The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.

But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.

Molly replied: Well, not precisely.  The lake of fire is the second death.

Tony's reply: Hi Molly, I don't know why you say "Well, not precisely. The lake of fire is the second death" is if that disproves what I wrote above. The truth of the matter is that there really is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life. How is that "not precisely"? And how does your saying "The lake of fire is the second death" make what I said "not precisely"?

Molly wrote: ...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--Rev 21:8


So the first death didn't get the job done?  Obviously, dead is not dead, if you get my drift. lol

Tony's reply: Then you quote Revelation 21:8 and say: "Obviously, dead is not dead." No, I don't get your drift. And why do you say the first death didn't get the job done? Obviously it did because God wanted mankind to experience an actual death state due to what Adam did. Or are you saying God failed in His goal concerning bringing death into mankind?

Molly wrote: Ezekiel 37:4
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

Tony's reply: So do those bones automatically sprout ears so they can hear or is this highly figurative language?

[Molly]

The only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).

Ok, I see what you're saying.  I thought you were saying the lake of fire was the end.

I assume I am understanding correctly now that you are also saying there is nothing but unconsciousness in the second death.  Except--

Jesus likens the first death to sleep--something which we've all done.  And, sleep is not exactly unconsciousness, as people maintain a very active dream life [REM] during sleep.

As to what goes on in the lake of fire--does this relate?

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



This doesn't really sound like unconsciousness, either, since the use of the word, 'torment.'

[eaglesway]

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)

[CHB]

Hi Tony,

The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?

If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?

It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".  This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.

The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.

CHB

[eaglesway]

From my limited perspective on the LOF.....

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)


For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

Seems to me like the verses in Philippians and the the verse in Revelations 5:13 are connected with Eph 1:10(summing up all things in Christ), Eph 4:10(Christ ascending above all things in order to fill all things), 1 Cor 15:25-27(all things subjected to Christ), and likely 1 Cor 3:12-17(testing of every man's work by the fire of 'the Day')

Since the last enemy is death, and it is cast into the LOF, then whatever the LOF represents it seems to be the last stage in the "summing up of all things" into Christ that God may be "all in all", and likely plays a part for some in the ultimate bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord(which John sees in Rv 5:13).

I think the LOF is like being dipped, with no veil, into unapproachable light, until all darkness (like straw before a flame) is consumed by overwhelming glory- for God is light, God is a consuming fire, God is love. Literally, I believe the heart is won over to love as the constructs of self, separation and chaos crumble before "the radiance of the Fathers glory"(He 1:1-3). Perhaps this is the ruination(appolumi/apolea) of the adversaries on an individual level

His face shines like the sun shining in His strength(Let there be light, dawn devours night) Mt 7:12, Rv 1:16

For even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing (apollumi), in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.....
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:3-6)

......every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him(Rev 1:7)....  and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb (Rv 6:16)

"Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" and "How shall you escape Gehenna fire?", make sense to me in that light. Better to pluck out your eye than to enter Gehenna to be pierced by inscrutable light, for all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, whose eyes are as flames of fire. I think Gehenna is a symbol for the LOF.


Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting(olam/aionian) burnings?

His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
(Rev 1:14-16)


For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

I am He that tries the reins(motives) and the hearts.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
(Act 2:37)

Piercing is apart of the revelation of Jesus Christ. "Let there be Light"- piercing the chaos to separate light from darkness. "BEHOLD(let there be light, veil removal) I AM(the radiance of the Fathers glory, the image of God, the fulness of the godhead in bodily form) MAKING (transformation through beholding 2 Cor 3:18) ALL THINGS NEW(the whole creation... eagerly awaits....the glorious liberty of the sons of God).

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment(tribunal) and destruction(apolea) of ungodly men.
(2Pe 3:7)

If this particular apolea/ ruination occurs in the LOF it is an experience that the overcomers in Christ will by-pass(Rv 3:10; Rv 20:6)

Also, all those whose names are found written in the Lambs book of life- which includes all those from all the ages who, having the law of God written on their hearts, will be approved by their own conscience on the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ.

I think as "death" was the first consequence/penalty for sin, the LOF is the second death-i.e. second consequence- in that it consumes the adversaries till all be subjected who did not receive the image of God written in the secret core of their hearts.


