The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[jabcat]

Come to think of it, it really might be interesting and enlightening to see those 2 charts from say, Bro's Eby and Knoch.  We could see what they have in common and what they differ on...may help with some of our perspective... hmmmm... :scratchhead:

Sounds like a project that could be done with some research.    

Busy times for you James  :Book:
Better call your wife that you sleep at office the next few days  :lazy:

You mean you're not going to pull all that info together?   :Whistle:

I may be tempted to look at it, but not right now.  It does sound like a LOT of work...

[WhiteWings]

You mean you're not going to pull all that info together?   :Whistle:

You are a man with great insight!
Perfect for the job :thumbsup:
Yer enlisted  :laughing7:

[Nathan]

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
                                                                                               — Hebrews 11
                                                     

Through "faith" I understand . . .not through knowledge or text.  It's through faith I understand the text.  Most are taught to build faith through text and that has only lead to division and debate.  If I already am convinced a word is written a certain way, any further reading is going to be understood through that same perspective.  In other words, if I'm a literalist, everything I read is going to be read as literal.  And to see things which were not made from literal things can only be understood as being seen as spiritual.

The things seen are used as symbols to reveal the unseen things to us.  Which causes me to repeat myself in this topic of Revelation in that it has literal application, but the literal application's purpose is to reveal spiritual truth.  I'm not to "take" it literally, I'm to  use the literal illustrations as symbols revealing spiritual truth . . . thus, I'm to pursue the spiritual nature of what's been written.

So yeah, all of those descriptions of hair of white wool, eyes of fire, feet of bronze, voice of thunder . . .they all have spiritual/metaphorical understanding.

When it thunders out, what causes the thunder?  Is it not the clashing of atmospheres?  A low pressure colliding with a high pressure?  What is that spiritually?  Paul states there's a war going on in all of us . . .inwardly, there's always spiritual storms happening.  Scripture refers to rain as teaching.  Wind implies spirit moving.  Water implies spirit flowing.  The thunder creates a shaking and earthquakes in us are spiritual realignment in our earthiness of thinking. 

I simply use the nature of the natural symbols and apply them to my spiritual condition and experiences.  Is there really a literal sword that comes out of Jesus mouth that literally kills the nations who are literally rising up against Jerusalem?  Or could it be the same sword Ephesians speaks of as well as the gospels that state the power and purpose of the sword is to divide, to discern the spiritual from the literal . . .bone and marrow, soul and spirit. 

The message of Jesus is not the same message of the Old Covenant law.  The Old Covenant is the literal manifestation of the spiritual principles.  Jesus was the substance of those literal things.  It's all symbolized to be something my natural eyes can't see and my natural mind can't comprehend. 

My mind is dominant in this natural realm and that's what it's purpose was always to be.  To govern "me" through these natural experiences of life.  But when it comes to spiritual things, the rules change because my mind is not equipped to operate with spiritual truths in the same way it operates with natural things.  And there lies the conflict. 

I'm not saying we're to become mental invalids . . .I'm saying my mind is to go from governing the natural, to merely "observing" in the spiritual.  How many times have we seen Jesus speak "peace" .  ."do not be afraid" . . .our minds are extremely reactive to the surroundings around us for the main purpose to protect our well being.  But when it comes to spiritual things, our minds don't know how to operate effectively and accurately so when we try to use the same principles of learning in the spiritual things as we did with natural things, it all becomes confusion to us. 

It's an act of submission for one to lay one's mind down and "let" the Spirit breathe on what's been written in order for the underlying truths to emerge and reveal the nature of the Son "to" us.  When we "see" the transformation take place before us, we then "become" what we behold.  I promise you, that day on the mount of transfiguration, Peter, James, and John came back in a completely different mindset than when they left.

But even there, it's after the pattern of the Sabbath.  That incident happened on the seventh day.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

The rules for living in the Sabbath are pretty much opposite from the rules of living in the days of labor.  This is a Sabbath Day message based on Sabbath Day principles.  It doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it doesn't come through natural reasoning and mental labor . . .it's a personal "experience".  The natural words and literal things are merely signs "pointing" to truth.

For me, the Bible is a book of signs . . .it's pointing to Truth, but it is not truth in and of itself.  The only thing that makes it come alive when it's being read is the spirit of God, dwelling within the reader. 

[Tony N]

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
                                                                                               — Hebrews 11
                                                     

A more faithful rendition of the above verse would be thus:

"By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God,
so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing."
-- Hebrews 11

The context is all about the eons being adjusted by God's declaration. What is being observed (Israel being cast aside and the promises put on hold) . It was a secret administration hid in God and revealed to Paul. We could not have known of this adjustment had not God given the knowledge to Paul and Paul write it and send the information to the churches.

