The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.

Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.

When He comes LIKE fuller's soap, that does not mean He is the soap or the fuller but maybe He is like  that soap in that His presence will clean away the filth.

I thought John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible was interesting on the Fuller's or launderer's soap:

for he is like a refiner's fire; partly by the ministry of the word, compared to fire, Jer_23:29 separating pure doctrines from ones of dross; and partly by his fiery dispensations and judgments on the wicked Jews, when he distinguished and saved his own people from that untoward generation, and destroyed them:

and like fuller's soap; or "fuller's herb", as the Septuagint and Vulgate Latin versions render it, and Jarchi interprets it: and so R. Jonah (s) interprets it of an herb which fullers use: and in the Misna (t) this is one of the seven things used to take out spots, namely, "borith", the word here used; and which Maimonides (u) says is a plant known by the name of "algasul" and "gazul" in the Arabic language: it signifies something by which filth is washed away; and so Bartenora (w) says it is a plant which purifies and cleanses; and Jerom (x) relates that this herb grows in Palestine, in moist and green places, and has the same virtue as nitre to take away filth; agreeably to which some other versions render it "fuller's weed", or "soap weed" (y). The Syriac version is,

"as sulphur that makes white;''

and fullers, with the Romans, were wont to make use of that along with chalk to take out spots; and so Pliny (z) speaks of a kind of sulphur which fullers make use of. A metaphor signifying the same thing as before, the removing of spotted doctrines or spotted persons, the one by the preaching of the Gospel, the other by awful judgments, as spots in garments are removed by the fuller's herb or soap.

[Beloved Servant]

I have no intentions of degrading the written word . . .if that's what's bringing caution to others, my most humble apologies.  My intent is to de-emphasize the literal application and pursue the spiritual . . this is all I've been trying to share from the beginning.  I'm not saying eliminate the literal, there "is" literal meaning there, but the meat of the matter is in the spiritual revelation that lies beneath . . .but to say the Bible is worth little is to become ignorant to all of it.  It's "through" reading the words that I feel we are led to the depths of the spirit so reading is still just as important as it ever was.

I do believe God's word divides soul from flesh . .just not always in the form of the "Bible".  I believe truth is obviously there, but when our minds are governing our hearts, even the Bible becomes distorted in our understanding.  There's no condemnation, there are still things engrained in me that come to the surface that I myself, must be willing to let go of for change to come and make the burden of trying to "understand" it all even lighter.

.
I believe just as you quoted the Word of God is for, and I paste . . .rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.  To me, that's saying the rebuking, correcting and training is to be directed to my "inward" man.  I'm to apply it to "me" rather than pitch it on to other people.  So that THE MAN (corporate man) may be thoroughly equipped. 

Otherwise, if I'm to use the Bible to reproof you, then it becomes more about making others submit to my standards and I turn truth back into religion all over again.

WHERE you are in the story will determine WHAT you perceive from it.

[eaglesway]

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
(Isa 28:9-13)

[WhiteWings]

I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.

Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.

When He comes LIKE fuller's soap, that does not mean He is the soap or the fuller but maybe He is like  that soap in that His presence will clean away the filth.

Yes, like. "same function" as I wrote.
Now we finally got that settled the next step.... Is there only a something/someone that is like the soap? Or is there also a person that uses that something/someone?

The Lamb perhaps.....

^KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

[WhiteWings]

thus the many different POVs and understandings - and I don't claim to have the best handle on it.

James, it's not about views. We don't agree on them. That's clear from previous posts. The way I see it Tony doesn't even understand what I'm trying to say/ask in my last few posts. Without understanding eachother stricktly speaking we can't know if our POVs clash.
If I correctly understand Tony's question to you, he asks you if you can translate my view into English :bgdance:

Maybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other.  Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin: 

Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:

[Molly]

Fuller's soap 
Fulling or tucking or walking ("waulking" in Scotland) is a step in woollen clothmaking which involves the cleansing of cloth (particularly wool) to eliminate oils, dirt, and other impurities, and making it thicker. The worker who does the job is a fuller, tucker, or walker.



Fuller's soap
        (Heb. borith mekabbeshim, i.e., "alkali of those treading
        cloth"). Mention is made (Prov. 25:20; Jer. 2:22) of nitre and
        also (Mal. 3:2) of soap (Heb. borith) used by the fuller in his
        operations. Nitre is found in Syria, and vegetable alkali was
        obtained from the ashes of certain plants. (See SOAP ¯T0003467.)



Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[jabcat]

If I correctly understand Tony's question to you, he asks you if you can translate my view into English :bgdance:

Maybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other.  Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin: 

Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:

http://www.freetranslation.com/

[WhiteWings]

Yes Molly.
Now my thought is that LoF is that fullars soap. Oops "looks like" sorry TonyN :-)
Jesus and the angels are watching for the people/gold to be tested/tormented in LoF.
For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.
Also: the robes/gold is aware it's being processed.
IMO those verses tell us a bit about what LoF is like. It's function.