But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:13)

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)

[Tony N]

The only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).

Ok, I see what you're saying.  I thought you were saying the lake of fire was the end.

I assume I am understanding correctly now that you are also saying there is nothing but unconsciousness in the second death.  Except--

Jesus likens the first death to sleep--something which we've all done.  And, sleep is not exactly unconsciousness, as people maintain a very active dream life [REM] during sleep.

As to what goes on in the lake of fire--does this relate?

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



This doesn't really sound like unconsciousness, either, since the use of the word, 'torment.'

Hi Molly, you are correct it doesn't sound like unconsciousness if you go only by that verse alone. If you take all the verses related to the destruction of Babylon which is destroyed in a day, then we see they are tormented that day and that day only as their demise is met by fire and brimstone like Sodom and Gomorrah's fate. They are not in the lake of fire at that point in time. They have not been brought before the great white throne yet. It is after the GWT they are throne into the lake of fire whch is death.
Jesus likens death to sleep.

DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP

     There are two kinds of figures used in comparing death with
sleep. The one we have been considering is a metaphor, for the
dead are said to {be} sleeping. How much more vivid is this than
to use a simile and say merely that death is like sleep! Yet
there is even a bolder figure. It is called "implication." Death
is not said to be like sleep as in the simile, or to be sleep
as in the metaphor, but it is implied when the dead are
roused.* A.E. Knoch

The Lord said Lazarus was asleep but he was dead four days and stunk.
In what way was he asleep? Was he dreaming? No. He was brain dead.

A. E. Knoch continues:
"THE "REPOSE" OF DEATH

     "The term koimaoo, repose, which is used of Lazarus, is a
figure of death in fourteen out of its eighteen occurrences. The
bodies of saints which were roused after our Lord's resurrection
(Matt.27:52), Lazarus (John 11:11), Stephen (Acts 7:60), David
(Acts 13:36), the husband (1 Cor.7:39), the careless Corinthians
(1 Cor.11:30), the witnesses of His resurrection (1 Cor.15:6),
the dead saints (1 Cor.15:18,20,51; 1 Thess.4:13,14, 15), and the
patriarchs (2 Peter 3:4)--in all these passages the reference is
not to such repose as is enjoyed in literal sleep, but to the
repose of death.

     "This figure, of reposing in death, is varied somewhat in
the Hebrew Scriptures, yet it is sufficiently close for the A.V.
to have the phrase, "And...slept with his fathers" (2 Kings
8:24; 10:35; 13:9,13; 14:16,29; 15:7,22,38; 16:20; 21:18; 24:6,
etc.). The Hebrew word used

p137                                           Repose Means Sleep

in these passages is shkb, and it means Lie. In the Septuagint,
it is translated by means of the Greek word which we have rendered
repose. The phrase of the Hebrew should read, "And...  lies with
his fathers." While it primarily means to lie down (1 Sam.3:5,6,
9), the actual Hebrew word for sleep shne is used as though
parallel to lie down shkd (See Psa,3:5; Prov.6:10; 24: 33).

    " In the Greek, our Lord could say, "Lazarus, our friend, has
found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of
sleep." And the disciples demurred, thinking that it would be a
pity to wake him out of the repose of sleep, which is so
beneficial in case of sickness. The soldiers assigned to guard the
tomb would have no excuse at all for allowing the Lord's body to
be stolen while they were resting. They must have meant while
they were reposing in sleep, and so the A.V. translators have
rendered it "while (they) slept" (Matt.28:13). When Jesus
returned from His place of prayer, He found His weary disciples
reposing for sorrow, and He asked them, "Why are you {drowsing}"
(Luke 22:46)? The remaining occurrence (Acts 12:6) proves
conclusively that we must take "repose" in the sense of sleep.
Peter's repose was broken when the messenger ("angel") awoke or
roused him.

     "From these facts we are sure that sleep is a picture of
death. Metaphorically, death is said to be sleep, and, by
implication, awakening out of the oblivion of sleep is transferred
to the death state."

[Tony N]

Hi Tony,

The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?

The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.

If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?

I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?

It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".  This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.

Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?

The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.

CHB

My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.

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[CHB]

In my above post I said this:

"It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".  This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life".

I should have added that the lake of fire is not death but an awakening to spiritual life. It is a place where all literal death is destroyed and the spiritual dead are awakened to a new spiritual life, where they all will be in Christ.  

If you compare (Rev. 21:8) with (1Cor. 6:9)  (Gal. 5:19)  (Eph. 5:5), it sounds like God is going to cleanse everyone and make them perfect through the lake of fire.

(Eph. 5:26-27) That he might SANCTIFY AND CLEANSE IT WITH THE WASHING OF WATER {could this be a lake}BY THE WORD {and this fire}. (Jer.

(Verse 27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, NOT HAVING SPOT OR WRINKLE, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

CHB

[Tony N]

CHB, you call the lake of fire "spiritual life." The bible calls the lake of fire death. Why should I believe you?

Even in the Bible the metaphorical "dead," the ones dead to God, are not having a "spiritual life."

Let's stay with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. You can't make "death" to be "spiritual life."

[CHB]

Hi Tony,

The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?

The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.

Tony are you saying, God is going to raise people from the dead, burn them up, then raise them again? When they are raised a second time what happens?     

Tony, why would God bring people back to life just to burn them, wouldn't it be better to teach them?

If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?

I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?

The spiritual death I am talking about is being dead to sin and alive in Christ. I feel I am at this point now. If they are in Christ how could they be oblivious to him?

It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".  This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.

Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?

I did say that the lake of fire will be active till the end. Well, my idea of a first death is when we literally die and are buried in the ground. The way I understand this is, at the end physical death will be destroyed and those who are spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ.

The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.

CHB

My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.

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[eaglesway]

Spiritual fire is light. It burns/consumes/destroys darkness.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(1Co 3:13)

each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident(expose it), for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."
(1Co 3:13)CLV

Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
(2Pe 3:7)


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheon- elementary principles ) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)



But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:13)




"I think the LOF is like being dipped, with no veil, into unapproachable light, until all darkness (like straw before a flame) is consumed by overwhelming glory- for God is light, God is a consuming fire, God is love. Literally, I believe the heart is won over to love as the constructs of self, separation and chaos crumble before "the radiance of the Fathers glory"(He 1:1-3).

[peacemaker]

Peacemaker You quote: "Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory" as if that settles the whole issue.

For me, it does. Unless, your perception is that of a literal thousand year reign in which there will be a second resurr-exit from a second literal death. Use a good dictionary, and you may find a subtle difference or distinction in expression of "again" as meaning "anew" without the concept of repetition.

"When one is raised to life; it destroys the elements of death."

[Tony N]

Hi Tony,

The wages of sin is death. I would say this is the first death, a literal death. Why would there be a need for a second literal death?

Tony's reply: The reason there is a need for a second death is first you have to bring the dead back to life to be judged before the great white throne. They are judged then. After that, God doesn't need a bunch of dead, disease inducing cadavers messing up His new earth so He sends them all to the crematorium to be disposed of until death is abolished.

CHB replied: Tony are you saying, God is going to raise people from the dead, burn them up, then raise them again? When they are raised a second time what happens?   
  Tony, why would God bring people back to life just to burn them, wouldn't it be better to teach them?

Tony's reply: Who said it is "just to burn them"? Does John's revelation say that? They will be resurrected to stand before the great white throne.
They will be judged according to their acts. The judgment is to set them right.
They will be cast into their second death.

Once Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away then death is abolished they will come out of death alive, and God will be All in all finally.

You ask wouldn't it be better to teach them? No, not at this point in time. You can't teach a dead man much anyway, can you? Obviously this is what they need for that time of their lives to enter death again. Why not ask "Why does God let all mankind go into the first death? Wouldn't it be better to teach them?"

CHB wrote: If we have a literal birth and a spiritual birth, don't you think that a literal death and a spiritual death would make more sense than two literal deaths? What would the second literal death accomplish that the first one didn't?

I would ask, what good would it do to those standing before the great white throne if they only enter into a "spiritual death" (your words)? They would be oblivious to God and would continue to avoid Him and be sinners. What good would that be for them?

CHB replied: The spiritual death I am talking about is being dead to sin and alive in Christ. I feel I am at this point now. If they are in Christ how could they be oblivious to him?

Tony's reply: Was the first death a being dead to sin? No. It was dead to God and dead to life. When the dead are raised to stand before the great white throne are they all of the earth who were "dead to sin"? No. So the lake of fire is not being dead to sin. The second death has to be like the first death. You can't make the second death stand for something other than what it is. It is already the answer to what the lake of fire is.

CHB wrote: It says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire".  This death and hell are already dead, so the lake of fire will destroy death and the grave. This sounds to me like death is destroyed and so there will only be life. If this is true the lake of fire is not death but life.

Please re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Death is not abolished until all sovereignty, authority and power are done away and Christ quits reigning. In Revelation sovereignty, authority and power are still in force and Christ is still reigning. So death can't be destroyed. You can't pick up death and physically cast it into a second death. When did death die the first death? See the problems with your ideas?

CHB replied: I did say that the lake of fire will be active till the end. Well, my idea of a first death is when we literally die and are buried in the ground. The way I understand this is, at the end physical death will be destroyed and those who are spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ.

Tony's reply:
O.K. The Bible doesn't say "the spiritually dead will be made alive in Christ." The bible never puts "spiritual" with "death." But I think I know what you mean.

CHB wrote: The only logic conclusion I can come to is, The lake of fire is now, or this life and will continue right through till the end when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". The lake of fire is life, a spiritual life.

CHB

Tony's reply: My logical conclusion is obviously different from yours.
The Bible says the lake of fire takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ ends. That is yet future so it can't be now.

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[CHB]

Hi Tony,

Am just trying to get to the truth of things, so bear with me here please.

Ok, let me start here and try to figure out just what is being said.

5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.
6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.
7 And whenever the thousand years should be finished

I am seeing in the above verses that "the rest of the dead" are those who were not in the first resurrection. "The rest of the dead" do not live again until the thousand years are finished.

12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The way I understand these verses:

(Verse 12) What I see here is, the dead small and great are the spiritually dead because they are standing before God and are judged out of the books which I believe are the books of the LAW because they are judged according to their WORKS. I am going to be judged according to the works of Christ. The book of life I think is Christ. 

(Verse 13) Seems to be the literally dead and they were also judged according to their WORKS.

(Verse 14) Now death, spiritually dead/physically dead and the unseen {grave} are cast into the lof. You see, how can the grave be cast into a lake of fire?  It seems as if this lof is just a symbol of how death will be destroyed. How can it be a literal fire?

(Verse 15) Those who are not dead in Christ will be cast into the lof. "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me" (Gal. 2:19-20).

Your view please.

CHB

[CHB]

CHB, you call the lake of fire "spiritual life." The bible calls the lake of fire death. Why should I believe you?

Even in the Bible the metaphorical "dead," the ones dead to God, are not having a "spiritual life."

Let's stay with what the Bible calls the lake of fire. You can't make "death" to be "spiritual life."

Hi Tony,

Actually the Bible doesn't say the lof is "death". It says (Rev. 20:14) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".  (Rev. 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 

Let me see if I can explain this so it makes sense.

Let's say, I will be raised to life in my unrepentent, fearful, and unbelieving and all the rest, state of being. Wouldn't you say I was dead physically, before I was raised and spiritually dead as well? Wouldn't you consider me dead before I was thrown in the lof? If the lof is what I believe it is, you have your answer in (1 Cor.13:15) as to what is going to happen to me.  It is all the works above that will be burned up, not me. The lof will make me become spiritually alive because all of my works will be burned up.

Does this make any sense to anyone??   :happy3:

CHB

[eaglesway]

I see it like this (a limited outline)

First resurrection - overcomers in Christ, at the seventh(last) trumpet, at the commencement of the 1000 years, Resurrection of reward Paul was seeking to attain to. Over these the second death(krisis, appolumi) has no power.

