.
yeah, maybe outside of time it IS fulfilled, but it will never happen in time. And Paul and gang used NOW to refer to that time, not "in the spiritual realm" imo.
probably not making any sense to anyone but me.
I understood you to say, that preterist view is wrong, because NOW is still happening. Well, whenever you say the NOW is not happening anymore (sons manifest, or tabernacles fulfilled); someone will come in and say your a preterist.
The "lake of fire," I believe one could call it God Fire, staying in step with Heb. 12:29
But the lake of fire is a place of purification, Rev.20:10 "lake of fire and brimstone"
Rev.10:14"lake of the fire--this is the second death;" I might ask when is the first death? And get varied answers. I like to believe that I am in the lake of fire and glad to be there, now and not later. Lake= G3041 a pond, from G3040 a harbor. Fire= G4442 is fire (note the Greek word is "pur" from which Briwe get our word "pure") Brimstone=G2303 is sulphur( a purifier;)from Gk word "theion" from G2304 Gk. word "theios" godlike, divinity, from G2316 Gk word "theos" the supreme Divinity. The way I understand all that is that that lake is a... harbor where God's Fire will refine (Mal.3:3) purge and purify (burn up wood, hay and stubble) in His vessels of honor. So I am happy and full of joy to be in the lake of fire now, To day... this is the second death; others will be drawn or dragged later.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Eph 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,
This is talking about one perfect man [comprised of many men]--the Christ. I never saw it that way before. :mshock:
[the] "unity"
G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520; oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
--Eph 4
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 01:51:59 AM
WE ARE!:
The abyss that contains no darkness!
WE ARE!:
The Lake of Fire!
You might be the lake of fire but not me. I'm not death, I'm life. And I'm in the book of life, not death.
Quote from: jabcat on May 13, 2010, 04:28:38 AM
Hi Dallas. I didn't call your name or single you out. However, we really are straying from "this is how I understand it" and getting into "you do this, you do that"...see what I mean? there's a difference. One way we're discussing, the other we're assigning motives, making judgments about each other's intent, etc....
We are also straying from the main topic which I started this whole thread out with.
Can we all look again at the first post of this thread and get back on topic?
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:52:01 AM
The "lake of fire," I believe one could call it God Fire, staying in step with Heb. 12:29
But the lake of fire is a place of purification, Rev.20:10 "lake of fire and brimstone"
Rev.10:14"lake of the fire--this is the second death;" I might ask when is the first death? And get varied answers. I like to believe that I am in the lake of fire and glad to be there, now and not later. Lake= G3041 a pond, from G3040 a harbor. Fire= G4442 is fire (note the Greek word is "pur" from which Briwe get our word "pure") Brimstone=G2303 is sulphur( a purifier;)from Gk word "theion" from G2304 Gk. word "theios" godlike, divinity, from G2316 Gk word "theos" the supreme Divinity. The way I understand all that is that that lake is a... harbor where God's Fire will refine (Mal.3:3) purge and purify (burn up wood, hay and stubble) in His vessels of honor. So I am happy and full of joy to be in the lake of fire now, To day... this is the second death; others will be drawn or dragged later.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
But Micah, I thought you were in Christ. Is Christ the lake of fire? Is He not in the book of life? Is He unsaved? Does He need purified?
Nowhere does the Bible say the lake of fire purifies anyone. Only Jesus makes people accpetable to God. All mankind will be headed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:9) and so will be justified, reconciled to God and perfect.
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
--Ex 3
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
--Mal 3
"This is talking about one perfect man [comprised of many men]--the Christ. I never saw it that way before."
Wonderful, Molly, He is wonderful.
Come Lord Jesus,Come.
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 04:36:43 PM
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
--Mal 3
The day of His coming is 1000 years before the lake of fire comes into play.
Also it doesn't say He is a refiner's fire or He is soap. The words "like" and "as" show it is a metaphor.
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
--Ex 3
Molly, this thread is about the lake of fire, the second death. What you postesd above has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.QuoteAlso it doesn't say He is a refiner's fire or He is soap. The words "like" and "as" show it is a metaphor.
Yes, it's a kind of fire that won't consume a common bush.
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 05:22:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 04:36:43 PM
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
--Mal 3
The day of His coming is 1000 years before the lake of fire comes into play.
Also it doesn't say He is a refiner's fire or He is soap. The words "like" and "as" show it is a metaphor.
So is lake of fire
"But Micah, I thought you were in Christ. Is Christ the lake of fire? Is He not in the book of life? Is He unsaved? Does He need purified?"
I am. Yes. I/we are the book of life.
The last two questions are silly.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
"But Micah, I thought you were in Christ. Is Christ the lake of fire? Is He not in the book of life? Is He unsaved? Does He need purified?"
I am. Yes. I/we are the book of life.
The last two questions are silly.
The last two questions are not silly really.
If you are in Christ you would not be in the lake of fire.
Christ is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
If Christ is in the book of life He would not be in the lake of fire and neither would you be since you are in Christ.
QuoteChrist is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
Do you think the lake of fire is annihilation?
Quote from: jabcat on May 13, 2010, 12:35:10 AM
C, do you think some of it could have dual/multiple fulfillment? And if so, then the challenge is knowing which and how....
It is possible. A lot of the Bible has a dual, multiple fulfillment. John did see things which was, which are, and things that would be. Whether all things "that will be" happened in John's day, I do not know. I think that most of it did happen in John's day, whether it will be repeated is another question.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
QuoteChrist is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
Do you think the lake of fire is annihilation?
It is said to be death. Death is the absence of life.
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 05:51:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
"But Micah, I thought you were in Christ. Is Christ the lake of fire? Is He not in the book of life? Is He unsaved? Does He need purified?"
I am. Yes. I/we are the book of life.
The last two questions are silly.
The last two questions are not silly really.
If you are in Christ you would not be in the lake of fire.
Christ is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
If Christ is in the book of life He would not be in the lake of fire and neither would you be since you are in Christ.
Why are you so negative about the lake of fire?
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
QuoteChrist is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
Do you think the lake of fire is annihilation?
It is said to be death. Death is the absence of life.
Before you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
It is said to be death. Death is the absence of life.
Or the birth of new life...
The death of what?
What if the fire just means death to the other sinful shell; and the good part is preserved/revealed?
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 06:44:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
QuoteChrist is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
Do you think the lake of fire is annihilation?
It is said to be death. Death is the absence of life.
Before you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
Before you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
[/quote]
Not all who die go through the lake of fire. For instance, everyone dies the first death which is not the lake of fire. The second death is the lake of fire.
The people who died the 1st death are later resurrected to enter the lake of fire which is their second death.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:45:28 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 05:51:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
"But Micah, I thought you were in Christ. Is Christ the lake of fire? Is He not in the book of life? Is He unsaved? Does He need purified?"
I am. Yes. I/we are the book of life.
The last two questions are silly.
The last two questions are not silly really.
If you are in Christ you would not be in the lake of fire.
Christ is not the lake of fire. Christ is life, not death.
If Christ is in the book of life He would not be in the lake of fire and neither would you be since you are in Christ.
Why are you so negative about the lake of fire?
Why do you think being inquisitive about what people believe about the lake of fire is negative?
Quote from: Tony N on May 13, 2010, 03:23:42 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 01:51:59 AM
WE ARE!:
The abyss that contains no darkness!
WE ARE!:
The Lake of Fire!
You might be the lake of fire but not me. I'm not death, I'm life. And I'm in the book of life, not death.
My understanding is, the grave, or death and the spiritually dead are the one's that go into the lake of fire. This is the death of all death, physical and spiritual. I believe when we become as Paul was we have already experienced the lake of fire and second death. Paul was dead to sin and alive in Christ. He claimed no works of his own. He was dead to the law. (Rom. 6:11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (2Cor. 4:16) For which cause we faint not: but though our OUTWARD MAN PERISH, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
I believe our outward man must perish, this is the second death.
CHB
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:51:29 PMBefore you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
ASVMat 3:12 ASV Matthew 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Note that the wheat
and the chaff are from one plant.
A good read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm
Brother Preston's anointed pen writes beautifully.
He answers thoughtful letters sent through traditional mail.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2010, 07:01:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:51:29 PMBefore you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
ASVMat 3:12 ASV Matthew 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Note that the wheat and the chaff are from one plant.
Yes that is true but the Holy Ghost and Fire is the threshing instrument He seperates.
Quote from: TonyNot all who die go through the lake of fire.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.--Rom 6
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 06:16:14 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 06:07:22 AM
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 04:34:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (it is finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Then there will never be a manifestation of the sons of God, because it will always be NOW; unless you are saying that the Sons ARE being manifest NOW.
:cloud9: I don't think you understood what I said previously about Him appearing in the NOW. NOW is the twinking of an eye, the revelation from the Spirit that is outside the framework of time. So because it is not bound by time, it is always NOW in the Spirit. Blessings....
but the NOW as written in the first century, was with "ishmaels" still present, and "isaacs" "few" coming forth (the era of pentacost). So tomorrow's NOW will still be the same, as so will a billion years from "NOW". There will never be a moving as you say, on to the tabernacles or manifestation of sons; because there will never be a fulfillment of the "whole body". It will always be an ongoing process, a few NOW, and many not NOW, just as the NOW was then.
yeah, maybe outside of time it IS fulfilled, but it will never happen in time. And Paul and gang used NOW to refer to that time, not "in the spiritual realm" imo.
probably not making any sense to anyone but me.
I understood you to say, that preterist view is wrong, because NOW is still happening. Well, whenever you say the NOW is not happening anymore (sons manifest, or tabernacles fulfilled); someone will come in and say your a preterist.
:cloud9: [I disagree with the preterist view as I understand it] because it encourages people to think all is done and they should just sit on their laurels and wait to die a natural death and go on to "glory", instead of, He did it for us, BUT we have to press in to appropriate all that was done, by the dying to self. It is the epitome of faith without works. Christ in us, is the glory waiting to be revealed.
It essentially, as the thief on the cross, tries to bypass the work of the cross by claiming it is all already done, so take yourself down if you be the son of God. It was done IN Him before He ever went to the natural cross, and there is an inner working that should be going on in us as well. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2010, 07:34:25 PM
Quote from: TonyNot all who die go through the lake of fire.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
--Rom 6
And Judas hung himself. Now can we get back to the lake of fire topic? :)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 13, 2010, 07:14:34 PM
A good read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm
Brother Preston's anointed pen writes beautifully.
He answers thoughtful letters sent through traditional mail.
Yes it is indeed. :thumbsup:
Also, from your explanation of preterism it's quite obvious you don't understand it.
:cloud9: There's nothing wrong with my language (and if there is, Jab, feel free to reprimand me) and just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'm not free to state my opinion, too.
I will not publicly discuss the reason for your being reprimanded on the board; you need to PRIVATELY take that up with Jab, as per forum rules.
As for me not understanding it, I've read enough posts around here from various ones to know what it is. Blessings....
QuoteAs for me not understanding it, I've read enough posts around here from various ones to know what it is. Blessings....
I'm telling you staright forward, from what you posted that doesnt not in any way represent was preterism is. Either partial or full-preterism or even pantelism for that matter.
And since there is nothing that was out of line with that language than I will use the same.
:cloud9: Ok Dallas, then inform me.......Blessings....
Quote from: Dallas on May 14, 2010, 03:02:27 AM
And since there is nothing that was out of line with that language than I will use the same.
Please don't. Thanks.
I think we can continue on topic. Or if need be, we can split this off to a Preterist/Futurist (?) thread perhaps?
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 06:16:14 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 06:07:22 AM
Quote from: Zeek on May 13, 2010, 04:34:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 13, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: :cloud9: So we should swallow the full preterist view instead?
There were two thieves on either side of THE cross. One wanted Him to come down (it is finished BEFORE the death to self) if He be the son of God, and the other wanted Him to remember Him WHEN He came into His kingdom (He was ALREADY King).
One is too soon (preterists), the other too late (let me die to inherit), but the Truth dwells directly in the middle, the NOW is the day of your salvation.
He is in the NOW, ie. whatever revelation He brings to you to conform you into the image of the Son in the NOW, that is the twinkling of an eye (speaks of understanding by illumination of the Spirit/light) by which we are changed from glory terrestrial (natural fleshly understanding) to glory celestial (spiritual understanding from the mind of Christ).
And since the sons of God are Christ in His many-membered body, and since God's Word cannot lie, He WILL have a body He can lay His head (FULL authority) on. Blessings....
Then there will never be a manifestation of the sons of God, because it will always be NOW; unless you are saying that the Sons ARE being manifest NOW.
:cloud9: I don't think you understood what I said previously about Him appearing in the NOW. NOW is the twinking of an eye, the revelation from the Spirit that is outside the framework of time. So because it is not bound by time, it is always NOW in the Spirit. Blessings....
but the NOW as written in the first century, was with "ishmaels" still present, and "isaacs" "few" coming forth (the era of pentacost). So tomorrow's NOW will still be the same, as so will a billion years from "NOW". There will never be a moving as you say, on to the tabernacles or manifestation of sons; because there will never be a fulfillment of the "whole body". It will always be an ongoing process, a few NOW, and many not NOW, just as the NOW was then.
yeah, maybe outside of time it IS fulfilled, but it will never happen in time. And Paul and gang used NOW to refer to that time, not "in the spiritual realm" imo.
probably not making any sense to anyone but me.
I understood you to say, that preterist view is wrong, because NOW is still happening. Well, whenever you say the NOW is not happening anymore (sons manifest, or tabernacles fulfilled); someone will come in and say your a preterist.
:cloud9: [I disagree with the preterist view as I understand it] because it encourages people to think all is done and they should just sit on their laurels and wait to die a natural death and go on to "glory", instead of, He did it for us, BUT we have to press in to appropriate all that was done, by the dying to self. It is the epitome of faith without works. Christ in us, is the glory waiting to be revealed.
It essentially, as the thief on the cross, tries to bypass the work of the cross by claiming it is all already done, so take yourself down if you be the son of God. It was done IN Him before He ever went to the natural cross, and there is an inner working that should be going on in us as well. Blessings....
Dont know much about these "ists" and dont want to. Liked your answer :thumbsup: Okay.. were I an "ists" I would be CHRISTS!
Edit
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 07:29:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 13, 2010, 07:01:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 13, 2010, 06:51:29 PMBefore you can have life you must die. The lake of fire only burns up, annialates the wood, hay and stubble, the dross, the stuff that Father does not want. It is Christ in me the hope of glory, the only way to that glory is by God fire. Matt.3:11 Lu. 3:16
ASVMat 3:12 ASV Matthew 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Note that the wheat and the chaff are from one plant.
Yes that is true but the Holy Ghost and Fire is the threshing instrument He seperates.
I agree. Let me start I still haven't fully worked it out for myself so I take the liberty of having another opinion in a hour :winkgrin:
Possibly the second death is the permanent destuction of the chaff. The sinful part of the plant called mankind. That would mean the second death isn't death of the whole body. Or should I say mind?
[quote author=WhiteWings link=topic=8145.msg96050#msg96050 I agree. Let me start I still haven't fully worked it out for myself so I take the liberty of having another opinion in a hour :winkgrin:
[/quote]
:cloud9: :laughing7:
O.K. some of you believe you are the lake of fire.
Some of you believe God is the lake of fire.
I believe neither we nor God is the lake of fire since it is said to be death. Jesus said He is life and the light of man.
I take it that some of you believe the lake of fire has a dual purpose.
Some of you believe that when the Scriptures state that He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire that that means the lake of fire (even though that takes place as the 1000 year kingdom on earth is beginning and the lake of fire comes 1000 years later).
So I see there is a lot of confusion as to what the lake of fire is.
First of all we need to see what the Bible says the lake of fire is, believe that, then go from there.
What does the Bible specifically say the lake of fire is? Any answers?
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Very Good Micah!
It is a Biblical fact that when the Bible says "this is that" that the "that" can't be made into another thing.
Once the figure of speech has been explained such as "the lake of fire" and the explanation of what it is is the second death, we are not supposed to make "the second death" mean something other than what the second death is. It is its own explanation.
As soon as it fits with the topic - not to sidetrack the discussion, but dovetail into it - Tony, micah, anyone, how do you think scripture defines the second death? Since the LOF is the second death, what does it look like and what exactly would you say it accomplishes? "Just" no more death, i.e., "eternity", or something else connected to that?
(I've come to believe the process is spiritual, yet has both spiritual AND literal results - but I'd probably have a hard time explaining it in great detail.) :thinking:
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
"lake" [of fire]
G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040
λιμήν
limēn
lee-mane'
Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.
Ron
The second death is judgment G2920
krisis(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
damnation G2917
krima
From G2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ["crime"]): - avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.G2919 krinō
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Quote from: gregoryfl on May 15, 2010, 05:52:54 AM
You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.
Ron
Where in Daniel 7? I must have overlooked it or I am reading it wrong. Thanks
Thanks micah. What do you think about death and the grave's involvement - being cast into it? Death and the grave cast into judgment? Or using another part of your definition, cast into "a decision made" about them?
why is it a lake [pond]--such a small place--if so many people are going to end up there? why not 'the ocean of fire'? also, the implication of a harbor or haven implies a safe place, although even harbors can get nasty under certain conditions--but generally a boat will pull into a harbor for safety.
and, why not the canyon of fire or the desert of fire? why water?
we have the gulf of fire going on now--just the top layer burns.
When it says, "This is the second death", it may not mean the lake of fire is the second death in itself. It may mean the lake of fire is effecting the second death upon all that are cast into it.
In other words
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The "having their part in" in experiencing the second judgment, being a death experience of another kind. DEATH BEING A TERMINATION OF THE PURSUIT OF ONES OWN WILL. The second death may be a termination of another sort, bringing one to the end of ones own will by the penetrating light (light is fire to darkness 1 Cor 3:13) of the Day.
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)
It is written that everything that is brought to the light becomes light. The fire/light/day will consume the hiding places, the veils, the towers, the strongholds, the rationals of the wisdom from below that is earthly sensual, demonic. It is given man once to die, then judgment. The eyes of Christ are as flames of fire in John's vision, and the writer of Hebrews says all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. He has a sword coming out of His mouth and that sword divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Maybe the lake of fire is a specific experience of krisis- discernment- exposure that will end in the bowing of the knee and the confession of the tongue in those who are purged within it. The love of God like a blow torch upon the darkness till all is light and God, who is light and who is a consuming fire, and who is love- becomes all in all as the adversaries crumble n the presence of His awesomeness.
I am just presenting this as food for thought, not as a doctrine.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 15, 2010, 07:06:52 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on May 15, 2010, 05:52:54 AM
You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.
Ron
Where in Daniel 7? I must have overlooked it or I am reading it wrong. Thanks
I will provide what I see to be the same event being written about, according to topic. Here is Daniel's account:
ancient of days sat: his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and
came forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I saw at that time because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke; I saw even until the beast was slain, and its body destroyed, and it was given to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the animals, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
And now here is John's account:
Rev 19:20 The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of firethat burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh...
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The only time in scripture that reference is made to books used for judgment before a throne is in these 2 places, which leads me to believe Daniel and John are seeing the same event, with different nuances. One thing I note is that the fire into which the beast is thrown in Daniel's account has it's source from God himself. I surmise it is possible that God, as a consuming fire, is the source of the lake of fire into which anything not of God gets consumed, and anything which is of God remains.
Ron
Also, as an aside, I also find it interesting that the two statements concerning believers and the second death, namely, that it has no power over them (Rev 20:6) and that it does not hurt them (Rev 2:11), is only found in one other place in scripture, in Daniel's account of the 3 Hebrews thrown into the fire heated 7 times hotter than normal. They are said also to not be hurt by the fire (Dan 3:25), and that it did not have power over them (Dan 3:27). Thus I see through making these thematic connections that Daniel should be read along with Revelation as each compliments the other and shows things concerning the nature of the lake of fire.
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 07:07:29 AM
Thanks micah. What do you think about death and the grave's involvement - being cast into it? Death and the grave cast into judgment? Or using another part of your definition, cast into "a decision made" about them?
Death only has exsitence in who was alive, death is in the grave; so when one goes the other follows, I would say. And Peter said that judgment (decsions make) begin in the house of God. If we are alive in Him then we had to die, or as it reads in Gen.2:17 "dying thou dost die" and I like how Bob Dylan said it as well."if you aint busy being born, your busy dying."
Rom 8:13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;
I just believe that should I gain any understanding at all.....it is Spirit that is my "literal."
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 02:58:26 AM
As soon as it fits with the topic - not to sidetrack the discussion, but dovetail into it - Tony, micah, anyone, how do you think scripture defines the second death? Since the LOF is the second death, what does it look like and what exactly would you say it accomplishes? "Just" no more death, i.e., "eternity", or something else connected to that?
(I've come to believe the process is spiritual, yet has both spiritual AND literal results - but I'd probably have a hard time explaining it in great detail.) :thinking:
The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.
The second curtain, the second day, the second week, the second hour; these are literally what they are.
So since the first death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life, the second death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life.
I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes. Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF). I'm having trouble getting my mind around that :mblush:.
Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 06:16:09 PM
I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes. Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF). I'm having trouble getting my mind around that :mblush:.
Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:
2Co 3:7 But if the
ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which
glory was to be done away:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to
vanish away.
the death of covenental death. The END.
Hi Zeek. If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know. Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened? That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law? Thanks.
P.S. I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 06:29:45 PM
Hi Zeek. If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know. Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened? That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law? Thanks.
P.S. I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...
My thought is that the death of the
Old Covenant creature was the death of death.
The first creation had a place a standing (through types and figures). It however was destined to pass away. Those who were identified as "old creatures" would experience the second death. Their world came crashing down.
The first death imo, is sin or condemnation. The power of sin is the law. A relentless seeking for vindication of life which brought insecurity, and needing to prove something about ones self all the time and low self worth and low self esteem and always comparing ones self with someone else and trying to measure up or down, ECT.
The second death is the ending of the
status of the old creature.
IMO, that "creature" did pass away, and we are wakening up to that truth.
and this process now, can be looked at "inwardly"; but imo not to "bring in the NEW, but to realize what already is TRUTH. Relationship and love is what it is all about imo;
imo, there is no more "us versus them", chosen vs. not chosen, sons vs. bastards, "ishmaels vs. isaacs" other than through our own ignorance. There is UNITY, and we are all in this together; as we realize who we are. Ther is no "sons to be manifest", as we are all sons; opening our eyes at different times.
Imo, there are 1000's and 1000's of years ahead of humanity to awake to the Truth. It is a process of discovery and journey through relationship in our new world; not a process of creating a new one.
a process of waking up to the futility of thinking that we are separate.
Quote from: Tony N on May 15, 2010, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 02:58:26 AM
As soon as it fits with the topic - not to sidetrack the discussion, but dovetail into it - Tony, micah, anyone, how do you think scripture defines the second death? Since the LOF is the second death, what does it look like and what exactly would you say it accomplishes? "Just" no more death, i.e., "eternity", or something else connected to that?
(I've come to believe the process is spiritual, yet has both spiritual AND literal results - but I'd probably have a hard time explaining it in great detail.) :thinking:
The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.
The second curtain, the second day, the second week, the second hour; these are literally what they are.
So since the first death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life, the second death is a literal death in which there is a complete absence of life.
1Co 15:31
(ASV) I protest by that glorifying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
(KJV) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily
(WNT) I protest, brethren, as surely as I glory over you--which I may justly do in Christ Jesus our Lord--that I die day by day.
(YLT) Every day do I die, by the glorying of you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 06:16:09 PM
I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes. Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF). I'm having trouble getting my mind around that :mblush:.
Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:
Glory! 1Co 15:55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Quote from: Zeek on May 15, 2010, 06:44:23 PM
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 06:29:45 PM
Hi Zeek. If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, let me know. Are you saying you believe the LOF already happened? That the LOF was the end of basically, the age of law? Thanks.
P.S. I know there are different views on it...for instance, I believe Brother Willi understands the LOF to be now...
My thought is that the death of the Old Covenant creature was the death of death.
The first creation had a place a standing (through types and figures). It however was destined to pass away. Those who were identified as "old creatures" would experience the second death. Their world came crashing down.
The first death imo, is sin or condemnation. The power of sin is the law. A relentless seeking for vindication of life which brought insecurity, and needing to prove something about ones self all the time and low self worth and low self esteem and always comparing ones self with someone else and trying to measure up or down, ECT.
The second death is the ending of the status of the old creature.
IMO, that "creature" did pass away, and we are wakening up to that truth.
and this process now, can be looked at "inwardly"; but imo not to "bring in the NEW, but to realize what already is TRUTH. Relationship and love is what it is all about imo;
imo, there is no more "us versus them", chosen vs. not chosen, sons vs. bastards, "ishmaels vs. isaacs" other than through our own ignorance. There is UNITY, and we are all in this together; as we realize who we are. Ther is no "sons to be manifest", as we are all sons; opening our eyes at different times.
Imo, there are 1000's and 1000's of years ahead of humanity to awake to the Truth. It is a process of discovery and journey through relationship in our new world; not a process of creating a new one.
Hi Zeek,
Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right?
Don't we all still have a little of that same creature in us? What I mean is, we all to some extent have a feeling of we are in control of things. We all think that there are things we are, or should be doing to have a right standing with God. Most feel there is some kind of law that we need to do. Isn't this a continuation of the same thing just not on the bigger scale as the law of Moses. Will not these things need to be burned out of us all? It isn't just Israel who has a problem with letting go of the old laws, most of humanity are still in it's grip.
I guess what I am saying is, the veil is still there over most peoples eyes.
Hope I explained this well enough so you can understand what I am saying?
The 1000's and 1000's of years ahead is what I am concerned about.
CHB
I would have some of the same thoughts/questions C. I believe many things have been fulfilled, some have multiple/ongoing fulfillment, and some future - yet to occur. Within the constraints of language, I still see the Lake of Fire as a "future event, eminating from God". :2c:
Jesus, in his day, referred to dead people as 'sleeping,' and living people as 'dead.'
If dead people are just sleeping, they are not dead in the sense of ceasing to exist. However, it would give that impression.
If living people are dead, they are not alive in the sense of awake and aware. However, it would give that impression.
So, the reality is not always what it appears, nor is it always manifested.
The ministration of death of the Old Covenant did not always succeed 100 percent in its day, nor has it gone away 100 percent yet, and people still delight in creating more and more draconian laws in hopes of shutting up the kingdom to everyone possible.
We are still waiting for the seventh trump of Revelation, IMO.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
--Rev 11
Here is something I found interesting. Maybe the Dead Sea is where the lof is. http://bibleencyclopedia.com/lake.htm
jabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.
Molly,
Very interesting post, makes sense.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on May 15, 2010, 08:27:51 PMJesus, in his day, referred to dead people as 'sleeping,' and living people as 'dead.'
He (also) descibed dead people active and alive.
The dead is only about spiritual dead/asleep.
KJVLuk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
People that burry are quite active. Unless they are sleep-digging... :grave:
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 10:45:33 PMjabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.
:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 15, 2010, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 10:45:33 PMjabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.
:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....
Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits? Is that here, yet? He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago. He is the firstfruits of all of it. But are there others?
Somebody--was it eby?--claimed to be the Elijah ministry announcing them.
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon
DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!
Quote from: Molly on May 16, 2010, 12:19:11 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 15, 2010, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 10:45:33 PMjabcat, I agree with you that there are things to happen, I guess I just cannot see that all things are finished because I am still here in the flesh and people are still dying. I believe there will be an end of things as we know it somewhere in the future.
:cloud9: Exactly. The provision is there, but it has not been appropriated, and it won't be appropriated by all before the "end", because He never intended for it to. There is always a firstfruits in every move of God. Blessings....
Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits? Is that here, yet? He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago. He is the firstfruits of all of it. But are there others?
Somebody--was it eby?--claimed to be the Elijah ministry announcing them.
Right here....Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
Rom 8:17 and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ--if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.
Rom 8:23 And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting--the redemption of our body;
Rom 8:24 for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it ?
Rom 8:25 and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it .
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 16, 2010, 12:36:07 AM
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon
DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!
:thumbsup: :happy3: :thumbsup:
"When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9).
Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2010, 12:39:03 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 16, 2010, 12:36:07 AM
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon
DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!
:thumbsup: :happy3: :thumbsup:
:cloud9: I second that, Amen :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 16, 2010, 12:19:11 AMAre we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits? Is that here, yet? He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago. He is the firstfruits of all of it. But are there others?
:cloud9: Yes we are, and I believe it's in the works. He has to have a perfected body to lay His head on. No one yet has received FULL authority (head), only a taste of it.
I have experienced a taste of it, but it's not a 24/7 walking in it constantly as He did, reality yet, that I believe those that press in till the end, will receive. A taste is not going to bring in the final harvest. Blessings...
I expect it, too!
5 "And now glorify Thou Me, Father, with Thyself, with the glory which I had before the world is with Thee.
John 17
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 16, 2010, 12:36:07 AM
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon
DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!
Yes, that's good. Micah had mentioned the Greek word for brimstone, and I was arriving at the rest of it myself last night through first principles--but then my computer crashed.
"brimstone"G2303
θεῖον
theion
thi'-on
Probably
neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.
G2304
θεῖος
theiosthi'-os
From G2316;
godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): -
divine, godhead.G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding,
God, god [-ly, -ward].
brim·stone (brmstn)
n.
1. (Chemistry / Elements & Compounds) an obsolete name for sulphur
sulphur US, sulfur [ˈsʌlfə]
n
(Chemistry / Elements & Compounds)
a. an allotropic nonmetallic element, occurring free in volcanic regions and in combined state in gypsum, pyrite, and galena. The stable yellow rhombic form converts on heating to monoclinic needles. It is used in the production of sulphuric acid, in the vulcanization of rubber, and in fungicides. Symbol: S; atomic no.: 16; atomic wt.: 32.066; valency: 2, 4, or 6; relative density: 2.07 (rhombic), 1.957 (monoclinic); melting pt.: 115.22°C (rhombic), 119.0°C (monoclinic); boiling pt.: 444.674°C Related adj thionic
Verb 1.
sulphur -
treat with sulphur in order to preserve; "These dried fruits are sulphured"
sulfur
process, treat -
subject to a process or treatment, with the aim of readying for some purpose, improving, or remedying a condition; "process cheese"; "process hair"; "treat the water so it can be drunk"; "treat the lawn with chemicals" ; "treat an oil spill"
I Am the Light of the world —
— for our God is also a consuming fire.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 16, 2010, 12:54:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on May 16, 2010, 12:19:11 AMAre we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits? Is that here, yet? He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago. He is the firstfruits of all of it. But are there others?
:cloud9: Yes we are, and I believe it's in the works. He has to have a perfected body to lay His head on. No one yet has received FULL authority (head), only a taste of it.
I have experienced a taste of it, but it's not a 24/7 walking in it constantly as He did, reality yet, that I believe those that press in till the end, will receive. A taste is not going to bring in the final harvest. Blessings...
58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. --Luke 9
"
head"
G2776
κεφαλή
kephalēkef-al-ay'
Probably from the primary wordκάπτω kaptō
(in the sense of seizing); the head
(as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively: - head.
If I could be literal for a moment here, this verse seems to be saying there is no body to put his head on? And, the Greek word implies that the head is the easiest part of the body to be seized. So, one would tend to think, it's easier to attain the mind of Christ than to attain the resurrected body--and maybe his head will only rest on the resurrected body--but--
We know that's not the case because Paul tells us we have the mind of Christ now.
So, is it possible he is waiting for the right number to be sealed? Those firstfruits chosen from the foundation of the world? Waiting for all to be brought in as those Old Testament saints had to wait for us --
that they without us should not be made perfect [Heb 11]?
Is the body he is waiting for not one, but a group? Or what the Old testament would call a troop? And, all have to be sealed before the Son can rest his head on the body?
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
--Rev 9
21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.--Obadiah 1
:cloud9: Yes, it's a troop of overcomers. There are two "companies"; the bride company and the bridegroom company. The bridegroom company becomes one with the Head. Then they are sent out to "woo" the bride company, and bring them into the fullness.
The same thing happened with the 12 and they were as a "seed" planted for what is coming, a firstfruits offering. In any great move of God He has always worked with a firstfruits principle.
One of the companies is a firstfruits company, one is not, but both get the same reward. This is the parable of those that get the same wages as come in first, or in the 11th hour.
The fullness of Christ manifested is the reward. We do already have this "deposit" in our earthen vessels, but the manifestation is yet to come in fullness. That's why they got the EARNEST, or PORTION on the day of Pentecost. That means.....IT'S NOT FINISHED YET.
So those that think sonship is about exalting the flesh, couldn't be more wrong. We become as He is, a servant, and the Father's friend. Whoever would be greatest among you.......Blessings....
On the cross Jesus breathes His last, "It is finished". The last work is death. If any man would be my disciple, let him take up his cross, and come follow me. Enter the fellowship of His suffering.
In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus reckoned Himself dead, "Nevertheless not my will but yours"- His golden altar of incense before He entered through the veil of the flesh to become a high priest taken from among among men. We must, "reckon ourselves dead" in order to "enter within the veil" and become a part of the priesthood and be "caught up to His throne" and "come down out of the heavens" as a Bride prepared for the Bridegroom- built on the 12 foundation stones and in line with the chief cornerstone.
This is the reward of the overcomers- manifesting, "finishing", the will of God as partakers of the divine nature- placed as sons because of the free will offering of their bodies(life in the body offered up- Romans 12:1-3). If any man build on the foundation "wood, hay and stubble" the day will reveal it and the fire will consume the works of flesh(1 Cor 3:13-17) that pretended sonship, friendship and devotion (James 3:15-17). As for rewards, humbling oneself and releasing the sonship to become a servant and suffer death on a cross is the only way to receive the promises. As for the portion, the earnest- it is both the promise and the means of securing the purchased possession the redemption of our bodies. To live is Christ, to die is gain.
Can a nation be born in a day? I hope so. The faithful husbandmen labors patiently, over the seed, the shoot and the full grain- keeping the weeds down and awaiting the early and the latter rains.
"If any one overcome I will keep Him from the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the earth". Why? Because the one who has "reckoned himself dead" has "passed through the fire" and "walks in the light" of the "fellowship of His suffering" and need not fear the second death.
"Today if you here my voice harden not your heart." Enter the Sabbath, the finished work, cease from your own works, labor diligently to enter His rest, reckon yourself dead.
The son of the bondwoman always persecutes the son of the free woman......"Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing".
Quote from: Cardinal on May 16, 2010, 08:16:21 AM
:cloud9: Yes, it's a troop of overcomers. There are two "companies"; the bride company and the bridegroom company. The bridegroom company becomes one with the Head. Then they are sent out to "woo" the bride company, and bring them into the fullness.
The same thing happened with the 12 and they were as a "seed" planted for what is coming, a firstfruits offering. In any great move of God He has always worked with a firstfruits principle.
One of the companies is a firstfruits company, one is not, but both get the same reward. This is the parable of those that get the same wages as come in first, or in the 11th hour.
The fullness of Christ manifested is the reward. We do already have this "deposit" in our earthen vessels, but the manifestation is yet to come in fullness. That's why they got the EARNEST, or PORTION on the day of Pentecost. That means.....IT'S NOT FINISHED YET.
So those that think sonship is about exalting the flesh, couldn't be more wrong. We become as He is, a servant, and the Father's friend. Whoever would be greatest among you.......Blessings....
Molly I found this to be interesting in a study I was making on soul/spirit.
You referenced "servants" G1401=slaves.
the only time "slaves" is used is Rev. 18:13 and in Strongs "slaves" G4983(soma) which when followed I found that "save(d)" G4982(sozo) and "body" G4983(soma)
Body, slaves, and save(d) all I find very interesting. Peace... Just a thought
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP2nz6PG8KM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
Hi Zeek,
Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right?
CHB
Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.
The Adamic covenant:
Genesis 2
16 ¶ And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
The Mosaic law was "added to increase the trespass" (Romans 5:20)
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Amen, Amen and Amen.
Without the grace of God we would all be trapped in the law of sin and death.
Thanks be to Jesus who poured out eternal life unto all His Creation, forevermore.
For HE SO LOVES US, I could cry writing this.
He is jealous for me!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk
Quote from: Zeek on May 17, 2010, 05:59:29 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
Hi Zeek,
Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right?
CHB
Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.
Hi Zeek,
Would you mind commenting on the rest of my post please?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2010, 03:29:00 PM
Quote from: Zeek on May 17, 2010, 05:59:29 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
Hi Zeek,
Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right?
CHB
Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.
Hi Zeek,
Would you mind commenting on the rest of my post please?
CHB
The law worketh wrath.
Love has been revealed. I am in relationship with the Father. Love without condition. Growing through relationship. If growing implies "burning" to you, then ok with me. But lake of fire for me? absolutley Not.
Am I Adamic? NO
Hi Zeek,
I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
You said, "the second death is the ending of the status of the old creature and that creature did pass away. {my words here,-- as if it no longer exists} we are wakening up to that truth".
To which I replied:
Don't we all still have a little of that same creature in us? What I mean is, we all to some extent have a feeling of we are in control of things. We all think that there are things we are, or should be doing to have a right standing with God. Most feel there is some kind of law that we need to do. Isn't this a continuation of the same thing just not on the bigger scale as the law of Moses. Will not these things need to be burned out of us all? It isn't just Israel who has a problem with letting go of the old laws, most of humanity are still in it's grip.
The above is what I wanted you to respond to. You said the second death ended the status of the old creature but that same creature exists today, does it not? There hasn't been an end to that creature yet, has there?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2010, 05:23:26 PM
There hasn't been an end to that creature yet, has there?
CHB
There has been an end to that creature.
I understand this view is not accepted here much, and i've seen the arguments go round and round; but pm if you'd like to discuss this more.
blessings.
this thread covers many of the thoughts I have, similar to poster "barry"
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7326.0
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2010, 06:16:09 PM
I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes. Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF). I'm having trouble getting my mind around that :mblush:.
Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:
That is what is called a metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.
Likewise, "God so loves the world" where "world" is a metonomy for "all the people of the world."
So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire.
Death is still in force during the new earth age.
Quote Tony - "That is what is called a
metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "
Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.
So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire." - End Quote
I understand this is all our own individual understandings/opinions (and obviously a difficult topic since there are probably hundreds of POVs) but how would you then personally see the above understandings coming together with this previous post? Thanks.
Quote from: Tony N on May 15, 2010, 01:40:52 PM
The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.
..these are literally what they are.
Quote from: jabcat on May 17, 2010, 10:00:43 PM
Quote Tony - "That is what is called a metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.
So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire." - End Quote
I understand this is all our own individual understandings/opinions (and obviously a difficult topic since there are probably hundreds of POVs) but how would you then personally see the above understandings coming together with this previous post? Thanks.
Quote from: Tony N on May 15, 2010, 01:40:52 PM
The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.
..these are literally what they are.
It just means what it means. The bible says "The lake of fire is the second death." So we know that the second death cannot be a metaphor for something else on top of the metaphor it already stands for.
Since it literally is the secon death and since those of death and hades are cast into that death it is a cessasion of life for them.
So death and hades stands for those held by them.
The lake of fire is the second death.
This cannot be the death of death mainly because the death of death does not come util all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled and Christ quits reigning and all those held by death come back to life. Then will death be abolished as 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 says. Paul goes way beyond John's revelation.
:thumbsup:
Looking out on the web, I see there's quite a strong following of the suggestion that "death and hades" is a metonymy (describing individuals being contained within those things) - though many also believe it means death and the grave itself - literally. I understand your point Tony that death itself is not completely destroyed until the consummation/God all in all, because many will then be coming to life.
Interestingly, Wikipedia now has the following;
A commonly accepted and traditional interpretation is that the "lake of fire" and the "second death" are symbolic of eternal pain, pain of loss and perhaps pain of the senses, as punishment for wickedness.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]
Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the "lake of fire" and "second death" of the Book of Revelation as referring to a complete and definitive annihilation of those cast into it.[16]
Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia
Quote from: jabcat on May 18, 2010, 01:37:23 AM
Looking out on the web, I see there's quite a strong following of the suggestion that "death and hades" is a metonymy (describing individuals being contained within those things) - though many also believe it means death and the grave itself - literally. I understand your point Tony that death itself is not completely destroyed until the consummation/God all in all, because many will then be coming to life.
Interestingly, Wikipedia now has the following;
A commonly accepted and traditional interpretation is that the "lake of fire" and the "second death" are symbolic of eternal pain, pain of loss and perhaps pain of the senses, as punishment for wickedness.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]
Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the "lake of fire" and "second death" of the Book of Revelation as referring to a complete and definitive annihilation of those cast into it.[16]
Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia
According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."
There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.
Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is refining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.
But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.
Quote from: TonyThere is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.
But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.
Well, not precisely. The lake of fire is the second death.
...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.--Rev 21:8
So the first death didn't get the job done? Obviously, dead is not dead, if you get my drift. lol
Ezekiel 37:4
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."
There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.
Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is revining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.
But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.
Let's not quibble over semantics; a word can have several meanings or linguistic expressions.
"Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory."
Quote from: peacemaker on May 18, 2010, 08:28:02 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."
There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.
Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is revining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.
But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.
Let's not quibble over semantics; a word can have several meanings or linguistic expressions.
"Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory."
No, actually, let's do quibble over semantics for it is by semantics that the truth concerning figures of speech and their meaning is established or destroyed. To be ignorant of or to resist semantics is to try to establish what a person wants something to be in order to prop up their own paradigm. Semantics makes everyone play the same game fairly.
You quote: "Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory." as if that settles the whole issue. But what you have done is you have brought in another set of issues which now must be dealt with rather than keeping to the original issue as to figures of speech and their meaning of what is not a figure.
So how is death to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory? As long as anyone is in death, the shout of victory in the verse you quote in 1 Corinthians 15:54 will not be shouted.
The only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).
So getting back to the main issue: What is the lake of fire? It is literally death. What is death? Death is the cessation of all life.
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2010, 05:41:49 AM
Quote from: TonyThere is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.
But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.
QuoteMolly replied: Well, not precisely. The lake of fire is the second death.
Tony's reply: Hi Molly, I don't know why you say "Well, not precisely. The lake of fire is the second death" is if that disproves what I wrote above. The truth of the matter is that there really is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life. How is that "not precisely"? And how does your saying "The lake of fire is the second death" make what I said "not precisely"?
QuoteMolly wrote: ...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--Rev 21:8
So the first death didn't get the job done? Obviously, dead is not dead, if you get my drift. lol
Tony's reply: Then you quote Revelation 21:8 and say: "Obviously, dead is not dead." No, I don't get your drift. And why do you say the first death didn't get the job done? Obviously it did because God wanted mankind to experience an actual death state due to what Adam did. Or are you saying God failed in His goal concerning bringing death into mankind?
QuoteMolly wrote: Ezekiel 37:4
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Tony's reply: So do those bones automatically sprout ears so they can hear or is this highly figurative language?
Quote from: TonyThe only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).
Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought you were saying the lake of fire was the end.
I assume I am understanding correctly now that you are also saying there is nothing but unconsciousness in the second death. Except--
Jesus likens the first death to sleep--something which we've all done. And, sleep is not exactly unconsciousness, as people maintain a very active dream life [REM] during sleep.
As to what goes on in the lake of fire--does this relate?
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
This doesn't really sound like unconsciousness, either, since the use of the word, 'torment.'
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)
Hi Tony,
The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?
If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?
It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.
The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.
CHB
From my limited perspective on the LOF.....
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)
Seems to me like the verses in Philippians and the the verse in Revelations 5:13 are connected with Eph 1:10(summing up all things in Christ), Eph 4:10(Christ ascending above all things in order to fill all things), 1 Cor 15:25-27(all things subjected to Christ), and likely 1 Cor 3:12-17(testing of every man's work by the fire of 'the Day')
Since the last enemy is death, and it is cast into the LOF, then whatever the LOF represents it seems to be the last stage in the "summing up of all things" into Christ that God may be "all in all", and likely plays a part for some in the ultimate bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord(which John sees in Rv 5:13).
I think the LOF is like being dipped, with no veil, into unapproachable light, until all darkness (like straw before a flame) is consumed by overwhelming glory- for God is light, God is a consuming fire, God is love. Literally, I believe the heart is won over to love as the constructs of self, separation and chaos crumble before "the radiance of the Fathers glory"(He 1:1-3). Perhaps this is the ruination(appolumi/apolea) of the adversaries on an individual level
His face shines like the sun shining in His strength(Let there be light, dawn devours night) Mt 7:12, Rv 1:16
For even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing (apollumi), in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.....
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:3-6)
......every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him(Rev 1:7).... and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb (Rv 6:16)
"Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" and "How shall you escape Gehenna fire?", make sense to me in that light. Better to pluck out your eye than to enter Gehenna to be pierced by inscrutable light, for all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, whose eyes are as flames of fire. I think Gehenna is a symbol for the LOF.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting(olam/aionian) burnings?
His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
(Rev 1:14-16)
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
I am He that tries the reins(motives) and the hearts.
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
(Act 2:37)
Piercing is apart of the revelation of Jesus Christ. "Let there be Light"- piercing the chaos to separate light from darkness. "BEHOLD(let there be light, veil removal) I AM(the radiance of the Fathers glory, the image of God, the fulness of the godhead in bodily form) MAKING (transformation through beholding 2 Cor 3:18) ALL THINGS NEW(the whole creation... eagerly awaits....the glorious liberty of the sons of God).
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment(tribunal) and destruction(apolea) of ungodly men.
(2Pe 3:7)
If this particular apolea/ ruination occurs in the LOF it is an experience that the overcomers in Christ will by-pass(Rv 3:10; Rv 20:6)
Also, all those whose names are found written in the Lambs book of life- which includes all those from all the ages who, having the law of God written on their hearts, will be approved by their own conscience on the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ.
I think as "death" was the first consequence/penalty for sin, the LOF is the second death-i.e. second consequence- in that it consumes the adversaries till all be subjected who did not receive the image of God written in the secret core of their hearts.
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:13)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2010, 03:01:48 PM
Quote from: TonyThe only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).
Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought you were saying the lake of fire was the end.
I assume I am understanding correctly now that you are also saying there is nothing but unconsciousness in the second death. Except--
Jesus likens the first death to sleep--something which we've all done. And, sleep is not exactly unconsciousness, as people maintain a very active dream life [REM] during sleep.
As to what goes on in the lake of fire--does this relate?
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
This doesn't really sound like unconsciousness, either, since the use of the word, 'torment.'
Hi Molly, you are correct it doesn't sound like unconsciousness if you go only by that verse alone. If you take all the verses related to the destruction of Babylon which is destroyed in a day, then we see they are tormented that day and that day only as their demise is met by fire and brimstone like Sodom and Gomorrah's fate. They are not in the lake of fire at that point in time. They have not been brought before the great white throne yet. It is after the GWT they are throne into the lake of fire whch is death.
Jesus likens death to sleep.
DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP
There are two kinds of figures used in comparing death with
sleep. The one we have been considering is a metaphor, for the
dead are said to {be} sleeping. How much more vivid is this than
to use a simile and say merely that death is like sleep! Yet
there is even a bolder figure. It is called "implication." Death
is not said to be like sleep as in the simile, or to be sleep
as in the metaphor, but it is implied when the dead are
roused.* A.E. Knoch
The Lord said Lazarus was asleep but he was dead four days and stunk.
In what way was he asleep? Was he dreaming? No. He was brain dead.
A. E. Knoch continues:
"THE "REPOSE" OF DEATH
"The term
koimaoo, repose, which is used of Lazarus, is a
figure of death in fourteen out of its eighteen occurrences. The
bodies of saints which were roused after our Lord's resurrection
(Matt.27:52), Lazarus (John 11:11), Stephen (Acts 7:60), David
(Acts 13:36), the husband (1 Cor.7:39), the careless Corinthians
(1 Cor.11:30), the witnesses of His resurrection (1 Cor.15:6),
the dead saints (1 Cor.15:18,20,51; 1 Thess.4:13,14, 15), and the
patriarchs (2 Peter 3:4)--in all these passages the reference is
not to such repose as is enjoyed in literal sleep, but to the
repose of death.
"This figure, of
reposing in death, is varied somewhat in
the Hebrew Scriptures, yet it is sufficiently close for the A.V.
to have the phrase, "And...
slept with his fathers" (2 Kings
8:24; 10:35; 13:9,13; 14:16,29; 15:7,22,38; 16:20; 21:18; 24:6,
etc.). The Hebrew word used
p137 Repose Means Sleep
in these passages is
shkb, and it means Lie. In the Septuagint,
it is translated by means of the Greek word which we have rendered
repose. The phrase of the Hebrew should read, "And... lies with
his fathers." While it primarily means to lie down (1 Sam.3:5,6,
9), the actual Hebrew word for sleep
shne is used as though
parallel to lie down
shkd (See Psa,3:5; Prov.6:10; 24: 33).
" In the Greek, our Lord could say, "Lazarus, our friend, has
found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of
sleep." And the disciples demurred, thinking that it would be a
pity to wake him out of the repose of sleep, which is so
beneficial in case of sickness. The soldiers assigned to guard the
tomb would have no excuse at all for allowing the Lord's body to
be stolen while they were
resting. They must have meant while
they were reposing in sleep, and so the A.V. translators have
rendered it "while (they) slept" (Matt.28:13). When Jesus
returned from His place of prayer, He found His weary disciples
reposing for sorrow, and He asked them, "Why are you {drowsing}"
(Luke 22:46)? The remaining occurrence (Acts 12:6) proves
conclusively that we must take "repose" in the sense of sleep.
Peter's repose was broken when the messenger ("angel")
awoke or
roused him.
"From these facts we are sure that sleep is a picture of
death. Metaphorically, death is said to be sleep, and, by
implication, awakening out of the oblivion of sleep is transferred
to the death state."
Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Hi Tony,
The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?
The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.
QuoteIf we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?
I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?
QuoteIt says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.
Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?
QuoteThe only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.
CHB
My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.
[/quote]
In my above post I said this:
"It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life".
I should have added that the lake of fire is not death but an awakening to spiritual life. It is a place where all literal death is destroyed and the spiritual dead are awakened to a new spiritual life, where they all will be in Christ.
If you compare (Rev. 21:8) with (1Cor. 6:9) (Gal. 5:19) (Eph. 5:5), it sounds like God is going to cleanse everyone and make them perfect through the lake of fire.
(Eph. 5:26-27) That he might SANCTIFY AND CLEANSE IT WITH THE WASHING OF WATER {could this be a lake}BY THE WORD {and this fire}. (Jer.
(Verse 27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, NOT HAVING SPOT OR WRINKLE, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
CHB
CHB, you call the lake of fire "spiritual life." The bible calls the lake of fire death. Why should I believe you?
Even in the Bible the metaphorical "dead," the ones dead to God, are not having a "spiritual life."
Let's stay with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. You can't make "death" to be "spiritual life."
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 08:21:22 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Hi Tony,
The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?
The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.
Tony are you saying, God is going to raise people from the dead, burn them up, then raise them again? When they are raised a second time what happens?
Tony, why would God bring people back to life just to burn them, wouldn't it be better to teach them?
QuoteIf we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?
Quote from: Tony N
I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?
The spiritual death I am talking about is being dead to sin and alive in Christ. I feel I am at this point now. If they are in Christ how could they be oblivious to him?
QuoteIt says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.
Quote from: Tony N
Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?
I did say that the lake of fire will be active till the end. Well, my idea of a first death is when we literally die and are buried in the ground. The way I understand this is, at the end physical death will be destroyed and those who are spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ.
QuoteThe only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.
CHB
My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Spiritual fire is light. It burns/consumes/destroys darkness.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(1Co 3:13)
each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident(expose it), for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."
(1Co 3:13)CLV
Mat 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
(2Pe 3:7)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheon- elementary principles ) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:13)
"I think the LOF is like being dipped, with no veil, into unapproachable light, until all darkness (like straw before a flame) is consumed by overwhelming glory- for God is light, God is a consuming fire, God is love. Literally, I believe the heart is won over to love as the constructs of self, separation and chaos crumble before "the radiance of the Fathers glory"(He 1:1-3).
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 01:55:25 PM
Peacemaker You quote: "Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory" as if that settles the whole issue.
For me, it does. Unless, your perception is that of a literal thousand year reign in which there will be a second resurr-exit from a second literal death. Use a good dictionary, and you may find a subtle difference or distinction in expression of "again" as meaning "anew" without the concept of repetition.
"When one is raised to life; it destroys the elements of death."
Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2010, 09:15:57 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 08:21:22 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Hi Tony,
The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?
Tony's reply: The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.
QuoteCHB replied: Tony are you saying, God is going to raise people from the dead, burn them up, then raise them again? When they are raised a second time what happens?
Tony, why would God bring people back to life just to burn them, wouldn't it be better to teach them?
Tony's reply: Who said it is "just to burn them"? Does John's revelation say that? They will be resurrected to stand before the great white throne.
They will be judged according to their acts. The judgment is to set them right.
They will be cast into their second death.
Once Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away then death is abolished they will come out of death alive, and God will be All in all finally.
You ask wouldn't it be better to teach them? No, not at this point in time. You can't teach a dead man much anyway, can you? Obviously this is what they need for that time of their lives to enter death again. Why not ask "Why does God let all mankind go into the first death? Wouldn't it be better to teach them?"
QuoteCHB wrote: If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?
Quote from: Tony N
I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?
QuoteCHB replied: The spiritual death I am talking about is being dead to sin and alive in Christ. I feel I am at this point now. If they are in Christ how could they be oblivious to him?
Tony's reply: Was the first death a being dead to sin? No. It was dead to God and dead to life. When the dead are raised to stand before the great white throne are they all of the earth who were "dead to sin"? No. So the lake of fire is not being dead to sin. The second death has to be like the first death. You can't make the second death stand for something other than what it is. It is already the answer to what the lake of fire is.
QuoteCHB wrote: It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.
Quote from: Tony N
Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?
QuoteCHB replied: I did say that the lake of fire will be active till the end. Well, my idea of a first death is when we literally die and are buried in the ground. The way I understand this is, at the end physical death will be destroyed and those who are spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ.
Tony's reply:
O.K. The Bible doesn't say "the spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ." The bible never puts "spiritual" with "death." But I think I know what you mean.
QuoteCHB wrote: The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.
CHB
Tony's reply: My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.
The Bible says the lake of fire takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ ends. That is yet future so it can't be now.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
Hi Tony,
Am just trying to get to the truth of things, so bear with me here please.
Ok, let me start here and try to figure out just what is being said.
5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.
6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.
7 And whenever the thousand years should be finished
I am seeing in the above verses that "the rest of the dead" are those who were not in the first resurrection. "The rest of the dead" do not live again until the thousand years are finished.
12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
The way I understand these verses:
(Verse 12) What I see here is, the dead small and great are the spiritually dead because they are standing before God and are judged out of the books which I believe are the books of the LAW because they are judged according to their WORKS. I am going to be judged according to the works of Christ. The book of life I think is Christ.
(Verse 13) Seems to be the literally dead and they were also judged according to their WORKS.
(Verse 14) Now death, spiritually dead/physically dead and the unseen {grave} are cast into the lof. You see, how can the grave be cast into a lake of fire? It seems as if this lof is just a symbol of how death will be destroyed. How can it be a literal fire?
(Verse 15) Those who are not dead in Christ will be cast into the lof. "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me" (Gal. 2:19-20).
Your view please.
CHB
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 08:55:25 PM
CHB, you call the lake of fire "spiritual life." The bible calls the lake of fire death. Why should I believe you?
Even in the Bible the metaphorical "dead," the ones dead to God, are not having a "spiritual life."
Let's stay with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. You can't make "death" to be "spiritual life."
Hi Tony,
Actually the Bible doesn't say the lof is "death". It says (Rev. 20:14) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death". (Rev. 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Let me see if I can explain this so it makes sense.
Let's say, I will be raised to life in my unrepentent, fearful, and unbelieving and all the rest, state of being. Wouldn't you say I was dead physically, before I was raised and spiritually dead as well? Wouldn't you consider me dead before I was thrown in the lof? If the lof is what I believe it is, you have your answer in (1 Cor.13:15) as to what is going to happen to me. It is all the works above that will be burned up, not me. The lof will make me become spiritually alive because all of my works will be burned up.
Does this make any sense to anyone?? :happy3:
CHB
I see it like this (a limited outline)
First resurrection - overcomers in Christ, at the seventh(last) trumpet, at the commencement of the 1000 years, Resurrection of reward Paul was seeking to attain to. Over these the second death(krisis, appolumi) has no power.
Second resurrection - everybody else from all the ages, Great White Throne(hour of trial to come upon all who dwell on the earth), judged by the secrets of their hearts, some welcomed into the joy of their Lord, some saved as passing through fire(light of day 1 Cor 3:15) losing all their works and any accompanying reward, some sent to the LOF(some of those for few stripes, some for many)
An example of one who might be saved as passing through the fire- Lot(he lost all his works but his soul was saved when Sodom and Gomorrah was judged..... 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, John 15:6, Rev 3:14-21)
An example of an overcomer- Abraham(yielded his body in Isaac, his hearts desire, as a living sacrifice and gained the whole world..... Romans 12:1-3, Phil 3:8-15, James 1:12 Rev 2:10)
Lot was righteous but not an overcomer, a foolish virgin with an empty vessel, escaped by reason of Abraham's intercession.
