The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[Tony N]

If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.

Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.

[Nathan]

What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place?  What if it just means "separation"?  Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old.  He was simply separated from the realm of God. 

What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people?  The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?

What if the purpose of death was to experience resurrection life and it is 'LIFE' that is the end of all things and not death at all?  The message and purpose Jesus brought to us was not one of death, but one of life.  Should that not be what we're reflecting to each other then?  The life of Christ rather than the death of men?

[WhiteWings]

WW asked: BTW you didn't answer my question: When will the sinner become a saint?

If you read my former posts you would see I did answer this before. But I will answer it again.

Must have overlooked it. Sorry...

Those dead, who are not in the book of life, who are in death, the second death, are not saints at that point in time. They will be made righteous and have their lives justified (Romans 5:18,19; and be given immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15) only when the death they are in is abolished.

How fast will that be? I'm not asking for second accuracy.
Will it be (almost) instantly or does it take a lets say a whole year?

It will be this fast: when they put on immortality and incorruption which will happen as fast as it does us, in the twinkle of an eye.  :Sparkletooth:

That's very good news for me. So basicly there is no bad time for neither saint or sinner? If the dead are dead op the TonyN type then it doesn't really matter. Ok they mis a party in Jesus' kingdom but they are not aware of it.
:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

[Tony N]

What if the premise of understanding "death" has nothing to do with the absense of life in the first place?  What if it just means "separation"?  Adam died the day he ate of the tree just as God stated, but he coninued to live until he was well over 900 years old.  He was simply separated from the realm of God.  

Nathan, according to the Hebrew, Adam didn't die the day he ate. The curse was: to die shall you be dying which is a process. This process God further spoke on when he told Adam that he will work by the sweat of his brow until he returns to the soil for "soil you are and to soil you must return." That dying process ultimately led to his death. He may have been separated from the garden but surely not from God because God continued to talk with him and the kids.

What if the death we're talking about is death to the carnality in us instead of death to people?  The idea of people dying and being held in state of death only to be resurrected, judged and then put to death again . . .all the while proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and Life . . .really?

Was carnality a person and was carnality not written in the book of life and was carnality cast into the second death? No.

Who says these people who are resurrected, judged and put back into death again are proclaiming Jesus is the way, truth and live?

What if the purpose of death was to experience resurrection life and it is 'LIFE' that is the end of all things and not death at all?  The message and purpose Jesus brought to us was not one of death, but one of life.  Should that not be what we're reflecting to each other then?  The life of Christ rather than the death of men?

Yes, very good points on that last quoted section. I think these people will experience death so that they can really appreciate what life will really be when it is given to them when they are resurrected out of the second death. Once God is All in all what a day of rejoicing that will be!

[Tony N]

so the lake of fire is not a real lake and not real fire but represents DEATH.

But, death is not a lake, nor would anyone ever use the words 'lake, harbor, or haven' to describe death.  The closest would be, 'rest in peace.'

We talk of death as 'passed on,' 'passed over,' 'passed away.'  No one would ever say, 'He's gone to the lake.'

So, the use of this word is communicating something new to us, a metaphor that we would not see in general usage.

The sword metaphor is more common, as we understand that words can be 'cutting,' or even 'cutting to the bone.'  We say if someone insults us, 'that hurts'.  Or if someone badmouths us, 'he stabbed me in the back'.  Even Shakespeare acknowledges 'the pen is mightier than the sword', so certainly would be a sword coming out of the mouth of the Lord.

So--why lake [of fire]?

The many waters are nations:
Rev 17:1 And one from among the seven messengers who have the seven bowls came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the sentence of the great prostitute who is sitting on many waters,

Rev 17:15 And he is saying to me, "These waters which you perceived, where the prostitute is sitting, are peoples and throngs and nations and languages."

Just as waters are nations so the lake is death.

Just as John saw a symbolic prostitute sitting on symbolic waters so did John see a symbolic lake of fire. He probably saw what looked like a lake burning with fire but it was all symbolic. Maybe a lake involves swiftness. Like when one jumps into a lake they enter the water instantly. With the lake of fire they are cast into it and the death following is instant with no suffering at all. Maybe I'm all wet?  :icon_jokercolor

[Yab Yum]

If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.

Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.