Second resurrection - everybody else from all the ages, Great White Throne(hour of trial to come upon all who dwell on the earth), judged by the secrets of their hearts, some welcomed into the joy of their Lord, some saved as passing through fire(light of day 1 Cor 3:15) losing all their works and any accompanying reward, some sent to the LOF(some of those for few stripes, some for many)

An example of one who might be saved as passing through the fire- Lot(he lost all his works but his soul was saved when Sodom and Gomorrah was judged..... 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, John 15:6, Rev 3:14-21)

An example of an overcomer- Abraham(yielded his body in Isaac, his hearts desire, as a living sacrifice and gained the whole world..... Romans 12:1-3, Phil 3:8-15, James 1:12 Rev 2:10)

Lot was righteous but not an overcomer, a foolish virgin with an empty vessel, escaped by reason of Abraham's intercession.


We see through a glass darkly....   :o)

Only God can judge- by the secrets of our hearts, through Jesus of the flaming eyes, who tries the reins and hearts and rewards us according to our deeds...."I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink".

[jabcat]

I like this post John.

[WhiteWings]

Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia

According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."

According to another law of language you first need to define what is going to die.
Depending on the answer Jabcat's quote doesn't break 'your' law.
If the fire only burns the chaff and leaves the wheat untouched or if the dross is removed while the gold remains, the fire purifies like a refiners fire by "second death of bad elements".

[WhiteWings]

Does this make any sense to anyone??   :happy3:

Yes.

Let's say, I will be raised to life in my unrepentent, fearful, and unbelieving and all the rest, state of being. Wouldn't you say I was dead physically, before I was raised and spiritually dead as well? Wouldn't you consider me dead before I was thrown in the lof? If the lof is what I believe it is, you have your answer in (1 Cor.13:15) as to what is going to happen to me.  It is all the works above that will be burned up, not me. The lof will make me become spiritually alive because all of my works will be burned up.

It's a bit like: God hates sin but not the sinner.
So (perhaps) LoF kills sin but not the sinner.
Is taht what you mean CHB?

[Tony N]

Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia

According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."

According to another law of language you first need to define what is going to die.
Depending on the answer Jabcat's quote doesn't break 'your' law.
If the fire only burns the chaff and leaves the wheat untouched or if the dross is removed while the gold remains, the fire purifies like a refiners fire by "second death of bad elements".

Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.

Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.

Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.

If the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?

The fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.

[Molly]

Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.

Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.



Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

If the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?

Hebrews 11:35
... and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

[WhiteWings]

Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.

Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.

Because it's a different death.

Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.

What's your point? Jesus was just discussing farming techniques?

If the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?

Who said the first death did that? Not me.

The fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.

You speak of facts while the only thing you seem to do is use your own conclusion as proof.

[micah7:9]

I like this post John.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Thanx jab, micah, I know we are all striving towards the unity of the faith. Someday Jesus, our Head, will bring us, His body, to a mature man  :thumbsup:

[Tony N]

Did the first death for mankind burn the chaff and leave the wheat untouched? No.

Did the first death for mankind remove the dross and only gold remained? No.

WW replied: Because it's a different death.

Not really. the 2nd death is like the 1st death in that it is a complete cessation of life.

Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.

WW replied: What's your point? Jesus was just discussing farming techniques?

Someone posted about the burning of the chaff as if that is the lake of fire.. What's my point? My point is: Did Jesus ever say that the burning of the chaff was a death let alone a second death? No.

If the first death did all that, why the need for a second death?

WW replied Who said the first death did that? Not me.

Then it doesn't apply to you, only to those who said so.

The fact remains: The first death is a complete cessation of life. Therefore the second death must be a complete cessation of life.

WW replied: You speak of facts while the only thing you seem to do is use your own conclusion as proof.

My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".

Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.

Is the 2nd day not a 24 hour day?
Is the 2nd sheet of the temple not a sheet?
Is the 2nd epistle not an epistle?
Is the 2nd hour not an hour?
``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.
Was the second ``ward" or jail not a ward because it was second (Acts 12:10)? And the second Man, is He not a Man just as certainly as the first man, Adam (1 Cor.15: 47)? And is not the second covenant (Heb.8:7) a covenant at all? And the second ``veil" or curtain (Heb.9:3), was it not a veil? Peter's second epistle (2 Peter 3:1), the second animal (Rev.4:7), the second seal (Rev.11:14), the second foundation (Rev.21:19)--all of these are precisely what they are said to be in spite of the fact that they are not the first of their kind. Why, then, should the second death (Rev.2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8) be anything other than death? This is the divine definition of the lake of fire.