We see through a glass darkly.... :o)
Only God can judge- by the secrets of our hearts, through Jesus of the flaming eyes, who tries the reins and hearts and rewards us according to our deeds...."I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink".
I like this post John.
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
Quote from: jabcat on May 18, 2010, 01:37:23 AM
Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia
According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."
According to another law of language you first need to define
what is going to die.
Depending on the answer Jabcat's quote doesn't break 'your' law.
If the fire only burns the chaff and leaves the wheat untouched or if the dross is removed while the gold remains, the fire purifies like a refiners fire by "second death of bad elements".
Quote from: CHB on May 19, 2010, 01:59:20 AMDoes this make any sense to anyone?? :happy3:
Yes.
QuoteLet's say, I will be raised to life in my unrepentent, fearful, and unbelieving and all the rest, state of being. Wouldn't you say I was dead physically, before I was raised and spiritually dead as well? Wouldn't you consider me dead before I was thrown in the lof? If the lof is what I believe it is, you have your answer in (1 Cor.13:15) as to what is going to happen to me. It is all the works above that will be burned up, not me. The lof will make me become spiritually alive because all of my works will be burned up.
It's a bit like: God hates sin but not the sinner.
So (perhaps) LoF kills sin but not the sinner.
Is taht what you mean CHB?
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 19, 2010, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 18, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
Quote from: jabcat on May 18, 2010, 01:37:23 AM
Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia
According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."
According to another law of language you first need to define what is going to die.
Depending on the answer Jabcat's quote doesn't break 'your' law.
If the fire only burns the chaff and leaves the wheat untouched or if the dross is removed while the gold remains, the fire purifies like a refiners fire by "second death of bad elements".
Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.
Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.
Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.
If the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?
The fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.
Quote from: TonyDid the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.
Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.QuoteDid Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.QuoteIf the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?
Hebrews 11:35
... and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
QuoteThe fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.
John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 02:27:57 PM
Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.
Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.
Because it's a different death.
QuoteDid Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.
What's your point? Jesus was just discussing farming techniques?
QuoteIf the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?
Who said the first death did that? Not me.
QuoteThe fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.
You speak of facts while the only thing you seem to do is use your own conclusion as proof.
Thanx jab, micah, I know we are all striving towards the unity of the faith. Someday Jesus, our Head, will bring us, His body, to a mature man :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 19, 2010, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 02:27:57 PM
Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.
Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.
QuoteWW replied: Because it's a different death.
Not really. the 2nd death is like the 1st death in that it is a complete cessation of life.
QuoteDid Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.
QuoteWW replied: What's your point? Jesus was just discussing farming techniques?
Someone posted about the burning of the chaff as if that is the lake of fire.. What's my point? My point is: Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.
QuoteIf the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?
QuoteWW replied Who said the first death did that? Not me.
Then it doesn't apply to you, only to those who said so.
QuoteThe fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.
QuoteWW replied: You speak of facts while the only thing you seem to do is use your own conclusion as proof.
My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".
Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.
Is the 2nd day not a 24 hour day?
Is the 2nd sheet of the temple not a sheet?
Is the 2nd epistle not an epistle?
Is the 2nd hour not an hour?
``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.
Was the second ``ward" or jail not a ward because it was second (Acts 12:10)? And the second Man, is He not a Man just as certainly as the first man, Adam (1 Cor.15: 47)? And is not the second covenant (Heb.8:7) a covenant at all? And the second ``veil" or curtain (Heb.9:3), was it not a veil? Peter's second epistle (2 Peter 3:1), the second animal (Rev.4:7), the second seal (Rev.11:14), the second foundation (Rev.21:19)--all of these are precisely what they are said to be in spite of the fact that they are not the first of their kind. Why, then, should the second death (Rev.2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8) be anything other than death? This is the divine definition of the lake of fire.
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 05:23:12 PM
My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".
Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.
Until you show me some proof for that I classify that statement under: "spiritualGnosticbabble"
Until you, or anyone else, has no verse or parable to support your view then for me it's just a possibility.
Quote``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.
So basicly you say: "I don't know what the second death is; only God knows"?
What we agree on:
- The 1st death is the end of life.
- The 2nd death is the end of life.
What I still don't see proof for in your answers is:
- What type of life?
a] Physical?
b] Spiritual?
c] Sinful?
d] Combination. Please specify what combination.
Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.
Twice dead--a prophecy?
11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
--Jude 1
You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."
13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
--Gen 4
[land of] "nod"
H5112
נד נודּ
nôd nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.
quote author=WhiteWings link=topic=8145.msg96262#msg96262 date=1274279908]
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 05:23:12 PM
My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".
Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.[/quote]
QuoteWW replied: Until you show me some proof for that I classify that statement under: "spiritualGnosticbabble"
Until you, or anyone else, has no verse or parable to support your view then for me it's just a possibility.
Look in the Scriptures yourself for a scripture. There are plenty. The first death all mankind experience is the death brought to us by Adam (Romans 5:12). It is not a spiritual death but a real death. Paul deals with this real death by telling us that God is going to give us immortality (un dying.)
QuoteTony wrote: ``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.
QuoteWW replied: So basicly you say: "I don't know what the second death is; only God knows"?
Tony's reply: No, I'm saying I do know what the 2nd death is. It is God's explanation of what the lake of fire is. The explanation is not to be explained away as something other than what it is.
QuoteWW wrote: What we agree on:
- The 1st death is the end of life.
- The 2nd death is the end of life.
What I still don't see proof for in your answers is:
- What type of life?
a] Physical?
b] Spiritual?
c] Sinful?
d] Combination. Please specify what combination.
Tony's reply:
a. Literal death is the end of literal physical life.
b. Figurative death (misnamed "spiritual death") is the end of figurative life i.e., when the law killed Paul, that was not a literal death but a figurative death. It put an end of his ability to live under the law in such a way he could do the law.
Sinful death? I don't know what that is in the Scriptures.
QuoteWW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.
That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.
If the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.
Did the 1st death all mankind experience make man fit for God? No.
Therefore the 2nd death, being like the 1st does not make man fit for God.
The only way mankind will be rescued from death to be acceptable to God is by what Christ did on the cross and in his burial and resurrection.
The only way mankind will be rescued from the 2nd death is through death being destroyed AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (1 Cor.15:22-28).
I didn't quote/answer your other replies because I think this part is really what it's at. Just to let you know I did see your replies.
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 06:50:58 PM
QuoteWW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.
That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.
So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.
QuoteIf the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.
Agreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.
I guess my conclusion is that as Adam died spiritually first [eyes opened, felt shame, kicked out of the garden], and physically second [900+years later], that process is reversed in Jesus--raised spiritually first [which will never die] and then physically [in the better/first resurrection].
These will not be hurt by the second death which is the lake of fire--because the process will be finished for them.
But the rest are hurt by the second death-- Ah, because the rest are raised physically first--they are still spiritually dead.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
--Rev 20
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 19, 2010, 07:23:52 PM
I didn't quote/answer your other replies because I think this part is really what it's at. Just to let you know I did see your replies.
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 06:50:58 PM
QuoteWW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead bury the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.
QuoteThat's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.
QuoteWW replied: So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.
Tony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).
QuoteIf the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.
QuoteWW replied: Agreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.
Tony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 10:09:25 PMThat's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.
QuoteWW replied: So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.
QuoteTony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).
The way I see it I'm in no way suggesting that. IF LoF is about cleaning then for me LoF can be Father.
He is not death. In fact killing sin means rebirth/awakening of a clean spirit. And that's life. So from that pov LoF kills 1 and revives another thing. Does killing sin make Father a God of death? IMO certainly not.
Quote from: Tony NIf the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.
Quote from: WhiteWingsAgreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.
QuoteTony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."
True. I see man more like a package deal. The 3 part package (body, spirit, sin)
The sin gets washed/burned/teached away.
Closing remark.
The above is the way that aligns scripture as I understand it. I'm very aware my opinion may change. I'm open to new views.
Maybe it's you, Tony, that changes that view. But until now, how correct you might be, I didn't see that "Eureka!" in your answers. Yet :icon_jokercolor:
QuoteTony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).
QuoteWW wrote: The way I see it I'm in no way suggesting that. IF LoF is about cleaning then for me LoF can be Father.
He is not death. In fact killing sin means rebirth/awakening of a clean spirit. And that's life. So from that pov LoF kills 1 and revives another thing. Does killing sin make Father a God of death? IMO certainly not.
The bible doesn't say the lake of fire is for cleaning. If anything, if it were, it would be for cleaning the new earth of dead bodies to keep down disease.
Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death. God is not the second Father. Death is not the Father. You have to stop with what God says the lake of fire is. You can't continue ad infinitum telling us it is death but death is this and this is that and that is this and so on and so on. It is just said to be death and we have to leave it at that. Death is the absence of life. We have to leave it at what God says it is.
QuoteTony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."
QuoteWW replied: True. I see man more like a package deal. The 3 part package (body, spirit, sin)
The sin gets washed/burned/teached away.
Tony's reply:
The Bible informs us that man is composed of body, soul and spirit not body, sin and spirit.
The Bible also informs us that the only way sin is dealt with completely is via the death, burial and resurection of Christ. If the lake of fire does that then it lessens what Christ did for mankind on the cross.
You can't teach a dead man new tricks. Go to the morgue and preach to the dead and see how many you get to understand the evangel.
No where does it say or even intimate that the lake of fire is to teach people. I realize that is a popular notion by a friend of mine who wrote a book on the lake of fire and said they were to learn there, but I think it is safer to stick with what God says the lake of fire is. It is death, the absence of life.
QuoteWW wrote: Closing remark.
The above is the way that aligns scripture as I understand it. I'm very aware my opinion may change. I'm open to new views.
Maybe it's you, Tony, that changes that view. But until now, how correct you might be, I didn't see that "Eureka!" in your answers. Yet
I fail to see how your understanding aligns scripture. It seems to me it misaligns it. You can't make death life.
Isaiah 5:20-21 KJV Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Woe to them who call death, life.
Quote from: Tony N
Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death.
Hi Tony, me again,
I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death. Define what the word "is" is. :laughing7:
Seriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain. The lof doesn't create death but destroys it, so that those who were dead are made alive.
You said that people would be resurrected, judged, thrown into the lof, or burned up. Will these people be resurrected again and what will happen to them once they are resurrected? Will they be changed into immortal immediately upon being resurrected? Was this their punishment for sins? What was it all for?
CHB
I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 11:45:50 PMWoe to them who call death, life.
If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMthe second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is"
:thumbsup:
QuoteSeriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain.
I see LoF a reveiling the inner life by stripping of the outer death/sinful nature
QuoteThe lof doesn't create death but destroys it,
Yep. Removes it like a fullars soap.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2010, 06:57:08 AM
I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!
Have you my friend and brother been reading my mail? Should I hit a key in my mind from LOF I find myself engulfed in those very questions. Peace and Love
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMI see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.
:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMI see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.
:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...
And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.
The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.
The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).
Remember, death is the absence of life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 11:45:50 PMWoe to them who call death, life.
If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMI see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.
:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...
And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.
The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.
The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).
Remember, death is the absence of life.
Greetings Tony,
interesting thread, i would like you take on this;
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be
tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: thanks
jeans friend chuck
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2010, 06:57:08 AM
I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!
Hi eaglesway, good questions.
Was there time in the garden? Yes. There was night and day and the sun and stars were for the marking out of times and seasons for Adam and Eve.
Adam was not dead while he was alive. He still talked with God after they sinned. The Hebrew of dying imposed on Adam was: "to die shall you be dy
ing." It is the process of dying "until you return to the ground from which you came."
I don't believe Adam had immortality because God witheld Adam from the tree of life "lest he eat of it and live for the eon." So the best he could do was to live for the duration of that eon. As it turns out, he did pretty good by living around 900 some years but died before the eon ended.
Can someone be dead while they are living? Yes.
Look at the widow of 1Timothy 5:6 "Yet she who is a prodigal, though living, is dead." The elipsis to be supplied after the word "dead" is "to God." She was prodigalling or spending freely and foolishly showing no need for God. So even though by all outward appearances she may have put on a fair face in the flesh by going to church and singing the songs and saying all the right things, she was in fact dead to God. Notice the widow in 1Timothy 5:5: "Now one really a widow, and alone, relies on God and is remaining in petitions and prayers night and day." See how she is alive to God? She relies on God. She has no money like the prodigalling widow. She is in prayers night and day and petitions.
You ask: "Could death [be] a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!
Death, figurative death, per the above is like the widow who has no need of God and is not concerned about the will of God. It is not a cessation of being but rather a cessation of being about the Father's business and thus being dead to doing God's will.
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 02:06:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 11:45:50 PMWoe to them who call death, life.
If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.
Quote from: chuckt on May 20, 2010, 02:11:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMI see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.
:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...
And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.
The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.
The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).
Remember, death is the absence of life.
Greetings Tony,
interesting thread, i would like you take on this;
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
thanks
jeans friend chuck
Here is something interesting on the verse you brought up:
"Conversely, a good example of literal fire and death is given to us in the Unveiling, in the destruction of the great city of Babylon.
It is only during the fall of Babylon that the worshipers of the wild beast and its image will be subjected to torment in fire and sulphur. These alone are concerned in this judgment. Though this may involve many individuals, together they comprise only a tiny percentage of all humanity. In the hour when judgment comes upon the city, a great conflagration will ensue. Once ignited, the fire of the city will continue to burn until it is "burned up" (Rev.18:8), when nothing but ashes remain.
"We know that subterranean coal beds may smoulder for centuries; that is, they burn with little smoke and no flame. But this could not be said of the ashes of the city! Hence no literal fumes are in view here, where we read that "the fumes of their torment are ascending...." (Rev.14:11). "Fumes" is a figure of speech, as is "drinking of the wine" (of the fury of God) and "blended undiluted in the cup" (of His indignation) (Rev.14:10). Like literal fumes which are the product of fire, the destruction of Babylon which is the product of God's judgment upon its inhabitants, will constitute the figurative "fumes"—that is, the associated evidence—which will be "ascending for the eons of the eons." This "ascending," since it is the ascending of figurative fumes, is figurative itself as well. Like smoke, which testifies to its existence when it ascends high into the air, the destruction and death which occurred at Babylon will be exceedingly widely known and attested to throughout the entire world, even "for the eons of the eons."
James Coram,
Unsearchable Riches, vol.84, p.75
"The `fumes...ascending for the eons of the eons' (Rev.14:11) is a figure of speech similar to the one used in Jude 7, `a specimen...[of] the justice of fire eonian.' When sulphur and fire rained from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the inhabitants were killed and the fumes ascended from the land (Gen.19:28). This event is well remembered. The Israelitish worshipers of the wild beast are the supreme sinners of mankind. They have no rest day and night while they are worshiping the wild beast and its image and shall be tormented until they die (Rev.14:9-12; 16:2,8,9; 18:8), some of them by the blade (19:21). Their fate will be remembered through the eons of the eons."
A. E. Knoch,
Unsearchable Riches, vol.66, p.143.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 02:06:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 19, 2010, 11:45:50 PMWoe to them who call death, life.
If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:
I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.
:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!
Hi Tony,
Those were pretty good answers to my questions. Concerning Adam then, are you saying he did not have immortality before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If I misunderstand clarify. To me(in the attitude of interesting discussions -not one of establishing doctrine), if Adam died because he ate, he was immortal before he ate,else-what did he lose? what the penalty? Also, some of the conclusions to be drawn from those answers are interesting as well. If there was time before Adam died then some of the general assumptions about eternity may be incorrect, such as that eternity is the absolute absence of time, totally transcending time, because if Adam was created with the power of endless life, but lost it when he ate, & there was no death UNTIL he ate-yeeesh :o), I am just always interested in the relationships between time and eternity and the transitions between them. Later, John
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AM
Quote from: Tony N
Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death.
Hi Tony, me again,
I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death. Define what the word "is" is. :laughing7:
Seriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain. The lof doesn't create death but destroys it, so that those who were dead are made alive.
Tony's reply:
Hi CHB, glad you are still involved in this thread. You bring some interesting thoughts to the table.
Was the first death the death of death? When Abe Lincoln died was it the end of death for him? When Christ died on the cross, was that death life for Him? If it was then there really was no sacrifice. The only time the death of death occurs is when death is abolished after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
QuoteYou said that people would be resurrected, judged, thrown into the lof, or burned up. Will these people be resurrected again and what will happen to them once they are resurrected? Will they be changed into immortal immediately upon being resurrected? Was this their punishment for sins? What was it all for?
CHB
Yes, all held by the second death will be resurrected from that death when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is done away. (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
They will put on immortality and incorruption when that occurs and will be made righteous and have their lives justified.
I think when they stand before their Saviour on the great white throne and see the miracle of their being brought out of the 1st death will be such an overwhelming thing for them. They will all be judged or set right at that point in time as they stand before the GWT. But since they are not in the book of life God must do something with them, and that is to once again give them a cessation of life. God does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon. Heck, even believers experience death for what they do (see 1 Cor.11:27-30). Some of those believers have been dead for about 2000 years. But to them, the next waking moment it will seem like only a split second has passed.
Remember, death is an enemy: "1 Cor.15:26 The last
enemy that shall be destroyed
is death.Death is not a friend. It does not allow us to learn about God while in death.
You ask: "What is it all for?" Do you mean "what is death for?" Or do you mean "why resurrect all those people, judge them and send them back into death?"
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2010, 03:25:38 PM
Hi Tony,
Those were pretty good answers to my questions. Concerning Adam then, are you saying he did not have immortality before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If I misunderstand clarify. To me(in the attitude of interesting discussions -not one of establishing doctrine), if Adam died because he ate, he was immortal before he ate,else-what did he lose? what the penalty?
Good questions. If he has immortality before he ate of the forbidden fruit, would that fruit has caused mortality? When we put on immortality, if we drink any poison or a poisonous snake bite us it will do us no harm, right? But, man, that is a good question! I think the penalty was a package deal: 1. Get thrown out of your home (i.e. the garden) 2. Get a job and make a living (i.e. work at farming and deal with weeds and thorns by the sweat of your brow) 3. Have labor in child bearing 4. have kids that can't get along and on top of all that, have the process of dying operating in you till your return to the soil.
QuoteAlso, some of the conclusions to be drawn from those answers are interesting as well. If there was time before Adam died then some of the general assumptions about eternity may be incorrect, such as that eternity is the absolute absence of time, totally transcending time, because if Adam was created with the power of endless life, but lost it when he ate, & there was no death UNTIL he ate-yeeesh :o), I am just always interested in the relationships between time and eternity and the transitions between them. Later, John
The eons or Olams (Hebrew) mark out time. I think it was Peter that said there were eons (plural) before. That means there was the eon prior to the flood (the eon in which Adam lived) and an eon before that. I believe the eon before the flood was between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Before Genesis 1:1 I don't think there was time because there were no celestial things like sun, moon and stars to mark out the time.
Quote from: TonyGod does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.
They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. --Rev 22
Quote from: Molly on May 20, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: TonyGod does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.
They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
Hi Molly, if you will look at 22:8 you will notice the vision has ended. John is now back to his own time zone if you will and from 22:8 is relating to the Jews their current status when John wrote Revelation.
In 21:8, in the vision, during the future John saw, such people in 22:15 will have their part in the lake of fire, the second death. But for now, such people are getting away with their sins. At least that is how I see it.
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 03:11:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 02:28:32 PM
I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.
:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!
Was it that hard to admit?
Enough time wasted....
Does anyone care to answer my questions Tony dodged while pushing his agenda?
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 20, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: TonyGod does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.
They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
Hi Molly, if you will look at 22:8 you will notice the vision has ended. John is now back to his own time zone if you will and from 22:8 is relating to the Jews their current status when John wrote Revelation.
In 21:8, in the vision, during the future John saw, such people in 22:15 will have their part in the lake of fire, the second death. But for now, such people are getting away with their sins. At least that is how I see it.
Rev 21:8 Yes, I see that. It's referring to the same people.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. --Rev 21
These people are both having their part in the lake of fire and are outside of the New Jerusalem--
the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [Rev 21:10] --.
the Lamb's wife [Rev 21:9]
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
--Gen 2
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 03:11:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 02:28:32 PM
I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.
:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!
Was it that hard to admit?
Enough time wasted....
Does anyone care to answer my questions Tony dodged while pushing his agenda?
What questions did you specifically ask me which I did not answer? Maybe I missed them?
And what specifically is my agenda? LOL!
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 20, 2010, 12:44:44 AMI see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.
:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...
And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.
The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.
The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).
Remember, death is the absence of life.
:cloud9: Obviously, death is NOT ONLY defined as the complete absence of life, or Jesus would not have said let the dead bury the dead.
Question: How does that work if the literally dead are thrown into the LOF, since they already (according to your take on it), had a complete absence of life? What then is left to kill with death?
Or do you think they are literally alive, then thrown into the LOF?Blessings...
You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?
My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.
QuoteAnd what specifically is my agenda? LOL!
Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view.
"Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view."
Perhaps TonyN would selflessly like to request a private thread so as not to consume the whole Tentmaker discussion board with a single topic for such a long period of time.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 07:23:43 PM
You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?
My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.
Tony's reply:
The death of a person is the death of that whole person. "The spirit returns to God Who gave it." "The body returns to soil from which it came" and "the soul returns to the unseen." In this case the body turns to ashes from the fire and most likely those ashes go into the soil?
If someone is saying that the explanation of a figure demands to be something other than what the divine explanation is then I would view it with real suspicion. The phrase "the lake of fire is the second death" does not say "the lake of fire is the second death and death is spiritual death." Nor does it say: "The lake of fire is the second death and the death is of the old sinful nature." Do you see what they are doing? They are making the answer to the figure other than what the answer is.
Here is another example of a figure and God's explanation of that figure such as "water":
Rev 17:15 And he is saying to me, "
These waters which you perceived, where the prostitute is sitting,
are peoples and throngs and nations and languages."
Now you are not supposed to make "peoples" something other than what we know peoples to be. We are not suppose to make "peoples" be "spiritual aardvarks" like people make "death" to be "spiritual death" or whatever. And we are not supposed to make "nations" be something other than what common sense tells us and "languages" something other than what it is. So the lake of fire is the second death, death is the answer to what the lake of fire is.
The death spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to the lake of fire is for those not to be having life. How do I know? Because their names are not in the book of those who will be enjoying life on the new earth. Does that make sense? Do I need to quote the exact book, chapter and verse for that to satisfy you?
Even where it is written "Let the dead bury the dead" the first "dead" in that verse is concerning those who have a complete absense of life to God and His Son.
When Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.
The widow of Paul's letter to Timothy was "though living is dead" (1 Tim.5:6). She was dead to God. Her death to God was a complete absence of life to God. She did not have a life of living to God. Get it?
QuoteAnd what specifically is my agenda? LOL!
QuoteWW replied: Using this thread as a blog. Not for a really discussing anything that's not your view.
You must have me confused with someone else. I'm not using this thread as a blog.
And I have been discussing with all of you your views. Just because I think your views concerning the lake of fire is all wet (pun intended) :laughing7: doesn't mean I have to talk like you to converse with you.
Now then, did I run from your questions or did I answer them?
Quote from: TonyWhen Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.
Hi Tony, his body was physically dead, but Jesus tells us he was asleep.
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. --John 11
"sleepeth"G2837
κοιμάω
koimaōkoy-mah'-o
From G2749;
to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
G2749
κειμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): -
be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare G5087.
Quote from: Tony N on May 20, 2010, 08:11:21 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 07:23:43 PM
You answer every/most question with: dead=dead=absense of life.
I agree with that. We also agreed that there is physical and spiritual life.
So just saying LoF is death isn't an answer I accept without proof of some kind.
If the verse speaks about death; what death? Death of what?
Body? Spirit? Something else? And no matter the answer what gave you that idea? Verse, parable, book, ....?
My view (I'm strongly considering) is that LoF is not a pool of death. I look at verses that add "with fire and brimstone".
Word meanings that link fire and brimstone to purification, holiness, etc. Or quite a few verses like "refiners fire".
Articles found on the main TM site by for example Preston Eby also point to more than just destruction/death.
Yeah death/destruction of the old sinful nature.
I can't just ignore all that info and views just because you keep repeating dead=dead.
There is even a verse that proves death does not (always) equal all absense of life.
"Let the dead bury the dead." Those dead, unless zombies, were lively enough to dig holes :laughing7:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.
Tony's reply:
The death of a person is the death of that whole person. "The spirit returns to God Who gave it." "The body returns to soil from which it came" and "the soul returns to the unseen." In this case the body turns to ashes from the fire and most likely those ashes go into the soil?
Only if you view LoF as real fire. I'm not so sure about that. I edge to something symbolic.
QuoteIf someone is saying that the explanation of a figure demands to be something other than what the divine explanation is then I would view it with real suspicion.
I agree with that. But things are not always that simple. The good Shepard parable isn't really about sheep. And the actual number isn't 100 either. So I guess it depends largely on what you think LoF is. If the answer is something symbolic then about everything can have a hidden meaning. But of course whatever view one has it has to be supported by verses. That goes without saying.
QuoteThe phrase "the lake of fire is the second death" does not say "the lake of fire is the second death and death is spiritual death." Nor does it say: "The lake of fire is the second death and the death is of the old sinful nature." Do you see what they are doing? They are making the answer to the figure other than what the answer is.
No it doesn't say that. But it's Jesus Himself
that makes it a valid consideration. For a atheist it's clear. Dead=dead. End of story.
But Jesus Himself introduced separate deaths => dead burry the dead.
Something that can't be just ignored to make understanding of a certain view easier.
Personally I prefer to conclude I have no idea of what LoF exactly is than ignoring verses to reach an easy conclusion...
QuoteThe death spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to the lake of fire is for those not to be having life. How do I know? Because their names are not in the book of those who will be enjoying life on the new earth. Does that make sense? Do I need to quote the exact book, chapter and verse for that to satisfy you?
No that's a good answer. I know the verses about the book of life.
Let me start with saying the people whose names are not written in the book of life are missing out on a glorious period. So I think we have agreement on that. But does that mean they are completely dead? Someone that's in prison isn't dead but still is missing lots joys related to life outside of jail.
QuoteEven where it is written "Let the dead bury the dead" the first "dead" in that verse is concerning those who have a complete absense of life to God and His Son.
How will those people come back to life again? Some instant conversion like Saul/Paul or perhaps a longer period? Could that period be in LoF.
QuoteWhen Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experience the absence of life.
The question is; it that the same type of death as LoF. LoF seems some kind of endgame in the big masterplan. I'm not yet convinced it's just very dead death.
QuoteNow then, did I run from your questions or did I answer them?
Yes. They are good and clear answers :thumbsup:
Not that I'm convinced all answers are correct. But that's not what I want or ask.
Question: Do you thing the fire in LoF is real literal fire? The ET type of fire.
Quote from: Molly on May 20, 2010, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: TonyWhen Lazarus was dead four days he stunk. He was not "spiritually dead." He was experiencing the absence of life.
Hi Tony, his body was physically dead, but Jesus tells us he was asleep.
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
--John 11
"Sleep" is a euphemism for death. Abraham slept with his fathers means he croaked, kicked the bucket, or whatever else you want to call it. Lazarus was in the sleep of death. It wasn't like he was
literally just fallen asleep.
:cloud9: You haven't answered mine yet, but here's another. What then did it mean when it was said of the damsel, "she's NOT DEAD, she sleepeth"? Blessings.....
Quoteww asked:
Question: Do you think the fire in LoF is real literal fire? The ET type of fire.
Was the sword which came out of Jesus' mouth a literal sword?
Were the waters John saw literal waters or did they stand for nations?
Is the Lamb a literal lamb or does it represent the literal Christ?
Does Elmer Fudd have a problem pronouncing the letter 'R'? :laughing7: O.K. my bad.
I believe this lake of fire is symbolic and, as the sword represents the words coming out of Christ's mouth which will literally slay His opponenents, and the waters represent literal nations, thus the lake of fire is representative of actual, literal death. That is the best I can do for now.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
:cloud9: You haven't answered mine yet, but here's another. What then did it mean when it was said of the damsel, "she's NOT DEAD, she sleepeth"? Blessings.....
I guess we just have to believe the Good Doctor's appraisal of the situation, no?
Here in Michigan, in the 1800's there is a recorded event of a man who was eating with his family and he passed out face first into his plate of food. They thought he had died. There was no pulse. They laid him out on the living room table a day or two later for the viewing. Friends and relatives and family all came from miles around and were in the living room. Suddenly he came out of it, sat up and asked in a loud voice: "What's going on?" According to the account people were so scared they went running out of the room and out of the house. As it turned out he was taking some medication which slowed his heart down so slowly that they couldn't get a pulse.
Obviously they couldn't get a pulse on the girl and thought she had died but she was sleeping in the sense she was unconscious.
KJVLuk 8:52-55 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
What does "came again" exactly mean? Especially in the other translations it sounds like the spirit has left her body?
But OTOH can a body without a spirit be alive?
I know about spirtual death but I think that's not what this verse is about :dontknow:
ASV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
BBE Luke 8:55 And her spirit came back to her and she got up straight away: and he gave orders that food was to be given to her.
CJB Luke 8:55 and her spirit returned. She stood up at once, and he directed that something be given her to eat.
CSB Luke 8:55 Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then He gave orders that she be given something to eat.
DBY Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and immediately she rose up; and he commanded something to eat to be given to her.
DRA Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.
ERV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
ESV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
ETH Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose. And he directed that they should give her to eat.
GNV Luke 8:55 And her spirite came againe, and she rose straightway: and he comanded to giue her meate.
GWN Luke 8:55 She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.
[her spirit]
"came again"
G1994
επιστρέφω
epistrephō
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).
I would translate it, her spirit returned.
Ok Tony,
I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2010, 11:16:29 PM
KJVLuk 8:52-55 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
What does "came again" exactly mean? Especially in the other translations it sounds like the spirit has left her body?
But OTOH can a body without a spirit be alive?
I know about spirtual death but I think that's not what this verse is about :dontknow:
ASV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
BBE Luke 8:55 And her spirit came back to her and she got up straight away: and he gave orders that food was to be given to her.
CJB Luke 8:55 and her spirit returned. She stood up at once, and he directed that something be given her to eat.
CSB Luke 8:55 Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then He gave orders that she be given something to eat.
DBY Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and immediately she rose up; and he commanded something to eat to be given to her.
DRA Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.
ERV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
ESV Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
ETH Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she arose. And he directed that they should give her to eat.
GNV Luke 8:55 And her spirite came againe, and she rose straightway: and he comanded to giue her meate.
GWN Luke 8:55 She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.
Since Jesus said she is not dead, I have to believe what He said. Matthew reports it this way:
Mat 9:24 said, "Retire, for the maiden did not die, but is drowsing.And they ridiculed Him."
Mat 9:25 Now when the throng was ejected, entering, He holds her hand, and the maiden was roused."
Albert Barne's Notes On The Bible says this:
My daughter is even now dead - Luke says that this was his only daughter, and that she was twelve years of age. Mark and Luke say that she was "at the point of death," and that information of her actual death was brought to him by one who was sent by the ruler of the synagogue, while Jesus was going. Matthew combined the two facts, and stated the representation which was made to Jesus, without stopping particularly to exhibit the manner in which it was done. In a summary way he says that the ruler communicated the information. Luke and Mark, dwelling more particularly on the circumstances, state at length the way in which it was done; that is, by himself stating, in a hurry, that she was "about to die," or "was dying," and then in a few moments sending word that "she was dead." The Greek word, rendered "is even now dead," does not of necessity mean, as our translation would express, that she had actually expired, but only that she was "dying" or about to die. Compare Gen_48:21. It is likely that a father, in these circumstances, would use a word as nearly expressing actual death as would be consistent with the fact that she was alive. The passage may be expressed thus: "My daughter was so sick that she must be by this time dead."
Adam Clarke's Commentary On The Bible says this:
My daughter is even now dead - Or, my daughter was just now dying; αρτι ετελευτησεν, or, is by this time dead: i.e. as Mr. Wakefield properly observes, She was so ill when I left home that she must be dead by this time. This turn of the expression reconciles the account given here with that in Mark and Luke. Michaelis conjectures that, in the Hebrew original, the words must have stood thus, עתה מתה atah matah, which, without the points, may signify either, She is dead, or She is dying.
To be successful in our applications to God by prayer, four things are requisite; and this ruler teaches us what they are.
Here is how the Concordant Literal renders the passage:
Luk 8:52-55 Now they all lamented, and they grieved for her. Now He said, "Be not lamenting, for she did not die, but is drowsing." (53) And they ridiculed Him, being aware that she died." (54) Yet He, casting all outside and holding her hand, shouts, saying, "Girl, be roused!" (55)
And back turns her spirit, and she rose instantly. And He prescribes that she be given something to eat."
In the Greek it is literally "And on turns the spirit of her" in vs. 55.
Quote from: Pierac on May 21, 2010, 03:11:13 AM
Ok Tony,
I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul
The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?
Well, it's called "the second death"The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.
Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom,
fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down
fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.
Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity
Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 03:37:20 AMSince Jesus said she is not dead, I have to believe what He said.
Yes. But it's not alway clear what is said. For me things can only return if they are away. Being near dead is a acceptable explanation for me.
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 03:59:44 AM
Article: Well, it's called "the second death"
The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.
I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.
Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.
(people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)
QuoteJesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.
No, but it surely was judgment day for those living in the cities. It purified the area of their sins. The destruction didn't happen by random chance.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 21, 2010, 06:54:22 AM
Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity
Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."
That's right, the lake of fire and brimstone is for Divine purification of the new earth of dead bodies.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 21, 2010, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 03:59:44 AM
Article: Well, it's called "the second death"
QuoteTony replied: The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.
QuoteWW replied: I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.
Tony's reply: Sources for those researchers? And, just curious :dontknow: what do you mean? Do you mean some researchers said that fire destroyed those cities of the dead sea? :dontknow:
QuoteWW wrote: Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.
Tony's reply: Really? :dontknow: I can't find any verse where Jesus used the lake of fire to explain spiritual affairs.
QuoteWW continues: (people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)
Tony's reply: I think you mean the Jerusalemites used Gehenna as a garbage dump.
QuoteTony wrote: Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.
QuoteWW replied: No, but it surely was judgment day for those living in the cities. It purified the area of their sins. The destruction didn't happen by random chance.
Tony's reply: :thumbsup: Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly! :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 21, 2010, 06:54:22 AM
Andrew Jukes did some extensive writing on theion and its usage in antiquity
Here is a quote from Ray Prinzing that I read on a site by Ken Eckerty
"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it."
if the lake of fire is "divine purification" and it is second death; and the saints are not hurt of it; ie: the Daniel 3 story of Shadrach and gang is a similtude of LOF, then not a hair is singed. As Chris said on another thread, "Notice that these three men were cast into the fire BOUND and yet were seen walking LOOSED (with one like unto the Son of God)? That upon their bodies "the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them"?"
How then did the second death "purify" those in Christ? Seems to me, one should be singed, burned in order to be purified. So LOF would "have power" over one; in order to be purfied.
When I've asked others before; they say "it doesn't burn them" because the saints fire and brimstone already occurred earlier;--->first death.
I don't see first and second death as the same thing, just at different times.
fire and brimstone seems to me to be connected to "unrighteous", not the "righteous". I don't see anywhere where brimstone is ever used in the bible as a "purifier" to make one a "believer".
Found this by Bro. Prinzing it is not that long
The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam. Not to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself, it leads up to the 'AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and lives unto God, and so fulfills all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
"Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' - 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more - not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality - but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it - only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, He is destroying the first death with the second death!
"All the Crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must first be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims of Christ upon us, we won't have to face it later, in what is called 'the lake of fire,' which is the second death. The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more" -end quote.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 02:30:42 PM
The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace". To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?
Jer 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Was this the path for all of us that have moved from "death to life"? for believers? a shame that won't be forgotten?
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
QuoteWW replied: I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible :winkgrin:
The 5 cities are now believed to be in the dead sea according to some researchers.
Also according to some researchers the dead sea was also linked to fire at Jesus age.
Tony's reply: Sources for those researchers? And, just curious :dontknow: what do you mean? Do you mean some researchers said that fire destroyed those cities of the dead sea? :dontknow:
Summary: The whole dead sea is on a fault line. During Sodom things went very wrong. Seismic activity. Tarpits exploded. The earth literally opened and teh whole area sunk. The cities sunk into the sea. In the whole area millions of marble sized almost pure sulphur/brimstone balls can be found.
Also a volcano in/under the sea. It's said it was still smoking during Jesus time.
So scholars (also secular) agree on the destruction of sodom.
A more correct translation is lake of THE fire - http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7579.msg96242#new
QuoteQuoteWW wrote: Just like Jesus used the literal Gehenna to explain spiritual affairs; He did the same with LoF.
Tony's reply: Really? :dontknow: I can't find any verse where Jesus used the lake of fire to explain spiritual affairs.
QuoteWW continues: (people also used the dead sea as a garbage dump)
Tony's reply: I think you mean the Jerusalemites used Gehenna as a garbage dump.
No. Both.
QuoteThe New John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:
There seems to be some allusion in the phrase used here, and in the preceding verse, and elsewhere in this book, to the lake Asphaltites, a sulphurous lake, where Sodom and Gomorrah stood, which the Jews call the salt sea, or the bituminous lake; and whatsoever was useless, or rejected, or abominable, or accursed, they used to say, to show their rejection and detestation of it, let it be cast into the sea of salt, or the bituminous lake; thus, for instance,
``any vessels that had on them the image of the sun, or of the moon, or of a dragon "let them cast them into the salt sea", or bituminous lake*."
Quote from: Zeek on May 21, 2010, 02:29:38 PM
How then did the second death "purify" those in Christ? Seems to me, one should be singed, burned in order to be purified. So LOF would "have power" over one; in order to be purfied.
When I've asked others before; they say "it doesn't burn them" because the saints fire and brimstone already occurred earlier;--->first death.
I don't see first and second death as the same thing, just at different times.
fire and brimstone seems to me to be connected to "unrighteous", not the "righteous". I don't see anywhere where brimstone is ever used in the bible as a "purifier" to make one a "believer".
First of all noone is pure so all need a bit of cleaning I guess.
The temple was purified with brimstone.
What exactly is cleaning? If I wash my flithy clothes I have 2 things.
Clean clothes and dirt. The whole idea of washing them is separating the dirt from the clean clothes. Hows that for a definition? :bgdance:
Just thinking out loud here.... could cleaning a spirit be just the same? The spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
:dontknow: :dontknow:
Quote from: Zeek on May 21, 2010, 02:53:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 02:30:42 PM
The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace". To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?
Everybody will be salted with fire. Salt is good.... ?
Quote from: Zeek on May 21, 2010, 02:53:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 02:30:42 PM
The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
So would you say that it is "good" to be "hurt" of the second death; as that is the process of going from mortality to immortality; from "carnal mind to spiritual mind", to "peace". To be cleansed, wouldn't you have needed to be "hurt" by it; in order to have all the impurities "burned" out?
Rev 2:11 He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death.
IMO, the second death does not purify believers. No one who believes, and then continues in faith to the end, will be hurt of the second death. Those who believe in Christ have their hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(consciousness) and their bodies washed with pure water- have been sanctified by the washing of the water of the word, having received the word implanted which is able to save their souls. "Blessed is the one unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, whose sin is forgiven". Their is a clear separation before anyone is cast into the LOF. Even if you see that a a type- the separation is still there. In Romans Ch 1&2 we also read that at the GWT when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Christ Jesus, their conscience will either excuse or accuse them. I believe our own conscience may be the books we will be judged out of- the record of our deeds and thoughts..."having our hearts sprinkled clean"...."if any man sin we have a propitiation for that sin"....."confess your faults one to another and pray for one another"...."If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"....."all that is brought to light becomes light".
Rev 1:16 and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.(and we all with unveiled face beholding....)
The sword brings exposure(truth in the inner man) confession brings cleansing(And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins).
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
I am He who tries the reigns and the hearts, I will judge everyone by their deeds
May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall, for the reckoning(gr. logos) of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes--with whom is our reckoning(logos).
(Heb 4:11-13)
of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
(1Co 3:13)
Rev 2:16 `Reform! and if not, I come to thee quickly(piercing to the dividing asunder), and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth(making manifest).
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook(From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, the heart of man is deceitful & perverse, who can know it)? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down(The tongue is a world of evil set on fire by Gehenna)?
Isa 27:1 In that day(Today, if you Hear His voice) the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword(the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart) shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent(dividing asunder soul & spirit), even leviathan that crooked serpent(piercing to the dividing asunder); and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea(making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart....you desire truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out).
Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine(If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin).
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day(For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish)
.
Isa 27:4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together(In whom also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined by Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will).
Isa 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me(If you abide in me and I abide in you you shall bear fruit and your fruit shall remain).
Isa 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit (But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace).
Isa 27:7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him(Who shall bring a charge against God's elect)? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him(He that overcomes I will give to escape the hour of tribulation that is to come upon all those that dwell on the earth)?
Quote from: eaglesway on May 21, 2010, 04:36:25 PM
IMO, the second death does not purify believers. No one who believes, and then continues in faith to the end, will be hurt of the second death. Those who believe in Christ have their hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(consciousness) and their bodies washed with pure water- have been sanctified by the washing of the water of the word, having received the word implanted which is able to save their souls. "Blessed is the one unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, whose sin is forgiven". Their is a clear separation before anyone is cast into the LOF. Even if you see that a a type- the separation is still there. In Romans Ch 1&2 we also read that at the GWT when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Christ Jesus, their conscience will either excuse or accuse them. I believe our own conscience may be the books we will be judged out of- the record of our deeds and thoughts..."having our hearts sprinkled clean"...."if any man sin we have a propitiation for that sin"....."confess your faults one to another and pray for one another"...."If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"....."all that is brought to light becomes light".
Rev 1:16 and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.(and we all with unveiled face beholding....)
The sword brings exposure(truth in the inner man) confession brings cleansing(And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins).
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
I am He who tries the reigns and the hearts, I will judge everyone by their deeds
May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall, for the reckoning(gr. logos) of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes--with whom is our reckoning(logos).
(Heb 4:11-13)
of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
(1Co 3:13)
Rev 2:16 `Reform! and if not, I come to thee quickly(piercing to the dividing asunder), and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth(making manifest).
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook(From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, the heart of man is deceitful & perverse, who can know it)? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down(The tongue is a world of evil set on fire by Gehenna)?
Isa 27:1 In that day(Today, if you Hear His voice) the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword(the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart) shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent(dividing asunder soul & spirit), even leviathan that crooked serpent(piercing to the dividing asunder); and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea(making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart....you desire truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out).
Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine(If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin).
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day(For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish)
.
Isa 27:4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together(In whom also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined by Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will).
Isa 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me(If you abide in me and I abide in you you shall bear fruit and your fruit shall remain).
Isa 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit (But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace).
Isa 27:7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him(Who shall bring a charge against God's elect)? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him(He that overcomes I will give to escape the hour of tribulation that is to come upon all those that dwell on the earth)?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: wwThe spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
...ye shall be as gods--Gen 3
Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Quote from: Molly on May 21, 2010, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: wwThe spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
...ye shall be as gods
--Gen 3
Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 21, 2010, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: wwThe spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
...ye shall be as gods
--Gen 3
Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Yes, but satan told them they wouldn't die if they ate from the tree. So what do we end up with? Men who want to be God. But they are gods who die.
Matthew 10:24
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Quote from: Molly on May 21, 2010, 07:02:40 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 21, 2010, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: wwThe spirit never really was an unbeliever. It just got poluted/put to sleep with satan's lies.
...ye shall be as gods
--Gen 3
Psalm 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Yes, but satan told them they wouldn't die if they ate from the tree. So what do we end up with? Men who want to be God. But they are gods who die.
Matthew 10:24
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
:thumbsup:
So, getting back to what the lake of fire actually is: death, we must come to the conclusion that the lake of fire is not: life.
Also, the lake burning with fire and sulphur is death: Rev 21:8 ". . . the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
The term "lake of fire and sulphur" is a complete symbol. It is not "lake of fire and God" because God is not death but is life.
Death is the absence of life. Just my :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 02:30:42 PM
Found this by Bro. Prinzing it is not that long
The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam. Not to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself, it leads up to the 'AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and lives unto God, and so fulfills all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
"Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' - 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more - not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality - but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it - only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, He is destroying the first death with the second death!
"All the Crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must first be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims of Christ upon us, we won't have to face it later, in what is called 'the lake of fire,' which is the second death. The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more" -end quote.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 21, 2010, 02:30:42 PMThe question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first?
Quote"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic.
QuoteThe passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more"
Yep. That sounds like logical and Biblically supported view :thumbsup:
To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
This is offered in peaceful, loving disagreement :o)
Generic claims like "all bible statements prove" do not merit consideration since all bible statements are not being listed and some bible statements could be understood differently than your personal interpretation declares. The very use of the same word "death" to describe both experiences implies some similarity, even if we do not agree as to the nature of that similarity. I may not agree in entirety with Tony's definition of death, but it seems to me that there are not that many bible statements about it and the one we have uses the word second "death" to describe the experience. These are God's words, He is not confused, He describes the LOF as the second "death" for some reason. Hmmmm.
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 03:59:44 AM
Quote from: Pierac on May 21, 2010, 03:11:13 AM
Ok Tony,
I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul
The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?
Well, it's called "the second death"
The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.
Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.
Tony Tony, focus!
This author is not writing about the second death, he is writing about the
Fire of God!Your implanting the
"second death" into his paper.
You said... "He makes no mention that God rained down
fire and God on Sodom but sulphur!
Yet, I read in your very own response by quoting him... he actually did!I give here the Greek word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling.
This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." (See your quote above)
I offered this link because I though you may enjoy it! I never meant it to be a contradiction to your beliefs! From my point of view your putting down someone who actually leans to wards your beliefs. You may have become too defensive to see?
Anyway, I read and study a lot and thought you may have liked this guy, I was not offering an opinion, but a gift. :2c:
Peace,
Paul
4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
--Psalm 23
Quote from: eaglesway on May 22, 2010, 01:30:58 AM
To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
This is offered in peaceful, loving disagreement :o)
Generic claims like "all bible statements prove" do not merit consideration since all bible statements are not being listed and some bible statements could be understood differently than your personal interpretation declares. The very use of the same word "death" to describe both experiences implies some similarity, even if we do not agree as to the nature of that similarity. I may not agree in entirety with Tony's definition of death, but it seems to me that there are not that many bible statements about it and the one we have uses the word second "death" to describe the experience. These are God's words, He is not confused, He describes the LOF as the second "death" for some reason. Hmmmm.
Exactly eaglesway.
What I also found interesting was Ray Prinzing's idea of what the second death means. But it seems to me his reasoning for making that death to be life is wrong. Allow me to explain.
Ray wrote:
"God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last. But who is to say this is what John was getting at in his Revelation?
I posted a post in this thread about 2nd things and how they are like the 1st things, i.e. 2nd curtain, 2nd day, 2nd watch etc. None of these things are greater than the first.
All one needs to do is take a look at every second thing in Revelation and note that in no way are the second things greater than the first.
Here, I'll do it for you:
(Rev 2:11) '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by
the second death."
(Rev 4:7) And the first animal is like a lion, and
the second animal is like a calf, and the third animal has a face like as a human being, and the fourth animal is like a flying vulture."
(Rev 6:3) And when It opens
the second seal, I hear the second animal saying, "Come!"
(Rev 8:8) And
the second messenger trumpets. And as it were a huge mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood,
(Rev 11:14)
The second woe passed away. Lo! the third woe is coming swiftly!
(Rev 14:8) And another,
a second messenger, follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!"
(Rev 16:3) And
the second pours out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as if of a dead man. And every living soul died which is in the sea.
(Rev 19:3) And
a second time have they declared, "Hallelujah! And her smoke is ascending for the eons of the eons."
(Rev 20:6) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these
the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
(Rev 20:14) And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is
the second death-the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:8) Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is
the second death."
(Rev 21:19) The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, the first foundation with jasper,
the second lapis lazuli, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
Not one of these cases is the second thing greater than the first in John's Revelation so why should the second death be any better than the first?
And just because Paul wrote about the second Adam does not mean John had that in mind when he wrote about the second death.
It is actually a very merciful thing that the lake of fire is death. Rather than torment these people they are put back into an unconscious state like the first death.
Basically what Ray is doing is re-defining what death is.
Whatever it is it surely is not righteousness and peace. No one who was dead to God while alive had righteousness and peace. And no one who was literally dead was, while in death, experiencing righteousness and peace. They were just oblivious to such things.
Ray wrote:
"It is by death that death is rendered powerless"This too is incorrect. It is by giving those in the death state immortality and incorruption that death is rendered powerless. The only way death is to be abolished is by abolishing it with life. That is what 1 Corinthians 15 is all about.
Remember, those not found in the book of
life are cast back into
death and since death is the absence of life, we know that these people are not living some sort of life while in death.
At least these are my own thoughts on this subject. It is possible I am right. :laughing7:
I see your train of logic. I have read some good things by bro Ray, but I am wary of anything that implies systematic similarity. It blocks open minded examination. Things like "all seconds are greater than firsts" or "all bible statements prove" require systematic acceptance of facts that need individual examination. There are some statements about the LOF that indicate to me a level of consciousness("torment day and night", for instance). I am not sure I have understood your perspective correctly- but it seems to me that you are saying there is no consciousness in the second death. I am not sure I can see that scripturally. Also, although I cannot directly prove it by literal verse, I think Gehenna is a typological symbol for the LOF. But at any rate, I prefer references to scripture as opposed to blanket statements. For instance, even if many seconds are greater than firsts, this does not mean I should accet as a proof the staement ALL seconds are greater than firsts. Someone might say the second coming of Christ is greater than the first, but I would disagree,
Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
This would indicate that the first coming of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world, was the greatest, indeed even the core of all the mind of God in all creation, destruction and restoration.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(1Pe 1:17-23)
Of course, above all these truths is the truth that the grace of God teaches us to love one another, so peace, my brother, John
What you do not accept is that these revelations are happening now, in, those who are hearing. These "seconds" as you point out, are not known how they are working in the indivdual overcomer. The workings maybe a greater in each overcomer or less as is needed. This God fire as I believe it is, works in each individual as is needed.
The Gehenna fire that Jesus taught the disciples they must learn from, and be judged by, worked differently in each vessel, each disciple had different qualities. I do believe it is God's Fire.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 22, 2010, 02:12:55 AM
There are some statements about the LOF that indicate to me a level of consciousness("torment day and night", for instance). I am not sure I have understood your perspective correctly- but it seems to me that you are saying there is no consciousness in the second death. I am not sure I can see that scripturally.
I hope you don't mind me concentrating on your statement above to the exclusion of the rest of your fine post.
In Revelation 14:11 this was concerning the destruction of Babylon in a day. It is my understanding that "they are having no rest night or day, those worshipping the wild beast" is that this is while they are living. It is after they are killed that "the fumes of their torment is ascending for the eons of the eons."
However, Satan, the beast and false prophet is tormented night and day in the lake of fire for the eons of the eons.
For humans not written in the book of life it is never said to be torment but death.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 22, 2010, 02:24:41 AM
What you do not accept is that these revelations are happening now, in, those who are hearing. These "seconds" as you point out, are not known how they are working in the indivdual overcomer. The workings maybe a greater in each overcomer or less as is needed. This God fire as I believe it is, works in each individual as is needed.
The Gehenna fire that Jesus taught the disciples they must learn from, and be judged by, worked differently in each vessel, each disciple had different qualities. I do believe it is God's Fire.
Hi micah, you are correct. I do not accept that these revelations are happening now. They are yet future. The thousand year reign has not begun yet in Revelation. The New Earth has not come yet nor have the bowls been poured out on the earth and on and on.
BTW, Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition.
Quote from: Pierac on May 22, 2010, 01:47:13 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 21, 2010, 03:59:44 AM
Quote from: Pierac on May 21, 2010, 03:11:13 AM
Ok Tony,
I got a link for you. It's just a page or so...
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/fire.htm
Not sure if you will like it or not, but a quick read all the same.
Paul
The writer states this from the link you provided. I will put the quote in italics so as to demarcate it from my reply:
To compare the terms "fire and brimstone" (or: burning sulfur) here with that in the book of Rev., let's read it from the LXX (the Greek version of the OT): "And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (theion) and fire from the Lord from out of the midst of heaven." I give here the Gr. word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." The same words are in the Greek text of Rev. 19:20 where we read of "the lake (or: pond) of the Fire (a figure of God) continuously burning within [the] Deity (theion)." So if it's the same as that which killed those of Sodom and Gomorrah, what will it do to those who take the mark of the beast? I suggest that it will kill them. But what does this mean?
Well, it's called "the second death"
The fire and sulphur which rained down on Sodom was not the second death. Those Sodomites did not enter into the lake of fire. That only takes place after the Great White Throne judgment.
Jesus said:
Luk 17:29 Yet on the day in which Lot came out from Sodom, fire and sulphur [theion] rains from heaven and destroys them all."
He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur.
Tony Tony, focus!
This author is not writing about the second death, he is writing about the Fire of God!
Your implanting the "second death" into his paper.
You said... "He makes no mention that God rained down fire and God on Sodom but sulphur! Yet, I read in your very own response by quoting him... he actually did!
I give here the Greek word often translated "brimstone," or "sulfur," for you to note its spelling. This word is actually the neuter form of (theios) which means: Deity. With the definite article (the) before it, it means "the Divine nature." (See your quote above)
I offered this link because I though you may enjoy it! I never meant it to be a contradiction to your beliefs! From my point of view your putting down someone who actually leans to wards your beliefs. You may have become too defensive to see?
Anyway, I read and study a lot and thought you may have liked this guy, I was not offering an opinion, but a gift. :2c:
Peace,
Paul
Paul,
The person in the link you posted was writing about Sodom and Gomorrah and fire and brimstone then said "it's called the second death." I might have improperly joined the two things. If so, I am sorry. I didn't mean to upset you.
BTW, theotes is never translated "Deity" is it? At least not in the Concordant Literal. It is always "sulphur" and once "Divine." I think the reason sulphur has divine connotations is maybe it was used in religions for their divine things?
Anyway, sorry if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I just thought the writer was leading from the fire and sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah and then saying it was the lake of fire.
Hi Tony
The 'bad enough' was wood, hay and stubble....garbage that cannot stand the test of the day, i.e. the fire of the light, as Jesus' eyes of fire lay all things bare (in my view). All they had to do was assert their righteousness, that was bad enough- "if you were blind, you would have no sin- because you say you see your sin remains". While I agree that Gehenna was a literal place- so also is Jerusalem, yet we have come to Zion and to the heavenly Jerusalem, and the many prophecies concerning Jerusalem, our mother, from above, who is free, who is coming down out of heaven- a city with foundations, made without hands, etc. ....... these same prophetic illustrations or parallels may apply to Gehenna, for I do believe that Jesus accompanied these threats with the exclamation, "Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come". This "orge"(wrath) or 'reaching forth/passion', against those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" is, again, in my view, similar to the orge manifest against the angels in Jude, who "left their proper dominion" and are held in chains, reserved for sentencing, (as I see it) for their date with the LOF. Are you saying that God raises the dead to the GWT judgment just to "kill" all over again the ones whose names are not written in the Lamb's book? Have I misunderstood? Are you an annihilationist?....peace John
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is an uncovering for the overcomer, it is showing and telling those who have ears to hear, this is the way. It is lit by fire, and as fire thrusts its way through the stubble, hay and wood. The Book will cause the wisdom of the wise to stumble and grope in the darkness of the frail mind of man.
Isa 35:5 Then opened are eyes of the blind, And ears of the deaf are unstopped,
Isa 35:6 Then leap as a hart doth the lame, And sing doth the tongue of the dumb, For broken up in a wilderness have been waters, And streams in a desert.
Quote from: Tony N on May 22, 2010, 02:58:49 AM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition.
So, he spoke literally, not Spiritually? :coffee2:
The state of dying has always been obscured by mystery or superstition; its precise definition
remains controversial, differing in accordance to the culture or legal systems of men.
Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition
Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1 And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2 and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:
Mat 18:1 At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire. This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.
`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
(Mat 10:28)
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 22, 2010, 04:48:27 AM
Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition
Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1 And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2 and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:
Mat 18:1 At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire. This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.
Thanks micah,
The sermon on the mount, though spoken to His disciples was concerning the rules which will be in force for all Jews during the millennium.
Here is something of interest:
Isa 66:23-24 And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh." (24) And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."
The above verse is not for the disciples. They are not the ones who are required to bring the monthly quota to Jerusalem but the nations. And look what happens to those who transgress.