Nathan wrote:
For me, the Bible is a book of signs . . .it's pointing to Truth, but it is not truth in and of itself.  The only thing that makes it come alive when it's being read is the spirit of God, dwelling within the reader. 

What part of this is not the truth in and of itself? . . .

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 CLV  (1)  Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which I bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand,  (2)  through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly."  (3)  For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,  (4)  and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures,

[Beloved Servant]

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.

JOHN'S  ACCOUNT

               Chapter 1
               1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
               2 This was in the beginning toward God.
               3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.

[Nathan]

Tony, what I mean by saying that is . .those words in and of themselves don't illuminate anything to anyone.  it's the Spirit that makes them come alive to you so that in this account, to you, it's obvious they speak of light and life . . .but this stems from your relationship with the Father.  The spirit is what gives you confidence in what you're seeing it to say.  Without the Spirit revealing anything, they're just words.

Look at the kind of damage the Pharisees did with God's words.  Paul set out to kill people in the name of God.  It was common practise.  They had the scrolls, then knew the word, but they couldn't see, nor could they hear.  That's all I'm saying here.

[Tony N]

Nathan, that's cool.

Yea, without God opening up our eyes and hearts and minds it is just words.

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia,
a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, revering God,
heard, whose heart the Lord opens up to heed what is spoken by Paul."

Had the Lord not opened up Lydia's heart she could not have heeded what Paul said.

[Tony N]

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.

JOHN'S  ACCOUNT

               Chapter 1
               1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
               2 This was in the beginning toward God.
               3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.

Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.

[WhiteWings]

"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar?  The Lamb?

^KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

[Beloved Servant]

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.

JOHN'S  ACCOUNT

               Chapter 1
               1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
               2 This was in the beginning toward God.
               3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.

Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.

Would you please rephrase that. It is convoluted to me.

[Tony N]

"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar?  The Lamb?

^KJVRev 14:10 Revelation 14:10 ... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Dear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.
If I say "My ex wife is built like a tank," you would not say she is a tank or that she was put together on an assembly line like they do military tanks.

[Tony N]

I don't believe in pantheism. "All in all" doesn't mean "God is All in everything" but has to do with Adam's posterity.

JOHN'S  ACCOUNT

               Chapter 1
               1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
               2 This was in the beginning toward God.
               3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.

Dear Beloved Servant, It is one thing that all came into being through the word and quite another that "All in all" has to do with Adam's descendants. Adam's progeny will have God All in them and all came into being through the word.

Would you please rephrase that. It is convoluted to me.

Your quoting John 1:1-3 does not prove God will be All in everything. John 1:1-3 just proves everything came into being by the word.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is about all humans. God will be All in all humans. To go beyond that is to go beyond the context of the passage.

[Beloved Servant]

If everything came into being by His Word, then where did the substance of everything come from?

[WhiteWings]

Dear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.

Dear TonyN, does it take a lot of practice to always misunderstand things?

[jabcat]

We're a little off topic here.  I'll make it short, maybe we can get back to the OP.  Again, I agree with Spirit-revelation.  There are just 3 things though that I'll again point out, that IMO - for me, for my understanding - cannot be overlooked.  And I believe the Word itself agrees.

All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation;  it can cut much better than any two-edged sword;  it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts;  and it can judge the feeling and thoughts of the heart.  Hebrews 4:12

so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.  Isaiah 55:11

These are not just dead words on a page.  ADDENDUM - I believe it has to do, as I said before, with God veiling or revealing them, as suits His purposes.  (Most Jews reading the scriptures are still veiled to this day, according to Paul.)   Yet the Spirit uses them as God wishes, to "accomplish what He purposes, and to succeed in the thing for which He sends it".  


Lake of Fire....

[Tony N]

Dear WW, being like something is not the same as being that something.

Dear TonyN, does it take a lot of practice to always misunderstand things?

Dear WW. I don't know if it takes lots of practice. I've never had to work at it. Stupidity just comes natural with me  :laughing7:

But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:

Quote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar?  The Lamb?

Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.

To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote: "So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.

I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.

[Tony N]

If everything came into being by His Word, then where did the substance of everything come from?

Everything that exists came out of God "Out of Whom all is."

But that is a completly different thing from God's goal to be All in all humans.

[Beloved Servant]

Thank you.
Would you please explain?

[WhiteWings]

But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:

Quote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar?  The Lamb?

Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.

To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote: "So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.

I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.

It's a fact I didn't misunderstood Jabcat. I fully agree with his conclusion at teh end of his post.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood me. We are all human and prone to err.
I don't understand that it even crossed your mind that I think Father is a piece of soap. :sigh:
It's about having a similar function. What earthly soap does to physical stains the devine fullars soap does to spiritual stains.
My post wasn't a grammar contest to bicker about  "is" and "like". It was about the link betweens Jabcats last verse and the topic of this thread.

[Tony N]

But be that as it may, this is what Jabcat said and what you replied:

Quote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
"But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is LIKE a refiner's fire, and LIKE fullers' soap."

WW replied: So He's the fire and the soap.
Who is the refiner and the fullar?  The Lamb?

Tony's reply: I don't think jabcat was saying Christ IS the fire or the soap. I'd bet my life he was saying Christ is LIKE a refiners fire and LIKE fullers' soap.

To be LIKE something is not the same as BEING that something.
So when you replied to what jabcat wrote: "So He's the fire and the soap," that is NOT what jabcat was saying He is.

I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood jabcat. We are all human and prone to err.

It's a fact I didn't misunderstood Jabcat. I fully agree with his conclusion at teh end of his post.
I think it is highly likely that you misunderstood me. We are all human and prone to err.
I don't understand that it even crossed your mind that I think Father is a piece of soap. :sigh:
It's about having a similar function. What earthly soap does to physical stains the devine fullars soap does to spiritual stains.
My post wasn't a grammar contest to bicker about  "is" and "like". It was about the link betweens Jabcats last verse and the topic of this thread.

I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning. Peace bro.

jabcat, care to help out?

[Tony N]

Thank you.
Would you please explain?

I'm not sure what I need to explain   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

I'll let jabcat answer you if he wants to. It just seems to me that some words you write (i.e. "so He's the soap") have no meaning.

Ok. One small step at the time.
If there is a fullars soap; does that mean there is also a fullar?
Soap + fullar.
Two persons who have similar functions as the soap and the one that uses that soap.

[Nathan]

We're a little off topic here.  I'll make it short, maybe we can get back to the OP.  Again, I agree with Spirit-revelation.  There are just 3 things though that I'll again point out, that IMO - for me, for my understanding - cannot be overlooked.  And I believe the Word itself agrees.

All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation;  it can cut much better than any two-edged sword;  it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts;  and it can judge the feeling and thoughts of the heart.  Hebrews 4:12

so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.  Isaiah 55:11

These are not just dead words on a page.  ADDENDUM - I believe it has to do, as I said before, with God veiling or revealing them, as suits His purposes.  (Most Jews reading the scriptures are still veiled to this day, according to Paul.)   Yet the Spirit uses them as God wishes, to "accomplish what He purposes, and to succeed in the thing for which He sends it".  


Lake of Fire....

I have no intentions of degrading the written word . . .if that's what's bringing caution to others, my most humble apologies.  My intent is to de-emphasize the literal application and pursue the spiritual . . this is all I've been trying to share from the beginning.  I'm not saying eliminate the literal, there "is" literal meaning there, but the meat of the matter is in the spiritual revelation that lies beneath . . .but to say the Bible is worth little is to become ignorant to all of it.  It's "through" reading the words that I feel we are led to the depths of the spirit so reading is still just as important as it ever was.

I do believe God's word divides soul from flesh . .just not always in the form of the "Bible".  I believe truth is obviously there, but when our minds are governing our hearts, even the Bible becomes distorted in our understanding.  There's no condemnation, there are still things engrained in me that come to the surface that I myself, must be willing to let go of for change to come and make the burden of trying to "understand" it all even lighter.

.
I believe just as you quoted the Word of God is for, and I paste . . .rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.  To me, that's saying the rebuking, correcting and training is to be directed to my "inward" man.  I'm to apply it to "me" rather than pitch it on to other people.  So that THE MAN (corporate man) may be thoroughly equipped. 

Otherwise, if I'm to use the Bible to reproof you, then it becomes more about making others submit to my standards and I turn truth back into religion all over again.

[jabcat]

Again, agree with much of what you have to say here.

[jabcat]

The Tony's... :happygrin:

Yes, I'm just saying there are many things that actually are, many that are like, and then probably some things that are both.  Just as some things are literal, some spiritual, some symbolic, and maybe some to be taken as all 3.  IMO, the "challenge" is be able to understand (be revealed) as to which is which...thus the many different POVs and understandings - and I don't claim to have the best handle on it.  Still learning, glass darkly, and I think it's very interesting.

Maybe you 2 are getting closer to understanding each other.  Potayto, Pototo... :bigGrin: