The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Cardinal]

Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits?  Is that here, yet?   He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago.  He is the firstfruits of all of it.  But are there others?

:cloud9: Yes we are, and I believe it's in the works. He has to have a perfected body to lay His head on. No one yet has received FULL authority (head), only a taste of it.

I have experienced a taste of it, but it's not a 24/7 walking in it constantly as He did, reality yet, that I believe those that press in till the end, will receive. A taste is not going to bring in the final harvest. Blessings...

[Beloved Servant]

I expect it, too!

5 "And now glorify Thou Me, Father, with Thyself, with the glory which I had before the world is with Thee.
                                                                                                                                                        John 17

[Molly]

"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" — Charles Pridgeon

DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!

Yes, that's good.  Micah had mentioned the Greek word for brimstone, and I was arriving at the rest of it myself last night through first principles--but then my computer crashed.

"brimstone"

G2303
θεῖον
theion
thi'-on
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.


G2304
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.


G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].


brim·stone (brmstn)
n.
1. (Chemistry / Elements & Compounds) an obsolete name for sulphur


sulphur US, sulfur [ˈsʌlfə]
n
(Chemistry / Elements & Compounds)
a.  an allotropic nonmetallic element, occurring free in volcanic regions and in combined state in gypsum, pyrite, and galena. The stable yellow rhombic form converts on heating to monoclinic needles. It is used in the production of sulphuric acid, in the vulcanization of rubber, and in fungicides. Symbol: S; atomic no.: 16; atomic wt.: 32.066; valency: 2, 4, or 6; relative density: 2.07 (rhombic), 1.957 (monoclinic); melting pt.: 115.22°C (rhombic), 119.0°C (monoclinic); boiling pt.: 444.674°C Related adj thionic


Verb 1. sulphur - treat with sulphur in order to preserve; "These dried fruits are sulphured"
sulfur
process, treat - subject to a process or treatment, with the aim of readying for some purpose, improving, or remedying a condition; "process cheese"; "process hair"; "treat the water so it can be drunk"; "treat the lawn with chemicals" ; "treat an oil spill"

[Beloved Servant]

I Am the Light of the world —

                                        — for our God is also a consuming fire.

[Molly]

Are we waiting for an 'endtime' firstfruits?  Is that here, yet?   He showed us the whole thing 2000 years ago.  He is the firstfruits of all of it.  But are there others?

:cloud9: Yes we are, and I believe it's in the works. He has to have a perfected body to lay His head on. No one yet has received FULL authority (head), only a taste of it.

I have experienced a taste of it, but it's not a 24/7 walking in it constantly as He did, reality yet, that I believe those that press in till the end, will receive. A taste is not going to bring in the final harvest. Blessings...

58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
--Luke 9

"head"

G2776
κεφαλή
kephalē
kef-al-ay'
Probably from the primary wordκάπτω kaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively: - head.


If I could be literal for a moment here, this verse seems to be saying there is no body to put his head on?  And, the Greek word implies that the head is the easiest part of the body to be seized.  So, one would tend to think, it's easier to attain the mind of Christ than to attain the resurrected body--and maybe his head will only rest on the resurrected body--but--

We know that's not the case because Paul tells us we have the mind of Christ now.

So, is it possible he is waiting for the right number to be sealed?  Those firstfruits chosen from the foundation of the world?  Waiting for all to be brought in as those Old Testament saints had to wait for us -- that they without us should not be made perfect [Heb 11]?

Is the body he is waiting for not one, but a group?  Or what the Old testament would call a troop?  And, all have to be sealed before the Son can rest his head on the body?



2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

--Rev 9



21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

--Obadiah 1

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, it's a troop of overcomers. There are two "companies"; the bride company and the bridegroom company. The bridegroom company becomes one with the Head. Then they are sent out to "woo" the bride company, and bring them into the fullness.

The same thing happened with the 12 and they were as a "seed" planted for what is coming, a firstfruits offering. In any great move of God He has always worked with a firstfruits principle. 

One of the companies is a firstfruits company, one is not, but both get the same reward. This is the parable of those that get the same wages as come in first, or in the 11th hour.

The fullness of Christ manifested is the reward. We do already have this "deposit" in our earthen vessels, but the manifestation is yet to come in fullness. That's why they got the EARNEST, or PORTION on the day of Pentecost. That means.....IT'S NOT FINISHED YET.

So those that think sonship is about exalting the flesh, couldn't be more wrong. We become as He is, a servant, and the Father's friend. Whoever would be greatest among you.......Blessings....

[eaglesway]

On the cross Jesus breathes His last, "It is finished". The last work is death. If any man would be my disciple, let him take up his cross, and come follow me. Enter the fellowship of His suffering.

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus reckoned Himself dead, "Nevertheless not my will but yours"- His golden altar of incense before He entered through the veil of the flesh to become a high priest taken from among among men. We must, "reckon ourselves dead" in order to "enter within the veil" and become a part of the priesthood and be "caught up to His throne" and "come down out of the heavens" as a Bride prepared for the Bridegroom- built on the 12 foundation stones and in line with the chief cornerstone.

This is the reward of the overcomers- manifesting, "finishing", the will of God as partakers of the divine nature- placed as sons because of the free will offering of their bodies(life in the body offered up- Romans 12:1-3). If any man build on the foundation "wood, hay and stubble" the day will reveal it and the fire will consume the works of flesh(1 Cor 3:13-17) that pretended sonship, friendship and devotion (James 3:15-17). As for rewards, humbling oneself and releasing the sonship to become a servant and suffer death on a cross is the only way to receive the promises. As for the portion, the earnest- it is both the promise and the means of securing the purchased possession the redemption of our bodies. To live is Christ, to die is gain.

Can a nation be born in a day? I hope so. The faithful husbandmen labors patiently, over the seed, the shoot and the full grain- keeping the weeds down and awaiting the early and the latter rains.

"If any one overcome I will keep Him from the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the earth". Why? Because the one who has "reckoned himself dead" has "passed through the fire" and "walks in the light" of the "fellowship of His suffering" and need not fear the second death.

"Today if you here my voice harden not your heart." Enter the Sabbath, the finished work, cease from your own works, labor diligently to enter His rest, reckon yourself dead.

The son of the bondwoman always persecutes the son of the free woman......"Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing".

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Yes, it's a troop of overcomers. There are two "companies"; the bride company and the bridegroom company. The bridegroom company becomes one with the Head. Then they are sent out to "woo" the bride company, and bring them into the fullness.

The same thing happened with the 12 and they were as a "seed" planted for what is coming, a firstfruits offering. In any great move of God He has always worked with a firstfruits principle. 

One of the companies is a firstfruits company, one is not, but both get the same reward. This is the parable of those that get the same wages as come in first, or in the 11th hour.

The fullness of Christ manifested is the reward. We do already have this "deposit" in our earthen vessels, but the manifestation is yet to come in fullness. That's why they got the EARNEST, or PORTION on the day of Pentecost. That means.....IT'S NOT FINISHED YET.

So those that think sonship is about exalting the flesh, couldn't be more wrong. We become as He is, a servant, and the Father's friend. Whoever would be greatest among you.......Blessings....

Molly I found this to be interesting in a study I was making on soul/spirit.
You referenced "servants" G1401=slaves.
the only time "slaves" is used is Rev. 18:13 and in Strongs "slaves" G4983(soma) which when followed I found that "save(d)" G4982(sozo) and "body" G4983(soma)
Body, slaves, and save(d) all I find very interesting. Peace... Just a thought

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP2nz6PG8KM

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said  "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right? 



CHB

Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

[Zeek]

The Adamic covenant:

Genesis 2
16 ¶ And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.

The Mosaic law was "added to increase the trespass" (Romans 5:20)

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, Amen and Amen.
Without the grace of God we would all be trapped in the law of sin and death.
Thanks be to Jesus who poured out eternal life unto all His Creation, forevermore.
For HE SO LOVES US, I could cry writing this.

He is jealous for me!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk

[CHB]

Hi Zeek,

Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said  "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right? 



CHB

Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

Hi Zeek,

Would you mind commenting on the rest of my post please?

CHB

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

Sorry, I don't mean to interfer but I have wondered about this also. You said  "the second death is the ending of the old creature". You are not talking about the Adamic creature but the Moses/law creature, am I right? 



CHB

Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

Hi Zeek,

Would you mind commenting on the rest of my post please?

CHB

The law worketh wrath.   

Love has been revealed.  I am in relationship with the Father.  Love without condition.  Growing through relationship.  If growing implies "burning" to you, then ok with me.  But lake of fire for me?  absolutley Not.   

Am I Adamic?  NO

[CHB]

Hi Zeek,

I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

You said, "the second death is the ending of the status of the old creature and that creature did pass away. {my words here,-- as if it no longer exists} we are wakening up to that truth".

To which I replied:

Don't we all still have a little of that same creature in us? What I mean is, we all to some extent have a feeling of we are in control of things. We all think that there are things we are, or should be doing to have a right standing with God. Most feel there is some kind of law that we need to do. Isn't this a continuation of the same thing just not on the bigger scale as the law of Moses.  Will not these things need to be burned out of us all?  It isn't just Israel who has a problem with letting go of the old laws, most of humanity are still in it's grip.

The above is what I wanted you to respond to. You said the second death ended the status of the old creature but that same creature exists today, does it not? There hasn't been an end to that creature yet, has there?

CHB

[Zeek]

There hasn't been an end to that creature yet, has there?

CHB

There has been an end to that creature.  

I understand this view is not accepted here much, and i've seen the arguments go round and round; but pm if you'd like to discuss this more.  

blessings.  

this thread covers many of the thoughts I have, similar to poster "barry"

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7326.0

[Tony N]

I may be getting this convoluted, but here goes.  Death and the grave are thrown into (another/second) death (LOF).  I'm having trouble getting my mind around that  :mblush:. 

Wouldn't that be the death of death? :scratchhead:

That is what is called a metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.

Likewise, "God so loves the world" where "world" is a metonomy for "all the people of the world."

So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire.

Death is still in force during the new earth age.

[jabcat]

Quote Tony - "That is what is called a metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.

So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire."  - End Quote


I understand this is all our own individual understandings/opinions (and obviously a difficult topic since there are probably hundreds of POVs) but how would you then personally see the above understandings coming together with this previous post?  Thanks.

The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.

..these are literally what they are.

[Tony N]

Quote Tony - "That is what is called a metonomy "Death and the unseen" are thrown into the lake of fire. What does the metonomy "Death and unseen" stand for? It stands for those held by death and the unseen.

So, no, it is not the death of "death and the unseen" but it is all those in death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire."  - End Quote


I understand this is all our own individual understandings/opinions (and obviously a difficult topic since there are probably hundreds of POVs) but how would you then personally see the above understandings coming together with this previous post?  Thanks.

The second death cannot stand for another metaphor because it is the explanation of the first figure "the lake of fire." So whatever death is, that is what it is. Death is the complete cessation of all life.

..these are literally what they are.

It just means what it means. The bible says "The lake of fire is the second death." So we know that the second death cannot be a metaphor for something else on top of the metaphor it already stands for.

Since it literally is the secon death and since those of death and hades are cast into that death it is a cessasion of life for them.

So death and hades stands for those held by them.
The lake of fire is the second death.

This cannot be the death of death mainly because the death of death does not come util all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled and Christ quits reigning and all those held by death come back to life. Then will death be abolished as 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 says. Paul goes way beyond John's revelation.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Looking out on the web, I see there's quite a strong following of the suggestion that "death and hades" is a metonymy (describing individuals being contained within those things) - though many also believe it means death and the grave itself - literally.  I understand your point Tony that death itself is not completely destroyed until the consummation/God all in all, because many will then be coming to life.

Interestingly, Wikipedia now has the following;

A commonly accepted and traditional interpretation is that the "lake of fire" and the "second death" are symbolic of eternal pain, pain of loss and perhaps pain of the senses, as punishment for wickedness.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the "lake of fire" and "second death" of the Book of Revelation as referring to a complete and definitive annihilation of those cast into it.[16]

Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia

[Tony N]

Looking out on the web, I see there's quite a strong following of the suggestion that "death and hades" is a metonymy (describing individuals being contained within those things) - though many also believe it means death and the grave itself - literally.  I understand your point Tony that death itself is not completely destroyed until the consummation/God all in all, because many will then be coming to life.

Interestingly, Wikipedia now has the following;

A commonly accepted and traditional interpretation is that the "lake of fire" and the "second death" are symbolic of eternal pain, pain of loss and perhaps pain of the senses, as punishment for wickedness.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the "lake of fire" and "second death" of the Book of Revelation as referring to a complete and definitive annihilation of those cast into it.[16]

Christian Universalists interpret the "lake of fire" as an instrument of purification/refinement that will bring all people into a relationship with God. The word for "torment" in Revelation 14:10 is the Greek "basanizo" which has a primary meaning of testing with a touchstone. The lake of fire is not only for torment but for "testing": the analogy is in testing metal with a touchstone to make sure it is pure. - wikipedia

According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."

There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.

Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is refining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.

But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.

[Molly]

There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.

But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.

Well, not precisely.  The lake of fire is the second death.


...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--Rev 21:8


So the first death didn't get the job done?  Obviously, dead is not dead, if you get my drift. lol


Ezekiel 37:4
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

[peacemaker]

According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."

There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.

Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is revining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.

But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.

Let's not quibble over semantics; a word can have several meanings or linguistic expressions.  

"Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory."

[Tony N]

According to the laws of language you can't make the explanation of a figure of speech another figure of speech. Therefore the lake of fire, being death, death cannot now be re-defined as if it is a figure of speech standing for something else such as "purification/refinement."

There is no purification or refinement in unconscious death. There is no testing in death. Death is death and death is the absence of life.

Only when God uses fire in a figurative way does it stand for something other than fire. For instance when God says He is revining the dross out of Israel while they are in the crucible we then know that "crucible" stands for refinement.

But when fire, i.e., the lake of fire is said to be death then that is exactly what it is; not refinement, not purification.

Let's not quibble over semantics; a word can have several meanings or linguistic expressions.  

"Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory."

No, actually, let's do quibble over semantics for it is by semantics that the truth concerning figures of speech and their meaning is established or destroyed. To be ignorant of or to resist semantics is to try to establish what a person wants something to be in order to prop up their own paradigm. Semantics makes everyone play the same game fairly.

You quote: "Death is to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory." as if that settles the whole issue. But what you have done is you have brought in another set of issues which now must be dealt with rather than keeping to the original issue as to figures of speech and their meaning of what is not a figure.

So how is death to be destroyed, swallowed up in victory? As long as anyone is in death, the shout of victory in the verse you quote in 1 Corinthians 15:54 will not be shouted.

The only time that shout will be exclaimed by all mankind is when all mankind exit the death state of the lake of fire. That does not occur in Revelation. It only occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 when death is abolished (vs.26).

So getting back to the main issue: What is the lake of fire? It is literally death. What is death? Death is the cessation of all life.