The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[WhiteWings]

I agree with that.  Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.

Then how long before the thousand year the destruction of Babylon takes place?
^YLTRev 14:11 Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name

[Molly]

PS the Greek word for 'city' has the connotation of a walled fortress as one would need in time of warfare--Could we intuit that these cities will no longer be needed under the rule of Christ?


"city"

G4172
πόλις
polis
pol'-is
Probably from the same as G4171, or perhaps from G4183; a town (properly with walls, of greater or less size): - city.


G4171
πόλεμος
polēmos
pol'-em-os
From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war.


Numbers 14:8
If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.


Deuteronomy 11:9
And that ye may prolong your days in the land, which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give unto them and to their seed, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

11But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:

12A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

[Tony N]

I agree with that.  Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.

I'm sorry. I was foolish enough to believe the Bible called Babylon a city even though it did not call it the world system. You must be right in spite of what the bible says.

[Molly]

I agree with that.  Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.

I'm sorry. I was foolish enough to believe the Bible called Babylon a city even though it did not call it the world system. You must be right in spite of what the bible says.

well, the book of Daniel and the real Babylon unlocked it for me.

Daniel, of course, was literally taken into Babylon into captivity.

But he could also see God's plan in a dream.  Daniel sees an image of a man.

31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

--Daniel 2

The great image has a head of gold which represents Babylon--so now we are talking about a man made system which is driven by the mind of Babylon, and it's based on the worship of gold, mammon, false gods.  This is a mind set, a system forced on the whole world today, supported by war and with feet of clay. but we have the mind of Christ,

These are secrets, mysteries --


28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

--Dan 2

[Beloved Servant]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

[Molly]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

5And he said,....put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

--Ex 3

[WhiteWings]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

HERE  :laughing7:

[Tony N]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is  Jerusalem above as Paul states.

[Pierac]

What do you see? ....  This would really save me and I'm sure a few others from having to search past post, and yet... give you to opportunity to put it all together in one single post! Here is your time bro... Post your entire view in a single post!!!  Let your light shine brother, show me what you see!  :thumbsup:


It is really simple. I will try to  condense it all.
Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death. Death is the absence of life. So those cast into the second death are cast into the absence of life.

It does not say that those not found in the scroll of life will live.

The most logical conclusion one can make from "those not found in the scroll of life" is that such ones will not be living for the duration of that new earth age.

Those found in the scroll of life will be living.

Therefore, the second death is not a second life.
The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.

The second death is not a second dying.
The lake of fire is the absence of life.

The second death is called second  because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts. They are judged and then cast into the second such death.

The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.

The lake of fire is not about wheat and chaff. That is a wholly other matter completely different from the second death.

The lake of fire is not about "everyone will be salted with fire" (as if that means everyone ever born will be cast into the LoF). The context of that statement was Christ teaching his disciples concerning those who offend in the kingdom He will be setting up and who commit bad enough things which will cause them to be cast into the fires of Gehenna. The "everyone" ("one" is in lightfact in the CLNT) is the "every" of the context. Every person not controlling their eyes, hands and feet as to what they do improperly will have their dead bodies destroyed by the fires of Gehenna. That is what "salted with fire" means.
Gehenna is not the lake of fire. It comes 1000 years prior to the lake of fire.

The phrase "Our God is a consuming fire" has nothing to do with Gehenna or the lake of fire. It was written to the Hebrews concerning "Heb 12:28 Wherefore, accepting an unshakable kingdom, we may have grace through which we may be offering divine service in a way well pleasing to God, with piety and dread,
Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire."

The writer of Hebrews was talking about the giving of the law on the mountain with fire and threats if anyone came near the mountain. God is not the second death. The Jews are to serve Him with piety and dread.

The phrase "fire and sulphur" (some translations say "brimstone") has nothing to do with making a person acceptable to God for those cast into the absence of life. It has everything to do with cleansing the earth, the new earth, of evil people.

The phrase "yet they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire" has to do with the judgment of the saints as to how they built on the foundation. If they built improperly with teachings like wood, hay and stubble, (those things just stand for bad teaching) then those works will be burned up. Not the parts of the saint will be burned up but their bad works. Yet, the apostle says, they will be saved, yet thus AS through fire. That is not saying they will be saved through fire but will be saved as if it were through a fire. That has nothing to do with the lake of fire and nothing to do with death.

One Corinthians fifteen verses twenty through twenty-eight is all about vivification and God's grand goal of being All in all.
In verse 1Corinthians 15:26 it says: "The last enemy is being abolished: death." If the second death is some sort of life, then is the last enemy "life"? The last enemy is the absence of life. That death is what is keeping people from God being All in all. Once that death is done away after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is done away then death is abolished. This proves death is not abolished in the book of Revelation.

If the second death makes people acceptable to God then it is a friend and not an enemy. The Bible calls it an enemy. It is an enemy because it cuts people off from God. Everyone wants to make death a friend. But it is an enemy.

The only way those evil people will be changed is when they are resurrected out of the absence of life, put on immortality and incorruption and God is All in them. This is all due to what Christ accomplished for them. God will then be their Father and they His loving children.

I don't see a problem with this view? Good as any, better than most.

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is  Jerusalem above as Paul states.

Where in the Bible does it say that New Jerusalem will land on the earth?

[Pierac]

The New City Jerusalem will land on the earth and people will live in it.

In what country will this happen?

Probably West Virginia because John Denver said it was almost heaven. :laughing7:
But joking aside, I would opt for Israel and surrounding area since Jerusalem is in Israel. And presently there is  Jerusalem above as Paul states.

Where in the Bible does it say that New Jerusalem will land on the earth?

Rev 3:12  'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Rev 21:2   And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Heaven refers to the sky, at to where the birds fly? There is no speaking  of  the 2nd heaven or third heaven as Paul spoke.  So if the new Jerusalem comes down from the sky (out of heaven) , just where do you think it will desend?  Did you not hear Jesus...  Mat 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.  


Paul

[Beloved Servant]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.

[jabcat]

Good point, David.

To all;  Isn't much of this discussion, including the comments on Mr. Eby's POV - and now this, the New Jerusalem - back to the "spiritual vs. literal" discussion?  Seems some have an extremely literal view, some an extremely spiritual one, while some see it a mixture of both (me).  And I believe much of the time there's a ditch on either side.   :2c:

Example - what does death mean - spiritual, physical, or both;  what is Babylon - a literal city, or symbolic of a system, or both;  what is New Jerusalem - a literal city, or a spiritual renewal/restoration, the "place" where the redeemed "dwell", or both.   I believe many things have both a literal, and then a spiritual fulfillment - and perhaps sometimes, even both together.  

My opinion/understanding....  

[Tony N]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.

John saw the new city Jerusalem decending out of heaven. What do you think? Do you think it floats 2 feet off the ground?

It says the kings of the earth carry their glory into it. Do they float up to the sky or do they carry while walking on the ground, their glory into it?

Rev 21:24 And the nations shall be walking by means of its light, and the kings of the earth are carrying their glory into it."

Come on beloved servant, let's try to keep it real.  :dontknow:

[Beloved Servant]

You missed the point.
Refer to jabcat's post above yours.

[Tony N]

You missed the point.
Refer to jabcat's post above yours.

I think the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head  :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

I don't get the joke, please explain yourself. Thanks.

[Molly]

It says the kings of the earth carry their glory into it. Do they float up to the sky or do they carry while walking on the ground, their glory into it?

The kings of the earth--that's us.  :Sparkletooth:

And, their glory--that would be him.

[WhiteWings]

I agree with that.  Babylon--the world system-- will be destroyed before the thousand year reign of Christ from the new Jerusalem [since they are mutually exclusive], IMO.

Then how long before the thousand year the destruction of Babylon takes place?
^YLTRev 14:11 Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name

?

[WhiteWings]

I believe many things have both a literal, and then a spiritual fulfillment - and perhaps sometimes, even both together.

That's what I believe. Many literal things like parables and events happend/will happen both literally and spiritually. I also believe that we can get a little insight in what the spiritual event is like when compare the words to describe the spiritual event with the literal event.

[Tony N]

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2010, 08:06:28 PM
It says nothing about landing on the earth.

I think the new city Jerusalem flew right over your head   :laughing7:

I don't get the joke, please explain yourself. Thanks.

Well, if it doesn't land on the earth it must have flown right over your head. I was using that in parabolic fashion. The concept of the new city Jerusalem landing on the earth flew right over your head. In other words, you didn't get the concept that if it decends out of heaven it must land on the earth.  :icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

That is all speculation.

[Beloved Servant]

Your quote from your post 487: " That is all speculation."

[Tony N]

This is a complete quote from 487. How is it all speculation? Care to elaborate?  :dontknow:

Those not found in the scroll of life will enter into the second death.

Scripture never directly answers the "if" in this word, "If anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 20¹⁵, CLT)  It seems to me that if we add words to what is written, that there were 3 or 3 billion for instance, we are liable to have added to us the plagues of this book.

Dear reFormer,  "if anyone" likewise does not mean that most of the billions resurrected to the GWT will not be cast into the second absence of life.

Rev 2:11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

The one conquering will be in the first resurrection and will not be injured by the second death. The mass of mankind, the billions upon billions of humans have not conquered and therefore will be injured after the GWT.

So those in the first resurrection the second death has no jurisdiction. Therefore all those who are in the resurrection after the 1000 years who will stand before the GWT, the second death will have jurisdiction. Those are the ones not having their names in the scroll of life. The conquerers will have their names in the scroll of life and not enter the second death.


(Revelation 20:15 CLV)  And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Also, the point is some believe the second death is life or some form of life. But how can it be life when those cast into the absence of life are the ones not found in the scroll of life?

Also, since none are righteous, not one is just, not even one, since the venom of asps is under their lips and their feet are sharp to shed blood and all avoid him, and since this is written concerning the billions and billions of people who ever lived, how many of those people do you think should be in the scroll of life? Let me ask you this: How many of the billions of people made it on to Noah's ark? How many just had part of them die in the flood?

The second death is called second because it is a repetition of the first death.

reFORMer replied:
Let's not get into a back and forth "proving" spirit, soul and body are dead in the death of the body.  Many believe that only the physical body is dead in the death that results in a corpse that usually is buried or burned and that the spirit exist apart from it, which is what I believe. It is not what I'm directly asserting here.  I'm only describing a path to the assumption that if the first death is the death of the body, then would the 2nd death be the death of the spirit?

Tony's reply:
No. If the spirit leaves the body then the body dies and the soul returns to the imperceptible or unseen. The Bible states that "if God withdraw the spirit then all die." When the spirit of Christ returned to God Who gave it Christ died. He was in unconscious death. He wasn't playing checkers in some part of heaven while dead. He relied on God to rouse Him from death because He could not do it while dead. He did not ascend to His God and Father while in the tomb (John 20:17).

reFormer wrote: There several (at least 5) ways the word death is used in the N.T..  Why, other than assuming it, should I think the 2nd death is just a repetition of the death of the body?  For a long time I thought that we were born spiritually dead, which was why we needed to be born again.  We are born with the 1st death.  Our spirits needed to be quickened unto life by union with the Holy Spirit in our bodies with us.  Those made alive like this are the bride, being in union with Him.  That would make the death of the body the 2nd death.

Tony's reply: The death all these people are resurrected out of to stand before the great white throne is the first death. After they are judged according to their acts they enter into the same death again being their second death.

reFORMer wrote:
Then Paul says, "Not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (1 Co 15⁴⁶, CLT)  Does that puts us back at "spiritual" death being the 2nd death?  Let me add, just because a person is honest about his belief and presents it sincerely with integrity it does not convince me that belief is factual.  I need it to be clearly stated in actual Scripture's words.  I've not yet found a secure understanding on this topic.

Tony's reply:
Paul did not quote 1 Corinthians 15:46 to state what you are stating. He was talking about in verse 51 that **WE** believers shall be changed from a soulish body (a body ruled by the soul) to a spiritual body (the same body but ruled by the spirit). He was writing about the resurrection of the saints and in verses 51-54 about putting on incorruption and immortality.
If all those standing before the GWT put on incorruption and immortality they would not be hurt by the second death but we know they will because only those in the first resurrection will not be hurt by the second death nor be under its jurisdiction.

The second death is not where just part of the person is burned away but the rest of the person is living.

reFORMer replied: Any Scripture directly stating this?

Tony's reply: Any Scripture directly not stating this?
The first death they were resurrected out of did not burn away anything. They enter into the second death which is a repetition of their first death.

The lake of fire is not a second death for Satan because he never died the first death.

reFORMer replied: While I find no statement in Scripture to the effect that, "Lucifer became Satan," or that, "Satan was Lucifer," it is interesting to note that if he, "...walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire," (Ez 28¹⁴, AV) then, because solid fire like a neutron star would be much hotter than liquid fire like our sun or the lake of fire, it would be very cold in the lake if the stone was the normal manner of existence.

That is all speculation.

The second death is called second  because it is a repetition of the first death.
These people who will stand before the great white throne were resurrected out of the first death. These people who are not found in the scroll of life, were resurrected out of that first death to be judged according to their acts.

reFORMer replied:
At least 5 times in the Bible it is recorded that, "God judges everyone by their deeds," Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus say it.  It's even in the last chapter in the Bible.  Everyone!

Right, we believers are judged now so we are not condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32). We believers will not stand before the great white throne like the world will who will be condemned to the second death.
[/quote]

[Beloved Servant]

It says nothing about landing on the earth.
So, it is speculation.