It doesn't say "it is death for everyone else". Are the Adversary, beast and false prophet's names written in the book of life? By your own argument, if they aren't, they must be stone cold dead in the lake of fire - but they are alive in the lake of fire, being tormented.

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

 :icon_flower:   Tony, I am a strong follower of J.P. Eby's "Saviour Of The World Series "  Lake of Fire

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

Its a real worth while read at tentmaker's Site
or JPEby's site

[eaglesway]

Having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water.

That He might sanctify her by the washing of the water of the word....

If I have washed your feet you are all clean, If I wash not your feet you have no part in me.

Hopefully we are all "all wet"   :wink1:

I agree that the waters are symbolic of the nations and the lake of fire is also symbolic of something that surpasses our current ability to define.

Perhaps the second death and the experience of those who go into it, is also not quite so literal as you have proposed. In any case, I am happy to be "all wet".

We see through a glass darkly

[WhiteWings]

We see through a glass darkly

Yeah. I've been thinking about that. For the people of the first books, the glass must have been very darkly. As times passes by, more info is given and the glass clears up a little. But some new books like Revelation solve nothing. They just make the glass dark again. Likely Revelation needs an extra book with info to be understood. I think that book is on the bottom of the Lake. Perhaps we are discussing something that can't be known because the info simply isn't in the Bible.....?

[Tony N]

If the Adversary, beast and false prophet are all in the lake of fire being "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons", how can we say that anyone else cast into it is "dead"? Presumably the nbames of the Adversary, beast and false prophet are not "written in the book of life" either. Yet they live.

Because the Bible doesn't say it is death for them. It is death for everyone else.

It doesn't say "it is death for everyone else". Are the Adversary, beast and false prophet's names written in the book of life? By your own argument, if they aren't, they must be stone cold dead in the lake of fire - but they are alive in the lake of fire, being tormented.

To begin with, Satan is a super spirit being who is incapable of death, so how could the lake of fire be death for him?

Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary, beast and false prophet but it is said to be death for everyone else. So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?

[Nathan]

WW, that's kind of been my argument on these types of discussions all along.  Spiritual Truth for me, doesn't come through natural reasoning and discussion or study, but through revelation by way of relationship of intimacy with the Father.  The mind of man is limited at best.  And it's not conditioned to articulate spiritual principles.  It's purpose is to allow us to operate in natural things, not spiritual so much.  Everyone has opinions, but who has Truth?  Who has clarity?  Some speak boldy as though their point of view is "the" point of view that's right.  Yet their conclusions seem to be just as elusive as the original text.

I think the "benefit" of discussion is through people sharing what they see from where they are, but often times, when someone else sees something different, it becomes more of a debate and a demand for proof rather than edification and building of faith.

I totally agree with your perspective that the statment of vision being seen darkly was made 2000 years ago and hopefully, between then and now, that darkness has cleared considerably.  Personally, I think what makes it dark again is the laboring minds concluding through logic.  My mind is the veil that is what needs removed.  When I set aside my reasoning, it uncovers what my spirit is seeing and there inlies the maturity of my relationship with the Father.  But the first step is getting my mind out of way so my spirit can do the communicating.

[WhiteWings]

Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,

True.

So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?

True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day  :laughing7:

But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo

[micah7:9]

WhiteWings  Reply #360

"Likely Revelation needs an extra book with info to be understood. I think that book is on the bottom of the lake.
Perhaps we a discussing something that can't be know because the info simply isn't in the Bible.....?"
I believe the "extra book" is you or me or whosoever is receiving the fire in our lives today, now, as we walk.
We are opened daliy and we are read of, our works, this is happening now, can we hear? We are to grow from this reading..
....in spirit. I dont know how to even simply begin to explain how I understand words, like death and asleep so as to make
them understood by others, but The Lord has made me to hear them. Yes, we do see through a glass darkly and
Paul said we KNOW IN PART, the body must needs come together for the perfect/complete understanding.
1Co 13:12  for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part,
and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
:2c:
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Tony N]

:icon_flower:   Tony, I am a strong follower of J.P. Eby's "Saviour Of The World Series "  Lake of Fire

I'm so sorry to hear that. Here are some things I gleaned from what Eby wrote on the LoF found here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeofFire-Eby.htm I will put his remarks in italics:

Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion.

The problem with Eby's thoughts above is that the fire is just symbolic. There is no literal lake and no literal fire. What is literal is the 2nd death. So everything he says as to being changed by the fire is a moot point and has no bearing on what John was trying to show us. It is just death and death is the absence of life. If they aren't found in the book of life then they are going to not have life in any shape of form.

What about the harlot that sat on many waters? John is informed that those many waters are nations. Why don't we make up a bunch of fanciful ideas about the water? We could say: Water usually has fish in it and is comprised of the molecules of one atom of Hydrogen and 2 atoms of Oxygen. It evaporates and freezes hard, it is wet, it is cool usually, and on and on we could go. But that is not what John was getting at.

Eby goes on to say:

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH!

Actually, when all in the 2nd death are vivified or given immortality then that will be the death of death.
What Eby fails to see is the metonymy of "death and hades being cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:13-14 CLV  (13)  "And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.  (14)  And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."

The metonymy regarding "death and the unseen" is that it stands for or represents all the dead in them. Just as "God so loved the *world*" the word "world" is a metonymy for all the humans of the world.

Also the word "is" tells us there is usually a figure of speech when it is bold in the Concordant Literal New Testament. For instance when Jesus said of the bread: "this is My Body" He wasn't telling them that His body was literally bread and the same bold "is" is used in Revelation for "the lake of fire is the second death." John wasn't saying the second death literaly was fire nor "fire and brimstone."


Then he quotes Ray Prinzing who I believe is completely wrong on these matters but as my daughter always says: "whatever."

[Tony N]

Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,

True.

So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?

True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day  :laughing7:

But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo

Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.
I think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.

It is a great and glorious day!  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,

True.

So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?

True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day  :laughing7:

But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo

Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.

That's not (exactly) the defenition of the word.

I think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.

Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?

[Molly]

We are being tormented now--

2 Peter 2:8
(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—


Others will be tormented later [ in the lake of fire]--

Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.


"torment"

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.



G931
βάσανος
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.


G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.




13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

--Rev 14

[Tony N]

Also, by my argument which is this: The lake of fire is never said to be death for the Adversary,

True.

So how, according to my argument, they must be stone cold dead?

True.
Tony I agreed 2 times with you in a single post. Hows that for the beginning of a glorious new day  :laughing7:

But why the use of the word "tormented"?
That's so much more than just prison.
So besides concluding the advesary isn't stone cold dead, can we also learn something extra from the word tormented/basanizo

Hi WW, yes, we can learn something extra. "Torment" has to do with the mind while "torture" has to do with the body.

That's not (exactly) the defenition of the word.

I think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.

Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?

How could anyone possibly know. You'd have to go there in that future day and ask him what was tormenting him and he would probably lie about it since he is a liar from the beginning.

[eaglesway]

I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).

The sharp two edged sword of the spirit, living and active, coming out of His mouth- that'll do the trick

Jer 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Nothing is hidden that hall not be brought to light.

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)

the dragon in the deep is creating chaos......let there be light!

if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
clear water of life, fresh and pure, quenches the thirst for sure ;o)

[Tony N]

I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).

The sharp two edged sword of the spirit, living and active, coming out of His mouth- that'll do the trick

Jer 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Nothing is hidden that hall not be brought to light.

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)

the dragon in the deep is creating chaos......let there be light!

Very good! :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I think torment has to do with the soul(Pslms 6:3, 7:2, 11:5, 26:9). Like a blow torch of light consuming the residue of darkness until the exposure of the heart (truth in the inner man) by the dividing asunder of soul and spirit slays the fleeing twisting serpent(broken and a contrite heart-subjection).

Very good! :thumbsup:

I think Satan will be mentally tormented by the condition he will find himelf in.

Condition = locked up?
or
Condition = seeing his sinful nature?

How could anyone possibly know.

It seems you know... Otherwise why the  :thumbsup: ?

[chuckt]

i was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer, (( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.

a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.

off topic? sorry.

chuckt

[WhiteWings]

i was tormented for 14 yrs as a believer,

Can't be that bad chuckt with all those angles in your avatar :laughing7:

(( in his presence )) couldnt break out, couldnt get it right, i WAS a believer, seeking to and fro one preacher to the next, reading, wondering, till LOVE came and the message of UR set me free.

a light came on, havent been the same. even the scriptures read differnt now.

off topic?

That strongly depends on when you think the LoF is taking place and what it is...