[Molly]

For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.

So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers?  Because that happens in the blink of an eye.

[WhiteWings]

For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.

So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers?  Because that happens in the blink of an eye.

Perhaps yes. Other possibility is that for the saints it's a one step process. For the sinner a 2 step process.
I don't have it all clear for myself. It's just then everytime I think of LoF I get a strong feeling all those verses are part of the LoF story. Even if they can also placed in other literal/historical context.
Proof? Well that's what I want to talk about. Although my post may look like a statement it's more a thought mixed with question.....

[Tony N]

Yesterday my doctor told me I have only 80 year to live. So I fear not :winkgrin:

Yesterday I went to my doctor and he said he has good news and bad news.

I asked, what's the good news?
He said: You have 24 hours to live.
I asked: What's the bad news?
He said: That was yesterday but I couldn't get hold of you.

[Nathan]

For me it desribes a process that takes some time. Not a blink of an eye.

So are you thinking that when Paul says we shall all be changed, he's only referring to the saints, the overcomers?  Because that happens in the blink of an eye.

Perhaps yes. Other possibility is that for the saints it's a one step process. For the sinner a 2 step process.
I don't have it all clear for myself. It's just then everytime I thing of LoF I get a strong feeling all those verse are part of the LoF story. Even if they can also placed in other literal/historical context.
Proof? Well that's what I want to talk about. Although my post may look like a statement it's more a thought mixed with question.....

For me, the spiritual cleansing is instantaneous, but the outward changing is more of a process.  I have to retrain my mind how to think, what to let go of and what to embrace.  Many things get embraced due to habitual thinking.  In the spirit, it's all finished.  In the flesh, time governs the process.

[Tony N]

If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?

[thinktank]

If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?


Before that abolishment of death, during the 1000 year millenium peace the people only live to a ripe old age over 100

There is a scripture that says anyone who does not live to a ripe old age of over 100 is accounted accursed

But after death is abolished and Satan is cast into the lake of fire the people of the nations of the Earth are allowed to enter the new Jerusalem the heavenly city, the new home of the saints. Inside this place is the tree of life that allows people to live forever. This is the same type of tree of life that Adam and Eve had access to in the garden of Eve.

Death will probably still exist for animals, insects, etc (but maybe not, because there are also leaves on the tree of life that are there for the healing of the nations) and also any nation that does not come to New Jerusalem to honour the king will be cut off from the city. Revelation also says that let the unrighteous be unrighteous still let the righteous be righteous still.

Thieves, liars, etc etc, will not be allowed the enter the heavenly city, for nothing shall enterin that defileth.

Its important to note that new Jerusalem is not Earthly Jerusalem, but it is from heaven and the lamb himself is in the midst of it.

[WhiteWings]

Before that abolishment of death, during the 1000 year millenium peace the people only live to a ripe old age over 100

There is a scripture that says anyone who does not live to a ripe old age of over 100 is accounted accursed

This one TT?
^KJVIsa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

^NETIsa 65:20 NET  Isaiah 65:20 Never again will one of her infants live just a few days or an old man die before his time. Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred, anyone who fails to reach the age of a hundred will be considered cursed.

The way I read it both saint and sinner will die in the 1000 years reign.
Sinners before 100 years of age. Saints at a later age.


/edit I'm quite sure ther is something similar in Revelation; but I can't find it right now.

[thinktank]

That's exactly it whitewings  :happygrin:

Good work  :bgdance:

You'll make a great wingman yet , :thumbsup:

Take out those bandits!

[Nathan]

The one thing that seems to still be getting overlooked is this is not pertaining to literal/natural experiences . . .the earth is now under the curse due to the fall of Adam.  It's not  . . .okay, make sure I do say that this is not fact, just how I'm seeing it . .. but this earth is not the same earth when all things are complete in the Father in the sense that the "natural" realm will no longer be our dominant existence.  The earth will still exist, but it will return back to it's original order once the curse is lifted IN THE NATURAL REALM of things.

In the spirit, all things are complete.  In the natural, everything is still governed by time.  It is bound by the natural laws of order.  But in the end, there IS no death because death is the evidence of sin.  In the spirit, there is no sin nor is there death.  Which is why we are not only called to walk in the spirit, but we're given the abiltiy to do so as well.

In this earth, we're still trying to reason spiritual things with natural minds.  We can't imagine what it would be like with death to be obsolete.  We can't imagine life without temptation.  We can't imagine life without sin in one form or another.  We can't imagine every individual in the earth to be one with the Father.  Our minds just can't fathom the infinity of God's nature and design.  But our spirit can, but we can only see by faith, not by anything connected with natural means.

[thinktank]

Whitewings I disagree with you that saints will die during the 1000 years of peace.

Paul says we shall all be changed in a twinkling of an eye. Mortal swallowed up in immortality, etc etc

The way I see it, there will be three classes of people. The saints who are called and chosen the royal priesthood the bride of Christ: and the remnant of people who are still alive after the great tribulation, who the saints will rule over during the 1000 year peace, these people get to live over a hundred, and finally the dead who have not known Christ in this time dispensation of satans dominion, who are resurected at the great white throne judgement and will be judged according to their works and if worthy they will be able to enter heavenly Jerusalem and eat the tree of life.

I am only certain about the saints being made immortal during this dispensation, the rest I said does seem to fit with scripture, but there are other interpretations of how one can look at the great white throne judgement.

[Nathan]

I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything.  I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation.  I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ.  They go hand in hand.

So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit.  It's where God resides.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth.  Just as all  Scripture reflects the same principle

[CHB]

If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?

Hi Tony,

Where do you see that the LOF doesn't exist right up to the end?
As long as life and death exist wouldn't the LOF exist as well?

CHB

[Tony N]

If death is abolished at the lake of fire then how, according to Paul, is death still around beyond John's revelation?

Hi Tony,

Where do you see that the LOF doesn't exist right up to the end?
As long as life and death exist wouldn't the LOF exist as well?

CHB

Yes, CHB, as long as life and death exist the LoF exists.
Your first question should be rephrased:

"Where do you see that the LOF exists right up to the end?"

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 shows it existing up to the consummation which I believe is the consummation of the eons.

The only death left to be abolished would have to be the second death according to 1 Corinthians 15:22-26. That abolishment comes after John's Revelation.
In John's revelation Jesus is still reigning as well as those with Him are reigning and there are still kings and sovereignties, authorities and power in John's revelation.

Paul sees the day when all those end and then death is abolished. So death can't be abolished at the end of the 1000 years nor on the new earth prior to the consummation.

[Cardinal]

I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything.  I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation.  I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ.  They go hand in hand.

So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit.  It's where God resides.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth.  Just as all  Scripture reflects the same principle

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

I see this referenced frequently and I just want to put out there that I'm not one that sees the thousand year issue as a literal thousand year anything.  I beleive it's symbolic as is all of Revelation.  I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ coincides with the tabernacle of Moses in that it was a type and shadow of the nature of Christ where as John recieved the Revelation "of" Jesus Christ.  They go hand in hand.

So for me, the thousand years signifies the Holy of Holies, it's not a literal span of time, but it's a realm of the spirit.  It's where God resides.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . . .which is a natural sign pointing to a spiritual truth.  Just as all  Scripture reflects the same principle

The book of revelation does have symbolic symbols, but it is not a highly symbolic book that no one can understand it. Some of the things pointed in it do require a great amount of study, but other things are to be read as it is. E.g John of Patmos is not a fictional character, he is real. The letters he wrote are real and they were sent in history, but yet the letters are also for the end time church, which clearly can be seen due to the word great tribulation within the letters. This word 'great tribulation' was used by Jesus to describe the end times. The book of Ezekiel is also a book that described events during the time of babylon and also it is written in mind for the end times and is a complimentary study with the book of revelation.
When it comes to the end times the books to study are the book of Daniel, probably the best to study for a newbie, the book of revelation, the book of Ezekiel (Even harder to understand than revelation, due to God using old testament place names to describe modern day nations). the book of Isiah has some prophecies and also the gospels of Jesus Christ, especially the book of Mathew.

Because of the huge amount of detail in revelation the author described events using symbols, these symbols are coded and found throughout the bible, you've heard the phrase the bible interprets the bible.
So the lamb of God that opens the books is obviously, Jesus Christ.
John the baptist said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
I make an example of the lamb symbol because it is the easiest. The other symbols take more study, but if one takes a look at the dragon is revelation 12, one can see that this is describing Satan.
If one denies that John was not in heaven on the lords day, then one is denying the scriptures and end up making up all kinds of conclusions based on mans ways not Gods. e.g some people think, the dragon is a representative of China, for that is their national symbol, but now they are relying on man made symbols to interpret, Gods symbols. Some might say the dragon represents, The devil cult (I made that up) because this cult has a dragon symbol and when the people meet they, place their fingers on top of their heads like a devil. By relying on methods like these, people are coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas. The book of revelation was supposed to be written to help the saints, not confuse them. God is not the author of confusion, but has written all things for good.

And one more thing the identity of the antichrist and various evil organizations are described in the book of revelation, this makes it of most importance that only spirit filled saints can understand this book, or otherwise perhaps the evil would have banned the book.

You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent but have made known your mysteries unto the meek and lowly.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin'  :msealed:  Blessings...

[Tony N]

:cloud9: Since it's literal to some, anybody ever notice how John was told to take the messages to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. How exactly does a man take a message to an angel? I'm just sayin'  :msealed:  Blessings...

The word "angelos" is translated "messenger" in the Concordant Version and can either be a messenger of heavenly origin or of earthly origin. Humans are often called "messengers" too.

In Matthew 11:10  John the Baptist (not Southern Baptist) is called a messenger.