But the above threats are not about the lake of fire.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 22, 2010, 06:09:29 AM
`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
(Mat 10:28)
Correct eaglesway, Gehenna, not the lake of fire. By "soul" in the verse you quote I believe it is concerning the enjoyment of the blessings being cut off and their bodies being destroyed in Gehenna. But I believe they are not killed IN Gehenna but prior to that and that there dead bodies are then dumped into Gehenna to be disposed of as rubbish.
Gehenna is not about the lake of fire.
And the believer who builds improperly on the foundation wood, hay, stubble, their works will be burned up yet they shall be saved yet thus AS through fire. It doesn't say they will be saved through fire but as it were through fire. It is a figure of speech. You dig man? You hip to my trip? :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on May 22, 2010, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 22, 2010, 04:48:27 AM
Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition
Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1 And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2 and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:
Mat 18:1 At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire. This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.
Thanks micah,
The sermon on the mount, though spoken to His disciples was concerning the rules which will be in force for all Jews during the millennium.
Here is something of interest:
Isa 66:23-24 And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh." (24) And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."
The above verse is not for the disciples. They are not the ones who are required to bring the monthly quota to Jerusalem but the nations. And look what happens to those who transgress.
But the above threats are not about the lake of fire.
I believe it is.
Hi Tony
I think I see where you're coming from. Ever read Sir Anthony Buzzard?
However, I don't see the need for your distinction(as to when they are killed) since the verse says destroy(apollumi) the body and soul in Gehenna. The soul, according to your own perspective(not mine), ceases to exist when a person is "killed", so if they are killed before being tossed into Gehenna the soul cannot be destroyed in Gehenna- making Jesus incorrect or careless in expression.
However, if the soul is destroyed IN Gehenna, just as it reads- then Gehenna may represent something like the LOF, or the LOF itself- where the worm(O worm Jacob) does not die and the fire is not quenched(also a figure).
Also, the expression "as passing through fire" is a figure of speech- agreed. What the figure represents may be disagreed upon. He will separate the wheat from the chaff( I believe chaff and wood, hay & stubble are the same) and burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. That fire is the light of day that consumes the darkness(1 Cor 3:13-15).
The chaff comes off the kernel- you and I are each the wheat and the chaff. We have to be separated by a good beating with the winnowing fork so that the chaff (which when still intact makes us unusable) can be knocked off, blown away by the fan, and burned.
Then the remaining kernel of wheat can be made into bread or whatever(becomes usable).
In planting, the chaff is dealt with when the life within the kernel burst through the chaff, cracking it. The seed grows and again the chaff is cast off, consumed by the earth. There is no multiplication of chaff, it just contains the precious incorruptible seed.
I don't see how the annihilation position fulfills Eph 1:10, Col 1:15-20, Rev 5:13, Phil 2:9-1, Rom. 11:32-36 and a bunch of other verses. I have some close friends who are biblical unitarians and have studied the view for annihilation pretty thoroughly- I don't agree. Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on May 22, 2010, 03:29:21 PM
Hi Tony
I think I see where you're coming from. Ever read Sir Anthony Buzzard?
However, I don't see the need for your distinction(as to when they are killed) since the verse says destroy(apollumi) the body and soul in Gehenna. The soul, according to your own perspective(not mine), ceases to exist when a person is "killed", so if they are killed before being tossed into Gehenna the soul cannot be destroyed in Gehenna- making Jesus incorrect or careless in expression.
However, if the soul is destroyed IN Gehenna, just as it reads- then Gehenna may represent something like the LOF, or the LOF itself- where the worm(O worm Jacob) does not die and the fire is not quenched(also a figure).
None of the righteous will stand before the Great White Throne nor be cast into the lake of fire. So I doubt the disciples would have taken Gehenna to be the LoF.
eaglesway, just curious what you think about this quote:
"KILLING THE SOUL"AND be not afraid of those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him rather Who is able to destroy the soul and the body in Gehenna" (Matt.10:28).
"The Lord's disciples would have little difficulty in understanding this scripture from their viewpoint: our inability arises from the attempt to adjust it to our standpoint.
"Strictly speaking, the soul cannot be "killed." It is only in figurative expressions in which the person is denoted by the "soul" that it is said to "die." It is notable that even in this passage God does not say that He is able to kill the soul, but to destroy it. At death the soul returns to the unseen. In fact, it has no separate existence. It is the effect of the union of body and spirit. When that union is dissolved the soul is no more. Sending it to the "imperceptible" is but another way of saying that it has passed out of existence so far as our senses are concerned.
"But the Lord's disciples would look at this statement from a practical angle. Should they be killed what would be their experience? Though they should die yet their next conscious moment, when the soul returns in resurrection, would be the bliss of the kingdom. All that men can do to them is to cut them off from further suffering and usher them into their reward.
"Not so with God. In the kingdom (and we lose much if we do not keep the kingdom constantly in view in reading the "gospels") death will mean much to those who deserve it. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in the fires of Gehenna, which will be the place of punishment in that age, but they will lose all the joys which the kingdom offers by the destruction of their souls.
"Those killed by men escape suffering and awake to bliss: those destroyed by God forfeit bliss and awake to suffering at the bar of the great white throne.
"Those who strive to enter that kingdom will have much need of this exhortation, for many, indeed, will enter the kingdom by way of the death of the body and the resurrection." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.17, p.378).
QuoteEaglesway wrote:
Also, the expression "as passing through fire" is a figure of speech- agreed. What the figure represents may be disagreed upon. He will separate the wheat from the chaff( I believe chaff and wood, hay & stubble are the same) and burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. That fire is the light of day that consumes the darkness(1 Cor 3:13-15).
That's an interesting way to look at it.
QuoteThe chaff comes off the kernel- you and I are each the wheat and the chaff. We have to be separated by a good beating with the winnowing fork so that the chaff (which when still intact makes us unusable) can be knocked off, blown away by the fan, and burned.
Then the remaining kernel of wheat can be made into bread or whatever(becomes usable).
In planting, the chaff is dealt with when the life within the kernel burst through the chaff, cracking it. The seed grows and again the chaff is cast off, consumed by the earth. There is no multiplication of chaff, it just contains the precious incorruptible seed.
What if we aren't wheat? What if we are rice? O.K. bad joke. I get the point.
Quoteeaglesway wrote:
I don't see how the annihilation position fulfills Eph 1:10, Col 1:15-20, Rev 5:13, Phil 2:9-1, Rom. 11:32-36 and a bunch of other verses. I have some close friends who are biblical unitarians and have studied the view for annihilation pretty thoroughly- I don't agree. Peace, John
I think we westerners have a different concept of "destroy" than the eastern mind. To them it meant to be loosed from a whole(some) situation such as a horse being let out of its corralle and left to roam on its own in the wilderness. It was be destroyed in the sense of falling over a cliff or dying of thirst or killed by a lion.
Those who enter into the second death are just dead, not annihilated never to be raised again from that death.
Hi Tony,
I agree that we have a different concept of "destroy" in the western mindset. This word "destroy" has had a lot of things written about it on the forum. Apollumi is used in some strikingly different ways in the 86 usages that come up when I search the N.T. usage in e-sword. For instance, in Mt 15:24 it is used of the "lost(apollumi) sheep of Israel". In Mt 10:29 He that finds his life shall "lose(apollumi)" it and he that "loses(apollumi)" his life for my sake shall find it. Most of the uses, however, communicate a meaning of death and dying. But in regards to killing the soul(tho I am not sure "kill" is the best translation of apollumi), I have a couple of observations.
If killing the soul is a complete loss of consciousness, why should one "fear" the second death. Why would it be better to have ones eye plucked out. But, if(as in my view) the destruction of the soul in the LOF has to do with the "tearing down of strongholds and imaginations that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God" then it makes more sense to me, because "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess". To resurrect people just to kill them again and then to resurrect them a second time later makes no sense to me.
Also, I believe that many righteous from the ages before Christ and some from this age who never heard His word will stand before the GWT, as it clearly states in Romans "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ".This to me is speaking of the GWT, for no other such "DAY" qualifies unto Romans 2:15,16. As it continues, God is no respecter of persons. For it is not the hearers of the law who are justified, but the doers. Those who obeyed having never heard, were a law unto themselves, showing the law written on their hearts, and will be as the sheep. Those whose conscience condemns them, who violated the law of God written in their hearts will be as the goats, and go into the LOF, until they bow the knee- come under subjection. When all is subject to Christ as Lord, he will return all thngs to the Father and all rule power and authority will be abolished, because God will be all in all in a universal harmony of free wills.
Also, (in my view) those believers who do not abide and persevere in Christ will "lose their reward"(1 Cor 3:12-17) IMO this reward is escaping the "hour of trial"(GWT) that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth. These who lose their reward will be kicked back to the second resurrection and the GWT, saved but as through the flames(flames = krisis, tribunal, judgment, discernment....His eyes are as flames of fire...He tries the reigns and the hearts....all things are laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do) They do not go into the LOF-but they lose something in the tribunal. Only the overcomers in Christ will participate in the first resurrection(this is the patience of the saints).
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile(phtheiro) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(phtheiro-wither, waste, ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(1Co 3:15-17)
better translation- "If any man ruin/wither God's temple God will ruin/wither Him".
Paul's statement , taken in the proper context with preceding verses, concerns false teachers, not smokers ;o)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered(xeraino- shrivel, wither, dessicate); and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:6) I think this is similar- not speaking of the LOF, but of the krisis examination wherein we lose reward before the judgement seat of Christ,
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
We see through a glass darkly, and the same fuzzy images may appear one way to one....another way to another.
This is all by way of explaining myself, not by way of trying to convince you of anything. If anything I write resonates, great. I assure you I read your posts with an openess to such a resonance as well. Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on May 23, 2010, 06:56:01 PM
Hi Tony,
If killing the soul is a complete loss of consciousness, why should one "fear" the second death. Why would it be better to have ones eye plucked out. But, if(as in my view) the destruction of the soul in the LOF has to do with the "tearing down of strongholds and imaginations that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God" then it makes more sense to me, because "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess". To resurrect people just to kill them again and then to resurrect them a second time later makes no sense to me.
Tony replied: Hi eaglesway, It it interesting that we do agree on so much. My take on this is Jesus wasn't talking about the second death when He spoke about destroying soul and body in Gehenna. He was talking about Gehenna. Gehenna is in play only during the millennium. The LoF comes at the end of the millennium. Neither does the LoF have to do with "tearing down strongholds and imaginations." That has to do with the weapons of our warfare: "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful to God toward the pulling down of bulwarks; pulling down reckonings and every height elevating itself against the knowledge of God, and leading into captivity every apprehension into the obedience of Christ," (2Cor.10:4,5).
God is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death. So the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?
Also, (getting back to Ray Prinzing) Ray said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine, someone standing before the GWT and the Lord saying, "Have I got a deal for you! The second death is soooo much greater than the first death."
Litigent: Um, Lord, I didn't think the first death was so great.
Lord: Well, it wasn't. But the second death will be so much better.
Litigent: How can one death be better than another death?
Lord: Well, in the first death you just sort of died but in the second death you are really, really going to die in a much better way than the first.
Litigent: How is that possible?
Lord: In the second death you won't really be dead.
litigent: That sounds odd. Why is it called "death" then?
Lord: Well, I guess I wasn't thinking it through when I told John.
Litigent: That's assuring.
Lord: Anyway, while you are dead you will actually be alive to learn righteousness.
Litigent: I don't want to learn righteousness.
Lord: That's because you are dead.
Litigent: But won't I be dead when I'm dead again?
Lord: Yes *blush* but, umm, *blush* you'll be dead alive.
Litigent: Dead alive?
Lord: *blush* well, um, yea. Just trust me on this one. You'll just be spiritually dead.
litigent: Wasn't I spiritually dead the first time?
Lord: *blush* Look, I just make the rules here!
Quoteeagle wrote: Also, I believe that many righteous from the ages before Christ and some from this age who never heard His word will stand before the GWT, as it clearly states in Romans "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ".This to me is speaking of the GWT, for no other such "DAY" qualifies unto Romans 2:15,16. As it continues, God is no respecter of persons. For it is not the hearers of the law who are justified, but the doers. Those who obeyed having never heard, were a law unto themselves, showing the law written on their hearts, and will be as the sheep. Those whose conscience condemns them, who violated the law of God written in their hearts will be as the goats, and go into the LOF, until they bow the knee- come under subjection. When all is subject to Christ as Lord, he will return all thngs to the Father and all rule power and authority will be abolished, because God will be all in all in a universal harmony of free wills.
The sheep and goat analogy is reserved only for those who mistreated Christ's brethren when He comes back to judge those nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation (Matt.25:31-46). That judgment is not about the GWT. Also, no one ever perfectly did the law aside from Christ. Paul lumps those with law and those without law to all be under sin and all sinned and want of the glory of God and none are righteous he wrote (Romans 3:9-20). The remedy for their condition is given in Romans 3:21,22 and Romans 5:18,19. The remedy given is not the great white throne nor Gehenna.
Quoteeagle wrote: Also, (in my view) those believers who do not abide and persevere in Christ will "lose their reward"(1 Cor 3:12-17) IMO this reward is escaping the "hour of trial"(GWT) that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth. These who lose their reward will be kicked back to the second resurrection and the GWT, saved but as through the flames(flames = krisis, tribunal, judgment, discernment....His eyes are as flames of fire...He tries the reigns and the hearts....all things are laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do) They do not go into the LOF-but they lose something in the tribunal. Only the overcomers in Christ will participate in the first resurrection(this is the patience of the saints).
As to the Uncircumcision believers: "There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." While they may lose a reward they cannot lose their eonian life for it was gratuitously given and so was never earned and cannot be lost due to not doing such and such. I think you are confusing the Circumcision believers with those of the Uncircumcision when you write about "the overcomers." If they do not remain faithful to the end they cannot be saved (for eonian life.)
Quoteeagle wrote: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile(phtheiro) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(phtheiro-wither, waste, ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(1Co 3:15-17)
better translation- "If any man ruin/wither God's temple God will ruin/wither Him".
Paul's statement , taken in the proper context with preceding verses, concerns false teachers, not smokers ;o)
Yes! In the Concordant Literal the word there in 1 Cor.3:15-17 is not 'destroy' but "corrupt." The CLNT uses
appolumi for "lose" and "destroy" and "perish." and
phtheiro for "corrupt". So if anyone corrupts the temple made up of the plurality of believers, God will be corrupting that individual. Such an individual is corrupted in this lifetime. This is not talking about someone corrupting ones personal body by smoking or drugs or whatever as you well note.
The person whose work is burned up is a different event from the one who corrupts the temple of believers. That event of works being burned up takes place after the resurrection of the believers and then they stand before the bema or platform of Christ, not the great white throne.
Quoteeagle wrote: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered(xeraino- shrivel, wither, dessicate); and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:6) I think this is similar- not speaking of the LOF, but of the krisis examination wherein we lose reward before the judgement seat of Christ,
Tony's reply: Again the above in John 15:6 is concerned with the Circumcision believers, not the believers of the Uncircumcision a.k.a. believers of the nations. Also, I agree it is not concerning the LoF. The question though is: Do the men gather those people not abiding in the Vine and cast them into the fire or do men gather up dried up branches and cast those branches into a fire? and that is kind of like what Jesus was telling the disciples? And so Jesus uses those people as an illustration where "fire" could be something akin to a "fiery trial"?[/quote]
Quoteeagle wrote: "2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
This judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the
dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."
It is not the great white throne we must appear before.
Quoteeatle wrote: We see through a glass darkly, and the same fuzzy images may appear one way to one....another way to another.
This is all by way of explaining myself, not by way of trying to convince you of anything. If anything I write resonates, great. I assure you I read your posts with an openess to such a resonance as well. Peace, John
That's cool. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on May 24, 2010, 06:26:04 PMGod is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death.
So instead of resurrecting and instantly kill people, He resurrects them passes judgement and 5 minutes later He kills them again?
QuoteSo the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?
When exactly do they learn righteousness?
QuoteAlso, (getting back to Eby) Eby said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine
Can you imagine that you didn't fully grasp what Eby wrote? (Or others that view LoF differently that you)
Reading this remark from you "(as if the second death meant just spiritual death)" the answer likely is yes.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 24, 2010, 08:12:13 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 24, 2010, 06:26:04 PMGod is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death.
QuoteWW replied: So instead of resurrecting and instantly kill people, He resurrects them passes judgement and 5 minutes later He kills them again?
Tony's reply: 4 minutes and 35.4 seconds later to be precise.
QuoteTony wrote: So the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?
QuoteWW replied: When exactly do they learn righteousness?
Tony's reply: I doubt they will have to learn righteousness. When they are resurrected from the second death they will automatically be righteous, immortal and incorruptible and God will be All in them. I will take it for granted you already know Romans 5:18,19, 1 Corinthians 15.
QuoteTony wrote: Also, (getting back to Ray Prinzing) Ray said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine
QuoteWW replied: Can you imagine that you didn't fully grasp what Ray wrote? (Or others that view LoF differently that you)
Reading this remark from you "(as if the second death meant just spiritual death)" the answer likely is yes.
Tony's reply: Actually, the proper answer is "No."
Ray wrote:
For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Poppycock. The Bible never says such. Death is not a friend. It is an enemy.
And here we have a most egregious misuse of scripture on the planet by Ray:
'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). As if Heb.2:9,14-15 is dealing with the second death that destroys death! The death in that passage is all about the death of Christ, not death itself. Gheesh!
You can view the whole post of Prizing here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.250
Quote from: TonyThis judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."
"dais" "judgment seat" [of christ]
bema christosG968
βῆμα
bēmabay'-ma
From the base of G939;
a step, that is, foot breath; by implication a rostrum, that is, tribunal: - judgment-seat, set [foot] on,
throne.G939βάσις
basisbas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō
(to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication)
the foot: - foot.
John 12:13:
"Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him,""branches" [of palm trees]
G902
βαΐ́ον
baion
bah-ee'-on
A diminutive of a derivative probably of
the base of G939;
a palm twig (as going out far): - branch.
G939βάσις
basisbas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō
(to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication)
the foot: - foot.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great,
stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"stand" [before God
G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish,
hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch,
stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein we stand[histemi], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 3
amazing grace...
Amen Molly.
28 Hither to Me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will be giving you rest.
Matthew 11
Hi Tony,
I see the great white throne occuring at the end of the millenial reign. To me making someone "re-enter death" is killing them again. In my timeline(which may or may not b correct), the first resurrection is for overcomers, the second resurrection is at the end of the 1,000 years and is for all the rest of the dead of all the ages. I have however considered that the judgment seat of Christ may be an occurrence that spans the millenial reign, separating wheat from tares. As I read the parables, it appears to be more universal than that- but I am open on the matter. I am not really that familiar with the writings of J. Preston Eby. Although I have read a couple good pieces by him, I find some of it to be speculative.
Again, I have considered the concept of Gehenna as occuring during the millenia...., altho I still definitely see spiritual implications to it, beyond the disposition of bodies- perhaps similar to Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting(aidos) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(Jud 1:6)
Peter uses this same term, concerning the present world being "reserved" for dissolution(luo) and ruin(apollumi) by fire
Also in 2 Pet 2:10-22 Peter uses this same concept of false teachers being somehow "reserved" for the great day and the judgment of God
Those who are in Gehenna may be reserved there upon further disposition.
"I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. "Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. "I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.(Isaih 66)
This seems to parallel Zechariah ch.12-ch.14 and and a few others like Rev 21:24, and Micah ch 4, which may concern the millenial kingdom, when "the mountain if the Lord will be raised above all the other mountains and the nations will say, 'Come let us go up to the mountain of the house of the Lord to learn His ways'...."
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD. "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
(Isa 66:19-24)
and Daniel-
"While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
(Dan 7:8-12)
It is clear that there are several manifestations of "the burning fire".
When those verses are combined with Peter's
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed(apollumi), being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away(veil in the heavens rolled back like a scroll) with a roar and the elements(elementary principles....same as Hebrews5:12, gal 4:3,8 and Col 2:8,20) will be destroyed(luo-dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed(luo- dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(luo) by burning, and the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:5-13)
Since the things that are invisible are greater than the things that are seen, I think there are many layers of destruction being defined in these scriptures- all by light and fire....all involving the corrective judgment of God, and manifesting in several distinct ways.
I have not really majored in apocalyptic time sequences, because the principles of how God judges are more important to me than the exact administrations of them. Above all, the testimony that God has created the world for His "kind intention"(eudokia)- the "good news"(euaggelion) of the reconciliation of all through the blood of His cross is my primary focus. I do find these things very interesting to discuss tho. Especially the relationship of light and fire and harmony to and darkness and water and chaos.
I do not believe the dissolving by fire of the present world (reserved for fire) is any different than the ruining of the world that was formed out of water and destroyed (apollumi) by water. The earth and its works and the "stoicheon/elementary principles"... the rudiments of this world will be subjected, burned and transformed. Exposure of the hidden motives and the revelation of love to the corporate consciousness of man is the eventual goal of all this till "God be all in all".
I do think your limiting of the tearing down of strongholds and casting down imaginations to the weapons of our warfare is a narrow view. In Psalm 2 we see that this is God's purpose through out the ages, as the rulers of this world "imagine a vain thing" until the Lord exalts His anointed one- even the dispersion at Babel fits this foundation.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psa 2:9-12)
Of course, many of these things defy our concepts of time, limitation and definition. When John saw, in Rev 5:13, every created thing worshiping the one who sits on the throne even the Lamb, was he seeing the future? or was He transported into eternity, a realm beyond time, into the fulfillment of all things.
Quote from: Molly on May 24, 2010, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: TonyThis judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."
"dais" "judgment seat" [of christ] bema christos
G968
βῆμα
bēma
bay'-ma
From the base of G939; a step, that is, foot breath; by implication a rostrum, that is, tribunal: - judgment-seat, set [foot] on, throne.
G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.
John 12:13:
"Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him,"
"branches" [of palm trees]
G902
βαΐ́ον
baion
bah-ee'-on
A diminutive of a derivative probably of the base of G939; a palm twig (as going out far): - branch.
G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"stand" [before God
G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand[histemi], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 3
amazing grace...
Molly, The Concordant makes a distinction between "thronos" and "bema" where "thronos" is "throne" and "bema" is "dais." Dais is a raised platform and "thronos" is the throne.
The believers of the nations will never stand before the Great White Thronos but will be presented before the "bema" or "dais" to receive rewards.
It is easy to just quote sources like you do and that is good for some things but it is better if you search these things out to see if they are so like the Bereans did.
The Great White Thronos is for those who are not in the body of Christ.
Quote from: TonyThe Great White Thronos is for those who are not in the body of Christ.
Yes, that's what I was noticing in my little study there. Thanks.
This idea that we are standing on something--the importance of the foot--where the foot is placed--a basis--determines relationship with Christ--the palm branches of peace and praise--the shoot moving out from the branch--we are standing on him, in him, on his faith, and therefore we will stand--
16And so the LORD says,
"I'm laying a firm foundation
for the city of Zion.
It's a valuable cornerstone
proven to be trustworthy;
no one who trusts it
will ever be disappointed.
--Isa 28
Quote from: tonyMolly, The Concordant makes a distinction between "thronos" and "bema" where "thronos" is "throne" and "bema" is "dais." Dais is a raised platform and "thronos" is the throne.
The believers of the nations will never stand before the Great White Thronos but will be presented before the "bema" or "dais" to receive rewards.
Tony, do you think also the believers are part of the great white throne?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? [1Cor 6:3]
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
--Rev 3
"throne"G2362
θρόνος
thronosthron'-os
From θράω thraō (to sit);
a stately seat ("throne"); by implication
power or (concretely)
a potentate: - seat, throne.
Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Molly, I don't think so. We are going to be so busy administrating the grace of God among the sovereignties and authorities among the celestial realms we won't have time for this life. If anything the Circumcision believers who remain on the earth may be involved in the GWT but I don't know.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 25, 2010, 04:36:59 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 04:30:39 AM
...but I don't know.
allelluiah
Just like you to concentrate on the negatives rather than the positives. You act as if I think I am a know-it-all. Believe me, I don't know it all. But for you to concentrate on that to the exclusion of everything else is, well, sort of puerile.
Getting back to the lake of fire . . . it is death . . . not life. It is not a learning experience. It is not God. It is not Father. We are not the lake of fire.
Quote from: tony...but I don't know.
well, It will be interesting for us if we are, because we have our instructions--
Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.And, for them--
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Actually, it is the second death, which does not exactly comprehensively express exact sameness to the first death. There may be differences. There is not a lot written.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 25, 2010, 03:53:48 PM
Actually, it is the second death, which does not exactly comprehensively express exact sameness to the first death. There may be differences. There is not a lot written.
eaglesway, look again at every occurrence of the word "second" in Revelation and you will see the "second" thing written about is not anything greater than the 1st.
In Revelation 4:7 is the "second animal" not an animal?
In 6:3 is the second seal greater than the 1st seal?
in 8:8 is the second messenger not a messenger? Is it greater than the 1st messenger?
in 11:14 is the second woe not a woe?
in 14:8 is the second messenger not a messenger? Is it greater than the 1st messenger?
in 19:3 is the second time greater than the 1st time? Is it a different time?
Likewise the second death is not a different death. It is death. It is the absence of life. It is for those not written in the book of life. They will not experience life because they are not in the book of life. They will be in a condition which is the absence of life. How much clearer can it be made? :dontknow:
Words express ideas. The limitation of ideas into which you confine certain words may or may not be correct. The definition you give to the word "death" is clear. It may not be incorrect in its most limited sense(as you use it). Yet, your understanding may not include all that the word expresses in the mind of the writer(the Holy Spirit), in various contexts. Correct within the limit of your parameter of understanding may or may not be complete, comprehensive understanding.
Just because you state that it is limited in such a way, does not make it so. The limit of your perception may re-inforce your understanding but it need not limit mine, if it is incomplete. It seems a bit like circular reasoning to me. I believe in the adhering to constraints of what is written- I just don't agree with your perception/interpretation of the writings on this issue.
So, again, I can only say that to raise people from death, just to judge them and kill them again(put them back into death) seems a little herkemy jerkemy to me .
If "death" is "death"- what is resurrection? What is the nature of this resurrection they experience only to be back into death? This resurrection is followed by a de-resurrection?Then followed by a re-resurrection?
I only ask these questions because I think the scriptures provide other insights and conclusions than the ones you have reached on this specific issue. They are rhetorical in nature. I am not asking for your detailed response to them. Peace, John
Quoteeagle wrote: So, again, I can only say that to raise people from death, just to judge them and kill them again(put them back into death) seems a little herkemy jerkemy to me .
Well let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts, and so God can look like a good Guy, let's them live in some sort of death state until they die again. What good this does for God or the billions escapes me. They are not vivified or given immortality so they will die again anyway. They will learn nothing about God if they are "spiritually dead." So God has these zombie billions cluttering his new earth which is supposed to be the greatest eon ever with billions upon billions of humans who hate God, have nothing to do with Him, and will surely muddle the last eon with their sinful ways. But hey, if you think my idea of death is herkemy jerkemy what would or should we say of your idea? How about Helter Slelter?
QuoteIf "death" is "death"- what is resurrection? What is the nature of this resurrection they experience only to be back into death? This resurrection is followed by a de-resurrection? Then followed by a re-resurrection?
Resurrection is the bringing back to life a dead person. It is not necessarily confiring upon one immortality because Lazarus was resurrected but died later. The Bible knows of no term like de-resurrection. These people will not be vivified or given life beyond the reach of death because that only takes place for these people when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 05:57:06 PMWell let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts,
Now also lets suppose for the sake of argument... :winkgrin:
Instead of letting them lose on the new earth God kicks them into LoF.
They are alive. They stay alive. They are aware. But they still have their bad habits. They hate God or simply don't know Him. Basicly they are exactly the same as they were when they walked on this earth. But in that lake they are thaught everything they need to know. Their bad habits get conditioned out.
They are refined. They are tormented (to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal)
And when they are clean they can leave the lake.
And what was the second death you may ask? Things that died in the Lake are: not knowing or rejecting God. All sorts of sinful thoughts and habits. So basicly the sinner died. Just as the chaff is beaten of the wheat and detroyed in the fire.
:2c:
Quote from: tonyResurrection is the bringing back to life a dead person. It is not necessarily confiring upon one immortality because Lazarus was resurrected but died later. The Bible knows of no term like de-resurrection. These people will not be vivified or given life beyond the reach of death because that only takes place for these people when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
"resurrection"G386
ανάστασις
anastasisan-as'-tas-is
From G450;
a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
G450
ανίστημι
anistēmian-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): -
arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
We know there is a 'first' and 'better' resurrection. This happens before the millenium reign of Christ and his saints. And, there is a second resurrection--the great white throne judgment.
But is there any indication of a third resurrection?
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 25, 2010, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 05:57:06 PMWell let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that God raises billions and billions of people who are not in the book of life, they are judged according to their acts,
Now also lets suppose for the sake of argument... :winkgrin:
Instead of letting them lose on the new earth God kicks them into LoF.
They are alive. They stay alive. They are aware. But they still have their bad habits. They hate God or simply don't know Him. Basicly they are exactly the same as they were when they walked on this earth. But in that lake they are thaught everything they need to know. Their bad habits get conditioned out.
They are refined. They are tormented (to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal)
And when they are clean they can leave the lake.
And what was the second death you may ask? Things that died in the Lake are: not knowing or rejecting God. All sorts of sinful thoughts and habits. So basicly the sinner died. Just as the chaff is beaten of the wheat and detroyed in the fire.
:2c:
Just for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.
These people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.
Notice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."
And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.
Can those in death learn anything?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you are going."
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 08:12:15 PMJust for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.
If so why you just keep repeating your same words (dead=dead) without answering what I wrote just for the sake of argument....?
I "showed" you death. Death of the old man. Dead of the sinful nature. Now don't attack me on words/verses but try to understand what I'm going to say in the paragraph just below...
The whole creation has always be in a book of life. Because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. That's Father plan. Agreed?
The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Sainst already have killed the sinner part (shed of the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.
QuoteThese people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.
Indeed they don't see life in the glorious Kingdom.
QuoteNotice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."
True. But neither does it say
what exactly dies in that LoF
QuoteAnd let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.
Can those in death learn anything?
Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.
You see, your argument/view solves absolutely nothing. People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.
That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are the going to be thaught rightousness?
QuoteEcc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And
that is what I'm trying to figure out.
/edit In case you misundertood. The
whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 25, 2010, 11:02:28 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 08:12:15 PMJust for the sake of argument let's suppose you are wrong.
QuoteWW replied: If so why you just keep repeating your same words (dead=dead) without answering what I wrote just for the sake of argument....?
I "showed" you death. Death of the old man. Dead of the sinful nature. Now don't attack me on words/verses but try to understand what I'm going to say in the paragraph just below...
The whole creation has always be in a book of life. Because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. That's Father plan. Agreed?
Tony's reply:
Revelation does not hint that "the old man was not found written in the book of life." It neither hints that "the sinful nature was not found written in the book of life."
If all creation had their names in the book of life they were erased:
Rev 3:5 '"The one who is conquering, he shall be clothed in white garments, and under no circumstances will
I be erasing his name from the scroll of life, and I will be avowing his name in front of My Father and before His messengers."
And there are those whose names are not even written in it:
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it,
everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.
And there are those whose names have not been in the scroll of life from the foundation/disruption of the world:
Rev 17:8 The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dwelling on the earth,
whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present."
So just because the lamb was slain from the foundation/disruption of the world as you say above does not automatically prove everyone's name in all creation was written in the scroll of life to be living in the final eon.
Rev 20:15 And
if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
If any person, not anything was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into death. He was cast into the absence of life.
QuoteWW wrote: The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Saints already have killed the sinner part (shed off the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.
That is all speculation. Show the verse which states the whole creation has a good inner part. I thought we were all sinners.
QuoteTony wrote: These people, not written in the book of life, (that means they won't have life) are cast into death.
QuoteWW replied: Indeed they don't see life in the glorious Kingdom.
Tony's reply: They won't see life, period, during the final eon.
QuoteTony wrote: Notice, it did not say "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are not in the book of life." Nor does it say that "all sorts of sinful thoughts or habits are cast into death."
QuoteWW replied: True. But neither does it say what exactly dies in that LoF
Tony's reply: Of course it does. THEY, WHOEVER, ANYONE = people, are cast into the absence of life.
QuoteTony wrote: And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.
Can those in death learn anything?
QuoteWW wrote: Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.
If Saul/Paul died it would have been his first death. Then when Paul died it would have been his second death. But his name is in the scroll/book of life not because he died a figurative death the first time and not because he died a literal death the second time but because God chose him before the disruption of the world.
QuoteWW wrote: You see, your argument/view solves absolutely nothing.
Actually my argument solves everything. You just muddy up the water with what I consider sophistry.
QuoteWW wrote: People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.
Tony's reply: Really? Is that what Revelation says?
QuoteWW wrote: That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are they going to be taught rightousness?
QuoteTony quoted to prove no one in the second death learn anything: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
QuoteWW replied: True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And that is what I'm trying to figure out.
It proves the lake of fire is not Sunday School if the dead know nothing.
QuoteWW wrote: /edit In case you misundertood. The whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake
So the whole person gets thrown into the absence of life and somehow this lifeless condition is supposed to change the person? or teach the person while in this lifeless condition?
P.S. I'm not yelling at you or fighting you. I just disagree with you.
HIS PRESENCE IS FIRE, HIS WORD IS FIRE, and HIS MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE, for the SPIRIT IS FIRE.
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, ... (1 Peter 1:6)
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it – afterwards, yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness... (Hebrews 12:11)
Cross reference:
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy... (James 3:17)
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
peacemaker
Hi Tony
Okay, then perhaps there is a third resurrection that the scriptures make no mention of when the people who are re-dead after the second resurrection are re-ressurected when Christ returns all to God so that God may be all in all. I get it.
I think it is possible you are wrong.
However, God is not playing the "good guy", if, as I see it, He is purging the wicked in the LOF. Actually, I think it is more the "good guy play" to just put them to sleep for a thousand years.
If the alternative to being in the first resurrection is sleeping through the first installment of aionian life then we are, as Paul stated, cursed above all men, who labor through the heat of the day to overcome, so that those who slept in life(awake oh sleeper, and arise from the dead) get to sleep again through the aions until a "third resurrection", occuring after Christ has subjected them, supposedly while they were "dead", then raised them to life. Why not eat, drink and be merry, for tomoro we die! Death, in such a context, is to be desired even by Paul. But if death holds more than simply,"absence of life", for life is more than the body, then it may be more like the saying.... it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Aionian kolassis has more meaning in this context- as I see it, than in your perspective. This of course is not about perspective, it is about truth. May God be true and everyman a liar, and as I have said a few times already- we see through a glass darkly. Peace, John
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
(Mat 25:41-42)
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
Rev 21:8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'
As I see it, If death and Sheol are cast into the LOF then there is no place for the dead to be dead, because the scripture you cited in 1 Cor 15 says death is the last adversary to be subjected. Therefore it is possible that the dead are all passing through the fire where the adversaries, including death and sheol are consumed and can no longer hold anyone. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. John sees this in Rev 5:13 and Christ is still on the throne, holding authority.
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 11:41:01 PMNotice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.
I see that differently. I, a person, am a combination of things.
A thing (piece of meat), "life-force" , personality (good part and parts)
Plus as I ended my previous post I'm talking about the complete man being cast in LoF. Meaning exactly as complete I am right now typing this message. And very aware of things.
QuoteQuoteWW wrote: The whole creation has a good inner part and a polluted sinner. (Wheat and chaff) The Saints already have killed the sinner part (shed off the chaff) so to speak.
All others are still dead because their sinner part hasn't died yet.
That is all speculation. Show the verse which states the whole creation has a good inner part. I thought we were all sinners.
Surely we are all sinners. But somehow, eventually, we will be no longer.
For me the sinfree me, is still me.
QuoteTony wrote: And let's suppose this fire is to cleanse the earth.
Can those in death learn anything?
QuoteQuoteWW wrote: Was Saul/Paul dead? Did he come alive? He wasn't exactly looking for salvation. But it seems Father has ways to convince people :happy3:
In fact whole creation will be alive at a certain point in time. A huge percentage is Saul at their death.
If Saul/Paul died it would have been his first death. Then when Paul died it would have been his second death. But his name is in the scroll/book of life not because he died a figurative death the first time and not because he died a literal death the second time but because God chose him before the disruption of the world.
I think you missed my point. You wrote that the sinner are 'dead' so they won't learn about God. What I'm tried to show is that dead people learn too.
QuoteQuoteWW wrote: People get resurrected, judged and killed again because they will pollute the earth.
Tony's reply: Really? Is that what Revelation says?
No, it is what you said.
QuoteWW wrote: That indeed solves the problem. Only nice Saints in the Kingdom and all happyness. For a short while....
At a certain point in time they (sinners/dead) get resurrected again. And guess what... they are still sinners ready to pollute the Kingdom. So when are they going to be taught rightousness?
QuoteQuoteTony quoted to prove no one in the second death learn anything: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
QuoteWW replied: True the daed no nothing. But that also changes absolutely nothing in God's plan. And that is what I'm trying to figure out.
It proves the lake of fire is not Sunday School if the dead know nothing.
Most people enter school knowing nothing and leave it knowing much more. Plus ofcourse it greatly depends on how you view what death in 2nd death is. With your type of dead; you are right there isn't a single learning moment in LoF.
Speaking about learning moments. When exactly the people that are cast into LoF will stop being sinners and become saints?
QuoteQuoteWW wrote: /edit In case you misundertood. The whole man/sinner; every molecule of him will be cast in LoF so it's not that God strips of sin and casts that in the lake and the rest of the man never enters the Lake
So the whole person gets thrown into the absence of life and somehow this lifeless condition is supposed to change the person? or teach the person while in this lifeless condition?
[/quote]Tony, we will never get anywhere if you keep replying like that.
I know you see LoF as 100% lifeless. I have no problem with that. But it's very counter productive to keep looking at things from that view. The reply you gave just above is a good example of that.
Again you conclude that I suggest that people on complete lifelessness possibly learn something.
By now you should know I never said they are lifeless.
QuoteP.S. I'm not yelling at you or fighting you. I just disagree with you.
Same here.
I didn't intend to answer agains after our few posts a few days back. We both stated our thing. We didn't agree. That's no problem with me. Everyone is allowed to have his/her view on things.
I also have to state I see both you, my, and other views as possibilities. I'm just showed/showing a possibilty.
But then a few messages later you make a statement like you proved your view and all agree on it.
And that's why I replied again and tried to re-explain. But reading your last remark it was a waste of time.
Quote from: peacemaker on May 26, 2010, 03:56:43 AM
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
peacemaker
The above is misquoted. It is past tense in the original and is talking about the Egyptian army of their horses and riders thrown into the Sea of Weeds after the Israelites crossed:
Exo 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously:
the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Exo 15:21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously;
the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. We are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 07:04:10 AM
Hi Tony
Okay, then perhaps there is a third resurrection that the scriptures make no mention of when the people who are re-dead after the second resurrection are re-ressurected when Christ returns all to God so that God may be all in all. I get it.
I think it is possible you are wrong.
Let's take this with baby steps.
There are not three resurrections. For there to be three resurrections there would have to be three deaths for the individual.
Here it is as plain as I can make it.
- humanity dies
- humanity resurrected to GWT
- Humanity dies again = 2nd death
- Humanity resurrected again to immortality
That is two deaths and two resurrections.
Now then, would you please explain why you think, under this paradigm, there are three resurrections?
Quote from: tonyNow then, would you please explain why you think, under this paradigm, there are three resurrections?
Not three resurrections for each person--but events where groups of people are resurrected.
First resurrection--the saints to rule with Christ in the millenium.
Second resurrection--the GWT where everyone else is resurrected at the end of the millenium.
Third resurrection?--if you say the second group are punished with death, are they resurrected again at some point? what scripture?
In your paradigm
First resurrection- those who are Christs at His coming
Second resurrection- All the remaining dead to the GWT
Third resurrection- Those who re-entered death at GWT when Christ returns all to the Father that God may be all in all
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2010, 09:38:45 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 25, 2010, 11:41:01 PMNotice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.
I see that differently. I, a person, am a combination of things.
A thing (piece of meat), "life-force" , personality (good part and parts)
Plus as I ended my previous post I'm talking about the complete man being cast in LoF. Meaning exactly as complete I am right now typing this message. And very aware of things.
O.K. let's take this with baby steps.
You say you are a combination of things. I say that combination of things which makes up the whole person is what that person is. John, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.
So are you now going to make "ALL WHO are dwelling on the earth EVERYONE whose name is not found written in the scroll of life" to just be parts of those people? I can just see them before the GWT:
Bill Clinton: Well Lord, it wasn't really me worshipping that beast. You know Yourself we are made up of parts. It was just a certain part of me that did it. So can't you just take that part and cast it into the LoF?
"God will have ALL MANKIND to be saved" will now, according to WW, not really mean "all mankind" since it doesn't in Revelation 13:8 but just parts of mankind.
WW, do you see where your sophistry is heading?
WW, only in a Clintonesque theology would just parts of a person be cast into the second death. That is so beyond what John wrote it boggles the mind.
For WW who said "I (WW) never said they are lifeless" he must conclude the "lake of fire is a second life."
Quote from: wwBy now you should know I never said they are lifeless.
I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire. The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames. The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.
The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.
So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?
Only good.
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 03:55:30 PM
I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire. The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames. The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.
The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.
So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?
Only good.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: wwBy now you should know I never said they are lifeless.
I think the burning bush of Moses might be a good example of the lake of fire. The bush is in flames but not consumed--that is, it is apparently unhurt by the flames. The bush isn't screaming in pain, turning black, turning to dust, --to all appearances, it looks untouched by the flames.
The LORD speaks to Moses out of the flames.
So, that would lead me to think that any 'torment' is emotional in nature and perhaps even self induced--as happens to Moses in the presence of the flames [you want me to do what? I can't do that.]--but what happens to Moses, a murderer on the lam, as a result of this encounter?
Only good.
:thumbdown:
Problem with your scenario: the fire of the burning bush was not called "death."
Quote from: tonyJohn, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."
Tony, these people who are resurrected for the GWT, don't you think they would have the resurrected body that we see with Christ when he appears to the disciples? Isn't this a different body--by definition--than the one we have now?
If that's the case, how do we know what would happen to this type of body in fire? Isn't it possible that death might mean something else to such a body? Could the resurrected body of Christ be 'killed'--as in, annihilated? Probably not, but it could be like the burning bush, in flames but not consumed.
I don't think the church has completely made up the classical notion of hell--although they seem to have used quite a bit of imagination in describing it. Wouldn't aionios separation from God be [a type of] death [to an immortal being]?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.--2 Thess 1:9
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 03:47:09 PM
In your paradigm
First resurrection- those who are Christs at His coming
Second resurrection- All the remaining dead to the GWT
Third resurrection- Those who re-entered death at GWT when Christ returns all to the Father that God may be all in all
And you see a problem with that?
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 04:26:11 PM
Quote from: tonyJohn, in his revelation did not say "parts of a person are to be cast into the lake of fire which is a lifeless condition."
Tony, these people who are resurrected for the GWT, don't you think they would have the resurrected body that we see with Christ when he appears to the disciples? Isn't this a different body--by definition--then the one we have now?
No. They are not vivified or given immortality nor incorruption at this point when they are resurrected to stand before the GWT. Christ is the firstfruit of vivification then they that are Christ's, THEN the consummation when the third group is vifified which would be the group in the 2nd death. The 3rd group gets vifified when Christ quits reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power is anulled and death abolished (see 1 Corinthians 15:22-28).
QuoteMolly querried: Wouldn't aionios separation from God be [a type of] death [to an immortal being]?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.--2 Thess 1:9
The eonian destruction away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
Notice, it says "everyone" not "everything." "sinful nature" is a thing, not a person.
But very much part of the person.
QuoteSo are you now going to make "ALL WHO are dwelling on the earth EVERYONE whose name is not found written in the scroll of life" to just be parts of those people? I can just see them before the GWT:
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO and no :winkgrin:
I say people are made up of parts. Just as a body is made from parts. Arms, feet, legs, etc
B
Quoteill Clinton: Well Lord, it wasn't really me worshipping that beast. You know Yourself we are made up of parts. It was just a certain part of me that did it. So can't you just take that part and cast it into the LoF?
"God will have ALL MANKIND to be saved" will now, according to WW, not really mean "all mankind" since it doesn't in Revelation 13:8 but just parts of mankind.
WW, do you see where your sophistry is heading?
I can see where you interpretation of it is leading....
QuoteFor WW who said "I (WW) never said they are lifeless" he must conclude the "lake of fire is a second life."
NO NO NO. A explained that so often by now.
Yes the person is alive. But the sinner part/habits/thoughts/whatever you like to called get teached out
BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?
Hi Tony,
I personally have no problem with it. I just disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures on a few points. You know, as we have been discussing previously. :winkgrin:
QuoteWW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?
If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.
Those dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.
When is the abolishment of the death they will be in? It will take place when Christ quits reigning, and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled. Christ reigns through the new earth so these people can't be made saints then. Sovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.
Quote from: TonyThe eonian destruction away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.
How is any mortal being destroyed aioniosly? Or, for that matter, kept away from the presence of the Lord aioniosly? I mean, if they're 'dead,' in the sense of unconscious, who cares?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.--2 Thess 1:9
QuoteRev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
Rev 21:8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'
As I see it, If death and Sheol are cast into the LOF then there is no place for the dead to be dead, because the scripture you cited in 1 Cor 15 says death is the last adversary to be subjected. Therefore it is possible that the dead are all passing through the fire where the adversaries, including death and sheol are consumed and can no longer hold anyone. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. John sees this in Rev 5:13 and Christ is still on the throne, holding authority.
Dear eaglesway, the phrase "death and hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death" where "death and hades" is a metonomy. Death and hades represents all held by it. Just as "God so loved the world" where "the world" is a metonomy of all the people of the world. Get it?
So let's replace "death and hades" a metonomy, with what they represent: "All humans held by death and hades, whose names were not written in the book of life, were cast into the second death."
They are not made alive again or vivified UNTIL Christ quits reigning, all sovereignties, authorities and powers are done away and the enemy death is abolished. This takes place beyond what John saw in his revelation.
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 04:55:41 PM
Quote from: TonyThe eonian destruction away from the presence of the Lord is not speaking of happenning to immortal beings. It is referenced to those mortals who were harrassing the Thessalonians.
How is any mortal being destroyed aioniosly? Or, for that matter, kept away from the presence of the Lord aioniosly? I mean, if they're 'dead,' in the sense of unconscious, who cares?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
--2 Thess 1:9
Those humans will enter into an "eonian extermination from the face of the Lord." Their extermination is pertaining to the eon or eons as the case may be.
Quote from: tonySovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.
I don't have any problem with this. Except, why resurrect them for the GWT in the first place, only to annihilate them again? Why not just leave them dead until the end of the eons and then resurrect them?
And, once they are resurrected at the GWT, why aren't they now immortal beings?
Wasn't Adam's potential immortality--which these resurrected have now achieved--the reason for being thrown out of the garden in the first place?
They could not be resurrected at all without Christ, could they? This is the difference between these GWT folks and Adam. These GWT folks are resurrected after Christ's work on the cross.
It makes no sense to me that you would actually resurrect all the dead only to annihilate them again. For what purpose?
This is not Lazarus who was dead for four days. This is people who have been dead for thousands of years in some cases. I think it makes more sense that the lake of fire is a solution to handling those who are now resurrected but still spiritually dead to Christ.
"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." --Gen 3
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 05:19:48 PM
Quote from: tonySovereignties, authorities and power are still in force on the new earth so they can't be made saints then. Those in the 2nd death must wait for Christ to quit reigning and sovereignties, authorities and powers and death to be abolished. That happens at the end of the eons.
I don't have any problem with this. Except, why resurrect them for the GWT in the first place, only to annihilate them again? Why not just leave them dead until the end of the eons and then resurrect them?
Tony's reply:
But it isn't "only to annihilate them again." It is to judge them. It is to set them straight. If any learning is to take place it is prior to entering into death again.
Why doesn't God wait to judge the believer at the end of the eons?
1Co 11:32 "Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged. And we later must stand before the dais of Christ to receive rewards. And then you and I and other believers will receive applause from God:
1Co 4:5 "So that, be not judging anything before the season, till the Lord should be coming, Who will also illuminate the hidden things of darkness and manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then applause will be coming to each one from God."
Isn't that nice?
QuoteMolly asked: And, once they are resurrected at the GWT, why aren't they now immortal beings?
Why wasn't Lazarus immortal when resurrected from the dead by our Lord? Why weren't all who came out of the graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem after our Lord was resurrected given immortality? Because immortality is handed out at the proper time. Note 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. This is when each group will be given immortality.
QuoteMolly asked: Wasn't Adam's potential immortality--which these resurrected have now achieved--the reason for being thrown out of the garden in the first place?
Christ is the One Who was to first to received immortality or vivification, not Adam (1 Cor.15:23). The best Adam could achieve should he eat of the tree of life would be to "live for the eon" (Gen.3:22).
QuoteMolly wrote: They could not be resurrected at all without Christ, could they? This is the difference between these GWT folks and Adam. These GWT folks are resurrected after Christ's work on the cross.
It makes no sense to me that you would actually resurrect all the dead only to annihilate them again. For what purpose?
This is not Lazarus who was dead for four days. This is people who have been dead for thousands of years in some cases. I think it makes more sense that the lake of fire is a solution to handling those who are now resurrected but still spiritually dead to Christ.
Resurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.
"aionian extermination" seems like a Tonyism to me, not a translation, fits your paradigm tho.
Quote from: tonyResurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.
This is where I have the problem. The GWT are raised by Christ after his work on the cross. His work on the cross is to die for the sins of the world.
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.--1 John 2
So, now that we have the propitiation [the wages of sin has been contractually satisfied] and the resurrection of Christ, anyone resurrected at this point by Christ should be immortal. But, these GWT folks are still spiritually dead to Christ. They have Christ but they don't know it. So, they are being judged by their works, not his.
This is why I think they are immortal. And, why I think the reason for the lake is a kind of holding place for immortals who are still dead to Christ.
Otherwise, why call it a lake, a safe haven, a harbor?
But, either way, dead or immortal, they are safe. God is so good.
"lake" [of fire]
G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably
from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040
λιμήν
limēn
lee-mane'
Apparently a primary word;
a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
"haven"A harbor or anchorage; a port. A place of refuge or rest; a sanctuary.
`And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:31-33)
And these shall go away to punishment(kolasis) age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
(Mat 25:46)
Also, Tony I see that extermination is the CLV translation of olethros in 2 Thess 1:9.... I believe this is a poor translation, and is an interpretation. "destruction from" is "olethros apo",
olethros is from ollumi which comprises with 'apo' apollumi. The interpretion that this is about separation from the Lord would conflict with Rev 14:9-10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10)
The burning bush illustration Molly gave fits the verse in Revelation. I believe the olethros, whether it is 'extermination' or torment occurs from the presence of the Lord like a burn occurs from proximity to the flame.
Hence aionian olethros apo the ageduring ruin from (the presence of the Lord) should be parrallel in meaning with Rev 14:9-10
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 05:43:31 PM
"aionian extermination" seems like a Tonyism to me, not a translation, fits your paradigm tho.
Nice try eaglesway but no cigar. It is a translation:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "who shall incur the justice of
eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" Concordant literal New Testament
It is a Paulism and fits the Biblical paradigm.
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 06:03:02 PM
Quote from: tonyResurrection just means "upstanding from dead ones." It does not confer immortality. If the people before the GWT were given immortality by being resurrected then the lake of fire would not be a death for them.
This is where I have the problem. The GWT are raised by Christ after his work on the cross. His work on the cross is to die for the sins of the world.
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--1 John 2
So, now that we have the propitiation [the wages of sin has been contractually satisfied] and the resurrection of Christ, anyone resurrected at this point by Christ should be immortal. But, these GWT folks are still spiritually dead to Christ. They have Christ but they don't know it. So, they are being judged by their works, not his.
This is why I think they are immortal. And, why I think the reason for the lake is a kind of holding place for immortals who are still dead to Christ.
Otherwise, why call it a lake, a safe haven, a harbor?
But, either way, dead or immortal, they are safe. God is so good.
Who says the lake is a safe haven? Not John. He calls it death. Let's stick with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. John never says they are raised immortal and in fact Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, proves they can't be raised immortal!
And yes, Christ is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world. And yet we believers are still being judged and disciplined AFTER He died for us and AFTER we believe in Him. Again, I must bring to bear 1 Corinthians 11:32 "Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." So we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.
So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 04:50:40 PM
QuoteWW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?
If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.
Must have overlooked it. Sorry...
QuoteThose dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.
How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?
QuoteWho says the lake is a safe haven?
The word itself says it. The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror. But I gave you the definition of the word. Here's more--
"sanctuary"1.A sacred place, such as a church, temple, or mosque.
2. The holiest part of a sacred place, as the part of a Christian church around the altar.
3.Immunity to arrest afforded by a sanctuary.
4.A reserved area in which birds and other animals, especially wild animals, are protected from hunting or molestation.
QuoteSo we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.
So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?
Yes, we're being judged, but we're not dead. If we're dead, who cares? Judge away. It won't bother me or change me if I'm dead.
Hi Tony
Yea, I had already given you that in the post just above your 'nice try' post ;o). I looked up olethros(CLV extermination) and all of its occurrences. Actually Tony, I don't want to get lost in the slivers of details. Primarily, the context of the whole cloth as it is written in various selections of scripture establishes our understanding. As yet, I don't see the continuity in your paradigm, which is 'a paradigm', not necessarily 'the biblical paradigm'. Paul's paradigm is most certainly the biblical paradigm and what is at issue is our understanding of it. Paul's paradigm certainly contained a principle of discipline unto submission. What we are discussing on as far as I can tell, are the details of the hows and whens.
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 06:32:13 PM
QuoteWho says the lake is a safe haven?
The word itself says it. The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror. But I gave you the definition of the word.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
3041 li,mnh limne {lim'-nay}
Meaning: 1) a lake
Origin: probably from 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore);; n f
A ocean sounds dangerous. But a lake has a more cozy feeling to it.
And near the shore. That for me means the swimmers can quite easily get out.
As opposed being dumped in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean
3040 limh,n limen {lee-mane'}
Meaning: 1) a harbour, haven
Origin: apparently a root word;; n m
Usage: AV - haven 2, the fair havens + 2570 1; 3
The root word of that lake is even more safe.
It's a harbor. A safe place. The average sailor wants to be in harbor during storm instead of the middle of the Atlantic.
So people are thrown in a fire at a safe place. It almost sounds like the ones are being protected instead of punished in LoF
Why a 'lake' of fire? Of the commentators we have consulted, none make any reference to this particular word, to its meaning or to the reason for its use. The Greek word translated 'lake' is limne. Parkhurst says that the word indicates a
lake of standing water, as opposed to a running stream, and
is so called from lian menein, [
'remaining very quiet'], so the Latin stagnum, a pool. Schrevelius reads limne, a port, harbour, haven, station, refuge, accusative limena; as if lian menei, because there the ships rest in safety; hence limenarches, harbour master. Limne occurs in the LXX in Psalm 107:30,
'haven', Psalm 107:35; 114:8, 'a standing water', Song of Solomon,
'fishpools'. The word occurs in the New Testament ten times and is always translated 'lake'. Apart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee, and the sea and lake of Tiberias, and in the Old Testament the sea of Chinnereth.
Quote from: wwApart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee,
Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it. I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 06:07:01 PM
`And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:31-33)
And these shall go away to punishment(kolasis) age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
(Mat 25:46)
Also, Tony I see that extermination is the CLV translation of olethros in 2 Thess 1:9.... I believe this is a poor translation, and is an interpretation. "destruction from" is "olethros apo",
olethros is from ollumi which comprises with 'apo' apollumi. The interpretion that this is about separation from the Lord would conflict with Rev 14:9-10
I think you are confused. 1st of all the CLV translation of 2 Thess.1:9 is excellent.
In Greek it is "olethron aionion apo" and translated is: "eonian extermination from." The elements of the word "olethron" are "whole-ruin" and the elements of apollumi are "from-whole-loose." Olethros is not derived from ollumi. The only thing both words have in common is the element for "whole." Many translations have "destruction" for olethron.
Quoteeagle wrote: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10)
The burning bush illustration Molly gave fits the verse in Revelation. I believe the olethros, whether it is 'extermination' or torment occurs from the presence of the Lord like a burn occurs from proximity to the flame.
Quoteeagle wrote: Hence aionian olethros apo the ageduring ruin from (the presence of the Lord) should be parrallel in meaning with Rev 14:9-10
Tony's reply: That can't be because the Rev. 14:9-10 is IN THE PRESENCE of the Lord and the Thessalonian verse is "FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord.
In Molly's example the fire did nothing to the bush. In the Revelation 14 verse the fire destroys them. They are tormented in the fire and sulphur only in the day the Lord destroys Babylon. This is not speaking of the lake of fire.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2010, 06:39:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 06:32:13 PM
QuoteWho says the lake is a safe haven?
The word itself says it. The word 'harbor' is a delight to the ears of any sailor, not a place of horror. But I gave you the definition of the word.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
3041 li,mnh limne {lim'-nay}
Meaning: 1) a lake
Origin: probably from 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore);; n f
A ocean sounds dangerous. But a lake has a more cozy feeling to it.
And near the shore. That for me means the swimmers can quite easily get out.
As opposed being dumped in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean
3040 limh,n limen {lee-mane'}
Meaning: 1) a harbour, haven
Origin: apparently a root word;; n m
Usage: AV - haven 2, the fair havens + 2570 1; 3
The root word of that lake is even more safe.
It's a harbor. A safe place. The average sailor wants to be in harbor during storm instead of the middle of the Atlantic.
So people are thrown in a fire at a safe place. It almost sounds like the ones are being protected instead of punished in LoF
Why a 'lake' of fire? Of the commentators we have consulted, none make any reference to this particular word, to its meaning or to the reason for its use. The Greek word translated 'lake' is limne. Parkhurst says that the word indicates a lake of standing water, as opposed to a running stream, and
is so called from lian menein, ['remaining very quiet'], so the Latin stagnum, a pool. Schrevelius reads limne, a port, harbour, haven, station, refuge, accusative limena; as if lian menei, because there the ships rest in safety; hence limenarches, harbour master. Limne occurs in the LXX in Psalm 107:30,
'haven', Psalm 107:35; 114:8, 'a standing water', Song of Solomon,
'fishpools'. The word occurs in the New Testament ten times and is always translated 'lake'. Apart from the five references in the Revelation, the
remainder occur in Luke's Gospel, 5:1,2; 8:22,23,33, the lake Gennesaret,
elsewhere called the Sea of Galilee, and the sea and lake of Tiberias, and in the Old Testament the sea of Chinnereth.
I'm sorry to have to bust your bubble but a lake is not a harbor nor a haven. It may have a harbor but it is not itself a harbor it is a lake. The two are not one and the same. This is getting very strange! :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 06:32:13 PM
QuoteSo we are judged in this life so as not to later be condemned when the rest of the world is judged.
So if this happens to us who are believers how much more so the unbeliever?
Yes, we're being judged, but we're not dead. If we're dead, who cares? Judge away. It won't bother me or change me if I'm dead.
The point you were making sweetie pie is why would God judge these people before the GWT since Christ already died for them. That was the point. Or did you forget your point?
Since that was your point I brought up the fact that believers are judged in this life AFTER the fact that Christ not only died for them but they believe He died for their sins. Do you understand that? Or are you just going to play games with me?
God is going to judge those before the great white throne BEFORE they are cast into death again. In spite of the fact Christ died for their sins. Christ did not die to keep them from needful, loving correction. Do you understand this?
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 07:21:00 PMI'm sorry to have to bust your bubble but a lake is not a harbor nor a haven. It may have a harbor but it is not itself a harbor it is a lake. The two are not one and the same. This is getting very strange! :happy3:
Not if you read what the article is about.... It does
not say lake=haven/harbor
It traces back the word that we know as being translated lake. Then the question isn't "Does harbor mean lake?" The question is "Is lake the best translation".
/Edit: Please anwer reply #335
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it. I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'. :o)
So Eagles don't like a sauna? :winkgrin:
But is it a lake with real fire and real lava? Or is it symbolic for something else. That's a very important question for this thead I think.
The nature of the lake may give us a better idea what it does. I makes a huge difference if it's filled with real fire or a HS type of fire.
"Brimstone" is an interesting word. It comes from THEION which is the neuter of THEIOS which in turn comes from THEOS. THEIOS is interpreted as "Godlike" or "divine," and THEOS is "God."
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2010, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 04:50:40 PM
QuoteWW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?
If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.
Must have overlooked it. Sorry...
QuoteThose dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.
How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?
It will be this fast: when they put on immortality and incorruption which will happen as fast as it does us, in the twinkle of an eye. :Sparkletooth:
When God is ALL in them they will have instant knowledge and wisdom for "in Him all knowledge and wisdom are concealed" (Col.2:3).
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2010, 08:33:52 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
A lake burning with fire and brimstone doesn't sound too safe to me, Yikes! I have seen a lake of molten lava....wouldn't want to take a swim in it. I think 'of' may be the imperative word in 'lake of fire'. :o)
So Eagles don't like a sauna? :winkgrin:
But is it a lake with real fire and real lava? Or is it symbolic for something else. That's a very important question for this thead I think.
The nature of the lake may give us a better idea what it does. I makes a huge difference if it's filled with real fire or a HS type of fire.
"Brimstone" is an interesting word. It comes from THEION which is the neuter of THEIOS which in turn comes from THEOS. THEIOS is interpreted as "Godlike" or "divine," and THEOS is "God."
Just as the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth in Revelation is not a real sword but represents the words coming out of His mouth, so the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.
Quote from: tonyso the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.
But, death is not a lake, nor would anyone ever use the words 'lake, harbor, or haven' to describe death. The closest would be, 'rest in peace.'
We talk of death as 'passed on,' 'passed over,' 'passed away.' No one would ever say, 'He's gone to the lake.'
So, the use of this word is communicating something new to us, a metaphor that we would not see in general usage.
The sword metaphor is more common, as we understand that words can be 'cutting,' or even 'cutting to the bone.' We say if someone insults us, 'that hurts'. Or if someone badmouths us, 'he stabbed me in the back'. Even Shakespeare acknowledges 'the pen is mightier than the sword', so certainly would be a sword coming out of the mouth of the Lord.
So--why
lake [of fire]?
If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.
Quote from: Yab Yum on May 26, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.
Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.
What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place? What if it just means "separation"? Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old. He was simply separated from the realm of God.
What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people? The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?
What if the purpose of death was to experience resurrection life and it is 'LIFE' that is the end of all things and not death at all? The message and purpose Jesus brought to us was not one of death, but one of life. Should that not be what we're reflecting to each other then? The life of Christ rather than the death of men?
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 09:12:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2010, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 04:50:40 PM
QuoteWW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?
If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.
Must have overlooked it. Sorry...
QuoteThose dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.
How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?
It will be this fast: when they put on immortality and incorruption which will happen as fast as it does us, in the twinkle of an eye. :Sparkletooth:
That's very good news for me. So basicly there is no bad time for neither saint or sinner? If the dead are dead op the TonyN type then it doesn't really matter. Ok they mis a party in Jesus' kingdom but they are not aware of it.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Yab Yum on May 26, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Quote from: Nathan on May 26, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place? What if it just means "separation"? Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old. He was simply separated from the realm of God.
Nathan, according to the Hebrew, Adam didn't die the day he ate. The curse was: to die shall you be dy
ing which is a process. This process God further spoke on when he told Adam that he will work by the sweat of his brow until he returns to the soil for "soil you are and to soil you must return." That dying process ultimately led to his death. He may have been separated from the garden but surely not from God because God continued to talk with him and the kids.
QuoteWhat if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people? The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?
Was carnality a person and was carnality not written in the book of life and was carnality cast into the second death? No.
Who says these people who are resurrected, judged and put back into death again are proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and live?
QuoteWhat if the purpose of death was to experience resurrection life and it is 'LIFE' that is the end of all things and not death at all? The message and purpose Jesus brought to us was not one of death, but one of life. Should that not be what we're reflecting to each other then? The life of Christ rather than the death of men?
Yes, very good points on that last quoted section. I think these people will experience death so that they can really appreciate what life will really be when it is given to them when they are resurrected out of the second death. Once God is All in all what a day of rejoicing that will be!
Quote from: Molly on May 26, 2010, 09:30:00 PM
Quote from: tonyso the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.
But, death is not a lake, nor would anyone ever use the words 'lake, harbor, or haven' to describe death. The closest would be, 'rest in peace.'
We talk of death as 'passed on,' 'passed over,' 'passed away.' No one would ever say, 'He's gone to the lake.'
So, the use of this word is communicating something new to us, a metaphor that we would not see in general usage.
The sword metaphor is more common, as we understand that words can be 'cutting,' or even 'cutting to the bone.' We say if someone insults us, 'that hurts'. Or if someone badmouths us, 'he stabbed me in the back'. Even Shakespeare acknowledges 'the pen is mightier than the sword', so certainly would be a sword coming out of the mouth of the Lord.
So--why lake [of fire]?
The many waters are nations:
Rev 17:1 And one from among the seven messengers who have the seven bowls came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the sentence of the great prostitute who is
sitting on many waters,
Rev 17:15 And he is saying to me, "
These waters which you perceived, where the prostitute is sitting,
are peoples and throngs and nations and languages."
Just as waters are nations so the lake is death.
Just as John saw a symbolic prostitute sitting on symbolic waters so did John see a symbolic lake of fire. He probably saw what looked like a lake burning with fire but it was all symbolic. Maybe a lake involves swiftness. Like when one jumps into a lake they enter the water instantly. With the lake of fire they are cast into it and the death following is instant with no suffering at all. Maybe I'm all wet? :icon_jokercolor
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 10:49:26 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on May 26, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.
Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.
It doesn't say "it is death for everyone else". Are the Adversary, beast and false prophet's names written in the book of life? By your own argument, if they aren't, they must be stone cold dead in the lake of fire - but they are alive in the lake of fire, being tormented.
:icon_flower: Tony, I am a strong follower of J.P. Eby's "Saviour Of The World Series " Lake of Fire
Its a real worth while read at tentmaker's Site
or JPEby's site
Having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water.
That He might sanctify her by the washing of the water of the word....
If I have washed your feet you are all clean, If I wash not your feet you have no part in me.
Hopefully we are all "all wet" :wink1:
I agree that the waters are symbolic of the nations and the lake of fire is also symbolic of something that surpasses our current ability to define.
Perhaps the second death and the experience of those who go into it, is also not quite so literal as you have proposed. In any case, I am happy to be "all wet".
We see through a glass darkly
Quote from: eaglesway on May 27, 2010, 04:24:07 AM
We see through a glass darkly
Yeah. I've been thinking about that. For the people of the first books, the glass must have been very darkly. As times passes by, more info is given and the glass clears up a little. But some new books like Revelation solve nothing. They just make the glass dark again. Likely Revelation needs an extra book with info to be understood. I think that book is on the bottom of the Lake. Perhaps we are discussing something that can't be known because the info simply isn't in the Bible.....?
Quote from: Yab Yum on May 27, 2010, 12:17:50 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 10:49:26 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on May 26, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.
Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.
It doesn't say "it is death for everyone else". Are the Adversary, beast and false prophet's names written in the book of life? By your own argument, if they aren't, they must be stone cold dead in the lake of fire - but they are alive in the lake of fire, being tormented.
To begin with, Satan is a super spirit being who is incapable of death, so how could the lake of fire be death for him?
Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary, beast and false prophet but it is said to be death for everyone else. So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?
WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along. Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father. The mind of man is limited at best. And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles. It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much. Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth? Who has clarity? Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right. Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.
I think the "benefit" of discussion is through people sharing what they see from where they are, but often times, when someone else sees something different, it becomes more of a debate and a demand for proof rather than edification and building of faith.
I totally agree with your perspective that the statment of vision being seen darkly was made 2000 years ago and hopefully, between then and now, that darkness has cleared considerably. Personally, I think what makes it dark again is the laboring minds concluding through logic. My mind is the veil that is what needs removed. When I set aside my reasoning, it uncovers what my spirit is seeing and there inlies the maturity of my relationship with the Father. But the first step is getting my mind out of way so my spirit can do the communicating.
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 03:18:23 PMAlso, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,
True.
QuoteSo how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?
True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day :laughing7:
But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo
WhiteWings Reply #360
"Likely Revelation needs an extra book with info to be understood. I think that book is on the bottom of the lake.
Perhaps we a discussing something that can't be know because the info simply isn't in the Bible.....?"
I believe the "extra book" is you or me or whosoever is receiving the fire in our lives today, now, as we walk.
We are opened daliy and we are read of, our works, this is happening now, can we hear? We are to grow from this reading..
....in spirit. I dont know how to even simply begin to explain how I understand words, like death and asleep so as to make
them understood by others, but The Lord has made me to hear them. Yes, we do see through a glass darkly and
Paul said we KNOW IN PART, the body must needs come together for the perfect/complete understanding.
1Co 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part,
and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
:2c:
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on May 27, 2010, 04:11:52 AM
:icon_flower: Tony, I am a strong follower of J.P. Eby's "Saviour Of The World Series " Lake of Fire
I'm so sorry to hear that. Here are some things I gleaned from what Eby wrote on the LoF found here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeofFire-Eby.htm I will put his remarks in italics:
Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion. The problem with Eby's thoughts above is that the fire is just symbolic. There is no literal lake and no literal fire. What is literal is the 2nd death. So everything he says as to being changed by the fire is a moot point and has no bearing on what John was trying to show us. It is just death and death is the absence of life. If they aren't found in the book of life then they are going to not have life in any shape of form.
What about the harlot that sat on many waters? John is informed that those many waters are nations. Why don't we make up a bunch of fanciful ideas about the water? We could say: Water usually has fish in it and is comprised of the molecules of one atom of Hydrogen and 2 atoms of Oxygen. It evaporates and freezes hard, it is wet, it is cool usually, and on and on we could go. But that is not what John was getting at.
Eby goes on to say:
Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:13-14 CLV (13) "And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. (14) And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."
The metonymy regarding "death and the unseen" is that it stands for or represents all the dead in them. Just as "God so loved the *world*" the word "world" is a metonymy for all the humans of the world.
Also the word "is" tells us there is usually a figure of speech when it is bold in the Concordant Literal New Testament. For instance when Jesus said of the bread: "this is My Body" He wasn't telling them that His body was literally bread and the same bold "is" is used in Revelation for "the lake of fire is the second death." John wasn't saying the second death literaly was fire nor "fire and brimstone."
Then he quotes Ray Prinzing who I believe is completely wrong on these matters but as my daughter always says: "whatever."
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 27, 2010, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 03:18:23 PMAlso, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,
True.
QuoteSo how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?
True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day :laughing7:
But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo
Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.
I think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.
It is a great and glorious day! :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 27, 2010, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 03:18:23 PMAlso, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,
True.
QuoteSo how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?
True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day :laughing7:
But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo
Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.
That's not (exactly) the defenition of the word.
QuoteI think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.
Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?
We are being tormented now--
2 Peter 2:8
(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—
Others will be tormented later [ in the lake of fire]--
Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
"torment"
G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
G931
βάσανος
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.
G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
--Rev 14
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 27, 2010, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 27, 2010, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 03:18:23 PMAlso, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,
True.
QuoteSo how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?
True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day :laughing7:
But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo
Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.
That's not (exactly) the defenition of the word.
QuoteI think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.
Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?
How could anyone possibly know. You'd have to go there in that future day and ask him what was tormenting him and he would probably lie about it since he is a liar from the beginning.
I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).
The sharp two edged sword of the spirit, living and active, coming out of His mouth- that'll do the trick
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Nothing is hidden that hall not be brought to light.
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)
the dragon in the deep is creating chaos......let there be light!
if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
clear water of life, fresh and pure, quenches the thirst for sure ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 27, 2010, 05:57:54 PM
I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).
The sharp two edged sword of the spirit, living and active, coming out of His mouth- that'll do the trick
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Nothing is hidden that hall not be brought to light.
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)
the dragon in the deep is creating chaos......let there be light!
Very good! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 06:40:38 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 27, 2010, 05:57:54 PM
I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).
Very good! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 27, 2010, 05:01:59 PM
QuoteI think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.
Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?
How could anyone possibly know.
It seems you know... Otherwise why the :thumbsup: ?
i was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer, (( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.
a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.
off topic? sorry.
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on May 27, 2010, 09:53:11 PMi was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer,
Can't be that bad chuckt with all those angles in your avatar :laughing7:
Quote(( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.
a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.
off topic?
That strongly depends on when you think the LoF is taking place and what it is...
Quote from: chuckt on May 27, 2010, 09:53:11 PM
i was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer, (( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.
a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.
off topic? sorry.
chuckt
Your name is written in the scroll or book of life so you surely can't or couldn't have been cast into the second death.
Quote from: Nathan on May 27, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along. Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father. The mind of man is limited at best. And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles. It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much. Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth? Who has clarity? Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right. Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim. 2:15
Though the mind of man is limited, especially the soulish man, the spiritual man knows that the mind is a necessary component to understanding God's will and way and truths.
(Luk 24:45) Then He opens up their
mind to understand the scriptures,
(Rom 1:28) And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified
mind, to do that which is not befitting,
(Rom 7:23) yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my
mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
(Rom 7:25) I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the
mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."
(Rom 11:34) For, who knew the
mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
(Rom 12:2) and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your
mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."
(Rom 14:5) One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own
mind."
(1Co 1:10) Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same
mind and to the same opinion."
(1Co 2:16) For who knew the
mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the
mind of Christ.
(1Co 14:14) For if I should be praying in a language, my spirit is praying, yet my
mind is unfruitful."
(1Co 14:15) What is it, then? Should I be praying in the spirit, yet I will be praying with the
mind also. In the spirit will I be playing music, yet I will be playing with the
mind also."
(1Co 14:19) But, in the ecclesia, do I want to speak five words with my
mind, that I should be instructing others also, or ten thousand words in a language?
(Eph 4:17) This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their
mind,
(Eph 4:23) yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your
mind,
(Phi 4:7) and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of
mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."
(Col 2:18) Let no one be arbitrating against you, who wants, in humility and the ritual of the messengers, to parade what he has seen, feignedly, puffed up by his fleshly
mind,
(2Th 2:2) that you be not quickly shaken from your
mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."
(1Ti 6:5) altercations of men of a decadent
mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."
(2Ti 3:8) Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding the truth, men of a depraved
mind, disqualified as to the faith."
(Tit 1:15) All, indeed, is clean to the clean, yet to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean, but their
mind as well as conscience is defiled."
(Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom. Let him who has a
mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
(Rev 17:9) Here is the
mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,
Quote from: peacemaker on May 26, 2010, 03:56:43 AM
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
The above is misquoted.
THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).
A horse of a different color:
"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."
QuoteWe are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.
That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.
peacemaker
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 02:31:05 AM
Quote from: Nathan on May 27, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along. Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father. The mind of man is limited at best. And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles. It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much. Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth? Who has clarity? Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right. Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.
I just dont think you understand at all what The Lord is saying. But thats just me. :2c: :sigh:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim. 2:15
Though the mind of man is limited, especially the soulish man, the spiritual man knows that the mind is a necessary component to understanding God's will and way and truths.
(Luk 24:45) Then He opens up their mind to understand the scriptures,
(Rom 1:28) And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting,
(Rom 7:23) yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
(Rom 7:25) I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."
(Rom 11:34) For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
(Rom 12:2) and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."
(Rom 14:5) One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind."
(1Co 1:10) Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion."
(1Co 2:16) For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ.
(1Co 14:14) For if I should be praying in a language, my spirit is praying, yet my mind is unfruitful."
(1Co 14:15) What is it, then? Should I be praying in the spirit, yet I will be praying with the mind also. In the spirit will I be playing music, yet I will be playing with the mind also."
(1Co 14:19) But, in the ecclesia, do I want to speak five words with my mind, that I should be instructing others also, or ten thousand words in a language?
(Eph 4:17) This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their mind,
(Eph 4:23) yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your mind,
(Phi 4:7) and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."
(Col 2:18) Let no one be arbitrating against you, who wants, in humility and the ritual of the messengers, to parade what he has seen, feignedly, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(2Th 2:2) that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."
(1Ti 6:5) altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."
(2Ti 3:8) Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding the truth, men of a depraved mind, disqualified as to the faith."
(Tit 1:15) All, indeed, is clean to the clean, yet to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean, but their mind as well as conscience is defiled."
(Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
(Rev 17:9) Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,
For Post 376 Tony N
OOPs! Put it in the wrong place the first time I guess.
I just dont think you understand at all, what The Lord is saying. But thats just my 2 cents :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 28, 2010, 07:45:34 AM
For Post 376 Tony N
OOPs! Put it in the wrong place the first time I guess.
I just dont think you understand at all, what The Lord is saying. But thats just my 2 cents :sigh:
I know, I've been trying to tell Nathan that but you say it much better.
Why is the second death for all the humans not written in the book of life but not a second death for Satan, beast and false prophet?
Because Satan, beast and false prophet never died a first death.
All humans not written in the book of life died the first death and now they must die again.
Quote from: peacemaker on May 28, 2010, 04:15:16 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 26, 2010, 03:56:43 AM
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
The above is misquoted.
THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).
A horse of a different color:
"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."
QuoteWe are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.
That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.
peacemaker
Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 28, 2010, 04:15:16 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 26, 2010, 03:56:43 AM
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
The above is misquoted.
THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).
A horse of a different color:
"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."
QuoteWe are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.
That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.
peacemaker
Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.
Plausibly?
"The death of Sin, not the person."
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that ... judgment, is a good thing.
Seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance.
peacemaker
Now for this very reason also, you must employ all diligence to supplement your faith with virtue, your virtue with knowledge [found in the Word], your knowledge with self-control, your self-control with endurance, your endurance with great devotion, your great devotion with brotherly fondness, your brotherly fondness with love! For if these things are continually possessed by you and continually increasing, they are designating you as being neither idle nor unfruitful with reference to your full knowlege or our Master Yesu. For whoever doesn't have these things present in him is blind, since this person has closed his eyes, having let escape his notice that he has been cleansed from his old wrongdoings. 2 Peter 1:5-9
Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.
quote from Tony
I am in agreement with this to some extent. However I do not see what criteria you are using to determine the difference between the metonymy and the literal. It seems reserved to your own opinion.
For instance, you use the example of "this bread is my body"
in this case the literal bread is the symbol of the body, the eating of it a symbol of the nature of our relationship as members of the body. The body is not literal, it is a symbol, as in "branches in the vine" and "living stones fitly joined to the chief cornerstone of the temple", of a larger spiritual realty.
Looking at "lake of fire which is the second death" you have determined that "lake of fire" is symbolic and that "second death" is literal-and you have also determined the exact nature of the experience described by the words "second death". I do not see, beyond your own opinion, the merit of that determination.
Going on to say that the vivifying of those held by death and the grave is the meaning of 'death and the unseen being destroyed'(which I agree with), it is nevertheless written, "It is given to men once to die and then comes the judgment". In my opinion the second death is a symbol for a second penalty of sin, even as death was the first penalty(remedied through faith in Christ). The symbol is connected not in re-experiencing the same experience, as you put it, "re-entering death", or as I would define that, being killed again. It is in the receiving of a second penalty of sin in those who have rejected the remedy.I described what I think(seeing through the glass darkly) that second death is in a former post(Blow torch of light consuming darkness, slaying Leviathan, exposing all that is hidden to the light etc.).
Death was the first penalty, including all its manifestations of the flesh and the old nature. Death reigned from Adam to Christ.
Now life has begun to reign and death is being swallowed up by immortality, including all its manifestations, specifically, the divine nature.
John sees the transition completed in Rev 5:13, which is simultaneous, I think, to 1 Cor 15:24-28
Quote from: peacemaker on May 28, 2010, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 28, 2010, 04:15:16 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 26, 2010, 03:56:43 AM
"THE HORSE AND HIS RIDER will be THROWN INTO THE SEA."
Quote from: Tony N on May 26, 2010, 03:27:45 PM
The above is misquoted.
THE HORSE (sin on which a person rides, sits, or exercises) AND HIS RIDER (death) will be THROWN INTO THE SEA (Lake of fire).
A horse of a different color:
"Let us not back the wrong horse; a mistake in judgment is fruitless."
QuoteWe are talking about the lake of fire being death, not a sea of weeds.
That would be the seed of tares, or the difference between gross and net weight.
peacemaker
Such sophistry as you write about above peacemaker actually puts a covering over the truth rather than letting the truth be revealed.
Plausibly?
"The death of Sin, not the person."
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that ... judgment, is a good thing.
Seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance.
peacemaker
Dear peacemaker, Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name. Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
Also, your kind-of-a quote from Hebrews "it is appointed for a man once to die and after this the judgment" is about the city of refuge and one must remain there till the death of the high priest and after his death, the judgment of that individual as to if he can go free or not.
Quote from: Nathan on May 26, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place? What if it just means "separation"? Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old. He was simply separated from the realm of God.
What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people? The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?
This is WAY above the most of the minds in Christ that dwell here
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on May 29, 2010, 05:19:33 AM
Quote from: Nathan on May 26, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place? What if it just means "separation"? Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old. He was simply separated from the realm of God.
What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people? The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?
Quote
This is WAY above the most of the minds in Christ that dwell here
With me it is WAY below my mind in Christ as I dwell here.
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.
"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."
A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.
quote from Tony
I am in agreement with this to some extent. However I do not see what criteria you are using to determine the difference between the metonymy and the literal. It seems reserved to your own opinion.
For instance, you use the example of "this bread is my body"
in this case the literal bread is the symbol of the body, the eating of it a symbol of the nature of our relationship as members of the body. The body is not literal, it is a symbol, as in "branches in the vine" and "living stones fitly joined to the chief cornerstone of the temple", of a larger spiritual realty.
Looking at "lake of fire which is the second death" you have determined that "lake of fire" is symbolic and that "second death" is literal-and you have also determined the exact nature of the experience described by the words "second death". I do not see, beyond your own opinion, the merit of that determination.
Going on to say that the vivifying of those held by death and the grave is the meaning of 'death and the unseen being destroyed'(which I agree with),
I never wrote that the meaning of "death and the unseen being destroyed is by vivifying those held by death.
What I did say though was that the second death is abolished by all being vivified according to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
QuoteNow life has begun to reign and death is being swallowed up by immortality, including all its manifestations, specifically, the divine nature.
John sees the transition completed in Rev 5:13, which is simultaneous, I think, to 1 Cor 15:24-28
John can't possibly see 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 completed in Revelation 5:13.
John sees Christ still reigning on the new earth and sees authorities, sovereignties and power on the new earth and still sees death on the new earth.
Paul sees beyond John's revelation by seeing Christ handing over the kingdom to the Father, sees Him quit reigning, sees all sovereignty, authority and power done away and death being abolished.
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 05:37:22 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.
"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."
A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."
I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.
We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.
Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.
The book of life is "you, me." Bro. you are oblivious of the meanings out side of your understanding, you are "stuck" in the wisdom of the Greek and can not move forward in the Good News; the maturing sons, the overcomer is free from your barriers, bais', and obstcales of learning. As long as you presume knowledge, you will gain no perspective of the unfolding of truth.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
--Eph 1
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 05:53:10 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 05:37:22 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.
"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."
A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."
I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.
We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.
Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.
Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.
peacemaker
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing, uncovering, unveling, manifeststion, apocalypse in those who are hearing, will hear what the Spirit is saying unto the called out. The resurrection, which is a "rising again," a continual happening as one hears from the awakening from asleep.
Death is a mankind, human being mark, those in Christ have no such thought for they are alive in Him. Death, is no value, has no fortune in the ovecomer, what is death verses the Life given by Christ...NOTHING. Whether that death is the lake of fire...WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH... has no merit. I am resurrected...rising again...and rising again...rising again..can you not understand that the resurrection is life.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Death is something the flesh, mankind, humanity must go through.
The last verse in Rv 20:15 KJV says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." This is the closest Scripture comes regarding anyone or anything else than death and hades, the beast, false prophet and the devil being in the lake of fire. Young's Literal Translation says, "And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 20:15 YLT) This "if" is in the Greek and this "if" is never answered in the text. It does not actually say anyone was found, neither was any number of them given. We actually have more warrant to speculate there were none found who were not in that scroll, all were written about, as adding to say it was any number up to the popular non-Biblical misconception that it is the majority of the human race. It is adding to the words of this scroll to say there was even one found. It's simply not written. We don't want the plagues of this scroll added to us because we added words to it.
In case there were some cast into the lake (not, "boundaryless ocean,") we are as justified to think perhaps they almost immediately died again upon entry into this 2nd death. This would perhaps be as much an addition to the actual words used here as to say they were tormented without ceasing.
If Jesus is the scroll of life it seems probable that none were not found written in it, that all were found written in it, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)
Quote from: reFORMer on May 29, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)
:thumbsup:
The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
Quote from: eagleswayIf a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
[never]
"see" [death]
G2334
θεωρέω
theōreōtheh-o-reh'-o
From a derivative of G2300 (perhaps by adverb of G3708);
to be a spectator of, that is, discern, (literally, figuratively
[experience] or intensively [acknowledge]): - behold, consider, look on, perceive, see. Compare G3700.
G2300
θεάομαι
theaomaitheh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension
to visit: - behold,
look (upon), see. Compare G3700.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 29, 2010, 06:47:43 AM
The book of life is "you, me." Bro. you are oblivious of the meanings out side of your understanding, you are "stuck" in the wisdom of the Greek and can not move forward in the Good News; the maturing sons, the overcomer is free from your barriers, bais', and obstcales of learning. As long as you presume knowledge, you will gain no perspective of the unfolding of truth.
No, we are not the book of life, literally "scroll of life." Our
names are in the scroll of life. Whoever's
name was not found in the scroll of life was cast into the absence of life. I am sorry you have to resort to pandering to ad hominums as if it proves anything. Instead of replying in kind to your ad hominum I'll just pray for you.
You glorify death. You make the second death a friend. You call darkness light and night day. Death is an enemy.
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 07:10:11 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 05:53:10 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 05:37:22 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.
"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."
A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."
I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.
We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.
Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.
Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.
peacemaker
Of course it's speaking of physical death. The 1st death all mankind experienced will be experienced again in a 2nd death.
The "Lake" of Galilee is not the absence of life. It is wet, not fiery. :BangHead:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 29, 2010, 07:11:26 AM
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing, uncovering, unveling, manifeststion, apocalypse in those who are hearing, will hear what the Spirit is saying unto the called out. The resurrection, which is a "rising again," a continual happening as one hears from the awakening from asleep.
Death is a mankind, human being mark, those in Christ have no such thought for they are alive in Him. Death, is no value, has no fortune in the ovecomer, what is death verses the Life given by Christ...NOTHING. Whether that death is the lake of fire...WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH... has no merit. I am resurrected...rising again...and rising again...rising again..can you not understand that the resurrection is life.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Death is something the flesh, mankind, humanity must go through.
Death, the second death, is something all mankind whose names are not found in the scroll of life must be CAST INTO, not something they go through. They must be CAST INTO the absence of life.
I have no problem with what you wrote above the Revelation 20:6 verse you quoted.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 09:03:12 AM
The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.
And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg: I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:26:21 PMImagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?
QuoteSo these people who are already "spiritually death" somehow get cast into spiritual death again
Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 29, 2010, 02:36:08 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:26:21 PMImagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
QuoteWW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?
Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.
QuoteTony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again
QuoteWW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.
Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.
Also a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
QuoteWW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?
Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.
I think a better comparison is summer school. The kids that messed up during the regular school year (=life) are in summer school; while the good students (=saints) are enjoying the summer in the Kingdom of the Son.
So we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being realy very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school.
QuoteQuoteTony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again
QuoteWW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.
Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.
Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.
QuoteAlso a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.
Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:14:24 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 07:10:11 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 05:53:10 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 05:37:22 AM
Quote from: Tony N on May 28, 2010, 08:43:39 PM
Sin did not die a first death therefore it cannot die a second death. Sin does not have a name.
Revelation says "whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Sin is not a "who" but an "it."
A man's actions are determined by the state or condition of his heart, and the soul that sins is always conscious that [its] sin is intrinsically worthless, which is in need of correction. Let's not "muddy" the water by playing charade's. There is no man that sins not, and very few who overcome in this life. But all will come to the knowledge of the truth (each in their own era), as death comes upon all men. So likewise does the "Resurrection" of the dead.
"We are not raised from a second grave, or a penalty box."
A harbor of fresh water provides shelter from the wind, waves, and currents of the open sea of humanity.
A haven in time of storms, "Ye of little faith."
I'm not playing any charades nor muddying the waters.
All those whose names are not in the book of life will enter into death which is the absence of life. Therefore they have to be resurrected out of that death in order to be saved.
We aren't talking about fresh water here nor wind nor waves or currents of any sea. We are talking about death which is the absence of life. Whatever fanciful ideas you want give to the lake of fire beyond what John was inspired to give you must come back to the conclusion that whatever the lake of fire is it is definately DEATH and DEATH is the absence of life.
Once they are dead they can't resurrect themselves so God has to do it.
Death is the absence of life, however, this is not speaking of physical death.
You might want to consider, or give some thought to the "Lake" of Galilee.
Of course it's speaking of physical death. The 1st death all mankind experienced will be experienced again in a 2nd death.
The "Lake" of Galilee is not the absence of life. It is wet, not fiery. :BangHead:
The SPIRIT of FIRE moves upon the face of the waters. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 06:51:51 PMIf any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead=dead as TonyN wants us to believe.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 29, 2010, 07:11:52 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 06:51:51 PMIf any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead = dead as TonyN wants us to believe.
Uncompromising Literalism.
"And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it..." This is not speaking of physical water, as in the world's oceans. :coffee2:
Hi All,
Have been babysitting and I haven't been able to post lately, have been reading a little now and then though.
Quote from: Tony N
And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and[
Those who are spiritually dead, who don't know Christ, will be made alive in the lof. As WhiteWings said, all of the bad works will die, not the person themselves. The second death is the death of our old man, our bad WORKS.
Quote from: Tony N
Death, the second death, is something all mankind whose names are not found in the scroll of life must be CAST INTO, not something they go through. They must be CAST INTO the absence of life.
Yes, those who are not in Christ will experience the second death,... death of their own ways, works...then they will become alive in Christ.
Quote from: Tony N
No, we are not the book of life, literally "scroll of life." Our names are in the scroll of life. Whoever's name was not found in the scroll of life was cast into the absence of life. I am sorry you have to resort to pandering to ad hominums as if it proves anything. Instead of replying in kind to your ad hominum I'll just pray for you.
I believe Christ is the book of life. That is why those who are not found in Christ will experience the lof.
I was thinking, :Chinscratch: since John was an apostle to the Jew's and his message was mostly to the Jew's. John taught New Covenant which had works attached to it,...works will be burned up. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, his message was to the Jew first but Paul left off preaching to the Jew and went to the Gentile. Paul doesn't come out and mention the lof and second death except in saying "works will be burned up". What if Paul was more advanced in his knowledge of salvation than John was and knew that the lof didn't apply to anyone who believed as Paul did, that is why he didn't teach anything about it?
I honestly believe that the lof and second death has to do with man's works. Paul came to see that our works was not ours but Christ working in us. If WE have no works we are in Christ, or Christ is in us so we have nothing to burn.
All of this is probably the simpliest thing to understand but we still have a veil over our eyes. I don't think we will ever know completely what the lof and second death means. We will always have questions about this and we will all have our opinions.
Well, just my :2c:.
CHB
Quote from: wwSo we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being really very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school
19Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
--Lev 19:19
"For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance"--Deuteronomy 32:9
Isaiah 43:21
This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 29, 2010, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
QuoteWW replied: Sinners are cast into LoF; not into new earth.
Saint and sinner are in different locations. So how can the sinners mess up the new earth?
Some here on tentmaker have said that the lake of fire or second death will be a learning experience in that they will learn God's ways. So by that I understood them to mean that while they are on the new earth they will be in a sort of glorified Sunday School.
QuoteWW replied: I think a better comparison is summer school. The kids that messed up during the regular school year (=life) are in summer school; while the good students (=saints) are enjoying the summer in the Kingdom of the Son.
So we have inside and outside of school. No mixing of groups.
So sinners being realy very dead or in summer school has nothing to do with the safety of the Kingdom outside the school.
Tony's reply:
The major problems with your scenario: 1. The Bible never says people will learn anything in the 2nd death and 2. You can't teach a dead man new tricks.
The Bible says the dead know nothing and also says "Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you are going." The unseen is also Sheol which is also the grave or tomb. It stands for death. There is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in death.
So any summer school for dead people is a complete waste of time.
QuoteQuoteTony wrote: So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again
QuoteWW replied: Who said LoF is spiritual death? It's more like death of the bad spirit.
Tony's reply: It is the death of the whole person. Bad spirits are not written in the book of life but an actual person's name. It is the whole, actual person who stands before the great white throne and judged according to their acts.
QuoteWW replied: Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.
The only problem with your scenario is you have to prove that when all mankind died their first death that just the "rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies."
Revelation does not say just a part of man dies in the second death. That is just making things up as you go along. It says "Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say "If any rebellious part of a human was not written in the scroll of life then that bad part of the person was cast into the lake of fire."
QuoteTony wrote: Also a "bad spirit" didn't have a first death and therefore has to have a second death. The whole person died a first death and has to be cast into a second death.
QuoteWW replied: Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.
Tony's reply: Since the whole person enters into the second death which is the complete absence of life then all which makes up that person dies, not just a bad part.
When the second death is abolished they are all resurrected as perfect people, righteous, justified, immortal. They don't go through school while in death.
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 07:35:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 29, 2010, 07:11:52 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 06:51:51 PMIf any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Quotepeacemaker replied: Yeah. And because LoF is the prime example of fire in the Bible it isn't so unreal to believe LoF is more than dead = dead as TonyN wants us to believe.
Tony replied: 1 Corinthians 3:15 has nothing whatsoever to do with the lake of fire. The fire of 1 Cor.3:15 is not the second death for us.
QuoteQuotepeacemaker replied: Uncompromising Literalism.
Tony's reply: Uncompromising sophistry.
Quote"And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it..."
This is not speaking of physical water, as in the world's oceans. :coffee2:
Actually, here it is speaking of physical water:
Rev 20:13 "And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
The sea, death and unseen are all literal and all the dead from Adam to the last human whose name is not written in the book of life is to stand before the G.W.T.
Quote from: Tony N on May 30, 2010, 02:41:49 AMTony's reply:
The major problems with your scenario: 1. The Bible never says people will learn anything in the 2nd death and 2. You can't teach a dead man new tricks.
The Bible says the dead know nothing and also says "Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you :boyheart:are going." The unseen is also Sheol which is also the grave or tomb. It stands for death. There is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in death.
So any summer school for dead people is a complete waste of time.
That's not true. All have sinned. That means all are dead. That would mean noone would ever make it to heaven. But eventually all are saved/believers. For me that automatically means the dead can and will learn new tricks. Paul/Saul was very dead. He didn't seek God. He tried to destroy Christianity the best way he could. How is the possible that man went from very dead to very much alive. To someone that many Christians take as an example and a man that has written/said words of great importance.
I'm in no way denying the verses you have correctly quoted. But what do those verses really mean? IF they are dead they know nothing for sure. But if the HS starts injecting light into the dark souls they start knowing things. Nothing is impossible with God. That's not just about God's ability to let the tree in your garden grow. It's also the ability to learn the dead a lesson.
And the way I see it we don't disagree on that point. I see it as a process that takes some time (duration is unknown to me)
You see it as something instant. If I understood the last part of your post correctly.
QuoteWW replied: Yes! the whole actual person. And that whole actual person gets completly kicked into the lake. Completly. 100%. All parts are kicked into the lake.
And one part dies in that lake. The rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies. So once those cast into LoF are allowed to exit a part is left behind. The part that died. That part is no more.
QuoteThe only problem with your scenario is you have to prove that when all mankind died their first death that just the "rebelious spirit/part/mind/nature dies." Revelation does not say just a part of man dies in the second death. That is just making things up as you go along.
Revelation says
something dies. For you "something" is the full 100%.
For me that's not a fact. Just as Revelation doesn't state "100% died" Neither does it state "x% died"
About the first death: The way I see it; 100%, complete man, all parts included die the dead=dead type of death. Very and completly dead.
QuoteIt says "Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say "If any rebellious part of a human was not written in the scroll of life then that bad part of the person was cast into the lake of fire."
Correct. That's why I earlier wrote that the complete, 100%, every part, nothing excluded, every molecule of that man or woman is cast into LoF. So I'm not saying that certain parts never enter LoF. ALL parts enter LoF.
QuoteQuoteWW replied: Exactly the whole person died. That includes the "bad spirit", "bad anti God personallity". So everything suffered the first death. Then it gets ressurected as it was. Equally good or bad. That included a good or bad peronality.
Tony's reply: Since the whole person enters into the second death which is the complete absence of life then all which makes up that person dies, not just a bad part.
I think we running around in circles...
"which is the complete absence of life" => That's the part being discussed here.
This discussion is using a bit of circular reasoning. Someone is standing before an earthly court charged of fraud. Everything that person says is answered with "that's a lies because you are a fraud". The problem is that the man is not a fraud until convicted.
Similar in this discussion there is no "type of death" we can use as proof. Unless we can prove it in different ways.
QuoteWhen the second death is abolished they are all resurrected as perfect people, righteous, justified, immortal. They don't go through school while in death.
Ok, so they learn in the blink of an eye? Then I wonder why Jesus warned that it's better to pluck out your eye etc.
Jesus was warining about something severe. Ok, not a ET style lava torture pit. But imo more than ressurection, judgement and slip back into a dead=dead. Then time passes and you suddenly 'wake up' and that's it.....?
Yes, they are resurrected out of the LoF, they are then instantly immortal and incorruptible and guess what? God is then All in all. The instant God is All in these people who are resurrected out of the second death they will walk in perfect love for "God is love." They will walk in perfect light for "God is light." They will be in full possession of all the fruits of the spirit. They will have all knowledge and wisdom for "in Whom all knowledge and wisdom are hid." They will be fully reconciled, justified and made righteous. So why would they need to go through Sunday School for years after their resurrection?
They will also learn that I am right and you are not. LOL! :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on May 29, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)
:thumbsup:
I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....
Quote from: Tony N on May 30, 2010, 02:32:38 PMThey will also learn that I am right and you are not. LOL! :laughing7:
Ok, dead man :laughing7:
Death?
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 09:03:12 AM
The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.
And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg: I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.
Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief
first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)
second res.- 1000 years later- all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF
No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)
Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)
As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.
One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)
Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on May 30, 2010, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on May 29, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)
:thumbsup:
I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....
Dear Novus, The incomplete form of the word "die" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is "dying." So it should be: "even as in Adam all are dy
ing, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified." All mankind have not yet been vivified or made alive in Christ. Once Christ quits reigning and once all sovereignty, authority and power are done abolished and death is abolished then all the rest of mankind, held by the second death, will come forth and be made alive in Christ.
All die the first death in Adam. All not written in the book of life die the second death in the lake of fire.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2010, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 09:03:12 AM
The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.
And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg: I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.
Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief
first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)
second res.- 1000 years later- all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF
No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)
Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)
As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
Tony's reply:
Dear eaglesway, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"
Can you see why it cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.
Quoteeaglesway wrote: As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.
Can you please show me a verse where it states the lake of fire is aidos [sic] fire?
Quoteeaglesway wrote: One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)
Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.
Yea, I know there are a wide variety of folks with differing opinions or differing "revelations" from some God Who seems to have told them conflicting ideas as to what the lake of fire is. Hence my many questions which started out this thread in trying to take in that wide variety of folks.
Quote from: Tony N on May 30, 2010, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2010, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Tony N on May 29, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 09:03:12 AM
The absence of life is something that Jesus attributed to many. "Let the dead bury the dead".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)
Imagine, what is supposed to be the greatest eon of all the former eons becoming the worst eon of all the former eons. That is the scenario if you are saying that all whose names are not in the scroll of life are just cast into a second "spiritual death" but they will still get to live on the new earth.
Under your paradigm the new earth will be filled full of multiplied billions upon billions of God haters and people who would have nothing whatsoever to do with God and never will.
And all who maketh a lie shall be cast into the second death. So these people who are already "spiritually dead" somehow get cast into spiritual death again and again and again and again and again. :omg: I hate to say this but I really fear stating something like that because you might really believe it and run with it.
Actually, my paradigm allows for no such thing. In my paradigm, no one is released from the LOF until they have bowed the knee and confessed from a true repentant broken and contrite heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
My paradigm, as I presented before, here in brief
first res. - overcomers in Christ(he that believes in me shall not see death)
second res.- 1000 years later- all the dead from whenever, of which some are judged righteous out of the books(which are written out of their consciences- the secrets of their hearts Ro. 2:15,16) and the rest are cast into the LOF
No one escapes the LOF(translated) until they have bowed the knee(subjected) and confessed with the tongue out a broken and contrite heart(transformed)
Same pattern as us.....subjected(repentence)-translated(faith)-transformed(sanctification)
As the last world(kosmos) was transformed through water(destroyed and reborn) this present heavens and earth are reserved for fire wherein the elementary principles(stoicheon) will be consumed with intense heat(transformed and reborn)- revealing a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
Tony's reply:
Dear peacemaker, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"
Can you see why it cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.
Quotepeacemaker wrote: As I see it our main point of disagreement is what happens in the LOF, or, what the LOF actually represents as a symbol, which is somewhat nebulus, since so little is written. IMO the LOF is aionian fire and aidos fire- its duration is not much of an issue to me- its nature is more of an interest to me.
Can you please show me a verse where it states the lake of fire is aidos [sic] fire?
Quotepeacemaker wrote: One of the problems of this board is continuity. Hence as in this case, a person is often renewing the discussion in terms of what someone assumes you are presenting, when they havent been keeping up with the paradigm you have presented anyway :o)
Of course Tony you are maintaining a discussion here with a wide variety of folks with many different paradigms, so I am not criticizing you at all- it is what it is.
Yea, I know there are a wide variety of folks with differing opinions or differing "revelations" from some God Who seems to have told them conflicting ideas as to what the lake of fire is. Hence my many questions which started out this thread in trying to take in that wide variety of folks.
"Symptomatic of Retinitis Pigmentosa."
Blindness that generally precedes tunnel vision. Thus, are you addressing:
Dear Peacemaker or Eaglesway within your single theme concerning death?
I must be senile (showing a decline or deterioration in mental functioning), can't remember writing what you quoted? :dontknow:
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying,...
No problem hearing.
peacemaker :thumbsup:
Hi Tony
Actually, you are correct, I should have simply said I believe the LOF is aionion fire... I was thinking also of the aidos chains of Jude 1:6 and the olam fire of Isaiah 33:14 and should have checked the references before posting. However you did not address the substance of my post, which is that you can't keep up with the flow of what people are saying to you. Your statement about "my paradigm" was inaccurate- so much so that I realized we arent having an edifying conversation- its just jot versus tittle.
As you attributed my response to Peacemaker, I see.....you don't even know who you are responding to.
For me, it may be best to just let it go at this point. I would say that I have presented considerable scripture (right or wrong as to my perspective).... I have no "revelation" that does not come out of the scriptures(correct in my understanding or not). Maybe your paradigm is the standard around which the unity of faith should coalesce, but I doubt it- no one else seems to be able to come in agreement with it. I think some of your views are to narrow(veiled), as in, to this day when Moses is read a veil remains...the letter kills, the spirit gives life. If someone does not accept your sense of what is metonymy and what is literal; the discussion is over.
Let me say that I have enjoyed the discourse for the most part thus far and I do agree with much of your paradigm. The part I reject probably all stems from what I see as your view on the nature of death, which seems to extend completely through your eschatology. I respect that... I just disagree. Peace, John
"The two lakes coalesced into one."
Two Deaths lead to One Life!
peacemaker
Robertson Word Pictures Of The New Testament
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/philippians/philippians-2-10.html (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/philippians/philippians-2-10.html)
Philippians 2:10
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampshi).
First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina.
Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.
Under the earth (kataxtoniwn).
Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.
Your HERE link doesn't work. Can you please fix it?
Quote from: Tony N on May 30, 2010, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on May 30, 2010, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on May 29, 2010, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on May 29, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)
:thumbsup:
I love this one most of all because most always we forget that ALL have "been" made alive already and there is nothing more to do to be in Christ. At the cross all was dragged IN Christ for ever more , as was All was dragged in Adam for ever more "until" the Christ Came and forfilled His Fathers plan.....
Dear Novus, The incomplete form of the word "die" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is "dying." So it should be: "even as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified." All mankind have not yet been vivified or made alive in Christ. Once Christ quits reigning and once all sovereignty, authority and power are done abolished and death is abolished then all the rest of mankind, held by the second death, will come forth and be made alive in Christ.
All die the first death in Adam. All not written in the book of life die the second death in the lake of fire.
Tony , You guys are having a debate about book of Life, and LOF and I am not going there, What I said above is what I teach and believe, Death has been done away with in all things ....Sorry I must clarify , "Separation From God, Spiritual death" All Things Will be
Forever Alive-vivified whether or not it chooses anything in it's earth life.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2010, 08:55:37 PM
Hi Tony
Actually, you are correct, I should have simply said I believe the LOF is aionion fire... I was thinking also of the aidos chains of Jude 1:6 and the olam fire of Isaiah 33:14 and should have checked the references before posting. However you did not address the substance of my post, which is that you can't keep up with the flow of what people are saying to you. Your statement about "my paradigm" was inaccurate- so much so that I realized we arent having an edifying conversation- its just jot versus tittle.
As you attributed my response to Peacemaker, I see.....you don't even know who you are responding to.
For me, it may be best to just let it go at this point. I would say that I have presented considerable scripture (right or wrong as to my perspective).... I have no "revelation" that does not come out of the scriptures(correct in my understanding or not). Maybe your paradigm is the standard around which the unity of faith should coalesce, but I doubt it- no one else seems to be able to come in agreement with it. I think some of your views are to narrow(veiled), as in, to this day when Moses is read a veil remains...the letter kills, the spirit gives life. If someone does not accept your sense of what is metonymy and what is literal; the discussion is over.
Let me say that I have enjoyed the discourse for the most part thus far and I do agree with much of your paradigm. The part I reject probably all stems from what I see as your view on the nature of death, which seems to extend completely through your eschatology. I respect that... I just disagree. Peace, John
Dear eaglesway, before you bow out could you at least do me the favor of responding to this? I asked before but didn't get an answer. . . . .
eaglesway wrote: Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
Tony's reply:Dear eaglesway, this is what Revelation 5:13 states:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"
Can you see why Revelation 5:13 cannot be occurring simultaneously with 1 Corinthians 15:24?
It should be staring you in the face in 5:13 but I will see if you can see it first before I say anything about it.
Sure Tony no problem. IMO When we see through John's eyes in Rev 5:13 what we are seeing is the fulfillment of Eph 1:10, Romans 8:22, Phil 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:24
What I am saying, be patient now, listen and consider what I am saying :o)
There will be a celebration of the subjection of all things(1 Cor 15:24), the gathering of all things into one(Eph 1:10)
and the setting free of the creation from the futility it was subjected to not of its own will, but in hope of the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8).
Sort of like the celebration they had when they had crossed the Red Sea out of Egypt, and like the prophetic songs of Miriam and Moses.
Then when the song is sung, and the victory celebrated, then He to whom "the all" was subjected will return "the all" to God for the abolition of all rule power and authority and God will be all in all- which means- because everything (pas) will experience the freedom- the glorious liberty of the sons, which is free will harmony, submission to one anther because of love rather than law- there will be no need for any authority, life will reign and death will have been swallowed up with chaos/rebellion.
For this reason I believe that 1 Cor 15:24 involves a stage prior to God being all in all, which is the final fulfillment- which is 1 Cor 15:28
first come "leastness" i.e. humility (knee bows, willingness, taking on servanthood)
then comes "eachness" i.e. to each one of you grace has been given
(placement for function, fitly joined for edification)
then comes "oneness" i.e. God has placed "each one" in the body that there might be no division
(harmony/chorus, bond of unity, fitly joined for edification)
then comes "fulness" i.e. they were all in one place in one accord as one soul
(tabernacle effect, glory returns to the temple, woman clothed with the sun)
then comes "allness" i.e. Christ as head over the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all
(overflow- by this will the world know you are my disciples-if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me)
IMO Christ will achieve "fulness" and "allness" in His body before He sets the creation free. I groan because we have not grown.
:cloud9: Awesome post, eaglesway.......never saw the progression in quite that way before....... :thumbsup: Blessings....
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET ... But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident (contemporaneously) that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected ALL THINGS to Him, so that the SPIRIT may be ALL IN ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
Tony, you are of the mindset or disposition that an era is an eon; a literal thousand years.
peacemaker
Dear eaglesway, here is Revelation 5:13 once again:
"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"
It is impossible for 5:13 to be the sequel to 1 Corinthians 15:28.
Notice the final thing they say: "For the eons of the eons." They are looking forward to the future eons. They are not saying this at the end of the eons. Therefore it cannot possibly be the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:28.
Do you understand this?
I don t get it. I asked you to read and listen. I clearly said Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL(before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel(after). If you don't have the time to read what a person writes and consider what they say- whats the point?
Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13, 1 Cor 15:24, Rom 8:19 are all before 1 Cor 15:28, as I have said over and over.
Oh Wait. NOW I get it! You R Just Messing With Me :o) hahahah OK, cool- I'm your sucker, now let's be done with this. See ya, John
Quote from: eagleswayIMO Christ will achieve "fulness" and "allness" in His body before He sets the creation free. I groan because we have not grown.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
--Eph 4
Quote from: peacemaker on May 31, 2010, 12:35:17 AM
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET ... But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident (contemporaneously) that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected ALL THINGS to Him, so that the SPIRIT may be ALL IN ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
Tony, you are of the mindset or disposition that an era is an eon; a literal thousand years.
peacemaker
peacemaker, that actually is not true. I don't believe an era is an eon. An era may be part of an eon but is not an eon. But an eon can be 1000 years.
Also, you wrote this: "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET" I can only imagine you are amplifying that part to try to tell me it is a past act? But that is not what Paul was getting at. He was writing that once the kingdom is handed over to His God and Father, once all sovereignty, authority and power are nullified and once death is abolished then it will be said that "1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet.
Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."
The people in the 2nd death must eventually have that death nullified to be subject to Christ so God can be All in all.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2010, 02:25:45 AM
I don t get it. I asked you to read and listen. I clearly said Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL(before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel(after). If you don't have the time to read what a person writes and consider what they say- whats the point?
Eph 1:10, Rev 5:13, 1 Cor 15:24, Rom 8:19 are all before 1 Cor 15:28, as I have said over and over.
Oh Wait. NOW I get it! You R Just Messing With Me :o) hahahah OK, cool- I'm your sucker, now let's be done with this. See ya, John
Dear eaglesway, I went through every page of this thread and searched the word "prequel" and could not find where you used it once prior to the above post. You clearly did not say "Rev 5:13 is the PREQUEL (before) to 1 Cor 15:28, not the sequel (after).
It is possible you just didn't read what you wrote carefully enough before posting it? You did use the phrase "just previous to 1 Cor 15:28" and that is what I was honing in on.
Here is what you wrote:
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
O.K. so, how can Revelation 5:13 be "just previous to 1 Corinthians 15:28 when at that point in time in 5:13 these people were saying these things prior to "the eons of the eons." That means there are two eons to go.
Sequel means after Tony. That was your word, after reading my post, in which I said Rev 5 :13 occurs before(prequel) 1 Cor 15;28
Prequel means before- I was just responding in kind, and in humor to your word selection.
I was just playing off your selection of the word sequel.
Since you would rather play head games than have a substantive discussion, I will as I should have before, bid you adieu for now, Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on May 31, 2010, 03:46:51 PM
Sequel means after Tony. That was your word, after reading my post, in which I said Rev 5 :13 occurs before(prequel) 1 Cor 15;28
Prequel means before- I was just responding in kind, and in humor to your word selection.
I was just playing off your selection of the word sequel.
Since you would rather play head games than have a substantive discussion, I will as I should have before, bid you adieu for now, Peace, John
Dear eaglesway, I take offense at your improperly suggesting that I would rather play head games. I am not playing head games. How was I possibly to know that your choice of the word "prequel" was to be a humorous reply to my use of the word "sequel"? Believe me when I tell you I didn't see your humor.
Maybe you wish to accuse me of wrongdoing so you can use an ad hominum attack because what I wrote undermines the basis of your belief concerning Revelation 5:13?
Here is what you wrote:
Rev 5:13 occurs simultaneous to 1 Cor 15:24 and just previous to 1 Cor 15:28.... I think John saw the celebration after all was subjected and before all was "handed over" for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.
And here was my "non-mind-game request to you:
O.K. so, how can Revelation 5:13 be "just previous to 1 Corinthians 15:28 when at that point in time in 5:13 these people were saying these things prior to "the eons of the eons." That means there are two eons to go.
Can you answer that rather than just falsely accuse me? :dontknow:
John, eaglesway,
Remember, your conversation is in heaven.
Hi Tony,
I apologize for offending you, if I have..... but I really have no desire to dispute jots and tittles with you. I will answer your question, but this will be my last exchange with you on this topic.
IMO, as I have said many times in this thread- seeing through the glass darkly- that in Rev 5:13, Jesus still reigns, but everything has been gathered under Him as one, in love- the glorious liberty of the sons of God. John is seeing a vision outside of time of the fulfillment of Eph 1:10 and 1Cor 15:24
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:13)
This shows that every creature is subject to Christ in love(1 Cor 15:24), all things are summed up/gathered into one in Christ(anakephalaiomai pas-Eph1:10), all that was created through Him is reconciled(Col. 1:15-20)- yet He is still on the throne, so all rule power and authority have not yet been abolished. Hence I say it is pre 1 Cor 15:28. By the end of 1 Cor 15:28 God is all in all- a trillion drops of water in one rushing eternal river- the voice of the "sound of many waters" singing songs we do not yet fathom.
I have not made any assertions as to how many eons remain between Rv.5:13; Eph 1:10;et al; and 1 Cor 15:28. You are sure about it- thats great, 2 you say, and I say maybe so, maybe not, I'll continue to examine the evidence. I have not been teaching this as a systematic theology or foundational doctrine- I have called it my perspective and I ask no one to accept it as anything more than that.
Our conversations would be more fruitful> IMO- if you could do the same, rather than acting like you have the absolute word on these issues, and condescending to anyone who disagrees with you. I see some holes in your paradigm, and I am not interested in carrying on debates with someone whose views are already set in stone. I examine what you say with an open mind- tho it may be unfathomable to you that someone could do so and not agree.
To me, as a discussion it is an edifying adventure. As a debate it becomes a draining exercise in futility. At a certain point, the snake is chasing its tail, and it doesnt matter who is the head and who is the tail. It has become unfruitful to me, so thats really all the reason I need to move on. Peace to you tho in Jesus, maybe another time we can look at it again, for now- over and out, John
"a trillion drops of water"
baptized with fire make a...
wait for it...
wait for it...
Lake of Fire.
O.K. thanks for your thoughts eaglesway.
But just something to put in your notebook for future reference; just because I question other's beliefs on any given topic does not mean I think I have all the answers or am unbendable in my position.
This is a great learning experience for me to go over each person's post in this thread. I like to see how everyone sees the scriptures. We are all at different levels (and I am not intimating I am at a higher level by stating that) but I look forward to the day when we will all be at the same level in Christ and there will be no schism in the body.
I will just reiterate what I said before concerning Revelation 5:13 in response to what you said. I understand you do not wish to carry this on further and so I will agree with that but (I get the last word . . . LOL!) :
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth
and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear
also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-
Be blessing and honor and glory and might for the eons of the eons!"
It is my understanding that 5:13 cannot be absolutely every creature for a couple reasons:
1. They are stating what they are stating to Christ prior to the eons of the eons which are the last two eons.
2. If this truly was every creature why need there any bowls to be cast to the earth and all the judgments to come?
Now I know you say at this point in time John is seeing a vision "outside of time." But no one in the Bible, not even Paul who completed the Word of God, saw anything outside of time. I realize you don't want to talk about this further but if this was a statement made outside of time why are they telling Christ that He will get glory, honor and might **for the eons of the eons** which are from their point in time still future?
The term "eons of the eons" are the two greatest eons out of all the prior eons before. They are the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon. It is during these two eons that He will get full honor, power and might among earth's inhabitants. But surely not every human who ever lived from Adam onward will be blessing Him at this point in time.
Anyway, just some things to think about. Just one more thing, are these "creatures" (i.e. animals) who are seeing that God is finally going to do something about their plight with mankind destroying and polluting the earth and so the **creatures** break forth in praise to Him?
For instance a third of the creatures in the sea will die (Rev.8:9).
To clarify my view: Time is a bubble surrounded by olam. "The veil" so to speak. God can take us beyond the veil, physically and spiritually(as with Enoch, or Jesus at the mount of transfiguration) or just "in the spirit". IMO at the second advent the veil in the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll(the bubble will tear). IMO when 1 Cor 15:28 is fulfilled the bubble will no longer exist. For now, we know in part- then we shall know as we are known. Now we see through a glass darkly- then we shall see all things. Some of us walk in a more "active" relationship with God in the spirit, in the olam than others. For some the bubble will be consumed completely, in them, at the first resurrection. Perhaps for some it is already more "torn" than for some others.
IMO Your interpretation does not match what is written. You are not seeing what John saw. He saw "every creature on earth, in heaven, under earth and in the sea giving glory to Jesus Christ". You say it could not have been every, but it says every. I believe that includes every sentient being in the kosmos up until then. He was seeing in a vision a future event as if it was happening before His eyes, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, post second resurrection, post LOF, all reconciled. Perhaps even it was happening before His eyes, because we do not understand all that transpires between time and eternity as we look through the glass darkly.
It is possible that the word is simply true as written and your interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate, or else the Holy Spirit is making a statement that is self contradicting.I prefer to take it at face value and recognize my need to continue digging, rather than to wrangle the words with that "well it could not mean what it actually says there because it would not allow my paradigm to fly" kind of stuff.
Perhaps at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of faith, in one mind and one accord, and we will see the heavens opened, and the angels ascending and descending on the ecclesia, and the Lord will be adding daily to the them such as are chosen for deliverance. Maybe this will never occur except as it is building "outside the bubble", "beyond the veil"- or perhaps it will be consummated in this age and the feet will stand on land and sea and the head will be in heaven and the lions roar will be heard by "all those who dwell on the earth", making known the aionios gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 01, 2010, 06:37:25 PM
To clarify my view: Time is a bubble surrounded by olam.
You just burst my bubble.
What about multiple bubbles then since there were bubbles before and we are living in the current wicked bubble (Galatians 1:4) and there are the bubbles of the bubbles to come?
Quote
IMO Your interpretation does not match what is written. You are not seeing what John saw. He saw "every creature on earth, in heaven, under earth and in the sea giving glory to Jesus Christ". You say it could not have been every, but it says every. I believe that includes every sentient being in the kosmos up until then. He was seeing in a vision a future event as if it was happening before His eyes, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, post second resurrection, post LOF, all reconciled. Perhaps even it was happening before His eyes, because we do not understand all that transpires between time and eternity as we look through the glass darkly.
By "it could not have been every creature" I should have made it more plainer. It could not be every creature
including all mankind. Mankind is not included in the statement "every creature" in Rev.5:13 just as mankind is not included in "a third of the creatures of the sea" in Revelation 8:9. The term "every creature in heaven" does not mean "in heaven where Jesus' throne is" but in the atmosphere which means "the birds flying in the heavens."
Gen 1:26 And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our
likeness, and sway shall they over the
fish of the sea, and over the
flyer of the heavens, and over the
beast, and over all land life, and over every moving
animal moving on the land.
Notice in the above you have all the creatures of heaven, the sea and the land just as in Revelation 5:3?
QuoteIt is possible that the word is simply true as written and your interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate, or else the Holy Spirit is making a statement that is self contradicting.I prefer to take it at face value and recognize my need to continue digging, rather than to wrangle the words with that "well it could not mean what it actually says there because it would not allow my paradigm to fly" kind of stuff.
A good example of the eons of the eons is to be found in "the holies of the holies" in the tabernacle. The holies of the holies are the two greatest rooms in the tabernacle of the holies which the high priest went through to get to, to meet God. Just as there are 5 holy parts to the tabernacle thus there are 5 eons. The eons correspond in type to the 5 holy parts of the temple. So just saying "my interpretation of the eons of the eons is in some measure inaccurate" is in itself an inaccurate statement from you having no basis in fact to prove my understanding as being inaccurate except alone on your word only which, by the way, proves nothing as you are well aware.
QuotePerhaps at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of faith, in one mind and one accord, and we will see the heavens opened, and the angels ascending and descending on the ecclesia, and the Lord will be adding daily to the them such as are chosen for deliverance. Maybe this will never occur except as it is building "outside the bubble", "beyond the veil"- or perhaps it will be consummated in this age and the feet will stand on land and sea and the head will be in heaven and the lions roar will be heard by "all those who dwell on the earth", making known the aionian gospel of Jesus Christ.
Not "perhaps" but "most definately at some time in the future we will all stand in the unity of the faith . . . ."
This post has been deep and good in many ways, I liked it. I think the Greek, not the translation, but the wisdom with all its thoughts, is like a gathering of fellow thinkers on a friday night with togas and eating with friends.
I have found that death is death, that is deep as too, think about it. Where as most think of death as a finality, and it is perhaps, but I kinda look at death as life. With out death, that final event ..... Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,(that judgment is the second death, thats what its all about, whether its Gehennna judgment[fire] or LOF judgment) John said it... Joh 12:24 verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
In the judgment lies death. There is NO life without death, whether it is a spiritual death or a physical death and that through judgment and that judgment is fire. I thank The Lord Jesus Christ that I no longer find the debate of the LOF and the second death, anything more than time wasted in the academic and Greek, all the words and thoughts that deny death giving liberty to those with the faith in Him. Gal 2:19 for I through law, did die, that to God I may live;
Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 03, 2010, 08:04:13 AM
This post has been deep and good in many ways, I liked it. I think the Greek, not the translation, but the wisdom with all its thoughts, is like a gathering of fellow thinkers on a friday night with togas and eating with friends.
I have found that death is death, that is deep as too, think about it. Where as most think of death as a finality, and it is perhaps, but I kinda look at death as life. With out death, that final event ..... Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,(that judgment is the second death, thats what its all about, whether its Gehennna judgment[fire] or LOF judgment) John said it... Joh 12:24 verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
In the judgment lies death. There is NO life without death, whether it is a spiritual death or a physical death and that through judgment and that judgment is fire. I thank The Lord Jesus Christ that I no longer find the debate of the LOF and the second death, anything more than time wasted in the academic and Greek, all the words and thoughts that deny death giving liberty to those with the faith in Him. Gal 2:19 for I through law, did die, that to God I may live;
Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Hi micah, thanks for your rather peaceful post.
I am curious though if you believe that all the unbelievers standing before the great white throne are going to live while in death?
I am curious as to what you think about these people whose names are not in the book or scroll of life? If they are not in that scroll and thus are cast into death how can they be alive to God since we know already they are not in the scroll of life?
Does not "scroll of life" mean thost who are in it will be living?
And does not "those not in the scroll of life" mean they won't be living?
When Jesus died, did He literally die? And Stephen? Yes there are figurative usages of death such as the ones you brought up but that does not necessarily mean the death spoken of as the second death is figurative. So, whatcha think? :dontknow:
I to have read through this thread, but I've struggled a little more from some posts than others due to the idea that it's a literal description of death, life, lake, literal 1,000 years . . . I struggle because some implicate that their point of views are factual rather than their perspective and because of that mix of signals, it's a struggle to glean truth when what's being projected seems to be the result of natural reasoning more than personal revelation.
For me, the premise has been off from the start with the understanding of what death is. For me, it's not the absense of life, it's simply "separation". Adam died the day he ate because he was no longer in the spirit realm of God, with God, but he was separated from it and planted on the earth from which he was originally created from. However, the earth he was put on was not the same earth he was created from in the sense that now, because of his misalignment, the earth was cursed. So now, he had to learn how to live by new rules. He no longer thrived from the fruit of trees, but now, his identity was from tilling the ground. But he didn't literally die as we see death to be. He was simply separated from the realm of God.
When we physcially die now, there is no absense of life. There is, however, a separation. Our spirit returns to the realm from which it came and our flesh remains in this realm. As far as the lake of fire goes . . .I don't agree that it's where ungodly people go to be anhialated. I believe if your not identifying with the book of life, then you enter into the lake of fire where the dross is removed from you, cleansing you, purifying you to reveal that your pure identity is, and always has been the signature of God's hand in your life all along. But your carnality that you lived in and lived by, kept it veiled. But the lake of fire is not to destroy men. It's to destroy the "man" in men. the carnality that we constantly do battle with inside ourselves on a daily basis.
The understanding of second death is something that comes to us through faith, not through proof of someone's translation of Scripture. Scripture, in and of itself, reveals nothing. It's the Spirit that takes the Word of God and makes it a living thing in us. And the only thing the Spirit manifests in, as far as I've been able to see, is faith.
:bdh:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 03, 2010, 04:52:45 PM
:bdh:
Beloved Servant, that's not very nice hitting a dead horse. :laughing7: I'll have to report you to PETA. :laughing7: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
That's not me swinging the club.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 03, 2010, 05:35:02 PM
That's not me swinging the club.
It looks just like you. I don't have any hair on the top of my head. :laughing7:
Hey, I just got a direct revelation from God! The horse is not really dead! It is just "spiritually dead" and you are beating out the spiritual deadness with a rod of fire from it so that after it goes through the pond of fire (you can't make a dead horse drink fire water) the horse will come forth useful to God. Of course I'm just making fun of people who get direct revelations from God and they don't agree with others who get direct revelations from God too.
Thou mighty Christ, come forth in me;
My will, my way, I yield to Thee —
The barren sings a travailing song,
O praise His name, it won't be long!
My bad, all I've seen for the most part was literal interpretations. I guess personal revelation and literal interpretation are to be construed as one and the same then?
Incidentally, you can't eat the horse unless it's dead first anyway.
He should be hitting the horse in the head- thats where the flies are. :laughing7:
Beloved Servant, it's not nice of you to beat Tony's hobbyhorse :laughing7:
eaglesway. Stars not flies. 1/3 of them.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
He should be hitting the horse in the head- thats where the flies are. :laughing7:
Oh, let's see, flies . . . Beezeboul = lord of the flies. Dead horse, rod, hitting. We could build a whole spiritual lesson from that. :happy3:
There was no food in the place. And they yelled "throw down the horse!" and they threw her down from the upper window and into the street below where the chariots rode over the horse and they picked up 70 baskets full.
Or,
maybe the horse is being struck in the right place.
Gird your loins.
Surely we can tie in "kicking the goads" with that somehow!
:Urock: :goodpost: :egyptdance: :myahoo: :hithere: :banana: :2thumbs:
Nate, that was awesome....
O.K. so, after the sweet fellowship we've had over this "What is the lake of fire" I think it is safe to say that
The lake of fire is not God.
We are not the lake of fire.
We are not presently in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire which is the second death is not the second life.
The lake of fire is the second death.
The second death is a repetition of the first death.
The first death was absolute dead as a doorknob death.
No one is purified by the second death.
No one goes to Sunday School or Summer Camp while in the second death.
The second death is to be abolished when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled.
The second death is not the death of spiritual death but the whole person.
Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire is a metonymy for all those held by death and hades.
Death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is not the death of death.
The second death is not greater than the first death.
The earth will be purged and purified of the dead, decaying bodies in the fire and brimstone.
Anybody else care to post what they have learned from what we have come up with?
Quote from: Tony N on June 04, 2010, 01:06:18 PMAnybody else care to post what they have learned from what we have come up with?
None of the conclusions are based on this thread.
From your post it appears that we have come up with whatever you had already believed. :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2010, 01:37:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 04, 2010, 01:06:18 PMAnybody else care to post what they have learned from what we have come up with?
None of the conclusions are based on this thread.
Are you serious?
Care to give an explanation? I'm just kind of amazed you would say that.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2010, 02:38:49 PM
From your post it appears that we have come up with whatever you had already believed. :laughing7:
I was actually hoping that you came to believe God that the lake of fire is death and not life. :sigh:
That "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire" is not as the false teachers teach "the death of death" but that death and hades is a metonymy for all held by death and hades. :sigh:
So you believe we are the lake of fire? That is so laughable it is insane.
I thought you people here were christians. :dontknow:
We can discuss without slurs. Let's please do.
Quote from: Tony N on June 07, 2010, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2010, 01:37:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 04, 2010, 01:06:18 PMAnybody else care to post what they have learned from what we have come up with?
None of the conclusions are based on this thread.
Are you serious?
Care to give an explanation? I'm just kind of amazed you would say that.
It very simple to answer TonyN.
Reply #461 is (as summary of) your view.
I'm sure you noticed not everyone agrees with those views.
So not everyone agrees with your views.
Personally I see not enough support for your view to accept it as a fact.
My
view isn't totally insane. Notice I wrote "view" but I in no way present it as a fact. Just a view to be considered.
I know you totally disagree. That you right. But then you simply can't conclude the posters in this thread all agree with you.
There are others that don't agree with you. I won't name them. They are very able to speak their mind if they wish so.
All in all this thread that had potentional to be edifying quickly turned in a quicksand of overanalysing each comma without thinking a bit out of the box.
Quote from: Tony N on June 07, 2010, 09:35:53 PMI thought you people here were christians. :dontknow:
Maybe none of us is a Christians. Maybe we are just seekers. Or pupils that once will be Christians.
Quoteis not as the false teachers teach
But who determines who the false teachers are?
IMO the best way to avoid traps of false teachers it is to be constantly open for other views and test them openminded and seriously.
If not (assumed) knowledge quickly turns into vanity....
Signed,
A seeker of the narrow road.
White Wings, there you go again, overstating things by stating "overanalysing each comma" as if that is the fact as to what I did and in so doing you hoped to garner more support by making me look like some dimwitt with a magnifying glass looking at the commas rather than the whole of scripture.
Let's see if you can "think outside the box" and give attention to this:
If the second death is life, then let's face the issue in 1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be abolished is not death but life:
1Co 15:26 "The last enemy is being abolished: death," since death is life to many here at Tentmaker this must mean "the last enemy is being abolished: life."
And since some here believe we are death, since some believe "we are the lake of fire," God's main goal after He vivifies us is to abolish us.
You see, WW, it's not about commas, it's about the whole picture.
Indeed Tony it's the whole picture.
And the picture I painted was
NOT "the second death is life".
You can keep repeating that but trust me I will never agree. Simply because I never wrote that. I tried to re-explain it several times. Unfortunately with no effect.
So I think we can best agree that either you are a hopeless reader or I'm a hopeless explainer. Or both.
Whatever the answer, it will lead nowhere. If you don't even understand my view how can we even discuss it?
Quoteas if that is the fact as to what I did and in so doing you hoped to garner more support by making me look like some dimwitt
A wrong assumption TonyN. Most people on this forum already had their views way before I ever touched a Bible. So I don't think they need my posts to draw their own conclusions. Plus I'm fairly sure many disagree as much with my view as with yours. Many people. Many views. I have no hopes or no wish people follow my view.
Plus my socalled view was just something I put in the thread as a consideration. Not as a fact. Especially because I'm not sure of it either. But the discussion turned in such a way it seems I'm here to present facts instead of thoughts. But even I doubt about the view; I do not doubt what I wrote. And that was not "the second death is life".
:dontknow: Maybe someone that understands what I wrote can rephrase it for me...
Geesh, WW, try to calm down and read s-l-o-w-l-y. Chill out.
White Wings you are a poor reader.
Where did I recently say YOU believe "the second death is life"?
I will let you say yourself the second death is life. Your words in italic.
Post97 you wrote:
I Tony, wrote: "The Second death is the absence of life" and you replied: "Or the birth of new life..."
Tony's reply:
Therefore you do in fact believe the second death is life.
Post 115:
That would mean the second death isn't death of the whole body.
Tony's reply:
So you do believe the second death is life of part of the body (whatever that means! LOL!) therefore you do believe the second death is life.
post 193:
So (perhaps) LoF kills sin but not the sinner.
So according to your sophistry the LoF does not kill anyone therefore it is life rather than death to those who enter into it.
post 203:
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.
Tony's reply:
See? You believe since the LoF does not kill body or spirit that it is life to body and spirit therefore the second death is life according to you.
post 206:
IF LoF is about cleaning then for me LoF can be Father.
He is not death. In fact killing sin means rebirth/awakening of a clean spirit. And that's life.
Tony's reply:
So you do believe the second death is life.
post 230:
So the death in that verse was only about the spiritual part. Not a package deal. That's another reason I don't just accept death is a package deal when cast in LoF.
Tony's reply:
Since death is not a package deal part of the package is alive therefore you believe the second death is life.
post 234:
Let me start with saying the people whose names are not written in the book of life are missing out on a glorious period. So I think we have agreement on that. But does that mean they are completely dead?
Tony's reply:
If they are not completely dead they are alive and if alive then the lake of fire is life to you.
post 234:
I'm not yet convinced it's just very dead death.
Tony's reply:
If it's not dead death then it is life.
Post 310:
What I'm tried to show is that dead people learn too.
You tried to show that dead people are alive in the lake of fire therefore you must believe the second death is life.
That's enough of your own words telling us you do believe death is life.
No where in the bible is death life. Death is the absense of life. If one is dead to God they are not alive to God, not able to learn from God. If one is really dead one is not alive, one is in the absence of life and not able to learn from God.
The fact is, yes, WW, "fact" is that you falsely accuse me as "overanalysing each comma." And the sad thing is, rather than owning up to what you falsely accuse me of you throw out red herrings to get us off the scent of what you did.
Just because I "expose" like we are entreated to do, I realize it is a thankless job and no one likes their falsehoods exposed:
2Ti 4:2 "Herald the word. Stand by it, opportunely, inopportunely,
expose, rebuke, entreat, with all patience and teaching."
I'm not here to win a popularity context or sugar coat anything.
The reason there are many strange views here on the lake of fire is due to being deceived by certain teachers like Eby on the lake of fire.
Hey Tony,
I have been out of town the past ten days... and of coures getting ready a week before has caused me to miss much ... so... I have been following as best as I could. :mblush:
So would you do me a favor? :HeartThrob: Because in the next two weeks I have to prepare again (overtime :sigh: at work) for another 10 day trip... wife's family this time! :thumbsup:
Could you take the time to gather up (that is collect) and put into one single post your view of the second death. What I'm asking is ... what does "the lake of Fire " and or "Second death" mean to you?
What do you see? .... This would really save me and I'm sure a few others from having to search past post, and yet... give you to opportunity to put it all together in one single post! Here is your time bro... Post your entire view in a single post!!! Let your light shine brother, show me what you see! :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:12:52 AMWhite Wings you are a poor reader.
Where did I recently say YOU believe "the second death is life"?
In the quotes below
QuoteI will let you say yourself the second death is life. Your words in italic.
.....
Tony's reply:
See? You believe since the LoF does not kill body or spirit that it is life to body and spirit therefore the second death is life according to you.
.....
Tony's reply:
So you do believe the second death is life.
.....
Tony's reply:
Since death is not a package deal part of the package is alive therefore you believe the second death is life.
About being a poor reader. IMO you are one. Or perhaps you are a good reader clouded by black and white reasoning. :dontknow:
For you there are 2 options:
1- 100% completely dead
2- 100% completely alive
Let's keep it simple by saying I see possibly a 3rd option. No I'm not talking about zombies.
Every conclusion you draw from my words in your summary is wrong.
The way I see you reasoning is: If it's not a mammal (dead) then it's a fish(life). My reasoning is that it also can be bird or an insect.
So to summarize a question.
The death of
what?
See I used the word death? Not life.
I think for now the answer of "what" is more important that life/death.
WW, aren't you saying things die in the LoF, not people? I.e., works not of God burned up (wood, hay, stubble), but the spirit saved "as by fire in the day of the Lord"? So there's death and destruction, but actually what comes from that is new (refined) life? As in God creating the conditions for every knee to bow and every tongue confess? I believe that's actually what J.Preston teaches, if one looks at his teachings as a whole and in context.
If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying lemme know :bigGrin:. But is this at least close?
I think that's pretty close James. I have no very clear view of it. (even if it may sound that way in my posts)
Your wood, hay, stubble question is good.
Maybe I borrow a bit from the wheat and chaff parable.
The complete man that's cast into LoF is wheat as it grows on the land.
==> Wheat = Chaff + core/seeds (I don't know the name for it)
Just as in the parable the fire of LoF will destroy=kill=death the chaff
But also like the parable the "core/seeds" are saved.
I (think I) understand TonyN's reasoning. The normal/1st death defines how the 2nd death is. It's certainly something to consider. But OTOH Jesus wasn't giving a lecuture on farming. Maybe he did; spiritual farming...
Then there are things like "fullars soap" "refiners fire"
I have a strong feeling they are not about Father's hobbies. Lake=water=soap. Fire=refiner.
Plus according to lexicons the torment in LoF means "tested like gold is tested by a refiner". A not so passive sounding death.
I'm just trying to fit in the info. TonyN calls it "sophistry" I just call it "not ignoring other info
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
14And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
--Isa 30
Isaiah 30:27
Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Malachi 1:4
Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins." But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.
"crushed"
H7567
רשׁשׁ
râshash
raw-shash'
A primitive root; to demolish: - impoverish.
Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
"crushed"
likmaō autos
G3039
λικμάω
likmaō
lik-mah'-o
From λικμός likmos, the equivalent. of λίκνον liknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, that is, (by analogy) to triturate: - grind to powder.
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.
21And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
--Isa 30
Quote from: Pierac on June 08, 2010, 07:03:58 AM
Hey Tony,
I have been out of town the past ten days... and of coures getting ready a week before has caused me to miss much ... so... I have been following as best as I could. :mblush:
So would you do me a favor? :HeartThrob: Because in the next two weeks I have to prepare again (overtime :sigh: at work) for another 10 day trip... wife's family this time! :thumbsup:
Could you take the time to gather up (that is collect) and put into one single post your view of the second death. What I'm asking is ... what does "the lake of Fire " and or "Second death" mean to you?
What do you see? .... This would really save me and I'm sure a few others from having to search past post, and yet... give you to opportunity to put it all together in one single post! Here is your time bro... Post your entire view in a single post!!! Let your light shine brother, show me what you see! :thumbsup:
Paul
It is really simple. I will try to condense it all.
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death.
Death is the absence of life.
So those cast into the second death are cast into the absence of life.
It does not say that those not found in the scroll of life will live.
The most logical conclusion one can make from "those not found in the scroll of life" is that such ones will not be living for the duration of that new earth age.
Those found in the scroll of life will be living.
Therefore, the second death is not a second life.
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.
The second death is not a second dying.
The lake of fire is the absence of life.
The second death is called
second because it is a repetition of the
first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts. They are judged and then cast into the second such death.
The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.
The lake of fire is not about wheat and chaff. That is a wholly other matter completely different from the second death.
The lake of fire is not about "everyone will be salted with fire" (as if that means everyone ever born will be cast into the LoF). The context of that statement was Christ teaching his disciples concerning those who offend in the kingdom He will be setting up and who commit bad enough things which will cause them to be cast into the fires of Gehenna. The "
everyone" ("one" is in lightfact in the CLNT) is the "every" of the context. Every person not controlling their eyes, hands and feet as to what they do improperly will have their dead bodies destroyed by the fires of Gehenna. That is what "salted with fire" means.
Gehenna is not the lake of fire. It comes 1000 years prior to the lake of fire.
The phrase "Our God is a consuming fire" has nothing to do with Gehenna or the lake of fire. It was written to the Hebrews concerning "Heb 12:28 Wherefore, accepting an unshakable kingdom, we may have grace through which we may be offering divine service in a way well pleasing to God, with piety and dread,
Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire."
The writer of Hebrews was talking about the giving of the law on the mountain with fire and threats if anyone came near the mountain. God is not the second death. The Jews are to serve Him with piety and dread.
The phrase "fire and sulphur" (some translations say "brimstone") has nothing to do with making a person acceptable to God for those cast into the absence of life. It has everything to do with cleansing the earth, the new earth, of evil people.
The phrase "yet they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire" has to do with the judgment of the saints as to how they built on the foundation. If they built improperly with teachings like wood, hay and stubble, (those things just stand for bad teaching) then those works will be burned up. Not the parts of the saint will be burned up but their bad works. Yet, the apostle says, they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire. That is not saying they will be saved through fire but will be saved as if it were through a fire. That has nothing to do with the lake of fire and nothing to do with death.
One Corinthians fifteen verses twenty through twenty-eight is all about vivification and God's grand goal of being All in all.
In verse 1Corinthians 15:26 it says: "The last
enemy is being abolished: death." If the second death is some sort of life, then is the last enemy "life"? The last enemy is the absence of life. That death is what is keeping people from God being All in all. Once that death is done away after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is done away then death is abolished. This proves death is not abolished in the book of Revelation.
If the second death makes people acceptable to God then it is a friend and not an enemy. The Bible calls it an enemy. It is an enemy because it cuts people off from God. Everyone wants to make death a friend. But it is an enemy.
The only way those evil people will be changed is when they are resurrected out of the absence of life, put on immortality and incorruption and God is All in them. This is all due to what Christ accomplished for them. God will then be their Father and they His loving children.
:cloud9: Tony, you may not be aware of it, but WhiteWings is a European, therefore his English, though very good, may be slightly "different" in structure and the way WE would express ourselves. Nuff said? Blessings...
Quote from:
TonyDeath is the absence of life. So those cast into the second death are cast into the absence of life.
"The Walking Dead"
I'd rather be dead than to live like this
Than to just exist a hand and no fist
See the walking dead around me
Waking up and breaking down before my eyes
Rather be dead, rather shoot and miss
Rather die for a kiss than to live like this
Hear the walking dead surround me
Giving in and giving up because
[Chorus:]
We're all doing fine
And we're falling fast behind
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing our minds
We're all doing fine
Is there anyplace to hide?
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing
We're losing our minds
We walk tonight
I'd rather be dead than to have no hope inside
Watch my will bleed away and my soul divide
Feel the walking dead around me
Getting closer moving farther from the light
I'd rather be dead, stay alive to find
Somewhere I belong, someone to call mine
See the walking dead surround me
See the life and see the death and now
[Chorus:]
We're all doing fine
And we're falling fast behind
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing our minds
We're all doing fine
Is there anyplace to hide?
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing
We're losing our minds
[Chorus]
Reach out
I never get it
It's just out of reach and
I watch it slipping away
Reach out
Just forget it
It's never good enough
It's never going to be the same
[Chorus x2]
[Chorus:]
We're all doing fine
And we're falling fast behind
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing our minds
We're all doing fine
Is there anyplace to hide?
I don't think we'll be the same again
We're losing
We're losing our minds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYlLLB_ORSU6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2010, 04:19:47 PM
:cloud9: Tony, you may not be aware of it, but WhiteWings is a European, therefore his English, though very good, may be slightly "different" in structure and the way WE would express ourselves. Nuff said? Blessings...
Thanks Cardinal, I didn't know that.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death.
Scripture never directly answers the "if" in this word, "
If anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 20
15, CLT) It seems to me that if we add words to what is written, that there were 3 or 3 billion for instance, we are liable to have added to us the plagues of this book.[/quote]
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
Let's not get into a back and forth "proving" spirit, soul and body are dead in the death of the body. Many believe that only the physical body is dead in the death that results in a corpse that usually is buried or burned and that the spirit exist apart from it, which is what I believe. It is not what I'm directly asserting here. I'm only describing a path to the assumption that if the first death is the death of the body, then would the 2nd death be the death of the spirit?
There several (at least 5) ways the word death is used in the N.T.. Why, other than assuming it, should I think the 2nd death is just a repetition of the death of the body? For a long time I thought that we were born spiritually dead, which was why we needed to be born again. We are born with the 1st death. Our spirits needed to be quickened unto life by union with the Holy Spirit in our bodies with us. Those made alive like this are the bride, being in union with Him. That would make the death of the body the 2nd death.
Then Paul says, "Not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (1 Co 15
46, CLT) Does that puts us back at "spiritual" death being the 2nd death? Let me add, just because a person is honest about his belief and presents it sincerely with integrity it does not convince me that belief is factual. I need it to be clearly stated in actual Scripture's words. I've not yet found a secure understanding on this topic.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.
Any Scripture directly stating this?
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.
While I find no statement in Scripture to the effect that, "Lucifer became Satan," or that, "Satan was Lucifer," it is interesting to note that if he, "...walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire," (Ez 28
14, AV) then, because solid fire like a neutron star would be much hotter than liquid fire like our sun or the lake of fire, it would be very cold in the lake if the stone was the normal manner of existence.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts.
At least 5 times in the Bible it is recorded that, "God judges everyone by their deeds," Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus say it. It's even in the last chapter in the Bible. Everyone!
What is the absence of life?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2010, 09:27:24 AM
What is the absence of life?
Death is the absence of life.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2010, 09:27:24 AM
What is the absence of life?
No Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
No Christ.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on June 09, 2010, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death.
Scripture never directly answers the "if" in this word, "If anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 2015, CLT) It seems to me that if we add words to what is written, that there were 3 or 3 billion for instance, we are liable to have added to us the plagues of this book.
Dear reFormer, "if anyone" likewise does not mean that most of the billions resurrected to the GWT will not be cast into the second absence of life.
Rev 2:11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'The
one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection!
Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
The one conquering will be in the first resurrection and will not be injured by the second death. The mass of mankind, the billions upon billions of humans have not conquered and therefore will be injured after the GWT.
So those in the first resurrection the second death has no jurisdiction. Therefore all those who are in the resurrection after the 1000 years who will stand before the GWT, the second death will have jurisdiction. Those are the ones not having their names in the scroll of life. The conquerers will have their names in the scroll of life and not enter the second death.
(Revelation 20:15 CLV) And
if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
Also, the point is some believe the second death is life or some form of life. But how can it be life when those cast into the absence of life are the ones not found in the scroll of
life?
Also, since none are righteous, not one is just, not even one, since the venom of asps is under their lips and their feet are sharp to shed blood and all avoid him, and since this is written concerning the billions and billions of people who ever lived, how many of those people do you think should be in the scroll of life? Let me ask you this: How many of the billions of people made it on to Noah's ark? How many just had part of them die in the flood?
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
QuotereFORMer replied:
Let's not get into a back and forth "proving" spirit, soul and body are dead in the death of the body. Many believe that only the physical body is dead in the death that results in a corpse that usually is buried or burned and that the spirit exist apart from it, which is what I believe. It is not what I'm directly asserting here. I'm only describing a path to the assumption that if the first death is the death of the body, then would the 2nd death be the death of the spirit?
Tony's reply:
No. If the spirit leaves the body then the body dies and the soul returns to the imperceptible or unseen. The Bible states that "if God withdraw the spirit then all die." When the spirit of Christ returned to God Who gave it Christ died. He was in unconscious death. He wasn't playing checkers in some part of heaven while dead. He relied on God to rouse Him from death because He could not do it while dead. He did not ascend to His God and Father while in the tomb (John 20:17).
QuotereFormer wrote: There several (at least 5) ways the word death is used in the N.T.. Why, other than assuming it, should I think the 2nd death is just a repetition of the death of the body? For a long time I thought that we were born spiritually dead, which was why we needed to be born again. We are born with the 1st death. Our spirits needed to be quickened unto life by union with the Holy Spirit in our bodies with us. Those made alive like this are the bride, being in union with Him. That would make the death of the body the 2nd death.
Tony's reply: The death all these people are resurrected out of to stand before the great white throne is the first death. After they are judged according to their acts they enter into the same death again being their second death.
QuotereFORMer wrote:
Then Paul says, "Not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (1 Co 1546, CLT) Does that puts us back at "spiritual" death being the 2nd death? Let me add, just because a person is honest about his belief and presents it sincerely with integrity it does not convince me that belief is factual. I need it to be clearly stated in actual Scripture's words. I've not yet found a secure understanding on this topic.
Tony's reply:
Paul did not quote 1 Corinthians 15:46 to state what you are stating. He was talking about in verse 51 that **WE** believers shall be changed from a soulish body (a body ruled by the soul) to a spiritual body (the same body but ruled by the spirit). He was writing about the resurrection of the saints and in verses 51-54 about putting on incorruption and immortality.
If all those standing before the GWT put on incorruption and immortality they would not be hurt by the second death but we know they will because only those in the first resurrection will not be hurt by the second death nor be under its jurisdiction.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.
QuotereFORMer replied: Any Scripture directly stating this?
Tony's reply: Any Scripture directly not stating this?
The first death they were resurrected out of did not burn away anything. They enter into the second death which is a repetition of their first death.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.
QuotereFORMer replied: While I find no statement in Scripture to the effect that, "Lucifer became Satan," or that, "Satan was Lucifer," it is interesting to note that if he, "...walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire," (Ez 2814, AV) then, because solid fire like a neutron star would be much hotter than liquid fire like our sun or the lake of fire, it would be very cold in the lake if the stone was the normal manner of existence.
That is all speculation.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts.
QuotereFORMer replied:
At least 5 times in the Bible it is recorded that, "God judges everyone by their deeds," Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus say it. It's even in the last chapter in the Bible. Everyone!
Right, we believers are judged now so we are not condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32). We believers will not stand before the great white throne like the world will who will be condemned to the second death.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 04:14:14 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2010, 09:27:24 AM
What is the absence of life?
No Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
No Christ = no life = death = second death = absence of life
ERVRev 14:10 of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2010, 05:22:12 PM
ERVRev 14:10 of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And Elmer Fudd cannot pronounce 'r' properly.
Why you brought 14:10 up probably shows you don't know the context of that verse. It has to do with the destruction of Babylon *in the day of its destruction* and not about the lake of fire.
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2010, 09:04:56 AM
WW, aren't you saying things die in the LoF, not people? I.e., works not of God burned up (wood, hay, stubble), but the spirit saved "as by fire in the day of the Lord"? So there's death and destruction, but actually what comes from that is new (refined) life? As in God creating the conditions for every knee to bow and every tongue confess? I believe that's actually what J.Preston teaches, if one looks at his teachings as a whole and in context.
If that is what J. Preston Eby teaches then he is wrong.
It is not about "If
things are not written in the scroll of life."
Rev 20:15 And if
anyone was not found written in the scroll of life,
he was cast into the lake of fire."
So the "anyone" and the "he" are cast into the second death, not the bad things which they did.
Also the "wood, hay and stubble" being burned up is only to do with the believer and how they built upon the foundation. And they will be saved YET THUS AS THROUGH FIRE. It will be LIKE A FIRE but not a real fire. It is a figure of speech. They don't go through the lake of fire because we will not be judged with the world.
I wish you would write to Eby and see if he can correct his mistakes on this matter. Else all that will just be burned up like the wood hay and stubble.
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 05:26:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2010, 05:22:12 PM
ERVRev 14:10 of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And Elmer Fudd cannot pronounce 'r' properly.
Why you brought 14:10 up probably shows you don't know the context of that verse. It has to do with the destruction of Babylon *in the day of its destruction* and not about the lake of fire.
And what is Babylon? Manmade religion. And who are in that religion? People.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 05:26:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2010, 05:22:12 PM
ERVRev 14:10 of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And Elmer Fudd cannot pronounce 'r' properly.
Why you brought 14:10 up probably shows you don't know the context of that verse. It has to do with the destruction of Babylon *in the day of its destruction* and not about the lake of fire.
And what is Babylon? Manmade religion. And who are in that religion? People.
We are talking about physical Babylon at the moment. And, yes, you are correct that people will be destroyed when it is destroyed by fire much like Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone.
Quote from: TonyNo Christ = no life = death = second death = absence of life
So, no matter what--it all comes down to the same thing.
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) --1John 1
Quote from: wwAnd what is Babylon? Manmade religion. And who are in that religion? People.
Babylon is a 5000 year old satanic world system which includes manmade religion.
Proverbs 8:36
...all they that hate me love death.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 07:42:37 PMQuote from: wwAnd what is Babylon? Manmade religion. And who are in that religion? People.
Babylon is a 5000 year old satanic world system which includes manmade religion.
Agreed. That's a more correct/complete definition.
Molly, are you sure about that?
1Pe 5:13 Greeting you is the ecclesia in Babylon, chosen together with you, and Mark, my son. "
Was Jesus Christ's church in the Satanic system?
Babylon in Revelation is a city, not a Satanic system:
(Revelation 14:8 CLV) And another, a second messenger, follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!"
(Revelation 16:19 CLV) And the great city came to be divided into three parts; and the cities of the nations fall. And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation."
(Revelation 17:5 CLV) And on her forehead is written a name: Secret Babylon the Great the mother of the prostitutes and the abominations of the earth.
(Revelation 18:2 CLV) And he cries with a strong voice, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great! And it became the dwelling place of demons and the jail of every unclean spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird,
Notice only after it falls does it become a place of demons and unclean spirits and unclean birds.
(Revelation 18:10 CLV) standing afar off because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe! Woe! that great city! Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour your judging came.'"
(Revelation 18:21 CLV) And one strong messenger lifts a stone, as large as a millstone, and casts it into the sea, saying that "Thus Babylon, the great city, will be hurled down, and nevermore be found in it."
When Babylon the city is destroyed by fire and brimstone just as Sodom and Gomorrah were the people will be tormented in the day of its destruction. That day is not the lake of fire. The lake of fire comes 1000 years after the city Babylon is destroyed.
Quote from: TonyMolly, are you sure about that?
1Pe 5:13 Greeting you is the ecclesia in Babylon, chosen together with you, and Mark, my son. "
Was Jesus Christ's church in the Satanic system?
Babylon in Revelation is a city, not a Satanic system:
Yes, I'm sure. The church of Christ is in the Satanic system but not of it.
Babylon is also referred to often as a city because the city is part of the satanic system. God placed Adam in a garden, not in a city. Cain built the first city after he was banished from God.
People say--Babylon--it's New York, it's London, it's Rome. Yes, it's all of those and more. Man was not created to live in cities. Cities are satan's system.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
--Gen 2
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 08:19:20 PM
Quote from: TonyMolly, are you sure about that?
1Pe 5:13 Greeting you is the ecclesia in Babylon, chosen together with you, and Mark, my son. "
Was Jesus Christ's church in the Satanic system?
Babylon in Revelation is a city, not a Satanic system:
Yes, I'm sure. The church of Christ is in the Satanic system but not of it.
Babylon is also referred to often as a city because the city is part of the satanic system. God placed Adam in a garden, not in a city. Cain built the first city after he was banished from God.
People say--Babylon--it's New York, it's London, it's Rome. Yes, it's all of those and more. Man was not created to live in cities. Cities are satan's system.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
--Gen 2
You are sure but surely wrong. Babylon is a city. Peter didn't go to New York or London and neither did the ecclesia of Christ Peter wrote about.
What Bible verse says people are not created to live in cities? The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it. God likes cities or He would not build one.
The fact is this: in Revelation 14:8-11 it is a city which God will destroy.
"Revelation 14:8-11 CLV And another, a second messenger, follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!" (9) And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, (10) he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin." (11) And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
It is not talking about the lake of fire.
Quote from: TonyThe New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it. God likes cities or He would not build one.
well, the new Jerusalem is certainly unlike any city that has ever been seen on earth--so much so, that people consider it heaven [pearly gates, streets of gold, etc]
I myself consider it a metaphor--but that's neither here nor there.
Quote from: TonyIt is not talking about the lake of fire.
I agree with that. Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. --Rev 21
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 08:50:23 PMI agree with that. Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.
Then how long before the thousand year the destruction of Babylon takes place?
YLTRev 14:11 Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name
PS the Greek word for 'city' has the connotation of a walled fortress as one would need in time of warfare--Could we intuit that these cities will no longer be needed under the rule of Christ?
"city"
G4172
πόλις
polis
pol'-is
Probably from the same as G4171, or perhaps from G4183; a town (properly with walls, of greater or less size): - city.
G4171
πόλεμος
polēmos
pol'-em-os
From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war.
Numbers 14:8
If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
Deuteronomy 11:9
And that ye may prolong your days in the land, which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give unto them and to their seed, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
11But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
12A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 08:50:23 PM
I agree with that. Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.
I'm sorry. I was foolish enough to believe the Bible called Babylon a city even though it did not call it the world system. You must be right in spite of what the bible says.
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 09:22:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 08:50:23 PM
I agree with that. Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.
I'm sorry. I was foolish enough to believe the Bible called Babylon a city even though it did not call it the world system. You must be right in spite of what the bible says.
well, the book of Daniel and the real Babylon unlocked it for me.
Daniel, of course, was literally taken into Babylon into captivity.
But he could also see God's plan in a dream. Daniel sees an image of a man.
31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. --Daniel 2
The great image has a head of gold which represents Babylon--so now we are talking about a man made system which is driven by the mind of Babylon, and it's based on the worship of gold, mammon, false gods. This is a mind set, a system forced on the whole world today, supported by war and with feet of clay.
but we have the mind of Christ,
These are secrets, mysteries --
28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.--Dan 2
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
5And he said,....put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. --Ex 3
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
HERE (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Fantasy+Place,+Castle+Rock,+CO,+United+States&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.301626,78.662109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Fantasy+Pl,+Castle+Rock,+Douglas,+Colorado+80109&z=16) :laughing7:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is Jerusalem above as Paul states.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
What do you see? .... This would really save me and I'm sure a few others from having to search past post, and yet... give you to opportunity to put it all together in one single post! Here is your time bro... Post your entire view in a single post!!! Let your light shine brother, show me what you see! :thumbsup:
It is really simple. I will try to condense it all.
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death. Death is the absence of life. So those cast into the second death are cast into the absence of life.
It does not say that those not found in the scroll of life will live.
The most logical conclusion one can make from "those not found in the scroll of life" is that such ones will not be living for the duration of that new earth age.
Those found in the scroll of life will be living.
Therefore, the second death is not a second life.
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.
The second death is not a second dying.
The lake of fire is the absence of life.
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts. They are judged and then cast into the second such death.
The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.
The lake of fire is not about wheat and chaff. That is a wholly other matter completely different from the second death.
The lake of fire is not about "everyone will be salted with fire" (as if that means everyone ever born will be cast into the LoF). The context of that statement was Christ teaching his disciples concerning those who offend in the kingdom He will be setting up and who commit bad enough things which will cause them to be cast into the fires of Gehenna. The "everyone" ("one" is in lightfact in the CLNT) is the "every" of the context. Every person not controlling their eyes, hands and feet as to what they do improperly will have their dead bodies destroyed by the fires of Gehenna. That is what "salted with fire" means.
Gehenna is not the lake of fire. It comes 1000 years prior to the lake of fire.
The phrase "Our God is a consuming fire" has nothing to do with Gehenna or the lake of fire. It was written to the Hebrews concerning "Heb 12:28 Wherefore, accepting an unshakable kingdom, we may have grace through which we may be offering divine service in a way well pleasing to God, with piety and dread,
Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire."
The writer of Hebrews was talking about the giving of the law on the mountain with fire and threats if anyone came near the mountain. God is not the second death. The Jews are to serve Him with piety and dread.
The phrase "fire and sulphur" (some translations say "brimstone") has nothing to do with making a person acceptable to God for those cast into the absence of life. It has everything to do with cleansing the earth, the new earth, of evil people.
The phrase "yet they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire" has to do with the judgment of the saints as to how they built on the foundation. If they built improperly with teachings like wood, hay and stubble, (those things just stand for bad teaching) then those works will be burned up. Not the parts of the saint will be burned up but their bad works. Yet, the apostle says, they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire. That is not saying they will be saved through fire but will be saved as if it were through a fire. That has nothing to do with the lake of fire and nothing to do with death.
One Corinthians fifteen verses twenty through twenty-eight is all about vivification and God's grand goal of being All in all.
In verse 1Corinthians 15:26 it says: "The last enemy is being abolished: death." If the second death is some sort of life, then is the last enemy "life"? The last enemy is the absence of life. That death is what is keeping people from God being All in all. Once that death is done away after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is done away then death is abolished. This proves death is not abolished in the book of Revelation.
If the second death makes people acceptable to God then it is a friend and not an enemy. The Bible calls it an enemy. It is an enemy because it cuts people off from God. Everyone wants to make death a friend. But it is an enemy.
The only way those evil people will be changed is when they are resurrected out of the absence of life, put on immortality and incorruption and God is All in them. This is all due to what Christ accomplished for them. God will then be their Father and they His loving children.
I don't see a problem with this view? Good as any, better than most.
Paul
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 10:09:49 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is Jerusalem above as Paul states.
Where in the Bible does it say that New Jerusalem will land on the earth?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 02:18:14 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 10:09:49 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.
In what country will this happen?
Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is Jerusalem above as Paul states.
Where in the Bible does it say that New Jerusalem will land on the earth?
Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God,
the new Jerusalem,
which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Heaven refers to the sky, at to where the birds fly? There is no speaking of the 2nd heaven or third heaven as Paul spoke. So if the new Jerusalem comes down from the sky (out of heaven) , just where do you think it will desend? Did you not hear Jesus... Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Paul
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
Good point, David.
To all; Isn't much of this discussion, including the comments on Mr. Eby's POV - and now this, the New Jerusalem - back to the "spiritual vs. literal" discussion? Seems some have an extremely literal view, some an extremely spiritual one, while some see it a mixture of both (me). And I believe much of the time there's a ditch on either side. :2c:
Example - what does death mean - spiritual, physical, or both; what is Babylon - a literal city, or symbolic of a system, or both; what is New Jerusalem - a literal city, or a spiritual renewal/restoration, the "place" where the redeemed "dwell", or both. I believe many things have both a literal, and then a spiritual fulfillment - and perhaps sometimes, even both together.
My opinion/understanding....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 03:06:28 AM
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
John saw the new city Jerusalem decending out of heaven. What do you think? Do you think it floats 2 feet off the ground?
It says the kings of the earth carry their glory into it. Do they float up to the sky or do they carry while walking on the ground, their glory into it?
Rev 21:24 And the nations shall be walking by means of its light, and the kings of the earth are carrying their glory into it."
Come on beloved servant, let's try to keep it real. :dontknow:
You missed the point.
Refer to jabcat's post above yours.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 05:29:09 AM
You missed the point.
Refer to jabcat's post above yours.
I think the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head :laughing7:
I don't get the joke, please explain yourself. Thanks.
Quote from: TonyIt says the kings of the earth carry their glory into it. Do they float up to the sky or do they carry while walking on the ground, their glory into it?
The kings of the earth--that's us. :Sparkletooth:
And, their glory--that would be him.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2010, 09:00:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2010, 08:50:23 PMI agree with that. Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.
Then how long before the thousand year the destruction of Babylon takes place?
YLTRev 14:11 Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name
?
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2010, 03:18:00 AMI believe many things have both a literal, and then a spiritual fulfillment - and perhaps sometimes, even both together.
That's what I believe. Many literal things like parables and events happend/will happen both literally and spiritually. I also believe that we can get a little insight in what the spiritual event is like when compare the words to describe the spiritual event with the literal event.
QuoteQuote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 08:06:28 PM
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
I think the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head :laughing7:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 06:08:18 AM
I don't get the joke, please explain yourself. Thanks.
Well, if it doesn't land on the earth it must have flown right over your head. I was using that in parabolic fashion. The concept of the new city Jerusalem landing on the earth flew right over your head. In other words, you didn't get the concept that if it decends out of heaven it must land on the earth. :icon_flower:
That is all speculation.
Your quote from your post 487: " That is all speculation."
This is a complete quote from 487. How is it all speculation? Care to elaborate? :dontknow:
Quote from: Tony N on June 09, 2010, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on June 09, 2010, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death.
Scripture never directly answers the "if" in this word, "If anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 2015, CLT) It seems to me that if we add words to what is written, that there were 3 or 3 billion for instance, we are liable to have added to us the plagues of this book.
Dear reFormer, "if anyone" likewise does not mean that most of the billions resurrected to the GWT will not be cast into the second absence of life.
Rev 2:11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'The
one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection!
Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
The one conquering will be in the first resurrection and will not be injured by the second death. The mass of mankind, the billions upon billions of humans have not conquered and therefore will be injured after the GWT.
So those in the first resurrection the second death has no jurisdiction. Therefore all those who are in the resurrection after the 1000 years who will stand before the GWT, the second death will have jurisdiction. Those are the ones not having their names in the scroll of life. The conquerers will have their names in the scroll of life and not enter the second death.
(Revelation 20:15 CLV) And
if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
Also, the point is some believe the second death is life or some form of life. But how can it be life when those cast into the absence of life are the ones not found in the scroll of
life?
Also, since none are righteous, not one is just, not even one, since the venom of asps is under their lips and their feet are sharp to shed blood and all avoid him, and since this is written concerning the billions and billions of people who ever lived, how many of those people do you think should be in the scroll of life? Let me ask you this: How many of the billions of people made it on to Noah's ark? How many just had part of them die in the flood?
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
QuotereFORMer replied:
Let's not get into a back and forth "proving" spirit, soul and body are dead in the death of the body. Many believe that only the physical body is dead in the death that results in a corpse that usually is buried or burned and that the spirit exist apart from it, which is what I believe. It is not what I'm directly asserting here. I'm only describing a path to the assumption that if the first death is the death of the body, then would the 2nd death be the death of the spirit?
Tony's reply:
No. If the spirit leaves the body then the body dies and the soul returns to the imperceptible or unseen. The Bible states that "if God withdraw the spirit then all die." When the spirit of Christ returned to God Who gave it Christ died. He was in unconscious death. He wasn't playing checkers in some part of heaven while dead. He relied on God to rouse Him from death because He could not do it while dead. He did not ascend to His God and Father while in the tomb (John 20:17).
QuotereFormer wrote: There several (at least 5) ways the word death is used in the N.T.. Why, other than assuming it, should I think the 2nd death is just a repetition of the death of the body? For a long time I thought that we were born spiritually dead, which was why we needed to be born again. We are born with the 1st death. Our spirits needed to be quickened unto life by union with the Holy Spirit in our bodies with us. Those made alive like this are the bride, being in union with Him. That would make the death of the body the 2nd death.
Tony's reply: The death all these people are resurrected out of to stand before the great white throne is the first death. After they are judged according to their acts they enter into the same death again being their second death.
QuotereFORMer wrote:
Then Paul says, "Not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (1 Co 1546, CLT) Does that puts us back at "spiritual" death being the 2nd death? Let me add, just because a person is honest about his belief and presents it sincerely with integrity it does not convince me that belief is factual. I need it to be clearly stated in actual Scripture's words. I've not yet found a secure understanding on this topic.
Tony's reply:
Paul did not quote 1 Corinthians 15:46 to state what you are stating. He was talking about in verse 51 that **WE** believers shall be changed from a soulish body (a body ruled by the soul) to a spiritual body (the same body but ruled by the spirit). He was writing about the resurrection of the saints and in verses 51-54 about putting on incorruption and immortality.
If all those standing before the GWT put on incorruption and immortality they would not be hurt by the second death but we know they will because only those in the first resurrection will not be hurt by the second death nor be under its jurisdiction.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.
QuotereFORMer replied: Any Scripture directly stating this?
Tony's reply: Any Scripture directly not stating this?
The first death they were resurrected out of did not burn away anything. They enter into the second death which is a repetition of their first death.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.
QuotereFORMer replied: While I find no statement in Scripture to the effect that, "Lucifer became Satan," or that, "Satan was Lucifer," it is interesting to note that if he, "...walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire," (Ez 2814, AV) then, because solid fire like a neutron star would be much hotter than liquid fire like our sun or the lake of fire, it would be very cold in the lake if the stone was the normal manner of existence.
That is all speculation.
Quote from: Tony N on June 08, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts.
QuotereFORMer replied:
At least 5 times in the Bible it is recorded that, "God judges everyone by their deeds," Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus say it. It's even in the last chapter in the Bible. Everyone!
Right, we believers are judged now so we are not condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32). We believers will not stand before the great white throne like the world will who will be condemned to the second death.
[/quote]
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So, it is speculation.
Furthermore, rule No. 4 posted in the section "What You May Not do," states:
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
So, please, just because I do not agree with your opinions, do not say that the things of God are
flying right over my head.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 04:48:21 PM
Furthermore, rule No. 4 posted in the section "What You May Not do," states:
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
So, please, just because I do not agree with your opinions, do not say that the things of God are
flying right over my head.
How was my saying that the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head was saying what you believed about that as being "stupid, dumb, crazy" ?
Saying a concept flew right over your head was not saying your view or opinion was stupid, dumb or crazy even if you took it that way. You just took it the wrong way. I am not liable for people taking things the wrong way.
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So — that's speculation.
Just as you had said about another verse.
How is it than that things are flying over my head and not yours as well?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So — that's speculation.
Just as you had said about another verse.
How is it than that things are flying over my head and not yours as well?
Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven. :cool:
"Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven."
And that implies what?
That my head is not?
Tony, whether you are aware of it or not, these comments self-righteous, passive-aggressive and indirect insults.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 03:06:28 AM
It says nothing about landing on the earth.
Let's review Heaven
G3772
ουρανός
ouranós; gen.
ouranoú, masc. noun. Heaven, sky, air. The sing. and pl. are used similarly and interchangeably. There is no difference in meaning between them. (I) In the NT, in a physical sense, it means the over-arching, all-embracing heaven beneath which is the earth and all that is therein. In this not only do the fowl of the air fly (Mat_6:26; Mat_8:20; Mat_13:32), but the clouds are suspended (Mat_24:30; Mat_26:64; Luk_12:56) and the rain is formed (Jam_5:18)
So where does the holy city, new Jerusalem descend out of the Heavens (Sky) too?
Just asking
Paul
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 10, 2010, 07:12:54 PM
"Things can't fly over my head because my head is in heaven."
And that implies what?
That my head is not?
Tony, whether you are aware of it or not, these comments self-righteous, passive-aggressive and indirect insults.
Oh brother, grow some thicker skin and stop acting like a [
Mod Edit]
C'mon Tony, stop trying to push peoples' buttons. Dispense with the sarcasm and stirring up strife. This is an official mod notice.
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2010, 08:15:18 PM
C'mon Tony, stop trying to push peoples' buttons. Dispense with the sarcasm and stirring up strife. This is an official mod notice.
That's just it, jab, I'm not pushign people's buttons. Just because I said something flew over beloved's head, that is pushing people's buttons? Geesh, you people gotta grow up. Quit saying he said she said. Quit acting like little children.
I realize beloved would love nothing better than to have this thread locked down. If you want to that's your decision. But just know, saying something flew over someone's head is not sarcasm nor stirring up strife.
I'm not talking about one comment. I'm talking about an ongoing pattern of communication. To name 2, just in the past 48 hours you've indirectly questioned whether people here were Christians, now you're saying we need to grow up. I see these as unecessarily caustic comments. They don't help anyone. Again, I'm asking you to communicate in a less insulting manner. If you can't just agree to this, then we need to go to PM, because public criticism of moderation or failing to comply with mod requests carries with them a ban. So I'm available by PM if you'd like, or please just do what's asked. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2010, 08:26:46 PM
I'm not talking about one comment. I'm talking about an ongoing pattern of communication. To name 2, just in the past 48 hours you've indirectly questioned whether people here were Christians, now you're saying we need to grow up. I see these as unecessarily caustic comments. They don't help anyone. Again, I'm asking you to communicate in a less insulting manner. If you can't just agree to this, then we need to go to PM, because public criticism of moderation or failing to comply with mod requests carries with them a ban. So I'm available by PM if you'd like, or please just do what's asked. Thanks.
The phrase: "I thought you people here were christians" was almost 72 hours ago, 71 1/2, almost double the 48 hours and it was related to those who thought they were the lake of fire. It always helps to keep things in context. Now I'm not criticizing you. I'm just trying to lighten up the situation. Come on now Jab, laugh and relax a little. We are not under law but grace.
However, I'll let you slide on your math and try to be nicer in the future. I trust you know I am trying to use lightness here to defuse the situation. :boyheart:
Yes, I have a sense of humor. I get it, and I appreciate it.
I've thought about this, and I realize you're in and out, and haven't been here steadily for a bit. The thing is, moderation has tightened down over the past year. This is in large part a response to the free-for-all food fights that were going on prior to that (some of which I'll just say, you are "aware" of :bigGrin:). There have been clear statements made that things will not be allowed to even approach that level of disorder. Key word, that - disorder. I certainly haven't said anything about the law, but since you bring it up, I would think even you would agree things are to be done decently and IN ORDER. Whether or no, that being said, there are specific guidelines in place, and a not-so-specific guideline of "moderator discretion". So I'm asking for what you've agreed to ("be nicer in the future") and we ALL (present company included) need to do the same - be edifying, in love preferring one another - because none of us are above the guidelines.
Thanks Tony. I'll address this to me, since I'm often guilty - "Let all the good you have to offer not be evil spoken of, sabotaged by that little member that can wreck ships". Thanks again, God's blessings, James. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tony N on June 10, 2010, 08:22:19 PM
I realize beloved would love nothing better than to have this thread locked down.
Now there you go again.
Why did you write that?
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2010, 09:13:38 PM
Yes, I have a sense of humor. I get it, and I appreciate it.
I've thought about this, and I realize you're in and out, and haven't been here steadily for a bit. The thing is, moderation has tightened down over the past year. This is in large part a response to the free-for-all food fights that were going on prior to that (some of which I'll just say, you are "aware" of :bigGrin:). There have been clear statements made that things will not be allowed to even approach that level of disorder. Key word, that - disorder. I certainly haven't said anything about the law, but since you bring it up, I would think even you would agree things are to be done decently and IN ORDER. Whether or no, that being said, there are specific guidelines in place, and a not-so-specific guideline of "moderator discretion". So I'm asking for what you've agreed to ("be nicer in the future") and we ALL (present company included) need to do the same - be edifying, in love preferring one another - because none of us are above the guidelines.
Thanks Tony. I'll address this to me, since I'm often guilty - "Let all the good you have to offer not be evil spoken of, sabotaged by that little member that can wreck ships". Thanks again, God's blessings, James. :HeartThrob:
Jab, you are to be applauded on your most excellent words you have brought up. They have really found a place in my heart and we so often need to be reminded of them.
From now on I will go out of my way to be nice and loving and Christlike.
P.S. I don't remember the food fights but am sure they happened.
Beloved Servant, peace to you! :Peace:
Credit goes to God, I've been to the wood shed many times. :mblush: He's working in us all for His good pleasure. I still do appreciate the kind words and good attitude though. Blessings, James.
Quote...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]
That's the best line of the day. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2010, 04:14:34 AM
Quote...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]
That's the best line of the day. :laughing7:
Oh behave! :laughing7:
Paul
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2010, 04:14:34 AM
Quote...and stop acting like a [Mod Edit]
That's the best line of the day. :laughing7:
:grin:
I really was hoping to get some Scripture passages for various particulars concerning the lake of fire that we are discussing so at least some of it would sort out more conclusively in my understanding in talking about 1st, 2nd and so on of death and life. Like, is the first death what we are born in Adam with, a spirit that needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit; or is the first death the death of the body? As it is, you see a sad revenant, a "shade" really, La Sombra, not a complete man. I am but a blackened silhouette seen on a rise a little way off, shamboling along into the fiery sunset alone, leaning on my staff. I comfort myself that Jacob limped ever after God touched him in the hollow of his thigh.
I understand that when Scripture calls it "Mystical Babylon," or, "Secret Babylon" (Rv 175) it is not meant to be a literal city of stone and metal. "Mystical" is psychological, an ongoing "Secret" that the Holy Spirit initiates us into understanding and continues to illuminate us concerning. Unlike the New Jerusalem which is said to be, "...the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God..." (Rv 212) that is spiritual substance; and, while it is to be "understood," an action of the soul, it is made of real entities, not just ideas. For instance, "...the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lambkin." (Rv 2114, CLT) "The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone..." (Rv 2119, CLT) It is Jesus we are, "...approaching, a living Stone, having been rejected indeed by men, yet chosen by God, held in honor, you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pt 45, CLT)
I'm quite sure Jesus is not married to a city of metal and other crystals, gems and such. "And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin." (Rv 179-11) When our bodies are born of resurrection we are married unto Jesus physically, not sexually, but our embodiment glorified like unto His own body. This is "the wedding supper of the little lamb."
"mystery Babylon" Rev 7:5
That word 'mystery' means a secret held by the initiates [priests] of a religion. I would go so far as to say that in this context it is referring to the secret worship, observances, and practices of satan given to priests of satan, handed down only to the initiates of this religion. This [satan and satan worship] is the source and foundation of the satanic world system, Babylon.
"mystery" [Babylon]
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērionmoos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth);
a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Quote from: Reformer"The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone..." (Rv 2119, CLT) It is Jesus we are, "...approaching, a living Stone, having been rejected indeed by men, yet chosen by God, held in honor, you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pt 45, CLT)
We are to be built a spiritual house, adorned as a bride for her husband, the precious stones worn on the breastplates of the priest, the living stone uncut by human hands, fitted together as perfectly and noiselessly as the stones of Solomon's temple, quarried and prepared away from the building site, finally coming together seamlessly to build a temple of the living God. We are the new Jerusalem.
Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 11, 2010, 08:14:38 AM
I really was hoping to get some Scripture passages for various particulars concerning the lake of fire that we are discussing so at least some of it would sort out more conclusively in my understanding in talking about 1st, 2nd and so on of death and life. Like, is the first death what we are born in Adam with, a spirit that needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit; or is the first death the death of the body? As it is, you see a sad revenant, a "shade" really, La Sombra, not a complete man. I am but a blackened silhouette seen on a rise a little way off, shamboling along into the fiery sunset alone, leaning on my staff. I comfort myself that Jacob limped ever after God touched him in the hollow of his thigh.
Hi reFORMer, the way I look at the deaths spoken of in Revelation i.e. first death and second death is that the first death is what everyone is resurrected out of. The second death is a repetition of that first death.
Does the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
Death is an enemy not an enema :laughing7:
If death brought people to God like some suppose the second death will do then it would be a friend. But, sigh, it is an enemy. It is an enemy because it keeps God from being All in all. Once that enemy is abolished then God will be All in all.
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Wow . . . you beat me to it! That's eerie, I was just going to post the exact same thing.
All this discussion surrounding second death is coming from these four passages.
Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer. But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men. He is the lake of fire. The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly. The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis. It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit. it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?
Quote from: Nathan on June 11, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer. But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men. He is the lake of fire. The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly. The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis. It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit. it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.
Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:
is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?
If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?
I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 11:58:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?
That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.
KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 12:03:01 AM
Quote from: Nathan on June 11, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer. But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men. He is the lake of fire. The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly. The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis. It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit. it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.
Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:
is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?
If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?
I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.
God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man) in me to death. He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega. My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life. The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross.
All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death. Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to. They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him. But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man. When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.
Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.
Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life. He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality. And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is". So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.
Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.
And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2010, 12:14:17 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 11:58:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?
That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.
KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.
But why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."
Quote from: Nathan on June 12, 2010, 02:20:47 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 12:03:01 AM
Quote from: Nathan on June 11, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer. But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men. He is the lake of fire. The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly. The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis. It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit. it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.
Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:
is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?
If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?
I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.
God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man) in me to death. He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega. My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life. The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross.
All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death. Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to. They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him. But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man. When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.
Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.
Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life. He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality. And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is". So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.
Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.
And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?
O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?
"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 1729 links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.
For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur. It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress." Does the word sound familiar? The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold." This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.
The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before. It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire." It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"
It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 05:35:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2010, 12:14:17 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 11:58:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?
That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.
KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.
I can't give you a good defenition of what's spiritual death for me. I'll try to explain so that you may at least partly understand what I mean by that term.
We should live the way Jesus have taught us. Be honest, caring and helpful to others. Pray and believe in heavenly things. Be a saint.
But our thougts and actions are polluted by greed to name just one thing. If that get's to much we spiritually die. Maybe all but the so called reborn people are spiritually dead. People that are on the wide road. People that oppose instead of thank God.
QuoteBut why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."
We can make anything out of it TonyN. It's called different views...
IMO LoF is
not spiritual death. LoF is the death/destruction
of the spiritual death.
Let's assume we are all born with pure white robe. Everytime we sin a black spot is put on that robe. When the robe is completely black we are declared spiritually dead. When cast into LoF the robe doesn't get even more black, no it gets cleaned by the the "Fullars Soap".
So the 2nd death is the death of the black spots in my example. Not the death of the person that wears robe.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 12, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 1729 links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.
For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur. It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress." Does the word sound familiar? The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold." This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.
The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before. It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire." It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"
It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.
Noach's ark was also build from gopher wood.
KJVIsa 30:33-1 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
The purifying of the Temple was also done with brimstone. To me that means that besides of destuctive things like in Sodom brimstone is also linked to reconstructive things.
http://www.saltshaker.us/BibleStudies/RuleofLaw.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2010, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 05:35:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2010, 12:14:17 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 11:58:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 11, 2010, 02:03:52 PMDoes the bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the world "death"?
"Let the dead burry the dead"
Does the Bible ever put the word "spiritual" with the word "death"?
That's how I read that verse.
The people were physically alive. They did walk and dig. But still, according to the verse, they were dead.
So the verse is about a none physical death.
Imo that means spiritual death. I only know physical and spiritual death.
So to answer your question: Yes.
KJVMat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
O.K. WW. What you call "spiritual death" I call "figurative death." So I gather from your post that if one is not spiritual in the sense that they are fleshly then they are spiritually dead.
I can't give you a good defenition of what's spiritual death for me. I'll try to explain so that you may at least partly understand what I mean by that term.
We should live the way Jesus have taught us. Be honest, caring and helpful to others. Pray and believe in heavenly things. Be a saint.
But our thougts and actions are polluted by greed to name just one thing. If that get's to much we spiritually die. Maybe all but the so called reborn people are spiritually dead. People that are on the wide road. People that oppose instead of thank God.
QuoteBut why would God resurrect billions of people out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death once again? Remember, the meaning of the subject "lake of fire" is "the second death." And so we can't make the meaning a different meaning such as "the second death is the death of spiritual death."
We can make anything out of it TonyN. It's called different views...
IMO LoF is not spiritual death. LoF is the death/destruction of the spiritual death.
Let's assume we are all born with pure white robe. Everytime we sin a black spot is put on that robe. When the robe is completely black we are declared spiritually dead. When cast into LoF the robe doesn't get even more black, no it gets cleaned by the the "Fullars Soap".
So the 2nd death is the death of the black spots in my example. Not the death of the person that wears robe.
O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:
(Rev 1:18) and the Living One: and
I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of
death and of the unseen."
Did Jesus become spiritually dead?
(Rev 2:10) Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days.
Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."
Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?
(Rev 2:11) '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second
death."
(Rev 2:23) And her children shall I be killing with
death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."
(Rev 6:8) And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is
Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to
kill with the blade and with famine and with
death and by the wild beasts of the earth."
(Rev 9:6) And in those days men will be seeking
death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."
(Rev 12:11) And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until
death."
Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?
(Rev 13:3) And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to
death, and its
death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."
Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?
(Rev 13:12) And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose
death blow was cured."
(Rev 18:8) Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving;
death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."
(Rev 20:6) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second
death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
(Rev 20:13) And the sea gives up the
dead in it, and
death and the unseen give up the
dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?
(Rev 20:14) And
death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
death-the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:4) And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And
death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."
(Rev 21:8) Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the
second death."
Quote from: reFORMer on June 12, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
"Brimstone" occurs 8 times in the N.T., 7 in Revelation and the remaining passage in Lk 1729 links it to the Hebrew term rendered "brimstone" 7 times.
For the Hebrew gophriyth, Gesenius believes it means, "pitch" (bitumin, or tar,) "...the name of which was afterwards transferred to other inflammable materials; specially sulfur. It is probably from the (Hbr.) root gopher which is any resinous tree, specially "cypress." Does the word sound familiar? The ark was made with "gopher wood overlayed with gold." This has consistently been understood as the human/Divine nature of Jesus Christ, Who I understand to be God's true ark of the covenant.
The word in AV "brimstone," which is "sulfur," has certainly been mentioned in this topic before. It is a compound of theos, meaning "God," and ion, meaning "fire." It seems valid from the literal Word to consider the lake of fire which burns with, "fire and brimstone," to actually be burning with "fire and 'God as fire.'"
It would seem the major constituent of the lake of fire is God.
Yes Reformer. And we receive another witness to this in Daniel 7, that that fire comes from the Ancient of Days himself. He is the source of it. I mentioned the thematic connections of that chapter with part of Revelation 19 and 20 in an earlier post.
This is the quote I am referring to. I believe this witness is important to take into consideration in terms of understanding what is commonly called the Great White Throne Judgment, and the lake of fire.
Quote from: gregoryfl on May 15, 2010, 09:32:06 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 15, 2010, 07:06:52 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on May 15, 2010, 05:52:54 AM
You can also go back to the first time it is written about in Daniel 7.
Ron
Where in Daniel 7? I must have overlooked it or I am reading it wrong. Thanks
I will provide what I see to be the same event being written about, according to topic. Here is Daniel's account:
ancient of days sat: his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I saw at that time because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke; I saw even until the beast was slain, and its body destroyed, and it was given to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the animals, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
And now here is John's account:
Rev 19:20 The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of firethat burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh...
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The only time in scripture that reference is made to books used for judgment before a throne is in these 2 places, which leads me to believe Daniel and John are seeing the same event, with different nuances. One thing I note is that the fire into which the beast is thrown in Daniel's account has it's source from God himself. I surmise it is possible that God, as a consuming fire, is the source of the lake of fire into which anything not of God gets consumed, and anything which is of God remains.
Ron
Also, as an aside, I also find it interesting that the two statements concerning believers and the second death, namely, that it has no power over them (Rev 20:6) and that it does not hurt them (Rev 2:11), is only found in one other place in scripture, in Daniel's account of the 3 Hebrews thrown into the fire heated 7 times hotter than normal. They are said also to not be hurt by the fire (Dan 3:25), and that it did not have power over them (Dan 3:27). Thus I see through making these thematic connections that Daniel should be read along with Revelation as each compliments the other and shows things concerning the nature of the lake of fire.
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 02:36:18 PM
O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:
(Rev 1:18) and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
Did Jesus become spiritually dead?
I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Quote(Rev 2:10) Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days. Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."
Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?
Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.
Quote(Rev 2:11) '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
You highlighted (bolded?) 'death' in this and several other verses that follow. I don't deny the word death is in the Bible or is used in verses connected with this topic. Neither am I saying it's a wrong translation or something similar. All I ask/say is: What is teh exact meaning of the word death in those verses?
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.
Quote(Rev 2:23) And her children shall I be killing with death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."
(Rev 6:8) And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to kill with the blade and with famine and with death and by the wild beasts of the earth."
(Rev 9:6) And in those days men will be seeking death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."
(Rev 12:11) And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."
Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?
All those deaths are before loF. And some of them are normal types of deaths. They are killed because of their lack of faith. So they don't love their soul until death because: They don't even believe in souls. Or simply trusted their souls to none existing gods.
I think the horses and what their riders do are highly figurative. I don't expect to see 4 horses. But OTOH I think famine etc is very well possible. I don't understand each verse of Revelation.
Quote(Rev 13:3) And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to death, and its death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."
Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?
I think it's more like the beats was spiritual dead. Then was dormant for a while. Then came back with it's false teachings again. So it was always spiritual dead.
What exactly it is.... :dontknow:
Pehaps a thriving false religion that nearly died by lack of followers and later it got many followers again. Some believe it has to do with the power of the Vatican. There are so many views. And none of them really belong in this thread I think.
Quote(Rev 13:12) And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured."
(Rev 18:8) Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving; death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."
See above.
Quote(Rev 20:6) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
(Rev 20:13) And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?
I don't even know how there can be any resurrection. I have no power over life and death. I'm not God. The dead in those graves are just that; very dead. After resurrection they are judged in the state they were before death. Sinners. Turned away from God.
Good thoughts WW. This is turning into a very interesting thread. Good job everyone. It's really nice to hear others' understandings presented in a manner where they can be considered rather than struggling about "who's right". Though we're still "looking through a glass darkly", I think everyone here has something good to offer. Thanks! :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2010, 06:07:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 02:36:18 PM
O.K. let's look at every verse in Revelation where "death" is used and see if we can throw some more light on this subject:
(Rev 1:18) and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
Did Jesus become spiritually dead?
QuoteWW lovingly replied:
I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Interesting thought WW. But if Jesus became spiritually dead would He have even cared if the Father forsook Him? Would He now have cussed at His lot on the cross if He became spiritually dead and possibly blasphemed the Father like the spiritually dead to?
QuoteTony wrote:
(Rev 2:10) Fear nothing that you are about to be suffering. Lo! the Adversary is about to be casting some of you into jail that you may be tried, and you will be having affliction ten days. Become faithful until death, and I shall be giving you the wreath of life."
Are they to become faithful unto spiritual death?
QuoteWW replied:
Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.
Dear friend, I just recently gave a talk on "everyone shall be salted with fire" at a bible conference in Pennsylvania last week. If you will look at the context it will be interesting to take note that Christ was speaking over and over about the destruction in the fires of Gehenna. The term "salted with fire" must be taken within that context and He was not talking about "everyone who ever lived" but "everyone of the context." Everyone who is not cutting off the sins of the eye, hand and foot will not enjoy life in the 1000 year kingdom but will be destroyed in the fires of Gehenna. It is in that sense that those specific individuals will be salted with fire, the fire of Gehenna which is only in force during the 1000 years. There is a lot more to it but that is it in a nutshell.
QuoteTony wrote:
(Rev 2:11) '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
QuoteWW replied:
You highlighted (bolded?) 'death' in this and several other verses that follow. I don't deny the word death is in the Bible or is used in verses connected with this topic. Neither am I saying it's a wrong translation or something similar. All I ask/say is: What is teh exact meaning of the word death in those verses?
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.
Tony's reply: It is just my opinion, which might not even be worth a hill of beans, but it just makes sense to me that it can't be speaking of spiritual death. Why would God resurrect them out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death again? I know, at least I think I do, that the idea is that the second death is the death of spiritual death but how does that make sense since they are not written in the book of life? It doesn't say their bad parts are not in the book of life. It does not say their specific sin is not written in the book of life. It is talking about "whoever" and "he" who is not in the book of life that that "whoever" and "he" will be cast into the second absence of life.
QuoteTony wrote:
(Rev 2:23) And her children shall I be killing with death, and all the ecclesias shall know that I an He Who is searching the kidneys and hearts. And I will be giving to each of you in accord with your acts."
(Rev 6:8) And I perceived, and lo! a greenish horse, and the name of him who is sitting upon it is Death, and the Unseen followed him. And jurisdiction was given them over the fourth of the earth, to kill with the blade and with famine and with death and by the wild beasts of the earth."
(Rev 9:6) And in those days men will be seeking death, and under no circumstances shall they be finding it. And they will be yearning to die, and death is fleeing from them."
(Rev 12:11) And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."
Do they love not their soul unto spiritual death?
QuoteWW replied:
All those deaths are before loF. And some of them are normal types of deaths. They are killed because of their lack of faith. So they don't love their soul until death because: They don't even believe in souls. Or simply trusted their souls to none existing gods.
I think the horses and what their riders do are highly figurative. I don't expect to see 4 horses. But OTOH I think famine etc is very well possible. I don't understand each verse of Revelation.
Tony's reply:
Yea, there is a lot about all those symbols in Revelation we are not sure of. I don't think it is possible to know what they are all about until people actually experience them. One thing we both might be able to agree on is it won't be a party for those dwelling on the earth during that time.
Quote(Rev 13:3) And I perceived one of its heads as if it had been slain to death, and its death blow was cured, and the whole earth marvels after the wild beast."
Was the wild beast alive to God then got spiritually dead but then came back to life to God?
QuoteWW replied:
I think it's more like the beast was spiritual dead. Then was dormant for a while. Then came back with it's false teachings again. So it was always spiritual dead.
What exactly it is.... :dontknow:
Pehaps a thriving false religion that nearly died by lack of followers and later it got many followers again. Some believe it has to do with the power of the Vatican. There are so many views. And none of them really belong in this thread I think.
Tony's reply:
I think the wild beast was at enmity to God from its inception. The multi-headed beast
might be the world religions in that day like Christianity being one of the heads of the beast and Buddhism and another Islam etc. :dontknow:
QuoteTony wrote:
(Rev 13:12) And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured."
(Rev 18:8) Therefore in one day shall her calamities be arriving; death and mourning and famine. And she shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her."
QuoteWW replied: See above.
Tony's reply: I see ceiling tiles above. :laughing7: :boyheart:
QuoteTony wrote:
(Rev 20:6) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."
(Rev 20:13) And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
How does spiritual death give up the spiritually dead in them?
QuoteWW replied:
I don't even know how there can be any resurrection. I have no power over life and death. I'm not God. The dead in those graves are just that; very dead. After resurrection they are judged in the state they were before death. Sinners. Turned away from God.
I think these miltiplied billions of people will be extremely happily amazed at God's grand display of miraculous power at bringing them back to life and stand before their Saviour on the throne. But Christ did not die to keep them from needful, loving correction. Even the believer is not saved from the Father's needful, loving correction in this life. The murderer will see their victims brought back to life! How cool is that? Joran Van der Sloot will see Natalie Halloway and his recent victim brought back to life! Hitler will see the millions of Jews brought back to life. And no one will accuse God of being unjust for they will be set right as to all that occurred in their lives. Of course this is just speculation on my part. We will just have to see when it actually happens, right?
Quote from: Tony N on June 13, 2010, 12:04:04 AM
QuoteWW lovingly replied:
I think that question is enough for a long other thread....
According to some (defenitions) yes. He was cut off. But the cut off didn't start at death but at betrayal. He was seperated from Father.
KJVMat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Interesting thought WW. But if Jesus became spiritually dead would He have even cared if the Father forsook Him? Would He now have cussed at His lot on the cross if He became spiritually dead and possibly blasphemed the Father like the spiritually dead to?
Good point. Unfortunately it doesn't really 'solve' anything for me.
(in) earth is (imo) connected with death as in grave. But also with sin. Jesus was forsaken. Something was going on. Jesus lived a perfect life. And He was 'busy dying' in perfect obedience. And still forsaken. I've done my "calculations" and a little study that show death starting at betrayal is Biblical supported. imo.... So all things considered I still hold to my view; but am the first to admit it's certainly not a perfectly proven view.
QuoteQuoteWW replied:
Everyone shall be salted with fire. Either willingly LoF before death or forcefully after. Also note the word "tested" it's closely connected to 'tormented' and refiner.
Dear friend, I just recently gave a talk on "everyone shall be salted with fire" .
I have some thought on this; but I think it's not really important for this thread. It will only side-track it.
QuoteQuoteWW replied:
Is it the TonyN defenition of completly, utterly everything, stone cold death. Or.... another type of death.
It's a bit like the word fire. Sometimes it has a spiritual meaning. Other times it's nothing more than a real campfire.
Tony's reply: It is just my opinion, which might not even be worth a hill of beans, but it just makes sense to me that it can't be speaking of spiritual death. Why would God resurrect them out of spiritual death only to cast them into spiritual death again? I know, at least I think I do, that the idea is that the second death is the death of spiritual death but how does that make sense since they are not written in the book of life? It doesn't say their bad parts are not in the book of life. It does not say their specific sin is not written in the book of life. It is talking about "whoever" and "he" who is not in the book of life that that "whoever" and "he" will be cast into the second absence of life.
I don't know what exactly happens in that fire. I could write down all kind of examples. Maybe they are all correct but it would be nothing more than vanity to say I read know. That said imo the framework of the LoF is as follows.
Resurrection. The people still are as sinful as when they died. But I can accept your view at end end of your post that those people are taken completly by suprise that God even exists etc.
Let me give me one man-made example. Just how I think LoF possibly might work.
I'm a thief. I stole regulary from the poor because they have no burgelar alarm. In LoF I experience how those poor people felt. Hungry for example. That's in a way being judged as I judges others. Tormented means:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal I'm gold. Very polluted gold. LoF refines me. It confronts me with my theft until I really see, agree and feel theft is a bad thing. When the test with the stone turns out positive my time in LoF has ended. Summer school....
1 Corinthians 11:32 and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened ....
Chastened: to train children, to correct. -> Training only works if the child is awake. Not if it's dead as you define it. So this little verse to me is a tiny bit of proof there is awareness in LoF.
QuoteTony's reply:
Yea, there is a lot about all those symbols in Revelation we are not sure of. I don't think it is possible to know what they are all about until people actually experience them. One thing we both might be able to agree on is it won't be a party for those dwelling on the earth during that time.
True. Similarly I think LoF is no party either. I'm not saying being killed again (your LoF) view is happiness; but it get's the Hitlers of mankind of the hook to easy. There is a difference between sinners that just marginally deserve LoF and sinners that practically invented sin. A bit like judged according to their works. But a TonyN-LoF is equal for the tiny and gigantic sinner.
That doesn't feel ok to me.
QuoteQuoteWW replied: See above.
Tony's reply: I see ceiling tiles above. :laughing7: :boyheart:
That's often the case in a tomb TonyN. I think you are awaking :winkgrin:
QuoteHow cool is that? Joran Van der Sloot will see Natalie Halloway and his recent victim brought back to life! Hitler will see the millions of Jews brought back to life. And no one will accuse God of being unjust for they will be set right as to all that occurred in their lives. Of course this is just speculation on my part. We will just have to see when it actually happens, right?
If I had a choice... No rather not. I'm a LoFfette for sure :sigh:
Joran... never heared of him. Besides the 50 news items of last week :mblush:
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 05:37:58 AM
Quote from: Nathan on June 12, 2010, 02:20:47 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 12, 2010, 12:03:01 AM
Quote from: Nathan on June 11, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
For me, God is the consuming fire . . . he is the ultimate destroyer. But not the destruction of men, but the power of man in men. He is the lake of fire. The reason why this second death doesn't affect those in the first resurrection is because those in the first resurrection entered into it willingly and knowingly. The second death is to cleanse all others who didn't experience the first resurrection in this life . .which is what salvation is, it's the resurrection of the original order established by God way back in Genesis. It's the realignment between man's soul and man's spirit. it's purpose is to manifest the nature of God, who is spirit, in this realm of flesh.
Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:
is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?
If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?
I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.
God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man) in me to death. He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega. My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life. The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross.
All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death. Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to. They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him. But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man. When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.
Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.
Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life. He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality. And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is". So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.
Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.
And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?
O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?
"I am the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING and THE END. . . We quote that all the time . . .I'm a little confused to this line of questioning due to the fact that pretty much all UR followers believe in the "All in All" principle. God is all things . . .that would include death.
How can God "be" death if God "is" life?. That is why I say death is not the absence of life, but simply a separation of one thing from another. Adam did die the day he ate just as God said in the sense that Adam was driven out of the garden, where God resides . . .the realm of the spirit. The death was the separation from the domain of the spirit to the domain of the earth.
The lake of fire is the second death for those who were walking dead people already. The lake of fire purifies and cleanses the carnality that controled man, freeing man from the power of death . . from the power of separation. So, when death is cast into the lake, I think perhaps you're struggling with that part due to the fact that you're wrestling with God casting himself into himself . . .which isn't what I'm saying.
We're not saying the lake of fire is death . .we're saying it's the "second" death. when the first death is cast into the second death . . .it's saying the power of carnality is swallowed up in the consuming fire, the cleansing fire of God, eliminating the power of temptation all together.
The walking dead are spiritually dead . . .which is saying their walking by the power of carnality. Their spirit is disengaged, it's separated from the throne within us. Being spiritually dead is not meaning there's no life, it means life in us is separated from the ability to manfiest because we've given that authority over to our mind. It's a misalignment of order within us. But when Chirst comes in, he does in us individually what he did for the race at the cross, he realigns our spiritual order which then immediately manifests his resurrection life. At which point, when we go back to our beliefs, they've become old because the salvation has also renewed our minds, our minds now see all the old things in a new light.
He didn't say he's making all new things, he said he's making all things new. it's all about the resurrection within, not about a second death physically occuring without.
1 Coprinthians 15
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood (Natural reasoning and logic) cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery:
We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
What the renewed mind does is, it takes what once used to be a belief of things that would come after death, and it reveals the truths which are now applicable in this life. A mind that isn't renewed is one that is asleep. But we are not all asleep any longer, we've been changed. When the dead things in me are raised . . .that's the definition of what resurrection is. And it's that process of resurrection is what brings about the change in my nature and understanding. Inwardly, it's an instant experience. Outwardly, physcially, it's a process of maturity leading to intimate relationship, leading to revelational truths pertaining to the deep things of God . . .thus, Paul calls it a mystery. Because the mind can't explain it, it can only observe it.
That's really what Jesus was doing . . .among many other things, with the mount of transfiguration experience. He was revealing to Peter, James and John- threefold nature of God- that the glory of resurrection that is in us, he was showing them what it looks like on the outside. He was fulfilling the law and the propehts (Moses and Elijah) when Peter chose to make a doctrine in honor of all three when the sound of God manifested and interrupted his good intentions, but misguided zeal. You can't continue to honor something that has already been fulfilled. But that's another sermong . . .this one is pertaining to understanding death.
And death is not the purpose of his plan. It's resurrection. But to experience resurrection, we have to go through death . . he had to experience death. Death is an integral part of the plan, but it's not the plan, nor is it the emphasis of the plan. Physical death has nothing to do with spiritual life. Taking these things in a literal context only leads to more debates.
But like death, physical things do play an integral role, but all have a prupose of leading to spiritual ends.
Quote from: Nathan on June 13, 2010, 02:19:06 AM
QuoteTony wrote:
Nathan, just a couple of questions asked in a spirit of love:
is God the second death? Is God the first death? Is God the absence of life?
If God is the lake of fire is Satan going to be in God while in rebellion?
I always thought God was life (not death) and peace and righteousness.
God (lake of fire) brings the carnality (man) in me to death. He is the first and the last, the alpha and omega. My first death is my sacrifice of self that I give him willingly as a result, we become the first fruits of his resurrection, meaning that even while living in this realm of death, we have been transformed into life. The second death comes to those who did not experience the first death that comes through salvation of the cross.
All who are born of the flesh are born into sin . . .born into death. Those who receive Christ are resurrected from that death . . those who don't are the walking dead Jesus referred to. They are born into death here and then they die a second death in Him. But the purpose of the lake is not to destroy man, it's to destroy the carnality in man. When it's accomplished, man becomes purified in God . . .through the purging fire "of" God.
Death is not absense of life, it's separation of life from flesh.
Thus, no, God is of course, not the absence of life. He "is" life that brings absence of my carnality. And satan which again, is not the satan religion has engrained in us to beleive him to be, but instead, satan simply means adversary, which is what my carnal mind "is". So the carnality that decieves us is what's cast into the lake of fire, which is a baptism of cleansing . . .and no, once carnality is cast/baptized into the cleansing fire of God's nature, it can not continue to "be" rebellion.
Otherwise one would be saying the power of satan can resist the presence of God.
And if you believe as you say in that God is truly life and light, then should we no longer embrace doctrines of death and destruction of men in the first place?
O.K. so, for God to be the second death, if, as you say, the lake of fire is God, then God had to be the first death too?
[/quote]
QuoteNathan wrote: "I am the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING and THE END. . . We quote that all the time . . .I'm a little confused to this line of questioning due to the fact that pretty much all UR followers believe in the "All in All" principle. God is all things . . .that would include death.
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in every
thing" but has to do with Adam's posterity. That is what 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is all about. It is not a present fact but a future event which will surely take place.
QuoteTony asked: How can God "be" death if God "is" life?. Nathan replied: That is why I say death is not the absence of life, but simply a separation of one thing from another. Adam did die the day he ate just as God said in the sense that Adam was driven out of the garden, where God resides . . .the realm of the spirit. The death was the separation from the domain of the spirit to the domain of the earth.
But Adam didn't die the day he ate. He did however begin the dying process "To die shall you be dy
ing and then God gave the explanation of that saying by telling Adam he would work by the sweat of his brow till he return to the soil.
So you get to re-define death so it won't interfere with your theology? :dontknow:
Literal death is the absence of life. If one is not in the book of life then he/she will not be living in any way, shape or form on the new earth. It does not say that if anyone is not in the book of life they will life in another form. Neither does it say that if one is not in the book of life that just part of that person will die.
QuoteNathan wrote: The lake of fire is the second death for those who were walking dead people already. The lake of fire purifies and cleanses the carnality that controled man, freeing man from the power of death . . from the power of separation. So, when death is cast into the lake, I think perhaps you're struggling with that part due to the fact that you're wrestling with God casting himself into himself . . .which isn't what I'm saying.
You said: "Walking dead people already"? Are they resurrected out of "walking dead"? I don't believe God casts Himself into Himself. I don't have any problem with death cast into the second death. As I stated before, "death" in that instance is a menonymy for all held by death who were not part of the first resurrection.
QuoteNathan wrote: We're not saying the lake of fire is death . .we're saying it's the "second" death. when the first death is cast into the second death . . .it's saying the power of carnality is swallowed up in the consuming fire, the cleansing fire of God, eliminating the power of temptation all together.
So Christ's death wasn't powerful enough to take away the carnality? God has to now go to plan 'B' to get rid of carnality (by using a LoF)? It is my understanding that the only time these people are **changed** from corruption to incorruption is when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) and then God is All in them and they put on immortality and incorruption. The lake of fire happens many thousands of years prior to God being All in all. So that event (the LoF) can't be the event which makes mankind acceptable to God.
QuoteNathan wrote:
The walking dead are spiritually dead . . .which is saying their walking by the power of carnality. Their spirit is disengaged, it's separated from the throne within us. Being spiritually dead is not meaning there's no life, it means life in us is separated from the ability to manfiest because we've given that authority over to our mind. It's a misalignment of order within us. But when Chirst comes in, he does in us individually what he did for the race at the cross, he realigns our spiritual order which then immediately manifests his resurrection life. At which point, when we go back to our beliefs, they've become old because the salvation has also renewed our minds, our minds now see all the old things in a new light.
Tony's reply:
But Nathan, according to Paul, death, the enemy, is not abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28) and then and only then God will be All in all. Christ is still reigning throughout John's revelation. So you can't say the lake of fire is going to make all mankind perfected and give them a second life if you will. Their righteousification comes only after death is abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are done away with. That happend beyond or after John's revelation, so it can't be done in the LoF.
Just to let you know, my thoughts are given in love and peace and not meant to inflame.
In deciding this point as to the second death it will help
us to note that the phrase "this is the second death" is an
explanation of what the lake of fire is. We have quite a few
such explanations in the book of the Revelation (Unveiling).
They are of two kinds; explanations of figures and
explanations of literal facts. The important point for us to
note is that, in no case, is the explanation figurative. The
seven stars (Rev.1: 20) are figures; those they represent, the
"angels" or messengers, are literal. So with the lampstands
and the ecclesias or "churches" (Rev.1:20). The statement
"the horns are ten kings" stamps the beast with the horns
as a figure and the ten kings as literal (Rev.17:12). Likewise,
the waters which John saw may not be real water,
but the peoples and multitudes and nations are just what
these words ordinarily imply (Rev.17:15). So with great
Babylon. When we read, "the woman which thou sawest
is the great city" let us rest content with God's explanation
and refuse to explain it further (Rev.17:18). If the messengers
and the ecclesias and the kings and the peoples are literal,
then the city must also be a literal city and not some
religious system or ecclesiastical power.
By this test, the Divine explanation of the lake of fire
must be literal death. We may not reason backward from
this that the lake of fire is figurative, though it undoubtedly
is full of significance.
When we read of the "fine linen, which is the righteousness
of the saints" (Rev.19:8) we may well take the
robes as literal, yet at the same time a most apt symbol
of the just deeds of those who wear them. A literal statement
may be explained as well as a figurative one. But in
any case, whether the lake of fire be taken literally or
figuratively, the laws of language bar us from making
the explanation of it aught but a literal fact. In some instances when
involved with other figures, as in an allegory (Gal.4:25),
the explanation does not, as first glance, seem literal. But
a closer view of even such cases will show that the rule still holds.
Never let us explain God's explanations.
(A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches).
I agree, many things are literal and spiritual. So not in direct response to TonyN's last post, but in reading WilliH's post of L. Ray Smith on 'hell', I came across the following. I found it interesting and pertinent to this discussion, and it may provide further insight and/or things to discuss;
"METAPHORS, PARABLES, AND FIGURES OF SPEECH
Fire is figurative language for judgment - cleansing and purifying. Heb. 12:29 says that
"GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE."
Is God literally composed of physical fire? No, God is "SPIRIT" (John 4:24), and God is "INVISIBLE" (Col. 1:15). How can something that is visible and physical as fire be SPIRIT?
This is a metaphor, where one thing is said to be something else. such as:
"the lake of fire IS the second death"
"this bread IS My body"
"the word of God IS sharper than a sword"
"the good seed ARE the children of the kingdom"
"you ARE the salt of the earth"
"the seven candle sticks ARE the seven churches"
None of these are literal. They are only "like" the things they are said to be, and even then, they are like these things, but only in certain ways.
And so God is "like a consuming fire" in certain ways. Many times Scriptures will use the word "like" rather than "is." Here's a perfect example in Malachi 3:2-3, where fire is also used, figuratively:
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
And I see it in the same light as Willie is explaining. I see them in faith, rather than emphasizing them as literal facts, I believe there "is" a literal application as well, but I believe the literal application was meant for those to whom it was literally written to. And even then, it was still metaphoric in it's delivery.
Is Jesus literally in the appearance of a lamb that had been slain? Or is he literally with feet of bronze? Hair of pure white? Understanding the significance of these things for me, is to let go of the literal implications and pursue the spiritual. Numbers are there for a purpose, colors are there for a purpose, positions are mentioned for a reason . .whether it's standing, seated, reaching or bowing, each motion has a spiritual, an inward implication.
So for me to accept the lake of fire as a "literal" death, would mean I would have to let go of the other things I've seen in faith. It would mean the other things seen in faith have no relevance, and I believe the spiritual carries "more" relevence than the natural, which is why I choose not to embrace the attempts at literal explainations.
A literal hell, a literal lake of fire, a literal thousand year reign . . .on and on . . .I see each item as a symbol leading to a more illuminating truth of the nature of the Father rather than some future event still pertaining to the realm of the flesh. So, yes, they are literal and spiritual. The key is, to which do I choose to identify and pursue?
Hi Nathan,
To believe something God has said is taking it by faith.
So if God says "the seven candlesticks are the seven churches" to believe they really are seven churches is to take it by faith that that is what they are.
To say, "Well, the seven churches aren't really seven churches but are actually an interior aardvark acting like a sea horse parading itself in a bathtub" is not of faith. To believe something by faith is to actually believe God that what He says something is something it really is something He says it is.
To believe "The Lamb is the King of kings and Lord of lords" (see Rev.17:14) we know God is not talking about a literal lamb but He is talking about a literal King of kings and Lord of lords and so we believe Him that that is just what it is.
You know what occurs to me that would be neat, is to see a sort of chart or list of things like this; i.e., seven lamp stands = seven groups of called ones (Phil., Smyrna, etc.)
Eyes as of fire = _____________
White stone/pebble = __________
King of kings, Lord of lords = _____________
Babylon = __________
The whore the nations commit adultary with = _______________
You know, a breakdown of what can be seen as literal, what is metaphorical, etc. But then I think there could probably be many different charts/lists, based on individuals' understandings - and all coming from brothers/sisters and saints. Such as Mr. Eby's chart would probably look quite different than Mr. Knoch's. An example of this would be what we've discussed recently - Dead = "what" exactly? Spiritually dead, physically dead - dead for a second, dead for 1,000 years, or option #5.... :sigh:
It's a wish, but never mind... :happy3:
I do know Jesus was dead and is now resurrected/alive!
Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch. We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:
Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 02:24:33 AM
Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch. We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:
Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.
Busy times for you James :Book:
Better call your wife that you sleep at office the next few days :lazy:
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity. That is what 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is all about. It is not a present fact but a future event which will surely take place.
What God makes is out of Himself. The formulation of theologians centuries ago was that God made things
ex nihilo was only meant to say there is no eternally co-existent matter along with God. He is God alone and He made everything out of nothing. But notice, when He says, "'Light be,' and light was," that expression came out of Him. He is the substance of all form. What do you think, 'From Him, through Him and to Him is the all..." (Rm 11
36) means?! PanENtheism, which its detractors say doesn't differ from pantheism? The problem with this is not recognizing that is not all by which God is defined. Similar to the fact He is both transcendent and personal is that He is all that there is and, at the same time, everything else is not God. He is holy, set apart from everything else that exists.
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
...according to Paul, death, the enemy, is not abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28) and then and only then God will be All in all. Christ is still reigning throughout John's revelation. So you can't say the lake of fire is going to make all mankind perfected and give them a second life if you will. Their righteousification comes only after death is abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are done away with. That happened beyond or after John's revelation, so it can't be done in the LoF.
Not just future, "...that God may be All in all." 1 Co 15
28)
The present reality is, "...all and in all is Christ." (Co 3
11)
(This is not dependent on the extent of our perception of it to determine its validity.)
Of course I can repeat how some exegete these statements away, largely by "contextualism," but their arguments do not satisfy. (Perhaps someone with the Concordant Interlinear can put the difference between these two statements before us. There's a difference in the placement of the Greek articles. My Interlinears are still packed, probably in the attic.)
Notice the following in Isaiah:
Strong's H657 ephec 1) ceasing, end, finalityIsa 45:5 I [am] the LORD 3068, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God 430 beside 2108 me: I girded 247 thee, though thou hast not known 3045 me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know 3045 from the rising 4217 of the sun 8121, and from the west 4628, that [there is]
none 657 beside 1107 me. I [am] the LORD 3068, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:14 Thus saith 559 the LORD 3068, The labour 3018 of Egypt 4714, and merchandise 5505 of Ethiopia 3568 and of the Sabeans 5436, men 582 of stature 4060, shall come over 5674 unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come 3212 after 310 thee; in chains 2131 they shall come over 5674 , and they shall fall down 7812 unto thee, they shall make supplication 6419 unto thee, [saying], Surely God 410 [is] in thee; and [there is] none else, [there is]
no 657 God 430.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith 559 the LORD 3068 that created 1254 the heavens 8064; God 430 himself that formed 3335 the earth 776 and made 6213 it; he hath established 3559 it, he created 1254 it not in vain 8414, he formed 3335 it to be inhabited 3427 : I [am] the LORD 3068; and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:22 Look 6437 unto me, and be ye saved 3467 , all
the ends 657 of the earth 776: for I [am] God 410, and [there is] none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember 2142 the former things 7223 of old 5769: for I [am] God 410, and [there is] none else; [I am] God 430, and [there is]
none 657 like 3644 me,
It seems to me that God here may be also understood as saying there is nothing else that exists but Himself.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
— Hebrews 11
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 07:49:15 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 02:24:33 AM
Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch. We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:
Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.
Busy times for you James :Book:
Better call your wife that you sleep at office the next few days :lazy:
You mean
you're not going to pull all that info together? :Whistle:
I may be tempted to look at it, but not right now. It does sound like a LOT of work...
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 10:41:23 AMYou mean you're not going to pull all that info together? :Whistle:
You are a man with great insight!
Perfect for the job :thumbsup:
Yer enlisted :laughing7:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 08:01:35 AM
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
— Hebrews 11
Through "faith" I understand . . .not through knowledge or text. It's through faith I understand the text. Most are taught to build faith through text and that has only lead to division and debate. If I already am convinced a word is written a certain way, any further reading is going to be understood through that same perspective. In other words, if I'm a literalist, everything I read is going to be read as literal. And to see things which were not made from literal things can only be understood as being seen as spiritual.
The things seen are used as symbols to reveal the unseen things to us. Which causes me to repeat myself in this topic of Revelation in that it has literal application, but the literal application's purpose is to reveal spiritual truth. I'm not to "take" it literally, I'm to use the literal illustrations as symbols revealing spiritual truth . . . thus, I'm to pursue the spiritual nature of what's been written.
So yeah, all of those descriptions of hair of white wool, eyes of fire, feet of bronze, voice of thunder . . .they all have spiritual/metaphorical understanding.
When it thunders out, what causes the thunder? Is it not the clashing of atmospheres? A low pressure colliding with a high pressure? What is that spiritually? Paul states there's a war going on in all of us . . .inwardly, there's always spiritual storms happening. Scripture refers to rain as teaching. Wind implies spirit moving. Water implies spirit flowing. The thunder creates a shaking and earthquakes in us are spiritual realignment in our earthiness of thinking.
I simply use the nature of the natural symbols and apply them to my spiritual condition and experiences. Is there really a literal sword that comes out of Jesus mouth that literally kills the nations who are literally rising up against Jerusalem? Or could it be the same sword Ephesians speaks of as well as the gospels that state the power and purpose of the sword is to divide, to discern the spiritual from the literal . . .bone and marrow, soul and spirit.
The message of Jesus is not the same message of the Old Covenant law. The Old Covenant is the literal manifestation of the spiritual principles. Jesus was the substance of those literal things. It's all symbolized to be something my natural eyes can't see and my natural mind can't comprehend.
My mind is dominant in this natural realm and that's what it's purpose was always to be. To govern "me" through these natural experiences of life. But when it comes to spiritual things, the rules change because my mind is not equipped to operate with spiritual truths in the same way it operates with natural things. And there lies the conflict.
I'm not saying we're to become mental invalids . . .I'm saying my mind is to go from governing the natural, to merely "observing" in the spiritual. How many times have we seen Jesus speak "peace" . ."do not be afraid" . . .our minds are extremely reactive to the surroundings around us for the main purpose to protect our well being. But when it comes to spiritual things, our minds don't know how to operate effectively and accurately so when we try to use the same principles of learning in the spiritual things as we did with natural things, it all becomes confusion to us.
It's an act of submission for one to lay one's mind down and "let" the Spirit breathe on what's been written in order for the underlying truths to emerge and reveal the nature of the Son "to" us. When we "see" the transformation take place before us, we then "become" what we behold. I promise you, that day on the mount of transfiguration, Peter, James, and John came back in a completely different mindset than when they left.
But even there, it's after the pattern of the Sabbath. That incident happened on the seventh day.
Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
The rules for living in the Sabbath are pretty much opposite from the rules of living in the days of labor. This is a Sabbath Day message based on Sabbath Day principles. It doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it doesn't come through natural reasoning and mental labor . . .it's a personal "experience". The natural words and literal things are merely signs "pointing" to truth.
For me, the Bible is a book of signs . . .it's pointing to Truth, but it is not truth in and of itself. The only thing that makes it come alive when it's being read is the spirit of God, dwelling within the reader.
Quote from: Nathan on June 15, 2010, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 08:01:35 AM
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
— Hebrews 11
A more faithful rendition of the above verse would be thus:
Quote"By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God,
so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing."
-- Hebrews 11
The context is all about the eons being adjusted by God's declaration. What is being observed (Israel being cast aside and the promises put on hold) . It was a secret administration hid in God and revealed to Paul. We could not have known of this adjustment had not God given the knowledge to Paul and Paul write it and send the information to the churches.
QuoteNathan wrote:
For me, the Bible is a book of signs . . .it's pointing to Truth, but it is not truth in and of itself. The only thing that makes it come alive when it's being read is the spirit of God, dwelling within the reader.
What part of this is not the truth in and of itself? . . .
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 CLV (1) Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which I bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand, (2) through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly." (3) For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, (4) and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures,
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.
JOHN'S ACCOUNT
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Tony, what I mean by saying that is . .those words in and of themselves don't illuminate anything to anyone. it's the Spirit that makes them come alive to you so that in this account, to you, it's obvious they speak of light and life . . .but this stems from your relationship with the Father. The spirit is what gives you confidence in what you're seeing it to say. Without the Spirit revealing anything, they're just words.
Look at the kind of damage the Pharisees did with God's words. Paul set out to kill people in the name of God. It was common practise. They had the scrolls, then knew the word, but they couldn't see, nor could they hear. That's all I'm saying here.
Nathan, that's cool.
Yea, without God opening up our eyes and hearts and minds it is just words.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia,
a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, revering God,
heard, whose heart the Lord opens up to heed what is spoken by Paul."
Had the Lord not opened up Lydia's heart she could not have heeded what Paul said.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 05:17:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.
JOHN'S ACCOUNT
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 12:35:29 AM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar? The Lamb?
KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Tormented
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 05:17:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.
JOHN'S ACCOUNT
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.
Would you please rephrase that. It is convoluted to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 12:35:29 AM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar? The Lamb?
KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Dear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.
If I say "My ex wife is built like a tank," you would not say she is a tank or that she was put together on an assembly line like they do military tanks.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 05:17:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 14, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.
JOHN'S ACCOUNT
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.
Would you please rephrase that. It is convoluted to me.
Your quoting John 1:1-3 does not prove God will be All in everything. John 1:1-3 just proves everything came into being by the word.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is about all humans. God will be All in all humans. To go beyond that is to go beyond the context of the passage.
If everything came into being by His Word, then where did the substance of everything come from?
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 08:10:12 PMDear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.
Dear TonyN, does it take a lot of practice to always misunderstand things?
We're a little off topic here. I'll make it short, maybe we can get back to the OP. Again, I agree with Spirit-revelation. There are just 3 things though that I'll again point out, that IMO - for me, for my understanding - cannot be overlooked. And I believe the Word itself agrees.
All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16
For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation; it can cut much better than any two-edged sword; it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts; and it can judge the feeling and thoughts of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
These are not just dead words on a page. ADDENDUM - I believe it has to do, as I said before, with God veiling or revealing them, as suits His purposes. (Most Jews reading the scriptures are still veiled to this day, according to Paul.) Yet the Spirit uses them as God wishes, to "accomplish what He purposes, and to succeed in the thing for which He sends it".
Lake of Fire....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 08:10:12 PMDear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.
Dear TonyN, does it take a lot of practice to always misunderstand things?
Dear WW. I don't know if it takes lots of practice. I've never had to work at it. Stupidity just comes natural with me :laughing7:
But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:
QuoteQuote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar? The Lamb?Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.
To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote:
"So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 08:40:02 PM
If everything came into being by His Word, then where did the substance of everything come from?
Everything that exists came out of God "Out of Whom all is."
But that is a completly different thing from God's goal to be All in all humans.
Thank you.
Would you please explain?
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 09:06:03 PM
But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:
QuoteQuote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar? The Lamb?
Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.
To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote: "So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.
It's a fact I didn't misunderstood Jabcat. I fully agree with his conclusion at teh end of his post.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood me. We are all human and prone to err.
I don't understand that it even crossed your mind that I think Father is a piece of soap. :sigh:
It's about having a similar function. What earthly soap does to physical stains the devine fullars soap does to spiritual stains.
My post wasn't a grammar contest to bicker about "is" and "like". It was about the link betweens Jabcats last verse and the topic of this thread.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 09:19:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 09:06:03 PM
But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:
QuoteQuote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."
WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar? The Lamb?
Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.
To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote: "So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.
It's a fact I didn't misunderstood Jabcat. I fully agree with his conclusion at teh end of his post.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood me. We are all human and prone to err.
I don't understand that it even crossed your mind that I think Father is a piece of soap. :sigh:
It's about having a similar function. What earthly soap does to physical stains the devine fullars soap does to spiritual stains.
My post wasn't a grammar contest to bicker about "is" and "like". It was about the link betweens Jabcats last verse and the topic of this thread.
I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "
so He's the soap") have no meaning. Peace bro.
jabcat, care to help out?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 15, 2010, 09:12:19 PM
Thank you.
Would you please explain?
I'm not sure what I need to explain :dontknow:
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 09:51:23 PM
I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.
Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2010, 08:55:47 PM
We're a little off topic here. I'll make it short, maybe we can get back to the OP. Again, I agree with Spirit-revelation. There are just 3 things though that I'll again point out, that IMO - for me, for my understanding - cannot be overlooked. And I believe the Word itself agrees.
All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16
For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation; it can cut much better than any two-edged sword; it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts; and it can judge the feeling and thoughts of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
These are not just dead words on a page. ADDENDUM - I believe it has to do, as I said before, with God veiling or revealing them, as suits His purposes. (Most Jews reading the scriptures are still veiled to this day, according to Paul.) Yet the Spirit uses them as God wishes, to "accomplish what He purposes, and to succeed in the thing for which He sends it".
Lake of Fire....
I have no intentions of degrading the written word . . .if that's what's bringing caution to others, my most humble apologies. My intent is to de-emphasize the literal application and pursue the spiritual . . this is all I've been trying to share from the beginning. I'm not saying eliminate the literal, there "is" literal meaning there, but the meat of the matter is in the spiritual revelation that lies beneath . . .but to say the Bible is worth little is to become ignorant to all of it. It's "through" reading the words that I feel we are led to the depths of the spirit so reading is still just as important as it ever was.
I do believe God's word divides soul from flesh . .just not always in the form of the "Bible". I believe truth is obviously there, but when our minds are governing our hearts, even the Bible becomes distorted in our understanding. There's no condemnation, there are still things engrained in me that come to the surface that I myself, must be willing to let go of for change to come and make the burden of trying to "understand" it all even lighter.
.
I believe just as you quoted the Word of God is for, and I paste . . .rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. To me, that's saying the rebuking, correcting and training is to be directed to my "inward" man. I'm to apply it to "me" rather than pitch it on to other people. So that THE MAN (corporate man) may be thoroughly equipped.
Otherwise, if I'm to use the Bible to reproof you, then it becomes more about making others submit to my standards and I turn truth back into religion all over again.
Again, agree with much of what you have to say here.
The Tony's... :happygrin:
Yes, I'm just saying there are many things that actually are, many that are like, and then probably some things that are both. Just as some things are literal, some spiritual, some symbolic, and maybe some to be taken as all 3. IMO, the "challenge" is be able to understand (be revealed) as to which is which...thus the many different POVs and understandings - and I don't claim to have the best handle on it. Still learning, glass darkly, and I think it's very interesting.
Maybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other. Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 09:51:23 PM
I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.
Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.
When He comes LIKE fuller's soap, that does not mean He is the soap or the fuller but maybe He is
like that soap in that His presence will clean away the filth.
I thought John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible was interesting on the Fuller's or launderer's soap:
for he is like a refiner's fire; partly by the ministry of the word, compared to fire, Jer_23:29 separating pure doctrines from ones of dross; and partly by his fiery dispensations and judgments on the wicked Jews, when he distinguished and saved his own people from that untoward generation, and destroyed them:
and like fuller's soap; or "fuller's herb", as the Septuagint and Vulgate Latin versions render it, and Jarchi interprets it: and so R. Jonah (s) interprets it of an herb which fullers use: and in the Misna (t) this is one of the seven things used to take out spots, namely, "borith", the word here used; and which Maimonides (u) says is a plant known by the name of "algasul" and "gazul" in the Arabic language: it signifies something by which filth is washed away; and so Bartenora (w) says it is a plant which purifies and cleanses; and Jerom (x) relates that this herb grows in Palestine, in moist and green places, and has the same virtue as nitre to take away filth; agreeably to which some other versions render it "fuller's weed", or "soap weed" (y). The Syriac version is,
"as sulphur that makes white;''
and fullers, with the Romans, were wont to make use of that along with chalk to take out spots; and so Pliny (z) speaks of a kind of sulphur which fullers make use of. A metaphor signifying the same thing as before, the removing of spotted doctrines or spotted persons, the one by the preaching of the Gospel, the other by awful judgments, as spots in garments are removed by the fuller's herb or soap.
Quote from: Nathan on June 15, 2010, 10:50:18 PM
I have no intentions of degrading the written word . . .if that's what's bringing caution to others, my most humble apologies. My intent is to de-emphasize the literal application and pursue the spiritual . . this is all I've been trying to share from the beginning. I'm not saying eliminate the literal, there "is" literal meaning there, but the meat of the matter is in the spiritual revelation that lies beneath . . .but to say the Bible is worth little is to become ignorant to all of it. It's "through" reading the words that I feel we are led to the depths of the spirit so reading is still just as important as it ever was.
I do believe God's word divides soul from flesh . .just not always in the form of the "Bible". I believe truth is obviously there, but when our minds are governing our hearts, even the Bible becomes distorted in our understanding. There's no condemnation, there are still things engrained in me that come to the surface that I myself, must be willing to let go of for change to come and make the burden of trying to "understand" it all even lighter.
.
I believe just as you quoted the Word of God is for, and I paste . . .rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. To me, that's saying the rebuking, correcting and training is to be directed to my "inward" man. I'm to apply it to "me" rather than pitch it on to other people. So that THE MAN (corporate man) may be thoroughly equipped.
Otherwise, if I'm to use the Bible to reproof you, then it becomes more about making others submit to my standards and I turn truth back into religion all over again.
WHERE you are in the story will determine WHAT you perceive from it.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
(Isa 28:9-13)
Quote from: Tony N on June 16, 2010, 02:32:34 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2010, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 15, 2010, 09:51:23 PM
I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.
Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.
When He comes LIKE fuller's soap, that does not mean He is the soap or the fuller but maybe He is like that soap in that His presence will clean away the filth.
Yes, like. "same function" as I wrote.
Now we finally got that settled the next step.... Is there only a something/someone that is like the soap? Or is there also a person that uses that something/someone?
The Lamb perhaps.....
KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Tormented
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2010, 01:45:00 AMthus the many different POVs and understandings - and I don't claim to have the best handle on it.
James, it's not about views. We don't agree on them. That's clear from previous posts. The way I see it Tony doesn't even understand what I'm trying to say/ask in my last few posts. Without understanding eachother stricktly speaking we can't know if our POVs clash.
If I correctly understand Tony's question to you, he asks you if you can translate my view into English :bgdance:
QuoteMaybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other. Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin:
Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:
Fuller's soap
Fulling or tucking or walking ("waulking" in Scotland) is a step in woollen clothmaking which involves the cleansing of cloth (particularly wool) to eliminate oils, dirt, and other impurities, and making it thicker. The worker who does the job is a fuller, tucker, or walker.
Fuller's soap
(Heb. borith mekabbeshim, i.e., "alkali of those treading
cloth"). Mention is made (Prov. 25:20; Jer. 2:22) of nitre and
also (Mal. 3:2) of soap (Heb. borith) used by the fuller in his
operations. Nitre is found in Syria, and vegetable alkali was
obtained from the ashes of certain plants. (See SOAP ¯T0003467.)
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2010, 09:08:59 AM
If I correctly understand Tony's question to you, he asks you if you can translate my view into English :bgdance:
QuoteMaybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other. Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin:
Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:
http://www.freetranslation.com/
Yes Molly.
Now my thought is that LoF is that fullars soap. Oops "looks like" sorry TonyN :-)
Jesus and the angels are watching for the people/gold to be tested/tormented in LoF.
For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
Also: the robes/gold is aware it's being processed.
IMO those verses tell us a bit about what LoF is like. It's function.
QuoteFor me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers? Because that happens in the blink of an eye.
Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2010, 10:23:52 AM
QuoteFor me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers? Because that happens in the blink of an eye.
Perhaps yes. Other possibility is that for the saints it's a one step process. For the sinner a 2 step process.
I don't have it all clear for myself. It's just then everytime I think of LoF I get a strong feeling all those verses are part of the LoF story. Even if they can
also placed in other literal/historical context.
Proof? Well that's what I want to talk about. Although my post may look like a statement it's more a thought mixed with question.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2010, 09:08:59 AM
Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:
Yesterday I went to my doctor and he said he has good news and bad news.
I asked, what's the good news?
He said: You have 24 hours to live.
I asked: What's the bad news?
He said: That was yesterday but I couldn't get hold of you.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2010, 10:41:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2010, 10:23:52 AM
QuoteFor me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers? Because that happens in the blink of an eye.
Perhaps yes. Other possibility is that for the saints it's a one step process. For the sinner a 2 step process.
I don't have it all clear for myself. It's just then everytime I thing of LoF I get a strong feeling all those verse are part of the LoF story. Even if they can also placed in other literal/historical context.
Proof? Well that's what I want to talk about. Although my post may look like a statement it's more a thought mixed with question.....
For me, the spiritual cleansing is instantaneous, but the outward changing is more of a process. I have to retrain my mind how to think, what to let go of and what to embrace. Many things get embraced due to habitual thinking. In the spirit, it's all finished. In the flesh, time governs the process.
If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?
If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?
Before that abolishment of death, during the 1000 year millenium peace the people only live to a ripe old age over 100
There is a scripture that says anyone who does not live to a ripe old age of over 100 is accounted accursed
But after death is abolished and Satan is cast into the lake of fire the people of the nations of the Earth are allowed to enter the new Jerusalem the heavenly city, the new home of the saints. Inside this place is the tree of life that allows people to live forever. This is the same type of tree of life that Adam and Eve had access to in the garden of Eve.
Death will probably still exist for animals, insects, etc (but maybe not, because there are also leaves on the tree of life that are there for the healing of the nations) and also any nation that does not come to New Jerusalem to honour the king will be cut off from the city. Revelation also says that let the unrighteous be unrighteous still let the righteous be righteous still.
Thieves, liars, etc etc, will not be allowed the enter the heavenly city, for nothing shall enterin that defileth.
Its important to note that new Jerusalem is not Earthly Jerusalem, but it is from heaven and the lamb himself is in the midst of it.
Quote from: thinktank on June 16, 2010, 07:01:16 PMBefore that abolishment of death, during the 1000 year millenium peace the people only live to a ripe old age over 100
There is a scripture that says anyone who does not live to a ripe old age of over 100 is accounted accursed
This one TT?
KJVIsa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
NETIsa 65:20 NET Isaiah 65:20 Never again will one of her infants live just a few days or an old man die before his time. Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred, anyone who fails to reach the age of a hundred will be considered cursed.
The way I read it both saint and sinner will die in the 1000 years reign.
Sinners before 100 years of age. Saints at a later age.
/edit I'm quite sure ther is something similar in Revelation; but I can't find it right now.
That's exactly it whitewings :happygrin:
Good work :bgdance:
You'll make a great wingman yet , :thumbsup:
Take out those bandits!
The one thing that seems to still be getting overlooked is this is not pertaining to literal/natural experiences . . .the earth is now under the curse due to the fall of Adam. It's not . . .okay, make sure I do say that this is not fact, just how I'm seeing it . .. but this earth is not the same earth when all things are complete in the Father in the sense that the "natural" realm will no longer be our dominant existence. The earth will still exist, but it will return back to it's original order once the curse is lifted IN THE NATURAL REALM of things.
In the spirit, all things are complete. In the natural, everything is still governed by time. It is bound by the natural laws of order. But in the end, there IS no death because death is the evidence of sin. In the spirit, there is no sin nor is there death. Which is why we are not only called to walk in the spirit, but we're given the abiltiy to do so as well.
In this earth, we're still trying to reason spiritual things with natural minds. We can't imagine what it would be like with death to be obsolete. We can't imagine life without temptation. We can't imagine life without sin in one form or another. We can't imagine every individual in the earth to be one with the Father. Our minds just can't fathom the infinity of God's nature and design. But our spirit can, but we can only see by faith, not by anything connected with natural means.
Whitewings I disagree with you that saints will die during the 1000 years of peace.
Paul says we shall all be changed in a twinkling of an eye. Mortal swallowed up in immortality, etc etc
The way I see it, there will be three classes of people. The saints who are called and chosen the royal priesthood the bride of Christ: and the remnant of people who are still alive after the great tribulation, who the saints will rule over during the 1000 year peace, these people get to live over a hundred, and finally the dead who have not known Christ in this time dispensation of satans dominion, who are resurected at the great white throne judgement and will be judged according to their works and if worthy they will be able to enter heavenly Jerusalem and eat the tree of life.
I am only certain about the saints being made immortal during this dispensation, the rest I said does seem to fit with scripture, but there are other interpretations of how one can look at the great white throne judgement.
I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything. I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ. They go hand in hand.
So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit. It's where God resides. The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth. Just as all Scripture reflects the same principle
Quote from: Tony N on June 16, 2010, 06:32:51 PM
If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?
Hi Tony,
Where do you see that the LOF doesn't exist right up to the end?
As long as life and death exist wouldn't the LOF exist as well?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 16, 2010, 09:01:34 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 16, 2010, 06:32:51 PM
If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?
Hi Tony,
Where do you see that the LOF doesn't exist right up to the end?
As long as life and death exist wouldn't the LOF exist as well?
CHB
Yes, CHB, as long as life and death exist the LoF exists.
Your first question should be rephrased:
"Where do you see that the LOF
exists right up to the end?"
1 Corinthians 15:22-26 shows it existing up to the consummation which I believe is the consummation of the eons.
The only death left to be abolished would have to be the second death according to 1 Corinthians 15:22-26. That abolishment comes after John's Revelation.
In John's revelation Jesus is still reigning as well as those with Him are reigning and there are still kings and sovereignties, authorities and power in John's revelation.
Paul sees the day when all those end and then death is abolished. So death can't be abolished at the end of the 1000 years nor on the new earth prior to the consummation.
Quote from: Nathan on June 16, 2010, 08:07:09 PM
I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything. I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ. They go hand in hand.
So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit. It's where God resides. The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth. Just as all Scripture reflects the same principle
:cloud9: AMEN :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on June 16, 2010, 08:07:09 PM
I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything. I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ. They go hand in hand.
So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit. It's where God resides. The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth. Just as all Scripture reflects the same principle
The book of revelation does have symbolic symbols, but it is not a highly symbolic book that no one can understand it. Some of the things pointed in it do require a great amount of study, but other things are to be read as it is. E.g John of Patmos is not a fictional character, he is real. The letters he wrote are real and they were sent in history, but yet the letters are also for the end time church, which clearly can be seen due to the word great tribulation within the letters. This word 'great tribulation' was used by Jesus to describe the end times. The book of Ezekiel is also a book that described events during the time of babylon and also it is written in mind for the end times and is a complimentary study with the book of revelation.
When it comes to the end times the books to study are the book of Daniel, probably the best to study for a newbie, the book of revelation, the book of Ezekiel (Even harder to understand than revelation, due to God using old testament place names to describe modern day nations). the book of Isiah has some prophecies and also the gospels of Jesus Christ, especially the book of Mathew.
Because of the huge amount of detail in revelation the author described events using symbols, these symbols are coded and found throughout the bible, you've heard the phrase the bible interprets the bible.
So the lamb of God that opens the books is obviously, Jesus Christ.
John the baptist said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
I make an example of the lamb symbol because it is the easiest. The other symbols take more study, but if one takes a look at the dragon is revelation 12, one can see that this is describing Satan.
If one denies that John was not in heaven on the lords day, then one is denying the scriptures and end up making up all kinds of conclusions based on mans ways not Gods. e.g some people think, the dragon is a representative of China, for that is their national symbol, but now they are relying on man made symbols to interpret, Gods symbols. Some might say the dragon represents, The devil cult (I made that up) because this cult has a dragon symbol and when the people meet they, place their fingers on top of their heads like a devil. By relying on methods like these, people are coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas. The book of revelation was supposed to be written to help the saints, not confuse them. God is not the author of confusion, but has written all things for good.
And one more thing the identity of the antichrist and various evil organizations are described in the book of revelation, this makes it of most importance that only spirit filled saints can understand this book, or otherwise perhaps the evil would have banned the book.
You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent but have made known your mysteries unto the meek and lowly.
:cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin' :msealed: Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on June 16, 2010, 09:51:06 PM
:cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin' :msealed: Blessings...
The word "angelos" is translated "messenger" in the Concordant Version and can either be a messenger of heavenly origin or of earthly origin. Humans are often called "messengers" too.
In Matthew 11:10 John the Baptist (not Southern Baptist) is called a messenger.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 16, 2010, 09:51:06 PM
:cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin' :msealed: Blessings...
The word angel can also be another way of saying saint. Since there are angels in existence according to scripture, then this does not make sense for a man to take a letter to the angel as you point out.
Read the gospel and you will find that Jesus is questionned concerning marriage
He replies
They neither marry or given in marriage they are as the Angels of heaven
Tony's reply can also be right too
So my interpretation would be something like this
take the messages to the ANGELS(Leaders/saints) of the 7 churches, no doubt he must have posted the letters to the leader in question
The manna is mixed into a milk drink for the children, boiled for the weak and baked for the strong.
Quote from: thinktank on June 16, 2010, 08:00:22 PM
Whitewings I disagree with you that saints will die during the 1000 years of peace.
You could be right. The sinners is clear. Of the saints it's not said they live a 1000 years; but to be honest neither does it say they die within the 1000 years...
God bless whitewings, keep searching the truth.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2010, 10:18:51 AM
Yes Molly.
Now my thought is that LoF is that fullars soap. Oops "looks like" sorry TonyN :-)
Jesus and the angels are watching for the people/gold to be tested/tormented in LoF.
For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
Also: the robes/gold is aware it's being processed.
IMO those verses tell us a bit about what LoF is like. It's function.
WW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same. For instance, you state "Jesus and the angels are watching for the people in the LoF." I suppose you are saying that in regards to Revelation 14:10. That has to do with the city Babylon being destroyed whereas the lake of fire is unconscious death.
P.S. Rev.14:10 occurs prior to Christ setting up His 1000 year kingdom on the earth (Rev.20:4-7).
Quote from: Tony N on June 17, 2010, 04:53:35 PMWW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.
That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2010, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 17, 2010, 04:53:35 PMWW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.
That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?
I only know of one Babylon in Revelation, a city.
Still, the city is destroyed prior to Christ setting up His millennial kingdom. The lake of fire is not created at that point in time so it can't be about people being tormented in the LoF.[/quote]
Quote from: thinktank on June 16, 2010, 09:46:41 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 16, 2010, 08:07:09 PM
I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything. I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ. They go hand in hand.
So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit. It's where God resides. The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth. Just as all Scripture reflects the same principle
The book of revelation does have symbolic symbols, but it is not a highly symbolic book that no one can understand it. Some of the things pointed in it do require a great amount of study, but other things are to be read as it is. E.g John of Patmos is not a fictional character, he is real. The letters he wrote are real and they were sent in history, but yet the letters are also for the end time church, which clearly can be seen due to the word great tribulation within the letters. This word 'great tribulation' was used by Jesus to describe the end times. The book of Ezekiel is also a book that described events during the time of babylon and also it is written in mind for the end times and is a complimentary study with the book of revelation.
When it comes to the end times the books to study are the book of Daniel, probably the best to study for a newbie, the book of revelation, the book of Ezekiel (Even harder to understand than revelation, due to God using old testament place names to describe modern day nations). the book of Isiah has some prophecies and also the gospels of Jesus Christ, especially the book of Mathew.
Because of the huge amount of detail in revelation the author described events using symbols, these symbols are coded and found throughout the bible, you've heard the phrase the bible interprets the bible.
So the lamb of God that opens the books is obviously, Jesus Christ.
John the baptist said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
I make an example of the lamb symbol because it is the easiest. The other symbols take more study, but if one takes a look at the dragon is revelation 12, one can see that this is describing Satan.
If one denies that John was not in heaven on the lords day, then one is denying the scriptures and end up making up all kinds of conclusions based on mans ways not Gods. e.g some people think, the dragon is a representative of China, for that is their national symbol, but now they are relying on man made symbols to interpret, Gods symbols. Some might say the dragon represents, The devil cult (I made that up) because this cult has a dragon symbol and when the people meet they, place their fingers on top of their heads like a devil. By relying on methods like these, people are coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas. The book of revelation was supposed to be written to help the saints, not confuse them. God is not the author of confusion, but has written all things for good.
And one more thing the identity of the antichrist and various evil organizations are described in the book of revelation, this makes it of most importance that only spirit filled saints can understand this book, or otherwise perhaps the evil would have banned the book.
You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent but have made known your mysteries unto the meek and lowly.
It may be just me here, but it looks like you contradicted yourself in stating that first, Revelation isn't that difficult to understand . . .then you end it with a quote implying that it's a mystery. I understand the verse is stating the mysteries are made known to meek and lowly, but that's not what your comments imply and it's not what you stated. You stated that the mysterious things take a lot of "study". The verse you quoted isn't really emphasizing study, but for me "made known" is the same as saying "revealed".
I also understand Jesus refered to Great Tribulation, Ezekiel and Daniel . . .a lot of prophesies were about these same things happening. But Revelation also points out, in the last chapter, that the book was not to be sealed . . in Daniel, it was to be sealed because it wasn't time for the things to take place . . .but Revelation says just the opposite.
Even though, from the time Daniel wrote it to when John wrote it . . .it was only about 500 years, roughly. Yet when since John wrote what he saw, it's been two thousand. Now, why would Daniel's part be sealed due to it not being time yet, and John's left open for the "time is at hand" . . . if all the things John wrote weren't supposed to happen for another 2000 years?
All things written were literal. I agree . .there was a John, there was an Island called Patmos. And the message brought to John . . .oddly enough, the messenger said nothing to John about documenting these things as they were going to happen in generations to come. It was and still is, a revelation, an unveiling of Jesus. How is it the church has gotten itself all caught up in the doom and gloom of this earth when the messenger clearly stated it is a revelation of Jesus.
Jesus message was all about turning the other cheek, forgive one another, go the extra mile . . and then as people read Revelation, they seem to walk away from everything Jesus preached and return to the Old Covenant mindsets where God is jealous and destructive when he doesn't get his way.
Lastly . . Patmos . . .it literally means "place of my killing". God using a natural island to reveal a spiritual principle of what it takes to enter into the kingdom. It's not about death to men, but death to the man in men.
As to the definition of death . . .Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) the death of the body
a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1) the power of death
c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
So "separation" is very much a part of it's definition. It just depends on how one "choose" to perceive it's application.
Nathan, do you think Paul built up to such a grand point in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 that the last enemy to be abolished is just a figure of speech? In other words, is the Christ going to abolish a figure of speech?
I can't seem to make sense of your last sentence Tony. But nevertheless . . .for me, resurrection is the proof that death as we know it here has been overcome. This is why I've stated before and will now again that things in "this" realm are still governed by time . . .including death. But in the spirit, all things are already completed and finished . . .you cut your passage off at verse 26 . . .yet 27 seems to state that it's already been done as well.
27For he "has put everything under his feet."[
It may be just me here, but it looks like you contradicted yourself in stating that first, Revelation isn't that difficult to understand . . .then you end it with a quote implying that it's a mystery. I understand the verse is stating the mysteries are made known to meek and lowly, but that's not what your comments imply and it's not what you stated. You stated that the mysterious things take a lot of "study". The verse you quoted isn't really emphasizing study, but for me "made known" is the same as saying "revealed".
I also understand Jesus refered to Great Tribulation, Ezekiel and Daniel . . .a lot of prophesies were about these same things happening. But Revelation also points out, in the last chapter, that the book was not to be sealed . . in Daniel, it was to be sealed because it wasn't time for the things to take place . . .but Revelation says just the opposite.
Even though, from the time Daniel wrote it to when John wrote it . . .it was only about 500 years, roughly. Yet when since John wrote what he saw, it's been two thousand. Now, why would Daniel's part be sealed due to it not being time yet, and John's left open for the "time is at hand" . . . if all the things John wrote weren't supposed to happen for another 2000 years?
All things written were literal. I agree . .there was a John, there was an Island called Patmos. And the message brought to John . . .oddly enough, the messenger said nothing to John about documenting these things as they were going to happen in generations to come. It was and still is, a revelation, an unveiling of Jesus. How is it the church has gotten itself all caught up in the doom and gloom of this earth when the messenger clearly stated it is a revelation of Jesus.
Jesus message was all about turning the other cheek, forgive one another, go the extra mile . . and then as people read Revelation, they seem to walk away from everything Jesus preached and return to the Old Covenant mindsets where God is jealous and destructive when he doesn't get his way.
Lastly . . Patmos . . .it literally means "place of my killing". God using a natural island to reveal a spiritual principle of what it takes to enter into the kingdom. It's not about death to men, but death to the man in men.
As to the definition of death . . .Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) the death of the body
a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1) the power of death
c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
So "separation" is very much a part of it's definition. It just depends on how one "choose" to perceive it's application.
[/quote]
O cmon the bible is full of contradictions, you should be used to it :thumbsup:
Such as God never tempts a man
So God tempted Abraham
If one wants to be clever and a critic one can say here is a contradiction, it cannot be inspired. But if one looks deeper and earnestly seeks, one can see that Gods temptation of Abraham did not follow through, and his son was not harmed. But Satans temptation on the other hand his goal is to follow through, with murder for example.
When I say revelation is not that difficult to understand I am arguing against people who say it is impossible to make sense of and therefore irrelevant to study. I also say it is a mystery because it requires the help of Gods spirit to reveal some of the truths and in order to get Gods help sometimes one must study for a long time to receive revelation, because as I said if one only studies revelation, then how would one know what a lamb is, unless one also studies the gospels, where Jesus Christ is called the lamb of God. So studying revelation one needs also to study the rest of the bible.
As for Daniels book being sealed and Revelation, that is a tough question, but I would say that John of Patmos was in the Lord's day therefore he actually witnessed the events taking place, so if what he experienced was in real-time, then in that curent time frame, the books would not be sealed. I could go on but thats all im going to say about that.
As for the doom and gloom, taking place, this is Gods judgment upon man that has been warned about repeateadly in Jesus ministry. The sins of man are becoming more and more toxic and during the time of the great tribulation, the sins have reached an epic scale, similar to that of Sodom and Gomorah, babylon, egypt and Noahs day, these places were all heavilly judged by God and made desolate. It is tough but God tells us to rejoice when mystery babylon is judged for she has been avenged. I think we all sometimes desire vengeance upon the wicked and during this time, we will have what the rightoeus want.
Are we not told, not to take vengeance with our own hand but to commit righteous judgment to him that knows best?
ps
Interesting find about Patmos
For me, revelation doesn't come through study, it comes through relationship with the Son. It's a Peter experience. "Who do "you" say that I am??" Jesus states there flesh and blood didn't reveal to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah. Peter had a revealtion of Jesus and it didn't come through study, it came through relationship.
I'm not sure I follow your answer to "the time is at hand" being a spiritual principle so that it could still mean it would happen thousands of years later.
I believe ALL of this in the revelation of Jesus is pertaining to what was stated in Hebrews pertaining to a new priest hood being established. But in order for the lineage of Melchezedek to manifest as a new order, the old system had to be removed. Israel was not willing to give it up. Instead, they crucified Christ and embraced their religion. They set themselves up . . .destruction was coming to the religious system. "That" is the end of the age Scripture constantly referred to.
The things Matthew 24 speaks of, which is directly connected to Revelation and Daniel, are things that were coming as a result of Israel embracing an old system that was no longer in place. So yeah, judgment came as God cleansed the land. But to say certain things did come yet other things are yet to happen two thousand years later . .for me . .is saying more than what Scripture is saying.
The things coming "at hand" meant they had already started at the time of the writing. The book was to be left open because the things declared in it were already happening.
I'm not sure I can agree with the double judgment thing either. My mind does not have the capacity to see things from an elevated state. But the things written came from above. So how can I learn spiritual principles when my mind only operates through natural means? For me the answer is, walk in the "spirit" of what's being said.
The contradictions are not from Scripture cntradicting itself, they are from my mind's percecption of what one passage is saying over another. This is why, I do read, I ponder, but I cringe at "study" because for me, it implies to rely on my mind's abilities to learn facts and more information "about" something rather than my being "experiencing" truth that lies beneath what's being said.
I've said this one before as well, but the Pharisees were reknown for their disciplinary rituals in studying the word . . and look how that turned out for them.
For me, God's judgment is not punishment. My workds being judged are not "you did this well and that, not so much . . ." But for me, everything comes through the cross. On the one hand, we quote Paul "it's not I but Christ in me . . .the actions where I fail at something isnt' me, but the sin in me . . ." And on the other hand we claim God is going to judge us for "our" works?
How can God work in me both to will AND TO DO his good pleasure, and yet turn around and judge me for the works . . .that HE is doing??
Quote from: Nathan on June 17, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
For me, revelation doesn't come through study, it comes through relationship with the Son. It's a Peter experience. "Who do "you" say that I am??" Jesus states there flesh and blood didn't reveal to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah. Peter had a revealtion of Jesus and it didn't come through study, it came through relationship.
I've said this one before as well, but the Pharisees were reknown for their disciplinary rituals in studying the word . . and look how that turned out for them.
The letter killeth but the lord giveth life
Paul
My word is meat indeed
That you may grow with the milk of the word
Jesus says to Pharisse
You search the scriptures and think that in them you have life, but you refuse to come to me
Peter says something like
That you may be born again through the incorruptuple word of God
Also not all Pharisses were blind to Christ, some of them gave old testament revelation concerning Christ
I think the message is, study the word for food and the holy spirit, stimulates that word and makes it grow. Without the holy spirit the word becomes deadened. Christ talks about the word being a seed that is planted, some went by the wayside, some was stolen by Satan and some were cast into stony rock unable to grow.
Quote from: Nathan on June 17, 2010, 08:21:28 PM
I can't seem to make sense of your last sentence Tony.
OOPS, here it is corrected:
"In other words, is the Christ going to abolish a figure of speech?"
QuoteNathan wrote:But nevertheless . . .for me, resurrection is the proof that death as we know it here has been overcome. This is why I've stated before and will now again that things in "this" realm are still governed by time . . .including death. But in the spirit, all things are already completed and finished . . .you cut your passage off at verse 26 . . .yet 27 seems to state that it's already been done as well.
That "for He subjects all" is just in the aorist mood and shows a timeless fact such as "God loves the world" in John 3:16.
We know He has not subjected all yet becaause we see not all are subject.
Quote27For he "has put everything under his feet."
1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."
Two birds with one stone . . .maybe . ..
TT, the passages you quoted are exactly my point. The Pharisees were the most literal religious group there ever was. They wouldn't move an inch without the Scriptures telling them to. Ears that can't hear . . .eyes that can't see . .see and hear what? We read the Scriptures with our natural minds and apply the principles with our natural reasoning, yet we only result in making religious noise.
It's kind of what Tony and I are speaking about here as well. I'm saying in the spirit all things are complete even though in the natural everything goes through due process. He's saying because it says . .according to the letter of the Scriptures . . . death has not yet been over come. I'm saying "if" death wasn't overcome, how could there then be a resurrection?
Spiritually, it's all done. It's finished. there is nothing left that needs to be done. But in this realm, I agree, current state is incomplete.
But my question is, are we to walk in current state, or in finished works? Can we not see the end from the beginning when stepping into the spirit in our own lives? For me, to walk in the current state is to walk according to the flesh. To walk in finished state is to walk in the spirit.
Am I saved? Or am I being saved? Answer? Yes. My spirit has been resurrected from beneath the control of my flesh. Yet my soul continues to experience the process of trials and tribulation in this life, bringing it into the fulness of the redemptive work of the cross.
The revelation of Jesus is not an outward timeline of judgment of man and earth. It's an inward revelation of the illuminating glory of God that resides in us all. There is a bottomless pit in us all, there is a Great Babylon in us all . . there is Great Tribulation in us all, but the carnality in us has been overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
For me, reading Scripture inwardly has so much more liberation to it than laboring against another in the attempt to either discredit the claims the mind of another makes or to try to justify to another's mind what has spiritually been discerned. Revelation was used as a hymn book in the first century . . .yet look at what our generation has turned it into.
Somewhere between when it was written and now as it's being read, someone shifted the emphasis of life in a whole other direction. I believe God is bringing it all back around, for the purpose to do what he's always done, to bring glory to his Son as His Son brings glory back to Him.
Tony, to your question about abolishing figure of speeches . . I would have to say no. Not in this realm.
:cloud9: As a side note, I personally think the angel that spoke these things to John, WAS Daniel. It was time for that which Daniel sealed, to be opened. My :2c: Blessings....
That could be interesting cardinal, I'll have a chew of that.
I'm not so sure . ..I think what was sealed only Christ could open and he did that when he said this . . .
Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
I believe this was where that which was once sealed was now reopenned.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 17, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
:cloud9: As a side note, I personally think the angel that spoke these things to John, WAS Daniel. It was time for that which Daniel sealed, to be opened. My :2c: Blessings....
wow
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 18, 2010, 05:23:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.--Mat 8:11
I'm still not convinced of the possibility there. Granted, I'm not one who hangs on to literal implications so when it describes "angel" bringing the message, I'm not one who envisions a being with wings and harps floating around but rather it's an avenue through which spiritual messages flow. There are strong angels, mighty angels, named angels and unnamed angels, but at the same time, there's no indication where dead people become messengers to other men in this form as we see in Revelation. And there's really no indication by what's written that Daniel is the one delivering the message to John.
Even when Peter, James and John saw Jesus transform into his glorified state, they "saw" Moses and Elijah . . .but how would they know it was Moses or Elijah? Did they have a polaroid in their pocket? No, I beleive of course that it was spiritually revealed to them who they were. Not because they became angels, but because of what they symbolized.
Jesus was fulfilling the law and the prophets and I think God brought that home when he jumped in and thundered his declaration that Jesus was his beloved and we should hear him "only". The law and the prophets were only fore-runners pronouncing the coming of the Christ. But once Jesus was there, the law and the prophets were no longer necessary.
Which for me, is why the law was temporary. It was only the pronouncment of the coming of Christ. Once Christ came, the law was then fulfilled and no longer necessary to be in effect. But that's a whole other issue from Daniel being the one to deliver the message to John. If it were Daniel, would not John have had the same revelation that he had when he saw Moses and Elijah? Yet there's no indication of this.
But most importanly is the one worthy to break open the seals . . .what Daniel "saw" in his vision, was the manifestation of the effect the opening of the seals had on Israel. But he himself was not the one found worthy to do the opening. That role is solely up to the Lamb who had been slain.
This isn't a huge deal really, I'm just saying I'm not seeing what you're implying.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--Rev 22
Quote from: Cardinal on June 18, 2010, 05:23:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.
The Bible says The dead know nothing.
And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 18, 2010, 05:23:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.
The Bible says The dead know nothing.
And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.
Not to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either. I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really.
Samuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul? It's not fitting for me at all. And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.
There's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported. I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us. It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh. And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Heb 12
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 03:49:34 PM
I'm still not convinced of the possibility there. Granted, I'm not one who hangs on to literal implications so when it describes "angel" bringing the message, I'm not one who envisions a being with wings and harps floating around but rather it's an avenue through which spiritual messages flow. There are strong angels, mighty angels, named angels and unnamed angels, but at the same time, there's no indication where dead people become messengers to other men in this form as we see in Revelation. And there's really no indication by what's written that Daniel is the one delivering the message to John.
Even when Peter, James and John saw Jesus transform into his glorified state, they "saw" Moses and Elijah . . .but how would they know it was Moses or Elijah? Did they have a polaroid in their pocket? No, I beleive of course that it was spiritually revealed to them who they were. Not because they became angels, but because of what they symbolized.
Perhaps it was revealed to them spiritually the same way in which Jesus was revelaled to the disciples, when he said 'follow me and Ill make you become fishers of men'
or the alternative is that Jesus told them beforehand, (not every conversation was recorded in the gospel)
The fact that it is Moses and Elijah, is significant because
1. Elijah did not see death
2. The sepulcher of Moses is not found till this day
I personally think it is a possibility that Jesus raised Moses from the dead almost like practice before attempting to raise Lazarus and the little girl and probably hundreds of other cases not recorded in the bible.
Some people say it is a vision, but the mount of transfiguration is very similar to the experience that Paul had, go ahead, compare the two and see what I'm saying.
Also the angel that spoke to John may not be Daniel, but it is very likely a resurected saint. John of Patmos was in the spirit on the Lord's day. The lords day is noted throughout the bible and it is a specific event where God's judgments will fall upon mankind, so John was transported to the future, where the saints are already in heaven :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2010, 10:23:52 AM
QuoteFor me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers? Because that happens in the blink of an eye.
The only Bible phrase offered to support the idea of a simultaneous corporate transition is "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," which certainly says nothing about "everybody all at once." Even if "in a moment" was legitimate, it may be understood to be for each individual "one at a time," while it may take a generation (40 years) for it to happen to all those for whom it will happen. Consider, "...who shall declare his generation?" (AV) "...of his generation who doth meditate..." (YLT) "And on His personal fate, who is meditating?" (CLV -- loc.cit., Is 53:8) However, there's no reason we should see anything about a measurement of time in the word for "in a moment" here. Actually it is "in
atomos" which meant in classical Greek what we mean when we refer to elements in chemistry, as in the periodic table of of "elements." Anotherwords, in the very elements of your physical body, it's atomic structures, there will be a change from the presence of God "possessing" (Greek:
harpazo) you at the most fundamental level, even the material of your body. Just as the Holy Spirit in your body with you in union with your spirit, possessing your spirit quickens it into newness of life, so He will in union with you physically sieze your body and cause it to be raised into immortality.
The word may also refer to continuation, just the next step in your walk with God, and not something that can be divided off into a separate event. In Greek "
atomos" is a negative of "cutting" or "dividing;" It means something "that cannot be cut in two, or divided, indivisible," ie., "un-cut." This is the only place in the N.T. that this word occurs though a positive form, "
tomoteros" occurs in Hebrews 4:12 referring to the word of God being "sharper" meaning "'cutting keener' than any two-mouthed sword," "...and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit..." This change is a peaceable transition from a dying body of humiliation to a deathless body of glory, liberated from the Adamic form.
"In the twinkling of an eye" means to cast your view to something else. It is not an indication of a length of time. We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him. The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory. You tend to believe what you see. "The Glory" is His manifest presence. If understood as IN the "blink" of an eye, you'll be seeing the world with a natural eye, then blink your eye and be perceiving God Whose presence descends into our naural seeing, completing it, and raises us up into deathless eyes seeing God as He is in the cosmic dimension. In that it is "eye" singular suggests "the eye of understanding." As we look upon Him, apprehending His presence in our heart, He shall intensify this as we approach the fulfillment of the beautific vision.
It is "IN
atomos [IN the very elements of physical reality, IN peaceful transition, without disruption], IN looking [upon Him and by Him into another higher realm] and IN the last trumpet." IN, IN, IN...
IN the
last trumpet is something to be searched out in Scripture, "The Feast of Trumpets," of which there are seven silver trumpets. These are a prepared vessel of "redemption," that is, "liberation." As in the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish Virgins, 3 classes of persons are described, the 10 virgin witnesses, the bridegroom and the one "crying" and raising a "clamor," the trumpets are those making the noise that rouses the sleeping body of believers, sounding the alarm that awakens. "Now in the middle of the night a clamor occurs: 'Lo! the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!" There are some who are awake and beholding their Lord. The messengers will blow forth that breath of God, resenating in set shapes, those forms the Maker prepared through the purifying fire, sounding certains sounds that cause irreversible changes among the children of men. This is what His coming to be present is IN.
:cloud9: :goodpost: :2thumbs:
Quote from: Tony N on June 17, 2010, 06:38:34 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2010, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 17, 2010, 04:53:35 PMWW, I think you are confusing two different places as if they are one and the same.
That's possible. But it's also possible I'm not confusing them. Even if things are not the the same it doesn't mean they can't be about the same. There are several Babylons in the Bible. Pure luck? Hidden meaning? For me being able a to prove a certain verse/chapter is about a literal historical event doesn't always prove that same event is also about a spiritual/future event.
What if all the Babylon verses are a huge parable?
I only know of one Babylon in Revelation, a city.
Still, the city is destroyed prior to Christ setting up His millennial kingdom. The lake of fire is not created at that point in time so it can't be about people being tormented in the LoF.
Babylon, the "literal" city will never be rebuilt. It is under about 2 feet of water and, though it would seem one of the foremost places possible for archeological excavations, no one even goes there except certain areas where fishermen dry their nets. This is what the prophets of God have prophesied.
And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD. (Ez 26
14, AV)
Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell [there], and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation. [40] As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (Jr 50
39-40 AV)
reFORMer, that's interesting.
Go here for pictures of Babylon today:
http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4GGLJ_en&q=babylon+today&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=_6obTI3YOMSclge1gpX2CQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQsAQwAw
The walls of the city of Babylon were being rebuilt by Saddam Hussein before we took over Iraq.
"for ever" in the verses you quote must not be "eternal" but for an obscure time or for the olam/eon.
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 05:48:52 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 18, 2010, 05:23:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.
The Bible says The dead know nothing.
And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.
QuoteNot to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either. I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really.
Oh, come on, I love to argue! :laughing7:
Death has never changed from the OT to the NT. There is no devising or knowledge in the grave where you are going. The Bible says so. We still have to wait for the resurrection of our bodies. Nothing has changed.
QuoteSamuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul? It's not fitting for me at all. And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.
Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.
QuoteThere's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported. I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us. It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh. And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.
No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.
Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind
Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated. Not at all. There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit. Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no. It's not going to fly at all.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?
If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation? Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."
No familiar spirit. The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up. Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 05:48:52 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 18, 2010, 05:23:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, Nathan you could consider it, Daniel-as-one-with Christ, because the angel said he was one of his fellow servants, the PROPHETS. And doesn't that open up some interesting discussion about interaction between "ages" in that cloud of witnesses? Blessings.....
Dear Cardinal, Daniel has been dead for thousands of years now. He is not alive in some other form.
The "cloud of witnesses" you speak of are the witnesses to the faith who died earlier. They were not alive in some other form when the writer of Hebrews wrote that.
The Bible says The dead know nothing.
And this is just one more reason those in the second death cannot learn or be purified because they are in death, unconscious death. They know nothing while in that death.
QuoteNot to purposely argue, but Tony, I'm not seeing death in that light either. I understand you're basing your doctrine on an Old Testament passage and perhaps that may have been it's intention even then, but I'm not so sure of that either really.
Oh, come on, I love to argue! :laughing7:
Death has never changed from the OT to the NT. There is no devising or knowledge in the grave where you are going. The Bible says so. We still have to wait for the resurrection of our bodies. Nothing has changed.
QuoteSamuel was brought back to life in spirit to Saul through a soothsayer . . .if there is no knowledge in death, then how is it that Samuel could prophecy the demise of Saul? It's not fitting for me at all. And Paul states that he's either here in body, or when this body gives out, he'll be with Christ in spirit . .there's no indication there either of a life in dormancy . . .nor does that really follow the principles of the nature of God.
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.
Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.
QuoteThere's no pattern established for that line of thought to be supported. I'm not sure I understand your rendition of that cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 speaks of . . .but for me, it is indeed the saints who've gone on before us. It's their spirits that once inhabited bodies of flesh. And if they are surrounding us, encouraging us to press on . .that doesn't sound like a state of nothingness to me either.
No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.
:omg:
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind.
Paul was alluding to the resurrection because that is the only time we will meet the Lord as a complet group where the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves first then we who are living to the presence of the Lord will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air.
Tony
Hey I found something we agree on Tony, even both, also I also believe the Jewish old testmant saints will remain on the Earth to build Gods kingdom.
I think Paul says that we have obtained a better resurection than them.
Nathan I read somewhere on this forum, someone who gave evidence as to why Samuel was in contact with a familiar spirit, and not Saul.
Love to hear the explanation of that one due to the fact that Scripture doesn't even hint that it was a familiar spirit. It refers to the spirit as Samuel . . .so are we denying the Word to keep our theology intact here?
I don't mean to come off aggressive, I guess I'm kinda surprised that I'm the one pointing to Scripture for what's been written toward something that appears to be someone's imagination. Usually, the accusation is reversed. :grin:
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 09:47:13 PM
Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind
Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated. Not at all. There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit. Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no. It's not going to fly at all.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?
If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation? Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."
No familiar spirit. The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up. Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'
First of all, when a person dies the bible says that their spirit returns to God Who gave it. God is not in the ground. The witch only saw a vision. Samuel's real spirit could not have come up from the ground as the witch said. As I said before, it was just a familiar spirit. Just like when Christ was transfigured before the three disciples and the disciples saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ. But it was just a vision and Christ told them to tell no one of the vision.
I'm also quite sure Saul did not hear that familiar spirit but used the medium to relay the information.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4791.0
A thread on soul sleep. And the witch.
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 11:07:37 PM..... I guess I'm kinda surprised that I'm the one pointing to Scripture for what's been written toward something that appears to be someone's imagination. Usually, the accusation is reversed. :grin:
:cloud9: I heard that, LOL..... :goodone:
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 08:43:59 PM
No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.
This bizarre racism is one thing about dipSinsationalism I cannot understand how anybody can consider and search out with the result of continuing to hold to it. I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like. I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces. I'm truly amazed that such a crucial error could become so foundational to dipSinsationalism. Of many things they say it's not for the Chruch, but, "That is to the Jew," meaning, one who is racially descended from Abraham. Upon examination, these things they give to Jews are also given to the Church. It is on the basis of being of Christ to Whom the promises were given. How such racism could continue to be believed and taught by so many who consider themselves the arbiters of orthodoxy leaves me breathless with my mouth hanging open. I can hardly believe it!!! I've dealt with even relatively new believers who'll fight tooth and nail, holding on to their wall between Jew and Gentile, determined to prove God is a racist regardless of the plain teaching of Scripture. "It is not the children according to the flesh that inherit the promise." Somehow they refuse to bow their stiff necks to the truth recorded in God's Holy Word.
"I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like. I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces."
I do that, too, reFORMer.
It helps to discern the spirit behind the countenance.
It is not racism, it simply that the old testment prophets were before the cross and blood, but now after the cross the church Jew and gentile have access to the promises of the seed of Abraham, that seed being Christ and one promise being the resurection of the dead.
Please tell me a scripture where the old testament prophets can be forgiven for their sins. Their sacrifical animal ceromonies could not wash away the law of death, according to Paul.
The old testmant prophets died without Christ, but we die with Christ
There are only rare exceptions e.g Enoch, Elijah, that for some reason God took them.
Ahh I can understand now why you call it racism, Tony said the Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints, maybe that's what he means, but if not I don't agree with him, I think the Jewish can accept Christ and be a partaker of the resurection, just as much if not more than the gentile, but I still think, as scripture teaches that the old testament saints(before Christ), do not get the same promises.
Hi All,
Haven't been able to post much but have tried to keep up with what has been written.
I wanted to give my idea as to the Saul and Samuel episode and see what everyone's thoughts were on it.
KJV
In 1Sam. 16:14 the spirit of God departs from Saul and an evil spirit troubles Saul.
1Sam. 28:13-16 the woman tells Saul she sees "gods ascending out of the earth". Saul never sees Samuel. The woman tells Saul she sees an old man coming up and he is covered with a mantel. Then Saul PRECEIVED that it was Samuel. (Verse 15) Samuel ask Saul "why have you disquited me"?
(Verse 19) Samuel tells Saul "tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me".
It seems to say here that Samuel knows he is dead and buried and that is where Saul and his sons will be also.
Now if the dead know not anything, and there is no remembrence in the grave, there has to be another explaination.
Here is an idea I had, don't know if it has any merit or not.
When Peter was in prison and the angel brought him out and came to the place where the other desciples were, they thought it was peter's angel (Acts 12:15). Do we all have angels that look like us? Makes me wonder? (Heb. 1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.
Everything in heaven is a pattern of things on earth (Heb. 8:5). (Heb. 9:23). (Ex. 25:40)
What if this was Samuel's angel just like the angel of the Lord that spoke for the Lord? The woman never said it was Samuel.
CHB
Quote from: reFORMer on June 19, 2010, 01:39:20 AM
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 08:43:59 PM
No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.
This bizarre racism is one thing about dipSinsationalism I cannot understand how anybody can consider and search out with the result of continuing to hold to it. I look in the faces of the men who teach it when they appear on T.V., sometimes turning down the volume, just to see what a false teacher looks like. I try to see if there is some visible sign of their ignorance or deception on their faces. I'm truly amazed that such a crucial error could become so foundational to dipSinsationalism. Of many things they say it's not for the Chruch, but, "That is to the Jew," meaning, one who is racially descended from Abraham. Upon examination, these things they give to Jews are also given to the Church. It is on the basis of being of Christ to Whom the promises were given. How such racism could continue to be believed and taught by so many who consider themselves the arbiters of orthodoxy leaves me breathless with my mouth hanging open. I can hardly believe it!!! I've dealt with even relatively new believers who'll fight tooth and nail, holding on to their wall between Jew and Gentile, determined to prove God is a racist regardless of the plain teaching of Scripture. "It is not the children according to the flesh that inherit the promise." Somehow they refuse to bow their stiff necks to the truth recorded in God's Holy Word.
Oh brother, now we are off the subject of the lake of fire and into dispensational teaching! Can't we keep on topic?
The body of Christ is composed of Jews and Gentiles; Jews who have come under Paul's administration of grace.
Peter, James and John and all who belong under their administration remain on the earth. It has nothing to do with racism. Or are you just trying to get this topic shut down?
Read Galatians 2 concerning the agreement between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision.
No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?
Quote from: thinktank on June 19, 2010, 01:55:58 AMthe Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints,
Saints are saved. Jesus is the only way to get saved. So doesn't that mean Jews can't be saints. When those Jews turn to Jesus they are no longer Jews but Christians.
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2010, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 19, 2010, 01:55:58 AMthe Jewish saints stay here on Earth, I thought he meant the old testament saints,
Saints are saved. Jesus is the only way to get saved. So doesn't that mean Jews can't be saints. When those Jews turn to Jesus they are no longer Jews but Christians.
:dontknow:
Dear WW, the body of Christ under the current administration is composed of Jews and Gentiles in which the central barrier has been torn down in that body. There is now no Jew nor Greek
in Christ. Note the "in Christ."
Peter, James and John and the other Circumcision apostles are not going to heaven. They remain on the earth. They will be judging the twelve tribes:
Mat 19:28 Yet Jesus said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow Me, in the renascence whenever the Son of Mankind should be seated on the throne of His glory,
you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (see also Luke 22:30)
We who are in the body of Christ will, at the time they are judging the 12 tribes, be among the celestials.
No one of the Old Testament or New Testament is in heaven except Jesus.
Can we get back to the lake of fire?
The second death is not abolished at all for mankind in John's revelation. That knowledge is left for Paul to reveal as to when the second death is abolished and is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
Once that death is abolished then will God be All in all of Adam's offspring.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
The air is ruled over by satan. The air is a spirit which has power that works in the children of disobedience.
"power"
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
So there really is a power that can be received from satan, the mystery of iniquity, which is granted to initiates by a spirit. This is why it is a spiritual warfare.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1
But Christ also gives us power--to become sons of God.
When we are seized by him and meet him in the air, the victory is complete--the mind of Christ, the body of Christ.
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
--1 Thess 4:17
Caught up in the clouds [witnesses, saints], to meet the Lord in the air [Spirit], to be with the Lord forever. This is the 'rapture'--being given the power to be sons of God with the mind of Christ forever. It is not about location, it is about status.
What is the lake of fire and where would it be located?
I agree with WhiteWings that there was something that John related the lof to in his time. Those who existed at that time probably would have no trouble identifying what, where, and what the lof was all about. Just like Jesus used the dump of Jerusalem to describe gehenna.
John was in the Isle that is called Patmos. He was told to write what he saw in a book and SEND IT TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA. If the lof is not God then is it possible that it is A location such as sea of Galilee or the Dead Sea.
I thought about the river of Jordan because it was a place of baptism which could represent fire but it is not a lake but a river.
Here is what I found about Jordan and the lakes it runs into.
Jordan the one river of Palestine, has a course of 200'miles, from the roots of Anti-Lebanon to the head of the dead sea. It is called "the river of God". {I found this interesting} It was the eastern boundry of the promised land. The Jordan rises from serval sources near Panium and passes through THE LAKES OF MEROM and GENNESARET. The two principal features are its decent and its windings. From its fountain heads to the Dead Sea it rushes down, only broken by a series of precipitous falls. BETWEEN THE LAKE OF GENNESARET AND THE DEAD SEA there are twenty seven rapids; the depression of the lake of Gennesaret below the level of the Mediterranean is 653 feet, and that of the Dead Sea 1316 feet.
The lake that is called Gennesaret is called the Sea of Galilee in the NT. Most of our Lord's life was spent in the environs of the sea of Gennesaret. It is of oval shape and thirteen miles long, and six broad.
Taken from my KJ Bible Dictionary.
I thought all of this was interesting and wondered if John could have thought of this lake when referring to the lof?
CHB
wow chb, very interesting.
John 6:18-20 (New International Version)
18A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19When they had rowed three or three and a half miles, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid."
Quote from: CHB on June 19, 2010, 06:58:29 PMI agree with WhiteWings that there was something that John related the lof to in his time. Those who existed at that time probably would have no trouble identifying what, where, and what the lof was all about. Just like Jesus used the dump of Jerusalem to describe gehenna.
.....
The lake that is called Gennesaret is called the Sea of Galilee in the NT. Most of our Lord's life was spent in the environs of the sea of Gennesaret. It is of oval shape and thirteen miles long, and six broad.
....
I thought all of this was interesting and wondered if John could have thought of this lake when referring to the lof?
Then it would be like a parable. What is the deeper meaning of the parable?
I believe in soul sleep, but I am open to the possibility that unbelivers who die in their sins go to a place called hell or the bottomless pit awaiting judgment, I think this is what Gary from tentmaker belives, this makes sense from a certain viewpoint, but it would have to mean that the lake of fire would be a spiritual fire, because the dead would be brought out of hell and then lifted up to the great white throne to be judged, no flesh can live to see God, so they cannot be flesh and blood human beings, raised from the dead from hell. Satan and his angels are cast into the lake of fire also and these beings are spiritual, so how can a fallen angel, where angels are described as ministering spirits, be thrown into a physical fire upon the Earth?
I do have a possible answer to my question, if I go with soul sleep, but I want to know what you think?
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 08:43:59 PM
No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.
So, though I'm born again, if I am at least 51% descended racially from Abraham that means I will be left behind when your tradition's rapture occurs?
Quote from: Tony N on June 19, 2010, 04:21:31 AM
No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?
"And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven." (Jn 3
1-3, CLT)
"And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be." (Jn 14
3, CLT)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among (lit.,
entos 'in' pl.) the celestials (or, 'heavenlies,") in Christ" (Eph 1
3, CLT)
"...yet God, being rich in mercy, because of His vast love with which He loves us (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!) and rouses us together and seats us together among (lit.,
entos 'in' pl.) the celestials (or, 'heavenlies,') in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2
4-6, CLT)
(These passages reveal the Concordant Literal's translators bias by putting "among' rather than "in" and using their three little lines sign with it indicating the plural. Also, the word "celestials" for the plural "heaven" which could've been "heavenlies" or "heaven" with their three line symbol meaning it is plural for consistency. To say we are seated, "Together among the celestials" sounds like these "celestial" could be angels among whom we are participating rather than other dimensions in which we have become alive. It strongly favors later gnostic beliefs.)
Quote from: Tony N on June 19, 2010, 04:21:31 AM
No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?
"I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord. I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven." (2 Co 12
1-2,CLT)
"...and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused, and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many." (Mt 27
52-53, CLT)
When I am born from above, my spirit in union with the Spirit of God inhabits my body together with me. We are spiritually married, making us part of the bride of Christ. Individually, as a "new Man," we are no longer mere Adamic men; but are members of the body of the new man, Christ the Lord out from the heavens. "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone." (Ep 5:30, AV) "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:17, AV) "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ." (1 Co 12:12, CLT) These Scripture portions say we are one Spirit and one body with the Lord.
The following makes it clear we are located in the heavenlies (the celestials.) Though many with some faith in Jesus are very lacking in experience of this Divine life we are partakers of it does not mean it is not a reality:
Ephesians 2:4-7 (AV)...
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
When we are born as humans (in Adam) we have an Adamic nature with its limitations. We see out of the front of our head in only a narrow portion of the light (electromagnetic) spectrum. And so it is with the limitations of the rest of our senses. Born of the Spirit of God as parts of Messiah we have His nature. We are born again with eyes to see God and to see by the means of God. Yet, until "the redemption of the purchased possession," our body salvation, born physically of God in resurrection, we have a foretaste. Then we shall "see Him as He is."
The "spiritual," or, "extended senses" come with being born of God spiritually when our souls are aligned with Him. Many have little experience of these things. They are never the less very real. Visions, prophecy, supernatural powers, word of wisdom or knowledge: These are sample of the Divine nature we may partake of now. This is all of a life lived IN THE HEAVENLIES!
Quote from: reFORMer on June 19, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
When I am born from above, my spirit in union with the Spirit of God inhabits my body together with me. We are spiritually married, making us part of the bride of Christ. Individually, as a "new Man," we are no longer mere Adamic men; but are members of the body of the new man, Christ the Lord out from the heavens. "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone." (Ep 5:30, AV) "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:17, AV) "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ." (1 Co 12:12, CLT) These Scripture portions say we are one Spirit and one body with the Lord.
The following makes it clear we are located in the heavenlies (the celestials.) Though many with some faith in Jesus are very lacking in experience of this Divine life we are partakers of it does not mean it is not a reality:
Ephesians 2:4-7 (AV)...
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
When we are born as humans (in Adam) we have an Adamic nature with its limitations. We see out of the front of our head in only a narrow portion of the light (electromagnetic) spectrum. And so it is with the limitations of the rest of our senses. Born of the Spirit of God as parts of Messiah we have His nature. We are born again with eyes to see God and to see by the means of God. Yet, until "the redemption of the purchased possession," our body salvation, born physically of God in resurrection, we have a foretaste. Then we shall "see Him as He is."
The "spiritual," or, "extended senses" come with being born of God spiritually when our souls are aligned with Him. Many have little experience of these things. They are never the less very real. Visions, prophecy, supernatural powers, word of wisdom or knowledge: These are sample of the Divine nature we may partake of now. This is all of a life lived IN THE HEAVENLIES!
Wow, you've changed your tune the holy spirit is truly at work within you, it is amazing how fast, keep being led by the spirit and he'll lead you into all truth
Blessed are you Reformer, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my father who art in heaven
The real Samuel was not called up by the witch of Endor. Samuel was a man of God of rare qualifications. He could not have been controlled by the witch to defy the precepts of the living God Who forbids necromancy.
:cloud9: I always thought GOD allowed him to have what He wanted ie. the real Samuel (like the Israelites were fed quail), then used it to judge his flesh with. Blessings...
What baffles me about that story, is that if that spirit wasn't samuel, which must be the case, then who?
Would a demon repeat what God said?
Maybe God used the demon to confirm to Samuel what he already knew.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 19, 2010, 10:44:27 PM
The real Samuel was not called up by the witch of Endor. Samuel was a man of God of rare qualifications. He could not have been controlled by the witch to defy the precepts of the living God Who forbids necromancy.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on June 20, 2010, 12:03:00 AM
What baffles me about that story, is that if that spirit wasn't samuel, which must be the case, then who?
Would a demon repeat what God said?
Maybe God used the demon to confirm to Samuel what he already knew.
i had wondered that myself, but in ISam 13 all was taken from Saul, he was told it was over; so nothing that was conjured up by the witch was nothing more that the fate that had already been dealt Saul. Saul's imagination, in his heart, was only being backed up with what he(Saul) already knew. Saul was seeking a different answer, one that would restore him. :2c:
This might shed some light on this subject. This article talks about how everything on earth has a counterpart in heaven. He makes very good sense of this.
"Geography of Heaven" http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d990501.htm
Even humans on earth have their counterparts in the form of angels in heaven. Jesus spoke of children having "their angels" (Matthew 18:10). Early Christians thought Peter had his own angel with the same appearance as Peter (Acts 12:15). The angel of the Prophet Samuel even went by the name "Samuel" (1 Samuel 28:11–15). What we will one day discover is that the earth is a pattern of heaven in a microcosm sense. The regions in heaven are more vast in extent, but the inhabitants are the same size as humans on earth. At the present there is as much diversity in heaven as on earth. There have been as many wars in heaven as we have had on earth. Soon, heaven will become pure as the Father and Christ are pure. All this will be given in my forthcoming book on "Angels." [Note: Dr. Martin did not complete his book on angels before his death in January 2002. DWS]
CHB
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2010, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2010, 09:47:13 PM
Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind
Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated. Not at all. There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit. Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no. It's not going to fly at all.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?
If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation? Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."
No familiar spirit. The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up. Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'
First of all, when a person dies the bible says that their spirit returns to God Who gave it. God is not in the ground. The witch only saw a vision. Samuel's real spirit could not have come up from the ground as the witch said. As I said before, it was just a familiar spirit. Just like when Christ was transfigured before the three disciples and the disciples saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ. But it was just a vision and Christ told them to tell no one of the vision.
I'm also quite sure Saul did not hear that familiar spirit but used the medium to relay the information.
I think part of my problem in your doctrine Paul is that you seem to jump back and forth from what's literal which is the fact you point out the spirit came up from the ground rather than down from heaven . . .which may or may not have significance . . . to adding things in that Scripture never said . . .so that you're belief can remain intact. Because you changed to assume that Saul spoke to the spirit through the witch, even though Scripture isn't saying that specifically.
You're kind of flip flopping on your reasoning while trying at the same time to make it sound absolute. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how they can come to a conclusion that it wasn't Samuel when Scripture literally states that it was.
When I go off on you dimensionally, I purposefully don't use Scripture as my platform or source for what I see. I know that sounds like I'm discrediting the Scriptures again but I'm really not. I believe strongly that the Word of God is IN me. So when the Spirit REVEALS the Word from within . . .then I find the Scriptures are in alignment or agreement.
But I don't base what I see on what I read, I base it on what I see from within first. From the sound of his voice that speaks out images in my spirit. At which point, the spirit will often times also lead me into passages that are indeed saying the same thing, but it's lying beneath the literal words being written.
I see Scripture on different dimensions. But when you've already made it clear in previous conversations that one should rely more on what Scripture says first . . .I'm confused as to how you can then turn and say "We're to assume" . . .like in this instance . . Saul isn't really talking directly to Samuel . . .he's not talking directly to this assumed familar spirit . . but he's talking to the witch, who's talking to the familiar spirit, who then responds not to Saul but to the witch, who then relays the message back to Samuel . . .prophesying of Saul's demise . . .which even more strangely, comes to pass to the letter of what was prophesied.
So . .now either God did allow Samuel to speak DIRECTLY to Saul who then . . .because he is VERY connected to the goings on in the natural because he's still very much ALIVE in the spirit was able to prophesy Sauls demise . ..OR .. . demons can prophesy God's plan to people who go to witches. Which one would you prefer to build your faith on?
Interesting stuff on that website cb. I enjoy things like that.
Could make sense that there have been wars in heaven.
Dragon and his angels fought in heaven but michael the great prince prevailed and cast him down.
Also I've noticed that christ does not say theres a new earth but says there will be a new heaven and earth.
I've allways wondered why the need for a new heaven, does God want it redecorated.
Because satan and his angels have been thrown out. Maybe God is speaking about the Earthly heaven because Satan goes to and fro and is the prince and power of the air.
You're very possibly going to even lose your life if you come under the doctrine of devils. Is that the will of God?
I think part of my problem in your doctrine Paul is that you seem to jump back and forth from what's literal which is the fact you point out the spirit came up from the ground rather than down from heaven . . .which may or may not have significance . . .
Nathan
I tend to believe in soul sleep and the spirit or energy goes back to God, but if we do have a spirit that walks around like Obiwan kenobi, then from this point here I could argue that the spirit of Samuel comes up from the ground, because he came from hell(abyss not ET), being of Jewish descent perhaps he was in Abraham's bossom. I've heard somewhere that Abraham's bossom is located in hell, just a thought. :2c:
All scripture is God breathed(Paul to Timothy).....
Holy men moved of God spake by the Holy Ghost(Peter to the church at large)
That is until it conflicts with some logic construct of man-made doctrine of systematic theology
The narrator of the book of Samuel is the Holy Ghost.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods(elohiym-mighty ones) ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
(1Sa 28:12-20)
Whatever a person believes about the spirit and the soul after death- the Holy Spirit is the narrator of the history and in no place is there even the slightest indication of any other thing than that the soul/being/person/mind of Samuel was speaking to Saul. The fulfillment of Samuels prophecy to Saul is a confirming factor as well. The surprise of the witch is also. I would rather speak with an attitude of inquiry and uncertainty than insist that the plain face of the word cannot be plain because it does not agree with my theology.
The narrator said, "....because of the words of Samuel".
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
(2Pe 1:20-21)
eaglesway, what if the angel... or god as the witch said she saw...name was Samuel? It is a possibility. What if there are angels with the same name as we all have? It was an angel that did most of the speaking for God but in most instances it appears to actually be God himself speaking.
CHB
eaglesway, there are many "psychics" on T.V. who supposedly talk to the dead. Are we to believe them if dear old aunt Sally, who was killed in a car crash, comes back from the dead and tells the audience there is a place of eternal torment in hell fire and damnation?
"The dead know nothing." Therefore it is impossible for Samuel, who was dead at the time Saul went to the witch, to have known anything about Saul's predicament. It was just a familiar spirit.
I've been out of the loop for the last couple days, which appears that this thread has been quiet as well. But even in the latest comments, I've yet to see anyone use Scripture to accurately explain why it is that you continue to claim it's either an angel, spirit, or demonic deception when, as Eaglesway's last post clearly highlights that the author of the text is distinctly pointing out it was not a familiar spirit, it was not his angel, it was not anything but Samuel himself.
Of course it would have to be his spirit in the sense that his flesh is dead and buried. Soul sleep isn't really a solid answer due to the fact that it to, is theory. But I don't want to derail this into that, I simply have asked for someone to explain to me why you can take something that Scripture says is "this" and try to convince me that it's actually saying "that".
"If" this is a familiar spirit . . .then why would Scripture not be pointing that out here? It gives no indication that this was anyone other than Samuel. I really think that there is a reliance on a doctrine from one verse (dead know nothing) that is threatening the accuracy of other verses as a result.
For me, there are too many other passages that point to the fact that just because a man stops breathing doesn't mean the man stops existing. There's no indicatio of dormancy. In fact, from what I've seen and read, life continues on after our time in this realm comes to an end. We continue to exist, just in another dimension from this one we're in now.
This issue is almost like it doesn't matter what Scripture says here, that's not what it means because if it meant what it says, then that would interfere with a doctrine of death . . .and I say, so be it. I'd rather let go of a doctrine, which is merely a choice of what to believe . . .than to become defiant against what appears to be pretty plain.
Again, it surprises me that I'm the one defending written Scripture because I for one, pursue patterns over literal quotations due to the fact that spiritual truth is revealed inwardly rather than filtered through natural means of understanding.
If you have a revelation that Samuel was not raised from the dead, then Scripture would also support that as well. But in this case, it's not being presented as a revelation, rather it's being presented as something conflicting with another passage . . .or belief of what another passage is saying.
I dont believe it can be answered any better than
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
1Sa 25:1 And Samuel dieth, and all Israel are gathered, and mourn for him, and bury him in his house, in Ramah;
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 24, 2010, 05:52:55 PM
I dont believe it can be answered any better than
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
1Sa 25:1 And Samuel dieth, and all Israel are gathered, and mourn for him, and bury him in his house, in Ramah;
:2c:
Yeah, I'm aware of that "one" verse that continues to be used as the platform to reject all other ideas that there is life after death. How about looking at the whole context?
Eccl. 9
3 It seems so tragic that everyone under the sun suffers the same fate. That is why people are not more careful to be good. Instead, they choose their own mad course, for they have no hope. There is nothing ahead but death anyway. 4 There is hope only for the living. As they say, "It's better to be a live dog than a dead lion!"
5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6 Whatever they did in their lifetime—loving, hating, envying—is all long gone. They no longer play a part in anything here on earth. 7 So go ahead. Eat your food with joy, and drink your wine with a happy heart, for God approves of this! 8 Wear fine clothes, with a splash of cologne! 9 Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you under the sun. The wife God gives you is your reward for all your earthly toil. 10 Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.So, out of this we are going to base our theology that there is no knowledge in death? Look at the over-all message he's saying. Are we also then to beleive that we might as well live however we want because it's all pointless and we're going to just die and blow away anyway?
This is the result of living in the Old Covenant system. It's not establishing truth at all. It's not looking forward in hope. It's not even looking forward. The author is sharing a point of view from the state of mind he's in. There's no way I would pick a verse out of this and build a theory that there's no knowledge beyond death.
Are we forgetting that Jesus reversed this line of thinking? Was not his message about life and abundant life? Resurrection from the state of death? And yet you want to try to convince others that even though you can receive life in this realm of death, when you die, everything you received amounts to nothing? This is not the message Jesus left us with. it's not his nature that we become forgotten, that we just deteriorate and fade away.
Choose to believe that your soul is going to just rot away in the grave if you wish, but for me, I believe life has come where death once ruled. I choose to beleive when this body gives it's last breath, the spirit within it will be transported into the realm of abundant life without the limitations of the realm of carnality or flesh.
I also choose to beleive when Scripture states it was Samuel who was raised from the dead, that it was Samuel who was raised from the dead. I find it so puzzling to see people reject this form of resurrection and embrace a doctrine of death. I find it even more puzzling that people also choose to believe demons or the demonic realm prophecies God's plan to men. It's a bit troubling, really.
Many posts have been put out in confidence that what's being said is truth when what's been written is being pushed aside, assumptions are replacing the very words written and a different message is being presented as doctrine.
For me to believe it was anything other than Samuel, requires me to deny what's been written in the first place. Can an ungodly person raise someone from the dead? I'd use this very passage as an example that it can happen, but obviously, people here choose to brush off the fact that Scripture states it happened in this passage so I guess it wouldn't do much good to reference it.
However, as I first stated at the beginning before I realized what the other belief on this was . . .that Jesus did refer to people who exercise in the ministering gifts without the true authority of the Spirit as those whom he states to "depart from me, I never knew you".
Scripture also says the tongue has the power to bring death "and" to bring life. It doesn't say only a godly tongue, but "any" tongue. So for me, it was a witch that did indeed bring Samuel back to life and prophecy Saul's demise. The other verse used to defend the idea that in death there is no knowledge, as far as I'm concerned, is not a passage establishing truth from a resurrected state.
When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning. But my spirit lives on. My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead. But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being. Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on.
So what do you think happens to a person in the old testament Nathan?
Also what happens from your view after death, of a person who has lived in 1700AD who dies without knowing or believing in Jesus Christ, do they sleep?
You said, "When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning. But my spirit lives on. My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead. But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being. Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on."
"But to say "I" go into a state of dormancy....."
Nathan I believe this verse will help.
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 24, 2010, 10:23:09 PM
You said, "When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning. But my spirit lives on. My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead. But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being. Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on."
"But to say "I" go into a state of dormancy....."
Nathan I believe this verse will help.
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Are you using this to support the sleep? Or to support knowledge after death? I use this to support the fact that there "is" knowledge and wisdom. That this was where Samuel's spirit went when he died, which is why he knew what Saul's demise would be. He was in the realm where God resided, so when the witch called him back over to our realm, he already knew what would happen to Saul because he was now dwelling in the realm where everything was already finished.
Samuel died, dead ISam.25:1. If you read I Sam.15:26- you will see that Samuel already told Saul the Lord was through with him, met his demise as you say.
Later when Saul goes to see the witch, the Lord dont work with witches. Well, the witch does her congerin and Sauls mind indulges in his imagination, hoping he will get a positive word.
Anyway, IF Samuel would have been brought forth, it would have been brought DOWN, not up. The spirit of Samuel returned to the God who gave it.
The dead no not anything.
Rom 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
You are ALIVE in Christ, right?
1Co 15:55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Dont know if this helps. Peace and Love Through Jesus
No, but thanks for trying . .. I still believe if it were anything other than Samuel, Scripture would not have stated it was Samuel talking to Saul. It would have stated that it was a familiar spirit deceiving Saul. I'm still thinking the perception about death on the other passages is what's not quite in alignment. That's the thing about perception, if it's accurate, all of Scripture will harmonize with it. If it's not, there will be areas where it just won't fit. For me, this is one of them and there's still not been any explanation that answers the question why is Scripture stating it was Samuel if it wasn't.
:cloud9: My :2c: We don't JUST have a spirit and a body, we have a SOUL, which is feminine in nature. The spirit returns to the one that sent it, but the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while still in the body. Samuel was a prophet, and they were anointed by God with the Spirit to fulfill that function. He was brought up, because the soul of him was still trapped, unto another day when Christ would arise.
The only way he was raised up is because God allowed it to happen, gave Saul what he thought he wanted and used it to judge him with it AGAIN, just like he did when He gave the Israelites meat/quail to eat. Be careful what you pray for you just might get it!
Think about what death IS; the spirit leaves the body AND the soul behind. So what happens to the soul? If "she" is not fully redeemed (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling), a "divorce" happens at the death of the body when the spirit leaves.
God puts them together here for the purpose of working out our salvation, and finding our way back the garden we fell from, thru Christ. This is why it says what GOD has put together let no man put assunder.
And why Jesus told the Pharisees who asked Him about divorce, He said, "For the hardness of your hearts, Moses (the letter/literal mindset) allowed a bill of divorcement. When you run those word meanings down you find out hardness of your hearts means, "dull of hearing".
So let me rephrase that scripture now. Because "you" are hard of hearing/deaf (the Spirit speaking), the Letter, will allow your spirit to be separated from your soul (divorce) = DIE.
This is why it is said, the DEAF shall hear.....we must seek to hear in this day because it is the dawning of the 7th day (Sabbath John 5) when all those that hear the VOICE of the Son of God, shall live. Hereafter we'll not know Him (or hear Him) after the flesh but after the Spirit. Blessings...
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
Card, your last post seems to carry the most understanding in it so far for me. As far as I know . . . there's not been a whole lot of clarity as to what really happens to the soul when the body dies. It's hard to even clarify exactly what my soul "is". Soulishness is carnal and the mind is one of the major components of the soul, and as we come to the cross, our minds are renewed through the experience of submitting our minds to the finished works of the cross. . . .just talking out loud here . . .
But without the conscious decision to accept Christ into my heart, my soul then pays the consequences of remaining bound after I die? Doesn't that bring us back to square one all over again? For to be bound after death now is to then say the power of the cross is only strong enough to free me when my mind gives the permission for it to do so.
Would this not lead back to preaching fear again due to the fact if you don't ask Jesus into your heart, your soul will be trapped after you die? Jesus "says" there's aboundant life, but only to those who's minds have accepted the idea that Jesus paid for my ransom.
So I'm still uncertain that the spirit and soul don't continue to remain connected. Death separates a husband and wife in the natural. In the natural, the wife leaves her old nature/name behind and takes on the husbands name. The mind, once married to my spirit, is to drop it's old identity and take on the spirit nature.
When death occurs, my body is laid to rest. My soul is no longer manfesting through it yet are you saying its' then "trapped" in my corpse? What happens to those people who are cremated? Does that release the soul from being trapped? If it's trapped, what exactly is it trapped to? Still a pretty gray area for me.
:cloud9: My :2c:. This is going to be long, there's no short way to explain it, so bear with me. For what it's worth (and no one has to believe me), I was taken into that realm of someone's bondage IN THE SPIRIT BY HIM, as He, I, and 4 friends, COOPERATIVELY (ie. using the speaking gifts) set that person's soul free. This was not a "universal hell" as has been wrongly taught.
We are a triune being of spirit, soul, and body; and as you know, the tabernacle had 3 compartments. The spirit is what is saved first of the 3 parts of man. So we start with all 3 parts in the realm of the outer court. That's the same as Adam/spirit and Eve/soul standing in the wilderness after the fall, and this is the place of OUTER darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So Adam/spirit comes back into the light of the Spirit first, and is as the priests of the inner court realm that went in to minister in the presence of the Candlestick for the others in the (outer court), which obviously was for HIS WIFE (soul) and the souls that could not come past the outer court by reason of them not being of the priesthood (redeemed spirit/Adam).
On a spiritual understanding level; BECAUSE this swallowing up of Adam/spirit is a type of "death", exchanging our life for His at that level, the Eve/soul becomes as a "widow", and this enables HIS BROTHER to raise up seed to him, which is why it says the WOMAN is SAVED in childbirth, ie. impregnated by Holy seed, birthing the Son.
See, our understanding was that the Son is ONLY male, and that has hindered us from seeing the truth. But in Adam, He made them both male/spirit and female/soul IN ONE, and so too in the original pattern, Christ, there is neither male nor female; but not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.
I could go a lot deeper on this part right now, but let me leave it here for the sake of this thread.
(And yes, Micah, it IS OF His good pleasure, because the Levites were chosen by Him to the priesthood, just as Adam was a priest in the garden.)
SO; this is why it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That word salvation there also means deliverance, ie. deliverance from the things that have the soul bound.
Now for the pattern timeline; we have ALL been in that dark night of the soul for the two days of Pentecost that the inner court represents in the timeline afforded us by the Tabernacle, by Jesus's own words to Herod, ie. today (1000) and tomorrow (1000) I will do cures and cast out devils.....= deliverance of the soul.
So, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.
This is why NDE's that say they went to what they perceived as "hell" also say they DESCENDED, ie. "whose god is their belly" (belly means innermost being). The spirit ASCENDS back to the One who gave it. This is why the rivers of living water are to come out of our innermost being, our bellies.
This separation of soul and spirit instead of being one in Him, is a false "balance", which God says He hates, because the WEIGHT of sin that so easily besets us, has weighed down the soul. They are meant to both be redeemed in Him and brought into union IN Him, with Him being in the midst, just as He was in the midst of Moses and Elijah, and just as He was in the midst of the 2 cherubim in the cloud of glory, over the Ark of the Covenant in type.
This pattern of separation was shown when the fiery furnace walked between the 2 PIECES (the "beginning" and the "end") of the animal, and when Jesus walked in the firmament (heaven) which is in the MIDST of the waters, by walking ABOVE the waters below the firmament, when He walked on the water.
This is born witness by, there is one mediator ("middle man") between God and man, ie. the pieces, unredeemed spirit and soul separated from God in the outer court, but there ever lives an Intercessor between them. Not coincidentally, WE are called to be intercessors, and there is an unimaginable depth to that statement.
Whatsover sins YE remit, they are remitted, whatsoever sins YE retain, they are retained.
Death of the body does not change this fact, because He is perceiving from the realm of Spirit, and so they/we were already "dead" by His definition, IF we are still in that outer court experience realm. Which is why Jesus said, let the DEAD, bury the dead.
He took Eve/soul out of Adam to show him what was in his stony (ribs/calcium, covering for the heart) heart. He took the Israelites out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts.
We were created in *their* image, male/spirit and female/soul, created He THEM. The soul is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed you plant in it. These seeds/tares were planted by the enemy of our souls, while we slept. Adam was asleep, but God never woke him up until Christ.
This is why Christ in you, is the hope of glory/entering into the Holy of Holies in type. As I said, Christ is shown in the middle of the pattern as the Candlestick in the midst of the inner court.
But the good news is that just as the tabernacle shows the separation between spirit and soul, and between spirit and soul and HIM, David's tabernacle shows the end result of union of outer court and Holy of Holies, ie. there was no inner court, both were swallowed up of life/Holy of Holies.
AND: God did not create their "hell", they did. By our OWN WICKEDNESS we are reproved, we eat (to consume/be one with the BELLY) of the fruit of our own lips. It is NOT permanent, as the patterns above show, and as the Jews knew who believed in a type of purgatory such as this, and to this day pray for one year for the deceased. Blessings....
"Not coincidentally, WE are called to be intercessors, and there is an unimaginable depth to that statement."
Card, it almost scares me sometimes.
:cloud9: He DOES like to pull up our tent stakes and make us move on to follow Him WHERESOEVER the Lamb goest, doesn't He, LOL? Blessings...
Interesting - Could Samuel's spirit that the witch summoned be brought up, from Samuels soul. This kind of thing has happened to Gods people, there was a man who appeared in the third heaven in filthy rags, could this be where the body/soul is upon the Earth but the through spirit the man is transfered to heaven. I cannot remember who it was, Joshua perhaps.
So even though Samuel was experiencing soul sleep, the witch disturbed him and brought him up.
Without the body the spirit might be so bored that sleeping is the only thing do do, especially for a carnal minded person, who cares for the things of this world, but believers through Christ, the spirit can now be set free to go to heaven and at least have a job of worshipping God, until the resurection of their body to become souls, so that they can drink and party in style with Jesus in the marriage supper.
I'm not there yet Card, I'm not denying your experience at all. Some of it makes sense, some of it is very rich and deep. It may be coming, but I'm not fully there with it yet. I do enjoy the sound that comes from you though.
Quote from: Nathan on June 25, 2010, 09:26:52 PM
I'm not there yet Card, I'm not denying your experience at all. Some of it makes sense, some of it is very rich and deep. It may be coming, but I'm not fully there with it yet. I do enjoy the sound that comes from you though.
Don't worry Nathan your not the only one, even a genius! like me is finding this one a large one to eat :happygrin:
:cloud9: Well, Nate, what I do (and it happens all the time) is when I hear the sound but can't discern the form making it, I keep pressing Him on it, until eventually He lets me see the form = made in His image and likeness. Blessings...
QuoteSo, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.
This did NOT make my day. I have a ton of desires that need realigning. Does this mean when it's my turn to go , I have a cave to look forward to? I'm not joking either.
Pray to God that he will give you time to confess your sins before its your time and God guarantees, that he will cleanse you of all sin and unrighteousness, I think we have established here the fallacy of eternal torture, but the nature of the afterlife and lake of fire, is not as understood, so the best way to avoid any trouble is to confess Jesus as lord and saviour and believe that
'he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out'
And Jesus said that not me, lol, I don't think my Sherman tank has enough firepower to blast out your sins, you'll need more fire power, son, go to the one who calls himself the lion of the tribe of judah, I hear he's got bite and fire that melts even this tanks armour, he even carries a sword, that rivalls any samurai, it cuts between the bone and marrow, but don't worry if you kiss the son he won't be angry and tell him Think tank sent ya, so that I can get a piece of the comission.
It is true that we all speak of "soul" as if there is a separate enitiy inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true.
Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.
Take a blue piece of transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow, on the other side, and GREEN in the middle.
The blue is the body,the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit.
Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul
disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.
They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but
there are distinctions between soul and spirit. (L.Ray Smith)
I agree, I learnt that from scripture. If I didn't learn from the bible I would be like most people who think the soul is the ghost part of the person who lives inside the body. In films and in video games, souls are sometimes sucked up by evil or by weapons that good characters use to destroy demons. I know demons don't have souls because they don't have bodies. The bible mentions that even animals has a soul. So what is the difference between a man and a animal?
Surely there must be something extra in man that animals don't have, for the man can think.
If man is the same as animal, then it must mean that God has designed animals with limitations that they cannot break, for animals have not developed at all, but people have learnt great information.
I am into metaphysics and according to science, the man thinks which triggers formless substance to be created, so e.g if a man thinks on a woman long enough, he will develop the necessary material changes in order to like that woman, without this material change in the body, then the woman will simply be as any other woman. So if one thinks of high quality thoughts of health, then formless substance will create changes in the body that correlate with health, this process is a long process though. So if a man thinks of evil things, it will create the material neccesary for conduit, this in the bible is known as a 'stronghold' which must be eliminated and brought down by praying and thinking good things. Sometimes an unclean spirit will attach onto this stronghold and maintain it, so when Christs soldiers come to destroy it, the unclean spirit will rebuild the stronghold, so the unclean spirit must be cast out and the stronghold cast down.
I beleive you have come closer to enlightening me than many. If I understand you, I would have to say that "thinking" is what most have taken the occasion to call "soul." I cant get past the Word in Gen. 2:7 that man became a living soul or creature. And as you say animals are living creatures so they are souls; not that they "have a soul."
Yes we as humans think, and the way I understand it, should you think long enough on a thought, that in turn gives fuel for your desire, this is called imagination. Now imagination is something animals, living creatures(souls) do not have, they have instinct.
Ezk. 18:4 and 20 read "....the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God
So the soul(the individual) dies.
Jas 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
Jas 1:15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
Quote from: Zero7 on June 25, 2010, 10:06:05 PM
QuoteSo, then as to why this occurs. At the death of the body, if the parts of the soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) have not all been consumed in Him and "realigned" with His, it stays trapped in it's own stony heart (which appears cave-like; see Dr. Eby's book) with what it did not overcome thru the Spirit while still in the body.
This did NOT make my day. I have a ton of desires that need realigning. Does this mean when it's my turn to go , I have a cave to look forward to? I'm not joking either.
:cloud9: I know the feeling Zero.....to say it was a shock to me was an understatement. We must die to self; the premise of UR is that He saves us either here or later. What hasn't been clear is applying that to the parts of man "fractionally". I also think this is ONE reason why He told the disciples I have much to tell you but you can't bear it right now.
The good news is that He does not leave us in that state, but this is why saviours arise (compare with sons of God of Romans 8) on Mt. Zion, to set creation (the soul is the woman/lesser glory that was created) free. Blessings....
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 25, 2010, 10:43:25 PM
It is true that we all speak of "soul" as if there is a separate enitiy inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true.
Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.
Take a blue piece of transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow, on the other side, and GREEN in the middle.
The blue is the body,the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit.
Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul
disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.
They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but
there are distinctions between soul and spirit.
:cloud9: My :2c: BECAME a LIVING soul = a soul that has the LIFE of the Spirit. He called THEIR name Adam.
David said, thou will not suffer my SOUL to STAY in *hell*. He wasn't just talking of the Messiah to come there as in a prophetic utterance concerning the Messiah who would go into the HEART OF THE EARTH (belly/innermost being/heart of Adam) and raise up the SOULS of them that had died. It wasn't their spirits down there, for they return to the One that gave them.
Spirit and soul in both original languages, is not the same thing. Blessings....
Gen 2:7
(ASV) And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(YLT) And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
The human being..man...adam...the whale...deer...bird...living thing is living soul.
Maybe we need to take a look at the original language.
If animals and people are both called souls, then it must mean that God has placed limitations on what an animal can think.
For monkeys can do some impressive stuff
You guys have unveiled some extremely powerful things in your recent posts. I love the overlapping metaphor . . .God made man a red celaphane, he breathed his golden (yellow) spirit into man, when the two overlapped, it made man a living soul. (green) When the man dies, the red is separated from the golden and the green is no longer visible.
Question . . .does my spirit have my unique traits at all? Or is that only something that manifests when my spirit is operating in this body? This is really a great thinker . . . Perhaps that's why being given glorified bodies is so important . . .it's so my soul can manifest without the curse of carnality being in effect.
As far as animals being souls and man being a living soul . . .does Scripture not say man at best is still a beast? Was not every animal created out of the same original mold as Adam was? Eve is the only being that was not created out of the earth. Yet when she was created, she was "in" Adam. And "they" were man.
The soul (Eve) was within man, but there was no reproductive thought . .it was not good for man to be alone . . .so he took the womb out of man and presented it to man . . .God took what was within, separated it and presented back to man, where man became one with it and began reproducing after his own kind. My spirit plants life seeds of thought into my mind, she then gives birth to understanding of what the nature of those life seeds are, which reproduces after their own kind. Thought produces thought.
Cardinal shares out a thought, that thought penetraits WW's mind and produces an extension of the first thought which expands on the original and multiplies into many truths . . .we're doing the same thing in this conversation. Kinda gives me the willies . . .
So . . .back to Abraham . . .his so was no longer visible, so it wasn't his soul that came back. For me, I'm still staying with, it was his spirit.
.
:cloud9: Hey Nate....do you mean Samuel, and soul, up in that last post??? :dontknow:
By saying "so", he was just talking hip. By saying Abraham, I'm not sure what he was talking about. :bigGrin:
Yeah . . sheesh . .where'd I come up with Abraham???
:cloud9: LOL....it's TGIF??? :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2010, 02:56:03 AM
By saying "so", he was just talking hip. By saying Abraham, I'm not sure what he was talking about. :bigGrin:
:laughing7:
Ha . . I just got that "so" and "hip" joke . . .
I wonder if something isn't happening in transit with posting . . .I think I'm writing it so it can be read, then I go back and reread what I wrote and half the letters seem to disappear . . wonder if their not "soul" related!! Ha!! Get it . . they "disappear" in "transit" kinda like in the "transition" from natural life to natural death . . .(crickets chirping) . . . never mind.
I'm done for the day, I'll check in tomorrow morning with ya . . .
Blessings.
left humor :sigh:
Quote from: Nathan on June 26, 2010, 03:11:38 AM
Ha . . I just got that "so" and "hip" joke . . .
I wonder if something isn't happening in transit with posting . . .I think I'm writing it so it can be read, then I go back and reread what I wrote and half the letters seem to disappear . . wonder if their not "soul" related!! Ha!! Get it . . they "disappear" in "transit" kinda like in the "transition" from natural life to natural death . . .(crickets chirping) . . . never mind.
I'm done for the day, I'll check in tomorrow morning with ya . . .
Blessings.
:cloud9: :laughing7:
Just a little input from L.Ray Smith "Exposing those who Contradict" Page 11 and the Soul part is page 4
http://bible-truths.com/fulltext/fulltext.htm
TV ANALOGY
Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.
Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.
Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.
Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.
Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).
At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.
But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.
And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.
Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.
If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).
There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this. Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep, "The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16) This is substantiated by the fact that: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6). Again: " ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
This whole Book is really worth it's weigh in Silver.
Before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul after God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 26, 2010, 03:39:48 AM
Before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul after God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.
CHB
Before God breathed into man, he was dead, he was clay, dust of the ground.
Get it?
When the Lord God breathed
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 25, 2010, 11:46:39 PM
I beleive you have come closer to enlightening me than many. If I understand you, I would have to say that "thinking" is what most have taken the occasion to call "soul." I cant get past the Word in Gen. 2:7 that man became a living soul or creature. And as you say animals are living creatures so they are souls; not that they "have a soul."
Yes we as humans think, and the way I understand it, should you think long enough on a thought, that in turn gives fuel for your desire, this is called imagination. Now imagination is something animals, living creatures(souls) do not have, they have instinct.
Ezk. 18:4 and 20 read "....the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God
So the soul(the individual) dies.
Jas 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
Jas 1:15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
I appreciate your kind comments Micah, thank you and also Nathan's
God bless
Card,
Remind us that when God breathes OUT, He also breathes IN.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 26, 2010, 04:24:46 AM
Card,
Remind us that when God breathes OUT, He also breathes IN.
AHH nice one :happy3:
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Just because something is unseen and inperceptible by human eyes, does not make it non-existant. If it did, you'd have to take heaven away, too.
Just to make it plain, I'm not stating there is a hell; I'm saying there is a purgatory-type experience for the soul. There is a difference. Saying this is no different than saying there's a cross for the flesh. Flesh is not meant there as literal flesh, but the things of flesh like lust, hate, murder, ect., that are real but in the unseen realm just as the soul is.
So; since the soul is defined as mind, will, emotions, and desires, ie. what makes you, YOU, which are not sensory experiences, tell me then what of man is saved, and when is it saved? And if none of these is saved, then what's the point?
The saints that are coming in the clouds with Him, is that a literal physical body appearance and if so, do their bodies have a soul? And if so, how'd that happen since it died already for them to be in heaven, according to this no-soul concept?
And if you say, He created a new soul for them, then why is it He can't do that with the one He already gave them, you know, the "dead" one?
The ones that rose from the dead and were seen of many, did they have a soul again? Or do you think they were only spirits without a body, in which case, how did they RISE instead of coming down from heaven, since the spirit would have already returned to the One who sent it? And if you say it was only their body that arose, then what of their soul?
The body is not the soul, and neither is the spirit the soul, which is why we are spirit, SOUL, and body, not spirit and body. The soul is feminine, the feminine aspect of ADAM, and God Himself said it is not good for man/Adam/spirit to be alone, ie. without his soul = dead.
As for the dead knowing nothing, the dead know only as much as they knew in life, but they know nothing of the wisdom of the Spirit that will help their condition, they await the Savior, which is why He had to go preach to them the LIFE that would enable them to raise. And the last time I looked, the dead bodies were not buried in the HEART of the earth.
Which is why necromancy, summoning up the dead SOUL to talk to for direction, ect., is forbidden, because the soul knows nothing more without the Spirit of Christ, than they did while alive in the body. It is the Spirit of Christ we are to seek to hear and receive direction from.
Incidentally, necromancy spirits are alive and well in the churches today, and they are not having seances. Ever cringe after a certain point when people stood up and gave their "testimonies"?
Though well-meaning usually, after so long of them going on and on and on about how "bad" they used to be, the things they used to do that were sin (usually in great detail), ect., pretty soon you sense by the Spirit something is not right.
What just happened is, a spirit of necromancy just raised up, because they just "raised that person from the dead" and brought him back to "life" again. This is why Paul did not go on and on about all the evil he did, and why he said, "Reckon yourselves DEAD", which seems contradictory to all the scriptures about how we now have LIFE.
But again, the Word speaks to us "fractionally", ie. some apply to the spirit, some apply to the soul, some apply to the body, some apply to the whole man, some apply to nations of men, some apply to mankind. Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 26, 2010, 04:24:46 AM
Card,
Remind us that when God breathes OUT, He also breathes IN.
:cloud9: LOL.....yes, shared that once before. :thumbsup:
Card,
Remind us that when God breathes OUT, He also breathes IN.
What does that mean?
:cloud9: He breathes "out", your spirit goes into a flesh body, you literally live; He breathes "in", the spirit returns to the One who sent it = you literally die. Blessings....
let there be light
I say goodnight, but I dont understand. And still why is this in the lake of fire post?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 26, 2010, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on June 26, 2010, 03:39:48 AM
Before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul after God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.
CHB
Before God breathed into man, he was dead, he was clay, dust of the ground.
Get it?
When the Lord God breathed
So plants are also souls?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 26, 2010, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on June 26, 2010, 03:39:48 AM
Before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul after God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.
CHB
Before God breathed into man, he was dead, he was clay, dust of the ground.
Get it?
When the Lord God breathed
Wasn't that what I said?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL" (Gen. 2:7).
If man became a living soul when God breathed life into him, he must have been a dead soul before.
CHB
But does it also mean man was dead before?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 09:51:17 AM
But does it also mean man was dead before?
Well, he wasn't alive. What is the opposite of alive? :bigGrin: I guess it all depends on what one considers dead to be. My dictionary says dead is "without life".
The verse shows that man wasn't alive until God breathed into him the breath of life then he became a living soul. Did God breath a soul into him or did the soul already exist and God just brought it to life by breathing into it?
CHB
:cloud9: The soul already existed. He took her out of Adam's heart and made her into a visible form to show her to him. Rib is as a side, the same word there is used for Noah's ark's boards. Side, though, does not carry the same thought as we think of side; it's more like an opposite, but equal, opposite being one is spirit, one is flesh but the lesser reflects the greater. It's like looking into a body of water or a mirror. Compare this thought with image and likeness.
He poured Himself into His creation, but because it has visibility, it is as the lesser glory, just as the wife/soul is the lesser glory of the man/spirit, and the letter is the lesser glory of the Word that is eternal. This is why the creation mirrors attributes of His glory/nature. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
:cloud9: The soul already existed. He took her out of Adam's heart and made her into a visible form to show her to him. Rib is as a side, the same word there is used for Noah's ark's boards.
A rib is the only body part when amputated correctly grows back :winkgrin:
The Y-chromosome is alos missing a side compared to the X-chromosome :msealed:
(Ezek. 18:4) "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
If our soul is spirit and goes on to the Father when we die as some believe, then why does this say "the soul that sinneth it shall die"
If our soul is spirit and goes on to be with God or retained in some holding place, that would mean it didn't die, but this verse says differently.
According to this verse the soul dies when the body dies.
CHB
I'm still not set one way or another on this, but CHB the passage you quote is again, an Old Testament passage. Christ brought resurrection to that which "was" dead. Secondly, I think this would increase the significance to the fact that Eve did take and eat the forbidden fruit first . . .but nothing happened. She represents the soul. She sinned and nothing happened. It wasn't until she "fed" it to Adam (first step of disorder happens when my mind feeds my spirit . . .should always be the other way around) And he ate it. Adam represents my spirit.
Having ungodly thoughts isn't the problem. "Acting" on those thoughts is when consequences emerge. If we don't want to act on them, then we should be taking authority over them . . .thus Hebrews 10 tells us that our spirits are to "take captive our thoughts".
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 05:27:14 AM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Just because something is unseen and inperceptible by human eyes, does not make
The body is not the soul, and neither is the spirit the soul, which is why we are spirit, SOUL, and body, not spirit and body. The soul is feminine, the feminine aspect of ADAM, and God Himself said it is not good for man/Adam/spirit to be alone, ie. without his soul = dead.
Hello cardinal, I'm not denying what you said, I have not processed it yet, but from my understanding I would have said that the soul part, being the physical embodiment, would be masculine and that the spirit being receptive would be the feminine part. So Adam was created in balance, but yet his body swayed on the masculine side, so he would need a body that complimented this, so God created a physical representation of femininity by creating Eve, so that now both their bodies are complimenting each other, but yet both Adam and Eve retain masculine and feminine qualities, each can exibit qualities of the other, but yet the physical make up means that Eve would more likely, behave in a feminine manner and Adam because of his masculine body, would push him to behave in a masculine manner. Typically men and woman in history would not allow, people to exhibit, traits of the other, but after Christ came to restore truth and one of his teachings being
'There is neither Jew or gentile male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus'
I belive that one of those truth would be to bring back wholeness in our souls, so that we are not overly dominated (I say overly because it must be thus, that we are dominated by the traits of our gender) by one gender expression, so that we can become more alive. So now it is more acceptable for a man to look after his kids and for a woman to work, this gives society more freedom. :2c:
Quote...I'm saying there is a purgatory-type experience for the soul....
I agree 100% Cardinal. NDE'ers say there are different realms or frequencies for the soul. The 'hitlers, stalins and cold-hearted' are in a lower realm and it's quite unpleasant. The 'good-hearted' are in a realm frequently referred to as summerland and they are enjoying things we can't even imagine.
One thing we need to remember, time ceases on the other side, thats why when a NDE'er comes back, even though they were only dead for say 10 minutes, they say it felt like they were there for months/years.
From what I read, whenever someone in a lower realm cried out to God, He pulled them out (forget Mary Baxter, she is a fraud). No one stays in that state forever as almost everyone here knows. As far as using scripture using the term 'sleep', that is very accurate. What happens when we sleep now? We dream. On the other side, dreams are reality.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 12:14:15 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
:cloud9: The soul already existed. He took her out of Adam's heart and made her into a visible form to show her to him. Rib is as a side, the same word there is used for Noah's ark's boards.
A rib is the only body part when amputated correctly grows back :winkgrin:
The Y-chromosome is alos missing a side compared to the X-chromosome :msealed:
:cloud9: That's really interesting WW :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on June 26, 2010, 04:55:23 PM
(Ezek. 18:4) "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
If our soul is spirit and goes on to the Father when we die as some believe, then why does this say "the soul that sinneth it shall die"
If our soul is spirit and goes on to be with God or retained in some holding place, that would mean it didn't die, but this verse says differently.
According to this verse the soul dies when the body dies.
CHB
:cloud9: That's a good point, CHB. :thumbsup: And again, from what He's shown me, the soul is the "us" part of the equation. It's what people are seeing when they say they saw a ghost.
BEFORE He showed me this, I had decided that ghosts were demonic spirits impersonating humans, because of thinking that the soul and spirit were the same thing. So I reasoned that if the spirit returns to the One who sent it, then ghosts can't be of humans.
So this represents a change for me also, in my thinking. Some of the scriptures didn't make sense obviously, if I thought that the soul and the spirit were the same, and it was nagging at my spirit that something wasn't "right".
The change started with Him speaking to my spirit, over and over again one day, "Male and female created He them", and I just kept answering, "Yes, I know, Lord", LOL. :BangHead: (He doesn't have to hit me with a brick much, DOES He, LOL?)
FINALLY, when it sunk in He was trying to get me to press in, the understanding "AHA" moment was quickened to me about the 5th time of Him saying this, and I HEARD it. Male and female created He THEM. BOTH of them were created male and female. And then I was like "duh", I am so dense, Lord, LOL. Blessings...
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2010, 06:45:32 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 05:27:14 AM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Just because something is unseen and inperceptible by human eyes, does not make
The body is not the soul, and neither is the spirit the soul, which is why we are spirit, SOUL, and body, not spirit and body. The soul is feminine, the feminine aspect of ADAM, and God Himself said it is not good for man/Adam/spirit to be alone, ie. without his soul = dead.
Hello cardinal, I'm not denying what you said, I have not processed it yet, but from my understanding I would have said that the soul part, being the physical embodiment, would be masculine and that the spirit being receptive would be the feminine part. So Adam was created in balance, but yet his body swayed on the masculine side, so he would need a body that complimented this, so God created a physical representation of femininity by creating Eve, so that now both their bodies are complimenting each other, but yet both Adam and Eve retain masculine and feminine qualities, each can exibit qualities of the other, but yet the physical make up means that Eve would more likely, behave in a feminine manner and Adam because of his masculine body, would push him to behave in a masculine manner. Typically men and woman in history would not allow, people to exhibit, traits of the other, but after Christ came to restore truth and one of his teachings being
'There is neither Jew or gentile male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus'
I belive that one of those truth would be to bring back wholeness in our souls, so that we are not overly dominated (I say overly because it must be thus, that we are dominated by the traits of our gender) by one gender expression, so that we can become more alive. So now it is more acceptable for a man to look after his kids and for a woman to work, this gives society more freedom. :2c:
:cloud9: I agree with much of this, but the spirit is the male and soul is feminine. The gender of the word is even feminine. The male plants the seed, the seed is spirit. The soul is literally the "womb-man". She reproduces whatever seed is planted in it.
What you are saying of the spirit being receptive is true, but it's our in Christ Spirit that becomes receptive to His leading again, just as Adam was before the fall. It's all about Him consuming every part of us. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 25, 2010, 08:48:36 PMWe are a triune being of spirit, soul, and body; and as you know, the tabernacle had 3 compartments. The spirit is what is saved first of the 3 parts of man. So we start with all 3 parts in the realm of the outer court. That's the same as Adam/spirit and Eve/soul standing in the wilderness after the fall, and this is the place of OUTER darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
More compartments ahead :winkgrin:
This post has been editted and moved to THIS (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4983.msg98042;topicseen#msg98042) thread.
Quote from: Zero7 on June 26, 2010, 07:11:51 PM
Quote...I'm saying there is a purgatory-type experience for the soul....
I agree 100% Cardinal. NDE'ers say there are different realms or frequencies for the soul. The 'hitlers, stalins and cold-hearted' are in a lower realm and it's quite unpleasant. The 'good-hearted' are in a realm frequently referred to as summerland and they are enjoying things we can't even imagine.
One thing we need to remember, time ceases on the other side, thats why when a NDE'er comes back, even though they were only dead for say 10 minutes, they say it felt like they were there for months/years.
From what I read, whenever someone in a lower realm cried out to God, He pulled them out (forget Mary Baxter, she is a fraud). No one stays in that state forever as almost everyone here knows. As far as using scripture using the term 'sleep', that is very accurate. What happens when we sleep now? We dream. On the other side, dreams are reality.
:cloud9: Ok, now here's some more He's given me to chew on. He made us in *their* image, male and female. He is a creative being. We are capable of creating, not just in the physical realm, but in the realm of spirit, and not just in HIS Spirit.
What the NDE's are seeing, is the "glory" their souls created, relative to the depth of their relationship with Him, or lack thereof, when they passed over. As I said earlier, we eat of the fruit of our own lips, and He reproves us with our own wickedness.
I read an account of a woman who died and went to the heaven experience and saw Jesus or a light being she knew was Jesus, can't remember which. Anyway, she talked about how beautiful it was, and she discovered all she had to do was TAKE A THOUGHT of it, and beautiful flowers sprung up before her as she walked thru this bright meadow scene.
Christ, Paul told the Ephesians, is FORMED IN US. By taking thoughts (which are His breath), that originate from the throne that reveal some aspect of HIS glory/nature, He begins to take "shape" in us. This is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT (ours) add one cubit to our stature (Christ in us) and why Christ in us, is the HOPE OF GLORY. The Word states there are different glories, some terrestrial, some celestial.
The thoughts that originate from the throne that are His breath, it's no different than when the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters (waters below the firmament, which is EVERYTHING under heaven), and the earth was void and without form. He is basically doing to our "earth" what He did in Genesis, and just like Adam, we are co-creators.
When Adam named the beasts, because He was set over the creation to have dominion as a king, and to have a priest function, those names/natures he spoke out of his HEART (his "Eve", the stony heart), came to pass.
The native Americans, who He told me had reached out and were "found" of the Great Spirit but only didn't know His name, were taught some truth (as ALL are, but they see thru a glass/darkened soul without the light of Christ within) regarding the NATURES of the beastly kingdom.
This is why He took the animals (carnal beastly natures) into Noah's ark. The ark represents Christ and the natures those things formed out of the heart/soul of us that need to be cleansed. He could have just created new ones after the flood, but the message would not have been there that He wanted to communicate. It required Noah's cooperation and obedience to take the "natures/names" into the Ark representing the covering of Christ.
It's also the same reason why He told them to put the tablets of the law (stony heart) into the Ark of the Covenant. The message is, the woman/soul MUST have a covering. What happened when "she" was uncovered, when the wrong people opened the Ark of the Covenant? Death ensued.
The same principle is why the rod of Moses ate the rod of the Egyptians: covering. The authority of God ALWAYS seeks to cover the woman/soul with Himself in mercy. Jesus showed this same principle with the woman they were going to stone to death.
The woman/soul being uncovered, produces GIANTS, which is what happened when the Nephalim spirits joined themselves to women. This is the same as the tares that were planted while we "slept". It's the same as the woman/soul that "sleeps", that has not awakened IN Christ, not awakened in the glory of His making, but of "her" own creation, ie. her "purgatory". Also, compare this with the GIANTS that were in the land of Canaan.
A giant is that which is above the measure of the stature of Christ, ie. excess flesh and bone/law/letter, adding to the ETERNAL WORD which is the risen Christ, which carries a curse. The curse is to have the plagues added to you (tares/darkness).
The book of life, IS CHRIST, and what He writes of it IN OUR HEARTS/WOMAN as His breath coming to us, transforming our souls INTO A HEART OF FLESH (celestial flesh = glorified Christ), producing the RIGHT GLORY, for the covering of our "woman".
So Christ IS the glory of the Father, that we are to PUT ON, as a covering for our soul/woman. This is how He is restoring His creation. "She" will no longer "wear" the shame of "her" transgression in this purgatory false glory, but "she" will be raised up and clothed with Christ. Praise You Father!
Canaan is as the glory, the promised "land". There are giants we created there, but no matter, for they are bread for us (we consume them/cover them with Christ).
A little aside here; the man was put to death for working on the sabbath by being stoned with stones at God's command. The same principle exists here. The stony hearts from which thoughts come that are not His thoughts, are the stones that stone us to DEATH, and not life.
Our taking thought, is as WORKS, HIS thoughts, lead us into His rest/sabbath, which is the same as the state/glory Adam had before the fall. This is why He prayed about the glory being restored, to change our "heaven/glory" from terrestrial in origin, to celestial, ie. the mind of Christ.
It is increasing the false covering of the "stony heart Eve/soulish realm" who usurps the authority of her husband in disobedience. The "stones" that HE desires we "stone" people with, are the scriptures/stones that have been "struck" by Him, to REVEAL the LIVING WATER of the life of the Spirit, which is the risen Christ.
This principle is why He/Christ will go to cover the "naked woman/soul" who is without covering, in a purgatory of "her" own making. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Righteousness is not only a character but a covering, and He comes and is forever coming, to cover our nakedness with Himself.
The scene in the tomb foretells this. The napkin they placed over His face, was neatly folded, AFTER He arose. This was a custom of the day, that when the master of the house left the table, but intended to come back, he would fold the napkin neatly so the servants would know He was returning. If it was just thrown down, they knew He was done. Well, HALLELUYAH, the Master returned and ever returns to cover us (face speaks of nature) with Himself. Blessings....
:cloud9: (WW's post for brevity) WW THAT IS TREASURE!!! Halleluyah, another piece of the puzzle that the pattern of the heavenlies, or heavenly things, bears witness to, ie. the TABERNACLE. Father, we give You praise, this day, for You alone are worthy!
Ok, glory attack.....now where is the rest of the article??? Blessings...
:cloud9: Hey, WW....will you repost that article under our Tabernacles sticky thread? Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 08:59:30 PM
:cloud9: Hey, WW....will you repost that article under our Tabernacles sticky thread? Blessings...
Done.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2010, 08:30:55 PMnow where is the rest of the article??? Blessings...
It was the forword of 450 page book. (http://www.askelm.com/books/book001.htm)
It's not really about the Tabernacle. It's mainly about where Jesus was crucified. But the author uses all kinds of facts to prove his point.
I'm just on page 31 so can't tell you about what kinds of stuff he's using. But the "temple has 3 altars" is interesting too.
I close this post with a tiny riddle. Was Jesus crucified near an altar? :winkgrin:
:cloud9: PS. I've just keep editing my last post a lot as different pieces of the puzzle are coming to mind, so bear with me. I hope I communicated what I was trying to express, with at least, SOME clarity, LOL.....praise You Father.
@ WW....I'd bet He was....He walked out the pattern PERFECTLY in all that He said and did. Blessings....
:cloud9: Ok, wow...there is so much more tying into this, I decided to start another post. This principle of Him changing "her" glory, is also born witness of Him saying to Herod that fox, that today (1000 years) and tomorrow (1000 years) I will do cures and cast out devils, which He has been doing if we are pressing in to Him.
This doing cures (healing same as making WHOLE, the Spirit coming into union with the soul) and casting out devils is part of the plan to change our "glory" that the soul inhabits.
The devils that are cast out, are cast out of our soul, thus changing our glory by changing our perception of HIS glory, thru the mind of Christ. This is why it says we are changed from glory (terrestrial/carnal mind) to glory (celestial/mind of Christ).
Wow. Ok, this is also why He talked about the men/spirits that had changed their glory....
They are the creation of the giants in our "land", the abode of the soul, the "glory" it has attained to at present, whether in the body or out of it, it matters not, it is in a glory of some sort.
But He said the 3rd day He would be perfected. We know He was already perfect, but He had no where to lay His head. The authority rests upon the shoulders = mind of Christ, and as it was "fleshed out" in the long post above, the mind of Christ is the glory of His covering. He has been preparing souls to receive their true Head; praise God, He is coming IN GLORY.
This is why Christ in us, is the hope of glory, and why Paul said that what was within us, was going to swallow up the corruption, and it begins with the spirit, then the soul, and finally the body. Halleluyah!
Check it out.....
Psalms 106:20 KJV
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Romans 1:23 KJV
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
The sea of glass, then is when HIS glory has covered the woman/soul, calm because of the peace that ensues when the carnal beastly natures/flesh of the soul are no longer warring against the Spirit. PTL, THIS IS WHEN THE LION (carnal beastly natures) LAYS DOWN WITH THE LAMB! Glory! Father, we give You praise this day!
Given what has come forth in understanding in the last few posts, I'm also seeing these scriptures differently, in light of the bread that came from heaven (Christ) and the stones (things adding to our carnal beastly natures/stony hearts/souls), that need to be changed in their glory to His glory. Blessings...
Check these out now....
Matthew 4:6 KJV
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written , He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up , lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 7:9 KJV
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Revelation 2:17 KJV
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone,and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
I close this post with a tiny riddle. Was Jesus crucified near an altar? :winkgrin:
Not straining at a gnat, "He altered the course of humanity."
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.Just got back from diving with monk seals off the forbidden island of Ni'ihau, and three-weeks in Kauai, Hawai'i.
Although that was an interesting read, Whitewings (now, back to reading).
peacemaker
:cloud9: WOW peacemaker....that is awesome....would LOVE to do that....glad you were blessed with that experience. Blessings...
Quote from Cardinal "The soul already existed. He took her out of Adam's heart and made her into a visible form to show her to him. Rib is as a side, the same word there is used for Noah's ark's boards. Side, though, does not carry the same thought as we think of side; it's more like an opposite, but equal, opposite being one is spirit, one is flesh but the lesser reflects the greater. It's like looking into a body of water or a mirror. Compare this thought with image and likeness.
He poured Himself into His creation, but because it has visibility, it is as the lesser glory, just as the wife/soul is the lesser glory of the man/spirit, and the letter is the lesser glory of the Word that is eternal. This is why the creation mirrors attributes of His glory/nature. Blessings.... " end quote
The soul already existed, yes man Gen.2:7 became a living soul, man is a living soul. The "soul" is not some individual part you can just up and use. Man, became, is a living soul. The soul became, why? Because the Lord God breathed into the dust of the ground..and man BECAME A LIVING SOUL. Man is a living soul, the soul is nothing without the body, the soul is nothing with out the spirit. The soul is not an entity, it is not something that can be taken and put, and the the soul dies. The rib of man is not his soul.
:cloud9: I never said the rib was the soul, as in, LITERALLY. As a friend of mine once said, "Eat the meat and spit out the bones". Blessings...
Then spiritualy, how is it ?
Quote from: Cardinal on June 27, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
:cloud9: I never said the rib was the soul, as in, LITERALLY. As a friend of mine once said, "Eat the meat and spit out the bones". Blessings...
A boneless Prime-rib, not a sparerib.
Love it! :HeartThrob:
For me, it's not what the bone "is", it's what it represents. My ribs protect my heart and lungs, that which pumps life/blood and that which inhales and exhales the air. Ever hear of the protective nature of a mother? I guess I see in the marriage the Father guides the family, it's the mother who protects the children.
David talks about our soul being a her when he states "My soul makes "her" boast in thee Lord. The soul apparently has enough value to where the Father has paid preciously to save it.
These discussions have shed much light on what my soul is and what may happen to it once this body of flesh takes it's last breath. I still don't have any solid answers, but I do have a sense of direction from it all now.
But as for Eve, she isn't "the" soul, she represents "the" soul of man. Adam represents the spirit of man. So when it states Eve will desire after Adam, that's not an act of romance, it's God explaining the laws of this realm Adam and Eve were about to experience. The Mind will always want to be in control over the spirit. My Eve will desire after my Adam. But God has established his authority in Adam, not in Eve.
Which is to say it's my spirit that has authority over my mind. The serpent, to me is the carnality that governs this realm and deceived the mind of man. It wasn't just that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, it was that he received it from his Eve. He submitted to that which he was to subdue.
When I call it "spiritually" to me, that means I see it "inwardly". The gospel is the simple story of God creating man, man falling from God, God restoring man back to himself by sending the last man, which is Christ. That is the seed. What Scripture does, is it takes that redemptive seed and it reproduces it over and over and over again all through Scripture. It's the same story over and over, the characters may change, the setting may change, but the story stays the same.
It may be planted in different backyards. It may go through several owners through generations of time, but it still remains an Oak tree that annually produces acorns that eventually are planted and they reproduce more oak trees, after their own kind. It's how the gospel is spread across the world . . .one tree at a time.
:cloud9: Amen...
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still catching up on this thread :icon_flower: ..started with the latter...excellent tie In with the Tabernacle WW, Ty for that..Likewise PM, ref , Nat and Card... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
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Taffy-man :hithere:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 25, 2010, 08:48:36 PMWe are a triune being of spirit, soul, and body; and as you know, the tabernacle had 3 compartments. The spirit is what is saved first of the 3 parts of man. So we start with all 3 parts in the realm of the outer court.
Does the outer court still exist? Isn't the renting of the curtain symbolic? Like everyone is now allowed to go inside. Or said otherwise all are priests. Something in that line of thought.
:dontknow:
:cloud9: The WAY has been made, but we still have to appropriate it. I'm referring to the spiritual condition of where people are in their walk. It's a walk all thru the courts, experiencing the furniture pieces, the veil being rent, ect., as the Spirit makes it life in us. Blessings....
We, the church, are carved out of the rib of Jesus just as Eve was carved out of the rib of Adam.
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
[pierced his] "side"
G4125
πλευρά
pleura
plyoo-rah'
Of uncertain affinity; a rib, that is, (by extension) side: - side.
Just as God put Adam to sleep and reached into his side and from that protective element within Adam, that which covered his heart and breath, So he also put the Last Adam to rest, reached in his side and poured out his bride . . .the patterns never change.
:cloud9: No, they don't.... :thumbsup: What is old is new, and what is new is old......a paradox.
Where you at Peacemaker, I'm speaking your "language" ...... :winkgrin: :girlheart:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 03:52:06 AM
:cloud9: No, they don't.... :thumbsup: What is old is new, and what is new is old......a paradox.
Where you at Peacemaker, I'm speaking your "language" ...... :winkgrin: :girlheart:
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/2166/2166461bzb5ou3jb6.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
In reality, an expression of truth.
:happygrin: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
I bet that dog has "itching ears".
"Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." (Matthew 8:20)
The ears can only hear what the mind has, is, and will be prepared to comprehend. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says, "to him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life..." You were in Eden, the garden of God and every precious stone was your covering: On the day that you were created.
peacemaker
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
:bigGrin: :laughing7: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: