I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."
But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.
What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.
QuoteSo let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.
Hi Tony,
How ya doing Bud :icon_flower:
Tis through what you call the figurative or Spiritual, is IN TRUTH ,how I came to UNDERSTAND Christ the savior of ALL... :icon_flower:
The Topic of that Last Thread" Was the Temple to be Rebuilt" ....There are those who through the scrips have declared this to Be NOW and there as those who see it differently....Each to their own :icon_flower:
1Pe 2:5 Ye
also, as lively stones, are
built up a spiritual house, an
holy priesthood, to
offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Blessings
Taffy :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 04:07:01 PM
QuoteSo let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.
Hi Tony,
How ya doing Bud :icon_flower:
Tis through what you call the figurative or Spiritual, is IN TRUTH ,how I came to UNDERSTAND Christ the savior of ALL... :icon_flower:
The Topic of that Last Thread" Was the Temple to be Rebuilt" ....There are those who through the scrips have declared this to Be NOW and there as those who see it differently....Each to their own :icon_flower:
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Blessings
Taffy :icon_flower:
Hi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 07:21:23 PM
Well I dont agree with the letter of the word we know it kills but the Spirit gives life and that Jesus spoke in parables, and Hosea says God spake to the prophets in similitudes and visions etc, there are mysteries and Im not one who claims to know them all but I do agree with the dancing its irritating. If something might not make sense to me (which sometimes it might not I'm not going to pretend I see in full) its scriptural to see IN PART and if your one of the lucky ones who have ALL knowledge its STILL IN PART :grin:
Hi Kim. I surely don't have all knowledge and I do struggle along but I know when I'm being flimflammed.
By the way, you stated that "
Well I dont agree with the letter of the word we know it kills but the Spirit gives life" Where in the Bible does it say that?
Here is the context of "the letter" . . .
2Co 3:1 Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? Or need we not, even as some, commendatory letters to you or from you?
2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
2Co 3:4 Now such is the confidence we have through Christ toward God
2Co 3:5 (not that we are competent of ourselves, to reckon anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God),
2Co 3:6
Who also makes us competent dispensers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying."
2Co 3:7 (Now if the dispensation of death,
by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,
Dear Kim, the letter, chiseled in stone which is the law, is killing. The spirit of grace is what makes people come to life to God. Paul isn't saying that the letters he wrote and which we call his epistles is killing. The letters which comprise the evangel of grace does not kill.
QuoteWhen folks use their own words rather then HIS to slip through a debate and leave you with that HUH? (feeling) I will have to agree with you there. We might not see eye to eye on all things but that does not invalidate "every" point you have to make.
Peace
kim
Cool.
Quote2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--
There's the temple of God, Tony,
not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.
Quote from: Tony N on December 28, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."
But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.
What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.
ROFLOL! A little more eloquent than I was yesterday in a PM to someone where the book of Revelation is concerned. If it's not a pain in the butt over dial-up, I'll try to find a quote on what I'd said in closing. I'd been asked about something that I'd said with regards to Islam and I'd added a bit via PM to what I'd said and then said:
"I may be going overly literal on that aspect as far as the wording of Revelation, but I'm trying to be as literal as possible until I understand the literal and then I can see how it could apply metaphorically and whatever rather than dismissing the literal and chasing my tail with hyper-spiritualizations about stuff where I wouldn't know what I was talking about and would simply be trying to be deep or whatever. I don't want depth without foundation to where a better teacher comes along later and makes me look like I was on crack when I said such and such. I've got this hangup about being the most accurate person about anything spiritual.
"You might have already seen a little bit on the boards where some folks will just about say anything about some of the passages and be prematurely dismissive of anyone's attempt at understanding it literally first, before extrapolating from that what they believe God's telling us from it that would be relevant to our own personal lives. With me, I'm trying not to say more about the book of Revelation than it actually says until I understand the book better.
QuoteIm more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.
Maybe this is what some dont understand sis, :dontknow:
No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,
FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on December 28, 2008, 07:56:04 PM
Quote2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--
There's the temple of God, Tony, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.
So are you saying that if the letter kills and we are Paul's letter that we kill? Hmmm. :Chinscratch:
:cloud9: It's real simple, the way I see it. If He gives you something natural, bring it to the table with thanksgiving. If He gives you something spiritual, bring it to the table with thanksgiving.
I've never been to a banquet yet, where all that was on the table was one dish. In the same vein, I don't think He serves just bread/Word or just wine/Spirit, but He serves both. Since He is the Lord of the banquet, He will make sure you are filled with just what is needed, at just the right moment, to add to the measure of the stature of Christ within, something none of us can do. Blessings....
QuoteHi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.
You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:
Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:
Now have Good Day :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 28, 2008, 08:52:50 PM
:cloud9: It's real simple, the way I see it. If He gives you something natural, bring it to the table with thanksgiving. If He gives you something spiritual, bring it to the table with thanksgiving.
I've never been to a banquet yet, where all that was on the table was one dish. In the same vein, I don't think He serves just bread/Word or just wine/Spirit, but He serves both. Since He is the Lord of the banquet, He will make sure you are filled with just what is needed, at just the right moment, to add to the measure of the stature of Christ within, something none of us can do. Blessings....
yup :icon_flower:
All 2Corinthians 3 is saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with in Christ since we live on a much higher level with being transfigured by the renewal of our minds. The Ten Commandments were the only part of the Law written on Stone Tablets and are therefore the only part of the law being addressed in 2Corinthians 3. And being written to the Church at Corinth, then the obvious implication is that they were to be a cultural influence that would pull the city out of filth, paganism, and self love. They were to be His Second Coming, for all practical intents and purposes; the eschatology of that city. But that didn't preclude His literal future return to bring us into the New Earth, according to His promise in 2Peter 3. The only person that I know for certain was denying a literal return of Jesus Christ has already been banned. Others around here have been stopping short of saying much about His actual return and have been focusing on the revelation of Christ within us the hope of glory. Perhaps greater discipline should be exercised in threads in the difference between God revealing His Son within each of us and His literal return to judge the living and the dead to avoid the confusion that anyone's denying His actual return.
Quote from: Tony N on December 28, 2008, 08:51:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 28, 2008, 07:56:04 PM
Quote2Co 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
Ah, some of the most beautiful words in the Bible--You are our letter--engraved in our hearts--for you are manifesting a letter of Christ--engraved with the Spirit of the living God--
There's the temple of God, Tony, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart.
So are you saying that if the letter kills and we are Paul's letter that we kill? Hmmm. :Chinscratch:
No. I'm saying freeeedom! :bigGrin:
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:47:55 PM
QuoteIm more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.
Maybe this is what some dont understand sis, :dontknow:
No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .
:icon_flower:
Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?
I dont know, Id assume so ?
No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:
Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual
1Cr 2:13 Which
things also we speak, not in the words which
man's wisdom teacheth, but which the
Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. mmm :icon_flower:
Quote from: martincisneros on December 28, 2008, 09:13:09 PM
All 2Corinthians 3 is saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with in Christ since we live on a much higher level with being transfigured by the renewal of our minds. The Ten Commandments were the only part of the Law written on Stone Tablets and are therefore the only part of the law being addressed in 2Corinthians 3. And being written to the Church at Corinth, then the obvious implication is that they were to be a cultural influence that would pull the city out of filth, paganism, and self love. They were to be His Second Coming, for all practical intents and purposes; the eschatology of that city. But that didn't preclude His literal future return to bring us into the New Earth, according to His promise in 2Peter 3. The only person that I know for certain was denying a literal return of Jesus Christ has already been banned. Others around here have been stopping short of saying much about His actual return and have been focusing on the revelation of Christ within us the hope of glory. Perhaps greater discipline should be exercised in threads in the difference between God revealing His Son within each of us and His literal return to judge the living and the dead to avoid the confusion that anyone's denying His actual return.
Martin
Personally, For mine thesedays I choose not to get involved with either post or Pre mill..or any other version , spent 20 yrs with that in the WWCG... so I opt to leave that to those who do.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 09:41:12 PM
Personally, For mine thesedays I choose not to get involved with either post or Pre mill..or any other version , spent 20 yrs with that in the WWCG... so I opt to leave that to those who do.... :icon_flower:
I never could get into them either, Taff. I didn't know why until I sat down here to add this comment. Both of them have the same root of the 2 thieves on the cross, ie. it's always another day, instead of now is the day of your salvation, and the kingdom being searched for is not within. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 28, 2008, 09:57:04 PM
Both of them have the same root of the 2 thieves on the cross, ie. it's always another day, instead of now is the day of your salvation, and the kingdom being searched for is not within. Blessings....
Actually, an understanding about what the Bible has to say about the coming of the Lord doesn't negate our understanding of the Christ within us, unless one is cessationist and deferring all of their hopes until the Lord's return. You'll not find greater advocates of personal transformation, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the forcefully advancing Kingdom through the taught Word and Kingdom principles into all of the earth than the Postmillenialist. All I'm saying is that there's more than both the Christ within us and the return of the Lord.
It's both rather than either/or. I am a bit put off by interpretations of many passages of Scripture that specifically relate to our being revealed with Him in glory being put off by any of the millenial schools into the deep future. The day of visitation, our being like Him seeing Him as He is, when Christ who is our life is revealed we're also revealed with Him in glory, and perhaps a dozen other statements of the Scriptures are emphatically
NOW passages.
But the early chapters of Acts are emphatic about a literal bodily return of Christ Jesus when restitution at an advanced stage is being made. (It's revealed to us in Scripture to flow with the "from glory to glory" principle.) That's excitement; joy unspeakable and full of glory, provided that you're not missing out on greater and greater revelations of the Son of God within and through you in this life. It's when it becomes either/or that the confusion comes in and peoples lives are shipwrecked by putting off until tomorrow what they can have today and acting as though our own deaths are the necessary component in receiving the inheritance. Our inheritance of the Kingdom is right now in this time, unless we're short-circuiting our reception of it by continuing in the very things that St. Paul warns us are the very things that lock us out. Our inheritance of the Kingdom is right now in this time,
plus our inheritance of the King when He returns. The Lord doesn't put off until tomorrow what we can have today, otherwise Prodigal Sons would be impossible when their unrest unfortunately leads them to the pig pen. But
they did have something to spend along the way! I've already highlighted what the Bible has to say about the rapture with this article from
N.T. Wright (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3452.msg35971#msg35971).
The problem isn't with the resurrection, but with the belief created by rapture mania that there's something that we're yet waiting for before we reign with Christ. Hope deferred makes the spirit sick, as Proverbs says. And like a lot of other folks, I got very sick from that kind of teaching. It gave me an absentee Dad rather than an ever-Present Father that was both my comfort and chastisement; my riches and my self discipline to spend where He says to spend. Romans 5 says that through the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness we reign in life. I wasn't reigning when I thought, "okay, any second now......any second now.....and then...." Had it happened all of those years that I anticipated it, then my lot would have been with the Lake of Fire because that kind of teaching made me bury my talent over and over and over again, thinking "someday, so no time for investment of it right now." No, you're the fullness of the Godhead Bodily
right now if you've been washed by the Blood of Christ by having embraced His Lordship. You're
already complete in Him and Named after Him so that everything you say and do should be in the Name of Jesus. You're
already the head of all principality and power seated at His right hand in Christ. Hid with God, yes, but each
[and every] time there's a revelation of Jesus Christ there's a revelation of you, yourself.
But, He's still coming and we are awaiting a New Heavens and a New Earth in which righteousness alone reigns.In the meantime, our lives are to be about getting fuller and fuller of the Word of Christ, doing and saying everything in the Name of Jesus, and being cultural change. We're not only supposed to bring about a New Reformation, but a New Renaissance: a changed way of thinking in every area of life with Kingdom principles interpreting everything that we read in print, whether from the media, the ancient and modern classics, how to do our jobs with which we're refilling our bag of seed to sow since we're supposed to make a giving rather than a living, etc.
This world is ours
to change. The prince of this world is cast out. He came but he found nothing in Christ. And through our having been redeemed by Precious Blood we're the same. Satan finds nothing in us, and he's still cast out in the Name of Jesus. All we are, are enforcers. We occupy until He comes. The Word calls us an occupational force. All we're doing is tending the field. All things are finished,
but we see not yet all things under His feet in the way that they shall be under His feet, although they're all already under His feet from His position of power and authority. We see Jesus Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor that He by the grace of God should taste death for all except for God. He's the author and finisher of faith that moves these mountains rather than any eschatological ones. We're not supposed to wait before we reign. There's further and further levels of reign that'll belong to those that have patiently won every prize in this life.
It's both here and now and then and there. When He comes, He will find faith in the earth! :cloud9:
:cloud9: Yes, Martin, I agree, you can glean from anything.....I was sharing something that just hit me, and primarily referring to church hierarchies that have made those doctrines their sole bread and butter focus for years, to the extent of exalting them above HIM. I know you know what I mean, but I was just clarifying. Blessings to you....
Hebrew understanding of the Spirit.
The Old Testament is the foundation of our Bibles, the first 75% of the book. George Ladd states in his book, A Theology of the New Testament "The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of the Lord) in the Old Testament is not a separate, distinct entity; it is God's power-the personal activity in God's will achieving a moral and religious objective. God's ruach is the source of all that is alive, of all physical life. The Spirit of God is the active principle that proceeds from God and gives life to the physical world (Genesis 2:7). It is also the source of religious concerns, raising up charismatic leaders, whether judges, prophets, or kings. The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of God) is a term for the historic creative action of the one God which, though it defies logical analysis, is always God's action.
Dunn, in his book Christology in the Making adds, "The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized. There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit" (ruach) denoted power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach) in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men."
It makes a big difference to our Western minds at least - right at the start of the Bible, whether we translate "this Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters or "a wind [breath] from God swept over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2). The first possibility conveys to our modern minds the impression that the Spirit is an individual in "his" own right. Many Trinitarians read it that way. The second possibility suggest that God's energetic and creative presence was active.
Psalms 139 expresses this Hebrew parallelism beautifully: "where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?" (v.7). Thus, the Spirit of God is a synonym for God's personal presence with us. N.H. Snaith in his book The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament explains, "The ruach-adonai [Spirit of the Lord] is the manifestation in human experience of the life-giving, energy-creating power of God. And, The Spirit of the Lord is the medium through which God exerts his controlling power." A brief look at a few more Old Testament verses will show this Hebrew parallelism, where the Spirit of God (Heb. ruach) can mean the breath, life, Spirit, presence, and most particularly - a word of Yahweh: (Job 26:4) (Job 27:3-4) (Job 32-8) (2Sam.23:2) (Prov.1:23) and, Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
It is vital not to rush over this. Many other Old Testament examples could be cited to show that spirit and breath are interchangeable. The fact that the 'spirit' and 'breath' are translations of the same Hebrew and Greek words points to the root meaning of spirit as God's creative power, the energy behind his utterance.
Another world-renowned known Anglican, J.I. Packer in his book Keep in Step with the Spirit (also a committed believer in the Trinity) acknowledges that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit's "distinct personhood is not expressed by the Old Testament writers." So then, by what reason then do these learned commentators come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead? They admit that they stepped outside the boundaries of the Old Testament. They would have us believe that it is a doctrine newly revealed only in the New Testament. The New Testament does not alter the Hebrew concept of "spirit" as we will now see. The distinguished Bible scholar N. H. Snaith states that: "The New Testament pneuma (spirit) is used in all the ways in which the Hebrew ruach ( breath, wind, spirit) is used. It is used of the wind (John 3:8), of human breath, both ordinarily (2 Thessalonians 2:8) and of the breath which means life (Rev. 11:11). It is used of the vital principle in man (Luke 8:55, etc.), as opposed to 'flesh.'"
Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that: "It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17). The Virgin Mary is told that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35). And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.
This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God. He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34) But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly. Isaiah actually wrote, "Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"
What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding: To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit. There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit." In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2). On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit? The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!
Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Here "the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with "the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.
Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word
It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post-resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.
The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3). I am firmly convinced that the Scriptures are harmonious concerning the Spirit of God as being a power and word and mind of God in action. The Trinitarian assertion that the Holy Spirit is God himself is surely impossible to maintain when we note that nowhere in the Scripture is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped. At the end of the last book of the Bible when the redeemed saints are in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ in glory it is not a strange omission that the third member of the Godhead has no seat of authority on the final throne?
Paul
Quote....... primarily referring to church hierarchies that have made those doctrines their sole bread and butter focus for years, to the extent of exalting them above HIM.
Yup.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on December 28, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
I've noticed alot of people who post here write often that their understanding is "spiritual" rather than "natural."
But in reality, the "spiritual" is just another word for "figurative." You are turning something Jesus said as a figure of speech and turning it into another new and different figure of speech. It's not spiritual, it's unbelief.
What I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: God saving all mankind isn't really God saving all mankind. Let's just spiritualize or figuratise that too.
Was it the spirit that inspired you to post this? It feels as though you're only content when you feel you've clipped the wings of those who either are flying, or wanting to. Is that what the purpose of Scripture is to be used for? I'm not seeing the benefit of your intent.
Quote from: Pierac on December 28, 2008, 11:44:20 PM
Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word
For brevity, I'd say this sums it up nicely. I'd like to add a couple of things that came to mind as I was reading this. The Word is literally that Spirit, and the Word that is written down is the composite nature expressed of the Word that is Spirit. The Word that was "in the beginning", is Spirit.
And two, this was something the Lord spoke to me when I first came to Him, that ties in with this. I asked Him why it is we get the "goose bumps" when He quickens something to us, and He said, "It's my shadow." He is awesome beyond words. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: Pierac on December 28, 2008, 11:44:20 PM
Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word
For brevity, I'd say this sums it up nicely. I'd like to add a couple of things that came to mind as I was reading this. The Word is literally that Spirit, and the Word that is written down is the composite nature expressed of the Word that is Spirit.
And two, this was something the Lord spoke to me when I first came to Him, that ties in with this. I asked Him why it is we get the "goose bumps" when He quickens something to us, and He said, "It's my shadow." He is awesome beyond words. Blessings...
Caught my eye too CaRD...
Could add,IN THE positive sense, Voice, Mouth, Lips ,Tongue , mist , .....they all relay LIFE
I don't want to see the thread accidentally derailed into a Trinitarian/Oneness/Modalism discussion. I don't believe that that was Paul's intent in having posted what he posted, but to simply comment on what's spirit(ual) since the thread is called "natural and spiritual." What Paul brought up does bring a verse to mind that's very important to bare in mind with everything that's been said thus far in every post.
This isn't an observation, criticism, cheap shot or anything like that, and I'm not directing it at anyone. This is simply a clarification that the Bible does say this in one of the least studied books of the New Testament:
2John 9:
9 Everyone who is taking the lead and not remaining in the teaching of Christ has not God. He who is remaining in the teaching, this one has the Father as well as the Son. (Concordant)
Every one that taketh a lead, and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not, God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same, hath, both the Father and the Son. (Rotherham's)
every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; (Young's)
Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, *he* has both the Father and the Son. (Darby Translation)
Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God: (Wesley's New Testament)
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (NKJV)
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. (NASB)
The Bible teaches taking the lead when you're sufficiently advanced, have proven character, have the heart, and have the calling and the Holy Spirit's empowering. The sense of the verse above is actually "wandering away" from what should be your basics. The New American Standard (NASB), ironically, is probably the better translation 'cause Hebrews 5:12-14, the first few verses of Hebrews 6, Ephesians 4, and numerous other passages teach pressing on towards maturity.
I've been spending a lot of personal time with this verse as I've been personally (i.e. in my personal life more than on the boards) re-evaluating the content of my message verses the method of delivery and how to be the most understood. Some get in deep trouble by saying "cultural relevance" when their intent is "being understood" by a generation that wasn't raised on Elizabethan English (i.e. KJV) rather than adulterating their message, but that doesn't always come across with clarity, and so the charges of worldliness, being shipwrecked, sharing Christianity-lite, etc., abound when method of delivery is being re-evaluated by anyone.
Those of us that would fulfill what God's told us to do in conveying this message to the nations have three things to juggle: staying well grounded, staying abundantly clear in your presentation baring in mind the communication style of your audience, and pressing on towards perfection while still having it together with tailoring the message to your hearers. Had Paul walked up to Mars Hill in Acts 17 and tried to teach in the Scriptural "to the letter" style that he did in Acts 13, then they'd of understood him even less than they did and it would have been his bad rather than theirs. He'd of won fewer disciples than he won that day. Remaining Scripturally rigid in our presentation style inevitably involves a Rabbinical presentation, otherwise all of us have our [evolving] ways of saying things.
Therefore, a pattern of sound words isn't so much sticking to how you'd express things with a particular translation, but being solid in the truth so that no matter how you ever wind up having to share your message, you've never departed from the principles of your message, your system of understanding it's unfolding timing, etc., etc., though you may someday quote heathen poets like Paul did in Acts 17 and would therefore [to any Judaizer present that day] sound like a heathen rather than having rigidly maintained an [in letter only] pattern of sound words.
Quoteamen my favorite saying Yeah because if you look at it even with Mary when its spoken to her about her soul (singular) being pierced so THAT the hearts of MANY (plural) would be revealed and Him neing a sign that would be spoken against was spiritual right here in this picture because HER and THEM and the sign itself is shown as one in that regard, same with being made of a woman under the law, it speaks of children under a the tutor, it speaks of "to us a child is born and a son is given" and these too are spiritual truths as those led by the Spirit are the Sons of God but Paul speaks of Himself as a child understanding as one, and being ad little children to labor among until Christ is formed in us and we become no more children but Sons etc etc. The virgin type is also applied concerning our own being presented as a chaste virgin to Christ but more after a mind not corrupted from the very simplicity in Christ. Even the freind of the bridegroom who rejoices to hear His voice and his joy being made full can be seen as the oneness of following after Christ in us.
Even the star that went before them to lead them to where he is at, comes to a particular house (and we are His house) over which He is and is named the morning star and even the disciples were compared to a woman bring forth a man child and the joy associated with seeing the star, and rejoicing in Him and the joy that comes to us (as Peter speaks of) in regards to receiving the end of our faith, even the very salvation of their souls.
ya Flowing there Fire...Could take this a few other places too...egh :icon_flower:
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and j
oy in my people: and the
voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an
infant of days, nor
an old man that
hath not filled his days: for the
child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an
hundred years old shall be accursed. :Sparkletooth:
:HeartThrob:
Will somebody please answer my question--
Does man have his own spirit? Or is spirit something extraneous which enters man, whether it be the Spirit of Christ/God or the spirit of demons?
:cloud9: Well, Martin as pertaining to the message, I too have been reflecting on that of late. It's clear we don't have the PURE undefiled content and intent of the Spirit, or things would have culminated already.
I personally think what's happening is He is refining by revelation just what exactly the doctrine of Christ actually is, after it has been smothered by 2000 years of denominational choke holds, assumptions, deliberate deletions, and traditions of men. Just when you think you have some kind of handle on it (speaking for myself here), He reveals something different that sets you on your ear, er, knees again. Blessings....
Cardinal, great response, and I absolutely feel the same way.
Molly, personally, I would say what you have is yours, given by God.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Does man have his own spirit?
Yes, he does 'cause the Word divides between spirit and soul. Absolutely nothing else does. We're to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. Ecclesiastes says that the spirit of man returns to God. Fruit of the spirit is the fruit of your own recreated spirit being nurtured with the Word of God. Does all of the same stuff as the gifts of the Spirit in 1Corinthians 12 if you're really to the point of harvesting your fruit at different seasons of your life.
:cloud9: Actually, this is something Molly and I have been discussing and I'd like to talk about it. I normally don't bring things to the table until He has "fleshed" them out for me, so let me be the first to say I don't understand the ins and outs of this. It started with something He spoke to me while I was studying, which was, that He was getting ready to take our breath away (to replace it with His?), and what came was that it was to give up the ghost (but not literally), and that the ghost was the spirit of Adam.
I feel that this has something to do with our glorified bodies being manifested, and I know there is revelation in there. As I said, I don't "get" it all (maybe I'm not supposed to yet), but I know His voice and it was enough to put me face down on the floor. Thoughts, anyone? (please refrain from picking up stones, my tired old bones can't take it :winkgrin:)
Blessings.....
Quote from: martincisneros on December 29, 2008, 12:45:48 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Does man have his own spirit?
Yes, he does 'cause the Word divides between spirit and soul. Absolutely nothing else does. We're to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. Ecclesiastes says that the spirit of man returns to God. Fruit of the spirit is the fruit of your own recreated spirit being nurtured with the Word of God. Does all of the same stuff as the gifts of the Spirit in 1Corinthians 12 if you're really to the point of harvesting your fruit at different seasons of your life.
well, but but
Maybe the sword dividing spirit and soul is him redeeming us from an evil spirit.
And it is my soul that is being renewed, isn't it?
He restoreth my soulThe fruit of the Spirit, and the gifts, comes from the Holy Spirit, not my own.
And, so forth...
I believe Adam had spirit because he was given the breath of God, but Eve did not, which is why she was easily deceived.
Remember Jesus breathes on the disciples and tells them to receive the Holy Spirit
before Pentecost...
It would explain why those Israelites could never keep a thought in their heads for two days--out of sight, out of mind, and let's build a golden calf...
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
It would explain why those Israelites could never keep a thought in their heads for two days--out of sight, out of mind, and let's build a golden calf...
I laughed out loud on this one........ain't it the truth? And it sure applies to us trying to do things in our own strength too, doesn't it? Blessings....
:cloud9: Back to the topic at hand, I always took that as the sword dividing the soul and HIS Spirit asunder. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 01:52:07 AM
:cloud9: Back to the topic at hand, I always took that as the sword dividing the soul and HIS Spirit asunder. Blessings....
If divide means separate, why would he want to separate our soul from His spirit? :mshock:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."dividing"G3311
μερισμός
merismosmer-is-mos'
From G3307;
a separation or distribution: -
dividing asunder, gift.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Will somebody please answer my question--
Does man have his own spirit? Or is spirit something extraneous which enters man, whether it be the Spirit of Christ/God or the spirit of demons?
I know HIS Spirit testifies to OUR Spirit, so yes I see we have our own spirit wouldnt you think?
Could I see the fine print on that?
:cloud9: Well, a better way to explain it might be, to separate the soulish things of us from His Spirit. It is like the circumcision of Abraham in that the soulish things of the flesh are separated from His Spirit. Put on the fire, it becomes cleansed/purified like the chaste virgin soul Fire was talking about. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 02:00:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Will somebody please answer my question--
Does man have his own spirit? Or is spirit something extraneous which enters man, whether it be the Spirit of Christ/God or the spirit of demons?
I know HIS Spirit testifies to OUR Spirit, so yes I see we have our own spirit wouldnt you think?
Could I see the fine print on that?
Nevermind. I found it.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.But that word is 'pneuma' and that word could mean soul.
[our]
"spirit"G4151
πνεῦμα
pneumapnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is,
(human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
:cloud9: I'm telling you, everything we ASSUMED is being shaken right now. I'm looking hard at everything, asking myself just what do I believe and did it come from inspiration of the Spirit or something I heard way back and accepted. I want HIS Truth, no fairy tales of men, I want the PURE WORD, uncorrupted by men's minds, including my own, if by any means by the grace of God I can receive it. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 02:07:49 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 02:00:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Will somebody please answer my question--
Does man have his own spirit? Or is spirit something extraneous which enters man, whether it be the Spirit of Christ/God or the spirit of demons?
I know HIS Spirit testifies to OUR Spirit, so yes I see we have our own spirit wouldnt you think?
Could I see the fine print on that?
Nevermind. I found it.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
But that word is 'pneuma' and that word could mean soul.
[our]"spirit"
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Molly
Soul and spirit for me are synonymous,...The Life giving SPIRIT of US ,the First Adam , our corrupted soul( heart and Mind) is temporary, tis Renewed with the TRUE LIFE ZOE spirit\soul, heart and Mind which is TRUE LIFE....
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 02:11:48 AM
So do we have two pneumas or one? :grin: Cause one who is joined with the Lord is ONE Spirit right?
Here we go with the "one, twos, threes" being one! :grin:
Yes one spirit--His.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.hmm that word is also pneuma...
But then if we have a spirit, what happened to it?
Remember when Jonathan and David had their souls knitted together? Why didn't it say their spirits were knitted together?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 02:11:48 AM
So do we have two pneumas or one? :grin: Cause one who is joined with the Lord is ONE Spirit right?
Here we go with the "one, twos, threes" being one! :grin:
yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I am also in agreement .. :thumbsup: blessings :HeartThrob:
body , soul and Spirit complete in Him .. :HeartThrob:
1Th 5:23 -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
:cloud9: Here we go.....and there are others in the OT even speaking of spirit AND soul.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 02:18:41 AM
I am also in agreement .. :thumbsup: blessings :HeartThrob:
body , soul and Spirit complete in Him .. :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
QuoteWhat I find interesting is that when Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are brought up people dance all around those passages and say they should be taken spiritually. In other words, the tares stand for our flesh and the wheat for us as well. Lightning isn't really lightning and Christ's return isn't really Christ's return.
I just read Mathew 24 and 25 to see what you were talking about. Are you suggesting that if a person doesn't see these events as future that they are suffering from unbelief? Your comment here seems mean-spirited. I too am trying the best I can to understand things, and to say that if I have a different eschalogical viewpoint than your own that I have 'unbelief' seems condescending.
:cloud9: Ok, again, we have a spirit, the OT writers spoke of having a spirit. The first Adam was a living soul. I guess the question for me is, did a spirit of Adam transfer down through the generations, just like our DNA? I know He showed me years ago about generational curses transferring through evil spirits, but what if there's something else? If He rolled the waters of death all the way back to Adam, and waters can speak of that which is of the spirits not of Him......Anybody? Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 02:19:20 AM
1Th 5:23 -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
:cloud9: Here we go.....and there are others in the OT even speaking of spirit AND soul.
Ok, but isn't he saying this to people who have the Holy Spirit?
"spirit"G4151
πνεῦμα
pneumapnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze;
by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
"soul"G5590
ψυχή
psuchēpsoo-khay'
From G5594;
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151,
which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222,
which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: -
heart (+ -ily), life,
mind, soul, + us, + you.
"body"G4983
σῶμα
sōmaso'-mah
From G4982;
the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
:cloud9: Yes, He is......but in the OT they speak of having a spirit, and they didn't have the HS as we do, except in a few isolated instances.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 02:26:41 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 02:19:20 AM
1Th 5:23 -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
:cloud9: Here we go.....and there are others in the OT even speaking of spirit AND soul.
Ok, but isn't he saying this to people who have the Holy Spirit?
"spirit"
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
"soul"
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
"body"
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
thanks Molly , perfect /complete Strong's G5046 - teleios τέλειος
Transliteration
teleios
Pronunciation
te'-lā-os (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
from G5056
TDNT Reference
8:67,1161
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all.
If any man offend not in word,
the same [is] a perfect man,
[and] able also to bridle the whole body. :thumbsup:
I believe the body is last ?
Spirit and than soul . these can be divided asunder
Strong's G3311 - merismos μερισμός
Transliteration
merismos
Pronunciation
me-rē-smo's (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
from G3307
TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a division, partition
a) distribution (of various kinds)
2) a separation
a) so far as to cleave asunder or separate
what would that make one like ?
:mshock:
:cloud9: So if the spirit of man was the same as God's spirit then it too would know the things of God, yes? But we don't, so....
:cloud9: Thanks for the study posting Fire.....will read and re-read it for a couple of days and meditate on all this. There is something I'm missing, I can feel it.....and it's nagging me......Blessings.....
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 02:57:10 AM
Heres a few verses I pulled from one of my studies
NT is "Pnuema of God with pnuema of man" in the OT is "Ruwach of God with ruwach of man"
His Spirit with "man" who is flesh
Gen 6:3 My spirit (Ruwach) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh
He is the God of the spirits of all flesh
Numbers 16: 32 O God, the God of the spirits (ruwachs) of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
The Spirit of God in a man in the OT
Gen 41:38 Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit (Ruwach) of God is?
NT (Pnuema) shows man has a spirit that knows only the things of man but does not know the things of the Spirit of God (its Gods spirit we need). I think its referred to as the Spirit of the world though.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit (pnuema) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit (Pnuema) of God.
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit (pnuema) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Subjection to the Father of spirits that we might live.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits (pnuemas) and live?
Again...
Numbers 16: 32 O God, the God of the spirits (ruwachs) of all flesh
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit (pnuema) may be saved
Man is flesh, after a carnal truth we are in the flesh yet after a spiritual truth we are not in the flesh (and the determining factor) is Gods Spirit. Yet God is the God of the spirits of all flesh as He is the Father of spirits
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit (pneuma)of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit (pneuma) of Christ, he is none of his.
Other spirits (pnuemas) whether they are of God
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit (pneuma) but try the spirits (pneumas) whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; (psychē) the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (pneuma)
Heb 4:10 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul (psychē) and spirit, (pnuema) and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In the Old testament it was the SOUL (nephesh in the OT and psyche in the NT) that sinneth died. Its Christ who made HIS SOUL an offering Isaiah 53:10 Adam (a living soul) sinned and in that day what died was his LIVING soul and all were DEAD. Death (to be carnally minded) reigned.
The soul (nephesh) the sinneth shall die
He restoreth MY SOUL (nephesh)
Its SOUL salvation
Prov 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; (nephesh) but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (psychē)
1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (psychē)
Very Timely
:cloud9: I meant I read the scriptures until He speaks to me concerning them and you got them all together for me! And I know there is something I'm missing in ALL of this. I get a nagging feeling when He's trying to get me to see something and I'm just too dense to get it, LOL.....I call it the Lord's hammer.......He'll keep hammering me with it until the "day" dawns here, LOL.....Blessings....
Quote from: FireIts SOUL salvation
The soul is saved first and then the body?
So there is something strange about spirit...
Does he marry his Spirit to our soul?
The bride is our soul? And the groom his Spirit?
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit (pneuma)of God dwell in you.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
So is that saying if you have any other 'spirit' but Christ, you are in flesh?
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 12:35:32 AM
Will somebody please answer my question--
Does man have his own spirit? Or is spirit something extraneous which enters man, whether it be the Spirit of Christ/God or the spirit of demons?
That's a good question Molly. I think our Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father giving our Soul life. Our soul is our collective being, given life by the Spirit. Let me share some verses to help explain...
Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
and the spirit will return to God who gave it. ... Gen 2:7 The Spirit is the breath of life (Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 3:18-19 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (
Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
Now add...
Luke 8:54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, "Child, arise!" 55
And her spirit returned, and she got up immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and
gave up His spirit.
The question is was the Spirit the actual property of the little girl and Jesus, or does it belong to God who gave it as in Ecc 12:7? :dontknow:
Paul
I have posted this before but feel it fits this post...
When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my research.
Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.
Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father.
Paul
Excelent! The spirit of god is synonamous with the Holy Spirit and the Finger of God.
Hello ...tap ...tap ...tap ...Is this thing on? :blush:
"Spiritual means not physical; it doesn't mean not literal."
So, stay awake, for you know not the day, nor the hour of His visitation – spiritually speaking!
peacemaker
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 05:48:25 AM
I agree, I recall a freind of mines post on the finger of God shown even through Christ, I save her post (Chrissie is her name)
I thought this was cute
John 8:5 Now Moses in the law """commanded us""" that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse HIM. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted himself up, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them;
John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted of their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
It says "The LORD is THAT Spirit" :thumbsup:
He's writing his laws on their minds and hearts. Are these part of our spirit or our soul?
INDWELLING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
Before starting one thing must be said, I do believe that the Spirit of God can and still does come upon individuals to guide them, but this should also not be confused with the indwelling of the Spirit of God.
Much of the confusion about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes from certain passages that have been interpreted as if Jesus meant them for all Christians in the future. This is an erroneous conclusion. One such example is in John 14: 15-17:
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to be with you always."
Many people take this verse as if Jesus were speaking to all Christians. But the fact is that he is not. From John 14 to John 18 Jesus is at the last supper speaking specifically to the Apostles. What he is telling them is not meant for all of us. Take for example John 14:12:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these."
This is very specific. The Apostles did do works as great or greater than Jesus. They raised people from the dead, healed the sick etc., just as Jesus told them they would. Have you done works greater than Jesus? I know I have not, nor do I know of anyone that has. This is because we are not suppose to. Jesus was speaking specifically to the Apostles.
We have to make sure that we pay attention to whom the Scriptures are directed at. People make assumptions that all the Scriptures were written for all the people of all the ages. This is not the case. Although we can always learn valuable lessons from all the Scriptures, we must observe to whom, and for what purpose a particular Scripture was written. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians he addressed a specific problem that they were having. He did not write to them with the idea that his letter would become part of the New Testament and would be applicable to all Christians everywhere. Many parts are applicable to all Christians, such as advice on Christian living etc. But we must not take that to mean that every Scripture is meant for all people of all times.
As we shall see, the Spirit of God is in us, but not in the same way that it was in the Apostles and the first Christians. That was specific to that time period, when the church was not yet mature.
First, we must define what it means to be "spiritual," to live "in the spirit." Does that mean that we have the Holy Spirit living in us as the Apostles did, actively guiding our every move, telling us "go there," "do not go there." I do not believe so. To be "spiritual" or to "live in the spirit" means to live in accordance with the will of God. To be able to discern and follow His will. If we follow our own desires, we are "of the flesh." If we live in the flesh we are really following our own will (mind) and not the will (mind) of God. This is why our minds have to be renewed. Let's take a look at a few examples:
Romans 12:2: "Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind (spirit), that you may discern what is the will of God" (being spiritual).
Romans 7:25: "Therefore I with my mind (spirit) serve the law of God (his will) but, with my flesh, the law of sin."
Ephesians 4:17: "Do not live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds (flesh); darkened in understanding, alienated from the life of God (spirit)."
Galatians 5:16: "Live by the Spirit (a mind that follows the will of God) and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh" (our own desires).
1 Peter 4:2: "So as not to spend what remains of one's life in the flesh on human desires, but on the will of God" (on spiritual things).
Romans 8:7-9: "For the concern of the flesh is hostility towards God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh (following their own will) cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit (in the will of God), if only the Spirit of God (mind, mind-set of God) dwells in you."
In other words, you are spiritual if you posses the knowledge or wisdom (of His will) that is from above (from God). Earthly wisdom is considered unspiritual. James 3:15 is an excellent example:
"Do not boast and be false to the truth. Wisdom of this kind does not come from above (from God) but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic."
Paul says in the previous verse Romans 8:7-9 that we are in the spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. This is a reference to the indwelling of the Spirit of God in us which we hear so much about, and which is also confused with what the Apostles and the first Christians experienced. But what does it mean to have the Spirit of God dwelling in us? Do we have God's Holy Spirit actually living in us, or do the writers of the New Testament mean something else? What do they mean when they use the word "dwell?" Let's look at some examples:
2 John verse 2: "Because the truth dwells in us."
Romans 7:17: "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Romans 7:18: "For I know that good does not dwell in me."
1 Colossians 3:16: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."
Do these verses imply that Greek-type spirits called truth, sin, good, and word of Christ come and live in us? Of course not. Dwelling means that it is inherent in your being, in your way of thinking. Truth dwells in you in that your mind has accepted the concept of truth and it is now a part of your belief system, in this way the truth is in you. The word of Christ dwells in you in the sense that you believe the teachings of Jesus and have incorporated them into your life. These teachings are now inherent in your way of thinking, it is in this sense that they are in you, i.e. "dwell in you."
We have God in us (dwelling in us) when we are filled with the knowledge of His will. We have God in us when we accept His teachings which Jesus revealed to us. This is how the Spirit (mind) of God is in us.
2 John verse 9: "Anyone who is so "progressive" as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not [/b]have God[/b]; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son."
1 John 2:24: "Let what you heard from the beginning (the word) remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and the Father."
1 John 2:5: "But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him."
Colossians 1:9-10: "asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding."
The gospel which is God's plan of salvation for us (the kingdom of God message), which is His will, is reflective of the mind of God. My mind is reflective of me. It reflects who I am as a person. The gospel is referred to many times in the New Testament as the "word of God," or just the "word." The gospel (His word) is the expression of God's thoughts. In other words, the gospel is the mind of God. The mind of God is God. Another way of saying it is, "the gospel is God," or: "THE WORD WAS GOD" (John 1:1).
When we truly believe and accept the word (will) of God with our minds and hearts, the Spirit (mind-set) of God dwells in us. It is an integral part of our being. It is in us. We are now one in mind with God.
To some people this concept is frightening, mostly because people like to think that God is actually living inside their bodies and guiding them through this life. But in a sense He is. If we live in the spirit (His will), the Spirit (mind-set) of God dwells in us. He has not left us alone, he has given us a renewed mind, a new way of thinking that will guide us in our journey to His glorious kingdom to come.
See you at the resurrection!
By Juan Baixeras
Paul
I love acts 17 for this reason Paul explains the ressurection very well here :thumbsup: and the very Spirit of God among us ..
Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Act 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Act 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]?
Act 17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
Act 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--Rom 8
"carnal"
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
"mind
G5427
φρόνημα
phronēma
fron'-ay-mah
From G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).
So we have a 'flesh mind.' Is this 'flesh mind' the spirit of man? Does flesh give rise to some type of spirit? An inclination or purpose could be--sounds like-- spirit...
It's impossible to please God without faith. And we can't have faith without Christ.
...but we have the mind of Christ. [1 Cor 2:16
This 'mind' is a different greek word; it actually means intellect:
"mind" [of Christ]
G3563
νοῦς
nous
nooce
Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding. Compare G5590.
So the soul without the Spirit of God is a flesh mind?
This is not good. Flesh dies.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:09:21 AM
Molly have you ran "thoughts" and "heart" together in scripture?
Because I dont think the definition to eternal life is "to know God" rather it speaks of it by way of time verses intimacy
Having his mind is about as intimate as it gets lol.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:08:38 AM
So the soul without the Spirit of God is a flesh mind?
This is not good. Flesh dies.
Depends on how you look at it, if death reigned from Adam to Moses and to be carnally minded is that death is it talking about the physical flesh after a physical truth or the spiritual truth concerning a fleshly mind.
For example the BODY without the spirit is dead and there are those who live for pleasure who are dead while they live, and their bodies are walking around enjoying themselves, which spirit? cause we are to test the spirits to see if they are of God cause in the same breath there are false prophets who have not the Spirit of God in them (mostly cause His Spirit is truth) so if they are false then theres no truth in them.
The man without the Spirit of Christ is none of His it says and His Spirit is the determining factor of whether one is in the flesh after a spiritual truth cause we all are in the flesh after a natural truth right?
He says if we do not have the Spirit of Christ we are in the flesh. And, if we are in the flesh we have a flesh mind. Which is probably, like Eve, influenced by all sorts of extraneous demon spirits of lying and so forth.
I'm thinking this flesh mind is as good as it gets without Christ. And, as we know, the flesh is a roller coaster ride of hormones and desires. Then if the accuser moves into the top floor, annie bar the door, it can get really unpleasant.
But his mind is peace and love.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:35:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:30:46 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:08:38 AM
So the soul without the Spirit of God is a flesh mind?
This is not good. Flesh dies.
Depends on how you look at it, if death reigned from Adam to Moses and to be carnally minded is that death is it talking about the physical flesh after a physical truth or the spiritual truth concerning a fleshly mind.
For example the BODY without the spirit is dead and there are those who live for pleasure who are dead while they live, and their bodies are walking around enjoying themselves, which spirit? cause we are to test the spirits to see if they are of God cause in the same breath there are false prophets who have not the Spirit of God in them (mostly cause His Spirit is truth) so if they are false then theres no truth in them.
The man without the Spirit of Christ is none of His it says and His Spirit is the determining factor of whether one is in the flesh after a spiritual truth cause we all are in the flesh after a natural truth right?
He says if we do not have the Spirit of Christ we are in the flesh. And, if we are in the flesh we have a flesh mind. Which is probably, like Eve, influenced by all sorts of extraneous demon spirits of lying and so forth.
I'm thinking this flesh mind is as good as it gets without Christ. And, as we know, the flesh is a roller coaster ride of hormones and desires. Then if the accuser moves into the top floor, annie bar the door, it can get really unpleasant.
But his mind is peace and love.
I agree but in otherwords he is also saying if we dont have the Spirit of Christ we are none of HIS :grin:
She was influenced by a desire to become wise and be like God knowing good and evil not by a doughnut or a hormone shower :grin:
doughnut? did you say doughnut? :happygrin:
Yes but she was deceived by him. She believed his lies that God was lying to her and she wouldn't die.
So there are other spirits floating around out there, all of them bad--and then there is the Spirit of Christ.
This flesh mind is the reason Paul keeps talking about his flesh as though it has a 'mind of its own.'
Of course, on the other hand, he gives us a heart of flesh so he can write on our hearts.
Why does our heart need to be flesh, but everywhere else flesh is enmity to God?
Then there's the circumcision of the heart.
Is this the Word become flesh all over again?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
Of course, on the other hand, he gives us a heart of flesh so he can write on our hearts.
Why does our heart need to be flesh, but everywhere else flesh is enmity to God?
Then there's the circumcision of the heart.
Is this the Word become flesh all over again?
Turn these stones to bread? :grin: Well a soft heart is better then a stony heart I suppose, but if Christ is fromed in us I would think the word becomes flesh in His body wouldnt you?
In his body? Not sure what you mean.
flesh mind is bad.
flesh heart is good.
I'm reducing this to its simplest components lol.
God has a soft heart and a mind like a steel trap. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:57:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
Of course, on the other hand, he gives us a heart of flesh so he can write on our hearts.
Why does our heart need to be flesh, but everywhere else flesh is enmity to God?
Then there's the circumcision of the heart.
Is this the Word become flesh all over again?
Turn these stones to bread? :grin: Well a soft heart is better then a stony heart I suppose, but if Christ is fromed in us I would think the word becomes flesh in His body wouldnt you?
In his body? Not sure what you mean.
flesh mind is bad.
flesh heart is good.
I'm reducing this to its simplest components lol.
God has a soft heart and a mind like a steel trap. :bigGrin:
Are you trying for the knowledge of what is good and evil? :grin:
He gives us a heart of flesh but doesnt want us to walk after the flesh? :grin:
I throw that on my list of "must ask Him about this" stuff lol
Yes a heart of flesh...that's why he tells us to guard our hearts. Doesn't he tell us that?
A heart of stone cannot forgive, cannot love.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:59:36 AM
ok how about ..."You cant throw a stone if its removed from ya"? :grin:
Anyone ever hurt another person by throwing flesh at them?
hmm good point.
Last time I checked, I have one stone pebble left in my heart...
More like a callous, really..
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 08:00:53 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:57:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
Of course, on the other hand, he gives us a heart of flesh so he can write on our hearts.
Why does our heart need to be flesh, but everywhere else flesh is enmity to God?
Then there's the circumcision of the heart.
Is this the Word become flesh all over again?
Turn these stones to bread? :grin: Well a soft heart is better then a stony heart I suppose, but if Christ is fromed in us I would think the word becomes flesh in His body wouldnt you?
In his body? Not sure what you mean.
flesh mind is bad.
flesh heart is good.
I'm reducing this to its simplest components lol.
God has a soft heart and a mind like a steel trap. :bigGrin:
Are you trying for the knowledge of what is good and evil? :grin:
He gives us a heart of flesh but doesnt want us to walk after the flesh? :grin:
I throw that on my list of "must ask Him about this" stuff lol
Yes a heart of flesh...that's why he tells us to guard our hearts. Doesn't he tell us that?
A heart of stone cannot forgive, cannot love.
I just throw up a shield and guard the entrance :grin:
That works. lol
He tells us to take every thought captive, too. So I guess once we have this mind of Christ and heart of flesh, we have to set up a fortress to guard them from outside influence? The armor of God.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 08:14:06 AM
Sure sounds like a sheild dont let those firey darts get cha
Yes, we get armed to the teeth and then he drives out our enemies before us.
My type of battle!
Quote from: Pierac on December 29, 2008, 04:51:04 AM
I think our Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father giving our Soul life. Our soul is our collective being, given life by the Spirit.
Then why would our spirit need to be sanctified, according to 1Thessalonians 5:23? Isn't God's Spirit already sanctified? Why would the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be invoked over our spirit, according to Philemon 1:25, 2Corinthians 9, Hebrews 4, etc.? Doesn't Holy Spirit already have God's grace invoked over His life? And why would we need to be renewed in the spirit of our mind, according to Ephesians 4:23-24, so that we'd wear the new man? Wouldn't Holy Spirit already have the new man?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:09:21 AM
I dont think the definition to eternal life is "to know God" rather it speaks of it by way of time verses intimacy
What about this?
3 Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3)
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:59:36 AM
Anyone ever hurt another person by throwing flesh at them?
They do it in boxing, wrestling, martial arts, and street fights all of the time.
Here's what somebody else says. He says the spirit is part of the soul...but it is the soul that gives us our individuality...(so, all spirits are the same? Not sure this makes much sense to me either)...
Question: Could you tell me the difference between "SOUL" and "SPIRIT"? It would be greatly appreciated if I could find out what the New Testament Greek language might have been to define the two. Many thanks.
Ray in Mesa, AZ
Hi Ray,
Concerning your question on the Soul versus the Spirit, let me first say it is a good one! There are some who don't believe there is a difference. This is due to the fact that the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh which means literally "life". It is also used for animals (Gen 1:20-24) and man as a whole person (Joshua 2:13, Exodus 21:23). The Hebrew texts denotes the spirit as "ruach" and refers to it as only the immaterial part of man (Num 16:22).
The greek of the New Testament makes things a little more clear. We know there is a difference between the soul (psyche) and the spirit (pneuma) by looking at Hebrews 4:12- "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..." .
The spirit is always referred to as the immaterial part of man. Man is not a spirit, he has a spirit. I believe the soul (psyche) is just what the greek word implies... the makeup of man. You are different from every other person. The thing that makes Raymond Raymond is the soul. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself. The spirit is how you relate to God. When you are reborn, you are born of spirit (John 3:5-6). The spirit is part of the soul, much like the mind is part of the soul. It is the soul, though, that comprises who you are.
Animals don't have a spirit per se- they don't seek God. Plants have a body, animals have a body and soul (they are capable of relating to man and other animals), but only man has a spirit. Both the soul and spirit pass when man dies, thus you will be recognizable as Raymond in the coming resurrection (ref Matt 17:3) and you will as a believer forever be able to fellowship with God. You will be given a new body (1 Cor 15:51-55), but you will be you.
http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo070.asp
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit [Pneuma], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh [sarx] is flesh [sarx]; and that which is born of the Spirit [Pneuma] is spirit[pneuma].
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
--John 3
Then again, this passage makes it sound like man born of woman cannot have spirit (pneuma). Pneuma can only be born of pneuma. He's saying we must be [born from above] to have pneuma.
And, here, he says you cannot even see (much less enter) the kingdom of God unless you are [born from above of Pneuma]
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
--John 3
Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members [parts of the body], warring against the law of my mind [nous], and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind [nous] I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh [sarx] the law of sin.
Rom 8: 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh[sarx], but after the Spirit [Pneuma].
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [sarx], God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh [sarx], and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh [sarx]:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh [sarx], but after the Spirit [Pneuma].
5For they that are after the flesh [sarx] do mind the things of the flesh [sarx]; but they that are after the Spirit [Pneuma] the things of the Spirit [Pneuma].
6For to be carnally [sarx] minded is death; but to be spiritually [pneuma] minded is life and peace.
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:53:16 PM
QuoteHi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.
You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:
Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:
Now have Good Day :icon_flower:
Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.
I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?
For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.
He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?
Quote from: Tony N on December 29, 2008, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:53:16 PM
QuoteHi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.
You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:
Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:
Now have Good Day :icon_flower:
Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.
I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?
For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.
He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?
well, I think what they are saying is that the tares are those who are flesh minded. And the wheat are those that are spiritually minded. But we can see from the scriptures posted above that the flesh minded can be born again into spirit. So all flesh has the potential to be born again. But even when we are born again into spirit, there are still elements of the flesh warring against elements of the spirit--as Paul tells us--so we have to train ourselves to walk after the spirit. So there still can be a mixture.
But, I think that in addition to that there can be those born of an evil spirit--like the Pharisees. That's why Jesus calls their father satan (who is spirit). Jesus tells them they are shutting the kingdom of heaven against those who are entering in. Well, they can't do that unless they can see it. And they can't see it, unless they are spirit. Although I'm sure this will be in dispute.
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 09:37:13 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:47:55 PM
QuoteIm more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.
Maybe this is what some dont understand sis, :dontknow:
No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .
:icon_flower:
Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?
I dont know, Id assume so ?
No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:
Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
mmm :icon_flower:
Very good Taffy. That is an excellent quote of 1 Corinthians 2:13.
But let's make sure we both understand it correctly. It doesn't say "comparing spiritual things with figurative." You hip to my trip?
What are the words which the holy spirit gave us? God's words are purified 7 times which are written in what we call the Bible. When the holy spirit said "aionian kolasin" it didn't mean "eternal torment." That's not spiritual. The proper spiritual words are "eonian chastening." And to match "spiritual blessings with spiritual words" as stated here in the Concordant Version:
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit,
matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words" means that God chose the exact words to use in the Scriptures which would match the actual blessings we receive now and in the future.
Are we on the same page?
Or do you see it differently?
Love!
Antonio
Just as the Levite priesthood is passed down from father to son on the basis of blood, so is the Melchizadek priesthood passed from Father to Son on the basis of an eternal life and an oath.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1
Quote from: Tony N on December 29, 2008, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:53:16 PM
QuoteHi Taffy,
So can I say that since Jesus isn't really coming back, just sort of spiritually, that I can say God isn't going to save all mankind? He'll just maybe give them each a 6 pack and a new T.V.? Of course those would be spiritual 6 packs and T.V.'s. They don't really get the reality.
You CAN say what Ya LIKE Tony :icon_flower: But it doesnt necessarily make it Fact :icon_flower:
Ya aint going to get a FIGHT out of me Bud.., ya been itching for one from the OFF :laughing7:
Now have Good Day :icon_flower:
Taffy, I hope you are just kidding about itching for a fight. I actually like you and don't want to fight anyone. I just like to get to the exactly what some of you actually mean.
I think some of you are confusing that which is figurative for spiritual. Believing what Christ said, now that's spiritual. Turning what Christ said as to His figures of speech into more figures of speech is being figurative, not spiritual. You dig?
For instance, Christ gave the literal meaning of what the figurative wheat and tares are. To turn His literal meaning back into a wholy different figure is not being spiritual.
He went from figurative to literal not from natural to spiritual in that message. Capish?
Hi Tony..Food fight bro :icon_king :
I dont disagree ,Christ gave the Literal explaination to the Tares and the Wheat , making it a Parable\allegory ,so again we are Back to Metaphors , and as all Parables for mine speak of the Kingdom , ..and then we are Back full circle to what we were discussing Tony, as the Outward man is Now Dead, this for me speaks to the INNERMAN,..could be perhaps why the pharisees etc couldnt understand, for ever Literally LOOKING for the Kingdom still to Come :icon_flower:
does not Faith
comes By Hearing ,Blessed are those who see AND hear, The rendering of the veil (of the heart and mind)..A burning of the Tares come harvest , speaks to me as Those Shown outwardly , as Christ commonly did Using the Pharisees , but equally speaks of what Happens To the Innerman...
:icon_flower:
Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok. I think they are of a different spirit (satan).
And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.
Because just being in spirit is not the solution. As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.
Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of, because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.
Col 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ..
Quote from: Tony N on December 29, 2008, 04:03:02 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 09:37:13 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 28, 2008, 08:47:55 PM
QuoteIm more of a comparer and I dont like to wrestle with things in the natural order of things (which to me) speak as a similitude of something higher in them.
Maybe this is what some dont understand sis, :dontknow:
No one is Stating dismiss the Natural order ,or the Literal , we need to see that first ,FIRST the Natural ..it doesnt say...Dismiss IT .
:icon_flower:
Absolutely, I didnt mean that comment as directed at you G, Its obvious to me our Lord came in the flesh and walked among us as one man, and not regarding him after the flesh is admonished but after the Spirit. Certainly its not dismissing the fact he did but regarding the Spiritual is where the life is for me. The apostles said the natural man cannot accept the things from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and even Paul said he could not talk to them as spiritual while they were yet carnal so I wonder, how did he talk to them while being somewhat as a mother nursing them waiting till Christ was formed in them? I can honestly say I sometimes dont know what folks are saying and Im sure they can say the same of myself because I know I lack in clarity alot, Im still learning of Him, and the more I learn the less I know :grin: But I think its better then anyone thinking they know anything at all. But I do think we can all hear the scriptures, though maybe not always what the Spirit might be saying always because there are those that apppear to hear the law and those that appear to hear and be led by the Spirit. There does seem to be a difference and there is definately the sense that Paul could not speak a certain way to one group of christians then to another thats undenialble so is speaking that way to them an advisable thing or more of a noteable example to any of us?
I dont know, Id assume so ?
No Fire, I was in agreement with your illustration, thanks for adding some
:icon_flower:
Just what did Paul mean by Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
mmm :icon_flower:
Very good Taffy. That is an excellent quote of 1 Corinthians 2:13.
But let's make sure we both understand it correctly. It doesn't say "comparing spiritual things with figurative." You hip to my trip?
What are the words which the holy spirit gave us? God's words are purified 7 times which are written in what we call the Bible. When the holy spirit said "aionian kolasin" it didn't mean "eternal torment." That's not spiritual. The proper spiritual words are "eonian chastening." And to match "spiritual blessings with spiritual words" as stated here in the Concordant Version:
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words" means that God chose the exact words to use in the Scriptures which would match the actual blessings we receive now and in the future.
Are we on the same page?
Or do you see it differently?
Love!
Antonio
mm not sure if im readin ya right T....but equally so, if ya will, not unlike Fire gave as an example...,First the Natural showing a SPIRITUAL Truth then comparing that with others the same way...which equally I seem to find Repeats the same message over and over,( Types, shadows ,similitudes)....Just worded Differently.. not unlike Like the parables, which all speak of the Kingdom.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:47:43 AM
He definately twisted what God said thats for sure neither abided in His words, though whats funny is after Jesus speaks to the Pharisees speaking about believing in Him and never dying they saw him as the serpent in the garden "ye shall not die" and they were like "NOW we KNOW you have a devil" !! :grin:
Same words different tree? :grin:
Fire, you just made my day with this..... :goodpost: :ty:
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:30:46 AM
Then if the accuser moves into the top floor, annie bar the door, it can get really unpleasant.
Cracked up on this line....Molly girl, you have a great sense of humor....... :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 04:44:26 PM
Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok. I think they are of a different spirit (satan).
And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.
Because just being in spirit is not the solution. As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.
Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of, because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.
Hi Molly :icon_flower:
The Pharisees epitomise the Enmity of the flesh, the carnal mind, Thier minds were sure warring with HIM.
Maybe I dont see it being that confusing Molly ...I see One Mind and Heart Destroyed,perishes (that being the carnal mind- the soul of MAN) being Re newed at Birth By HIS In US making us Whole , the marriage is Oneness, The battle is for THE MIND is to stay one in HIM and not fall away, finish the race.....
The battle with Principalites are Oracles,( in our minds) seems many of them at that Time still struggled From the Law and the Bondage of them.
:icon_flower:
:cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 04:59:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 04:44:26 PM
Taffy, I don't think the Pharisees are just flesh run amok. I think they are of a different spirit (satan).
And, I'm thinking more and more that the story of Jonathan and David describes more accurately our relationship to Christ--where their souls are knitted together.
Because just being in spirit is not the solution. As we can see, there is a war in the heavenlies, and we are battling against spirit, not flesh and blood.
Therefore, although we have the mind of Christ, it is not enough--our souls must be knitted together with the soul of Christ--that's the marriage that is being spoken of, because Christ is not just the mind of God, he is the very heart and soul of God.
Hi Molly :icon_flower:
The pharisees epitomise the Enmity of the flesh, the carnal mind, Thier minds were sure waring with HIM.
Maybe I dont see it being confusing Molly ...I see One Mind and Heart Destroyed,perishes (that being the carnal mind) the soul of MAN) being Re newed at Birth By HIS In US making us Whole , the marriage is Oneness, The battle is for THE MIND to stay one in HIM and not fall away, finish the race.....
The battle with Principalites are Oracles,( in our minds) seems many of them at that Time still struggledFrom the Law and the Bondage of them.
:icon_flower:
It's the knitting together of the souls that is the solution. That's why he keeps talking about I am in you and you are in me and we are in him. This idea of threads being wound around each other so you have one rope, and you can no longer tell one thread from another. That's what a vine does--it wraps itself around and around something else--and two vines doing that--you can't tell them apart--souls knit together.
I am the true vine... [Jn15]
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 05:07:07 PM
:cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....
yup ... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 05:07:07 PM
:cloud9: The Lord showed me the soul is our "Eve", and Eve is our stony heart. Bones are made of calcium (stony) and she was taken from a rib. Blessings....
Eve is a soul without a spirit. Her spirit is Adam. That is why she doesn't die (spiritually) until he eats.
QuoteIt's the knitting together of the souls that is the solution. That's why he keeps talking about I am in you and you are in me and we are in him. This idea of threads being wound around each other so you have one rope, and you can no longer tell one thread from another. That's what a vine does--it wraps itself around and around something else--and two vines doing that--you can't tell them apart--souls knit together
I like That Molly :thumbsup:
:cloud9: to Molly :thumbsup:
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
--Rev 6
[he..had] "a bow"
G5115
τόξον
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.
G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
--Gen 2
"rib"
H6763
צלעה צלע
tsêlâ‛ tsal‛âh
tsay-law', tsal-aw'
From H6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, that is, leaf); hence a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, that is, quarter); arcitecturally a timber (especially floor or ceiling) or plank (single or collectively, that is, a flooring): - beem, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).
H6760
צלע
tsâla‛
tsaw-lah'
A primitive root; probably to curve; used only as denominative from H6763, to limp (as if one sided): -
halt.
...and a crown was given unto him:.. [Rev 6]
"crown"
G4735
στέφανος
stephanos
stef'-an-os
From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.
1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
"knit"
H7194
קשׁר
qâshar
kaw-shar'
A primitive root; to tie, physically (gird, confine, compact) or mentally (in love, league): - bind (up), (make a) conspire (-acy, -ator), join together, knit, stronger, work [treason].
Philippians 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
:cloud9: The heart of flesh He gives us is Christ's flesh. Not flesh as we think of flesh, but celestial flesh, ie. not hardened by sin.
:cloud9: Thanks for the word post Molly....like I said in a previous post, rib and chamber are the same. Also years ago when I was studying this, it lines up with the sides of Noah's ark too; same word used. As is part of the wood in the tabernacle. He goes out of His way to leave a "bread trail" doesn't He, LOL?
Hi Tony,
Any confusion over the parables of Jesus or over the rest of the New Testament is from anyone that doesn't understand Mark chapter 4. That's Jesus's Rosetta Stone teaching. He said so Himself.
13 And He is saying to them, "Have you not perceived this parable? And how will you know all parables? (Mark 4:13 Concordant)
13 And he saith unto them - Know ye not this parable? How then will ye get to know all the parables? (Mark 4:13 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
13 And he saith to them, `Have ye not known this simile? and how shall ye know all the similes? (Mark 4:13 Young's Literal Translation)
If His Words mean anything at all, then the above means that Mark 4 interprets Matthew 24, Matthew 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, the book of Revelation, etc. Mark 4 is the parable to read with absolutely all of the parables and with any verse anywhere that's not coming through loud and clear. It's beyond just a dissection of the laws that govern gradual spiritual growth. It's the actual defining key to Scripture.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 06:27:13 PM
:cloud9: The heart of flesh He gives us is Christ's flesh. Not flesh as we think of flesh, but celestial flesh, ie. not hardened by sin.
wow!!!!!!!!
:bgdance:
That's it!!!!
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
--Heb 10
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 06:33:32 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 06:27:13 PM
:cloud9: The heart of flesh He gives us is Christ's flesh. Not flesh as we think of flesh, but celestial flesh, ie. not hardened by sin.
wow!!!!!!!!
:bgdance:
That's it!!!!
way to Go Molly :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 06:39:01 PM
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
--Heb 10
Aint no way stopping ya now Girl :icon_flower:
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.
amen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve :thumbsup:
She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
the wise woman / virgin Pro 31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Strong's H2938 - ta`am טעם
Transliteration
ta`am
Pronunciation
tä·am' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
815
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to taste, perceive, eat
a) (Qal) to taste
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 06:49:08 PM
I'm glad I so cracked up when I saw this too! :grin:I thought, dang this is a good example of how things can get royally screwed up calling good evil and evil good, or Christ a devil and the devil an angel :grin:
God said dont eat from "One Tree" cause you WILL DIE, the serpent says "NO you WILL NOT DIE" yet the OTHER Tree in the garden is the tree of life which contains words "LIVE for ever"... so Jesus speaks of believing and not dying and the pharasees who cant tell their right from their left accuses Him of being a devil :grin:
The Pharisees were also looking at the death of the BODY ...."the prophets are DEAD but YOU SAY" :grin: And mistook Him for the serpent in the garden after the wrong tree :grin:
Man, that so blessed me. It's another one of those things right in front of your face in plain sight but you don't see it until it's time. Thanks again..... :thumbsup:
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took [it], and did eat before them.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
and about the bone of Christ got mean structure or formed ?
it just says bone ?
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:01:18 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 06:57:00 PM
She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
the wise woman / virgin Pro 31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Strong's H2938 - ta`am טעם
Transliteration
ta`am
Pronunciation
tä·am' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
815
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to taste, perceive, eat
a) (Qal) to taste
Yeah taste and SEE the Lord is good huh? Verses seeing and not "percieving"?
yes sis , how we keep on hoping , or even wanting it to keep us alive , that desire within us , or to be honest i would have and have gave up
only to prove the God is faithful through Jesus Christ every time ! :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro
death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
So he has flesh and bone and we are his flesh and bone at the same time? It wasnt a sorta picture there of "My hands and feet" n regards to the body of Christ "the foot cannot say to the hand I have no need of you"? type thing?
I sorta look at this one differently
Hi Kimmy , you mean that work ,teaching sis
in power hands and feet ?
how differently sis ?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
So he has flesh and bone and we are his flesh and bone at the same time? It wasnt a sorta picture there of "My hands and feet" n regards to the body of Christ "the foot cannot say to the hand I have no need of you"? type thing?
I sorta look at this one differently
Both Eve and the resurrected Christ have flesh and bone. No mention of blood. Flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.
Normally you would say, flesh and blood. The heart is shared? The blood is shared?
IS THE SPIRIT natural ?
does it have a nature of its own origin?
natural - 11 dictionary results
nat⋅u⋅ral /ˈnætʃərəl, ˈnætʃrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [nach-er-uhl, nach-ruhl] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge.
2. based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.
3. of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.
4. of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.
5. in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.
6. growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
7. having undergone little or no processing and containing no chemical additives: natural food; natural ingredients. Compare organic (def. 11).
8. having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc. 9. of, pertaining to, or proper to the nature or essential constitution: natural ability.
10. proper to the circumstances of the case: a natural result of his greed.
11. free from affectation or constraint: a natural manner.
12. arising easily or spontaneously: a natural courtesy to strangers.
13. consonant with the nature or character of. 14. in accordance with the nature of things: It was natural that he should hit back.
15. based upon the innate moral feeling of humankind: natural justice.
16. in conformity with the ordinary course of nature; not unusual or exceptional.
17. happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without the intervention of accident, violence, etc.
18. related only by birth; of no legal relationship; illegitimate: a natural son. 19. related by blood rather than by adoption.
20. based on what is learned from nature rather than on revelation.
21. true to or closely imitating nature: a natural representation.
22. unenlightened or unregenerate: the natural man.
23. being such by nature; born such: a natural fool.
24. Music. a. neither sharp nor flat.
b. changed in pitch by the sign ♮.
25. not treated, tanned, refined, etc.; in its original or raw state: natural wood; natural cowhide.
26. (of a horn or trumpet) having neither side holes nor valves.
27. not tinted or colored; undyed.
28. having a pale tannish or grayish-yellow color, as many woods and untreated animal skins.
29. Cards. a. being a card other than a wild card or joker.
b. (of a set or sequence of cards) containing no wild cards.
30. having or showing feelings, as affection, gratitude, or kindness, considered part of basic human nature.
31. Afro (def. 1).
–noun 32. any person or thing that is or is likely or certain to be very suitable to and successful in an endeavor without much training or difficulty.
33. Music. a. a white key on a piano, organ, or the like.
b. the sign ♮, placed before a note, canceling the effect of a previous sharp or flat.
c. a note affected by a ♮, or a tone thus represented.
34. an idiot.
35. Cards. blackjack (def. 2b).
36. Afro (def. 2).
37. (in craps) a winning combination of seven or eleven made on the first cast.
38. a natural substance or a product made with such a substance: an ointment containing mink oil and other naturals.
I have not figured this one out yet :mshock:
Origin:
1300–50; ME < L nātūrālis (see nature, -al 1 ); r. ME naturel < MF < L, as above
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 06:54:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 06:27:13 PM
:cloud9: The heart of flesh He gives us is Christ's flesh. Not flesh as we think of flesh, but celestial flesh, ie. not hardened by sin.
Ok this makes sense if a fleshy heart (celestial) has bone in it if Eve is the BONE of my bone and flesh of my flesh...? I THINK? :grin:
So if Eve is comparable to the church herself and he resoreth MY SOUL, Eve is as the soul? :grin:
TRying to get all this :grin:
It says there is one flesh terrestrial and another celestial. The glorified body flesh is the "celestial". The works of His flesh are righteousness, peace, and joy. The works of our flesh are lasciviousness, lust, hate, ect. Flesh therefore is not physical flesh as we think of it, only.
The bones are the as the scriptures/letter. When we die to self (our flesh) we are as bones. When we allow Him to dry up all of His glory He has given us (gifts, callings, titles, leaving churches, ect.), we are then the DRY (Spirit withdrawn; the life is the blood, the marrow of the bones makes the blood) bones that Ezekiel prophesied over.
This has been the purpose of leaving things behind, feeling like He's barely there, not moving in the gifts anymore as much or at all, ect. This is the cross experience unfolding.
Then what has been happening is the glorified celestial flesh is being put on our "bones", ie. revelation. This is the reason for the outpouring of revelation. When Ezekiel spoke, it was for THIS generation. Blessings....
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:13:05 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
So he has flesh and bone and we are his flesh and bone at the same time? It wasnt a sorta picture there of "My hands and feet" n regards to the body of Christ "the foot cannot say to the hand I have no need of you"? type thing?
I sorta look at this one differently
Both Eve and the resurrected Christ have flesh and bone. No mention of blood. Flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.
Normally you would say, flesh and blood. The heart is shared? The blood is shared?
that is great Molly ,Makes perfect sense cause LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD!
the sacrifice of adam and eves was not perfect , the blood was not to be eaten! spilled only on the ground ...become new creatures
in Christ
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 06:49:37 PM
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.
amen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve :thumbsup:
Eat the celestrial bread of life, makes sense
:cloud9: I've having a hard time keeping up with you guys. Thanks going out to rosered and Molly for keeping the word on the screen. It takes me years to do that, LOL....
Anyway, Fire, He says He will sup with us if we will sup with Him. Sup there literally means to consume. So as we consume Him, He consumes us. So as we eat of the revelation it literally becomes part of the Christ that is being formed in us. Blessings....
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
I am glad cause it kinda has to quicken in me once again , that jolt of reality has to set in , clean and new once again :mblush:
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me. --Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:22:20 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 06:49:37 PM
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.
amen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve :thumbsup:
Eat the celestrial bread of life, makes sense
:cloud9: I've having a hard time keeping up with you guys. Thanks going out to rosered and Molly for keeping the word on the screen. It takes me years to do that, LOL....
Anyway, Fire, He says He will sup with us if we will sup with Him. Sup there literally means to consume. So as we consume Him, He consumes us. So as we eat of the revelation it literally becomes part of the Christ that is being formed in us. Blessings....
I so see that now Cardinal !
the Fire of Gods consuming us , and we eat , that may be why the broiled fish and honey was the new meal !! after Christ ressurection
and showing Himself to the students /disciples
fishers of men ?
and the honey sweet in your mouth and bitter in your belly ? the Joy and the judgments simultaneously working together for the good of those who Love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose
si⋅mul⋅ta⋅ne⋅ous
–adjective existing, occurring, or operating at the same time; concurrent: simultaneous movements; simultaneous translation. Origin:
1650–60; < L
simul together (see similar ) + (instan)taneous
Matthew 3:4
And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43And he took it, and did eat before them.
--Luke 24
The new priests get a better meal--fish instead of locusts, and the whole comb.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
awesome Molly ! :thumbsup: perfect verse sis!!!
this is all comes by'' revelation ''
a now process noun 1. the act of revealing or disclosing; disclosure.
2. something revealed or disclosed, esp. a striking disclosure, as of something not before realized.
3. Theology. a. God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.
b. an instance of such communication or disclosure.
c. something thus communicated or disclosed.
d. something that contains such disclosure, as the Bible.
4. (initial capital letter) Also called Revelations, The Revelation of St. John the Divine. the last book in the New Testament; the Apocalypse. Abbreviation: Rev.
Origin:
1275–1325; ME revelacion (< OF) < LL revēlātiōn- (s. of revēlātiō), equiv. to L revēlāt(us) (ptp. of revēlāre to reveal ) + -iōn- -ion
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:35:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
awesome Molly ! :thumbsup: perfect verse sis!!!
this is all comes by" revelation "a now process
noun 1. the act of revealing or disclosing; disclosure.
2. something revealed or disclosed, esp. a striking disclosure, as of something not before realized.
3. Theology. a. God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.
b. an instance of such communication or disclosure.
c. something thus communicated or disclosed.
d. something that contains such disclosure, as the Bible.
4. (initial capital letter) Also called Revelations, The Revelation of St. John the Divine. the last book in the New Testament; the Apocalypse. Abbreviation: Rev.
Origin:
1275–1325; ME revelacion (< OF) < LL revēlātiōn- (s. of revēlātiō), equiv. to L revēlāt(us) (ptp. of revēlāre to reveal ) + -iōn- -ion
Thank you for confirming that. I keep thinking I'm losing my mind.
LOL I have nothing left to lose but my mind.
:cloud9: Honey is a whole new topic rosered......wanna "rabbit track" for a moment? Honey speaks of revelation, which is only found as the carnal beastly nature (Satan goes about as a lion) is slain, as Samson illustrated for us.
Deborah means "bee", and it means to go in an orderly fashion, ie. the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord, the revelation by the Spirit is what orders our steps.
Her husband's name was Lapidoth, which means a "firebrand". The same word is used for the flame put in the EARTHEN pitchers of Gideon (means man of valor, feller of TREES, ie. the things planted in our hearts that are standing between us and God).
They walked around 7 TIMES (a time is 1000 years), and shouted (He descends with a shout, ie. to shout means the voice is RAISED, no longer speaking out of the dust realm), and the pitchers were BROKEN, revealing the light within. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:34:26 PM
Matthew 3:4
And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43And he took it, and did eat before them.
--Luke 24
The new priests get a better meal--fish instead of locusts, and the whole comb.
amen the new priesthood !! by mercy and grace , not sacrifice , this was done once for all time!! this blood of the new covenant
testament WILL /LAW OF GOD , A LIVING WILL !!8. Law. a. a legal declaration of a person's wishes as to the disposition of his or her property or estate after death, usually written and signed by the testator and attested by witnesses.
b. the document containing such a declaration.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:35:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
awesome Molly ! :thumbsup: perfect verse sis!!!
this is all comes by" revelation "a now process
noun 1. the act of revealing or disclosing; disclosure.
2. something revealed or disclosed, esp. a striking disclosure, as of something not before realized.
3. Theology. a. God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.
b. an instance of such communication or disclosure.
c. something thus communicated or disclosed.
d. something that contains such disclosure, as the Bible.
4. (initial capital letter) Also called Revelations, The Revelation of St. John the Divine. the last book in the New Testament; the Apocalypse. Abbreviation: Rev.
Origin:
1275–1325; ME revelacion (< OF) < LL revēlātiōn- (s. of revēlātiō), equiv. to L revēlāt(us) (ptp. of revēlāre to reveal ) + -iōn- -ion
Thank you for confirming that. I keep thinking I'm losing my mind.
LOL I have nothing left to lose but my mind.
I TOO DESIRE THE MIND OF CHRIST / ANNOINTING sis!
to be beheaded for His Testimony ! and be under that altar :thumbsup:
Gee Guys great thread..ya step away for a Mo and its flowing
Thank you for confirming that. I keep thinking I'm losing my mind.
LOL I have nothing left to lose but my mind
he ha Rosey ya Beat me to it.....Your on a Roll today :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:11:01 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
So he has flesh and bone and we are his flesh and bone at the same time? It wasnt a sorta picture there of "My hands and feet" n regards to the body of Christ "the foot cannot say to the hand I have no need of you"? type thing?
I sorta look at this one differently
Hi Kimmy , you mean that work ,teaching sisin power hands and feet ?
how differently sis ?
Nevrmind Rosie I just come at it differntly, its the same things just different words and applications to it, so Im working it from these angles and trying to find my way around :grin:
well when it comes so fast , you dont have time to think lol ...
Its kinda up the the Spirit of great grace to do His thing lol
I kinda get caught up in the whirl of it all :thumbsup:
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
--Job 19
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
:cloud9: Honey is a whole new topic rosered......wanna "rabbit track" for a moment? Honey speaks of revelation, which is only found as the carnal beastly nature (Satan goes about as a lion) is slain, as Samson illustrated for us.
Deborah means "bee", and it means to go in an orderly fashion, ie. the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord, the revelation by the Spirit is what orders our steps.
Her husband's name was Lapidoth, which means a "firebrand". The same word is used for the flame put in the EARTHEN pitchers of Gideon (means man of valor, feller of TREES, ie. the things planted in our hearts that are standing between us and God).
They walked around 7 TIMES (a time is 1000 years), and shouted (He descends with a shout, ie. to shout means the voice is RAISED, no longer speaking out of the dust realm), and the pitchers were BROKEN, revealing the light within. Blessings....
WOW ! Cardinal , just keeps confirming the old and new within me sis!
these things we all have studied before , and it kinda kicks them into place for ya , love them voices of many waters from above !
just shows me how much Gods Faithfulness is towards us all here today is , I was ready to all but give up the ghost , and dry bones and all to dust and ashes and be scattered in the wind for another revival
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
:cloud9: Honey is a whole new topic rosered......wanna "rabbit track" for a moment? Honey speaks of revelation, which is only found as the carnal beastly nature (Satan goes about as a lion) is slain, as Samson illustrated for us.
Deborah means "bee", and it means to go in an orderly fashion, ie. the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord, the revelation by the Spirit is what orders our steps.
Her husband's name was Lapidoth, which means a "firebrand". The same word is used for the flame put in the EARTHEN pitchers of Gideon (means man of valor, feller of TREES, ie. the things planted in our hearts that are standing between us and God).
They walked around 7 TIMES (a time is 1000 years), and shouted (He descends with a shout, ie. to shout means the voice is RAISED, no longer speaking out of the dust realm), and the pitchers were BROKEN, revealing the light within. Blessings....
WOW ! Cardinal , just keeps confirming the old and new within me sis!
these things we all have studied before , and it kinda kicks them into place for ya , love them voices of many waters from above !
just shows me how much Gods Faithfulness is towards us all here today is , I was ready to all but give up the ghost , and dry bones and all to dust and ashes and be scattered in the wind for another revival
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:13:05 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
So he has flesh and bone and we are his flesh and bone at the same time? It wasnt a sorta picture there of "My hands and feet" n regards to the body of Christ "the foot cannot say to the hand I have no need of you"? type thing?
I sorta look at this one differently
Both Eve and the resurrected Christ have flesh and bone. No mention of blood. Flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.
Normally you would say, flesh and blood. The heart is shared? The blood is shared?
I sorta see it as SHE is HIS flesh and bone (Body/Church) and HE is the LIFE (as life is in the blood poured out for us) We drink His blood, His life dont we?
Im not sure yet about sharing his heart, mine cannot compare to His so i dont even want to make a comparison :grin:
He promises us a new heart for Him, that is His Flesh sis , new creature is what we become
that does His will ..Eze 36:26 A
new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And
I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. this may be the resurrection Ezek was seeing when Christ come
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
LOl now THATS exactly what I was trying to say to Rose, that I saw it differently... A BODY prepared, HIS HANDS and FEET ......BODY FOR **ME** Christ IN YOU :grin:
Geez, He's flying so fast here with y'all I can't keep up. Had to sit back for a few......I see it two ways. A body prepared, ie. His flesh body He came in, for I see Him as the Word that is Spirit that existed before the flesh body of Jesus He came in.
And, I also can see the body prepared as being our bodies, His temple. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:54:12 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
:cloud9: Honey is a whole new topic rosered......wanna "rabbit track" for a moment? Honey speaks of revelation, which is only found as the carnal beastly nature (Satan goes about as a lion) is slain, as Samson illustrated for us.
Deborah means "bee", and it means to go in an orderly fashion, ie. the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord, the revelation by the Spirit is what orders our steps.
Her husband's name was Lapidoth, which means a "firebrand". The same word is used for the flame put in the EARTHEN pitchers of Gideon (means man of valor, feller of TREES, ie. the things planted in our hearts that are standing between us and God).
They walked around 7 TIMES (a time is 1000 years), and shouted (He descends with a shout, ie. to shout means the voice is RAISED, no longer speaking out of the dust realm), and the pitchers were BROKEN, revealing the light within. Blessings....
WOW ! Cardinal , just keeps confirming the old and new within me sis!
these things we all have studied before , and it kinda kicks them into place for ya , love them voices of many waters from above !
just shows me how much Gods Faithfulness is towards us all here today is , I was ready to all but give up the ghost , and dry bones and all to dust and ashes and be scattered in the wind for another revival
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
thanks Molly , the verses are ALIVE TODAY! Breathing even! at just the right place and right on time!! great all of them sis !
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:52:28 PM
just shows me how much Gods Faithfulness is towards us all here today is , I was ready to all but give up the ghost , and dry bones and all to dust and ashes and be scattered in the wind for another revival
Amen, I know I've been walking through death.......thank You Father.......
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
LOl now THATS exactly what I was trying to say to Rose, that I saw it differently... A BODY prepared, HIS HANDS and FEET ......BODY FOR **ME** Christ IN YOU :grin:
Geez, He's flying so fast here with y'all I can't keep up. Had to sit back for a few......I see it two ways. A body prepared, ie. His flesh body He came in, for I see Him as the Word that is Spirit that existed before the flesh body of Jesus He came in.
And, I also can see the body prepared as being our bodies, His temple. Blessings....
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:49:42 PM
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
--Job 19
I like that it says AFTER the skin worms destroy the body YET in MY FLESH I shall see God...we shall see Him as He is, for as He is so are we in this world
Yes, but what flesh is it? I see it as the glorified flesh. We are seeing God in our glorified flesh now, in the sense that revelation is Him putting flesh on our bones. blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
LOl now THATS exactly what I was trying to say to Rose, that I saw it differently... A BODY prepared, HIS HANDS and FEET ......BODY FOR **ME** Christ IN YOU :grin:
Geez, He's flying so fast here with y'all I can't keep up. Had to sit back for a few......I see it two ways. A body prepared, ie. His flesh body He came in, for I see Him as the Word that is Spirit that existed before the flesh body of Jesus He came in.
And, I also can see the body prepared as being our bodies, His temple. Blessings....
ironically sis , its in the volomn of the book ! the names are written in the book of Life , that tree them pages men as trees walking ! so cool , it is all fitting so well ! His being the HEAD of all authority ! ruling and reigining now! ha ha :thumbsup:
we are under His Head and a partaker with Him !! that Name under heaven that NAME WHERE life dwelss with Him
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
LOl now THATS exactly what I was trying to say to Rose, that I saw it differently... A BODY prepared, HIS HANDS and FEET ......BODY FOR **ME** Christ IN YOU :grin:
Geez, He's flying so fast here with y'all I can't keep up. Had to sit back for a few......I see it two ways. A body prepared, ie. His flesh body He came in, for I see Him as the Word that is Spirit that existed before the flesh body of Jesus He came in.
And, I also can see the body prepared as being our bodies, His temple. Blessings....
ironically sis , its in the volomn of the book ! the names are written in the book of Life , that tree them pages men as trees walking ! so cool , it is all fitting so well ! His being the HEAD of all authority ! ruling and reigining now! ha ha :thumbsup:
6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.--Psa 40
Yo Kim.
Keepin up with Rosey on her own when shes like this is enough.. :HeartThrob: ..Molly got in the Flow early doors,Then Card...and NOW :bgdance:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:59:42 PM
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
I have to share with you that I have an old, old Strong's and the word for mansions in it has another meaning of "nests". The Strongs have since changed it, but that's what it says. And it makes sense if you understand we are compared to eagles who eat live food, and make their nests in the cliffs of the highest mountains, and fly above the storms. And also, He appeared to the Jews as El Shaddai in nature when He was weeping over Jerusalem, ie. wanting to sweep them up in His wings. Just another rabbit track, LOL....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 08:07:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:59:42 PM
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
I have to share with you that I have an old, old Strong's and the word for mansions in it has another meaning of "nests". The Strongs have since changed it, but that's what it says. And it makes sense if you understand we are compared to eagles who eat live food, and make their nests in the cliffs of the highest mountains, and fly above the storms. And also, He appeared to the Jews as El Shaddai in nature when He was weeping over Jerusalem, ie. wanting to sweep them up in His wings. Just another rabbit track, LOL....
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. --Psa 91
Feathers! lol
I Lord God i love you all , I want to stay right here in this place !
the largeness of heart!
it will go and come again surely as the Lord Lives! Strong's H3820 - leb לב
Transliteration
leb
Pronunciation
lāb (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
a form of H3824
TWOT Reference
1071a
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon/son of peace wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.
1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
we are wiser now than the world , but still much to learn /obey
I think its a start!
thanks be to Gods grace and Christ sacrifice for giving it to us now
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 08:09:58 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 07:04:38 PM
Quoteamen no more eating DUST!! but His flesh where the LIFE IS!!
the mind / womb , eve can concieve / recieve
:cloud9:
Hi Rosey .... :icon_flower:
Hi Bro death and dust are the same flesh to me ! this promise of God can never ever be broken
in adam all die , this is what he was formed out of
Jesus Christ was never formed out of dust , He was concived by the HOLY GHOST in His mothers womb Jesus was sent He was always a different flesh bro!! from the start
yup sis.I :HeartThrob: see that Too....
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
--Heb 10
OMG The body is us! :mshock:
LOl now THATS exactly what I was trying to say to Rose, that I saw it differently... A BODY prepared, HIS HANDS and FEET ......BODY FOR **ME** Christ IN YOU :grin:
Geez, He's flying so fast here with y'all I can't keep up. Had to sit back for a few......I see it two ways. A body prepared, ie. His flesh body He came in, for I see Him as the Word that is Spirit that existed before the flesh body of Jesus He came in.
And, I also can see the body prepared as being our bodies, His temple. Blessings....
Is it Jesus Christ HAS come in the flesh, or Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh?
I forget where I pulled this verse :grin:
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts
I love that one, even if its for judgment
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. --Rev 1
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 08:10:56 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 08:07:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 07:59:42 PM
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
I have to share with you that I have an old, old Strong's and the word for mansions in it has another meaning of "nests". The Strongs have since changed it, but that's what it says. And it makes sense if you understand we are compared to eagles who eat live food, and make their nests in the cliffs of the highest mountains, and fly above the storms. And also, He appeared to the Jews as El Shaddai in nature when He was weeping over Jerusalem, ie. wanting to sweep them up in His wings. Just another rabbit track, LOL....
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
--Psa 91
Feathers! lol
LOL :thumbsup:
thanks Kimmy Card , Taff Molly , man / sions
the word Sion / zion ., is the raised up sechulpher tumuluant
Christ !
He come to set fire on the earth and was straighteted till it be accomplished ! HE IS THE FIRE OF GODS LOVE AND CONSUMING
Sion or Zion = "a parched place"
1) the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
a) the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
2) often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
3) since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God
CITY OF DAVID/BELOVED , MERCY
2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same [is] the city of David.
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:11:48 PM
I Lord God i love you all , I want to stay right here in this place !
the largeness of heart!
it will go and come again surely as the Lord Lives! Strong's H3820 - leb לב
Transliteration
leb
Pronunciation
lāb (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
a form of H3824
TWOT Reference
1071a
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon/son of peace wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.
1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
we are wiser now than the world , but still much to learn /obey
I think its a start!
thanks be to Gods grace and Christ sacrifice for giving it to us now
Ezekiel 10:3
Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Gen 2
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 08:22:31 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:11:48 PM
I Lord God i love you all , I want to stay right here in this place !
the largeness of heart!
it will go and come again surely as the Lord Lives! Strong's H3820 - leb לב
Transliteration
leb
Pronunciation
lāb (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
a form of H3824
TWOT Reference
1071a
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon/son of peace wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.
1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
we are wiser now than the world , but still much to learn /obey
I think its a start!
thanks be to Gods grace and Christ sacrifice for giving it to us now
Ezekiel 10:3
Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Gen 2
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
amazing sis the old and new again!
egypt , meaning the world
and the children of the east ? Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the
inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were] about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
so much is comming and dividing and seperating in my mind lol , I can hardly sit still lol
Eagles . . I love the study of eagles!
One of the coolest things I learned about them is when they molt. When an eagle molts, it searches out an isolated place of solitude. It's beak becomes dull, it's wings won't let it fly, it can easily die in it's "earth bound" condition. It's vulnerable now to animals of prey. It can no longer fly above in the safey of the invisible wind. Then an awesome thing happens . . .other eagles appear overhead with fresh meat . . .as they fly over, they drop the meat to the molting one. They keep watch for prey . .and what's coolest of all for me is, they scream down at the molting eagle to let it know that it's not alone . . that it's being watched over, that it's being protected until it's NEW FEATHERS can grow back IN PLACE OF THE OLD ONES.
They say after an eagle has gone through the molting stage, he comes out stronger than he ever was before he went in.
In Matthew 24, when Jesus just described the events that were to unfold . .in fact, it's the next breath after talking about the lightning going from east to west . . many choose to apply this to be literal . . .but they're cutting out this next verse that the disciples themselves are asking "where" will this happen?
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
We are the eagles . . this is not saying that when you literally see natural eagles congregating together you're going to see Jesus appear there . . this is saying that Jesus reveals himself to those who come together and feast on the carcass, the body of Christ. Christ MUST be my centerpiece in all things. And as it closes out with verse 29, the sun, moon and stars are representative of the nation of Israel, her light went out when she was destroyed in A.D. 70 and the powers of heaven. . .Israel's entire belief system, was totally shaken . . there was even a literal earthquake at the death of Christ. What we see in the natural are things that have already transpired in the spirit.
Gotta love the eagles. There is no effort in flying, you just simply open your wings of faith and let the invisible things elevate you above all the earth-ridden noise into the limitless glory of his Truth and light.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:22:12 PM
thanks Kimmy Card , Taff Molly , man / sions
the word Sion / zion ., is the raised up sechulpher tumuluant
Christ !
He come to set fire on the earth and was straighteted till it be accomplished ! HE IS THE FIRE OF GODS LOVE AND CONSUMING
Sion or Zion = "a parched place"
1) the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
a) the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
2) often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
3) since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God
CITY OF DAVID/BELOVED , MERCY
2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same [is] the city of David.
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
4Among those who know me I mention Rahab and Babylon;
behold, Philistia and Tyre, with Cush—
"This one was born there," they say.
5And of Zion it shall be said,
"This one and that one were born in her";
for the Most High himself will establish her.
6The LORD records as he registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
Selah
--Psa 87
"Zion"H6726
ציּון
tsîyôntsee-yone'
The same (regular) as H6725; Tsijon (as a permanent capital), a mountain of Jerusalem: - Zion.
H6725ציוּן
tsîyûntsee-yoon'
From the same as H6723 in the sense of conspicuousness (compare H5329); a monumental or guiding pillar: - sign, title, waymark.
H6723ציּה
tsîyâhtsee-yaw'
From an unused root meaning
to parch; aridity; concretely a desert: - barren, drought, dry (land, place), solitary place,
wilderness.
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Quote from: Nathan on December 29, 2008, 08:29:41 PM
Eagles . . I love the study of eagles!
One of the coolest things I learned about them is when they molt. When an eagle molts, it searches out an isolated place of solitude. It's beak becomes dull, it's wings won't let it fly, it can easily die in it's "earth bound" condition. It's vulnerable now to animals of prey. It can no longer fly above in the safey of the invisible wind. Then an awesome thing happens . . .other eagles appear overhead with fresh meat . . .as they fly over, they drop the meat to the molting one. They keep watch for prey . .and what's coolest of all for me is, they scream down at the molting eagle to let it know that it's not alone . . that it's being watched over, that it's being protected until it's NEW FEATHERS can grow back IN PLACE OF THE OLD ONES.
They say after an eagle has gone through the molting stage, he comes out stronger than he ever was before he went in.
In Matthew 24, when Jesus just described the events that were to unfold . .in fact, it's the next breath after talking about the lightning going from east to west . . many choose to apply this to be literal . . .but they're cutting out this next verse that the disciples themselves are asking "where" will this happen?
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
We are the eagles . . this is not saying that when you literally see natural eagles congregating together you're going to see Jesus appear there . . this is saying that Jesus reveals himself to those who come together and feast on the carcass, the body of Christ. Christ MUST be my centerpiece in all things. And as it closes out with verse 29, the sun, moon and stars are representative of the nation of Israel, her light went out when she was destroyed in A.D. 70 and the powers of heaven. . .Israel's entire belief system, was totally shaken . . there was even a literal earthquake at the death of Christ. What we see in the natural are things that have already transpired in the spirit.
Gotta love the eagles. There is no effort in flying, you just simply open your wings of faith and let the invisible things elevate you above all the earth-ridden noise into the limitless glory of his Truth and light.
Very nice and helpful, thanks!
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 08:30:50 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:22:12 PM
thanks Kimmy Card , Taff Molly , man / sions
the word Sion / zion ., is the raised up sechulpher tumuluant
Christ !
He come to set fire on the earth and was straighteted till it be accomplished ! HE IS THE FIRE OF GODS LOVE AND CONSUMING
Sion or Zion = "a parched place"
1) the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
a) the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
2) often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
3) since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God
CITY OF DAVID/BELOVED , MERCY
2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same [is] the city of David.
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
2Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Woohoooo Rose!! :grin:
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. :HeartThrob:
these posts are flying lol.
I want to thank who so ever prayed , cause they are effectual prayers and GOD HEARD! GOD IS GREAT! :HeartThrob:
THE dry acrid place dessert reminds me of this !
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
what could this be but the dividing of us all ? the old and new the the Law of Liberty in effect !
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
Jam 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jam 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jam 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
what do you make of rejoicing in mercy against judgment ??
Nice addition Nat :icon_flower:
Somewhere back there it was shown to me that the new priests are born of [sons of] grace and mercy--but it flew by so fast, I'll never find it again.
Ah, Rachel (the second wife) was the beloved wife, not Leah.
Christ is the son of David and the Lord of David--
David, meaning, beloved.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:40:40 PM
these posts are flying lol.
I want to thank who so ever prayed , cause they are effectual prayers and GOD HEARD! GOD IS GREAT! :HeartThrob:
THE dry acrid place dessert reminds me of this !
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
what could this be but the dividing of us all ? the old and new the the Law of Liberty in effect !
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
Jam 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jam 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jam 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
what do you make of rejoicing in mercy against judgment ??
He is warning us to stay under the law of liberty, lest we be judged without mercy as we judged others.
The weightier matters of the law include mercy and faith--they are the heart of the Father. If you miss mercy, you miss Jesus.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. --Mat 23
Psalm 13:5
But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
..my heart shall rejoice in Y'shû‛âh.
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:38:43 PM
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. :HeartThrob:
yo Rosey
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with
open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from
glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ya Reckon This Sea, are those who Dwelt in the waters Beneath ,Those who BUILT their Houses On sand?..doesnt SAND make Glass when enough HEATS applied , Christ Being the Source thats Mingled with it...those moving from the Glory of the OLD to The TRUE GLORY of the NEW
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2008, 08:40:40 PM
these posts are flying lol.
I want to thank who so ever prayed , cause they are effectual prayers and GOD HEARD! GOD IS GREAT! :HeartThrob:
THE dry acrid place dessert reminds me of this !
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
what could this be but the dividing of us all ? the old and new the the Law of Liberty in effect !
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
Jam 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jam 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jam 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
what do you make of rejoicing in mercy against judgment ??
YUPPER..great Post
Ive seen this Battle of the Covenants FOR sometime too s..Old man v New Man
Frogs are Unclean spirits who UTTER lies, Kinda seen them as those Like Legion , bound by law...those who LIE against the TRUTH
Luk 6:18 And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.
Christ In us is Suffice , for those who DONT hear..cast the DUST( dead)off your FEET, as In Let the Dead Bury the DEAD
Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for [their] journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in [their] purse:
Mar 6:9 But [be] shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
Mar 6:10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Mar 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed [them].
missed this bit :icon_flower:
Quotewhat do you make of rejoicing in mercy against judgment ??
TRUE JUDGMENT sis, HIS...
Zec 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
Execute true judgment, and
shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Psa 89:14 Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
For one to be SHOWN Mercy one must GIVE IT, The Good samaritan
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that
shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Shown some in this parable
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
I want to thank whosoever prayed, cause they are effectual prayers and GOD HEARD!
"In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." (2 Thessalonians 5:18)
Pray without ceasing and rejoice always with the fruit of your lips; the mouthpiece of the heart!
GOD IS GREAT! :HeartThrob:
peacemaker
GREAT POSTING GUYS!! :goodpost: :myahoo: :angel5:
i had to go get my man ready for work!
I come back and it is still awesome things being laid before our eyes!
YES the glass bro ! crystal ! rev 22 :1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal. It was flowing from the throne of God and the lamb..........
and Molly great points about the Laws of Liberty sis ! His rule /reign !
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 10:28:08 PM
I want to thank whosoever prayed, cause they are effectual prayers and GOD HEARD!
"In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." (2 Thessalonians 5:18)
Pray without ceasing and rejoice always with the fruit of your lips; the mouthpiece of the heart!
GOD IS GREAT! :HeartThrob:
peacemaker
good addage Peacemaker ! :thumbsup: in both replys !
QuoteSo let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
the Lord Jesus Christ come to give understanding !
spiritual understanding !!
synesis
Pronunciation
from G4920
Outline of Biblical Usage 1)
a running together, a flowing together with
2) knowledge
a) understanding
b) the understanding, i.e the mind so far forth as it understandsWho also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you,
and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
:cloud9: Had to take a break awhile back guys......good posts all........praise the Lord! :thumbsup:
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
I just reread the posts I missed again, and this one hit. I never noticed this line before in that way. WOW....thanks for posting........Blessings...
PS. Nathan, I loved the eagles one. I had the coolest story about that a long time ago and I don't know what I did with it. It had something in there about 7 years, and them taking their beak off on a ROCK, ect. There was so much in there that points to the overcomers it was awesome.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 10:43:16 PM
:cloud9: Had to take a break awhile back guys......good posts all........praise the Lord! :thumbsup:
Me too :grin: Got Rose on the phone now! be back :grin:
see ya Tomorrow then :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
I just reread the posts I missed again, and this one hit. I never noticed this line before in that way. WOW....thanks for posting........Blessings...
Card
PM is normally a man of few words, But they always are Pertinent :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 10:43:16 PM
:cloud9: Had to take a break awhile back guys......good posts all........praise the Lord! :thumbsup:
Me too :grin: Got Rose on the phone now! be back :grin:
Unfair!!
well then I'll just call Jesus on our private line..
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2008, 11:56:53 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 10:43:16 PM
:cloud9: Had to take a break awhile back guys......good posts all........praise the Lord! :thumbsup:
Me too :grin: Got Rose on the phone now! be back :grin:
Unfair!!
well then I'll just call Jesus on our private line..
heres the Number Molly.....888
I looked up and saw a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 I asked, "Where are you going?"
He answered me, "To measure Jerusalem to determine its width and length."
3 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and another angel went out to meet him. 4 He said to him, "Run and tell this young man: Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the number of people and livestock in it." 5 The declaration of the LORD: "I will be a wall of fire around it, and I will be the glory within it."
6 "Get up! Leave the land of the north" —the LORD's declaration—"for I have scattered you like the four winds of heaven"—the LORD's declaration. 7 "Go, Zion! Escape, you who are living with Daughter Babylon." 8 For the LORD of Hosts says this: "He has sent Me for [His] glory against the nations who are plundering you, for anyone who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. 9 I will move against them with My power, and they will become plunder for their own servants. Then you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me.
10 "Daughter Zion, shout for joy and be glad, for I am coming to dwell among you"—the LORD's declaration. 11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD on that day and become My people. I will dwell among you, and you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me to you. 12 The LORD will take possession of Judah as His portion in the Holy Land, and He will once again choose Jerusalem. 13 Let all people [flesh] be silent before the LORD, for He is coming from His holy dwelling."
--Zech 2
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:15:24 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 29, 2008, 10:54:11 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 29, 2008, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 10:43:16 PM
:cloud9: Had to take a break awhile back guys......good posts all........praise the Lord! :thumbsup:
Me too :grin: Got Rose on the phone now! be back :grin:
see ya Tomorrow then :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
The sarcasm is really loud in here today :grin: just got off the phone with her.....Im back, (and its not "tommorrow") though it did take the whole day :grin:
You's till around..?
Mollys "private line" with Jesus :grin:
Sorry Sis yous wrong......Tis 12.15 am here...you girlies talk tooooooooo much, ..yehaaaaaa
and No I went too bed an Hour ago :laughing7:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:21:25 AM
Alrighty...I forgot MY today is YOUR tommorrow, welp we just be hens chatting up a storm, its a woman THANG but you are rather good at it as a man :laughing7:
Ok so you went to sleep an hour ago and so that means your sleep talking with me then? :grin:
Well you Girlies always Did dress me up wid a Skirt..What AM I doing with you Guys..Im an Alpha Male...., summats gone wrong somewheres :laughing7:
yup..went to sleep, Died a Little, Rose from My slumber and Found out it wasnt a DREAM after all :happy3:..ive always BEEN alive, Just didnt KNOW IT
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:26:50 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
This is profound is right peacemaker :thumbsup:
Ironically elsewhere it says the Lord comes to give us an understanding
Great verse!
Word of warning sis..got to Know PM from another forum, Kinda strayed over here..
Like I mentioned to Card,..What hes led to share Is Most pertinent, BE it small in verse...Tis a Matter of the HEART :icon_flower:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:28:36 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:25:31 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:21:25 AM
Alrighty...I forgot MY today is YOUR tommorrow, welp we just be hens chatting up a storm, its a woman THANG but you are rather good at it as a man :laughing7:
Ok so you went to sleep an hour ago and so that means your sleep talking with me then? :grin:
Well you Girlies always Did dress me up wid a Skirt..What AM I doing with you Guys..Im an Alpha Male...., summats gone wrong somewheres :laughing7:
yup..went to sleep, Died a Little, Rose from My slumber and Found out it wasnt a DREAM after all :happy3:..ive always BEEN alive, Just didnt KNOW IT
You up for a little while? I got to throw on some eggs for the hubby real fast you gonna be around? Or are you headed off to bed?
Whats Sleep..Martins Given me some of His Stay awake pills...lol
Yeah..ill be around for an hour or so :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Now how do you know I talk to much ? :mlaugh: :blah: :shout:
I am so glad you are doing much better bro , hope you are healing well and God love ya , you are able to be with us still !
love ya bits bro ... rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:40:04 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Now how do you know I talk to much ? :mlaugh: :blah: :shout:
I am so glad you are doing much better bro , hope you are healing well and God love ya , you are able to be with us still !
love ya bits bro ... rose :HeartThrob:
Sis Your always so thoughtful of My condition...thank you :HeartThrob:
But its still the same Girl..back to the bandages and Acid once again..tis never ending girl.... :gangel: hearing you and other talking takes my mind of it some, So Please dont Stop :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Actually she does alot of the listening, I even told her shes an excellent listener, she let me yap alot. She lends a good ear, it was my phone bateries that died in this conversation, usually its hers :grin:
She bought a kickbutt new phone battery, Im atually jealous and I COVET it
and I repent too
Truths now coming out egh :laughing7: Tis your fault, and when did you learn to Talk so muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch :icon_jokercolor:
Tent will be Increasing its Bandwidth Just for you :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
wont be long for sleepies ,Tis Play time for me... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Actually she does alot of the listening, I even told her shes an excellent listener, she let me yap alot. She lends a good ear, it was my phone bateries that died in this conversation, usually its hers :grin:
She bought a kickbutt new phone battery, Im atually jealous and I COVET it
and I repent too
lol, :mfriends: :flowerred:
was checking on Peacmakers posts lol
our ol buddy from Flagstaff ARIZONA
Indeed, Taffy, it's a matter of the heart!
And, thanks for the welcome.
Jer (aka, Peacemaker) Who is Jer?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 02:52:53 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:44:54 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:40:04 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:36:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 02:33:57 AM
Just got on once again , and its nightys time for the Grahamster eh ?
hey where did everybody go??????? cooking eggs ? :mnah:
yya Talk tooooo much Rosey..you and Kimmy are like a soap Opera...he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Busting on yas
theyll be back girl.....but then Ill be sleepies
Now how do you know I talk to much ? :mlaugh: :blah: :shout:
I am so glad you are doing much better bro , hope you are healing well and God love ya , you are able to be with us still !
love ya bits bro ... rose :HeartThrob:
Sis Your always so thoughtful of My condition...thank you :HeartThrob:
But its still the same Girl..back to the bandages and Acid once again..tis never ending girl.... :gangel: hearing you and other talking takes my mind of it some, So Please dont Stop :HeartThrob:
Acid too Graham? Im sorry bud I didnt mean to not ask you how things been going for you, I sometimes forget when I see you on hear out and about that you been through what you've been through, I complain more then you do and yet you have MORE to complain about (and never do) and I think... "He's doing better" but I dont see you in person and its so much easier to forget (not the you suffer) but that you are suffering at all even as you post, your always so happy and encouraging to folks, I'd be A BEAR...Im not as good at it...I remind me of Isrealites murmuring and complaining, what a drag! I must work on Gods last nerve, I must stop doing that :msealed:
Hugs bro :HeartThrob:
He he sis..No complaints.....
the acid, is to cortisize this over granulation,,got rid of it once, but like so many other things..came back again...stings a tab,no worries sis,tis Nothing....have more to suffer than that :icon_flower:
And Yup...these forums never see the FULL person sis...How can One Guage?
We all have suffering to some degree sis...and I know you Know what I mean :HeartThrob: id take this ANY DAY
I learned it through YOU actually I was more quiet when we met recall? It was your influence you are like a girl, never met a guy like you, all day and night tea parties of revelatory things of God, they were the best werent they? :grin:
I like phone now, its harder for me to type, I said to Rose I feel like that dude in scripture which must lay on his side and type for so many days then flip over like a pancake and do it on the other side...Just as long as Im not cooking over dung its good to go :grin:
Com on! I have been short and sweet and not as longwinded as usual, praise God for that He is sparing ya :grin:
[/quote]
Ezekiel had to lay on sides too , lol Kimmy you did say that sis ! OMG !! :laughing7:
i AM just so glad you are both here now , love you and all to pieces
:HeartThrob:
the suffering part is the part we would love to go without , but it is also part of the process , there is Light at the end of the tunnel
Thanking God for the mercy I know of Him today .. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 03:14:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:02:47 AM
Ezekiel had to lay on sides too , lol Kimmy you did say that sis ! OMG !! :laughing7:
Thats HIS name Rose! I forgot which one did that weird thing, I betcha it seemed pretty pointless to him too :grin:
Not that im complaining :msealed:
HA ha ha!! yeppers Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it [for] a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This [shall be] a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4
Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them,
lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days:
I have appointed thee each day for a year.
wonder what this really means ?? :dontknow:
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:21:29 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 03:14:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:02:47 AM
Ezekiel had to lay on sides too , lol Kimmy you did say that sis ! OMG !! :laughing7:
Thats HIS name Rose! I forgot which one did that weird thing, I betcha it seemed pretty pointless to him too :grin:
Not that im complaining :msealed:
HA ha ha!! yeppers Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it [for] a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This [shall be] a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
wonder what this really means ?? :dontknow:
He's eating barley cakes cooked over dung--for 430 years.
QuoteHe's eating barley cakes cooked over dung.
why Molly ?
for the sins of Israel and Judah ? :mblush:
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:29:26 AM
QuoteHe's eating barley cakes cooked over dung.
why Molly ?
for the sins of Israel and Judah ? :mblush:
Yeah, I think. They've defiled their bread and he's taking their transgressions on himself.
There's some 400 years before Christ where there is not one word from God. That's a long silence.
But barley cakes speak of the first fruits.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 03:27:52 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:21:29 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 03:14:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:02:47 AM
Ezekiel had to lay on sides too , lol Kimmy you did say that sis ! OMG !! :laughing7:
Thats HIS name Rose! I forgot which one did that weird thing, I betcha it seemed pretty pointless to him too :grin:
Not that im complaining :msealed:
HA ha ha!! yeppers Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it [for] a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This [shall be] a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
wonder what this really means ?? :dontknow:
He's eating barley cakes cooked over dung--for 430 years.
Sin comes to mind..kinda like Twins, :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 03:31:52 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:29:26 AM
QuoteHe's eating barley cakes cooked over dung.
why Molly ?
for the sins of Israel and Judah ? :mblush:
Yeah, I think. They've defiled their bread and he's taking their transgressions on himself.
There's some 400 years before Christ where there is not one word from God. That's a long silence.
But barley cakes speak of the first fruits.
yes for the poor , barley is a poor mans pay/ food
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:02:47 AM
I learned it through YOU actually I was more quiet when we met recall? It was your influence you are like a girl, never met a guy like you, all day and night tea parties of revelatory things of God, they were the best werent they? :grin:
I like phone now, its harder for me to type, I said to Rose I feel like that dude in scripture which must lay on his side and type for so many days then flip over like a pancake and do it on the other side...Just as long as Im not cooking over dung its good to go :grin:
Com on! I have been short and sweet and not as longwinded as usual, praise God for that He is sparing ya :grin:
Ezekiel had to lay on sides too , lol Kimmy you did say that sis ! OMG !! :laughing7:
[/quote]
Yeah Yeah...Tis always My Fault..Tis True, Tracey tells me all the time..Im convinced ..Blame World recession on me..thats My Fault too
he he..Loved those tea Parties and Cookies... :icon_flower: great days sis.
Nah dont want Yesterdays Food sis.... :icon_flower:
Two sides...lol.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
Mat 24:48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (KJV)
Mat 24:48 "Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'" (Concordant Literal).
The story is not that the Lord has already come but that the Lord delayed His coming and so the evil slave thought he could get lazy. Then the Lord came when the slave didn't think He would.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 03:18:22 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 03:05:46 AM
i AM just so glad you are both here now , love you and all to pieces
:HeartThrob:
the suffering part is the part we would love to go without , but it is also part of the process , there is Light at the end of the tunnel
Thanking God for the mercy I know of Him today .. :thumbsup:
Thats cause Our God ROCKS! :thumbsup:
Glad to be with you guys too I had forgotten how great it was to get together...not really but sorta
yes Sis Our God rocks!! amazing ! :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :girlheart:
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 03:51:30 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on December 29, 2008, 09:23:55 PM
So let's just take this understanding to its logical conclusion: :wacko2:
"But the servant without understanding says in his heart; the Lord delays in his coming."
peacemaker
Mat 24:48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (KJV)
Mat 24:48 "Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'" (Concordant Literal).
The story is not that the Lord has already come but that the Lord delayed His coming and so the evil slave thought he could get lazy. Then the Lord came when the slave didn't think He would.
MAY BE MORE OF FOOD FIGHTING AT THE SUPPER TABLE ! while Jesus in in the Midst [ the food] His Body]
45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Crazy? :happy3: Not sure how to contrast that – but given the normality of the physical world these days, it must be spiritually true! :mblush:
Who is Jer? I was once a wounded traveler, but now, "what is mine, is yours; if you have need of it."
"A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho ...and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead."
"And by chance there came down a certain priest that way ...and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side."
"And likewise, a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him and passed by on the other side."
"But ...a certain Samaritan as he journeyed, came where he was ...and when he saw him, he had compassion on him."
Appears that Jesus was suggesting that the entire hierarchy, from the Levites to the self-exalted priests, were spiritually dead.
He also was indicating that charity (loving-kindness and mercy) is the mark of a true follower, as in:
"I desired mercy, not sacrifice."
The Samaritan not only went to him, bound up his wounds (with the pouring of oil and wine) and set him on his own beast, but also brought him to an inn, and took care of him. Now, that's going the extra mile...
"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee."
I see the good Samaritan, as taking some of his own garment to cover, dress and bind up the wounds of the person who was in need.
Whereas, the robbers encircled the traveler, taking that which was not rightfully theirs - a mentality of only the strongest survive. And, the priest and Levite could care-less, "What is mine, is mine." Thus, do not cast your burden on them – for they judge by the law, and care not!
The traveler merely received all that he was given by the spirit of the possessor; the Lord of the manor, and occupant of the house next door.
I find it more than interesting - that Rahab was an Inn keeper who lived within the city (not outside the gates), and was called a harlot by the sun dialed religion of the day, simply because – her covering (veil) had been removed in order to serve others. And, going against the grain of societal expectations always costs, especially, if you go against the natural disposition.
However, Love is one of the main characteristics of our Lord, and it ought to be manifested by all those who aspire to be the sons of God. Serving as a guide for travelers.
"Love covers a great number of people; a multitude."
Indeed :icon_flower: Tis a Matter of the HEART!
peacemaker
Quote from: PeacemakerI see the good Samaritan, as taking some of his own garment to cover, dress and bind up the wounds of the person who was in need.
When the samaritan covers the man with his own garment, he is acting as the agent of Christ--in the place of the kinsman redeemer. He is, in fact, the anointed one.
8And it came to pass at midnight, that the man was afraid, and turned himself: and, behold, a woman lay at his feet.
9And he said, Who art thou? And she answered, I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman.
14And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor.
15Also he said, Bring the vail that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and she went into the city. --Ruth 3
So--back to my original question--do we have a spirit or is it something extraneous which we acquire--
Jesus tells Nicodemus that the fact that he can see the kingdom of God is proof that he is born from above.
"Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.
--John 3
Then Jesus tells him that flesh can only give birth to flesh--it is Spirit which gives birth to spirit--
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
So wouldn't that imply that we are not automatically born with a spirit? (unless we are set apart in the womb).
But Jesus goes on to tell Nicodemus that seeing the kingdom is only the first step, additional things are needed to enter.
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
"water"
From the base of G5205
rain
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 06:55:46 AM
Your still here? How can you dissect these things like you do? :grin:
Well it says we have the spirit of a man (who is born of flesh) and the little girl that died it speaks of "her spirit" returning to her... I lost my bible page but doesnt it talk also about a man following his own spirit?
Born of God (or from above) is not by the will of man, or born of flesh and blood... the spirit of man seems more comparable with the spirit of the world not the Spirit of God. Christ said Ye are from beneath I am from above, ye of the world I am not of the world, seems to collaborate you think?
My computer is slow tonight. I think he wants me to sleep. :laughing7:
Yes, so born from above makes us citizens of another world, or another place. That's where our birth is recorded.
But, you know, when Jesus talks about sweeping clean the house and driving out the demon (spirit)--the house is then --empty. What about that? Why empty? The spirit of man, if there is one, must be tied to flesh.
It's interesting how so many eastern religions focus on breathing, and breathing exercises, as if God is somehow in the breath.
I need to sleep...
On the end of my right upper appendage I have 5 digits which are distinguished as 4 fingers and 1 thumb. If my motive thought was in my fingers it would seem the thumb is in opposition to them. Because command center is in my head I can pick up something that to the individuals on the end functions as relative adversity. Lo! I have another on my other side, mirror like, only weaker. They both have lower relatives of lesser articulation, 10 toes on 2 feet... 2 above and 2 below... or is it 10 celestial and 10 terrestial...
It's been mentioned there are spirits as angels, human spirits, (there are animal spirits too,) demonic spirits and there is the Spirit of God -- Who, when he filled the 120 on the day of Pentecost, brought out the fact through Peter that this indwelling Lord was, "...for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Ac 2:39) -- so, all these different spirits, yet God says there is, "...one body and one Spirit..." (Ep 4:4) Just as there are several fingers on each of two hands, there is one person united in pupose through its head, so the many are one Spirit. It depends on your perspective.
I had a friend that I argued with about this over and over until I was sick of it. For 9 months, anytime I came into the house he'd loudly say to me, "One Spirit!" What a trial! Until the day the revelation hit! I finally got it.
And there is, "One body." The entire physical universe, its outer manifestation is the realm of embodiment. The inner travail of all creation is for the glory to be revealed through us to cover the realm of nature with the weight of glory. We are to, "Not judge according to appearances, but to judge righteous judgement." It is the higher more enduring substance of Spirit that drives the purpose of it all. It is by Spirit that all things change or remain the same.
1 I THEREFORE, the prisoner for the Lord, appeal to and beg you to walk (lead a life) worthy of the [divine] calling to which you have been called [with behavior that is a credit to the summons to God's service,
2Living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.
3Be eager and strive earnestly to guard and keep the harmony and oneness of [and produced by] the Spirit in the binding power of peace.
4[There is] one body and one Spirit--just as there is also one hope [that belongs] to the calling you received--
5[There is] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all.
7Yet grace (God's unmerited favor) was given to each of us individually [not indiscriminately, but in different ways] in proportion to the measure of Christ's [rich and bounteous] gift.
8Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.
9[But He ascended?] Now what can this, He ascended, mean but that He had previously descended from [the heights of] heaven into [the depths], the lower parts of the earth?
10He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
--Eph 4
51When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child's father and mother. 52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But he took her by the hand and said, "My child, get up!" 55Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.
--Luke 8
Jesus says the same thing of the girl as he says of Lazarus--she's not dead but asleep.
Does this give us some clue to the spirit of man? When he calls out to her, her spirit returns and she stands up. She is alive again. Thus, if there is such a thing as a spirit of man, its basic function is to keep man alive and breathing--it is a function of vitality, of life, of breathing in and out.
When Adam receives the breath of God, he becomes a living soul. But are all souls 'living'? Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead. [Mat 8:22] So clearly someone can be a walking and talking soul and still be dead. Yet, someone can be literally dead and only be sleeping.
Although the first Adam is a quickened soul (living soul), there is nothing spoken about his spirit, except that he is not deceived by satan. This is a function of his quickening. He is not the living dead, so he has the faculties to see through satan's lies. We see the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. This is the spirit of Christ which can bring life (quickening) to others, even those that are literally dead. But is he quickening their spirits or their souls? God himself, breathing into Adam, produces not a quickened spirit but a quickened (living) soul. Adam stands mute before satan, having not the spiritual tools (the Word of God) to resist him.
Are we able to worship God in spirit and truth without being quickened first? Does the quickened soul produce a quickened spirit? I could only find one scripture that implies this:
"There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration [breath] of the Almighty giveth them understanding" (Job 32:8).
But Paul says,
The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
So again, it looks like the natural man [Eve] without the breath of God [Adam] has no understanding or ability to understand the things of the Spirit, --basically no spirit function beyond the vitality of breathing in and out. And, Adam is not a quickened spirit but a quickened soul.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6).
This seems harsh, but he is talking here about the soulish man with no spiritual capacity. They will turn and rend you like an angry pack of dogs if you confront them with spiritual things of God. This is the basest element of soul without Spirit, without God. Having been rent by such people who are educated, intelligent , and otherwise successful, I could bear witness to this.
We also see that when Jesus drives an evil spirit out of a man, the house is swept clean and it is now empty. The demon spirit returns to an attractive situation--
Matthew 12:44
Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.
Unoccupied. Where is the spirit of man if there is such a thing? The house is empty and so inviting that the demon brings seven more evil spirits to occupy the man.
Paul, in speaking to the ecclesia in Eph 4, tells them there is one Spirit...above all...pervading all...and living in us all. This is the Spirit that man was created to carry, the Spirit of God. This is the quickening Spirit that brings the soul to life and other souls to life. This is the Spirit that is meant to fill the empty house. And, this is the only Spirit which will grow our souls into
the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him. [Eph 4]
Quote
Yesterdays food? huh? Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before?
Oops, disregard my latest one then
No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,
Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Hi James; glad you got in the thread........I got a question for you. If all these spirits, including the evil are of that One Spirit, how does that work? I'm not being argumentative here, I can see it possibly being both ways. Are you saying that God created these spirits to provide the contrast for the good, and in that way, they are one spirit? Blessings....
Quote from: peacemaker on December 30, 2008, 04:59:43 AM
Crazy? :happy3: Not sure how to contrast that – but given the normality of the physical world these days, it must be spiritually true! :mblush:
Who is Jer? I was once a wounded traveler, but now, "what is mine, is yours; if you have need of it."
"A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho ...and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead."
"And by chance there came down a certain priest that way ...and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side."
"And likewise, a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him and passed by on the other side."
"But ...a certain Samaritan as he journeyed, came where he was ...and when he saw him, he had compassion on him."
Appears that Jesus was suggesting that the entire hierarchy, from the Levites to the self-exalted priests, were spiritually dead.
He also was indicating that charity (loving-kindness and mercy) is the mark of a true follower, as in:
"I desired mercy, not sacrifice."
The Samaritan not only went to him, bound up his wounds (with the pouring of oil and wine) and set him on his own beast, but also brought him to an inn, and took care of him. Now, that's going the extra mile...
"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee."
I see the good Samaritan, as taking some of his own garment to cover, dress and bind up the wounds of the person who was in need.
Whereas, the robbers encircled the traveler, taking that which was not rightfully theirs - a mentality of only the strongest survive. And, the priest and Levite could care-less, "What is mine, is mine." Thus, do not cast your burden on them – for they judge by the law, and care not!
The traveler merely received all that he was given by the spirit of the possessor; the Lord of the manor, and occupant of the house next door.
I find it more than interesting - that Rahab was an Inn keeper who lived within the city (not outside the gates), and was called a harlot by the sun dialed religion of the day, simply because – her covering (veil) had been removed in order to serve others. And, going against the grain of societal expectations always costs, especially, if you go against the natural disposition.
However, Love is one of the main characteristics of our Lord, and it ought to be manifested by all those who aspire to be the sons of God. Serving as a guide for travelers.
"Love covers a great number of people; a multitude."
Indeed :icon_flower: Tis a Matter of the HEART!
peacemaker
Hi Jer aka Peacemaker ,
old friend
your post most inspiring ! :HeartThrob: Thanks for sharing whats in your heart .
you are right without Love being the motive and intent of any good thing ever done , for any other reason it would be pointless
Honest sincerity is one of the most striking characteristics of a beautiful heart that God has formed /filled
it is a rare beauty inDEED :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be
saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Something brief on 1Timothy 2:15. It's in the context of 1Timothy 2:11 about learning in all quiet submissiveness. So, there are transformational lessons to be learned in motherhood. Secondly, I take 1Timothy 2:15 as a promise of protection when you consider that the very high mortality rate for childbaring mothers has only been declining for about a hundred years or so. Thirdly, there's something deeply suggestive in the context, with verses 13-14, about what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might have been if God intended for their procreation to take place in the way that He'd just procreated with them by simply saying it rather than....Ahem! Paul throughout his writings seems to be sanctifying sexuality in the context of marriage which was a very radical thought for the ascetics both then and now.
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
:sigh: :sigh:
:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :doh:
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
Hi Tony ..Head still hurting :icon_flower:
..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a
Child under law to A rebirthing of a
SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law... theres More than one way the scriptures show this.
For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN
Jhn 16:21
A woman when
she is in travail hath sorrow, because
her hour is come: but as soon as she is
delivered of the child, she remembereth
no more the anguish, for
joy that a man is born into the world. Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a
woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
seemed Paul also Understood THE figurative Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My
little children, of whom
I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.
Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ..., which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?
Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.
If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?: They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings. :-?
So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS. :o
Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]
Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....
1Co 14:37 If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]
It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:
So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )
Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)
Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?
[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too. :?: ]
Gal 3:24 Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]
So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST? :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:
The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST.
So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH? :?:
In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.
Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL?? :-?
There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)?? :?:
Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female.... :-?
But what do the scriptures say about that?
Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".
So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 06:55:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
Hi Tony ..Head still hurting :icon_flower:
..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a Child under law to A rebirthing of a SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law... theres More than one way the scriptures show this.
For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
seemed Paul also Understood THE spiritual Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.
Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ...speaks very MUCH again after a spiritual Reality, which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?
Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.
If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?: They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings. :-?
So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS. :o
Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]
Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....
1Co 14:37 If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]
It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:
So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )
Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)
Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?
[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too. :?: ]
Gal 3:24 Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]
So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST? :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:
The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST.
So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH? :?:
In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.
Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL?? :-?
There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)?? :?:
Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female.... :-?
But what do the scriptures say about that?
Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".
So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?
For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of
joy comes in the morning.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:43:25 PM
Quote
Yesterdays food? huh? Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before?
Oops, disregard my latest one then
No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:
Sorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way :grin:
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 06:55:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
Hi Tony ..Head still hurting :icon_flower:
..the Travail of Childbirth Tony , tis Moving from a Child under law to A rebirthing of a SON of Faith,For me Much Confusion was going on with Women who were yet to be TRULY converted , who were married to Husbands WHICH WERE, therefore still Under law... theres More than one way the scriptures show this.
For Unto Us a Child IS given and a SON IS BORN
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
seemed Paul also Understood THE figurative Truth of this...
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
These were early TIMES Tony, many as such still Babes Struggling with the Tradition of their Fathers.
Im going to Borrow this post,from a dear Sister......it will save me an hour or so digging it out, speaks of Such women Folk and why then they were not PERMITTED to Teach ..., which for mine explains SAVED through Child Birth.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
What does it mean that women are to remain silent in the churches and that Paul did not allow woman to "usurp the authority over a man", or to "teach" etc?
Let's start with the verses in 1 Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians, it seems to me that Paul is addressing the chaos and confusion going on in the Corinthian churches. In the midst of addressing what seems to me to be the ENTIRE congregation he tells the woman to remain SILENT and to ask their questions at home to their husbands IF THEY ARE TO LEARN anything.
If the Corinthians were "yet carnal" then they had not passed from "death" unto "life", right? They were still under the law and not under faith and grace? :?: They were still learning and it appears that there was chaos and confusion going on in the meetings. :-?
So, in the context of the verses :wink: , I don't see that Paul was saying that woman are not EVER under ANY circumstances allowed to speak... but that they can't DISRUPT the meetings by asking all kinds of QUESTIONS. :o
Paul starts out by addressing the entire congregation and he mentions those things that are causing the CONFUSION and then he goes on to mention that the women are asking questions and disrupting the meetings, instead of waiting until they get home to ask their husbands??
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of
confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/list]
Then he goes back to speaking to the entire congregation again....
1Co 14:37 If any man (if
ANY) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man (if ANY) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.[/list]
It seems to me that what is being addressed in the chaos and confusion. :?:
So now let's look at 1 Timothy where it specifically mentions "teaching"?
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, IF THEY CONTINUE in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/list]( SOUNDNESS OF MIND :icon_flower: )
Don't you think there is a deeper message here than what is just on the surface? Who is he referring to? Are these CONVERTED women, born again of incorruptible seed? Or are these those still "under the law", who still "travail in pain", waiting to GIVE BIRTH, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God? (Who will be "saved in childbearing"?)
Once we pass from "death" unto "life", from being in bondage under the law into the glorious liberty of the children of God, is there still male and female?
[I know there has to be more to the "first" Adam and "then" Eve, too. :?: ]
Gal 3:24 Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children (uihos = son) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/list]
So does what Paul said apply to those who have been baptized into Christ and who have PUT ON CHRIST? :?: Or does it apply to those who are still under the schoolmaster? :?:
The head of the woman is MAN and the head of man is CHRIST and the head of Christ is GOD.... But the head of the BODY (where there is no male or female) IS CHRIST.
So how are these verses to be applied? To those who have put on Christ or to those who are still under the law? Or DO they apply to BOTH? :?:
In the BEGINNING God made them male and female and FOR THIS CAUSE the man is to LEAVE his FATHER and mother and CLEAVE unto his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH.
Why do we look at the NATURAL, and MISS the SPIRITUAL?? :-?
There must be a point at which we become ONE FLESH (in which there is neither male nor female, etc)?? :?:
Some want to say that as long as we are "in the flesh" we are male and female.... :-?
But what do the scriptures say about that?
Rom 8 tells us that we walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the spirit. For "they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD". It says "ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit IF SO BE that the spirit of God dwell in you".
So then, if we are no longer "in the flesh" but in the spirit (where there is neither male nor female) then how are these verses to be applied?
Taffy, do you REALLY believe that Paul meant all the above which you wrote and copy and pasted concerning this?:
1Ti 2:14-15 and Adam was not seduced, yet the woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression)." (15) Yet she shall be saved through the child bearing, if ever they should be remaining in faith and love and holiness with sanity."
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 02:43:25 PM
Quote
Yesterdays food? huh? Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before?
Oops, disregard my latest one then
No ya NUT :laughing7: ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins :icon_flower:
Sorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way :grin:
I suppose you don't take this LITERALLY either:
"Christ died for our sins" cause if you did, you might be misunderstood?
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
This is a TEST. This is only a TEST.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
This is a TEST. This is only a TEST.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
:happy3:
but, but ,but Molly, it's not what you think. We have to allegorize that verse until it doesn't mean what it originally meant. That way we don't have to believe it.
Quote
Taffy, do you REALLY believe that Paul meant all the above which you wrote and copy and pasted concerning this?:
1Ti 2:14-15 and Adam was not seduced, yet the woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression)." (15) Yet she shall be saved through the child bearing, if ever they should be remaining in faith and love and holiness with sanity."
No Tony..thats WHY I posted it....... :happygrin:
Well Actualy Tony , Not all was Copied and Pasted , Cand P saves time.. :icon_flower: ...Ca
Bro If I was to explain more..youd go back to the Beginning and start again.like you have done several Times before.
Im calling It quits..But there are More than several Witnessess to what Ive posted who also believe this to be true, and Theres MANY MORE SCRIPS which could be added , a plenty, ...But for now maybe theres No point..each to their own bro..Just watch ya dont do some permanent damage on that wall :laughing7:
Peace to you :icon_flower:
Been nice talking
Taffy
Peace to you Bro....
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 08:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
This is a TEST. This is only a TEST.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
:happy3:
but, but ,but Molly, it's not what you think. We have to allegorize that verse until it doesn't mean what it originally meant. That way we don't have to believe it.
I do tend to take things more literally than not. So I'm with you on that point. But, sometimes the literal pries open the spiritual world and you just can't help but fall in. So Jesus saves us, yes, that's a literal fact, but the spiritual implications of it are enormous, and can change the whole world by causing people to think differently.
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 09:41:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 09:33:08 PM
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
I thought food shopping was the womans job? :grin: Great I hate doing it so I'll tell my husband I just learned it was HIS today :grin: Afterall her job was the kids and his was to sweat for bread, so you might be right, had he taken his position as the head she would have never gotten humanity into this mess :grin:
Its just weird that in one place Adam sinned and in another place its her who did and you'd think it would read" As in Eve death passed upon all men" or something like that :grin:
Yeah, well they are really blaming her, it's just that most don't know that she changed the fine print so that her name was Adam, too, thereby fooling the whole world.
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. --Gen 5
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 09:33:08 PM
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
:cloud9: Molly, I had my LOL for the day on that one.......hilarious! :thumbsup:
And it does say He called THEIR name Adam.......
:cloud9: LOL, posted without reading, we were thinking alike on that one.....
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 09:33:08 PM
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
Molly A WARNING :icon_flower: check that Blue Badge..
All this laughing your causing Is hurtin Me wound Girl....will quit Please :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 09:41:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 09:33:08 PM
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
I thought food shopping was the womans job? :grin: Great I hate doing it so I'll tell my husband I just learned it was HIS today :grin:
Yeah, tell your husband you are happy to shop but -it-could-be-.....dangerous. :laughing7:
It's like that poor Bernie Madoff. His wife was spending 50,000 a month. What's a guy to do?
That's a lot of apples.
:cloud9: I have long believed if we could completely and fully understand Gen. chapters 1-3, it would unlock the whole thing.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 10:10:31 PM
:cloud9: I have long believed if we could completely and fully understand Gen. chapters 1-3, it would unlock the whole thing.
Absolutely. The whole Bible is in the first three chapters.
And, it gives Eve something to nag Adam about for the next 6000 years---Remember when we were in the garden, and everything was PERFECT? That was before-you- messed-it-up!
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 08:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Getting back to the original thrust which started this new thread . . .
If it is O.K. to take something Jesus said was the literal meaning of the figurative use of words, is it O.K. for me to take what God has said as to Him being the Saviour of all mankind and that He will save all mankind and make of it whatever I want to? Can I not also "spiritualize" 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10?
It is a fair question. :icon_flower:
Hey T....Nobodys Saying throw out the literal..but Heck Bud, the majority would THINK you somewhat Spirtualise this Because THE MANY dont BELIEVE THE WORD """""""""""""""" ALL"""""""""""" :laughing7:
Just browse a little further down the page and we Find this....
.where do we go to find what this means bro
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The context of her being saved is that she will be saved from the shame that she is part of the female species of which Eve is a member of, which got it into a lot of the mess we have today.
We know that absolutely she will be saved due to what Christ accomplished. So "saved" in 1 Tim.2:15 is used in a secondary sense. It is not a "spiritual" sense that "saved" is used.
This is a TEST. This is only a TEST.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
:happy3:
but, but ,but Molly, it's not what you think. We have to allegorize that verse until it doesn't mean what it originally meant. That way we don't have to believe it.
Allegories, Figures, similitudes, parables, spiritual understanding etc are so evil Tony :grin:
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Is this all you do is lie in wait to jump on folks? :grin:
No, not really. I don't lie in wait to jump on folks. But I started this thread and if I remember it was you who started with the attack on me with a tongue-in-cheek statement which I bolded below:
QuoteQuote from: Taffy on Today at 07:43:25 AM
Quote
Yesterdays food? huh? Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before?
Oops, disregard my latest one then
No ya NUT ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins
Sorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way
So, do you really like to lie in wait to jump on folks like me who like to take what Jesus said at face value?
When Jesus and Paul explain what their allegory was, it is not up to us to change their explanation into a different explanation which I see going on here.
I just noticed this ? I have always wondered why Job spoke of Adams trangression like this ? hiden in his bosom? , is that not where Eve come out of his rib , side , is the bosom the heart?
not saying anything against eve here , but wondering the way it is worded like job saying that he kept silence and come not out the door?
that Adam did not confess his sin before God but tried to justify his self and put the blame on Eve? the woman that GOD GAVE HIM!
indirectly blaming God for the whole problem?
Golly I wonder about this one now !!! :mblush:
HI JACKED thread alert!! :hijacked:
And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
Job 31:28 This also [were] an iniquity [to be punished by] the judge: for I should have denied the God [that is] above.
Job 31:29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Job 31:30 Neither have I suffered my mouth to sin by wishing a curse to his soul.
Job 31:31 If the men of my tabernacle said not, Oh that we had of his flesh! we cannot be satisfied.
catch that verse ? hummmm...
Job 31:32 The stranger did not lodge in the street: [but] I opened my doors to the traveller.
Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Job 31:34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, [and] went not out of the door?
these things keep me searching into them
QuoteSorry I was taking you LITERALLY misunderstanding always happen that way
Sorry Tony , This is a Statement of Fact,....Fire Misunderstood my figure of Speech By taking My comment Literally In the sense of Me Not wishing to discuss what we Once Shared Yesterday.
And another fact is,,This commonly Happens....
So friend If this Hat also Fits your hEad then Wear It....If Not disregard it. as you do with The Multitudes of Scriptures and explainations shown your way.....
Be blessed Bro...
Tony This is a Copy I sent MY TIME, which is at LEAST 5 hrs ahead your time to Kim this Morning.
Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: Fireinfolding on: Today at 11:46:31 AM » Quote Reply Remove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aye ya Nutter
Ive posted this on the thread but if it goes like yesterdar ya may miss it
so
Quote
Yesterdays food? huh? Then I should promise not to touch upon anything we ate together before?
Oops, disregard my latest one then
No ya NUT ......,Yesterdays Food v TO DAYS FOOD ,....OLD Wine in NEW wine Skins
xoxoxoxoxoxoxooxoxooxoxoox
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Rosered said, "I just noticed this ? I have always wondered why Job spoke of Adams trangression like this ? hiden in his bosom? , is that not where Eve come out of his rib , side, is the bosom the heart?
Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom: "
This might help.....He tied in taking Eve, the stony heart of Adam, out, with Deut. 7 where He tells the Israelites that He took them OUT into the wilderness so they could see what was in their hearts. He took her out so he could see (face to face) what was in his heart = iniquity that was hid in his bosom = Eve, the stony heart.
I can't "prove" it yet, but I think as a creative being made in the image of the Creator, Adam produced a thought of iniquity in his heart, and God brought it out and gave it form for him to see what was in his heart. It is the same principle as faith being the evidence of things not seen, or put another way, what we have believed for, is what is manifested into what we can touch and see. Blessings....
:cloud9: I have no idea how that last post of mine came out red, but I can't un-red it, so sorry about the eye strain, LOL....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 10:46:41 PM
:cloud9: I have no idea how that last post of mine came out red, but I can't un-red it, so sorry about the eye strain, LOL....
ya Color Blind Girl..Tis Bolded Black :laughing7:
:cloud9: ???!!! I swear to you, it was red when it went up! :mshock:
Hi Cardinal , that is a good point sis to think about , if I am reading this right ?, thanks for sharing it , its always makes me think when I get into Job ! Eve is where conception begins , I can see how a stony heart would not bear fruit to God , but Abel and Seth seem to be from the seeds that God did bless ?
God even showed mercy to Cain in my opinion lol :thumbsup:
QuoteThis might help.....He tied in taking Eve, the stony heart of Adam, out, with Deut. 7 where He tells the Israelites that He took them OUT into the wilderness so they could see what was in their hearts. He took her out so he could see (face to face) what was in his heart = iniquity that was hid in his bosom = Eve, the stony heart.
I can't "prove" it yet, but I think as a creative being made in the image of the Creator, Adam produced a thought of iniquity in his heart, and God brought it out and gave it form for him to see what was in his heart. It is the same principle as faith being the evidence of things not seen, or put another way, what we have believed for, is what is manifested into what we can touch and see. Blessings....
Thanks I will re read this ! ps I SAW
RED at first as well LOL you are not going crazy sister Cardinal hee hee .....
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 10:48:40 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actuall and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , it not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
Sorry you came in on this because I hadnt yet said I loved your previous post Rose, that was a good one!
Great point thats why we need the SPIRIT to teach us and to be a workman in the word, I dont rightly divide a letter from my mother or a book of any human origin but we are to *rightly divide* HIS and it is the Spirit that helps us learn how . Not only so Paul even says there are those who hear only what the law saith and to them it speaks and theres hearing what the Spirit says and how it reads to us is how it reads to us. He even speaks of seeking out his words and I will pour out my Spirit upon you and make my words known to you. So hearing is not always understanding and the gosepl (Paul said can be hid) and speaks also of spritual things being as foolishness to the natural man, and I can honestly say they were foolishness to me at one time too, I wasnt born spiritually minded :grin: I never had a corner on Gods words :grin: I wait upon Him for understanding, Im as one being taught of Him yanno?
Hugs, I agree :HeartThrob:
you are right Kimmy , it is something God gives us and how we use it to SEE more of Him , the Lord does Hide Himself , that is when i fret! to be honest here and now
love to all .. rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
When Jesus spoke of the tares and wheat He had to explain it to His disciples.
When Jesus spoke of the cup and the bread He explained it to His disciples. I'm sure you'd agree that we should not explain away the explanation.
Your post was very good and wish more would post like it.
:cloud9: You wouldn't be a nut case, Rosie, you'd just be Arther Blessit.......sorry couldn't resist injecting a little true humor in....... :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 11:06:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 10:56:50 PM
:cloud9: ???!!! I swear to you, it was red when it went up! :mshock:
HE changed it :grin: It was red I saw it too :grin:
:cloud9: Gramster the hamster, you bad :laughing7: :talkangry:
"The Spirit cannot be deceived, but the natural inclinations of the flesh can; but she, will be restored through the childbearing."
Not everything can be truly understood, until you receive the spiritual revelation from God, Himself. Otherwise, you will see it only in the natural sense of the word. Of course, if you see it that way, which many do, then so be it. Not to mention that those who do, certainly are not going to receive anything that anyone says - contrary to what they [themselves] believe.
I suppose you don't take this LITERALLY either: "Christ died for our sins" cause if you did, you might be misunderstood?
To bare one's sin, is to expose it!
Tony, you will literally die, now that's the truth. But tell me, what is it to be born again? For surely, you cannot again, enter the womb?
Have you heard the joke about the guy who wants to hear from God, and decides to flip through the Scriptures?
If not, please make every effort, not to answer this way:
He closes his eyes, and while fanning his Bible he sticks his finger in, and it lands right on the verse: "Judas hung himself."
Thinking this must be a mistake, he tries it again, and finds the words: "Go, and do likewise."
Alarmed at this, he tries one last time, and lands on the text: "What you must do, do quickly."
And, by all means take your time ...this is not to say you won't, it's because I've never agreed with orthodox views, or their way of teaching.
Peacemaker
Adam wasn't deceived but if he were a good provider, Eve wouldn't have had to be out on the marketplace negotiating for apples with shady characters.
Now, that was hilarious! Got me laughing so hard that "I almost fell from the tree!"
Not a lie, the chair is made of wood... :laughhand:
Thanks Molly!
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
Just where would I find that in the scrips Tony.
They didnt Understand a Thing about Dying to Self , they Thought what they were doing was EARNING salvation ?.... OR Lest why did Peter Cut off the ear of the Centurian, to Protect Him who would be KING
or maybe after talking to this Rich man, which No Doubt was another Pharisee , or then come to Understand it ..EVEN THINKING THEY GAVE UP ALL THEY HAD....AND ALL Tony is all ,and if all, Then That to would conclude dying to themseves..They hadnt a CLUE
at this stage They were Babes....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 11:09:19 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 11:06:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 10:56:50 PM
:cloud9: ???!!! I swear to you, it was red when it went up! :mshock:
HE changed it :grin: It was red I saw it too :grin:
:cloud9: Gramster the hamster, you bad :laughing7: :talkangry:
Guilty as Charged :mblush:
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for real so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
When Jesus spoke of the tares and wheat He had to explain it to His disciples.
When Jesus spoke of the cup and the bread He explained it to His disciples. I'm sure you'd agree that we should not explain away the explanation.
Your post was very good and wish more would post like it.
Yes Jesus did go into detail many things to his students :thumbsup:
As does Paul and I hang on to every word :thumbsup:
and yes , In some cases i do see many trying to explain away the simple explanation , I may be guilty of that myself at times :mblush:, I dont say that is the only thing thats truth , but I try and consider many spiritual concepts
when searching for Truth
when Pilate asked Jesus Christ ''what is Truth''?
Pilate went out and found no fault in him/ Jesus at all!
the thing is ,
Jesus told Him right before Pilate asked what is truth ?
that Jesus come to make the Truth known ,
that Every one that is of the truth hears his voice.
I think even Pilate realized some what whom Jesus was
peace bro
QuoteAmen sis, I have to sit with things sometimes and theres a few I really sit with and wont comment on because I just dont know yet, If He cannot convince me to see it aright and I dont get that AH HA thingy He can do as He quickens something I wont budge but we are no different from the disciples who would ask, "What MEANETH He when He said, in a little while you will see me no more and in a little while you will see me again"? I mean honestly we all do that, and ofcourse we let two or three speak and we might always get how another person sees a thing but never does it seem do their witnesses agree and most often even we dont agree" because we all know when He makes it clear to us and even Paul speaks of God's ability to do that for us. Whats given to one might not be given to another, sometimes I think we need to be first filled with the water of the word before He can change it to wine, He changes the flavor somehow, but it was His first miracle in 6 stone vessels and that change comes by Him in His time and to me it speaks of His words becoming life and Spirit and the intimate experiencing of this and even the drawing of it out and sharing it with others too in some way.
Hugs
Kim you are right !
I often think of what Jesus said about his servants fighting for Him , not so much Him , but for His cause the Cross , it would be of no effect
if they were not standing in faith , this is whay defend what we KNOW AS TRUTH and what we dont know , we are willing to listen and consider it at least
Jesus went on to say
IF that His kingdom/realm would not be of this world and really never was , when satan tempted him with all the kingdoms He resisted the devil , and that Is why we may see so much chaos in the natural realm / kingdom
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Seem the Spiritual realm is the unseen with natural eyes we Know Jesus was born of Holy Ghost but come into the Flesh realm / kingdom
QuoteJhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Seem the Spiritual realm is the unseen with natural eyes we Know Jesus was born of Holy Ghost but come into the Flesh realm / kingdom
Kinda getting weary sis..and close to beddies me thinks..
Yes Rosey,..For me The disciples, which Christ Used Peter more than Most to SHOW the Flesh indeed Profits Nothing , His worldly\Law Knowledge was purposeless.
They were very much Carnal in their thinking,Of course this changed as They grew Come the The Spirit..But early doors they were Indeed very Much apart of the WORLD of its time
nighty nite bro G , rest well brother ...... :HeartThrob:
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
this may belong in the Rudder thread , but seems appropriate after Fires post :thumbsup:
showing weakness in the flesh big time , but that is when the Lord is our strength :thumbsup:
seesm like old times as of late
sure enjoy the fellowship with everyone once again
God love ya all .. rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 11:56:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
Just where would I find that in the scrips then Tony.
They didnt Understand a Thing about Dying to Self , they Thought what they were doing was EARNING IT, ?.... OR Lest why did Peter Cut off the ear of the Centurian, to Protect Him who would be KING
or maybe after talking to this Rich man which No Doubt was another Pharisee , come to Understand it either..EVEN THINKING THEY GAVE UP ALL THEY HAD....AND ALL Tony is all and if all, Then That to would conclude dying to themseves..They hadnt a CLUE
at this stage They were Babes....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Yeah, hey G I know you recall Peters rebuke from Christ concerning His own death right? Jesus turns and looks upon the disciples and says to Peter, get thee behind me SATAN and RIGHT THERE is the mention of being mindful of the things of MEN not God. This is shown as a stumbling block and an OFFENSE to Christ.
This is shown a couple times in Peter. His fear of the circumcision was what cause him not to walk uprightly in accordance with the truth (even as it pertains to the cross) of the which Paul speaks of...
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
So true ...
Prov 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.
Not walking "uprightly" as shown in Gal 2:14 (as they were actaully found *not* walking) which is after the truth of the gospel pertains to the cross of Christ. This is the same spiritual truth Peter got rebuked of the Lord. This (Mat 16:22) would be contrasted against those who would ~bow down~ their back always verses walking uprightly Rom 11:10 This, appears to parallel the cross/ upright stake (walking uprightly in accordance to the gospel). Rose showed me the upright stake = the cross and you can see the principle of it in Jesus's confrontation of Peter and Paul's as well.
So thats where I'm seeing "the snare" (fear of men) and "stumbling block" is shown concerning their table (using the words..."backs bowed down") verses ~walking uprightly~ Rom 11:9
This is the same table that is set in the presence of ~his enemies~ Romans 11:28 and its in this regard ~the many~ who live (specifically) as enemies of the Cross of Christ Phil 3:18 Its just as Paul says as it pertains to being persecuted (for the cross of Christ) . Jesus speaks of persecution coming because of the word they become ~offended~ and fall away. This also speaking to their "falling away" and many being ~offended~ in accordance to the same truths.
So if Peter "got it" he fell into the same snare (even stumbling block) in his "fear of man" (the circumcision especially) and being "mindful of the things of men" are shown there once again :grin:
Hugs :HeartThrob:
Great adage Fire :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
I seem to recall Galatians 2 in particular used some yrs back when I wasnt to popular on some ones Board,, :thumbsup: mentioning similar issues
Yeah Tis Close to Beddies..Its Not real late ,may get a Second wind..Just getting a Little brain shot....as ya do
so Ill hang about and read some here for a Bit :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
so ill hang around a while
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 12:12:35 AM
nighty nite bro G , rest well brother ...... :HeartThrob:
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
this may belong in the Rudder thread , but seems appropriate after Fires post :thumbsup:
showing weakness in the flesh big time , but that is when the Lord is our strength :thumbsup:
seesm like old times as of late
sure enjoy the fellowship with everyone once again
God love ya all .. rose :HeartThrob:
Thanks sis.. :HeartThrob:
Very appropriate :thumbsup:
aint they really ALL :icon_flower: one thread
xoxoxoxoxoxox
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 12:16:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 12:12:35 AM
nighty nite bro G , rest well brother ...... :HeartThrob:
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
this may belong in the Rudder thread , but seems appropriate after Fires post :thumbsup:
showing weakness in the flesh big time , but that is when the Lord is our strength :thumbsup:
seesm like old times as of late
sure enjoy the fellowship with everyone once again
God love ya all .. rose :HeartThrob:
Thanks sis.. :HeartThrob:
Very appropriate :thumbsup:
aint they really ALL :icon_flower: one thread
xoxoxoxoxoxox
LOL ,, Ha ha , i got a good chuckle out of that
yes bro one continuous TRAIN of Thoughts .. :laughing7:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 12:23:25 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 12:12:35 AM
nighty nite bro G , rest well brother ...... :HeartThrob:
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
this may belong in the Rudder thread , but seems appropriate after Fires post :thumbsup:
showing weakness in the flesh big time , but that is when the Lord is our strength :thumbsup:
seesm like old times as of late
sure enjoy the fellowship with everyone once again
God love ya all .. rose :HeartThrob:
I MISSED YOU TOO!! :girlheart: ((HUGE HUGS)) It does dont it? Its awesome how God can bring us together again and we can continue where we left off isnt it?
I'm not a perfect man yet cause I wrestle my tongue down too much and sometimes I lose my grip and it slips away from me :grin:
I must ask forgiveness for the sin of my lips more often then I'd really like to have to :msealed:
:HeartThrob:
Huge hugs back at cha sis . :girlheart:
Me too sis , me too ask also for Gods mercy and forgiveness , knowing that in my flesh is no good thing , except the Lords Spirit and that is what keeps my
''hope '' alive
or I would not even try or care at all some days :sigh:
:cloud9: Pleasant dreams, Gramster...... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
Just where would I find that in the scrips Tony.
They didnt Understand a Thing about Dying to Self , they Thought what they were doing was EARNING salvation ?.... OR Lest why did Peter Cut off the ear of the Centurian, to Protect Him who would be KING
or maybe after talking to this Rich man, which No Doubt was another Pharisee , or then come to Understand it ..EVEN THINKING THEY GAVE UP ALL THEY HAD....AND ALL Tony is all ,and if all, Then That to would conclude dying to themseves..They hadnt a CLUE
at this stage They were Babes....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Taffy, obviously you are too sleepy to think clearly for your post actually proves my point.
The man who was not a disciple was clueless. The disciples were bearing their crosses and so were rightly called His disciples. They were dying to their wants to fulfill Christ's needs. They left all, gave up all. They said so themselves. The young man that came to Christ was not a disciple.
Again, Jesus did not have to explain the "take up your cross" to the disciples. They knew what it meant. The outsiders were obviously clueless and were not His disciples.
Jesus explained the wheat and the tares to His disciples but not to the outsiders because He said "Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."
Jesus explained what the cup and the bread were at the last supper. The figure and the actuality. But I'm sure you want to turn the actuality back into another figure just like you did with the wheat and tares.
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 04:12:39 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
Just where would I find that in the scrips Tony.
They didnt Understand a Thing about Dying to Self , they Thought what they were doing was EARNING salvation ?.... OR Lest why did Peter Cut off the ear of the Centurian, to Protect Him who would be KING
or maybe after talking to this Rich man, which No Doubt was another Pharisee , or then come to Understand it ..EVEN THINKING THEY GAVE UP ALL THEY HAD....AND ALL Tony is all ,and if all, Then That to would conclude dying to themseves..They hadnt a CLUE
at this stage They were Babes....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Taffy, obviously you are too sleepy to think clearly for your post actually proves my point.
The man who was not a disciple was clueless. The disciples were bearing their crosses and so were His disciples. They were dying to their wants to fulfill Christ's needs. They left all, gave up all. They said so themselves. The young man that came to Christ was not a disciple.
Again, Jesus did not have to explain the "take up your cross" to the disciples. They knew what it meant. The outsiders were obviously clueless and were not His disciples.
Jesus explained the wheat and the tares to His disciples but not to the outsiders because He said "Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."
Jesus explained what the cup and the bread were at the last supper. The figure and the actuality. But I'm sure you want to turn the actuality back into another figure just like you did with the wheat and tares.
MM...so They Gave all they HAD but still didnt UNDERSTAND....They understood that Much Peter Cuts the Centurians ear OFF...and thats Dying to self Is it.
Dying to self is the OLD MAN, which is SLAIN at the Cross , we THEN become a NEW MAN, BORN ANEW.
He Told them MANY THINGS THEY didnt UNDERSTAND....That Understanding was to Come later, then such Things would become Clear...
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he
shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. you did say Dying to self or doesnt one have to lose Life to Gain it
there were a couple OF other veiws given Tony or didnt ya read them?
As for the Richman,. you may just see he HAD MANY RICHES, and conclude from whats written HE had too much PRIDE in the LAW He kept..For its Immpossible to Please God with Out Faith, these were Jews Tony....Lazurus and The RICHMAN
Rev 3:17 Because thou
sayest, I am rich, and
increased with goods, and have
need of nothing; and
knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: he walks away SORROWFUL
Psa 69:29 But I [am] poor and
sorrowful: let
thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
THe disciples are astounded that This MAN who kept the Law SO well, would gain Nothing.....and your saying they KNEW, to KNOW is to Understand,.....Im afraid much of these lessons were Understood someway down the Line Bud.
"charity"
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
G5368
φιλέω
phileō
fil-eh'-o
From G5384; to be a friend to (fond of [an individual or an object]), that is, have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563 respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specifically to kiss (as a mark of tenderness): - kiss, love.
This one is agapaō:
John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
wow! thanks Kimmy and Molly thanks as well !
its good to see it ! I thought of this verse.... 12 seesm that I have read this in Revelation about the rod of Iron .. :thumbsup:
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 30, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
Ok, we have the Spirit of truth, we are baptized into ONE Spirit Since it is the Spirit of truth (and is no lie nor does any lie come from the truth) because God is not a man that He should lie, He cant be of a "lying spirit" because He is True and is Truth.
So if we are not to believe every spirit (given theres lying spirits) and we are told they are not of God then there is more then the ONE Spirit of Truth. Otherwise it wold say "Believe every spirit, test nothing, hearken to all things" and rip out that portion of scripture that says so :grin:
Very good. I agree. I'm not suggesting any change to the realities in the outer appendages, the members in particular which we are. My fingers are opposed to my thumb and vice versa. They're supposed to be. That's the experience they ought to undergo. We must oppose evil spirits and keep ourselves pure with no strange elohim in us.
God could eliminate any wicked spirit whenever He wants. I assume that He doesn't because He can better realize His purposes with a devil and such like.
Don't rip out any Scripture. Too many claiming to believe the Bible don't know what it says or what it does not say. Too much is made up and not there or practically ripped out for them already. It's a major issue to me.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 30, 2008, 04:32:20 PM
:cloud9: Hi James; glad you got in the thread........I got a question for you. If all these spirits, including the evil are of that One Spirit, how does that work? I'm not being argumentative here, I can see it possibly being both ways. Are you saying that God created these spirits to provide the contrast for the good, and in that way, they are one spirit? Blessings....
When Jesus says of the Prince of this age having nothing in Him that doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't have anything in the prince of this age. Jesus didn't even say He wasn't in Him, since "in Him we live and move and have our being." The victory of the cross and subsequent resurrection is the manifest acts of the being Who is inescapable foundation throughout reality. "...through [Christ] all exists. " At the end of Rm 11 it says of God, "From Him, through Him, and to Him is the all..."
I used to believe a saying I learned, that, "God is a circle Who's center is everywhere and Who's circumference is nowhere." But there is a real locus to God. It is the body of Christ which is entirely summed up and contained in the Head, Jesus. I tried to explain a little the issue of "one spirit" by comparing it to "one body." That is not quite so fraught with objection for some reason.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 30, 2008, 07:57:30 AM
And there is, "One body." The entire physical universe, its outer manifestation is the realm of embodiment. The inner travail of all creation is for the glory to be revealed through us to cover the realm of nature with the weight of glory. We are to, "Not judge according to appearances, but to judge righteous judgment." It is the higher more enduring substance of Spirit that drives the purpose of it all. It is by Spirit that all things change or remain the same.
The "one body" is in a naturalistic way perceived by ecological considerations. Ferguson in his work on "Types and Shadows" points out that the ancient rabbis taught that God would change and glorify the world reasoning that in order for Him to fulfill the promise He made to Abraham would require him to be resurrected and resurrected beings need an appropriate setting in which to act, a glorified world as habitation.
To describe, much less justify, the Oneness of God inclusive of all things seems almost unreachable to me. You remember, "...to head up the all in the Christ..." (Ep 1:10) is described as, "...the secret (mystery) of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)" (Ep 1:9). What I'm attempting to express about "the One-ing Spirit" is seen in that to agree with His revealed will and describes an outworking of something that in some way to God already is. There's a level in God in which not only all is His to survey, nor only that He is upon What all is dependent. There is more personal and intimate interest in us, certainly than those things which will not remain. When God brought forth creation, and light would be an example, it was made out of Himself. He is the Substance of All Form. The medieval theologians saying God made the world out of nothing meant that there was no material co-existing with Him. Not just as ultimate destiny (1 Co 15,) but already the apostle sees, "...the all and in all is Christ." (Co 3:11)
Worship the One Who is:
Substance of All Form
Measure of All Relationship
Placer of All Location
Significance of All Expression
Limit of All Duration
Manner of All Change
Standard of All Measure
Point Of All Progress
His name is Jesus!( from your brother, James Rohde)
14This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agapaō]
thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agapaō]
thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [phileō]
thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest [phileō]
thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love [phileō]
thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved [agapaō] following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
--John 21
I forgot to ask God whether I should post about this topic of "one spirit, one body," though I have mentioned it a couple times. Maybe I would've just muddled over the idea in isolation. It's too easily misunderstood. It's touches the extremes of our understanding.
And about the Greek use of various words for love...it's interesting that English keeps hacking away at it with just one: LOVE. I think God is making a point. The eros in marriage is the agapae of God and those three enjoy phileo: God, man and woman. There is not two senses in which the one points allegorically to the other. In "The Song of Songs" human love is the language of Divine love. Because there is a theological importance to carnal human love God included that theatrical in Sacred Scripture. We are to understand the sacred and the sexual are one.
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it..." (Ep 5:25)
"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself." (Ep 5:28)
(Thanks in part to professor Daniel Lys in Le plus beau chant de la creation [1968])
:cloud9: I love what you write James, although I have to read and re-read it several times to grasp some of it. But that's more than ok with me as I love to reach (smile) and stretch, and let Him speak to me about something I myself probably wouldn't have thought about. Blessings to you...
QuoteThe eros in marriage is the agapae of God and those three enjoy phileo:
Gee I love it when its easy to understand. :icon_flower:
Nice word James :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 04:23:25 AM
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 04:12:39 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 30, 2008, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 30, 2008, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 30, 2008, 10:37:58 PM
Tony , I am sorry I am using/ on your thread and as far as seeing what Jesus said at face value
you can do some of that , but for many of Christ words you cannot take it that literal
I will use this example
to stay on track here with your quest ok ? Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
now consider this Tony , I could go cut down a tree and drag it all over the place looking for Jesus to follow Him , but where is the literal Jesus at ? So I could actually and literally follow Him ?
see what I mean , interpertation is Key to Spiritual understanding what the WORD/SPIRIT is saying to us all
If it were that easy I would do it! cut down a tree and drag it all over town and look for Jesus to follow , its not that simple bro? see what I am trying to say in so many words?
peace , no one sees Jesus after the flesh anylonger , we are to not even see one another that way either , because we will see the wrong way
for eal so many would admire my trying or even think i be a nut case , but what would God do for me if I went around looking for Jesus to follow like that ?
Now that is a great post rosered. Since Jesus never explained what "cross" meant as He did most of his other sayings, I would take it to mean that it did not need explained. The disciples knew it meant dying to oneself for what the Lord wanted. If one was unable to do so then they should not be His disciples.
Just where would I find that in the scrips Tony.
They didnt Understand a Thing about Dying to Self , they Thought what they were doing was EARNING salvation ?.... OR Lest why did Peter Cut off the ear of the Centurian, to Protect Him who would be KING
or maybe after talking to this Rich man, which No Doubt was another Pharisee , or then come to Understand it ..EVEN THINKING THEY GAVE UP ALL THEY HAD....AND ALL Tony is all ,and if all, Then That to would conclude dying to themseves..They hadnt a CLUE
at this stage They were Babes....
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Taffy, obviously you are too sleepy to think clearly for your post actually proves my point.
The man who was not a disciple was clueless. The disciples were bearing their crosses and so were His disciples. They were dying to their wants to fulfill Christ's needs. They left all, gave up all. They said so themselves. The young man that came to Christ was not a disciple.
Again, Jesus did not have to explain the "take up your cross" to the disciples. They knew what it meant. The outsiders were obviously clueless and were not His disciples.
Jesus explained the wheat and the tares to His disciples but not to the outsiders because He said "Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."
Jesus explained what the cup and the bread were at the last supper. The figure and the actuality. But I'm sure you want to turn the actuality back into another figure just like you did with the wheat and tares.
MM...so They Gave all they HAD but still didnt UNDERSTAND....They understood that Much Peter Cuts the Centurians ear OFF...and thats Dying to self Is it.
Dying to self is the OLD MAN, which is SLAIN at the Cross , we THEN become a NEW MAN, BORN ANEW.
He Told them MANY THINGS THEY didnt UNDERSTAND....That Understanding was to Come later, then such Things would become Clear...
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
you did say Dying to self or doesnt one have to lose Life to Gain it
there were a couple OF other veiws given Tony or didnt ya read them?
As for the Richman,. you may just see he HAD MANY RICHES, and conclude from whats written HE had too much PRIDE in the LAW He kept..For its Immpossible to Please God with Out Faith, these were Jews Tony....Lazurus and The RICHMAN
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
he walks away SORROWFUL
Psa 69:29 But I [am] poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
THe disciples are astounded that This MAN who kept the Law SO well, would gain Nothing.....and your saying they KNEW, to KNOW is to Understand,.....Im afraid much of these lessons were Understood someway down the Line Bud.
Taffy, you are confusing the facts and building your case on that.
For instance the Christ said the personal bearing of one's cross was what was needed to be a disciple.
Mat 10:38 And he who is not taking his cross and following after Me is not worthy of Me.
If you remember, that is what the person in this thread originally brought up was about the cross and what it meant.
Now you bring up another whole different matter concerning the doing of the law. The young man with much possessions asked what he needed to do to have eonian life (Matt.19:16). And Jesus tells him to do the law. The kids says he does it all. Then Jesus says to him to sell all he has and give to the poor and follow Him. We are talking about figures of speech here, Taffy, in case you forgot. There are no figures of speech in the dialogue between Jesus and the rich kid.
The figure of speech I was addressing was about the disciples need for taking their cross and following after Christ. That figure obviously was well enough known to them or they would have asked Him what it meant like they did when He spoke to the populace in parables.
Also, friends, can we keep to the topic concerning Natural and Spiritual and figures of speech?
You are hijacking this thread with your chit chat of other things.
Blessings.
Tony
Quote
Taffy, you are confusing the facts and building your case on that.
For instance the Christ said the personal bearing of one's cross was what was needed to be a disciple.
Mat 10:38 And he who is not taking his cross and following after Me is not worthy of Me.
If you remember, that is what the person in this thread originally brought up was about the cross and what it meant.
Now you bring up another whole different matter concerning the doing of the law. The young man with much possessions asked what he needed to do to have eonian life (Matt.19:16). And Jesus tells him to do the law. The kids says he does it all. Then Jesus says to him to sell all he has and give to the poor and follow Him. We are talking about figures of speech here, Taffy, in case you forgot. There are no figures of speech in the dialogue between Jesus and the rich kid.
The figure of speech I was addressing was about the disciples need for taking their cross and following after Christ. That figure obviously was well enough known to them or they would have asked Him what it meant like they did when He spoke to the populace in parables.
THE fact was..
dying to self, your words Tony or have you forgot...capish :laughing7:
that was the Point I was Making.....They disciples were babes , Sons In the Making
The lesson was for the Disciples , For many are CALLED but few are Chosen , using one of their High Ranked Kinsmen in doing so....but me thinks maybe you dont see it.....for indeed they were Chosen
T
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 03:04:56 PM
Also, friends, can we keep to the topic concerning Natural and Spiritual and figures of speech?
You are hijacking this thread with your chit chat of other things.
Blessings.
Tony
By all means Tony :icon_flower:
The point is, Taffy is we are talking about figures of speech and how some turn those figures into other figures and think what they've said is "spiritual."
The person brought up Christ telling the disciples to take up their cross. They had to do that to be His disciples.
The rich young punk was not asking what was needed to be His disciple but what was needed to attain to eonian life. There were no figures used in what He said to the punk.
Jesus never told the young punk to pick up his cross and so die to himself. That was for the disciples.
Now can we keep with the topic?
Do you have any other figures of speech besides "cross," "tares" and "wheat" for this topic?
Love,
tony
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 03:30:36 PM
The point is, Taffy is we are talking about figures of speech and how some turn those figures into other figures and think what they've said is "spiritual."
The person brought up Christ telling the disciples to take up their cross. They had to do that to be His disciples.
The rich young punk was not asking what was needed to be His disciple but what was needed to attain to eonian life. There were no figures used in what He said to the punk.
Jesus never told the young punk to pick up his cross and so die to himself. That was for the disciples.
Now can we keep with the topic?
Do you have any other figures of speech besides "cross," "tares" and "wheat" for this topic?
Love,
tony
Does Tony stand for Teflon :icon_king:
no ,the Point of me coming back to the thread( for as I mentioned early I was donee with it) was your Comment on DYING to self..you stated They Knew what It was....which Obviously they DIDNT.
and then you go do what you always done,,can we please START agin..well no Tony Not this time.
:icon_flower:
Tony :icon_flower:
Im done with this Thread bro....
Im off back too sharing .......
No offence bro,... :HeartThrob:
Every blessing
Taffy
Tony,
How do you know Christ's explanation of the wheat & tares was literal & plain?
How can a kingdom literally have children?
How can Satan literally have children? Serpent seed doctrine?
Will unbelievers literally be burned in a literal furnace of literal fire? Is a lake a furnace?
How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?
If Jesus was speaking plainly then why did He say "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"?
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
If you were a contemporary of Paul and reading the words for the first time, what would keep you from criticizing Paul for allegorizing a literal historical account?
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 04:39:33 PM
Tony,
How do you know Christ's explanation of the wheat & tares was literal & plain?
Hi Bob, excellent questions! This is very good! . . .
The disciples asked what the meaning of the parable was. Jesus didn't answer their question with another parable.
And Jesus said: Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given." Once He told them they knew because it was given them to know.
Mat 13:36 Then, leaving the throngs, He entered into the house. And His disciples come to Him, saying, "Elucidate to us the parable of the darnel of the field."
Mat 13:37 Now He, answering, said, "He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind."
The Son of Mankind does not need to be made into a further figure of speech. Yet if you really think about it, practically ever word in every language is a figure of some sort. Every word presents to us a picture of some sort.
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Sons of the kingdom are the sons belonging to the kingdom.
The sons of the wicked one are the sons belonging to Satan.
Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.
No further explanation is needed.
Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."
They actually did that on the farms back then. In the conclusion of the eon it will be LIKE that.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The sons of the wicked one make snares and do lawlessness. They are the darnel planted by the Adversary. They are literally humans the Adversary has grow up amongst the sons Christ has put on the earth.
Mat 13:42 and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
As the farmer culls out the darnel and casts it into the fire to be burned up, so the darnel will be cast out of the kingdom which is like a furnace of fire.
QuoteHow can a kingdom literally have children?
How can Satan literally have children? Serpent seed doctrine?
How were the Pharisees children of the father, the Adversary? By literally doing that which he does.
QuoteWill unbelievers literally be burned in a literal furnace of literal fire? Is a lake a furnace?
No but they will go through fiery trials. Obviously the disciples knew exactly what He meant by furnace because Israel went through the furnace while held in Egypt for 400 some years in captivity.
QuoteHow would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?
Jesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.
QuoteIf Jesus was speaking plainly then why did He say "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"?
Jesus told them that it is given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom. Obviously they heard and knew after He told them the meaning of the parable.
QuoteGalatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
If you were a contemporary of Paul and reading the words for the first time, what would keep you from criticizing Paul for allegorizing a literal historical account?
I'm not against allegorizing a literal account. I'm against someone taking what Jesus said such and such is and turning it back into something He never said it was.
Besides, Paul explained exactly what the allegory was literally. He didn't muddy the waters by some esoteric means like what is done on these boards.
[/quote]
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat
:
old covenant to new.
Power of sin is the Law
Who was it that the law was given to??
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Act 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
Act 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Act 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not [so much as] to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when [as yet] he had no child.
Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat [them] evil four hundred years.
Act 7:7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.
Act 7:9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
Act 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
Act 7:12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
Act 7:13 And at the second [time] Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.
Act 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to [him], and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
Act 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
Act 7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem.
Act 7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Act 7:18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
Act 7:19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
Act 7:20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
Act 7:21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.
Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
Act 7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
Act 7:24 And seeing one [of them] suffer wrong, he defended [him], and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
Act 7:25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Act 7:26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
Act 7:28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?
Act 7:29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Act 7:31 When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him,
Act 7:32 [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
Act 7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Act 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Act 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Tony,
One of the things to pay attention to in St. Paul's writings is that he viewed himself as the Apocalypse. As any good preacher would, he called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh in Galatians 1, the bringer of eternal life in Titus 1, and his language in the last 4 chapters of 2Corinthians about coming and fighting against the rebellious with the Sword of his mouth forces me to conclude that his talk in Thessalonians of the Son of God coming and executing vengeance on the disobedient was his own (i.e. St. Paul's) ministry when you bare in mind 2Corinthians 10:3-6 in particular, though as I said 2Corinthians 10 and 2Corinthians 13 in their entirety "go there."
I believe that I could successfully argue that John "went there" too in Revelation, in viewing his own life and ministry as the Apocalypse. These Apostles would have been doing this based off of Jesus's doctrine of continuing in His Word in the way that He continued in the Word of the Father (i.e. John 8). The "I tried to worship this angel twice and he wouldn't let me" was more calculated than scholars have imagined. He was targeting the gnostics and their big ol' angelology that placed these hundreds of angels between us and God. And John's language in Revelation 19 is that he's coming to those Churches since Satan is no longer hindering him as he had through the many trials, being boiled in oil, etc., and his imprisonment on the isle of Patmos. These people were addressing a Greek mindset that needed the melodrama. Plus, they were training these Christian believers to expect more from the Christ within them. The millenium for every believer is when they've grown up and their inner image of themselves is the exact same as their inner image of Jesus because they are new creations in Him, "old things have passed away, behold all things are become new" and in the context of this new creation "all things are of God."
Quote from: martincisneros on December 31, 2008, 07:05:19 PM
The millenium for every believer is when they've grown up and their inner image of themselves is the exact same as their inner image of Jesus because they are new creations in Him, "old things have passed away, behold all things are become new" and in the context of this new creation "all things are of God."
:cloud9: AMEN AND AMEN :thumbsup:
How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?
It wouldn't, unless this "removal of these tares come from within; the same soil." And not another field!
Amazing how many point a finger away from themselves, yet, there are three pointing directly back at them.
But let us not take any responsibility because the thumb faces upward: "It's the woman, you gave me."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on December 31, 2008, 07:21:07 PM
Amazing how many point a finger away from themselves, yet, there are three pointing directly back at them.
But let us not take any responsibility because the thumb faces upward: "It's the woman, you gave me." peacemaker
:cloud9: EXACTLY.....that's what looking outward always does. Ah, but looking within and finding the truth about yourself and surrendering that kingdom over to the greater kingdom within, that's where revelation begins. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are. Until we rule our "kingdom" with a rod of iron, it will not be given to rule anything outside of it.
And the outer court had no covering so those who looked heavenward, saw a literal sun, moon, and stars and not the view of the priests who passed within the first veil and saw the light of the candlestick. Blessings...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:36:43 PM
Tony writes
QuoteJesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.
Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
But then he says this...
John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"
John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.
Which appears to connect to this same thought
Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.
The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured
2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**
Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.
But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.
Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night :grin:
Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And Taffy didn't think they understood these things yet the Lord asked them if they did and they said Yes:
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
I believe these same messengers/angels come in flaming fire:
2Th 1:7-8 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, (8) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
In the Bible
angelos can be heavenly messengers or earthly messengers. You can't just say that if angel is used in one passage about harvest and the disciples are in another audience with Christ on a different topic as to harvest that therefore the disciples are the angels spoken of.
The important point of the parable and of this thread is that if it says the reapers are angels then we are not to turn that into something else like another figure. If He says that the wheat is the sons of the kingdom then that is what the wheat is . . . not our flesh.
If he says the sower is the Son of Mankind then that is who the sower is, not some other figure.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:41:03 PM
How does one cast out the bondwomans son literally though? :grin:
When Abraham's wife came to him and said
Gen 21:10 And saying is she to Abraham, "Drive out this maidservant an her son, for not shall he enjoy the tenancy--the son of this maidservant--with my son, with Isaac!"
And so Abraham cast out the maid with her son . . . literally.
I have the same problem as Tony with that passage on wheat and tares. I keep trying to see it the way others describe, but I keep running into problems with seeing it that way. If the tares are our flesh, when did the evil one sow [give us] flesh? If the wheat is our spirit, why was our spirit sown into flesh of tares? Sorry,it just doesn't make sense to me.
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 08:18:09 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:41:03 PM
How does one cast out the bondwomans son literally though? :grin:
When Abraham's wife came to him and said
Gen 21:10 And saying is she to Abraham, "Drive out this maidservant an her son, for not shall he enjoy the tenancy--the son of this maidservant--with my son, with Isaac!"
And so Abraham cast out the maid with her son . . . literally.
well, he did, but then things continued on and the law came and men went into bondage.
But, Paul speaks as though it is an order for us to do it now--
Galatians 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture?
Cast out the bondwoman and her son:
for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.He is saying there, move from flesh to Spirit. He's talking in metaphors.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 31, 2008, 06:43:13 PM
Tony,
One of the things to pay attention to in St. Paul's writings is that he viewed himself as the Apocalypse. As any good preacher would, he called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh in Galatians 1, the bringer of eternal life in Titus 1, and his language in the last 4 chapters of 2Corinthians about coming and fighting against the rebellious with the Sword of his mouth forces me to conclude that his talk in Thessalonians of the Son of God coming and executing vengeance on the disobedient was his own (i.e. St. Paul's) ministry when you bare in mind 2Corinthians 10:3-6 in particular, though as I said 2Corinthians 10 and 2Corinthians 13 in their entirety "go there."
Dear brother Martin, could you give references for the sword usage by Paul?
I can only find it in these verses:
(Rom 8:35) What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
(Rom 13:4) For it is God's servant for your good. Now if you should be doing evil, fear, for not feignedly is it wearing the sword. For it is God's servant, an avenger for indignation to him who is committing evil."
(Eph 6:17) And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God."
I can't see where Paul called himself the Son of God manifested in the flesh.
Unless you are using this verse:
Gal 1:16 "to unveil His Son in me that I may be evangelizing Him among the nations, I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood"
which in that case I cannot see where Paul called himself the Son of God.
I can't find in your reference to Titus 1 that Paul is the bringer of eternal life. Can you show me?
In your 2 Corinthians passages I can see where Paul would avenge
Paul also said in 2 Cor.13:10:
I should not be using severity, according to the authority which the Lord gives me for building up and not for pulling down.
The apostles were given the authority just as Peter did with Ananias and Sapphira yet it was not Peter but the holy spirit.
I also think that the Corinthian passages you speak of were concerning believers. The Thessalonian passage about the Lord coming back again with His fiery messengers in 2 Thess.1:7 is not Paul but the Lord and the messengers and is concerned with unbelievers.
Maybe I misunderstand you.
The Corinthians testing Christ in Paul and Paul being the Son of God are two entirely different things in 2 Cor.13:3.
Christ also said that he who has seen me has seen the Father yet Christ was not the Father for the Father sent him into the world and the Father remained in heaven as Christ taught them to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven . . . ."
So just as they saw the Father through Jesus' actions and love so also was Christ' power evident in Paul.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:32:51 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 08:15:05 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:36:43 PM
Tony writes
QuoteJesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.
Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
But then he says this...
John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"
John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.
Which appears to connect to this same thought
Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.
The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured
2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**
Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.
But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.
Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night :grin:
Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:
So Christ did not appear once IN the end of the world?
So are you saying there is YET four months (or whatever amount of time there is) UNTIL the harvest? :grin:
Nothing applies huh? :grin: Just your word bout it? :grin:
No sweetheart, Jesus did not appear at the end of the world.
Here is the verse:
Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest."
Please note that "eons" is plural. When the eons end then sin will finally be repudiated due to His sacrifice. And it was for that reason He was manifest.
I think that the harvest Jesus spoke of in John 4 did come but the harvest of Matthew comes at the end of the eon, the end of this eon in which we life.
No sweetheart, it is not my word about it but THE Word has the final say.
John 4
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now. This is the white harvest. White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley. The barley fields turn white at harvest time. Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.
So, how do we read this? He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?
Tony,
But see your interpretation of Christ's explanation was not completely literal either.
You intepreted "world" literally as this world, but you did not interpret "children" literally. A follower of the serpent seed doctrine would be telling you to quit interpreting "children" figuratively. "Believe the scriptures Tony! They are LITERALLY the offspring of Satan!!"
Ok, so:
- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan.
- Field means world which means world.
- Sowing means planting or placing.
But then your interpretation does not agree with certain facts:
1. Satan does not take people who are already wicked (tare seeds) and put then in this world to mature.
2. Jesus does not take people who are already good (wheat seeds) and put them in this world to mature.
3. Wicked people do not end up all being wicked people, destined to be burned at the end of the age.
For example, Paul was at one time doing the works of Satan. He persecuted and sought to kill Christ's church. So Paul was a tare planted in this world by Satan. Therefore, according to your interpretation, Paul should have been allowed to mature as a tare and then burned at the end of the age.
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
YES ! i have considered that Molly! and Kim you know I have considered the leprocy the curse that Moses witnessed was the 2nd sign from God
whos heads are ripe for harvest?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:43:34 PM
John 4
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now. This is the white harvest. White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley. The barley fields turn white at harvest time. Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.
So, how do we read this? He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?
Ever run white and leprocy? :grin:
No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:43:34 PM
John 4
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now. This is the white harvest. White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley. The barley fields turn white at harvest time. Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.
So, how do we read this? He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?
Ever run white and leprocy? :grin:
No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.
Every plant my heavenly father hath not planted?
Why don't you just tell me what you're thinking. He wants them to harvest lepers? Lepers is a metaphor for something? Lepers are the white harvest?
But, Jesus is preparing for passover. Pentecost will follow. But before that, the barley harvest, the firstfruits waved in sheafs before God. Jesus is the first of the firstfruits, but others will follow. There are different ages and different harvests. Are we in the age of the firstfruits?
And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
Exd 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
Exd 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.
Exd 4:7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his [other] flesh.
Exd 4:8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
the VOICE OF the Latter Sign is Jesus Christ
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Exd 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour [it] upon the dry [land]: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry [land].
here we see that in Revelation above verse
the Laws plural of the old and new are always in effect , to me the only conclusion can be God does and invividual work in people
one by one
I know the law and prophts spoke by the Spirit of Christ they were servants
the SON OF GOD speaks now making all the difference .........
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:43:34 PM
John 4
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then comest the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
He's telling his disciples the fields are ready to harvest now. This is the white harvest. White speaks of purity, of the priesthood, and also of barley. The barley fields turn white at harvest time. Barley is the firstfruits of Pentecost.
So, how do we read this? He is telling them to go forth and give the gospel to everyone, but only harvest the barley because that is what is ready for harvest?
Ever run white and leprocy? :grin:
No but leprosy is not a plant which is harvested, either.
Every plant my heavenly father hath not planted?
Why don't you just tell me what you're thinking. He wants them to harvest lepers? Lepers is a metaphor for something? Lepers are the white harvest?
But, Jesus is preparing for passover. Pentecost will follow. But before that, the barley harvest, the firstfruits waved in sheafs before God. Jesus is the first of the firstfruits, but others will follow. There are different ages and different harvests. Are we in the age of the firstfruits?
that is the whole point Molly Jesus come to the lost sheep of Israel his appearance , ah but the CROSS OF CHRIST IS THE TRUE SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT Jesus come but come to heal the sick lame , maimed etc blind ..
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:16:01 PM
Heres where I was looking regarding the white
lev 13:13 Then the priest shall consider: and, behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: it is all turned white: he is cleaN
john 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I can only type so much here but he did say the harvest white, sure though there is Christ the firstfuits and Paul speaks of having a harvest among them as well though right?
GOOD JOB KIMMY your right sis , it makes them clean !!! wowza ripe for harvest . SPOKEN BY THE SON !! Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet,
but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Jhn 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Jhn 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
Jhn 13:14
If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. Jhn 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
the feet has to do with teaching ! we are to wash one anothers'' feet''
this may be why ???? it shall bruise your heel but satans head ?
1) a foot, both of men or beast
a) often in the orient,
one put his foot on vanquishedb)
of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Jhn 13:17
If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 08:41:54 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 08:32:51 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 08:15:05 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:36:43 PM
Tony writes
QuoteJesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.
Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
But then he says this...
John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"
John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.
Which appears to connect to this same thought
Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.
The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured
2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**
Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.
But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.
Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night :grin:
Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:
So Christ did not appear once IN the end of the world?
So are you saying there is YET four months (or whatever amount of time there is) UNTIL the harvest? :grin:
Nothing applies huh? :grin: Just your word bout it? :grin:
No sweetheart, Jesus did not appear at the end of the world.
Here is the verse:
Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest."
Please note that "eons" is plural. When the eons end then sin will finally be repudiated due to His sacrifice. And it was for that reason He was manifest.
I think that the harvest Jesus spoke of in John 4 did come but the harvest of Matthew comes at the end of the eon, the end of this eon in which we life.
No sweetheart, it is not my word about it but THE Word has the final say.
He still came at the end of the "eons" (ages, or "world" as rendered in the KJV to which Fire was referring) did He not?
So if "the harvest" takes place at "the end of the world" (ages) and Christ came "at the end of the world" (ages) and He said (when He was here) that the field was "white already to harvest" and He said that in the time of harvest (which takes place "at the end of the world" or "ages", which time it was when He came) He would send forth His angels to reap and He said "I sent you to reap" (speaking to His disciples), how are they NOT "the angels" (the reapers) of whom Christ spoke? And how is the harvest of John 4 and the harvest of Mat 13 not the same harvest?
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 08:58:28 PM
And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
Exd 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
Exd 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.
Exd 4:7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his [other] flesh.
Exd 4:8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
the VOICE OF the Latter Sign is Jesus Christ
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Exd 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour [it] upon the dry [land]: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry [land].
here we see that in Revelation above verse
the Laws plural of the old and new are always in effect , to me the only conclusion can be God does and invividual work in people
one by one
I know the law and prophts spoke by the Spirit of Christ they were servants
the SON OF GOD speaks now making all the difference .........
Really........yeah Really :thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:29:55 PM
Theres Chris HIYA Chris! :grin: What took ya so long?
Kidding :grin:
I'm a slow reader. :grin:
I also made a longer post but then decided to delete some of what I wrote. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:32:31 PM
And Hi Grahm cracker! Your awake :grin:
Yo sis was awake earlier..Lappy had a New Year Fit...so Im now on Traceys :icon_flower:
hows those elbows and Back
Hiya Chrissie.....bout Time girl.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 09:24:03 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:16:01 PM
Heres where I was looking regarding the white
lev 13:13 Then the priest shall consider: and, behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: it is all turned white: he is cleaN
john 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I can only type so much here but he did say the harvest white, sure though there is Christ the firstfuits and Paul speaks of having a harvest among them as well though right?
GOOD JOB KIMMY your right sis , it makes them clean !!! wowza ripe for harvest . SPOKEN BY THE SON !! Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Jhn 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Jhn 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Jhn 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
the feet has to do with teaching ! we are to wash one anothers" feet"
this may be why ???? it shall bruise your heel but satans head ?
1) a foot, both of men or beast
a) often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished
b) of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet
Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Jhn 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
modified my post , just thinking our loud Kimmy , check your pm sis ! :HeartThrob:
Chrissie , is it really Chrissie!!!!!!! whooooooppppiiieee!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
I am now in heaven my best buds are once again here !!!!!!! :laughing7: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:32:31 PM
And Hi Grahm cracker! Your awake :grin:
Yo sis was awake earlier..Lappy had a New Year Fit...so Im now on Traceys :icon_flower:
hows those elbows and Back
Hiya Chrissie.....bout Time girl.... :icon_flower:
:happygrin: HiYa Graham! I've been floating around, just hasn't been a lot going on at any of the forums lately, it seems.
Stayed at MySpace for a while but left there a couple of weeks ago. So just been chillin. :icon_flower:
The wheat bows it's head just before the harvest (the tares don't).
He's harvesting the Melchizadek priests.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:40:50 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:32:31 PM
And Hi Grahm cracker! Your awake :grin:
Yo sis was awake earlier..Lappy had a New Year Fit...so Im now on Traceys :icon_flower:
hows those elbows and Back
Hiya Chrissie.....bout Time girl.... :icon_flower:
:happygrin: HiYa Graham! I've been floating around, just hasn't been a lot going on at any of the forums lately, it seems.
Stayed at MySpace for a while but left there a couple of weeks ago. So just been chillin. :icon_flower:
we go where we are led sis...one door closes another opens.egh?
well nice to see ya Posting again and sharing with some Old friends, even if the season be a Short one :HeartThrob:
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
True indeed, Graham. :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
HiYa Rosey!! :HeartThrob: :bgdance:
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:20:52 PM
I have the same problem as Tony with that passage on wheat and tares. I keep trying to see it the way others describe, but I keep running into problems with seeing it that way. If the tares are our flesh, when did the evil one sow [give us] flesh? If the wheat is our spirit, why was our spirit sown into flesh of tares? Sorry,it just doesn't make sense to me.
Ok, let me explain it another way that might alleviate that contradiction. The seed of the adversary is not our physical flesh.
We know that Jesus does not directly sow (put) little good-godly people (wheat seed) into the physical world and Satan does not put little evil-wicked people (tare seed) into the physical world. That's basically the serpent-seed doctrine.
Rather:
Jesus sows His Seed which are His Words of Truth into the minds & hearts of people.
Satan sows his seed which are his lies & deception into the minds & hearts of people.
Each seed when "listened to" forms a spirit or nature within us.
Each spirit is the offspring or child produced by each seed.
They are opposing spirits.
Both seeds are allowed to grow and mature.
God does not just "kick out" are person's carnal, lustful, selfish nature the minute it forms.
At the "end of the aion" (whenever that is) the spirit of the wicked one is removed & destroyed.
- Zepheniah 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.
Seed of Satan PRODUCES thy disdainful pride, magnify thyself, a deceitful tongue, speaks vanity, does iniquity
Seed of Christ PRODUCES a meek and lowly people, a pure tongue, the remnant of Israel, does not iniquity, speaks no vanity
- Romans 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
At the same time, any person who is obeying either the Spirit of Christ or obeying the spirit of the adversary IS that person and can be called a Child of God or a child of Satan, a wheat or a tare.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 09:54:52 PM
Hey Rosie! Im sorry sis things going too fast for me and I so like to take my time and answer each post, that was a great post. Amen! He washes us in various ways dont He? It shows they are clean in this manner as well (thought this was kool too)
John 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
John 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Lev 15:8 And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean :grin: then he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Not sure it fits but I thought, how interesting? An issue of spit? :grin:
oh yes , Sis seeing something new ! and loving it !!
Hi ya sista Chris Chrissie hee hee :girlheart: happy to see you leaping today !
Quote from: Rosethat is the whole point Molly Jesus come to the lost sheep of Israel his appearance , ah but the CROSS OF CHRIST IS THE TRUE SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT Jesus come but come to heal the sick lame , maimed etc blind ..
Yes, because that is what a Priest does! He heals sick people.
11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."--Mat 9
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:20:52 PM
I have the same problem as Tony with that passage on wheat and tares. I keep trying to see it the way others describe, but I keep running into problems with seeing it that way. If the tares are our flesh, when did the evil one sow [give us] flesh? If the wheat is our spirit, why was our spirit sown into flesh of tares? Sorry,it just doesn't make sense to me.
Ok, let me explain it another way that might alleviate that contradiction. The seed of the adversary is not our physical flesh.
We know that Jesus does not directly sow (put) little good-godly people (wheat seed) into the physical world and Satan does not put little evil-wicked people (tare seed) into the physical world. That's basically the serpent-seed doctrine.
Rather:
Jesus sows His Seed which are His Words of Truth into the minds & hearts of people.
Satan sows his seed which are his lies & deception into the minds & hearts of people.
Each seed when "listened to" forms a spirit or nature within us.
Each spirit is the offspring or children produced by each seed.
They are opposing spirits.
Both seeds are allowed to grow and mature.
God does not just "kick out" are person's carnal, lustful, selfish nature the minute it forms.
At the "end of the aion" (whenever that is) the spirit of the wicked one is removed & destroyed.
- Zepheniah 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.
Seed of Satan PRODUCES thy disdainful pride, magnify thyself, a deceitful tongue, speaks vanity, does iniquity
Seed of Christ PRODUCES a meek and lowly people, a pure tongue, the remnant of Israel, does not iniquity, speaks no vanity
- Romans 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
At the same time, any person who is obeying either the Spirit of Christ or obeying the spirit of the adversary IS that person and can be called a Child of God or a child of Satan, a wheat or a tare.
Excellent explanation!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
Do you mean Saul? :bigGrin:
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. --Mat 3
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Hi Chrissie,
that verse, re: FIRST intrigues me too.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
ah, i get it
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
You can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity.
Paul at maturity was a wheat.
The individual:
Laban La'ban (white).
1. Son of Bethuel, brother of Rebekah and father of Leah and Rachel. (b.c. about 1860-1740.) The elder branch of the family remained at Haran, Mesopotamia, when Abraham removed to the land of Canaan, and it is there that we first meet with Laban, as taking the leading part in the betrothal of his sister Rebekah to her cousin Isaac. Gene 24:10, 29-60; 27:43; 29:5 The next time Laban appears in the sacred narrative it is as the host of his nephew Jacob at Haran. Gene 29:13, 14 [JACOB] Jacob married Rachel and Leah, daughters of Laban, and remained with him 20 years, b.c. 1760-1740. But Laban's dishonest and overreaching practice toward his nephew shows from what source Jacob inherited his tendency to sharp dealing. Nothing is said of Laban after Jacob left him.
2. One of the landmarks named in the obscure and disputed passage Deut 1:1 The mention of Hezeroth has perhaps led to the only conjecture regarding Laban of which the writer is aware, namely, that it is identical with LIBNAH. Numb 33:20
—Smith's Bible Dictionary
The Corporate, (with the city #2 above) a Nation:
Lebanon
White, incense.
—Hitchcock's Dictionary of Bible Names
Lebanon Leb'anon, a mountain range in the north of Palestine. The name Lebanon signifies white, and was applied either on account of snow which, during a great part of the year, cover its whole summit, or on account of the white color of its limestone cliffs and peaks. It is the "white mountain"—the Mont Blane of Palestine. Lebanon is represented in Scripture as lying upon the northern border of the land of Israel. Deut 1:7; 11:24; Josh 1:4 Two distinct ranges bear this name. They run in parallel lines from southwest to northeast for about 90 geographical miles, enclosing between them a long, fertile valley from five to eight miles wide, anciently called Cœle-Syria. The western range is the "Libanus" of the old geographers and the Lebanon of Scripture. The eastern range was called "Anti-Libanus" by geographers, and "Lebanon toward the sunrising" by the sacred writers. Josh 13:5
1. Lebanon—the western range—commences on the south of the deep ravine of the Litany, the ancient river Leontes, which drains the valley of Cole-Syria, and falls into the Mediterranean five miles north of Tyre. It runs northeast in a straight line parallel to the coast, to the opening from the Mediterranean into the plain of Emesa, called in Scripture the "entrance of Hamath." Numb 34:8 Here Nehr el-Kebir—the ancient river Eleutherus—sweeps round its northern end, as the Leontes does round its southern. The average elevation of the range is from 6000 to 8000 feet; but two peaks rise considerably higher. On the summits of both these peaks the snow remains in patches during the whole summer. The line of cultivation runs along at the height of about 6000 feet; and below this the features of the western slopes are entirely different. The rugged limestone banks are scantily clothed with the evergreen oak, and the sandstone with pines; while every available spot is carefully cultivated. The cultivation is wonderful, and shows what all Syria might be if under a good government. Fig trees cling to the naked rock; vines are trained along narrow ledges; long ranges of mulberries, on terraces like steps of stairs, cover the more gentle declivities; and dense groves of olives fill up the bottoms of the glens. Hundreds of villages are seen—here built among labyrinths of rocks, there clinging like among labyrinths of rocks, there clinging like swallows' nests to the sides of cliffs; while convents, no less numerous, are perched on the top of every peak. The vine is still largely cultivated in every part of the mountain. Lebanon also abounds in olives, figs and mulberries; while some remnants exist of the forests of pine, oak and cedar which formerly covered it. 1 Kin 5:6; Ezra 3:7; Psal 29:5; Isai 14:8 Considerable numbers of wild beasts still inhabit its retired glens and higher peaks; the writer has seen jackals, hyænas, wolves, bears and panthers. 2 Kin 14:9; Song 4:8; Hab 2:17 Along the base of Lebanon runs the irregular plain of Phœnicia—nowhere more than two miles wide, and often interrupted by bold rocky spurs that dip into the sea. The main ridge of Lebanon is composed of Jura limestone, and abounds in fossils. Long belts of more recent sandstone run along the western slopes, which are in places largely impregnated with iron. Lebanon was originally inhabited by the Hivites and Giblites. Josh 13:5, 6; Judg 3:3 The whole mountain range was assigned to the Israelites, but was never conquered by them. Josh 13:2-6; Judg 3:1-3 During the Jewish monarchy it appears to have been subject of the Phœnicians. 1 Kin 5:2-6; Ezra 3:7 From the Greek conquest until modern times Lebanon had no separate history.
2. Anti-Libanus.—The main chain of Anti-Libanus commences in the plateau of Bashan, near the parallel of Cæsarea Philippi, runs north to Hermon, and then northeast in a straight line till it stinks down into the great plain of Emesa, not far from the site of Riblah. Hermon is the loftiest peak; the next highest is a few miles north of the site of Abila, beside the village of Bludan, and has an elevation of about 7000 feet. The rest of the ridge averages about 5000 feet; it is in general bleak and barren, with shelving gray declivities, gray cliffs and gray rounded summits. Here and there we meet with thin forests of dwarf oak and juniper. The western slopes descend abruptly into the Buka'a; but the features of the eastern are entirely different. Three side ridges here radiate from Hermon, like the ribs of an open fan, and form the supporting walls of three great terraces. Anti-Libanus is only once distinctly mentioned in Scripture, where it is accurately described as "Lebanon toward the sunrising." Josh 13:5
—Smith's Bible Dictionary
(Hermon is the Mt of Transfiguration)
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
Molly,
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are asking me. I was simply pointing out that Christ said that in the time of harvest the tares would be harvested first. I was asking you how that factors into what you said about the priest being harvested now?
wow good stuff Bob and Chrissie and Molly
I can see that now , thanks for the clarity
it took Jesus coming to Saul /Paul to change his position name and vessel of wrath to honour to God
when he was a child spoke as a child , when he become a man he put away childish things ,,
the things of men
and satans power hummm ???
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
seems Saul /Paul suffered for doing evil and for doing good a switch sides type thing ?
Quote from: Zeek on December 31, 2008, 10:04:40 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Hi Chrissie,
that verse, re: FIRST intrigues me too.
That was the first "dilemma" that I faced after coming to an understanding of UR, based on a pre-millennial view. :grin:
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 31, 2008, 10:07:21 PM
The individual:
Laban La'ban (white).
1. Son of Bethuel, brother of Rebekah and father of Leah and Rachel. (b.c. about 1860-1740.) The elder branch of the family remained at Haran, Mesopotamia, when Abraham removed to the land of Canaan, and it is there that we first meet with Laban, as taking the leading part in the betrothal of his sister Rebekah to her cousin Isaac. Gene 24:10, 29-60; 27:43; 29:5 The next time Laban appears in the sacred narrative it is as the host of his nephew Jacob at Haran. Gene 29:13, 14 [JACOB] Jacob married Rachel and Leah, daughters of Laban, and remained with him 20 years, b.c. 1760-1740. But Laban's dishonest and overreaching practice toward his nephew shows from what source Jacob inherited his tendency to sharp dealing. Nothing is said of Laban after Jacob left him.
2. One of the landmarks named in the obscure and disputed passage Deut 1:1 The mention of Hezeroth has perhaps led to the only conjecture regarding Laban of which the writer is aware, namely, that it is identical with LIBNAH. Numb 33:20
—Smith's Bible Dictionary
The Corporate, (with the city #2 above) a Nation:
Lebanon
White, incense.
—Hitchcock's Dictionary of Bible Names
Lebanon Leb'anon, a mountain range in the north of Palestine. The name Lebanon signifies white, and was applied either on account of snow which, during a great part of the year, cover its whole summit, or on account of the white color of its limestone cliffs and peaks. It is the "white mountain"—the Mont Blane of Palestine. Lebanon is represented in Scripture as lying upon the northern border of the land of Israel. Deut 1:7; 11:24; Josh 1:4 Two distinct ranges bear this name. They run in parallel lines from southwest to northeast for about 90 geographical miles, enclosing between them a long, fertile valley from five to eight miles wide, anciently called Cœle-Syria. The western range is the "Libanus" of the old geographers and the Lebanon of Scripture. The eastern range was called "Anti-Libanus" by geographers, and "Lebanon toward the sunrising" by the sacred writers. Josh 13:5
1. Lebanon—the western range—commences on the south of the deep ravine of the Litany, the ancient river Leontes, which drains the valley of Cole-Syria, and falls into the Mediterranean five miles north of Tyre. It runs northeast in a straight line parallel to the coast, to the opening from the Mediterranean into the plain of Emesa, called in Scripture the "entrance of Hamath." Numb 34:8 Here Nehr el-Kebir—the ancient river Eleutherus—sweeps round its northern end, as the Leontes does round its southern. The average elevation of the range is from 6000 to 8000 feet; but two peaks rise considerably higher. On the summits of both these peaks the snow remains in patches during the whole summer. The line of cultivation runs along at the height of about 6000 feet; and below this the features of the western slopes are entirely different. The rugged limestone banks are scantily clothed with the evergreen oak, and the sandstone with pines; while every available spot is carefully cultivated. The cultivation is wonderful, and shows what all Syria might be if under a good government. Fig trees cling to the naked rock; vines are trained along narrow ledges; long ranges of mulberries, on terraces like steps of stairs, cover the more gentle declivities; and dense groves of olives fill up the bottoms of the glens. Hundreds of villages are seen—here built among labyrinths of rocks, there clinging like among labyrinths of rocks, there clinging like swallows' nests to the sides of cliffs; while convents, no less numerous, are perched on the top of every peak. The vine is still largely cultivated in every part of the mountain. Lebanon also abounds in olives, figs and mulberries; while some remnants exist of the forests of pine, oak and cedar which formerly covered it. 1 Kin 5:6; Ezra 3:7; Psal 29:5; Isai 14:8 Considerable numbers of wild beasts still inhabit its retired glens and higher peaks; the writer has seen jackals, hyænas, wolves, bears and panthers. 2 Kin 14:9; Song 4:8; Hab 2:17 Along the base of Lebanon runs the irregular plain of Phœnicia—nowhere more than two miles wide, and often interrupted by bold rocky spurs that dip into the sea. The main ridge of Lebanon is composed of Jura limestone, and abounds in fossils. Long belts of more recent sandstone run along the western slopes, which are in places largely impregnated with iron. Lebanon was originally inhabited by the Hivites and Giblites. Josh 13:5, 6; Judg 3:3 The whole mountain range was assigned to the Israelites, but was never conquered by them. Josh 13:2-6; Judg 3:1-3 During the Jewish monarchy it appears to have been subject of the Phœnicians. 1 Kin 5:2-6; Ezra 3:7 From the Greek conquest until modern times Lebanon had no separate history.
2. Anti-Libanus.—The main chain of Anti-Libanus commences in the plateau of Bashan, near the parallel of Cæsarea Philippi, runs north to Hermon, and then northeast in a straight line till it stinks down into the great plain of Emesa, not far from the site of Riblah. Hermon is the loftiest peak; the next highest is a few miles north of the site of Abila, beside the village of Bludan, and has an elevation of about 7000 feet. The rest of the ridge averages about 5000 feet; it is in general bleak and barren, with shelving gray declivities, gray cliffs and gray rounded summits. Here and there we meet with thin forests of dwarf oak and juniper. The western slopes descend abruptly into the Buka'a; but the features of the eastern are entirely different. Three side ridges here radiate from Hermon, like the ribs of an open fan, and form the supporting walls of three great terraces. Anti-Libanus is only once distinctly mentioned in Scripture, where it is accurately described as "Lebanon toward the sunrising." Josh 13:5
—Smith's Bible Dictionary
thanks James !! shows alot pertaining to the whiteness of lebanon ,,, cool ! leprosy white as snow !
and the priesthood changes !!
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
Amen! The tares are gathered to be burned while the wheat is gathered to the barn!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
again you are right Bob , seeing he was undergoing the body of death and declared Jesus was the one who would deliver him from that body
there are to bodies
the harlots body church =death
and the true bride , Jesus Body Chruch where offspring /children are concieved like thoughts , they are concieved by hearing and this is where faith comes in right ?
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:20:14 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
again you are right Bob , seeing he was undergoing the body of death and declared Jesus was the one who would deliver him from that body
there are to bodies
the harlots body church =death
and the true bride , Jesus Body Chruch where offspring /children are concieved like thoughts , they are concieved by hearing and this is where faith comes in right ?
right, by faith. but for what purpose??
to bring in the harvest.
baptized for the dead
1Cr 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Yes the dead , how could i have missed this ? :mblush:
Also the tares & wheat do not have to be fully mature (havesting time) to identify them. They were identified sooner, when their fruit appeared.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
So Saul's fruit should identify him, no? Does early wheat have tare fruit and vice versa? I don't think so.
- Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Quote from: Zeek on December 31, 2008, 10:24:06 PM
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
thanks Zeek brother !! and Kimbo
you know we are whirrling here so fast I cannot keep thinking and posting hee hee Thanking God for his mercy here today and for you all!!!
God love ya :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:20:14 PMagain you are right Bob , seeing he was undergoing the body of death and declared Jesus was the one who would deliver him from that body
Are you referring to this?
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Quotethere are to bodies
the harlots body church =death
and the true bride , Jesus Body Chruch where offspring /children are concieved like thoughts , they are concieved by hearing and this is where faith comes in right ?
Yes!
amen Kimmy !! thats right sis another connection sis !
and Bob , the darnels are poision seed they are black not White as wheat ! reminds me of hairs as thoughts being black or white !
we cannot make them black or white!
destroy the evil thoughts ? bundle and burn them sons /offspring of the devil ?
I always thought of wheat and tares as good thought or bad thoughts on our heads as hair , with Christ being the Head they are all white!
the hair of women on the locusts Rev 9 heads were long grew as such , to be that way on purpose by the Lord God for desturction
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black
QuoteJesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed
Gee Im having major probs with the Lappys...Crashing all the Time...agh..Im behind this thread by many posts.. :sigh:
Who ever said That...I concur.
So if the Mature Tare Is destroyed , First being a Pharisee after LAW, Twas the Law which kept The flesh( Soul - heart and mind, the Enmity) from entering , By Faith we enter Through, which Gives us a New HEART and Mind, Restoring the Soul....
Kinda seems To speak of the Outer man, The pharisees( jews by Carnal Nature) but equally so, the Inner man.
can someone show ME what Im not seeing..seems Pneuma, Zeek and Rosey? seem to see a similer thing?..equates to Both Poisoned Tongue and Wholesome Tongue, Good thought , Evil Thoughts..and list continues?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:28:27 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 31, 2008, 10:23:08 PM
1Cr 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Exactly... if the dead dont rise...fighting beasts for nothing? :grin:
thought of these sis ! 1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
Molly,
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are asking me. I was simply pointing out that Christ said that in the time of harvest the tares would be harvested first. I was asking you how that factors into what you said about the priest being harvested now?
This is a Passover and Pentecost firstfruits harvest--barley and wheat.
John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring
a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
--Lev 23
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:32:23 PM
amen Kimmy !! thats right sis another connection sis !
and Bob , the darnels are poision seed they are black not White as wheat ! reminds me of hairs as thoughts being black or white !
we cannot make them black or white!
destroy the evil thoughts ? bundle and burn them sons /offspring of the devil ?
I always thought of wheat and tares as good thought or bad thoughts on our heads as hair , with Christ being the Head they are all white!
the hair of women on the locusts Rev 9 heads were long grew as such , to be that way on purpose by the Lord God for desturction
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black
:icon_flower: :thumbsup:
Whats Flesh Is Flesh and Whats SPirit IS SPIRIT :HeartThrob:
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
Paul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb.
He was just seriously misinformed.
Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
Paul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb.
He was just seriously misinformed.
Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
Molly I kinda Thought That which Paul speaks Of In Galatians Being set APART from HIS Mothers Womb was The origin of His Birth, ie Now seperated from Judaism To Christ
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:44:20 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
Molly,
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are asking me. I was simply pointing out that Christ said that in the time of harvest the tares would be harvested first. I was asking you how that factors into what you said about the priest being harvested now?
This is a Passover and Pentecost firstfruits harvest--barley and wheat.
John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
--Lev 23
Sorry, but I am still not sure how that answers my question. :dontknow:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
:grin: Is it? Most likely cause I dont have scripts in front of me, see how many mistakes can be made without them? Its always ONE word out of place and a war begins :grin: THATS why I cant stand not quoting scripts... yall jumping on me and ya's know how I hate posting without them :grin:
THIS IS WHY!! :grin:
:laughing7:
Sorry My Turn to be Literal..opps :icon_flower:
Shall I come with you with a a Rod..Or Love....Kinda Like the Latter me self, But that Rod is always Needed :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:51:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PMYou can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity. Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Jesus judged men as tares because they sought to kill him, which is exactly what Saul was doing as a mature tare. Paul of course was wheat, but the spirit previously in him that was a tare was never turned into wheat, it was simply destroyed.
Paul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb.
He was just seriously misinformed.
Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
Molly I kinda Thought That which Paul speaks Of In Galatians Being set APART from HIS Mothers Womb was The origin of His Birth, ie Now seperated from Judaism To Christ
15But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased
16To reveal (unveil, disclose) His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles (the non-Jewish world) as the glad tidings (Gospel), immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood [did not consult or counsel with any frail human being or communicate with anyone].--Gal 1
QuoteYou were just harrassing me for nothing its so your style... thanks pal lol
Kinda Like to Keep ya on ya toes..In case ya Get Lazy :laughing7:
Ya doing great Girl...what wid ya back and Elbows....In fact Im amazed, Nigh on 300 post in just over a week,,just as well yous disabled some...Give the rest of us a Chance :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
:grin: Is it? Most likely cause I dont have scripts in front of me, see how many mistakes can be made without them? Its always ONE word out of place and a war begins :grin: THATS why I cant stand not quoting scripts... yall jumping on me and ya's know how I hate posting without them :grin:
THIS IS WHY!! :grin:
i will help sis ,
Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:27 And
he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And
she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and
he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
sis I see Paul was that man child ruling with the rod of iron or with love to correct and chasten and also comfort
the Spirit in Paul / Saul had been changed ! he was given authority by Jesus Christ and His conscience bore witness to it !
I always thought God shows His wrath or love though mankind [ vessels ]
holding His treasure / Spirit ..
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:44:20 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
Hi Molly!
How does that factor into....
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is the first thing that began to bug me about the teaching that the elect are harvested first, in the first resurrection, pre-millennium.
Tares: imposters masquerading as priests?
But Jesus tells us they were really vipers and hypocrites.
70 ad the tares are gathered and burned, and the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
--Mat 3
Molly,
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are asking me. I was simply pointing out that Christ said that in the time of harvest the tares would be harvested first. I was asking you how that factors into what you said about the priest being harvested now?
This is a Passover and Pentecost firstfruits harvest--barley and wheat.
John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
--Lev 23
Sorry, but I am still not sure how that answers my question. :dontknow:
From the beginning the tares were harvested first--no more Levite priests.
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
:grin: Is it? Most likely cause I dont have scripts in front of me, see how many mistakes can be made without them? Its always ONE word out of place and a war begins :grin: THATS why I cant stand not quoting scripts... yall jumping on me and ya's know how I hate posting without them :grin:
THIS IS WHY!! :grin:
i will help sis ,
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
sis I see Paul was that man child ruling with the rod of iron or with love to correct and chasten and also comfort
the Spirit in Paul / Saul had been changed ! he was given authority by Jesus Christ and His conscience bore witness to it !
I always thought God shows His wrath or love though mankind [ vessels ]
holding His treasure / Spirit ..
The shepherd uses the rod against the wolves, not the sheep.
With the sheep, he uses the rod just to guide them. The shepherd would never beat his own sheep with a rod--for one thing, sheep are too stupid to learn that way. For another, he wouldn't hurt his own sheep.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:48:30 PMPaul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb. He was just seriously misinformed. Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
You are saying that wheat can bring forth tare fruit for a while. But then we really can not know a tree by it's fruit. Also, I don't think Paul thought of himself as having any greater heart for God than others. "What then are we better than they? No in no wise.... There is none righteous, no not one.... none that seeketh after God."
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:00:28 PM
From the beginning the tares were harvested first--no more Levite priests.
:thumbsup:
QuoteFrom the beginning the tares were harvested first--no more Levite priests.
perhaps they were unjust judges
or even respecter of persons? and always slaying sacrifieces , Jesus is that only sacrifice for all time
?
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hbr 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hbr 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hbr 7:4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hbr 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hbr 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hbr 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he [receiveth them], of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Hbr 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Hbr 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hbr 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hbr 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hbr 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hbr 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hbr 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hbr 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]:
Hbr 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hbr 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Hbr 7:23
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hbr 7:24
But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Hbr 7:26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Hbr 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hbr 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
:grin: Is it? Most likely cause I dont have scripts in front of me, see how many mistakes can be made without them? Its always ONE word out of place and a war begins :grin: THATS why I cant stand not quoting scripts... yall jumping on me and ya's know how I hate posting without them :grin:
THIS IS WHY!! :grin:
i will help sis ,
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
sis I see Paul was that man child ruling with the rod of iron or with love to correct and chasten and also comfort
the Spirit in Paul / Saul had been changed ! he was given authority by Jesus Christ and His conscience bore witness to it !
I always thought God shows His wrath or love though mankind [ vessels ]
holding His treasure / Spirit ..
theres Rosey always In the covers.... :HeartThrob:
but what Good is Breaking Clay pots , Kinda roasting em over Fire....and stuff, and whos Mouth has a SHARP sword in it...Who Wrote this stuff sis, must have been on the whacky Backy
Buy some decent china I say Sis.....
Ok, Busting Time over , I speak as a Fool.... :HeartThrob:..mes Bad :mblush:
mes had me funny five mis...
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 11:05:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:00:28 PM
From the beginning the tares were harvested first--no more Levite priests.
:thumbsup:
Kinda Like that too :HeartThrob:
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 11:05:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:48:30 PMPaul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb. He was just seriously misinformed. Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
You are saying that wheat can bring forth tare fruit for a while. But then we really can not know a tree by it's fruit. Also, I don't think Paul thought of himself as having any greater heart for God than others. "What then are we better than they? No in no wise.... There is none righteous, no not one.... none that seeketh after God."
Paul was appointed--set apart--in his mother's womb.
You cannot tell the difference between a tare and a wheat until maturity. You can't look at a man and tell what is in his heart.
But, Paul was doing what he thought was right for God, not out of an evil heart. The minute he found out that he was wrong, he repented.
The tares do what they do out of an evil heart. Jesus tells them, You will die in your sins. They will never repent.
Quote from: RoseHbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Yes the law has changed with respect to the priesthood, based no longer on a carnal law of bloodline succession, but on the basis of an endless life.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:13:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:03:15 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2008, 10:11:26 PM
Amen, Rose!! Paul was "delivered of the child" (saved in childbearing :laughing7:)
yes you are right , that has to be it!!! bearing children/offspring in the ministry to God !
Ordinances imposed UNTIL?
Christ comes the first time! for correction !!! , or this ??
And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
It reminds me of Christs words "I will come unto THEE and fight against THEM" even though its the sword of His mouth, the rod is also for correction and Paul said "Shall I come unto you with a ROD" (with the aurthority God hath given him) though it be for edification not destruction
Rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!! its IRON, ever Been Hit with an Iron Bar, Bloody hurts. :HeartThrob:
:grin: Is it? Most likely cause I dont have scripts in front of me, see how many mistakes can be made without them? Its always ONE word out of place and a war begins :grin: THATS why I cant stand not quoting scripts... yall jumping on me and ya's know how I hate posting without them :grin:
THIS IS WHY!! :grin:
i will help sis ,
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
sis I see Paul was that man child ruling with the rod of iron or with love to correct and chasten and also comfort
the Spirit in Paul / Saul had been changed ! he was given authority by Jesus Christ and His conscience bore witness to it !
I always thought God shows His wrath or love though mankind [ vessels ]
holding His treasure / Spirit ..
The shepherd uses the rod against the wolves, not the sheep.
With the sheep, he uses the rod just to guide them. The shepherd would never beat his own sheep with a rod--for one thing, sheep are too stupid to learn that way. For another, he wouldn't hurt his own sheep.
I thought he who spared his rod hated his son? :grin: So your saying Paul was adressing coming unto the wolves with the rod or love? :grin:
The rod is correction, he corrects us, that correction is a guiding force dont you think?
Discipline isnt suppose to feel good :grin:
You use the rod to guide the sheep--hold it out so the sheep will stay within a boundary you have outlined for them. You don't beat sheep with a rod...geez...
The shepherd uses the rod to beat off the wolves who would kill his sheep.
the rod and staff :thumbsup: hebrew 4292 matteh
Pronunciation
mat·teh' (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
from H51861) to stretch out, extend, spread out, pitch, turn, pervert, :mshock: incline, bend, bow
a) (Qal)
1) to stretch out, extend, stretch, offer
2) to spread out, pitch (tent)
3) to bend, turn, incline
a) to turn aside, incline, decline, bend down
b) to bend, bow
c) to hold out, extend (fig.)
b) (Niphal) to be stretched out
c) (Hiphil)
1) to stretch out
2) to spread out
3) to turn, incline, influence, bend down, hold out, extend, thrust aside, thrust away
OLD ROD
TWOT Reference
1352b
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) staff, branch, tribe
a) staff, rod, shaft
b) branch (of vine)
c) tribe
1) company led by chief with staff (originally)
GREEK ROD 4464 rhabdos
Pronunciation
rhä'b-dos (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
from the base of G4474
TDNT Reference
6:966,982
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a staff, a walking stick, a twig, rod, branch
2) a rod with which one is beaten3) a staff
a) as used on a journey, or to lean upon, or by shepherds
b) when applied to kings
1) with a rod of iron, indicates the severest, most rigorous rule
2) a royal sceptre
i KNOW Paul was trying to make them minds/ pure virgins for Christ ...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
The Child Corrected Unto a Son :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
You use the rod to guide sheep. You don't beat them with it. Like when you are putting them in a pen, you stand to the side holding the rod out to keep them from straying from the gate.
You can't understand why we are sheep, and he is the shepherd, unless you have visited a sheep farm rofl.
The shepherd would never hurt his own sheep--he lays down his life for the sheep.
4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
--Luke 15
Isaiah 40:11
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.Psalm 79:13
Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will praise you forever; from generation to generation we will recount your praise.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 11:05:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:48:30 PMPaul always had a heart for God (wheat), set apart in his mother's womb. He was just seriously misinformed. Whereas, the Pharisees who met Jesus face to face knew who he was. And, they knew what they were doing.
You are saying that wheat can bring forth tare fruit for a while. But then we really can not know a tree by it's fruit. Also, I don't think Paul thought of himself as having any greater heart for God than others. "What then are we better than they? No in no wise.... There is none righteous, no not one.... none that seeketh after God."
Paul was appointed--set apart--in his mother's womb.
You cannot tell the difference between a tare and a wheat until maturity. You can't look at a man and tell what is in his heart.
But, Paul was doing what he thought was right for God, not out of an evil heart. The minute he found out that he was wrong, he repented.
The tares do what they do out of an evil heart. Jesus tells them, You will die in your sins. They will never repent.
Paul was undergoing the body of death Molly in romans 7 at the same time he was living to God
they were both at the same time / together as we all must go through
ignorance is sin , missing the mark he repented because he KNEW it was wrong , blindness / ignorance is the same thing
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
sin Strong's H2398 - chata' חטא
Transliteration
chata'
Pronunciation
khä·tä' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
638
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness
a) (Qal)
1) to miss
2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
3) to incur guilt, incur penalty by sin, forfeit
b) (Piel)
1) to bear loss
2) to make a sin-offering
3) to purify from sin
4) to purify from uncleanness
c) (Hiphil)
1) to miss the mark
2) to induce to sin, cause to sin
3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
d) (Hithpael)
1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:17:10 PM
Quote from: RoseHbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Yes the law has changed with respect to the priesthood, based no longer on a carnal law of bloodline succession, but on the basis of an endless life.
Yes Molly that is exactly what being Spiritual is ! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:27:36 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
You use the rod to guide sheep. You don't beat them with it. Like when you are putting them in a pen, you stand to the side with the rod keeping them from straying from the gate.
You can't understand why we are sheep, and he is the shepherd, unless you have visited a sheep farm rofl.
The shepherd would never hurt his own sheep--he lays down his life for the sheep.
4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
--Luke 15
Isaiah 40:11
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Psalm 79:13
Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will praise you forever; from generation to generation we will recount your praise.
Moll's Im talking about the verse in proverbs about he who spares his ROD hateth his SON, so Im not talking about a sheperd rod to sheep but one of a father :grin:
I have goats and I never strike any of them and they are the most unruly creatures :grin:
Yes, I know--but he is our Father, and our good shepherd.
This passage has been so misinterpreted,it makes me crazy.
Goats are a little smarter than sheep. Sheep have to be the dumbest, most clueless animals in the kingdom.
You can't really teach sheep anything--you have to continually guide them. But they will recognize the shepherd's voice, and go to their own shepherd.
But the shepherd's rod is for beating off the wolves and the bears and the predators of the sheep, not the sheep. With the sheep, it is just used for guidance. Go talk to a shepherd, and ask if he ever beats his sheep lol.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:34:33 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:27:36 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
You use the rod to guide sheep. You don't beat them with it. Like when you are putting them in a pen, you stand to the side with the rod keeping them from straying from the gate.
You can't understand why we are sheep, and he is the shepherd, unless you have visited a sheep farm rofl.
The shepherd would never hurt his own sheep--he lays down his life for the sheep.
4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
--Luke 15
Isaiah 40:11
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Psalm 79:13
Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will praise you forever; from generation to generation we will recount your praise.
Moll's Im talking about the verse in proverbs about he who spares his ROD hateth his SON, so Im not talking about a sheperd rod to sheep but one of a father :grin:
I have goats and I never strike any of them and they are the most unruly creatures :grin:
Yes, I know--but he is our Father, and our good shepherd.
This passage has been so misinterpreted,it makes me crazy.
Goats are a little smarter than sheep. Sheep have to be the dumbest, most clueless animals in the kingdom.
You can't really teach sheep anything--you have to continually guide them. But they will recognize the shepherd's voice, and go to their own shepherd.
But the shepherd's rod is for beating off the wolves and the bears and the predators of the sheep, not the sheep. With the sheep, it is just used for guidance. Go talk to a shepherd, and ask if he ever beats his sheep lol.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Roseignorance is sin , missing the mark he repented because he KNEW it was wrong , blindness / ignorance is the same thing
Yes, and there's another word for sin which means open rebellion, where you know it is wrong and you do it anyway.
But, Paul, once shown he was in error, repented--he was not sinning on purpose.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:08:50 PMPaul was appointed--set apart--in his mother's womb.
I agree, but what does that prove. Paul was still at one time by nature a child of wrath.
QuoteYou cannot tell the difference between a tare and a wheat until maturity.
In the parable they told the difference when the fruit appeared.
QuoteYou can't look at a man and tell what is in his heart. But, Paul was doing what he thought was right for God, not out of an evil heart. The minute he found out that he was wrong, he repented. The tares do what they do out of an evil heart.
Mark 7:21 For from within,
out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications,
murders.
Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed,
I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore
by their fruits ye shall know them.
Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For
every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil:
for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Acts 9:1 And Saul,
yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
be zealous therefore,
and repent. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
He is so tenderhearted and kind to us. He loves us so much--he would never hurt us. If the son wishes to forgo his Father's guidance (the rod, used only for guidance, as a boundary marker), and go out and slop swill with the pigs, he won't stop him. He knows the son will be brought back to remembrance of how wonderful the Father's house is and come back to Him.
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd--
And he shall gather the lambs with his arms--
And carry them in his bosom--
And gently lead those that are with young--
And gently lead
And gently lead those that are with young--
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:46:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 11:44:07 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
be zealous therefore, and repent.
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Heed the rod and the one who appointed it, which would be to listen to his correction not beatin to a pulp, that would be taking it literally :grin:
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
From the base of
G3145μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō
(to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 11:44:07 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
be zealous therefore, and repent.
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G3326 and G3539
TDNT Reference
4:975,636
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
even Peter had to be converted turned around , before he could feed the sheep , and He was sifted like wheat by satan to the destruction of his flesh so His Spirit would be saved
see how sheep wander and go astray ?
converted Strong's G1994 - epistrephō ἐπιστρέφω
Transliteration
epistrephō
Pronunciation
e-pē-stre'-fō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G1909 and G4762
TDNT Reference
7:722,1093
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
b) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
b) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back
Ps
wheat makes bread [Bread of heaven] and tares poison mankind , but birds of the air eat them and do not die
on the wheat and tares wow this thread is all over the place , I cannot
keep up , I gotta go , my daughter wants on puter now ... :msealed:
love yas ...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
"chastening"G3809
παιδεία
paideiapahee-di'-ah
From G3811;
tutorage, that is,
education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction,
nurture.Sheesh we are talking about someone who loves us so much he has already taken our stripes for us upon himself.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. --Isa 53
It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one hijacks the thread :hijacked:
Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:59:33 PM
I'll just chuck the scriptures out the window now its becoming a word game :grin:
Its CORRECTION, DISCIPLINE, CHASTENING, REPROOF, REBUKE its the SPIRITUAL ROD of THE FATHER who LOVES US and HE CHASTENS US becuase HE doesnt HATE US :grin:
ITS GRIEVOUS for goodness sake (smacks head) :doh:
I hear you !
it hurts like the devil .............hee hee
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 12:01:41 AM
It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one hijacks the thread :hijacked:
Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?
hi jacked threads are all in one's perception.
the Spirit moves like the wind.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:59:33 PM
I'll just chuck the scriptures out the window now its becoming a word game :grin:
Its CORRECTION, DISCIPLINE, CHASTENING, REPROOF, REBUKE its the SPIRITUAL ROD of THE FATHER who LOVES US and HE CHASTENS US becuase HE doesnt HATE US :grin:
ITS GRIEVOUS for goodness sake (smacks head) :doh:
well, yes it's grievous for us whenever we finally see the error of our ways...
But that's it--we have brought it on our own head, and we grieve ourselves...
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:--Luke 15
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
YES, YES, YES
(sorry, i know post was to Kim, but yes for me)
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
I don't understand this. Can you explain?
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 12:01:41 AM
It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one hijacks the thread :hijacked:
Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?
Tony..
I really dont think people MEAN to Diversify....at Times a Thread gets Like whispers....ya Know, and Moves. More often the case, specially when one like this flows in the manner it does....
Threads would be starting one a Minute..and no doubt would probably loose their Flow, Altho What you say Is techinically correct..I just Like to say Sorry
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:12:20 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 12:01:41 AM
It is too bad these formums can't be set up so no one hijacks the thread :hijacked:
Maybe if I start a new Natural and Spiritual II thread and people try to just post back and forth with me rather than everything under the sun?
Tony..
I really dont think people MEAN to Diversify....at Times a Thread gets Like whispers....ya Know, and Moves. More often the case, specially when one like this flows in the manner it does....
Threads would be starting one a Minute..and no doubt would probably loose their Flow, Altho What you say Is techinically correct..I just Like to say Sorry
To me it's sad if this type of flow were stopped. today as i participated and read, I felt the Spirit move me several times, teared up, rejoiced, and praised HIM.
He is SO GOOD
Quote from: Zeek on January 01, 2009, 12:08:33 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
YES, YES, YES
(sorry, i know post was to Kim, but yes for me)
Thanks Zeek, :icon_flower:
at Times although Im more outspoken then Maybe may..i do get a Little shy of Posting for probably fear Upsetting many...sorta a hard place and A rock
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 12:23:56 AM
Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:
Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know? :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.
I'm not really sure what we are talking about. I've been through some terrible tribulations in my life, but I never laid them at the feet of God, although they all brought me closer to God--and If I could somehow have understood without them, they never would have happened.
But the shepherd's rod is for guidance only with regard to his sheep.
He only beats predators of the sheep with it.
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 12:10:15 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
I don't understand this. Can you explain?
Ill do My best too Molly.
How can we Understand what its Like to Be an Indian UNLESS we once walked at Least a DAY in their Moccasins...
Maybe at Times we Forget who the epistles were for .
The reason I posted what I did Is because Ive suffered Under a Degree of Bondage...more than a bit id like to add
How Can a Child Under LAW, LIKE MANY WERE, Babes In Christ who came from certain traditions ,become SONS unless Corrected from their previous Understanding....Tis how I read it, Relative to those of the time and anyone else who Since has suffered in some similar degree.
Grace TEACHES US,......To CHANGE,....The battles are The Principalities ABOVE, the oracles,( heard of the Battle of AMGGEDDON Tis a Battle of the Mind , via change of Thought moving from a Child to A SOn , the Son will continually be corrected if he Falls away....Looses That Sound mind....
Ive experienced the Suffering OF CHANGE, the LOSS of Many Brothers and sisiters of FAITH , be it a Chuch Under law..Therefore I can Relate the Loss
does this help?
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:29:59 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 12:10:15 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 01, 2009, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
G? What do with those verses then chuck them out the window then? :grin:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Those He loves He chastens and its compared to loving ones SON nothing to do with sheep in that instance and God as Father treating us as sons because He loves us and Paul says its NOT a JOYOUS or fluffy gooey feeling but a GRIEVOUS ONE :grin:
Course Not sis :icon_flower:
Tribulation is Never easy ,neither the travail of Childbirth,But I kinda relate much to the time of its Day, sis,...The ardous Task of moving from One concept to another ,for many in this age we havent experience such .its a different era ,
I once moved with MUCH suffering from a Law abiding Church to where Im at today,,the breaking of Tradition is VERY painful for the Mind....The things I gave up Under LAW to so Call Plaese HIM, which was nothing but filthy Rags , THEN come to the relisation HOW WRONG I was....To move From what Was percieved to BE RIGHT into HIM....Much Correcting AND Grevious it was,...JOYUS it wasnt....
My concept has change and change is More often Quite painful...
make sense?
I don't understand this. Can you explain?
Ill do My best too Molly.
How can we Understand what its Like to Be an Indian UNLESS we once walked at Least a DAY in their Moccasins...
Maybe at Times we Forget who the epistles were for .
The reason I posted what I did Is because Ive suffered Under a Degree of Bondage...more than a bit id like to add
How Can a Child Under LAW, LIKE MANY WERE, Babes In Christ who came from certain traditions ,become SONS unless Corrected from their previous Understanding....Tis how I read it, Relative to those of the time and anyone else who Since has suffered in some similar degree.
Grace TEACHES US,......To CHANGE,....The battles are The Principalities ABOVE, the oracles,( heard of the Battle of AMGGEDDON Tis a Battle of the Mind , via change of Thought moving from a Child to A SOn , the Son will continually be corrected if he Falls away....Looses That Sound mind....
Ive experienced the Suffering OF CHANGE, the LOSS of Many Brothers and sisiters of FAITH , be it a Chuch Under law..Therefore I can Relate the Loss
does this help?
well, I didn't have the same experience--no church for me. I tried to find a church that I could relate to as an adult, but never succeeded. Therefore, I've been mostly alone in this walk from the human standpoint.
So I'm not really sure what you are talking about--maybe I can't know.
Ideally, the child grows up and his father says to him--here is your inheritance son, enjoy! LOL
But there is that period between childhood and adulthood that we all go through--and it can take the form of rebellion, as we learn about our limits.
I don't think that's what you are talking about though..
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:54:01 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
From the base of
G3145
μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō (to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.
Strongs: "Metaph. Of God as a father chastening men as children by afflictions"
USAGE:
- Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
- Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
- Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.
- Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
- Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
- John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
~~~~~~~~~
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and
fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church.
Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them,
Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 12:23:56 AM
Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:
Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know? :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.
Big Amen.
Lamentations 3
- 1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
- 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD
- 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
- 28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
- 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
- 30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
- 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:59:53 PM
Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
The word
metanoia is "after-mind" or "change-mind." The problem with the quote from F. F. Bruce is trying to put what Judas felt into it. "... Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself..." (AV) The word for "repented himself" here is
metamelomai which is "regret" or "after-care." Judas
regretted what he'd done. What is so often taught as "repentance" is "an emotional sorrow for sin and an act of the will to turn from it."
Meta-gnoia is actually a "-mind" word from
gnosis referring to origin of consciousness. That influenced deriving our words "generate" and "genital" from it. "Repent," which usually translates
metanoia in English, comes from the Sanscrit
pu from which we get our word "pure," which is what it means. Somehow "to purify" (from sin) is still included when we see "repent;" yet, it has nothing to directly do with
metanoia. The ministry of the Forerunner John was "Baptism unto Repentance." The culmination was presenting unto Israel the New Mind in the person of the Messiah Jesus who was without sin. This new origin of our consciousness we are receiving makes us "more than conquerors" because it is not even dealing with sin. That was finished. The lamb of God was slain before the casting down of the earth. The perfect life of God the Spirit present with us and in us, adjusting us to His will and changing us into His image and likeness is bringing salvation without sin.
:cloud9: Just wanted you all to know, I'm not ignoring the conversation, but I had to leave and when I came back y'all mad posters had jumped ahead 6 pages on me, LOL. I don't think I'm going to try to catch that up in comments. Carry on..... :winkgrin: Blessings...
Quote from: bobf on January 01, 2009, 01:56:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 11:54:01 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:23:02 PM
Ok so its he who spares the rod loves his son more? :grin:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
From the base of
G3145
μασσάομαι
massaomai
mas-sah'-om-ahee
From a primary word μάσσω massō (to handle or squeeze); to chew: - gnaw.
Strongs: "Metaph. Of God as a father chastening men as children by afflictions"
USAGE:
- Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
- Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
- Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.
- Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
- Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
- John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
~~~~~~~~~
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church.
Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.
well, what do you think? That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying? I sure hope not.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 01, 2009, 02:45:28 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:59:53 PM
Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
The word metanoia is "after-mind" or "change-mind." The problem with the quote from F. F. Bruce is trying to put what Judas felt into it. "... Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself..." (AV) The word for "repented himself" here is metamelomai which is "regret" or "after-care." Judas regretted what he'd done. What is so often taught as "repentance" is "an emotional sorrow for sin and an act of the will to turn from it." Meta-gnoia is actually a "-mind" word from gnosis referring to origin of consciousness. That influenced deriving our words "generate" and "genital" from it. "Repent," which usually translates metanoia in English, comes from the Sanscrit pu from which we get our word "pure," which is what it means. Somehow "to purify" (from sin) is still included when we see "repent;" yet, it has nothing to directly do with metanoia. The ministry of the Forerunner John was "Baptism unto Repentance." The culmination was presenting unto Israel the New Mind in the person of the Messiah Jesus who was without sin. This new origin of our consciousness we are receiving makes us "more than conquerors" because it is not even dealing with sin. That was finished. The lamb of God was slain before the casting down of the earth. The perfect life of God the Spirit present with us and in us, adjusting us to His will and changing us into His image and likeness is bringing salvation without sin.
Paul says we are more than conquerors, that is, more than overcomers. Then, this is the question: Who is this Christ:
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear
the second time without sin unto salvation.He appeared the first time without sin. Then took away our sin on the cross.
So the second appearance without sin unto salvation--is that the sons of God?
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 03:25:11 AMwell, what do you think? That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying? I sure hope not.
I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no. Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God. Do I like that? Not really.
Thanks ReFormer for breaking that down for me about repent
Wow Kim , when was you doing this ? :mshock:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 01, 2009, 05:00:06 AM
Thanks ReFormer for breaking that down for me about repent
Wow Kim , when was you doing this ? :mshock:
:thumbsup:
Like two years ago ya nut :grin: I just copy pasted this from a portion of my studies LOL I didnt type it by hand while I was talking wit cha :grin:
Hugs :HeartThrob:
ya fooled me :mblush: LOL they are excellent :cloud9:
point taken sis ..
Barley field
...the fields... are white already to harvest.
http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1533651
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 04:54:04 AM
Quote from: bobf on January 01, 2009, 04:08:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 03:25:11 AMwell, what do you think? That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying? I sure hope not.
I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no. Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God. Do I like that? Not really.
Heres just a few I agree with you
2Titus 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus **shall suffer persecution**.
Was Paul not saying the same thing as the Lord?
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have **persecuted me**, they will also **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Is the Lord not telling the truth?
Mat 5:10 ~Blessed~ are they which **are persecuted** for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed (or happy) in the above (and below) verse spoken by Peter and the Lord
1Peter 3:14 But and **IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
Mat 5:11-12 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall **revile you**, and **persecute you**, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ~Rejoice~, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so **persecuted they** the prophets which were before you.
Jesus and James agreeing on the persecution of the prophets who are examples unto us
James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of **suffering affliction**, and of patience.
What "worketh" patience? Something beneficial.... "tribulation'
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also **TO SUFFER** for his sake;
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he **MUST SUFFER** for my name's sake.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh **persecuted him** that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have **persecuted us**; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake **we are killed** all the day long; we are accounted as **sheep for the slaughter**. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: **being reviled**, we bless; **being persecuted**, we **suffer it**:
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, **The reproaches** of them that reproached thee fell on me.
1Peter 4:14 If ye be **reproached** for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the ***reproach** of men, neither be ye afraid of **their revilings**.
Luke 6:22 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall **reproach** you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Again....
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. IF they have **persecuted me**, they will ALSO **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
How is one OFFENDED?
Mark 4:17 And have **NO ROOT** in themselves, and so endure but for a time: AFTERWARD, **WHEN AFFLICTION** OR **PERSECUTION** ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are OFFENDED.
1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by **THESE AFFLICTIONS**: for yourselves know that WE are **APPOINTED** thereunto.
2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of **THE AFFLICTIONS** of the gospel according to the power of God;
Phil 3:10 That I may **KNOW HIM**, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of **HIS SUFFERING**, being made conformable unto his death;
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, **in bringing many sons unto glory**, to make the captain of their salvation perfect **through sufferings**.
Heb 5:9 being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
2Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your **persecutions** and **tribulations** that ye endure
Many are the afflictions of the righteous
1Thes 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, WE TOLD YOU before that we should **SUFFER PERSECUTION**; even as it came to pass, and **ye know**.
Acts 14:22 we must through **much tribulation** enter into the kingdom of God.
1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, **AFTER THAT** YE HAVE SUFFERED **A WHILE**, **MAKE YOU PERFECT**, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Isaiah 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, (((Behold)) I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; THOU SHALT NO MORE DRINK IT AGAIN
Isaiah 51:23 But I will put it INTO THE HAND **OF THEM that **AFFLICT THEE**; which have said to THY SOUL, Bow down, that we may go over: and **THOU** HAST LAID THY BODY AS THE GROUND, and as the street, **TO THEM** that went over.
2Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation **TO THEM** that **TROUBLE YOU**;
Where does He chose one in?
Isaiah 48:10 (((Behold)) I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of **AFFLICTION**.
Its shown in our trials...
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of **cruel mockings** and **scourgings**, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment
1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the **fiery trial** which is to try you, ~as though~ some strange thing happened unto you:
Partakers in Christ's sufferings, The "fellowship of His suffering".
1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Peter 1:7 That **the trial** of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
How did Peter know?
Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, ((behold)) Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt **SUFFER**: (( behold )) the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, ~knowing that~ **THE SAME AFFLICTIONS** are accomplished IN your brethren that are in the world.
2Cr 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Cr 1:5 For as **the sufferings** of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the **same sufferings** which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Cr 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of **the sufferings**, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Cr 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all **our tribulation**.
2Titus 2:3 Thou therefore **endure hardness**, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
Remember Job...
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which **endure**. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Psalm 34:19 MANY are **the afflictions** of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
2Titus 3:1 **Persecutions**, **afflictions**, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Titus 4:5 But watch thou in all things, **endure afflictions**, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Going where one wants to go?
John 21:19 When thou wast ~young~, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall ~gird thee~, and carry thee whither **thou wouldest not**.
Psalm 18:32 It is ~God that girdeth me~ with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
As Christ was made perfect, learning obedience through what He suffered so do we
Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that ~is perfect~ shall be as his master.
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Titus 4:10 For therefore we both labour and **suffer reproach**, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, ~specially~ of those that believe.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet **suffer persecution**? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only **LEST** they should **suffer persecution** for the cross of Christ.
persecution, by whom??
those stuck in the old covenant system. Those "walking dead".
but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
---Psa 23
The anointing is for kings and priests.
But he is both king and priest.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
AMEN Molly
Psa 6:7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
Psa 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.
Psa 6:9 The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.
Psa 6:10 Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.
Psa 7:10 My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psa 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.
Psa 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
Psa 7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Psa 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psa 10:1 Why standest thou afar off, O LORD? why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble?
Psa 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
Psa 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
Psa 10:5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
Psa 10:6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
Psa 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
Psa 10:8 He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.
Psa 10:9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.
Psa 10:10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.
Psa 10:11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
Psa 10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
Psa 10:13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.
Psa 10:14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.
Psa 10:15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man: seek out his wickedness till thou find none.
Psa 10:16 The LORD is King forever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
Psa 10:17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
Psa 10:18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.
last one for now
Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psa 13:4 Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.
Psa 13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 13:6 I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Hi Kim, I have no doubt of WHO the persecution comes from. What I personally believe, is that the persecution and trials and tribulation was at the hands of those who were "Ishmaels", old covenant hardened law zealots. I personally believe that it served a purpose, to usher in the NEW. I lean more and more toward a fulfilled view (first century fulfillment)
Today, I believe we mistaken daily trials and hardship (which both ungoldy and godly suffer) and label it the same as "tribulations" to enter the kingdom.
jmo,
Z
Quote from: Zeek on January 01, 2009, 06:01:52 AM
Hi Kim, I have no doubt of WHO the persecution comes from. What I personally believe, is that the persecution and trials and tribulation was at the hands of those who were "Ishmaels", old covenant hardened law zealots. I personally believe that it served a purpose, to usher in the NEW. I lean more and more toward a fulfilled view (first century fulfillment)
Today, I believe we mistaken daily trials and hardship (which both ungoldy and godly suffer) and label it the same as "tribulations" to enter the kingdom.
jmo,
Z
Yes, we have a sure foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone. We can stand on their shoulders.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. --Rev 21
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 05:45:22 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
ALL of this over HIS WORDS :sigh:
I think it's more a matter of how one interprets those words. That's why I was asking you what experiences you were equating them with.
If people use such words to justify beating children, for instance, I think they are sorely mistaken. The shepherd guides his sheep with the rod, he doesn't beat them.
Will we go through a type of tribulation in our lives? sure. Everyone has some 'cross' to bear. And, He has His ways of getting our attention. But, it in no way needs to compare with what He went through. Or what Paul went through. It might, but it doesn't have to. Nor do I believe if we are good, we will avoid it necessarily. Or that it is brought on by God himself. This is an evil place we are living in--but I will fear no evil, because he is with me...
But the popular culture is promoting a 3 year tribulation, for instance--and I think it is wrong to expect that because it will just give the bad guys license to do it and have all the Christians think that it is expected. And, there is no indication that it is expected at all. I would rather expect this from Him--
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.Not that it's here or there, but I had a vision once where I was told to wear his stripes, putting them on like a coat--he has born the iniquity for us all, he has already done all the heavy lifting..
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 06:41:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 06:24:42 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 05:45:22 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
ALL of this over HIS WORDS :sigh:
I think it's more a matter of how one interprets those words. That's why I was asking you what experiences you were equating them with.
If people use such words to justify beating children, for instance, I think they are sorely mistaken. The shepherd guides his sheep with the rod, he doesn't beat them.
Will we go through a type of tribulation in our lives? sure. Everyone has some 'cross' to bear. And, He has His ways of getting our attention. But, it in no way needs to compare with what He went through. Or what Paul went through. It might, but it doesn't have to. Nor do I believe if we are good, we will avoid it necessarily. Or that it is brought on by God himself. This is an evil place we are living in--but I will fear no evil, because he is with me...
But the popular culture is promoting a 3 year tribulation, for instance--and I think it is wrong to expect that because it will just give the bad guys license to do it and have all the Christians think that it is expected. And, there is no indication that it is expected at all. I would rather expect this from Him--
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Not that it's here or there, but I had a vision once where I was told to wear his stripes, putting them on like a coat--he has born the iniquity for us all, he has already done all the heavy lifting..
So you refuted verses based on what my experience might be with them or what my interpretation of them "could possiibly be"? :grin:
No I dont think its a STICK for the last time :grin: Do you see God with a STICK beating people? :grin:
Yes I realize by His stripes we are healed but I also realize that He still CHASTENS US one does not negate the other, how do you figure on that? This is what I cant understand both are equally true. Theres judgment
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Has He stopped Judging us, or chastening us? Is He now somehow changed?
I dont know what your going on about concerning 3 years I look at the ongoing discipline of the Father for our benefit not just for 3 years, I dont know what you mean by that (?)
I just posted verses so I cant figure out why all the dancing around them, its not like I said anything more then what was written, what Paul said and what Jesus confirmed. Simply put the Lord chastens who He LOVES and either He dont love His Sons To day as He did yesterday or He does.
It's a matter of how people interpret those words and use them to justify doing all sorts of bad things to each other.
And, it's a matter of the heart of the Father.
What is judgment to us? We can see it with Peter, sifted by satan.
What horrible thing did Jesus do to him? What 'rod'? What 'chastening'?
Jesus told Peter what was going to happen, told him he was praying for him, and after it happened, just looked at him.
Peter judges himself within the context of his love for Christ.
I'm just saying...
He is so good to us.
who chastens like the Lord s Word?
Mic 7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod the flock of thine heritage ...
Prov 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Mic 6:9 hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.
Prov 15:21 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 12:23:56 AM
Exactly G I with you but you can see it in scripture, what I cannot stand is pretending its not in there as if Gods chastening doesnt exist cause if were without it we are bastards and not sons :grin: I didnt just pull it out of my rear, but from the OT but the NT which further defines the process and how people might feel through it, its not just some stick in someones hand for goodness sake :grin:
Besides maybe someone going through it might be comforted, to somehow be able to reccognize it and by that reccognition not despise it (the Chastening of the Lord) maybe because they have been told God would never do such a thing I dont know? :grin: To me it blessed me to know His involvement and also to know its because He loves us not because he hates us or has left us in the dust. So what someone might think is a terrible thing for God to be doing I see as comforting thing to know He does this sorta thing because He loves us.
Amen
Yes Kim, Correction at First is never seems comforting, ( some 10 yrs I was out there, but never felt alone ) but through the Process Eventually comes an Understanding which is, and Like ya mentioned ,TO know HE leads us through it IS comfort indeed.
And No sis ,Definately NOT a Stick , Punishment means to Correct that which is WRONG,we parents do it daily, out of love for off spring . Spare the ROD and spoil the child.... first natural , then the spiritual , tis a Learning process which continues
Pro 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on December 31, 2008, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 31, 2008, 11:44:07 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 11:40:24 PM
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 13:9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I'll stay with what he says :grin:
be zealous therefore, and repent.
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Strong's G3340 - metanoeō μετανοέω
Transliteration
metanoeō
Pronunciation
me-tä-no-e'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G3326 and G3539
TDNT Reference
4:975,636
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
even Peter had to be converted turned around , before he could feed the sheep , and He was sifted like wheat by satan to the destruction of his flesh so His Spirit would be saved
see how sheep wander and go astray ?
converted Strong's G1994 - epistrephō ἐπιστρέφω
Transliteration
epistrephō
Pronunciation
e-pē-stre'-fō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G1909 and G4762
TDNT Reference
7:722,1093
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
b) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
b) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back
Ps
wheat makes bread [Bread of heaven] and tares poison mankind , but birds of the air eat them and do not die
on the wheat and tares wow this thread is all over the place , I cannot
keep up , I gotta go , my daughter wants on puter now ... :msealed:
love yas ...
he he Rosey.I woke this morning and found I was 5 pages back on this thread....
Yes to Change ones MIND, to TURN around AMEN :icon_flower:
spare the rod and spoil the child?
(Pro 10:13) In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
(Pro 13:24) He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
(Pro 14:3) In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.
(Pro 22:8) He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
(Pro 22:15) Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
(Pro 23:13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(Pro 23:14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from the unseen.
(Pro 26:3) A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
(Pro 29:15) The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Under the law if a child were to get mouthy with their parents or stay out and carouse around the parents were to take the child to the priest and the child was to be stoned to death.
So it makes perfect sense that it would be better for the child to be corrected with a rod, a literal rod, than to be stoned to death.
So, since this thread is about Natural and Spiritual, figurative and literal, I take it that the rod here is really meant to be a literal rod.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 04:54:04 AM
Quote from: bobf on January 01, 2009, 04:08:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2009, 03:25:11 AMwell, what do you think? That we are all required to go through some horrible initiation into the kingdom, through literal scourging and crucifying? I sure hope not.
I don't know anyone who has been literally crucified or scourged, so no. Look up suffer, suffering, suffered, etc. in the NT and you will see it is required to enter the kingdom of God. Do I like that? Not really.
Heres just a few I agree with you
2Titus 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus **shall suffer persecution**.
Was Paul not saying the same thing as the Lord?
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have **persecuted me**, they will also **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Is the Lord not telling the truth?
Mat 5:10 ~Blessed~ are they which **are persecuted** for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed (or happy) in the above (and below) verse spoken by Peter and the Lord
1Peter 3:14 But and **IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
Mat 5:11-12 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall **revile you**, and **persecute you**, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ~Rejoice~, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so **persecuted they** the prophets which were before you.
Jesus and James agreeing on the persecution of the prophets who are examples unto us
James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of **suffering affliction**, and of patience.
What "worketh" patience? Something beneficial.... "tribulation'
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also **TO SUFFER** for his sake;
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he **MUST SUFFER** for my name's sake.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh **persecuted him** that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1Thes 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have **persecuted us**; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake **we are killed** all the day long; we are accounted as **sheep for the slaughter**. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: **being reviled**, we bless; **being persecuted**, we **suffer it**:
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, **The reproaches** of them that reproached thee fell on me.
1Peter 4:14 If ye be **reproached** for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the ***reproach** of men, neither be ye afraid of **their revilings**.
Luke 6:22 ~Blessed~ are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall **reproach** you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Again....
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. IF they have **persecuted me**, they will ALSO **persecute you**; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
How is one OFFENDED?
Mark 4:17 And have **NO ROOT** in themselves, and so endure but for a time: AFTERWARD, **WHEN AFFLICTION** OR **PERSECUTION** ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are OFFENDED.
1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by **THESE AFFLICTIONS**: for yourselves know that WE are **APPOINTED** thereunto.
2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of **THE AFFLICTIONS** of the gospel according to the power of God;
Phil 3:10 That I may **KNOW HIM**, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of **HIS SUFFERING**, being made conformable unto his death;
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, **in bringing many sons unto glory**, to make the captain of their salvation perfect **through sufferings**.
Heb 5:9 being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
2Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your **persecutions** and **tribulations** that ye endure
Many are the afflictions of the righteous
1Thes 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, WE TOLD YOU before that we should **SUFFER PERSECUTION**; even as it came to pass, and **ye know**.
Acts 14:22 we must through **much tribulation** enter into the kingdom of God.
1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, **AFTER THAT** YE HAVE SUFFERED **A WHILE**, **MAKE YOU PERFECT**, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Isaiah 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, (((Behold)) I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; THOU SHALT NO MORE DRINK IT AGAIN
Isaiah 51:23 But I will put it INTO THE HAND **OF THEM that **AFFLICT THEE**; which have said to THY SOUL, Bow down, that we may go over: and **THOU** HAST LAID THY BODY AS THE GROUND, and as the street, **TO THEM** that went over.
2Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation **TO THEM** that **TROUBLE YOU**;
Where does He chose one in?
Isaiah 48:10 (((Behold)) I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of **AFFLICTION**.
Its shown in our trials...
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of **cruel mockings** and **scourgings**, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment
1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the **fiery trial** which is to try you, ~as though~ some strange thing happened unto you:
Partakers in Christ's sufferings, The "fellowship of His suffering".
1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Peter 1:7 That **the trial** of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
How did Peter know?
Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, ((behold)) Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt **SUFFER**: (( behold )) the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, ~knowing that~ **THE SAME AFFLICTIONS** are accomplished IN your brethren that are in the world.
2Cr 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Cr 1:5 For as **the sufferings** of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the **same sufferings** which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Cr 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of **the sufferings**, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Cr 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all **our tribulation**.
2Titus 2:3 Thou therefore **endure hardness**, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
Remember Job...
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which **endure**. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Psalm 34:19 MANY are **the afflictions** of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
2Titus 3:1 **Persecutions**, **afflictions**, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Titus 4:5 But watch thou in all things, **endure afflictions**, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Going where one wants to go?
John 21:19 When thou wast ~young~, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall ~gird thee~, and carry thee whither **thou wouldest not**.
Psalm 18:32 It is ~God that girdeth me~ with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
As Christ was made perfect, learning obedience through what He suffered so do we
Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that ~is perfect~ shall be as his master.
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Titus 4:10 For therefore we both labour and **suffer reproach**, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, ~specially~ of those that believe.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet **suffer persecution**? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only **LEST** they should **suffer persecution** for the cross of Christ.
:icon_flower:
Just a Few, :icon_flower: AMEN :icon_flower:
The carnal Minded will always persecute the Spiritual Man , and suffer we Must
1Peter 3:14 But and
**IF YE SUFFER** for righteousness' sake, ~happy~ are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Peter 4:13
But rejoice,
inasmuch as ye are partakers of **Christ's sufferings**; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 08:48:57 PM
Tony,
But see your interpretation of Christ's explanation was not completely literal either.
You intepreted "world" literally as this world, but you did not interpret "children" literally. A follower of the serpent seed doctrine would be telling you to quit interpreting "children" figuratively. "Believe the scriptures Tony! They are LITERALLY the offspring of Satan!!"
No, dear friend, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. They are not literally the offspring of Satan.
The word behind "world" is "Kosmos" and can be "system" or "adornment". It need not literally be the whole world or globe with oceans and north and south pole with Santa's village.
QuoteOk, so:
- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan.
- Field means world which means world.
- Sowing means planting or placing.
But then your interpretation does not agree with certain facts:
1. Satan does not take people who are already wicked (tare seeds) and put then in this world to mature.
2. Jesus does not take people who are already good (wheat seeds) and put them in this world to mature.
3. Wicked people do not end up all being wicked people, destined to be burned at the end of the age.
For example, Paul was at one time doing the works of Satan. He persecuted and sought to kill Christ's church. So Paul was a tare planted in this world by Satan. Therefore, according to your interpretation, Paul should have been allowed to mature as a tare and then burned at the end of the age.
Paul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."
Before Paul even believed he was already set for life eonian:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe,
whoever were set for life eonian."
It doesn't say that if they believe they would be set for life eonian.
So Paul was a wheat, a son of the kingdom, even before doing anything good or bad that God's grace may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts but of Him Who is calling.
QuoteUnder the law if a child were to get mouthy with their parents or stay out and carouse around the parents were to take the child to the priest and the child was to be stoned to death.
So it makes perfect sense that it would be better for the child to be corrected with a rod, a literal rod, than to be stoned to death.
So, since this thread is about Natural and Spiritual, figurative and literal, I take it that the rod here is really meant to be a literal rod.
HI Tony.
Altho we No longer live in the shadow ,The Rod we were discussing was a Spiritual One,..
Do you really believe these Rods are literal?... if ya Beat a Child senseless ,it would produce Righteousness, Wisdom, Understanding, Tis speaking about the tongue, THE MOUTH AND THE LIPS...., all connected to whats In the HEART and Mind...
The correction of the Rod is far Better than DEATH, the reason the child got stoned was to show what would lead to
DEATH if The
Child after Law wasnt corrected By THE ROD..
Dont you see types, shadows, similitudes, similies etc.... :dontknow:
These are\were the Shadows\Types of the Things to Come ....
(Pro 10:13) In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a
rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
(Pro 13:24) He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
(Pro 14:3) In the
mouth of the foolish is a
rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.
(Pro 22:8) He that
soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the
rod of his
anger shall fail.
Foolishness IS tied, that which Bound NEEDS to be released bro....Tis all speaking after the spirtual man moving from a Child under Law to a SON of Faith..until you see this bro..
(Pro 22:15) Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
(Pro 23:13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(Pro 23:14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from the unseen.
(Pro 26:3) A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
(Pro 29:15) The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
So yes, the Rod In the shadow was Literal, so was the stoning......
But beating My child sensless with a Literal stick ,Sure aint going to MAKE HIM Righteous EVEN it the Literal
:icon_flower:
QuotePaul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."
No Tony surely Not according to Paul, what He did was due to Lack of Knowledge...out of Ignorance
Innocent He wasnt.
One who is Innocent is One with out Guilt\clean.
If he was Innocent there would be no need of forgiveness nor Mercy,
Paul was shown Mercy because of His Ignorance not because of His innocence, He was Blinded to Him who IS THE TRUTH, where PRIOR he Lived after the Form Rom 2: 19-20.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 01, 2009, 02:48:14 AM
:cloud9: Just wanted you all to know, I'm not ignoring the conversation, but I had to leave and when I came back y'all mad posters had jumped ahead 6 pages on me, LOL. I don't think I'm going to try to catch that up in comments. Carry on..... :winkgrin: Blessings...
well Hurry up then :Sparkletooth: :icon_flower:
QuoteI still see those born after the flesh persecuting those born of the Spirit despite the times we live in because both would exist throughout all generations.
Amen Kimmy
I see The Rod paul came with were for those who again were falling away , back stepping to the Old system ,A firm WORD of Correction is the Sence...FOOLISH Galatians
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The Rod of Correction , for those WHO would
Be SONS and Heirs ,not Slaves....
But irrespective we suffer, for the carnal man will indeed Persecute those after the spirit, Those Yesterday , today and Tomorrow. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 02:42:06 PMNo, dear friend, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. They are not literally the offspring of Satan.
Tony, I didn't say that Satan impregnated their mothers. I said that's what someone who believes the serpent-seed doctrine (i.e. who read "children" literally) would say to you. My point is that you do not take "children" literally.
QuotePaul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."
Ignorantly does not mean innocently.
QuoteBefore Paul even believed he was already set for life eonian:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
It doesn't say that if they believe they would be set for life eonian.
So Paul was a wheat, a son of the kingdom, even before doing anything good or bad that God's grace may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts but of Him Who is calling.
But now you've changed your definition of wheat & tares to elect and non-elect. Before you said "The sons of the wicked one make snares and do lawlessness" and Paul was doing lawlessness by killing Christians. Your first definition was correct. Jesus identified the sons of God and sons of Satan by their deeds.
- John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
Jesus talks about good trees bringing forth good fruit and corrupt trees bringing forth corrupt fruit. Each tree is identified by it's fruit. Paul admits here to having been a corrupt tree, having the same nature and walking according to the same spirit as any tare.
- Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So what you're telling me is that the wheat & tares are not identified by their fruit, but by whether God has elected them, which no one can know who that is. The wheat and tares in the parable were identified by their fruit when the fruit appeared.
So thast what ya been doing sis :icon_flower: ....Amen, Thanks for HIS WORDS.
And really emphasizes one of my responses to Tony , Thanks sis :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 01, 2009, 05:45:39 PMLam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
It's all over the bible. Here is one I like because it as the shortest synopsis I know of that shows what God is doing regarding sowing & reaping and that God's judgments are not torture, nor everlasting, so it shows UR.
- Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted.
ETers often quote this first part of this passage "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence" from Hebrews thinking it refutes UR without realizing what Deut says.
Happy New Year!
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
--Isa 53
Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
...who shall declare his generation?
--Isa 53
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
--Psa 22
30 In the future, everyone
will worship
and learn
about you, our Lord.
31 People not yet born
will be told,
"The Lord has saved us!"
--Psa 22
QuoteSo dont ever think Im ignoring ya I might not have the window up to see anything... Sorry I never thought of that, I should be a "hidden" person huh? lol
He He
Big Brothers Watching ya,,he ha :icon_flower:
How does he circumcise the heart? Does he drive a knife through a man's heart? Does he impale a man on a rod of iron?
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
--Acts 2
"pricked"[in their heart]
G2660
κατανύσσω
katanussō
kat-an-oos'-so
From G2596 and G3572; to pierce thoroughly, that is, (figuratively) to agitate violently ("sting to the quick"): - prick.
Our journey begins with faith, gradually changing us, as we hear his voice – until, we are in agreement with His Spirit:
"Tempered by the Spirit of fire and Grace!"
"My Son, despise not the chastening (pruning, correction, refining) of the Lord, nor faint when you are admonished (gently or sharply) of Him: for who the Lord loves He (not demons) chastens, and afflicts (disciplines) every son who He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as sons; for what son is he who the Father chastens not?"
"But if you be without chastisement, of whom all are partakers, then, are you bastards (of questionable origins) and not sons?" (Hebrews 12:5-8).
Despite the truth, many continue to trample over others with their orthodox demonology that permeates all aspects of righteousness with a black cloud, and forms the language that becomes a prevailing attitude.
Many covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when their heart/mind corrupts the purity, or perfection of; everything becomes defiled.
God's Word is "sharper than any two-edged sword" piercing through the darkest places of our lives; all the way down to the bone of our thoughts, intentions, and motives of the heart.
"True gold fears not the fire, as the oil fires the furnace!"
peacemaker
Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
Is that advice literal? Yes, I think it is.
1 Listen, my sons, to a father's instruction;
pay attention and gain understanding.
2 I give you sound learning,
so do not forsake my teaching.
3 When I was a boy in my father's house,
still tender, and an only child of my mother,
4 he taught me and said,
"Lay hold of my words with all your heart;
keep my commands and you will live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or swerve from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will set a garland of grace on your head
and present you with a crown of splendor."
10 Listen, my son, accept what I say,
and the years of your life will be many.
11 I guide you in the way of wisdom
and lead you along straight paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be hampered;
when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go;
guard it well, for it is your life.
14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked
or walk in the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it, do not travel on it;
turn from it and go on your way.
16 For they cannot sleep till they do evil;
they are robbed of slumber till they make someone fall.
17 They eat the bread of wickedness
and drink the wine of violence.
18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn,
shining ever brighter till the full light of day.
19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know what makes them stumble.
20 My son, pay attention to what I say;
listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them
and health to a man's whole body.
23 Above all else, guard your heart,
for it is the wellspring of life.
24 Put away perversity from your mouth;
keep corrupt talk far from your lips.
25 Let your eyes look straight ahead,
fix your gaze directly before you.
26 Make level paths for your feet
and take only ways that are firm.
27 Do not swerve to the right or the left;
keep your foot from evil.
--Prov 4
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
You can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity.
Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Tony's inquisition!!!!
Dear Molly, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to banish you to God's eternal torment of Joy and Peace for that statement.
They knew the darnel or tares were seeded with the wheat at the time of their planting and The lord said to let them grow together until they mature.
They knew they were darnel of tares before they matured. Right?
Now be banished to God's joy!
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
6And he made a porch of pillars; the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth thereof thirty cubits: and the porch was before them: and the other pillars and the thick beam were before them.
7Then he made a porch for the throne where he might judge, even the porch of judgment: and it was covered with cedar from one side of the floor to the other.
8And his house where he dwelt had another court within the porch, which was of the like work. Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife, like unto this porch.
--1 Kings 7
So many porches.
The king has a porch for greeting people in front of his house, a porch for judgment, even a porch for his wife.
Why so many porches?
The porch defines the outer court of the temple. It is here that Jesus always met with the Pharisees. We never see him go inside.
23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
--John 10
He sits on the steps of the temple teaching them at twelve, and teaches there again as a man.
But, the day he ventures inside, he can hardly bear it--our Lord who walked among sinners and the unclean daily, was disgusted at what was going on inside the temple.
13 And said unto them, my house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
--Mat 21
Was it necessary to sacrifice a female lamb? Of course, if you could not pay the price; a pair of turtle doves were cheaper. Then again, a certain weight of fine flour; a bloodless offering was least expensive. (Leviticus 5).
"Faith is trusting in the parachute, not in a mindless act."
And, let us not forget these words: "Father forgive them, for they know not want they do."
peacemaker
13 And said unto them, my house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
--Mat 21
What is a den?
"den" [of thieves]
G4693
σπήλαιον
spēlaion
spay'-lah-yon
Neuter of a presumed derivation of σπέος speos (a grotto); a cavern; by implication a hiding place or resort: - cave, den.
It's a cave where those who would steal from the children of the kingdom --hide out.
What are they stealing?
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
--Mat 23
They steal peace, love, joy, happiness,fellowship, ---every good thing of God.
But, more than that---they steal the very kingdom itself.
..My house shall be called the house of prayer.
"house"
G3624
οἶκος
oikos
oy'-kos
Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literally or figuratively); by implication a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively): - home, house (-hold), temple.
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
Stop it, you're killing me ... :LH:
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on January 02, 2009, 03:54:13 AM
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
Stop it, you're killing me ... :LH:
peacemaker
You can laugh, but I've been through the Inquisition and I've found it to be fair and equitable.
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 04:14:15 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on January 02, 2009, 03:54:13 AM
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
Stop it, you're killing me ... :LH:
peacemaker
You can laugh, but I've been through the Inquisition and I've found it to be fair and equitable.
My sense of humor was derived from another thread, not this one. My apologies if you are offended.
As for Inquisitions, in and of themselves, I've had my fair share, and stopped answering questions in 2003 - after 18,000 responses. Leaving me with this conclusion:
"Resistance often leads to persecution; and the secular authorities carried out the execution."Thus, now, I mostly make a commentary or a personal quote ...again, forgive me.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on January 02, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 04:14:15 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on January 02, 2009, 03:54:13 AM
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
Stop it, you're killing me ... :LH:
peacemaker
You can laugh, but I've been through the Inquisition and I've found it to be fair and equitable.
My sense of humor was derived from another thread, not this one. My apologies if you are offended.
As for Inquisitions, in and of themselves, I've had my fair share, and stopped answering questions in 2003 - after 18,000 responses. Leaving me with this conclusion:
"Resistance often leads to persecution; and the secular authorities carried out the execution."
Thus, now, I mostly make a commentary or a personal quote ...again, forgive me.
peacemaker
Oh, not to worry. I don't get offended. In fact, if I make it out alive, I'm always very happy. :icon_joker:
As for resistence, I'm a big fan of it.
You do realize that this "The Parable of the Tares" is often used by advocates of ceaseless torture for ever as proving that doctrine? If the tares are wicked people who are only burnt up then what? Annihilationism?
If the seeds and those springing up are in the world that is in you, which in a way it has to be, then there is not so much trouble in defense of the ultimate salvation of all. The outer world in which is our bodies is as if it doesn't exist unless it is inside of us. This is more than merely what is perceived by our senses. The tree registers on the back of my eyeball upside down. It is only perceived as a tree if my sould interprets it. If I was a "ferral" child, never learned to talk or understand what I see, how much of a "tree" would it be to me. I am dependant on others raising me in the human community for me to talk or even have a higher functioning rational thought. The "eon" is said to be put in my heart by God (in Ecclesiastes) and "the end of the eon" can be understood as the something that happens to me when I die. Yet, faithful to what Jesus said, it can't be limited to that.
I can't find reason to limit it to the end of the Mosaic Church and its being superceded by the Church of Jesus as is the full preterist interpretation, however valid that is in understanding Matthew 24.
And what is it He calls "my barn?"
There are people: "a 'man' which sowed," then certain "'men' slept," ("his 'enemy'"--?) "'servants' of the householder," "reapers." Then there is seed, both "ideal" or good grain and bad weeds or darnel, "false" wheat. Why is there such a difference between men and seed? How is it meant when Jesus says these are "sons of the kingdom" and "sons of the wicked." That they are what makes up our conciousness or other people? It seems in this context that those gathered and tied into bundles first are those who accept a message quickening them to a false identity or an identity short of coming out of Adam; like, "Who are you and what do you do?" is not answered according to the purpose of God. People identifying as "gay" would be an example. But what of someone identifying as Roman Catholic?" Is it a matter of degrees?
This is about the most difficult parable to me and it is said immediately following the key to all the parables, "The Sower." At least it's not in the other gospels. It's the only thing in the Bible left that I'm aware of for which I have no clear Universal Reconciliation apology.
Certainly I'm warned not to be wicked or a snare, one causing others to stumble.
hmmm, read something recently that indicated the wheat are/were never tares, but wheat with chaff that has to be removed. I think I like that explanation. Let's see, after seeing that, I remember that barley is easiest to get to the grain, the wheat has to be threshed to get to the good stuff, then you have the grapes which have to be crushed to get the wine.
Just something to think about.
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 12:41:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
You can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity.
Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Tony's inquisition!!!!
Dear Molly, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to banish you to God's eternal torment of Joy and Peace for that statement.
They knew the darnel or tares were seeded with the wheat at the time of their planting and The lord said to let them grow together until they mature.
They knew they were darnel of tares before they matured. Right?
Now be banished to God's joy!
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
So Paul, a Pharisee , who epitimised the Jew or Those WHO served the Ministration Of Death , was a Tare , But at Maturity, come the HARVEST ,Always destined to be wheat.
Or ,He once was Dead \ alseep \Blind, in Darkness to Christ as a Tare The Old man which Dies , Now passing through The veil Via Belief\Faith having the Soul( HEART MIND) burnt , that is, The Enmity of the carnal(ed) Mind being DEATH , RE NEWED as a Fulfilment of the New Covenant , "I will Place my laws in their Heart and Mind ", The shaken of the Heavens and earth which signify the Removal of that which was OLD,Being replaced the NEW, For GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE...NOW wheat or walking in the LIGHT of the DAY,AWAKE and No longer asleep in the DUST
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 02, 2009, 06:51:44 AM
hmmm, read something recently that indicated the wheat are/were never tares, but wheat with chaff that has to be removed. I think I like that explanation. Let's see, after seeing that, I remember that barley is easiest to get to the grain, the wheat has to be threshed to get to the good stuff, then you have the grapes which have to be crushed to get the wine.
Just something to think about.
That is a great point Scarlet Wren !
thanks
seesm Saul did die , them old ways and heart tare/ no use
and Paul was named and made of God wheat /good use
that is also a thought
. :bigGrin:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 02, 2009, 06:40:52 AM
You do realize that this "The Parable of the Tares" is often used by advocates of ceaseless torture for ever as proving that doctrine? If the tares are wicked people who are only burnt up then what? Annihilationism?
If the seeds and those springing up are in the world that is in you, which in a way it has to be, then there is not so much trouble in defense of the ultimate salvation of all. The outer world in which is our bodies is as if it doesn't exist unless it is inside of us. This is more than merely what is perceived by our senses. The tree registers on the back of my eyeball upside down. It is only perceived as a tree if my sould interprets it. If I was a "ferral" child, never learned to talk or understand what I see, how much of a "tree" would it be to me. I am dependant on others raising me in the human community for me to talk or even have a higher functioning rational thought. The "eon" is said to be put in my heart by God (in Ecclesiastes) and "the end of the eon" can be understood as the something that happens to me when I die. Yet, faithful to what Jesus said, it can't be limited to that.
I can't find reason to limit it to the end of the Mosaic Church and its being superceded by the Church of Jesus as is the full preterist interpretation, however valid that is in understanding Matthew 24.
And what is it He calls "my barn?"
There are people: "a 'man' which sowed," then certain "'men' slept," ("his 'enemy'"--?) "'servants' of the householder," "reapers." Then there is seed, both "ideal" or good grain and bad weeds or darnel, "false" wheat. Why is there such a difference between men and seed? How is it meant when Jesus says these are "sons of the kingdom" and "sons of the wicked." That they are what makes up our conciousness or other people? It seems in this context that those gathered and tied into bundles first are those who accept a message quickening them to a false identity or an identity short of coming out of Adam; like, "Who are you and what do you do?" is not answered according to the purpose of God. People identifying as "gay" would be an example. But what of someone identifying as Roman Catholic?" Is it a matter of degrees?
This is about the most difficult parable to me and it is said immediately following the key to all the parables, "The Sower." At least it's not in the other gospels. It's the only thing in the Bible left that I'm aware of for which I have no clear Universal Reconciliation apology.
Certainly I'm warned not to be wicked or a snare, one causing others to stumble.
Dear reFormer,
Happy New Year.
As far as "seed" goes . . .
You shall know them by their fruit. When the wheat seed comes to full fruited grain and the tares likewise you shall know them by their fruit.
The tares cannot produce good fruit and the wheat cannot produce bad fruit (tares fruit).
The only thing that can be done is to send in the reapers when the seeds have matured and cull out the tares from the wheat.
Another thing is that it is improper to change what God has said something is and make it something He did not say it is. If God said that the wheat are the sons of the kingdom and the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Also, we know that this judging is not the end of the sons of the wicked one for they, in the future, will be reconciled, justified, saved, headed up in the Christ and God will be All in all. So there is no need to change the parable just so the ETers can't use it against us.
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:12:49 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 12:41:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: bobf on December 31, 2008, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Or you could say that Paul is an example of why you can't harvest the wheat and the tares until they mature, otherwise you might pull out a future Paul--because you can't tell them apart until they mature.
I was sticking to Tony's interpretation in which a tare is a child of Satan which is anyone doing the works of Satan, so that would be Paul. Jesus also identified tares that way. Jesus said (paraphrasing) IF you were a child of Abraham you would DO the works of Abraham. But you seek to kill me, so you are a child of the devil. Hence, Paul was a child of the devil and a tare.
You can't tell the wheat from the tares until maturity.
Paul at maturity was a wheat.
Tony's inquisition!!!!
Dear Molly, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to banish you to God's eternal torment of Joy and Peace for that statement.
They knew the darnel or tares were seeded with the wheat at the time of their planting and The lord said to let them grow together until they mature.
They knew they were darnel of tares before they matured. Right?
Now be banished to God's joy!
Tony's inquisition has spoken!
So Paul, a Pharisee , who epitimised the Jew or Those WHO served the Ministration Of Death , was a Tare , But at Maturity, come the HARVEST ,Always destined to be wheat.
Or ,He once was Dead \ alseep \Blind, in Darkness to Christ as a Tare The Old man which Dies , Now passing through The veil Via Belief\Faith having the Soul( HEART MIND) burnt , that is, The Enmity of the carnal(ed) Mind being DEATH , RE NEWED as a Fulfilment of the New Covenant , "I will Place my laws in their Heart and Mind ", The shaken of the Heavens and earth which signify the Removal of that which was OLD,Being replaced the NEW, For GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE...NOW wheat or walking in the LIGHT of the DAY,AWAKE and No longer asleep in the DUST
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Dear Taffy, Paul was not harvested. The harvest comes "at the end of the eon" and all the tares and all the wheat are harvested at the same time, not one at a time.
Jesus never stated that the wheat could become tare or the tare could become wheat. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
That messes up the whole parable. Jesus said that what had to be done was to wait till the end of the eon and then send in the reapers and burn up what is not wheat.
The inquisitor has spoken! :icon_flower:
what of the tares being bundled and burned first
think of the parable of a dry branch too . just consider it please ?
Tony N :Sparkletooth:
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Saul /Paul was flesh those things he done were not of faith but ignorance . darkness and it is evil in the sight of God
he/Saul got his fill / full measure of and than was judged and changed , the old saul is metaphorically speaking DEAD
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Hi Bro :icon_flower:
I did hear ....Congrats,,Got Our first due In June, we can tell grand kiddie jokes between us then Bud.....ya still havin fun over at Carm :icon_flower:
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Amen. Sons of the kingdom = that which is produced from the loins/mind of Christ
Sons of the wicked one = that which is produced from the loins/mind of the wicked one
And congrats on the grandbaby! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:45:55 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Hi Bro :icon_flower:
I did hear ....Congrats,,Got Our first due In June, we can tell grand kiddie jokes between us then Bud.....ya still havin fun over at Carm :icon_flower:
yeah but my time there is short :laughing7:
awsome news on your GB. blessings, good to talk with you all, i will stick around for a while, feeling starved :violin:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:55:14 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:45:55 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Hi Bro :icon_flower:
I did hear ....Congrats,,Got Our first due In June, we can tell grand kiddie jokes between us then Bud.....ya still havin fun over at Carm :icon_flower:
yeah but my time there is short :laughing7:
awsome news on your GB. blessings, good to talk with you all, i will stick around for a while, feeling starved :violin:
Thanks bud, youll be a seasoned campainer by then
pull up a chair bro..boards have been busier than ever of late with a few familier names youll recognise. :icon_flower:
Quote from: bobf on January 02, 2009, 05:01:51 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Yes, so the harvest either happened back then--or it is ongoing...
I'm still thinking it had to do with the levite priesthood versus the sons of the kingdom..
Because once that priesthood was gone, it was gone (burned up)...
We can even see the gnashing of teeth going on..
64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.--Mat 26
the tares are sons of the wicked one
seems to me Saul /Paul did not know GOD or His ways
till Jesus come to Him [for a visit] he is a good example of tares destroyed first to wheat remaining into the kingdom , SO i will keep this going lol......... the devil , satan is awlays the NATURAL ways of thinking !
tell no man ??!! For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
saul / Paul was that MAN in authority
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
he saw the Light , it burned His eyes , he was made blind , who thought he saw God through the chief/ First leaders Priests !
there is more ....... :winkgrin:
Quote from: rosered on January 02, 2009, 06:01:42 PM
the tares are sons of the wicked one
seesm to me Saul /
yuppers.....
ground tillers, Cain was a tiller of the ground.
cain= earhtly minded.
abel= heavenly minded.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And
WHY slew he him? Because
his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
:2c:
chuckt
Quote from: rosered on January 02, 2009, 06:01:42 PM
the tares are sons of the wicked one
seesm to me Saul /
Saul before he met Christ and was converted.
But the other Pharisees met Christ and were not converted.
He told them, You will die in your sins.
So there is a difference.
But, Look at this--the parable of the fig tree--
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. --Mark 11
19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! --Mat 21
The fig tree is associated with the nation of Israel.--
1The LORD spoke to me in a vision after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia had come to Judah and taken King Jehoiachin, his officials, and all the skilled workers back to Babylonia. In this vision I saw
two baskets of figs in front of the LORD's temple. 2One basket was full of very good figs that ripened early, and the other was full of rotten figs that were not fit to eat. 3"Jeremiah," the LORD asked, "what do you see?"
"Figs," I said. "Some are very good, but the others are too rotten to eat."
4Then the LORD told me to say:
5People of Judah, the good figs stand for those of you I sent away as exiles to Babylonia, 6where I am watching over them. Then someday I will bring them back to this land. I will plant them, instead of uprooting them, and I will build them up, rather than tearing them down. 7I will give them a desire to know me and to be my people. They will want me to be their God, and they will turn back to me with all their heart.
8The rotten figs stand for King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and all the others who were not taken away to Babylonia, whether they stayed here in Judah or went to live in Egypt. 9I will punish them with a terrible disaster, and everyone on earth will tremble when they hear about it. I will force the people of Judah to go to foreign countries, where they will be cursed and insulted. 10War and hunger and disease will strike them,
until they finally disappear from the land that I gave them and their ancestors. --Jer 24
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 06:10:35 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 02, 2009, 06:01:42 PM
the tares are sons of the wicked one
seesm to me Saul /
yuppers.....
ground tillers, Cain was a tiller of the ground.
cain= earhtly minded.
abel= heavenly minded.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And WHY slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
:2c:
chuckt
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 06:17:23 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 02, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
i see tares being bundled up and burnt now......is was and will be.
hey YALL....second grandbaby on the way...a boy :bgdance:
inlove
chuckt
Hey Chuckles ! Congrads on the grandbaby bro ! :bigGrin: :bigGrin: Long time no see!
Big hugs for ya, missed you immensely, saw you at carm you always make me laugh :grin:
hugs and kisses, hey what was your name over there?
good to see all my old friends for sure.
chuck
1 Kings 4:25
And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.But Jesus takes this away--
19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! --Mat 21
Quotelooks like you can pull them out
Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Quote from: rosered on January 02, 2009, 06:01:42 PM
the tares are sons of the wicked one
seems to me Saul /Paul did not know GOD or His ways
till Jesus come to Him [for a visit] he is a good example of tares destroyed first to wheat remaining into the kingdom , SO i will keep this going lol......... the devil , satan is awlays the NATURAL ways of thinking !
tell no man ??!! For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
saul / Paul was that MAN in authority
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
he saw the Light , it burned His eyes , he was made blind , who thought he saw God through the chief/ First leaders Priests !
there is more ....... :winkgrin:
Yes, so Saul was literally converted from the old priesthood to the new priesthood.
Because until the road to Damascus, he was acting under the authority of the chief priests, and, afterwards, under the authority of the High Priest Jesus Christ.
Quote
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Sound like Angels of MERCY for me :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
Quote
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Sound like Angels of MERCY for me :icon_flower:
Heres a fire one wasnt aware of which burned him
Isaiah 42 :25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid [it] not to heart.
Where did the term angel of mercy come from? :grin:
Not always though G, heres vengence
2Thes 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power **WHEN** he shall come to be glorified **IN** his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
But the wrath of God being poured out was even seen back then but if Hes the same, the obedience to the gospel or disobedience to it would appear to invite the same thing, yet it does speak of when ones obedience is complete that every act of disobedience would be punished too
me Bad :mblush: Kinda thought that those who saved with Fear ,executed True Judgment and Mercy to those who went astray, But yes Vengeance Is His , reaping what we so
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Behold- it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but WILL RECOMPENSE, even recompense INTO THEIR BOSSOM :icon_flower:
Quote[/qNo I agree with ya G its just that judgment without mercy Jesus said would be ministered to those who didnt show any and by that I mean a Spirit of judgment to him that sits in judgment. Though when His judgments are in the earth they will learn to do righteousness, the reccompense reflects that into their bossom deal, the Lord will repay for sure. Sowing to something and reaping reward from God who is not mocked seems to fit, Amen
Amen sis Im wid ya, me eds like a sieve to day , these eds do me in :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 07:49:48 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 07:47:39 PM
Quote[/qNo I agree with ya G its just that judgment without mercy Jesus said would be ministered to those who didnt show any and by that I mean a Spirit of judgment to him that sits in judgment. Though when His judgments are in the earth they will learn to do righteousness, the reccompense reflects that into their bossom deal, the Lord will repay for sure. Sowing to something and reaping reward from God who is not mocked seems to fit, Amen
Amen sis Im wid ya, me eds like a sieve to day , these eds do me in :icon_flower:
I was going to ask you about that in your PM, I thought you meant meds and it was a typo, whats eds?
If your with me on eds I highly doubt you really are :grin: (busting on ya)
Tis me ed ( head) when the blood gets to thick , Im due for a section, over due probably , the Blood puts increased pressure on all your organs, as ya temperature rises ,..They work overtime to keep you Functioning...ya ache like no tomorrow, and ya head feels Like its Literally going to explode.....I dont get meds , they can do nothing for it bar drain the blood :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
How do you know that Tony?
How do you know what age he was talking about?
Certainly the age of the Mosaic Law and Levite priesthood ended 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
QuoteYes recall you go through this between times you go to the hospital, thats awful G that you go through this all the time, I can understand bro, I hope you will get some relief from this soon. What a thin to deal with, ugh, you poor thing ((hugs))
I wouldnt even know what that feels like and from what you tell me I dont want to either, I wish you were relieved of it, hopefully you go soon, but not soon enough huh?
ha,,listen to you,,ya cant even move or type cos of the pain :HeartThrob: ..we all got our flesh to bear sis....Cards got this Pneumonia,,,and as had it ages..nearly killed her a few times,..hope she dont mind me sharing it, she suffering as we speak big time.
hugs right backatcha :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
How do you know that Tony?
How do you know what age he was talking about?
Certainly the age of the Mosaic Law and Levite priesthood ended 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Dear Molly, we need to keep with the Scriptures. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about "the age of the Mosaic Law etc".
Every major eon in the Bible ends with an earth shattering event. The first eon ended with the earth becoming chaos and vacant (Gen.1:2).
The next eon ended with the earth being destroyed by water (Gen.6-9).
The next eon (this eon which began when the waters receded from Noah's flood and a new earth came out of those waters) will end with an earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
That eon will end with the earth being destroyed by fire and the new earth coming out of that.
That is how I know this eon has not ended yet.
[/quote]
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
Afternoon Tony
Weve been through the Temple Thread Bro..got no wheres...weve been thro the Wheat and Tares got No wheres
we been throu Just One verse Discussing Childbearing..GOT no wheres....and this is Going No wheres too Bro...
Next will be the Rapture, then something else,..they will go no wheres too...Bud maybe your knocking ya head agin a wall....opps yes ya did dint Bro...You are Not going to Convinve NOBODY( unless they see similar to you) ....
Happy Rapture Bro..Tell me whats its like when ya Get there..Ill be waitin.... :HeartThrob:
Bof Is Still awaiting an answer he gave you, try Him Bro...cos ya kinda guffed over Inocent and Ignorant didnt ya?
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
Afternoon Tony
Weve been through the Temple Thread Bro..got no wheres...weve been thro the Wheat and Tares got No wheres
we been throu Just One verse Discussing Childbearing..GOT no wheres....and this is Going No wheres too Bro...
Next will be the Rapture, then something else,..they will go no wheres too...Bud maybe your knocking ya head agin a wall....opps yes ya did dint Bro...You are Not going to Convinve NOBODY( unless they see similar to you) ....
Happy Rapture Bro..Tell me whats its like when ya Get there..Ill be waitin.... :HeartThrob:
Bof Is Still awaiting an answer he gave you, try Him Bro...cos ya kinda guffed over Inocent and Ignorant didnt ya?
That's O.K. Taffy, cause they didn't believe Christ or the disciples either. I doubt I will see you in the rapture.
Tootles.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:13:23 PM
The cities fall or the tenth part of them falling?
Read Revelation 19
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
How do you know that Tony?
How do you know what age he was talking about?
Certainly the age of the Mosaic Law and Levite priesthood ended 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Dear Molly, we need to keep with the Scriptures. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about "the age of the Mosaic Law etc".
Every major eon in the Bible ends with an earth shattering event. The first eon ended with the earth becoming chaos and vacant (Gen.1:2).
The next eon ended with the earth being destroyed by water (Gen.6-9).
The next eon (this eon which began when the waters receded from Noah's flood and a new earth came out of those waters) will end with an earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
That eon will end with the earth being destroyed by fire and the new earth coming out of that.
That is how I know this eon has not ended yet.
[/quote]
Yony there a re a few here who could show you,,but it would fall on deaf ears Brud.....ya going to have IT YOUR way..which is cool, :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
QuoteThat's O.K. Taffy, cause they didn't believe Christ or the disciples either. I doubt I will see you in the rapture.
Tootles.
yes ya will Tony........ as FAITH via Grace is what Counts.....and No one here are denying HIS words , even if you think they are, youve been shown a different perspective time and Time again.... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:16:26 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
How do you know that Tony?
How do you know what age he was talking about?
Certainly the age of the Mosaic Law and Levite priesthood ended 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Dear Molly, we need to keep with the Scriptures. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about "the age of the Mosaic Law etc".
Every major eon in the Bible ends with an earth shattering event. The first eon ended with the earth becoming chaos and vacant (Gen.1:2).
The next eon ended with the earth being destroyed by water (Gen.6-9).
The next eon (this eon which began when the waters receded from Noah's flood and a new earth came out of those waters) will end with an earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
That eon will end with the earth being destroyed by fire and the new earth coming out of that.
That is how I know this eon has not ended yet.
Quote
Yony there a re a few here who could show you,,but it would fall on deaf ears Brud.....ya going to have IT YOUR way..which is cool, :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Well, anyone can show me by going against the Bible. That's simple. Just make up what Christ said to be something other than what he said or make up anything different than what the Bible said. But that doesn't really prove anything, now does it?
BTW it's not my way. I quoted Scripture and it is sound. Every major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong.
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 04:36:05 PM
Tony we are seeing points from a different age perspective :HeartThrob:
Blessings
G
Hi Taffy,
The present wicked eon/age (Gal.1:4) has not ended yet and so the reaping of the wheat and tares has not yet occurred.
No where in the New Testament is it said that the reaping is one at a time in any age/eon.
How do you know that Tony?
How do you know what age he was talking about?
Certainly the age of the Mosaic Law and Levite priesthood ended 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Dear Molly, we need to keep with the Scriptures. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about "the age of the Mosaic Law etc".
Every major eon in the Bible ends with an earth shattering event. The first eon ended with the earth becoming chaos and vacant (Gen.1:2).
The next eon ended with the earth being destroyed by water (Gen.6-9).
The next eon (this eon which began when the waters receded from Noah's flood and a new earth came out of those waters) will end with an earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
That eon will end with the earth being destroyed by fire and the new earth coming out of that.
That is how I know this eon has not ended yet.
[/quote]I've given you a lot of quotes, but I just gave you one where Paul says there is a new covenant and the old one is obsolete and will soon fade away. That is huge. Let's take a moment and think about how huge that is. We now have a new priesthood. It's almost a different religion in how it [should be] practiced.
There's nothing in Rev 20, which gives a sequence of events, about the earth being destroyed by fire, so I'm not sure how to address that one, or whether I would even consider it literal if I could. I'm not saying this eon has ended yet, I'm saying that the eon ended when Jesus was crucified and resurrected, and definitely ended in 70 ad.
Rev 20 mentions nothing about the earth ending in fire.
Anyway, maybe the wheat and tares is a done deal as of 2000 years ago.
QuoteWell, anyone can show me by going against the Bible. That's simple. Just make up what Christ said to be something other than what he said or make up anything different than what the Bible said. But that doesn't really prove anything, now does it?
BTW it's not my way. I quoted Scripture and it is sound. Every major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong.
now theres a laugh...
you were shown Muliples of Scripture ON one Verse alone and all you did was spout from ya Mouth Bro, setting certain friction in women folk..go check the posts and see who quoted Most scriptures and you may find you are way short on that Count.
SO please DONT give me that, it dont wash, what you cant see bro,,are the similtudes, the Types and shadows, and bro ya left wanting......
if you want to come here to preach Bro, maybe your in the wrong Place......just a Point to consider....
Molly, look at the eons and how each eon ends with catastrophe and note the verses involved:
(http://saviourofall.org/images/EonsSml3.jpg)
I'm having trouble reading that, but they put Christ crucified in the middle of the present eon?
That doesn't even make sense.
Christ crucified is so momentous it would have to be the ending of one and the beginning of another.
Don't you think?
Are they saying that satan is currently chained? right now? That's a horrifying thought..
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:27:10 PM
QuoteWell, anyone can show me by going against the Bible. That's simple. Just make up what Christ said to be something other than what he said or make up anything different than what the Bible said. But that doesn't really prove anything, now does it?
BTW it's not my way. I quoted Scripture and it is sound. Every major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong.
now theres a laugh...
you were shown Muliples of Scripture ON one Verse alone and all you did was spout from ya Mouth Bro, setting certain friction in women folk..go check the posts and see who quoted Most scriptures and you may find you are way short on that Count.
SO please DONT give me that, it dont wash, what you cant see bro,,are the similtudes, the Types and shadows, and bro ya left wanting......
if you want to come here to preach Bro, maybe your in the wrong Place......just a Point to consider....
Dear Taffy,
LOL
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:31:09 PM
I'm having trouble reading that, but they put Christ crucified in the middle of the present eon?
That doesn't even make sense.
Christ crucified is so momentous it would have to be the ending of one and the beginning of another.
Don't you think?
Are they saying that satan is currently chained? right now? That's a horrifying thought..
Dear Molly,
Please note Christ's discourse to the disciples in Matthew 24 and 25 as to when the eon in which they were living was to end. No mention is made that that eon would end when Christ came or when Christ died.
Here is another chart more visible.
(http://saviourofall.org/images/EonsKirkChart.GIF)
Or go here:
http://saviourofall.org/charts/KirkEonChart.html (http://saviourofall.org/charts/KirkEonChart.html)
QuoteEvery major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong
Bro..you have been shown on ege..the end of the WORLD etc....its been done,OR TRIED BY A FEW FOLK ..cant ya understand we are coming from different perspectives...and nobody here want to argue about..
But ya aint going to stuff NOTHING down folks throat Because TONY says Its SO and HE QUOTES the scriptures....
IM right your wrong.....Dont push folk to hard Tony.....Leave them where there at"""" UNTIL.."""""""
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:34:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:31:09 PM
I'm having trouble reading that, but they put Christ crucified in the middle of the present eon?
That doesn't even make sense.
Christ crucified is so momentous it would have to be the ending of one and the beginning of another.
Don't you think?
Are they saying that satan is currently chained? right now? That's a horrifying thought..
Dear Molly,
Please note Christ's discourse to the disciples in Matthew 24 and 25 as to when the eon in which they were living was to end. No mention is made that that eon would end when Christ came or when Christ died.
Here is another chart more visible.
(http://saviourofall.org/images/EonsKirkChart.GIF)
I thought he starts out Chapter 24 by saying there won't be one stone standing upon another of the temple in Jerusalem. Then he goes on to explain the signs leading up to that event. Isn't that a reasonable way to read that?
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:27:10 PM
QuoteWell, anyone can show me by going against the Bible. That's simple. Just make up what Christ said to be something other than what he said or make up anything different than what the Bible said. But that doesn't really prove anything, now does it?
BTW it's not my way. I quoted Scripture and it is sound. Every major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong.
now theres a laugh...
you were shown Muliples of Scripture ON one Verse alone and all you did was spout from ya Mouth Bro, setting certain friction in women folk..go check the posts and see who quoted Most scriptures and you may find you are way short on that Count.
SO please DONT give me that, it dont wash, what you cant see bro,,are the similtudes, the Types and shadows, and bro ya left wanting......
if you want to come here to preach Bro, maybe your in the wrong Place......just a Point to consider....
Dear Taffy, LOL
So I take that as You confirm..because ya Never denied it did you....Go count, then come back and Laugh
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:35:03 PM
QuoteEvery major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong
Bro..you have been shown on ege..the end of the WORLD etc....its been done,OR TRIED BY A FEW FOLK ..cant ya understand we are coming from different perspectives...and nobody here want to argue about..
But ya aint going to stuff NOTHING down folks throat Because TONY says Its SO and HE QUOTES the scriptures....
IM right your wrong.....Dont push folk to hard Tony.....Leave them where there at"""" UNTIL.."""""""
Dear Taffy,
Please, don't get all emotional on me. Just keep with the topic. Threats are not part of this topic. It is about figures of speech and spiritual and figurative. unless you are just being figurative about your veiled threats? LOL
oh By the way Mr Inquisition
Bob F still waiting..and I am...but i dare say we will wait a long time cos when ya get lost ya run...Prove me wrong Bud.
go answer Him...Mr Inquisition :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:37:00 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:34:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:31:09 PM
I'm having trouble reading that, but they put Christ crucified in the middle of the present eon?
That doesn't even make sense.
Christ crucified is so momentous it would have to be the ending of one and the beginning of another.
Don't you think?
Are they saying that satan is currently chained? right now? That's a horrifying thought..
Dear Molly,
Please note Christ's discourse to the disciples in Matthew 24 and 25 as to when the eon in which they were living was to end. No mention is made that that eon would end when Christ came or when Christ died.
QuoteI thought he starts out Chapter 24 by saying there won't be one stone standing upon another of the temple in Jerusalem. Then he goes on to explain the signs leading up to that event. Isn't that a reasonable way to read that?
Dear Molly, it is not just about that. Please see that even Christ spoke about the great earthquake which must come before this eon ends.
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:35:03 PM
QuoteEvery major eon ends with an earth shattering experience to the earth. If not then bring forth your super duper people here who can prove the Bible wrong
Bro..you have been shown on ege..the end of the WORLD etc....its been done,OR TRIED BY A FEW FOLK ..cant ya understand we are coming from different perspectives...and nobody here want to argue about..
But ya aint going to stuff NOTHING down folks throat Because TONY says Its SO and HE QUOTES the scriptures....
IM right your wrong.....Dont push folk to hard Tony.....Leave them where there at"""" UNTIL.."""""""
Dear Taffy,
Please, don't get all emotional on me. Just keep with the topic. Threats are not part of this topic. It is about figures of speech and spiritual and figurative. unless you are just being figurative about your veiled threats? LOL
No Tony Not a Threat ..A POINT to Consider...... :HeartThrob:
Sorry Bud I know that ya favorite quote...lets get back on topic.. :laughing7:.
Again Tony No answer
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:41:55 PM
oh By the way Mr Inquisition
Bob F still waiting..and I am...but i dare say we will wait a long time cos when ya get lost ya run...Prove me wrong Bud.
go answer Him...Mr Inquisition :icon_flower:
I will see if I can find his post you want me to answer when I have time. Can you post the URL to it? In the meantime I have to go pick up my daughter and cousins and do some things with them.
I have run from no one here Taffy and surely won't run from Bob or you or anyone.
I will be praying for you in the time being.
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 02, 2009, 08:46:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:41:55 PM
oh By the way Mr Inquisition
Bob F still waiting..and I am...but i dare say we will wait a long time cos when ya get lost ya run...Prove me wrong Bud.
go answer Him...Mr Inquisition :icon_flower:
I will see if I can find his post you want me to answer when I have time. Can you post the URL to it? In the meantime I have to go pick up my daughter and cousins and do some things with them.
I have run from no one here Taffy and surely won't run from Bob or you or anyone.
I will be praying for you in the time being.
Tony
Drive carefully Tony and sure No worries,, and no ones asking you to Run Bro....
Ditto :HeartThrob:
see ya later bud
Tony, Right in the middle of Mat 24, he says this--
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
So he's talking about events in Judaea, not in New York City.
Then he tells them about the fig tree--which we know he's been telling them for a while that the fig will produce no more fruit forever--relating to Israel--
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
In chapter 25, he says he is going to divide the nations--and today we do have great Christian nations, great Muslim nations, great Hindu nations, etc.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:03:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?
But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?
Hey G want to take a stab at it? :grin:
agh..A peaceful word....not Now sis maybe when me Head clears some...tis all yours if ya wish...theres a Pm in ya box for ya
xoxoxooxoxoxoxo
Hebrews 9:26
Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
wow it says at the end of the ages. You can't get much clearer than that.
Except does it mean all ages are now ended?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:03:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?
But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?
Hey G want to take a stab at it? :grin:
agh..A peaceful word....not Now sis maybe when me Head clears some...tis all yours if ya wish...theres a Pm in ya box for ya
xoxoxooxoxoxoxo
:grin: Me and Chrissie was going on this last year I thought it was pretty amazing, end of one world but before the foundation of one, the declaring "the end" FROM the beginning= Christ (whose name is both the beginning and the end) Pretty kool how he hides stuff, then theres the beginning of wisdom and the receiving the END of your faith :grin: I wonder WHO? :grin:
come to me some time back sis,dont know how far ya Got with it, theres sure a Lot tied up in those verses..like everything,
Like all scriptures sis...TIS HIM which they Testify too :icon_flower:
Brings in the end of Man 120 Years as with Moses( End of AGE), Rosey added some too not long back On the Days Be shortened 70 Yrs...it just goes on agh sis..heads a scramble kiddo.. :icon_flower:
AMEN
OH Nice verse Molly
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:40:44 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 09:03:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?
But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?
Hey G want to take a stab at it? :grin:
agh..A peaceful word....not Now sis maybe when me Head clears some...tis all yours if ya wish...theres a Pm in ya box for ya
xoxoxooxoxoxoxo
:grin: Me and Chrissie was going on this last year I thought it was pretty amazing, end of one world but before the foundation of one, the declaring "the end" FROM the beginning= Christ (whose name is both the beginning and the end) Pretty kool how he hides stuff, then theres the beginning of wisdom and the receiving the END of your faith :grin: I wonder WHO? :grin:
come to me some time back sis,dont know how far ya Got with it, theres sure a Lot tied up in those verses..like everything,
Like all scriptures sis...TIS HIM which they Testify too :icon_flower:
Brings in the end of Man 120 Years as with Moses( End of AGE), Rosey added some too not long back On the Days Be shortened 70 Yrs...it just goes on agh sis..heads a scramble kiddo.. :icon_flower:
Exactly the age of Moses is shown around the time of the flood, the numbering of mans days 120 years which makes sense of the FIGURE it became and links Adam and Moses together even in Genenis before we even see Him in the picture. I got my old notes on it on the other puter. When Moses died his NATURAL force was not abated, but neither was Pauls when He died :grin:
:HeartThrob:
WITNESSED also here sis
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
:cloud9: And Sheba has significance this way also; those that are placed back in the outer court from the inner court, who did not press in to go into the Holy of Holies (where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when they see what they could have had), are "Sheba-ed", ie. marked with an oath. Sheba means also to return again. You can't return to a place you've never been. Sheba, a type of the soul, when she saw all of Solomon's riches, and His wisdom, there was no breath left in her (she gave up the ghost/died to self). Cain was marked for this reason also.
Also, look up the THIRD well, it's name is Beersheba, the first two represent the flesh and the mind that we have to overcome; our "enemies" push us to the 3rd and then we find peace......Blessings.....
yo shabeans =Sheba\oath Seven..That One was New To me sis... :HeartThrob:
gosh Tis every where..I love it when I see something new....Decendant of SETH, woooooooooooooooo
An upheaval, or radical change is called an earthquake.
"We all go down in the crust of our earth, but come up rejoicing in newness of life."
A transformation from earthly to heavenly; putting our carnal thoughts to rest. And then shall that wicked be revealed.
peacemaker
I also agree because what is earthly sensual and devilish is below
and what is above is
the heavenly realm is peace , joy and the Holy Ghost
what a differnce a DAY makes .. hee or The DAY [CHRIST] :winkgrin:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 10:24:17 PM
Wow! Sheba means also to return? Seven and Return? Like SEVEN more spirits that RETURN into an empty house? There were seven cast out of another woman :grin: A woman and the number seven (hmmm where have I seen that before?) :grin: In revelation too woman sitting on seven things there lol
:cloud9: It ties in with Hosea, the end of 5 and the beginning of 6, where God says He will return unto His place until we acknowledge our offense. Our offense? That our ways are not His ways, so the fear of the Lord (acknowledging our offense) is the beginning of wisdom.
So we, as souls are returning to being one with Him from the foundation of the world. The firstfruits follow the Lamb wheresoever He goest, into the Holy of Holies, ie. the sons of God manifested. Those that don't are "cast out" back into outer court realm, but they are marked to return, this is UR in another pattern. Blessings...
Tony, here is a copy of my earlier post.
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 02:42:06 PMNo, dear friend, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. They are not literally the offspring of Satan.
Tony, I didn't say that Satan impregnated their mothers. I said that's what someone who believes the serpent-seed doctrine (i.e. who read "children" literally) would say to you. My point is that you do not take "children" literally.
QuotePaul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."
Ignorantly does not mean innocently.
QuoteBefore Paul even believed he was already set for life eonian:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
It doesn't say that if they believe they would be set for life eonian.
So Paul was a wheat, a son of the kingdom, even before doing anything good or bad that God's grace may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts but of Him Who is calling.
But now you've changed your definition of wheat & tares to elect and non-elect. Before you said "The sons of the wicked one make snares and do lawlessness" and Paul was doing lawlessness by killing Christians. Your first definition was correct. Jesus identified the sons of God and sons of Satan by their deeds.
- John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
Jesus talks about good trees bringing forth good fruit and corrupt trees bringing forth corrupt fruit. Each tree is identified by it's fruit. Paul admits here to having been a corrupt tree, having the same nature and walking according to the same spirit as any tare.
- Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So what you're telling me is that the wheat & tares are not identified by their fruit, but by whether God has elected them, which no one can know who that is. The wheat and tares in the parable were identified by their fruit when the fruit appeared.
Hi Tony
Chris would appreciate an Answer too
Quote
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 05:41:54 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 31, 2008, 05:15:05 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 03:36:43 PM
Tony writes
Quote
Jesus didn't want the removal of the darnel to take place UNTIL both the darnel and the wheat was ready. That's the point. The point is not the how of removing but WHEN is the proper time to remove both. It is when both are ripe for harvest. And that time is at the end of the eon and not afterword.
Mat 13:39 the harvest IS **the end of** the world; and THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
But then he says this...
John 4:25 SAY NOT ye, There are YET four months, and THEN cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
I mean he did say "the REAPERS are the Angels" right? But then He also said "I send YOU TO REAP"
John 4:38 I sent **YOU** TO REAP that whereon ye bestowed NO LABOUR: ***other men laboured***, and ye are entered **into** their labours.
Which appears to connect to this same thought
Neh 4:21 So we laboured **in the work** and half of them ***held the spears*** from ***THE RISING OF*** the morning **TILL** THE STARS APPEARED.
The ANGELS, or the STARS APPEARING in THE WORK (or labour) they ENTER INTO that which THEY HAVE BESTOWED NO LABOUR = OTHER MEN laboured
2Cr 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in ***ANOTHER man's line of things*** **MADE READY** TO **OUR HAND**
Which is sorta kool because Paul said "Ye received me as an ANGEL, as Christ himself" and in Revelation it speaks of an Angel having the everlasting gospel and how Paul was not taught the gospel he preached but received it of a revelation of Jesus Christ, and also how he said, if any man preaches another gospel then the one we preached let him be accursed.
But in regards to the Angels, its kool it shows elsewhere one holding a SICKLE (which are pruning hooks) TO REAP but not with spears (the others held). The spears were held TILL the Stars (I see as the angels) who appeared. The beating of" ones swords into pruning hooks is shown too.
Though I think its kinda neat how they actually laboured till the MORNING did RISE and then (((the stars appeared))) cause (I personally) see stars much better at night
Dear Fireinfolding,
The disciples of John 4 are not the angels/messengers of the parable of the tares and the wheat.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The end of the world or eon did not happen in John 4:
So Christ did not appear once IN the end of the world?
So are you saying there is YET four months (or whatever amount of time there is) UNTIL the harvest?
Nothing applies huh? Just your word bout it?
No sweetheart, Jesus did not appear at the end of the world.
Here is the verse:
Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest."
Please note that "eons" is plural. When the eons end then sin will finally be repudiated due to His sacrifice. And it was for that reason He was manifest.
I think that the harvest Jesus spoke of in John 4 did come but the harvest of Matthew comes at the end of the eon, the end of this eon in which we life.
No sweetheart, it is not my word about it but THE Word has the final say.
He still came at the end of the "eons" (ages, or "world" as rendered in the KJV to which Fire was referring) did He not?
So if "the harvest" takes place at "the end of the world" (ages) and Christ came "at the end of the world" (ages) and He said (when He was here) that the field was "white already to harvest" and He said that in the time of harvest (which takes place "at the end of the world" or "ages", which time it was when He came) He would send forth His angels to reap and He said "I sent you to reap" (speaking to His disciples), how are they NOT "the angels" (the reapers) of whom Christ spoke? And how is the harvest of John 4 and the harvest of Mat 13 not the same harvest?
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1 Cor 13
Quote from: rosered on January 02, 2009, 11:13:59 PM
I also agree because what is earthly sensual and devilish is below
and what is above is
the heavenly realm is peace , joy and the Holy Ghost
what a differnce a DAY makes .. hee or The DAY [CHRIST] :winkgrin:
Amen Rose!
Christ said: "Ye are
from beneath; I am
from above: ye are
of this world; I am
not of this world."
The way of
LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from
HELL BENEATH! :grin:
AMEN!! :happygrin:
Thy kingdom come thy will be done IN EARTH as is it IN HEAVEN. :thumbsup:
You did that to me. :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy on January 02, 2009, 08:41:55 PM
oh By the way Mr Inquisition
Bob F still waiting..and I am...but i dare say we will wait a long time cos when ya get lost ya run...Prove me wrong Bud.
go answer Him...Mr Inquisition :icon_flower:
TELL ME ABOUT IT! :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy link=topic=3960.msg44993#msg44993
Again Tony No answer
Oh, so that's what the "N" stands for. :laughing7: :BangHead:
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2009, 08:49:10 PM
Tony, Right in the middle of Mat 24, he says this--
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
So he's talking about events in Judaea, not in New York City.
Then he tells them about the fig tree--which we know he's been telling them for a while that the fig will produce no more fruit forever--relating to Israel--
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
In chapter 25, he says he is going to divide the nations--and today we do have great Christian nations, great Muslim nations, great Hindu nations, etc.
Dear Molly, my bad :Oops:
Christ spoke of earthquakes in divers places
Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."
He also said that before He comes and before the eon in which we live ends this also must take place:
Mat 24:29
Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
And John, in Revelation states the same thing will happen before the Lord returns:
Rev 8:12 "And the fourth messenger trumpets. And a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were eclipsed, that a third of them may be darkened, and the day may not be appearing for a third of it, and the night likewise."
Rev 6:12-14 And I perceived, when It opens the sixth seal, and a great cataclysm occurred, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood, (13) and the stars of heaven fall on the earth as a fig tree is casting its shriveled figs, quaking under a great wind." (14) And heaven recoils as a scroll rolling up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place."
John also stated that before this eon ends . . . before the 1000 year eon comes that this must happen:
Rev 16:18-20 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred.
And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since mankind came to be on the earth; of such proportions was the quake and so great." (19) And the great city came to be divided into three parts;
and the cities of the nations fall. And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation." (20)
And every island fled, and the mountains were not found."
Isaiah also spoke of that terrible day:
Isa 13:9-13 Behold! The day of Yahweh has come, cruel, with rage and hot anger, to make the entire earth a desolation, and its sinners is He exterminating from it." (10) For the stars of the heavens are not appearing, and their constellations are not irradiating their light. Dark is the sun in its faring forth, and the moon is not brightening with its light." (11) And I check over all the habitance for its evil, and on the wicked for their depravity. And I eradicate the pomp of the arrogant, and the pride of the terrifiers am I abasing." (12) More precious am I making the remaining mortal than glittering gold. And a human than certified African gold. (13) Therefore the heavens will I disturb, and the earth shall quake from its place, in the furious rage of Yahweh of hosts, and in the day of His hot anger."
And Mark records this event:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that affliction, the sun shall be darkened,
Mar 13:25 and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling out of heaven, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken."
Mar 13:26 And then shall they be seeing the Son of Mankind coming in clouds with much power and glory.
These things all happen before the present eon ends. The disciples asked the Lord:
Mat 24:3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?and He enumerated all which the above verses speak of. Please note also in Revelation that all these things must come to pass before the thousand year reign of Christ comes in Revelation 20:4 which is the next eon.
:Peace:
Tony
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 03, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?
But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?
Tony any thought on this one?
Dear Fireinfolding,
I cannot find the verse where it stated that "Jesus appear once in the end of the world." could you please reference that verse?
As to your second statement:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Lamb was slain proleptically from the disruption; actually, of course, He was slain at Golgotha.
The blood of Christ was
1Pe 1:20 "foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you, who through Him are believing in God,
Just as Abraham carried the death of his son for days before ascending the mountain, so God carried the death of His Son for many thousands of years before the mount of Golgotha.
Quote from: bobf on January 03, 2009, 12:11:17 AM
Tony, here is a copy of my earlier post.
Quote from: Tony N on January 01, 2009, 02:42:06 PMNo, dear friend, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. They are not literally the offspring of Satan.
Tony, I didn't say that Satan impregnated their mothers. I said that's what someone who believes the serpent-seed doctrine (i.e. who read "children" literally) would say to you. My point is that you do not take "children" literally.
QuotePaul was chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world. The others were not. So though Paul was killing christians he did it (according to him) innocently.
1Ti 1:13 "I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."
Ignorantly does not mean innocently.
QuoteBefore Paul even believed he was already set for life eonian:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
It doesn't say that if they believe they would be set for life eonian.
So Paul was a wheat, a son of the kingdom, even before doing anything good or bad that God's grace may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts but of Him Who is calling.
But now you've changed your definition of wheat & tares to elect and non-elect. Before you said "The sons of the wicked one make snares and do lawlessness" and Paul was doing lawlessness by killing Christians. Your first definition was correct. Jesus identified the sons of God and sons of Satan by their deeds.
- John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
Jesus talks about good trees bringing forth good fruit and corrupt trees bringing forth corrupt fruit. Each tree is identified by it's fruit. Paul admits here to having been a corrupt tree, having the same nature and walking according to the same spirit as any tare.
- Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So what you're telling me is that the wheat & tares are not identified by their fruit, but by whether God has elected them, which no one can know who that is. The wheat and tares in the parable were identified by their fruit when the fruit appeared.
Dear Bobf, let's go back and see what Jesus said:
"He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind."
Mat 13:38-42 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one." (39) Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers. (40) Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon." (41) The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
- sower of ideal seed = Son of Mankind
- Field = world
- Ideal seed = sons of the kingdom
- Darnel = sons of the wicked one
- Enemy that sows darnel = the Adversary
- Harvest = conclusion of the eon
- Reapers = messengers
How will the messengers know which ones are the sons of the adversary which they will separate from the ideal seed?
The messengers will see who are doing
snares and those doing lawlessness and take them out of the kingdom.
Those are the sons of the wicked one. The messengers know them by their fruit.
Paul is a departure from this since God is now dealing with us in grace rather than wrath. Paul was shown mercy.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 03, 2009, 07:04:55 PM
Thank you G I was trying to fix the quotes myself and I was like, "the heck with it" :grin:
Hi sis No worries,..Im still suffering some, not up to posting much..heads Like cotton wool...thanks for the Pm, ill get around later to responding...OH ,and ya Post made sense to me :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tony N on January 03, 2009, 02:33:22 PM
- sower of ideal seed = Son of Mankind
- Field = world
- Ideal seed = sons of the kingdom
- Darnel = sons of the wicked one
- Enemy that sows darnel = the Adversary
- Harvest = conclusion of the eon
- Reapers = messengers
I agree with your list, but the stuff on the right still has to be interpreted.
QuoteHow will the messengers know which ones are the sons of the adversary which they will separate from the ideal seed? The messengers will see who are doing snares and those doing lawlessness and take them out of the kingdom.
The phrases "children of the wicked one" and "children of the kingdom" are not interpreted or explained by Christ. You have
interpreted them as physical people with names like BobF and TonyN, depending on whether God has elected them to inherit the kingdom at the end of the eon.
But other scripture already defines those terms:
Children of the God = those who do righteousness
Children of the Devil = those who do not do righteousness
Using your interpretation combined with those two definitions:
- Every person hearing that parable was either a wheat or tare
- Those who were wheat will enter the kingdom of God
- But first they had to repent, repent of not doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil
- Wheat had to repent of being tares
- So this is messed up!
Let's work backwards:
- Wheat is a child of the kingdom.
- A child of the kingdom is a child of God.
- A child of God is one who is born of God.
- That which is born of the Spirit (God) is spirit.
- So a Child of God, Child of the Kingdom, Wheat, is spirit born of the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, born within the heart of a person of flesh and blood by incorruptible Seed, the Word of Life, planted by Christ in the world, specifically in the hearts of people in the world.
Wheat bares wheat fruit. Good trees bare good fruit. Whosoever (Spirit of Christ in me) is born of God can not sin.
Tares bare tare fruit. Corrupt trees bare corrupt fruit. He (carnal man) who sins is of the devil.
- Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
Tony there is both:
- SIN and EVIL dwelling IN ME and WITH ME that is NOT ME!
- An INWARD MAN that delighteth in the law of God and that is ME!
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
1 Peter
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1:5, 7, 20) ...in these days.
1:6 Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at (from) the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1:8 Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, you rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory
1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us, they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that [is] to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be you holy; for I am holy.
1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1:18 For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1:19-20)
1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for you,
1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1:22 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.
1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
1:25 But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel [of Christ] is preached unto you.
"A carnal mind is not the only thing within man; unless he is heartless."
peacemaker
Taffy, you are in my heart of hearts, brethren!
Fire in folding (love that name).
Emphases are good, thus, also read the portion not in bold.
Separate thought ...
And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since mankind came to be on the earth; of such proportions was the quake and so great; that it tore the veil.
Brings tears to the eyes just thinking about it. An act of weeping or grieving!
peacemaker
PM - Fire - Rosey - Card. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Thanks guys...
PM love to you and Your Wife Bro...Hope shes very MUCH on the MEND :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 04, 2009, 01:08:48 AM
PM - Fire - Rosey - Card. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Thanks guys...
PM love to you and Your Wife Bro...Hope shes very MUCH on the MEND :icon_flower:
Thank you, brethren!
There is always hope, although her body is frail, tenuous, and in severe pain due to multiple surgeries.
But, she remains spiritually "strong of heart!" Like someone else I've come to know :icon_flower:
And it appears that you have broken the eleventh commandment of; "thou shall not speak." :Oops:
peacemaker
Quote from: bobf on January 03, 2009, 08:12:12 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 03, 2009, 02:33:22 PM
- sower of ideal seed = Son of Mankind
- Field = world
- Ideal seed = sons of the kingdom
- Darnel = sons of the wicked one
- Enemy that sows darnel = the Adversary
- Harvest = conclusion of the eon
- Reapers = messengers
I agree with your list, but the stuff on the right still has to be interpreted.
QuoteHow will the messengers know which ones are the sons of the adversary which they will separate from the ideal seed? The messengers will see who are doing snares and those doing lawlessness and take them out of the kingdom.
The phrases "children of the wicked one" and "children of the kingdom" are not interpreted or explained by Christ. You have interpreted them as physical people with names like BobF and TonyN, depending on whether God has elected them to inherit the kingdom at the end of the eon.
But other scripture already defines those terms:
Children of the God = those who do righteousness
Children of the Devil = those who do not do righteousness
Using your interpretation combined with those two definitions:
- Every person hearing that parable was either a wheat or tare
- Those who were wheat will enter the kingdom of God
- But first they had to repent, repent of not doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil
- Wheat had to repent of being tares
- So this is messed up!
Tony's reply:
Dear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.
QuoteBob wrote:
Let's work backwards:
- Wheat is a child of the kingdom.
- A child of the kingdom is a child of God.
- A child of God is one who is born of God.
- That which is born of the Spirit (God) is spirit.
- So a Child of God, Child of the Kingdom, Wheat, is spirit born of the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, born within the heart of a person of flesh and blood by incorruptible Seed, the Word of Life, planted by Christ in the world, specifically in the hearts of people in the world.
Wheat bares wheat fruit. Good trees bare good fruit. Whosoever (Spirit of Christ in me) is born of God can not sin.
Tares bare tare fruit. Corrupt trees bare corrupt fruit. He (carnal man) who sins is of the devil.
- Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
Tony there is both:
- SIN and EVIL dwelling IN ME and WITH ME that is NOT ME!
- An INWARD MAN that delighteth in the law of God and that is ME!
Tony's reply:
Dear Bob,
First of all, the angels do the reaping. It doesn't say that when one repents they are reaped.
Mat 13:41-42
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers (or angels), and
they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
This is not about individuals repenting of being a tare and upon repentence become a wheat.
If you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
When the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon.
Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.
If that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.
The messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.
The reaping does not happen when each individual person repents. It is an all or nothing event. It is ALL the tares and ALL the wheat ALL at the same time are reaped and culled at the end of the eon and the tares are bundled up, cast out of the kingdom where they will wheep and gnash their teeth. It is all the sons of the kingdom and all the sons of the wicked one all at the exact same time being reaped by the angels and the sons of the wicked one being cast out of the kingdom where they will weep and gnash their teeth.
Sorry if this gives anyone a headache.
The truth hurts first and then it sets you free.
Tony
http://saviourofall.org
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 04, 2009, 09:13:59 PM
Makes you wonder why (in regards to the "smoke") its worded like... "the smoke OF their torment" ascendeth?
wow food for thought sis !
a burning is going on as we speak :thumbsup:
QuoteHey Rose, when God breathed into the Adams NOSTRILS didnt he breathe into HIS WRATH or anger? I recall you showed that to me once...Thinking bout that take a second look here
Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **THESE ARE** A SMOKE in MY NOSE, A FIRE that burneth all the day.
Children of Nostrils or His NOSE? Children of wrath or anger get it sis? the anger of man does not cause the righteousness of God or something like that? lol
this is ?
Jam 1:20
For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
wrath here is orgē 3709 Greek
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
Quote from: Tony N on January 04, 2009, 03:07:22 PMDear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.
Tony, I didnt say that the parable is
about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting. What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.
Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent
Can you tell me which?
In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned? Did Paul say his whole self sinned? Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present
with me" and "sin that
dwelleth in me".
- Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
QuoteIf you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.
- Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...
Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged. If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.
- Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.
- Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete. Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there. That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.
QuoteHow does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.
QuoteWhen the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon. Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.
According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them. I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event. So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event. Saying it is
primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.
QuoteIf that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.
- Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
- Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
What did Jesus say to all? "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."
QuoteThe messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.
The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.
Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one
Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness
Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me
Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 04, 2009, 11:37:10 PM
Good post Bobf, whats interesting too is the binding up of the tares and how the disciples were given the power to bind or loose, think that could apply?
Those scriptures actually came to mind while I was writing my last post. Not sure how they apply or what they mean though. :sigh:
QuoteJob 36:13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.
Heap up and treasurest up are the same between them in relation to wrath
Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God
Interesting. Here's another translation: "The godless in heart cherish anger; they do not cry for help when he binds them.
QuoteMaybe somethings in this in regards to the binding them and the revelation of Gods righteous Judgment even when Jesus Christ is revealed with his angels who bind them in bundles and the binding and loosing given to His disciples?
I didn't quite get that part, can you rephrase?
Thanks,
Bob
good stuff Kimbo ,
Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
remit
1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
1) to disregard
2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
a) of teachers, writers and speakers
3) to omit, neglect
d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
a) in order to go to another place
b) to depart from any one
c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
d) to desert wrongfully
e) to go away leaving something behind
f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
i) abandon, leave destitute
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] you retain, they are retained.
retain 1) to have power, be powerful
a) to be chief, be master of, to rule
2) to get possession of
a) to become master of, to obtain
b) to take hold of
c) to take hold of, take, seize
1) to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power
3) to hold
a) to hold in the hand
b) to hold fast, i.e. not discard or let go
1) to keep carefully and faithfully
c) to continue to hold, to retain
1) of death continuing to hold one
2) to hold in check, restrain
seems Jesus is saying to forgive or to hold accountable dont it ?!!! :mshock:
Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.
But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:
peacemaker
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 12:19:55 AM
Quoteseems Jesus is saying to forgive or to hold accountable dont it ?!!!
Sorta explains Pauls response about Alexander the coppersmith (who did him much harm) when he said "Lord REPAY Him" (bind him) verses "Lord FORGIVE Him" (loose him) maybe?
What do you think?
It sure does seem that way to me , I really dont understand the word remit by itself and how it is applied in the biblical sense , the word definitions do help
with that single verse I could never get it lol :dontknow:
Jhn 20:23
Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] you retain, they are retained. what????
I thought of the same thing!!
Alexander the coppersmith too!, and How Paul held him accountable to God repayment plan :thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 12:23:25 AM
Rose the word "permit" sorta reminds me of ones obedience being "fulfilled" too because Paul speaks of when your obedience is fulfilled every act of disobedience would be punished
Yes sis , its is a type of power given a Standard maybe ?
#3 in the dict defintions :thumbsup:
3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard)
Quote from: bobf on January 04, 2009, 10:58:58 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 04, 2009, 03:07:22 PMDear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.
Tony, I didnt say that the parable is about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting. What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.
Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent
Can you tell me which?
In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned? Did Paul say his whole self sinned? Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present with me" and "sin that dwelleth in me".
- Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
QuoteIf you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.
- Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...
Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged. If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.
- Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.
- Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete. Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there. That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.
QuoteHow does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.
QuoteWhen the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon. Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.
According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them. I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event. So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event. Saying it is primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.
QuoteIf that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.
- Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
- Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
What did Jesus say to all? "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."
QuoteThe messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.
The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.
Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one
Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness
Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me
Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person
Hi bob, enjoyed the post.
so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??
I can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire;
and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad).
and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith;
and those
who will go down in shame.
what ya think?
Hi Kim ,
you Know I feel Jesus is the standard and set the rule , meausing line
When he told us to pray for our enemies , that was taking the Law to another level [higher standard]
that had not been in effect before , it was eye for eye and tooth for tooth '
thought of this one .....And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
what do you think that means ? to loose on earth and heaven
or bind on earth and heaven ?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 03, 2009, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 03, 2009, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 03, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 02, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
Didnt Jesus appear once in the end of the world? End of what world then Tony?
But he was Lamb that was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world, what world was that too? And yet the flood was a figure of batism itself, how do you work that?
Tony any thought on this one?
Dear Fireinfolding,
I cannot find the verse where it stated that "Jesus appear once in the end of the world." could you please reference that verse?
Here it is Tony
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
As to your second statement:Quote
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Lamb was slain proleptically from the disruption; actually, of course, He was slain at Golgotha.
The blood of Christ was
1Pe 1:20 "foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you, who through Him are believing in God,
Just as Abraham carried the death of his son for days before ascending the mountain, so God carried the death of His Son for many thousands of years before the mount of Golgotha.
Tony thats the verse and you are correct on the BEFORE the foundation of the earth, thats my fault I cant always quote very well depending on what puter Im on. The word is FROM the foundation of the world, now I reckon it the same given theres a foundation but I also hate when His words arent used so my appologies on freehanding that.
Yes I agree with him being foreordained and the propheticness of it
1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
And he was also the lamb slain from the foundation of the world who appeared once in the end of the world, I understand the prophetic implications by that meaning I can see The cross of Christ hidden in the days of Genesis and I know God calls things that are not as though they are but its the wording concerning what he said, He said the harvest is at the end of the world, he also said SAY NOT **four months** till the harvest (if your following his every word). So Jesus is saying WHEN the harvest is *the end of the world* and tells us what NOT to say in regards to this harvest yet the appostles are confirming he came ONCE **the end of** the world. So my question is which world? The old world (and God not sparing it) is linked specifically to Noah yet at the same time Peter speaks of Noahs time as a FIGURE of the baptism that saves and so Jesus appearing once in the end of the world collaberates with this figure concerning the baptism that speaks back to the end of the world at that time and pulls it forward in Christ who come in the end of that world.
Im not sure if Im being clear or you can understand what Im getting at
:mrflo: If he really didn't know, he wouldn't have corrected ya earlier by posting the same verse from a different translation, in this post: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3960.msg44519#msg44519
:laughing7:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 12:56:59 AM
Rose look up the other word "retain" 2192 thats attached to the word "child" and to Jesus words "hath 2192 power" or ears etc. Is it contrary to remit in that respect, having power verses not having power?
Gees this is irking me :grin: Still looking
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
with child 1722 1064 2192 this can really apply to so many things :mshock: to hold /possess
I cannot narrow it down lol....... sorry maybe some one else or you can ?
it is interesting enough though .... :thumbsup:
I just don't see how Paul in his writings was not talking about two people's. those stuck in old covenant thinking;
and those given eyes and ears to hear/ believers.
If u take the writings as still applying to us in the same way as they did to those Paul was writing to, then to me that only makes sense. Paul was being brutally persecuted by "a people", not by himself. There was "old covenant" people, and "new covenant" people.
But, for me, I can see the validity of the "internal wheat and tares", and see it as applicable as "one" way of applying or "one layer" of scripture;
but for me, it can be applied this way only if one sees the scriptures not applying to us in the same way as it was occuring then.
Hope that makes sense.
Rom 9:33 even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Mar 8:38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
1Jn 2:28 And now, my little children, abide in him; that, if he shall be manifested, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed.
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Quote from: bobf on January 04, 2009, 10:58:58 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 04, 2009, 03:07:22 PMDear Bob, Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
The parable says nothing to do with the tares "having to repent, repent of doing righteousness, repent of being a child of the devil." Christ also neither said nor even intimated that the tares had to repent of being tares. Neither did I imply that. So, yes, of course this is messed up.
Tony, I didnt say that the parable is about tares repenting and becoming wheat, nor did I say that reaping is repenting. What I said is that if your interpretation of wheat and tares is applied to other gospel scriptures (where people are called on by Jesus to repent) then those scriptures are about tares repenting and becoming wheat.
Do you deny that Jesus called on people doing unrighteousness to repent and do righteousness?
Then if every peson is either tare or wheat then Jesus was either:
[1] calling on wheat to repent
[2] calling on tares to repent
Can you tell me which?
In contrast, who did Paul say was doing unrighteousness when he sinned? Did Paul say his whole self sinned? Or did he say it was "no more I that do it" and "evil is present with me" and "sin that dwelleth in me".
- Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
QuoteIf you are saying that the tare inside of you is the bad part inside of you, how do the angels come and take that bad part out of you and cast it out of the kingdom and burn it up? How does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Like they did for Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4.
- Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones...
Look at the heart of Nebuchadnezzar before he was judged. If you will notice, he was worshipping himself.
- Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Here is the heart of Nebuchadnezzar after he was judged.
- Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Neb's old heart was removed from within him, leaving a new heart in a process of judgment that took seven times to complete. Probably some wailing and gnashing of teeth was going on there. That whole process of judgment was the reaping & burning of tares.
QuoteHow does that bad part of you wheep and gnash its teeth? Will people be schizoid where a part of them will be laughing and the other part of them at the same time be wheeping and gnashing their teeth?
Only if you think Paul was schiziod in Romans 7:19=22 above.
QuoteWhen the angels are sent by the Son of Mankind they are sent at the end of the eon. Some (at least one, Fireinfold) believes that the end of the eon happened when Jesus appeared almost 2000 years ago.
According to 1 Cor 10:11 the ends of the eon were come upon them. I believe this is primarily a spiritual event in the lives of God's people rather than a physical historical event. So I do not believe at all that it happened in 70AD as a singular physical event. Saying it is primarily a spiritual event does not preclude that it is also describing a future singular historical event like you envision.
QuoteIf that is the case, Bob, then almost 2000 years ago Christ already sent in his angels and already did the reaping of all the tares and wheat so you are about 2000 years too late to have the tares separated from the wheat in your body.
- Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
- Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
What did Jesus say to all? "When YE SHALL SEE these things come to pass..."
QuoteThe messengers/angels go into the kingdom and cast out of that kingdom all the snares and all who are doing lawlessness. It says nothing about repentence. It says nothing about the wheat and the tares being in each individual person.
The parable also says nothing about wheat & tares being individual whole people.
Parable Says
tare = children of the wicked one
Scripture Says
children of the wicked one = those who do unrighteousness
Scripture Says
those who do unrighteousness = it is no more I who do it but evil & sin present within me
Therefore
tare = sin & evil within the person, not the whole person
Dear Bob,
You say you don't make the parable be about repentence but in fact you do.
You keep evading the important points I made as well.
The angels do the reaping. The angels do the binding up of the tares, not the disciples as fireinfolding intimates. Angels or messengers. Now please everyone, repeat at least 100 times so maybe you get it:
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,
The angels are not the tares nor the wheat. Neither the tares nor the wheat are called upon to repent. The ones making snares and doing lawlessness are the sons of the wicked one. At the end of this eon those sons are kicked out of the kingdom AT THE END OF THE EON by angels and then the 1000 year eon begins and those sons of the wicked one will not be enjoying any part in that kingdom for the duration thereof.
The culling takes place at the end of the eon. It does not take place when a person repents or, as Bob imagines that it is possible for a tare to become a wheat (is that possible in nature?).
This is all just fancy muddying up by Bob of what is made very clear by Christ.
The point Bob makes about Christ telling people to repent in other passages has not one thing to do with what is going to happen at the end of the eon. Obviously there comes a time in God's plan when the eon ends in which there is no room for repentence. There has come a point in time when God is going to just kick out the workers of evil out of His kingdom by using the angels to do it. So repentence is a moot point.
Please, repeat after me: "end of the eon." "end of the eon." "end of the eon." "end of the eon."
Bob, you bring Paul into the picture which Christ never even in His wildest imagination ever would have done so. So what if the sin which dwelt in Paul caused him to do what he didn't want to do? The point is is that at the end of the eon Christ is going to kick out of His kingdom all making snares and DOING LAWLESSNESS . . . at the end of the eon . . . at the end of the eon . . . at the end of the eon.
Paul was not reaped at the end of the eon. Angels did not reap Paul. If they had before Christ called him he would have been kicked out to the kingdom and would have been weeping and gnashing his teeth for the duration of the 1000 year kingdom.
Does it really make sense to you that Christians are a composite of Satan and Christ? Is Satan in the body of Christ?
You also say that the tares are not the whole person but what is part of the person (from what I gather). Christ said that the tares are the sons of the wicked one. He never said that the tares are a composite part of a person.
And finally, you are taking what Christ said in which He started with a figure and ended with a literal meaning to that figure and you are changing the literal back into a figure which Christ never intended. It is its own interpretation. It needs no further interpretation.
So to sum up my points:
This judgment takes place at the end of the eon.
The sons of the kingdom get to stay in the kingdom.
The sons of the wicked one get kicked out of the kingdom by the angels.
Repentence has no place in this judgment.
Love and sorry if my Scriptural reasoning is giving you folks a headache!
Tony
Quote from: peacemaker on January 05, 2009, 12:17:57 AM
Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.
But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:
peacemaker
I'm not the one with the headache. I said I'm sorry if I give you folks a headache.
The truth hurts (you) and then it sets you free.
Quote from: Zeek on January 05, 2009, 12:54:05 AMHi bob, enjoyed the post.
so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??
Yes, I think Neb. is an example of all people, but at the time that God sends them his word, they clearly hear His word, then they proceed to ignore it.
I don't read anything in Daniel 4 that shows his faith being tried, but in the big picture I get throughout scripture I believe that the faith every person will be tried. All we get in Daniel 4 is that he "looks up" which seems to signify faith, and then God restores Him. It's just not showing that aspect. But scriptures seem to be like that. They don't always tell the whole story in one place. That would be too easy! ;)
QuoteI can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire; and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad). and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith; and those who will go down in shame. what ya think?
Based on how I see things now... I agree there are those two types of people in scripture, but I see those as two types of people that every person "goes through". Saul / Paul seems to exemplify both types. From what I gather from Psalm 107, all the redeemed of the Lord first condemn and rebel against God's word. None of them repent or seek mercy upon hearing the command. Only after God brings them down. I believe everyone sees their house come down. I don't think self-righteousness in the law as the only kind of "house" built on the sand. For exmaple, I think Neb. saw himself as God-like, not righteous or godly.
This is the tentative picture I have in my mind:
1. God sends His word
2. Every person condemns God's word
3. God brings them down
4. Repentance, return to God, seek mercy
5. God has mercy on them and delivers
6. God tries faith / circumcizes heart
Psalm 107 shows 1-5.
Nebuchadnezzar Daniel 4 shows 1-5 but 6 might be buried within the seven times wihtout expounding on it.
Deuteronomy 30 shows 1-6
Lamentations 3 shows 1-6
The NT generally focuses mostly on 1,4,5,6 but I think 2&3 are in there
Also, I think some of the faith trying is enduring the self-inflicted ruin the proceeded repentance.
As far as 70AD I think the was a fulfillment but not THE fulfillment. such that they are done being fulfilled.
Again, tenative... still trying to understand.
Quote from: bobf on January 05, 2009, 04:55:11 AM
Quote from: Zeek on January 05, 2009, 12:54:05 AMHi bob, enjoyed the post.
so do u think that nebach. was an example of "all people", including those "who believe on HIM", and do you see anywhere that his "faith" was tried in fire??
Yes, I think Neb. is an example of all people, but at the time that God sends them his word, they clearly hear His word, then they proceed to ignore it.
I don't read anything in Daniel 4 that shows his faith being tried, but in the big picture I get throughout scripture I believe that the faith every person will be tried. All we get in Daniel 4 is that he "looks up" which seems to signify faith, and then God restores Him. It's just not showing that aspect. But scriptures seem to be like that. They don't always tell the whole story in one place. That would be too easy! ;)
QuoteI can agree that all people are tares, children of wrath at the start; but it does seem to me that the new testament talks of two peoples; ones who were given eyes to see, ears to hear; that repented and believed on HIM ("isaacs" per galatians 4), and who underwent baptism ("drinking of the cup)/ having their faith tried by fire; and there were those who hung to their old mindest, never repented ("ishamels" per gal 4); denied Jesus come in the flesh, refused to give up "hanging" onto self righteousness through the law; and did see their house come crashing down, with NOTHING left, desolate; a perpetual shame. (which I do see as having happened in 70 ad). and if this is a continual "is, was and will be", then there are those today who have been given eyes to see, ears to hear and are going through "baptism" with a trial of their faith; and those who will go down in shame. what ya think?
Based on how I see things now... I agree there are those two types of people in scripture, but I see those as two types of people that every person "goes through". Saul / Paul seems to exemplify both types. From what I gather from Psalm 107, all the redeemed of the Lord first condemn and rebel against God's word. None of them repent or seek mercy upon hearing the command. Only after God brings them down. I believe everyone sees their house come down. I don't think self-righteousness in the law as the only kind of "house" built on the sand. For exmaple, I think Neb. saw himself as God-like, not righteous or godly.
This is the tentative picture I have in my mind:
1. God sends His word
2. Every person condemns God's word
3. God brings them down
4. Repentance, return to God, seek mercy
5. God has mercy on them and delivers
6. God tries faith / circumcizes heart
Psalm 107 shows 1-5.
Nebuchadnezzar Daniel 4 shows 1-5 but 6 might be buried within the seven times wihtout expounding on it.
Deuteronomy 30 shows 1-6
Lamentations 3 shows 1-6
The NT generally focuses mostly on 1,4,5,6 but I think 2&3 are in there
Also, I think some of the faith trying is enduring the self-inflicted ruin the proceeded repentance.
As far as 70AD I think the was a fulfillment but not THE fulfillment. such that they are done being fulfilled.
Again, tenative... still trying to understand.
thanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts.
wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I see this as:
narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).
or
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house
upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was
founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built
his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and
great was the fall of it.
are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,
crushed, ground first,
then converted,
then broken??
thanks
z
Quote from: Zeek on January 05, 2009, 06:17:25 AMthanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts. wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I see this as: narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).
That's the way I aways read it. I have heard an opposite view where falling on the stone is stumbling on the stone and being crushed to powder is the "good" side but I've never studied it and I really have no idea.
QuoteMat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,
I'm not saying anyone has to do go through the wide gate first like it's some kind of requirement. It just seems to me that scriptures say that everyone does. The conditions are set in the verses you quoted. Whoever does not do the will of the Lord his house will fall. So does eveyone not do the will of the Lord to the point that his house falls?
When I read Psalm 107 which is all about the redeemed of the Lord, I see a repetition of houses built on the sand that are falling.
- Psalms 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; 3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
First they rebelled against God's Word. How can their house not fall?
- Psalms 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High.
The Psalm repeats the same story over and over.
#1
- Psalm 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. 6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses. 7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation. 8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! 9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
#2
- Psalm 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. 13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. 15 Oh that men would praise the LORD [for] his goodness, and [for] his wonderful works to the children of men! 16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder
#3
- Psalm 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. 18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death. 19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses. 20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. 21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! 22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
and it goes on with a few more like that.
And then there is this passage about salvation:
- Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
So Christ is transforming things like this:
broken hearted ---> bind up
captives ---> liberty
prison ---> opening
mourning ---> comfort
ashes ---> beauty
spirit of heavines ---> garment of praise
My question is, why are they broken-hearted, captive, in prison, mourning, spirit of heaviness, and in ashes? Pretty clear that they must have reaped what they sowed. Is that the same as saying their house fell?
And in the middle of those bad/good pairs, there is one more bad/good pair:
- acceptable year of the Lord
- day of vengeance of our God
The Acceptable Year of the Lord is what brings the good stuff on the right sie of those pairs. That leaves the Day of Vengeance of our God. What's it doing in that passage? Well, I think it's the reaping, what brings the left side of those pairs. House falling.
Quotecrushed, ground first, then converted, then broken??
Not at all sure which one corresponds to what.
God bless,
Bob
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 02:11:34 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 01:30:44 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on January 05, 2009, 12:17:57 AM
Tony, take two aspirin, it helps thin the blood and will set you free from a headache.
But, you may need to increase the dosage – after the last few posts. :bottlebump:
peacemaker
I'm not the one with the headache. I said I'm sorry if I give you folks a headache.
The truth hurts (you) and then it sets you free.
You dont give me a headache Tony :grin: I get a thousand truths a day they dont hurt cha :grin:
O generations of Vipers who have a fraudulent or venomous intent, reputedly impersonating your own gods without authority – being yourselves past any shame – who has warned you?
"You snakes ...serpents ..."
Tony, although paraphrased for emphasis, it appears that Jesus addressed the cunning, malignant, and wicked one – and their offspring who merely established their own righteousness.
"A dull mind with a devilish tongue are usually found in the same head; given the heart of that person."These people already had what they thought was missing, but misapprehended the truth because of their own deceitful natures.
"...but my people, did not listen to my voice ...even, Israel, ...so then, I let them go on in the stubbornness of their own heart ...that they might walk in their own counsels ...age-abiding!" The venom of that old serpent nature within the passions of men, causes them to commit sins which end in their destruction like the ruins of an ancient temple.
I do not see the denial of the literal, but...
"If our line of vision remained at ground level, we would starve to death in a grocery store."These comments are not meant to inflame, but a wicked heart and the carnal mind – Christ sets on fire, laying it to waste – but saving the man, himself.
peacemaker
BTW Fire,
thank you, for having a heart of prayer! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 12:59:31 AM
Hi Kim ,
you Know I feel Jesus is the standard and set the rule , meausing line
When he told us to pray for our enemies , that was taking the Law to another level [higher standard]
that had not been in effect before , it was eye for eye and tooth for tooth '
thought of this one .....And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
what do you think that means ? to loose on earth and heaven
or bind on earth and heaven ?
Hi ya Rosie
The Keys of HEAVEN( Christ) The Power Given to Unbind that which is Bound via Faith loosed from the Bond
but equally so Seems that Which needs Binding is the the adversary within :icon_flower:
Earth is Man\body
Heaven\Heart mind and soul
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 04, 2009, 08:54:16 PM
QuoteMat 13:41-42 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers (or angels), and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
Isnt it interesing that the Lord who was crucified in Jerusalem (which is "spiritually called" Sodom Egypt Rev 11:8) and seems to connect the furnace to itself?
Duet 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
Isaiah 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.
Furnaces usually have smoke and fire
Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **THESE ARE** A SMOKE in my nose, A FIRE that burneth all the day.
Its interesting a "people" can actually be defined of the Lord as an actually "smoke" and "a fire"?
Cut pieces and a smoking cauldron huh? :grin: Doesnt that sound like Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yet its MEN who gather them and Angels He sends to reap yet sends the disciples?
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Into which fire? Men who are shown as a fire? Or that which sets a man on fire but he can remain completely unaware of it?
Isaiah 42:25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.
So we have furnace, and its reference to Jerusalem and to Egypt Physically called and spiritually called, People who are defined as a smoke and a fire (elements of a working furnace) which is often refered to as a furnace of "affliction" which ties into the tongue and the afflictions of the righteous and hypocrites to boot even why men can gather them.
Adding: so men cast them in the fire and men can pull them out of the fire?
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Good Post Kimmy
Ever Noticed there always seems to be a Double meaning ,
On One hand we see the Smoke of Incence, The (righteous) prayers of the saint ascending as a Pure fragrance
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
1Ki 3:3 And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in
high places. Then The smoke of what you speak of Above , The smoke which BY REASON darkens .
Kinda speaks of Blindness , A darkening of the Sun and Air, maybe this connects with Self righteousness which also Relates to being in darkness \blind.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
A blinding\darkness
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.
Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?
Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:
Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."
Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.
Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.
Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.
Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.
And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.
Can you deal with these issues?
Peace, and apple pie,
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 03:45:11 PM
Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.
Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?
Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:
Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."
Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.
Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.
Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.
Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.
And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.
Can you deal with these issues?
Peace, and apple pie,
Tony
After 31 pages of countless explanations one would THINK that there would have been some progress made on this one issue. But as we've explained before, there are two perspectives from which the observations are being made and until the two become one, there will be another 31 pages written with no better results than the last 31. I have been trying to catch up on all that's been written since I last posted . .but people are posting faster than I can read and rather than set out on the current conversation . . .I thought I'd jump from page 15 . .which is all the further I've gotten so far . . .and through an insert here and work my way up from there.
Every person who's reading and posting on this forum is literally, at a different place in maturity in Christ. And as such, every person is going to see differently. Having been a teenager, I can remember the hard time I often gave my parents due to the fact that they were no where near as smart as I was. But what exposed my immaturity with them was my attitude toward them. I was very condescending and critical of their approach on pretty much every subject. The older I got, the wiser they seemed to become . . .reality obviously was, they didn't "become" any wiser . . .it was my perception that was maturing and changing.
It's the exact same thing here. There is always going to be someone who is more mature in the deeper things of God than I. And there will always be people who are more immature in the things of God than I. Just because I see things differently doesn't mean you are wrong and I am right. It simply means we are of different ages in our walk. Those who are willing to recieve things they don't understand will also be the ones who experience more growth than those who are unwilling to recieve anything beyond what they think they already know.
The wheat and tares topic really seems to illuminate the separation between the adults and teenagers in Christ. The gifts of ministry . .if I'm not mistaken, is for the purpose of the maturity of the saints . .which indicates that God intends for all of us to experience growth. That may sound pretty obvious, but the deeper question that continues to pull at us is, how much am I willing to let go of so that God can rebuild in me things that "He" ordained and not the imaginations of men. For me, growth is not reaffirming what I already think I know. Growth is receiving things that I've never heard and my mind has never comprehended.
What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you? Why is this so bad to consider? Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality. They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.
QuoteThe wheat and tares topic really seems to illuminate the separation between the adults and teenagers in Christ. The gifts of ministry . .if I'm not mistaken, is for the purpose of the maturity of the saints . .which indicates that God intends for all of us to experience growth. That may sound pretty obvious, but the deeper question that continues to pull at us is, how much am I willing to let go of so that God can rebuild in me things that "He" ordained and not the imaginations of men. For me, growth is not reaffirming what I already think I know. Growth is receiving things that I've never heard and my mind has never comprehended.
good point, i guess without the ""bad"" we wouldnt know ""good"" without darkness we wouldnt know light, ETC.
God has a good reason to let the tarres grow with the wheat, i see:
1Cr 11:19 For there
must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
thats one way to look at it i guess, and the many layers of scripture stand true!
QuoteWhat if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you? Why is this so bad to consider? Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality. They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.
YUP, again can not it apply to us individually as well a corperate? yes i do in fact see ""tarres"" being bundled up NOW. even in my own life.
God bless
chuckt
Nathan,
Your comments reminded me of something. I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else. Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.
I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be. I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually. and to me, that is a good thing.
I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them. To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death. I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.
Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.
Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 03:45:11 PM
Dear Bobf and fireinfolding,
First Fireinfolding:
If the eon ended when Christ died then are you prepared to state that all of Matthew 24 and 25 occurred just before He died? And are you prepared to state that all of Revelation chapters 1 to 19 inclusive occurred prior to His death? The reason I ask is that all those things must occur prior to the eon ending which Christ spoke of.
The separating of the wheat and tares occurrs when the eon is ending as well.
Bobf, concerning the last sentence above, it seems you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that statement.
You seem to think that Paul went through a change from a tare to a wheat and that (as far as I can tell from what you wrote) this is what Christ was really getting at when He spoke on the wheat and the tares?
Yet the judgment spoken of occurrs at the conclusion of the eon:
Mat 13:40 Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon."
Why, oh why, Bob is it so difficult for you to understand Matthew 13:40? I am trying to understand how you think on this matter and for the life of me I cannot understand you.
Furthermore Christ interpreted what the tares and the wheat are. You don't interpret the interpretation with a further interpretation. The interpretation is its own interpretation.
Furthermore, the angels are the ones who kick out of the kingdom all snares and those doing lawlessness. This is a judgment. It has nothing to do with anyone changing from a tare to a wheat.
Furthermore, if the tare is in the flesh then the tare was never separated from Paul because Paul stated that it was a present reality he was still dealing with after being saved.
And we, who still have this flesh to contend with in which sin is inherrent have noticed that if the flesh is the tare then it has not been separated from us as evidenced here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
Again, dear Bob, the separating is done by angels, not humans. The separating is done at the conclusion of the eon, not during the length of the eon. The separating is an all at the same time event, not a one at a time event.
Can you deal with these issues?
Peace, and apple pie,
Tony
Hi Tony N
I have read your post to Fire and bobf ,,
and I am going to ask you bro , have you considered Peter , my prime example of a tare , Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out
being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
could a tare be the things of men by definition , Jesus also called in John 4 them sons of the wicked one your father the devil ...
because of the works that they did were not of faith nor of God , but men and seeking mens approval For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Cr 3:21
Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cr 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.
now PETER though experience gained knowlege of God and told us not to be surpised by the firey trials that come upon us , he suffered loss but gained be saved by all that he suffered , his tares [ thoughts and actions that offend , Jesus was plain about calling satan an offense , right there in peter !! , the things and works that be of men] were dissolved in the Fire God is a consuming Fire ..
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2009, 05:02:59 PM
What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you? Why is this so bad to consider? Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality. They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.
Dear Nathan,
Thanks for your words concerning this matter.
And what if the tares are the ungodly nature in you . . . and wheat is the godliness in You? you ask? If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separating.
I am sorry, friend, but part of me is not a part of Satan. And whether we of the nations make snares or do lawlessness, grace superabounds unlike Israel, who, when Christ returns, will be judged by Christ and He will cast out of His kingdom all in Israel who make snares and all doing lawlessness.
It is partly a matter of maturity and partly a matter of unbelief.
Jesus never said that when He comes and sends the angels to cast the bad out of his Kingdom that the sons of the kingdom are the exact same ones as the sons of Satan.
Neither did He ever say that the sons of the kingdom is the good in our flesh and the sons of Satan is the bad in our flesh.
The kingdom of heaven was among the Jews while Jesus was among them.
In Matt.3:2 the kingdom of the heavens was near. If it was in them why was it near but not in them when John the Baptist came?
This talks about those entering into the kingdom of the heavens, not the kingdom of the heavens entering into them:
Mat 5:20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
If the kingdom was already in them why did Jesus teach His disciples to pray:
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also."
And after Christ came and went the disciples were still looking forward to entering the kingdom:
Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the kingdom of God."
So, friend, when Christ comes back to set up His kingdom when the eon ends, He is going to judge Israel for judgment begins in the house of God. He will send forth His angels and take out of Israel all who make snares and who do lawlessness.
If the sons of Satan stands for the bad in our flesh, how are the angels going to kick that part of us out of the kingdom?
Another bad problem I see with not believing Jesus when He Himself interprets to us what the wheat and the tares are is that when we make fanciful esoteric statements about His interpretation it disqualifies us from having a sound mind. It is not spiritual. It is unbelief.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
Nathan,
Your comments reminded me of something. I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else. Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.
I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be. I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually. and to me, that is a good thing.
I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them. To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death. I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.
Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.
Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.
Hi Paul , my brother it does help ! Gods Spirit is teaching us , the ways of God , I can know this with a clean heart to speak it , your compassion towards others is endearing , I also feel the same as God puts these poor souls and some times stumbling blocks in our path so we will turn to God only for our help and needs , I can see your humble spirit many times doing the works of God and am blessed to know you and love you and call you my brother in Christ .. God be with you and bless you and yours always in Him ... rose
Dear Tony N ,
we have much to learn , Like Peter , he spoke with great confidence
but when tested found his lack , it was Jesus who saved Him and it was the knowledge he gained by trial and error , them experiences changed him and made him ready and able worker to do Gods will and feed the sheep of Jesus sheepfold
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Peter did loose his life and found Life in Christ so much more than he ever had doing satans bidding the things / works of mens hands
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
Hi Tony N
I have read your post to Fire and bobf ,,
and I am going to ask you bro , have you considered Peter , my prime example of a tare , Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out
being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
could a tare be the things of men by definition , Jesus also called in John 4 them sons of the wicked one your father the devil ...
because of the works that they did were not of faith nor of God , but men and seeking mens approval For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.
After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.
QuoteEvery person who's reading and posting on this forum is literally, at a different place in maturity in Christ
Hi Nathan , this is it in a nutshell bro ! you said it, THE
Testimony of
Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy mans wisdom is the stumbling block of all offenses to the Cross of Christ ..........
And I, brethren, when I came to you,
came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words
of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit
we speak wisdom among them that are perfect:
yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 1Cr 2:7 But
we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even]
the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Cr 2:8 Which
none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
Nathan,
Your comments reminded me of something. I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else. Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.
I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be. I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually. and to me, that is a good thing.
I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them. To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death. I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.
Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.
Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.
Alas Paul, you've hit the nail on the head. I've grown much over the last couple months just from being a part of this conversational family. My desire is not to prove my points of view, but it is to know Truth on an intimate level and set as many free who are willing to let themselves be filled with whatever God pours through me into them. It's a give and take. It excites me to share what I see, it matures me to accept what I don't. I'm not saying everyone should "agree" with every thing. I'm saying every thing should be received. Agreement has nothing to do with it. All agreement is, is my mind accepting what's being said. Unfortunately, for me anyway, my mind is my biggest problem.
It does play a huge role, but there's always an order to it. My mind is the womb of me. When spirit truths are planted there . .so long as I don't reject them, they will take root and grow . .and birth life in my understanding. But if my mind rejects them, they become still-born and all my mind birthed was death. There seems to be a growing number of new people (new to me) that are becoming engaged in the converstations that say things that causes my spirit to leap within me. My mind has trouble catching up, but I'm training it to shutup until it catches up . .in the mean time, let the spirit do it's work with what's being said. This is the area that always needs work and a good share of grace and mercy . .both from God and myself.
One other thing about this tare and wheat issue I'd like to throw out there. This picture is one of a field . .not one of a garden. The field is me . . I am a generation . . . so you could say the field is a generation of time. But I also think that you can break it down to segments of time within a generation . .kind of like "rows" of corn and wheat. The reason I point this out is because, like wheat, there are things in us that "come into" maturity. I believe the things that are then harvested and stored are things in us that God planted, grew, and harvested and the barn is his house (In my Father's house are many rooms . . .). Scripture speaks of storing things that are not eaten by moths yes? I believe those are the things that my field produced and God had already harvested . . .even though my life is not yet over . .which would mean . .like wheat . . . you don't just plant it once . .you have to replant it year after year. eon after eon. . .experience after experience . .from glory to glory . . .
Where as in a garden, you plant the tree one time and without any further required labor, the tree produces fruit of it's own accord. The fruit can be harvested every year, but the tree is planted only once. So . . . here's the question . . .because of the fact that 6 days were created in order for there to be a 7th . .and our goal is to enter into that Sabbath rest . .yes?? Then can we not make the jump and say that it is the elders in Christ who find the place of rest in him where there is no more mindless laboring for something that is given freely? Would you rather continue living as a field of wheat? Or . . .would you rather return back to the original garden from which you came?
For me, natural reasoning = days of labor = field of wheat and tares.
Spiritual revelation = Sabbath Rest = Garden of Spiritual kingdom manifesting within me.
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 06:35:52 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
Hi Tony N
I have read your post to Fire and bobf ,,
and I am going to ask you bro , have you considered Peter , my prime example of a tare , Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out
being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
could a tare be the things of men by definition , Jesus also called in John 4 them sons of the wicked one your father the devil ...
because of the works that they did were not of faith nor of God , but men and seeking mens approval For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.
After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.
Hi Tony , I cannot believe you said that!
Every thing and every example Jesus gave us Tony is excellent for our learning and gaining experience , Jesus Christ testimony /WITNESS
IS the Spirit of prophecy , the revealing of the things hidden of God though the ages [eions] to now , NOW is the time to rise up out of sleep
and awake unto the righteouness of God , not all have this knowledge
this Knowledge and Wisdom is the POWER OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST all that Jesus said and done
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 06:47:24 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 06:35:52 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
Hi Tony N
I have read your post to Fire and bobf ,,
and I am going to ask you bro , have you considered Peter , my prime example of a tare , Peter was by the way to be sifted like wheat , that means a good thrashing ,, wheat is trashed out
being that Jesus called him satan , because he was a stumblingblock to Jesus and mindful of the things of men and not God
could a tare be the things of men by definition , Jesus also called in John 4 them sons of the wicked one your father the devil ...
because of the works that they did were not of faith nor of God , but men and seeking mens approval For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Dear rosered, it is a moot point you bring up concerning Peter.
The point Jesus was making about the tares and the wheat is that when this eon ends He is going to send in His angels and cast out of His kingdom all who make snares and all who do lawlessness. Period.
This is a judging of Israel. He is going to kick out of His kingdom those bad people when this eon ends.
After He does this He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren (Matthew 25:31-46). The goat nations get eonian chastening outside the kingdom. The sheep nations enter into the joys of the kingdom.
The sons of the adversary get cast out of the kingdom and must endure chastening along with the bad nations.
Hi Tony , I cannot believe you said that!
Every thing and every example Jesus gave us Tony is excellent for our learning and gaining experience , Jesus Christ testimony /WITNESS
IS the Spirit of prophecy , the revealing of the things hidden of God though the ages [eions] to now , NOW is the time to rise up out of sleep
and awake unto the righteouness of God , not all have this knowledge
this Knowledge and Wisdom is the POWER OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST all that Jesus said and done
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
But Rosered, I have learned from what Jesus said.
He said that at the end of this eon He is going to judge those in Israel and kick out of that kingdom, by His angels, all the people who make snares and do lawlessness.
Then in the same book, Matthew records in 25:31-46 Jesus saying that when He returns He is also going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation.
What is so difficult to learn about that? The only difficult thing is just believing Jesus.
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 06:22:39 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2009, 05:02:59 PM
What if tares is the ungodly nature in you . . .and wheat is the godliness in you? Why is this so bad to consider? Romans 1:20 states that God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths . . . the whole purpose for natural explanations, is to reveal spiritual reality. They're not meant to be embraced as the end of the road . .but they are to be applied as patterns of things unseen . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation . .it is IN you . . .as are the wheat . .as are the tares.
Dear Nathan,
Thanks for your words concerning this matter.
And what if the tares are the ungodly nature in you . . . and wheat is the godliness in You? you ask? If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separating.
I am sorry, friend, but part of me is not a part of Satan. And whether we of the nations make snares or do lawlessness, grace superabounds unlike Israel, who, when Christ returns, will be judged by Christ and He will cast out of His kingdom all in Israel who make snares and all doing lawlessness.
It is partly a matter of maturity and partly a matter of unbelief.
Jesus never said that when He comes and sends the angels to cast the bad out of his Kingdom that the sons of the kingdom are the exact same ones as the sons of Satan.
Neither did He ever say that the sons of the kingdom is the good in our flesh and the sons of Satan is the bad in our flesh.
The kingdom of heaven was among the Jews while Jesus was among them.
In Matt.3:2 the kingdom of the heavens was near. If it was in them why was it near but not in them when John the Baptist came?
This talks about those entering into the kingdom of the heavens, not the kingdom of the heavens entering into them:
Mat 5:20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
If the kingdom was already in them why did Jesus teach His disciples to pray:
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also."
And after Christ came and went the disciples were still looking forward to entering the kingdom:
Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the kingdom of God."
So, friend, when Christ comes back to set up His kingdom when the eon ends, He is going to judge Israel for judgment begins in the house of God. He will send forth His angels and take out of Israel all who make snares and who do lawlessness.
If the sons of Satan stands for the bad in our flesh, how are the angels going to kick that part of us out of the kingdom?
Another bad problem I see with not believing Jesus when He Himself interprets to us what the wheat and the tares are is that when we make fanciful esoteric statements about His interpretation it disqualifies us from having a sound mind. It is not spiritual. It is unbelief.
Tony,
In your quest to disprove spiritual things by embracing your literal points of view, you mix in spiritual with your literal . . . it's no wonder you struggle so much with us.
You argue
If that is the case, then the angels are to be sent at the end of the eon and cast out of the kingdom all who make snares and are doing lawlessness. We must wait till the end of the eon. We must wait for the angels to do the separatingYou're trying to take my analogy and apply your literalism to it. I never stated that at the end of the eon . . which I guess you're implying that would be at the end of my life on earth . .. angels would come and separate. You've rejected this from the beginning. And until you reverse that order, you're never going to see anything else other than what you're mind has already convinced you to be true.
So let me ask you this . . . do you know all things? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your truthful answer here would be "no". And "if" that be the case, then you are also admitting the POSSIBILITY that there may be things your mind doesn't fully know about this either. Is your mind so vast that it can stand against what it doesn't comprehend and claim that what it doesn't know is false?
Scriptures say what does the separating . .. let it interpret itself. Your mind is envisioning winged spirit beings sweeping through the earth and herding up people like cattle at the slaughter. But that's just not what Scripture is saying . .it's saying messengers . . . and for me, it's not the messenger but the message the messenger is bringing . . which Ephesians states as the Word of God that does the separating . . what does it separate? It separates soul from spirit . . .life from death . . .wheat from tare.
If you don't see it the same way, that's absolutely fine, but to imply that anyone who sees what you don't are wrong, for me is a slippery road to choose.
Tony,
I did not put repentance into the parable. No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance. Ok?
I raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are. It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.
My objection was this.
You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born. The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon. The parable spans time from planting to harvest. During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold. One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness. That event is NOT described in the parable. The parable is NOT about that event. But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.
1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare
Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness
Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?
Please don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc. My objection is very simple. My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I never said Paul was tare turning into wheat. It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!
1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)
Each step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step. I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.
As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.
According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat
Your interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.
That is my one and only objection Tony. It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.
I have not seen any answer to that objection.
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
Nathan,
Your comments reminded me of something. I have had what I believe to be spiritual awareness and it is very hard to try to explain it to someone else. Try as we may, the only way to even begin is to try to come up with some analogy with physical things and they are simply inadequate.
I do agree that everyone is at a different point and that is how God intends for it to be. I do not say this in a negative way, but 31 pages of this topic is about people desparate to either know greater things spiritually or desparate to try to help someone else understand what they see spiritually. and to me, that is a good thing.
I have met two people recently that I know God put in my path to help, it excites me to no end, and my enthusiasm cannot be conveyed to these people without appearing like some wierdo, it is very difficult for me to put the brakes on and be patient in a developing relationship with them. To me I just want to jump in with both feet and love them to death. I am finding that few people can understand why and I am not sure I have the ability to explain it.
Indeed, it is not about me being better than them, it is desperatly hoping God shows them the same freedom.
Not sure if this will help the thread any or not.
Hi Paul , my brother it does help ! Gods Spirit is teaching us , the ways of God , I can know this with a clean heart to speak it , your compassion towards others is endearing , I also feel the same as God puts these poor souls and some times stumbling blocks in our path so we will turn to God only for our help and needs , I can see your humble spirit many times doing the works of God and am blessed to know you and love you and call you my brother in Christ .. God be with you and bless you and yours always in Him ... rose
My dear friend Rose,
thank you.
this is weird to me
because Jesus Christ is a stumbling block and ROCK of offense
now hands / works of men and sinners are an offense to Him ?
look at how they are opposite forces ? its the same word offend that are taken out of the kingdom and are burned by the angels / messengers of God
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Strong's G4625 - skandalon
σκάνδαλον
Transliteration
skandalon
Pronunciation
skä'n-dä-lon (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
probably from a derivative of G2578
TDNT Reference
7:339,1036
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
a) a trap, snare
b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Strong's G4625 - skandalon
σκάνδαλον
Transliteration
skandalon
Pronunciation
skä'n-dä-lon (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
probably from a derivative of G2578
TDNT Reference
7:339,1036
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
a) a trap, snare
b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin
It is the same word and interpretation :mshock: :icon_flower:
seems that the works of the flesh are the dead works that them tares do and are so by called Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.
now God knows we are in a wicked world run by sinners and works of mens hands and that the wisdom of this world is what God allows in His longsuffering towards us and that all should repent and be saved
this would be the end of the world for us , them works being burned up
and all things NEW !!!!!
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 08:48:55 PM
Chuckt adds
Quote1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)
Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ
Sure looks like he did this...
2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.
2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well
I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS :grin:
Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also
and then look here...
Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.
God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him :bigGrin: Love that!
Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved) Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?
For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved" In order to see I am approved, I study. I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2009, 08:59:19 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 08:48:55 PM
Chuckt adds
Quote1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)
Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ
Sure looks like he did this...
2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.
2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well
I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS :grin:
Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also
and then look here...
Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.
God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him :bigGrin: Love that!
Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved) Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?
For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved" In order to see I am approved, I study. I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.
I dont think thats What Kims Implying Nat , More an
Understanding of Dividing the FORM from the Reality ,Old man New man.
Study Is the same word used here as Labour or endeavour
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any
man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the
dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 09:04:14 PM
I wanted to say Amen to Nathan and Roses earlier posts awesome! :thumbsup:
Rose would a stumbling block be the same as a snare and an offence? Because I read in proverbs (I believe) that the fear of MAN brings "a snare" and when you look at Peter it was his FEAR of the circumcision that caused him not to walk in the truth (which is as an upright stake as you showed me once) and their table being a stumbling block and a snare as well as their BACKS being BENT always would indicate that which was not "UPright". It speaks of the OFFENSE of the cross CEASING in regards to what appears contrary to the circumcision. Jesus also added in (paraphrasing) "Ye are mindful of the things OF MEN and not God" and thats part of the "offence" and stumbling block which appears to reemerge with Peter in Acts and more specifically speaks to him fearing "the circumcision" or the very fear of men that brings a snare spoken in the OT but you can get glimpses of what it can pertain to in regards to the cross.
Not sure just a thought :HeartThrob:
Good thoughts Kim ! :HeartThrob:the Cross being the upright stake
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Yes I can see this sis , the Cross being of no effect by their own wisdom :mshock:
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter,
Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. savourest phroneō 5426 greek
not the things of God savourest
1) to have understanding, be wise
2) to feel, to think
a) to have an opinion of one's self, think of one's self, to be modest, not let one's opinion (though just) of himself exceed the bounds of modesty
b) to think or judge what one's opinion is
c) to be of the same mind i.e. agreed together, cherish the same views, be harmonious
3) to direct one's mind to a thing, to seek, to strive for
a) to seek one's interest or advantage
b) to be of one's party, side with him (in public affairs) :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 09:48:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 05, 2009, 09:12:46 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2009, 08:59:19 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 08:48:55 PM
Chuckt adds
Quote1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies (( tarres )) among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
You can see this in a person being "approved" and made manifest (or evident to Paul)
Romans 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ
Sure looks like he did this...
2Titus 2:15 **Study** to shew thyself **approved unto God** a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, **rightly dividing** the word of truth.
2Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
Paul appears to "reccognize" those who become manifest telling us we too will reccognize them as well
I thought it was KOOL that Heresies are there to "prove US" thats why WE are to PROVE ALL THINGS :grin:
Heresies are also listed as a manifest work of THE FLESH. when you look elsewhere it speaks of false prophets "among the people" as there was then so now also
and then look here...
Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath SPOKEN a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
I always sorta wondered if this indicated being handed over to Satan for the destruction of THE FLESH (because THATS what heresies are OF) given "being handed over" (( also )) pertained to what was BEING TAUGHT and it was considered "Blaspheme" which I see as speaking AGAINST (in this regard against the truth). Manifesting as a teaching regarding the Ressurection (of particular concern because it over threw the "hope"). This being handing over was to TEACH them not to do that. Could be wrong but it appears to fit.
God PROVETH YOU to see if you love Him and will CLEAVE unto Him :bigGrin: Love that!
Hey Kim, just curious . . .you've quoted Titus several times now (study to show thyself approved) Are you saying that one justifies one's self when one studies the Bible?
For me, I've found that particular verse to say "Study, and you will find you are approved" In order to see I am approved, I study. I ponder, my spirit "hovers" over spiritual things as the experience of reproduction releases his life seeds in my womb (woman) of understanding.
I dont think thats What Kims Implying Nat , More an Understanding of Dividing the FORM from the Reality ,Old man New man.
Study Is the same word used here as Labour or endeavour
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Amen another good one to confirm what you showed as study and labour is somewhere in there where it speaks of those who labour in the word and doctrine. The division is everywhere between the covenants, two trees, the old man and new man, soul and Spirit, and even how his words are used. I know I used to see only physical things and try to compare them to other physical things, then physical things with spiritual things then spiritual things with spiritual but the Spirit teaches us and given we are natural by nature His help in making us able to receive the Spiritual is needed because we cant without Him but its an "exercise" and the more you exercise the stronger you become and your progress should also become evident. The more you give yourself over to something the more of a master you become at a thing, but not just in knowledge (or doctrine) but in hearing and doing and its the doing part I am always working on, just speaking for myself :grin: I havent "arrived" but the goal "seeing Him as He is and being like Him in this world" is
I gotta a VERY long way to go :grin:
so is this a mixing of old and new wine?? Is this man's destiny, to be between two trees till their physical death??
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 10:04:15 PM
Zeek I dont understand your question a mans "destiny" between the two covenants?
i'll try another way,
so is all of our life a struggle between the old man and the new man?? always striving for something we can't reach??
hope deferred makes the heart sick.
but
today
is the day of salvation???
ok, just this part of your statement confused me
"I havent "arrived" but the goal "seeing Him as He is and being like Him in this world" is
I gotta a VERY long way to go "
so is this goal achievable?
Quote from: bobf on January 05, 2009, 07:56:26 PM
Tony,
QuoteI did not put repentance into the parable. No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance. Ok?
O.K. Then how do (according to you) the sons of the wicked one become sons of the kingdom? or How does (according to you) the tare leave the human?
You state that while the sons of the wicked grow along side the sons of the kingdom that Jesus was telling them to repent. You bring repentence up again and again further down in your post here.
QuoteI raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are. It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.
My objection was this.
You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born. The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon. The parable spans time from planting to harvest. During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold. One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness. That event is NOT described in the parable. The parable is NOT about that event. But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.
But the parable does place all at the end of the eon. Jesus Himself said that at the end of the eon that He would have the angels go forth and take out the tares from the kingdom (not from people's bodies). Jesus is the One Who said that the wheat and tares are people. A son of Abraham is a person who does what Abraham did: believe God. It is not a concept which believes God. It is not a spirit which believes God.
Jesus is the One Who said that "the wheat, these are the
sons of the kingdom. The tares are the sons of the wicked one. Jesus was a son. The sons of Israel (Israel being the kingdom of Israel) are they literal sons?
1Thess. 5:5 "for you are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness." Was Paul telling the Thessalonians that they were not really people since light and day cannot really beget sons?
Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
Quote1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare
Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness.
Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?
Tony's reply:
See what I mean? You say repentence is not a part of what Jesus said in the parable yet you keep bringing up repentence as if it is germain to the parable. As a matter of fact, Jesus quit telling the people to repent before He brought this parable up. He quit trying to change them. He acclaimed His Father as the Lord of heaven and earth for He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto minors (Matt.11:25) and He told His disciples who asked why He speaks to the people in parables that it was so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see so that fulfilled would be Isaiah's prophecy (Matt.13:13). Notice that it was right after Jesus told them the reason He spoke in parables is that He spoke of the parable of the tares and wheat? He was leaving them to be blind and deaf. He was letting the tares grow alongside the wheat. He was not letting anyone interfere with their growing together. So the sons of the kingdom would have to grow up with the sons of the wicked one without interferrence until the end of the eon. Then and only then are they to be interferred with, and that by angels. I realize you don't want to talk about the end of the eon and the angels reaping but it is germain to the parable. Maybe you don't get it because, well, Jesus gave the reason for giving parables? They are then, at the end of the eon, as a whole, reaped by the angels. The sons who make snares and do lawlessness are kicked out of the kingdom to live among the nations. Therefore both your numbers 1 and 2 are false above.
In the parable Jesus never called on the wheat nor the tares to repent of being what they were. I realize you said He told them to repend when they were planted and growing but that is not part of the parable and should not be imported into the parable.
QuotePlease don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc. My objection is very simple. My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.
Tony's reply: You therefore object to what Jesus said. He said what the tares and wheat were. The sons of the kingdom are not the same sons as the sons of the wicked one. Did Jesus muddy the waters by bringing up the end of the eon, the angels, etc? You just have a hard time fitting those things into your untennable scenario.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QuoteI never said Paul was tare turning into wheat. It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!
1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)
Friend, I say this in all humility, you are not making sense. In your number 2 above John said "
whoever . . . ." That "whoever" is a person. He did not way "whatever doeth . . . but "whoever doeth." It is the "whomever" is the chold of the Adversary. John did not say that "whatever in the person is a child of the Adversary." Therefore your number 3 does not work with numbers 1 and 2.
Also, how does sin and evil in a person repent? I can understand a person repenting, but sin and evil? That, friend, is just not right.
QuoteEach step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step. I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.
As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.
According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat
In the parable no one is called on to repent!
QuoteYour interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.
That is my one and only objection Tony. It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.
I have not seen any answer to that objection.
I hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
QuoteLikewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
WHAT is this Light and DAY referring to Tony?
When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?
Just thought to ask
:icon_flower:
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be
without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then
are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate,
bastard2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and
sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit,
then appeared the tares also. 1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat
again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
:thumbsup: , A good thrashing is GOOD for Him :icon_flower:
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and
shalt deliver his soul from hell. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on January 05, 2009, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 05, 2009, 07:56:26 PM
Tony,
QuoteI did not put repentance into the parable. No symbol in the parable or explanation of the parable is about repentance. Ok?
O.K. Then how do (according to you) the sons of the wicked one become sons of the kingdom? or How does (according to you) the tare leave the human?
You state that while the sons of the wicked grow along side the sons of the kingdom that Jesus was telling them to repent. You bring repentence up again and again further down in your post here.
QuoteI raised basically one objection to your interpretation of the parable. That objection has nothing to do with when the eon ends or who the reapers are. It only has to do with what wheat / children of the kingdom and the tares / children of the devil refer to.
My objection was this.
You say that the wheat & tares are people, elected or not-elected before they were born. The parable does not take place ALL at the end of the eon. The parable spans time from planting to harvest. During that time span, events described in elsewhere in scripture unfold. One such event was Christ calling on people to repent of doing unrighteousness. That event is NOT described in the parable. The parable is NOT about that event. But that event DOES take place sometime within the setting & time span of the entire parable.
But the parable does place all at the end of the eon. Jesus Himself said that at the end of the eon that He would have the angels go forth and take out the tares from the kingdom (not from people's bodies). Jesus is the One Who said that the wheat and tares are people. A son of Abraham is a person who does what Abraham did: believe God. It is not a concept which believes God. It is not a spirit which believes God.
Jesus is the One Who said that "the wheat, these are the sons of the kingdom. The tares are the sons of the wicked one. Jesus was a son. The sons of Israel (Israel being the kingdom of Israel) are they literal sons?
1Thess. 5:5 "for you are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness." Was Paul telling the Thessalonians that they were not really people since light and day cannot really beget sons?
Likewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
Quote1. During the time frame of the parable, Jesus called on people to repent
2. You say each person is either wheat or tare
Therefore one or both of these is true:
1. Jesus called on wheat to repent of unrighteousness
2. Jeuss called on tares to repent of unrighteousness.
Can you tell me which or explain why neither would be true?
Tony's reply:
See what I mean? You say repentence is not a part of what Jesus said in the parable yet you keep bringing up repentence as if it is germain to the parable. As a matter of fact, Jesus quit telling the people to repent before He brought this parable up. He quit trying to change them. He acclaimed His Father as the Lord of heaven and earth for He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto minors (Matt.11:25) and He told His disciples who asked why He speaks to the people in parables that it was so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see so that fulfilled would be Isaiah's prophecy (Matt.13:13). Notice that it was right after Jesus told them the reason He spoke in parables is that He spoke of the parable of the tares and wheat? He was leaving them to be blind and deaf. He was letting the tares grow alongside the wheat. He was not letting anyone interfere with their growing together. So the sons of the kingdom would have to grow up with the sons of the wicked one without interferrence until the end of the eon. Then and only then are they to be interferred with, and that by angels. I realize you don't want to talk about the end of the eon and the angels reaping but it is germain to the parable. Maybe you don't get it because, well, Jesus gave the reason for giving parables? They are then, at the end of the eon, as a whole, reaped by the angels. The sons who make snares and do lawlessness are kicked out of the kingdom to live among the nations. Therefore both your numbers 1 and 2 are false above.
In the parable Jesus never called on the wheat nor the tares to repent of being what they were. I realize you said He told them to repend when they were planted and growing but that is not part of the parable and should not be imported into the parable.
QuotePlease don't muddy the waters with umteen other issues such as angels vs men, reaping being repetance, etc. My objection is very simple. My objection is WHY I don't believe the tares & wheat are whole people.
Tony's reply: You therefore object to what Jesus said. He said what the tares and wheat were. The sons of the kingdom are not the same sons as the sons of the wicked one. Did Jesus muddy the waters by bringing up the end of the eon, the angels, etc? You just have a hard time fitting those things into your untennable scenario.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QuoteI never said Paul was tare turning into wheat. It is precisely tares turning into wheat that I am avoiding!
1. Evil and sin were dwelling in Paul and doing the unrighteousness, not Paul (Romans 7:20-22)
2. Whoever doeth unrighteousness is a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)
3. Evil and sin in Paul was a Child of the Devil (from 1 & 2) and common sense tells you these were OF the devil, not OF God.
4. Evil and sin in Paul was a Tare (from 3 & Matthew 13:38)
Friend, I say this in all humility, you are not making sense. In your number 2 above John said "whoever . . . ." That "whoever" is a person. He did not way "whatever doeth . . . but "whoever doeth." It is the "whomever" is the chold of the Adversary. John did not say that "whatever in the person is a child of the Adversary." Therefore your number 3 does not work with numbers 1 and 2.
Also, how does sin and evil in a person repent? I can understand a person repenting, but sin and evil? That, friend, is just not right.
QuoteEach step above follows from scripture and / or the previous step. I am not figuratively interpreting "children of the devil" I am using 1 John 3:10 as the scriptural definition.
As of Paul writing Romans 7, Paul was still awaiting being "delivered" or "set free" from the situation of evil & sin dwelling in him.
According to my interpretation:
- the wheat are never called on to repent
- the tares are never called on to repent
- each plant only bares its own fruit
- there are no tares turning into wheat
In the parable no one is called on to repent!
QuoteYour interpretation implies that:
- people (includes wheat) were called upon by Jesus to repent of doing unrighteosness
- wheat were doing unrighteousness
- wheat were baring the wrong kind of fruit for wheat
etc.
That is my one and only objection Tony. It has nothing to do with who reaps or when.
I have not seen any answer to that objection.
I hope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
:bdh: :bdh: :bdh: :bdh: :bdh:
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat
again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
Again, rosered, it is a moot point you bring up. The sons of the wicked one are the humans who make snares and do lawlessness. Those sons, at the end of the eon will the angels kick out of the kingdom. The sons of the kingdom remain.
The thrashing is not part of the parable. The part of the parable is that the tares cast out of the kingdom by the angels. One can only go so far with a parable. So the thrashing has no part in this parable. Christ didn't bring it up and neither should we.
Also chastening and thrashing are not the same thing.
Sorry.
Tony
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 05, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
QuoteLikewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
WHAT is this Light and DAY referring to Tony?
When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?
Just thought to ask
:icon_flower:
Exactly "children OF THE DAY" the gates will not be *SHUT* BY DAY :grin: ((Behold)) **I** set before thee an *OPEN* door... Children of THE DAY are "no more of the night"
And there shall be no night "there"
He's all THAT then some :thumbsup:
amen !
Pauls word and Christ Spirit confirms this in us right now!!
Therefore seeing we have this ministry,
as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2Cr 4:2 But
have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2Cr 4:3 But if
our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Cr 4:4 In whom
the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2Cr 4:5 For
we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2Cr 4:6 For God,
who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Cr 4:7 But
we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the
excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2Cr 4:8 [We are]
troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair; 2Cr 4:9
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Cr 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 2Cr 4:11 For
we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 2Cr 4:12
So then death worketh in us, but life in you. wow , how profound this really is ! Thank you Jesus for the opportunity and witness to become so real in our lives and in our deaths!
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 12:01:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat
again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
Again, rosered, it is a moot point you bring up. The sons of the wicked one are the humans who make snares and do lawlessness. Those sons, at the end of the eon will the angels kick out of the kingdom. The sons of the kingdom remain.
The thrashing is not part of the parable. The part of the parable is that the tares cast out of the kingdom by the angels. One can only go so far with a parable. So the thrashing has no part in this parable. Christ didn't bring it up and neither should we.
Also chastening and thrashing are not the same thing.
Sorry.
Tony
Oh Tony , Tony we are compared to wheat and tares , chaff we are also compared to sheep and trees and goats and so many others things , wheat is thrashed ..............
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and
he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. it is all so symbolic in nature , may the Lord open your mind bro to the great things of God , to See Him as He is , Oh to love Him and to love Him is to desire His Heart ........... God love you Tony
QuoteOh Tony , Tony we are compared to wheat and tares , chaff we are also compared to sheep and trees and goats and so many others things , wheat is thrashed ..............
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Amen Rose. :icon_flower:
Mat 13:40 As therefore the
tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
maybe the nature of Chaff and the Tare be Different , therefore Burnt in ANOTHER FIRE...
But its Probably MOOT....
Blessings Brother Tony :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on January 06, 2009, 12:09:19 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 12:01:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat
again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
Again, rosered, it is a moot point you bring up. The sons of the wicked one are the humans who make snares and do lawlessness. Those sons, at the end of the eon will the angels kick out of the kingdom. The sons of the kingdom remain.
The thrashing is not part of the parable. The part of the parable is that the tares cast out of the kingdom by the angels. One can only go so far with a parable. So the thrashing has no part in this parable. Christ didn't bring it up and neither should we.
Also chastening and thrashing are not the same thing.
Sorry.
Tony
Oh Tony , Tony we are compared to wheat and tares , chaff we are also compared to sheep and trees and goats and so many others things , wheat is thrashed ..............
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
it is all so symbolic in nature , may the Lord open your mind bro to the great things of God , to See Him as He is , Oh to love Him and to love Him is to desire His Heart ........... God love you Tony
Dear rosered,
Again it is you who needs your mind opened up to what the Lord is trying to show, not me. I'm blessed just fine, thank you.
Now then, let's stick with the thread rather than praying a prayer for me that makes you look oh so much more spiritual.
You once again have improperly used a verse to try to make your point.
The Matthew 3:13 passage is totally different than the chapter 13 passage of the wheat and the tares.
All wheat has chaff. The 3:13 passage is about making the wheat usable to the Lord by taking away the chaff which protects the grain while it is growing.
The passage concerning the wheat and the tares has the tares being taken away. The tares are not part of the wheat grain.
Do you understand this?
There is no threashing going on in the Matthew 13 passage.
The important point of the Matt.13 passage is that the sons of the wicked one are going to be taken out of the kingdom at the end of the eon. They will be kicked out by the angels.
Quote from: Taffy on January 05, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
QuoteLikewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
WHAT is this Light and DAY referring to Tony?
When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?
Just thought to ask
:icon_flower:
The important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people because a kingdom can't beget people. And "sons of the wicked one" can't be people because a wicked one can't produce offspring.
And so I showed that Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 5:5 that they were sons of the day and sons of the light. Of course literally light cannot produce literal sons and the day cannot literally produce literal sons. Nonetheless the Thessalonians were sons of the day and light just as the Jews were either sons of the kingdom or sons of the wicked one.
So it is going off on a rabbit trail to try to get the ole hound to go sniffing after other things rather than what the thread is about, if you get my drift.
Hi everybody,
Do you think we are sons of the kingdom?
It seems we are called sons of God and I don't know anywhere where we are referred to as a son of the kingdom. I say all of this in light of being part of the new creation that knows the ascended Christ, no longer Christ after the flesh that has to do with Israel and her promised kingdom. I hope you go easy on me as I am new to the forum.
Sherrie
Sherry, I can't believe you asked that question.....Just kidding. :icon_jokercolor:
Actually, I like that question, and you've tapped into something I've been wondering about.. and Fire, your answer really makes me wonder more...hmmmm....maybe we are happy to not be children of the kingdom then...maybe that's the Jews (disobedient) after the flesh?
If you Natural and Spiritual people don't want to pursue it here, maybe we can discuss it further on another thread?...or maybe it ties in here OK...believe it or not, I haven't read every post on this thread, so it may have a history of wandering a bit...anyhoo, good Q Sherry!
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 02:58:29 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 06, 2009, 12:09:19 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 12:01:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Quotehope I didn't say that the wheat is called on to repent or the tares in any earlier posts in this thread.
Likewise I never ever stated that the wheat were bearing the wrong kind of fruit for wheat. At least I hope I never did.
My understanding is that the wheat (the sons of the kingdom) are not making snares and the wheat (sons of the kingdom) is not doing lawlessness. The tares (the sons of the wicked one) are making snares and doing lawlessness.
Both the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one grow together and at the right time Jesus comes back and tells the angels to take all the sons of the wicked one out of the kindgom (not out of people's bodies) and that, at the end of the eon (whether you like it or not).
Who keeps all the Law Tony ? men in the flesh ? works of mens hands ? , the mind of Christ keeps it and those whom are in Christ
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. a good thrashing is how wheat is gathered :thumbsup:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black ,
a bastard wheat
again we go back and forth to childbearing and what is HOLY
Again, rosered, it is a moot point you bring up. The sons of the wicked one are the humans who make snares and do lawlessness. Those sons, at the end of the eon will the angels kick out of the kingdom. The sons of the kingdom remain.
The thrashing is not part of the parable. The part of the parable is that the tares cast out of the kingdom by the angels. One can only go so far with a parable. So the thrashing has no part in this parable. Christ didn't bring it up and neither should we.
Also chastening and thrashing are not the same thing.
Sorry.
Tony
Oh Tony , Tony we are compared to wheat and tares , chaff we are also compared to sheep and trees and goats and so many others things , wheat is thrashed ..............
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
it is all so symbolic in nature , may the Lord open your mind bro to the great things of God , to See Him as He is , Oh to love Him and to love Him is to desire His Heart ........... God love you Tony
Dear rosered,
Again it is you who needs your mind opened up to what the Lord is trying to show, not me. I'm blessed just fine, thank you.
Now then, let's stick with the thread rather than praying a prayer for me that makes you look oh so much more spiritual.
You once again have improperly used a verse to try to make your point.
The Matthew 3:13 passage is totally different than the chapter 13 passage of the wheat and the tares.
All wheat has chaff. The 3:13 passage is about making the wheat usable to the Lord by taking away the chaff which protects the grain while it is growing.
The passage concerning the wheat and the tares has the tares being taken away. The tares are not part of the wheat grain.
Do you understand this?
There is no threashing going on in the Matthew 13 passage.
The important point of the Matt.13 passage is that the sons of the wicked one are going to be taken out of the kingdom at the end of the eon. They will be kicked out by the angels.
It is ok Tony ,
I sure dont think i am more spiritual , sorry if that was the impression you got from my post , did i say pray ??
and I was using the comparisons in that verse thats all
you only see humans as humans correct?
wheat is threshed thats a fact of wheat of which we are compared to
and Matthew 13 has wheat used as a simile, a figure of speech for learning purposes in which two unlike things are explicitly compared like humans as wheat
you cannot see the connection that Is fine
we will move on
God bless .. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AM
So it is going off on a rabbit trail to try to get the ole hound to go sniffing after other things rather than what the thread is about, if you get my drift.
I know I get it :laughing7:
More like a maze with no exit than a rabbit trail though. :happy3:
great thoughts guys , good question Sherry :thumbsup:
I see Children of the Day and Children of Light and Sons of God and sons of men
but not that ? hummm??
good verse Fire hee hee :girlheart:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 06, 2009, 06:13:11 AM
No Rose you didnt say pray :grin: Though Paul did in a few of his letters but maybe he was trying to be hyper spiritual too :grin:
Anyone who knows you knows that "you" trying to be lofty in a spiritual sense is the furthest thing from your personality :grin:
hugs :HeartThrob:
Thanks Fire :mblush: It is so hard for me to express my thoughts in words :sigh: God help now im praying :Violinhit:
But what I really want to KNOW is has anyone gained any insight on the wheat and tares parable in Matt 13 now ?
I will say that so many contributing to this thread have indeed helped me , by clarifying alot of the things I did wonder about ! SO PRAISE GOD!! thanks to each one and all :HeartThrob:
Quote from: MacPherson on January 06, 2009, 06:18:14 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AM
So it is going off on a rabbit trail to try to get the ole hound to go sniffing after other things rather than what the thread is about, if you get my drift.
I know I get it :laughing7:
More like a maze with no exit than a rabbit trail though. :happy3:
Those that do not remember the past; merely repeat it.
"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal ...we live by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 4:18 and 5:7)
peacemaker
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AMThe important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people because a kingdom can't beget people.
Quote me Tony. I never said anything like that.
Quote from: rosered on January 05, 2009, 12:59:31 AM
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
what do you think that means ? to loose on earth and heaven
or bind on earth and heaven ?
Too often people have reduced it to speaking words while they're exercised in prayer. That will move mountains if you doubt not in your heart; but, so much is happening daily by what we do or do not do and we may not be all that aware of it. When you live holy before the Lord, your very presence is a rebuke to this wicked and perverse generation. What you stand for in so many ways is like salt that preserves the culture from quick rot.
Humankind is meant to be God's wife. When men in the church who are betrothed as a chaste virgin unto one, even Christ; that is, they are to joined directly to the Lord, but they have intimate relations instead with a religious system, tradition's doctrine or mere ritual practice, or are even more directly subservient to other men in those things in which they are to be faithful to God alone, it releases in the earthly realm those carnal perversions of men with men. Trace it out and you will see this is true.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 06, 2009, 09:29:51 AM
Too often people have reduced it to speaking words while they're exercised in prayer. That will move mountains if you doubt not in your heart; but, so much is happening daily by what we do or do not do and we may not be all that aware of it. When you live holy before the Lord, your very presence is a rebuke to this wicked and perverse generation. What you stand for in so many ways is like salt that preserves the culture from quick rot.
Humankind is meant to be God's wife. When men in the church who are betrothed as a chaste virgin unto one, even Christ; that is, they are to joined directly to the Lord, but they have intimate relations instead with a religious system, tradition's doctrine or mere ritual practice, or are even more directly subservient to other men in those things in which they are to be faithful to God alone, it releases in the earthly realm those carnal perversions of men with men. Trace it out and you will see this is true.
Very interesting and pertinent post.. :thumbsup:
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_chucknjerryleecopy.jpg)
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_1f112b1g3ZZZZZZZZZ8a1fc400c03e9011e.jpg)
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_untitled.jpg)
O.K. Bobf, I will go through your posts and find it for you.
MacPherson, I agree wholeheartedly with you in that the hyper-spiritual attemp at understanding the parable of the wheat and tares does turn into a maze with no exit.
If you meant it as a slam on what I have been writing, then, please, desist from further puerile statements and keep to the topic at hand. :HeartThrob:
I believe that my understanding of that parable is the most logical and which does have an entrance and exit to it.
To the one who wrote about Peter being sifted by Satan as wheat: Again, that is not part of the parable of the wheat and tares. We need to keep to the topic. In the parable the angels do not do any sifting, they kick out of the kingdom all who make snares and do lawlessness.
Does this make sense to you?
what if these things are IS...WAS and WILL BE ?
do we not find multiple meanings thru out scripture?
can not Gods word transend time and culture being made manifest in every generation?
hey tony, jean dougles sez HI :grin:
peace
chuckt
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_n1393815327_30197788_2837.jpg)
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 05, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
QuoteLikewise, sons of the kingdom are really people just as surely as sons of light and sons of the day are really the Thessalonians and believers.
WHAT is this Light and DAY referring to Tony?
When did these folk LIVE in the DAY?
Just thought to ask
:icon_flower:
The important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people because a kingdom can't beget people. And "sons of the wicked one" can't be people because a wicked one can't produce offspring.
And so I showed that Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 5:5 that they were sons of the day and sons of the light. Of course literally light cannot produce literal sons and the day cannot literally produce literal sons. Nonetheless the Thessalonians were sons of the day and light just as the Jews were either sons of the kingdom or sons of the wicked one.
So it is going off on a rabbit trail to try to get the ole hound to go sniffing after other things rather than what the thread is about, if you get my drift.
yes Tony of course the Thessalonians were children of the Day and Night..That self explainatory ,but what is This LIGHT and DAY.
Why were they called such?
Id be interested to hear your thoughts, im sure ya can keep it brief.
Quote from: bobf on January 06, 2009, 09:05:42 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AMThe important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people because a kingdom can't beget people.
Quote me Tony. I never said anything like that.
Dear Bob,
Here is what you wrote earlier. I will italicize it and make it blue and bold:
bobf
Est
Offline
Posts: 235
Re: Natural and Spiritual
« Reply #436 on: December 31, 2008, 02:56:11 PM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, let me explain it another way that might alleviate that contradiction. The seed of the adversary is not our physical flesh.
We know that Jesus does not directly sow (put) little good-godly people (wheat seed) into the physical world and Satan does not put little evil-wicked people (tare seed) into the physical world. That's basically the serpent-seed doctrine.
Rather:
Jesus sows His Seed which are His Words of Truth into the minds & hearts of people.
Satan sows his seed which are his lies & deception into the minds & hearts of people.
Each seed when "listened to" forms a spirit or nature within us.
Each spirit is the offspring or child produced by each seed.
They are opposing spirits.
Both seeds are allowed to grow and mature.
God does not just "kick out" are person's carnal, lustful, selfish nature the minute it forms.
At the "end of the aion" (whenever that is) the spirit of the wicked one is removed & destroyed.Since, according to you the seed Jesus planted was not actual people but a "His words of truth"
And since, according to you the seed Satan planted was not actual people but "lies and deception"
I can say for a fact that you believe the "sons of the kingdom" are not people but are "His words of truth" since that is what Jesus said the good seed was and the sons of the wicked one are not people according to you but are "lies and deception".
Then you switch figures from "lies and deception" in your last sentence above to "spirit of the wicked one."
So you see Bob, I am correct.
But Jesus did not ever say that the good seed is His words of truth sown into the minds of people. Rather He interpreted what the good seed is by saying that it is the sons of the kingdom. I will believe Him over you any day.
He also interpreted what the bad seed is. He said it is the sons of the wicked one.
Those (actual human beings) who make snares and do lawlessness (last I looked a concept could not make snares and do lawlessness) but those people who make snares and do lawlessness will, at the end of the eon, be cast out of the kingdom by Christ's angels.
Love,
Tony
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 03:22:20 PM
what if these things are IS...WAS and WILL BE ?
peace
chuckt
Are you God's old covenant people?? Did he make a covenant with you?? Did you shed all the righteous blood of Abel??
Mat 23:35 That upon
you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
For me, maybe I take this too literal; but Jesus came to save
his people. and in Romans 11 we are told "all Israel will be saved".
The grafting in of the gentiles was for a purpose. It still related to God's covenant people, and God working through the first fruits to bring in the NEW. All Israel saved.
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from
Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen
according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who
are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the
giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
The judgment that occurred, or for many is still "yet to come", is for a purpose. Out with the OLD, and in with the NEW. All
Authority has been put down. The power of sin is the law. The law has been fulfilled and vanished away.
Now for me, with all that said, yes I see that God continues to work within the lives of individuals
now, and to take the scriptures and see applications of how God works with us, grows us, chastens us, LOVES us; is awesome, after all it is LIVING WORD; but the interpretation of that "internal/spiritual" application is "individual" with multiple interpretations. and no one interpretation is more "spiritual" than another.
But for me, the truth is; We are NOT under LAW, none of us; believers or unbelievers.
jmo,
Z
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Personally I think in this parable we find statements of what will be. Many people think that it is a story of people and a separation of them.
What I see is our destiny, the things that offend and do iniquity will be burned away, exposing our righteousness.
I understand this wailing and gnashing as the way I used to be is burned away.
Quote from: Zeek on January 06, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 03:22:20 PM
what if these things are IS...WAS and WILL BE ?
peace
chuckt
Are you God's old covenant people?? Did he make a covenant with you?? Did you shed all the righteous blood of Abel??
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
For me, maybe I take this too literal; but Jesus came to save his people. and in Romans 11 we are told "all Israel will be saved".
The grafting in of the gentiles was for a purpose. It still related to God's covenant people, and God working through the first fruits to bring in the NEW. All Israel saved.
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
The judgment that occurred, or for many is still "yet to come", is for a purpose. Out with the OLD, and in with the NEW. All Authority has been put down. The power of sin is the law. The law has been fulfilled and vanished away.
Now for me, with all that said, yes I see that God continues to work within the lives of individuals now, and to take the scriptures and see applications of how God works with us, grows us, chastens us, LOVES us; is awesome, after all it is LIVING WORD; but the interpretation of that "internal/spiritual" application is "individual" with multiple interpretations. and no one interpretation is more "spiritual" than another.
But for me, the truth is; We are NOT under LAW, none of us; believers or unbelievers.
jmo,
Z
greetings Z.
not sure why you bring up the law here? or OT covenant people? but you a gree that God works in his people NOW and that we are being refined NOW as they were in the past and as they will be in the future, thus..IS...WAS and WILL BE.
Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
be well
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 03:59:45 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 06, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 03:22:20 PM
what if these things are IS...WAS and WILL BE ?
peace
chuckt
Are you God's old covenant people?? Did he make a covenant with you?? Did you shed all the righteous blood of Abel??
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
For me, maybe I take this too literal; but Jesus came to save his people. and in Romans 11 we are told "all Israel will be saved".
The grafting in of the gentiles was for a purpose. It still related to God's covenant people, and God working through the first fruits to bring in the NEW. All Israel saved.
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
The judgment that occurred, or for many is still "yet to come", is for a purpose. Out with the OLD, and in with the NEW. All Authority has been put down. The power of sin is the law. The law has been fulfilled and vanished away.
Now for me, with all that said, yes I see that God continues to work within the lives of individuals now, and to take the scriptures and see applications of how God works with us, grows us, chastens us, LOVES us; is awesome, after all it is LIVING WORD; but the interpretation of that "internal/spiritual" application is "individual" with multiple interpretations. and no one interpretation is more "spiritual" than another.
But for me, the truth is; We are NOT under LAW, none of us; believers or unbelievers.
jmo,
Z
greetings Z.
not sure why you bring up the law here? or OT covenant people? but you a gree that God works in his people NOW and that we are being refined NOW as they were in the past and as they will be in the future, thus..IS...WAS and WILL BE.
Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
be well
chuckt
the law worketh wrath
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
the law has been fulfilled. Authority has been put down.
why are you qouting scripture at me anout the law?? :dontknow:
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
O.K. Bobf, I will go through your posts and find it for you.
MacPherson, I agree wholeheartedly with you in that the hyper-spiritual attemp at understanding the parable of the wheat and tares does turn into a maze with no exit.
If you meant it as a slam on what I have been writing, then, please, desist from further puerile statements and keep to the topic at hand. :HeartThrob:
I believe that my understanding of that parable is the most logical and which does have an entrance and exit to it.
To the one who wrote about Peter being sifted by Satan as wheat: Again, that is not part of the parable of the wheat and tares. We need to keep to the topic. In the parable the angels do not do any sifting, they kick out of the kingdom all who make snares and do lawlessness.
Does this make sense to you?
So basically Tony, what you're saying to those who are quoting Scriptures that are not DIRECTLY connected to your stubborn stand on wheat and tares . . .according to you, are irrelevant? What ever happened to letting Scripture interpret Scripture? The walls around your city of opinions seems to be so thick that noone can get in and you can't get out. It's very difficult to continue extending my hand to you in friendship only to have you reject it because it's not clean enough for you.
You keep trying to force everyone who posts on this thread to conform to your thinking, to your topic, to your way of interpretation and the bottom line is . . . the people posting who have been trying to share with you their positions just can not be controlled that way. These aren't rabbit trails bro . . .it's all one big net. Each line of thought is connected to another and those that can't step back and see the big picture for what it is, get frustrated because in their tunnel vision, the pieces don't seem to fit . .but when you come to the place when you're willing to realize that the mind of man, as great as it is, just doesn't have the capacity to see the whole picture when it comes to the things of God, "that" act will allow you to be able to see things beyond your natural reasoning and logic. That's what faith is.
Faith is the realm where God reveals Truth and life . . .it's not in how hard we study or how much we dig into definitions. Those are great and help out my mind to put pieces together and all, but the key to life is not knowledge about things written of God . . .the key to life is having an intimate relationship "with" God. Knowledge simply leads me to him, but only spirit can become a part of him. There needs to be a separation there so that I can become complete "in" God.
It's great that so many here quote passages and with those passages share what they see in them . .that's the purpose of Scripture, to launch you deeper in your relationship with Christ. I'm with Rose . . . if I were just passing through this thread and read all the responses, it wouldn't take long to see where who it is that emits the abundant life and who it is that reflects religion. I choose life.
The interesting thing about what's been happening here is, there are so many people that are willing to love on not only those that are in agreement, but those that are not as well. But yet there's a sense of rejection that comes across from others who get so hung up on technicalities that they seem to be blind to the fact that the evidence of life in a person is the fact that regardless of their "belief" in a thing, it's the relationship with each other that is most important.
Jesus didn't come so that he could reinforce and clarify the rules of God, even though there were many that God did establish. Jesus came so that relationship with God could be restored. So what if my take on wheat and tares isn't the same as yours . . is it worth all of the arguing? The points to both sides have been thoroughly shared out. If people are still on the fence at this point in the discussion, it's only God who will be able to convince them
because words are not cutting it anymore.
I for one do not disagree that your take on the wheat and tares has credence. I can totally see that tares and wheat could very well be those for Christ and those against. But I also believe that there's another way to look at it that takes it "internal" which for me is the spiritual reality of it. To see it literally as people, is the natural . . .to see it as characteristics within "one" person is taking what is natural and seeing it's spiritual intent.
And I'm sure you're going to argue that the wheat and tare is the natural and applying it as people is the spiritual . . .and as I said before, it is meant to be seen that way as well, that's why Jesus explained it to the disciples. But "that" field was ready for harvest "then". The field was "white" and harvesters were few . . ."then".
If the field was ready for harvest "then". . .what does that say of us today? That was 2000 years ago. The field I believe Jesus was eluding to then was those following the old Covenant were the tares and those following the New Covenant were the wheat. But to try to reapply that literally again is eating yesterdays manna . . it's full of worms by now.
It's the Peter experience all over again. Everyone has their opinion of who they think Jesus is, just as everyone has their own opinion as to what Jesus said. "But who do YOU say that I am???" Which to me is saying . . . there's an external interpretation and an "internal" one. And for me . . .beings I'm going long with this anyway . . .I'll again, throw out this thought that we, like the tabernacle, are 3 dimensional beings. And God . .who is our creator, is also a 3 dimensional God. And the written Word sent by God, manifested through Christ, inspired by the Spirit, is to be digested in 3 dimensions as well.
You've got the literal down . .the natural . . a field of wheat mixed with weeds. I believe what Jesus explained to the disciples is the moral piece, the field being the world, the wheat being New Covenant people, the weeds being the religious minded people . . .but the spiritual picture is what makes it personal . .it takes it "internally". "I" am a field and planted within me are wheat and weeds. And don't tell me that you don't have both good and bad thoughts in you . . .Paul himself confessed to this and considered himself to be a wretched man because of it.
Bottom line . . . all of this bickering from you isn't bringing life to anyone. No one is condemning you and yet you see yourself as a victim. All I'm saying is, there's ALWAYS more than one way to see Truth, it all depends on what God reveals to "you". And what is revealed, simply share . .if others see it differently, fine, if they see it the same as you, all the better. If they don't stay directly on topic . . .ever think that maybe God is leading the conversation to another place where someone else is really hurting and needs to hear or read about something that may not be so directly related to "this" subject? Are not all things orchestrated by God? Wasn't that what God Abraham in trouble when he decided to take things into his own hands and produce a son by his own logical means?
Okay, I'm done. :soap: :soap: :soap:
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 04:11:10 PM
why are you qouting scripture at me anout the law?? :dontknow:
Ok, sorry for my approach;
I thought what u were saying along the lines of many in this thread is that the wheat and tares are within each of us, and the tares need to be burned out, which to me would have to be by the "wrath of God", destroying the tares.
you would have to be under law, or a part of you under law, in order for the wrath of God to burn up you, or your "carnal man"
For me, the tares are in reference to those stuck in the old covenant mindset, which I believe the scripture shows were HIS people, those given the old covenant; who were "soon" to be judged, and see their house come crashing down.
sorry,
z
Quote from: Zeek on January 06, 2009, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 04:11:10 PM
why are you qouting scripture at me anout the law?? :dontknow:
Ok, sorry for my approach;
I thought what u were saying along the lines of many in this thread is that the wheat and tares are within each of us, and the tares need to be burned out, which to me would have to be by the "wrath of God", destroying the tares.
For me, the tares are in reference to those stuck in the old covenant mindset, which I believe the scripture shows were HIS people, those given the old covenant; who were "soon" to be judged, and see their house come crashing down.
sorry,
z
ok look what you wrote, if the tarres are those STUCK in the old covenant mindset i.e the LAW, how do they COME OUT? were you at anytime stuck in a mindset of do's and dont's? and if so, did God BURN it out of you? and if one does not come out will they not experience the ""fire"" at a later time? again...IS WAS and WILL BE :mshock:
peace
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 04:22:28 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 06, 2009, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 06, 2009, 04:11:10 PM
why are you qouting scripture at me anout the law?? :dontknow:
Ok, sorry for my approach;
I thought what u were saying along the lines of many in this thread is that the wheat and tares are within each of us, and the tares need to be burned out, which to me would have to be by the "wrath of God", destroying the tares.
For me, the tares are in reference to those stuck in the old covenant mindset, which I believe the scripture shows were HIS people, those given the old covenant; who were "soon" to be judged, and see their house come crashing down.
sorry,
z
ok look what you wrote, if the tarres are those STUCK in the old covenant mindset i.e the LAW, how do they COME OUT? were you at anytime stuck in a mindset of do's and dont's? and if so, did God BURN it out of you? and if one does not come out will they not experience the ""fire"" at a later time? again...IS WAS and WILL BE :mshock:
peace
chuckt
Never have i been under law. That was an agreement between God and his people. God made the agreement/covenant with them. He gave them the temple, he gave them the ceremonial rituals, etc. These were never given to me.
They have all been fulfilled in HIM.
QuoteFor me, the tares are in reference to those stuck in the old covenant mindset, which I believe the scripture shows were HIS people, those given the old covenant; who were "soon" to be judged, and see their house come crashing down.
personally Zeek, I have no problem withis take either :icon_flower:
QuoteThey have all been fulfilled in HIM.
i agree Zeek, im still sorta confused as to why we are discussing this.
QuoteNever have i been under law
good glad to hear it.
God bless
euty
Quote from: reFORMer on January 06, 2009, 09:29:51 AM
Too often people have reduced it to speaking words while they're exercised in prayer. That will move mountains if you doubt not in your heart; but, so much is happening daily by what we do or do not do and we may not be all that aware of it. When you live holy before the Lord, your very presence is a rebuke to this wicked and perverse generation. What you stand for in so many ways is like salt that preserves the culture from quick rot.
Humankind is meant to be God's wife. When men in the church who are betrothed as a chaste virgin unto one, even Christ; that is, they are to joined directly to the Lord, but they have intimate relations instead with a religious system, tradition's doctrine or mere ritual practice, or are even more directly subservient to other men in those things in which they are to be faithful to God alone, it releases in the earthly realm those carnal perversions of men with men. Trace it out and you will see this is true.
:cloud9: AMEN.
Pr 4:7 - Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Quote from: Nathan on January 06, 2009, 04:15:08 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
O.K. Bobf, I will go through your posts and find it for you.
MacPherson, I agree wholeheartedly with you in that the hyper-spiritual attemp at understanding the parable of the wheat and tares does turn into a maze with no exit.
If you meant it as a slam on what I have been writing, then, please, desist from further puerile statements and keep to the topic at hand. :HeartThrob:
I believe that my understanding of that parable is the most logical and which does have an entrance and exit to it.
To the one who wrote about Peter being sifted by Satan as wheat: Again, that is not part of the parable of the wheat and tares. We need to keep to the topic. In the parable the angels do not do any sifting, they kick out of the kingdom all who make snares and do lawlessness.
Does this make sense to you?
So basically Tony, what you're saying to those who are quoting Scriptures that are not DIRECTLY connected to your stubborn stand on wheat and tares . . .according to you, are irrelevant? What ever happened to letting Scripture interpret Scripture? The walls around your city of opinions seems to be so thick that noone can get in and you can't get out. It's very difficult to continue extending my hand to you in friendship only to have you reject it because it's not clean enough for you.
You keep trying to force everyone who posts on this thread to conform to your thinking, to your topic, to your way of interpretation and the bottom line is . . . the people posting who have been trying to share with you their positions just can not be controlled that way. These aren't rabbit trails bro . . .it's all one big net. Each line of thought is connected to another and those that can't step back and see the big picture for what it is, get frustrated because in their tunnel vision, the pieces don't seem to fit . .but when you come to the place when you're willing to realize that the mind of man, as great as it is, just doesn't have the capacity to see the whole picture when it comes to the things of God, "that" act will allow you to be able to see things beyond your natural reasoning and logic. That's what faith is.
Faith is the realm where God reveals Truth and life . . .it's not in how hard we study or how much we dig into definitions. Those are great and help out my mind to put pieces together and all, but the key to life is not knowledge about things written of God . . .the key to life is having an intimate relationship "with" God. Knowledge simply leads me to him, but only spirit can become a part of him. There needs to be a separation there so that I can become complete "in" God.
It's great that so many here quote passages and with those passages share what they see in them . .that's the purpose of Scripture, to launch you deeper in your relationship with Christ. I'm with Rose . . . if I were just passing through this thread and read all the responses, it wouldn't take long to see where who it is that emits the abundant life and who it is that reflects religion. I choose life.
The interesting thing about what's been happening here is, there are so many people that are willing to love on not only those that are in agreement, but those that are not as well. But yet there's a sense of rejection that comes across from others who get so hung up on technicalities that they seem to be blind to the fact that the evidence of life in a person is the fact that regardless of their "belief" in a thing, it's the relationship with each other that is most important.
Jesus didn't come so that he could reinforce and clarify the rules of God, even though there were many that God did establish. Jesus came so that relationship with God could be restored. So what if my take on wheat and tares isn't the same as yours . . is it worth all of the arguing? The points to both sides have been thoroughly shared out. If people are still on the fence at this point in the discussion, it's only God who will be able to convince them
because words are not cutting it anymore.
I for one do not disagree that your take on the wheat and tares has credence. I can totally see that tares and wheat could very well be those for Christ and those against. But I also believe that there's another way to look at it that takes it "internal" which for me is the spiritual reality of it. To see it literally as people, is the natural . . .to see it as characteristics within "one" person is taking what is natural and seeing it's spiritual intent.
And I'm sure you're going to argue that the wheat and tare is the natural and applying it as people is the spiritual . . .and as I said before, it is meant to be seen that way as well, that's why Jesus explained it to the disciples. But "that" field was ready for harvest "then". The field was "white" and harvesters were few . . ."then".
If the field was ready for harvest "then". . .what does that say of us today? That was 2000 years ago. The field I believe Jesus was eluding to then was those following the old Covenant were the tares and those following the New Covenant were the wheat. But to try to reapply that literally again is eating yesterdays manna . . it's full of worms by now.
It's the Peter experience all over again. Everyone has their opinion of who they think Jesus is, just as everyone has their own opinion as to what Jesus said. "But who do YOU say that I am???" Which to me is saying . . . there's an external interpretation and an "internal" one. And for me . . .beings I'm going long with this anyway . . .I'll again, throw out this thought that we, like the tabernacle, are 3 dimensional beings. And God . .who is our creator, is also a 3 dimensional God. And the written Word sent by God, manifested through Christ, inspired by the Spirit, is to be digested in 3 dimensions as well.
You've got the literal down . .the natural . . a field of wheat mixed with weeds. I believe what Jesus explained to the disciples is the moral piece, the field being the world, the wheat being New Covenant people, the weeds being the religious minded people . . .but the spiritual picture is what makes it personal . .it takes it "internally". "I" am a field and planted within me are wheat and weeds. And don't tell me that you don't have both good and bad thoughts in you . . .Paul himself confessed to this and considered himself to be a wretched man because of it.
Bottom line . . . all of this bickering from you isn't bringing life to anyone. No one is condemning you and yet you see yourself as a victim. All I'm saying is, there's ALWAYS more than one way to see Truth, it all depends on what God reveals to "you". And what is revealed, simply share . .if others see it differently, fine, if they see it the same as you, all the better. If they don't stay directly on topic . . .ever think that maybe God is leading the conversation to another place where someone else is really hurting and needs to hear or read about something that may not be so directly related to "this" subject? Are not all things orchestrated by God? Wasn't that what God Abraham in trouble when he decided to take things into his own hands and produce a son by his own logical means?
Okay, I'm done. :soap: :soap: :soap:
:cloud9: Nathan, there are so many good points in this, all I want to say is, AMEN. :thumbsup:
QuoteOkay, I'm done. :soap: :soap: :soap:
Can I quote you on that :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy on January 06, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
QuoteOkay, I'm done. :soap: :soap: :soap:
Can I quote you on that :laughing7:
I thought your response was cute . .but I also thought it was responding to Cardinal . . . when I realized it was directed to me . . . it made me LAUGH OUT LOUD . . .A LOT.
So for the Taffy's out there, let me clarify the "doneness". I was not suggesting I'm done in all fields . . I'm just done harvesting THAT particular one.
That better Taf????
Quote from: Nathan on January 06, 2009, 05:19:55 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 06, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
QuoteOkay, I'm done. :soap: :soap: :soap:
Can I quote you on that :laughing7:
I thought your response was cute . .but I also thought it was responding to Cardinal . . . when I realized it was directed to me . . . it made me LAUGH OUT LOUD . . .A LOT.
So for the Taffy's out there, let me clarify the "doneness". I was not suggesting I'm done in all fields . . I'm just done harvesting THAT particular one.
That better Taf????
I didnt think you were Done for a Minute Nat..Kinda sounded funny to me when I read it thou ,and yup I know what ya mean :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:39:17 PM
Dear Bob,
Here is what you wrote earlier. I will italicize it and make it blue and bold:
So you see Bob, I am correct.
No Tony you are not correct. Find where I said the underlined part and then quote me please:
"The important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people
because a kingdom can't beget people."
Dear Nathan,
I'm sorry you think that I believe anyone who disagrees with me is so unclean I cannot even shake their hand. That, friend, is a slam and is a tactic called poisoning of the well and ad hominum attack as if it proves anything. I never thought that about anyone here.
Secondly, Your saying my stand is a "stubborn stand" again is an ad hominem attack, which again, friend, proves nothing. After all, I started the thread and should be allowed to try to keep people on track. All the personal chit chat that has gone on in this thread should have gone to the other message board.
I have found that when someone such as you posts a very long thread attacking me and what I write about the thread is usually locked down. So I can only surmise this is just another attempt to lock the thread so people don't get more understanding on this topic. Maybe I'm wrong but this is just what I've seen.
I could reply in depth to your letter. It is nice you see what I believe concerning the wheat and the tares while at the same time you bloody my nose :laughing7: But if I reply to all you've said I will be going off topic.
I'm not saying there are not any spiritual meanings to the things we take as natural in the Scriptures. But I am saying that Jesus told us exactly what the two different seeds were and they are not what Bobf stated.
To state that something is not what my Lord said it is is not of faith. Faith is believing what God has said. Unbelief is not believing what God has said.
The more Bob and I connect on this matter and Molly and Fireinfolding and others the more we all understand each others stand on the matter. That is good, wouldn't you say?
Sorry about the bloody nose, but that axe does swing both ways. You threw some punches at Rose with no apologies so I figured it was a free fight. The only difference between her and I was, I knew going in my post would have a bite to it, and she had no idea that her prayer would be taken in offense. And to be honest, I really considered deleting some of the sting out of it. But in my own flesh, I elected to leave it as originally written. It was from the heart . . which is to say, I don't mean to beat you up because it's fun. But some of your stuff is just as aggressive so I figured you could handle what little I do throw out from time to time.
Quote from: bobf on January 06, 2009, 05:31:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:39:17 PM
Dear Bob,
Here is what you wrote earlier. I will italicize it and make it blue and bold:
So you see Bob, I am correct.
No Tony you are not correct. Find where I said the underlined part and then quote me please:
"The important point I was making was that Bob was saying that "sons of the kingdom" can't be people because a kingdom can't beget people."
You stated:
How do you know Christ's explanation of the wheat & tares was literal & plain?
How can a kingdom literally have children?
How can Satan literally have children? Serpent seed doctrine?
Will unbelievers literally be burned in a literal furnace of literal fire? Is a lake a furnace?
How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?
If Jesus was speaking plainly then why did He say "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"?So I took from what you wrote above in blue that the kingdom cannot literally have children.
If someone came up to me and asked me "Tony can a turtle literally have kittens" I would take that to mean he does not believe that a turtle can beget kittens. When Bob asked the question "How can a kingdom literally have children" he is telling me that the kingdom cannot beget people.
Now I will say I was wrong in saying bob said "
sons of the kingdom cannot beget people." I meant to say that Bob was saying in a round-about way that "the kingdom cannot beget people" according to what Bob said.
But my post still stands. Bob thinks the good seed is a concept and not people. He also believes that the bad seed is a concept and not people.
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 05:58:28 PMYou stated:
How do you know Christ's explanation of the wheat & tares was literal & plain?
How can a kingdom literally have children?
How can Satan literally have children? Serpent seed doctrine?
Will unbelievers literally be burned in a literal furnace of literal fire? Is a lake a furnace?
How would removing unbelievers from the midst of the faithful uproot the faithful?
If Jesus was speaking plainly then why did He say "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"?
So I took from what you wrote above in blue that the kingdom cannot literally have children.
If someone came up to me and asked me "Tony can a turtle literally have kittens" I would take that to mean he does not believe that a turtle can beget kittens. When Bob asked the question "How can a kingdom literally have children" he is telling me that the kingdom cannot beget people.
Now I will say I was wrong in saying bob said "sons of the kingdom cannot beget people." I meant to say that Bob was saying in a round-about way that "the kingdom cannot beget people" according to what Bob said.
But my post still stands. Bob thinks the good seed is a concept and not people. He also believes that the bad seed is a concept and not people.
Ok Tony I see where you got that, but no, that was not the argument I was making at all. I was not arguing that because a kingdom can not literally beget people that therefore "children" must refer to non-people (the kingdom or satan could
figuratively beget certain types of people). I was arguing that Chirst's words are not 100% literal because a Kingdom can not
literally have (literally beget) children (people or otherwise) and Satan does not
literally have (literally beget) children, which is the sepent seed doctrine. Since no one here (just about anyway) believes the serpent seed doctrine, we all take those words non-literally to some extent. That is what I was arguing.
"he is telling me that the kingdom cannot beget people" no, he is telling you that a kingdom can not
literally beget people and that the language is therefore figurative whether one takes "children" as people or not. If someone asked "Can Beethoven literally give birth to the 9th Symphony?" it means that the phrase "Beethoven gave birth to the 9th Symphony" is figurative, but it would not mean that the person is arguing that the "9th Symphony" is figurative. I do not believe that the phrase "children of the kingdom" is synonomous with "certain people God elected to enter the kingdom", but not for the reason you stated.
Dear Bob, can we both agree that a figure can only go so far?
The Daughters of the Revolution, are they literally daughters?
Sure, the Revolution did not literaly beget them but this does not mean that the literal daughters of the literal revolution were not originated by literal daughters who were part of the literal revolution.
Likewise the sons of the kingdom. We know that a kingdom cannot literally beget sons. But the sons can be part of that kingdom and live amongst that kingdom.
Now He, answering, said, "He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind." (Mat 13:37)
Did mankind literally beget the Son, Jesus Christ? That is a figure. Yet we know that there is a literal Son of Mankind.
Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one." (Mat 13:38)
I believe that there is such a literal place I know as the world.
I know that there are literally sons of the kingdom.
I know that there literally is a "wicked one" and that there are literally sons of the wicked one.
Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers. (Mat 13:39)
I know there really is a being called the Adversary.
I know there really a conclusion coming to this eon.
I know there really are messengers or angels.
Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon." (Mat 13:40)
I know that at least the farmers in Israel used to cull the darnel and burn it up with fire. It will be
like that when the conclusion comes to this eon in which we live.
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (Mat 13:41)
I believe the Son of Mankind literaly is Jesus.
I believe the messengers He will dispatch are literally angels.
I believe those angels literally will take out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness.
and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:42)
When Israel was held captive over 400 years by Egypt they were said to be in a furnace.
Deu 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the
iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
1Ki 8:51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the
furnace of iron:
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the
furnace of affliction.
So it is affliction's furnace. The affliction was like a furnace in that one cannot get out and it is hot and miserable inside.
Jer 11:4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that
I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:
Jeremiah saw the future in which Israel would again go into the furnace:
Eze 22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
No, it is not a literal furnace of fire but it represents the Lord pouring out His fury on them.
And now, once again, the sons of the wicked one, those making snares and doing lawlessness are going to go into the furnace of fire. Not a literal furnace of fire but it will be a fiery trial for them cast outside of the kingdom.
Was it a literal furnace? No. But there is a literal chastening they must go through. There is nothing "spiritual" about this. It is a judgment upon them.
I have asked this of you several times and didn't receive much of a response:
You stated earlier this:
"- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan."Since Jesus despatches the angels when this eon is ending to kick out of the kingdom all the sons of the wicked one, how was the seed of the wicked one taken out of Paul since his conversion was almost 2000 years ago and the eon has not ended yet?
Remember the tares have to grow up with the wheat until the end of the eon and then at the end of the eon Jesus sends the angels to take out of the kingdom all the tares.
consider this please:
Mat 13:47-50 Again, like is the kingdom of the heavens to a dragnet cast into the sea, which gathers of every species, (48) and, when it was filled full, hauling it up on the beach and being seated, they cull the ideal into crocks, yet the rotten they cast out." (49) Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from the midst of the just. (50) And they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
How can the drag net be the human body having a mind and flesh?
This parable is likened to the parable of the wheat and tares.
How can the teachings of the adversary (according to you) being the tares (according to you) lament and gnash its teeth when it comes out of the person?
You stated that:
QuoteJesus sows His Seed which are His Words of Truth into the minds & hearts of people.
Satan sows his seed which are his lies & deception into the minds & hearts of people
How can lies and deception lament and gnash its teeth?
Can you please answer these questions?
BTW I'm not mad at anyone nor being mean in my posts. I just want to know what you believe about these things.
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 10:08:27 PM
I know that there literally is a "wicked one" and that there are literally sons of the wicked one.
We can get into muddy waters over this. Spiritual things are literal because they exist, not necessarily being what is literally described.
I think there is a fine line between the physical and spiritual, natural, supernatural. These terms are used because it is about the only way we can describe things. In reality everything can be physical and natural because they all exist.
Literally God is a consuming fire, but not literally a flame at the end of a match, yet, the flame at the end of a match could not exist without God.
A literal son of the wicked one is what?
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 10:08:27 PMLikewise the sons of the kingdom. We know that a kingdom cannot literally beget sons. But the sons can be part of that kingdom and live amongst that kingdom.
I agree, but I was never making the argument you thought I was making.
When I said "children of the kingdom" are not people, I meant it in the sense that your interpetation implies, that the "children of the kingdom" is synonomous with certain people, elected and designated as "wheat" in this world.
Based on you earlier comments (esp. about election) my understanding of your view of the parable runs like this:
God elected certain people before they were even born, to enter His kingdom.
Let's say one of those certain people is John Smith.
God "planted" John Smith in the world (I'm not sure what/when you think "planting" corresponds to).
John smith is an example of "wheat" in the parable
John Smith lives out his entire life as "wheat" and if alive at the end of the eon he is harvested into the kingdom, otherwise he's resurrected and harvested.
So "wheat" becomes
synonomous with certain people whom God elected and "tares" becomes synonmous with other people. And that is what I disagree with and why I said "wheat are not people" and "tares are not people".
John Smith, although elected and in the world, was not always a "child of the kingdom", in fact John Smith was a "child of the wicked one" at one time. I know this because John Smith was doing unrighteousness at one time which is the definition of "child of the devil".
- Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
In the parable, the wheat and tares in the field do not change identities.
In the world, a physical person changes identities from "child of the devil" to "child of the kingdom"
The spirit of God born within a person never changes hats.
The carnal mind never changes hats.
That is the reason I associate the tares & wheat with those spirits rather than certain people elected or not.
At the same time, a whole person led by the spirit of God is a Son of God, a child of the kingdom.
A whole person led by the carnal mind is none of His, a child of the devil.
IOW it is not whether a person was elected by God before he was born that makes him a child of the kingdom. It is whether he is doing righteousness or not.
QuoteI have asked this of you several times and didn't receive much of a response:
You stated earlier this:
"- Tares means children of the adversary, but not literal children, those who do the works of Satan."
Since Jesus despatches the angels when this eon is ending to kick out of the kingdom all the sons of the wicked one, how was the seed of the wicked one taken out of Paul since his conversion was almost 2000 years ago and the eon has not ended yet?
Remember the tares have to grow up with the wheat until the end of the eon and then at the end of the eon Jesus sends the angels to take out of the kingdom all the tares.
I believe I did answer. The ends of the eons were come upon Paul.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ends of the eons] are come.
QuoteMat 13:47-50 Again, like is the kingdom of the heavens to a dragnet cast into the sea, which gathers of every species, (48) and, when it was filled full, hauling it up on the beach and being seated, they cull the ideal into crocks, yet the rotten they cast out." (49) Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from the midst of the just. (50) And they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
How can the drag net be the human body having a mind and flesh?
This parable is likened to the parable of the wheat and tares.
I don't equate the net with the human body. I equate the net & separation process with judgment.
QuoteHow can the teachings of the adversary (according to you) being the tares (according to you) lament and gnash its teeth when it comes out of the person?
You stated that:
Jesus sows His Seed which are His Words of Truth into the minds & hearts of people.
Satan sows his seed which are his lies & deception into the minds & hearts of people.
How can lies and deception lament and gnash its teeth?
The lies and deception is only the seed that is planted in the heart of man. It grows into a spirit, which I think of as a type of mind, a nature, a way of being, and thinking. Just as Paul's inner man (which I think is the spirit of God) delights in the law of God, the carnal mind can weep and gnash when it's desires are denied. If the carnal mind can "lust" and be "enmity agaisnt God" why can't it wail and gnash?
Can you tell me exatly what it means to you for God & Satan to PLANT seed in the world. What's are they actually doing and when? What literal events do those correspond to.
Hi Bob, thanks for further clarifying of your position.
In a sense I feel like the goal posts keep getting moved. It is going to take me some time to digest what you have just written.
Fireinfold, thanks for your kind comment. It is appreciated as are you.
Tony
Quote from: peacemaker on January 06, 2009, 06:58:00 AM
Quote from: MacPherson on January 06, 2009, 06:18:14 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:07:17 AM
So it is going off on a rabbit trail to try to get the ole hound to go sniffing after other things rather than what the thread is about, if you get my drift.
I know I get it :laughing7:
More like a maze with no exit than a rabbit trail though. :happy3:
Those that do not remember the past; merely repeat it.
That's why I'm staying out of this thread for the most part. :happygrin:
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
If you meant it as a slam on what I have been writing, then, please, desist from further puerile statements and keep to the topic at hand. :HeartThrob:
Just calling them as I see them, and will continue to poke yer ribs, as I take a notion.
Interesting thing about that word "puerile". I've seen people use it on the internet. Usually a young person wanting to bolster his vocabulary. But I don't believe I've actually ever heard it spoken.
Quote
I believe that my understanding of that parable is the most logical and which does have an entrance and exit to it.
Well, that's
one opinion. Ever get nosebleeds at that altitude, bro? :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: MacPherson on January 07, 2009, 02:41:39 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
If you meant it as a slam on what I have been writing, then, please, desist from further puerile statements and keep to the topic at hand. :HeartThrob:
Just calling them as I see them, and will continue to poke yer ribs, as I take a notion.
Interesting thing about that word "puerile". I've seen people use it on the internet. Usually a young person wanting to bolster his vocabulary. But I don't believe I've actually ever heard it spoken.
Quote
I believe that my understanding of that parable is the most logical and which does have an entrance and exit to it.
Well, that's one opinion. Ever get nosebleeds at that altitude, bro? :icon_jokercolor:
Hi friend, Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. My altitude is so low I have to look up to everyone. O.K. false humility. But really, any knowledge espoused by me should not be construed to mean that I am higher than anyone else. Sometimes the best way to become perspicacious as to another's position is to cause one to explicate it in a way that is more apprehensible. Hence the questions and answers. This is also an excellent way to learn new things concerning one's position and other's positions as to scriptural matters. There seems to be a common thread from posters here who do not fully agree with what I have written on this topic that I am mean, biting, proud, etc. etc. etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone who truly knows me knows that I am meek and lowly of heart. But I will say this: I am like a pit bull dog and won't let go till I understand something.
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 04:45:11 PM
Hi friend, Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. My altitude is so low I have to look up to everyone. O.K. false humility. But really, any knowledge espoused by me should not be construed to mean that I am higher than anyone else. Sometimes the best way to become perspicacious as to another's position is to cause one to explicate it in a way that is more apprehensible.
Huh? :tease:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 07:20:28 PM
BOYS :grin: :grin:
Its a Mans Thang, NOW ,....... does anyone one have a Huge Train set lay out ,Bags me signal man , :laughing7:
Quote from: bobf on January 07, 2009, 12:45:44 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 06, 2009, 10:08:27 PMLikewise the sons of the kingdom. We know that a kingdom cannot literally beget sons. But the sons can be part of that kingdom and live amongst that kingdom.
Hmmm . . . a kingdom can not produce sons . .but what does the kingdom consist of? If it were not for the existence of people, there would be no kingdom. And those "in" the kingdom then have the ability to reproduce "after their own kind" which would then be "expanding" the kingdom by way of reproduction. There is a kingdom of heaven that is a spiritual reality in which we, as sons of God, enter into and much of our conversations, very similar to many we see on this forum even, are releasing seeds that fertilize the wombs which become impregnated with kingdom truths and eventually, those impregnated become further transformed by way of expansion as the life in our minds grows without our interferance of our carnal nature, until a new thing births in us that requires a new name . .a new identity . . .a new nature.
Perhaps this is why it's so difficult to label what it is I've become. It is a peculiar people that enters into the heavenlies where illogical things make the most sense. But it's all for the purpose for the edifying of the saints, the maturing of the bride, the reproduction of righteousness in us, through us, for us. All stemming from the very nature of the invisible God that causes us to be quickened and invigorated at the sound of another's voice as they relay the new thing that God has revealed to their spirit. "This" is the house that God established and Christ built on to in preparation for the welcoming of the bride. This is the land of the King. It's a land where all things natural represent all things spiritual. Where death and the dead can not comprehend. Through the intimate relationships each has with the Father through the Son, empowered by the Spirit, this kingdom can indeed become a reproductive place that will eventually cover the entire world. . . earth . . .the globe.
Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea
I just love pondering that. The knowledge of the glory of the Lord will not fill the earth until . . .it fills "my" earth. My flesh is finally consumed by the everlasting fire that purifies and permeates the glory of light and life. May I be so honored to become so heavenly minded in order to be of any earthly good.
:cloud9: AHHHHH.......wisdom utters her voice. Praise the Lord of glory, He is awesome in all of His ways. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Just out of curiosity, how do you folks think I would reply to Bob's latest post knowing what you know now about how I think on this matter?
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 09:06:07 PM
Just out of curiosity, how to you folks think I would reply to Bob's latest post knowing what you know now about how I think on this matter?
Tis easy as Pie Tony " Right, Lets go Back to the Beginning"....... :icon_flower: Just busting on ya pal, not meant to be nasty in any way :HeartThrob:
To be Honest, Ive never come across that type of request before , maybe other can answer bro. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 09:06:07 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do you folks think I would reply to Bob's latest post knowing what you know now about how I think on this matter?
:bdh:
Quote from: MacPherson on January 07, 2009, 10:26:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 09:06:07 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do you folks think I would reply to Bob's latest post knowing what you know now about how I think on this matter?
:bdh:
Dear Mac,
Your are supposed to kick a dead horse not club it. :laughing7:
Yikes Tony :icon_flower:
Not that it matters :icon_flower:
The term is Flog Bro..dates back centuries in this Isle , And Mc be a scot , so, Look out over ya Shoulder bud... :happygrin:
suppose that Atlantic does have its Language barriers after all :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:08:38 AM
Yikes Tony :icon_flower:
Not that it matters :icon_flower:
The term is Flog Bro..dates back centuries in this Isle , And Mc be a scot , so, Look out over ya Shoulder bud... :happygrin:
suppose that Atlantic does have its Language barriers after all :icon_flower:
Oh dear me Card, this is just getting worse by the minute... :icon_jokercolor:
:hijacked:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
Mc :icon_flower:
The thread is as good as Finished Bro,..well at least for now,..Its good that it ends on on some light hearted Jest bud, as the thread over all ,was very good :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2009, 12:40:33 AM
:cloud9: :laughing7:
agh,
where did you pop up from Card , :laughing7:
good to see ya Laughing :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: I'm in and out....thanks.....good to see you too, as always.... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2009, 12:47:53 AM
:cloud9: I'm in and out....thanks.....good to see you too, as always.... :HeartThrob:
Yo :icon_flower:
Thanks for ya Emails, Come the Morrow , all being WELL, ill hopefully get back to ya girl :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Mc :icon_flower:
The thread is as good as Finished Bro,..well at least for now,..Its good that it ends on on some light hearted Jest bud, as the thread over all ,was very good :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Aye, Laddie!
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2009, 12:40:33 AM
:cloud9: :laughing7:
agh,
where did you pop up from Card , :laughing7:
good to see ya Laughing :HeartThrob:
'Tis a wee joke betwixt Card and meself.
Quote from: MacPherson on January 08, 2009, 01:43:28 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Mc :icon_flower:
The thread is as good as Finished Bro,..well at least for now,..Its good that it ends on on some light hearted Jest bud, as the thread over all ,was very good :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Aye, Laddie!
Dont go confusing our cousins Bro, as One Celt speaking to Another.... :laughing7:
Now, If we were to intoduce the word sassenach, there really would be a WAR :icon_flower:
A war not that o of the Roses, but a REAL one. :icon_flower:
Quote from: MacPherson on January 08, 2009, 01:45:48 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2009, 12:40:33 AM
:cloud9: :laughing7:
agh,
where did you pop up from Card , :laughing7:
good to see ya Laughing :HeartThrob:
'Tis a wee joke betwixt Card and meself.
he ha Mc
Thanks for the understanding , Ever thought of Beating that Horse with a Caber Bud...ya Think it would move a Tab then? :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
And yes ,My dear Bro..If ya wouldnt mind ...Pour me a wee dram of that Fine Malt, 25 yrs plus if ya Please
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 01:53:13 AM
Quote from: MacPherson on January 08, 2009, 01:43:28 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Mc :icon_flower:
The thread is as good as Finished Bro,..well at least for now,..Its good that it ends on on some light hearted Jest bud, as the thread over all ,was very good :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Aye, Laddie!
Dont go confusing our cousins Bro, as One Celt speaking to Another.... :laughing7:
Now, If we were to intoduce the word sassenach, there really would be a WAR :icon_flower:
A war not that o of the Roses, but a REAL one. :icon_flower:
Dude, I was born and raised in So. California.
Quote from: MacPherson on January 08, 2009, 02:53:52 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 01:53:13 AM
Quote from: MacPherson on January 08, 2009, 01:43:28 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Mc :icon_flower:
The thread is as good as Finished Bro,..well at least for now,..Its good that it ends on on some light hearted Jest bud, as the thread over all ,was very good :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Aye, Laddie!
Dont go confusing our cousins Bro, as One Celt speaking to Another.... :laughing7:
Now, If we were to intoduce the word sassenach, there really would be a WAR :icon_flower:
A war not that o of the Roses, but a REAL one. :icon_flower:
Dude, I was born and raised in So. California.
Cant be Helped Mc, someone had too....No worries :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 02:00:02 AM
And yes ,My dear Bro..If ya wouldnt mind ...Pour me a wee dram of that Fine Malt, 25 yrs plus if ya Please
:icon_flower:
Chocolate or Vanilla?
Now I've got a hankering to hit a McDoanld's drive-thru.
Trying to hold off until Shamrock Shake season!
My error Bro...
No worries...please excuse me on the avatar YOURS looked awful Scottish and with the NAME MAC......, Maybe FLY an all american flag and let us Know..then Tits like me wont be misguided..Just a Thought?:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 03:06:09 AM
My error Bro...
No worries...please excuse me on the avatar YOURS looked awful Scottish and with the NAME MAC......, Maybe FLY an all american flag and let us Know..then Tits like me wont be misguided..Just a Thought?:
:cloud9: :laughing7: You're not the only misguided whatever you said, because I thought so too.....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2009, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 03:06:09 AM
My error Bro...
No worries...please excuse me on the avatar YOURS looked awful Scottish and with the NAME MAC......, Maybe FLY an all american flag and let us Know..then Tits like me wont be misguided..Just a Thought?:
:cloud9: :laughing7: You're not the only misguided whatever you said, because I thought so too.....
Yes indeed, were just discussing this PM, when you brought it up, hence my commentary to Card and the little joke between us. McPherson is a pseudonym. Can't remember why I chose it. And the pictures came later. The pictures however are from Scottish Highlands Games held in the US which I've attended.
In actuality I'm a 14 year old girl from Pakistan. Or not.
Tony wrote to bro. Bobf:
Since Jesus dispatches the angels when this eon is ending to kick out of the kingdom all the sons of the wicked one, how was the seed of the wicked one taken out of Paul since his conversion was almost 2000 years ago and the eon has not ended yet?
Remember the tares have to grow up with the wheat until the end of the eon and then at the end of the eon Jesus sends the angels to take out of the kingdom all the tares.
Bobf replied:
I believe I did answer. The ends of the eons were come upon Paul.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ends of the eons] are come.
Tony's reply:
O.K. friend, let's have take a look at what you have written and see if it will work, shall we?
Now then as I wrote before, our dear sister fireinfolding wrote that the eon ended when Christ either came or when He died on the cross (not really sure exactly as I'm going from memory). Either way, that causes major theological problems since Jesus told His disciples that all of Matthew 24 and 25 and John said that everything from Rev. chapter 1 up to chapter 20 would happen before the eon ended.
And Jesus told us that the tares and the wheat would be separated at the end of the eon by the angels.
Now then there seems to be disagreement between Bobf and fireinfolding since Bobf believes that the end of the eon came to Paul.
But let's really try to keep an open mind here and ask Father for further light concerning this.
Here is the actual verse dear bro. Bob quoted:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ends of the eons] are come.
Now I will quote the Concordant Literal:
1Co 10:11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."
Pleast note "consummations" is plural meaning more than one and "eons" is plural meaning more than one eon.
Note also Paul does not say that the end of the eon came.
Rather, Paul and those of his persuasion had attained to the consummations of the eons.
What does this mean? I think it means that when the eons consummate that God will be reconciled to all mankind, all mankind will be justified, saved, vivified or made alive, be at peace with God etc. and that Paul and the believers attained to that.
Now then, let's just say that Bobf is correct for the sake of argument, that the eon did end in Paul's day. If this is the case then all Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 and 25 and John spoke of in Revelation 1 through 19 occurred before the eon ended in Paul's day.
We know that didn't happen.
Therefore the eon Christ spoke of which was to end when all those things occur did not end in Paul's day and therefore Christ did not dispatch His angels into Israel to kick out all who are making snares and doing lawlessness. Because Christ said that separation is to take place at the end of the eon.
We are still in the present wicked eon (Paul wrote that to the Galatians in chapter 1 verse 4:
"Who gives Himself for our sins, so that He might extricate us out of the present wicked eon, according to the will of our God and Father,
So we know that the wicked eon in which the Son of Man was crucified and in which Paul lived had not ended yet since it was still present.
The next two eons will be marked by righteousness and not wickedness.
Therefore, it is my understanding that when Paul believed, the end of the eon did not happen and therefore Christ did not send His angels to separate the sons of the kingdom from the sons of the wicked one and did not kick out the sons of the wicked one when Paul believed.
The eon does not end each time someone believes. Christ does not send His angels into Israel each time a person believes and start the whole process over and over again of kicking out of the kingdom ALL making snares and doing lawlessness.
So If I were me, this is what I'd write in answer to Bobf. :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 02:36:04 PMO.K. friend, let's have take a look at what you have written and see if it will work, shall we?
Pleast note "consummations" is plural meaning more than one and "eons" is plural meaning more than one eon.
Note also Paul does not say that the end of the eon came.
Yes, I noted that in my brackets [ends of the eons]. If "end of the eon" must refer to the end (in time) of a certain age in history, then to be consistent, wouldn't "ends of the eons" also have to refer to the end (in time) of all ages in history?
QuoteNow then, let's just say that Bobf is correct for the sake of argument, that the eon did end in Paul's day. If this is the case then all Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 and 25 and John spoke of in Revelation 1 through 19 occurred before the eon ended in Paul's day.
We know that didn't happen.
I don't know that it did happen and will not pretend to be able to prove that it did happen. But as far as I can see Tony, the only way I could know those events did not happen would be to know that those passages are literal-only. Those passages could be speaking literally, figuratively, or both at the same time, couldn't they?
A few things that motivate me to doubt a literal-only interpretation of those passages:
- Jesus said "this generation shall not pass away till all these things are fulfilled." That alone should raise ALOT OF DOUBT that those events were not fulfilled.
- Jesus was telling them to watch and every generation to watch lest Jesus come as a thief and take them by surprise. The whole passage sounds immenent on those Jesus is speaking to.
- The descriptions of Jesus coming like a thief are upon the living - they are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage, just like in the days of Noah.
- In Acts 2 Peter said "THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and one of those things was " sun & moon would be darkened, which is one of the events described in Matthew 24-25 and in the book of Revelation.
- Ezekiel 12:21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.
If I say that Matthew 24-25 and Revelation are ~2000 or more years into the future from when given, am I not saying that those visions were "for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off" instead of "the days are at hand and the effect of EVERY VISION" and "IN YOUR DAYS...will I say the word are perform it"?
So please tell me how I
know that those passages are literal-only and could not be using physical symbols to represent spiritual events being fullfilled in that generation and each generation that is being told to watch?
Thanks,
Bob
Hi Bob,
Friend, please notice in Matthew 23:36 where Jesus told His audience: "Verily, I am saying to you: All these things will be arriving on this generation."
That generation did experience what Christ said would come upon them.
However, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:
Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36 "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (35) Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by." (36) Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."
Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.
THe may and the should are subjunctives.
"As we approach this question of the time of Christ's appearing, whether it is past or future, it should first of all be noted that in the Original, each of these statements of Jesus concerning His appearing (e.g., Matt.10:23b; 16:28; 24:34) is expressed in the subjunctive mood, sometimes with the conditional particle an (EVER) included. These grammatical features are reflected in the Concordant Version by the auxiliaries "should" and "may."
"The subjunctive mood calls attention to the contingent (i.e., dependent) nature of what is being affirmed. It speaks of the connection which obtains between what is affirmed and that upon which the affirmation depends for its fulfillment.
In the nature of things, if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is unrevisable and is certain to occur. But if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is not unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is revisable and is not certain to occur."
The whole article on "This Generation" may be read here: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html (http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html)
I realize it might not be easy reading but with careful reading it is understandable.
Now then, there is another possibility to what Christ said about "this generation." It is possible that in the resurrection spoken of in Daniel 12:2 that the generation Christ spoke to would see His appearing and all those events prior to it after they were resurrected:
Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
Notice the "eonian repulsion." Those for eonian repulsion are the sons of the wicked one. At the end of the eon Christ will send forth His angels and those sons of the wicked one will be repulsed out of the kingdom for the duration of that eon.
And Here is what Peter said:
Act 2:16-21 But this is that which has been declared through the prophet Joel: (17) And it shall be in the last days,' (God is saying) 'I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your youths visions shall be seeing, And your elders dreams shall be dreaming, (18) And surely on My men slaves and on My women slaves in those days shall I be pouring out from My spirit,' and they shall be prophesying." (19) And I will give miracles in heaven above, And signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and vapor pillars of smoke, (20) The sun shall be converted into darkness And the moon into blood Ere the coming of the day of the Lord, The great and advent day." (21) And it shall be that everyone, whosoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.'"
Please note that Joel and Peter say that "I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh." In Peter's day God's spirit was only poured out on a select few people in the upper room. Not only that, but the miracles in heaven and signs on the earth etc. etc. never came to pass . . . yet . . . but they will.
Yet look at what Peter says in chapter 3 of Acts:
Act 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
So we know that Israel as a nation had to repent before seasons of refreshing should come from the face of the Lord and before God would despatch Christ Jesus to come back to Israel.
Acts is an historical account of Israel's rejection of the offer and how Israel was set aside and the door of faith was opened to the nations. So, as to the prophecies coming to pass of Matthew 24 and 25 and Revelation 1-19, they are put on hold until the secret of Paul is finished
Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
So it is really due to the secret that only Paul knew that everything was put on hold for Israel including the finishing of the prophecies concerning Christ coming back. Once the complement of the nations does come then and only then will Matthew 24 and 25 and Revelation 1-19 take up again then "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."
We are still in the current wicked eon (Gal.1:4). When this eon ends the earth will know righteousness from pole to pole like never before for Christ will dwell with mankind.
If the eon ended in Christ or Paul's day the last two thousand years would be marked by wonderful righteousness all over the earth. But, sigh, such has not been the case.
Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..
Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon.
There is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return?
I don't buy that anymore. Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit. And Christ himself "is" spirit. Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE. How can you be ONE and only know in part?
No, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation. They were the ones that started their own ending.
This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.
(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/sports/pingpong/ping006.gif)
anyone for a game :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 09:53:23 PM
(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/sports/pingpong/ping006.gif)
anyone for a game :icon_flower:
I should have known . . .if anyone could find one, it'd be you!
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 09:24:19 PM
Hi Bob,
Friend, please notice in Matthew 23:36 where Jesus told His audience: "Verily, I am saying to you: All these things will be arriving on this generation."
That generation did experience what Christ said would come upon them.
However, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:
Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36 "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (35) Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by." (36) Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."
Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.
THe may and the should are subjunctives.
Hi Tony, I'm not any kind of expert in Greek, but I do know for a fact that a verb being in the subjunctive mood does not have to impart "maybeness" to the verb in question. The subjunctive mood can be employed (at least in some situations) when the action or event is certain to come to pass. I can give you definite examples of this, but I'm not sure that grammtical form of those examples are similar to this one, so they may or may not apply to this passage.
This might not be the best example, but it's in the context:
Mark 13:35 Watch ye, therefore, for ye have not known when the lord of the house doth come, at even, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or at the morning; 36 lest, having come suddenly, he
may find you sleeping.
If a person is not watching and Christ comes suddenly, He will find him sleeping in the sense of the passage, i.e. not being prepared.
I'll take a look at the rest of your post when I get a chance and maybe find some better examples about the subjuntive.
Could you tell me how you
know those passages are literal-only and therefore have not come to pass?
Thanks,
Bob
Hi Bob,
1st off, Matthew 24 and 25 were not spoken in parables or symbolically.
Mat 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many."
24:5=Literal
Mat 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation."
24:6=Literal
Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."
Mat 24:8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs.
24:7,8=Literal
Mat 24:9 Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name."
Mat 24:10 And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another."
24:9,10 = Literal. We know from many other scriptures about the great tribulation to come upon them.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many."
24:11 = Literal. How could it be figurative?
Mat 24:12 And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling."
Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
24:12,13 = Literal.
Mat 24:14 And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving."
24:14 = Literal
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
Mat 24:16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.
Mat 24:19 Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"
Mat 24:20 Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted."
24:15-22 = Literal. Daniel did not write those those things as a parable or as figurative, symbolic.
Mat 24:23 Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! or 'Here!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."
Mat 24:25 Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
24:23-27 = Literal. Why couldn't false christs and false prophets literally come about?
Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered."
24:28 = Literal but with veiled meaning. When Christ comes, His disciples will really be gathered to Him like a vulture gathers around a corpse. His presence will be very noticeable like lightening from east to west is visible.
Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
24:29 = Literal. The solar system will either move into a intergalactic dust cloud. This will be due to the powers of the heavens being shaken. The solar dust will block the sun and moon and as the particles go through the admosphere it will look like what we call "shooting stars."
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."
24:30 = literal
Mat 24:31 And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities."
24:31 = literal
Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn a parable: Whenever its bough may already be becoming tender, and the leaves sprouting out, you know that summer is near."
Mat 24:33 Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near-at the doors."
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."
24:32-35 Well, and I said Christ never spoke in parables in Matthew 24 and 25 but here is a parable!
Mat 24:36 Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."
24:36 = Literal
Mat 24:37 For even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:38 For as they were in those days before the deluge, masticating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all away, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
24:37-39 = Literal
Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.
24:40,41 = Literal. The one taken is the one cast out of the kingdom by the angels since they are a son of the wicked one.
Mat 24:42 Be watching, then, for you are not aware on what day your Lord is coming."
Mat 24:43 Now that be knowing, for if the householder were aware in what watch the thief is coming, he would watch, and would not let his house be tunneled into."
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also become ready, for in an hour which you are not supposing, the Son of Mankind is coming."
Mat 24:45 Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent slave whom the lord places over his household to give them nourishment in season?
Mat 24:46 Happy is that slave whom his lord, coming, will be finding doing thus."
Mat 24:47 Verily, I am saying to you that over all his possessions will he be placing him."
Mat 24:48 Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'"
Mat 24:49 and should begin to beat his fellow slaves, yet may be eating and drinking with the drunken,
Mat 24:50 the lord of that slave will be arriving on a day for which he is not hoping, and in an hour which he knows not,
Mat 24:51 and shall be cutting him asunder, and will be appointing his part with the hypocrites. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."
24:42-51 = Literal
The last verse might be better translated: (DRB) "And shall separate him and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The angels will come and cut him away from the rest of Israel and cast him out of the kingdom to have to live among the nations.
Now the judging of the nations as to how they treated Christ's brethren.
This judging is when He comes back. It is all literal. He is going to turn the nations literally into sheep and kids (or goats). Not. But you get my drift.
Mat 25:31 Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
Mat 25:32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
Mat 25:33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left."
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world."
Mat 25:35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
Mat 25:37 Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
Mat 25:38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
Mat 25:39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'"
Mat 25:40 And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'"
Mat 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
Mat 25:42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
Mat 25:43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'"
Mat 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Christ is so identified with those suffering Jewish believers who went through their great tribulation that anything good or bad the nations did to His brethren they did to Him.
I see no good reason not to take this literally.
I left out the story of the wise and foolish virgins since it is a story of preparedness that they must go through to be ready for His return.
Tony
Tony,
Could you put into a few short words or bullets what is the "test" that tells you that a given passage of scripture is literal-only?
Thanks,
Bob
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 09:24:19 PMHowever, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:
Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36 "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (35) Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by." (36) Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."
Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.
THe may and the should are subjunctives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/subj-detail-frame.htm
QUOTE:
Subjunctive of Emphatic Negation
a) This is a way to
strongly deny that something will happen.
It is the strongest way to negate something in Greek.
b) It is formed by using a double negative (ou mh) with an aorist subjunctive verb (or possibly future indicative). While ou plus the indicative denies a certainty,
ou mh plus the subjunctive denies even the potentiality.
c) It is translated "certainly not" or "never", with the English future tense.
d) This use is found primarily in the reported sayings of Jesus and in quotes from the Septuagint. Outside of these two occurrences, it is used only rarely.
e) Examples:
i) Matthew 24:35
"but my words will not at all (certainly not) pass away."
"oiJ de; lovgoi mou ouj mh; parevlqwsin."
ii) Matthew 5:20
"unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of the heavens".
"ejan mh; perisseuvsh/ uJmw'n hJ dikaiosuvnh plei'on tw'n grammatevwn kai; Farisaivwn, ouj mh; eijsevlqhte eij" th;n basileivan tw'n oujranw'n."
iii) Hebrews 13:5
"I will not at all (certainly not) fail you, nor will I ever leave you."
"Ouj mhv se ajnw' oujd ouj mhv se ejgkatalivpw:"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So according to this, Jesus was saying in the
strongest way possible that that generation would certainly not pass away till all these things are fulfilled.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
but in about 40 years later, we are told this:
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
what happened during that 40 years:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Colossians 1:23)
Col 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
Col 1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
The solar system will either (?) move into a intergalactic dust cloud. This will be due to the powers of the heavens being shaken. The solar dust will block the sun and moon and as the particles go through the admosphere (atmosphere) it will look like what we call "shooting stars."
"If you take your eyes off the star momentarily; it may change direction."
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/471/471121bgaqz2vhp8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
peacemaker
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 12:00:42 AM
Tony,
Could you put into a few short words or bullets what is the "test" that tells you that a given passage of scripture is literal-only?
Thanks,
Bob
Dear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?
When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.
If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.
If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 05:26:09 AMDear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?
When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.
If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.
If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?
Good questions.... honestly I believe the answer is that is has to be revealed by Jesus Christ.
How did Paul know in Galations 4:24 that the stuff he referred to in Genesis was an allegory? I mean it sounds purely literal, right? Do you see anything in the text in Genesis that would tell Paul it was an allegory?
Where did the hearers go wrong interpeting "destroy this temple..." literally?
Why did Jesus say the JTB was Elijah who was to come? I mean JTB was not literally Elijah, right?
BTW Tony, I'm not saying that if something is figurative it can not also be literal.
Quote from: Zeek on January 05, 2009, 06:17:25 AM
thanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts.
wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I see this as:
narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).
or
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,
crushed, ground first,
then converted,
then broken??
thanks
z
Hey Zeek,
Was just perusing the scriptures and read this and thought of your question.
Deuteronomy 9:21 And I took
your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it,
and ground it very small, even until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.
Quote from: Nathan on January 08, 2009, 09:47:13 PM
Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..
Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon.
Dear friend, yes, we've been over this before but it seems you have not really grasped the issue of the darkness yet.
For instance, Jesus did not say that the eon would end when He died. The disciples asked Him when the end of the eon would come and what would take place to mark its end. Jesus never said: The eon will end when I die. The sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light when I die. Do you understand that?
Now let's get directly to this darkness matter and how it relates to the ending of the eon in Matthew 24. Please, Nathan, I beg you to really try to understand this so we don't have to keep going round and round the mulberry bush.
Please dear brother, note the word affliction:
Mat 24:15-21 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);" (16) then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. (17) Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house. (18) And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak. (19) Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!" (20) Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath, (21) for
then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
The great affliction comes AFTER the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
Now when is the sun darkened? Here is the hint by Jesus:
Mat 24:29
Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
Please notice that
the sun is darkened AFTER the abomination and
AFTER the great affliction of the JEWS.
QuoteThere is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return?
Jesus said Himself He didn't know the day He would return, only the Father knew that. Just because Jesus can't convince you of that does not mean He is wrong. :bigGrin:
QuoteI don't buy that anymore. Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit. And Christ himself "is" spirit. Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE. How can you be ONE and only know in part?
Dear friend, maybe you need to hear what Jesus said about Him being spirit:
Luk 24:39 "Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for
a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
Jesus said He wasn't a spirit.
QuoteNo, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation. They were the ones that started their own ending.
This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.
Some would disagree with you. If 70A.D. is the completing of ALL Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 and 25 then there are major eschatological problems with that.
Nathan, can you at least see what I am saying as to the sun being darkened and Jesus not being a spirit? Can you now see that when the sun was darkened when Christ died is not the fulfillment of Matthew 24?
Love,
Tony
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 07:13:29 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 05:26:09 AMDear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?
When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.
If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.
If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?
QuoteGood questions.... honestly I believe the answer is that is has to be revealed by Jesus Christ.
QuoteHow did Paul know in Galations 4:24 that the stuff he referred to in Genesis was an allegory? I mean it sounds purely literal, right? Do you see anything in the text in Genesis that would tell Paul it was an allegory?
Good question. I wish I had a good answer. I have an idea but not even I'm convinced of it yet. :bigGrin:
QuoteWhere did the hearers go wrong interpeting "destroy this temple..." literally?
I think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
QuoteWhy did Jesus say the JTB was Elijah who was to come? I mean JTB was not literally Elijah, right?
This is what Jesus said, the lightfact type is not in the Greek text:
Mat 11:14 "
And, if you are willing to receive him,
he is Elijah who is
about to be coming."
Mat 26:26 Now at their eating,
Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat.
This is My body."
Often when "estin" is used in Greek it shows us a metaphor: this is that, i.e. "She is a tank" when speaking of a weight challenged woman. If the Greeks wanted us to know that something literally is something else they left out the "estin" or the "is."
Jesus's body was not literally the bread He broke and neither was John the baptist literally Elijah.
QuoteBTW Tony, I'm not saying that if something is figurative it can not also be literal.
And I'm not saying that if something is literal that it has to be figurative. :happy3: Think about that for a while and you'll go batty.
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 08, 2009, 09:47:13 PM
Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..
Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon.
Dear friend, yes, we've been over this before but it seems you have not really grasped the issue of the darkness yet.
For instance, Jesus did not say that the eon would end when He died. The disciples asked Him when the end of the eon would come and what would take place to mark its end. Jesus never said: The eon will end when I die. The sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light when I die. Do you understand that?
Now let's get directly to this darkness matter and how it relates to the ending of the eon in Matthew 24. Please, Nathan, I beg you to really try to understand this so we don't have to keep going round and round the mulberry bush.
Please dear brother, note the word affliction:
Mat 24:15-21 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);" (16) then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. (17) Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house. (18) And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak. (19) Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!" (20) Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath, (21) for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
The great affliction comes AFTER the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
Now when is the sun darkened? Here is the hint by Jesus:
Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
Please notice that the sun is darkened AFTER the abomination and AFTER the great affliction of the JEWS.
QuoteThere is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return?
Jesus said Himself He didn't know the day He would return, only the Father knew that. Just because Jesus can't convince you of that does not mean He is wrong. :bigGrin:
QuoteI don't buy that anymore. Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit. And Christ himself "is" spirit. Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE. How can you be ONE and only know in part?
Dear friend, maybe you need to hear what Jesus said about Him being spirit:
Luk 24:39 "Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
Jesus said He wasn't a spirit.
QuoteNo, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation. They were the ones that started their own ending.
This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.
Some would disagree with you. If 70A.D. is the completing of ALL Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 and 25 then there are major eschatological problems with that.
Nathan, can you at least see what I am saying as to the sun being darkened and Jesus not being a spirit? Can you now see that when the sun was darkened when Christ died is not the fulfillment of Matthew 24?
Love,
Tony
Tony, I've never stated that I "didn't" see what you were saying . . what I have stated is . . .there is so much more to benefit from than just focusing on the literal piece of everything. Your answers are repetitive as are your arguments.
I've made things as plain as I can . . . and everything I see has been based on Scripture, just not adhered to it. By that I mean, the Word "points" to Life as a sign points to a city. But the sign is not the city anymore than the written Word is Life. God gave us a blueprint of his nature. We are fashioned after that nature . .which then tells me we are also fashioned after that blueprint.
The blueprint is the tabernacle. God explained that to Moses when he built it that it was a "pattern". And as such, everything stems from that . .which means that just there are three dimensions to that, there are three dimensions to God . .to us . .and to his Word . .so rather than assume some things are to be taken literal whereas others are to be taken spiritual . . . I believe EVERYTHING was meant to be understood literally TO THEM and EVERYTHING is to be appled morally . . .and EVERYTHING is to be applied Spiritually. And in each realm of those three things, every verse applies.
It's great that some see the literal perspective . . .and others really have the moral value down . .and others still see the spiritual perspectives . . . but the truth is . . .all three are accurate and all three have benefit. BUT there are different levels of benefit. When Scripture points out that my mind is always at emnity . . . then I take that seriously and don't let my head lead the way. And then when it says lean not on your own understanding . .that only affirms even more that this isn't about what my mind thinks it knows. Then when I read where the spirit speaks to my spirit . . .Chirst is a spirit, I'm to walk in the spirit . . . it becomes clearer to me that "that" is the realm I'm to pursue.
The entire arguement being presented here in Mathew 24 and 25 is that you say Jesus went through all that trouble of getting the disciples all concerned about something that wasn't to happen for 2,000 years later. Now think about this . . you keep insisting I think in things you say . . .let's turn the tables for just a sec. If the person you respect the most came to you and said "God just spoke to me and 2000 years from today, the world is going to be completely destroyed . . ." Just how concerned would you be?
There is NO indication that any of the things Jesus shared in those two chapters were to be things happening 2000 years later. He never says that it's going to happen later . . .in fact in every place he brings it up, there is an urgency to the message and "the time is at hand" is repeated much. As for his reference to Daniel . . . What he was doing was breaking a seal that had been placed on the scroll that Daniel received hundreds of years earlier. There is only one worthy to break that scroll . . .what you see in Revelation is what Jesus did right before their eyes. He opened the book that had once been sealed.
This is why we bounce the ball back and forth bro . . . you ignore all the signs that point to what I'm saying, and I choose not to apply them the way you're saying it. It's not that I can't see it . .in fact it's just the opposite. I "do" see it and I disagree with how it's being applied.
Many people here rely on their logic when applying Scripture . . .well . .it just makes absolutely no sense for Jesus to reopen a can of worms that Daniel started with, for the sole purpose of closing the can for another 2000 years. And say Jesus "would have" (in your opinion) tried to tell them that they were going to experience these things . . . just how differently would he have to have worded it?
The sun . .moon, and stars . . .is ISRAEL . . . and ISRAEL's identity went black in A.D. 70. What happened through the cross that manifested darkness to the world, happened to a nation that rejected the only light in existence. Their glory no longer would shine.
Nathan, when Adam and Eve sinned God told them some good news about the seed. Why would He tell them that when after all, He knew the Seed would not appear for thousands of years later? Yet they thought their next son would be the deliverer and the next and the next.
So Jesus is able to do the same thing with the disciples in stating something about to be happenning when actually it would take thousands of years before it happened.
Jesus also told His listeners that if they believe in Him they would never die. Yet they did. But thousands of years later, in the resurrection, they will be made alive and those who believed in Him will never die.
Remember, God's clock is not our clock.
BTW you keep changing your story. First you state that when Christ died and the sun was darkened that this was the fulfillment of Matt.24 but now you state that 70 A.D. is the fulfillment of the sun being darkened. At least that's how I take what you are saying.
Nathan, I know I brought this up before but it needs repeating:
Act 3:18-21 Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills. (19) Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Do you see that? The nation of Israel had to repent so that . . .
Obviously Peter understood Matthew's account about "this generation" better than we 2000 years later because he shows that the national repentance must come first then Christ Jesus would come. He also shows that heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restoration of all. Since they did not repent, they were set aside according to Paul's secret here:
Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
And since the restoration of all did not occur, Christ has not come back yet and all those things in Matt.24 must occur before He comes back and Acts 3 and Romans 11:25,26.
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 cor15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 05:04:41 PM
The sun . .moon, and stars . . .is ISRAEL . . . and ISRAEL's identity went black in A.D. 70. What happened through the cross that manifested darkness to the world, happened to a nation that rejected the only light in existence. Their glory no longer would shine.
one last time, i'll post this perspective on Israel's identity went "black"
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/lights_went_out.htm
Love this cjhapter bro! amen! the conclusion :HeartThrob:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Cr 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Cr 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.
1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 05:19:24 PM
Nathan, when Adam and Eve sinned God told them some good news about the seed. Why would He tell them that when after all, He knew the Seed would not appear for thousands of years later? Yet they thought their next son would be the deliverer and the next and the next.
So Jesus is able to do the same thing with the disciples in stating something about to be happenning when actually it would take thousands of years before it happened.
Jesus also told His listeners that if they believe in Him they would never die. Yet they did. But thousands of years later, in the resurrection, they will be made alive and those who believed in Him will never die.
Remember, God's clock is not our clock.
BTW you keep changing your story. First you state that when Christ died and the sun was darkened that this was the fulfillment of Matt.24 but now you state that 70 A.D. is the fulfillment of the sun being darkened. At least that's how I take what you are saying.
Nathan, I know I brought this up before but it needs repeating:
Act 3:18-21 Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills. (19) Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Do you see that? The nation of Israel had to repent so that . . .
Obviously Peter understood Matthew's account about "this generation" better than we 2000 years later because he shows that the national repentance must come first then Christ Jesus would come. He also shows that heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restoration of all. Since they did not repent, they were set aside according to Paul's secret here:
Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
And since the restoration of all did not occur, Christ has not come back yet and all those things in Matt.24 must occur before He comes back and Acts 3 and Romans 11:25,26.
Look . . . it's the pattern we're to allow ourselves to be fitted into. . .not our logic. What's your pattern? Are you three dimensional or not? Can you not see things in more than one dimension or not? I didn't "change" my story . . .I shared more than one dimension of it. It's what I see, it's how I see it and it does fit the pattern dimensionally. God established a physical temple and gave physical commandments of how that temple should be run. 1st dimension. The symbolization of the things and activities within that temple represented different aspects of the relationship between a nation and the Father . . .2nd dimension. What? know ye not "you" are a temple of the holy ghost?? It took a physical temple (dimension one) that represented a nation's cleansing process by the "activity" of ministering in the temple (dimension two) and took it "internal" Which is what I've been saying all along . .dimension three.
There was a physical darkness when the fulfillment of Christ purpose was completed at the cross . .dimension one. But when the nation rejected that, darkness came to the nation . .dimension 2. And when an INDIVIDUAL rejects the fact that Christ is the Messiah, they to walk in a darkness WITHIN themselves . .dimension 3. It's not logic I follow, it's a pattern. Walking in my own understanding of what I think and comprehend is not walking in faith, nor is it walking in spirit.
The disciples had a terrible time understanding the things that Jesus said and did, but they never rejected him. And that's the crux. I don't care whether people understand it all or not . . . I don't understand half of the things I say either . . .but what I to try to stress is don't "reject" the things being said. Because as you said yourself . . .there are seeds being planted that come to manifest at a later time. My argument with this perspective you adhere to is that you're taking something that was meant as literal for "them" and you're jumping ahead 2,000 years later and saying it's to be taken literally now.
"I'm" saying it's literal intent has already manifested. And yes, we're to apply it now, but not literally. We're to apply it "inwardly".
The thing with Adam and Eve . . .God didn't explain to them of "things that must come" as Jesus did. He didn't say to them "in this generation the seed will (or "may" or "kinda") bruise . . ." Granted, it was a foretelling of the fact that inspite of their disorder, order would be restored. But that's not the context in which Jesus was sharing with the disciples. It's apples and oranges.
As far as them never dying . .I disagree with you there as well. I believe it happened just as Jesus said it did. Life isn't waiting to still come to those that believed and physically died. Life came the instant they submitted themselves to it. . .THEN. And as a result, their spirits never had to experience another separation (death) ever again. They never died.
And unfortunately I'm still not seeing the relevance of your passage in Acts about Israel having to repent . . .what's the point you're trying to make with that? What's the argument that you're applying that to? Oh, wait . . .you're looking at the fact that the nation of Israel must repent before Christ would return . . .sigh . . .which is still seeing it as a physical, bodily return, rather than a spiritual return to AN INDIVIDUAL'S spirit. Have you never seen Christ in you? Is that not a "return" of Christ to "your" earth?
Jesus professed himself as a king . . . he was mocked at the cross for it for the very same reasons the church, including yourself this time, are expecting him to phyisically rule this physcial earth. The disciples themselves . . .even AFTER he died, was buried, and then resurrected, they STILL thought he was going to take the LITERAL and PHYSCIAL throne. But what did he say? He said his KINGDOM is NOT of THIS WORLD . . .which means his kingdom is SPIRITUAL . . ..INVISIBLE . .not PHYSICAL. But yet we still think he's going to come to this PHYSICAL earth??? What makes us any different than the disciples 2000 years ago?
I will say one thing for you Tony . . .the more I try to explain and clarify what I see . . the more clearer it becomes to me. I should at least be thanking you for that much. Pursue the spirit . .walk in the spirit . . .cuz in the end . . . he's going to rule and reign in the physical? Natural mind twisting around and mixing flesh and spirit . . .oil and water . . .you ever actually try to do that? Mix oil with water? I don't mean just pour a quart of oil in a gallon of water . . .I mean really "try" to mix the two . . .like . .getting your egg beaters and really blending in the oil and water . . .you know what you get? You get a clouded mixture of the two. And when you leave the laws of physics to themselves . .the two will eventually separate once again on their own.
It's the same way here . . . we mix our reasoning with spiritual truth and we conclude in a cloud of something that we can't accurately call truth but because we know there's oil in it, we try to sell it off as something valuable. It isn't my mind that rightly divides . . .how can something that's at enmity have the ability to rightly divide anything? It's the Word IN ME that does the dividing.
Bottom line . . .I "have been' (past tense) seated with him in high places . .it's already a done deal. I don't have to wait for anymore physical manifestations for anything to be complete in me . .it's already done spiritually. My physical nature simply goes through the maturity "process" of growing into the awareness of all things already complete. The earth groans for the manifestation of the sons of God . . .the carnal man craves for physical manifestations of what's already complete in the spirit. When we walk in the spiritual realm, we will see the spiritual completion in all things.
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 05:04:41 PM
The blueprint is the tabernacle. God explained that to Moses when he built it that it was a "pattern". And as such, everything stems from that . .which means that just there are three dimensions to that, there are three dimensions to God . .to us . .and to his Word . .so rather than assume some things are to be taken literal whereas others are to be taken spiritual . . . I believe EVERYTHING was meant to be understood literally TO THEM and EVERYTHING is to be appled morally . . .and EVERYTHING is to be applied Spiritually. And in each realm of those three things, every verse applies.
It's great that some see the literal perspective . . .and others really have the moral value down . .and others still see the spiritual perspectives . . . but the truth is . . .all three are accurate and all three have benefit. BUT there are different levels of benefit. When Scripture points out that my mind is always at emnity . . . then I take that seriously and don't let my head lead the way. And then when it says lean not on your own understanding . .that only affirms even more that this isn't about what my mind thinks it knows. Then when I read where the spirit speaks to my spirit . . .Chirst is a spirit, I'm to walk in the spirit . . . it becomes clearer to me that "that" is the realm I'm to pursue. Quote
:cloud9: YES! :thumbsup: :goodpost: :Urock: :happyclap:
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 06:50:44 PM
. . .you ever actually try to do that? Mix oil with water? I don't mean just pour a quart of oil in a gallon of water . . .I mean really "try" to mix the two . . .like . .getting your egg beaters and really blending in the oil and water . . .you know what you get? You get a clouded mixture of the two. And when you leave the laws of physics to themselves . .the two will eventually separate once again on their own.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: I've shared this before, but the analogy the Lord gave me was taking some earth, water and oil and putting them into a jar and shaking them. The earth goes to the bottom, the water in the middle, and the oil rises to the top. All of creation (and it's laws) manifest His glory, and if you get the pattern understanding down FIRST, all the rest of it opens itself up like the book that it is, and witnesses to the Word that is Spirit. Blessings....
Nathan and Cardinal--
I agree with everything you say, but can't we look forward to a time when the world is run by the Christ--that is, when the government is on his shoulders in a literal sense? Not just my life and your life but everyone?
What about this?
John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world [kosmos]. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world [kosmos] has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
The reason I don't think that is the intent is because my goal is not to enter into a physcial realm . . .I'm already there. My goal is to enter into the spiritual. But what the church wants me to believe is the purpose of entering into the spiritual is so that the natural can manifest perfection.
Now . . .having said that . . .
I "do" believe there is a completion in ALL things where the natural "WILL" experience this perfected place once and for all. BUT in doing so . . the natural realm will return to it's original order of things where the SPIRITUAL realm will be predominant. Just as it was in the garden. The earth shouldn't be my focus or emphasis.
It's like this stupid reality show they have now where they have all these models competing against each other thinking that the competition is about their looks when secretly, the competition is about their personalities just as much as their looks. The viewer gets to know that ahead of time . .but not the participants.
For me, it's the same spiritually. The emphasis is always on the natural realm. . .but the original intent has always been in the spiritual. They can't compete with each other because God gave one the authority to "be" over the other. You can't see the end from the beginning when you're in the flesh . .but you most definitely can when you're in the spirit.
For me, the movement where they "name it and claim it" is a perversion of the original intent as well. The only way I can "claim" healing, is when my spirit reveals it to my mind to where I can see what is already done in the spiritual realm, then I'm given the power to release and to bind in the natural. But it all comes by relationship with the Father who reveals all to all, that he is all "in" all.
Faith comes by hearing . . .it's not hearing words, it's hearing sound. "My sheep will know me by the "sound" of my voice." We dwell on the words when our emphasis should be more on the "sound" of the voice. What tramsforms noise into sound is Love. Which again, is not an emotion, it's a person. It'd be saying the same thing if you inserted without the lake of fire one is nothing more than a clanging cymbal. The lake of fire is Love, they are one and the same in that they are the Father. He is my river, He is my desert. He is my Day, he is my night.
Trying to logically comprehend that will only lead me to a headache.
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
BTW I think your idea would not only have to account for Paul knowing the allegory, but also that Paul expected others to have known the alleogry too, before he explained it to them.
QuoteBottom line . . .I "have been' (past tense) seated with him in high places . .it's already a done deal. I don't have to wait for anymore physical manifestations for anything to be complete in me . .it's already done spiritually. My physical nature simply goes through the maturity "process" of growing into the awareness of all things already complete. The earth groans for the manifestation of the sons of God . . .the carnal man craves for physical manifestations of what's already complete in the spirit. When we walk in the spiritual realm, we will see the spiritual completion in all things.
Nathan, If you are seated with Christ now I guess you don't have anything to look forward to in the future of actually coming into the real seating with Christ? :dontknow:
This life is probably as good as it will get for you too? The salvation you experience now is it? You can walk now as if alive from among the dead but once you die that's it? No further reality? :dontknow:
Quote from: NathanI "do" believe there is a completion in ALL things where the natural "WILL" experience this perfected place once and for all. BUT in doing so . . the natural realm will return to it's original order of things where the SPIRITUAL realm will be predominant. Just as it was in the garden. The earth shouldn't be my focus or emphasis.
It's like this stupid reality show they have now where they have all these models competing against each other thinking that the competition is about their looks when secretly, the competition is about their personalities just as much as their looks. The viewer gets to know that ahead of time . .but not the participants.
For me, it's the same spiritually. The emphasis is always on the natural realm. . .but the original intent has always been in the spiritual. They can't compete with each other because God gave one the authority to "be" over the other. You can't see the end from the beginning when you're in the flesh . .but you most definitely can when you're in the spirit.
Yes, well that's the Adam and Eve problem--the minute their eyes were opened, they became blind.
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.--Hebrews 11
[things which are]
"seen"G991
βλέπω
blepōblep'-o
A primary verb;
to look at (literally or figuratively): - behold, beware, lie, look (on, to), perceive, regard, see, sight, take heed. Compare G3700.
..were not made of[things which]
"do appear"G5316
φαίνω
phainōfah'ee-no
Prolongation
for the base of G5457;
to lighten (shine), that is, show (transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative): - appear, seem, be seen, shine, X think.
G5457
φῶς
phōsfoce
From an obsoleteφάω phaō
(to shine or make manifest, especially by rays; compare G5316 and G5346); luminousness (in the widest application, natural or artificial, abstract or concrete, literal or figurative): - fire, light.
This is why the 'name it and claim it' works. Words are very important. Every one of his words is precious and most carefully placed. And, so should our words be also, because faith has a substance and the worlds are framed by the word of God.
A word is dead
When it is said--
Some say.
I say--
It just
Begins to live
That day.--Emily Dickenson
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
This piece that Bob has quoted still puzzles me. You're saying (Tony) that is "must" be literal because the temple Jesus was literally referring to "was" destroyed . . .then you say that Matthew 24 and 25 was not for "that" generation . . . that doesn't make any sense to me. "If" the temple "was" destroyed THEN . . how can you not see the rest of everything else stated there also happened THEN as well? When was the Temple then destroyed . .literally? It was in A.D. 70 was it not? So why then isn't the rest of what was said also intended for "that" generation "then" as well????
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 08:55:26 PM
QuoteBottom line . . .I "have been' (past tense) seated with him in high places . .it's already a done deal. I don't have to wait for anymore physical manifestations for anything to be complete in me . .it's already done spiritually. My physical nature simply goes through the maturity "process" of growing into the awareness of all things already complete. The earth groans for the manifestation of the sons of God . . .the carnal man craves for physical manifestations of what's already complete in the spirit. When we walk in the spiritual realm, we will see the spiritual completion in all things.
Nathan, If you are seated with Christ now I guess you don't have anything to look forward to in the future of actually coming into the real seating with Christ? :dontknow:
This life is probably as good as it will get for you too? The salvation you experience now is it? You can walk now as if alive from among the dead but once you die that's it? No further reality? :dontknow:
Are you kidding me??? That would be then saying there "is" in end to the things of the kingdom . .that there "are" boundaries. That there is a ceiling, a cap . .a roof.
There is NO end to our relationship with Christ. Whether be it here in the flesh or when all things are restored to the original order . . .the relationship between us and God is infinitive.
Out of that whole book I wrote . .that's the only thing your going to pick at???
I like that Nate ! there is alot about sound in the Scriptures bro , thanks for the reminder !
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 08:57:25 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
This piece that Bob has quoted still puzzles me. You're saying (Tony) that is "must" be literal because the temple Jesus was literally referring to "was" destroyed . . .then you say that Matthew 24 and 25 was not for "that" generation . . . that doesn't make any sense to me. "If" the temple "was" destroyed THEN . . how can you not see the rest of everything else stated there also happened THEN as well? When was the Temple then destroyed . .literally? It was in A.D. 70 was it not? So why then isn't the rest of what was said also intended for "that" generation "then" as well????
there is alot going on in those verses, and there is some that believe in the adjustment of the eons, but be that as it may, the unveiling of Jesus Christ IS WAS and WILL BE:
3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?"
4 And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you.
5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.
6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring;
but not as yet is the consummation.
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see
not yet all things put under him.
1 cro 15;23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
chuckt
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
BTW I think your idea would not only have to account for Paul knowing the allegory, but also that Paul expected others to have known the alleogry too, before he explained it to them.
Dear Bob,
Just because Paul brought out an allegory concerning the bond woman and free does not mean EVERYTHING is an allegory in Scripture.
Neither the prophets, nor any writer in the new testament presents the things happening in Matt.24,25 as allegorical. No, not even one.
Did Christ die for our sins or should that be taken to mean something alltogether different?
All the Scriptures in the O.T. concerning the coming Messiah (Christ); were they to be taken as allegorical with no real happenning?
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:05:48 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 08:57:25 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
This piece that Bob has quoted still puzzles me. You're saying (Tony) that is "must" be literal because the temple Jesus was literally referring to "was" destroyed . . .then you say that Matthew 24 and 25 was not for "that" generation . . . that doesn't make any sense to me. "If" the temple "was" destroyed THEN . . how can you not see the rest of everything else stated there also happened THEN as well? When was the Temple then destroyed . .literally? It was in A.D. 70 was it not? So why then isn't the rest of what was said also intended for "that" generation "then" as well????
there is alot going on in those verses, and there is some that believe in the adjustment of the eons, but be that as it may, the unveiling of Jesus Christ IS WAS and WILL BE:
3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?"
4 And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you.
5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.
6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 cro 15;23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
chuckt
wow awesome Chuck! thanks bro for posting !!
Quotewow awesome Chuck! thanks bro for posting !!
seems like you are the only one reading my post's :Gtantrum: :boydance: :Egyptdance2: :hithere:
hey dont tell anyone, im
neither a preterist nor a futurist :Gclap:
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 08:57:25 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
This piece that Bob has quoted still puzzles me. You're saying (Tony) that is "must" be literal because the temple Jesus was literally referring to "was" destroyed . . .then you say that Matthew 24 and 25 was not for "that" generation . . . that doesn't make any sense to me. "If" the temple "was" destroyed THEN . . how can you not see the rest of everything else stated there also happened THEN as well? When was the Temple then destroyed . .literally? It was in A.D. 70 was it not? So why then isn't the rest of what was said also intended for "that" generation "then" as well????
Dear Nathan, if the literal temple was destroyed, and it was, as Christ said it would be, but Christ did not say that the temple being destroyed would mark the end of the eon. He said the temple would be destroyed before His disciples asked Him what would take place which would mark the end of the eon (Matt.24:3). So it is logical to see that the temple would be destroyed and then Christ tells them what will happen as the eon ends. Get it?
The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But 70 A.D. was not the end of the eon.
All the things Jesus said would happen to mark the end of the eon never happened yet.
Why didn't that generation see it? Because it didn't happen, that's why. Was Jerusalem separated into three parts by the great earthquake? Did all the cities of the nations fall? Was the majority of humanity wiped out by plagues and pestilence etc.? If all the threatenings of what is coming on this earth is just one big spiritual illusion then what is mankind to learn from it?
Again, I reiterate, if Christ came back to that generation then the 1000 year kingdom ended around 1070 and the new earth came around then after the earth being destroyed by fire. We are not under grace, therefore, but under the 12 apostles ruling on 12 thrones out of Israel. But I guess that won't really happen either and Christ probably won't really subject all to Himself. It is just one big allegory.
Hey, it's my birthday the 12th. So, like Molly, I'm naming it and claiming it that all of you will see how I see these things. So it must happen. :laughing7:
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:08:59 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:05:48 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 08:57:25 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 03:49:21 PMI think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.
That would be a reason you know it IS literal, but it would not be a reason you know it is not (also) allegorical... it could be both. The stuff Paul referred to in Genesis literally ocurred, right? But it was also allegorical.
This piece that Bob has quoted still puzzles me. You're saying (Tony) that is "must" be literal because the temple Jesus was literally referring to "was" destroyed . . .then you say that Matthew 24 and 25 was not for "that" generation . . . that doesn't make any sense to me. "If" the temple "was" destroyed THEN . . how can you not see the rest of everything else stated there also happened THEN as well? When was the Temple then destroyed . .literally? It was in A.D. 70 was it not? So why then isn't the rest of what was said also intended for "that" generation "then" as well????
there is alot going on in those verses, and there is some that believe in the adjustment of the eons, but be that as it may, the unveiling of Jesus Christ IS WAS and WILL BE:
3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?"
4 And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you.
5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.
6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 cro 15;23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
chuckt
wow awesome Chuck! thanks bro for posting !!
but, once the gospel is preached to the whole world, the end would come. Those verses quoted by chuckt were while the gospel was being taken to the world. But we know that during that time, the gospel was preached to the whole world.
and in Matthew we are told when it is, the end will come.
and we know that a few years later, the temple was destroyed; just as predicted in Matthew 24.
so, imo; any continuing unveiling is from a position of completion, not from a completing.
not at all Chuckt,im kinda out it of it, not feeling too good ,but im reading never the less, great contributions by others as well :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:04:51 PM
I like that Nate ! there is alot about sound in the Scriptures bro , thanks for the reminder !
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
What is that sound of many waters?
Do you think it is us, singing a new song?
Psalm 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:18:06 PM
Quotewow awesome Chuck! thanks bro for posting !!
seems like you are the only one reading my post's :Gtantrum: :boydance: :Egyptdance2: :hithere:
hey dont tell anyone, im neither a preterist nor a futurist :Gclap:
LOL , I am a
NOW kind a gal meself hee hee .. :girlheart: :winkgrin: :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
member this :winkgrin:
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 13:11 And that,
knowing the time, that now [it is]
high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. Rom 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly,
as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:21:45 PM
not at all Chuckt,im kinda out it of it, not feeling too good ,but im reading never the less, great contributions by others as well :thumbsup:
ah hope ya get to feeling better G.
chuckt
QuoteRom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
AMEN!!
to day is THAT day :thumbsup: and we aint talkin 24 :happy3:
peace
euty
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
QuoteLOL , I am a NOW kind a gal meself hee hee ..
Tis Only cos ya Just PASSED
50 sis :HeartThrob: Being Now and NEW :icon_flower:
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
the end of authority.
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
YUP....kinda Glad Im a Spiritual Jew :icon_flower: BUD...
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:05:48 PM
there is alot going on in those verses, and there is some that believe in the adjustment of the eons, but be that as it may, the unveiling of Jesus Christ IS WAS and WILL BE:
Matt.24:6 occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.
1 cro 15;23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
chuckt
My Very Dear ChuckT
Grace and Peace,
May I say something without giving offense?
The "consummation" spoken of in matt.24:6 is not the consummation in 1 Cor.15:24. In 1 Corinthians 15:23,24 there are three orders: order 1. Christ order 2. those who are Christ's 3. the consummation order.
Now then I do believe that when the 3rd order is vivified and God is All in all in 1 Cor.15:28 that the end of the eons has occurred.
The consummation spoken of in Matthew 24 is not the consummation group spoken of in 1 Cor.15. So when all those things occur in Matthew 24 and 25 they do not occur when God is All in all. Get it? Dig it? You hip? Capish? :bigGrin:
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:22:25 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:04:51 PM
I like that Nate ! there is alot about sound in the Scriptures bro , thanks for the reminder !
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
What is that sound of many waters?
Do you think it is us, singing a new song?
Psalm 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
yes sis ,
I do believe that and the signs will follow and speak with new tongues Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them,
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
we will do the same
Quote from: TonyHey, it's my birthday the 12th. So, like Molly, I'm naming it and claiming it that all of you will see how I see these things. So it must happen.
Ok. You got it. Happy Birthday!
But, please, not by any literal plagues and fire and most of the world being wiped out.
Rather, by the mountain of God filling the whole earth--so that God can be all in all.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
--Daniel 2
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:30:29 PM
QuoteLOL , I am a NOW kind a gal meself hee hee ..
Tis Only cos ya Just PASSED 50 sis :HeartThrob: Being Now and NEW :icon_flower:
lol , thanks Bro , Like I sure hope you get to feeling better real soon ,,
pentecost 50 lol maybe ?
Pentecost = "the fiftieth day"
1) the second of the three great Jewish feasts, celebrated at Jerusalem yearly, the seventh week after the Passover, :laughing7:
in grateful recognition of the completed harvest
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:34:59 PM
Quote from: TonyHey, it's my birthday the 12th. So, like Molly, I'm naming it and claiming it that all of you will see how I see these things. So it must happen.
Ok. You got it. Happy Birthday!
But, please, not by any literal plagues and fire and most of the world being wiped out.
Rather, by the mountain of God filling the whole earth--so that God can be all in all.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
--Daniel 2
Hi Molly, great post.
I'm going to learn how to ski so when that mountain comes I can go skiing and mountain climbing and camping out. But if it fills the whole earth then there won't be any valley, no ocean, just one huge mountain. Me thinks Daniel was reciting a vision of symbolic nature to stand for something literal to come.
But Jesus didn't speak in symbolic language in Matt.24,25 as to what is to occur, did He?
blessing to you sis!
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:37:42 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:30:29 PM
QuoteLOL , I am a NOW kind a gal meself hee hee ..
Tis Only cos ya Just PASSED 50 sis :HeartThrob: Being Now and NEW :icon_flower:
lol , thanks Bro , Like I sure hope you get to feeling better real soon ,,
pentecost 50 lol maybe ?
Pentecost = "the fiftieth day"
1) the second of the three great Jewish feasts, celebrated at Jerusalem yearly, the seventh week after the Passover, :laughing7: in grateful recognition of the completed harvest
yup :icon_flower:
ya Know sis..Once I literally kept these feast of the Lord mentioned in Lev 23...Tis true...but im only 47, takes some figuring egh :icon_king:
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
:thumbsup: Very good Rose :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
Yes, and doesn't he pass that on to us?
But we are like children being given fully loaded assault rifles.
Such great power needs be handled carefully and by adults.
So he speaks in parables, lest anyone really know until they are ready and be healed.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:47:54 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
Yes, and doesn't he pass that on to us?
But we are like children being given fully loaded assault rifles.
Such great power needs be handled carefully and by adults.
So he speaks in parables, lest anyone really know until they are ready and be healed.
was going to respond to Rosies Post Molly
Exd 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Psa 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, [and] high is thy right hand.
yes Power and Authority.
Does he pass this On..Yup, CHRIST is the POWER of God in US, which heals Us of our Spiritual affirmities, The Church is HELD in His right HAND,along with 5 fingers symbolising Grace
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
so when does the "spiritual circumcision" end??
physical death??
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:33:31 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
YUP....kinda Glad Im a Spiritual Jew :icon_flower: BUD...
so are you "spiritually circimcised" already, or in the process of being circumcised?
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 09:46:16 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
:thumbsup: Very good Rose :thumbsup:
thanks Bro Tony , I am so glad we can agree in many things :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:54:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:47:54 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2009, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: RoseMar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
If I told you how I am seeing this scripture now, I wonder what you would say.
Shall I risk it?
Or, ask you--How do you see it? What does it mean for Jesus to be sitting on the right hand of God? What is the right hand of God?
it means IN POWER and authrority to me sis Molly :icon_flower:
Yes, and doesn't he pass that on to us?
But we are like children being given fully loaded assault rifles.
Such great power needs be handled carefully and by adults.
So he speaks in parables, lest anyone really know until they are ready and be healed.
was going to respond to Rosies Post Molly
Exd 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Psa 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, [and] high is thy right hand.
yes Power and Authority.
Does he pass this On..Yup, CHRIST is the POWER of God in US, which heals Us of our Spiritual affirmities, The Church is HELD in His right HAND,along with 5 fingers symbolising Grace
Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God...and all the ends of the earth shall see..Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym
Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:37:42 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:30:29 PM
QuoteLOL , I am a NOW kind a gal meself hee hee ..
Tis Only cos ya Just PASSED 50 sis :HeartThrob: Being Now and NEW :icon_flower:
lol , thanks Bro , Like I sure hope you get to feeling better real soon ,,
pentecost 50 lol maybe ?
Pentecost = "the fiftieth day"
1) the second of the three great Jewish feasts, celebrated at Jerusalem yearly, the seventh week after the Passover, :laughing7: in grateful recognition of the completed harvest
yup :icon_flower:
ya Know sis..Once I literally kept these feast of the Lord mentioned in Lev 23...Tis true...but im only 47, takes some figuring egh :icon_king:
bless your heart bro :HeartThrob: was hard to kepp all the law huh?
I did not even try that :mshock:
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 10:15:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 09, 2009, 09:37:42 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:30:29 PM
QuoteLOL , I am a NOW kind a gal meself hee hee ..
Tis Only cos ya Just PASSED 50 sis :HeartThrob: Being Now and NEW :icon_flower:
lol , thanks Bro , Like I sure hope you get to feeling better real soon ,,
pentecost 50 lol maybe ?
Pentecost = "the fiftieth day"
1) the second of the three great Jewish feasts, celebrated at Jerusalem yearly, the seventh week after the Passover, :laughing7: in grateful recognition of the completed harvest
yup :icon_flower:
ya Know sis..Once I literally kept these feast of the Lord mentioned in Lev 23...Tis true...but im only 47, takes some figuring egh :icon_king:
bless your heart bro :HeartThrob: was hard to kepp all the law huh?
I did not even try that :mshock:
Nah sis Kinda Impossible, alas That church wasnt happy with 613 , they were so righteous they added scores more....I kid ya Not :sigh:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Zeek on January 09, 2009, 10:12:22 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:33:31 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
YUP....kinda Glad Im a Spiritual Jew :icon_flower: BUD...
so are you "spiritually circimcised" already, or in the process of being circumcised?
Its a Circumcision of the HEART Bro, a Rendering of the veil....so YUP im circumcised, But ya Know that Z...ya been talking to me for yrs bro :icon_king:
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 09:07:09 PM
Dear Bob, Just because Paul brought out an allegory concerning the bond woman and free does not mean EVERYTHING is an allegory in Scripture.
Did I say that Tony? Was that the point of talking about that allegory? No. It was to point at that just because a passage LOOKS literal does not make it literal-only. You said you know it is not allegorical because you know it is literal. Paul knew the passages he referenced in Genesis were both literal and allegorical.
QuoteNeither the prophets, nor any writer in the new testament presents the things happening in Matt.24,25 as allegorical. No, not even one.
Yet Jesus said that generation would not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
QuoteAll the Scriptures in the O.T. concerning the coming Messiah (Christ); were they to be taken as allegorical with no real happenning?
Again, I'm not talking about all OT scriptures. And an allegory actually implies both real happening and another meaning.
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 09, 2009, 10:12:22 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:33:31 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
YUP....kinda Glad Im a Spiritual Jew :icon_flower: BUD...
so are you "spiritually circimcised" already, or in the process of being circumcised?
Its a Circumcision of the HEART Bro, a Rendering of the veil....so YUP im circumcised, But ya Know that Z...ya been talking to me for yrs bro :icon_king:
hi T, I know,yes;
but it seems there is some here who see the "is, was, and will be" as continual circumcision, as in "being circumcised", or being "created"
:bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Z
Quote from: Zeek on January 09, 2009, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 09, 2009, 10:12:22 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 09, 2009, 09:33:31 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 09, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
Quotethe end would come
yeah the end of physical circumcision :duck:
YUP....kinda Glad Im a Spiritual Jew :icon_flower: BUD...
so are you "spiritually circimcised" already, or in the process of being circumcised?
Its a Circumcision of the HEART Bro, a Rendering of the veil....so YUP im circumcised, But ya Know that Z...ya been talking to me for yrs bro :icon_king:
hi T, I know,yes;
but it seems there is some here who see the "is, was, and will be" as continual circumcision, as in "being circumcised", or being "created"
:bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Z
:icon_flower:
Yo Bro
You ONLY know to well, we are at where we are at UNTIL....I remember a ZEEK of OLD, aint quiet the same Zeek I once knew , Your understanding has grown :HeartThrob:
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
--John 10
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 08:21:19 PM
Faith comes by hearing . . .it's not hearing words, it's hearing sound. "My sheep will know me by the "sound" of my voice." We dwell on the words when our emphasis should be more on the "sound" of the voice. What transforms noise into sound is Love. Which again, is not an emotion, it's a person. It'd be saying the same thing if you inserted without the lake of fire one is nothing more than a clanging cymbal. The lake of fire is Love, they are one and the same in that they are the Father. He is my river, He is my desert. He is my Day, he is my night.
Trying to logically comprehend that will only lead me to a headache.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: AMEN and AMEN.
Consummation of the ages:
Daniel 9:27 - And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Hebrews 9:26 - Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Isaiah 10:22 - For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
Isaiah 10:23 - For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord GOD of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land.
Isaiah 28:22 - And now do not carry on as scoffers, Or your fetters will be made stronger;
For I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts - Of decisive destruction on (not of) all the earth.
"Give ear and hear my voice."
"Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." (Matthew 24:2)
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand) ...verse 15.
The desolation spoken of by Daniel, is that of Matthew, decreed in Isaiah, and confirmed in Hebrews.
Appears their guilt fell on the forth generation, not running the full course until then:
"Behold, I have told you in advance."
Yet, many are still waiting for a sign.
peacemaker
I can say at this point that I'm only partial preterist...seeing more and more of what was actually fulfilled in 70 A.D. But I really do like your post, PM...very helpful...
what's your take on the abomination of desolation? Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not :mnah:...
Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...
I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS!
hi ZEEK.
The unveiling of Jesus Christ....IS...WAS...and WILL BE :winkgrin:
this applys individually and corperately.
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
be well
chuckt
No offense taken Tony and thanks, i will consider what you say, and make it my weekend study.
peace
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on January 10, 2009, 03:52:08 PM
hi ZEEK.
The unveiling of Jesus Christ....IS...WAS...and WILL BE :winkgrin:
this applys individually and corperately.
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
be well
chuckt
If that is the case, that the unveiling always "will be", then there never can be a "completed" consumation; because there will always be a "will be". It never can be "finished", because there is always one more individual that "will be" unveiled.
the "will be" implies un-ending unveiling. the enemy never can be fully defeated, as always "more unveiling" is in the future.
When the last enemy is destroyed, then will there be a "will be" revealing/unveiling still?;
according to your theory, the last enemy never really is destroyed, as "unveiling always "will be".
Quote from: bobf on January 09, 2009, 10:46:21 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 09, 2009, 09:07:09 PM
Dear Bob, Just because Paul brought out an allegory concerning the bond woman and free does not mean EVERYTHING is an allegory in Scripture.
Did I say that Tony? Was that the point of talking about that allegory? No. It was to point at that just because a passage LOOKS literal does not make it literal-only. You said you know it is not allegorical because you know it is literal. Paul knew the passages he referenced in Genesis were both literal and allegorical.
Hi Bob, No, I guess you didn't. I was just saying it to make sure you weren't saying it.
So I guess the next step is this: How are we to take each thing Jesus said in Matthew 24 and 25 as allegorical and literal as to what is to take place which will mark the end of the eon.
This is important to the whole sense of the tares and wheat (the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one) since the separation is to take place at the end of the eon. Since Jesus told the disciples concerning the temple that not one stone would be left upon another and since it happened exactly as He said, why should we take the rest of the chapter as allegorical or allegorical and literal?
QuoteNeither the prophets, nor any writer in the new testament presents the things happening in Matt.24,25 as allegorical. No, not even one.
QuoteYet Jesus said that generation would not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
Actually He did not in those words.
QuoteAll the Scriptures in the O.T. concerning the coming Messiah (Christ); were they to be taken as allegorical with no real happenning?
QuoteAgain, I'm not talking about all OT scriptures. And an allegory actually implies both real happening and another meaning.
O.K. Bob. So what are the allegories in Matthew 24 and 25?
Peace bro.
P.S. my 4 month old puppy is not doing very well. She may pass away today from liver shunt disease. So sad.
Tony
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2009, 06:22:16 AM
I can say at this point that I'm only partial preterist...seeing more and more of what was actually fulfilled in 70 A.D. But I really do like your post, PM...very helpful...
what's your take on the abomination of desolation? Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not :mnah:...
Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...
I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS!
I'm responding to this on "rebuilding of the temple unscriptural" thread if you're interested.
Quote from: Tony N on January 10, 2009, 04:37:27 PMSo I guess the next step is this: How are we to take each thing Jesus said in Matthew 24 and 25 as allegorical and literal as to what is to take place which will mark the end of the eon. This is important to the whole sense of the tares and wheat (the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one) since the separation is to take place at the end of the eon. Since Jesus told the disciples concerning the temple that not one stone would be left upon another and since it happened exactly as He said, why should we take the rest of the chapter as allegorical or allegorical and literal?
First, the fact that it literally perfectly came to pass that not one stone was left upon another has no bearing on whether it is an allegory. That was my first reason for bringing up Paul's allegory. My other reason was to point out that God does not have to say "hey guys, this is an allegory" for it to be one. I expect that Matthew 24-25 will literally come to pass some time in the future. But even if I were around to witness each event literally come to pass, I'd still believe it's an allegory. My belief that it is an allegory has nothing whatsover to do with whether or not it literally comes to pass. Neither of those two reasons I just gave are any justification for believing it is an allegory, they are only reasons for not believing it is NOT an allegory.
Valid reasons for believing something is an allegory:
1. Indications within the text itself.
2. Attaining a clear picture of spiritual events to take place from scripture as a whole, and then seeing that the literal descriptions "line up" with those spiritual events.
I would also like to point out that if it is an allegory that does not necessitate that every single item in Matthew 24-25 be highly symbolic. For example in Paul's allegory there were symbols for the old and new covenants but the literal "cast out" corresponded to "cast out" in the allegorical interpretation.
QuoteO.K. Bob. So what are the allegories in Matthew 24 and 25?
LOL. If I felt like I had a clear picture of that I would have already presented it or started a thread a long time ago. But I will get back to you with an overall picture and some of the symbols as I see them.
I think there are some big impediments to that discussion though:
1. My understanding has plenty of gaps. If you've ever tried to explain something in which your understanding is incomplete or unsure, you know what I mean.
2. You believe some scriptures are to & about Israel only, others to & about the church only. I'll likely be mixing and combining.
I will get back to you though.
QuoteActually He did not in those words.
I gave you my reason for thinking He did. Your argument against was based on the verb being the subjuntive mood, but based on the Greek grammar rules I sited that just makes Christ's statements all the more emphatic. In addition to the grammar, it just seems far-fetched to me that Christ would be saying "Do ye not see all these? VERILY I SAY TO YOU, there MAY not be left here a stone upon a stone..." Or "Heaven and earth shall pass away, BUT my words shall [MAY] not pass away." Christ's words may pass away? I don't think so. Does VERILY combined with MIGHT make sense?
1. I don't see another way to read that verse that is likely.
2. The way I'm reading it, the way it is genrally translated, pretty much forces an allegory.
3. There is absolutely no reason that I can see for believing it is NOT an allegory.
4. If #3 is true then there is no reason to be inclined to look for an alternative for whatever the natural reading of "this generation..."
QuotePeace bro. P.S. my 4 month old puppy is not doing very well. She may pass away today from liver shunt disease. So sad.
I'm really sorry to hear that Tony.
Peace to you too brother,
Bob
O.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).
I think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.
I brought this up before but not much was replied to it:
Act 3:18-21 Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills. (19) Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:
Rom 11:25-27 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." (27) And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.
Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)
So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.
Actually Tony, he "did" come back to those in that generation. That's what we keep bouncing back and forth. Paul states that the gospel he preached was not a gospel given to him by other men, but that the Lord himself appeared to him and showed him many things. Some he was to pass on to others, some he was not to repeat. The entire book of Revelation is documented proof that Christ came back . . . He is salvation to those who acknowledge him, he is a judge to those who don't.
Quote from: Tony N on January 10, 2009, 08:04:51 PM
O.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).
I think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.
I brought this up before but not much was replied to it:
Act 3:18-21 Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills. (19) Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:
Rom 11:25-27 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." (27) And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.
Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)
So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.
some ideas on "nations"
– The Nations –
In many places where the Scriptures speak of the "nations" it is referring to non Jews-Israelites, but not exclusively so, and in the light of New Testament prophecy this is an important distinction to acknowledge. Concerning Israel, we find the following in Genesis:
Gen 17:4-6 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her."
Gen 35:11 Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. cf. Gen 48:4
Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."
Moving now to the New Testament we find references to Diasporic Jews:
Act 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."
Jesus makes it clear that "...salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]. The way or means of salvation came through the Jews, and ultimately in Jesus Christ – a salvation that outworked through the "in Christ" first-fruit believers of the "this generation" and thus fulfilled; they were the priestly vine [Jn 15:1, 5], the elect, the remnant, the chosen – those commissioned for the world's restoration unto God [Mt 28:19-20; 2Cor 5:19; 1Pet 2:9-10].
The nations of Mt 25:32 were the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin gathered together with the ten northern tribes constituting greater Israel – those who under the Assyrian Tiglath-Pileser in 722BC and the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar in 586BC had been "scattered to the four corners" of the known world. Israel, having been scattered abroad and assimilating into foreign cultures, though keeping to their monotheism, became representative of the Gentile nations. And in a real sense, being the covenanted people were out of covenant with their God – being out of their Land, became in effect in relation to God, accursed Gentiles – "Lo-Ammi – not My people" [Hos 1:9-10; 2:23].
Hos 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; now they are among the Gentiles like a vessel in which is no pleasure.
As Abram before coming into covenant with God was a Gentile so too was Israel in her banished state. In restoration i.e., resurrection [Ezk 37:1-14], Israel is again the people of God, yet this time inclusively so, for in Christ the middle wall of division was obliterated and those "not a people" [Rom 9: 25-26] are now brought into the commonwealth of Israel [Eph 2:12], and are now the people of God, or as John says "...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God." Rev 21:3.
Isa 11:11-12 It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, from Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
In context then it can be noted that the "All the nations will be gathered" in Mt 25:32 is to be equated with and is therefore identical to "...all the tribes of the earth..." of Mt 24:30. Further to this is the Greek text in which both Isaiah and Matthew render the common translation "earth" more correctly as "LAND" [gēs –γης], thus giving it a more focused setting.
This then is what the great gathering of the peoples, the nations [Gen 49:10d] of the AD70 Parousia of Christ was all about. Consequently, Israel's redemption brought to fruition the Divinely planned reconciliation of the wider world [Rom 11:11, 15, 25-27].
From this then we see that the PRIMARY deception of the nations in Rev 20:10 was in reference to Israel under the Old Covenant.
http://www.pantelism.com/TheNations.htm
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 10:00:48 PM
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me". There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down. My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 10:20:11 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 10:00:48 PM
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me". There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down. My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.
:cloud9: AMEN to both of these..... :thumbsup: wow, a great time of fellowship here today, all....blessings....
Wonder no more!! For me it is one and the same! :icon_flower: :icon_king:
Under HEAVEN....
emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...
Nice post Zeek... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 10:20:11 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 10:00:48 PM
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That's a beautiful song you're singing Zeek . . .beautiful.
Next step . . . there are cities "in me". There are walls that "I" put there that the message of God envelops without a sound . . .until the seventh day when his praise is declared and my walls come crashing down. My earth has heard his voice, all my earth has seen his mighty hand . . . he "has come" "Is coming" and "will continue to come" to this world within me.
Amen,
I think of where I was just 2-3 years ago, and how "much more" He has revealed, in me. Sometimes I kind of freak out (in a good way) when I get those "undescribable moments with HIM, peace that passes understanding", and the unfolding of HIM as we continue this journey.
LOVE is so much more than an emotion.
PRAISE HIM, and LOVE to all of you here.
Z
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 10, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 10, 2009, 11:30:53 PM
Under HEAVEN....
emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...
Nice post Zeek... :icon_flower:
YE are from BENEATHE :grin: He was certanly from ABOVE huh? :grin:
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them,
Ye are from beneath;
I am from above: ye are of this world;
I am not of this world. AMEN SIS :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 10, 2009, 11:17:27 PM
Amen!!! :bigGrin:
Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL FLY in THE MIDST of HEAVEN ***HAVING*** THE GOSPEL TO PREACH **unto them** that DWELL ON THE EARTH and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people :bigGrin:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from THE HOPE of THE GOSPEL, which YE HAVE HEARD, and WHICH WAS PREACHED to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN ***whereof*** I PAUL am made a minister
Ye received "me" as an "ANGEL of God" even "Christ Himself" :grin:
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it , but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I wonder if flying in mid heaven is sorta as being seated with Christ and seeing things more clearly by revelation? Quote
:cloud9: YES to that, heaven is the same as walking in the Spirit. And thank you for this post, I just saw an angel, LOL. :thumbsup: The another angel he is talking about that flies in the midst of heaven having the gospel (the TRUE gospel which is being revealed again in this day and hour), is Christ in a many membered body. That's why they received Paul as an angel, ie. message or messenger of the gospel. Blessings...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 12:13:09 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 10, 2009, 11:57:08 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 10, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 10, 2009, 11:30:53 PM
Under HEAVEN....
emphasis..those beneath , those NOT yet In their RIGHT minds , etc...
Nice post Zeek... :icon_flower:
YE are from BENEATHE :grin: He was certanly from ABOVE huh? :grin:
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
AMEN SIS :icon_flower:
Amen thanks for the verse Im on my other puter now :grin:
I think He was preaching to every CREATURE so they can BECOME the *NEW* CREATURES :grin:
LIVING CREATURES?? :grin:
all Being Made New souls In HiM SIS..YUP
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 09:49:36 PM
Actually Tony, he "did" come back to those in that generation. That's what we keep bouncing back and forth. Paul states that the gospel he preached was not a gospel given to him by other men, but that the Lord himself appeared to him and showed him many things. Some he was to pass on to others, some he was not to repeat. The entire book of Revelation is documented proof that Christ came back . . . He is salvation to those who acknowledge him, he is a judge to those who don't.
Nathan,
Christ did not come back and arrive from Mount Zion for all Israel to be saved.
The complement of the nations has not entered in yet. Last I knew I got saved as did most who post on these boards and saved through grace and people of the nations are still being added to the complement.
Not only that but all which Christ spoke of which would happen prior to His return did not occur either allegorically nor literally.
That which Peter spoke of in Acts 3 did not occur for Christ to come back either.
Oh, how I wish I could stay here and watch this conversation with you guys . .but my day here is done . . .look forward to see how it went tomorrow . .watch yourself Kim . .this is a wild one . . you may want to take your computer into the shower WITH you during this . . .wouldn't that be a hoot!! :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 03:03:00 AM
Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?
FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.
The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."
Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.
Wow, this is a long and good discussion. Can I add my 2 cents. Of course I can. Only God and the mods can stop me.
I just want to say the natural and spiritual are my favorite topics or at least right up there. I think the interpretation of the Bible is way out there so that's where I go. I don't really care if 2 naked people were running around a garden way back when unless it points to something. I don't care who or what is arriving out of Mt Zion unless it represents something about life, my life, your life, all life.
If God just wants us to do something to be saved then He could have told us in a few sentences and called it a day. We either do it or we don't.
Here is my take. The whole of Scripture is God telling us what we are, who we are and how we are made.
Example: The sheep and goats. Within my make up are sheep and goats, not literal ones but figurative. I am one lump and within this lump are vessels of honor and dishonor.
Jacob I love, Esau I hate, God says. I take this to mean God loves the divine within us and hates the carnal.
So far, most of all Scripture I've read fits this way of deciphering Scripture. I do see much of what is written taking place in our physical literal world but I see all of it taking place in the spirit realm.
Just my thoughts and I covet your responses. I know some of this many of you have heard before and some even are way ahead of me in realizing these thoughts as real but I wanted to vent a bit. I have read much of this thread and am enjoying it.
claypot
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 04:03:13 AM
Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?
Hi FF,
I think Tony is referring to this:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 04:32:54 AM
Christ in us our hope of glory and Him shining out of us is as out of Sion God, the perfection of beauty hath shined if we go onto perfection. Even Sion is just men made perfect right? Looks what laid in Zion... this is beautiful, forgive me if I screw it up though I try.
Theres a Stone laid in Zion (Peter calls Him a precious Stone)
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, ((( Behold ))) **I LAY** ((( in Zion ))) for a foundation A STONE, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, **a sure foundation**: he that believeth shall not make haste.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST.
The first foundation was called Jasper here (I see as Christ)
Rev21:19 The first foundation was JASPER
Here He is again in the building of the wall of it
Rev 21:18 And **the building of** the wall of it was of JASPER: and the city (ye are a city) was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
WE are (In Him) are builded together through the Spirit
**IN WHOM** YE also ARE BUILDED TOGETHER for an habitation of God through the Spirit
Heres the Glory unto Glory by the Spirit and the glass
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with **open face** beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Heres HAVING the Glory of God (of which Christ IS and clear crystal, the Stone like Jasper again
Rev 21:11 ***HAVING***the glory of God: and HER LIGHT was like unto A STONE **most precious**, even like a JASPER STONE, ~clear as crystal~
God commanding the LIGHT to shine OUT here
2Cr 4:6 For **God** who commanded THE LIGHT TO SHINE **OUT OF** darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
And the God who commanded (above) is He that did "lighten" but the Lamb (Christ) is the light
Rev 21:3 And the city (YE are a City) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did **lighten it**, and the Lamb IS THE LIGHT **thereof**.
Our Light (Him in us) is to SHINE OUT of the city (Sion/us)
Mat 5:16 Let your light SO SHINE before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
We are perfected "In Love" God IS Love and the perfection of beauty that should shine out from us (that true light that NOW shineth)
Psalm 50:2 **OUT OF** Zion, the perfection of beauty, GOD (who is love) hath shined.
Let us go onto "perfection" would be God (who is love) shining out from her. Christ being the sure fountation (even precious stone) God laid in her. Her light is like UNTO HIS as He is a light so is SHE and her light is compared to the Jasper Stone as the same likeness of that stone is shown on the throne, in the building of the wall of it and sure foundation.
He's THAT precious stone and in each place more qualities of Him are found pertaining to these things
Ok this is sorta how Im seeing it
Sion (of just men made perfect) IS the city of the living God. Its God Who laid the Stone (most precious = Christ) "This indescrible gift" in Sion "out of which" God (even the love of God in Christ) should shine. The perfection of beauty is of Him. These are they who have gone onto perfection. "I am the light" of the world Ye are a city on a hill (Mount Sion where the Stone is laid) **Having** the glory of God and ones light being like unto His we can let "our light" (Him) Shine. We are created in Christ (unto the good works) we should let shine (before men) to glorify the Father.
Theres some real beautiful things in this, maybe I can rewrite it cause sometimes its the placement of the verses which makes it either easier or harder to see. Look at those verses CLOSELY and compare them they are pretty kool Tony :HeartThrob:
Edited to see if I could show it better
(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif)
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more
sure word of prophecy; whereunto
ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a
light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the
day star arise in your hearts
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 04:03:13 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 03:55:22 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 03:03:00 AM
Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?
FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.
The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."
Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.
Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?
Dear FF,
My bad,
Act 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Some who have posted in this thread have said that Christ already did come back. Christ did meet Paul on the road to Damascus but did not set foot on the earth. And that was outside the promised land, not from Mt. Zion.
Peter, Paul and Mary (that should be a music band) all looked forward to Christ's return and wrote about it (except Mary). And He certainly did not come back according to Matthew 24 and 25 nor according to Revelation 1 thru 19 nor
2Th 1:7-8 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, (8) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 03:13:58 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 04:03:13 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 03:55:22 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 03:03:00 AM
Yeah but Tony havent we come to Mt Sion already? Isnt that what it says?
FF, first of all the complement of the nations has to enter, then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer and then all Israel will be saved.
The Jews or Hebrews which the writer of Hebrews wrote to concerning THEM coming to Mt. Zion is not the same as "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."
Once the last person of the nations is saved which completes the body of Christ then and only then will Christ come back and arrive out of Zion.
Tony, can you help me with verses what verse is "arriving out of Zion be the rescuer" I know its just worded differently in mine but Im curious. Sorry you know me Im not too swift without verses but I want to understand what you mean here. So there will be the last person saved on earth and Christ will come back to Zion and out of Zion?
Dear FF,
My bad,
Act 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Some who have posted in this thread have said that Christ already did come back. Christ did meet Paul on the road to Damascus but did not set foot on the earth. And that was outside the promised land, not from Mt. Zion.
Peter, Paul and Mary (that should be a music band) all looked forward to Christ's return and wrote about it (except Mary). And He certainly did not come back according to Matthew 24 and 25 nor according to Revelation 1 thru 19 nor
2Th 1:7-8 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, (8) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
Quote from: Tony N on January 10, 2009, 08:04:51 PMO.K. Bob, it makes sense what you say about the subjunctive (for now).
That's cool. Lots of my ideas I keep in a tentative "for now" category. ;)
QuoteI think there are still problems with eschatological ideas which state that Christ did come back while that generation was alive in the manner and in lieu of all which Christ said must come to pass prior to His return.
An allegorical fulfillment would not be literally "in the manner" described in Matthew 24-25 nor would it need to be "in lieu of" a literal fulfillment of anything He described. I know you already know that, but not sure what else you mean by "in the manner and in lieu of".
QuoteI brought this up before but not much was replied to it:
Act 3:18-21 Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills. (19) Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord, (20) and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus, (21) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
Peter must have been in the audience Jesus spoke to of "this generation." Yet Peter stated that national repentence was necessary or Christ would not come back. Acts is a history of Israel rejecting Christ and so Christ coming back was suspended due to the secret given only to Paul:
Rom 11:25-27 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." (27) And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.
Only when the complement of the nations has entered (it has not yet entered after 2000 years) then Christ will come back and save Israel; (not save the church but save Israel.)
So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.
You're using Acts 3 and Romans 11 to further prove a point which we already agree on, namely that Matthew 24-25 has not yet been literally fulfilled. So how can that have any bearing on or disprove a non-literal inward fulfillment of Matthew 24-25 in that generation?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The way this looks to me, the way it gives me meaning and purpose for my life and life in general right now is this.....
God is telling us how we are made. I think we were made blind in so many ways, in part. The only reason we would sin is if we were partly or wholly blind.
The divine in us (Israel) is blinded until our carnal nature is dealt with, then the divine takes over completely and we are saved. A grand process. Jesus shall shine forth out of Zion (out of our hearts) and all that is not of God shall be eliminated.
I do see a literal physical fullfillment of this happening too but the spiritual application seems much more clear to me. Jesus said His words were spirit. It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not.jn6.63
Our Father God is Spirit, our Holy Guide is Spirit and even though we have known Christ according to the flesh we are encouraged to know Him so no more. Though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. 2cor5.16
The spiritual application of Scripture seems the one God wants us to see. It is His language from His domain.
cp
I think this is a quote from Tony......
So it is more than likely that people have misunderstood what "this generation" meant because obviously Peter and Paul both state when Christ will come back. He did not come back yet to that generation either allegorically or literally.
Me thinks 'this generation' as Jesus used it refers to the time when blindness rules. The generation of the blind so to speak. The next generation is the incorruptable one, the immortal one of which was, is and is to come. The generation of light has come in Jesus Christ and will be completely fullfilled when the generation of 'Adam' is consumated.
cp
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
He didn't. If He did then that meant that the complement of the nations came about, all Israel was saved, the eras of refreshing already came to Israel, the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon would have already come almost 2000 years ago and there would be no administration of the secret given to Paul.
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Tony, what is a hyper spiritualist? Does Jesus qualify?
cp
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
He didn't. If He did then that meant that the complement of the nations came about, all Israel was saved, the eras of refreshing already came to Israel, the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon would have already come almost 2000 years ago and there would be no administration of the secret given to Paul.
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be
preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and
then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the
gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you,
as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and
which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day
nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
1Jn 2:17 And the
world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children,
it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that
it is the last hour.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying,
I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment write I unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the
darkness is passing away, and the true light already shineth.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old
is ready to vanish away.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that
now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our
salvation nearer than when we believed.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure
unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and
then shall the end come.
Tony, you wrote..... "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
I don't know about you but I have had many upheavals in my life that could be likened to an earthquake. Cities I see as whole trains of thought or belief packages within my thought life, some have fallen away and some are rock steady. I also believe in literal physical earthquakes that fell literal physical cities too.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 04:49:23 PM
Tony, what is a hyper spiritualist? Does Jesus qualify?
cp
Hmmm, that's a good question.
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 04:51:57 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
He didn't. If He did then that meant that the complement of the nations came about, all Israel was saved, the eras of refreshing already came to Israel, the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon would have already come almost 2000 years ago and there would be no administration of the secret given to Paul.
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment write I unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shineth.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 04:57:33 PM
Tony, you wrote..... "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
I don't know about you but I have had many upheavals in my life that could be likened to an earthquake. Cities I see as whole trains of thought or belief packages within my thought life, some have fallen away and some are rock steady. I also believe in literal physical earthquakes that fell literal physical cities too.
cp
The bible states that the earthquake that is to come prior to Christ coming is like none that ever came upon the earth.
If your body is a city with a skyscraper in it does the light ever come on on the top floor? :laughing7: Oh, my bad.
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Isaiah 13:6 (NKJV) Wail, for the
day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV) Behold, the
day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both
wrath and fierce anger, To lay the
land desolate; And He will
destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
11 "I will
punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will
halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore
I will shake the heavens, And the
earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the
day of His fierce anger.
Isaiah 13:17 (NKJV) "Behold, I will
stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
These passages of scripture describe a historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon, the Babylonian
world came
to an end. This is the way the Bible discusses the
fall of a nation.
The fall of Edom:
Isaiah 34:3-5 (NKJV) Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation.
Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkocrape.
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation.
Ezekiel speaks in the same manner of Egypt:
Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NKJV) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,' Says the Lord GOD.
The prophet Daniel speaks, in the same manner, of the slaughter of the Jews by the little horn, the power of the Romans.
Daniel 8:10 (NKJV) And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it
cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 04:51:57 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
He didn't. If He did then that meant that the complement of the nations came about, all Israel was saved, the eras of refreshing already came to Israel, the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon would have already come almost 2000 years ago and there would be no administration of the secret given to Paul.
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment write I unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shineth.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
I disagree
Quote
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Mat 5:14 You are the
light of the world--""""
like a city on a mountain,
glowing in the night for all to see.""""
Always seemed to me that ONE city had to FALL before its restored.
Old Jerusalem Then New Jerusalem , the MOTHER of us ALL.
We are no longer Flesh, we are Now Spirit.
OLD man Perishes New man Lives.
WE are Now not of the Night , BUT CHILDREN OF THE """DAY"""""
The Old covenant has Faded Lik the Glory which once shined on Moses Face , NOW the GLORY of the NEW.
No longer in Bondage But FREE in HIM
Once ASLEEP but now Awake.
No longer In Darkness But IN LIGHT.
Not hyper spiritual at all Tony , very scriptural in fact .
personally Tony I thought Cards Post in the Greek thread summed up the Christian Mystic very well.
I wonder what Paul may have thought :icon_flower:
Hey Tony, I'm seeing something in your words that don't seem to jive with the spirit of Christ but I could be wrong, you seem pretty sure of yourself.
You wrote.... The bible states that the earthquake that is to come prior to Christ coming is like none that ever came upon the earth.
If your body is a city with a skyscraper in it does the light ever come on on the top floor? Oh, my bad.
My salvation in like nothing that ever happened to me either so it is a good similarity you put forth.
It is your bad Tony and you are a big man to own up to it but if forgiveness is required be assured that I forgive you. I have seen the likes of your attitute in me too so I understand.
Quote from: Taffy on January 11, 2009, 05:17:13 PM
Quote
Please, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world--""""like a city on a mountain, glowing in the night for all to see.""""
cool verse T. me likes.
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 05:08:55 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
What if he truly did come back, but, as was the case with his coming the first time in the flesh, most did not discern it because of what they were expecting?
Ron
BTW it is hard to miss a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall which comes prior to the Lord's return.
Isaiah 13:6 (NKJV) Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV) Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
Isaiah 13:17 (NKJV) "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
These passages of scripture describe a historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon, the Babylonian world came to an end.
This is the way the Bible discusses the fall of a nation.
The fall of Edom:
Isaiah 34:3-5 (NKJV) Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation.
Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkocrape.
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation.
Ezekiel speaks in the same manner of Egypt:
Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NKJV) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,' Says the Lord GOD.
The prophet Daniel speaks, in the same manner, of the slaughter of the Jews by the little horn, the power of the Romans.
Daniel 8:10 (NKJV) And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
:icon_flower:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
mount sinai melted
mt. ZION:
Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PM
Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
[/quote]
Paul did bring the good news of the kingdom of God, describing it in various ways to the assemblies he wrote to.
Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the
kingdom of God."
Act 19:8 Now, entering the synagogue, he spoke boldly for three months, arguing and persuading as to that which concerns the
kingdom of God."
Act 28:31 heralding the
kingdom of God, and teaching that which concerns the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness, unforbidden."
Rom 14:17 for the
kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in holy spirit."
1Co 4:20 For not in word is the
kingdom of God, but in power."
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of
God's kingdom."Gal 5:21 envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the
kingdom of God."
Eph 5:5 For this you perceive, knowing that no paramour at all or unclean or greedy person, who is an idolater, has any enjoyment of the allotment in the
kingdom of Christ and of God."
1Th 2:12 to be walking worthily of God, Who calls you into His own
kingdom and glory."
I agree with you that we today do not need to endure to the end that Jesus spoke of, for that end occurred in 70 AD.
Ron
Hey Ron. I see you wrote... I agree with you that we today do not need to endure to the end that Jesus spoke of, for that end occurred in 70 AD.
I humbly disagree. Jesus is encouraging us every moment to endure to the end. He and His Father are working towards an end and we are that work and end so it behooves us to endure. The very least we can do is endure but of course our enduring can only be done in accordance to the where Jesus and His Father are at within us, but endure we can to some extent.
But Jesus answered them, My Father works, and I work. jn5.17
cp
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PM
Dear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
Paul did bring the good news of the kingdom of God, describing it in various ways to the assemblies he wrote to.
Act 14:22 establishing the souls of the disciples, besides entreating them to remain in the faith and saying that, "Through many afflictions must we be entering into the
kingdom of God."
Act 19:8 Now, entering the synagogue, he spoke boldly for three months, arguing and persuading as to that which concerns the
kingdom of God."
Act 28:31 heralding the
kingdom of God, and teaching that which concerns the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness, unforbidden."
Rom 14:17 for the
kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in holy spirit."
1Co 4:20 For not in word is the
kingdom of God, but in power."
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of
God's kingdom."Gal 5:21 envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the
kingdom of God."
Eph 5:5 For this you perceive, knowing that no paramour at all or unclean or greedy person, who is an idolater, has any enjoyment of the allotment in the
kingdom of Christ and of God."
1Th 2:12 to be walking worthily of God, Who calls you into His own
kingdom and glory."
I agree with you that we today do not need to endure to the end that Jesus spoke of, for that end occurred in 70 AD.
Ron
[/quote]
I disagree with that it was a different gospel, but not a big concern to me.
1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to
present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: Col 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a ministeCol
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:05:31 PM
Hey Ron. I see you wrote... I agree with you that we today do not need to endure to the end that Jesus spoke of, for that end occurred in 70 AD.
I humbly disagree. Jesus is encouraging us every moment to endure to the end. He and His Father are working towards an end and we are that work and end so it behooves us to endure. The very least we can do is endure but of course our enduring can only be done in accordance to the where Jesus and His Father are at within us, but endure we can to some extent.
But Jesus answered them, My Father works, and I work. jn5.17
cp
what are you enduring to? what are you waiting for??
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Hi Zeek,
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13
I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
cp
Zeek, I don't know what you are saying in your last 2 posts.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
Hi Zeek,
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13
I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
cp
I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore.
So how do you know when his work is completed in you? or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"? What's HIS measuring stick?
So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved??
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:20:11 PM
Zeek, I don't know what you are saying in your last 2 posts.
cp
To me those verses speak of the "same gospel" that Paul preached, and the gospel of the kingdom. I think some are saying they are two different gospels.
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 04:37:02 PM
Me thinks 'this generation' as Jesus used it refers to the time when blindness rules. The generation of the blind so to speak. The next generation is the incorruptable one, the immortal one of which was, is and is to come. The generation of light has come in Jesus Christ and will be completely fullfilled when the generation of 'Adam' is consumated.
cp
:cloud9: This is what was shown to me too, CP. Christ is the last Adam; those that are IN Christ, baptized into His Spirit, are in that "generation" and are part of the scripture, dealing with, "Who shall declare (means show openly) His GENERATION?"
Generation word means the same as revolution, as in what I talked about on another post about it being like a revolution of a whirlwind that takes us "up" higher into the things of the Spirit. So singurlarly, we are "on" one of those revolutions. Corporately, so was each successive generation of those that were IN HIM, all the way back to His appearing, plus some from the OT, as He has been progressively "raising" man up out of the dust realm and into the heavenlies. Blessings...
Claypot,
Thanks for bringing that up. I was not limiting that enduring to the end to only 70 AD, but was just focusing my answer on that historical fulfullment.
I agree with the spirit in which you mean we all endure today. The way I would describe it is that all things have been fulfilled actually from the throwing-down of the world in God's view, but from our perspective, in time and space, for us there is the constant revelation of those things fulfilled, so in that sense there is an enduring for us and each generation after us. From Genesis 1:2 on revelation is everywhere, but unfortunately it is not brought out in translation. It is there however, in Hebrew.
Ron
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PMPlease, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and
every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be] made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Tony, what does filling up literal valleys and laying low literal mountains have to do with everyone seeing the salvation of God? I mean, it's not God giving us a better viewing angle is it?
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and
the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And
upon all the high mountains, and
upon all the hills that are lifted up.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 11, 2009, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 04:37:02 PM
Me thinks 'this generation' as Jesus used it refers to the time when blindness rules. The generation of the blind so to speak. The next generation is the incorruptable one, the immortal one of which was, is and is to come. The generation of light has come in Jesus Christ and will be completely fullfilled when the generation of 'Adam' is consumated.
cp
:cloud9: This is what was shown to me too, CP. Christ is the last Adam; those that are IN Christ, baptized into His Spirit, are in that "generation" and are part of the scripture, dealing with, "Who shall declare (means show openly) His GENERATION?"
Generation word means the same as revolution, as in what I talked about on another post about it being like a revolution of a whirlwind that takes us "up" higher into the things of the Spirit. So singurlarly, we are "on" one of those revolutions. Corporately, so was each successive generation of those that were IN HIM, all the way back to His appearing, plus some from the OT, as He has been progressively "raising" man up out of the dust realm and into the heavenlies. Blessings...
We tend to think of 'generation' as being 20 or 30 years, but it has another meaning.
Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?In the Greek:
"generation"G1081
γέννημα
gennēmaghen'-nay-mah
From G1080; offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): -
fruit, generation.
G1080
γεννάω
gennaōghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085;
to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear,
beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085
γένος
genosghen'-os
From G1096;
"kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation,
kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
So it can be understood as all the same kind, as in ' like begets like.'
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. --Gen 1
But, I have a question. If Jesus is the last Adam--what is this "generation of vipers"? Not Adam?
In the Hebrew--
"generation"
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind? :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PMDear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 11, 2009, 06:32:30 PM
Claypot,
Thanks for bringing that up. I was not limiting that enduring to the end to only 70 AD, but was just focusing my answer on that historical fulfullment.
I agree with the spirit in which you mean we all endure today. The way I would describe it is that all things have been fulfilled actually from the throwing-down of the world in God's view, but from our perspective, in time and space, for us there is the constant revelation of those things fulfilled, so in that sense there is an enduring for us and each generation after us. From Genesis 1:2 on revelation is everywhere, but unfortunately it is not brought out in translation. It is there however, in Hebrew.
Ron
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2009, 07:02:09 PM
In the Hebrew--
"generation"
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind? :laughing7:
:cloud9: What? You guys think I pull this stuff out of thin air? :laughing7: :winkgrin: :HeartThrob:
Yep, and Elijah being taken up in a whirlwind. Think about Genesis as being the beginning of the whirlwind, ie. the first revolution, and then moving through all the other books, with the culmination being Revelation. Like steps on a ladder, but the ladder is moving, as the Spirit is forever moving.
What's even more funny, is this works the same way in reverse. Goat means to go around in circles. When our carnal nature is allowed to override the nature/direction of the Spirit, instead of going up and over the "mountains' we end up going around and around it, as it is presented to us, over and over again, until we overcome whatever it is. So what happens if in the natural you keep the same path over and over again? It creates a deeper and deeper rut in the earth/flesh, presumably until we have dug our own grave? :mshock: So the expression, "being in a rut" takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it, LOL. :winkgrin:
He gave me a night vision one time of Him as the whirlwind. It was as real as real could be. It looked like illuminated living water, with diamonds in it, there was so much reflective beauty in it. Hard to describe. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 11, 2009, 07:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2009, 07:02:09 PM
In the Hebrew--
"generation"
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
Funny, you used just those words, Cardinal--Jacob's ladder is a circular staircase, the Spirit gyrating dust to the heavens in a whirlwind? :laughing7:
:cloud9: What? You guys think I pull this stuff out of thin air? :laughing7: :winkgrin: :HeartThrob:
Yep, and Elijah being taken up in a whirlwind. Think about Genesis as being the beginning of the whirlwind, ie. the first revolution, and then moving through all the other books, with the culmination being Revelation. Like steps on a ladder, but the ladder is moving, as the Spirit is forever moving.
What's even more funny, is this works the same way in reverse. Goat means to go around in circles. When our carnal nature is allowed to override the nature/direction of the Spirit, instead of going up and over the "mountains' we end up going around and around it, as it is presented to us, over and over again, until we overcome whatever it is. So what happens if in the natural you keep the same path over and over again? It creates a deeper and deeper rut in the earth/flesh, presumably until we have dug our own grave? :mshock: So the expression, "being in a rut" takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it, LOL. :winkgrin:
He gave me a night vision one time of Him as the whirlwind. It was as real as real could be. It looked like illuminated living water, with diamonds in it, there was so much reflective beauty in it. Hard to describe. Blessings....
I wholeheartedly agree Cardinal. Even the very stuff we are made up, our dna, that which encodes who we are, is depicted in the same upward spiral. Truly his creation, even the smallest particle, pictures spiritual truth.
Ron
The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--
Even the blind man could see it lol.
Is this the blind leading the blind? Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?
John 9
We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.
Then in come the Pharisees--
They hear about the miracle.
1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks
Finally, they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl
Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--
Even the blind man could see it lol.
Is this the blind leading the blind? Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?
John 9
We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.
Then in come the Pharisees--
They hear about the miracle.
1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks
Finally, they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl
Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:
Actually Molly they do Find somewhere..its a Ditch OR pit ,which for me relates very Much to the Grave :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 11, 2009, 08:18:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--
Even the blind man could see it lol.
Is this the blind leading the blind? Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?
John 9
We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.
Then in come the Pharisees--
They hear about the miracle.
1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks
Finally, they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl
Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:
Actually Molly they do Find somewhere..its a Ditch OR pit ,which for me relates very Much to the Grave :icon_flower:
Yeah, that's what Cardinal said, too. The rut, the pit, the grave--the living dead. It would be really sad if they didn't want so much to pull the rest of us down with them.
QuoteYeah, that's what Cardinal said, too. The rut, the pit, the grave--the living dead.
yeah weird egh :icon_king:
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto
whited sepulchres, which indeed appear
beautiful outward, but are
within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2009, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PMDear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2009, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 05:04:50 PMDear Zeek, what gospel is Matthew concerned with? The gospel of the kingdom, that's what gospel. That is not the gospel Paul brought to the nations.
With us of the nations under Paul's evangel, we don't have to endure to the end as Matthew 24:13 states for Paul says "1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
So there are different evangels: the evangel of the circumcision and the evangel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2).
How was it that THE gospel was preached to Abraham then?
Scripture reference please.
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Ron said, " I wholeheartedly agree Cardinal. Even the very stuff we are made up, our DNA, that which encodes who we are, is depicted in the same upward spiral. Truly his creation, even the smallest particle, pictures spiritual truth."
:cloud9: AMEN. I haven't read it, but I was told Bob Torango was given truth on the DNA like that. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
The goat thing--I was noticing that in the actions and thoughts of the Pharisees that I posted last night from John 9---they were desperately trying to control something that was out of their control and ended up going round and round in circles, getting nowhere--
Even the blind man could see it lol.
Is this the blind leading the blind? Around and around in the same circle, getting nowhere?
John 9
We start out with a miracle of God according to Jesus.
Then in come the Pharisees--
They hear about the miracle.
1) they reason Jesus doesn't come from God because he broke the Sabbath
2)But how can a sinner work a miracle?
3)So they decide the man wasn't blind to begin with
4) But his parents tell them he was
5)So they try to get the blind man to agree Jesus is a sinner
6)But the blind man won't go along with them
7)So they ask the blind man again, how did he heal you?
8)But the blind man says he's already answered that question
7)So they tell the blind man he's a sinner and they don't care what he thinks
Finally, they banish the blind man from their presence because they can't solve the problem. rofl
Ron--the double helix of DNA! Like two vines winding around each other--like a spiral staircase! :mshock:
:cloud9: Yep, it does tie in. And the vines is interesting too. The "goodly Babylonianish garment" that the guy wanted to hang onto, runs into a meaning of vine, LOL. Hanging onto the one "side" of the ladder, ie. the one that is flesh, results in very bad things, LOL? Blessings....
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 09:02:30 PMGal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.
It was also the good news that God would justify the Gentiles through faith. No relation to Paul's gpspel there?
Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2009, 06:49:19 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 04:38:48 PMPlease, hyper-spiritualists, no "But the earthquake happened in our flesh and the cities fell in our flesh."
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be] made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Tony, what does filling up literal valleys and laying low literal mountains have to do with everyone seeing the salvation of God? I mean, it's not God giving us a better viewing angle is it?
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up.
Bob, what it given as hyperbole or metaphorically in Luke and Isaiah does not mean this is the case with the great earthquake which is coming. It is yet future. It has not happened yet. Therefore it has not happened in anyone's pimple, or finger nail, or hair follicle, or liver, stomache, eyebrow etc. yet if it is about the flesh which it isn't. People don't have cities or islands in them. This is just getting beyond credibility.
Likewise mountains are not in people nor valleys. If anything, if it (mountains and valleys) is symbolic for humans it represents the human who is high and the human who is low.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
In Luke 3:5 John was supposed to prepare the way of the Lord. Notice at the end of 3:5 it says "and" so John was supposed to make smooth the way of the Lord AND not only that, but all flesh shall see the salvation of the Lord.
Christ has not come yet, the tares and the wheat have not be separated yet, the complement of the nations has not entered yet, the Lord has not out of Zion come to save all Israel yet and God has not dispatched His Son out of heaven because the restoration of all which the prophets told has not happened yet. You dig?
Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2009, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 11, 2009, 09:02:30 PMGal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gospel just means "good news." Abraham was told the good news that "in thee shall all the nations be blessed.
It was also the good news that God would justify the Gentiles through faith. No relation to Paul's gpspel there?
It says this:
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. The good news that was brought to Abraham said "in thee shall all nations be blessed." It did not say: "God would justify the Gentiles through faith."
I fail to see how this connects with the fact that the tares and wheat have not been separated, Christ has not come back yet, the complement of the nations has not occurred yet, Matthew 24 and 25 has not occurred yet which must come before Christ returns. Heaven has still received the Son until the restoration of all has come.
QuoteI fail to see how this connects with the fact that the tares and wheat have not been separated, Christ has not come back yet, the complement of the nations has not occurred yet, Matthew 24 and 25 has not occurred yet which must come before Christ returns. Heaven has still received the Son until the restoration of all has come.
It doesn't relate... I was just commenting on comments about two gospels.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
G5313
ὕψωμα
hupsōma
hoop'-so-mah
From G5312; an elevated place or thing, that is, (abstractly) altitude, or (by implication) a barrier (figurative): - height, high thing.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
lift you up:
G5312
ὑψόω
hupsoō
hoop-so'-o
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
G5011
ταπεινός
tapeinos
tap-i-nos'
Of uncertain derivation; depressed, that is, (figuratively) humiliated (in circumstances or disposition): - base, cast down, humble, of low degree (estate), lowly.
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
Hi Zeek,
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13
I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
cp
I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore.
So how do you know when his work is completed in you? or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"? What's HIS measuring stick?
So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved??
I don't have to know, I just become. I guess it is in the becoming that I know. God's measuring stick is Jesus Christ who is God's image. God said, Let us make man in our image. He is doing it.
I am waiting for salvation and yes, I am already saved. Depends on what perspective you take.
cp
But, I have a question. If Jesus is the last Adam--what is this "generation of vipers"? Not Adam?
[/quote]
Well Molly, to me it is referring to the old man, the man of sin, the carnal man. You know. If I look within I see more than a generation of vipers in me. I'm a nasty sort but I fight to love God. There is that within me that fights this endeavor tooth and nail. Generation of vipers sums it up nicely. I am thankful for the Christ within me for taking them on. I know He will win.
cp
Quotewhat is this "generation of vipers"?
Hi Molly
Vipers are likened to snakes or adders , serpents..Their TONGUE full of DEADLY poison, ..more simply put their WORDS KILL, speaks of the Ministry of Death , check out the Rudder Thread on the TAMING of the TONGUE, speaks about James there on the tongue,,
Recall To HAVE "POWER to walkover serpents
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Psa 58:4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;
Psa 140:3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison [is] under their lips. Selah.
Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 02:24:41 AM
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
Hi Zeek,
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13
I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
cp
I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore.
So how do you know when his work is completed in you? or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"? What's HIS measuring stick?
So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved??
I don't have to know, I just become. I guess it is in the becoming that I know. God's measuring stick is Jesus Christ who is God's image. God said, Let us make man in our image. He is doing it.
I am waiting for salvation and yes, I am already saved. Depends on what perspective you take.
cp
I don't know who's quote is in this quote . .it really isn't specifying . .but they asked a question about what God's measuring stick is . . . actually, my answer to their over all post . .which is this . . .
So how do you know when his work is completed in you? or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"? What's HIS measuring stick?
So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved?? My answer in general would be . . .you neither know of the completion, nor should you know. For if you do, then your eyes are on you and not on your source of life. That's why we say keep your eyes "fixed" on Christ. I am perfected, but I am not perfect. I am completed, but I am not complete. I am finished, but I'm still finishing.
I am not what I percieve myself to me, but I am what "He's" proclaimed me to be. In natural realm of things, I will never measure up. I don't have eyes that see invisible things. All I see is what is immediately around me . .which after a short while, can get down right depressing. But that's not where I'm to dwell. If I'm to change the natural things around me, I must first come into alignment with what is spiritually completed in me.
In the spirit realm there is no waiting. Prayers are answer before they are even fully uttered from our mouths. The over all purpose for man is that man reproduces after his own kind, that he replenishes the earth so that what is complete in heaven, can be released in the earth. For us to reproduce . .we must come into the maturity of Christ . .which simply means, walk in the spirit and LET Christ manifest through us, into others. It's all actually an act of spiritual intimacy. There is a man (spirit) there is a womb (mind) and there is semen (life seed) when the mind submits to the man, life is released and truth is birthed into the body.
The real reason why I'm responding to this post, was dealing with God's measuring stick. In the natural, it's the law that measures the status of a man. But in the spirit . . .well, for me, it's in the numbers.
Genesis 6
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
I see the acceptable year of the Lord that Jesus was referring to is the year of Jubilee. Israel was to let the land rest every 7 years and after 49 years (7x7) on the 50th, it was declared the year of Jubilee where any land that was sold due to debt or any other reason, was to be returned to the rightful family that inherited it, as well as any debt you owed was wiped clean . . .Jesus "is" the Sabbath . .completed, he is the Jubilee . . . God's measuring is through his son.
When he stated that he would not labor with man but 120 years . . .when you multiply 120 by 50 . .you get 6,000 . .or . .6 days . . . the days of labor. God will not wrestle with carnality only for the 6 days of labor. After that, comes the triumphant entry of the Sabbath . . in Christ. . .the "Rest" that Hebrews speaks of.
Someone asked a question pertaining to "in that day" . . There is only one day, and it's not a 24 hour period, it's a person. Adam walked with God in the spirit of that Day . . . John was also in the spirit of that Day when the mind-blowing revelation of Christ was given to him. In order for us to lead anyone into the kingdom, we ourselves must retrain our religion-induced minds to the ways of God rather than to what we've had ingrained in us all these years . . .
I'm done again . . .(with just this post Taf . . .with just this post.)
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 02:24:41 AM
Quote from: Zeek on January 11, 2009, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 11, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
Hi Zeek,
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil2.13
I would say I am enduring to and waiting for God's work and Jesus' work to be done in me and in all creation. I am a complete work yet I am a work in progress. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
cp
I do, but I guess I dont see it that way anymore.
So how do you know when his work is completed in you? or is this unattainable while you are "flesh being"? What's HIS measuring stick?
So are you waiting for salvation, or are you saved??
I don't have to know, I just become. I guess it is in the becoming that I know. God's measuring stick is Jesus Christ who is God's image. God said, Let us make man in our image. He is doing it.
I am waiting for salvation and yes, I am already saved. Depends on what perspective you take.
cp
and the salvation you are waiting for, what is it that you are saved from when it comes??
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2009, 02:59:33 AM
My answer in general would be . . .you neither know of the completion, nor should you know. For if you do, then your eyes are on you and not on your source of life. That's why we say keep your eyes "fixed" on Christ. I am perfected, but I am not perfect. I am completed, but I am not complete. I am finished, but I'm still finishing.
I am not what I perceive myself to me, but I am what "He's" proclaimed me to be. In natural realm of things, I will never measure up. I don't have eyes that see invisible things. All I see is what is immediately around me . .which after a short while, can get down right depressing. But that's not where I'm to dwell. If I'm to change the natural things around me, I must first come into alignment with what is spiritually completed in me.
In the spirit realm there is no waiting. Prayers are answer before they are even fully uttered from our mouths. The over all purpose for man is that man reproduces after his own kind, that he replenishes the earth so that what is complete in heaven, can be released in the earth. For us to reproduce . .we must come into the maturity of Christ . .which simply means, walk in the spirit and LET Christ manifest through us, into others. It's all actually an act of spiritual intimacy. There is a man (spirit) there is a womb (mind) and there is semen (life seed) when the mind submits to the man, life is released and truth is birthed into the body.
The real reason why I'm responding to this post, was dealing with God's measuring stick. In the natural, it's the law that measures the status of a man. But in the spirit . . .well, for me, it's in the numbers.
Genesis 6
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
I see the acceptable year of the Lord that Jesus was referring to is the year of Jubilee. Israel was to let the land rest every 7 years and after 49 years (7x7) on the 50th, it was declared the year of Jubilee where any land that was sold due to debt or any other reason, was to be returned to the rightful family that inherited it, as well as any debt you owed was wiped clean . . .Jesus "is" the Sabbath . .completed, he is the Jubilee . . . God's measuring is through his son.
When he stated that he would not labor with man but 120 years . . .when you multiply 120 by 50 . .you get 6,000 . .or . .6 days . . . the days of labor. God will not wrestle with carnality only for the 6 days of labor. After that, comes the triumphant entry of the Sabbath . . in Christ. . .the "Rest" that Hebrews speaks of.
Someone asked a question pertaining to "in that day" . . There is only one day, and it's not a 24 hour period, it's a person. Adam walked with God in the spirit of that Day . . . John was also in the spirit of that Day when the mind-blowing revelation of Christ was given to him. In order for us to lead anyone into the kingdom, we ourselves must retrain our religion-induced minds to the ways of God rather than to what we've had ingrained in us all these years . . .
I'm done again . . .(with just this post Taf . . .with just this post.)
:cloud9: That was awesome Nate :thumbsup:. I never knew that about the 120 X 50. It just never ceases to amaze me the intricacy of His perfect Word. Amen, He is the day, and we are becoming the day of the Lord, no part darkness.
A couple of things I won't go into great detail that tie in with what you shared is the SIX water pots at the wedding of Cana that were filled to the brim with water at the first, changed into the new wine of the Kingdom. The timing is revealed thru that also. And the man of the gadarenes who had a legion (2000 or 2 days) cast out of him, again the timing is revealed by what day it was that Jesus did it. Everything leads to another leads to another leads to another......Blessings....
IN CASE ANYONE CARES ABOUT SUCH THINGS, THIS THREAD IS NOW THE LEADER ON TM FOR REPLIES TO A THREAD...MAN, WE'VE USED A LOT OF INK AND KILLED A LOT OF TREES HERE :laughing7:. THANKS A LOT TONY :icon_jokercolor:.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: :laughing7:
Hey Zeek, You asked.....
and the salvation you are waiting for, what is it that you are saved from when it comes??
I am saved from my self. I see myself in Adam and I see myself in Christ, thanks to not a few here who post. My Adam essence needed and needs rebirthing through death and resurrection to become God's image.
Zeek, does this make sense? I really aim to keep things simple. I see myself and all other humans as in a process of salvation, a salvation that is as sure as God Himself. It is a done deal from God's perspective yet it is being lived out from my perspective.
cp
Card and Nate, you guys are great Brothers. Keep it coming.
Card you said something that made me think of something. You said....
A couple of things I won't go into great detail that tie in with what you shared is the SIX water pots at the wedding of Cana that were filled to the brim with water at the first, changed into the new wine of the Kingdom.
A bit off subject but I just saw the other day how the wine at Cana also reinforces the truth that it is the natural first and then the spiritual. The best wine was put forth last.
cp
:cloud9: Thank you, as one "brother" (in the Spirit) to another :winkgrin:...... :girlheart:
Anyway, what is off topic on this thread anyway, if it relates in any way at all to spirit vs. natural, LOL? Amen, the best for last. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 03:12:05 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2009, 02:59:33 AM
My answer in general would be . . .you neither know of the completion, nor should you know. For if you do, then your eyes are on you and not on your source of life. That's why we say keep your eyes "fixed" on Christ. I am perfected, but I am not perfect. I am completed, but I am not complete. I am finished, but I'm still finishing.
I am not what I perceive myself to me, but I am what "He's" proclaimed me to be. In natural realm of things, I will never measure up. I don't have eyes that see invisible things. All I see is what is immediately around me . .which after a short while, can get down right depressing. But that's not where I'm to dwell. If I'm to change the natural things around me, I must first come into alignment with what is spiritually completed in me.
In the spirit realm there is no waiting. Prayers are answer before they are even fully uttered from our mouths. The over all purpose for man is that man reproduces after his own kind, that he replenishes the earth so that what is complete in heaven, can be released in the earth. For us to reproduce . .we must come into the maturity of Christ . .which simply means, walk in the spirit and LET Christ manifest through us, into others. It's all actually an act of spiritual intimacy. There is a man (spirit) there is a womb (mind) and there is semen (life seed) when the mind submits to the man, life is released and truth is birthed into the body.
The real reason why I'm responding to this post, was dealing with God's measuring stick. In the natural, it's the law that measures the status of a man. But in the spirit . . .well, for me, it's in the numbers.
Genesis 6
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
I see the acceptable year of the Lord that Jesus was referring to is the year of Jubilee. Israel was to let the land rest every 7 years and after 49 years (7x7) on the 50th, it was declared the year of Jubilee where any land that was sold due to debt or any other reason, was to be returned to the rightful family that inherited it, as well as any debt you owed was wiped clean . . .Jesus "is" the Sabbath . .completed, he is the Jubilee . . . God's measuring is through his son.
When he stated that he would not labor with man but 120 years . . .when you multiply 120 by 50 . .you get 6,000 . .or . .6 days . . . the days of labor. God will not wrestle with carnality only for the 6 days of labor. After that, comes the triumphant entry of the Sabbath . . in Christ. . .the "Rest" that Hebrews speaks of.
Someone asked a question pertaining to "in that day" . . There is only one day, and it's not a 24 hour period, it's a person. Adam walked with God in the spirit of that Day . . . John was also in the spirit of that Day when the mind-blowing revelation of Christ was given to him. In order for us to lead anyone into the kingdom, we ourselves must retrain our religion-induced minds to the ways of God rather than to what we've had ingrained in us all these years . . .
I'm done again . . .(with just this post Taf . . .with just this post.)
:cloud9: That was awesome Nate :thumbsup:. I never knew that about the 120 X 50. It just never ceases to amaze me the intricacy of His perfect Word. Amen, He is the day, and we are becoming the day of the Lord, no part darkness.
A couple of things I won't go into great detail that tie in with what you shared is the SIX water pots at the wedding of Cana that were filled to the brim with water at the first, changed into the new wine of the Kingdom. The timing is revealed thru that also. And the man of the gadarenes who had a legion (2000 or 2 days) cast out of him, again the timing is revealed by what day it was that Jesus did it. Everything leads to another leads to another leads to another......Blessings....
Man, that's awesome stuff!! I heard bits and pieces on the clay pots . .but the thing on legion . . .I always thought a legion was 20,000 . . .but to see it as 2,000 . .that puts a whole different spin on that one. Totally freakin me out man!!!
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 04:11:22 AM
Hey Zeek, You asked.....
and the salvation you are waiting for, what is it that you are saved from when it comes??
I am saved from my self. I see myself in Adam and I see myself in Christ, thanks to not a few here who post. My Adam essence needed and needs rebirthing through death and resurrection to become God's image.
Zeek, does this make sense? I really aim to keep things simple. I see myself and all other humans as in a process of salvation, a salvation that is as sure as God Himself. It is a done deal from God's perspective yet it is being lived out from my perspective.
cp
Yeah it makes sense, I just don't see myself as "in Adam". If anyone is in Christ he
is a new creature.
This is where I struggle with some of the whole "tares" in us, that need to be burned out that so many here see.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.I see a big difference between fiery trial of our faith,
versus
burning of the tares.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even
our faith.
Well, for me, the tares are carnal . .which is faithlessness. And even though Christ is in me, there are still carnal things I get tangled up in. If you can't admit that you're perfect, then there are tares there. They are simply imperfections. As the parable goes, it's not your responsibility to remove them . .as you mature in Christ "that" process takes care of itself.
Just because I accepted Christ, doesn't mean that I'm perfect. But it does mean I'm perfected . .which is to say if I died .there's no judgment, no hell, no lake of fire due to already being perfected by the blood of the lamb . .the 'finished' works being applied to my sin. But if I don't physically die . . .there will still be times I'll argue with my wife, I'll still do the normal stupid things from time to time . . the imperfections will still manifest. But they must not be all that deprimental otherwise we wouldn't be instructed to let them be.
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2009, 06:22:44 AM
Well, for me, the tares are carnal . .which is faithlessness. And even though Christ is in me, there are still carnal things I get tangled up in. If you can't admit that you're perfect, then there are tares there. They are simply imperfections. As the parable goes, it's not your responsibility to remove them . .as you mature in Christ "that" process takes care of itself.
Nathan, what I hear you saying here is that if we can't
say we
are perfect [another way of saying 'admit'], then that means there
are tares in our life...and you're admitting you have them (as do I). And I don't think I've met anyone who didn't have them...even St. Paul apparently did...("do what I don't want/don't do what I want"). So, If I'm reading you right, you just see those as imperfections that we don't have to struggle with, "buffeting our flesh"? That Jesus will process them out of us as we mature?
Is so, then what do you think the process entails?
My upbringing involved conviction, guilt/sorrow, and subsequent confession and asking forgiveness---(I'm now looking at that more closely);
or just moving more into His image as He shapes us, without any particular struggles to "achieve/endure"?
Some teach that if one is chosen/a "manifest son of God" and/or an overcomer, that will involve self-discipline, buffeting and subduing the flesh, etc. Living a "holy" life.
Yet there are a couple of references in the NT that say a child of God no longer sins, i.e., Paul saying "it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me"...
Insights from you and others?
QuoteIf that is the case, that the unveiling always "will be", then there never can be a "completed" consumation; because there will always be a "will be". It never can be "finished", because there is always one more individual that "will be" unveiled.
the "will be" implies un-ending unveiling. the enemy never can be fully defeated, as always "more unveiling" is in the future.
When the last enemy is destroyed, then will there be a "will be" revealing/unveiling still?;
according to your theory, the last enemy never really is destroyed, as "unveiling always "will be".
wow i dont see it that way, why does the WILL BE have to mean forever, is the ""was" forever? is the ""IS"" forever? me thinks you use sophistry here mr zeek.
The ""will be"" will be until all things are subjected to him 1 cor 15. for he must reign UNTIL..........
So sorry zeek, try again :winkgrin:
be well
euty
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 02:27:00 PM
QuoteIf that is the case, that the unveiling always "will be", then there never can be a "completed" consumation; because there will always be a "will be". It never can be "finished", because there is always one more individual that "will be" unveiled.
the "will be" implies un-ending unveiling. the enemy never can be fully defeated, as always "more unveiling" is in the future.
When the last enemy is destroyed, then will there be a "will be" revealing/unveiling still?;
according to your theory, the last enemy never really is destroyed, as "unveiling always "will be".
wow i dont see it that way, why does the WILL BE have to mean forever, is the ""was" forever? is the ""IS"" forever? me thinks you use sophistry here mr zeek.
The ""will be"" will be until all things are subjected to him 1 cor 15. for he must reign UNTIL..........
So sorry zeek, try again :winkgrin:
be well
euty
The 'IS' is forever, and a memorial forever.
I Am14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. --Exodus 3
14-15God said to Moses:
I am the eternal God. So tell them that the LORD, whose name is
" I Am," has sent you.
This is my name forever, and it is the name that people must use from now on.
--Exodus 3
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 02:27:00 PM
QuoteIf that is the case, that the unveiling always "will be", then there never can be a "completed" consumation; because there will always be a "will be". It never can be "finished", because there is always one more individual that "will be" unveiled.
the "will be" implies un-ending unveiling. the enemy never can be fully defeated, as always "more unveiling" is in the future.
When the last enemy is destroyed, then will there be a "will be" revealing/unveiling still?;
according to your theory, the last enemy never really is destroyed, as "unveiling always "will be".
wow i dont see it that way, why does the WILL BE have to mean forever, is the ""was" forever? is the ""IS"" forever? me thinks you use sophistry here mr zeek.
The ""will be"" will be until all things are subjected to him 1 cor 15. for he must reign UNTIL..........
So sorry zeek, try again :winkgrin:
be well
euty
because "will be" implies future.
but basically what you are saying is, all enemies are not defeated now, and individually "will be" is in effect; until a future "big event" that will defeat all the enemies?
The part i'm struggling with is, the whole "i'm a new creature" in Christ,
and not Flesh if the Spirit of God is in me;
yet
it seems people here with the "is, was and will be" continue to imply that they really aren't new creations, really not Flesh anymore; based on their "sensory" perceptions. So they continue to believe carnal is being burned out of them. It's as if they are "part time" new creation and "part time Flesh". Mixing oil and water.
Growing in HIM as his child, not a bastard is not the same as "burning the tares" out of us.
they've been burned out already.
Faith is what overcomes.
am I way off??
When that which is perfect is come, is that not possible NOW??
are you saying you beleive this is it, and that the ""consumation" per 1 cor 15 is past?
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
1Co 15:27 For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet."
Eph 1:22 He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the called-out assembly,
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet."
This occured at the resurrection of Christ, which is why he could rightly say "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."
And yet, does it appear that all things are in subjection to him? No. In fact, Paul goes on to say the same when he says:
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don't see all things subjected to him, yet.
This, I believe, is where revelation comes in, for the illusion is presented to our physical eyes and experience that he doesn't have all authority yet, when the reality is that he in fact does. The "seeing" that Paul speaks of here is seeing with our physical eyes. He doesn't stop there however, thankfully. For he goes on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yahushua, because of the suffering of death crowned with esteem and honor, that by the favor of the Mighty One he should taste of death for everyone.
Paul here shows the reality, which can be "seen" by eyes of faith. He is indeed crowned with esteem and honor, even though to our physical eyes it doesn't appear to be so yet. Over time as that which is temporal passes away, the reality is made more and more clear.
Ron
Quoteit seems people here with the "is, was and will be" continue to imply that they really aren't new creations,
i am sorry that you stumble at this Zeek.
are ALL people new creations or is there a ""will be"" for them?
just because YOU are a new creature dosent mean ALL are.
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Quoteauthor=gregoryfl link=topic=3960.msg46591#msg46591 date=1231767488]
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
very good Ron!!
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
God bless
chuckt
Zeek, you wrote....
Yeah it makes sense, I just don't see myself as "in Adam". If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature.
This is where I struggle with some of the whole "tares" in us, that need to be burned out that so many here see.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
I see a big difference between fiery trial of our faith,
versus
burning of the tares.
I think of Pauls words...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order 1cor15.22
Put off concerning the former conversation of the old man , which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man eph 4.22
Zeek, it seems as though we are in a process of shedding the carnal essence and maturing into the spiritual. The shedding of the mortal, imo, is a burning of the tares. This is what happens in the presence of Jesus Christ and His holy angels.
Perspective. I do see myself in Adam from one perspective and I do see myself in Christ from another. Time, space and perspective are tricky things in God's world, the world of the spirit.
cp
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 03:40:24 PM
Quoteauthor=gregoryfl link=topic=3960.msg46591#msg46591 date=1231767488]
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
very good Ron!!
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
God bless
chuckt
4 what is man that You remember him,
the son of man that You look after him?
5 You made him little less than God
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him lord over the works of Your hands;
You put everything under his feet:
--Psa 8
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2009, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 03:40:24 PM
Quoteauthor=gregoryfl link=topic=3960.msg46591#msg46591 date=1231767488]
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
very good Ron!!
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
God bless
chuckt
4 what is man that You remember him,
the son of man that You look after him?
5 You made him little less than God
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him lord over the works of Your hands;
You put everything under his feet:
--Psa 8
yup. done, being done and will be done :winkgrin:
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
peace
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 03:54:52 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2009, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 03:40:24 PM
Quoteauthor=gregoryfl link=topic=3960.msg46591#msg46591 date=1231767488]
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
very good Ron!!
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
God bless
chuckt
4 what is man that You remember him,
the son of man that You look after him?
5 You made him little less than God
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him lord over the works of Your hands;
You put everything under his feet:
--Psa 8
yup. done, being done and will be done :winkgrin:
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
peace
chuckt
13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. --Romans 15
"hope"G1680
ἐλπίς
elpisel-pece'
Fromἔλπω elpō which is a primary word (
to anticipate, usually with pleasure);
expectation (abstract or concrete) or
confidence: -
faith, hope.
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2009, 06:22:44 AM
Well, for me, the tares are carnal . .which is faithlessness. And even though Christ is in me, there are still carnal things I get tangled up in. If you can't admit that you're perfect, then there are tares there. They are simply imperfections. As the parable goes, it's not your responsibility to remove them . .as you mature in Christ "that" process takes care of itself.
Just because I accepted Christ, doesn't mean that I'm perfect. But it does mean I'm perfected . .which is to say if I died .there's no judgment, no hell, no lake of fire due to already being perfected by the blood of the lamb . .the 'finished' works being applied to my sin. But if I don't physically die . . .there will still be times I'll argue with my wife, I'll still do the normal stupid things from time to time . . the imperfections will still manifest. But they must not be all that deprimental otherwise we wouldn't be instructed to let them be.
Nathan, There are two different groups involved, not one group with two different problems of tares and wheat.
Christ did not say that the sons of the kingdom are also the sons of the wicked one.
Neither did Jesus say that a person has a son of the kingdom and a son of the wicked one in them.
Now I agree with you that we won't be judged at least not with the world, however I think we are being judged in this life: 1Co 11:32 "Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
Anyway, I don't want the thread to go off on a tangent as to judgment now.
So the parable of the tares and wheat is about two groups of people; sons of the kingdom and sons of the wicked one.
When Christ comes back at the end of the eon He will send forth the angels and kick out of the kingdom those wicked people. Those people will wheep and gnash their teeth at their great loss of not being involved in all the glories of the kingdom but will be chastened along with the bad nations in Matthew 25.
I see that people still don't get this:
Heaven must hold Jesus until the restoration of all (Acts 3. The restoration of all did not occur in 70 A.D.
Christ will return once the complement of the nations has entered (Romans 11:25,26). That has not occurred yet.
Peace,
Tony
Hi Tony, you wrote....
Neither did Jesus say that a person has a son of the kingdom and a son of the wicked one in them.
I think of Jesus' words.....
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.lk17.21
and Jesus was talking to the Pharisees!
And Jesus said......
And a man's foes are those of his own household.mt10.36
This is definitely implying that household is an individual person.
Now Tony, if this is not Jesus saying there is a war going on in each person between the Kingdom of God and the enemy then I don't know what to say.
cp
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2009, 08:57:15 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2009, 06:22:44 AM
Well, for me, the tares are carnal . .which is faithlessness. And even though Christ is in me, there are still carnal things I get tangled up in. If you can't admit that you're perfect, then there are tares there. They are simply imperfections. As the parable goes, it's not your responsibility to remove them . .as you mature in Christ "that" process takes care of itself.
Nathan, what I hear you saying here is that if we can't say we are perfect [another way of saying 'admit'], then that means there are tares in our life...and you're admitting you have them (as do I). And I don't think I've met anyone who didn't have them...even St. Paul apparently did...("do what I don't want/don't do what I want"). So, If I'm reading you right, you just see those as imperfections that we don't have to struggle with, "buffeting our flesh"? That Jesus will process them out of us as we mature?
Is so, then what do you think the process entails?
My upbringing involved conviction, guilt/sorrow, and subsequent confession and asking forgiveness---(I'm now looking at that more closely);
or just moving more into His image as He shapes us, without any particular struggles to "achieve/endure"?
Some teach that if one is chosen/a "manifest son of God" and/or an overcomer, that will involve self-discipline, buffeting and subduing the flesh, etc. Living a "holy" life.
Yet there are a couple of references in the NT that say a child of God no longer sins, i.e., Paul saying "it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me"...
Insights from you and others?
Hey Kim . . . what Jabcat says here is what I was trying to say about that issue. And to try to kill two birds with one stone here, let me say that we're dealing with different dimensions when acknowledging the tares. On the natural level, no one can say they have no imperfections. I see it that faithlessness was bred into us by way of the first Adams choice to live by knowledge rather than life. Adam, being the father of all flesh as a result, passed on these tares which take root in my field.
We had a piece of property here in town where I live, that they came in and bulldozed it off last summer. They brought in truck loads of dirt to build up many of the low spots. After a rain or two . . .immediately, the bare dirt began to produce a countless number of weeds. No one went in there and planted them, they just seemed to pop up out of no where. Now, I know that Scripture states that the enemy planted the tares while the workers were sleeping.
It is "assumed" that the enemy is the devil . . but I beg to differ. I believe the enemy is not a force from without, but it's my carnality from within. I am my own worst enemy. In Adam was Eve, in Eve was the serpent (that ought to light a few fires out there). In the Spirit was the soul, (mind) and in the mind is my ego. It is my ego that is my carnal man. My Spirit is my godman (for lack of a better term other than "spirit" again) And my mind is what does the choosing as to which one to follow. So when my mind sleeps . .in the night . .that's never a good thing spiritually speaking.
Literally, even though the body sleeps, the mind never does. Spiritually, when the mind sleeps, it's disengaged and the ego takes over . .and that is where the tares come from, from within my carnality. Scripture tells us to take our thoughts captive. My spirit has been given authority over both my mind and my ego. Eve would desire after her husband, but he would rule over her . .it's the same language used of God when speaking to Cain. He states Satan desired after him as well, but that he would rule over him . . .but he didn't.
Genesis 4
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And Adam didn't either. Instead of subduing his earth, he submitted to it by "receiving" the fruit from Eve . . .it was supposed to be the other way around. My Spirit is to feed my mind, not my mind feeding my spirit. And that is where my tares come from. My ego plants them in my mind as it sleeps in darkness, rather than walking in the Light of the Day.
Like I mentioned in the beginning, there are several dimensions here . . .when I observe in the natural, I naturally see imperfections. But when I walk in the spirit, the natural imperfections are still there, but they are not accredited to me due to the fact that I've accepted the finished work of the cross through Christ. So . ."in Christ" I can not sin. Another reason we are instructed to walk in the spirit. It's the realm where the mortal mind puts on immortality. it's where death has lost it's sting. Everybody wants to be pretty . . .well, in the spirit, the imperfections don't exist.
That's a simplistic way of looking at it. . .but it works for me. The more I walk in the spirit, the less I see of my tares . as well as tares in others. And "that's" the process. In this world we have trials and tribulations . . .naturally, but be of good cheer, Christ has over come the world . .totally and completely. When you walk in Christ, the tribulations are of no ill effect.
Nathan, you da man!
cp
Hi Nathan,
I think along the lines of multiple dimensions as well, we may or may not agree on the specifics though.
I have long thought that the depiction of the Serpent is different from Satan.
So if we have a separation of these dimensions we have something different that can be perceived.
Think about when Jesus was tempted, Satan came to Jesus and offered him the whole world. Now think about this. Jesus is said to have came to earth limited in knowledge, so as Jesus was contemplating his own power, his flesh, and what he knew his purpose to be Jesus could of looked at the physical realm thinking. With my power I can do anything here and fulfull all my feelings and desires of the flesh. All Jesus had to do was give in to that. I think Jesus knew he was froma greater realm, but I wonder if his limited knowledge allowed him to perceive its greatness. Probably not.
I still think there is certainly more to Satan in the bible than it appears most depict. Most despict one or the other. He is said to be this spirit being that moves from place to place, or he is said to be just in our mind.
Job tells us many things and one thing it does show us is that Satan is not only about the inner workings of our own mind. But it is not only about this physical world and what happens in our lives either.
I see in this life I can dwell on the physical, I can then see how ther physical has caused things in me that are perception beyond the physical and feelings. I also know that I have in areas been sifted as grain. Aside from traditional teaching, I have not lifted one finger in procedure to bring that about. It's not that I sat back and went limp and God did it all, just that as I engage in this life, trying to do this or that or even appease my own emotions I see how I am the pot after all, yet, there is nothing that God is pulling my strings about when it comes to my own thinking or efforts.
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Hi Tony, you wrote....
Neither did Jesus say that a person has a son of the kingdom and a son of the wicked one in them.
I think of Jesus' words.....
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.lk17.21
and Jesus was talking to the Pharisees!
And Jesus said......
And a man's foes are those of his own household.mt10.36
This is definitely implying that household is an individual person.
Now Tony, if this is not Jesus saying there is a war going on in each person between the Kingdom of God and the enemy then I don't know what to say.
cp
Dear claypot the kingdom was among those pharisees because Jesus was doing the works of the Father among them.
Also, a man's household is not an individual person. The household is comprised of mom, dad and children.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 12, 2009, 05:17:09 PM
Hi Nathan,
I think along the lines of multiple dimensions as well, we may or may not agree on the specifics though.
I have long thought that the depiction of the Serpent is different from Satan.
So if we have a separation of these dimensions we have something different that can be perceived.
Think about when Jesus was tempted, Satan came to Jesus and offered him the whole world. Now think about this. Jesus is said to have came to earth limited in knowledge, so as Jesus was contemplating his own power, his flesh, and what he knew his purpose to be Jesus could of looked at the physical realm thinking. With my power I can do anything here and fulfull all my feelings and desires of the flesh. All Jesus had to do was give in to that. I think Jesus knew he was froma greater realm, but I wonder if his limited knowledge allowed him to perceive its greatness. Probably not.
I still think there is certainly more to Satan in the bible than it appears most depict. Most despict one or the other. He is said to be this spirit being that moves from place to place, or he is said to be just in our mind.
Job tells us many things and one thing it does show us is that Satan is not only about the inner workings of our own mind. But it is not only about this physical world and what happens in our lives either.
I see in this life I can dwell on the physical, I can then see how ther physical has caused things in me that are perception beyond the physical and feelings. I also know that I have in areas been sifted as grain. Aside from traditional teaching, I have not lifted one finger in procedure to bring that about. It's not that I sat back and went limp and God did it all, just that as I engage in this life, trying to do this or that or even appease my own emotions I see how I am the pot after all, yet, there is nothing that God is pulling my strings about when it comes to my own thinking or efforts.
Yeah, I agree with you much. The picture of Jesus being tempted . . .to consider that darkness could tempt light is nuts. But when you see it naturally that Jesus "mind" tried to combat his true purpose, that really brings it home. And later when he turns to Peter . . .calls him Satan??? How Rude!!! But if he simply says "Dude, you're becoming an adversary to my purpose here with your carnal mind getting in the way of yourself" That, I can relate to.
And yes, I also drift from time to time when trying to pin all of it down. My mind doesn't retain as much as my spirit . .nor does it talk in the same language . . .which is why I comment about following the sound within versus wandering in the noise without. I would love to see just how much my subconsciousness absorbs of things without my consciousness being aware of it. I sense this is what has happened to many who embrace certain theories of theology. Could it be that the satan we now invision, was never the original intent when it was originally written? But instead, it's the result of a religious mind's imagination that took root in the mainline church where it is now guarded and protected by religious gate-keepers of the laws.
Hey Tony, your words in bold......
Dear claypot the kingdom was among those pharisees because Jesus was doing the works of the Father among them.
Also, a man's household is not an individual person. The household is comprised of mom, dad and children.
If that's all you can see Brother, I feel for ya. Out of the same lump God made vessels of honor and dishonor. Out of the same lump Brother. The same lump.
Jesus is doing the works of His Father amongst all the 'Pharisees' within me and I can't praise Him enough for it!!!!!
cp
Quote from: Tony N on January 12, 2009, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Hi Tony, you wrote....
Neither did Jesus say that a person has a son of the kingdom and a son of the wicked one in them.
I think of Jesus' words.....
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.lk17.21
and Jesus was talking to the Pharisees!
And Jesus said......
And a man's foes are those of his own household.mt10.36
This is definitely implying that household is an individual person.
Now Tony, if this is not Jesus saying there is a war going on in each person between the Kingdom of God and the enemy then I don't know what to say.
cp
Dear claypot the kingdom was among those pharisees because Jesus was doing the works of the Father among them.
Also, a man's household is not an individual person. The household is comprised of mom, dad and children.
My mom . . .would be my mind . .the womb in me . . .my dad is my spirit, the man in me, and the kids are the fruits of what my spirit plants in my mind which births understanding in me. "or" my ego plants the tares in me . .which produces offspring as well.
Just thinking out loud . . .in bold . .with letters . .. never mind.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 12, 2009, 09:58:58 AM
I sorta see it as we are overcomers through the faith of Christ and anything that we do that is not of faith is sin. We know faith worketh by love and that we are perfected in love (God). Its "out of" Zion "God" the perfection of beauty is to shine. I dont walk perfectly in love yet and I think if one did love perfectly it wouldnt boast of itself because love is not proud.
I do believe we are called to be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect (or in time as He is so will we be in this world). Jesus said everyone who IS perfect will be like his Master. So just as when we see Jesus we see the Father, so likewise when we really start seeing Him as He is I believe we too will be like Him.
The disciples were sure not "immediately" like Him :grin: A disciple is a "learner" still learning of Him and none of us are worthy to even be "that" unless we take up our cross and follow Him.
James says the perfect man offends not in WORD. I sorta always imagined it to be something else (to be truthful) but thats what He says.
I sometimes dont bridle my tongue so I have not gotten to that point yet :grin: I used to be much better at it when I gave diligence in taking heed to myself and its that I need to return to because I find myself being snappy and letting loose my bridle.
Ofcourse it speaks of DOING righteousness and I believe that comes through the power God has given us to become Sons but its His work and He performs it making us able.
So I see our tongue and our doings are being perfected but not without taking some heed and giving diligence and the fruit of the Spirit empowering our self control. I believe the grace of God is an effectual thing, so He will empower us to become.
Prov 23: 16 Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.
1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation
Psalm 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.
Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life
Loved those verses when I found them cause He was helping me adress my tongue, my biggest problem :grin:
so Kim,
are you part time "son" and part time "bastard". When sinning, you must be lacking faith, so then a bastard;
and when living by faith, the Spirit is in you and you are no longer in the Flesh, so then a son??
There is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall
not come into condemnation; but is
passed from death unto life.
so if John 5:24 is true, then are we in Adam (death) or are we in Christ (life).
I continue to see relevance to this topic on wheat and tares,
that if u are "in Christ", you have passed from "tares" into "wheat". We are a new creation. I continue to hold that fire that tries your faith is just that, trieng "faith", not trieing for lack of faith.
How can I be a tare or have tares within me, when I have passed from death to life??
sincerly wondering, or am i misunderstanding??
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 05:29:47 PM
Jesus is doing the works of His Father amongst all the 'Pharisees' within me and I can't praise Him enough for it!!!!!
cp
this means you have not passed from death to life then??
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 12, 2009, 03:38:08 PM
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
Another example - SHALT BE vs HAVE I MADE THE
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou
shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations
have I made thee.
God calls things which BE NOT as though they were.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written,
I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things
which be not as though they were.
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 05:46:55 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
AMEN to that. But are you thinking that every time you sin, which is not of faith; you lose your status as a son, and go back to being a bastard??
Old things are passed away, all things are new.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God
doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
is I Jn 3:9 impossible to obtain? or is it possible it is obtained via faith??
and
Rom 8:9 But
ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of
God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
is the Spirit "in/out, in/out, in/out" every other moment??
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 05:46:55 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
chuckt, i ask you the same question,
are you a bastard or a son, or both in God's eyes??
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:53:49 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 05:46:55 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
chuckt, i ask you the same question,
are you a bastard or a son, or both in God's eyes??
what kind of silly question is this Zeek?
do you still beat your wife?
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:53:49 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 05:46:55 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 12, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
chuckt, i ask you the same question,
are you a bastard or a son, or both in God's eyes??
what kind of silly question is this Zeek?
do you still beat your wife?
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
chuckt, i'm sorry u think this is a silly question, and i think maybe u think i'm not sincere;
I'm out of here for awhile.
Z
Quotechuckt, i'm sorry u think this is a silly question, and i think maybe u think i'm not sincere;
I'm out of here for awhile.
Z
sorry if i came across unloving:
again:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. chuckt
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 05:29:47 PM
Hey Tony, your words in bold......
Dear claypot the kingdom was among those pharisees because Jesus was doing the works of the Father among them.
Also, a man's household is not an individual person. The household is comprised of mom, dad and children.
If that's all you can see Brother, I feel for ya. Out of the same lump God made vessels of honor and dishonor. Out of the same lump Brother. The same lump.
Jesus is doing the works of His Father amongst all the 'Pharisees' within me and I can't praise Him enough for it!!!!!
cp
Dear CP,
Thanks for feeling for me but really, let's see what the scriptures say about that thar clay:
Rom 9:21-23 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make
one vessel, indeed, for honor,
yet one for dishonor? (22) Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, (23) it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -"
It does not say that God made one vessel and that vessel was dishonorable and honorable.
Two different vessels out of the same kneading bro. That's what the whole point is about: Jacob I love (vessel of mercy) yet Esau I hate (vessel of indignation). Moses (vessel of mercy) Pharaoh (vessel of indignation). Believers, or chosen (vessel of mercy) unchosen (vessels of indignation).
Also there are two different types of vessels: vessels of indignation and different vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy are not the same vessels as that of indignation.
Quote from: Tony N on January 12, 2009, 07:49:42 PMTwo different vessels out of the same kneading bro. That's what the whole point is about: Jacob I love (vessel of mercy) yet Esau I hate (vessel of indignation). Moses (vessel of mercy) Pharaoh (vessel of indignation). Believers, or chosen (vessel of mercy) unchosen (vessels of indignation).
Also there are two different types of vessels: vessels of indignation and different vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy are not the same vessels as that of indignation.
As far as "people" are concerned, the people who are first shown no mercy are the same people who are later shown mercy.
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will
have mercy upon her that
had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Hi Tony,
This will really blow your mind.
I only see two men in the Bible, Adam and Christ. Everyone I know is or will be somewhere in the process of putting off the old and putting on the new. This is accomplished as Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven. The destiny of us all is summed up in these 2 men.
God is making man in His image.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 09:38:38 PM
Hi Tony,
This will really blow your mind.
I only see two men in the Bible, Adam and Christ. Everyone I know is or will be somewhere in the process of putting off the old and putting on the new. This is accomplished as Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven. The destiny of us all is summed up in these 2 men.
God is making man in His image.
cp
we see this ensample throughtout scripture, cain/able, esau/jacob...earthy/heavenly....carnal/spiritual...ETC.
Good point CP.
peace
chuckt
Tony, I only have to look within my being to see the truth of what I am saying. It matters nothing to me about what happened in 70 AD unless it pertains to my life and yours right now. It matters little to me that God made some vessels out of clay and some He liked and some He didn't unless this is speaking about me and you, not us and them.
I just don't see the Bible as an us and them thing. It is a me thing and a you thing and a every person thing.
I see all people as a tiny part of a much bigger whole and I see each person as a world made up of seemingly infinite things.
God so loves the world (you and me and....) that He sends His Son to save!
cp
Quote from: bobf on January 12, 2009, 08:15:58 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 12, 2009, 07:49:42 PMTwo different vessels out of the same kneading bro. That's what the whole point is about: Jacob I love (vessel of mercy) yet Esau I hate (vessel of indignation). Moses (vessel of mercy) Pharaoh (vessel of indignation). Believers, or chosen (vessel of mercy) unchosen (vessels of indignation).
Also there are two different types of vessels: vessels of indignation and different vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy are not the same vessels as that of indignation.
As far as "people" are concerned, the people who are first shown no mercy are the same people who are later shown mercy.
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Im just wondering if this is the Same Potter
Seems the POTTER is able to Re make that which was Marred, if he so desires
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
For me He did that with Paul , or was Paul Innocent, therefore , not in Need of Mercy ,or Maybe he wasnt a VESSEL OF dishonour to begin with ...or natural( soulish) even ,or corruptible ,or with Infirmity :sigh:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 12, 2009, 08:08:08 PM
Zeek
so Kim,
are you part time "son" and part time "bastard". When sinning, you must be lacking faith, so then a bastard;
Fireinfolding
No thats not how I see it. I understand that its the Lord that examines us and we are bastards and not sons when we are**without** chastisement which all are partakers. Why should a living man complain when He is punished for his sins? If the good I will "that" I do not but the evil **I hate** that I do, Im in agreement not disagreement with Him.
If on the otherhand I delight in the evil I do and do not hate it how is that being in agreement with Him? The fear of the Lord (which is "the beginning of" wisdom) IS to HATE **evil** and I see that in Paul's struggle. If He said, "the evil I LOVE Im just not allowed to do, what agreement is in that? :grin:
Zeek
and when living by faith, the Spirit is in you and you are no longer in the Flesh, so then a son??
Fireinfolding
The law is not of faith, and without the law sin is to be dead and anything not from faith (which worketh by love) is sin. I see a "keeping in step with the Spirit" or walking by the Spirit (an exercise of sorts) a putting to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit. It does speak of our obedience "being fulfilled" in the power (given) to become Sons and go onto perfection. Jesus did say everyone that is perfect will be like their Master and even though I *know* I'm not doesnt cast doubt on His words that that is true. Because the disciples were far from it :grin:
Zeek
There is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
so if John 5:24 is true, then are we in Adam (death) or are we in Christ (life).
I continue to see relevance to this topic on wheat and tares,
that if u are "in Christ", you have passed from "tares" into "wheat". We are a new creation. I continue to hold that fire that tries your faith is just that, trieng "faith", not trieing for lack of faith.
Fireinfolding
I agree we talked about this before on another forum, it was after Heaven opened when God said "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" THEN He was led into the wilderness to be tested not before.
WHAT exactly is there "to test" prior to our faith? :grin: I cant agree more that our faith (not lack of it) is tried... Like its anything in our flesh that can "please God" :grin:
Zeek
How can I be a tare or have tares within me, when I have passed from death to life??
Fireinfolding
I dont think I ever said that I sorta stay with whats written so I might have said "sin dwelleth within me" but the power of sin is the law and without the law sin is supposedly dead. It would be the administration of death I see we pass from. From an unable position (without strength) to being made ABLE (through His power or strength) to become Sons.
Even if your a wheat as Peter he was sifted as wheat it was His faith (as little as it was) Christ prayed would not fail but his conversion was still left yet unrealized. Without faith theres no pleasing God because the flesh certainly can please Him. He is teaching sinners His ways. Just like Enoch
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
I'm seeing this spiritually speaking as we "pass from" death into life here and now
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ("without faith" its imposible to please Him) So he had the testimony before he "passed" (same word as translated) Enoch means "dedicated" (taught of God) shows a prefigure of one who "keeps my saying" in relation to not seeing death pertaining to what Jesus was speaking of. This translation from (death /darkness) is shown elsewhere by John who hath said GOD "hath translated us" from "the power of" darkness and into his marvelous light, even the Kingdom of His dear Son. Not found (being by faith) having not a righteousness by the law (which is NOT of faith) but being FOUND IN HIM. I see them as spiritual truths as we are to compare spiritual with spiritual. The grave Paul speak of is in direction to the law and the victory 1Cr 15:56 we have in Christ (through faith).
God calls things that are not as though they were and "though Christ were a Son" he learned obedience through what He suffered. He was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness and He Come back in the power of the Spirit to preach.
So if tribulation worketh patience (which is a fruit of the Spirit) then tribulation is nessesary for the fruit of it. If self control is a fruit of the Spirit then being tempted in all ways as we are appears an excercise unto righteousness and doing well in it.
Zeek
sincerly wondering, or am i misunderstanding??
Fireinfolding
I dont know, Im just as you a disciple (learner) and I dont consider myself having all the answers (teacher) I sit WITH YOU and share many of the same questions... "What MEANETH He when He saith thus and such"? :grin:
I ask all the time, "Am I misunderstanding" but He does teach us I'm just dont pretend I have all the answers, just puzzle pieces :grin:
I know this post is not directed to me sis , but it has some awesome truths in it
who is perfect but the Lord declares it !
even Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations [plural] :mshock:
I wonder if the Lord deterimins this by generations ?
there is alot of fulfillment is certain generation
a perfect heart , the new one the Lord gives us maybe that keeps all His Law ?
Hi T, You wrote....
Im just wondering if this is the Same Potter
Seems the POTTER is able to Re make that which was Marred, if he so desires
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
For me He did that with Paul , or was Paul Innocent, therefore , not in Need of Mercy ,or Maybe he wasnt a VESSEL OF dishonour to begin with ...or natural( soulish) even ,or corruptible ,or with Infirmity
Good words IMO.
I too see that the Potter not only made the more pleasurable vessel second, He made it out of the first. First the natural then the spiritual. First the Goliath and then the David. First the Pharoah and then Moses. First the Cain and then the Able. First the Brothers and then Joseph. On and on it goes. Each person is first mortal and then, by Christ, immortal, first corruptable and then, by God, incorruptable. First the inferior wine and then, by Jesus, the best wine.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 10:13:50 PM
Hi T, You wrote....
Im just wondering if this is the Same Potter
Seems the POTTER is able to Re make that which was Marred, if he so desires
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
For me He did that with Paul , or was Paul Innocent, therefore , not in Need of Mercy ,or Maybe he wasnt a VESSEL OF dishonour to begin with ...or natural( soulish) even ,or corruptible ,or with Infirmity
Good words IMO.
I too see that the Potter not only made the more pleasurable vessel second, He made it out of the first. First the natural then the spiritual. First the Goliath and then the David. First the Pharoah and then Moses. First the Cain and then the Able. First the Brothers and then Joseph. On and on it goes. Each person is first mortal and then, by Christ, immortal, first corruptable and then, by God, incorruptable. First the inferior wine and then, by Jesus, the best wine.
cp
I too see scripture repeats itself time and Time again , Until you just cant deny what your seeing , as Chuckt posted
Cain\Abel Esau \Jacob , then you see Asleep\ Awake, Darkness \Light, Night\ Day and on it goes... :thumbsup:
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 09:48:54 PM
Tony, I only have to look within my being to see the truth of what I am saying. It matters nothing to me about what happened in 70 AD unless it pertains to my life and yours right now. It matters little to me that God made some vessels out of clay and some He liked and some He didn't unless this is speaking about me and you, not us and them.
I just don't see the Bible as an us and them thing. It is a me thing and a you thing and a every person thing.
I see all people as a tiny part of a much bigger whole and I see each person as a world made up of seemingly infinite things.
God so loves the world (you and me and....) that He sends His Son to save!
cp
I've been enjoying your posts cp. To add to your point here . . . could we flip this around as well and say that if the things Christ was telling "that" generation about events that would happen 2000 years later, what importance would that have on them back then? Why the air of urgency and imminence if it wasn't meant for them in the first place?
The flesh profiteth nothing . . . if you told me that 200 years (rather than 2000) from now, Jesus is going to destroy the earth . .seriously . . how would that relate to me? If Jesus lives in the "Now" why do we embrace things that were intended to be taken literally to them "then"?
The first question I challenge anyone reading this particular post is . . .how old are you spiritually? This has nothing to do with when you got saved. But it has everything to do with how mature you are. Be careful not to fall back on false humility with your answer and see yourself in the infancy of your relationship with Christ. As he's not looking for a baby bride, but one that is old enough to reproduce.
We're to approach the kingdom as a child, yes, but there is a maturity that transforms you "as" you walk in said kingdom. And with that maturity comes new or at least different perspectives in how the word is to be digested. I say all of that to simply say the things Paul wrote was not to mature beleivers . . .most likely, not even to adolescent believers. They were mostly infants and toddlers. And the letters written to them were the BASICS of Christianity.
Just as there is a progression to the tabernacle, there is also a progression of maturity in our walk. It is the spirit that matures as it is the spirit that rightly divides. In this maturity, it's very difficult for one to grow deeper when one embraces food intended for infants. So the things written to them was food for where they were then. They needed things spelled out for them and simple instructions of Christian living explained to them . . . they were just kids.
When I was a child, I spoke and thought as a child . .but what? But when I became I man, I still embraced the same things that nurtured me as a child? No, I "put away" childish things. So what was given to them, was meant for them, otherwise . . .what's the point? They had a hard enough time trying to digest the things that were for them, how on earth would they expect to glean anything that was supposedly for a generation 2,000 years later?
I am now thinking about what Tony said the other day, about hyper spirituality.
He meant it in a derogatory sense but that got me thinking. Who is more 'hyper' spiritual than God or Jesus for that matter? Jesus worships His Father who IS spirit. Jesus said His words are spirit. Our Holy Guide is Spirit.
Looking at all this I can only believe the path to God is a spiritual one. I also conclude that all physical events must be God's way of telling us some spiritual truth. All of Scripture must be teaching us of spiritual realities.
I think, to anthropomorphize (God I love that word. I think it's the first time I used it!) anyway to use human words, I think God is as proud as a peacock over His home which is the world of the spirit. I think He gets goose bumps every time we see through the physical to His real home and meaning. Why we want to take everything so physical literal is beyond me. Don't we want God? If we do then I say go where He lives and He'll invite you in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, God is far beyond what I can imagine so that's where I am going to find Him, WAY OUT THERE. I trust He will keep me from all the BS that gets slung in His name! ( A little crude there but I think appropriate.)
cp
Zeek wrote...
How can I be a tare or have tares within me, when I have passed from death to life??
It is in the passing that you experience the tares. They are even more noticable because of the 'passing' IMO.
Zeek, with God there is no past, present or future as at least I understand those things. You are getting hung up on them. You have passed from death to life in Jesus. You are passing from death to life in Jesus. You will pass from death to life in Jesus. Doesn't matter how you say it, it's the truth!
Zeek, IMO again, you will never lose your uniqueness which means you will be taking your 'clay' experience with you in some spiritual way. You will not take 'sin' with you but you will retain your individuality, that crap that makes you, you; that makes you lovable to those who love you. I had a friend write to me the other day and said he doesn't want to picture me, his friend, sitting on some cloud strumming some instrument. He wants to see ME there and I knew what he meant.
OK, why did I get off on that tangent? God only knows. Better stop.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 10:59:22 PM
I am now thinking about what Tony said the other day, about hyper spirituality.
He meant it in a derogatory sense but that got me thinking. Who is more 'hyper' spiritual than God or Jesus for that matter? Jesus worships His Father who IS spirit. Jesus said His words are spirit. Our Holy Guide is Spirit.
Looking at all this I can only believe the path to God is a spiritual one. I also conclude that all physical events must be God's way of telling us some spiritual truth. All of Scripture must be teaching us of spiritual realities.
I think, to anthropomorphize (God I love that word. I think it's the first time I used it!) anyway to use human words, I think God is as proud as a peacock over His home which is the world of the spirit. I think He gets goose bumps every time we see through the physical to His real home and meaning. Why we want to take everything so physical literal is beyond me. Don't we want God? If we do then I say go where He lives and He'll invite you in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, God is far beyond what I can imagine so that's where I am going to find Him, WAY OUT THERE. I trust He will keep me from all the BS that gets slung in His name! ( A little crude there but I think appropriate.)
cp
DUDE YOU'RE SINGING MY SONG!!! That's it . . .where's my dancing banana!! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Nathan, did you write this.....
Literally, even though the body sleeps, the mind never does. Spiritually, when the mind sleeps, it's disengaged and the ego takes over . .and that is where the tares come from, from within my carnality. Scripture tells us to take our thoughts captive. My spirit has been given authority over both my mind and my ego. Eve would desire after her husband, but he would rule over her . .it's the same language used of God when speaking to Cain. He states Satan desired after him as well, but that he would rule over him . . .but he didn't.
cp
Uh oh . . um . . .yeah, I wrote it???? :angel5: :Whistle:
Holy Lightbulb, Brother. Hope you don't mind but I sent that whole discourse you wrote to 34 people I know. But that is not why I'm asking you this. I just re-read it for the 12th time and I think lightening hit but it could be what I had for lunch too. But here it is, mind you, this thought is not at all developed but I hope you and others can help or tell me I'm out to lunch which only means I'll keep going in my stubborn way but I'll have to go alone, again!
Anyway, here it is......
You wrote...
Literally, even though the body sleeps, the mind never does. Spiritually, when the mind sleeps, it's disengaged and the ego takes over . .and that is where the tares come from, from within my carnality. Scripture tells us to take our thoughts captive. My spirit has been given authority over both my mind and my ego. Eve would desire after her husband, but he would rule over her . .it's the same language used of God when speaking to Cain. He states Satan desired after him as well, but that he would rule over him . . .but he didn't.
This flashed through my mind.....GOD put the Man into a deep sleep. As he slept he removed one of his ribs and replaced it with flesh. GOD then used the rib that he had taken from the Man to make Woman and presented her to the Man.gen2.21
I'm thinking now. I have always believed we were made less than God's image in the beginning. This was perfectly planned by God. I see this in the fact that the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eye and pride of life was in strong operation in people before eating of the tree........
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.1jn2.16
and then notice....
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...gen3.6
See the lust of the flesh, eyes and pride of life in both? I'm sure you do.
Anyway, God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man and then Eve (soul, ego) came on scene. Adam, representing spirit was caused to sleep! then Eve, soul, dominated then all hell broke loose. When the spirit rises in resurrection power the soul gets put back in proper place.
Again this is fresh off the press so I may be out of line but let me know. You caused this, you gotta help.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 11:52:06 PM
Holy Lightbulb, Brother. Hope you don't mind but I sent that whole discourse you wrote to 34 people I know. But that is not why I'm asking you this. I just re-read it for the 12th time and I think lightening hit but it could be what I had for lunch too. But here it is, mind you, this thought is not at all developed but I hope you and others can help or tell me I'm out to lunch which only means I'll keep going in my stubborn way but I'll have to go alone, again!
Anyway, here it is......
You wrote...
Literally, even though the body sleeps, the mind never does. Spiritually, when the mind sleeps, it's disengaged and the ego takes over . .and that is where the tares come from, from within my carnality. Scripture tells us to take our thoughts captive. My spirit has been given authority over both my mind and my ego. Eve would desire after her husband, but he would rule over her . .it's the same language used of God when speaking to Cain. He states Satan desired after him as well, but that he would rule over him . . .but he didn't.
This flashed through my mind.....GOD put the Man into a deep sleep. As he slept he removed one of his ribs and replaced it with flesh. GOD then used the rib that he had taken from the Man to make Woman and presented her to the Man.gen2.21
I'm thinking now. I have always believed we were made less than God's image in the beginning. This was perfectly planned by God. I see this in the fact that the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eye and pride of life was in strong operation in people before eating of the tree........
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.1jn2.16
and then notice....
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...gen3.6
See the lust of the flesh, eyes and pride of life in both? I'm sure you do.
Anyway, God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man and then Eve (soul, ego) came on scene. Adam, representing spirit was caused to sleep! then Eve, soul, dominated then all hell broke loose. When the spirit rises in resurrection power the soul gets put back in proper place.
Again this is fresh off the press so I may be out of line but let me know. You caused this, you gotta help.
cp
I was hoping this would get Kim's attention, I've heard rumors this is a favorite room of hers . .glad to see she's stirring on it.
When God created Adam . . .Eve was in him, that everybody gets. But when seeing this in the next dimension of things . . .it's like God did some dividing before man began creating (reproducing). The pattern of Genesis, in the days of creation, God divided . . .and then reunited. He divided day from night, waters from waters, (verticle) and waters from land (horizontal). Here's a revelation I didn't realize until JUST NOW. He began by separating darkness FROM light . . .he "exposed" light. When light illuminated, it illuminated the two laws of Christ . . .love God (vertical) love neighbor (horizontal) When these two laws intersect, it forms a cross.
That was a freebie. Where I was going was, it's like an egg . . . there is the yoke, whites, and shell. And basically, God separated the three from each other. He separated Eve from Adam and made two from one, and then brought them back together as one so that they could reproduce another. And if you pay special attention to the "when" they saw they were naked . .it didn't happen when "she" ate. When she ate, there was no change. But when Adam received from Eve and did eat . . .immediately they "knew".
And knowing immediately brought guilt and shame. In the literal sense, nothing changed. They were still who they were before, but with this disorder of spirit and soul, knowledge determined reality. And knowledge invoked fear. And part of the judgement then was, Eve was separated from the serpent. The beginning of the emnity. When I first came into this, I did struggle some with this part because it is clear the soul is connected to the woman and the spirit is connected to the man . .it's the serpent I couldn't immediately place in the puzzle.
I "knew" it's not who we've been taught it to be mainly because if it was the devil that most envision, then God would never have had to place the enmity there, the warring . .no, the serpent was "part" of Eve and God separated the two due to the disorder they initiated.
What's the name of this thread?? . . .natural and spiritual . .oh, good, then this can still be connected to the thread.
There is so much in this room, take your time, you just opened a door and not everything is always clear immediately. But take note of this voice in you that led you here . .it's the same voice that will do the clarifying in you. God wants to reveal himself to his bride . . .but she's lost something. Jesus said he came to seek and to save that which is lost yes??? Well, that's not referring to people, otherwise he would seek "who" is lost. What got lost is identity. Adam lost it when he turned to be fed by his soul rather than "be" the one that does the feeding "to" the soul.
If you want to understand Revelation . . the book and the experience, the gate leading there is in Genesis . .because it's our origin. When we realize who we are, we'll be able to see fully who He is. We need to go back to the beginning and find where the identity was lost so that we can get it back. My identity (for me) is my face. If you have a lost child, what's the first thing people ask? "What do they look like?" Have you ever seen anyone bring a picture of their lost loved one and it's a picture of their foot? Hand? No, all you need is a head shot . .a picture of their "face".
When Adam brought the disorder of God into his being, it changed his identity. His identity was no longer the son of God, it became the son of labor. His identity was the sweat (labor) of his FACE (not brow).
Genesis 3
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Oh man, I just saw something in this last verse . .but because this is already going long . . .I'll hold on to it.
Quote from: NathanWhat got lost is identity. Adam lost it when he turned to be fed by his soul rather than "be" the one that does the feeding "to" the soul.
If you want to understand Revelation . . the book and the experience, the gate leading there is in Genesis . .because it's our origin. When we realize who we are, we'll be able to see fully who He is. We need to go back to the beginning and find where the identity was lost so that we can get it back. My identity (for me) is my face. If you have a lost child, what's the first thing people ask? "What do they look like?" Have you ever seen anyone bring a picture of their lost loved one and it's a picture of their foot? Hand? No, all you need is a head shot . .a picture of their "face".
When Adam brought the disorder of God into his being, it changed his identity. His identity was no longer the son of God, it became the son of labor. His identity was the sweat (labor) of his FACE (not brow).
"What got lost is identity"
Who told thee that thou wast naked?--Gen 3
Jesus starts his ministry where we last saw Adam--in the wilderness.
But, this time, satan is defeated, because man has the Word, as Jesus begins to rewind our lost identity back to the beginning.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. --Gen 1
The Word become flesh--
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. --Gen 1
And, our identity restored as he rolls back the scroll to the beginning--
12For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood by God.--1 Cor 13
Where are you?--Gen 3
Where were you--
7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?--Job 38
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, What is the bread? It is the Word of God . . .Jesus stated that man (flesh) can not live on bread ( the Word) alone, but on every word "proceeding" out of the mouth of God. There is a big difference between a written word and a proceeding word. A Proceeding word is a "fresh" word, an "in this moment" word. The written word remains where it was when it was originally spoken. But a proceeding word is one that is with you ALWAYS
till thou return unto the ground; Till you return to the ground . . .man this is huge for me. He's saying that you will "labor" for your understanding out of the Word UNTIL you RETURN to the GROUND . . .the earth . . .until you DIE TO YOUR FLESH!!! Stop laboring with your natural reasoning and die unto yourself. Stop depending on your own confidence in what you think you know.
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Dust is the meat of the serpent. God created Adam "from" the earth, and afterwards "placed" him in the garden (spirit). Adam was not created from the spirit, he was created from the earth and "placed" in the spirit. How can flesh live in the spirit? Easy . . because Adam is not flesh, he is spirit. His body is simply a vessel containing that which God BREATHED. But when Adam introduced disorder, the things established in Adam remained (ability to reproduce) but what was separated was the intimate relationship.
The dust you return to . . is the meat your flesh, your ego consumes. The more you feed the beast, the hungrier and bigger he gets. Ever see what happens to the neighborhood dogs when two dogs get into a fight? You really want to break it up ASAP otherwise every dog around will be in on it. It's their "natural" instinct. When the serpent "in me" . .yes . .in me.
Look, if you didn't have any blemishes in you after the Spirit of life comes in, why then would Scripture have to tell you to take captive your thoughts? If you were that pure, you wouldn't have faithless thoughts that needed capturing. So I still stand . . .you have both wheat and tares in you. And the more you concentrait on the natural realm in you, the more it will consume you. This serpent did just that . . .he shows up again in Revelation, but there, he's not a serpent anymore, he's grown into a full-blown dragon.
Don't dwell in the dust with the earth-dwelling people. You're only setting yourself up for lunch of your adversary within you.
sigh . .gotta go back to work.
Blessings.
For mine I see the Dark Glass as the Shadow , Not the TRUE reflection of WHO we are ,The reality SHOWS HIS face , not ours , BUT when SEE The reality , we see( understand) HIS face ( FACE to Face) ,The Identity we once lost
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
"proceedeth"
G1607
ἐκπορεύομαι
ekporeuomai
ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee
From G1537 and G4198; to depart, be discharged, proceed, project: - come (forth, out of), depart, go (forth, out), issue, proceed (out of).
God has a 'mouth'?
Oh, my goodness, he's talking about our words, 'ĕlôhîym. :mshock:
Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Hi Molly
What forms words is OUR Tongue ..., That Little RUDDER :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:14:35 AM
For mine I see the Dark Glass as the Shadow , Not the TRUE reflection of WHO we are ,The reality SHOWS HIS face , not ours , BUT when SEE The reality , we see( understand) HIS face ( FACE to Face) ,The Identity we once lost
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
It's a darkened mirror. When we look into it, we can't clearly see the reflection. We can't see what we look like.
--Until, the darkness (the veil) is removed, and we can see clearly--the glory of the Lord.
[with]
"open" [face]
G343
ἀνακαλύπτω
anakaluptōan-ak-al-oop'-to
From G303
(in the sense of reversal) and G2572;
to unveil: - open, ([un-]) taken away.
Quote from: Molly on January 13, 2009, 02:21:46 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:14:35 AM
For mine I see the Dark Glass as the Shadow , Not the TRUE reflection of WHO we are ,The reality SHOWS HIS face , not ours , BUT when SEE The reality , we see( understand) HIS face ( FACE to Face) ,The Identity we once lost
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
It's a darkened mirror. When we look into it, we can't clearly see the reflection. We can't see what we look like.
--Until, the darkness (the veil) is removed, and we can see clearly--the glory of the Lord.
[with] "open" [face]
G343
ἀνακαλύπτω
anakaluptō
an-ak-al-oop'-to
From G303 (in the sense of reversal) and G2572; to unveil: - open, ([un-]) taken away.
The shadow is the Darkness Molly , Tis the Same .
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ
Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
The shadow is NOT the Reality of the Light.
The pharisees were led and Trusted In the Shadow or form..tis all the same
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:19:19 AM
Hi Molly
What forms words is OUR Tongue ..., That Little RUDDER :icon_flower:
Yeah, and the rudder is connected to the boat, the ark--the heart.
Psalm 31:24
Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 02:20:50 AM
Nathan
I was hoping this would get Kim's attention, I've heard rumors this is a favorite room of hers . .glad to see she's stirring on it.
Fireinfolding
Hi Nat, yes its my favorite but Jeff doesnt prefer my use of the scriptures, he prefers ones own words so I only posted a few. I'll just watch the reasonings before I get involved, and I just cant follow along as well without them so I'll step out of the way. I might jump back in and respond elsewhere during the course of the chat though
:HeartThrob:
Jeff? Jeff who??
Jeff Claypot :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:53:19 AM
Jeff Claypot :icon_flower:
Well . . huh. What dya know about that. Doesn't like to see people quotin' Scriptures? Hm. Interesting
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 09:38:38 PM
Hi Tony,
This will really blow your mind.
I only see two men in the Bible, Adam and Christ. Everyone I know is or will be somewhere in the process of putting off the old and putting on the new. This is accomplished as Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven. The destiny of us all is summed up in these 2 men.
God is making man in His image.
cp
CP, I lost my dear beloved puppy today. But you know what? what you wrote above is really nice! Thanks!
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 13, 2009, 03:08:17 AM
CP, I lost my dear beloved puppy today. But you know what? what you wrote above is really nice! Thanks!
Tony
I'm sorry to hear that...that's sad.
John the Baptist, whom I will call the last Levite priest, is out in the wilderness baptizing at the river Jordan. He is preparing the way of the LORD by calling people to repentance [Prepare ye the way of the LORD Isa 40:3]
"Prepare" [..the way]
H6437
ôÌðä
pânâh
paw-naw'
A primitive root; to turn; by implication to face, that is, appear, look, etc.: - appear, at [even-] tide, behold, cast out, come on, X corner, dawning, empty, go away, lie, look, mark, pass away, prepare, regard, (have) respect (to), (re-) turn (aside, away, back, face, self), X right [early].
This is the same place where Joshua led his people across to the promised land. A spiritual divide is now about to be crossed and John is baptizing in preparation for the coming of the Christ. But, John himself is just the messenger [God's angel]; he will not cross over that divide himself, but, rather, prepares others to cross.
Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
We have seen two baptisms up to this point--the two baptisms of the Old Testament--
1)The dry baptism of Moses, where the people cross the Red Sea on dry ground after Moses raises his staff from the shore causing the waters to recede. [set apart] [first circumcision]
2)The baptism of Joshua, where the people cross the Jordan river after the priests have stepped in the water up to their ankles causing the water to recede. [set apart set apart] [second circumcision]
And, now the baptism of John, at that same Jordan river, which is a total submersion in water, signifying a total cleansing unto repentance.
[I baptize you with water unto] "repentance"
From the root word:
G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
John's baptism is a cusp--the last baptism of the Old Testament by a Levite priest, and the first baptism of the New Testament.
John, eater of wild honey [new] and locusts [old], is handing over the baton of the priesthood from the Levites to Melchizedek. This will move the priesthood from the natural to the spiritual--and the priestline inheritance from a bloodline father to son to a spiritual Father to Son. Henceforth the baptism from set apart [holy] to set apart set apart [holy holy] will be a spiritual one.
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 1:36
And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Quote from: Tony N on January 13, 2009, 03:08:17 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 09:38:38 PM
Hi Tony,
This will really blow your mind.
I only see two men in the Bible, Adam and Christ. Everyone I know is or will be somewhere in the process of putting off the old and putting on the new. This is accomplished as Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven. The destiny of us all is summed up in these 2 men.
God is making man in His image.
cp
CP, I lost my dear beloved puppy today. But you know what? what you wrote above is really nice! Thanks!
Tony
Hey Tony, believe it or not I did think to add that all creation (your puppy included) awaits God's finished masterpiece which is man in His image but I didn't want things to get too long. I did say the destiny of all is summed up in these 2 men.
Your puppy,IMO,in some mysterious way, has God's attention like no other puppy in creation, you can take that to the bank me thinks.
I sat watching my woodburner last night wondering why things can be so hard. I talked to this all pervading power we call God. Why is it so tough to live happily down here I asked. I knew what it would take to make me content at that moment but then I wondered, would it? Would what I had in mind for my life really make me happy, happy for an eternity? Probably not so I concluded that what I and all of us are going through (losing puppies and all) is for our long term happiness. I know you probably know this but just wanted to share a bit. Life is hard, so dang hard, but you gotta admit, it has it's moments!
cp
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 03:28:00 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 13, 2009, 03:03:56 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:53:19 AM
Jeff Claypot :icon_flower:
Well . . huh. What dya know about that. Doesn't like to see people quotin' Scriptures? Hm. Interesting
Yes Jeff is Claypot, I remember him from my forum when he was on a couple years ago. He has his preferences I appeared to have fustrated him and dont want to do that, I'm just trying to honor in him in that respect.
Come on, I'm getting bad publicity here. ha ha ha.
I love Scripture (and I don't use the word 'love' lightly). It's just that I think anyone whom God works in has their own way of speaking Scripture and to use other people's words (yes, even Bible translations) many times for me clouds what they are trying to say. For example, I get more out of some of Nathan's writings and my reading of Scripture than I do out of just Nathan quoting Scripture. Hope this makes sense.
Also when I read many of the writings on this forum I see Scripture very clearly in the persons own words. It's like people can put life into my Bible by sharing from their own uniqueness and heart.
Now, Kim who the
he....heck are you? You have not frustrated me, I think you are just a bit beyond me in what you are trying to communicate sometimes. It's my bad for being too lazy to focus more on your words but things move fast here and I try to keep up.
Molly, I totally respect you but I want to say that your way of communicating and Kims are very close and I have been helped by them as I know others have too. How can a person not be helped by the Word of God displayed by a child of God?
Hope this clears up a few things.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 13, 2009, 03:25:49 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 03:28:00 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 13, 2009, 03:03:56 AM
Quote from: Taffy on January 13, 2009, 02:53:19 AM
Jeff Claypot :icon_flower:
Well . . huh. What dya know about that. Doesn't like to see people quotin' Scriptures? Hm. Interesting
Yes Jeff is Claypot, I remember him from my forum when he was on a couple years ago. He has his preferences I appeared to have fustrated him and dont want to do that, I'm just trying to honor in him in that respect.
Come on, I'm getting bad publicity here. ha ha ha.
I love Scripture (and I don't use the word 'love' lightly). It's just that I think anyone whom God works in has their own way of speaking Scripture and to use other people's words (yes, even Bible translations) many times for me clouds what they are trying to say. For example, I get more out of some of Nathan's writings and my reading of Scripture than I do out of just Nathan quoting Scripture. Hope this makes sense.
Also when I read many of the writings on this forum I see Scripture very clearly in the persons own words. It's like people can put life into my Bible by sharing from their own uniqueness and heart.
Now, Kim who the he....heck are you? You have not frustrated me, I think you are just a bit beyond me in what you are trying to communicate sometimes. It's my bad for being too lazy to focus more on your words but things move fast here and I try to keep up.
Molly, I totally respect you but I want to say that your way of communicating and Kims are very close and I have been helped by them as I know others have too. How can a person not be helped by the Word of God displayed by a child of God?
Hope this clears up a few things.
cp
To be honest bud, I guess I lean that way as well . . . in the sense that I do find myself struggling sometimes with those that depend wholly on what a passage states . .and I have stated somewhere . . .about the idea that things that were written were written to spiritual infants for the most part . .for me, I'd exclude Hebrews but even in there, the author touches on the fact that his readers "should" be teaching others by now and yet they still are craving milk yet themselves. So yeah, I see your point.
I think sometimes I may even come across to others with the thinking that Scripture isn't that important. But for me, that's the foundation. It's just when you build a house, you don't live in the foundation, you live in the house. But without a foundation, you have no house. The Scripture is a great extension of the spirit to all of us . . when it's rightly divided (by the spirit, not by my head). Cardinal had the best explanation for how that works . .and for the life of me, I can't remember how it went.
But it went along the lines of "in the beginning, the Word illuminated the Spirit to me. Now, the Spirit illuminates the Word . . ." That's not doing justice to how she put it, but that's the general idea. There's always a balance to everything. And, the Word is "in" me so things come to me that I don't know if, or where they are at in Scripture, and as time goes on, the passage pops up that affirms what I saw but couldn't quote. Most people don't like getting quoted at all the time either. But when you share things on a personal level, they seem to be received on a much broader scale. There will always be those that get frustrated that you don't quote line by line to back up what you see . . .but I'm just not one of them.
I like the mix here. Some quote, some give definitions, some give their impression, and we all benefit. It's all good.
Nathan, how you do it is beyond me but you spoke to me again and I'm not just bragging on you. I imagine you got some 'nasty' in you too but I wanted to say you illuminated something in your last words that I don't think I would have gotten from Scripture.......... You wrote.........
But it went along the lines of "in the beginning, the Word illuminated the Spirit to me. Now, the Spirit illuminates the Word . . ." That's not doing justice to how she put it.....
First of all, that quote is something I'm going to Scripture with and check out because I hear a strong ring of good stuff there but the real revelation is you called Card, who I greatly admire, a she! I had no idea! lol I am so dense sometimes!!!!
cp
Oh, I'm sure there's some nasty in me somewhere, but I'm training my head to be blind to it . . .I figure if God is blind to sin, due to the blood of the Lamb in me, then it only stands to reason, I shouldn't acknowledge the nasty either. When it surfaces . . .I'll see that as purpose and not failure. Like everything else that gets purged, the surfacing of the dredge simply means now, it can be removed. But that's God's department to do the removal. Mine is to let him.
As for Cardinal . . she's quite the song bird and I so enjoy her melodies.
Perhaps that's why the spirit "hovered" over the face of the deep. I know it says "moved" but the word actually means to hover, at any rate, for me, I see that everything needs balance. Gotta have the Word there in order to build on. Can't just take someone's word for it . .and as a matter of fact, there are many times that someone's comments sends me to the Scripture to check out either references or context.
I'd say Claypot . . .share it out as it comes to you. If you don't quote Scriptures, that's just fine . . .many times people misinterpret them anyway. Share what the Spirit is revealing and it will "bring out" life within the Scriptures which will lead us in them as well. I don't quote Scriptures about 80% of the time either. I have Molly for that :laughing7:
And Kim, share with us those things within you in what ever form they come in. If quoting Scripture is needed to present the topic and message, by all means, quote away. Often times that leads also into a comparison of different Bible versions which sheds even more light. And when you lay it out there "with" the text, for me, it ignites other things combined from what you say with what you quote and it helps me see like you see . . .which is what I've been wanting ever since you came back . . .give me both barrels girl!!! Hold nothing back! :Shoot:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 06:56:49 PM
Okey dokey Nat :grin:
Thanks bro, can you help me understand in the context of scripture Adam = living Soul and Woman (His soul) and she was decieved (the woman was in transgression) how all in Adam die and not all in Eve/ his soul (die) but she (his soul) becomes the mother of all the living? Im lost on that. Why doesnt Paul say it that way? Why does Paul say comparitively use Eve as a figure of the Church/ Woman (made up of male and female) and speaks to them corporately (as a whole persons with body soul and spirits) being decieved in the same way (through the serpents beguiling) corrupted from the simplicity in Christ (Last Adam)
Thats sorta my question bro, I try to compare in various places concerning the picture but Im lost on how others are showing it.
Hi Fire. I agree with you that we are all unique and it would be very boring to have it any other way.
I'm kind of lost on some of your questions but let me try.
I don't see Scripture talking about the spirit as Eve's spirit or the soul as Adam's soul. I see Adam as representing spirit and Eve as representing soul. I do see people as spirits with a soul and in a flesh body and this is why I think people are summed up in Adam. The spirit is the overall make up of us individual people.
When Eve is spoken of apart from the spirit like when Paul says....
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression .1tim2.14
then I think this is God's way of communicating to us how we function apart from Him, Spirit.
I'll stop here to see if we are tracking.
By the way, Fire, forgive my denseness but what it is OGR?
cp
Actually, I believe it's connected with the fact that nothing happened when Eve ate of the fruit. It wasn't until Adam ate. The sin isn't the thought of the mind, it's the submission "of" the spirit. Spirit is not to submit to the mind, but take authority over. Or, even better, exercise the authority given to it over the mind. As strong as the mind is, it wasn't given the authority to direct the spirit, but when Adam submitted, he reversed the original order.
Which incidently, the ark of Noah (rest) that came to . . . rest . .on mount Ararat??? Ararat actually means . .the curse is reversed. The ark, being a picture of Christ and the redemptive work . . the ark had pitch applied within and without . . .pitch actually means "atonement" . .great picture.
Also, Eve was still "in" Adam when God instructed him not to eat of the tree. Eve was decieved, Adam was in submission. Eve wouldn't be blamed because she wasn't the one in authority. God doesn't blame my mind because it's not in authority. Hell isn't for emotional or physcial cleansing . .it's for spiritual . .because that's where my authority lies . .in the spirit.
We who are born, are all born in the first Adam . .spiritually dead. But those who are born in the Last Adam are resurrected . .spiritually alive. Once the spirit is affected, everything that it has authority over is also affected. Thus, when Adam reversed the order, all earth was affected because the earth was "under" Adam's authority.
Am I helping???
hey all
didnt eve represent all the living? and since adam didnt cover her sin, or be her savour all died because of him?
adam verses Christ?
adam could have been savour of ALL mankind but it wasnt the plan stan.
did i word that right?
chuckt
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 07:53:19 PM
Quote from: chuckt on January 13, 2009, 07:38:18 PM
hey all
didnt eve represent all the living? and since adam didnt cover her sin, or be her savour all died because of him?
adam verses Christ?
adam could have been savour of ALL mankind but it wasnt the plan stan.
did i word that right?
chuckt
Could be Chuck but before He turned her in Job speaks of Adam hiding his own trangressions, so even if she was in the transgression he covered his own as well so I dont know how that would work perfectly. Yet Christ was made sin and He took upon himself ours that we might be the righteousness of God in Him and that would work as a comparison between the two Adams as it relates to us as a whole.
yes i was just thinking is ""inadam"" because of something he did or didnt do? did death come to all men because of something he did or didnt do?
it says sin entered because of one man, but does it say because he ""sinned"" ??
inChrist is because of what Christ DID
maybe inadam is because of what he didnt do :mshock:
chuckt
QuoteYeah he listened to His wife :grin: Christ was "obedient unto" death to the Father and Adam was "disobedient unto" death :grin:
Polar opposites in that regard :grin:
true, i just remembered this:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
so im off in that reguard, but interesting none the less.
everytime i think i got it all figured out im wrong :winkgrin:
peace
chuckt
Hi Fire, you wrote....
Functioning apart from first Adam would be the same as fuctioning apart from God who is Spirit? Thats what I dont understand, the first Adam was a living SOUL how is it that He becomes her Spirit guide? The soul that sins shall die and if Adam (a living soul) didnt transgress but she did, why are all dead in Adam rather then Eve (who was in transgression)? She is named the mother of the living.
Chuck you wrote....
didnt eve represent all the living? and since adam didnt cover her sin, or be her savour all died because of him?
My comments:
I am a person. I see I have flesh, a power source I call spirit, I have a mind I associate with soul. If I were a master story teller I might very well call one Adam, the other Eve and the other a carnal thing or whatever.
Adam doesn't become anyone's spiritual guide. One is this, one is that. My spirit IMO needs to be in control for me to operate properly, when it doesn't all hell breaks loose.
I have 11 kids and when my wife and I are not in control, all hell breaks loose.
I think I commented on the other things in your latest comments, Fire, in my last post but maybe not.
cp
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 08:33:15 PM
I have 11 kids and when my wife and I are not in control, all hell breaks loose.
Here is how i see what your talking about, not that I disagree, just my perception.
Typically we can hear to let God have control, thats easier said than done of course. There are some that may believe that no matter how things appear, God is in control.
It is not to say that God is seeing something we do and going "Oh crap, better get over there and handle that" It is to say that we can often see that what we thought was out of control taught us why it is a good thing God is in control.
My sister has 7 kids and when they were younger to the untrained eye if you went over to her house you would think Hell indeed broke loose. The problem is that there was control there. 7 kids and their mannerisms and personalities all clashing but at the end of the day, things worked out and if you spent enough time there you could see the kids liberty top be themselves while seeing that the end goal was to keep from being on the chopping block with mom and dad. Not out of fear, but out of an understanding that when you pull back the mannerisms and personalities, they all really love mom and dad and want to please them.
All the while, Mom and Dad were not there breathing down their necks directly controlling and manipulating each move of the kids., they didn't need to be. But yes, once in a while, they needed too step in and take direct action.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 13, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 08:33:15 PM
I have 11 kids and when my wife and I are not in control, all hell breaks loose.
Here is how i see what your talking about, not that I disagree, just my perception.
Typically we can hear to let God have control, thats easier said than done of course. There are some that may believe that no matter how things appear, God is in control.
It is not to say that God is seeing something we do and going "Oh crap, better get over there and handle that" It is to say that we can often see that what we thought was out of control taught us why it is a good thing God is in control.
My sister has 7 kids and when they were younger to the untrained eye if you went over to her house you would think Hell indeed broke loose. The problem is that there was control there. 7 kids and their mannerisms and personalities all clashing but at the end of the day, things worked out and if you spent enough time there you could see the kids liberty top be themselves while seeing that the end goal was to keep from being on the chopping block with mom and dad. Not out of fear, but out of an understanding that when you pull back the mannerisms and personalities, they all really love mom and dad and want to please them.
All the while, Mom and Dad were not there breathing down their necks directly controlling and manipulating each move of the kids., they didn't need to be. But yes, once in a while, they needed too step in and take direct action.
wow that was great Paul ! :HeartThrob:
and the mannerisms and personalites are what make us different
do you think that is what is called the soul part ? just wondering
the soul seems to describe the seat of emotions and appetite
because soul and spirit seem to be very similar in some ways
when defining them
I have just been reading here on this thread for awhile
but liked your analogy of how the Lord deals with us out of chaos
as '' at times '' possible unruly children to parents
God bless ... :HeartThrob: Rose
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 08:33:15 PM
Im still not understanding how that pertains, are you seeing first Adam was a living Spirit (Male) verses a living soul and His wife as his mind or soul maybe?
I think Adam is the author of Genesis' way of describing a persons spirit or life source. Eve is the authors way of describing a persons soul or mind or mental capabilities.
Again, I am a person. Talk of spirit and soul help me only in so far as it can help me get a handle on life today, right now. I get excited over how Scripture comes together here and there too and when it shows how awesome God is but to tell you the truth if it doesn't help me see me, you and everyone else in our everyday living experience then it is just good topic for discussions.
So Fire, I am saying people have spirits and souls. They have life and minds. Period. Adam and Eve represent these realites. They both were made corruptable and mortal as the story of Adam and Eve show. They both die and get reborn and are called Jesus Christ. This is saying to me I am conceived corruptable and mortal and I will become dead to this and rise again to incorruption and immortality.
Now in practical life this is helping me. I know I will struggle all my days with one thing or another because I am in transition. I believe when my life and yours are irreversably led by the Spirit and not by the soul we will be saved. When peace and contentment are with me forever then I will be saved. I do not have peace and contentment fully now. Things are still out of adjustment. Adam and Eve are not in perfect alignment in me yet. I believe, in Christ, they are in perfect alignment and I do see myself as in Christ so on that plane I do see myself saved.
This is not a man and woman thing. It is a people thing, all people. Adam and Eve are each person.
cp
The way I see it, which is pretty much literal--
Adam was given the breath of God, Eve was not. She is like Adam's flesh clone, taken out of his rib.
But, she doesn't have the Holy Spirit, so she is deceived by satan.
I'm thinking more and more that man does not have his own spirit, other than the breath, which all living animals have. All have a soul (nephesh), but a 'living' soul is a quickened soul. Adam was a quickened soul, but Jesus is a quickening Spirit--able to quicken others. (Jesus was the fulness of the godhead bodily).
So Adam, who is called god-Man, is standing there in the midst of the garden watching satan deceive Eve and there's nothing he can do about it because he is not able to quicken her to see the error of her ways. So he does the next best thing--he sacrifices himself for her (a figure of the one to come).
Why do I say that? The garden is set up like the temple. Outside the garden (where Adam is formed of clay) is the outer court, inside the garden is the holy place where everything can be eaten, and the two trees are in the midst of the garden-- the holy of holies. Only the high priest can go into the most holy place, and then not without blood. The only blood Adam, the first high priest, had was his own, which at the point that Eve sinned (she was the one deceived) was pure, innocent, blameless because he was not deceived.
So we have this drama set up at the beginning. And, with Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden, which otherwise would not have happened, there is now the possibility of saving many souls alive.
Jesus calls himself son of Adam. He has come as the kinsman redeemer, to redeem his kinfolk, by paying off their debt (the wages of sin is death).
Wow, both of you, Molly and Claypot . . . very revelational of you.
Quote from: Molly on January 13, 2009, 09:44:48 PM
The way I see it, which is pretty much literal--
Adam was given the breath of God, Eve was not. She is like Adam's flesh clone, taken out of his rib.
But, she doesn't have the Holy Spirit, so she is deceived by satan.
I'm thinking more and more that man does not have his own spirit, other than the breath, which all living animals have. All have a soul (nephesh), but a 'living' soul is a quickened soul. Adam was a quickened soul, but Jesus is a quickening Spirit--able to quicken others. (Jesus was the fulness of the godhead bodily).
So Adam, who is called god-Man, is standing there in the midst of the garden watching satan deceive Eve and there's nothing he can do about it because he is not able to quicken her to see the error of her ways. So he does the next best thing--he sacrifices himself for her (a figure of the one to come).
Why do I say that? The garden is set up like the temple. Outside the garden (where Adam is formed of clay) is the outer court, inside the garden is the holy place where everything can be eaten, and the two trees are in the midst of the garden-- the holy of holies. Only the high priest can go into the most holy place, and then not without blood. The only blood Adam, the first high priest, had was his own, which at the point that Eve sinned (she was the one deceived) was pure, innocent, blameless because he was not deceived.
So we have this drama set up at the beginning. And, with Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden, which otherwise would not have happened, there is now the possibility of saving many souls alive.
Jesus calls himself son of Adam. He has come as the kinsman redeemer, to redeem his kinfolk, by paying off their debt (the wages of sin is death).
ok this is excellent and need much consideration, something is missing though, cant put my fingure on it.........THANKS!
Quote from: Chuckok this is excellent and need much consideration, something is missing though, cant put my fingure on it.........THANKS!
Hey, I'm a woman. I'm not going to tell you everything I know. :laughing7:
I realize this is going off topic. After this maybe we can get back on topic?
As most of you know my dear little puppy died (was put to sleep) on my birthday yesterday.
I prayed and prayed to our Father as to why this had to happen.
Now, it is not like I hear voices speaking or anything like that but in a way the Scriptures or Word does speak to me. As I walked around the neighborhood it was as if God was telling me, in my deepest sadness, that it is He Who gives to all, life and breath and all, and it is He Who gives and Who takes away. It was like He was saying to me that I am Lord of heaven and earth and it was I who strengthened your heart in order to have the vet put her to death. Otherwise you would not due to your love for the pup. But she had to die. And in spite of you thinking this was the worst birthday you ever experienced, it is actually the one birthday which you have recieved the greatest gift; the gift of understanding. For you have to learn an invaluable lesson and the only way I could teach that lesson to you was through the death of your beloved pup. I am God. I am the Father Who is Lord of heaven and earth.
And so my birthday brightened up a little as a greater understanding emerged.
Thank you God and Father.
Tony
Quote from: claypot on January 13, 2009, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 13, 2009, 03:08:17 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 09:38:38 PM
Hi Tony,
This will really blow your mind.
I only see two men in the Bible, Adam and Christ. Everyone I know is or will be somewhere in the process of putting off the old and putting on the new. This is accomplished as Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven. The destiny of us all is summed up in these 2 men.
God is making man in His image.
cp
CP, I lost my dear beloved puppy today. But you know what? what you wrote above is really nice! Thanks!
Tony
Hey Tony, believe it or not I did think to add that all creation (your puppy included) awaits God's finished masterpiece which is man in His image but I didn't want things to get too long. I did say the destiny of all is summed up in these 2 men.
Your puppy,IMO,in some mysterious way, has God's attention like no other puppy in creation, you can take that to the bank me thinks.
I sat watching my woodburner last night wondering why things can be so hard. I talked to this all pervading power we call God. Why is it so tough to live happily down here I asked. I knew what it would take to make me content at that moment but then I wondered, would it? Would what I had in mind for my life really make me happy, happy for an eternity? Probably not so I concluded that what I and all of us are going through (losing puppies and all) is for our long term happiness. I know you probably know this but just wanted to share a bit. Life is hard, so dang hard, but you gotta admit, it has it's moments!
cp
Hey Tony :icon_flower:
That was sure touching Bro,it really was... Thanks for sharing :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 13, 2009, 10:44:36 PM
Clay
I think Adam is the author of Genesis' way of describing a persons spirit or life source. Eve is the authors way of describing a persons soul or mind or mental capabilities.
Fireinfolding
Thats what I dont understand, Adam is shown as the living Soul and Christ the life quickening Spirit. Eve is related to as the Church and Christ as the last Adam. So I cant understand spliting them as if we are in first Adams Soul and Eve is first Adams mental capacity when contrary to that Eve is shown as the Church (made up of both male and female) each one having a body soul and spirit to which HIS Spirit bears witness to OURS. Him calling THEM Adam in Chapter 5 of Genesis I see as Christ and the church, not first Adam and Eve "in me" but HIM (as the last Adam ) joining US the Woman together IN HIMSELF (last Adam) in THE DAY they were created. Its when he sends his Spirit THEY are created. Theres THREE He forms he made and he created and the Spirit is conected with the created part shown in Genesis giving the recap on the 6 day where he shows it BEFORE then shows us AGAIN in Genesis 5. I see this showing Christ.
Clay
Again, I am a person. Talk of spirit and soul help me only in so far as it can help me get a handle on life today, right now. I get excited over how Scripture comes together here and there too and when it shows how awesome God is but to tell you the truth if it doesn't help me see me, you and everyone else in our everyday living experience then it is just good topic for discussions.
Fireinfolding
Well I cant really tell the difference between my own soul and my spirit inwardly save the difference I can tell in regards to HIS Spirit verses my other two. But I cant understand how Adam (who is a living soul) is joined to Eve (who is often defined here as a soul as well) And how to relate that those two souls (one of the first man) needing to be alligned with my eve (soul) or mental capacity or how "that pertains to" the entirely different man Jesus Christ (to whom WE as Eve are joined to = ONE husband) not two.
My faith is built up seeing Christ not really myself and I dont see how Genesis can be of "practical" assistance in my own life save that which Paul already shared concerning it. I am blessed in seeing more of the Lord of which the volume of the book speaks. I was trying to understand how some of the things described previously pertained to Him according to the scriptures.
Clay
So Fire, I am saying people have spirits and souls. They have life and minds. Period. Adam and Eve represent these realites. They both were made corruptable and mortal as the story of Adam and Eve show. They both die and get reborn and are called Jesus Christ. This is saying to me I am conceived corruptable and mortal and I will become dead to this and rise again to incorruption and immortality.
Fireinfolding
I have no disagreement with us having our own soul and spirit or that we have mortality, what I was trying to understand is expressed in my other post, not mortal application but the spiritual one. Thats why I couldnt see how it pertained
Okay Kim . . . I think I can finally see what it is you're having an issue with. I bowed out of this to see where the others were taking it to see if I could get a handle on what it was you were saying. But it wasn't until this post here that it finally dawned on me. So, let me try this and see if it helps.
We've talked about dimensions and for me, there's primarily three. My reason for trying to keep it at three is . . .if I don't it can really get complicated. 2, because it's what I feel has been shown to me. Not offended if others see more or less, but for me, I see three. And C, ( :laughing7:) the tabernacle is my plumbline.
Okay, so again, the first dimension is the natural . . outer court . .natural light. Adam and Eve as two people . .the story . . 1st dimension. No biggie.
The second dimension . . .the inner court . . cultivated (I call it) light. It requires the activity of the priests to keep fires burning, bread fresh, wine full, insense smelling . .all that is ministry of the CHURCH . .so when you look at things "corporately" you are looking at the second dimension. Which is what it appears that you are doing with the Adam and Eve thing . and its a great fit.
But what cp and I have shared is the next dimension, the "inner" perspective where it's not dealing with "men" as in the corporate picture, but "man" as in the internal picture. Everyone is right in this, there is a corporate picture and there is a spiritual or maybe it's clearer to use "inner" picture because both the corporate and inner are spiritual.
Am I getting close?
Hey Tony, Sorry if my last post seemed cold . .I didn't read all the way through before posting that. I had a thought and put it out there before reading any further.
Happy Birthday bro . . .seems God has already given you his gift, eh?
"For you have to learn an invaluable lesson and the only way I could teach that lesson to you was through the death of your beloved pup. I am God. I am the Father Who is Lord of heaven and earth."
Wow. That's how God showed me UR...He brought me to a place of literally wanting to die...being broken before Him, losing something I held dear...but that I really needed to lose, in more ways than one...including His revelation to me.
He truly is Lord of heaven and earth, and I have to constantly humble myself before Him...otherwise I have a sinful, rebellious attitude...the beast within me wanting to sit on the throne :thumbdown:.
God's blessing, Tony.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
--Rom 8
Here Paul sets up a contrast between our sinful nature and the Spirit of God.
8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
--which 'sinful nature' we know is the flesh.
We however are controlled by the Spirit, not by the flesh, because of Christ.
If we do not have the Spirit of Christ, we are not his.
But--if we have the Spirit of Christ in us, then we have an alive spirit, a spirit which we received from him--the Spirit of sonship. That's his Spirit, given to us. And that spirit (ours now) testifies with the Spirit of Christ that we are now sons. Two witnesses.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1
Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Quote from: rosered on January 13, 2009, 09:38:17 PM
and the mannerisms and personalites are what make us different
do you think that is what is called the soul part ? just wondering
the soul seems to describe the seat of emotions and appetite
because soul and spirit seem to be very similar in some ways
when defining them
I think that is possibly true, I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.
The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.
For instance, I have an aggressive personality, people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad, but it is not, only how it is used.
Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.
hope that made sense.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 14, 2009, 06:19:04 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 13, 2009, 09:38:17 PM
and the mannerisms and personalites are what make us different
do you think that is what is called the soul part ? just wondering
the soul seems to describe the seat of emotions and appetite
because soul and spirit seem to be very similar in some ways
when defining them
I think that is possibly true, I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.
The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.
For instance, I have an aggressive personality, people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad, but it is not, only how it is used.
Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.
hope that made sense.
That is so true.
He helps us to become more of what we are, because what we are is what he made us to be. And, so we should allow ourselves that privilege, and so should our friends. I think we would see a lot more talent in the world if not for oppression and repression--and people who are a lot happier.
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2009, 06:22:16 AM
I can say at this point that I'm only partial preterist...seeing more and more of what was actually fulfilled in 70 A.D. But I really do like your post, PM...very helpful...
what's your take on the abomination of desolation? Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not :mnah:...
Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...
I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS!
If one talks naturally or spiritually it cannot be off topic, but my opinion may not count for much as Albert Einstein said, " Not everything that counts can be counted; not everything that can be counted counts."
Rebuilding of the temple has already been achieved by Christ, and it will be raised up in it's entirety on/through the third day. But the abomination and desolation that Daniel spoke of, and Christ confirmed – was accomplished in their generation.
However, man will again attempt to build his tower of Babel. And the false prophet will continue to endorse "the" so called anti-Christ, as the real thing according to Scripture. Be not deceived, there was never a need for blood sacrificing. Although, Jesus did lay his life down, as He exposed their corruption – the sacrifice – to end all Sacrifices.
No time at present for a full discourse or to expound on this, but wanted you to know that your post was not overlooked, nor out of sight.
We can quote the Bible, listing every verse, but as I ask my daughters, "What is the word saying?" Until one understands from the true heart, man will interpret things to fit their own agenda – controlling and leading many astray, as they, themselves have been led.
There have been some excellent posts on the Natural and Spiritual thread, those whose inner man is renewed – day by day – because the Spirit of the Lord is truly abiding within them. Yet, many are frozen in this dimension called "time" and follow the thoughts of the wise men of Babylon, having only an outward covering which is indeed, very problematic.
I am not a rapture futurist, nor a preterist ...
IST isn't me!I live for today!
peacemaker
PM, you wrote...
I am not a rapture futurist, nor a preterist ...IST isn't me!
I live for today!
I like that.
I've been discussing Scriptural things for over 20 years now and in my denseness I see a very clear pattern. We start discussing one thing and pretty soon what we are discussing is so garbeled that it becomes meaningless or at the very least, way off track.
I like to start from a focal point and what you said is it.
I am a man. People are part of me whether I believe it or not. Something created me or I came out of Something 'more' than me. Simple? Yes and no.
If an intelligence has something to do with who and what I am then I think this intelligence would explain who and what I am, maybe not. If the Bible is the explanation then it is definitely written in code. It just doesn't take all those books, all that time, using all those people to explain who and what I am. It doesn't.
I personally think we are being told the same thing over and over again in the Bible just in different ways.
Fire said it all.......But I just never got "my inner Eve" (soul or mind?) and "inner Adam" (soul or spirit??) depending on who is interpreting what when.
I am a person. I have something that makes me alive and I call it spirit. I have something that thinks and feels and I call it soul. It's simple. I have a Bible that can be interpreted and is interpreted as many ways as there are people.
Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 03:54:43 PM
Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?
cp
Just like making an ordinary meal really . .. it takes longer to make it than it does to eat it. The discussions can be the waiting for the water to get to the right temperature before you can add the pasta. Also . . . the bs discussions are also creating relationships . .so it can't all be bad. :happy3:
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 03:54:43 PM
Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?
cp
Just like making an ordinary meal really . .. it takes longer to make it than it does to eat it. The discussions can be the waiting for the water to get to the right temperature before you can add the pasta. Also . . . the bs discussions are also creating relationships . .so it can't all be bad. :happy3:
It creates relationship for me with Him. That's all I really count on these days. He always rewards me greatly for talking with other believers, even though the discussions themselves might not be all that 'productive' from the point of view of my eyes. That church that doesn't want to teach the indwelling Spirit, for instance...
You all are family, no doubt about that. I am thankful. Now back to the natural vs spiritual, huh?
I thank God we humans are so versatile and resiliant and adaptable. We really are. We ask God for health and we get sickness, we ask Him for money and we get more broke BUT we do adapt and we keep coming back for more no matter what. I think that is why I look to the spiritual more than the physical in the words of Scripture, just easier to make more sense out of and actually LESS acrobatics involved than in trying to adapt Scripture to the natural world.
Heard a message here at work, I work in a place where mainline church thoughts are all there is and like you Nathan, if I were exposed, I would be gone. Anyway heard a message by Stuart Briscoe or Driscoe. Your usual message yet I tried hearing with spiritual ears and was blessed abundantly. He tried his hardest to keep Jesus' word meanings in the physical (John 17) but it made so much sense to me as I filtered the whole thing through my spiritual strainer.
cp
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 14, 2009, 06:19:04 AM
Quote from: rosered on January 13, 2009, 09:38:17 PM
and the mannerisms and personalites are what make us different
do you think that is what is called the soul part ? just wondering
the soul seems to describe the seat of emotions and appetite
because soul and spirit seem to be very similar in some ways
when defining them
I think that is possibly true, I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.
The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.
For instance, I have an aggressive personality, people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad, but it is not, only how it is used.
Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.
hope that made sense.
Hi Paul ,
you are maybe more assertive 1. confidently aggressive or self-assured; positive: aggressive than aggresive bro lol ?
As you know we are being conformed in the Image of Christ , that being said , I know the Lord Jesus was confident and assertive to the Pharrisess spirits
For the the inward man i would say this is the strong man of the house :thumbsup:
conformed 1) having the same form as another, similar, conformed to
Image
1) an image, figure, likeness
a) an image of the things (the heavenly things)
1) used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God
2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body,
but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possessesb) the image of one
1) one in whom the likeness of any one is seen
2) applied to man on account of his power of command
3)
to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellenceFor whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be]
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
we are undergoing process of change within this life for Gods purpose
love in Christ .. rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Rose2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses
There you go--his mind is to become ours.
Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:That mind is part of our inheritance.
Even though we may all look different, with different attributes and gifts, we all share one Spirit--
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. --1 Cor 12
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body:
so also is Christ.so also is Christ--the anointed One, the Christ,
Christos.
I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 14, 2009, 07:09:56 PM
I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?
Tony
Yes, it's all literal, it all really happened, both the Old and New Testament, just as it is reported.
Quote from: Tony N on January 14, 2009, 07:09:56 PM
I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?
Tony
Hi Tony great question bro !!! and this is why :HeartThrob:
I believe both It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was]
not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1Cr 15:47
The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. that says it all to me
we are to know no man after the flesh not even Christ anylonger :thumbsup:Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 2Cr 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. love rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 06:31:17 PM
You all are family, no doubt about that. I am thankful. Now back to the natural vs spiritual, huh?
I thank God we humans are so versatile and resiliant and adaptable. We really are. We ask God for health and we get sickness, we ask Him for money and we get more broke BUT we do adapt and we keep coming back for more no matter what. I think that is why I look to the spiritual more than the physical in the words of Scripture, just easier to make more sense out of and actually LESS acrobatics involved than in trying to adapt Scripture to the natural world.
Heard a message here at work, I work in a place where mainline church thoughts are all there is and like you Nathan, if I were exposed, I would be gone. Anyway heard a message by Stuart Briscoe or Driscoe. Your usual message yet I tried hearing with spiritual ears and was blessed abundantly. He tried his hardest to keep Jesus' word meanings in the physical (John 17) but it made so much sense to me as I filtered the whole thing through my spiritual strainer.
Oh, and for Tony . . . I'm a Two-fer as well.
cp
I've been having off-line conversations dealing with this very thing bro . .. there was a time when I was just in awe at how people could read the exact same verses I've read all my life, and they see these things that . . . feel like electric jolts in me . . .BAM! And I remember thinking . ..man . . . how come I never saw that before now??? And even now, that question pops up in my church quite a bit. But it's all about the veils . . .even now people are setting in the pews, going through the motions of having church. They pay their tithe, sing the songs, hear the sermon, shake pastor's hand and go home . . .and do it over and over and over again and the veil never moves.
But then there are those who just seem to light you up everytime they post!!
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 07:09:10 PM
Quote from: Rose2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses
There you go--his mind is to become ours.
Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
That mind is part of our inheritance.
Even though we may all look different, with different attributes and gifts, we all share one Spirit--
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
--1 Cor 12
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
so also is Christ--the anointed One, the Christ, Christos.
Yes Molly it is a whole new thing sis !
mind , heart , spirit
even our soul/ life is exchnged for
His Christ' s own sake :HeartThrob:
For whosoever will
save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will
lose his life for my sake shall find it. Mat 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
we barter our souls to Jesus Christ , that is what Jesus wants
It is Gods will
And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
the SEED is the WORD OF GOD incorruptible till we all grow up in Christ / the annointing Of the Father ,this working is the Holy Spirit within us
love rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: NathanBut it's all about the veils . . .even now people are setting in the pews, going through the motions of having church. They pay their tithe, sing the songs, hear the sermon, shake pastor's hand and go home . . .and do it over and over and over again and the veil never moves.
That is the fault of the churches, IMO. They focus the sheep on the natural--your sin, your death, your filthy rags, the death of Jesus, death death death.
Why would I want to look at Jesus hanging on the cross every week? That is an extraordinarily painful thing for me. It has caused me pain to look on it since I was a child.
But, what do the angels say?
Don't look back..Why don't the churches teach us to look on the resurrected Christ, the new Covenant, the new creation which is us, and the great riches we have in Christ Jesus?
They want the walking dead, not the living...easier to control...they don't want the new...they want the old...
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. --Mat23
QuoteWhy would I want to look at Jesus hanging on the cross every week? That is an extraordinarily painful thing for me. It has caused me pain to look on it since I was a child.
because they hide behind the one tree eating mice.
not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really
did.Rom 5:10 For if, when we
were enemies, we
were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. :bgdance:
2Cr 5:19
To wit, that God
was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him....................... :happy3: :cloud9:
chuckt
Quote from: Tony N on January 14, 2009, 07:09:56 PM
I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?
Tony
Tony,
YES.
cp
Quote from: Chuckbecause they hide behind the one tree eating mice.
not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really did.
Sometimes I think it's because they are bragging on their greatest accomplishment--'killing God.'
And they are just what Jesus called them--children of satan.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 14, 2009, 07:50:20 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 14, 2009, 07:09:56 PM
I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?
Tony
Yes, I believe He was literally crucified. I see Him fulfilling in his flesh what was figuratively laid out in many paterns
For instance you can see the plan of salvation in the picture of Abel and Seth too. If you start backwards and begin at Gen 5 even what Christ did in the gospels can be seen even way back when
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in **the day** ~WHEN~ they were created.
and speaks of Psalms 102:18
Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation **to come** and the people which **shall be created** shall praise the LORD.
God calling things that are NOT as though they were in a figure
Ephes 2:10 For **we** are his workmanship, **created in** Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ~before ordained~ that we should walk in them.
He's speaking of ... by his Spirit (created) NOT after the of FLESH (formed)
Psalm 104:30 Thou ~sendest forth~ thy Spirit, ~they~ are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
John 7:39 But this spake He of THE SPIRIT , which they that believe on him should receive: for THE HOLY GHOST was NOT GIVEN; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Which follows the SAME PATERN set in Genesis in regards to Abel (and the shedding of his blood) the "Seth" which root word means "appoint" or to "put" or "setteth in place" (in ones stead). Cain is not counted Abel (the righteous) is slain and Seth is granted to WOMAN = WOMAN ((behold)) THY SON (on the cross)= a disciple shown here
Ecc 4:15 I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with ***the second child** that shall stand up **in his stead**.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Seth is shown (in Gen 4:6) showing that within the patern that its THERE (according to the patern) when men BEGAN to call upon the NAME of THE LORD. And there is no other NAME had been given save the Name of Jesus Christ by whom they are saved. And it reflects the same thing shown there..."Whosever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
So as I see Adam was a patern for Christ so also (to me) is found a patern in the blood of Abel. And before the Spirit is breathed onto the disciples ~the shedding of blood~ is also depicted (in Abel) BEFORE God shows what He was doing here...
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day ~when~ they were created. Gen 5:2 is a recap from the 6th day but God shows FIRST how its laid out, but follows a patern of "formed", "made", and "created" (the first thing shown last) and on the Seventh day what is "formed" is missing from the picture but a MIST goes UP :bigGrin:
Paul caught this. We are "created" in Christ the one New Man they both (male and female) were named Adam in THE DAY they WERE created.
Gal 3:8 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male and female: for ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus.
You can see a little bit of Jesus here too following the same patern before Gen 5
Heb 10:1 For THE LAW """ HAVING """ A SHADOW OF the good things TO COME, and NOT the VERY IMAGE OF THINGS...
AND Because the scriptures testify of ME
Romans 4:17 calleth **those things** which **BE NOT** AS though they WERE
So when we see this we can SEE Him even here
Gen 4:10 What hast THOU DONE ? The VOICE OF your brothers blood ~CRIETH~ **UNTO ME** from the ground.
We hear this....
Mat 27:46 JESUS CRIED with A ~LOUD VOICE~, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, ~My GOD~ MY GOD~ Why hast thou forsaken ME?
Jesus fulfills the words of Abel (who cried out TO God but makes no recorded sound) as the are recorded in Christ. Not only so but Jesus also **answers Gods** question put forth to Cain, stepping into His role as The Mediator of the NC (between God and man) crying better words then that of Abel recorded in Christ
God says **to** CAIN
Gen 4:10 WHAT hast THOU DONE?
Luke 23:24 Then said Jesus, Father, FORGIVE THEM; for THEY (the Natural man) KNOW NOT what THEY DO.
Heres the BETTER things He speaks then that of Abel (as his words were recorded in Christ)
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Abels words are recorded in Christ, they are not recorded in Abel)
Col 1:14 IN WHOM WE have redemption through HIS BLOOD , even FORGIVENESS of sins,
He fulfilled the first. Declaring THE END (of the Law) from The Beginning (Himself) As HE is the Beginning and the End. I see the Cross is as central to these
The faith of Christ
Heb 11:4 By Faith Abel offered a MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE than Cain, by which he obtained witness that He is righteous, God testifying of **HIS GIFTS**: and by it he being dead **yet speaketh**
Mat 26:28 For for this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is ~SHED~ for many for the remission of sins.
Redeemed by
1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Two trees, two covenants, two seeds (Cain= natural first) Abel = (spiritual man second) SETH is appointed to stand in Abels Stead, this is the SECOND CHILD spoken of Ecclesiastes= and why Jesus says (on the Cross) Woman BEHOLD ~THY SON~.
Unto us a CHILD is born Unto us a SON is GIVEN= Woman behold THY SON = God has granted me another seed in the place of Abel (Vanity) for Cain slew Him. Abels name MEANS VANITY and as a mans thoughts are vanity so also is Childhood and youth VANITY. The creature was subject to Vanity (not willingly) which is ironic thats what Abels name means, through Christ God made foolish the wisdom of this world for the world by its wisdom didnt know Him. We are DELIVERED OF the CHILD = Vanity (my thoughts are not your thoughts) and given a NEW SPIRIT that we might know the thoughts of God through the Spirit (name of Jesus Christ) = Salvation to pass from death to life and know forgiveness of sins (which come by the shedding of blood) shown in Genesis and follows the same patern.
Theres tons more like in Adam and the days specifically and in the "formed", "made" and "created" parts and how God shows first what He does last and how He shows these beautiful pictures of His Son and how the cross is central to it in many ways.
Just because somethings are similitudes doesnt mean they dont have a reality but its often outside that similitude that it finds it and in these cases its in Jesus Christ.
Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
God just concealed the thing in many pictures concerning His Son but that doesnt mean Jesus wasnt the manifestation of all that has been previous hidden in Him. Theres so much in there its impossible to write it all but figures dont mean they dont have a substance, and in this case its Jesus Christ the Son of God.
That's a short way of saying it :laughing7:
I never made the connection there with Jesus passing his mother on to John . . .but now that you put it this way . . .it gives reason to step back and take a closer look at John. If John represents Seth and Christ was Abel, then as you so elequently put it, Mary, the woman in Jesus life, was passed on to John . .so that John was now in Jesus "stead". And it was John whom Jesus loved . . .and it was John whom Jesus spared. And it was John to whom the Father revealed . .who Jesus was.
Wow.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 14, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
:grin: No no no, Nat I dont think John represents literal Seth (in the flesh) no more then I believe the Gospel Paul was made a minister the only minister, the ONE represents the many in Him in both cases. I just see everything locking together on the cross in Genesis in a patern. Jesus called his mother Woman in Genesis when Able was slain God granted her another. Cain is the firstborn of the flesh (it profitteth nothing) and is not counted as those counted for seed are not the children of the flesh but of the promise, not many SEEDS but SEED and John is counted as THY SON same as in Genesis. Abel (the righteous slain) who is the SECOND born (Spiritual) has another stand in His stead and that speaks to leaving us seed and the ambassodors for Christ through who God makes his appeal through. He that receives YOU receives ME and the ONE who sent me type thing.
No I dont think John is a reincarnated Seth :grin:
But isn't that the pattern? Abel represents Christ . .Cain kills Abel, man kills Christ. Seth is given to Eve as the replacement . . .John is given to Mary as a replacement . . .the emphasis for me isn't in John, but in what was given to John.
Then ya got the spirit versus soul . . .I think . .
"I" must decrease that "He" may increase. . . .you have to die to self in order to live in Christ. I am a new creature . .I am a new Man . . .So I guess what happened with Cain and Abel is just the opposite. Cain was "supposed" to decrease so that he'd gain the increase of blessing from God. But instead he rebelled and the disorder that began in Adam, manifested in Cain and as a result . . .death again came into the picture.
Adam died the day he disobeyed, Abel died the day Cain disobeyed. Spirit was separated from flesh due to soul exercising authority that was given to the Spirit.
Anyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Chuckbecause they hide behind the one tree eating mice.
not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really did.
Sometimes I think it's because they are bragging on their greatest accomplishment--'killing God.'
And they are just what Jesus called them--children of satan.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I've got no great respect for the Catholic dynasty, but did you see where the Pope(s) have been tweaking some sort of "Christmas Prayer" or some such thing, apparently trying to appease the Jews? They are still unhappy and threatening a boycott (? , of what, I'm not sure)...but it's because the "prayer" still indicates the Jews "need to convert" :mshock:...and they're not real happy about that. Just an interesting tid-bit I heard yesterday.
QuoteAnyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Eve Mother of ALL Living.
Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...
Yeah, but why just Eve . .why was Adam not included?
Quote from: NathanBut isn't that the pattern? Abel represents Christ . .Cain kills Abel, man kills Christ. Seth is given to Eve as the replacement . . .John is given to Mary as a replacement . . .the emphasis for me isn't in John, but in what was given to John.
Adam represents Christ--
Adam...who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [Rev 13:8]
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [Rev 22]
...I am the root and the offspring of David. .. [Rev 22]
...Adam, the son of God. [Lk 3]
Abel represents us before Christ--vanity, meaning in danger of speedy disappearance, temporary--
Seth represents us after Christ--an appointed son, --his name means 'appointed'--and Eve says at his birth--
For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. [Gen 4]
All sons are appointed by God--
Woman, behold thy son--God is appointing John a son, making him brother of Jesus
the firstborn of many of brothers.
Quote from: NathanYeah, but why just Eve . .why was Adam not included?
Because he had to remove us from Him [at the beginning] so that he could return us to Himself later as a new creation.
It's how God creates those in his own image and likeness...
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
QuoteAnyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Eve Mother of ALL Living.
Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...
The carnal is dead, not living...
She is the mother of all living...
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
QuoteAnyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Eve Mother of ALL Living.
Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...
The carnal is dead, not living...
She is the mother of all living...
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
yes Molly ,But First One is Born carnal or we have the serpent seed Doctrine coming back.
First the Natural and Then the Spiritual :icon_flower:
Help me out guys . . .I'm not denouncing your analogy, but if Christ is Adam . .. how does the fall come into play there?
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
QuoteAnyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Eve Mother of ALL Living.
Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...
The carnal is dead, not living...
She is the mother of all living...
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
yes Molly ,But First One is Born carnal or we have the serpent seed Doctrine coming back.
First the Natural and Then the Spiritual :icon_flower:
Just as God is the God of the living...
have you not read what God said to you,
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:13:19 PM
Help me out guys . . .I'm not denouncing your analogy, but if Christ is Adam . .. how does the fall come into play there?
To make a long story short lol--
If Eve hadn't done what she did, Adam would never have done it--because he was not deceived by satan. So he 'fell' for her. And, Jesus comes and reverses the whole thing, retracing Adam's steps at every juncture, unwinding it as it were, to restore us to the garden.
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 10:14:33 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 14, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
QuoteAnyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent? Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?
Eve Mother of ALL Living.
Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...
The carnal is dead, not living...
She is the mother of all living...
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
yes Molly ,But First One is Born carnal or we have the serpent seed Doctrine coming back.
First the Natural and Then the Spiritual :icon_flower:
Just as God is the God of the living...
have you not read what God said to you,
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Amen Molly IM not disagreeing...but there is More than ONE level ..., thats all Im was trying to say.
Carnally, all Souls have their Heritage in ADAM and EVE , But also ,we do so In the Spirit, First the Natural then the Spiritual :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:13:19 PM
Help me out guys . . .I'm not denouncing your analogy, but if Christ is Adam . .. how does the fall come into play there?
To make a long story short lol--
If Eve hadn't done what she did, Adam would never have done it--because he was not deceived by satan. So he 'fell' for her. And, Jesus comes and reverses the whole thing, retracing Adam's steps at every juncture, unwinding it as it were, to restore us to the garden.
I don't disagree with you there, but Scripture shows God is holding Adam accountable, not Eve. So how does Adam being a picture of Christ fit with that? It was not Christ's fault Adam submitted. Christ didn't die because Adam's fall was his responsibility.
I don't know . . . it's not fitting for me is all.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:13:19 PM
Help me out guys . . .I'm not denouncing your analogy, but if Christ is Adam . .. how does the fall come into play there?
To make a long story short lol--
If Eve hadn't done what she did, Adam would never have done it--because he was not deceived by satan. So he 'fell' for her. And, Jesus comes and reverses the whole thing, retracing Adam's steps at every juncture, unwinding it as it were, to restore us to the garden.
I don't disagree with you there, but Scripture shows God is holding Adam accountable, not Eve. So how does Adam being a picture of Christ fit with that? It was not Christ's fault Adam submitted. Christ didn't die because Adam's fall was his responsibility.
I don't know . . . it's not fitting for me is all.
Not sure what you mean by 'accountable.' You mean all died in Adam? By Adam came death?
Adam must have been someone very special. I could sin all day and all night and my actions would not condemn the whole world to death...
But--
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Who's that?
1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Adam] came also the resurrection of the dead.
I don't know what to say . . .sigh . .Kim . . thank you. Good grief, I've used that same exact picture about Adam being put to sleep and birthing Eve and Christ being put to sleep and birthing the church . . .DUH!!!
Man . . . that's just strange.
Quote from: Firebut first Adam is only a FIGURE through which God showed Jesus Christ.
Adam....who is the figure of him that was to come. Rom 5:14
"the figure"G5179
τύπος
tupostoo'-pos
From G5180;
a die (as struck), that is, (by implication)
a stamp or scar; by analogy a shape, that is, a statue, (figuratively) style or resemblance; specifically a sampler ("type"), that is, a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): - en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.
Adam...chip off the old Block...
..Adam, the son of God. [Lk 3]
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:49:09 PM
I don't know what to say . . .sigh . .Kim . . thank you. Good grief, I've used that same exact picture about Adam being put to sleep and birthing Eve and Christ being put to sleep and birthing the church . . .DUH!!!
Man . . . that's just strange.
Kind of makes you dizzy, doesn't it? :Sparkletooth:
Nathan, you wrote
I don't disagree with you there, but Scripture shows God is holding Adam accountable, not Eve. So how does Adam being a picture of Christ fit with that? It was not Christ's fault Adam submitted. Christ didn't die because Adam's fall was his responsibility.
I take something for granted but I don't think it is common opinion. To me Adam and Eve and the serpent are each person. So all this talk about Adam doing this and Eve doing that was confusing to me until I realized that some here are seeing Adam, Eve and the serpent as 3 beings.
Let me see it this fits. God is holding Adam accountable, not Eve. Hmmmmmm. Scripture does say the woman was in the transgression, not the man. The woman will have greater pain in childbirth. So I see Eve is held very accountable. But again, I see only one person being talked about here. I am accountable for what I think and do for the most part, right? Yet even when I say 'I' I really cannot take credit for making myself alive or making me 'spirit', to me, another way of saying alive.
Another example: Eve is the mother of all living. This is still talking about each person yet now Scripture is stressing Eve or, IMO, the soulish essence of a person. How is the soulish part of a person 'the mother of all living'? Hmmmmmmm. Well, people make people and it is a very sensual thing mostly. In Heaven there is neither marriage or ........Maybe this means that it is the sensual nature that is the cause of new birth, both physically and must be spiritually too. I would say God is a sensual Being.
Fire, Molly, anybody, does this help at all to see where I am coming from? Does this make sense?
That's why when it says 'As in Adam all die.......' I see Adam as incorporating Adam, Eve and the serpent. It is because people were created in the beginning like they were that they die. In this first Adam, the roles of Adam, Eve and the serpent were messed up, thus sin.
In Christ, the second Adam, I see Adam and Eve and the serpent yet I see roles being played out perfectly thus the spirtual state as in authority is reborn.
cp
Adam, Eve and the serpent were all there before Eve was taken out of Adam. The taking of Eve out of Adam seems to me to be God's way of showing us how people will act when led initially by his or her soulish or sensual nature. God is showing us how we act when not initially led by Him, Spirit.
Consider the confusion that happened because of what 'Eve' did? Again this was a person, every person, yet people guided by there own lusts primarily. 'She' saw the tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes and able to make one wise and she ate and gave and on and on and on.
Now consider how perfect things will be because of how Jesus Christ handles the Adam, Eve and serpent!
cp
OK, now I'm going overboard even for me but Nathan has encouragaed me to let it all hang out so here goes again......
Fire you quoted......
That which is FORMED of FIRST ADAM counts for nothing as ITS FLESH.
The TWO which testfy are in that which is "MADE" through CHRIST (LAST ADAM) The WORD made FLESH. ITS IN and THROUGH HIM and the part of HIS SIDE wherein the BLOOD and WATER are found in Jesus Christ. These TWO bear witness TO HIM (as John shows). Its always "two or three witnesses" and the third of which is that of the SPIRIT. The THREE AGREE IN ONE. The Spirit which bears witness is within us who always testifies of Christ.
1John 5:8 And there are three that beareth witness in EARTH, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three AGREE """ IN ONE """.
What I am seeing is this. Blood seems to me to be associated with life or soul. Water,I have noticed in Scripture, seems to be associated with carnality unless it is referred to as Living Water. OK, now we have Christ on the cross. Adam, Eve and the serpent represented in One Man. (As Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole so must..........)
Notice what pours out of Christ as He dies. Blood and water. As a person dies to self (the real serpent) the serpent and soul are dealt death blows. Spirit does not die for it is God, not a product of God's work.
To go further, Adam, Eve and the serpent were on the cross in the form of one Man.
Oh, OH got to go. Librarian is throwing me out!
cp
:cloud9: Nathan, Satan hates Eve/flesh/soul/woman because it takes a "woman" to birth the WORD. Sorry if I'm repeating anyone, just had time to skim posts a little.....Blessings...
The THREE AGREE IN ONE. The Spirit which bears witness is within us who always testifies of Christ.
1John 5:8 And there are three that beareth witness in EARTH, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three AGREE """ IN ONE """.
The 3 agree in one. Adam, Eve and serpent. All in their rightful place.
First Adam is associated with carnality because Adam, Eve and serpent were out of order so to speak. Last Adam is the Savior, restoring order to Adam, Eve and serpent.
Serpent IMO will cease to exist when order is restored in Christ.
My 2 cents.
cp
Fire: Interesting CP I'd love to see an orderly serpent
Yo Fire, I am using Adam, Eve and Serpent as indicating one person and you were hungry so you probably missed what I wrote in anticipation of what you wrote...I tried to indicate that when man is fully made in God's image then the serpent will be gone. As a matter of fact I think the serpent only is present when a person is behaving in a soulish way.
cp
1Co 15:45-49 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials." (49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Two Adams.
Two different origins.
Two different makeups.
Two different destinies for mankind.
30 I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.]
31 But [Satan is coming and] I do as the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know (be convinced) that I love the Father and that I do only what the Father has instructed Me to do. [I act in full agreement with His orders.] Rise, let us go away from here.
--John 14
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
--John 14
Quote from: Tony N on January 15, 2009, 05:22:10 AM
1Co 15:45-49 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials." (49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Two Adams.
Two different origins.
Two different makeups.
Two different destinies for mankind.
Maybe not that different: :bigGrin:
"This will continue until we are ... mature, just as Christ is, and we will be completely like him"-- (Ephesians 4:13)
Quote from: FireThat which is FORMED of FIRST ADAM counts for nothing as ITS FLESH.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD3068 God430 commanded6680,
5921 the man,120 saying,559 Of every4480, 3605 tree6086 of the garden1588 thou mayest freely eat:398, 398
"the man"'al AdamH5921/H5920
'alabove, properly the top, specifically the Highest (that is, God);also, (adverbially) aloft, to Jehovah--above, high, most High
Kim, I had posted the below post at #1000, kidding around, but then bumped it down under yours so you can have the honors.
I had posted; "If somebody will post one more reply, we'll have 1,000 in this thread... Oops. Carry on brothers and sisters. Keep it coming, Molly! God's blessing, James."
Quote from: Cardinal on January 15, 2009, 12:39:33 AM
:cloud9: Nathan, Satan hates Eve/flesh/soul/woman because it takes a "woman" to birth the WORD. Sorry if I'm repeating anyone, just had time to skim posts a little.....Blessings...
Don't want to miss this little gem..
Is this why she [Eve/flesh/soul/woman] will be saved in childbearing? --the Word become flesh?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:08:09 AM
What do you mean about me having some honors? :grin:
I dont want no honors :grin:
What did ya do?
Just being silly Kimmie, sorry, shouldn't have interrupted. I posted my silly post at #1000, joking, but then decided to move mine down under yours so you could have "the honors"...I don't think anything really happens, no button or ribbon (oh, OK, I'll give you this :first:) but hey, it's the first time it's ever happened here as far as I know, so whether you admit it or not, it does make you at least a
little special. :thumbsup: OK I'll get out of here and let you guys continue talking about important things.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:21:42 AM
Ofcourse its Christ in you, first Adam formed from the dust and second Adam formed is formed in us the two become one flesh
But as the woman literally gives birth in the physical (after much tribulation), the soul 'gives birth' to the Christ?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:56:24 AM
Heres a few scriptures on the Church (men in the pic but shown as a woman) :grin:
Christ used ~this example~ speaking of his disciples (men there) of A WOMAN giving BIRTH to be delivered of the CHILD, that A MAN might be brought into the world when explaining to his disciples (men) what it would be like when He came TO THEM.
Childbearing manstyle :grin:
Jerm 30:6 Ask ye NOW, and see whether ~A MAN~ doth travail WITH CHILD? wherefore do I see EVERY MAN with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jerm 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath CREATED a new thing in the earth, A WOMAN shall compass A MAN.
Isaiah 26:17 Like as a WOMAN with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have WE been in thy sight, O LORD.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I TRAVAIL in birth again until Christ be FORMED IN YOU,
So we be "no more children" but Sons
To wipe away the Tears, No more pain, No more sorrow , for HER ""HOUR" has\IS come FOR
""JOY"=Christ in us)
Jhn 16:21 A
woman when she is in travail hath
sorrow, because her
hour is come: but as soon as she is
delivered of the child, she
remembereth no more the anguish, for
joy that a
man is born into the world. Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and
now is, when the
true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that
worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The
hour is coming, and
now is, when the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the
hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice, FOR SORROW will BE TURNED TO""""""""""" JOY""""""""""""""""( Christ in US)
Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall
weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be
sorrowful, but your
sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Jhn 16:21 A
woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her
hour is come: but as
soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no
more the anguish, for
"""joy""" that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 16:22 And ye now
therefore have sorrow: but
I will see you again, and your
heart shall rejoice,
and your ****joy *****no man taketh from you. Job 38:7 When the
morning stars sang together, and all the
sons of God shouted for joy?
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have
joy and gladness; and many shall
rejoice at his birth. (HIS birth in us)
Did NOT JOHN ALSO ""LEAP FOR ""jOY""" :icon_flower:
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the
voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them,
Fear not: for, behold, I bring you
good tidings of*** great joy****, which
shall be to all people. Luk 6:23
Rejoice ye in that day, and
leap for joy: for, behold,
your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. Luk 24:52 And they
worshipped him, and
returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Jhn 15:11 These things have
I spoken unto you, that my joy might
remain in you, and [that] your
joy might be full. Paul states we HELPERS OF THIS **JOY**in out Hearts
2Cr 1:24 Not for that we have
dominion over your faith, but are
helpers of your """joy"""": for
by faith ye stand. For wheres Theres JOY ,There will be NO more tears or sorrow as FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED away( Ministration of DEATH)
Rev 21:4 And God shall
wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be
no more death, neither
sorrow, nor
crying, neither
shall there be any more pain: for the
former things are passed away.
wow ! , :icon_flower: there is nothing more to add guys cept this maybe :thumbsup:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 05:10:41 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 03:24:18 AM
Fire: Interesting CP I'd love to see an orderly serpent
Yo Fire, I am using Adam, Eve and Serpent as indicating one person and you were hungry so you probably missed what I wrote in anticipation of what you wrote...I tried to indicate that when man is fully made in God's image then the serpent will be gone. As a matter of fact I think the serpent only is present when a person is behaving in a soulish way.
cp
I was in anticipation for some soup and wrote cha while I was anticipating some grub :grin: My God was my belly momentarily, I betcha it was my inner serpent :grin:
Okay are you saying we have three made one flesh Adam, Eve and the Serpent and Eve will become the mother of the living when Adam our outer man dies and the serpent goes away some day? Is Christ anywhere in this picture or is Christ just the natural result of those three working it out as one?
Yes, I like that.
I am a person. I want to know who I am in relation to God and all men. All the verses quoted are very important but to me they are only helpful as they literally speak to me today in a language I can understand. Otherwise they are just neat verses.
I am a person. By the grace of God I see the Christ (a spiritual essence) in me. I see a soulish, thinking, sensual essence. I still see remnants of the serpent essence in me too. I would be a liar if I said I didn't.
Yes, Fire, I see the serpent gradually decreasing as Jesus Christ increases and it gives me great joy. I believe the serpent will cease to exist at some point when Christ is fully formed in me and in you and in all, when God becomes all in all. I also see my soulish essence slowly aligning itself in a proper way to my spiritual essence and I am living a better life because of it.
You summed it up nicely in your above words.
Now to go look more deeply at all the other good comments here!
This is so helpful to me. The patience of you people is astounding, to put up with the likes of me.
BTW, I do see Jesus Christ and much of Scripture as a literal physical realtity too.
cp
Quote from: Tony N on January 15, 2009, 05:22:10 AM
1Co 15:45-49 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials." (49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Two Adams.
Two different origins.
Two different makeups.
Two different destinies for mankind.
Hi Tony,
Great words. You quoted some Scripture that especially speak to my heart.
I think of Scripture where it says to put off the old man and put on the new. I think this is talking to one entity.
Two Adams, I think so too.
Two different origens, I think not. Are you saying people were made from two different sources?
Two different make-ups and destinies, I agree.
cp
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 05:32:26 AM
30 I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.]
31 But [Satan is coming and] I do as the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know (be convinced) that I love the Father and that I do only what the Father has instructed Me to do. [I act in full agreement with His orders.] Rise, let us go away from here.
--John 14
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
--John 14
Beautiful words Molly and I am hearing. The serpent never could get a firm grip on Jesus the divine, could 'he'?
I see this in 'the chosen' too. The Kingdom of God just keeps no trucking within.
cp
Molly: But as the woman literally gives birth in the physical (after much tribulation), the soul 'gives birth' to the Christ?
That seems so right to me Molly. You did write that didn't you Molly or was it from someone else? No matter, just didn't want to be inaccurate. Thanks.
cp
QuoteI see the serpent gradually decreasing as Jesus Christ increases and it gives me great joy. I believe the serpent will cease to exist at some point when Christ is fully formed in me and in you and in all, when God becomes all in all.
Hi Clay ,
yes the serpents head is crushed :thumbsup:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you
shall
bruise his heel. Rom 16:20 And the
God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the
synagogue of Satan,
which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold,
I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. these connect to me as 3 witnesses speaking the same things
:HeartThrob:
Fire: I dont know which part of "me" (soul or spirit) gives birth to Christ though.
I don't see parts. I don't see 3 seperate entities in me. I see me. I see Jesus. I see the old man. I see the new man. But, Fire, I do understand what you are saying. It's so hard to put into words isn't it? You do very well though IMO.
As to how Christ is birthed in people I think of 2 areas of Scripture that have helped me much.....
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me.... gala1.15
For God so loves the world (people and ....) that He sent........jn3.16
Christ is birthed (revealed) when and where God feels like it and this is accomplished by God sending His Son, which I see as another way of saying He reveals His Son.
This revealing says much to me. It indicates that the Christ is there all the time, just not revealed. While Paul was stealing, killing and destroying, Christ was 'in' him but not revealed. Amazing when I look at my life over the years, absolutely amazing parallel.
cp
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me,
--Gal 1
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Oh my goodness...apokalupto...That's the Apocalypse? The lifting of the veil? :mshock:
:bgdance:
QuoteOh my goodness...apokalupto...That's the Apocalypse?
what does mel gibson and his movies have to do with anything? :dontknow:
:reachout: :myahoo: :pointlaugh: :LH: :myahoo: :gimmefive:
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 04:16:58 PM
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me,
--1 Gal
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Oh my goodness...apokalupto...That's the Apocalypse? The lifting of the veil? :mshock:
:bgdance:
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them
together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
Quote from: Taffy on January 15, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:56:24 AM
Heres a few scriptures on the Church (men in the pic but shown as a woman) :grin:
Christ used ~this example~ speaking of his disciples (men there) of A WOMAN giving BIRTH to be delivered of the CHILD, that A MAN might be brought into the world when explaining to his disciples (men) what it would be like when He came TO THEM.
Childbearing manstyle :grin:
Jerm 30:6 Ask ye NOW, and see whether ~A MAN~ doth travail WITH CHILD? wherefore do I see EVERY MAN with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jerm 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath CREATED a new thing in the earth, A WOMAN shall compass A MAN.
Isaiah 26:17 Like as a WOMAN with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have WE been in thy sight, O LORD.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I TRAVAIL in birth again until Christ be FORMED IN YOU,
So we be "no more children" but Sons
To wipe away the Tears, No more pain, No more sorrow , for HER ""HOUR" has\IS come FOR""JOY"=Christ in us)
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
FOR SORROW will BE TURNED TO""""""""""" JOY""""""""""""""""( Christ in US)
Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for """joy""" that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your ****joy *****no man taketh from you.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. (HIS birth in us)
Did NOT JOHN ALSO ""LEAP FOR ""jOY""" :icon_flower:
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of*** great joy****, which shall be to all people.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
Paul states we HELPERS OF THIS **JOY**in out Hearts
2Cr 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your """joy"""": for by faith ye stand.
For wheres Theres JOY ,There will be NO more tears or sorrow as FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED away( Ministration of DEATH)
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
T, I appreciate so much these scriptures. What I gather from your post, is that JOY is something we can experience now, no more tears is somethign we can experience NOW, (even though we may still feel sadness, and cry etc.). The child is delivered NOW.
JOY is now, Christ in us; a new creation; OLD things are passed away;
yet many here will say that they are both "old Adam" and "new Adam", still not having the satan crushed, stil being carnal. They believe that the SON is being "created" rather than "created"; and we are "putting off (present tense) the OLD", and putting on (present tense) the NEW; rather than "past tense". They see "perfection" as being "sinless".
Can you or anyone here help me to understand how we can be NEW, old passed away, JOY with no more tears,
yet
still have carnal that needs to be burned out of us, still have first Adam as our origin, rather than him being dead.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved,
now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I have a feeling that this verse is not "behavior oriented", as in we still have to be "better" in order to see Him, but rather seeing HIM will be confirmation of who we are.
struggling,
Z
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
You're tempting me now, Taffy... :laughing7:
[a place called] "Armageddon"
G717
Ἀρμαγεδδών
Armageddōn
ar-mag-ed-dohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H2022] and [H4023]; Armageddon (or Har-Megiddon), a symbolical name: - Armageddon.
H2022
הר
har
har
A shortened form of H2042; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively): - hill (country), mount (-ain), X promotion.
H4023
מגדּו מגדּון
megiddôn megiddô
meg-id-done', meg-id-do'
From H1413; rendezvous; Megiddon or Megiddo, a place in Palestine: - Megiddo, Megiddon.
H1413
גּדד
gâdad
gaw-dad'
A primitive root (compare H1461); to crowd; also to gash (as if by pressing into): - assemble (selves by troops), gather (selves together, self in troops).
A mountain of troops...A mountain rendezvous [of troops]...
13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
--Josh 5
[the captain of the LORD's] "host"
H6635
צבאה צבא
tsâbâ' tsebâ'âh
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
--Daniel 2
Strange how the church tells us Armageddon is a valley....when it's really....a mountain...
:mshock:
Quote from: Zeek on January 15, 2009, 04:33:41 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 15, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:56:24 AM
Heres a few scriptures on the Church (men in the pic but shown as a woman) :grin:
Christ used ~this example~ speaking of his disciples (men there) of A WOMAN giving BIRTH to be delivered of the CHILD, that A MAN might be brought into the world when explaining to his disciples (men) what it would be like when He came TO THEM.
Childbearing manstyle :grin:
Jerm 30:6 Ask ye NOW, and see whether ~A MAN~ doth travail WITH CHILD? wherefore do I see EVERY MAN with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jerm 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath CREATED a new thing in the earth, A WOMAN shall compass A MAN.
Isaiah 26:17 Like as a WOMAN with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have WE been in thy sight, O LORD.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I TRAVAIL in birth again until Christ be FORMED IN YOU,
So we be "no more children" but Sons
To wipe away the Tears, No more pain, No more sorrow , for HER ""HOUR" has\IS come FOR""JOY"=Christ in us)
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
FOR SORROW will BE TURNED TO""""""""""" JOY""""""""""""""""( Christ in US)
Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for """joy""" that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your ****joy *****no man taketh from you.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. (HIS birth in us)
Did NOT JOHN ALSO ""LEAP FOR ""jOY""" :icon_flower:
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of*** great joy****, which shall be to all people.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
Paul states we HELPERS OF THIS **JOY**in out Hearts
2Cr 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your """joy"""": for by faith ye stand.
For wheres Theres JOY ,There will be NO more tears or sorrow as FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED away( Ministration of DEATH)
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
T, I appreciate so much these scriptures. What I gather from your post, is that JOY is something we can experience now, no more tears is somethign we can experience NOW, (even though we may still feel sadness, and cry etc.). The child is delivered NOW.
JOY is now, Christ in us; a new creation; OLD things are passed away;
yet many here will say that they are both "old Adam" and "new Adam", still not having the satan crushed, stil being carnal. They believe that the SON is being "created" rather than "created"; and we are "putting off (present tense) the OLD", and putting on (present tense) the NEW; rather than "past tense". They see "perfection" as being "sinless".
Can you or anyone here help me to understand how we can be NEW, old passed away, JOY with no more tears,
yet
still have carnal that needs to be burned out of us, still have first Adam as our origin, rather than him being dead.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I have a feeling that this verse is not "behavior oriented", as in we still have to be "better" in order to see Him, but rather seeing HIM will be confirmation of who we are.
struggling,
Z
Hi Z
I see My perfection IN HIM, not me ,My flesh has died , therefore Its No longer I who Live, but Him IN ME..OUR HOPE of GLORY.
I still suffer in this Body , as well all do , i dont see a perfection of the flesh...but i do see a growth of His love through\in me ,
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and
abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be]
barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 04:16:58 PM
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me,
--Gal 1
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Oh my goodness...apokalupto...That's the Apocalypse? The lifting of the veil? :mshock:
:bgdance:
This is why it has been a favorite passage of mine for many years.
cp
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 04:55:13 PM
Strange how the church tells us Armageddon is a valley....when it's really....a mountain...
:mshock:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CPThis is why it has been a favorite passage of mine for many years.
cp
Are you Mel Gibson? :mshock:
(I love Mel Gibson) :happy3:
ok nevermind...Im leaving now...
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: CPThis is why it has been a favorite passage of mine for many years.
cp
Are you Mel Gibson? :mshock:
(I love Mel Gibson) :happy3:
No, That be Nate :icon_king:
Z, we are growing. I think we will always be growing in some form. It is good to grow from one state of being to another and in the transition we will invariably be in both worlds at the same time until the old totally passes away.
You know I kind of hope the old never passes away in one sense, I hope it passes away in the sense that I learn to deal with it better. Do you understand?
cp
Quote from: Taffy on January 15, 2009, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: CPThis is why it has been a favorite passage of mine for many years.
cp
Are you Mel Gibson? :mshock:
(I love Mel Gibson) :happy3:
No, That be Nate :icon_king:
Nathan Nate? Or another Nate?
I prefer to think it's Mel Gibson...
QuoteWe've talked about this many times before over the years the scriptures show this so beautifully dont they?
Amen sis :icon_flower:
Yeah , quite a few times, and they still blow me away :cloud9:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 05:14:39 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 15, 2009, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: CPThis is why it has been a favorite passage of mine for many years.
cp
Are you Mel Gibson? :mshock:
(I love Mel Gibson) :happy3:
No, That be Nate :icon_king:
Nathan Nate? Or another Nate?
I prefer to think it's Mel Gibson...
Nathan, Crowbar, Nate :icon_flower:
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
Z, we are growing. I think we will always be growing in some form. It is good to grow from one state of being to another and in the transition we will invariably be in both worlds at the same time until the old totally passes away.
You know I kind of hope the old never passes away in one sense, I hope it passes away in the sense that I learn to deal with it better. Do you understand?
cp
transition?
in labor, being pushed through the birth canal rather than already delivered? is that what u mean??
Jeeze Louise you guys! It's taken me about 45 minutes to catch up just from yesterday! what a WONDERFUL thread this is turning into. There is so much stuff flowing out of all of you. Claypot . .man, what an inspiration your posts have been. I truly enjoyed seeing you connect the dots as the picture of Adam, Eve, and the serpent come into true perspective. It is SOOOOO hard to just read through these posts without wanting to reply to each one of them. But in the end, I feel like I just stepped out of a shower. You guys have come to the table not prepared to eat, but to wash each others feet and indeed . . .you have washed mine and words can not explain the gratitude I have for all of you.
I guess we're also going to now have to give Kim a new name being that she's now ms. 1,000. She's become a new "day" with her illuminating "light" like a shining "star" FIXED in the heavens (spirit realm). So . . .what do we call you now kim? Day light? Daystar???
And yes . . .sigh . . . the truth is out . . . I "am" Mel Gibson. Even though no one has seen a picture of me, my good looks ooze through my words . . .some things just can't be hidden I guess. :banana: :banana:
Nathan: And yes . . .sigh . . . the truth is out . . . I "am" Mel Gibson. Even though no one has seen a picture of me, my good looks ooze through my words . . .some things just can't be hidden I guess.
I always knew you were Mel but I wanted to keep your secret. Now it's a good thing I'm heterosexual and married or your 'good looks' just might have been too much for me. You're all Molly's!
cp
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 05:39:43 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 15, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
Z, we are growing. I think we will always be growing in some form. It is good to grow from one state of being to another and in the transition we will invariably be in both worlds at the same time until the old totally passes away.
You know I kind of hope the old never passes away in one sense, I hope it passes away in the sense that I learn to deal with it better. Do you understand?
cp
transition?
in labor, being pushed through the birth canal rather than already delivered? is that what u mean??
Sorta like the narrow way Zeek? :grin:
Hardpressed? Squeezed? Something of that sort?
How do you make oil? By squeezing olives.
Sometimes I feel like the oil is being squeezed out of me by stresses beyond my control...
And what anoints the kings and priests? the oil.
We are to always have the oil, even though the bridegroom is tarrying.....lest we miss him...
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. ---Mat 29
John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
Quote from: Zeek on January 15, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
Z, we are growing. I think we will always be growing in some form. It is good to grow from one state of being to another and in the transition we will invariably be in both worlds at the same time until the old totally passes away.
You know I kind of hope the old never passes away in one sense, I hope it passes away in the sense that I learn to deal with it better. Do you understand?
cp
transition?
in labor, being pushed through the birth canal rather than already delivered? is that what u mean??
You got what I meant, Z.
Also you got me thinking about the old that gets done away with. I think I'm seeing this differently. As I wrote way before, a friend was concerned that we would lose our good old boy identities 'in Heaven'. I don't really know you, Z, but I have to believe you have some awesome personal traits that make you, you. I see some of you here on this forum and from what I see I wouldn't want to see those disappear or even changed for that matter.
I'm thinking it's a perspective thing again. OK, here's and example. I have a flat tire. My usual way of responding to flat tires may be to curse and yell and get all frutrated. Now something happens within me. I still get a flat tire and maybe even still get frustrated but a new manifestation emerges from me. Instead of negative vibes coming from my dealing with the flat, good vibes come through.
Even in this life of the flesh it is a perspective game. It's not what happens so much as how I view it. I'm not advocating a think positive attitude just trying to explain how we can change within our very beings without being changed in our essences.
I think the Christ being revealed in us gives us a new perspective about all things. Of course it is much much more than that but these are just the start of some new thoughts you started in me.
cp
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 05:49:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 04:16:58 PM
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me,
--Gal 1
"reveal"
G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Oh my goodness...apokalupto...That's the Apocalypse? The lifting of the veil? :mshock:
:bgdance:
He said He would destroy the FACE OF **the covering** cast over the nations and the veil is His flesh (not knowing Him by the flesh) Wouldnt you think it was an OPEN FACE beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord? The unveiling or revealing of Jesus Christ in us.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the
**light** to shine out of darkness, hath
shined in our hearts, to [give] the
light of the*** knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ ** :icon_flower:
Rev 21:11
Having the ***glory of God: and her
light ***[was] like unto a stone most precious, even
like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a
pure river of water of life,
clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either
side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the
leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:3 And there
shall be no more curse: but the
throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:4 And they
shall see his face; and his
name [shall be] in their foreheads. Rev 22:5 And there
shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the
Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 15, 2009, 01:46:28 PM
wow ! , :icon_flower: there is nothing more to add guys cept this maybe :thumbsup:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
:HeartThrob:
Amen Rose! What a beautiful post! You know just like Johns ministry where John decreased and Christ did increase in the lives of his followers. You can sorta see the same thing in the apostles not preach themselves but Christ as Lord, thus the record of John given on his behalf, and his own profession in which he failed not to confess when asked who he was. That he was sent to bear a witness to that light, but was not that light. Even as the friend of the bridegroom (like Paul) who wanted to present them to ONE HUSBAND and the travail in their own positions to serve the Lord and hearing the voice of the bridegroom (or Christ formed in them) was their highest joy. Always pointing to Christ not themselves. I loved that. Paul speaks of begetting them through the gospel. Laboring with Christ to bring forth to delievery it appears.
:HeartThrob:
"the friend of the bridegroom"
I love that--
The best man, the midwife, the angel of God, ---the ambassador from the Holy City--
apostolos--the apostle.
John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
One thing I do remember wanting to touch on was the idea of the serpent no longer existing . . . I see this to be connected one, to what Taf just posted about no more curse . .and two . .no more seas. It is as someone commented earlier on this, seas represent both carnality and Holy Spirit, depending on the context. In this setting . .in Revelation, I am certain it's referring to no more carnality. There is another picture in the same book where Jesus has a little book and he's swearing . ..giving an oath while one foot is on the sea, the other is on the land.
Anyone see the significance of what this is a picture of? I'm curious. the sea and land . . .any ideas?
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2009, 06:15:14 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 15, 2009, 01:46:28 PM
wow ! , :icon_flower: there is nothing more to add guys cept this maybe :thumbsup:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
:HeartThrob:
Amen Rose! What a beautiful post! You know just like Johns ministry where John decreased and Christ did increase in the lives of his followers. You can sorta see the same thing in the apostles not preach themselves but Christ as Lord, thus the record of John given on his behalf, and his own profession in which he failed not to confess when asked who he was. That he was sent to bear a witness to that light, but was not that light. Even as the friend of the bridegroom (like Paul) who wanted to present them to ONE HUSBAND and the travail in their own positions to serve the Lord and hearing the voice of the bridegroom (or Christ formed in them) was their highest joy. Always pointing to Christ not themselves. I loved that. Paul speaks of begetting them through the gospel. Laboring with Christ to bring forth to delievery it appears.
:HeartThrob:
"the friend of the bridegroom"
I love that--
The best man, the midwife, the angel of God, ---the ambassador from the Holy City--apostolos--the apostle.
John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Were not the ten virgins considered as friends of the bride groom?
I hear ya Fire.
Like in my last post about retaining the old. I am seeing that maybe the way I look at putting off the old and putting on the new is wrong. It is to be done for sure but I don't know if, by taking the old away as I have viewed it, would be to create a new that is so new as to not be me.
In other words, I think much of what I think of as the old man, isn't. What is the old may be whatever is in me that causes me to view things wrongly. OK, this is getting weird, hard to put into words. Any help out there, like telling me to shut up?
cp
Quote from: Nathan on January 15, 2009, 06:22:02 PM
One thing I do remember wanting to touch on was the idea of the serpent no longer existing . . . I see this to be connected one, to what Taf just posted about no more curse . .and two . .no more seas. It is as someone commented earlier on this, seas represent both carnality and Holy Spirit, depending on the context. In this setting . .in Revelation, I am certain it's referring to no more carnality. There is another picture in the same book where Jesus has a little book and he's swearing . ..giving an oath while one foot is on the sea, the other is on the land.
Anyone see the significance of what this is a picture of? I'm curious. the sea and land . . .any ideas?
Not sure Nate , Kinda see it after God declaring Man( after his image) having Dominion over the Earth and sea, IN THE spirtual sence that is
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Maybe Rosey or others could expound more :icon_flower:
Nathan: One thing I do remember wanting to touch on was the idea of the serpent no longer existing . . . I see this to be connected one, to what Taf just posted about no more curse . .and two . .no more seas. It is as someone commented earlier on this, seas represent both carnality and Holy Spirit, depending on the context. In this setting . .in Revelation, I am certain it's referring to no more carnality. There is another picture in the same book where Jesus has a little book and he's swearing . ..giving an oath while one foot is on the sea, the other is on the land.
Anyone see the significance of what this is a picture of? I'm curious. the sea and land . . .any ideas?
Nathan, those were the examples I was thinking of when I wrote about the water and blood issuing from the side of Jesus. I think the water in that context represents how the carnality is drained from us through crucifixion.
I could live for a million years trying to get rid of the mortality and corruption in me but I wouldn't be able to do it. Not to be disrespectful to our Lord but I see Jesus as kind of a sin sponge. He is revealed in us and absorbs all our sins and is squeezed out (crucified) into a lake of eternal forgiveness (Our God).
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Anyone see the significance of what this is a picture of? I'm curious. the sea and land . . .any ideas?[/b]
:cloud9: Hi CP, finally made it to the last page.....great posts by all! Anyway...
Sea = waters above the firmament (firmament is heaven typified by inner court realm)
Land = waters below the firmament = waters (spirits) in flesh (outer court realm)
Christ our mediator stands between us and the Father, in the firmament. This was illustrated by what He said to Nicodemus, which was basically, I'm speaking to you right here, but I'm in heaven. And why Paul said our conversation is in heaven, because He lifts us up to be seated in heavenly places IN HIM. We can't speak out of a place we don't dwell in. Our "accent" gives it away every time. :winkgrin: Blessings...
cp wrote: I could live for a million years trying to get rid of the mortality and corruption in me but I wouldn't be able to do it. Not to be disrespectful to our Lord but I see Jesus as kind of a sin sponge. He is revealed in us and absorbs all our sins and is squeezed out (crucified) into a lake of eternal forgiveness (Our God).
cp
Let me add that I put this very simply but I also see us as with Jesus during this whole process. We have absorbed sin, we get squeezed with Jesus. This is God making us into His image and we know Who is the image of God, don't we?
(Jesus) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead....col1.15
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on January 15, 2009, 07:21:01 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Anyone see the significance of what this is a picture of? I'm curious. the sea and land . . .any ideas?[/b]
:cloud9: Hi CP, finally made it to the last page.....great posts by all! Anyway...
Sea = waters above the firmament (firmament is heaven typified by inner court realm)
Land = waters below the firmament = waters (spirits) in flesh (outer court realm)
Christ our mediator stands between us and the Father, in the firmament. This was illustrated by what He said to Nicodemus, which was basically, I'm speaking to you right here, but I'm in heaven. And why Paul said our conversation is in heaven, because He lifts us up to be seated in heavenly places IN HIM. We can't speak out of a place we don't dwell in. Our "accent" gives it away every time. :winkgrin: Blessings...
Always say so much via the written word, you do, Card. Speak forth and do not hold back. I am like that robot in that movie that just needed more input and your input is coveted.
cp
:cloud9: He uses different words that hide the same principle all through there. No more sea in this case is no more outer court realm, ie. ALL have come into the presence of the Lord.
Waters below the firmament can also mean anything created by the Spirit, ie. ANYTHING below the firmament which is heaven, which would include natural land. That's why He can interchange the words but the heart of the matter is the same. Blessings...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:27:16 PM
Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?
Fire, I know you asked Card but may I add my 2 cents? I think of these statements of the Spirit.......
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne [there was]
a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.rev4.5
and
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a
sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass , having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almightyrev15.1
cp
:cloud9: Amen CP. A sea of "glass" means one that is not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. It is calm because it has come into His presence. He calms the seas, does He not? What manner of man is this, they said.
When I first came to the Lord, I was reading the part in there about Him walking on the water, and when I got to the part about the wind, the Lord spoke to me and said, "Satan is nothing but a big bag of wind!"
I cracked up laughing, it was just like He was looking over my shoulder as I read, and made His own comment on the text. Many a thing has been gleaned from that one comment and that one passage of scripture. Blessings....
In Solomons temple, the laver was called the sea as well . . .and when I see this passage . .that's what I think of as the laver was connected to washing and cleansing . .as is the "lake" of "fire" which I see as a sea, mingled with fire.
If baptism unto water = change of thinking . . .(mind)
then baptism unto spirit = change of heart . .(spirit)
baptism of fire .. .change of nature. . . .(body)
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:27:16 PM
Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?
Also Fire, it just strengthens a statement I made a while back.......Scriputure is a code. Needs deciphering. You know this I know. It is so good when Scripture is brought up to show when it is used for multiple meanings.
God is not the Author of confusion but some day I'm going to take Him up on that one I think!!! Abba will love it I think. Abba is likened to a divine fox and He couldn't have 'caused' more confusion amongst us people if He tried but I sincerely say all this with reverential respect for Him.
What about 'God is not the Author of confusion'. I'm going to take that one on in a minute I think. Gots to eat now! Can't live on Scripture alone....or can we?
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 07:25:05 PM
cp wrote: I could live for a million years trying to get rid of the mortality and corruption in me but I wouldn't be able to do it. Not to be disrespectful to our Lord but I see Jesus as kind of a sin sponge. He is revealed in us and absorbs all our sins and is squeezed out (crucified) into a lake of eternal forgiveness (Our God).
cp
Let me add that I put this very simply but I also see us as with Jesus during this whole process. We have absorbed sin, we get squeezed with Jesus. This is God making us into His image and we know Who is the image of God, don't we?
(Jesus) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead....col1.15
cp
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 15, 2009, 07:41:44 PM
:cloud9: Amen CP. A sea of "glass" means one that is not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. It is calm because it has come into His presence. He calms the seas, does He not? What manner of man is this, they said.
When I first came to the Lord, I was reading the part in there about Him walking on the water, and when I got to the part about the wind, the Lord spoke to me and said, "Satan is nothing but a big bag of wind!"
I cracked up laughing, it was just like He was looking over my shoulder as I read, and made His own comment on the text. Many a thing has been gleaned from that one comment and that one passage of scripture. Blessings....
I have actually seen a 'sea of glass,' way offshore in my sailboat when there is not a breath of air.
It's a very beautiful sight--I wish I could describe it--totally smooth water, almost transparent (which is what the word glass means), reflecting unbelievably beautiful light because of it's vast size and smoothness, seeming to be spilling over the horizon, as though nothing can contain it--
This is totally different from a lake experience because of its vastness and because the water fills up everything to the horizon on all sides...as far as the eye can see...
wow , That was lovely Molly your description , I could picture this in my minds eye :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:
:cloud9: I understand Fire, I know the "irked" till it fits into place, well, LOL. I have never shared this, but as you brought up sapphire stone, it brought it back to my memory. I was doing home health and I was used to bring an Italian war bride who was raised Catholic, to salvation. The night of the day she received Him, I was given a night vision, as I slept on the floor next to her bed (required of me).
I was stunned to see in the Spirit a most beautiful sight, and I still don't understand it, but here it is. I saw probably a thousand blue sapphires lit from within, about 3/4 of an inch in size, square ones, in like what I can only describe as a "crossword puzzle" shape, with the squares being sapphires, here and there. It was as if it was her spiritual "DNA" (blue being the color of the heavens) laid out as a foundation beneath her, was all I could think of. That's it. Blessings....
Two things . .if I don't forget . . .
sea of crystal . . .it's the same as the water in the river flowing out from God's thrown . . .we're in it . .but it's transparent. We're enveloped by the presence that natural eyes can't see, natural ears can't hear.
Kim . . . the passage you posted just nailed me.
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall ***SAY*** unto this mountain """be thou removed """ and be thou CAST into THE SEA; and shall NOT DOUBT in his heart, but shall **BELIEVE** THAT **those things** which **HE SAITH** shall come to pass; he shall have """whatsover"" **HE SAITH**
This mountain that burned with fire . .that is the mountain law originated on. And when I take 'this' mountain of law . . government of religion . .and I cast it into the see . .the crystal sea . .where the crystal river pours into . .the completed will of the Father. When I cast my foundation of law into this sea . . .and NOT DOUBT . . .that's the seedling of faith. Once my law/mountain is removed, the veil is removed from my mind and the invisible things become made known . .. revelation springs forth "after" I've cast my mountain of knowledge of sin into the crystal sea. . . .
HOOOOO RAHHHHHH. :angelharp:
QuoteOnce my law/mountain is removed, the veil is removed from my mind and the invisible things become made known . .. revelation springs forth "after" I've cast my mountain of knowledge of sin into the crystal sea. . . .
:Sparkletooth:
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Kinda see it that way Myself Kim :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 11:06:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 15, 2009, 07:41:44 PM
:cloud9: Amen CP. A sea of "glass" means one that is not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. It is calm because it has come into His presence. He calms the seas, does He not? What manner of man is this, they said.
When I first came to the Lord, I was reading the part in there about Him walking on the water, and when I got to the part about the wind, the Lord spoke to me and said, "Satan is nothing but a big bag of wind!"
I cracked up laughing, it was just like He was looking over my shoulder as I read, and made His own comment on the text. Many a thing has been gleaned from that one comment and that one passage of scripture. Blessings....
Ok now I gotcha walking on the water verses sinking is all I needed on that one Card yes I can see that, is it sorta like Ye are from beneath I am from above type thing? Like Jesus was walking over their heads if the waters are peoples? Me and Rose were talking about the tongues of angels and of men. If Paul could talk differently among them that were spiritual but not of the same tongue as those who were more carnal maybe? Because that makes sense to me. As Rose said, "the angels of God ascending and descending upon that latter (being Christ) who speaks both of earthly things and heavenly things.
Am I catching onto it yet?
:cloud9: You got it....... :thumbsup:
[quote
And just because you get one picture doesnt nessesarily mean you get all of them or how they tie in and thats where I find myself now.
:HeartThrob:
[/quote]
"That's" why we need to assemble ourselves together . . when we, as pieces assemble, we manifest the complete picture of the glory of God . . .maybe that's why I felt such a connection when you came back . . .we've been fitted together . . .you on one side, Taf on the other . . . as that famous saying goes in the movie made in that GREAT state of Iowa, "Field of Dreams" where Kostner says . . "Am I in heaven?" Being linked with you guys causes me to ask the same thing.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 11:00:12 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:27:16 PM
Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?
Fire, I know you asked Card but may I add my 2 cents? I think of these statements of the Spirit.......
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.rev4.5
and
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass , having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almightyrev15.1
cp
Thanks Clay, yes good verses, I was sorta thinking in relation to the sea becoming a fire is that Jesus said if you had faith you could say unto this mountain "Be thou CAST into the sea" and we know the Lord descended upon Mt Sinai in FIRE and in revelation a great burning mount (we have not come to) was CAST into the sea. I sorta see that as the Law in a sense. For instance the power of sin = the law, he also casts our sins into the depth of the sea and the "no more sea" which at first became as the blood of a dead man (Adam?) I was seeing Sea in that respect, but I also realize that there are other similitudes I would love to see but if I cant I ask hoping for some scriptures because it sure helps.
Heres an example just so you know where I am coming from on that one portion (its just a copy paste from my study Im not typing this all up or nothing)
The Lord said Luke 12:49 I AM COME to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it BE **ALREADY kindled**?
Exodus 19:18 And **mount Sinai** was altogether on a smoke, because **THE LORD DESCENDED** upon **IT** IN FIRE: and the smoke **thereof** ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Jesus said NOW is the time for Judgment
Ephes 4:9 (Now that **he ascended[/b]**, what is it but that he also DESCENDED **FIRST** INTO the lower parts of the earth?
Rose showed me this Mount Sinai....Mount SIN - AI (SIN I). :grin:
Through THE LAW comes The Knowledge OF SIN.
Mount Sinai represents "the law" (first order)
Ephes 4:10 He that descended **is** THE SAME ALSO** that **ASCENDED UP** far above all heavens, that he might FILL all things.
The law is NOT of faith, we were SHUT UP to the Faith, and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, "Faith IS come" (revealed in us)
Mat 21:21 Verily I say unto you, If ye **have faith**, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall **SAY **unto **this mountain** ***Be thou removed,*** and be thou CAST **INTO** THE SEA; ***it shall be done***
Rev 8:8 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and **as it were** a great ***mountain burning with fire*** WAS CAST **INTO** THE SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood;
NOT the mount that BURNED with Fire = MT Sinai
Heb 12:18-19 For ye ARE NOT COME unto ***the mount*** that might be touched, and that ***burned with fire***
Again emphasizing "We believe" therefore WE SPEAK to show it again...
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall ***SAY*** unto this mountain """be thou removed """ and be thou CAST into THE SEA; and shall NOT DOUBT in his heart, but shall **BELIEVE** THAT **those things** which **HE SAITH** shall come to pass; he shall have """whatsover"" **HE SAITH**
**We BELIEVE** therefore **WE SPEAK**, that **your faith** (which IS come) may become **effectual** through **the acknowleging of** every good thing" in you in Christ
(GRACE and truth come BY HIM) :bigGrin:
The angel speaking to Zerubbabel "shoutings"
Zach 4:7 WHO art thou, O great mountain? **before** Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall ***bring forth*** the headstone ~thereof~ ***with SHOUTINGS*** crying, **Grace,** grace **UNTO IT**.
Rev 8:33 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and as it were A GREAT MOUNTAIN ***burning with FIRE** was CAST into the SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood
Too freaking kool :grin: Sorry I repeat myself in my notes to remind me where I am (cause I get lost easy) :grin:
Shut UP under The Law **UNTIL** FAITH IS **REVEALED** BOTH MOUNT SINAI & OUR SINS get CAST into the SEA.
Now faith is come
1Cr 13:2... though I have ALL FAITH, so that I COULD **REMOVE** MOUNTAINS, and ***have not Charity, I am nothing**
We ADD to our faith, our faith worketh by love
**The power of** sin is "The Law" (when we were "in the flesh"). Through the law comes the "knowledge of sin". The law is not of faith and now that faith is come we are not under the tutor (which was meant to lead us to Christ) = Lord have "mercy upon me" = a sinner.
The sins committed under the first covenant represented by "Mt Sinai" is cast into the Sea. Our sins into the depths of the Sea too. For without the law sin is dead and Sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under The Law but under Grace. "Shouts of GRACE to it"
Mic 7:19 He will **turn again**, He will have compassion upon us; He will **SUBDUE** our iniquities ; and THOU wilt CAST " ALL their SINS " INTO the depths of the SEA
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth were passed away; and there was NO MORE SEA. (The New covenant is THE SECOND) He **MADE** the FIRST OLD and ALL things are NEW even the New covenant.
It would make sense (spiritually speaking) if our sins are cast INTO the SEA
THAT there is NO MORE "SEA", **THE FORMER THINGS** are NOT REMEMBERED AS HE REMEMBERS ***OUR SINS*** NO MORE
Which speaks the same here...
Heb 11:17 And their SINS and INIQUITIES will I REMEMBER NO MORE.
Again its after a covenant (the first, which made nothing perfect) is taken away and HE**establishes** the Second (the better hope which DID)
Romans 11:27 For this is MY COVENANT unto them, when **I** shall TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.
1John 3:5 And ye know that He was MANIFESTED to TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and IN HIM is NO SIN
To be found IN HIM (not having a righteousness of our OWN) by the Law but being FOUND in Him (a righteousness) NOW made manifest WITHOUT THE LAW.
He makes THE FIRST OLD and makes ALL things NEW (even the Second, which is the NEW covenant). Its in THE NEW heaven and NEW earth (we are TO LOOK) and AT those things which are NOT SEEN WHEREIN **DWELLETH** righteousness (2Peter 3:13) Christ (The LORD is our righteousness). Christ IN us. For heaven and earth will pass away BUT NOT MY WORDS (Luke 21:33)
Luke 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for ***there shall be*** a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
Not to the Mount that BURNED with FIRE (Mt Sinai)
Heb 12:28 For ye are NOT COME unto THE MOUNT that might be TOUCHED, and that BURNED with FIRE nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:22 But **YE ARE COME** unto MOUNT SION, and unto the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the General assembly and Church of **the firstborn** which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT .
THE LAW made NOTHING PERFECT **BUT** the BETTER HOPE DID
Be not MOVED AWAY from *The HOPE of* the gospel, we shall SEE HIM as He IS for as HE IS so are WE (not "out of") but *IN* THIS WORLD, and he that hath **THIS HOPE** in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF as He himself is PURE = The pure in heart SHALL SEE GOD. Its a PURIFYING HOPE, we are saved by HOPE.
Jesus said, in my Fathers House are Many Mansion's
I loved what Rose showed me this is so kool....**Mansions** ... MAN -SIONS ( Mount SION ) JUST MEN made PERFECT. The JUST shall live BY FAITH....That isnt through The Law (the law is NOT of faith) and The Law made NOTHING PERFECT. Faith worketh by LOVE and we are perfected in love.
As long as I can see some connection somewhere I'll follow it through but I dont want to drive you crazy with verses either but "I" do really appreciate them cause Im very interested in the paterns so its helpful to me.
:bgdance: :bgdance:
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2009, 01:38:38 AM
[quote
And just because you get one picture doesnt nessesarily mean you get all of them or how they tie in and thats where I find myself now.
:HeartThrob:
"That's" why we need to assemble ourselves together . . when we, as pieces assemble, we manifest the complete picture of the glory of God . . .maybe that's why I felt such a connection when you came back . . .we've been fitted together . . .you on one side, Taf on the other . . . as that famous saying goes in the movie made in that GREAT state of Iowa, "Field of Dreams" where Kostner says . . "Am I in heaven?" Being linked with you guys causes me to ask the same thing.
[/quote]
Yeah,,NoW thats SINGING..YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
oh Nate,,,YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
the sisters KNow..yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
YEHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
IS yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
so Yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :icon_flower:
so yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to that post :icon_flower: matey
Sorry . . did I sound "pitchy"??? (Simon Cowell's trademark.)
Quote from: Zeek on January 16, 2009, 01:48:12 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 11:00:12 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 15, 2009, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 15, 2009, 07:27:16 PM
Card Im curious, what do you do with "No more Sea" then within that similitude?
Fire, I know you asked Card but may I add my 2 cents? I think of these statements of the Spirit.......
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.rev4.5
and
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass , having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almightyrev15.1
cp
Thanks Clay, yes good verses, I was sorta thinking in relation to the sea becoming a fire is that Jesus said if you had faith you could say unto this mountain "Be thou CAST into the sea" and we know the Lord descended upon Mt Sinai in FIRE and in revelation a great burning mount (we have not come to) was CAST into the sea. I sorta see that as the Law in a sense. For instance the power of sin = the law, he also casts our sins into the depth of the sea and the "no more sea" which at first became as the blood of a dead man (Adam?) I was seeing Sea in that respect, but I also realize that there are other similitudes I would love to see but if I cant I ask hoping for some scriptures because it sure helps.
Heres an example just so you know where I am coming from on that one portion (its just a copy paste from my study Im not typing this all up or nothing)
The Lord said Luke 12:49 I AM COME to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it BE **ALREADY kindled**?
Exodus 19:18 And **mount Sinai** was altogether on a smoke, because **THE LORD DESCENDED** upon **IT** IN FIRE: and the smoke **thereof** ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Jesus said NOW is the time for Judgment
Ephes 4:9 (Now that **he ascended[/b]**, what is it but that he also DESCENDED **FIRST** INTO the lower parts of the earth?
Rose showed me this Mount Sinai....Mount SIN - AI (SIN I). :grin:
Through THE LAW comes The Knowledge OF SIN.
Mount Sinai represents "the law" (first order)
Ephes 4:10 He that descended **is** THE SAME ALSO** that **ASCENDED UP** far above all heavens, that he might FILL all things.
The law is NOT of faith, we were SHUT UP to the Faith, and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, "Faith IS come" (revealed in us)
Mat 21:21 Verily I say unto you, If ye **have faith**, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall **SAY **unto **this mountain** ***Be thou removed,*** and be thou CAST **INTO** THE SEA; ***it shall be done***
Rev 8:8 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and **as it were** a great ***mountain burning with fire*** WAS CAST **INTO** THE SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood;
NOT the mount that BURNED with Fire = MT Sinai
Heb 12:18-19 For ye ARE NOT COME unto ***the mount*** that might be touched, and that ***burned with fire***
Again emphasizing "We believe" therefore WE SPEAK to show it again...
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall ***SAY*** unto this mountain """be thou removed """ and be thou CAST into THE SEA; and shall NOT DOUBT in his heart, but shall **BELIEVE** THAT **those things** which **HE SAITH** shall come to pass; he shall have """whatsover"" **HE SAITH**
**We BELIEVE** therefore **WE SPEAK**, that **your faith** (which IS come) may become **effectual** through **the acknowleging of** every good thing" in you in Christ
(GRACE and truth come BY HIM) :bigGrin:
The angel speaking to Zerubbabel "shoutings"
Zach 4:7 WHO art thou, O great mountain? **before** Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall ***bring forth*** the headstone ~thereof~ ***with SHOUTINGS*** crying, **Grace,** grace **UNTO IT**.
Rev 8:33 And the second angel **SOUNDED**, and as it were A GREAT MOUNTAIN ***burning with FIRE** was CAST into the SEA: and the third part of the sea became blood
Too freaking kool :grin: Sorry I repeat myself in my notes to remind me where I am (cause I get lost easy) :grin:
Shut UP under The Law **UNTIL** FAITH IS **REVEALED** BOTH MOUNT SINAI & OUR SINS get CAST into the SEA.
Now faith is come
1Cr 13:2... though I have ALL FAITH, so that I COULD **REMOVE** MOUNTAINS, and ***have not Charity, I am nothing**
We ADD to our faith, our faith worketh by love
**The power of** sin is "The Law" (when we were "in the flesh"). Through the law comes the "knowledge of sin". The law is not of faith and now that faith is come we are not under the tutor (which was meant to lead us to Christ) = Lord have "mercy upon me" = a sinner.
The sins committed under the first covenant represented by "Mt Sinai" is cast into the Sea. Our sins into the depths of the Sea too. For without the law sin is dead and Sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under The Law but under Grace. "Shouts of GRACE to it"
Mic 7:19 He will **turn again**, He will have compassion upon us; He will **SUBDUE** our iniquities ; and THOU wilt CAST " ALL their SINS " INTO the depths of the SEA
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST heaven and the FIRST earth were passed away; and there was NO MORE SEA. (The New covenant is THE SECOND) He **MADE** the FIRST OLD and ALL things are NEW even the New covenant.
It would make sense (spiritually speaking) if our sins are cast INTO the SEA
THAT there is NO MORE "SEA", **THE FORMER THINGS** are NOT REMEMBERED AS HE REMEMBERS ***OUR SINS*** NO MORE
Which speaks the same here...
Heb 11:17 And their SINS and INIQUITIES will I REMEMBER NO MORE.
Again its after a covenant (the first, which made nothing perfect) is taken away and HE**establishes** the Second (the better hope which DID)
Romans 11:27 For this is MY COVENANT unto them, when **I** shall TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.
1John 3:5 And ye know that He was MANIFESTED to TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and IN HIM is NO SIN
To be found IN HIM (not having a righteousness of our OWN) by the Law but being FOUND in Him (a righteousness) NOW made manifest WITHOUT THE LAW.
He makes THE FIRST OLD and makes ALL things NEW (even the Second, which is the NEW covenant). Its in THE NEW heaven and NEW earth (we are TO LOOK) and AT those things which are NOT SEEN WHEREIN **DWELLETH** righteousness (2Peter 3:13) Christ (The LORD is our righteousness). Christ IN us. For heaven and earth will pass away BUT NOT MY WORDS (Luke 21:33)
Luke 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for ***there shall be*** a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
Not to the Mount that BURNED with FIRE (Mt Sinai)
Heb 12:28 For ye are NOT COME unto THE MOUNT that might be TOUCHED, and that BURNED with FIRE nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:22 But **YE ARE COME** unto MOUNT SION, and unto the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the General assembly and Church of **the firstborn** which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT .
THE LAW made NOTHING PERFECT **BUT** the BETTER HOPE DID
Be not MOVED AWAY from *The HOPE of* the gospel, we shall SEE HIM as He IS for as HE IS so are WE (not "out of") but *IN* THIS WORLD, and he that hath **THIS HOPE** in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF as He himself is PURE = The pure in heart SHALL SEE GOD. Its a PURIFYING HOPE, we are saved by HOPE.
Jesus said, in my Fathers House are Many Mansion's
I loved what Rose showed me this is so kool....**Mansions** ... MAN -SIONS ( Mount SION ) JUST MEN made PERFECT. The JUST shall live BY FAITH....That isnt through The Law (the law is NOT of faith) and The Law made NOTHING PERFECT. Faith worketh by LOVE and we are perfected in love.
As long as I can see some connection somewhere I'll follow it through but I dont want to drive you crazy with verses either but "I" do really appreciate them cause Im very interested in the paterns so its helpful to me.
:bgdance: :bgdance:
Steady Zeek...cant have any Micheal Jacksons Dancing.., thats My forte. :laughing7:
I missed this Post..Gonna save it the Morrow..beddies Time Bro for me :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2009, 02:00:14 AM
Sorry . . did I sound "pitchy"??? (Simon Cowell's trademark.)
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Fire: Hey that thing on "God is not the Author of confusion" is not to be misunderstood with "misunderstanding" someone.
I hear ya. I was just saying for someone (Someone) who is not an author of confusion to put forth writings and a world and a church that is filled with much (to say the least) confusion seems contradictory doesn't it? No disrespect to God here, just venting.
What do ya think?
cp
:cloud9: Fire, I'm so lost in this thread that I can't even find where I know you asked me about the scripture in Job, to quote you, LOL :mshock:
Anyway, if you haven't found it already, here it is....
Job 3:25 - For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
RESTORATION is that which comes from the Power of God, where there is No BUILDING, No PREACHING, No HYMNBOOKS, No CHOIRS, No ORGANS, No COLLECTI0N PLATES, No FORTY MINUTE SERMONS, and most of all NO SOLICITATION!
Now think of that for a moment ... THIS IS REVIVAL! :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie:
Wherever there is a manifestation of the Holiness of God, there will also be the revelation of Christ, like Paul on the way to Damascus.
Peacemaker
"We never bite the hand that feeds us."
AMEN SISTER! :boogie:
This is concerning "the Dead" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/b]
Some might say the death is "spiritual death" but some might say it is a "figurative death."
Hi Tony, My nephew asked me about
1Pet. 4: 6 in that it seems to fly in the face of soul sleep. Can you give me an
explanation of this verse so I could help him in his discussions with his mainstream
friends. He is defending the truth that we are reposing when we die, but he, nor I can
explain this verse. Can you or Dean give some light on this? I couldn't find anything
written on it besides the commentary, and I have difficulty understanding what A.E.K.
says there. Thanks, Ted
O.K. Ted, there is a real simple answer to the 1 Peter 4:6 problem concerning "the dead."
Let's look at the context first:
1Pe 4:1-6 Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves
with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins, (2) 2 by no
means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will
of God." (3) For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the
intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries,
drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries, (4) while they are thinking it strange of you not to
race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;" (5) who shall be
rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and
the dead. (6)
For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be
judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in
spirit."
The one who "spends the rest of his lifetime . . . in the will of God" (vs.2) is alive (alive
to God).
The ones who are doing the things of the flesh mentioned in verse 3 and 4 are dead (to
God).
The evangel is brought to those who were dead . . . (to God) in Peter's day. Though they
were alive, they were really "dead to God." Just as Jesus said "let the dead be
entombing the dead" He was saying, let those who are dead (to God) be entombing those
who really are dead. He told the person "Yet you follow Me." If he would have followed
Christ he would have been *alive* to God. Verse 5 above is about the judging of those
who are living (to God) and those who are dead (to God) by their living in the
debaucheries etc. Those who were dead to God, who were also evangelized were running
to the puddle of profilgacy.
The two widows, one living, one dead:
1Ti 5:5 Now one really a widow, and alone, relies on God and is remaining in petitions
and prayers night and day."1Ti 5:6 Yet she who is a prodigal, though living, is dead (to
God)."
Notice the widow who relies on God and remains in petitions and prayers night and day?
She is alive . . . to God.
Now look at the widow who is prodigaling her wealth. She has no need for God. She is
spening freely and foolishly. She, though by all appearances is living, is really dead . . .
to God.
So 1 Peter 4:5 is not about an evangel going to dead people in their tombs or to
disembodied spirits (if there were such a thing) but to people who were alive in Peter's
day but who were dead to God by their deplorable acts of the flesh.
Does this help? I told you it would be simple.
Tony
even though the Bible says that "Christ died for our sins" there are some people who believe that Christ didn't really reside in death for three days and nights but was with the thief in paradise beginning that day. So they believe He wasn't really dead.
I don't believe Christ was in paradise that day but will, in the future be in paradise with the thief.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Concordant Literal)
Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.
So was Christ figuratively dead or did He really die for our sins? It can't be both.
Tony
Hi FF,
I think Paul was not caught away to paradise. Someone he knew was caught away to the third heaven.
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
The third heaven is not a vertical destination but horizontal as to time . . . in the future.
John, in spirit, too saw the third heaven which is in conjunction with the new earth and could be called the third earth.
The first heaven and earth came forth from chaos and vacancy in Genesis. The second heaven and earth came forth from the flood. The third heaven and earth come forth from a heaven and earth destroyed by fire.
So it was that third heaven that, in spirit, Paul, or someone he knew of, who saw the third heaven.
Paradise is part of the 1000 year kindgom and it was that kingdom the thief asked Christ to remember him when He comes in His kingdom. That day Christ promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise but to be understood that he would be with Him in paradise when He comes in His kingdom.
You hip to this trip? :boyheart:
Quote from: Tony N on January 18, 2009, 04:37:15 PM
Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.
While I understand the argument, it is not impossible to be in paradise today unless we are bound to what an interpretation of paradise is. The emotional aspect of things, perhaps....
The comma placment depends on the argument of doctrine. There are no commas in the original text, so a comma is based on the doctrinal position of the scholars or translators, nothing more nothing less. But is it necessary to decide which in order to gain the truth?
My physical life may not be considered paradise but my real encounter with Jesus brings me to a place of paradise, now. Is it what my emotions or desires imagine? Maybe not, but as I read countless posts and arguments over the "fear of hell" "am I doing enough for christ" "am I pleasing to God" "whats Gods will for me" "what does God want me to do".
Then I realize, yes, I am in paradise today because I do not live in any fear of the unknown. Will things be even better in the future when God becomes ALL in ALL? I believe so, so, it can indeed be both for me.
:cloud9: I believe Paul was speaking of Stephen, as Paul was standing there holding his garments as he was stoned to death. Without Stephen's remitting of his sins on the spot, there would have been no Paul, but only still a "Saul". Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 19, 2009, 05:45:36 PM
:cloud9: I believe Paul was speaking of Stephen, as Paul was standing there holding his garments as he was stoned to death. Without Stephen's remitting of his sins on the spot, there would have been no Paul, but only still a "Saul". Blessings....
wow! :mshock:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 19, 2009, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 18, 2009, 04:37:15 PM
Notice the comma is after "today." In the KJV and many other translations the comma is before "today" making the person think that "today" the two would be in paradise. But that is impossible.
While I understand the argument, it is not impossible to be in paradise today unless we are bound to what an interpretation of paradise is. The emotional aspect of things, perhaps....
The comma placment depends on the argument of doctrine. There are no commas in the original text, so a comma is based on the doctrinal position of the scholars or translators, nothing more nothing less. But is it necessary to decide which in order to gain the truth?
My physical life may not be considered paradise but my real encounter with Jesus brings me to a place of paradise, now. Is it what my emotions or desires imagine? Maybe not, but as I read countless posts and arguments over the "fear of hell" "am I doing enough for christ" "am I pleasing to God" "whats Gods will for me" "what does God want me to do".
Then I realize, yes, I am in paradise today because I do not live in any fear of the unknown. Will things be even better in the future when God becomes ALL in ALL? I believe so, so, it can indeed be both for me.
Dear Paul, neither Christ nor the thief were in any sort of paradise when the died nor while on the cross. When they were in death, death was an enemy. It is the ultimate in being cut off from the life of God. It is bad.
FF, where in Scripture do you find the third heaven to be paradise? Paradise seems to be on the new earth which would be the third earth, not in a third heaven. dig? :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on January 19, 2009, 06:18:51 PM
Dear Paul, neither Christ nor the thief were in any sort of paradise when the died nor while on the cross. When they were in death, death was an enemy. It is the ultimate in being cut off from the life of God. It is bad.
The theif realizing Christ was right in front of him was reassured of his fate, that is an immediate beginning of paradise. Death is portrayed as an enemy that is defeated, knowing your about to die a physical death with the faith it has no power is paradise bro.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses
2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.
2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Personally, I think Paul "was" referring to himself just as Mark, I think it was, was referring to himself when they tried to grab him when Jesus was taken and they literally tore his clothes off and he ran off naked. But regardless . . .I disagree that it's dealing with past, present or future as far as which heaven you're in. I believe the third heaven is the third dimension . .it's in the invisible realm where Hebrews 11 and the beginning of 12 speak that we are compassed about by a great cloud of witnesses .. . can we see them? No. Is it because those that were in the past are now in the future? I don't really believe so at all. I think it's because we "are" enveloped by these guys right here and now, they're simply in a different realm than the physically living.
As far as whether or not the thief went to paradise as he took his last breath . . . I think we're again, slipping into the natural reasoning aspect of this. Death to me, is simply a verb. It's the experience of spirit being separated from flesh. And both Jesus and the thief did experience this act. And on the other side of death is the unknown to my mind, but the spirit is calling the unknown paradise, heaven, the garden, a spiritual dimension . . . In order for Jesus to get the keys of sin, he had to go into the core of man . . . by way of separation from spirit and flesh.
Who's to say, during this three days . . according to "our" application of time . .that the thief was not taken into the kingdom? Why are we wanting to put a time limit as to "when" we "can" enter into heaven? Time does not measure God, nor can it measure his kingdom.
Hmmm . . .time is my measuring device through which I translate and interpret spiritual things . . .no wonder it doesn't fit anything in my traditional thinking. I'm using the wrong measuring device. Ezekiel was instructed to measure the temple . . and his measuring tool was a length of 6 cubics . . .coincidence? Old Testament tool of measuring. He was also told to measure the outer court . . .(natural dimension of things . . .works/labor based mentality) But in Zechariah 2, "he" was told "not" to measure the outer court because "in that day" (In Christ) there will be no walled cities. Because encompassing the city will be a fire of God around each and every one of us. You can't measure spiritual truth by trying to apply natural means . . .such as time.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses
2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.
2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:
2Co 12:2-4 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. " (3) And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware) (4) that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).
That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.
Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.
I think this is why it is so difficult to relay the thought of spiritual knowledge by the means of natural things.
Heaven is portrayed in scripture the only real way we can communicate it and that is the thought of some physical place. We say "God is in heaven" well, then he cannot be down here now then? But then we can agree God is everywhere, so is he simply in both places or is heaven in relationship to how we think a "state of existance" rather than some place we are "going" to? I believe it is the former.
Define "Paradise" and we can look at the dictionary, or someones interpretation of what the bible says about it, but reality is the fact that some people can enjoy things others hate. For instance, growing up Paradise was described to me as some never ending church worship service, my thought is that would be HELL to me. :happy3:
So my point is that realizations of actual truth, not just the assertions of another persons descriptions is the state of paradise for me. My life is not always what I'd like it to be, but there is no argument that can prove that my release from the misery of how I once thought is not paradise.
What can we get from the thief on the cross? He was facing his doom, nails through his body, understanding that he is not going to get out of this physical fate, only to recognize Christ and the hope that brings.
Hope my friends, hope in the midst of misery is indeed spiritual paradise.
QuoteI mean look at the tongue itself it is also shown as a tree of life (which is shown in the midst of the paradise of God) and that which pertains to having ones own conversation in heaven itself (where we are seated with Christ). That alone must make ya question how we percieve the thing. You got tongues of angels and men and the angels would ascend and decend upon the latter Jacob saw in His dream and Jesus speak of that as ascending and descending upon the Son of man here forword.
what a great reminder and very important things to remember.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 08:04:35 PM
Nat and Tony I never said it was Paul because I want to refrain from anything speculative (though I have my own musings on it) because its not important to the discussion.
If you disagree with the past, present or future deal its not me speaking of it :grin: Im only speaking of a dead body over and against the "in the body or without it" as it pertains to it. Though as I see it the "To day" as a declaration of the Holy Spirit and not a 24 hour period of time (or as you say "our application of time")
No, all's good . . .I know you purposefully declined to share your opinion on whether it was Paul or someone else . . .totally get it. And I also agree with you that it really doesn't matter whether it was Paul or someone else. Actually, that's kinda why I "did" share I think it's Paul . .cuz it's not a huge deal whether is wuz or wuznt. The fact was, "someone" did get taken up into the third heaven while they were yet still in their temporary bodies. . . which seems to be the point you were trying to make . .that we can go there "now" rather than wait until we physically die. And I also know it wasn't you implying the third heaven in a frame of time.
I'm not so sure that one can take the incident that is referred to between the thief and Christ and say that due to "that" instance, that one does "not" then immediately go to heaven when one dies. There are so many dividing lines between people when spiritual things are being applied with natural minds. Not so much lines of battle, just lines of philosophies.
I wrote some things elsewhere about these things. I hoped then as I hope now to interact. So often when I post something it drops like a rock into murky depths to never be seen again. It may be my fault, that I don't interact. But that still doesn't explain why there isn't much interaction with what I post. Some of it is the medium were working in. That is clear to me. Still, if I'm not making others freeze up, I can't tell the difference. I sometimes think part of it is my language "style." I read the Puritans when I was younger...and still do. (I'm reading and re-reading John Owen on the person and work of the Holy Spirit, 9 books, in vol 3 and 4 of his works. I could add that most of the great books on the Holy Spirit mention him prominently, granting him a sort of foremost status. He was in some ways first. But, this digresses...
One of the great gifts to the Eclessia in the 20th Century, our brother A. E. Knoch, had another idea of the 3 heavens. It is what I have seen and heard that has influenced me to differ.)
..............................
HEAVEN(S)
Heaven is not ever used in Scripture for a location in death, though that is it's popular meaning in contemporary English. While something at least like that place is referred to by Jesus (Lk 23:43) as "Paradise," it isn't anywhere expressly stated that death is a prerequisite for entrance to it. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Rv 2:7) There are other testimonies like Paul's (2 Co 12:1ff) from some among us concerning this place where all saints go. (This was said to me when I saw angels ascending and descending from a realm of excelling glory, that, "All saints go here.")
On the day of Pentecost in the midst of what Peter had to say are some interesting points contradicting cartoon Christianity's "die and go to heaven" doctrine. Quoting David he says, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Ac 2:27) A little later he says, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." (v.29) Peter points out that David wasn't talking about himself, but was prophesying. Concerning Jesus being sat down with the Father he says, "For David is not ascended into the heavens..." (v.34)
While never presented as our destination, "heaven" is our place of origin (Rev 21:9-10) and present habitation (Eph 2:6.) The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture. In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.) Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.
PARADISE
The realm of Paradise is the higher, closer side, that more directly seen through God's eyes, of this same creation of our outer lowered flesh man, though it is much more than that too. The vast and supernal expression, "...out of Him and through Him and into Him is the All..." (Romans 11:36) is translated by The New English Bible as, "He is the Source and the Guide and the Goal of everything..." Whatever is has it's Source side. We can be located at other points in this Divine dynamic when we are Harpazo-ed or "caught," (AV) "snatched" (CLV) by God. The immanent presentation of the cosmos is to not decide our disposition in reality. "Judge not by appearances; but, judge righteous judgment." (Isaiah) We can be in other times too. Through the realignment or manipulation of the Holy Spirit I have been granted to glimpse the glory that is right now just around the corner, if we could but enter into the Presence of Our Father. The Paradise of God is near, like going around a corner. We have to be free in God, or "possessed" (harpazo) by Him to move into these other realms. To be free in God we must let Him be free in us.
:cloud9: Well, reFormer, I love what you write and I glean from it. :thumbsup: I agree with the 3 heavens; the same was shown to me through the tabernacle pattern.
Outer court/1st "natural" heaven, encompasses all below the firmament (firmament, which is realm of Spirit/heaven) Christ in us
Inner court/realm of Spirit/heaven/us IN Christ
Holy of Holies/where the Father is
God the Father was IN CHRIST (second heaven/firmament) reconciling all men (outer court/first heaven), to Him.
Word for heaven, means "to heave up", like in the sense of a mountain is something "heaved up". Just as not all mountains are not the same height, so too are the different heavens. His ways are HIGHER than our ways.
Second heaven, is not just soulish or psychic, but is the realm of the Spirit of God also. Man can "ascend" for this reason in a pyschic sense, but without the covering of Christ "catching them up "there", those that dabble in those sorts of activities, are as an uncovered woman/soul and as such are easy prey for demonic spirits. Which is why Satan said "I will ascend". Blessings...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third? :grin: I havent checked :grin:
Hi FF,
Here is one verse to consider:
2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that
there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"
So it seems to me that by "heavens" that means plural or more than one. The original heaven and earth became chaos and vacant (Gen.1). Then the second heaven and earth done in Noah's day with a new heaven and earth coming out of that water too. Then the third heaven and earth coming about after the fire in the future. I believe that the person Paul speaks of saw that third heaven and the paradise on the new earth.
Hi,
I liked your post Reformer. I don't understand where you go with this in the outcome of humanity though. I understand that heaven is not a far off golden location where believers go after they die. I understand it is a spiritual realm and also heavens is typical of government in some ways. But is there ever an 'end' to the way life here goes on? Do believers just ascend into this heavenly realm and then what about unvelievers at death? Are they just also assumed into the heavenlies and completely converted in an instant without having to undergo eartly trials and tribulations AFTER their new birth (as I see that the Bible clearly delineates that it's the trials and tribulations AFTER conversion that make us fit for the Kingdom of God, not anything we endure BEFORE conversion)? Where does ruling and reigning with God come into play if there is no 'time' on earth where all 'men' see the truth of God through Jesus Christ/a body of sons. What do the scriptures which speak of a 'time' (there's that word again) when all the inhabitants will learn righteousness, the lion will lie down with the lamb, the sword will be turned into a plowshare, mean if there isn't a literal historical period of God reigning on this earth over fleshly men? And I still believe that no individual has become perfected other than Jesus Christ because of the emphasis that Paul put on resurrection, and I can't see where he means any kind of resurrection other than a physical one for he spoke of hope and one who is alive in some meaningful way would not be hoping for resurrection. He never said that the believers' loved ones were enjoying life with Christ, he said they were 'asleep' in Christ. That is a pretty ambiguous way to describe an abundant life. I'm truly asking. I do believe that the spiritual is more 'real', if you will, than the mere physical, but tell me why Paul was so verbose about Christ's resurrection and our FUTURE resurrection if that were just a small matter? What did the passage in Ezekiel where he said the overcoming priests would serve God dressed in linen in the holy place and then change into 'other' garments when they came to serve the people, but the priests who had given in to their carnality could only serve in the court of the people? And if you quote a lot of scripture, please tie it in with explanations. It's just me and not trying to say that what some of you do is not edifying to many others, but I can't follow well with broken sentences, lots of spaces between sentences and just a myriad of scriptures and then definitions of words. I guess my mind requires a logical train of thought after thought.
Hi Tony, you speak of the first heavens passing away when Genesis spoke of a disruption, etc. Then you say in Noah's time the second heavens and earth were created. This confuses me a bit. What then was the earth and heavens that existed during the time that God created Adam and all the stuff that went on between his creation and the flood of Noah? Am I missing something here?
Dang, I have more questions but I am running late for getting ready for work as it is.
Peace
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 19, 2009, 07:57:50 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses
2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.
2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:
2Co 12:2-4 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. " (3) And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware) (4) that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).
That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.
Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.
I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third? :grin: I havent checked :grin:
Dear FF,
It has to do with translation:
Rev 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth,
for the former heaven and
the former earth pass away, and the sea is no more."
There was a heavens and an earth before:
2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"
The third is here:
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
I'm not saying I have all this down pat. But let's try and piece it together like this:
Genesis 1:1 was the original heavens and earth.
Genesis 1:2 is the 1st new heaven and earth after the original?
After the flood is the 2nd new heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
After the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire is coming the 3rd heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
Does that work?
Besides all that, Christ was D-E-A-D for three days and nights and only on the third day did God rouse Him out of death. And during that death Jesus did not ascend in any way, shape of form to the Father for He said:
Joh 20:17 ". . . Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father."
So Jesus did not, nor did the thief go to paradise the day they died. Not mentally, not physically, not spiritually, not figuratively.
Quote from: Tony N on January 21, 2009, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 19, 2009, 07:57:50 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses
2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.
2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:
2Co 12:2-4 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. " (3) And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware) (4) that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).
That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.
Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.
I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third? :grin: I havent checked :grin:
Dear FF,
It has to do with translation:
Rev 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is no more."
There was a heavens and an earth before:
2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"
The third is here:
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
I'm not saying I have all this down pat. But let's try and piece it together like this:
Genesis 1:1 was the original heavens and earth.
Genesis 1:2 is the 1st new heaven and earth after the original?
After the flood is the 2nd new heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
After the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire is coming the 3rd heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
Does that work?
Besides all that, Christ was D-E-A-D for three days and nights and only on the third day did God rouse Him out of death. And during that death Jesus did not ascend in any way, shape of form to the Father for He said:
Joh 20:17 ". . . Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father."
So Jesus did not, nor did the thief go to paradise the day they died. Not mentally, not physically, not spiritually, not figuratively.
Tony
Fires Left the Forum, so I wouldnt expect an answer Bud.
I hope it wasn't due to me :sigh:
Quote from: Tony N on January 21, 2009, 10:32:53 PM
I hope it wasn't due to me :sigh:
no worries :icon_flower:..
CrimsonCrow, aka, ScarletWren,
I'll try more specific responses when I find time later. These are somewhat involved things that take some time for me to search out. Few challenge me into expressing my understanding in these matters. It takes time to find the Bible references that come to mind.
(The following is partially excerpted from a post elsewhere but is more developed here. I'm answering the "soul-sleep" doctrine that some here believe with some of my present understandings. It is just what comes to mind now.)
.......................................
There is no reason that such words of Scripture as, "The dead know nothing" must be understood to mean there is no consciousness for spirit apart from the body. It is clearly in agreement with the corpse of a man being unresponsive to whatever may be said or done to it. That man knows nothing. Yet his spirit, being elsewhere, may be not in a death state. To say that when dead the whole man is dead is an unwarrented assumption in the light of various passages from God's word. "Strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man" (Ep 3:16) The "inner man" or, "man within" (CLV) is here distinguished form the outer man. Daniel spoke of his spirit in it's sheath of the body (Dan 7:15.) James (2:26) says, "Even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead." One may have a conviction concerning a conscious belief that goes unexpressed in outward behavior, a faith to be questioned whether it can save, so we may have a consciousness as spirit apart from the body. Denied by some who think the spirit never sleeps (cf., Song of Songs 5:2,) the possibility that as we have had periods of that mystery called sleep while incarnate, though it is something God never does, we should admit we may have periods of sleep in our disembodied state until we learn otherwise.
The invasion of Greek mysticism into the developing apostasy of the Church as Institution under Constantine (state funding of religion including Christian "temples" and "priests" that had both never existed for Christianity's previous 300 years) has to this day dichotomized human nature in the self-perception of the common believer, certainly in the west, the scope of my observation. We need to understand the unity of each human. It is not that, "I have a body;" but, My body is also me. If I lay my hand on you, I have touched you. That said as a disclaimer, notice this word: " Your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:23, YLT) This distinguishes the Biblical view of man in the image of God as tripartite. (The history of Institutional Christianity's doctrine early presents another view; but, that is beyond our present consideration.) When Paul speaks of going into the third heaven (2 Co 12) there is a twice stated phrase, "whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth" that indicates Paul believed in "out-of-body" experiences. I can confess the same for a number of experiences. I also can definitely testify to being apart from my body, "in spirit" in other experiences involving my Lord. These things are completely in agreement with what is written. I would draw your attention to how what we study in the words of the prophets are resulting from their undergoing similar things. A word sent from God, or a vision, or a visitation of God or angels, being taken into other realms, all of which are often overlooked as belonging to the normal experience of those who have the Holy Spirit.
The spirit may be considered a kind of body. This is clear from those things said of the Spirit of God, such as assuming a distinct appearance similar to a dove. It has wrongly been called error by some councils to teach that as God has expressed Himself as Son, so also He has expressed Himself as Spirit. What is unknowable as the Father in expression is called Christ. Though the agent of that expression is the Spirit, the Spirit itself has self-consciousness. It is true spiritual substance as the Son is actual physical substance. So, the spirit itself is a kind of embodiment. (With the exception of a resurrection body) it is more durable than the entirety of our present physical realm. That is why a spirit may go through a wall. It is of a higher dimension. The wall is insubstantial to it. Since all will be resurrected "in their own order," all will come out of any abode that might be in death. Scripture knows of five different kinds of death, but, "Death will be abolished" is God's sure word, an inconceivably grand proliferation of life toward which we all are hurtling where all realms will become opened to us.
---your brother, James Rohde
RougeRobin, aka, ScarletWren,
(I don't know how to put a link to "Heaven and Our True Near at Hand Hope" that I wrote a while back. I think it's posted somewhere on tentmaker. I'm copying the latter part of it here because it answers many of the questions you posed. I'm embarrased for not spending more time to at least redevelop it; but, it is so late for me, almost a quarter to 2 am!)
...............................
The common misconception is that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven. Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not. When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.) The apostle Paul (in Philippians 3) described his aim: "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21) Resurrection followed by ascension is actually at the finish of the race we are in.
The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam. Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values. While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of us go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere. Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance. We are ultimately destined to enforce through love this blissful glory in all the universe.
To know whether or not this is the generation to make the transition into a world ruled by the people of God as manifest immortals one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil. When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start. Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, it can be for you or any one of us because "The Time" is in God. The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.
At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city. I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000. They've already entered in bearing the ark (Jesus) like the priests who were 2,000 cubits (years) ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan. They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on. It's about time now to enter on in.
As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age. It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom, as is written, "He will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, into salvation, through faith." (cf., Hb 9:27-28) It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, not even what is popularly referred to as the church. It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest. "Whenever Christ, our Life, should be manifested, then you also shall be manifested together with Him in glory." (Col 3:4) Christ, hidden in us, His "Revelation...to show to His slaves...," (Rv 1:1) is from whence He dwells.
It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for. When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit. The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos. Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another. Where are there even two in agreement? and rather than humble earnest hunger, beseeching the Source, many continue assuming sufficient what has been passed down to them by others. It is not about cobbling together a chain of Bible verses with explanations but entering into The Glory. Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to know of those ascending or to speak authoritatively on just what is transpiring in the heavenlies. When it is important enough or your "manchild" (Rev 12) is in the birth canal, it will be virtually impossible to think about or do anything else.
---Your brother, James Rohde
Hi REformer,
It's late here too, almost midnight. Thanks for posting that though. I'll read it again when I'm not so tired. I am not sure if I'll grasp all of it. Some I understood.
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
--John 1
If this was an expectation for Nathanael 2000 years ago, surely it should be an expectation of ours.
Those who have seen this or done it, should tell us more, because we need to have our expectations set higher.
That means you, Reformer!
As for me, I watch and wait, expecting--that word that is used so exclusively for pregnant women is meant for all of us. :HeartThrob:
Wow, 5,555 views for this thread.
I wonder what the spiritual connotations to that number is? :laughing7:
Yeah, it feels like 5500 of them are how many times I've clicked on this thing myself . . .what a whirlwind it's been. And I think I've read every one of them!!! The posts . . you can't read the readers . . .that would be dmub.
When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.
Quote from: jabcat on January 23, 2009, 09:31:43 AM
When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.
I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!
Quote from: Tony N on January 23, 2009, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 23, 2009, 09:31:43 AM
When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.
I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!
No worries T, weve past the 1000 :icon_king:
Quote from: Taffy on January 23, 2009, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 23, 2009, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 23, 2009, 09:31:43 AM
When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.
I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!
No worries T, weve past the 1000 :icon_king:
:myahoo: ... thanks mate, I needed a good laugh today.
And, that was worth more than a thousand words! :LH:
Quote from: peacemaker on January 23, 2009, 09:59:22 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 23, 2009, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 23, 2009, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 23, 2009, 09:31:43 AM
When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.
I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!
No worries T, weve past the 1000 :icon_king:
:myahoo: ... thanks mate, I needed a good laugh today.
And, that was worth more than a thousand words! :LH:
Always good to hear From you PM :icon_flower:
Sure hope your wife is improving some Bud, Thinking of yas :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 22, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
RougeRobin, aka, ScarletWren,
(I don't know how to put a link to "Heaven and Our True Near at Hand Hope" that I wrote a while back. I think it's posted somewhere on tentmaker. I'm copying the latter part of it here because it answers many of the questions you posed. I'm embarrased for not spending more time to at least redevelop it; but, it is so late for me, almost a quarter to 2 am!)
...............................
The common misconception is that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven. Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not. When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.) The apostle Paul (in Philippians 3) described his aim: "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21) Resurrection followed by ascension is actually at the finish of the race we are in.
The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam. Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values. While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of us go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere. Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance. We are ultimately destined to enforce through love this blissful glory in all the universe.
To know whether or not this is the generation to make the transition into a world ruled by the people of God as manifest immortals one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil. When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start. Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, it can be for you or any one of us because "The Time" is in God. The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.
At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city. I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000. They've already entered in bearing the ark (Jesus) like the priests who were 2,000 cubits (years) ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan. They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on. It's about time now to enter on in.
As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age. It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom, as is written, "He will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, into salvation, through faith." (cf., Hb 9:27-28) It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, not even what is popularly referred to as the church. It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest. "Whenever Christ, our Life, should be manifested, then you also shall be manifested together with Him in glory." (Col 3:4) Christ, hidden in us, His "Revelation...to show to His slaves...," (Rv 1:1) is from whence He dwells.
It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for. When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit. The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos. Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another. Where are there even two in agreement? and rather than humble earnest hunger, beseeching the Source, many continue assuming sufficient what has been passed down to them by others. It is not about cobbling together a chain of Bible verses with explanations but entering into The Glory. Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to know of those ascending or to speak authoritatively on just what is transpiring in the heavenlies. When it is important enough or your "manchild" (Rev 12) is in the birth canal, it will be virtually impossible to think about or do anything else.
---Your brother, James Rohde
James, that's good food for chewin on. I too will read it again and hope to be woke up just a bit more.....maybe a lot more.
Something has happened within me lately. I really feel as if we have come from the God, the Spiritual. I mean I really feel it. I think to myself that this is not my home (the physical), I'm a just a passing through. I 'see' myself kind of being in that realm and looking at my life here in this physical. What this does for me is it helps me to communicate to my neighbor. To say "Hey, we're close to going home, so close. Let's wipe the dust off of ourselves and start pulling up the tent stakes. This was a nice visit, not always, but it's time to call it a day and vamoose."
I can't really explain it but the spiritual seems more real to me. Like you said, Scripture is not a volume of words to argue over or even to swoon over, they are words from our real home, the spiritual, waking us up. We were there, we are there, we are going there.
I can't seem to nail what I really want to say.
cp
:cloud9: I think you nailed it just fine CP. :thumbsup:
Thanks Card but Nathan has a good thread going. Living in the Lightening Realm. He is really taking off with some good thoughts. I am moving so fast that you probably chimed in already there and I missed you but unlikely as your words always make me stop think.
cp
Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum. I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual. Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.
I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence. I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body. I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions. I am comfortable with the thought of time. L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts. I don't even want to think of not living in time. I don't want everything to be happening at once. I want to hear each note progression in music. One after the other, and that to me requires time. One moment after another. what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc. I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God. I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc. Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever. I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time. Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.
I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles. And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.
I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere. Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.
Please understand in our quest for maturity in Christ, we may discard things that could bring pause to others, which isn't saying it's right or wrong, but it's okay to see that you are not where others are . . .very seldom are we all in the same room at the same time.
this is the Father's house where there is an endless number of rooms of his nature and glory. We're always in different rooms of understanding, but we're still in the same house. The reason I personally emphasize the spirit so strongly is because I see Scripture instructing us to do so.
And also understand that as great as this natural realm is to your mind . . .the spirit realm is fathoms greater than the natural. You think the universe in all it's glory is something . . .just think that in the spirit, God created that to, and "that" was our origin in the beginning before the fall . . .the garden is a place where Adam and Eve had no intentions of leaving . . .they had to be driven from it. And it's a place that we instinctively desire to return to.
I think much of your wrestling is how all our limited minds percieve heaven to be. We can't imagine anything being more splendorous than this created earth we live on now. But I wonder if you're not forgetting, this earth, in it's current state right now . . .it is still under the curse of sin. There are still usless weeds choking out precious wheat. There are still poison ivy vines that slowly kill the trees they invaded. Animals are still killing animals for survival . . .this earth is not our home . . .truly . . .there is even a better place for us than this.
That's why spiritual things are so hard to imagine, all our mind knows and has known, is this finite realm we live in. There are no images that we can come up with that truly capture what the spirit realm is really like. But I for one beleive that this earth . .in all it's greatness and mystery . . is still a hut when compared to what God has prepared for us in the invisible realm . . .the song that has made so much money and broken so many Christian song charts and records "I can only imagine . . ." is a great song .but it's not exactly true . . .I can't imagine. My mind just can't comprehend the greatness of God in his creative majesty.
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 28, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum. I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual. Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.
I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence. I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body. I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions. I am comfortable with the thought of time. L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts. I don't even want to think of not living in time. I don't want everything to be happening at once. I want to hear each note progression in music. One after the other, and that to me requires time. One moment after another. what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc. I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God. I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc. Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever. I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time. Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.
I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles. And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.
I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere. Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.
HI SW. Not everyone sees everything the same, we're not all in the same place...God has you where He wants you, and tomorrow you'll be where He wants you, and the next day....
Anyway, maybe just let slide what's not for you right now, and focus more on other things that are more fruitful for you at the time. That's what I tend to do...I basically have been very little involved in the real discussion of this whole thread, just not my main focus to "struggle with" right now. I take pieces of it here and there, it's good and helpful, but I'm not "up to my eyeballs in it" right now. On the other hand, other things have stimulated my interest, so I've contributed. You have a lot to offer, but it may not be on every thread...but the forum as a whole...you know, the "many members" thing, each having our own function. I'd hate for you to leave, but wherever God leads you will be right :thumbsup:.
God's blessing, James.
:cloud9: The reason I emphasize the realm of spiritual understanding, is because I CAN'T DO OTHERWISE. This is the way He has brought me along, some 23 plus years now, and it's like an invisible "wall" almost is blocking my thinking in natural literal understanding of things.
And the "odd" thing is, that now when a natural parallel comes forth, it is not from looking at the natural first, but rather from having the spiritual revealed first, and then having that aha! moment over seeing the natural witness. It is like somewhere along the way, the revelation of things reversed without any conscious awareness of it on my part. There is a hidden principle in this, but I don't know what it is yet.
We are all a work in progress, there is no right or wrong as there are many rooms to be in, He is the master builder, and He is bringing all into His presence as He sees fit. Blessings.....
Yo SW :icon_flower:
I come to understand in types and shadows, those things which literally shine forth a spiritual understanding.
No one dismisses the Literal....well not I anyway :icon_flower:
2Cr 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
2Cr 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
First the Natural\literal which is the shadow of the reality to follow....so talking Spiritual things for me is where its AT.
Tis how I come to see such things .... :icon_flower:
BUT Please ,dont feel threatened by such talk ,,we are EACH where we are AT..... :icon_flower:
cos for sure when I first heard a few folk talk such a way...MAN, were they way out there..MYSTICS, speaking things which didnt ADD up. :icon_flower:..Freaks for sure :icon_flower:
Blessings
T
Hi T, glad to see ya back posting.
Do you think that the "spiritual" awakening that is happening in you, me and others; is going on even with those who don't know or agree with the "bible story", or who don't "claim/believe in Christ's death, burial, resurrection". Is "Christ consciousness" awakening in many, despite beliefs??
For example, there is a lot of "new age guru's" out there or "spiritual teachers" that are teaching a death to the "ego", a purfication by fire, and a release of the inner man, (joy, peace, love, light). Even Eckart Tolle's new book is a book of a "new heaven and earth", based on becoming aware of "Christ" who he calls "consciousness/presence", and the release of love, peace, joy.
what ya think??
I read this article the other day, and thot it was interesting. Not sure I agree, but contemplating.
"I don't care who you are - you are destined to experience eschatology, for it was God's purpose to give himself to you and God is able to fulfill his purpose. He created you to radiate his glory and be the express image of his person.
You cannot stop God from fulfilling his purpose, but you will not arrive at that moment called eschatology until you have played all the parts - be they good, bad, or indifferent. So I say, envy no one. It doesn't matter what they have done, are doing, or will do; do not envy or pity anyone, for you have either already played that part, or you will.
The Bible records every conceivable evil in the world that man could do to man and describes it openly. And you have played, or will play, every part before the last days come upon you, and in that day, events of scripture will unfold in you in a dramatic form imaginable. You will be possessed and find yourself the center of the entire Bible. As scripture reveals itself in you, you will discover from experience that you are the Lord Jesus Christ. And when you share your experience with others, they will question how a little nonentity who suffers and has nothing the world he would brag about could dare to make this bold assumption. They will think of you as blaspheming God, just as they accused him, claiming he blasphemed by stating, I and my Father are one, that when you see me you have seen the Father; that if you really knew me, you would know my Father also, but you know neither me nor my Father, for my Father is playing the part that I am.
And then one night in vision, I fulfilled the 42nd Psalm. That night, in vision I found myself leading an enormous crowd in gay procession to the house of God as a voice rang out: "And God walks with them." A woman at my side asked the voice: "If God walks with us, where is he?" and the voice replied: "At your side." Turning to her left she looked into my face and, laughing hysterically said, "What, Neville is God?" and the voice replied, "Yes, in the act of waking." Then the voice spoke in the depths of my soul, saying: "I laid myself down within you to sleep and as I slept I dreamed a dream. I dreamed..." and, knowing exactly what he was going to say, I became so excited I actually nailed myself upon this body in the same manner tradition tells us he was nailed upon the cross, but it was not a painful experience. Six vortices, each an ecstatic, joyful feeling, hold me here.
Now I know that no man took (or takes) my life, for I lay it down myself. I know I have the power to lay it down and the power to take it up again; for I, God the Father, deliberately took upon myself this limitation upon myself. When I heard the voice that night say: "I laid myself down within you to sleep, and as I slept I dreamed a dream," I knew he was telling me that he was I and when the dream is over and he awakes I would be He, radiating His glory and bearing the express image of His person.
This is not for me alone, but for all. Listen to the words: "The glory that thou gavest me I would give to them that they may be one even as we are one." I have told you of the glory that is now mine, thereby giving you the glory that we may be one. I in you and thou in me, that we may be made perfectly one. I have made God's name known to you and I will make it known that the love by which I am loved may be in you. Not less love, but the same love, so that the whole may become one love!
In the end everyone will experience the whole Bible and tell it as I am telling it now. A few will believe but the majority will not. That's all right, for all of the tribulations of human experience must be fulfilled, with no omissions. Today you may be one of the so-called beautiful people, possessing inherited wealth. You may be one of the ten best dressed women and spend a quarter of a million dollars on clothes to create the part you are playing. But tomorrow, even if you haven't played it, you may play the part of a scrub woman, for every part must be played before you can arrive at eschatology.
Having played every part as recorded in scripture, when I aw a man betray me I knew I had played the part of the betrayer, for I have fulfilled scripture.
Everyone must play it all, if not on this stage, then on another, for when you leave this set on the stage of life, although you are no longer seen by the audience here, you are not dead, but have entered another stage in the great theater called life, to continue the work that is still to be done in you, until all of the parts in the play have been played.
Eschatology is not the end of the earth, but the end of human history and the beginning of eternal salvation. It is the abrupt cleavage between this world and the transcendental world of God. It is your entrance into an entirely different world where you radiate God's glory which you create by your very being, for you are now the Father. God the Father created you to radiate his glory and bear the express image of His person in that world. I cannot describe it because there are no images on earth to aid me. Life there is entirely different from this one, for there you are not some little pygmy, but God Himself, completely equipped to do it all!
So if you condemn someone, the chances are you have not played the part he is playing, but will play it tomorrow, for condemnation simply moves you closer to the fulfillment of what you have condemned. Let no one judge you and don't judge another, for you know too much now. It is my hope you have played all the parts and that tonight your eschatology will come. Sacred history has been brought to its climax, and fulfilled in Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ in you is the one who does it.
Addressing God as, "O righteous Father", he [John] said: "I in them and thou in me." Now, if God the Father is in me, and I am in you, is He not in you also? Yes, God the Father is in you and Christ, his God's creative power, is in you as the pattern man who must fulfill scripture. The plan was made for, and erupts in Christ - the Christ in you. He is your hope of glory, for you are the one spoken of as Abraham.
In the state called Abraham the promise was made that you would have a child. So what part are you playing then the child appears? Abraham looked up to see three men standing before him. He thought they were messengers of the Lord for he did not realize he was the Lord himself. It is said he did not see them approaching they came so suddenly. And when the prophecy is fulfilled your attention is diverted for a few seconds by an unearthly wind, and when you look back those that you did not see approaching are sitting where your body was, for your body is now gone. The body has been removed because you only wore it for a little while, but while you wore it something happened in you.
Now a lady wrote this past week, saying: "In my dream I was shoveling dirt. Although it seemed as though I was digging in the earth, I knew I was digging in my own brain." That's a lovely vision and a true one. Everything takes place in the brain - the earth, for man is made up of the dust of the earth, so her vision was perfect. She was digging in her own brain. For she is on the verge, although I cannot tell her the day or the hour, for only the Father in her knows.
If you will read the Book of John - which differs somewhat from the synoptics, you will discover that John pinpoints the day the vision will occur, stating that the birth, followed by the resurrection, will take place between 6:00 P.M. on Sunday and 6:00 P.M. on Monday. That is when it happened in me. I went to bed on Sunday evening about 11:00 P.M. and awoke, was born from above, and resurrected at 4:00 A.M. on Monday morning. You will follow the same pattern. Having entered the world before the coming of Jehovah, you entered the world from B.C. and when it happens your world turns into the year of the Lord, A.D.
The Old Testament is crowded with eschatology - the coming of Jehovah. He came but was not recognized because it was not what people expected. But He is coming in your world and you are going to fulfill scripture. When you realize you are the central character of the Bible, you are going to feel so wonderful. I cannot tell you the thrill that is in store for you when you experience everything written there. Even though it has happened to others, scripture is all about you, because in the end there is no other. In that day, you will know that I dwell in them and thou in me, and we, all gathered together are perfect in that one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one God and Father of all.
You will not have a different son from the speaker. We have the same son. When I tell this to priests, rabbis and ministers, they throw up their hands in holy horror and claim I have taken all of their religion from them. What they have been taught is true on a certain level of awareness, but I am speaking from experience. I have experienced scripture. I know it is true, but it is not what the world teaches.
Jesus Christ is God the Father and Jesus Christ is in you. One day you will find out that you are God the father and because you are you will produce a son to bear witness to that fact. Now no one knows who God the Father is, except his son who comes into your world to reveal you to yourself. And when he appears you don't have to ask him who he is; the minute you see him you know exactly who he is and he knows who you are. There is no uncertainty as to this relationship. To know that you are God the Father, yet while you remain here in the world of Caesar you will continue to wear the little garment that suffers, as all garments do. But after you have experienced eschatology and leave this little garment behind, you will no longer be restored to life, for you will have come to the end of human history.
from here:
http://realneville.com/txt/eschatology.htm
Quote from: Zeek on January 28, 2009, 11:58:24 PM
Hi T, glad to see ya back posting.
Do you think that the "spiritual" awakening that is happening in you, me and others; is going on even with those who don't know or agree with the "bible story", or who don't "claim/believe in Christ's death, burial, resurrection". Is "Christ consciousness" awakening in many, despite beliefs??
For example, there is a lot of "new age guru's" out there or "spiritual teachers" that are teaching a death to the "ego", a purfication by fire, and a release of the inner man, (joy, peace, love, light). Even Eckart Tolle's new book is a book of a "new heaven and earth", based on becoming aware of "Christ" who he calls "consciousness/presence", and the release of love, peace, joy.
what ya think??
Ya Know Bro, ya More aware of what others are writing and Doing than I.... :icon_flower:
Ya mention Gurus , Ok but only in brief, so Im getting a Picture , BUT life is THROUGH but ONE, for me ,theres no getting away from that, but MAYBE, ya dindt mention that was the premise they spoke from... :dontknow:..beliefs? would that be NOT knowing who Christ Is...? expound some bro, as I know ya mentioned something similar before :icon_flower:..where do such folk base this foundation?
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 28, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum. I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual. Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.
I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence. I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body. I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions. I am comfortable with the thought of time. L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts. I don't even want to think of not living in time. I don't want everything to be happening at once. I want to hear each note progression in music. One after the other, and that to me requires time. One moment after another. what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc. I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God. I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc. Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever. I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time. Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.
I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles. And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.
I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere. Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.
Hi,
i've hung out with those here who see things in the "spiritual" or what i would better describe as an "inner" application for awhile. I would for so long say, "but wait, Paul was talking about two groups of people; an us versus them; and yet you are applying it inward, saying an "us and a them" in me; a "tare and a wheat" in one person. That's not how Paul described it. And yet, something in me would say, "I can see what u guys mean though". It wasn't until for me, by looking at a preterist view was this more clear. Imo, the "us" versus "them" described by Jesus, and Paul etc. was real, it was a true application; and it was worked out "in that generation".
So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"? And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense. It is now being "fulfilled" in ME. The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.
don't know if this makes sense, but just wanted to share; if i take a "futuristic" view point, in that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled (as in L Ray teaches), I have a hard time agreeing with the "inner" application.
Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.
But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.
Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?
Did ALL those things occur? No.
And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."
All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.
I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?
Quote from: Tony N on January 29, 2009, 04:38:33 PM
Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.
But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.
Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?
Did ALL those things occur? No.
And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."
All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.
I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?
Thanks Tony,
Quite a journey we are all on, and i am so thankful that LOVE is being revealed more and more in my heart.
blessings
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
The power of sin is the law. Is it the law system that you see still growing side by side? or what is the other system?
Zeek, you wrote....
So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"? And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense. It is now being "fulfilled" in ME. The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.
This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.
I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 29, 2009, 05:03:36 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"? And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense. It is now being "fulfilled" in ME. The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.
This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.
I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.
cp
But, I could say the same thing about the world. If the Bible isn't explaining to me what is going on in the world right now, then it is irrelevant to me. If I can't look at the world and say, the Bible explains this--then it is meaningless to me, and I cannot be comforted that God is in control--because to my carnal eyes, things do not look very good.
Quote from: claypot on January 29, 2009, 05:03:36 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"? And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense. It is now being "fulfilled" in ME. The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.
This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.
I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.
cp
Well, in the first century, Paul was imo, "spiritual" not "natural" as the Spirit was in him; yet I believe at that time he was comparing himself (mind of Christ) to those stuck in the law system (carnal mind). He saw himself as "Isaac" (Galatians 4) not "Ishmael", but saw "Ishmaels" out there in the world, who would undergo destruction soon.
So, I think there is a huge leap made to apply all scripture "inward" if we are in the same "age" as Paul.
I'm not good at explaining this, hope makes sense.
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi all,
Thanks for the encouragement. I won't leave, but I will share less I think.
Nathan, the curse WILL be removed from this earth and universe and it will be even more amazing to explore its wonders.
I disagree that we are RETURNING to the spirit realm. First the natural, THEN the spiritual (with the exception of The Father out of whom is everything and Christ, who is the Word) I don't see that OUR spirit was breathed into the man. God's spirit was the animating force to make Adam a living soul. That is the spirit that returns to God at our physical death. As I see it, the first part of the creation account was prophetical. How could Adam have been given dominion over the earth when he was virtually an infant with no knowledge of good and evil? And AFTER he gained that knowledge, well we've seen how much our 'dominion' is GOOD for the earth, especially the human race and what exactly do we have dominion over? Animals? well to a minor extent perhaps, weather? each other? I don't see it. When we are complete in Him, in our immortal bodies, THEN we will have the dominion prophesied in the first account. THEN we will be finished in HIS image. HE IS creating man now, not recreating Him. That's how I see this.
I'm not leaving at this time. You guys are all great. I see a fusion of the two, physical and spiritual, and it will be awesome.
Quote from: Tony N on January 29, 2009, 04:38:33 PM
Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.
But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.
Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?
Did ALL those things occur? No.
And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."
All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.
I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {with...: or, with a trumpet, and a great voice} 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. {it: or, he} 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.Sun darkened moon no light stars falling = man in carnal condition.
Son of man coming = God waking people up.
When you see.... it is near = People who experience salvation (a waking up).
This generation will not pass until all fullfilled = this work will not be stopped until man is made in the image of God.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud.
cp
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 29, 2009, 05:09:11 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for the encouragement. I won't leave, but I will share less I think.
Nathan, the curse WILL be removed from this earth and universe and it will be even more amazing to explore its wonders.
I disagree that we are RETURNING to the spirit realm. First the natural, THEN the spiritual (with the exception of The Father out of whom is everything and Christ, who is the Word) I don't see that OUR spirit was breathed into the man. God's spirit was the animating force to make Adam a living soul. That is the spirit that returns to God at our physical death. As I see it, the first part of the creation account was prophetical. How could Adam have been given dominion over the earth when he was virtually an infant with no knowledge of good and evil? And AFTER he gained that knowledge, well we've seen how much our 'dominion' is GOOD for the earth, especially the human race and what exactly do we have dominion over? Animals? well to a minor extent perhaps, weather? each other? I don't see it. When we are complete in Him, in our immortal bodies, THEN we will have the dominion prophesied in the first account. THEN we will be finished in HIS image. HE IS creating man now, not recreating Him. That's how I see this.
I'm not leaving at this time. You guys are all great. I see a fusion of the two, physical and spiritual, and it will be awesome.
The way I see it, Scarletwren, is that the spiritual shows us the truth about the natural realm. There is a truth that we have lost in the fall from the garden of God. He is restoring us to that truth.
So if I know nothing about quantum mechanics, for instance, or how to manipulate the reality of that world, that does not mean that it does not exist. It does exist outside of my awareness. But, once I become aware of it, then what I thought was the natural takes on a whole new meaning for me, with a lot more depth.
Anyway, I agree with what you say pretty much. He didn't mess up when he gave us the physical beauty of this world--he knows what we like, and he's not going to take it away--just give it to us in more abundance. The meek will inherit the earth.
We do have dominion now (not over each other--that should never be), we just don't know how to use it properly yet, because of the deception.
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
I was just searching for that missing generation. It just came to my attention. And, I was trying to count in various places, but then I gave up. What is it? lol
Quote from: ZeekHi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
I go back and forth on that. Paul likens himself almost to a midwife--one who helps others give birth. This would put him in the category of angel--ministering to those who shall be heirs of salvation [Heb 1]. It's almost as if the body won't fully manifest until every part (person) is present--and we are waiting for that.
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 29, 2009, 05:03:36 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"? And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense. It is now being "fulfilled" in ME. The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.
This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.
I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.
cp
But, I could say the same thing about the world. If the Bible isn't explaining to me what is going on in the world right now, then it is irrelevant to me. If I can't look at the world and say, the Bible explains this--then it is meaningless to me, and I cannot be comforted that God is in control--because to my carnal eyes, things do not look very good.
Molly you also just wrote...
The way I see it, Scarletwren, is that the spiritual shows us the truth about the natural realm.I see what you are saying I think and I would agree. I never thought of that, that the spiritual helps us make sense of the physical. I guess I see people so naturally saturated with the physical that they don't need help to see it but those that 'see' the spiritual, the real home of God Himself, seem much more rare.
Also what is going on in the world right now does affect me for sure but to tell you the truth even world events don't much interest me until they become much more intimate with me. Until a enemy soldier walks up to my house and starts causing trouble I feel kind of removed from what the newpapers say. But when the enemy comes into my household then the major relevance sets in.
cp
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 05:18:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
I was just searching for that missing generation. It just came to my attention. And, I was trying to count in various places, but then I gave up. What is it? lol
Tis the 42nd Generation....tis what it is :icon_flower:
read this yrs back...BB makes some very good( IN WILLIE H, not Narnian) Notations :icon_flower:
http://www.freewebs.com/billmcmurdo/42ndgeneration.htm :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:
so do you think there was an "us versus them" in the time of Paul?
and if so, do you still see an us versus them today??
I believe Paul definitely preached an us versus them, and it being a fearful thing to fall away. An upcoming destruction upon those who denied Christ.
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:41:14 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:
so do you think there was an "us versus them" in the time of Paul?
and if so, do you still see an us versus them today??
I believe Paul definitely preached an us versus them, and it being a fearful thing to fall away. An upcoming destruction upon those who denied Christ.
well again Yes Z, Flesh V Spirit, Law V Grace and Truth . ,...
Those formative early yrs differ somewhat today, But Law V Grace Truth still remains, that for some ,they still remain behind the veil. :icon_flower:
Zeek, this may not be much of a surprise to some, but I am totally in the same place in realizing I to am a dimensionalist. The coolest thing is . . . as we mature more into this arena, the more things fit into place. It's so much easier now to see how things apply internally rather than trying to identify with all of the laboring minds that constantly are searching for puzzle pieces that fit their theories.
I see us as eternal spirit beings living in temporary bodies in a temporary realm. So it just doesn't make any sense to embrace the literal applications to the spiritual life being presented in Scripture when the natural realm isn't going to last long anyway. It's not that we denounce the physical or literal relevance, it's just that Scripture means what it says when it states flesh profiteth nothing. There's no benefit to embracing something that isn't eternal to begin with.
the mind lives on proof . . .the spirit lives on faith . .these two arenas are always at odds with each other. The physical can distract you from your spiritual dominion. I also believe that there is a time coming when the natural things will "seem" to be able to line up with Scripture pertaining to people claiming "this is that" when they look at the natural events happening around them. But God is not in them . . . we are led by the sound of his voice, not by the current events happening around us.
I really think God is calling the church "into" the spirit realm so that even though things happening around us will bring alarm to many in the church, those who have become accustom to hearing the "sound" of His voice will not be shaken or dismayed at the events yet to come.
But yeah, I'm with you bro, the things that go inwardly are the things that bring life to others outwardly. If they reject it, that's between them and God. No condemnation. But be encouraged my friend, you've tapped into something that is going to be a big part of the identity of the bride. She's going to be much more effecient at hearing, which gives her the ability to purify her seeing. I don't look around me and see death . . .I see the rolling thunderhead on the horizon and rain coming to the dry parched church that has been trying to sell sand as water.
Quoteso do you think there was an "us versus them" in the time of Paul?
and if so, do you still see an us versus them today??
I believe Paul definitely preached an us versus them, and it being a fearful thing to fall away. An upcoming destruction upon those who denied Christ.
There has to be some kind of us versus them to be a war--and we are told we are in a spiritual warfare. It is not against flesh and blood, as is most warfare carried out by those deceived, it is spirit verus spirit.
So make sense of that for me, when you look at this world. There are spiritual forces at work doing evil in high places.
But if we are one body and one Spirit, then we are not warring with ourselves.
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 05:48:48 PM
Zeek, this may not be much of a surprise to some, but I am totally in the same place in realizing I to am a dimensionalist. The coolest thing is . . . as we mature more into this arena, the more things fit into place. It's so much easier now to see how things apply internally rather than trying to identify with all of the laboring minds that constantly are searching for puzzle pieces that fit their theories.
I see us as eternal spirit beings living in temporary bodies in a temporary realm. So it just doesn't make any sense to embrace the literal applications to the spiritual life being presented in Scripture when the natural realm isn't going to last long anyway. It's not that we denounce the physical or literal relevance, it's just that Scripture means what it says when it states flesh profiteth nothing. There's no benefit to embracing something that isn't eternal to begin with.
the mind lives on proof . . .the spirit lives on faith . .these two arenas are always at odds with each other. The physical can distract you from your spiritual dominion. I also believe that there is a time coming when the natural things will "seem" to be able to line up with Scripture pertaining to people claiming "this is that" when they look at the natural events happening around them. But God is not in them . . . we are led by the sound of his voice, not by the current events happening around us.
I really think God is calling the church "into" the spirit realm so that even though things happening around us will bring alarm to many in the church, those who have become accustom to hearing the "sound" of His voice will not be shaken or dismayed at the events yet to come.
But yeah, I'm with you bro, the things that go inwardly are the things that bring life to others outwardly. If they reject it, that's between them and God. No condemnation. But be encouraged my friend, you've tapped into something that is going to be a big part of the identity of the bride. She's going to be much more effecient at hearing, which gives her the ability to purify her seeing. I don't look around me and see death . . .I see the rolling thunderhead on the horizon and rain coming to the dry parched church that has been trying to sell sand as water.
Man Nathan you brought tears to my eyes and I am not an emotional person! Now quit it!
Just kidding, don't quit, go like the wind my friend.
cp
Okay, Molly you mention warring . . .if you are in Ephesians 6, then how can you be also in Hebrews 4? One is about spiritual warfare, the other is about spiritual rest.
I see it as spiritual maturity. In my youth, I warred against powers and even flesh and blood . . .but as I mature, the time comes where the weapons of warfare are to be changed into plowshares . . . Scripture is written literally to infants . . . they were spiritual children . . .they thought as a child, they spoke as a child . .. but there comes a time when we're supposed to mature out of that childish thinking.
To embrace the literal application, is to also embrace the baby food intended for spiritual infants. So yeah, Paul was wrestling and warring . . .but he was birthing sons and daughters . .he was raising kids . .that's the realm they were in at the time . . .are we to say that 2000 years later we have not matured past the warring? At what time then does the plowshares come into play?
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: I was about to reply the same thing, then I saw your post..... :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathanthe mind lives on proof . . .the spirit lives on faith . .these two arenas are always at odds with each other.
"At odds with each other"--Only to the deceived mind, Nathan. That's the beauty of it.
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.--Heb 11
Now, were Joshua and Caleb seeing reality when they gave a good report? Of course they were! And the proof of it was in the pudding!
20So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. --Josh 6
So when Paul tells the Romans that the mind is always at emnity against God . . .that was a lie?
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:46:49 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:41:14 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 29, 2009, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Why is the only choice a past and a future one?
Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?
If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.
Paul told us it was starting in his time. We know it is going on now. And we know it will come to an end.
Doesn't that make more sense?
And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.
gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?
wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:
so do you think there was an "us versus them" in the time of Paul?
and if so, do you still see an us versus them today??
I believe Paul definitely preached an us versus them, and it being a fearful thing to fall away. An upcoming destruction upon those who denied Christ.
well again Yes Z, Flesh V Spirit, Law V Grace and Truth . ,...
Those formative early yrs differ somewhat today, But Law V Grace Truth still remains, that for some ,they still remain behind the veil. :icon_flower:
Well i totally get what u are saying, i'm just baffled by the incredible love, joy and peace I see among friends who don't believe in Christ. I'm baffled by the love I see in those who are willing to be vulnerable, to open up and be "naked", yet are not "believers".
I'm not convinced there are those fully veiled anymore, but that there are degrees of "light shining through".
I love you T, and appreciate your friendship and patience with me.
Blessings to all here.
Z
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:05:09 PM
So when Paul tells the Romans that the mind is always at emnity against God . . .that was a lie?
The mind will always be at enmity with God UNTIL it humbly acknowledges its place in accordance with the spirit.
cp
But will that "until" come while we are yet in these bodies of flesh?
Quote from: NathanOkay, Molly you mention warring . . .if you are in Ephesians 6, then how can you be also in Hebrews 4? One is about spiritual warfare, the other is about spiritual rest.
Because I think our 'job' right now is to stand and let him do all the work. Not stand aside, but to stand.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. --Heb 4
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all,
to stand. --Eph 6
17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.--Josh 3
QuoteWell i totally get what u are saying, i'm just baffled by the incredible love, joy and peace I see among friends who don't believe in Christ. I'm baffled by the love I see in those who are willing to be vulnerable, to open up and be "naked", yet are not "believers".
I'm not convinced there are those fully veiled anymore, but that there are degrees of "light shining through".
I love you T, and appreciate your friendship and patience with me.
Blessings to all here.
Z
You must Know some real nice folk Bro, Im afraid I dont see that type of love in Folk I seem to meet in the world...,just might be me Bro , THE LOVE I SEEM TO SEE is conditional , ie I love you BUT you better love me... or else? along with Little forgiveness UNLESS of course theres something at the end of it.
I always appreciate you and posts bro..we go back aways for sure.... :HeartThrob:
Blessings :icon_flower:
G
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: NathanOkay, Molly you mention warring . . .if you are in Ephesians 6, then how can you be also in Hebrews 4? One is about spiritual warfare, the other is about spiritual rest.
Because I think our 'job' right now is to stand and let him do all the work. Not stand aside, but to stand.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
--Heb 4
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
--Eph 6
17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
--Josh 3
I don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:05:09 PM
So when Paul tells the Romans that the mind is always at emnity against God . . .that was a lie?
The 'carnal mind' is at enmity with God. -- The 'mind of the flesh,' as it were.
Therefore, be not double minded.
James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
QuoteI don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
Those BORN from ABOVE, then the Battle has been won , the battle remains for the Child\babe who are swayed by every WIND of Doctrine ( Primerilly law) holding to the ordinances of OLD.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 05:48:48 PM
But be encouraged my friend, you've tapped into something that is going to be a big part of the identity of the bride.
thanks Nathan for the encouragment
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:11:46 PM
But will that "until" come while we are yet in these bodies of flesh?
The 'until' comes as we are changed from natural to spiritual. I see people as in a state of flux, always.
cp
Quote from: ZeekWell i totally get what u are saying, i'm just baffled by the incredible love, joy and peace I see among friends who don't believe in Christ. I'm baffled by the love I see in those who are willing to be vulnerable, to open up and be "naked", yet are not "believers".
I'm not convinced there are those fully veiled anymore, but that there are degrees of "light shining through".
I love you T, and appreciate your friendship and patience with me.
Blessings to all here.
Z
I sure hope so. That means we are here--
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 06:22:29 PM
QuoteI don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
Those BORN from ABOVE, then the Battle has been won , the battle remains for the Child\babe who are swayed by every WIND of Doctrine ( Primerilly law) holding to the ordinances of OLD.
:icon_flower:
BINGO!!! :ty: :Urock: :first:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 29, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.
IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: I was about to reply the same thing, then I saw your post..... :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
Hi C, :icon_flower:
This Thread is again moving at pace and I missed you..Its Good to see ya Posting , as I KNOW you too are still ailing
badly with your Lungs ( so Guys, if read this along the way in this thread..Please remember Card, her ilness is still very much on going :sigh: )
:icon_flower:
Quote from: NathanI don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
The standing is the warring. Or would you rather turn and run in the face of the enemy?
Revelation? Sounds like a war to me.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
--Rev 19
Sorry to hear about that Card . . can't tell by your posts . .. the way you sing in them it would appear that your lungs are in perfect order to me!! :boyheart:
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 06:32:24 PM
Quote from: NathanI don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
The standing is the warring. Or would you rather turn and run in the face of the enemy?
Revelation? Sounds like a war to me.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
--Rev 19
But the difference is, "I'm" not the one doing the warring. . .the battle belongs to the Lord.
Didn't I just say that a few posts back? lol :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 29, 2009, 06:22:29 PM
QuoteI don't disagree with the standing . . .it's the warring I have issues with. In Revelation, it says we are priests and kings . . are they dressed for battle then?
Those BORN from ABOVE, then the Battle has been won , the battle remains for the Child\babe who are swayed by every WIND of Doctrine ( Primerilly law) holding to the ordinances of OLD.
:icon_flower: BINGO!!! :ty: :Urock: :first:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
hmm, not sure why this is in blue. :icon_flower:
For me there's a big difference between putting on battle armor and standing . . . and entering into the person of rest. Standing is not resting.
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:41:01 PM
For me there's a big difference between putting on battle armor and standing . . . and entering into the person of rest. Standing is not resting.
It is if you are holding the ark on your shoulders.
:cloud9: Thanks Taffy and Nate.........this is something He gave me awhile back but I thought it might help explain what we're all seeing from our different vantage points in the body. The first part pertains to why the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons through Satan. But if you read on, I think you'll see why this is pertinent. Blessings....
:Book: The Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deut. and other books that GOD set up this as a part of the OT covenant curses. So in fact, what they were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by GOD for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God AUTHORIZED it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an EVIL spirit in You, Jesus, OPPOSING what we know by the LAW, is GOD'S judgment.
So Jesus did answer perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what SATAN had done, by SATAN, then SATAN'S kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by GOD, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments. But that He was casting them out by GOD, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part = Christ Jesus, because God's kingdom is NOT divided.
And so, the Pharisees asked Him by whose authority do you do these things, when He healed the man on the SABBATH day. Since John's baptism was a type of being baptized into His death (intended to bring repentance) which was a type of the OT covenant that concluded all under the covenant of death, ie. if you never came up out of that water of the letter of the law that killeth the result would be you'd give up the ghost = drown in the waters of judgment.
Which is why Peter was told (he who had the calling to the Jews/those under the letter of the law) to come out of the boat and walk ABOVE the letter of the law waters below the firmament, and walk in the proceeding Word/breath that comes from the Father's mouth.
So what they were asking Him there again was, by whose authority do you do these things, since we know God has done this for judgment? And His answer there was also perfect in it's understanding. He turned the tables on them, and asked a seemingly unrelated (to us) question.....
"Mt 21:25 - The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, "If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?"
And so, I say to you.......the baptism of John ie. the symbol of the judgments that GOD ordained for those that continue to walk by the letter/water that are AUTHORIZED BY GOD, and is being fulfilled STILL TO THIS DAY by Satan......whence was it? from heaven, or of men?
So the whole NT covenant with it's instructions about resisting the devil and he will flee, ect. are the unfolding of the finished plan of God, which runs SIDE BY SIDE (run the good race) in the framework of TIME, with the first covenant principles that are ONLY abolished with the death of the testator, as the testament is not in effect UNTIL the testator dies. So the first covenant which was made with our flesh concluding all under judgment, stays in effect as long as there is still flesh that needs to die, right along with the second covenant, till all is fulfilled.
Which is why He told John, who didn't want to baptize Him in water, to baptize Him because it is necessary that we fulfill ALL righteousness. And which is why spiritually speaking, we are told not to muzzle an ox (law) with a ass (Spirit), ie walking side by side. He as the covenant that is Spirit, came riding upon an ass, all beast of burden "ox" flesh had died.
Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. The first is not going to disappear, God's Word stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass away of it. Be ye reconciled.
Thanks for sharing that C :cloud9:
:icon_flower:
Wow . . .Cardinal, "that's" a lot of chewing to be sure . . .great post. Feel like I just ate a 7 course meal there!
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 06:41:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:41:01 PM
For me there's a big difference between putting on battle armor and standing . . . and entering into the person of rest. Standing is not resting.
It is if you are holding the ark on your shoulders.
Hey Molly . . .
The carrying of the ark on your shoulders is . .to me . . .a picture of having the mind of Christ . . .my head is removed and the ark, the presence of God, the mind of Christ . .replaces my mind . . . which then leads me back to the place of rest.
Sorry . . but I like rest much more than warfare :cloud9:.
.
Cardinal, this is "hidden manna" ..."hidden" back here in
this thread. Needs to be in a thread of it's own. Enjoyed
your explanation. Blessings.
The Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deut. and other books that GOD set up this as a part of the OT covenant curses. So in fact, what they were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by GOD for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God AUTHORIZED it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an EVIL spirit in You, Jesus, OPPOSING what we know by the LAW, is GOD'S judgment.
So Jesus did answer perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what SATAN had done, by SATAN, then SATAN'S kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by GOD, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments. But that He was casting them out by GOD, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part = Christ Jesus, because God's kingdom is NOT divided.
And so, the Pharisees asked Him by whose authority do you do these things, when He healed the man on the SABBATH day. Since John's baptism was a type of being baptized into His death (intended to bring repentance) which was a type of the OT covenant that concluded all under the covenant of death, ie. if you never came up out of that water of the letter of the law that killeth the result would be you'd give up the ghost = drown in the waters of judgment.
Which is why Peter was told (he who had the calling to the Jews/those under the letter of the law) to come out of the boat and walk ABOVE the letter of the law waters below the firmament, and walk in the proceeding Word/breath that comes from the Father's mouth.
So what they were asking Him there again was, by whose authority do you do these things, since we know God has done this for judgment? And His answer there was also perfect in it's understanding. He turned the tables on them, and asked a seemingly unrelated (to us) question.....
"Mt 21:25 - The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, "If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?"
And so, I say to you.......the baptism of John ie. the symbol of the judgments that GOD ordained for those that continue to walk by the letter/water that are AUTHORIZED BY GOD, and is being fulfilled STILL TO THIS DAY by Satan......whence was it? from heaven, or of men?
So the whole NT covenant with it's instructions about resisting the devil and he will flee, ect. are the unfolding of the finished plan of God, which runs SIDE BY SIDE (run the good race) in the framework of TIME, with the first covenant principles that are ONLY abolished with the death of the testator, as the testament is not in effect UNTIL the testator dies. So the first covenant which was made with our flesh concluding all under judgment, stays in effect as long as there is still flesh that needs to die, right along with the second covenant, till all is fulfilled.
Which is why He told John, who didn't want to baptize Him in water, to baptize Him because it is necessary that we fulfill ALL righteousness. And which is why spiritually speaking, we are told not to muzzle an ox (law) with a ass (Spirit), ie walking side by side. He as the covenant that is Spirit, came riding upon an ass, all beast of burden "ox" flesh had died.
Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. The first is not going to disappear, God's Word stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass away of it. Be ye reconciled.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:57:47 PM by Cardinal »
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 07:43:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 29, 2009, 06:41:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 06:41:01 PM
For me there's a big difference between putting on battle armor and standing . . . and entering into the person of rest. Standing is not resting.
It is if you are holding the ark on your shoulders.
Hey Molly . . .
The carrying of the ark on your shoulders is . .to me . . .a picture of having the mind of Christ . . .my head is removed and the ark, the presence of God, the mind of Christ . .replaces my mind . . . which then leads me back to the place of rest.
Sorry . . but I like rest much more than warfare :cloud9:.
One cannot rest in the midst of warfare?
Maybe with some help...
5And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel;
and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.
11And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. --Exodus 17
:cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nate, Taff and RLV....... :girlheart:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 29, 2009, 11:51:48 PM
:cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nate, Taff and RLV....... :girlheart:
x :cloud9:
Quote from: claypot on January 29, 2009, 05:15:53 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 29, 2009, 04:38:33 PM
Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.
But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.
Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?
Did ALL those things occur? No.
And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."
All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.
I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {with...: or, with a trumpet, and a great voice} 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. {it: or, he} 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Sun darkened moon no light stars falling = man in carnal condition.
Son of man coming = God waking people up.
When you see.... it is near = People who experience salvation (a waking up).
This generation will not pass until all fullfilled = this work will not be stopped until man is made in the image of God.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud.
cp
I think there is a lot more than just that which is to happen that never happened yet. It is an all or nothing thing ya know?
Why in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
Sounds fishy to me.
QuoteWhy in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
cosT..first the Natural as the Shadow..then that which is Spiritual, that which Lays within.....many here keep repeating it but ya dont see it bud..but no matters..love ya man :HeartThrob:
All these views are valid because I am spirit, soul and body existing with a history past, a present inner engagement with God, myself and others in the world, and I have a future. My flesh body is being brought to transfiguration as my soul's salvation is being completed by alignment with my regenerated spirit because of union with God.
Preterist, past literal, and Futurist, future literal, both seem the realm of the outer court or body, like seeing The Song of Songs as the love between a man and a maiden.
Historicist, descriptions of the God's people in the world across history, is more allegorical and similar to holy place or soul, like The Song of Songs Allegorical.
Symbolist, or, Ideal is immanent and now, descriptive of the corporate bride's progress in celestial realities and symbolic of the individuals inner states and process of attaining full salvation, seeming the realm of the holy of holies; like The Song of Songs Devotional, the individuals relationship to God or Psychological, the relationship of the spirit to the soul.
In all these views of Scripture, which are not meant to be exhaustive, only representative, the Word itself is not forgotten but studied and retained. As other positions appear to the seeker, and they too are sifted with the Word and winnowed with the Spirit, Holy Writ is raised higher in our understanding and remembrance. We are not meant to make our various parts to war, one against another, rather we rejoice in the fellowship of the harmonious whole.
At the center,
ruling over all,
the Word,
Who is the Image and Glory of God,
rests
upon the Mercy Throne.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 30, 2009, 07:01:30 AM
All these views are valid because I am spirit, soul and body existing with a history past, a present inner engagement with God, myself and others in the world, and I have a future. My flesh body is being brought to transfiguration as my soul's salvation is being completed by alignment with my regenerated spirit because of union with God.
Preterist, past literal, and Futurist, future literal, both seem the realm of the outer court or body, like seeing The Song of Songs as the love between a man and a maiden.
Historicist, descriptions of the God's people in the world across history, is more allegorical and similar to holy place or soul, like The Song of Songs Allegorical.
Symbolist, or, Ideal is immanent and now, descriptive of the corporate bride's progress in celestial realities and symbolic of the individuals inner states and process of attaining full salvation, seeming the realm of the holy of holies; like The Song of Songs Devotional, the individuals relationship to God or Psychological, the relationship of the spirit to the soul.
In all these views of Scripture, which are not meant to be exhaustive, only representative, the Word itself is not forgotten but studied and retained. As other positions appear to the seeker, and they too are sifted with the Word and winnowed with the Spirit, Holy Writ is raised higher in our understanding and remembrance. We are not meant to make our various parts to war, one against another, rather we rejoice in the fellowship of the harmonious whole.
At the center,
ruling over all,
the Word,
Who is the Image and Glory of God,
rests
upon the Mercy Throne.
Good stuff, Reform. Balance. This is why Scripture is as it is IMO. It could have been written like a recipe for making 'just add water' pancakes, simple, easy instructions to follow and very little if any misinterpretation. But no, Scripture was written with many words by many people over a long period of time with many literary styles which makes for many interpretations.
cp
Quote from: reFORMer on January 30, 2009, 07:01:30 AM
All these views are valid because I am spirit, soul and body existing with a history past, a present inner engagement with God, myself and others in the world, and I have a future. My flesh body is being brought to transfiguration as my soul's salvation is being completed by alignment with my regenerated spirit because of union with God.
:cloud9: Amen..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on January 30, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
QuoteWhy in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
cosT..first the Natural as the Shadow..then that which is Spiritual, that which Lays within.....many here keep repeating it but ya dont see it bud..but no matters..love ya man :HeartThrob:
Hi Taffy,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate what you write. I really do. I'm not meaning to butter you up either.
However, there is a problem with your quote "first the Natural . . . then the Spiritual." The bible, at least no properly translated Bible says "first the Natural then the Spiritual."
I believe you are quoting this:
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
One can say from that translation "first the natural then the spiritual."
But in a better translated version it is:
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the
soulish, thereupon the spiritual." The word "soulish" is psuchikon in Greek. "Natural" is Phusiken and "soulish" is psuchikon. In 1 Cor.15:46 psuchikon is used.
So it is talking about the "soulish" which is Adam, thereupon the spiritual which is Christ according to the context.
So I wouldn't suggest that all the things Christ spoke of which would occur prior to His appearing were soulish.
Man, I hate to be a fly in everyone's ointment here, but someone's gotta do it :winkgrin:
Hi Tony,
Yesterday I was talking to someone who, like you, thinks the temple will be rebuilt, but she didn't know what scriptures were claiming that. So I was wondering if you could list the scriptures that you use to claim that yourself?
As to the natural and spiritual--there are people who are really suffering (and dying) today because of what is being done to them by those in power, and I doubt they would be convinced or comforted that it is really all spiritual.
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2009, 06:15:37 PM
Hi Tony,
Yesterday I was talking to someone who, like you, thinks the temple will be rebuilt, but she didn't know what scriptures were claiming that. So I was wondering if you could list the scriptures that you use to claim that yourself?
As to the natural and spiritual--there are people who are really suffering (and dying) today because of what is being done to them by those in power, and I doubt they would be convinced or comforted that it is really all spiritual.
Greetings Molly,
I totally agree with you on the the suffering of today. I don't believe they are suffering spiritually.
As to the future temple to be rebuilt, it is my understanding that John the revelator was "in spirit in the Lord's Day". In other words, his revelation was about him seeing into the future day of the Lord when he was on the isle of Patmos around 90 some A.D. He was told to measure the temple in that future day.
In his revelation he also saw into the future and saw a messenger measuring the city on the new earth.
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
The temple John was to measure is the temple in which the man of lawlessness will show that he is God and when Christ comes back he will despatch (cut off) that man (2 Thess.2:8).
There was no man actually demonstrating he was God in 70 A.D. There was no man cut off by Christ that was demonstrating my miracles and signs that he was God in 70 A.D.
Therefore the temple must be future.
Also, I can't find it right now but I believe the measurements of Ezekiel's temple is larger than any temple yet to date so there must be another temple to be built.
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 30, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
QuoteWhy in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
cosT..first the Natural as the Shadow..then that which is Spiritual, that which Lays within.....many here keep repeating it but ya dont see it bud..but no matters..love ya man :HeartThrob:
Hi Taffy,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate what you write. I really do. I'm not meaning to butter you up either.
However, there is a problem with your quote "first the Natural . . . then the Spiritual." The bible, at least no properly translated Bible says "first the Natural then the Spiritual."
I believe you are quoting this:
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
One can say from that translation "first the natural then the spiritual."
But in a better translated version it is:
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." The word "soulish" is psuchikon in Greek. "Natural" is Phusiken and "soulish" is psuchikon. In 1 Cor.15:46 psuchikon is used.
So it is talking about the "soulish" which is Adam, thereupon the spiritual which is Christ according to the context.
So I wouldn't suggest that all the things Christ spoke of which would occur prior to His appearing were soulish.
Man, I hate to be a fly in everyone's ointment here, but someone's gotta do it :winkgrin:
Ya Taf . . .what were you thinking!! How could you ever consider that soulish things would be connected to natural reasoning??!! Now everything I believe is going to have to be rewritten! There "are" no spiritual pictures . . . I just made all that stuff up! I'm not a spirit being after all . . .it's all about my flesh! My pain, My suffering . . .how could I ever imagine that there's an invisible source that would give me peace and strength while I went through the visible challenges . . . What a crock! Life is about what I feel, the pain, the misery . . .the global warming . . . we are all doomed for destruction for sure! There's just to much death and evil around us to even think that something as corny as "love" could ever overpower.
Maybe it's best I just throw everything I've posted up till today out and go back to what I used to think and believe. At least "then" it felt like I was "doing" something to further advance the truth.
Who'da thunk it that I have been so wrong in my beliefs . . . faith isn't accepting what can't be understood . . it's not believing in what can't be seen . . .how foolish of me . .it's always been reading the literal words at face value. Understanding the true definitions of every word is the key . . . when everybody learns the true definitions . . .surely that will end all arguments between us!
Forget about growing from other people's experiences in Christ. Forget about being open minded to accept new and deeper things from others on these forums . . . I should be spending more time enforcing what I see to be right and keeping everyone else in line with what I believe . .that's what will make God happiest . . I'm sure of it. :Whistle:
Hey Nathan, nice to see you are finally growing in the spirit!!!
cp
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 30, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
QuoteWhy in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
cosT..first the Natural as the :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: Shadow :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:..then that which is Spiritual, that which Lays within.....many here keep repeating it but ya dont see it bud..but no matters..love ya man :HeartThrob:
Hi Taffy,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate what you write. I really do. I'm not meaning to butter you up either.
However, there is a problem with your quote "first the Natural . . . then the Spiritual." The bible, at least no properly translated Bible says "first the Natural then the Spiritual."
I believe you are quoting this:
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
One can say from that translation "first the natural then the spiritual."
But in a better translated version it is:
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." The word "soulish" is psuchikon in Greek. "Natural" is Phusiken and "soulish" is psuchikon. In 1 Cor.15:46 psuchikon is used.
So it is talking about the "soulish" which is Adam, thereupon the spiritual which is Christ according to the context.
So I wouldn't suggest that all the things Christ spoke of which would occur prior to His appearing were soulish.
Man, I hate to be a fly in everyone's ointment here, but someone's gotta do it :winkgrin:
Tony No worries Bud, :icon_flower:
One does there best to keep things simple to understand ...ill try again
The Natural, Physical .. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
THE SHADOW, :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: ya seemed to have missed it bro, of the Spiritual reality to follow ,
The shadow is a Copy of The REALTITY (Body)..as in the Temple .the very shadow you wait for to be Re built :icon_king:
For we are NOW the TEMPLE made without hands....just an example of what I was saying bro :icon_flower:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 30, 2009, 07:00:56 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 30, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
QuoteWhy in the old testament when the people were warned with what would happen they always happened as it was said they would but now all of a sudden, when Christ says ALL these things must come to pass first that since they didn't come to pass we all of a sudden spiritualize them?
cosT..first the Natural as the Shadow..then that which is Spiritual, that which Lays within.....many here keep repeating it but ya dont see it bud..but no matters..love ya man :HeartThrob:
Hi Taffy,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate what you write. I really do. I'm not meaning to butter you up either.
However, there is a problem with your quote "first the Natural . . . then the Spiritual." The bible, at least no properly translated Bible says "first the Natural then the Spiritual."
I believe you are quoting this:
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
One can say from that translation "first the natural then the spiritual."
But in a better translated version it is:
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." The word "soulish" is psuchikon in Greek. "Natural" is Phusiken and "soulish" is psuchikon. In 1 Cor.15:46 psuchikon is used.
So it is talking about the "soulish" which is Adam, thereupon the spiritual which is Christ according to the context.
So I wouldn't suggest that all the things Christ spoke of which would occur prior to His appearing were soulish.
Man, I hate to be a fly in everyone's ointment here, but someone's gotta do it :winkgrin:
Ya Taf . . .what were you thinking!! How could you ever consider that soulish things would be connected to natural reasoning??!! Now everything I believe is going to have to be rewritten! There "are" no spiritual pictures . . . I just made all that stuff up! I'm not a spirit being after all . . .it's all about my flesh! My pain, My suffering . . .how could I ever imagine that there's an invisible source that would give me peace and strength while I went through the visible challenges . . . What a crock! Life is about what I feel, the pain, the misery . . .the global warming . . . we are all doomed for destruction for sure! There's just to much death and evil around us to even think that something as corny as "love" could ever overpower.
Maybe it's best I just throw everything I've posted up till today out and go back to what I used to think and believe. At least "then" it felt like I was "doing" something to further advance the truth.
Who'da thunk it that I have been so wrong in my beliefs . . . faith isn't accepting what can't be understood . . it's not believing in what can't be seen . . .how foolish of me . .it's always been reading the literal words at face value. Understanding the true definitions of every word is the key . . . when everybody learns the true definitions . . .surely that will end all arguments between us!
Forget about growing from other people's experiences in Christ. Forget about being open minded to accept new and deeper things from others on these forums . . . I should be spending more time enforcing what I see to be right and keeping everyone else in line with what I believe . .that's what will make God happiest . . I'm sure of it. :Whistle:
Well when ya ready bud..ill join ya Class , kinda throw away all those types , shadow and patterns , also could ya consider having a special class for striving over word definitions....getting nowhere but heck, wont it be fun telling everyone how right we
ALL are irrespective.... :sigh:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 30, 2009, 07:30:32 PM
Ya Taf . . .what were you thinking!! How could you ever consider that soulish things would be connected to natural reasoning??!! Now everything I believe is going to have to be rewritten! There "are" no spiritual pictures . . . I just made all that stuff up! I'm not a spirit being after all . . .it's all about my flesh! My pain, My suffering . . .how could I ever imagine that there's an invisible source that would give me peace and strength while I went through the visible challenges . . . What a crock! Life is about what I feel, the pain, the misery . . .the global warming . . . we are all doomed for destruction for sure! There's just to much death and evil around us to even think that something as corny as "love" could ever overpower.
O.K. Nathan and Taf, Class is in session.
Now now Nathan, me thinks ye be a might too hard on yerself.
"First the soulish then the spiritual" is not about EVERYTHING that is written in the Bible that has to do with common things such as the temple, the threatenings etc. It is only about Adam and Christ. Adam was the soul
ish one and Christ the spirit
ual or the One whose life was pertaining to the spirit. Now by "spiritual" I don't mean "figurative types and pictures" which is what you mean by it. It means that His life was regulated by God's spirit whereas Adam's life was regulated or pertaining to his soul, i.e. his soulish desires etc.
Now, friend, I never said there are no spiritual pictures to be had from the Old Testament writings such as the creation account etc. There are. So let's not go overboard, okay?
QuoteMaybe it's best I just throw everything I've posted up till today out and go back to what I used to think and believe. At least "then" it felt like I was "doing" something to further advance the truth.
Maybe that would be best if you feel you are truly the wise one of proberbs who learns and not be like the fool that can't learn anything. Now I believe you are the wise one. Prove me right, Nathan and Taffy.
QuoteWho'da thunk it that I have been so wrong in my beliefs . . . faith isn't accepting what can't be understood . . it's not believing in what can't be seen . . .how foolish of me . .it's always been reading the literal words at face value. Understanding the true definitions of every word is the key . . . when everybody learns the true definitions . . .surely that will end all arguments between us!
Is this how you felt when you first heard about Universal Reconciliation too?
QuoteForget about growing from other people's experiences in Christ. Forget about being open minded to accept new and deeper things from others on these forums . . . I should be spending more time enforcing what I see to be right and keeping everyone else in line with what I believe . .that's what will make God happiest . . I'm sure of it. :Whistle:
Well when ya ready bud..ill join ya Class , kinda throw away all those types , shadow and patterns , also could ya consider having a special class for striving over word definitions....getting nowhere but heck, wont it be fun telling everyone how right we ALL are irrespective.... :sigh:
:icon_flower:
I do hope you you are open minded to accept new and deeper things from others on these forums such as me. Have you learned the deeper things from me on this subject? I'm not saying you HAVE to believe the way I do. I also am not asking you to throw out all the types, shadows and patterns. I think you are way overdoing your pathos friend.
It is not about "be fun telling everyone how right we ALL are." It is about God raising teachers to help the body of Christ.
Eph 4:11-15 And
the same One gives these, indeed, as apostles, yet these as prophets, yet these as evangelists, yet these as pastors and
teachers, (12)
toward the adjusting of the saints for the work of dispensing, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, (13) unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ, (14) that we may by no means still be minors, surging hither and thither and being carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness with a view to the systematizing of the deception." (15) Now, being true, in love we should be making all grow into Him, Who is the Head - Christ"
The wise will increase in knowledge. I believe you are one of the wise ones.
Remember when Apollos was preaching? He was preaching but not accurately. What happened then? . . .
Act 18:24-26 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, a native Alexandrian, a scholarly man, arrives at Ephesus, being able in the scriptures." (25) He was instructed in the way of the Lord, and fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately what concerns Jesus, being versed only in the baptism of John." (26) Besides, he begins to speak boldly in the synagogue. Now, hearing him, Priscilla and Aquila took him to themselves and expounded the way of God to him more accurately."
Apollos could have made a big rant like you are doing right now and not learn anything. But he was wise like you are and was able to humble himself and learn from a man and woman. Due to that God was able to use him even more.
Nathan and Taffy, I believe you are wise. Don't let the lesson hurt your pride bro.
Tony
QuoteTaffy, I believe you are wise. Don't let the lesson hurt your pride bro
Hey T.... :icon_flower:
No pride hurt Bro, as One didnt percieve what you spoke of to be a lesson , AS we BOTH discussed the SOULISH man sometime back on another thread ....recall? :icon_flower:
More of pointing out to you , what you READ passed by ommiting the Term Shadow ,therefore misquoting me..which has now been explained... :icon_flower:
No worries Bud. :icon_flower:
.
Tony
Just to add Bud, :icon_flower:
In summary to what you posted.
If you will, the literal,serves its purpose bro....no one has said this end it doesnt . ya Know, Being an ex wwcg, WHO took most everything literally, The feasts of the Lord from Lev 23 they still keep... they are that literal, ONE tithe is not suffice...the bible speaks of three....so three tithes it was...and the list just went on...They were that Literal in KEEPING the LAW , Christ Never got a Mention from the Pulpit , except once a Yr at Passover....
As it were some 613 Laws werent enough..so they added Modern day clarity , so we could be EVEN more righteous...They were that entrenched in BEING righteous , the message was NOTHING less than LAW,....here lies one MAJOR problem if you Just take everything literally and apply it so....They lived in the shadow,but never saw the LIGHT which cast it , waiting to be RAISED at his return ,to fly off in the Clouds before DOOM and gloom destroyed the wicked folk....to put on their Crown and RULE the NATIONS in the Millenium( no such term, but there ya go..).When Christ is in the earth All.. men WILL ***LEARN**righteousness lest they get big bash with a ROD OF IRON...., serves em Bloody right too :sigh:
ya Know Tony these were TEACHERS,some were even Prophets predicting the time of the end by the MEASURING of the events of the day, some were pastors,and not lest forget the evangelists..yep them too, even ONE was an Apostle dont ya Know...I was was In training to be a Teacher come the WORLD tomorrow.....they even have colleges to teach these things....
But for mine such days are behind me...., but I still remember the Literal bro....just kinda see it on another plain thesedays...as for teachers..there are many , but very few seem to be making a Living at it....,just a few thoughts to your post bro.... :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
It was all in saurcasm . . .cp and taf picked up on that as I'm sure you had to have as well . .. I made it as obvious as I could without getting too offensive. The idea that it is you or I that is here to make teachers of anyone else reading these posts is a bit presumptous as well . . .it is Christ who gives his church those positions and people.
As far as Appollos goes . . .what he was teaching was good, but it just wasn't complete . . which is what I and others have been trying to tell you all along. And I've already seen how receptive you've been . . .which is another reason for the saurcasm . . .that other thread that was supposed to clear the water was a hoot. It did everything "but". And to see that you liken yourself to that which is complete, as you're assuming that I'm in the role of that which is not . . . (is there a smiley that is just shaking one's head?)
If a person took the time to start from the beginning of "this" thread, they'd see the same pattern here as well. The majority of the posts on here are arguments more than sharing. The reasoning mind is like the ocean . . .innumberable rivers empty into it, but it never over flows. It's like a fire that as much as you feed it, the more it burns . .always hungry for more. Kind of like a horseleech . . .it latches on to it's host but never gets full.
No matter how much we argue with each other . . aions or eons . . . we'll never come to where we can say OOOOHHH!! THAT'S IT!! Because the natural mind never rests. It's the bottomless pit. Do you really think Taf made a mistake? You know as well as the rest of us that we're on different pages.
I see if I were to go to where you are . . . it would be reestablishing old boundaries that I finally got myself freed from. So no, I don't see this to be like Apollos at all. You call me to be wise, yet you see yourself as wiser.
I see neither of us as wise, but both are followers . . .I know much of how I say things is teaching . .but what I'm teaching is merely an explanation of "why" I see what I see. My intentions are not to enforce what I say as facts. There's always room for growth in every dimension. I just don't have as much interest in a 15 page argument on why aion means something other than what everybody else thinks. I would have laid it down once it was clear that the two points of view were not going to connect . .and they never did.
I am learning from you . . .plenty . .but it's not because I see what you say as beneficial and edifying. I'm learning how to have differences of opinion and not become condemning over such things. I'm learning that relationship takes precedence over doctrine . . .even though I'm not a perfect example even that sometimes as I do tend to get tangled up in the arguments . . but I'm at least beginning to see sooner when things are not in season.
What I've learned most in these discussions is . .there is a reason why I'm to apply Scripture to "me" and not enforce my interpretation, or standards upon you . . .because if I do . . .there's no end to the arguing that follows. So for me, the Apollos analogy is a picture to me of my carnal mind not having the complete picture and the Spirit comes alongside me and reveals a better way . . .it has nothing to do with me applying it to you or anyone else. I don't grow much if I keep pitching the food intended for me over into someone elses trough.
Thanks Taffy,
There is a guy I work with here for Concordant and he too was in wwcg. He tells me the same horror stories.
So I can see where you are coming from. I see why it is so important for you (as it is for me really) to not be in the shadows and types but in the reality.
Thanks for sharing bro. It lets me know you are one of the wise who can learn for God brought you out of that mess. Yet, in the end, I'm sure you did learn alot from it all and it helped mature you in Christ, no?
Nathan, I'm going to hit two turtles with one stone here. Or is that birds? LOL
Nathan, I realize you said it was all in sarcasm, but I re-read it even after you told me it was and I cannot see how anyone could tell it was.
I realize God gives those positions of pastor, teacher, evangelist etc. to the church. Is it wrong to state that if God has given you to the church as a teacher that you should never let anyone know that is what God has given you? Paul said over and over what position he had. He didn't just wait for people to figure it out. Sure, I am no Paul and never will be. Also I am not a self appointed teacher but the church acknowledged me to be a teacher. It's a hard job but someone's gotta do it. :laughing7:
I also am not saying I am correct in everything. I learn from others too believe it or not. Just yesterday I learned that someone can't learn anything from what I teach here :laughing7: So I have learned to no longer engage with that person.
Nathan, is everything on these boards supposed to be about sharing? rather than sharing our points of view even if one does not agree with those points of view?
Is arguing bad?
(Rth 1:18) When Naomi realized that she was resolute to go with her, she left off arguing with her further.
(Act 19:8) Now, entering the synagogue, he spoke boldly for three months, arguing and persuading as to that which concerns the kingdom of God."
(Act 19:9) Now, as some were hardened and stubborn, saying evil things of the way before the multitude, withdrawing from them, he severs the disciples, arguing day by day in the school of Tyrannus."
(Act 20:9) Now a certain young man named Eutychus, being seated on the window, sinking into a deep sleep while Paul is arguing still more, being sunk from sleep, falls down from the third story, and was picked up dead."
(Act 24:12) And they neither found me in the sanctuary arguing with anyone, or making a concourse of the throng, nor in the synagogues, nor at the city,
(Act 24:25) Now as he is arguing concerning righteousness, and self-control, and the impending judgment, Felix, becoming affrighted, answered, "Now go. Yet, given occasion, I shall be calling for you,
(Heb 12:5) And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him."
I'll let you decide.
anyway, did you or Taffy learn anything from the "soulish first then the spiritual" being Adam and Christ and not everything written in the Bible? Just curious.
Love ya bro.
Tony, the failing teacher who will probably get a gum drop rather than a crown when he gets to heaven.
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 06:56:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2009, 06:15:37 PM
Hi Tony,
Yesterday I was talking to someone who, like you, thinks the temple will be rebuilt, but she didn't know what scriptures were claiming that. So I was wondering if you could list the scriptures that you use to claim that yourself?
As to the natural and spiritual--there are people who are really suffering (and dying) today because of what is being done to them by those in power, and I doubt they would be convinced or comforted that it is really all spiritual.
Greetings Molly,
I totally agree with you on the the suffering of today. I don't believe they are suffering spiritually.
As to the future temple to be rebuilt, it is my understanding that John the revelator was "in spirit in the Lord's Day". In other words, his revelation was about him seeing into the future day of the Lord when he was on the isle of Patmos around 90 some A.D. He was told to measure the temple in that future day.
In his revelation he also saw into the future and saw a messenger measuring the city on the new earth.
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
The temple John was to measure is the temple in which the man of lawlessness will show that he is God and when Christ comes back he will despatch (cut off) that man (2 Thess.2:8).
There was no man actually demonstrating he was God in 70 A.D. There was no man cut off by Christ that was demonstrating my miracles and signs that he was God in 70 A.D.
Therefore the temple must be future.
Also, I can't find it right now but I believe the measurements of Ezekiel's temple is larger than any temple yet to date so there must be another temple to be built.
Thanks, Tony. We looked at those scriptures you mentioned, but neither was specific enough to convince us they were a prophecy of a rebuilt temple. Like others said, they could be referring in a symbolic way to the temple of the body, or to the temple built without hands, or even to the earthly churches that now exist--like St Peter's Cathedral, which certainly would qualify as an earthly 'temple.'
I thought there might be some prophecy scriptures floating around in the Old Testament which claim the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be made by Levite priests--at the end times. Are you aware of anything like that?
Hey Molly, in Revelation there is a passage in there about ending the daily sacrifice . . I'm not on my normal computer so I can't try to dig it up . . . but the teaching is, because there currently are no sacrifices taking place now, this then indicates that this is talking about when the temple is rebuilt and the antichrist has given the Jews permission to start up their animal sacrifices . . it's all supposed to be centered around the 7 year tribulation.
Jeremiah 3:16 actually states just the opposite . . I "think" that's the right passage . . just off the top of my head . . .which means now that I've given you that .. .I'm left with NOTHING up there now . . .sigh . . . :mshock:
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 09:05:58 PM
Nathan, I realize you said it was all in sarcasm, but I re-read it even after you told me it was and I cannot see how anyone could tell it was.
This is authentic Tony here . . . "You" realize I said it in sarcasm, but you can't see how anyone else could?
What, praytell, was it that caused you to know that anyone else who's read my posts would not know?
Quote from: Nathan on January 30, 2009, 09:54:26 PM
Hey Molly, in Revelation there is a passage in there about ending the daily sacrifice . . I'm not on my normal computer so I can't try to dig it up . . . but the teaching is, because there currently are no sacrifices taking place now, this then indicates that this is talking about when the temple is rebuilt and the antichrist has given the Jews permission to start up their animal sacrifices . . it's all supposed to be centered around the 7 year tribulation.
Jeremiah 3:16 actually states just the opposite . . I "think" that's the right passage . . just off the top of my head . . .which means now that I've given you that .. .I'm left with NOTHING up there now . . .sigh . . . :mshock:
lol Thanks Nathan. Do you mean this from the book of Daniel?
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. --Daniel 9
We have to remember that Daniel was in exile at the time of this vision and the temple and the city of Jerusalem had been destroyed by the Babylonians. It would indeed be rebuilt after this, and animal sacrifice resumed. Then we have the 3 year ministry of Jesus much later--the Anointed One--at the end of which he tells the Jews their house [temple] is left to them deslolate--because they will not see him again, after which he is 'cut off'--dies.
So without working out all the details, I would have to say this is a prophecy that has already been fulfilled with the rebuilding of the temple and, later, the coming of the Messiah, and the destruction of the temple in 70ad. For now, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Yup, Daniel 9 . .that's what I said :laughing7:
And I agree with you totally . . .A.D.70 destroyed it . . but I would add . . that's not what the traditional teaching is on it . . .it's futuristic . .that's why their dead set on rebuilding it. To fulfill the almighty prophecy . . .
Quote from: Nathan on January 30, 2009, 11:00:05 PM
Yup, Daniel 9 . .that's what I said :laughing7:
And I agree with you totally . . .A.D.70 destroyed it . . but I would add . . that's not what the traditional teaching is on it . . .it's futuristic . .that's why their dead set on rebuilding it. To fulfill the almighty prophecy . . .
They can read as well as we can. There is no way to misread this has already happened taking the historical context into consideration.
I want to see an Old Testament prophecy that specifically says the temple will be rebuilt after 70ad. So far, I have seen none.
Unless and until I see that, I will continue to believe this is a trick of the antichrist to set up his own world system, making himself God. I'm sure he wants to do that, and he's deceiving the whole world into believing it will happen, at the moment, but I don't so far see anything that says he will succeed.
Prophecy is amazingly accurate if you line it up correctly with actual historical events.
Quote from: Nathan on January 30, 2009, 10:04:47 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 09:05:58 PM
Nathan, I realize you said it was all in sarcasm, but I re-read it even after you told me it was and I cannot see how anyone could tell it was.
This is authentic Tony here . . . "You" realize I said it in sarcasm, but you can't see how anyone else could?
What, praytell, was it that caused you to know that anyone else who's read my posts would not know?
Nathan, AFTER you told me you said it in sarcasm then I realized it was in sarcasm. I did not realize it was in sarcasm without you telling me it was in sarcasm.
I would never have known it was in sarcasm had you not told me it was.
In fact, I really doubt it was in sarcasm. You probably just felt bad that you said some mean things and when I brought some things up to you about what you wrote, you put on a fair face in the flesh and said you were just kidding.
Anyone who thinks the temple is outside of himself, or a building such as St. Peter's Cathedral, the local church, or the temple of the mount, is seriously deceived. The Bible cannot make it any clearer what the temple of God is and was always meant to be. The natural was meant to be an exact replication of the spiritual, but it is in the spiritual that the natural is fulfilled.
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
--1 Cor 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
2 Corinthians 6:16
... For we are the temple of the living God. As God said:"I will live in them and walk among them.I will be their God,and they will be my people.
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
I believe that (2 thess 2) is referring to one man who is presenting himself to the world as the Lord Jesus Christ--or a substitute for Him. If Christ is dwelling in me, do I then require you to bow down to me, to worship me, to do everything I tell you to do because I am God? No--of course not. But there is one who does--the antichrist--because satan wants to be worshipped.
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Hi T...
Theres quite a few older thread on this ANTi-Christ..cant seem to think what they are titled for now...
paraphraised
and as ya Now know more of my History :icon_flower:
Again for mine- ......The carnality of man which is enmity, our VERY soulish nature , Likened to the BEAST IS the VERY heart of **MAN***,that which is DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS.. :icon_flower:
for me we are IN the DAY of the Lord, (without need to further discuss it...,)
this very Nature(son of perdition, (vessel) of Destruction) comes to Death when TRUTH is revealed, as theif in the
Night( Christ) who comes to RE=veil WHO HE IS..again T ,WE SPEAK OF the Inward man , (each man in HIS own Time,)..TO reclaim HIS rightful Throne in the HEART\mind( Temple) of man ie, the NC... :cloud9:
Death of the OLD man , RE-born ANEW :icon_flower:
As I say Tony Tis for Mine Bro :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Tony, repetition is good so I want to chime in again. The verses you quote above come totally alive for me when I view them as God making me in His image right now. I do have within me that which is opposed to God, even now I do. I lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on. I do. If this that is within my essence is not an abomination of desolation then nothing is and I tell ya what, what is going on inside of me is more important than what might happen physically later on.
I firmly believe Jesus Christ is within my essence too. This is my 'holy place' for lack of a better way to describe it. I have personally witnessed abominations standing in the holy place of my life.
Do you understand this at all? I also think these Scriptures will be acted out in some physical way too as much of Scripture is.
cp
QuoteI lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on.
You do? :mshock:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 12:38:42 AM
QuoteI lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on.
You do? :mshock:
Molly, you have no idea! :mblush:
Or if I read you right, maybe you do!!!
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 12:37:03 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Tony, repetition is good so I want to chime in again. The verses you quote above come totally alive for me when I view them as God making me in His image right now. I do have within me that which is opposed to God, even now I do. I lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on. I do. If this that is within my essence is not an abomination of desolation then nothing is and I tell ya what, what is going on inside of me is more important than what might happen physically later on.
I firmly believe Jesus Christ is within my essence too. This is my 'holy place' for lack of a better way to describe it. I have personally witnessed abominations standing in the holy place of my life.
Do you understand this at all? I also think these Scriptures will be acted out in some physical way too as much of Scripture is.
cp
Claypot and all of you who think Satan is posessing you,
how does this spirit of Satan inside of you demonstrate by miracles that he is God so as to deceive the very elect (me)? Is that your mission in life? to deceive me and the rest of the elect?
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 12:42:10 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 12:38:42 AM
QuoteI lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on.
You do? :mshock:
Molly, you have no idea! :mblush:
Or if I read you right, maybe you do!!!
cp
Go and sin no more. [Jn 8:11]
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 12:37:03 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Tony, repetition is good so I want to chime in again. The verses you quote above come totally alive for me when I view them as God making me in His image right now. I do have within me that which is opposed to God, even now I do. I lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on. I do. If this that is within my essence is not an abomination of desolation then nothing is and I tell ya what, what is going on inside of me is more important than what might happen physically later on.
I firmly believe Jesus Christ is within my essence too. This is my 'holy place' for lack of a better way to describe it. I have personally witnessed abominations standing in the holy place of my life.
Do you understand this at all? I also think these Scriptures will be acted out in some physical way too as much of Scripture is.
cp
Claypot and all of you who think Satan is posessing you,
how does this spirit of Satan inside of you demonstrate by miracles that he is God so as to deceive the very elect (me)? Is that your mission in life? to deceive me and the rest of the elect?
There are plenty of those and have been from the beginning.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 02:00:01 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 12:37:03 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Tony, repetition is good so I want to chime in again. The verses you quote above come totally alive for me when I view them as God making me in His image right now. I do have within me that which is opposed to God, even now I do. I lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on. I do. If this that is within my essence is not an abomination of desolation then nothing is and I tell ya what, what is going on inside of me is more important than what might happen physically later on.
I firmly believe Jesus Christ is within my essence too. This is my 'holy place' for lack of a better way to describe it. I have personally witnessed abominations standing in the holy place of my life.
Do you understand this at all? I also think these Scriptures will be acted out in some physical way too as much of Scripture is.
cp
Claypot and all of you who think Satan is posessing you,
how does this spirit of Satan inside of you demonstrate by miracles that he is God so as to deceive the very elect (me)? Is that your mission in life? to deceive me and the rest of the elect?
There are plenty of those and have been from the beginning.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
O.K. so all of you here are antichrists?
Nope.
antichrist has a very specific definition
"antichrist"
G500
ἀντίχριστος
antichristos
an-tee'-khris-tos
From G473 and G5547; an opponent of the Messiah: - antichrist.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Also, a more in depth definition of anti
"anti"
G473
ἀντί
anti
an-tee'
A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.
:.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 02:11:21 AM
O.K. so all of you here are antichrists?
Just a reminder you're mainly talking to 3 or 4 people recently in this thread, brother Tony. There's a whole lot of members around, with many different levels of understanding...and hopefully all sincerely trying to understand the things of God :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 02:21:43 AM
Nope.
antichrist has a very specific definition
"antichrist"
G500
ἀντίχριστος
antichristos
an-tee'-khris-tos
From G473 and G5547; an opponent of the Messiah: - antichrist.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Rom 8:6 If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the sinful nature is always
hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.
Rom 8:8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)
Quote from: Zeek on January 31, 2009, 02:52:31 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 02:21:43 AM
Nope.
antichrist has a very specific definition
"antichrist"
G500
ἀντίχριστος
antichristos
an-tee'-khris-tos
From G473 and G5547; an opponent of the Messiah: - antichrist.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Rom 8:6 If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.
Rom 8:8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)
Yes, but if they are hostile to God or an enemy of God does that make them an antichrist?
I don't think so. Antichrist is one who is a 'deceiver.' That's not saying he is deceived. He is deceiving others.
He is an opponent to the Messiah, or even placing himself as a substitute Messiah.
It has a very specific meaning, and 'hostile' just doesn't meet it.
hmm, cool. I'll look into that more.
I still have all this activity within me. A mans ENEMIES are those of his own household Jesus said. mt10.36 If this doesn't mean that each persons enemies are within then I will eat my shorts. Anger, depression, envy, ignorance, arrogance, stubborness and on and on are enemies within people.
Are all of you pure within? Do any of you get angry or moody? To me this is an anti christ essence.
Satan does possess me in a sense. Satan = adversary in my eyes and there is much within me that is very adversarial to God. Satan will not be the one who is all in all ultimately but for now 'he' is allowed to have some say in Gods economy.
Molly, you suggest to me to go and sin no more and I thank you for caring and need I say the same to you or have you overcome sin to your satisfaction. I know you have overcome sin in Christ but have you fully experienced what it is to be sin free in all of your being? I haven't but I am looking forward to it!!!!
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 03:59:56 AM
I still have all this activity within me. A mans ENEMIES are those of his own household Jesus said. mt10.36 If this doesn't mean that each persons enemies are within then I will eat my shorts.
:cloud9: Boxers, or briefs? :mshock:
:mrflo: Sorry, my bad. I just couldn't resist that one......(and I agree with you, so no shorts eating needed on MY watch :laughing7: )
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 01:40:44 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 12:37:03 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 30, 2009, 11:36:24 PM
Let me get something straight here:
Some of you believe that the body of Christ is the temple of God. I do too.
But some of you believe that each member of the body of Christ is going to somehow be possessed by Satan who is going to prove by miracles that he is God and then Jesus is going to perform some sort of deliverance on each believer to get the devil out of them? Is this right? This fulfills the prophecy of
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
If it is I'm definately in the wrong place.
Do you people really believe you are posessed by Satan?
Tony
Tony, repetition is good so I want to chime in again. The verses you quote above come totally alive for me when I view them as God making me in His image right now. I do have within me that which is opposed to God, even now I do. I lie, cheat, steal, think lustful thoughts and so on. I do. If this that is within my essence is not an abomination of desolation then nothing is and I tell ya what, what is going on inside of me is more important than what might happen physically later on.
I firmly believe Jesus Christ is within my essence too. This is my 'holy place' for lack of a better way to describe it. I have personally witnessed abominations standing in the holy place of my life.
Do you understand this at all? I also think these Scriptures will be acted out in some physical way too as much of Scripture is.
cp
Claypot and all of you who think Satan is posessing you,
how does this spirit of Satan inside of you demonstrate by miracles that he is God so as to deceive the very elect (me)? Is that your mission in life? to deceive me and the rest of the elect?
Tony, there is that in you which is elect IMO. You are deceived somewhere along the line I am thinking or Tony, do you beleive all you hold to be truth is absolute truth? Are you beyond growing? If you are now holding as truth something that may change as you grow in truth then now you are deceived.
I don't use the phrase 'the spirit of satan'. I use what Scripture uses, Satan, adversary.
My mission in life is to be made in the image of God. I will do all I can do via grace to see this accomplished. My mission is not to deceive you, I think 'satan' is doing a good job of that now but I also believe Jesus is doing a better job of saving you so rest in God Brother.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 04:07:39 AM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 03:59:56 AM
I still have all this activity within me. A mans ENEMIES are those of his own household Jesus said. mt10.36 If this doesn't mean that each persons enemies are within then I will eat my shorts.
:cloud9: Boxers, or briefs? :mshock:
:mrflo: Sorry, my bad. I just couldn't resist that one......(and I agree with you, so no short eating needed on MY watch :laughing7: )
Card, I opened myself up knowingly with my words and I truely enjoy humor so it was not your 'bad' at all. Isn't this weird? I mean I know we are all coming from different places with a lot of this stuff but can people really be as ignorant as they sound? I don't mean this disrespectfully but I really think some people are just making up counter arguements for the purpose of arguing. What do you think?
cp
Hope this helps,
The abomination of desolation is set up on 'a wing of the
temple". Cherubs and their wings cover the ark of the
covenant. O'covering cherub is spoken of when addressing the
King of Tyre. Sin's law in our flesh goes back to the beginning.
The original serpent..because he spoke through a
serpent..the beast..the mind of a beast[antiChrist spirit]
instead of spirit of Christ/does not the sin in our flesh make
us behave as beasts?ungodly?carnal? The man of sin..our
flesh inhabited with sin/or spirit of this anti-Christ.
Paul spoke of it...that which I desire to do,I do not, that
which I do not desire to do,I do.Who will deliver me from this
body undergoing this death? Death is the conclusion of this
abomination in our bodies.. whoever destroys God's temple
God will himself destroy.
All sin is anti-christ spirit in operation..for He was sinless
and Father's spirit is LOVE ;and all sin is spirit -operating
against Christ and warring within our bodies[temples]
God has hardened the heart of the anti-christ spirit..just
as in the day when He delivered Israel from Egypt. God's
throne in our temple[bodies] is to have total Sovereignty.
It is this anti-christ spirit that attempts to usurp God and seat
himself in the body of mankind...in effect destroying God's
temple.For God created man for His spirit to dwell in.
Another ruler has lifted himself up to sit on the throne of God
in mankind and rule..to the detriment of God and all mankind.
Christ comes to break up the works of the devil...
...mighty acts of deliverance
performed by God for His people will come to pass.
We all have sin in our flesh..we are liars if we deny it..if we
confess them He freely forgives and cleanses us from them.
Anything done not of the spirit of Love..and faith is SIN.
we who have the Holy spirit..have a token of our inheritance
but not the full delivery into the heavenly inheritance, yet.
The spirit of the TRUTH is to lead us into all truth.
Sadducce spirits of vipers possessed men when He came to
the temple in Jerusalem..they sat in Moses seat[ law/judging]
They fought against God's Christ in that temple.Christ threw
out the money-changers and those selling doves for profit.
Being blinded by this spirit of anti-christ they conspired and
and crucified the spirit of Love that was of God and His Christ.
They destroyed the temple of God..even God's word come in
the flesh ...and He destroyed their temple,,not
a stone upon a stone would remain.Rev 21;22 And I saw no
temple in it,for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb arethe
temple of it
But He is building a new city..a Holy spiritual city of which His
spirit will always dwell in. Rev22,,but the throne of God and
the Lamb shall be in it .Rev 21;27 Nothing impure will ever
enter it.
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2009, 04:23:14 AM
Hope this helps,
The abomination of desolation is set up on 'a wing of the
temple". Cherubs and their wings cover the ark of the
covenant. O'covering cherub is spoken of when addressing the
King of Tyre. Sin's law in our flesh goes back to the beginning.
The original serpent..because he spoke through a
serpent..the beast..the mind of a beast[antiChrist spirit]
instead of spirit of Christ/does not the sin in our flesh make
us behave as beasts?ungodly?carnal? The man of sin..our
flesh inhabited with sin/or spirit of this anti-Christ.
Paul spoke of it...that which I desire to do,I do not, that
which I do not desire to do,I do.Who will deliver me from this
body undergoing this death? Death is the conclusion of this
abomination in our bodies.. whoever destroys God's temple
God will himself destroy.
All sin is anti-christ spirit in operation..for He was sinless
and Father's spirit is LOVE ;and all sin is spirit -operating
against Christ and warring within our bodies[temples]
God has hardened the heart of the anti-christ spirit..just
as in the day when He delivered Israel from Egypt. God's
throne in our temple[bodies] is to have total Sovereignty.
It is this anti-christ spirit that attempts to usurp God and seat
himself in the body of mankind...in effect destroying God's
temple.For God created man for His spirit to dwell in.
Another ruler has lifted himself up to sit on the throne of God
in mankind and rule..to the detriment of God and all mankind.
Christ comes to break up the works of the devil...
...mighty acts of deliverance
performed by God for His people will come to pass.
We all have sin in our flesh..we are liars if we deny it..if we
confess them He freely forgives and cleanses us from them.
Anything done not of the spirit of Love..and faith is SIN.
we who have the Holy spirit..have a token of our inheritance
but not the full delivery into the heavenly inheritance, yet.
The spirit of the TRUTH is to lead us into all truth.
Sadducce spirits of vipers possessed men when He came to
the temple in Jerusalem..they sat in Moses seat[ law/judging]
They fought against God's Christ in that temple.Christ threw
out the money-changers and those selling doves for profit.
Being blinded by this spirit of anti-christ they conspired and
and crucified the spirit of Love that was of God and His Christ.
They destroyed the temple of God..even God's word come in
the flesh ...and He destroyed their temple,,not
a stone upon a stone would remain.Rev 21;22 And I saw no
temple in it,for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb arethe
temple of it
But He is building a new city..a Holy spiritual city of which His
spirit will always dwell in. Rev22,,but the throne of God and
the Lamb shall be in it .Rev 21;27 Nothing impure will ever
enter it.
It helps, Sheila, it helps me anyway. Thanks.
cp
:cloud9: Sheila.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 04:15:19 AM
What do you think? cp
:cloud9: I think only the Lord knows for sure..... :dontknow:
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 03:59:56 AM
I still have all this activity within me. A mans ENEMIES are those of his own household Jesus said. mt10.36 If this doesn't mean that each persons enemies are within then I will eat my shorts. Anger, depression, envy, ignorance, arrogance, stubborness and on and on are enemies within people.
Are all of you pure within? Do any of you get angry or moody? To me this is an anti christ essence.
Satan does possess me in a sense. Satan = adversary in my eyes and there is much within me that is very adversarial to God. Satan will not be the one who is all in all ultimately but for now 'he' is allowed to have some say in Gods economy.
Molly, you suggest to me to go and sin no more and I thank you for caring and need I say the same to you or have you overcome sin to your satisfaction. I know you have overcome sin in Christ but have you fully experienced what it is to be sin free in all of your being? I haven't but I am looking forward to it!!!!
I think if we read it in context, it says just what it sounds like it says, literally.
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. --Mat 36
Do you mean to suggest that my mother, father, son, or daughter just refer to different parts of myself internally? Or is he actually talking about our family?
[his own]
"household"G3615
οἰκιακός
oikiakosoy-kee-ak-os'
From G3614; familiar, that is, (as noun)
relatives: - they (them) of (his own) household.
As for the other, it struck me a long time ago that Jesus would always say that to people he had healed--go and sin no more--as if it were....possible!
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.--1 Peter 1:16
Quote from: SheilaThe abomination of desolation is set up on 'a wing of the
temple".
The priests chambers are in the wings of the temple.
He's talking about people who will [look like] priests of God, filling that role, but really be imposters, i.e. the antichrist.
45And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.
46And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him.--Eze40
5And against the wall of the house he built
chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about:
--1 Kings 6
"chambers"H3326
éöåÌò
yâtsûa‛yaw-tsoo'-ah
Passive participle of H3331; spread, that is, a bed; (architecturally) an extension, that is,
wing or lean to (a single story or collection): - bed, chamber, couch.
Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Molly, you wrote....
I think if we read it in context, it says just what it sounds like it says, literally.
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
--Mat 36
Do you mean to suggest that my mother, father, son, or daughter just refer to different parts of myself internally? Or is he actually talking about our family?
I see Jesus using life situations to prove spiritual truths in EVERYTHING He says. Molly, Jesus also said this....
If anyone comes to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. lk14.26
I think Jesus was not endorsing and encouraging us to hate all these people was He? Do you believe He was?
I really think Jesus was referring to different aspects of my very essence, my being. I am to take all that I am most initimate with that is not of God and dispense with it utterly and completely. Jesus is making a real point here, not being literal. This is so clear to me. Can you see what I'm saying?
We should not love anything more than God, is Scriptures message to us here, not that we should dishonor and hate our Mothers and Fathers.
Can you see this?
cp
The translator uses the word 'hate' which I think, in that context, means to love less. Although the use of this Greek word implies how much more we are to love God than anything or anybody on this earth--so that all other love looks like 'hate' perhaps--by comparison? That's one of those hard teachings--and, I didn't get it for a long time, but now I think I can understand what it means to love him more than any member of my family, or anything else for that matter. Following him is not such an easy thing--and it takes tremendous motivation which can only be produced by great love.
"hate"
G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
:cloud9: The tabernacle is as a representation of a SINGLE MAN, also, not just a corporate expression of mankind's walk. So the animal slaying in the outer court, is the same as putting to death those carnal beastly natures we all have to deal with, ie. the enemies of our own house (hold).
House in Hebrew also means a lineage, as in the house of Moses, ect. These things are in the house of ADAM, the natural man we have to walk around carrying until he be swallowed up of immortality. Blessings....
"A falling away from the Spirit of Christ; leaves only an anti-Christ."
Unless, the field falls gently to the river!
Peacemaker
Molly,
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the Priests.. The Word of
God come in flesh and the Holy spirit work the ministry
of atonemnet for all mankind.as Priest's. There is a High
Priest annointed for WAR [the Holy spirit]actually wars with
this contrary spirit. There are wars within and without
There is another word that comes in flesh that is Not
the word of God,or of the spirit of God. It is a twisting of the
word of God that began back in the garden...'did God really
say? Ezekiel 28....you were in Eden the garden of God....
you were anointed as a guardian Cherub..you were blameless
in your ways from the day you were created,til wickedness
was found in you...your heart became PROUD on account
of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of
your splendor.
The Cherubs wings overshadowed the atonemnt cover..
the Word of God written of Tables was inside..as well
as manna and oil.
There is a term..the power of the Holy spirit overshadow you
....that is the power of God and His spirit...but there is
another spirit that wars against Jesus and the Holy spirit.
Matthew 24 ..you will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but
see that you are not alarmed,such thing must happen.
v 24 false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform
great signs and miracles....to deceive[see, just like in the
garden...same spirit in operation]
Jesus speaks of spiritual warfare,but there is literal warfare
also...both within our bodies and without. Romans 7;22
for in my inner being I delight in God's law[LOVE] but,
I see another law at work in the members of my body...
waging war against the law of my mind..and making me
a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
So,then,I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law
but with the flesh the law of sin
As far as mother against daughter etc. and this warring
There is another 'old man" that fathered this sin in my flesh
it was NOT GOD who planted it..not HIS SEED in the earth
of my body..it is this father I am not to love more than Jesus
or my heavenly father...this 'old man' wars against the spirit of
my Heavenly Father and His son..that dwells in me...by the
same token My Mother,Jerusalem Above is at odds with the
daughter of babylon that dwells in my flesh..that harlot that
is a cage for every unclean spirit...for by thy sorceries were all
the nations deceived.
It is in this manner that we speak of these spiritual things,
spiritual wars,and abominations.
Good stuff Cardinal and Sheila--lots to think about--Thanks!
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 04:15:19 AM
I know we are all coming from different places with a lot of this stuff but can people really be as ignorant as they sound? I don't mean this disrespectfully but I really think some people are just making up counter arguments for the purpose of arguing. What do you think?
cp
It's Rhetoric, and not in an elegant sense of the word. Nor, is it effective or persuasive.
peacemaker
Indeed, Good stuff Cardinal, Sheila, and Taffy!
:gthumbsup:
:Book:
peacemaker
:cloud9: Go Sheila! :thumbsup:
On the other hand, this--
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Was probably a very helpful message for those who took it literally.
wow. I don't know how I missed this--
5 Then the Devil took Him to the holy city, had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple.
--Mat 4
"pinnacle" [of the temple]
G4419
πτερύγιον
pterugion
pter-oog'-ee-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G4420; a winglet, that is, (figuratively) extremity (top corner): - pinnacle.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator."
--Daniel 9
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 10:25:32 AM
On the other hand, this--
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Was probably a very helpful message for those who took it literally.
Matthew 24, right?...I see this as literal wrt the "compassing about" of Jerusalem and her destruction in 70 AD...probably some further spiritual applications as well, but I'm afraid I tend to be a little too concrete at times ...someone else will know.
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 02:21:43 AM
Nope.
antichrist has a very specific definition
"antichrist"
G500
ἀντίχριστος
antichristos
an-tee'-khris-tos
From G473 and G5547; an opponent of the Messiah: - antichrist.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Also, a more in depth definition of anti
"anti"
G473
ἀντί
anti
an-tee'
A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.
An In ward and outward application always seems to apply, :icon_flower:
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and
desperately wicked: who can know it?
It is said, Its Not what goes into a MAN which defiles him , Tis what comes Out of a Man(his mouth) which does?
From the abundance OF THE heart THE mouth SPEAKS PERTAINS TO The
fruit of Ones Lips.....both PRO and ANTI
Isa 57:19 I create the
fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the
fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. [/u]
Job 33:3
My words [shall be of] the
uprightness of my heart: and my
lips shall utter knowledge clearly. The ANTI- Christ are those who speak of Lies\Guile against HE who is TRUTH..
Psa 12:3 The LORD
shall cut off all flattering lips, [and] the tongue that
speaketh proud things:
The Prideo fthose who Boast maybe?
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy
boast of God, Rom 2:23 Thou that makest
thy boast of the law, through
breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 3:27 Where [is]
boasting then? It is excluded.
By what law? of works? Nay: but
by the law of faith gee the Richman &( lazurus) shoot straight to mind
Psa 49:6 They that
trust in their wealth, and
boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; Psa 94:4 [How long] shall they utter [and] speak hard things? [and] all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?
kinda get back to those BONDservants who are yet to KNOW they are TRULY free
Rev 3:17 Because thou*******
sayest******, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
BUT
Pro 15:25 The
LORD will destroy the house of the proud: but he will establish the border of the widow.
Pro 16:5
Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an
abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Pro 6:17 A
proud look, a
lying tongue, and
hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 21:4 An
high look, and a
proud heart, [and] the
plowing of the wicked, [is] *****sin********
Psa 59:12 [For] the
sin of their mouth [and] the
words of their lips, Let them even be
taken in their pride, And for the cursing and lying [which] they speak The Day of the LORD :icon_flower:
Isa 2:12 For the
day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is]
proud and lofty, and upon
every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be
brought low: Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall
burn as an oven; and
all the proud, yea, and all that do
wickedly, shall be stubble: and the
day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Back to my question:
If, according to some of you, antichrist is dwelling in you, in the temple, and this somehow is the fulfillment of him sitting in the temple proving that he is God by miracles, how have you been creating miracles proving that you are God to deceive the elect?
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 12:05:34 PM
Back to my question:
If, according to some of you, antichrist is dwelling in you, in the temple, and this somehow is the fulfillment of him sitting in the temple proving that he is God by miracles, how have you been creating miracles proving that you are God to deceive the elect?
No Worries Bro :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 12:05:34 PM
Back to my question:
If, according to some of you, antichrist is dwelling in you, in the temple, and this somehow is the fulfillment of him sitting in the temple proving that he is God by miracles, how have you been creating miracles proving that you are God to deceive the elect?
Hi Tony.... not sure which verse you are referring to regarding the "miracles" part.
How about just an example of that spirit:
Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?The king was not possessed by the devil ala
The Exorcist. The king was not running around deceiving the elect by performing physical miracles. The king himself was elect and yet was also presently deceived by the spirit of antichrist within him. By what miracle did this spirit deceive him? By the miracle of the king having built such a majestic kingdom all by his lonesome, when in truth God had built that kingdom and handed it to the king.
God ordained that:
1. That spirit within the king's heart would be destroyed through seven times of judgment
2. The king would receive back his kingdom (which is why I called the king "elect")
3. The king would have a new heart that exalted God as God and knew for sure that the king was no god.
Here is that spirit again:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.The pharisee falsely believes himself to be better than others on account of himself. Self worship, self glorification, scorning others as less than.
Anyone who has received something from God... whatever gift, whatever "kingdom"... whether insight or knowledge or ability to speak or ability to comfort others.... whatever gift... if that person puffs himself up and says to himself "hey, looky me... looky what I built.... I'm somethin' special... etc." ... that person has the same spirit and is on the same path as king Neb.
What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.
Jesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).
He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.
We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 02:23:10 PM
What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.
We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)
Romans 7
1. Evil is present with Paul, sin dwells in Paul
2. Paul delights in God's law in the inward man
Paul's inward man was "sharing space" with evil and sin. Where did that evil in Paul come from?
QuoteJesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).
He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.
Tony... you are operating from an assumption of literalism... that if God wants to say "in your bodies" that God must say "in your bodies". That assumption is proven to be unreliable since Christ said "destroy this temple..." not "destroy this body"
Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.
I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."
Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 02:23:10 PM
What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.
We also are never taught that Satan dwells in us. The holy spirit will not share space with Satan. Jesus said if that were the case then the house would be divided and fall (or something to that effect.)
Romans 7
1. Evil is present with Paul, sin dwells in Paul
2. Paul delights in God's law in the inward man
Paul's inward man was "sharing space" with evil and sin. Where did that evil in Paul come from?
QuoteJesus told his followers that "Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
then let those in Judea flee into the mountains (Mat 24:15,16).
He didn't say, When you see the abomination of desolation in your bodies then flee to the mountains.
Tony... you are operating from an assumption of literalism... that if God wants to say "in your bodies" that God must say "in your bodies". That assumption is proven to be unreliable since Christ said "destroy this temple..." not "destroy this body"
I am seeing something from you Tony and it is very good. You ask questions that cause this topic to go on and on which, to me, is a very good thing. You make people go back to the basics and repeat over and over again what has already been said but they do it in new ways because of how you rephrase your questions. Me thinks you must know how most will respond to your questions but you keep asking them which I believe to be of God because I am learning so much from the new ways many are saying the same thing to you.
You are a very good teacher in this way, much like the Lord Himself. You are teaching by leading people to analyze their beliefs via your questions. Like God asking Adam where he was in the garden. God knew where Adam was yet a very basic question like that would make a person think about where he is at, don't you think?
Remember no one is saying the physical literal does not take place. They are saying that when the physical does happen it is the acting out of spiritual (Kingdom) truths.
cp
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.
I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."
Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.
If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.
I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."
Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.
Tony, I think that I can guarantee you that if you run to the mountains, which I see to be the Holy Place within you in this context, that if you continually do this the anti christ within you will be defeated. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus, the Rock, the Mountain we are to flee into.
If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.
Do you really think that Jesus wants us to run to Him and say things like "Jesus, now you can accept me because I just came from my house where I told my Mom and Dad and brothers and sisters just how much I hate them and how detestable they are to me. Aren't you proud of me?'
Remember Tony, you are a son or Father or brother to or of someone.
I really think if we said this to Jesus, He would tell us in effect to depart from Him because we are not really hearing what He is trying to communicate. Jesus had only so much time for those who willingly remained in the dark. He knew until God chose to reveal Himself within a person speaking of spiritual things was useless.
cp
Tony, you wrote....
What I find interesting is that we are never told that we have the antichrist or the man of lawlessness dwelling in us.
Tony, we are told and then we are told.
It is often more in the hearing than in the being told, don't you think?
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 03:40:32 PM
If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.
Hi Cp, I would love to hear how you see these verses??
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why do you keep seeing "flesh" in you??
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Present tense verses.
I personally see real fault in that we are part flesh, part spirit (sounds like mixing of old wine with new).
and i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",
for me;
that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8.
where i'm at for now, I refuse to go back, to look back and see a man of flesh.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us
lay aside every weight, and
the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the
end of your faith, even
the salvation of your souls. HE IS THE END.
Do you only see "the salvation of your souls" as future, not attainable NOW??
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 03:37:14 PMIf it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.Whatever "fleeing to the mountains" means, the reason for fleeing is BECAUSE "these be the days of vengeance" written about throughout scirpture. The purpose of "fleeing to the mountains" is to to escape the days of vengeance. Right? So by examining "the days of vengeance" throughout scripture and how to escape from "the midst of" those days we might get an idea about what "fleeing" means and maybe who it applies to etc.
Quote from: Zeek on January 31, 2009, 04:06:43 PMand i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",
for me; that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8.
Zeek what do you see as the defintion of being "carnally minded" or "in the flesh" or "walk... after the flesh" per Romans 8. The reason I ask is: For any person who is any of those things, Romans 8 would not yet apply to them and they would still be under Romans 7, right?
Quote from: Zeek on January 31, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 03:40:32 PM
If you can't relate 'sin dwelling in our flesh' with 'a mans enemies are those of his own household' then you just can't do it but I see no other way it can be seen and can't believe you really can't either.
Hi Cp, I would love to hear how you see these verses??
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why do you keep seeing "flesh" in you??
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Present tense verses.
I personally see real fault in that we are part flesh, part spirit (sounds like mixing of old wine with new).
and i think in an earlier verse, bobf talked about Romans 7, "sin dwelling in me",
for me;
that is man under law, and we are rescued from this per end of Romans 7, and Romans 8.
where i'm at for now, I refuse to go back, to look back and see a man of flesh.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
HE IS THE END.
Do you only see "the salvation of your souls" as future, not attainable NOW??
Zeek, I see corruption and mortality, not so much in me as you say, but still a presence in my very being. I also see incorruption and immortality too.
I very much see the salvation of my soul as a very current event right now as well as a future reality.
I agree with you that we are not PART this and PART that. We are one essence. We are part of a greater essence and there are other essences that make us, us. Within my essence there is the Kingdom of God and enemies of this Kingdom as I believe Jesus taught.
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. lk17.21
and
and the enemies of a man are those of his household. mt10.36For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. rom8.6I see this as partly saying that those who see things primarily as natural or fleshly are walking in the flesh and not in the spirit. This is 'not having the Spirit of Christ' or to put it another way, it is not 'getting' what Jesus means when He talks. Eat my flesh, Jesus said. Pluck out your eye, He said. Come on people, listen to me, I think Jesus is saying. Listen to me with
spiritual ears.
Zeek, don't go back and 'look' to your flesh, always look to Jesus the spiritual. Tis true, we should strive to get to the place where we know Jesus not according to the flesh or physical literal, but know Him only according to the spirit.
cp
Quote from: Zeek on January 31, 2009, 04:06:43 PMWhy do you keep seeing "flesh" in you??
Why did Paul see flesh in men?
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?If I'm walking in the Spririt then I am not fulfilling the lust of the flesh
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.But since I'm often still fulfilling the lust of the flesh, then I know from the above verse, that at thoses times at least, I am not walking in the Spirit and the victory in Romans 8 doesn't apply, has not arrived yet.
Ever see any variance or strife around here?
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies.Yes, God says those things in "past tense" because God has predesintated us to be conformed to the image of His Son. God declares the end from the beginning, calls those things which ARE NOT as though they were. It's a "done deal" even if not done in actuality yet.
Bob, Bob, Bob. That's good eating! :thumbsup:
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 05:19:05 PM
Bob, Bob, Bob. That's good eating! :thumbsup:
TY CP! :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Yes, Amen, bobf, He calls those things that are not as though they were. This is why the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, because the root of the spirit of prophecy IS to call those things that are not as though they were. So in essence, He was/is prophesying over us those things that are not YET, as though they were, because the Spirit dwells outside of time, and so in the Spirit, THEY ARE ALREADY.
We, on the other hand, at least 2/3 of us (body and soul), dwell in time. Standing in faith then, (to take the "promised land" = the promises of God/on the MOUNTAIN TOPS) is simply placing one foot on what God has spoken to us by His Spirit (outside of time), BELIEVING, and the natural will then manifest what was spoken by the Spirit, because heaven/Spirit rules in the affairs of men. This is bringing heaven/Spirit and earth/flesh into agreement/covenant, because everything is out of course. Didn't He say, fear not, it is your Father's good pleasure to bring you the kingdom?
Planets "walk" in courses (science calls them orbits), so did the priests serve in their courses, remitting sins by the laying on of hands, and then slaughtering the "offending" flesh, which in essence, was putting "one world" back on course, which is walking in the Spirit/right relationship with God.
What we many times do not realize that we are the Word made flesh also. That sounds shocking on the surface of it, but if you know that ALL the waters below the firmament (heaven) ARE the Word (which is the Spirit of God) made flesh, it's not so hard to fathom. ALL creation is His mirror, He poured Himself into it to create it, and therefore it cannot BE (manifest His nature and glory which are His attributes) anything less than what He IS (in the Spirit). Man was made in His image, but so was the creation, only it is fragments of His image, put there to witness some aspect of His glory, thus ALL the heavens (this is the first of the 3 heaven's Paul spoke of) declare (or show openly) His glory.
Didn't intend to go here this morning, but oh well :dontknow: :happygrin: Blessings....
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.
I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."
Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.
If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?
And Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?
But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for your good words.
I don't see how equating "sin dwelling in our flesh" with "the antichrist making the abomination in the sanctuary and proving that he is God."
Am I to flee to the mountains if I see the antichrist in my flesh? What good would that do for me? Since the antichrist would still be with me. I could never run far enough to get away from him.
If it's not a literal "temple" or a literal "man of lawlessness" sitting in a building, then it would not be a literal "fleeing to the mountains" either would it?
And Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?
But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.
I tend to agree with you. I have seen people go that far. Jesus was not a real man--he is a spiritual principal. Then my eyes roll back in my head. lol
All you have to do it look at the world to see these things playing themselves out in four dimensions.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 06:01:45 PMAnd Jesus, the disciples, and the Israelites are all just figments of Jesus' wild imagination. Wait, it wasn't Jesus who told the non-existent disciples to spiritually fee to mountains which are not mountains at all. That was just Matthew making up a story of kingdom truths so that we would see beyond the story to what might really be?
But cp says these things will literally come to pass. I agree with cp on that. If we are going to "spiritualize" everything concerning the antichrist, then we must "spiritualize everything in Matthew 24 and 25. I find that not very convincing.
Tony.... it does not follow that IF Christ chose to explain things in figures without explicitly saying so, that neither He nor His disciples existed.
:cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.
God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My :2c:.....Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 06:43:41 PM
:cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.
God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My :2c:.....Blessings.....
So do you think that is literally going to happen in this world? That some day the rod of authority will be given to the body of Christ? Or does that just happen inside the small group of people who grow up into the head, and it's a personal thing?
:cloud9: God's pattern is to deal with a firstfruits company in everything, so I think it is FIRST those that are going to be matured into being one with the Head, and then those that remain. Part of the confusion in the church IMO is in that they don't realize that there is a bridegroom company (those to be joined with the Head) AND a bride company ,ie. those He (in a many membered bridegroom company) is coming "back" for. They entered the ark in TWO'S, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and prophet, Head and Body, ie. two's are all over the place.
And notice the pattern that God always speaks to the man (Head/firstfruits/spirit) first, whereas as Satan always speaks to the woman (body/soul), bypassing the Head. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 06:48:36 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 06:43:41 PM
:cloud9: Maybe it's me, but I don't think anyone is denying the natural exists (it is the body and the feet, to be exact), but only that we are to focus on the SPIRITUAL (the Head which is Christ) applications, as hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh.
God is interested in building HIS kingdom IN US (as opposed to all the kingdoms men are building out there, including CHRISTIAN men), ruling and reigning IN US, before anything is going to be able to be ruled over "out there", as no one is going to get the rod of authority BUT HIM (fully matured) IN US. My :2c:.....Blessings.....
So do you think that is literally going to happen in this world? That some day the rod of authority will be given to the body of Christ? Or does that just happen inside the small group of people who grow up into the head, and it's a personal thing?
Molly, here is my main and only real point and I see it in Cards, Nathans, Bobs, Taffs and so many more. It is this, some things of Scripture will take place and have and are taking place in the flesh, literally. To me though, it just doesn't matter what happened 10 years ago or 20 or 1000 or 2000. It just doesn't. It doesn't affect my life what might happen in the flesh or physical 10 years from now or 20 or 1000 or 2000. What turns my crank is what is going on RIGHT NOW IN ME. This makes me sit up and take notice of every word, jot and tittle of Scripture if it is a writing from God to and about the making of me and all my fellow humans RIGHT NOW.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 07:02:53 PM
What turns my crank is what is going on RIGHT NOW IN ME. This makes me sit up and take notice of every word, jot and tittle of Scripture if it is a writing from God to and about the making of me and all my fellow humans RIGHT NOW. cp
:cloud9: AMEN cp, that is EXACTLY it, the whole thing is a love letter, and an ordering of our steps back to where we started, which is one with Him from the foundation of the world. He told me one day, that He was literally TURNING US INSIDE OUT, as one would a garment. He is on the inside, but soon to be on the outside, as He turns us inside out. The Word that is Spirit, is both inside us, and what turns the "crank", LOL....Blessings....
PS. Let me take that a little farther. His garment had no seams, ie. no beginning and no end = no time = Spirit and everlasting life. Our garment has a beginning and an end = woven into the fabric of time, and therefore subject to death. Here is the principle for the glorified body.
I will go as far as to say that even a person by the name of Jesus Christ being crucified by the Romans on trumped up charges really means very little to me unless there is more to it than that. Even 2 people running around naked in a garden, while making a good story, does not excite me very much, even if I am a bastard because of them. What can I do about what they did way back then? I can repent you might say? Why, because of what 2 people did so long ago that it's almost unbelievable? Repent of what? Being born?
It just makes no sense unless the Bible is a work about each individual life and our corporate creation life and what is occuring RIGHT NOW within all of creation. The physical assists this communication but only assists, it is not the goal nor the purpose of creation.
cp
My frustration is I think I see what I see from the outside and not the inside. Jesus walked in the spirit world while walking in this world of flesh. He did get frustrated and angry which seemed to be fleshly oriented but of course it never mastered Him like it does me. The first step to walking in the spirit world, I suppose, is to 'see' it so maybe I'm close but I feel very much on the outside looking in. I have brief moments where I seem to be in the spirit but they are brief.
Wife is mad at me now so maybe that's why I feel so in the flesh. Hmmmmmmm. Discord with a spouse is very frustrating, very.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 07:02:11 PM
:cloud9: God's pattern is to deal with a firstfruits company in everything, so I think it is FIRST those that are going to be matured into being one with the Head, and then those that remain. Part of the confusion in the church IMO is in that they don't realize that there is a bridegroom company (those to be joined with the Head) AND a bride company ,ie. those He (in a many membered bridegroom company) is coming "back" for. They entered the ark in TWO'S, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and prophet, Head and Body, ie. two's are all over the place.
And notice the pattern that God always speaks to the man (Head/firstfruits/spirit) first, whereas as Satan always speaks to the woman (body/soul), bypassing the Head. Blessings....
They also entered the ark in SEVENS (Genesis 7)
:cloud9: That they did..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 07:15:05 PM
I will go as far as to say that even a person by the name of Jesus Christ being crucified by the Romans on trumped up charges really means very little to me unless there is more to it than that. Even 2 people running around naked in a garden, while making a good story, does not excite me very much, even if I am a bastard because of them. What can I do about what they did way back then? I can repent you might say? Why, because of what 2 people did so long ago that it's almost unbelievable? Repent of what? Being born?
It just makes no sense unless the Bible is a work about each individual life and our corporate creation life and what is occuring RIGHT NOW within all of creation. The physical assists this communication but only assists, it is not the goal nor the purpose of creation.
cp
But cp, we wouldn't know what the real application of Christ's death for all is without words. It was words, literal words, in the evangel which tell us all the good news that has come and will yet come out of Christ's obedience to the cross.
The real spiritual application of what Christ did on the cross is that it saves all mankind. Of course you know that. I'm just thinking out loud.
Two naked snot nosed brats in the garden got us into this mess. Without them we would have no need for a Saviour. Their sin was necessary and justified. There was nothing hyper spiritual about what they did. There was no hidden esoteric meaning as to what they did. There was no secret which can only be gained by belonging to a club to find out what they did. They sinned. They disobeyed God. In fact, the cards were stacked against them so they would sin. The real spiritual lesson comes into play though when God slays the lamb to clothe the errent couple. The types, shadows and figures in that primal scene against the backdrop of a luscious garden with crisp fresh air unspoiled by death and disease are wonderful indeed!
Well I'm done with my 2 cents worth for now.
Tony
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 05:32:30 PM
:cloud9: Yes, Amen, bobf, He calls those things that are not as though they were. This is why the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, because the root of the spirit of prophecy IS to call those things that are not as though they were. So in essence, He was/is prophesying over us those things that are not YET, as though they were, because the Spirit dwells outside of time, and so in the Spirit, THEY ARE ALREADY.
We, on the other hand, at least 2/3 of us (body and soul), dwell in time. Standing in faith then, (to take the "promised land" = the promises of God/on the MOUNTAIN TOPS) is simply placing one foot on what God has spoken to us by His Spirit (outside of time), BELIEVING, and the natural will then manifest what was spoken by the Spirit, because heaven/Spirit rules in the affairs of men. This is bringing heaven/Spirit and earth/flesh into agreement/covenant, because everything is out of course. Didn't He say, fear not, it is your Father's good pleasure to bring you the kingdom?
Planets "walk" in courses (science calls them orbits), so did the priests serve in their courses, remitting sins by the laying on of hands, and then slaughtering the "offending" flesh, which in essence, was putting "one world" back on course, which is walking in the Spirit/right relationship with God.
What we many times do not realize that we are the Word made flesh also. That sounds shocking on the surface of it, but if you know that ALL the waters below the firmament (heaven) ARE the Word (which is the Spirit of God) made flesh, it's not so hard to fathom. ALL creation is His mirror, He poured Himself into it to create it, and therefore it cannot BE (manifest His nature and glory which are His attributes) anything less than what He IS (in the Spirit). Man was made in His image, but so was the creation, only it is fragments of His image, put there to witness some aspect of His glory, thus ALL the heavens (this is the first of the 3 heaven's Paul spoke of) declare (or show openly) His glory.
Didn't intend to go here this morning, but oh well :dontknow: :happygrin: Blessings....
Excellent thoughts Cardinal.... and I agree with you about the Word made flesh too.
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 07:02:53 PMMolly, here is my main and only real point and I see it in Cards, Nathans, Bobs, Taffs and so many more. It is this, some things of Scripture will take place and have and are taking place in the flesh, literally. To me though, it just doesn't matter what happened 10 years ago or 20 or 1000 or 2000. It just doesn't. It doesn't affect my life what might happen in the flesh or physical 10 years from now or 20 or 1000 or 2000. What turns my crank is what is going on RIGHT NOW IN ME. This makes me sit up and take notice of every word, jot and tittle of Scripture if it is a writing from God to and about the making of me and all my fellow humans RIGHT NOW.
cp
Amen. It wouldn't surpise me to see all kinds of literal fulfillment, but it also wouldn't change my viewpoint in the least.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 08:01:52 PMTwo naked snot nosed brats in the garden got us into this mess. Without them we would have no need for a Saviour.
I think we each got ourselves into our own mess "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2009, 07:08:22 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 07:02:53 PM
What turns my crank is what is going on RIGHT NOW IN ME. This makes me sit up and take notice of every word, jot and tittle of Scripture if it is a writing from God to and about the making of me and all my fellow humans RIGHT NOW. cp
:cloud9: AMEN cp, that is EXACTLY it, the whole thing is a love letter, and an ordering of our steps back to where we started, which is one with Him from the foundation of the world. He told me one day, that He was literally TURNING US INSIDE OUT, as one would a garment. He is on the inside, but soon to be on the outside, as He turns us inside out. The Word that is Spirit, is both inside us, and what turns the "crank", LOL....Blessings....
PS. Let me take that a little farther. His garment had no seams, ie. no beginning and no end = no time = Spirit and everlasting life. Our garment has a beginning and an end = woven into the fabric of time, and therefore subject to death. Here is the principle for the glorified body.
QuoteGod's pattern is to deal with a firstfruits company in everything, so I think it is FIRST those that are going to be matured into being one with the Head, and then those that remain. Part of the confusion in the church IMO is in that they don't realize that there is a bridegroom company (those to be joined with the Head) AND a bride company ,ie. those He (in a many membered bridegroom company) is coming "back" for. They entered the ark in TWO'S, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and prophet, Head and Body, ie. two's are all over the place.
And notice the pattern that God always speaks to the man (Head/firstfruits/spirit) first, whereas as Satan always speaks to the woman (body/soul), bypassing the Head. Blessings....
Ah, yes, that's beautiful--the friend of the bridegroom.
John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 08:01:52 PMTwo naked snot nosed brats in the garden got us into this mess. Without them we would have no need for a Saviour.
I think we each got ourselves into our own mess "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Bob, you spoke much to me in so few words. The idea that God is saying one guy is responsible for billions sinning has always struck me as wrong because even if everyone is saved in the end I always wonder about the suffering people go through. Can you imagine being Adam? I know a lot of people who would like to punch him in the schnoz and worse, yet if we see Adam as representing each person then there is no one individual to blame but all are to blame.
Now I hear Tony saying 'Then what about Jesus? Isn't it through just Him that all are saved?'
I would say that IMO Jesus was, is and always will be a real person yet more importantly to me He represents the Divine Saving Force (the Son of God) that is sent into me (world) to save me and more from myself.
cp
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 08:01:52 PMTwo naked snot nosed brats in the garden got us into this mess. Without them we would have no need for a Saviour.
I think we each got ourselves into our own mess "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Dear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -
In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.
It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."
Paul adds to his reason:
Rom 5:13-14 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;" (14) nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."
Paul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).
So this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.
Death entered into Cain and Able the moment they were born. The death process was already working in them causeing them to sin.
(YLT) because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Let's expand on the last part of the above verse:
"for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Quote from: bobf on January 31, 2009, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 08:01:52 PMTwo naked snot nosed brats in the garden got us into this mess. Without them we would have no need for a Saviour.
I think we each got ourselves into our own mess "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Dear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -
In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.
It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."
Paul adds to his reason:
Rom 5:13-14 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;" (14) nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."
Paul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).
So this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.
Death entered into Cain and Able the moment they were born. The death process was already working in them causeing them to sin.
(YLT) because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Let's expand on the last part of the above verse:
"for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.
Tony, you said....
It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."But it does doesn't it. Are not all people included in Adam? Kind of like all the kindreds of earth in Abraham.
And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curseth you: and
in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. gen12.3
cp
cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.
Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 11:33:52 PM
cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.
Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
Man . .. this thread has been busy! I hate to go home from work any more for fear that I'd miss getting in on something . .or getting something out of you guys.
Tony, our wonderful flatlander . . .(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related) you do struggle much with us don't you.
Did Jesus not tell Peter "flesh and blood has not taught you these things, but the Father has chosen to REVEAL them to you . . ." Jesus doesn't care in the least on what you were taught about who he is . . .he wants to know what has the Father "revealed" to your spirit? Does that sound like Peter needed to know a chapter and verse?
Time and time again, the pattern has always been, relationship births revelation, which natural works then manifest that revelation. But yet, we in our limited thinking and yes, there is an antichrist in every one of us . . .it's called my carnal mind . .it's that which is at emnity against God. Jesus said, you are either for him, or against him . . .now my mind convinces me I am for him . . .but my mind knows nothing about him . .only what another taught my mind to accept. It's not "the" truth, but instead, it's my "image" of what truth is.
But then, as I grow, even though it may have been based on natural reasoning up to now, my intent has never been evil, but always striving to be pure . .. and in that intent, I grow. And I come to the point where my maturity "outgrows" my intent. Because good intentions, in and of themselves, do not beget righteousness. God does not despise good intentions . .he matures them. I go from a two dimensional being, into a three dimensional . . .but my mind doesn't have the capacity for that kind of transformation . . .my personality can only take me so far . . .this isn't an intellectual transformation, but a spiritual one.
So here we are. On one side, you have those who've chosen to lay their mind down and let it die . . .so that they could then be led by their spirit . .and as a result, their mind resurrects, but in a different form. And as we continue to grow, our mind is still carnal, but it can grow . . .much like any serpent, in order for it to get bigger . .more mature, it must first SHED THE SKIN that it currently is living in.
There is an antichrist in me . . .there is a serpent, there is a dragon, a devil, and satan . .they are all one and the same. They are pictures of my mind, the mind of carnal man, and the characteristics of that man, the nature of that man . . .but in order to "see" this, there first must be a shedding of my natural reasoning.
As cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread? Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?" And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."
Everything is spiritual man. everything. Everything is literal to. But . . .again . . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then". The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong. And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!
And as it's been explained . . . emphasizing the natural just isn't why we're doing what we're doing. Taking what was written literally, and applying it literally, is not walking spiritually. "that's" why there's such a chasm. But as was also mention, feel free to continue to trip us up . . .because so many are getting so much more from this spiritual perspective because of your arguments, than they normally would if we just posted a revelation and moved on.
This is the meat of Truth . . . it needs to be chewed over and over before it can be swallowed, digested, and becomes a part of us.
There is a literal temple that was destroyed. 1st dimension
We are all living stones, fitted together that forms the Temple of God 2nd dimension
What? Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the holy ghost? 3rd dimension.
The word "temple" there that Paul uses, is the exact same Greek word that he uses in 2 Thesalonians when speaking of the abomination of desolation. The throne is in "me". Physically, it is beleived to be the pineal gland. . .but that's another thread.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 10:37:52 PMDear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.
Tony, it was not an assumption. The translation I quoted says exactly what I said. "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
QuoteLet's expand on the last part of the above verse: "for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.
In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.
That's one way to expand it. Every translation I read that expands it, expands it as "because all sinned" or equivalent.
- NKJV Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
- NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned
- NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
- ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
- NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
- RSV Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
- HNV Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned
QuoteIt does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."
That is exactly what all the translations that expand it say.
QuotePaul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).
Something is wrong with that theory Tony, God is taking sin into account here...
- Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
<br>
- Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
<br>
- Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
<br>
- Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
<br>
- Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
<br>
- Genesis 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
I would say that Paul is saying that even though the law had not been explcitly spelled out until Moses, death STILL reigned through sin.
QuoteSo this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.
For me, it would take alot more than what you presented to prove that the wages of death is sin.
Bob
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 01:14:04 AMAs cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread? Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?" And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."
I can attest to that. I was raised on literalism. Scriptures are literal unless not true to fact (bzzz circular logic). For example "out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters" we knew THAT wasn't literal. But that's about it.
It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM... I started seeing scriptures in a new light... I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was :icon_joker: nutso :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL
I really can't explain why I was so hungry for seeing things this way . . . well . .actually, yes I can . . .my spirit was recognizing spiritual truth . . .but my mind had never heard these things before, nor could it understand "how" people could take the exact same verse that I had in my Bible . . .and have a completely different understanding of it. And when they explained it . . . there would be a leaping in my womb . . .an excitement as understanding began to emerge. I asked that same question to those who introduced it to me . . ."where did you go to learn this stuff?" All I got from them was a smile.
They told me later, it comes through experience. They purposefully didn't answer my deluge of questions because they didn't want to shock me away from pursuing more. Little did they know . . . wild horses couldn't keep me away at that point. But for me, I was asking the questions out of hunger for more, not out of a hidden agenda to corner them and trip them up.
I sure have enjoyed you're guy's conversations.
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 01:57:33 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 01:14:04 AMAs cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread? Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?" And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."
I can attest to that. I was raised on literalism. Scriptures are literal unless not true to fact (bzzz circular logic). For example "out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters" we knew THAT wasn't literal. But that's about it.
It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM... I started seeing scriptures in a new light... I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was :icon_joker: nutso :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL
Yo Freako..Cards started a Que....want
to getin line, a Little joke we shared earlier :icon_flower:
What of your Gold is cankered....theres more thn a few in the New asya well Know :icon_flower:
Quoteout of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters
Gee I love that Scrip....the BIRTH of a New mind..HIS in US :icon_flower: NEW LIFE, NEW beginnings :icon_flower: SPEAKING TRUTH :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 01, 2009, 02:15:18 AM
Quoteout of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters
Gee I love that Scrip....the BIRTH of a New mind..HIS in US :icon_flower:
Hey Taf . . .why the belly? Why not the mouth? Why not the mind?
whoops...Go check..i ammended it some while ya posted this...
the Belly\Bowels are metaphors for OUR mind Bro..... :HeartThrob:
Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that? Why all the secrecy?
heart\mind...the Bowles of mercy and compassion :icon_flower:
Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly
er 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 31:20 [Is] Ephraim my dear son? [is he] a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
Lam 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I [am] in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home [there is] as death
Phm 1:12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:
Phm 1:20 Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 02:27:16 AM
Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that? Why all the secrecy?
:icon_flower:
mmm ,...Good question....never did figure that out :icon_flower:
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 01:57:33 AM
It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM... I started seeing scriptures in a new light... I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was :icon_joker: nutso :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL
:cloud9: I know the feeling well :winkgrin:. When I started this walk 23 years ago, I had one friend, who, He in His mercy, raised up with me. For the first year, we didn't know a living soul who was being shown the things we were. I kept saying, "They're (people in church) going to stone us for this stuff, maybe literally, you know that, right?" rofl.....
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2009, 10:47:59 PM
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [/i]
--Daniel 9
Molly,
What version are you using?
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading
-------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)
Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of
the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."
Quote from: Taffy on February 01, 2009, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 02:27:16 AM
Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that? Why all the secrecy?
:icon_flower:
mmm ,...Good question....never did figure that out :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Because it's the nature of kings to search out a matter? Gold isn't found on the surface. :winkgrin: (And I know you know this, just clownin')
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2009, 02:36:58 AM
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 01:57:33 AM
It was in the process of trying to confirm for sure if UR was true, I was studying OT scriptures alot, suddenly WHAM... I started seeing scriptures in a new light... I actually had to go look for anyone who might be seeing things the same way, because I thought I was :icon_joker: nutso :icon_jokercolor: or something... LOL
:cloud9: I know the feeling well :winkgrin:. When I started this walk 23 years ago, I had one friend, who, He in His mercy, raised up with me. For the first year, we didn't know a living soul who was being shown the things we were. I kept saying, "They're (people in church) going to stone us for this stuff, maybe literally, you know that, right?" rofl.....
Some 16 yrs since we left such habitats....many a Yr for sure Alone, weird..BUT never Lonely :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2009, 02:41:27 AM
Quote from: Taffy on February 01, 2009, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 02:27:16 AM
Well, golly Gee . . .if he meant my mind, why didn't he just say that? Why all the secrecy?
:icon_flower:
mmm ,...Good question....never did figure that out :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Because it's the nature of kings to search out a matter? Gold isn't found on the surface. :winkgrin: (And I know you know this, just clownin')
Of course matey...
I just love that Search ***OUT****, kINDA REMINDS me of work***** OUT ****** your salvation :winkgrin:
:icon_flower:...like From INSIDE out , Opposed to OUTSIDE IN... :icon_flower:
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 01:21:23 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 10:37:52 PMDear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.
Tony, it was not an assumption. The translation I quoted says exactly what I said. "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
QuoteLet's expand on the last part of the above verse: "for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.
In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.
That's one way to expand it. Every translation I read that expands it, expands it as "because all sinned" or equivalent.
- NKJV Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
- NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned
- NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
- ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
- NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
- RSV Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
- HNV Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned
QuoteIt does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."
That is exactly what all the translations that expand it say.
QuotePaul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).
Something is wrong with that theory Tony, God is taking sin into account here...
- Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
<br>- Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
<br>- Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
<br>- Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
<br>- Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
<br>- Genesis 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
I would say that Paul is saying that even though the law had not been explcitly spelled out until Moses, death STILL reigned through sin.
QuoteSo this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.
For me, it would take alot more than what you presented to prove that the wages of death is sin.
Bob
Bringing another previous conversation to the top . . . the argument Tony has in this is, he's taking the comments of others to mean that rather than death passing into all men through one man, death is passing into all men through the sins of all men . . .and then all these different translations were shared out . . .I just wanted to comment on what I see here with this. I can see what Tony is saying here (gasp!) that all sin has passed on to us through one man. I agree with that. I think the arguement is the result of another misplaced comma.
I don't see this saying that sin came into all men due to all men sinning . . .I see this saying DEATH came to all men, through all men sinning . . .missing the mark births separation from life. But the whole message is not about sin, it's not about the first Adam introducing the sin . .and it surely isn't about death. The whole purpose of the passage is to see that as much as sin has reached all mankind through one man . . .HOW MUCH MORE does life reach all mankind through the LAST ADAM's manifesting life on earth through the resurrection from death? The argument of sin seems to be taking away from the message of life . . .just my opinion is all.
Quote from: Taffy on February 01, 2009, 02:29:42 AM
Jer 31:20 [Is] Ephraim my dear son? [is he] a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
"...my bowels are troubled for him..." is really God saying, "...My womb trembles for him..." (Jr 31:20)
"He who is believing into me, according as the Scripture said, out of his
bowel shall gush rivers of living water." (Jn 7:38, CLV)
Knoch, in his Keyword Concordance indicates "bowel" and/or "womb" are interchangeable for Greek
koil i' a that he asigns CAVITY for the keyword. It is your "innermost chamber."
The image of God is Adam and then "male and female." Out of your WOMBS shall gush rivers of living water! It is upon the dry ground he promised to pour out rivers of mercy.
Quote from: reFORMer on February 01, 2009, 02:37:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2009, 10:47:59 PM
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [/i]
--Daniel 9
Molly,
What version are you using?
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading -------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)
Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."
That's the Holman Standard Christian Bible. Why? Do you think it's not correct? I just hadn't realized before that satan took Jesus to the pinnacle [wing/"kanaph"] of the temple and told him to throw himself down. This translation fits in perfectly with that.
What's satan doing hanging out on the pinnacle [highest point, as a wing] of the temple?
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 02:16:47 AM
Quote from: Taffy on February 01, 2009, 02:15:18 AM
Quoteout of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters
Gee I love that Scrip....the BIRTH of a New mind..HIS in US :icon_flower:
Hey Taf . . .why the belly? Why not the mouth? Why not the mind?
Because it has to do with birthing--childbirth.
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
--Gen 15
[out of thine own] "bowels"
H4578
מעה
mê‛eh
may-aw'
From an unused root probably meaning to be soft; used only in plural the intestines, or (collectively) the abdomen, figuratively sympathy; by implication a vest; by extension the stomach, the uterus (or of men, the seat of generation), the heart (figuratively): - belly, bowels, X heart, womb.
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2009, 03:54:41 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on February 01, 2009, 02:37:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2009, 10:47:59 PM
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [/i]
--Daniel 9
Molly,
What version are you using?
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading -------- of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)
Concordant Literal indicates they got the following bold "the sanctuary" from the Septuagint: "...on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations..."
That's the Holman Standard Christian Bible. Why? Do you think it's not correct? I just hadn't realized before that satan took Jesus to the pinnacle [wing/"kanaph"] of the temple and told him to throw himself down. This translation fits in perfectly with that.
What's satan doing hanging out on the pinnacle [highest point, as a wing] of the temple?
That's what Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians . . .satan . .the adversary . . .my mind . . at emnity, the adversary against the kingdom of the invisible realm. He's doing the same thing he did with Adam in the garden and he continues to do "in" all of us . . .he tries to lure us away from the tree of the Spirit and get us to eat from the tree of natural reasoning . .Adam chose knowledge, Jesus subdued knowledge and brought forth life.
Do you really think that a king of darkness, evil and filth had anything that would literally and physically tempt Jesus, who was light and life? Is that what the church has come to? That death really has a quality within that life would be tempted to be a part of?
To much is out of place with that principle. However, if you see that Jesus was in the flesh . . .just like any other man . . .then he also was given a natural mind . . .he had carnality in him just like any other man as well . . and it was that carnality in him that tried to tempt him into relinquishing his authority in the spirit over to the throne of his flesh . . . that just fits on so many levels.
the vagus nerve starts in the brain and transverses to the stomach. This article is very interesting, takes a bit to get through;
re; "out of the belly"
http://www.gem-international.org/dayspring/Men%20as%20Trees%20Walking.pdf
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 04:22:51 AM
To much is out of place with that principle. However, if you see that Jesus was in the flesh . . .just like any other man . . .then he also was given a natural mind . . .he had carnality in him just like any other man as well . . and it was that carnality in him that tried to tempt him into relinquishing his authority in the spirit over to the throne of his flesh . . . that just fits on so many levels.
:cloud9: Yes, it does, doesn't it? (smile) Blessings....
For me seeing Scripture must make sense and apply to my life in every way. I see God as being just fiesty and sly enough to tell me about myself in just such mysterious ways as He does in Scripture.
When I looked at Scripture mostly in a physical literal way there were just too many things that make for good history and bedtime stories but way too much that couldn't apply to me and all my fellow humans right now as I walk through this sleep we call life.
Death caused sin, sin caused death is a good example. It matters not to me if I look at this in a physical literal way because death and sin are here, nothing I can do about it. But within my being I see sin operating and I see death as a result. The Good News ofcourse is that I see a divine essence operating within too that is moving my conscience and feelings and thoughts and whatever and destroying sin and death, the works of the devil.
I like bedtime stories and history and even good Bible debate but when all is said and done I put such things on a 'shelf' and go on with my life while if I pick up something that tells me right now how to 'get to Heaven'. I grab on to it with a grip that is like holding on to a life saving device in a emergency.
Also, like I said before and Nathan brought forth again, questions from people like Tony are great as they bring so much out into the open that needs to be brought out. I also like to be proven wrong. I do not like waste in my life. Something that baffles me to no end is how when someone is shown that their reasonings have got to be faulty, they hang on to them anyway and can even ignore real contradictions and go have a ham sandwich. When I am presented with a contradiction to what I believe I literally cannot sleep or eat until I find some kind of real answer. Let me say, questions I put forth to myself like 'Was there a 'time' when there was nothing and if there was, how could something come out of nothing and if there was always something, how can that be'. Questions like these drive me nuts. By the way I have a kind of answer to this question so I do eat and sleep!
cp
:cloud9: I know what you mean cp. When something is bugging me that doesn't "compute", I usually can't get it off my mind until it's reconciled in light of everything else He's made life in me. I "chew the cud" over and over and over, until I wear myself out or He gives me the answer, whichever comes first, LOL. I waited 2 years on Him to tell me why the bones had life. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2009, 08:14:17 PM
:cloud9: I know what you mean cp. When something is bugging me that doesn't "compute", I usually can't get it off my mind until it's reconciled in light of everything else He's made life in me. I "chew the cud" over and over and over, until I wear myself out or He gives me the answer, whichever comes first, LOL. I waited 2 years on Him to tell me why the bones had life. Blessings....
Bones, life....tell me more, sounds intriguing.
I waited literally over 10 years to get an explanation of 'Many will say to me........and I will say, Depart....' and it's sister verse 'Why do you call me Lord and do not......'
cp
:cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?
Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...
Hi,
I have a little different outlook re; Jesus carnality being flesh.
He didn't have carnality in Him, because He was born from
above. What satan did was try and plant his carnality[beastly
thought] into the mind of Christ...there by sin entering into his
flesh.and outworking into action
We who were born in sin[or from below] have this carnality
already in our flesh..we inherited it from Adam..it was already
entered in to our flesh..so satan could draw out sin works from
our flesh by putting the thoughts[carnal] into our minds more
.easily.
Jesus could say in re to satan..he has nothing in me.
That temptation came without..just as in the garden it was
without their bodies to start with...then entered in when the
thought was planted and accepted and acted on.
Adam and Eve were 'naked" but not aware...they were
vulnerable to the entry of corruption into them..not clothed
with the Glory of God,INCORRUPTION of their vessels.
God did this on purpose to serve as a lure for satan..for
satan would have to leave the incorruptible heavenly realm to
work out his evil desires of his heart on vulnerable vessels to
carry out his evil works.Michael and His angels sucessfully
fought off the thoughts of 'accusing' mankind before God..
[Jude 9,Rev 12;7] and threw satan out.
Mankinds corruptible flesh is neutral[weak] Not so the
heavenly bodies..negative spirit force does not work through
them or on them..they must leave their proper dwelling places
to do evil through a vessel that will accept the negative.
You may ask, what about satans angels..you see satan is not
of God's seed..God's seed can not sin...God put this negative
spirit force in an incorruptible vessel..the vessel looked just
like God's other angelic sons,satan is death,the opposite of
God. God also placed His seed in corruptible vessels on earth..
that can accept both positive and negative spirit motivation.
This Holy seed can not bear fruit until it falls to the
earth and dies any fruit of that vessel comes from a source
other than that dormant seed that is germinating. So therefore
either it is God's Holy spirit doing the works in you,or satans
negative spirit working in you. He keeps us blameless and
spotless in this way.It is how He will remove all shame
of sin from mankind.We will all praise Him for this work of HIS
HANDS FOR WE ARE WONDERFULLY AND FEARFULLY MADE.
Jesus Christ despised [Hebrews 12;2]the shame that death
should also touch his vessel on the cross. The shame of our
nakedness is covered by Christ's garment now,but with
'the BEST ROBE' when we rise to heaven,our incorruptible
new spirit body in God's Glory
Fallen man's flesh has negative in it already..and easily is
drawn out by negative spirit. Jesus flesh[being without
negative in it[sinless] was not drawn out as easily..but more
able to repel it[more resistant due to such POSITIVE SPIRIT
FORCE. We have a 'token' of that spirit..which increases our
resistance and helps us in this spiritual battle.
He came in flesh, and did face temptation by satan and
overcome..yes,His flesh was subjected unto death on the cross
but He as representantive of the spirit man born from above..
also realized mankind dwelt in a weaker vessel.
This is part of the 'mystery' that was spoken of regarding
the union of husband and wife..dwelling with them in
knowledge,as a weaker vessel.
Bringing 'every thought' into subjection to Christ goes a long
way to helping us refuse these negative spiritual imputs.
Being 'Born from Above" as the Lamb of God..Father
guarded him with angels..descending and ascending...
to keep Him on every side and prepare Him in everyway
to do the will of His Father and break up the works of satan.
Due to this fact,satan tried to get him to test God in
the matter on His ability to keep him.It was really
satan himself testing God's ability to keep him.
He was led of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted..
He instructs us to pray...lead me NOT into temptation
He was in want of bread during His temptation..but
during the 40 days of fasting prescribed He knew He should
live by every word from Father,after temptation angels came at
the appointed time and ministered to him.
Satan bribed Him with all the kingdoms of the world,which
was His inheritance anyway..in Father's time...NOW, for one
act of worship..one compromise of His Father's will...
In SOS she comes walking up out of the wilderness
leaning on her beloved...we must not lean on our own
understanding...He has shown us the proper response
to satan's temptation in the wilderness..that comes after we
receive the Holy spirit. There may be a time when we are
in 'want' of spiritual bread or direction.At these times..stand
with what you have already been given. Wait on the Lord..
do not turn 'stones' into bread[for not a stone will be left
upon a stone] His Holy spirit/angels will come and feed you
spiritually.
Do not use the spiritual gift in you to receive all the
Kingdoms of the world,and the glory of them.Leave off seeking
glory in this world. Your Father will do all these things He
promised in His own time. Don't you realize the world will hate
you,just like they did Jesus?.Unless you compromise,and be
like the world..then the world will love it's own.Babylon
sought the glory of all the kingdoms of the earth.
Do not 'test' the Lord in the wilderness of this earth
for in actuality it is satan 'testing' God's ability to break
up his works.
Rev 13 The Beast to Which the Dragon gives his power...
is none other that satan planting his evil desires/thoughts in
mankinds flesh.........and he had power to give life to the image
of the beast .
Rev14 The Lamb and His company
and they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts and the elders, and no man
could learn that song but the 144,000,which were redeemed
from the earth ...and in their mouth was found no GUILE; for
they are without fault before the throne of GOD .
These comprise the New Heavens that descend ,
these minister unto us the truths of God..and give us God and
Jesus mind[trUTH/understanding] thoughts through the power
of His Holy
Spirit...the city has four corners in the earth and four corners
in heaven..it gathers into ONE HOLY CITY- NEW HEAVEN AND
NEW EARTH...all that has been scattered by the wrath of God
that was upon the old heavens and old earth.
The accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out
His fiery WORD
has burned up and annihilated the lie of carnal/beastly
understanding[law/condemnation/sacrifice of animals]
The New Heavens Proclain the Love and Mercy of God and
Jesus for mankind and proclaim their healing, their eating
from the tree of LIFE proceeding out of the throne of God.
And of God giving them the free gift of eternal lfe
Yes, when His children rise to Glory..there will be no shame
Joel 2;25 And I will restore to you the years that the locusts hath eaten,the cankerworm and the caterpillar and the palmer-
worm, my great army which I sent among you.
and you shall eat in plenty,and be satisfied,and praise the name of the Lord your God,that has dealt wondrously of you;
and my people shall never be ashamed.
Now we are clothed in Christs garment to cover our nakedness,it has even been declared to us by the Holy spirit
that all mankind is to be clothed in it. We are reckoned spotless
and blameless in heaven through Faith in His son.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2009, 09:23:38 PM
:cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?
Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...
:thumbsup: love that sis, thanks, no flesh yahoo :happygrin:
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 01:21:23 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 10:37:52 PMDear Bob, Scripture does not agree with that assumption.
Tony, it was not an assumption. The translation I quoted says exactly what I said. "...and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
Bob, there is an elipsis after "because." The elipsis is "of death," in other words: "because of death, all sinned."
For instance, the Concordant Literal has it:
Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind,
on which all sinned -"
Eph . .hw . pantec. . hamarton
on . which . . all . . . sinned
The elipsis above is "the basis of," since "death is the nearest antecedent to "death passed through into all mankind" the most logical way to look at it is "death passed through into all mankind, on the basis of which all sinned."
Paul further proves his point concerning this in Romans 5:19 of Romans by stating:
For even as, through the disobedience of the one man,
the many were made sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be made just.
It doesn't say they first chose to sin and then death passed through into them. It says that due to what Adam did, they were made sinners. How were they made sinners? Death passed through into them due to what Adam did in 5:12.
It also does not say that all mankind first chose to sin and due to that they were made sinners.
Bob, if Romans 5:12 says "all die due to all sinning then Paul's whole point is lost in 5:12.
QuoteLet's expand on the last part of the above verse: "for that all did sin." Expanded: [and it is] for [that reason of death passing through] that all did sin.
In other words, sin entered the world when Adam sinned. After Adam sinned death began its process in Adam. And since all mankind came from Adam, death passed through into all mankind. Based upon death passing through into all mankind, all sinned.
Bob replied:
QuoteThat's one way to expand it. Every translation I read that expands it, expands it as "because all sinned" or equivalent.
- NKJV Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
- NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned
- NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
- ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
- NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
- RSV Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
- HNV Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned
QuoteTony wrote: It does not say that "all sinned and due to that, death passed through into all mankind."
QuoteBob wrote: That is exactly what all the translations that expand it say.
That doesn't mean they are correct.
King James has:
(KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Where "for that" means "for that [reason] all have sinned."
(YLT) because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that [reason] all did sin;
What is "that reason"? What is "for that"? "for that death passed through into all men, all have sinned."
It says death passed through into all mankind in 5:12 and in 5:18 it says that all mankind were MADE sinners due to what Adam did. It doesn't say they chose to become sinners due to what Adam did.
QuoteTony wrote: Paul is saying that sin was not even being taken into account because the law of Moses was not given yet, nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses (before the law was given).
QuoteBob's reply: Something is wrong with that theory Tony, God is taking sin into account here...
- Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
<br>- Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
<br>- Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
<br>- Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
<br>- Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
<br>- Genesis 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
No, nothing is wrong with Paul's thought. Obviously the above verses you quoted does not contradict what Paul wrote in 5:13,14. obviously Paul knew all about all the people who were killed in the Old Testament including the flood in Noah's day. Those people were sinning due to death operating in them. They couldn't be dying because they were breaking the law of Moses because the law of Moses was given many years later.
Paul stated:
"for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;" nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."
(Rom 5:13-14)
Bob, Paul just said that until law came by Moses, sin was in the world. People were sinning. Yet sin was not taken into account where there is no law. In other words, the just penalty according to the law was the death penalty for Cain slaying Able. Yet God just told him he would be a wonderer. Yet Cain and all those people still died. They didn't die because they sinned. They sinned because they had death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
God didn't kill the Sodomites due to breaking the law of Moses since the law was not given yet. So what law could they break?
QuoteBob wrote: I would say that Paul is saying that even though the law had not been explcitly spelled out until Moses, death STILL reigned through sin.
You reversed the order. Actually in 5:21 it says taht "Sin reigns in death." It is in the realm of death that Sin, as an evil monarch which all mankind are enslaved to, reigns.
QuoteTony wrote: So this proves that death did not come because everyone sins but due to Adam's transgression.
QuoteFor me, it would take alot more than what you presented to prove that the wages of death is sin.
Bob
Paul did not say "The wages of death is sin." He said "the rations of sin is death."
Concerning "the wages of sin is death", in Romans 6:20 all are
slaves of Sin. Slaves do not receive wages but rations. It is more properly "The rations of sin is death." Slaves didn't work for wages but for rations. And this has to do with the walk of the saint, not the sinner.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2009, 09:23:38 PM
:cloud9: Wow. Now THAT'S diligence, LOL. He's never given me any revelation on the scriptures you've quoted. But what He gave me was in reply to my bugging Him about why when they threw the dead boy on the bones, did he spring to life? What was it about the bones?
Then one night, for no apparent reason, while praying for someone at bible study, He dropped the reason into my spirit. It was because (spiritually speaking) there was NO FLESH on them. Once the circumcision of our hearts removes the flesh, we are as those bones, then bone of His bone. Then when He completely clothes us with HIS flesh, we are flesh of His flesh = glorified body. Blessings...
Cardinal, that is rich. Thanks! You just made my day.
:cloud9: You're welcome pneuma ......good to see you around these parts again. And so are you Tony.....And Sheila, that was some deep meat; gonna have to read that several times, but I like what I "hear" so far. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: SheilaGod also placed His seed in corruptible vessels on earth..
that can accept both positive and negative spirit motivation.
This Holy seed can not bear fruit until it falls to the
earth and dies any fruit of that vessel comes from a source
other than that dormant seed that is germinating. So therefore
either it is God's Holy spirit doing the works in you,or satans
negative spirit working in you. He keeps us blameless and
spotless in this way.It is how He will remove all shame
of sin from mankind.
This is something that I have been struggling with and I've come to the same conclusion, too--namely that man is a carrier of spirit, that he does not have his own, other than that spirit which gives the life of breathing in and out, which all the animals have. But, he is either carrying the Holy Spirit or the spirit of demons, which is why when Jesus swept the house clean of demons, twice as many demons came back--because the house was now clean and empty. Thanks.
The question is--can the seed of Christ fall to the earth and die, while we are yet alive? Doesn't Paul say we are buried with Jesus in his death? Therefore, couldn't we be also resurrected with him while we live?
:cloud9: Without going into any elaborate explanations at this time, I just want to say an emphatic, YES. Sheila, where are you......
Re Can the seed of Christ fall to the earth and die,
while we are yet alive. Yes..that is what He did when He lay
down His life on the cross for His freinds..he did it for our
benefit.He had the life in Himself, we don't because the seed
is dormant til the death of our corrupt flesh. That is why He said we
must eat his flesh and drink his blood. His seed..when it raised
up to heaven,bore much fruit[even the Holy spirit which was
poured out]on our flesh
We don;t have any righteous works of our own down here..His
are credited to us. In the same manner sinworks worked
through our body are credited to satan in the judgement.
Rev 22;11 He that is unjust,let him be unjust still and he which is filthy let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous let him be righteous still and He that is Holy let him be holy still.
It is part of the mystery of godliness and lawlessness that is revealed. It is not that Jesus is saying 'to bad for those sinners'
We can have life NOW through partakings with Christ's spirit
but it is Christ's life in us, not our own at present..we have
no righteousness in our own flesh..because sin dwells in it
it is as filthy rags we are clothed in. Righteousness is credited through FAITH in His son and the spirit of Love motivating us
to good works
There is Good and there is Evil..and God;s Judgement
is just. When we jdge by appearance instead of God's judgement we can call unclean what God has cleansed.
Man has truly ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil..and it brings the death of our flesh..for good
and evil entered into our flesh from that fruit of disobediance.
The tree of Life is not like that..Our Father has life in Himself
andso does His seed..it is eternal and can not sin..it may
be planted in a clay vessel[dust of the earth] that may
also receive seed of the enemy[parable wheat/weeds]
But when it dies and is raised up to Heaven it bears good fruit.
Certain revelations Father saved back for the end, He has often not let his right hand know what His left hand has been doing. At this time He wants children of understanding
Son of Man ,Seed of the Woman]bespeaks of the incorruptible seed in man that rises up unto heaven. As in Adam all die,so to in Christ all shall live..it is this Holy seed that rises up and
shows itself incorruptible..the progency of God..death
has no hold on it..though it must fall to the earth and die.
Hope I was clear enough
Some will say "what about Rev 22;12 and behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be"
First man Adam..satan/sin works.=.death
Christ= God's works of the tree of LIFE=eternal life
these are the only two works and their rewards
Quote from: SheilaThat is why He said we
must eat his flesh and drink his blood. His seed..when it raised
up to heaven,bore much fruit[even the Holy spirit which was
poured out]on our flesh
So could we then say that Abraham, the former pagan gentile, has been given the Holy Spirit and the resurrected Christ so that he could now believe and obey God?
Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.That Abram not only has the seed but that it is germinated/resurrected at his meeting with with the High Priest, Melchizedek? Because how can man have righteousness without Christ?
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. --Gen 14
Oddly enough, the way that sentence is written in the KJV, the descriptor, "possessor of heaven and earth," qualifies Abram, not God.
Yes, I would say so.
Actually Abraham typified God as the Father of all.With progency as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven.
And Melchezidek represented Michael the Archangels ministry
of heaven. Rev 12;7 Jude 9 Dan 10;13,10;21 and 12;1
Sheila
Genesis 15;13
and he said unto Abram,know of a surety that thy seed
shall be a stranger in a land not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them 400 years. And also, that nation whom they shall serve,will I judge, and afterward will they come out with great substance.
this is a type of Father and His seed,progency..being sojourners
and strangers in this earth..and serving the kingdom of darkness and being afflicted by the kingdom of darkness
Man Pneuma, good to see ya. What do ya think of all our madness here? Your words are always fuel for growth.
cp
"...for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless, death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be." (Rom 5:13-14)
If in the impression made from the die, "...death reigns...over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam," then, by the original from which the impression was made, life shall reign over those also who do not walk in the likeness of the obedience of Christ Jesus!
Quote from: reFORMer on February 02, 2009, 06:35:01 AM
"...for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless, death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be." (Rom 5:13-14)
If in the impression made from the die, "...death reigns...over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam," then, by the original from which the impression was made, life shall reign over those also who do not walk in the likeness of the obedience of Christ Jesus!
Now that went right over my head like a stealth fighter on a warm summer night in Baghdad. LOL. :laughing7:
Types, figures, shadows . . . "Adam, who is a type of Him who is about to be." How is Adam a type of Christ? What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects all mankind. See Romans 5:18,19.
Mankind did not sin in the likeness of Adam's sin. In other words, mankind was not given the charge "thou shalt not eat" yet Paul said that all mankind are dying anyway. How did Paul account for this? Death. Death passed through into all mankind and it is "because [of this] all sinned."
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 01:14:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 11:33:52 PM
cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.
Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
Man . .. this thread has been busy! I hate to go home from work any more for fear that I'd miss getting in on something . .or getting something out of you guys.
Tony, our wonderful flatlander . . .(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related) you do struggle much with us don't you.
Did Jesus not tell Peter "flesh and blood has not taught you these things, but the Father has chosen to REVEAL them to you . . ." Jesus doesn't care in the least on what you were taught about who he is . . .he wants to know what has the Father "revealed" to your spirit? Does that sound like Peter needed to know a chapter and verse?
Time and time again, the pattern has always been, relationship births revelation, which natural works then manifest that revelation. But yet, we in our limited thinking and yes, there is an antichrist in every one of us . . .it's called my carnal mind . .it's that which is at emnity against God. Jesus said, you are either for him, or against him . . .now my mind convinces me I am for him . . .but my mind knows nothing about him . .only what another taught my mind to accept. It's not "the" truth, but instead, it's my "image" of what truth is.
But then, as I grow, even though it may have been based on natural reasoning up to now, my intent has never been evil, but always striving to be pure . .. and in that intent, I grow. And I come to the point where my maturity "outgrows" my intent. Because good intentions, in and of themselves, do not beget righteousness. God does not despise good intentions . .he matures them. I go from a two dimensional being, into a three dimensional . . .but my mind doesn't have the capacity for that kind of transformation . . .my personality can only take me so far . . .this isn't an intellectual transformation, but a spiritual one.
So here we are. On one side, you have those who've chosen to lay their mind down and let it die . . .so that they could then be led by their spirit . .and as a result, their mind resurrects, but in a different form. And as we continue to grow, our mind is still carnal, but it can grow . . .much like any serpent, in order for it to get bigger . .more mature, it must first SHED THE SKIN that it currently is living in.
There is an antichrist in me . . .there is a serpent, there is a dragon, a devil, and satan . .they are all one and the same. They are pictures of my mind, the mind of carnal man, and the characteristics of that man, the nature of that man . . .but in order to "see" this, there first must be a shedding of my natural reasoning.
As cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread? Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?" And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."
Everything is spiritual man. everything. Everything is literal to. But . . .again . . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then". The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong. And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!
And as it's been explained . . . emphasizing the natural just isn't why we're doing what we're doing. Taking what was written literally, and applying it literally, is not walking spiritually. "that's" why there's such a chasm. But as was also mention, feel free to continue to trip us up . . .because so many are getting so much more from this spiritual perspective because of your arguments, than they normally would if we just posted a revelation and moved on.
This is the meat of Truth . . . it needs to be chewed over and over before it can be swallowed, digested, and becomes a part of us.
There is a literal temple that was destroyed. 1st dimension
We are all living stones, fitted together that forms the Temple of God 2nd dimension
What? Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the holy ghost? 3rd dimension.
The word "temple" there that Paul uses, is the exact same Greek word that he uses in 2 Thesalonians when speaking of the abomination of desolation. The throne is in "me". Physically, it is beleived to be the pineal gland. . .but that's another thread.
Dear Nathan, if flesh and blood has taught you nothing, then maybe that is the reason you believe the way you do. Think about that.
Eph 4:8-16 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,
and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (11)
And He gave some,
apostles; and some,
prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some,
pastors and
teachers; (12)
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (13)
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Nathan, what do you see in the above list of those whom Christ gives to the body of believers? They are flesh and blood. If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.
Maybe this is why many at Tentmaker have not "grown into the unity of the faith" etc.?
Nathan you wrote:
QuoteEverything is spiritual man. everything. Everything is literal to. But . . .again . . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then". The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong. And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!
Nathan, you really hurt my feelings with what you said above. That is so far from the truth that I am just amazed you even said it. You really think that is the reason I'm here is just to corner you to say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!? Did the spirit reveal that to you or your own flesh and blood?
But that's O.K. they told Jesus He had a demon too.
Tony
Quote from: claypot on February 02, 2009, 06:13:54 AM
Man Pneuma, good to see ya. What do ya think of all our madness here? Your words are always fuel for growth.
cp
Hi Clay, good to see you also, I have not read the whole thread bro (not much time as I went back to college to enter into the justice field and it keeps me very busy) just the last two pages so I don't know about all the madness :happygrin: but you know I see things in both the natural and spiritual aspect and the spiritual aspect outshines the natural as it is closer to the heart of what God is saying to His people.
Godbless
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 03:07:42 AM
Genesis 15;13
and he said unto Abram,know of a surety that thy seed
shall be a stranger in a land not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them 400 years. And also, that nation whom they shall serve,will I judge, and afterward will they come out with great substance.
this is a type of Father and His seed,progency..being sojourners
and strangers in this earth..and serving the kingdom of darkness and being afflicted by the kingdom of darkness
QuoteActually Abraham typified God as the Father of all.With progency as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven.
Is Abraham the father of all or of many?
Genesis 17:4
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.That says 'many nations' will come out of Abraham, not all nations, at least we can't assume all nations, given that word.
[father of]
"many" [nations]
H1995
המן המון
hâmôn hâmôn
haw-mone', haw-mone'
From H1993;
a noise, tumult,
crowd; also disquietude, wealth: - abundance,
company, many, multitude, multiply, noise, riches, rumbling, sounding, store, tumult.
Then we see that God winnows it down, bringing the bloodline to Jesus through Isaac, through Jacob, through Judah. Of necessity, more and more have to be left out as we follow the generations through to Jesus.
Then we see it open up again, as Paul tells us the line is through Isaac, not by the blood, but by the promise.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.So again we have the concept of a multitude possible, and we see them standing before the throne--
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;But is that 'all'?
Does 'of all nations' mean 'all people of all nations'?
Molly, excellent observations!
You wrote:
Father of many nations.
Rev. 7:9 "of all nations."
Very good observations.
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on February 02, 2009, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2009, 01:14:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 11:33:52 PM
cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.
Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.
Man . .. this thread has been busy! I hate to go home from work any more for fear that I'd miss getting in on something . .or getting something out of you guys.
Tony, our wonderful flatlander . . .(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related) you do struggle much with us don't you.
Did Jesus not tell Peter "flesh and blood has not taught you these things, but the Father has chosen to REVEAL them to you . . ." Jesus doesn't care in the least on what you were taught about who he is . . .he wants to know what has the Father "revealed" to your spirit? Does that sound like Peter needed to know a chapter and verse?
Time and time again, the pattern has always been, relationship births revelation, which natural works then manifest that revelation. But yet, we in our limited thinking and yes, there is an antichrist in every one of us . . .it's called my carnal mind . .it's that which is at emnity against God. Jesus said, you are either for him, or against him . . .now my mind convinces me I am for him . . .but my mind knows nothing about him . .only what another taught my mind to accept. It's not "the" truth, but instead, it's my "image" of what truth is.
But then, as I grow, even though it may have been based on natural reasoning up to now, my intent has never been evil, but always striving to be pure . .. and in that intent, I grow. And I come to the point where my maturity "outgrows" my intent. Because good intentions, in and of themselves, do not beget righteousness. God does not despise good intentions . .he matures them. I go from a two dimensional being, into a three dimensional . . .but my mind doesn't have the capacity for that kind of transformation . . .my personality can only take me so far . . .this isn't an intellectual transformation, but a spiritual one.
So here we are. On one side, you have those who've chosen to lay their mind down and let it die . . .so that they could then be led by their spirit . .and as a result, their mind resurrects, but in a different form. And as we continue to grow, our mind is still carnal, but it can grow . . .much like any serpent, in order for it to get bigger . .more mature, it must first SHED THE SKIN that it currently is living in.
There is an antichrist in me . . .there is a serpent, there is a dragon, a devil, and satan . .they are all one and the same. They are pictures of my mind, the mind of carnal man, and the characteristics of that man, the nature of that man . . .but in order to "see" this, there first must be a shedding of my natural reasoning.
As cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread? Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?" And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."
Everything is spiritual man. everything. Everything is literal to. But . . .again . . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then". The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong. And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!
And as it's been explained . . . emphasizing the natural just isn't why we're doing what we're doing. Taking what was written literally, and applying it literally, is not walking spiritually. "that's" why there's such a chasm. But as was also mention, feel free to continue to trip us up . . .because so many are getting so much more from this spiritual perspective because of your arguments, than they normally would if we just posted a revelation and moved on.
This is the meat of Truth . . . it needs to be chewed over and over before it can be swallowed, digested, and becomes a part of us.
There is a literal temple that was destroyed. 1st dimension
We are all living stones, fitted together that forms the Temple of God 2nd dimension
What? Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the holy ghost? 3rd dimension.
The word "temple" there that Paul uses, is the exact same Greek word that he uses in 2 Thesalonians when speaking of the abomination of desolation. The throne is in "me". Physically, it is beleived to be the pineal gland. . .but that's another thread.
Dear Nathan, if flesh and blood has taught you nothing, then maybe that is the reason you believe the way you do. Think about that.
Eph 4:8-16 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (11) And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Nathan, what do you see in the above list of those whom Christ gives to the body of believers? They are flesh and blood. If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.
Maybe this is why many at Tentmaker have not "grown into the unity of the faith" etc.?
Nathan you wrote:
QuoteEverything is spiritual man. everything. Everything is literal to. But . . .again . . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then". The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong. And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!
Nathan, you really hurt my feelings with what you said above. That is so far from the truth that I am just amazed you even said it. You really think that is the reason I'm here is just to corner you to say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!? Did the spirit reveal that to you or your own flesh and blood?
But that's O.K. they told Jesus He had a demon too.
Tony
First of all Tony . . .I never said that flesh and blood teaches you nothing. This is the pattern you seem to always have . . .you have an image of what you think was said when that's not what was said at all. What I said was . . .JESUS was the one who stated "Flesh and blood has not taught you THIS" The "this" is . .the revelation of who Jesus is. He is a spirit . .as are we, but seeing him as the Christ, the Son of the ever-living God is not something that is taught by natural reasoning men, but it's what is revealed to us through our relationship with the Father.
My understanding is . . .flesh and blood (natural reasoning) can not teach spiritual truths. They are of a different nature than knowledge about God. Knowledge "about" God can be taught, but spiritual truth is planted in seed form into our minds . .which matures on it's own with no interference from me . . . the mind is a womb . .it's purpose is to birth understanding . .not to conjure up an image on it's own . .which if left to it's own devices, does just that. Which for me, is why 2 Corinthians 10, I believe it is, tells us that we're to "take captive" our thoughts . . .keep them in check . . .
I still teach all the time, but what I teach is the patterns I see . . . and even then there's no guarantee that others will see the patterns. It is only through grace that anyone sees "anything" in the first place. But my attempt is to emphasize the pattern and trust the Spirit to bring the revelation of what the pattern is indicating.
The roles given as gifts as you quoted are those that are "in" the spirit and assist in the maturing of the saints. Scripture also states in Hebrews that the time will come when teaching will no longer be necessary because the Spirit will be the one doing ALL the revealing. So yeah, when you have infant, toddler and adolesent believers, there is a need for teaching . . .but once they spiritually enter into the person of rest themselves, they are then directed and led wholly by the Spirit and not by the teaching of another.
And second . . .
The reason why I shared "my opinion" of your approach is because I follow your conversations just like I read everyone else's. You can tell when someone is asking questions because they are hungry for more of what you have, and when someone is asking questions because they don't believe what you have to be true and accurate. You pretty much always come across to me as the latter because you seem to try to always counter everything that gets posted on a dimensional tone.
Your responses become critical toward the "idea" that things could be taken any other way than how you portray them to be. I was not condemning you. . .and I'm still not. But you've written enough posts for one to be able to get an idea of where your coming from. Even at the end of your post to me, there is a jab implying that you liken yourself to Christ . . .and that I accused you of having a demon . . . (note, I said you're "implying" those things).
You said
If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.I believe this is exactly why you have such a huge number of denominations out there . . .and even if you selected "one" denomination and visited each and every church in that denomination, you'd find that even though they are of the same denomination, they don't have the same exact belief within their own system either.
Men are "of" flesh and blood . .otherwise they wouldn't be men. But the difference is, we, as men (spiritually speaking . .that includes women to of course) are called to walk in the spirit. By "flesh and blood" I am not saying that you should not listen to people at all . . .I'm saying that it's natural reasoning trying to teach spiritual truth that creates the problems.
Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?
How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2009, 03:50:49 PM
Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?
How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?
Therein lies the heart of the problem as to those who post here.
P.S., I hope you don't accuse me of being a mean person and jumping at what you said to make you look bad, but the sword cuts both ways. You stated: "Jesus is a spirit and so are we." Jesus is not a spirit and neither are we. This is just another of the problems I see here. People who think they are being taught by the spirit and are not.
Luke 24:39 Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for
a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything.
The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
While Jesus is not a spirit, the declarationns or words which He spoke and which were written down are spirit and life. And how can we be vivified or made alive in our spirit if we don't receive the words He spoke, words which He also gave to the apostle Paul?
I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the question. It is just that I am thinking out loud.
Anyway, peace to you Nathan. I don't wish you ill in anything. :icon_flower:
Well,Tony
Ezekiel 34 explains exactly how I feel about it..
I WILL PASTOR THEM ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL...
when you see the abomination..standing in a Holy place
flee to the mountains
Rev 18;4 Come out of her my people.....
Jude 10 yet these men speak abusively against whatever
they do not understand........ they have rushed for profit
into Balaam's error.........12 shepherds who feed only
themselves....16 these men are grumblers and fault-
finders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast
about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
All of the above is why I do not attend 'church" as you call it..
to me the church is this ' see, I lay a stone in Zion
a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in
him will never be put to shame.
2 Thess 2; The man of lawlessness
I think about the 'Church" and the inquisition and the
crusades...and how they sat in the temple and professed
to speak for God as God's representative while they
worked out their evil agendas
there have been many false christs and false prophets
wolves in sheeps clothing
Matthew 24;45 Who then, is the faithful and wise servant,
whom the master has put in charge of the servants of his
household to give them their food at the proper time?
It will be good for that servant whose master finds him
doing so when he returns, I tell you the truth he will put him
in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is
wicked, and says to himself,'My Master is staying away a long
time, and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to
eat and drink with drunkards. The Master of that servant
will come on a day when he does not expect him,
and at an hour he is not aware of.
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the
hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'
what was Balaam's error?
Israel said 'we will travel along the King's highway until
we have passed through your territory"
But God said 'Do not go with them, you must not put a curse
on those people,because they are blessed
When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword, she turned off the road into a field,
Balaam beat her to get her back on the road....
when the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it, so he beat her again
when the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, she lay down under Balaam,and he was angry and beat her with his staff
...then the Lord opened the donkeys mouth,and she said to Balaam,'WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU TO MAKE YOU BEAT ME THESE THREE TIMES?"
Balaam answered, 'You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand I would kill you right now"
.... then the Lord opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angwel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn....
So he bowed low and fell face down...
Numbers 25;3 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods.So the people ate and bowed down before these gods.
So Israel joined in worshipping the Baal of Peor.
...and the Lord's anger burned against them.
Tony, the god those people worship..in 'church'
the image they have, is not the God I have come to know.
Sheila
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2009, 03:50:49 PM
My understanding is . . .flesh and blood (natural reasoning) can not teach spiritual truths. They are of a different nature than knowledge about God. Knowledge "about" God can be taught, but spiritual truth is planted in seed form into our minds . .which matures on it's own with no interference from me . . . the mind is a womb . .it's purpose is to birth understanding . .not to conjure up an image on it's own . .which if left to it's own devices, does just that. Which for me, is why 2 Corinthians 10, I believe it is, tells us that we're to "take captive" our thoughts . . .keep them in check . . .
:cloud9: Just wanted to say this is the way I see it too.... :thumbsup:
[\quote] Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .[/quote]
:cloud9: For me, no choice was given. The last time I went with intentions of "settling in" for awhile, as soon as praise and worship started, He spoke to me, "Make this the last time," as in, make this the last time YOU decide anything.
At that juncture, I had already been pulled out of the churches, but I had missed "mother" (being comforted by the fellowship with the body), and "father", but a man must leave father and mother, at a certain point. Blessings.....
Quote from: Tony N on February 02, 2009, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2009, 03:50:49 PM
Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?
How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?
Therein lies the heart of the problem as to those who post here.
P.S., I hope you don't accuse me of being a mean person and jumping at what you said to make you look bad, but the sword cuts both ways. You stated: "Jesus is a spirit and so are we." Jesus is not a spirit and neither are we. This is just another of the problems I see here. People who think they are being taught by the spirit and are not.
Luke 24:39 Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
While Jesus is not a spirit, the declarationns or words which He spoke and which were written down are spirit and life. And how can we be vivified or made alive in our spirit if we don't receive the words He spoke, words which He also gave to the apostle Paul?
I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the question. It is just that I am thinking out loud.
Anyway, peace to you Nathan. I don't wish you ill in anything. :icon_flower:
You don't think Jesus is a spirit? Seriously? Just because he "manifested" in the flesh, doesn't mean that he is permanently flesh . . .even Paul referred to our bodies as temporary tents . . . Jeeze . . .if Jesus wasn't a spirit . .then there's no way the mount of transfiguration would ever have happened.
Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the questionThis is exactly the point I was making when I said you've already chosen not to understand . . . You don't ask your questions because you want to know more, you ask your questions because you're attempting to prove me wrong.
Dear brother Bob,
Just a brief note:
Let's have another looky at Romans 5:12:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" KJV
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -" Concordant Literal
To say that death passes upon all men BECAUSE all sinned is to undo what Paul just stated.
He just stated that due to what Adam did, that sin entered the world, and through sin death.
So to day that death passed through into all men because all men sinned is to undo the fact that it is because of Adam's sin.
The type now goes to Christ.
(Rom 5:18) Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
(Rom 5:19) For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
Please, dear friend, notice that we don't get life's justifying because we act righteously. And we don't get condemned because we as humans act condemningly.
All mankind get condemnation due to what Adam did, not what we do.
All mankind get their lives justified due to what Christ did, not what we do.
In 5:19, all mankind are made sinners due to what Adam did, not "because all sinned."
Also in 5:19 all mankind shall be made just or righteous due to what Christ did, not "because all acted righteously."
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Tony
Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.
Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.
Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.
John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.
Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.
Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."
I could go on and on.
The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.
P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."
P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL. :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).
Jesus is not a spirit.
Quote from: Tony N on February 02, 2009, 06:37:50 PM
Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.
Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.
Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.
John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.
Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.
Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."
I could go on and on.
The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.
P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."
P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL. :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).
Jesus is not a spirit.
This is why I hate debating with the mind of another. It's just ludicrous to think that Jesus is not a spirit. He was a spirit before he manifested in the body of flesh, he returned to the spirit after his ministry of redeeming the man of flesh back to God. So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?
And are you also one that believes truth does not come by way of revelation, but by way of much study and reasoning?
These differences we have are not just small things . . .
Who is the Lord if it is not Christ??? I thought he was King of kings . . .and LORD of lords??? Now you're suggesting there is another?
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away
QuoteSo are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?
Now that's a very interesting thought.
Think about it...
well,I differ with you
1 Corinthians 15-54
angels are ministering spirits..they have manifested as men
[bodies]who ate and drank[Abraham,Lot,Sodom and
Gomorrah..}
..to Joshua.......
now don't try to convince me that Jesus resurrected body
was not different than regular flesh..they thought He was
the gardner, then on the road they didn't recognize him
He walked through walls, disappeared, ascended up into the
clouds. Of course his body walked on water before the
resurrection. His flesh was not conceived even in the regular
physical way. He dwelled in a sinless spiritual body.
Jesus told us 'the Father wants those who will worship him in
spirit and truth"
when Jesus ascended ,He said he would not leave us as
orphans, but send us the comfortor..the Holy spirit..He told
us to receive the Holy spirit.
He told others,,ye search the scriptures daily..for in them you
think you have eternal life[John 5;39] These are the scriptures
that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have
life.
Jesus CHRIST [annointed] annointed with the spirit of God
even the Word of God come in flesh.
...if I speak the Word of God through my flesh to you
quickened in me by the Holy spirit..which is leading me
into all the depths of the knowledge of Christ
[Romans 8;14] then
John 8;43 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say
Matthew 23 the teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat, So, you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do NOT DO WHAT THEY DO, for they do not
practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Everything they do is for men to see. They make their phyacteries wide and their tassels on their garments long,
they love the places of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues, they love to be greeted in the marketplace and have men call them Rabbi
But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one master, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven
Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one teacher
the Christ[annointed] The greatest among you will be your servant.
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted
Now the words I just quoted above are the Lord's
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 07:22:09 PM
QuoteSo are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?
Now that's a very interesting thought.
Think about it...
Not sure where you're headed with that Molly, but I see this is a picture of Christ returning back to the spiritual authority. . .right hand . .and he's at rest . .seated. I do not believe his physical flesh is sitting literally next to God . . .is God then a spirit? I do believe that we all is said and done, we will have these bodies trasformed, but we'll still have bodies . .however, the flesh part must be changed.
Maybe I should ask this for Tony . . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2009, 06:55:22 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 02, 2009, 06:37:50 PM
Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.
Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.
Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.
John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.
Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.
Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."
I could go on and on.
The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.
P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."
P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL. :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).
Jesus is not a spirit.
QuoteNathan replied: This is why I hate debating with the mind of another. It's just ludicrous to think that Jesus is not a spirit. He was a spirit before he manifested in the body of flesh, he returned to the spirit after his ministry of redeeming the man of flesh back to God. So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?
Tony's reply:
Jesus Himself said He is not a spirit. In 2 Cor.3:17, 18 if it said that Jesus is a spirit then it would contradict what Jesus said: Luk 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for
a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Well, He came out of the tomb "flesh and bones" and He ascended into heaven as "flesh and bones" so I don't see why He would take His body of flesh and bones to heaven like a suite, take off the suite, hang it in the Sonsuite closet, sit at the right hand of God, then get up, go over to the Sonsuite closet, put his suite back on then come back to earth with his flesh and bones.
The angels told the disciples that He would come back as He left. He left as flesh and bones and will come back as flesh and bones.
QuoteNathan asked: And are you also one that believes truth does not come by way of revelation, but by way of much study and reasoning?
It comes by revelation through much study. . .
2Ti 4:13 "When you come, bring the traveling cloak which I left in Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the vellums."
Do you think Paul was just going to use the scrolls and vellums of the Sacred Scriptures to start a fire to keep him warm?
And we are supposed to study:
2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I'm sure Paul meant for us to study the Scriptures.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come,
give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Ti 4:15
Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Ti 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
QuoteNathan wrote: These differences we have are not just small things . . .
I would agree with you on that point. Maybe if you gave diligence to reading, meditating, giving heed to the doctrine, study to show yourself approved you'd agree with me more often and thus agree with the Scriptures and there would not be these huge differences? I don't say that to slight you, friend. I know you can say you do all those things but doing them and asking for a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him (Eph.1:16) is another matter.
QuoteWho is the Lord if it is not Christ??? I thought he was King of kings . . .and LORD of lords??? Now you're suggesting there is another?
Did I say the Lord was not the Christ?
Quote14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away
Yes, the veil is done away in Christ by the spirit or invisible power of Christ, not by the flesh.
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2009, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 07:22:09 PM
QuoteSo are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?
Now that's a very interesting thought.
Think about it...
Not sure where you're headed with that Molly, but I see this is a picture of Christ returning back to the spiritual authority. . .right hand . .and he's at rest . .seated. I do not believe his physical flesh is sitting literally next to God . . .is God then a spirit? I do believe that we all is said and done, we will have these bodies trasformed, but we'll still have bodies . .however, the flesh part must be changed.
Maybe I should ask this for Tony . . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?
I'm getting it from past discussions, that the heart is resurrected first--a heart of flesh.
2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.That we are/are becoming the word become flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.Quote...if I speak the Word of God through my flesh to you
quickened in me by the Holy spirit..which is leading me
into all the depths of the knowledge of Christ
[Romans 8;14]
If you are speaking the Word of God, are you then 'the mouth of God'?
Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.And if you are the obedient arm of God, are you then seated on the right hand of God?
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.Quote. . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?
us?
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Okay, lets hit some of these in the order of which they came . . .
Tony says . .study to show thyself approved . . .
For me, this is not saying revelation comes through studying. It's saying to me, "when" you read Scripture, you will find is says you are approved unto God. Not by revelation, but because it says so in print. There is no purpose for me to study to prove to God how much I know.
I believe if one depends on one's own logic, two things happen. . .#1, you end up in the ditch . . .and #2, you disobey the very word you're trying to adhere to . . .does it not say "lean NOT on YOUR OWN understanding."?
And Tony, you insinuate that you study and I do not . . . you base that on what? What makes you think I don't read Scripture? The fact that I'm on this forum everyday SHOULD tell you that there's not a day that goes by when I'm not reading Scripture because so many of the conversations are referring to it and quoting from it. You don't think the Holy Spirit can show me more than what is already written? You think that I must rely soley on this Bible . .even though you can seldom find two people that agree with any one translation, interpretation or opinion? You suggest that I should live on this bread alone? Do you not know what it means to have the Word Written on your Heart? Life is not in the book . . .it's in ME. God changed the venue of how he'd speak to us, and yet you're hanging on to the one that . . .like these bodies . . .was intended to be TEMPORARY.
And this reason you use that Jesus himself said he was not a spirit . . .you do realize that, there "was" an ascension . .yes? And that it was 2000 years ago when he said that . . .to a group of men who were freaking out thinking he was a GHOST! He wasn't trying to give them a spiritual revelation, he was trying to calm them down . .they saw him beaten and buried. His response was to let them know he was for real . .he was not a vision. But just because he was for real in the flesh then . . .does not mean that he is still in the flesh now.
you're missing the entire purpose of his coming. He didn't do what he did to satisfy the curiosity of the flesh, nor to bring focussed attention to the flesh. The circumcision that has taken place in us is not a physical one, we are Jewish, but not by physical bloodlines . . . the reason he left the spirit realm and manifested in the flesh . .was so that he could REDEEM the man of flesh back unto God WHO IS SPIRIT. And if I'm not mistaken . . .he did that to it's COMPLETION. (It is finished . . .he said that on purpose ya know . . ) Which then means, there's no need for him to return back to the flesh. he's already dealt with that part of man, why would you want to subject him to do it again?? It's not about catering to the flesh, it's about submitting to the spirit.
If it were about prioritizing flesh over everything else, then there would never be the call for walking in the spirit in the first place. And the reason why there is such a chasm here is because you embrace that which I see we are to let go of. You can't even see Christ is a spirit . . . that just blows my mind in and of itself.
"Because Jesus told the disciples when they were scared to death of seeing a ghost, that he wasn't a ghost, that must mean that he is in the body of flesh "while" in heaven right now."
Wow . . . I had no idea that's where you are at.
This passage that speaks of "as you saw him go, so he'll return". You see that to say . . ."You saw him leave in a body of flesh, so he'll return in a body of flesh . . ." Yes? That this is going to happen literally?? Well . . if you take everything literally then . . .could you explain why the angels lied to those standing there? Because the angels never said "2000 years from now, he's returning in the flesh" They said "to them" Just as "you" saw him go "you" will see him return." If that is to be taken literally as you and others suggest . . .then shouldn't the angels have said "Just as "you" saw him go . . ."others" will see him return.
For me . . .they saw him come through the womb of a physcial person who was bound by the curse of sin and death . . .and when he left, he left IN A RESURRECTED STATE. And just because Scripture doesn't specifically state that every person standing there did not have Christ reappear to each and every one of them SPIRITUALLY, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
But IF he came back PHYSICALLY to them . . .then everything else that people attach to the physical return of Christ would have to had happened "then" as well . .and the fact that it didn't physically happen would say one of two things for me . . .either the angels lied, or they didn't mean a physical return as so many claim that to mean.
To say that flesh prevails makes absolutely no sense. And when you're saying that Jesus is still flesh . . .you are also saying flesh has prevailed. Even though Scripture CLEARLY states flesh profits NOTHING. So why continue embracing something that has no benefit to it.
Molly, the heart of flesh . . . it's a picture of something hard and brittle to soft and pliable. God did not tatoo my physical heart . . ."that" would be taking literally. He transformed my spirit nature . . .it's all INTERNAL . . .invisible . .it can't be seen by the naked eye.
Are there literal mustard trees in heaven? Or can we agree that this is a spiritual metaphor? That's all I'm trying to say . . .these things are all around us . .the kingdom of heaven is "here" it just can't be seen by the natural eye because the kingdom of heaven is not of the natural realm. And as much as Tony may profess it . . . Christ is not sitting in a natural body of flesh . . .everything is spiritual.
QuoteMolly, the heart of flesh . . . it's a picture of something hard and brittle to soft and pliable. God did not tatoo my physical heart . . ."that" would be taking literally. He transformed my spirit nature . . .it's all INTERNAL . . .invisible . .it can't be seen by the naked eye.
But the results can be seen by the naked eye...yes?
As others, and you yourself, change right before your own eyes?
Are we not meant to be carriers of a resurrected seed while in the flesh? Or else, what is the point?
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Luke 22;15 and he said to them, I have eagerly desired
to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
FOR I TELL YOU I WILL NOT EAT IT AGAIN UNTIL
IT FINDS FULFILLMENT IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
Luke 22;15
take this and divide among you, For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes
...and He broke bread and gave it to them saying, this is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me
Luke 24;30 when He was at the table with them,he took bread,gave thanks,broke it,and began to give it to them
THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY RECOGNIZED HIM
AND HE DISAPPEARED FROM THEIR SIGHT
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nathan replies:
For me, this is not saying revelation comes through studying. It's saying to me, "when" you read Scripture, you will find it says you are approved unto God. Not by revelation, but because it says so in print. There is no purpose for me to study to prove to God how much I know.
Tony's reply:
Do you really think that one who studies the Scriptures and teaches eternal torture for the mass of humanity is approved unto God? That is just one issue, Nathan. There are many other incorrect beliefs which are not approved unto God.
Nathan wrote: I believe if one depends on one's own logic, two things happen. . .#1, you end up in the ditch . . .and #2, you disobey the very word you're trying to adhere to . . .does it not say "lean NOT on YOUR OWN understanding."?
Tony's reply:
If we are to renew the mind and be rejuvinated in the spirit of the mind then should we not use logic as well as pray for enlightenment?
We are not to throw away the mind God gave us but to renew the mind (Rom.12:2).
"yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your mind (Eph.4:23).
If those who read Revelation are supposed to calculate the number of the wild beast:
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
Do you think that takes logic?
Nathan wrote:
And this reason you use that Jesus himself said he was not a spirit . . .you do realize that, there "was" an ascension . .yes? And that it was 2000 years ago when he said that . . .to a group of men who were freaking out thinking he was a GHOST! He wasn't trying to give them a spiritual revelation, he was trying to calm them down . .they saw him beaten and buried. His response was to let them know he was for real . .he was not a vision. But just because he was for real in the flesh then . . .does not mean that he is still in the flesh now.
Tony's reply:
Nathan, they supposed they saw a spirit. They didn't see a spirit but a flesh and bones Jesus. Can spirits eat broiled fish and honeycomb? . . .
Luk 24:36-43 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? (39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (40) And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. (41) And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? (42) And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. (43) And he took it, and did eat before them.
They will see Him come back as flesh and bones.
It was also thousands of years after God told Adam and Eve that their seed would hurt the head of the serpent. Just because it happens thousands of years after it was said does not mean God didn't mean it when He told A & E. And neither should we doubt the angels who told the disciples He would come back as He left.
You say God is going to get rid of our flesh and bones? (not exactly those words but that is sort of what you are saying). If that is the case why is God going to all that trouble and august power of opening up all those millions of graves around the world and resurrecting the dead bodies of the saints and have those saints coming out of those graves to meet us who are alive in the air to meet the Lord?
Walking in the spirit is done while we are in the flesh. Paul told the Galatians in 5:16 to walk in the spirit. Did he expect them to hang up their earth suits for a while, walk as spirit beings, then put their earth suits back on?
As far as mustard trees go, neither Jesus nor I intimated it was to be in heaven.
Their faith was to be LIKE a mustard SEED.
Nathan wrote:
Christ is not sitting in a natural body of flesh . . .everything is spiritual.
Tony's reply:
Spiritual does not mean getting rid of one's body.
Paul told us: 1Co 2:15 Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all . . . ."
1Co 14:37 If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord."
I recognize that what Paul wrote is a precept of the Lord. Therefore I am spiritual yet I am still in a body of flesh and bones.
Christ most definately is sitting in a body of flesh and bones and will come back in like manner. This does not mean He is not spiritual.
Act 1:9-11 And saying these things, while they are looking, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him up from their eyes." (10) And as they were looking intently into heaven at His going, lo ! two men stand beside them in white attire, (11) who say also, "Men! Galileans! Why do you stand, looking into heaven? This Jesus Who is being taken up from you into heaven shall come thus, in the manner in which you gaze at Him going into heaven."
We will be spiritual, not spirits in that day we are resurrected to glory.
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 09:56:47 PM
Luke 22;15 and he said to them, I have eagerly desired
to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
FOR I TELL YOU I WILL NOT EAT IT AGAIN UNTIL
IT FINDS FULFILLMENT IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
Luke 22;15
take this and divide among you, For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes
...and He broke bread and gave it to them saying, this is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me
Luke 24;30 when He was at the table with them,he took bread,gave thanks,broke it,and began to give it to them
THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY RECOGNIZED HIM
AND HE DISAPPEARED FROM THEIR SIGHT
Now "there's" a pattern for ya! He did the same thing with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, they walked and talked with him . .didn't realize who he was because they themsleves had not yet identified with the resurrected Lord, only the crucified one . . .and the moment their hearts became aware, their physical eyes could see him no more. Once you cross over to the spiritual, the natural no longer has the impact . . .the purpose of the natural is to lead you into the spiritual. Once you enter into the spiritual, there is no longer the need to embrace the natural.
The purpose of Jesus in both cases was to reveal to natural men who he was . . .so in the flesh, he revealed, when it was fulfilled, he went back into the spirit again . . .the pattern never changes . . .the natural is the temporary arena where spiritual dominion physically "can" manifest . . .but the physical realm was never the dominant realm . .this world is "not" my home . .why? Because I am a spirit that is living in a temporary body of flesh . .my spirit is redeemed, my soul is being redeemed . .and the body is yet to be redeemed . . .yesterday, today, forever . . .everything spiritual is also everything in patterns.
Just because He disappeared from their sight does not mean He was a spirit.
He did the same in Luke 4:30 and John 8:59 while in the flesh just as He was in the flesh after His resurrection and as He ascended into heaven.
Nathan, when Paul was about to get shipwrecked it was said: "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls" (Act 27:37).
Do you think those souls had a body and a spirit and a soul comprising a whole human being?
This is my last post on this to you Tony . . .it's getting us no where and I don't like the arguing.
You said . . .
Do you really think that one who studies the Scriptures and teaches eternal torture for the mass of humanity is approved unto God? That is just one issue, Nathan. There are many other incorrect beliefs which are not approved unto God.
Yes . . yes I do . . . because I don't believe my approval has anything to do with what I believe . .that's what UR is all about bro . . .the whole world is approved unto God whether they accept the cross now or later . . .if they weren't already approved, then anhiliation would be the next step . .and it would be everyone that would be destroyed, for "all have sinned and fallen short". Whether I study the Bible or not . . .makes no difference because it states I am approved . . .my reading that doesn't bring the approval . .it just makes me aware of it.
If we are to renew the mind and be rejuvinated in the spirit of the mind then should we not use logic as well as pray for enlightenment?
We are not to throw away the mind God gave us but to renew the mind (Rom.12:2).
"yet to be rejuvenated in the spirit of your mind (Eph.4:23).
If those who read Revelation are supposed to calculate the number of the wild beast:
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
Do you think that takes logic?
When I talk about removing the mind, laying down natural reasoning . . .it's all referring to the spiritual conception of a new seed. Your Eve really must submit to your Adam which is saying your soul . .your mind, must submit to your spirit so that the seed of life can be planted in your mind. The logic of things comes with the order of the birthing of truth. "When" it is revealed to me by way of the Father . . .it then makes perfect sense. But the revelation does not come "after" applying the logic . . .the order is all wrong.
My mind can not reveal the nature of God . .it simply observes that which is unveiled through the grace of the Father when pertaining to the Son. The renewing of the mind does not mean everything I think is right and godly . .it's a process of spiritual circumcision within the framework of what causes me to "beleive" what I reason. The Truth remains the same whether my mind acknowledges it or not. And it remains hidden so long as I allow my mind to be my identity and not my spirit.
I believe Adam had a body before the fall . . .I believe that spirit was dominant in the garden and natural existed, but it was invisible . .yes, I said it. I believe that when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, he brought disorder to the dominion. It "was" predominantly spirit, it "became" predominantly natural. But when all things are complete, the spiritual will return to it's original place of dominance and the natural will return to it's original place of submission . . .just as the spirit realm is visible now and the natural realm is all we see . . .when all things are fully restored, I see the spiritual being visible and the natural still existing . . .just not being seen or being dominant.
I'm sure you disagree with this Tony, and that's just fine. We can't even agree with what I see as the elementary aspects of Christ dispositon . . .either way, I'm finished with this argument. I've shared my case, I've put the seed out for others . . .if I keep tilling the same ground where I already dropped the seed . . .it'll never grow.
Blessings
QuoteThey will see Him come back as flesh and bones.
Nice. :thumbsup:
Yet, in my flesh shall I see God.
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 10:40:57 PM
QuoteThey will see Him come back as flesh and bones.
Nice. :thumbsup:
Yet, in my flesh shall I see God.
or inwardly :icon_flower: to ""see" means Understand" :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 02, 2009, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 10:40:57 PM
QuoteThey will see Him come back as flesh and bones.
Nice. :thumbsup:
Yet, in my flesh shall I see God.
or inwardly :icon_flower: to ""see" means Understand" :icon_flower:
[shall I]
"see" [God]
H2372
חזה
châzâhkhaw-zaw
A primitive root;
to gaze at; mentally to perceive, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically to have a vision of: - behold, look, prophesy, provide, see.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 10:52:26 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 02, 2009, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2009, 10:40:57 PM
QuoteThey will see Him come back as flesh and bones.
Nice. :thumbsup:
Yet, in my flesh shall I see God.
or inwardly :icon_flower: to ""see" means Understand" :icon_flower:
[shall I] "see" [God]
H2372
חזה
châzâh
khaw-zaw
A primitive root; to gaze at; mentally to perceive, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically to have a vision of: - behold, look, prophesy, provide, see.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
:icon_flower:
****mentally to perceive,****** :icon_flower:
Job 19:26-27 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah, (27) Whom I shall perceive for myself, And my own eyes will see Him and not an alien. My innermost being is exhausted in my bosom,
I think Job was talking about the resurrection.
Also to Nathan, that's O.K. even though we don't see eye to eye on many things.
In the future we both will arrive at a complete understanding. You just beat me to it, that's all.
Job 38;3 Gird up your loins,now,like a man; for I will demand of thee,and answer thou of me
Job 42;4 You said 'Listen now and I will speak; I will question you,and you shall answer me
My ears Had heard of you,
but NOW my eyes have seen you
first the natural..then the spiritual
1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
And now John teaches a different version here...
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
This is the same confession as in 1John 4:2 except the perfect participle used there is replaced by a present participle (ἐρχόμενον, erchomenon) here. It is not clear why John changed from a perfect participle in 1John 4:2 to a present participle here. The perfect participle suggests a reference to the (past). The present participle could suggest a reference to the (future). :2c:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on February 02, 2009, 11:34:03 PM
1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
And now John teaches a different version here...
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
This is the same confession as in 1John 4:2 except the perfect participle used there is replaced by a present participle (ἐρχόμενον, erchomenon) here. It is not clear why John changed from a perfect participle in 1John 4:2 to a present participle here. The perfect participle suggests a reference to the (past). The present participle could suggest a reference to the (future). :2c:
Paul
What about the present?
2 This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (A) is from God.
Footnotes:
A 1 John 4:2 Or confesses Jesus to be the Christ come in the flesh
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. (A) This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Footnotes:
A 2 John 1:7 Or confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh
"come",
"coming" [in the flesh]
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomaier'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (
used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur);
to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): -
accompany, appear, bring,
come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. --Rev 22
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 11:33:12 PM
Job 38;3 Gird up your loins,now,like a man; for I will demand of thee,and answer thou of me
Job 42;4 You said 'Listen now and I will speak; I will question you,and you shall answer me
My ears Had heard of you,
but NOW my eyes have seen you
first the natural..then the spiritual
Sheila, it is "First the soulish then the spiritual"
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
soul is psuche
soulish is psuchikon
First Adam then the Christ.
Natural= by nature
soulical= of or pertaining to the soul,esp considered as
the seat of man's moral and emotional NATURE
Nature Nature Nature..natural
auth KJV natural NIV natural
definitions Websters new international dictionary of the
ENGLISH LANGUAGE Second edition, Unabridged
I don't like the word soulish I prefer the expression
Natural....and that is what I will use
If anyone has trouble with understanding what I mean
they can refer to the terminology above
The title of this topic is Natural and Spiritual I don't see
how my using that 'term' would need to be explained,Tony
Thank you
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2009, 03:14:26 AM
Natural= by nature
soulical= of or pertaining to the soul,esp considered as
the seat of man's moral and emotional NATURE
Nature Nature Nature..natural
auth KJV natural NIV natural
definitions Websters new international dictionary of the
ENGLISH LANGUAGE Second edition, Unabridged
I don't like the word soulish I prefer the expression
Natural....and that is what I will use
If anyone has trouble with understanding what I mean
they can refer to the terminology above
The title of this topic is Natural and Spiritual I don't see
how my using that 'term' would need to be explained, Tony
Thank you
GOTCHA ...Used to indicate understanding AND the unjust writ of execution, was
the signal for revolt.
"Pull it over, Man! Pedestrian walking in the Spirit." :boogie:
And, Feisty too! A kindred spirit of frisky or spunky, rather like that!
peacemaker
A couple things for which I make the same plea.
Sometimes in this thread there has been the use of "positive and negative" as moral categories. While this is is commonly done, and I suppose there is commonly some understanding of what is meant, it isn't strictly speaking a Scriptural way of designating ethical categories. There is no power flow without positive and negative poles. Both are good. I just want people to speak more precisely. We can get into trouble when we make up our own categories. The word "rapture" for one. Its content varies from one proponent to another. Using Biblical terminology for the various components was significant to my awakening to the wrong ideas I'd been raised on and advancing into a more accurate adjustment to the truth and what is written.
Another one I esteem as much more important is using the word "church" or, "churches" when what is meant is Babylon and her daughters. For some years I stopped using certain words like "Church," "eternal," or, "saved" and others because they consistently failed to communicate. Say "the Lord" to people randomly on the street or those from this or that demonination and sometimes what it conjures in their minds is a false image, an idol, which, if there's any power there, it's demonic. Explaining or focusing on particular Scriptural aspects was what I did to talk about these thing. Sometimes I would use a word like Eclessia and explain why. I really desire that when people talk about the "false vine" or apostate Institutional Christianity they'd not call it "the Church." The Church is God's girlfriend. Instead of "the Church" I'd either say Eclessia or Babylon with explanations. I've gotten lazy. Just today I wrongly spoke of some things like, "The end of the Lord is mercy" or, "Jesus, the Savior of All," saying, you'd not hear them mentioned in the churches. I should have said you'd not hear them mentioned in the steeple houses of Babylon the Mother of Whores or something similar. Some of the most popular books about the Church in the last 25 or so years don't even recognize the existence of "false brethren" or a Mystical Babylon. The Institutions are the Church to them. Those outside, that's us, are the lunatic fringe. (That's my hair style: lunatic fringe.) Yet the 2nd most significant prophetic topic for number of verses is Babylon. If that isn't being revealed in you then there is suppression of the truth.
For both these things I wish we'd be more careful to explain what we mean, mindful of the false images some common words produce in our audiences.
Quote from: reFORMer on February 03, 2009, 09:12:25 AM
A couple things for which I make the same plea.
Sometimes in this thread there has been the use of "positive and negative" as moral categories. While this is is commonly done, and I suppose there is commonly some understanding of what is meant, it isn't strictly speaking a Scriptural way of designating ethical categories. There is no power flow without positive and negative poles. Both are good. I just want people to speak more precisely. We can get into trouble when we make up our own categories. The word "rapture" for one. Its content varies from one proponent to another. Using Biblical terminology for the various components was significant to my awakening to the wrong ideas I'd been raised on and advancing into a more accurate adjustment to the truth and what is written.
Another one I esteem as much more important is using the word "church" or, "churches" when what is meant is Babylon and her daughters. For some years I stopped using certain words like "Church," "eternal," or, "saved" and others because they consistently failed to communicate. Say "the Lord" to people randomly on the street or those from this or that demonination and sometimes what it conjures in their minds is a false image, an idol, which, if there's any power there, it's demonic. Explaining or focusing on particular Scriptural aspects was what I did to talk about these thing. Sometimes I would use a word like Eclessia and explain why. I really desire that when people talk about the "false vine" or apostate Institutional Christianity they'd not call it "the Church." The Church is God's girlfriend. Instead of "the Church" I'd either say Eclessia or Babylon with explanations. I've gotten lazy. Just today I wrongly spoke of some things like, "The end of the Lord is mercy" or, "Jesus, the Savior of All," saying, you'd not hear them mentioned in the churches. I should have said you'd not hear them mentioned in the steeple houses of Babylon the Mother of Whores or something similar. Some of the most popular books about the Church in the last 25 or so years don't even recognize the existence of "false brethren" or a Mystical Babylon. The Institutions are the Church to them. Those outside, that's us, are the lunatic fringe. (That's my hair style: lunatic fringe.) Yet the 2nd most significant prophetic topic for number of verses is Babylon. If that isn't being revealed in you then there is suppression of the truth.
For both these things I wish we'd be more careful to explain what we mean, mindful of the false images some common words produce in our audiences.
:thumbsup: Although I feel the same way, I also often slip and use words I really don't believe in. In the Forward of The Christian Bible, there's a list of about 100 words that aren't used in the translation. This is due first of all to their inaccuracy, and secondly, because many/most are perversions inserted into the language in large part by Dark Age Pagan/Rome doctrine that "we've" accepted through the years (along with many of their ideas and Bible translations). I don't have it with me, but the list includes such words as church [ecclesia], Lord [Master], hell [Hades, Gehenna, etc.], Jesus [Yesu], pastor [?], deacon [elder?], baptize [immerse], etc. Does this save or lose mine or anyone else's soul, or should it be a source of conflict or condemnation?
I think not. But I personally find it very interesting to know more the accurate origins of the words/terms, and especially their meanings...some of it for me has to do with being called out of churchianity
and my desire to bring with me as little of it as possible.
Jesus has gone through various forms, at least 8 or nine are indicated in Scripture. One is strictly female. He was, in his animal little lamb nature slain before the casting down of the earth. Passing through several forms, He was then slain as a human being. He then as a spirit preached to the dead. His resurrection form was not the same as whatever ascension does to embodiment. Where he went is back up into Deity. When talking to Moses God explains, as an example, He could have appeared as a ball of fire; but, then they would've been tempted to worship the sun. So they saw no form, they only heard a voice. Jesus is at liberty to manifest physically in any way He wants, if He wants. He has physical being but it is as one immortal and ascended.
"O IEUE, You Yourself have become our Habitation in generation after generation..." (Ps 90:1) Our dwelling place is God. Many are not very developed in their perceptions relating to coming into God and God into them. The 10 are virgins because they have not been intimate with God to conceive a child of resurrection. The bride is either with the bridegroom, or more likely, already within the house. The 10 are a minyam. They are witnesses The 5 foolish virgins are those who perceive just with their Adamic senses. The 5 wise have additional oil (anointing) to perceive with spiritual or extended senses. . We have an anointing to see, hear, feel God and by the means of God to see things He sees, hearing and feeling by Him. Smell has to do with discernment and taste with union.
"Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!" (Gal 4:7) Jesus is here described manifesting as spirit a couple decades after His ascension. As a glorified man He is spirit, soul and body; but, whatever those are in the form of Deity. We are to be participants of the Divine nature by using the precious and greatest promises of Jesus. "...all His divine power that tends to life and devoutness, [has] been presented to us through the recognition of Him Who calls us to His own glory and virtue..." (1 Pet 1:3)
This does not mean "This old word is not my home. I'm just a travellin' through." That is what the spirit behind false religion teaches us so we won't be much of a problem. We're supposed to accept going down into death so the world will be left to the wicked. But it is here the dead will be raised along with us in order to rule as a Royal Priesthood in all the earth. We coming to a time when we will just stay. Death won't be able to take us our anymore. We will reign with Him. How much of that can be entered into before the time has yet to be defined. Elijah came into something for which God is no respecter of persons.
Quote from: ReformerThis does not mean "This old word is not my home. I'm just a travellin' through." That is what the spirit behind false religion teaches us so we won't be much of a problem. We're supposed to accept going down into death so the world will be left to the wicked. But it is here the dead will be raised along with us in order to rule as a Royal Priesthood in all the earth. We coming to a time when we will just stay. Death won't be able to take us our anymore. We will reign with Him. How much of that can be entered into before the time has yet to be defined. Elijah came into something for which God is no respecter of persons.
This has occurred to me, too. Sheep are ok, sons are not. Weakness is ok, strength is not. Even fellow Christians are alarmed by strength among their own. Cardinal mentioned that by humility God meant pouring out ourselves so that he could fill us with himself. The more we are filled with the glory of God, the more we are going to terrify those around us. Jesus did just the opposite. He poured himself out so that he could be made a little lower than the angels, so that he could come down to our level--like a big man bending down to pick up a small child. So there is a tendency to always see him in that 'bent down' way. He could have walked through this world in his transfigured form, as pure light, trailing clouds of angels. He could have done anything he wished. His wish was for relationship.
Our differences seem to annoy some, even here. But that's the glory of God, too. He made us different to reflect his infinite character, and gave us the freedom to express it. That freedom is beyond value in its preciousness to me. Then, why is it so threatening to so many?
5Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
6And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
7And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
8And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
10Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.--Zech 5
"ephah"H374
אפה איפה
'êyphâh 'êphâh
ay-faw', ay-faw'
Of Egyptian derivation; an ephah or
measure for grain; hence a measure in general: - ephah, (divers) measure (-s).
"Shinar"H8152
שׁנער
shin‛ârshin-awr'
Probably of foreign derivation; Shinar,
a plain in Babylon: - Shinar.
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2009, 03:14:26 AM
Natural= by nature
soulical= of or pertaining to the soul,esp considered as
the seat of man's moral and emotional NATURE
Nature Nature Nature..natural
auth KJV natural NIV natural
definitions Websters new international dictionary of the
ENGLISH LANGUAGE Second edition, Unabridged
I don't like the word soulish I prefer the expression
Natural....and that is what I will use
If anyone has trouble with understanding what I mean
they can refer to the terminology above
The title of this topic is Natural and Spiritual I don't see
how my using that 'term' would need to be explained,Tony
Thank you
Dear Sheila, the topic title Natural and Spiritual was chosen because everyone improperly uses that so I wanted to bring attention to it.
Shiela, I know deep in your heart you want to be closer to what God has said. Right?
So why not use a translation which is closer to what God has said rather than a "version" such as the King James "version" which is just a redone revision of other bibles of their day?
"Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one,...but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against, that hath been our endeavor."
Sheila, if God used the word "soulish" don't you really think we should believe Him and not use the word "natural"? A person who is in accord with nature is good. A person who goes against nature is bad.
So a natural person in the verse below would receive those things which are of the spirit of God but the soulish man is not.
1Co 2:14 Now
the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
Adam was not natural but soulish. He was not receiving that which was of the spirit of God and was not able to know them. So he got kicked out of the garden for disobeying God.
(1Co 2:14) Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
(1Co 15:46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
(Jas 3:15) This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
(Jud 1:19) These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."
Quote(Jas 3:15) This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
This is interesting--
"soulish"G5591
ψυχικός
psuchikospsoo-khee-kos'
From G5590; sensitive that is, animate
(in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): -
natural, sensual.G5590
ψυχή
psuchēpsoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication)
spirit, abstractly or concretely (
the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated natureG4151, which is the rational and immortal soul;G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikosphyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is,
(humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or
(divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneumapnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is,
breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively
a spirit, that is,
(human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God,
Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial natureG5446
φυσικός
phusikosfoo-see-kos'
From G5449;
"physical", that is, (by implication) instinctive: -
natural. Compare G5591.
G5449
φύσις
phusisfoo'-sis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind,
nature ([-al]).
:cloud9: AMEN, Reformer :thumbsup:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Adam was not just soulish--he was made a living soul.
"living"
G2198
ζάω
zaō
dzah'-o
A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): - life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.
"soul"
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
The last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
"quickening"
G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
"spirit"
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
So, Adam couldn't quicken Eve, but Jesus could? That's why Adam stands mute while the serpent tempts Eve?
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2009, 03:24:34 PM
So, Adam couldn't quicken Eve, but Jesus could? That's why Adam stands mute while the serpent tempts Eve?
IMO, Adam and Eve are the Spirits way of describing a person. Every single person is 'Adam and Eve'. So to answer your question, No, Adam cannot quicken Eve. A person cannot save himself. Only the Life of God can quicken a person and that is why Jesus is sent into people john 3.16.
cp
It doesn't matter what language or tongue you use,
as long as you speak truth in love.
the dragon held authority over every tongue..when it spoke lies and accusations in any language.
Rev 14;6 and I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven
having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred and TONGUE
and people
Love has a language of it's own...and it's NOT making a brother an offender over a word
even the catholics have let off speaking Latin only
You can speak truth in the tongue of the angels..
.
but it won't be of profit if no one understands..[.it must be
translated into their own language]
except if it be for buiding up the one speaking..
and if that be the case...and no one else benefit in
the congregation..that one is instructed to not speak
I have my preference of words ,too....as I imagine
we all do. But you don't make it a source of contention,
or censoring of your brothers in faith.I will not 'diss' you
if you prefer soulish or Adonai or any other word.
That is NOT what our Father wants or expects from us
weren't the disciples unlettered? Now, can our brothers that
have knowledge of these languages benefit us in our
understanding? Certainly! But the WORD OF GOD COME
IN FLESH IS JESUS CHRIST, not aramaic,greek,latin or
any other tongue
Zephaniah 3;9 For then will I turn to the people to
a PURE LANGUAGE, THAT THEY MAY ALL CALL UPON
THE LORD,TO SERVE HIM WITH ONE CONSENT
Happy are the pure in heart
Post scrip
it was the confusing of tongues...and the dissension over it
that gave Babylon[babbel] it's name..
One can be "spiritual" minded and not see all as "inward". ie: Paul had the "mind of Christ", but looked at two sets of people;
those stuck in "natural" mindset; to undergo soon coming destruction
and
those given ears/eyes to see (faith) "spiritual" mindset; who would be saved from the soon coming destruction.
Those who look at "natural" events unfolding; are not necessarily seeing with "natural/soulish" eyes.
any thots?
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2009, 03:24:34 PM
So, Adam couldn't quicken Eve, but Jesus could? That's why Adam stands mute while the serpent tempts Eve?
IMO, Adam and Eve are the Spirits way of describing a person. Every single person is 'Adam and Eve'. So to answer your question, No, Adam cannot quicken Eve. A person cannot save himself. Only the Life of God can quicken a person and that is why Jesus is sent into people john 3.16.
cp
well, just to keep the comparison true, Adam is to Eve as Jesus is to the ekklesia...yes?
And, Jesus and the ekklesia are to be one body also....yes?
So one question for me has always been ...why did Adam stand mute while satan was tempting Eve?
Later, we will see that Jesus has plenty to say to satan, and it is all scripture--the word of God.
So, since Jesus was fully man [as well as God], was he a quickening spirit as a man?
And, if he was, since Adam also was given the breath of God [and made a son], was the salient difference between Jesus and Adam then (speaking from the point of view of fully man) the word of God, that is, scripture?
In other words, Adam did not have the scripture, so he is not able to be a 'quickening' spirit?
I hope that question made sense.
QuoteRe: Natural and Spiritual
« Reply #1385 on: Today at 11:30:17 AM » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: sheila on Today at 12:14:26 AM
Natural= by nature
soulical= of or pertaining to the soul,esp considered as
the seat of man's moral and emotional NATURE
Nature Nature Nature..natural
auth KJV natural NIV natural
definitions Websters new international dictionary of the
ENGLISH LANGUAGE Second edition, Unabridged
I don't like the word soulish I prefer the expression
Natural....and that is what I will use
If anyone has trouble with understanding what I mean
they can refer to the terminology above
The title of this topic is Natural and Spiritual I don't see
how my using that 'term' would need to be explained,Tony
Thank you
Dear Sheila, the topic title Natural and Spiritual was chosen because everyone improperly uses that so I wanted to bring attention to it.
Shiela, I know deep in your heart you want to be closer to what God has said. Right?
So why not use a translation which is closer to what God has said rather than a "version" such as the King James "version" which is just a redone revision of other bibles of their day?
"Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one,...but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against, that hath been our endeavor."
Sheila, if God used the word "soulish" don't you really think we should believe Him and not use the word "natural"? A person who is in accord with nature is good. A person who goes against nature is bad.
So a natural person in the verse below would receive those things which are of the spirit of God but the soulish man is not.
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
Adam was not natural but soulish. He was not receiving that which was of the spirit of God and was not able to know them. So he got kicked out of the garden for disobeying God.
(1Co 2:14) Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
(1Co 15:46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
(Jas 3:15) This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
(Jud 1:19) These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."
Just where in the Book of Tony do I find your reasoning to all this?
The carnal Man( MIND) that is The soulISH \sensual man or the Natrual Man..take ya Pick...IS ENMITYand those who are carnally minded are DEAD for to Be carnally Minded ,that is the natural, soulish,sensual man is DEATH.
SO declare the srCiptures...
Nothing good dwell in the soulish man....for they are dead ....o as the the scriptures aloso declare the FLESH profits nothing..cos its dead....capish.....
just what good is there that dwells in death Bud.
Tis the reason we need a renewing of the Face of the earth( man) as wrote yesterday....Hi sbreath( Holy spirit dwelling in one wqith ours...for we are now in HIM and Him in us..a NEW MAN......
man Tony..im sooo thankkful to be out of the churches of men.
Blessings
g
Personally, I think I'm going to go with the term
'corruptible' lol!
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2009, 07:17:59 PM
Personally, I think I'm going to go with the term
'corruptible' lol!
I kinda prefer the*incorruptible* :icon_flower:
Corruptible V incorruptible...
how does that one sound Tony :icon_flower:
Naked v Clothed
Born dead v Made ALIVE
Those without V those with
Deaf\Blind v those who see and Hear.
Lame V walk
Crooked V upright
Tree of K&E v Tree of Life.
law V grace and Truth
Those beneath V those above
wisdom Beneath V wisdom above
Goliath V David
cankered Gold V gold
lies V truth
woman v Mother( of us all)
:icon_flower:
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2009, 07:17:59 PM
Personally, I think I'm going to go with the term
'corruptible' lol!
Mortal is a good one.
Molly, you wrote...
well, just to keep the comparison true, Adam is to Eve as Jesus is to the ekklesia...yes?
And, Jesus and the ekklesia are to be one body also....yes?
So one question for me has always been ...why did Adam stand mute while satan was tempting Eve?
Later, we will see that Jesus has plenty to say to satan, and it is all scripture--the word of God.
So, since Jesus was fully man [as well as God], was he a quickening spirit as a man?
And, if he was, since Adam also was given the breath of God [and made a son], was the salient difference between Jesus and Adam then (speaking from the point of view of fully man) the word of God, that is, scripture?
In other words, Adam did not have the scripture, so he is not able to be a 'quickening' spirit?IMO, Adam had Scripture in his heart. Adam and God 'talked'.
I like how you put it, that Adam is to Eve like Jesus is to the ekklesia.
Why did Adam stand mute............
I think Satan was the stronger of the 'two'. In Job God let Satan do certain things to Job which Job could do nothing about. God did this for His own good reasons. The mind of man can be a very formidable enemy as well as a strong ally.
First the natural, the weaker man, then the spiritual, the much stronger man.
We are being made, Molly.
cp
I believe the answer to your question Molly, lies in the act itself. Adam "recieved" the fruit from Eve. The reason he was quiet was because he let Eve walk in the authority originally given to him. He was to subdue his earth/flesh/mind/Eve but he didn't, instead of spirit feeding the mind, he let the mind feed the spirit.
When you combine displaced authority with a decieved nature, you will result in a fall every time.
mortal v Immortal.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
is Mortal the Natural man who is the \soulish Sensual man ,also the carnal man who can be known as the Natural man...? known as a CLAY POT :laughing7:
Dear Taffy,
It is not in the Book of Tony but the Sacred Scriptures.
Also, "carnal mind" in not in the Scriptures. . .
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." CLNT
"carnal" nor "mind" is in the Greek text of Romans 8:7.
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Believest thou God or thine own understanding, knave? :laughing7:
P.S. you missed one:
Soulish vs. Spiritual
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
Dear Taffy,
It is not in the Book of Tony but the Sacred Scriptures.
Also, "carnal mind" in not in the Scriptures. . .
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." CLNT
"carnal" nor "mind" is in the Greek text of Romans 8:7.
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Believest thou God or thine own understanding, knave? :laughing7:
Gee Bro..what can one say...Ones NATURE....or that which COMES
naturally ( by way of habit):icon_flower: tis the flesh of man , his soulish\sensual being....
Love ya man...ya consistent if nothing else bro...Funny too :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
..
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
Dear Taffy,
It is not in the Book of Tony but the Sacred Scriptures.
Also, "carnal mind" in not in the Scriptures. . .
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." CLNT
"carnal" nor "mind" is in the Greek text of Romans 8:7.
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Believest thou God or thine own understanding, knave? :laughing7:
And for the rest of us, when you come into the realization of the spiritual truth that lies beneath this concrete surface of the literal words being argued over . . . it is the natural reasoning of man that does not have the capacity to comprehend the spiritual things of God, unless, God's grace manifests "in" the heart of man and God chooses to "reveal" the hidden truth . .the invisible things of his nature, to our PHYSICAL minds. Tony excluded here of course because he adamantly chooses to hash out the physical and proclaim what can already be physically seen rather than letting God lead over into the spiritual where the ministry of FAITH is predominant and we speak out the unseen things as though they are seen.
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Jesus was in the flesh and he was not emnity to God.
QuoteSoulish vs. Spiritual
No T..didnt miss it...RE- named it and listed others according to the scriptures , which in Truth says the same thing Bro.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 07:54:01 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Jesus was in the flesh and he was not emnity to God.
Just as well HE OVERCOME for all men P..or else we would be in trouble and still in our graves...
:icon_flower:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Was Jesus ever "in the flesh"?
Quote from: Zeek on February 03, 2009, 08:01:59 PM
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Was Jesus ever "in the flesh"?
Hi Bro..
I fear you may get this verse in reply..I was discussing thistopic a few eeks back privately...
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
Quote from: Taffy on February 03, 2009, 08:11:28 PM
Quote from: Zeek on February 03, 2009, 08:01:59 PM
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Was Jesus ever "in the flesh"?
Hi Bro..
I fear you may get this verse in reply..I was discussing thistopic a few eeks back privately...
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
yeah, born under law; but not the mindset of the law
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
just got your PM T, i'll check it out.
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2009, 07:52:55 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 07:45:51 PM
Dear Taffy,
It is not in the Book of Tony but the Sacred Scriptures.
Also, "carnal mind" in not in the Scriptures. . .
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. KJV
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." CLNT
"carnal" nor "mind" is in the Greek text of Romans 8:7.
Also, Taffy, it is not "soulish" nor "carnal man" nor "natural man" that is at enmity to God but "the flesh is enmity to God."
Believest thou God or thine own understanding, knave? :laughing7:
And for the rest of us, when you come into the realization of the spiritual truth that lies beneath this concrete surface of the literal words being argued over . . . it is the natural reasoning of man that does not have the capacity to comprehend the spiritual things of God, unless, God's grace manifests "in" the heart of man and God chooses to "reveal" the hidden truth . .the invisible things of his nature, to our PHYSICAL minds. Tony excluded here of course because he adamantly chooses to hash out the physical and proclaim what can already be physically seen rather than letting God lead over into the spiritual where the ministry of FAITH is predominant and we speak out the unseen things as though they are seen.
Dear Nathan,
You wrote:
Quotethe spiritual truth that lies beneath this concrete surface of the literal words being argued over
The words are not a concrete surfact as if they are not spirit themselves. They are spirit and spiritual:
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The
words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit,
matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."
We can only know what is spiritual by following closely with the properly translated words in the Bible.
If they are improperly translated then we won't know what the "spiritual blessings" are because the un-spiritual words of poor translations hide the spiritual blessings.
If you don't receive the true words Jesus spoke then you do not receive the spiritual for His words are spirit and life. His words are already spiritual as are Paul's. So there is no need to spiritualize the spiritual.
:icon_flower: Hi , the literal mind cannot fathom the thoughts of the spiritual mindset , its like saying we are washing in the blood of Jesus , if you take this so literal and carnal , naturally , you would think we have to literally bathe in BLOOD We know this a spiritual perception [eye] of knowing /understanding what the Holy Spirit is saying .. and hearing what the Spirit is saying , healed ears by the Lord , new ears if you will ..
Hi Shelia sis , good thread and posts being made ...
here is a great set of verses showing Jesus Christ in the Flesh
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
:HeartThrob:
Oh really Tony? and what verse did you get that from? Because most of your posts are emphasizing literal words while yet you're trying to say you are proclaiming life. Life is not in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary. You make it sound like if only we all had the original text, then everyone would know the truth . . .
Is that what you're trying to say?
Quote from: rosered on February 03, 2009, 08:39:42 PM
:icon_flower: Hi , the literal mind cannot fathom the thoughts of the spiritual mindset , its like saying we are washing in the blood of Jesus , if you take this so literal and carnal , naturally , you would think we have to literally bathe in BLOOD We know this a spiritual perception [eye] of knowing /understanding what the Holy Spirit is saying .. and hearing what the Spirit is saying , healed ears by the Lord , new ears if you will ..
Hi Shelia sis , good thread and posts being made ...
here is a great set of verses showing Jesus Christ in the Flesh
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
:HeartThrob:
Amen sis:icon_flower:
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a
man be born when he is old? can he
enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Nice flower :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on February 03, 2009, 08:39:42 PM
:icon_flower: Hi , the literal mind cannot fathom the thoughts of the spiritual mindset , its like saying we are washing in the blood of Jesus , if you take this so literal and carnal , naturally , you would think we have to literally bathe in BLOOD We know this a spiritual perception [eye] of knowing /understanding what the Holy Spirit is saying .. and hearing what the Spirit is saying , healed ears by the Lord , new ears if you will ..
Hi Shelia sis , good thread and posts being made ...
here is a great set of verses showing Jesus Christ in the Flesh
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
:HeartThrob:
here in Esau we see the parallel and the literal flesh of Esau ''hairy ''garment Esau was also called Edom ("red"), 25:25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
two nations waring ...in the womb /mind ..
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;
lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
Hbr 12:16 Lest there [be]
any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. Hbr 12:17
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. same tears ? they are similar yet differnt results .
Hbr 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Hbr 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Hbr 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
:HeartThrob:
Hbr 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
QuoteJhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nice flower
:icon_flower: Yes Bro G !! thanks! born AGAIN of the incorruptible seed which
IS CHRIST WORD OF GOD Definatly spiritual in nature :HeartThrob:
ps as it is written , not all flesh is the '' SAME FLESH ''
:winkgrin:
:HeartThrob:
Hope you are doing well Bro G :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2009, 08:40:47 PM
Oh really Tony? and what verse did you get that from?
I already told you which verse yet you have not believed me because His word is _______ (fill in the blank) in you. I will repeat it . . .
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."
QuoteBecause most of your posts are emphasizing literal words while yet you're trying to say you are proclaiming life. Life is not in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary. You make it sound like if only we all had the original text, then everyone would know the truth . . .
Is that what you're trying to say?
Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are. Words are important. God uses words to tell us what blessings we have. They are not there just to use printer's ink. We can't know what the spiritual blessings are without knowing what God literally spoke to us. The words are spirit and spiritual. It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.
I never said life was in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary gives life. Did I? So why say it? That is a straw man argument.
Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.
QuoteJust being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.
Again T no ones Disputing the literal....
some Fine scholars in the wwcg...Earnest L Martin was one in his time ...Kinda paid three tithes too....maybe ya work mate may have heard of him..along with two others..L Ray Smith and Mike Vinson
:icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on February 03, 2009, 09:02:23 PM
ps as it is written , not all flesh is the " SAME FLESH "
:winkgrin:
:HeartThrob:
Hope you are doing well . ro G :icon_flower:
Amen sis.. for the Flesh profits NOTHING...... Then to BE Born of his flesh and Bones :icon_flower:
1Cr 15:47 The first man is of the
earth, earthy: the
second man is the Lord from heaven.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall
no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of SIN.
Gen 2:3 Adam said, This is now bone of my bones,
and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Ephes 5:30 For WE are members of HIS body, of his
flesh, and of his bones.
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2009, 08:40:47 PM
Oh really Tony? and what verse did you get that from?
I already told you which verse yet you have not believed me because His word is _______ (fill in the blank) in you. I will repeat it . . .
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."
QuoteBecause most of your posts are emphasizing literal words while yet you're trying to say you are proclaiming life. Life is not in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary. You make it sound like if only we all had the original text, then everyone would know the truth . . .
Is that what you're trying to say?
Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are. Words are important. God uses words to tell us what blessings we have. They are not there just to use printer's ink. We can't know what the spiritual blessings are without knowing what God literally spoke to us. The words are spirit and spiritual. It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.
I never said life was in a Greek or Hebrew dictionary gives life. Did I? So why say it? That is a straw man argument.
Just being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.
[/quote]
In essence Tony, your saying that words have spiritual meaning . . .but if you misinterpret the literal word, the Spirit can not reveal to you the spiritual intent . .
If this is what you are implying . .then I have to humbly disagree with you . .again . . I believe the written words are not what lead me into truth . . .but the spirit leads and it's my perspective that can see. If my perspective is wrong, then so is my understanding. The words play a role for sure . . .but you spend the vast majority of your posts splitting hairs and engaging in arguments over the literal words . .. never mind the spiritual picture that lies beneath. And you claim that "I'm" the one that initiates a strand argument?
Nathan, if you are not matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings then you don't really know what those spiritual blessings are.This "sounds" intelligent . .but it makes no sense. How would you know what a spiritual blessing is, unless God reveals it to you as such? Seriously . . .a while back there was a conversation about people having things dropped into them while in the shower . . .nobody was studying . .no words were being defined . . .God just chose to freak people out because that's what God does . . .it's a spiritual relationship that manifests at any given moment . . .studying is not required. It's a great help, but to go on and on and on over one word . .as though an entire belief system and spiritual relationship pivots on getting that one thing right . . and you're doing it again here.
You're using the right Scriptures . .but your message isn't matching up to what the passages are saying.
John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.You quote this to me, and this has been my issue with you from the beginning. I've quoted this same thing to you bro. You're telling me flesh doesn't benefit anything . . .and yet it's the fleshly descriptions you're arguing about.
1Co 2:13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom,
but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words."And "this" is what we've been DOING all along only to have you accuse us of making up our own doctrines . . . ya got it all reversed.
Here is my 2 drachma's on flesh. When spoken of in scripture, they have two meanings, each related to the other. I call them the two p's (in a pod) :laughing7:
1) Physical soft tissue
2) Physical senses
They exist for 2 purposes, another 2 p's:
1)Protection
2)Pleasure
Physically, we are all in the flesh. Jesus was as well. However, in another sense, we are not. It is this sense which I have come to see as the following:
To be in the flesh is to live by our senses. We are our life. It leads, and because we are "in" it, we naturally follow. Simultaneously.
To be in the spirit is to live by the Lord. He is our life. He leads, and because we are in him, we naturally follow. Simultaneously
Ron
Tony, you wrote.....
It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.
I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w
What does hyper-spiritual mean?
Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?
Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?
cp
Quote from: Taffy on February 03, 2009, 09:37:43 PM
QuoteJust being able to read the original Greek and understand the original Greek is not enough to know what God has revealed. Only God can open the mind to know. But we have to read what the words are that God gave us so that God can open those words to our minds and hearts. If those words are mistranslated, then the transmission of what the true spiritual blessings are is lost.
Again T no ones Disputing the literal....
some Fine scholars in the wwcg...Earnest L Martin was one in his time ...Kinda paid three tithes too....maybe ya work mate may have heard of him..along with two others..L Ray Smith and Mike Vinson
:icon_flower:
Taffy, you wrote:
[/quote]Again T no ones Disputing the literal....[/quote]
I think that Nathan is disputing the literal because when I try to correct the mistranslation of psuchekon as "natural" that it should be "soulish" I am denigrated for trying to find the literal meaning of psuchekon. Otherwise I would not be going to all the trouble of defending my position.
I spoke a little with Mr. Martin on the phone a couple times. Didn't really know him personally. And spoke at one conference in Ohio with bro. L. Ray Smith and another conference with Mike Vinson if memory serves me correctly.
Anyway, peace bro.
Tony
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:02:03 PM
Tony, you wrote.....
It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.
I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w
What does hyper-spiritual mean?
Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?
Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?
cp
To me, hyper-spiritual is someone who goes beyond what the actual spiritual meaning of something is to something rather bizarro.
God is not hyper-spiritual.
I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.
This thread is so cool in the fact that God has just the right combination of people to keep it going. The repetition may be too much for some but it is good for me and I thank all involved. You all are some of the most patient people I know.
If I didn't think any better I would say Tony is playing an adversarial role to keep this thread alive to make a record of some sort. I think this only because when I review the arguments it seems the pro spiritual points win out dramatically over the pro physical but of course I am biased. My Father is spiritual, Jesus' words are spirit in nature (meaning?), our Holy Guide is Spirit, God's home turf is spiritual, the messengers are of a spirit nature and any who wish to worship God MUST worship Him in flesh....ooops I mean in SPIRIT and in truth.
Tony, you are a Brother. Keep up the good work. Walk in the spirit, eat spiritual food like Jesus did, pray to the Father who is Spirit and keep trying to make it all seem like a flesh show. We all learn in different ways.
cp
:cloud9: Amen cp, this really has been a bountiful thread, and God bless Tony for starting it, for sure God has used him. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 10:15:51 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:02:03 PM
Tony, you wrote.....
It doesn't say for us to change the "spiritual words" into hyper-spiritual meanings.
I asked you before and you had no answer but being you used the term again maybe now you do. My 2 questions are.......w
What does hyper-spiritual mean?
Could God be labeled as being hyper-spiritual?
Here's a third question. Would you consider yourself a hyper-literalist?
cp
To me, hyper-spiritual is someone who goes beyond what the actual spiritual meaning of something is to something rather bizarro.
God is not hyper-spiritual.
I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.
Tony, if you don't see God as 'bizarro' then what do consider bizaar? I mean this with all due respect to you and God but you gotta admit, God is way out there, in a good way ofcourse.
I know I do challenge God by experimenting with His word. I don't think I will ever out 'bizaar' Him though. To find meanings in His message to us that may seem too good to be true and that bring honor to Him and His Son is a good thing and to suggest that we can go too far in doing that is complimenting the creation more than it should be complimented.
I don't think I can ever out spirtitualize God or over spiritualize Him who is Spirit.
Tony, you wrote...
I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.I ask you, do you think you see beyond their literalness to the God who is not literal as you use the word literal?
cp
Quote from: Tony NAnyway, peace bro.
Tony
Right bac atcha Bud :icon_flower
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:35:27 PM
Tony, you wrote.....
Tony, if you don't see God as 'bizarro' then what do consider bizaar?
I am not a hyper-literalist because I don't make things to be literal beyond their literalness.
I ask you, do you think you see beyond their literalness to the God who is not literal as you use the word literal?
cp
To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"
And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.
I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.
Do I see beyond the literal? Of course, if it calls for it. A lamb sitting on the throne is not literally a lamb but Jesus. A sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not really a sword by His words which kill. We are not literally salt.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 03, 2009, 10:26:17 PM
:cloud9: Amen cp, this really has been a bountiful thread, and God bless Tony for starting it, for sure God has used him. :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"
And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.
It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines. This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem. And that is exactly what your doing.
Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it. I've had enough of this nonsense.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 11:36:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"
And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.
It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines. This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem. And that is exactly what your doing.
Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it. I've had enough of this nonsense.
Paul, no problem, friend. I take your post as positive criticism.
2Th 2:1-13 Now we are asking you, brethren, for the sake of the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to Him, (2) that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present." (3) No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction, (4) who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God? (5) Do you not remember that, still being with you, I told you these things? (6) And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era." (7) For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer may be coming to be out of the midst, (8)
then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence), (9)
whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles" (10) and with every seduction of injustice
among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation." (11) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood, (12) that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice." (13) Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,
The lawless one has not been unveiled yet. He has not come yet. He will come when that which is detaining him is taken out of the midst. We, the body of Christ detain him. When we meet the Lord in the air then he will be revealed.
I don't have a miracle working antichrist giving all power and signs and false miracles in my body. And that supposed antichrist which you say is in my body is not seducing those who are perishing with injustice because I receive the love of the truth for my salvation.
Sorry, friend but it is way wacked out hyper bizarro to think that is what Paul was telling the Thessalonians that they would be used to deceive the world.
God is not sending me an operation of deception to believe the falsehood of that man of lawlessness.
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"
And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.
I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.
Do I see beyond the literal? Of course, if it calls for it. A lamb sitting on the throne is not literally a lamb but Jesus. A sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not really a sword by His words which kill. We are not literally salt.
Tony, all I can say is I'm glad we got you to tell us exactly what Paul meant when he spoke. Yes I am being sarcastic but look at your words, Brother. I'm sorry but I have to agree with Paul.
Also that phrase you live by and 'see God' by is something I've heard before from another Brother and it is really a bizaar way to intepret what a
Spritual Being is communicating to us. That thing you said.....
I say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.Again, glad we have people like you to tell us when things should be literal physical and when they should be literal spiritual. My buddy I told you about who holds the above motto like you also argued with me that plucking out the eye was literal. When I told him hes got to be kidding, he replied that God wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean it and it sure would stop perverts from eyeing up good looking chicks. You are in a scary camp Brother. Good luck.
Why would that be your motto and guide to the Holy Scriptures? Ever hear of the spirit of the message?
Oh well, you can only see what you can see as I, so off I go to badger my Father with questions. Let me say though that some people baffle me more than God Himself. :dontknow:
cp
Tony, do you take the book Pilgrims Progress as literal? Any of it?
cp
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 11:36:36 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
To read of this:
2Th 2:4 "who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?"
And say that is talking about the antichrist dwelling in our flesh is way bizarro. It is not what Paul intended to transmit to the Thessalonians.
It certainly is possible that he was conveying something along those lines. This is the exact reason I left organized religion, Tony, those speaking as if their interpretation was what must be taken or everyone else has a problem. And that is exactly what your doing.
Please delete this post if it breaks forum rules, but I'll never apologize for it.
No need to apologise Paul....we are EACH intitled to our veiw.
Alas.I heard all this years Back about the Anti Christ ....makes me shudder to think of the thought...... :icon_flower:
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=3960.msg50138#msg50138 date=1233698657]
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
Quote
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
Wasnt HE born of the HOLY spirit, but tempted as all men. :bigGrin:
ohn 1:14 And the Word was
made flesh, and dwelt among us,
full of grace and truth
Molly, your words in bold....
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
Great question/s. IMO Adam is the beginning of God making man in His image. 'He' is the floundering babe. 'He' is the clay, the dirt, the material of man. Jesus, on the other hand, is Gods finished product, completely filled with the Spirit. A done deal.
Molly I did comment on your question about Adam having Scripture. Are you thinking Adam needed a King James Bible or some such literal written work? I believe the first words spoke to Adam were Scripture. They talked, God and Adam did.
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
Jesus did not obtain a quickening spirit, He is the resurrection and the life, He is the quickening spirit, He is the Son of God.
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
The above.
Molly, just like I see my life. I am born in a floundering ignorant state and through trials and tribulations and victories and defeats I become me. I am a created being and this means going from one state of being to another. I don't see Jesus as being created, to me, He is. In the beginning I just can't seem to 'defeat' Satan yet when I am mature I will defeat 'him' 'in Jesus'.
cp
Another reason I want to see all of Scripture in Gods language is because of all the people who can't or won't ever study the written word. All of our talk about Israel and new Jerusalem and redemption and baptism and tribes and natural and spiritual and on and on are only interesting to the 'choir'. I want to take Gods words and communicate the literal spirit of the message to others. To preach physical things seems way too limited for the needs of people. Sure, if your right hand offends you cut it off, is good physical teaching for someone with gangrene in their right hand but the spiritual message is for all people in all times.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 12:51:06 AM
Molly, your words in bold....
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
Great question/s. IMO Adam is the beginning of God making man in His image. 'He' is the floundering babe. 'He' is the clay, the dirt, the material of man. Jesus, on the other hand, is Gods finished product, completely filled with the Spirit. A done deal.
Molly I did comment on your question about Adam having Scripture. Are you thinking Adam needed a King James Bible or some such literal written work? I believe the first words spoke to Adam were Scripture. They talked, God and Adam did.
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
Jesus did not obtain a quickening spirit, He is the resurrection and the life, He is the quickening spirit, He is the Son of God.
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
The above.
Molly, just like I see my life. I am born in a floundering ignorant state and through trials and tribulations and victories and defeats I become me. I am a created being and this means going from one state of being to another. I don't see Jesus as being created, to me, He is. In the beginning I just can't seem to 'defeat' Satan yet when I am mature I will defeat 'him' 'in Jesus'.
cp
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead:
Tony,
re; man of lawlessness being revealed..or anti-Christ
stop and think; for example
would you beleive the religious spirit that sits as God in the Muslims..leading them to think that it is God and they are doing what God wants..could possibly be an anti-christ spirit
...and from there in all fairness,we who have the Holy spirit have dwelling in our flesh this lawlessness that does not
allow us to be OBEDIANT UNTO CHRIST SPIRIT IN US IN ALL THINGS..why can't we 'go and sin no more' while we are in this flesh..why do we still sin? it is a mystery; does not this same spirit of lawlessness in our flesh hinder us in the spirit?
Now, consider the parable when He returns,and in His presence
seperates the sheep and goats...to throw into the lake of fire
those who did not treat the brothers right..could this not be...
then will be unveiled the lawless one[whom the Lord Jesus
will dispatch with the Spirit of His mouth]
when the Lord says these words Then He will say to those on his left...depart from me,you who are cursed..into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Have any of us ever been deceived by a false Christ...
I was...I thought Jehovahs' wittnesses was the true church
of God..was there lying signs..yes, I prayed three different times to God..to know where to go..and three different times they showed up on my door..in different towns...
that was a little seed of faith in me..trying to find Him and led like a lamb to the slaughter..
instead of a fish...this lawless one and anti-christ spirit has handed us serpents...that little seed of faith in God in mankind
wasn't treated very well..they didn't clothe us with grace
or feed us with mercy
I truly beleive this above is the mystery revealed...
the mystery of lawlessness and godliness revealed
the spirit of anti-christ revealed.
sHEILA
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 11:16:42 PMI say: Literal when most likely, figurative when not.
Tony, your rule of thumb is circular.
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 12:18:03 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=3960.msg50138#msg50138 date=1233698657]
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
Quote
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
Wasnt HE born of the HOLY spirit, but tempted as all men. :bigGrin:
ohn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth
So we have a man in flesh who is not sinning.
And, he tells us (who are also in flesh),
Go and sin no more.Therefore, it must be possible to be in flesh (alive in a flesh body) and not sin.
Right? As far as being born of the Holy Spirit--this is open to us as well--
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --John 1
Quote from: sheila on February 04, 2009, 02:14:30 AM
Tony,
re; man of lawlessness being revealed..or anti-Christ
stop and think; for example
would you beleive the religious spirit that sits as God in the Muslims..leading them to think that it is God and they are doing what God wants..could possibly be an anti-christ spirit
...and from there in all fairness,we who have the Holy spirit have dwelling in our flesh this lawlessness that does not
allow us to be OBEDIANT UNTO CHRIST SPIRIT IN US IN ALL THINGS..why can't we 'go and sin no more' while we are in this flesh..why do we still sin? it is a mystery; does not this same spirit of lawlessness in our flesh hinder us in the spirit?
Now, consider the parable when He returns,and in His presence
seperates the sheep and goats...to throw into the lake of fire
those who did not treat the brothers right..could this not be...
then will be unveiled the lawless one[whom the Lord Jesus
will dispatch with the Spirit of His mouth]
when the Lord says these words Then He will say to those on his left...depart from me,you who are cursed..into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Have any of us ever been deceived by a false Christ...
I was...I thought Jehovahs' wittnesses was the true church
of God..was there lying signs..yes, I prayed three different times to God..to know where to go..and three different times they showed up on my door..in different towns...
that was a little seed of faith in me..trying to find Him and led like a lamb to the slaughter..
instead of a fish...this lawless one and anti-christ spirit has handed us serpents...that little seed of faith in God in mankind
wasn't treated very well..they didn't clothe us with grace
or feed us with mercy
I truly beleive this above is the mystery revealed...
the mystery of lawlessness and godliness revealed
the spirit of anti-christ revealed.
sHEILA
Shiela, Paul says the reason why we can't do all the righteousness we want to is due to the flesh. He never said Satan is dwelling in us.
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Well,
I guess we will just have to agree that we disagree.
.....it is the weakness of our flesh..and the corruption of it..that makes it hard to obey
..the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak
1Cor 1;25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's
wisdome, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
QuoteSatan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
What I don't like about this is it neutralizes evil (just some bad thoughts from my flesh) and it implies that I cannot be without satan being a part of me if he is inside of me. A house divided cannot stand. But, we have the mind of Christ.
I have seen evil..and it is not just some 'adversarial thoughts.'
Quote from: Tony N on February 02, 2009, 06:23:38 PM
Dear brother Bob,
Just a brief note:
Let's have another looky at Romans 5:12:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" KJV
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -" Concordant Literal
To say that death passes upon all men BECAUSE all sinned is to undo what Paul just stated.
He just stated that due to what Adam did, that sin entered the world, and through sin death.
So to day that death passed through into all men because all men sinned is to undo the fact that it is because of Adam's sin.
Hi Tony... thanks for your thoughts.
It only undoes your understanding of the verse, not mine.
Here is mine:
1. Adam sinned
2. So sin entered the world
3. Death also entered the world BY SIN (establishing the principle that sin ---> death)
4. Death then passed to all mankind
5. How? Because just like Adam, all sinned.
I see no contradiction in any of those 5 items and translations that say "because all sinned"
No where does it sasy that death passed to all men NOT DUE to their sin.
QuoteAnd we don't get condemned because we as humans act condemningly.
- John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
<br>
- Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
<br>
- Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
QuoteAll mankind get condemnation due to what Adam did, not what we do.
Yes, all mankind gets condemnation due to what Adam did. But where does it say the rest of what you wrote?
QuoteIn 5:19, all mankind are made sinners due to what Adam did, not "because all sinned."
"Made sinners" does not mean "were caused to sin" any more than "that the offence might abound" means people were caused to sin by the law.
"for where no law is, there is no transgression" and "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful" explain my understanding of "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." IOW there WAS sin in the world before the commandment, and God DID DEAL with sin ad sin (Sodom, Flood, etc.) but until a commandment is given, sin is not truly made known as sin.
The reason all mankind gets condemenation due to Adam is because "for the JUDGMENT was by one to condemnation." Judgment of what? Sin!
So then there are two causes of condemnation, not just one (Adam)
1. Sin
2. Judgment of sin<--- brought by Adam
Adam ushered in the ministry of condemnation & death (the TOKOGE). He did not cause anyone to sin.
All sin because we are just like Adam was before he sinned. Soulish.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 02:29:47 AM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 12:18:03 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=3960.msg50138#msg50138 date=1233698657]
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
Quote
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
Wasnt HE born of the HOLY spirit, but tempted as all men. :bigGrin:
ohn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth
So we have a man in flesh who is not sinning.
And, he tells us (who are also in flesh), Go and sin no more.
Therefore, it must be possible to be in flesh (alive in a flesh body) and not sin.
Right? As far as being born of the Holy Spirit--this is open to us as well--
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1
Who continued to walk in the cool of the day (SPIRIT) with the Father? CHRIST!
And, who hid himself, as he literally walked away from the SPIRIT? ADAM!
Along came the tempter – the lust of the eyes (understanding, i.e. the mind?), lust of the flesh (heart, i.e. emotion?) and the pride of life (all the desires of fame and fortune, etc., i.e. will?). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world – the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament.
Jesus and Adam, both, were subjected to the human (fleshly) nature (s); giving, surrendering or relinquishing control to that of another.
Adam was ruled by a natural headship, his own!
Jesus followed the headship of His Father –
"not my will, but yours be done."Seems they were equally tempted; internally and externally on both surfaces.
"Having the heart of Christ, and a renewed mind, is Not being bound to the universal imperatives of man and his religion."peacemaker
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
cp, what do you think of these verses?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for
his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth
not of faith: for whatsoever is
not of faith is sin. 1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is
born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even
our faith. Joh 11:26 And whosoever
liveth and
believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but
is passed from death unto life.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 12:04:17 AMIn other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
I would say it was the Father, and it was before He was resurrected or crucified.
- John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
<br>
- John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
John 6:24-26...
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (AV)
John 6: 26...
And everyone who is living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this? (CLV)
The proof that many who have the esteem of their fellowmen do not believe this is that they have to add modifying words to the text to explain its supposed true meaning. They insert the word "spiritual," a word Jesus used often enough that He could've certainly used it here if that was His intent. But, He didn't. He did NOT say: "Who is living and believing in Me shall never 'spiritually' die." He was instead announcing that the door into not dying was opened. Through His own death, burial and resurrection He secured an, "...open door, which no one is able to lock." (Rv 3:8) This is into partaking of the Divine nature. Rather than some distant and dubious "last day" in the maze of a religious riddle, Jesus opened it up, not dying for the least of us in the here and now. "Are you believing this?"
That this was a reality before the days of Jesus' flesh is attested to by numerous mentions in Scripture. Look at this one about Melchizedek when his superiority to the dying sons of Levi for receiving tithes is being explained. It says, "...one of whom it is attested that he is living." (Hb 7:8) The writer(s) of Hebrews lived in the first Century, about two thousand years after Abrahams day. The Greek is very clear. So much so that some commentators point out it is an unusual construction and then don't tell you why. They don't believe it. It was a reliable attestation that Melchizedek was alive at the time of the writing of the N.T., so sure it was recorded thusly therein.
Paul said in various ways that his personal overcoming death was the one thing he was pursuing. What God does is by faith. We are in a time that is anywhere from within a couple of hundred years at most to even that we have already entered into the Millennium. It is to be expected that there should be waves of power that are related to millions being resurrected. There should be prodigies, precursors, who signal the approach of our great transition. There should all the more be words, spirit and life words for ouf faith to accelerate our race against death, to reach the finish line before this last enemy can take us out. The finishing work is faith in a finishing word. The finishing is maturing, completing what the Author and Finisher of our faith began.
Look at the various parts of Scripture that have an acrostic form, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet sequentially begining a saying or a section. This is not just the book of life, but the very letters can bring life. The word is the seed body of the Spirit of life. You can notice in your own and others the working of the cherebim to prevent access to the tree of life. It is sometimes so impossible to just read the Scripture itself! So many are repulsed, giving various reasons to accept their diversion from the path of life. But O, to the overcomer..."To the conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the tree of life which is in the center of the paradise of God" (Rv 2:7) Not something in death! But access to those rising above death here! Here is where the battle is and here is where the decisive victory has been displayed by Jesus Christ. Here is from where we are to reign as Priests after the order of Melchizedek, from here into all the universe. (cf., Rm 4:13) They need what man is becoming.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 12:04:17 AM
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
The difference it told us here:
1Co 2:14 Now
the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also,
The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
1Co 15:48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
1Co 15:49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
First came the soulish: Adam
Soulish, being the adjective of "soul" tells us that Adam's basic makeup was pertaining to the soul, the seat of sensations. He was a soulish person.
Thereupon the spiritual: Christ
Spiritual, being the adjective of "spirit" tells us that Christ's basic makeup was pertaining to the spirit, that invisible power of divinity. He was a spiritual person.
A soulish man cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God and indeed cannot know them (1 Cor.2:14).
This is why Adam could not be obedient.
Another reason Adam could not be obedient because God created him flesh and that disposition of the flesh is death:
Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of
the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for
neither is it able."
Rom 8:8 Now
those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
But Christ was in spirit and was able to always please God, His Father. He always crucified the flesh.
QuoteAnd, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,'
The last Adam became a quickening spirit or vivifying spirit.
This is talking about when they came to walk on the earth in their first appearance.
When Adam was made he was made soulish.
When Christ was made He was made a quickening spirit.
This does not mean that when Christ walked the earth that He was invisible because they felt him, touched Him, crucified Him. You can't crucify a spirit.
He was made a quickening spirit because He has the complement of the deity dwelling bodily in Him.
Col 1:19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
Now that's what I call spiritual.
Now how do some of you hyper spiritualists make that even more spiritual above and beyond what it already is? It already is spiritual. You can't make something spiritual more spiritual.
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
Of course I sin. I sinned once a few years ago but it wasn't my fault. :laughing7:
cp, just because you at times are adversarial does not mean you have THE Adversary, Satan within you.
Christ said His words are spirit and are life. You can't make his words more spirit then what they already are. You can't make them more life than what they already are. They already are what they are.
I sin because of this:
Rom 7:23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
It is what it is.
claypot . . . I ask you this again. The antichrist's modus operandi will be:
2Th 2:9-10 whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles" (10) and with every seduction of injustice among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation."
How have you been exhibiting ALL power, signs and false miracles?
It is not just enough to day that if you are adversarial that you have THE Adversary in you. You also have to have all power, signs and false miracles. You have to have these cp to be that antichrist.
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 12:04:17 AM
Ok I'm going to ask my question again, because I'm still wrestling with this--
What is the difference between Jesus and Adam--as men? Why is Jesus obedient
and Adam is not? Again, Jesus uses scripture to fight satan which Adam does not have--
is that the difference?
And, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,' -- is that something Jesus had
before the cross? Or did that only happen after the resurrection? [for instance,
we see him use it when he breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples]. It must be
something he had before the cross because he said his words were spirit and life.
So, where did it come from?
In other words--What made Jesus spiritual and Adam not?
The difference it told us here:
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
1Co 15:48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
1Co 15:49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
First came the soulish: Adam
Soulish, being the adjective of "soul" tells us that Adam's basic makeup was pertaining to the soul, the seat of sensations. He was a soulish person.
Thereupon the spiritual: Christ
Spiritual, being the adjective of "spirit" tells us that Christ's basic makeup was pertaining to the spirit, that invisible power of divinity. He was a spiritual person.
A soulish man cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God and indeed cannot know them (1 Cor.2:14).
This is why Adam could not be obedient.
Another reason Adam could not be obedient because God created him flesh and that disposition of the flesh is death:
Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."
Rom 8:8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
But Christ was in spirit and was able to always please God, His Father. He always crucified the flesh.
QuoteAnd, how does one obtain a 'quickening spirit,'
The last Adam became a quickening spirit or vivifying spirit.
This is talking about when they came to walk on the earth in their first appearance.
When Adam was made he was made soulish.
When Christ was made He was made a quickening spirit.
This does not mean that when Christ walked the earth that He was invisible because they felt him, touched Him, crucified Him. You can't crucify a spirit.
He was made a quickening spirit because He has the complement of the deity dwelling bodily in Him.
Col 1:19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
Now that's what I call spiritual.
Now how do some of you hyper spiritualists make that even more spiritual above and beyond what it already is? It already is spiritual. You can't make something spiritual more spiritual.
Maybe T, youve been hanging around this thread to long Bud, and such things be WASHING over ya some :HeartThrob:
If I were you bro..Id consider your comments on HYper spiritual..they be your words..Not scripture..., would it ,therefore be fair to consider you a HYPER literalist not unlike Like Nicodemus..are still awaiting to be Born again and Climb back in ya Mums womb.... :icon_king:
yous funny bro..and as Bob mentioned your rule of thumb be circular :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 01:50:30 PM
Of course I sin. I sinned once a few years ago but it wasn't my fault. :laughing7:
A bit like some people that are only drunk once a week; from Friday to Friday? :beerburp:
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 02:12:17 PM
Maybe T, youve been hanging around this thread to long Bud, and such things be WASHING over ya some :HeartThrob:
If I were you bro..Id consider your comments on HYper spiritual..they be your words..Not scripture..., would it ,therefore be fair to consider you a HYPER literalist not unlike Like Nicodemus..are still awaiting to be Born again and Climb back in ya Mums womb.... :icon_king:
yous funny bro..and as Bob mentioned your rule of thumb be circular :thumbsup:
Hey Taffy, what up dawg?
I agree that Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about. Even Jesus said he, being a teacher should know these things. The actual literal application of what Jesus was talking about was Israel, as a nation, being begotten anew in a day. When Jesus said "you" as in "you must be begotten anew" the "you" is plural. He was not telling Nicodemus that he, personally, had to be begotten anew.
Jesus was telling ole Nic about the terrestrial or earthly:
Joh 3:12 If I told you of the terrestrial and you are not believing, how shall you be believing if I should be telling you of the celestial?
The terrestrial was concerning Israel being begotten anew. Since Nic didn't get that, how could Jesus tell him of other things pertaining to the heavens or celestial?
Dear Taffy,
is it circular reasoning that if the antichrist or man of lawlessness in the temple is showing he is God by all power, signs and false miracles that for one to have this antichrist in their bodies as you folks claim that you should also have these powers, signs and false miracles? Of course not. What it does is beg the question: where are the signs, false miracles and all power if he is in you?
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 05:03:26 AM
QuoteSatan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
What I don't like about this is it neutralizes evil (just some bad thoughts from my flesh) and it implies that I cannot be without satan being a part of me if he is inside of me. A house divided cannot stand. But, we have the mind of Christ.
I have seen evil..and it is not just some 'adversarial thoughts.'
Molly, you are greatly trivializing adversarial thoughts. From these come horrible actions.
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he prov 23.7An adversarial mind in no way neutralizes evil, it is its very source, it perpetuates it.
Satan is not some being running around with a pitch fork. Wisdom is personified in Scripture but wisdom is within.
Do you see this?
cp
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 01:50:30 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
Of course I sin. I sinned once a few years ago but it wasn't my fault. :laughing7:
cp, just because you at times are adversarial does not mean you have THE Adversary, Satan within you.
Christ said His words are spirit and are life. You can't make his words more spirit then what they already are. You can't make them more life than what they already are. They already are what they are.
I sin because of this:
Rom 7:23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
It is what it is.
claypot . . . I ask you this again. The antichrist's modus operandi will be:
2Th 2:9-10 whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles" (10) and with every seduction of injustice among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation."
How have you been exhibiting ALL power, signs and false miracles?
It is not just enough to day that if you are adversarial that you have THE Adversary in you. You also have to have all power, signs and false miracles. You have to have these cp to be that antichrist.
Good to hear you admit that you sin and that it is because of something adversarial in your being that causes it. You are implying you sin because your spirit is at war with your flesh. I see this in you too, very clearly. You are resisting the spirit IMO and sin is resulting. You are admitting that you are led into capitivity, you sin.
Tony, because I say I have an adversarial spirit I am not claiming to be THE ANTI CHRIST any more than because I have the spirit of God within I am claiming to be JESUS CHRIST.
satan, saw-tawn'; from Hebrew 07853 (satan); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good :-
adversary, Satan, withstand.
Tony, do you claim to be Jesus Christ?
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 03:23:22 PM
Satan is not some being running around with a pitch fork. Wisdom is personified in Scripture but wisdom is within.
cp
Another straw man.
I don't think Molly believes Satan is running around with a pitch fork. But he certainly us running around.
He presented himself before God among the sons of God in the days of Job.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff, the Adversary, is walking about as a roaring lion, seeking someone to swallow up;"
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 03:45:14 PM
Good to hear you admit that you sin and that it is because of something adversarial in your being that causes it. You are implying you sin because your spirit is at war with your flesh. I see this in you too, very clearly. You are resisting the spirit IMO and sin is resulting. You are admitting that you are led into capitivity, you sin.
Tony, because I say I have an adversarial spirit I am not claiming to be THE ANTI CHRIST any more than because I have the spirit of God within I am claiming to be JESUS CHRIST.
satan, saw-tawn'; from Hebrew 07853 (satan); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good :-
adversary, Satan, withstand.
Tony, do you claim to be Jesus Christ?
cp
O.K. then, just come clean cp. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not to be interpreted as the antichrist being inside of you and that therefore it has not come to pass yet.
Jesus and I are one.
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:10:26 AM
cp, what do you think of these verses?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Hey Zeek, whatever in me that is born of God does not sin. It is a holy thing within my essence, my temple so to speak. I live and believe in God and in His Son who is within causing me to be resurrected to a new life.
Again Zeek, IMO, this is a process. Creation implies a process. God always was, is and always will be. I am being made, am made, and will be made in the image of God.
Is this answering your question. You have asked it often and it is a good question but are you seeing what I am trying so feebly to communicate to you?
cp
Good Mornin Bro :icon_flower:
co-operate but equally singular, have no problem with that Bud... :HeartThrob:
Alas such folk of their day just understood the shadow, the Form of Truth ( Rom2-19-21) ,
Flesh is Flesh, spirit is spirit ...the RE-vealing of the shadow( by that which was written) comes via the Unveiling through the Spirit.,...
wow Up there me bud. :icon_flower:
My Flesh is Dead , and for sure dont believe that Satan dwells in me...That which was adverse exists No longer , for the MOUTH( New Tongue) speaks TRUTH of the ONE WHO IS TRUTH...proclaiming the One who is the KINGDOM....
Tis these folks who spoke with adversity, deciet and Guile ,who proclaim to be God sitting in the Temple...., Menstealers , stealing the hearts of MEN who belong to Christ
such Folk are dead folk..alas they dont realise it.
Mat 23:27 "How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs--beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people's bones and all sorts of impurity.
Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Psa 5:9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their*** inward part [is] very wickedness**; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 32:2 Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.
Psa 34:13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
No Satan here Im afraid...Not In this Temple. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 03:23:22 PM
Satan is not some being running around with a pitch fork. Wisdom is personified in Scripture but wisdom is within.
cp
Another straw man.
I don't think Molly believes Satan is running around with a pitch fork. But he certainly us running around.
He presented himself before God among the sons of God in the days of Job.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff, the Adversary, is walking about as a roaring lion, seeking someone to swallow up;"
Kinda Flesh lives off flesh until one is consumed and then their spirit will be saved
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 03:54:04 PM
My Flesh is Dead , and for sure dont believe that Satan dwells in me...That which was adverse exists No longer , for the MOUTH( New Tongue) speaks TRUTH of the ONE WHO IS TRUTH...proclaiming the One who is the KINGDOM....
AMEN AMEN Taffy,
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 03:50:48 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 03:45:14 PM
Good to hear you admit that you sin and that it is because of something adversarial in your being that causes it. You are implying you sin because your spirit is at war with your flesh. I see this in you too, very clearly. You are resisting the spirit IMO and sin is resulting. You are admitting that you are led into capitivity, you sin.
Tony, because I say I have an adversarial spirit I am not claiming to be THE ANTI CHRIST any more than because I have the spirit of God within I am claiming to be JESUS CHRIST.
satan, saw-tawn'; from Hebrew 07853 (satan); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good :-
adversary, Satan, withstand.
Tony, do you claim to be Jesus Christ?
cp
O.K. then, just come clean cp. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not to be interpreted as the antichrist being inside of you and that therefore it has not come to pass yet.
Jesus and I are one.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2THES 2Sorry Tony, this is a perfect description of what I see going on in me and, sorry Bud, but in you too. You skirted my question about you being Jesus Christ because you have the Spirit of God in you. You said you and Jesus were one but you couldn't bring yourself to say you were Jesus Christ of which I'm glad. I am not saying because people have all this adversarial activity going on within them that they are the anti christ but I am saying they are adversarial to God in certain ways. This is not to minimize that when Jesus Christ is revealed within GALATIANS 1.15 that the works of the adversary is not destroyed as is described beautifully in Thes too.
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {his...: Gr. the angels of his power} 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {taking: or, yielding} 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you 2thes 1.6Man, this brings tears to my eyes when viewed as going on within me this very second!
Wish you could see it Brother. You will.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:10:26 AM
cp, what do you think of these verses?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Hey Zeek, whatever in me that is born of God does not sin. It is a holy thing within my essence, my temple so to speak. I live and believe in God and in His Son who is within causing me to be resurrected to a new life.
Again Zeek, IMO, this is a process. Creation implies a process. God always was, is and always will be. I am being made, am made, and will be made in the image of God.
Is this answering your question. You have asked it often and it is a good question but are you seeing what I am trying so feebly to communicate to you?
cp
creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".
via faith
so do you see "life" as needing to be further created??
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:10:26 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
cp, what do you think of these verses?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Zeek, John also wrote this:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiatory shelter
concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh, which we all have has its own law which causes us to sin.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What of the boy who had sexual relations with his father's mother in Corinthians? He was still a believer.
Christians can and do do things against the brethren:
1Co 8:12
But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Have you never lusted after anything?
So, yes, of course Christians do sin.
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 05:21:33 PM
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:10:26 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 04:50:04 AM
Hey Tony, you wrote...
claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.
Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?
This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.
Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?
You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.
This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.
Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?
cp
cp, what do you think of these verses?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Zeek, John also wrote this:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh, which we all have has its own law which causes us to sin.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What of the boy who had sexual relations with his father's mother in Corinthians? He was still a believer.
Christians can and do do things against the brethren:
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Have you never lusted after anything?
So, yes, of course Christians do sin.
so how do you reconcile this verse Tony?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God
doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is born of God
something not really possible???
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 05:31:35 PM
so how do you reconcile this verse Tony?
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
something not really possible???
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible states:
1Jo 3:9 -
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous."
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible states:
1Jo 3:9 -
"Whosoever is born of God - Γεγεννημενος, Begotten of God, doth not commit sin: "that is," say some, "as he used to do, he does not sin habitually as he formerly did."
Now Tony . . .if you're going to be a literalist, you have to be consistent with it .. .Scripture says nothing of "habitually" sinning . . .I've heard this argument before . . .you claim "we" change things so we can "hyper-spiritualize" (another of your "invented" words) and yet, you do the same thing. If you are going to build your belief system on what is literally written, then you can't be adding words that aren't there.
This whole argument with you and others like you is so messed up. This is all based on a SPIRITUAL experience in Christ. And yet you continue trying to hold the spiritual fort down with natural reasoning . . .jeeze . . .so here we go again . . .
If I am IN CHRIST . . .which not only is a person . .but it's also a dimension, a realm . . .a "kingdom" . . .If I am IN Christ, I am in the SPIRIT. I am still a physical person, but as such, I have the ability to also be in spirit as well. That's what separates us from animals. And WHEN I see myself IN Christ . . .then I also am not measuring my outer court. I'm not measuring my righteousness by my success and failures of obedience . . .therefore . . .I'm not focussing on missing the mark . .because I have entered into a realm of GRACE that covers my sin.
If you want to live as an earth-dweller . .then you'll see nothing but sin and destruction . .but if you choose to live in a resurrected state, then you can see that the blood overrides the sin . .the inability to achieve righteousness through natural means.
You're not a sinner because you sin . . .you sin because you are a sinner . .you were BORN into being one. It was totally out of your control due to the first Adam. And just as being born into sin was out of your control . . .so is being redeemed back to God out of your control as well. If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS.
Like everything else . .it's all in the perspective you choose to walk in.
QuoteIf you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS.
Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:
"It meant Nothing!"
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Zeek, you wrote....
creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".
via faith
so do you see "life" as needing to be further created??
I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.
Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".
via faith
so do you see "life" as needing to be further created??
I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.
Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.
cp
Ok, but I still struggle with your posts,
are you on that journey from death to life now, (part death, part life?)
or are you alive now?
If you see yourself as still being created, then I would take it you see yourself not "alive" yet??
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and
in you: because the
darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:42:51 PM
QuoteIf you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS.
Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:
"It meant Nothing!"
Yeah, that doesn't work with my wife either . . . :dontknow:
I'm not saying your actions don't have cosequences, I'm saying your actions do not affect your righteousness/salvation/standing with God. The price for "that" positition has been paid by the only one worthy of paying it . . .and that is of course Christ.
But one thing we seem to miss with this is Philippians that talks about Christ working "in" me both to "will" and to "do" his good pleasure. It's not by "my" works, but through "his" works IN me that bring the maturity in me, and pleasure to him.
In other words . ..if Christ is in you . . .the ungodly things in you WILL CHANGE . .meaning YOU will change. So for me, as the sins become known to me, that's a picture of dross coming to the top to be removed from the melting gold/silver as it goes through . . .to Zeek's point . . the purifying process of life in Christ.
It's not about sin in me, it's about light shining out . . .but when we walk in "our" nature, we walk in the fallen state of the first Adam and everything has a fallen tint to it. But when we live "in" Christ, everything has a resurrected tint to it. Which set of eye wear do you choose to put on?
QuoteI agree that Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about. Even Jesus said he, being a teacher should know these things. The actual literal application of what Jesus was talking about was Israel, as a nation, being begotten anew in a day.
hello T.
i understand this interpretation but why did Jesus say:
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
why didnt he just say ""nation""
thanks
chuckt
2Thes2.3 the man doomed to destruction is the old man of each person. It is the story of 'Adam', every single person. The Spirit is saying 'Hey everyone, you will go from a rough state to a perfect state of being. Let me explain it this way'....and then goes on to write 2 Thes. We are purged of the scaffolding as the finishing touches are completed.
2Thes 2.7 talks of the secret of lawlessness. It works until it is taken out, then my sin is revealed and Jesus overthrows it.
The whole physical world of people is a living (or dead if you will) picture of what is going on within people. There are people who do evil and refuse God and are deluded and who delight in wickedness.
I see in my members that I delight in wickedness, I do evil, I refuse God and so on. I also know that Jesus Christ is destroying, has destroyed and will destroy this 'man' in ME. Jesus is freeing the new man ME. All praise and glory to the Lord!
Molly, I agree with you that we don't take responsibility for being sinners as we should. I hope you see I take it very seriously. Scripture is a story of ME and YOU. You are a satan filled sinner and you are a Christ filled child of God. YOU are. This is YOU and ME, NOW!!! Because of Jesus Christ you ultimately be only a Holy Spirit filled person but now you have other unseemly elements in your very essence.
Tony, I want to apologize for trying to take from you that which you feel gives you life and meaning. The Lord gives to me and you and to all in the good timing of God. I want to continue to discuss these things from my original perspective and that is to grow in God.
The trees do not move the wind. It is the wind that moves the trees. The invisible moves the visible.
I seek to dematerialize myself. I am finding it fascinating that science is taking the physical and, from the physical, finding out it is the invisible things that are the core of all life. I'm thinking of super string physics. Look at a table and many will say it is a physical thing of matter. Light the table on fire and it is reduced to a whole other form, an invisible form yet it is the table still.
Just some thoughts.
cp
Quote from: reFORMer on February 04, 2009, 08:28:37 AM
John 6:24-26...
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (AV)
John 6: 26...
And everyone who is living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this? (CLV)
The proof that many who have the esteem of their fellowmen do not believe this is that they have to add modifying words to the text to explain its supposed true meaning. They insert the word "spiritual," a word Jesus used often enough that He could've certainly used it here if that was His intent. But, He didn't. He did NOT say: "Who is living and believing in Me shall never 'spiritually' die." He was instead announcing that the door into not dying was opened. Through His own death, burial and resurrection He secured an, "...open door, which no one is able to lock." (Rv 3:8) This is into partaking of the Divine nature. Rather than some distant and dubious "last day" in the maze of a religious riddle, Jesus opened it up, not dying for the least of us in the here and now. "Are you believing this?"
That this was a reality before the days of Jesus' flesh is attested to by numerous mentions in Scripture. Look at this one about Melchizedek when his superiority to the dying sons of Levi for receiving tithes is being explained. It says, "...one of whom it is attested that he is living." The writer(s) of Hebrews lived in the first Century, about two thousand years after Abrahams day. The Greek is very clear. So much so that some commentators point out it is an unusual construction and then don't tell you why. They don't believe it. It was a reliable attestation that Melchizedek was alive at the time of the writing of the N.T., so sure it was recorded thusly therein.
Paul said in various ways that his personal overcoming death was the one thing he was pursuing. What God does is by faith. We are in a time that is anywhere from within a couple of hundred years at most to even that we have already entered into the Millennium. It is to be expected that there should be waves of power that are related to millions being resurrected. There should be prodigies, precursors, who signal the approach of our great transition. There should all the more be words, spirit and life words for ouf faith to accelerate our race against death, to reach the finish line before this last enemy can take us out. The finishing work is faith in a finishing word. The finishing is maturing, completing what the Author and Finisher of our faith began.
Look at the various parts of Scripture that have an acrostic form, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet sequentially begining a saying or a section. This is not just the book of life, but the very letters can bring life. The word is the seed body of the Spirit of life. You can notice in your own and others the working of the cherebim to prevent access to the tree of life. It is sometimes so impossible to just read the Scripture itself! So many are repulsed, giving various reasons to accept their diversion from the path of life. But O, to the overcomer..."To the conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the tree of life which is in the center of the paradise of God" (Rv 2:7) Not something in death! But access to those rising above death here! Here is where the battle is and here is where the decisive victory has been displayed by Jesus Christ. Here is from where we are to reign as Priests after the order of Melchizedek, from here into all the universe. (cf., Rm 4:13) They need what man is becoming.
:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! The first thing the Spirit of the Lord ever spoke thru my mouth, completely bypassing my mind, was at a bible study about 22 years ago. What He said was, that we had a BETTER COVENANT than the men of old that lived to nearly a thousand years old, and that the completion of this inworking of the covenant within us, would be that we would not die as men, but overcome death while still in the body.
We don't overcome death by dying, we overcome it by NOT dying. When He rebuked them, saying, "Have I not said ye are gods and ye die like men?", He was rebuking them for the METHOD of dying, as in, like men, instead of like "gods". How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than this, that He lay down His life for His friends. Jesus said, speaking what He heard the Father speak, "No man takes my life, I lay it down willingly."
The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.
He was proved a Son of God that could not die by the resurrection, not because we have to die and resurrect to prove the same, but because in God's timing and plan, Christ living forever in the flesh of the last Adam would not be believing by faith for us. Also; generations having been shortened by sin, men would keep on dying before they really had time to fully realize, that HE WASN'T, and even then it wouldn't be revealed by faith, but by sight.
He DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.
The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place. Blessings....
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".
via faith
so do you see "life" as needing to be further created??
I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.
Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.
cp
Ok, but I still struggle with your posts,
are you on that journey from death to life now, (part death, part life?)
or are you alive now?
If you see yourself as still being created, then I would take it you see yourself not "alive" yet??
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Zeek, do you see that it is not a time thing here? I am being created and I am a finished creation. Can you understand this? It is hard for me to understand but I kind of see the truth of it.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on February 04, 2009, 07:24:24 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on February 04, 2009, 08:28:37 AM
John 6:24-26...
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (AV)
John 6: 26...
And everyone who is living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this? (CLV)
The proof that many who have the esteem of their fellowmen do not believe this is that they have to add modifying words to the text to explain its supposed true meaning. They insert the word "spiritual," a word Jesus used often enough that He could've certainly used it here if that was His intent. But, He didn't. He did NOT say: "Who is living and believing in Me shall never 'spiritually' die." He was instead announcing that the door into not dying was opened. Through His own death, burial and resurrection He secured an, "...open door, which no one is able to lock." (Rv 3:8) This is into partaking of the Divine nature. Rather than some distant and dubious "last day" in the maze of a religious riddle, Jesus opened it up, not dying for the least of us in the here and now. "Are you believing this?"
That this was a reality before the days of Jesus' flesh is attested to by numerous mentions in Scripture. Look at this one about Melchizedek when his superiority to the dying sons of Levi for receiving tithes is being explained. It says, "...one of whom it is attested that he is living." The writer(s) of Hebrews lived in the first Century, about two thousand years after Abrahams day. The Greek is very clear. So much so that some commentators point out it is an unusual construction and then don't tell you why. They don't believe it. It was a reliable attestation that Melchizedek was alive at the time of the writing of the N.T., so sure it was recorded thusly therein.
Paul said in various ways that his personal overcoming death was the one thing he was pursuing. What God does is by faith. We are in a time that is anywhere from within a couple of hundred years at most to even that we have already entered into the Millennium. It is to be expected that there should be waves of power that are related to millions being resurrected. There should be prodigies, precursors, who signal the approach of our great transition. There should all the more be words, spirit and life words for ouf faith to accelerate our race against death, to reach the finish line before this last enemy can take us out. The finishing work is faith in a finishing word. The finishing is maturing, completing what the Author and Finisher of our faith began.
Look at the various parts of Scripture that have an acrostic form, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet sequentially begining a saying or a section. This is not just the book of life, but the very letters can bring life. The word is the seed body of the Spirit of life. You can notice in your own and others the working of the cherebim to prevent access to the tree of life. It is sometimes so impossible to just read the Scripture itself! So many are repulsed, giving various reasons to accept their diversion from the path of life. But O, to the overcomer..."To the conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the tree of life which is in the center of the paradise of God" (Rv 2:7) Not something in death! But access to those rising above death here! Here is where the battle is and here is where the decisive victory has been displayed by Jesus Christ. Here is from where we are to reign as Priests after the order of Melchizedek, from here into all the universe. (cf., Rm 4:13) They need what man is becoming.
:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! The first thing the Spirit of the Lord ever spoke thru my mouth, completely bypassing my mind, was at a bible study about 22 years ago. What He said was, that we had a BETTER COVENANT than the men of old that lived to nearly a thousand years old, and that the completion of this inworking of the covenant within us, would be that we would not die as men, but overcome death while still in the body.
We don't overcome death by dying, we overcome it by NOT dying. When He rebuked them, saying, "Have I not said ye are gods and ye die like men?", He was rebuking them for the METHOD of dying, as in, like men, instead of like "gods". How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than this, that He lay down His life for His friends. Jesus said, speaking what He heard the Father speak, "No man takes my life, I lay it down willingly."
The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.
He was proved a Son of God that could not die by the resurrection, not because we have to die and resurrect to prove the same, but because in God's timing and plan, Christ living forever in the flesh of the last Adam would not be believing by faith for us. Also; generations having been shortened by sin, men would keep on dying before they really had time to fully realize, that HE WASN'T, and even then it wouldn't be revealed by faith, but by sight.
He DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.
The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place. Blessings....
wow! :mshock:
Remembering that spiritual realities are demonstrated by physical shadows, what in the physical can we all see that demonstrates how we are in life today and the process of being produced again? This might help nail down some understanding.
Ron
QuoteHe DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.
The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: gregoryfl on February 04, 2009, 07:29:33 PM
Remembering that spiritual realities are demonstrated by physical shadows, what in the physical can we all see that demonstrates how we are in life today and the process of being produced again? This might help nail down some understanding.
Ron
Doubt it Ron..been saying it for yrs..falls on many deaf ears...but i agree wid ya never the less :icon_flower:
Card, you wrote..
The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.
So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."
Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 07:33:13 PM
Card, you wrote..
The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.
So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."
Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.
cp
yeah, now if people would just believe it, too. They would stop trying to kill each other, and start honoring life.
I was thinking about ..no man has ever hated his own flesh
but cherishes it and feeds it.....and how He feeds us spiritually to grow...and brings the spirit of 'life" to us.
but how He also..gives no such word of life to the things that
are not of Him in us.but instructs us to put to death these thngs 1 John 2;8 ...but because the darkness is 'passing' and the true light is already shining...
also the making of former things obsolete..
I once heard a voice from heaven declare to me....
"but man is Not responsible for sin"
He has taken the condemnation and
responsibility of our sinful state off of our shoulders...
His Son bore that burden to the cross...and removed
the accusation of it from us...also He has told us
the creature was not subjected to vanity of it's own will..
but by the will of Him who subjected it.
sin will soon become obsolete..it is passing away
He can declare us 'perfect' in our generation....[our begettal
in Him]
vessels of mercy fitted for glory[ that being the Glory of God]
He feeds us,clothes us, visits us when we are sick or in prison
Nurtures the new creature and delivers it
making us free from 'vanity' that which is vanishing...
and delivering us into immortality
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 07:33:13 PM
Card, you wrote..
The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.
So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."
Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.
cp
yeah, now if people would just believe it, too. They would stop trying to kill each other, and start honoring life.
We will Molly, by God, we will! God is not done yet!
cp
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:42:51 PM
QuoteIf you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS.
Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:
"It meant Nothing!"
"It means nothing. Buy some more the woman said. :happy3:
Quote from: Sheilasin will soon become obsolete..it is passing away
Just like the old covenant. I hope so. I am so sick of it. Good riddance!
But, man has to know he can live without sin--so he will grow up. The church tells man repeatedly he is a sinner--but look here, say these things and all will be well--go and sin another day...
Sheila you wrote...
I once heard a voice from heaven declare to me....
"but man is Not responsible for sin"
I hear ya. I don't think the word 'responsibility' is the right word either although I've used it. You got me thinking. It's like man is. People are. Sure we make decisions and we reap what we sow but even our decisions come from who we are.
I think what I mean by being responsible is just realizing who we are and admitting it. We are works of God in progress and we are completed works of God. We admit we have some relationship with sin and death and we admit we have been 'saved' and are being 'saved' and will ultimately be 'saved' from sin and death.
We are not responsible for being created and being made capable of all the crap we do but we do reap what we sow, fact!
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 07:24:57 PM
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
Zeek, you wrote....
creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".
via faith
so do you see "life" as needing to be further created??
I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.
Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.
cp
Ok, but I still struggle with your posts,
are you on that journey from death to life now, (part death, part life?)
or are you alive now?
If you see yourself as still being created, then I would take it you see yourself not "alive" yet??
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Zeek, do you see that it is not a time thing here? I am being created and I am a finished creation. Can you understand this? It is hard for me to understand but I kind of see the truth of it.
cp
hi cp, i appreciate your responses to me, and totally respect where you are at and your humble reliance on our savior.
when u say this "is not a time" issue;
do u think that is what John meant when he was writing to his fellow friends at that time; ie:
"hey guys, the darkness is past, and light now shineth; but not really; it appears that way, and actually is, but not really. I don't mean "past" in the sense of time, but actually I kind of do; actually what i really mean is I'm calling something as done, even though it really isnt'; after all that's what God does; he said it's finsished; but he really didn't mean it, at least in the realm of time".
do you see something as being different now (2000 years later) that allows you to "spiritualize" all scripture? or do you think that's what the first century christians were doing also.
ie: in I John, John talks about antichrists coming into the world, that he called a "they". Do you think those he wrote the letter to were supposed to really go, "oh he's talking about the inner me, the antichrist within me"??
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because
the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because
ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because
ye have known the Father. 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and
ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 2:18 Little children,
it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
antichrist shall come, even
now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that
denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
sincerly asking.
cp I know what you mean :thumbsup:
we ARE instructed to follow Him...show love to our
brothers/freinds
being willing to lay down our life..for them..to take it up anew
being crucified in our flesh because some say we blaspheme
the spirit of God
Now, there is the physical fulfillment of that[literal]
and a spiritual fulfillment.
Now, if I be lifted UP, I will draw all men unto myself
we know the literal...the disciples did that..died martyrs
but I was thinking about the spiritual...they fulfilled it also
in their walk..being persecuted and accused of blashemy
for declaring the things revealed by the Holy spirit.and
the word of God come in flesh
......such good things coming out here today
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:32:23 PM
Now Tony . . .if you're going to be a literalist, you have to be consistent with it .. .Scripture says nothing of "habitually" sinning . . .I've heard this argument before . . .you claim "we" change things so we can "hyper-spiritualize" (another of your "invented" words) and yet, you do the same thing. If you are going to build your belief system on what is literally written, then you can't be adding words that aren't there.
Nathan, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Since John said that "if a person does sin, they have an advocate with the Father" . . . and also said "everyone begotten of God is not doing sin" . . . there is a problem. If both statements are taken at face value then John has contradicted himself.
QuoteThis whole argument with you and others like you is so messed up. This is all based on a SPIRITUAL experience in Christ. And yet you continue trying to hold the spiritual fort down with natural reasoning . . .jeeze . . .so here we go again . . .
John never wrote about the "in Christ" relationship.
QuoteIf I am IN CHRIST . . .which not only is a person . .but it's also a dimension, a realm . . .a "kingdom" . . .If I am IN Christ, I am in the SPIRIT. I am still a physical person, but as such, I have the ability to also be in spirit as well. That's what separates us from animals. And WHEN I see myself IN Christ . . .then I also am not measuring my outer court. I'm not measuring my righteousness by my success and failures of obedience . . .therefore . . .I'm not focussing on missing the mark . .because I have entered into a realm of GRACE that covers my sin.
I appreciate your thoughts on the in Christ relationship. I too believe that is so for me as well, though the "in Christ" relationship is never spoken of as a "realm or kingdom".
QuoteIf you want to live as an earth-dweller . .then you'll see nothing but sin and destruction . .but if you choose to live in a resurrected state, then you can see that the blood overrides the sin . .the inability to achieve righteousness through natural means.
I agree with what you just wrote above. Paul tells us to live our lives as if we are alive from among the dead (Romans 6:13) and be alive to God. I too try to do that.
QuoteYou're not a sinner because you sin . . .you sin because you are a sinner . .you were BORN into being one. It was totally out of your control due to the first Adam. And just as being born into sin was out of your control . . .so is being redeemed back to God out of your control as well. If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS.
In Romans 5 we are told (and I agree with you) that we sin due to death entering into us and that we were made sinners due to what Adam did. So, yes, I agree I was born into being a sinner. That is an excellent thought about it being out of our control. Excellent indeed.
QuoteLike everything else . .it's all in the perspective you choose to walk in.
But I wonder if John was writing about the "in Christ" relationship since he never mentions it in any of his writings.
Paul told the Cornithians that they were sinning:
1Co 8:11-12 For the weak one is perishing also by your knowledge; the brother because of whom Christ died. (12)
Now in thus sinning against brethren, and beating their weak conscience,
you are sinning against Christ."
And if it is impossible for one who is in Christ to sin, why did Paul write this:
2Co 12:21 Not again at my coming will my God be humbling me toward you, and I shall be mourning
for many who have sinned before and are not repenting of the uncleanness and prostitution and wantonness
which they commit."
2Co 13:2 I have declared before, and am predicting as when being present the second time, and now, being absent, to
those having sinned before and to all the rest, that if I should be coming again,
I shall not spare, "
1Tim. 5:20
Those who are sinning be exposing in the sight of all, that the rest also may have fear."
Tit 3:10-11 A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse, (11) being aware that such a one has turned himself out,
and is sinning, being self-condemned."
The boy who had his father's mother was sinning.
Quote from: Zeek on February 04, 2009, 08:24:48 PM
Zeek, do you see that it is not a time thing here? I am being created and I am a finished creation. Can you understand this? It is hard for me to understand but I kind of see the truth of it.
cp
hi cp, i appreciate your responses to me, and totally respect where you are at and your humble reliance on our savior.
when u say this "is not a time" issue;
do u think that is what John meant when he was writing to his fellow friends at that time; ie:
"hey guys, the darkness is past, and light now shineth; but not really; it appears that way, and actually is, but not really. I don't mean "past" in the sense of time, but actually I kind of do; actually what i really mean is I'm calling something as done, even though it really isnt'; after all that's what God does; he said it's finsished; but he really didn't mean it, at least in the realm of time".
do you see something as being different now (2000 years later) that allows you to "spiritualize" all scripture? or do you think that's what the first century christians were doing also.
ie: in I John, John talks about antichrists coming into the world, that he called a "they". Do you think those he wrote the letter to were supposed to really go, "oh he's talking about the inner me, the antichrist within me"??
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because
the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because
ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because
ye have known the Father. 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and
ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 2:18 Little children,
it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
antichrist shall come, even
now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that
denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
sincerly asking.[/b]
[/quote][/b]
Me responding......
Man Zeek, you make me think! This is good. I get into a pattern in my thinking and it's good questions like yours that get me out of a rut.
First of all let me say that I am seeing Scripture as written in God's language which is the spirit. I do spiritualize Scripture but don't overlook all my other writings about how I know we live in what we call a physical realm and I do believe that Scripture describes actual physical life happenings. Science does not disprove the Bible, it enforces it. In Job Scripture talks about the earth hangs on nothing and way back when people believed the earth actually was suspended from some kind of string. The Bible teaches that the life is in the blood and people like Gearge Washington died from too much blood letting which was common practice in the old days. The Bible is a very factual Book when it comes to the physical but to me that is only it's secondary use. It's primary use is to get us to see God and His Home and our real home.
John, I believe, fully understood what he was saying and writing. He used the physical circumstances of his generation to teach spiritual truths. God clothes His deeper truth in the physical IMO. Like a treasure hid in a field. This does not make the Bible less accurate in the physical realm. The real treasure for me is not that Jesus had Gucci sandles but that His sandles represented something.
I can't do what some do. I can't say this is literal physically and this is literal spiritual. I can't do that. I can't pick and choose like that. I mean I could but I could never really trust my findings. It is like Jesus Himself, all spiritual and all physical. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. A mystery of sorts.
Keep asking Brother.
cp
the boy who had his father's mother is sinning.
yep..sin still present...
...but jesus Christ will and does appear again...APART FROM SIN
Isaaih 62; Zion's New Name....
You will be called 'searched for" and your land 'married'
as a young man marries a maiden, so WILL YOUR SONS
MARRY YOU
what missed the mark[or was error or sin] in fallen flesh
APPEARS PERFECT AND BLAMELESS AND APART FROM SIN
IN THE SPIRITUAL!
Sheila
Zeek, you ask......
in I John, John talks about antichrists coming into the world, that he called a "they". Do you think those he wrote the letter to were supposed to really go, "oh he's talking about the inner me, the antichrist within me"??
John looked at the physical world around him and saw much that is adversarial to God and it doesn't take a huge leap to see how much is adversarial to God within people.
In other words Zeek I see God is communicating to us on various levels. God says one thing but it will mean different things depending on where you are meeting Him. Pluck out your eye can mean to physically take your eye out or it can mean stop doing something. Both can be applied in a true way for benfit to a person but overall I see Scripture as always speaking of spiritual truths while only sometimes speaking of physical realities.
Make sense?
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 09:06:12 PM
Zeek, you ask......
in I John, John talks about antichrists coming into the world, that he called a "they". Do you think those he wrote the letter to were supposed to really go, "oh he's talking about the inner me, the antichrist within me"??
John looked at the physical world around him and saw much that is adversarial to God and it doesn't take a huge leap to see how much is adversarial to God within people.
In other words Zeek I see God is communicating to us on various levels. God says one thing but it will mean different things depending on where you are meeting Him. Pluck out your eye can mean to physically take your eye out or it can mean stop doing something. Both can be applied in a true way for benfit to a person but overall I see Scripture as always speaking of spiritual truths while only sometimes speaking of physical realities.
Make sense?
cp
:director: <----------Trumpet
Ok everyone--Stop sinning NOW. Just stop. We have no more time for sin. No more flesh excuses.
Just STOP!
thank you...
Tony . . . your question causes me to ask a question I've asked before . . .to "who" is the book written to . . .and "What was the maturity level" of those to whom it was written to?
It was written to infant believers of an infant church. Paul was the father as he was the one that birthed them into the kingdom of Christ. And as such, the things being quoted now are intended to be followed literally, only by those to whom it was written to.
For me, there is a spiritual progression from warring to resting. It's a maturing process. When I was younger . . .I'd rather fight you than reason with you. Now that I'm older, I find there are so many more benefits to reasoning with one who's wanting to fight, rather than giving in and fighting back. I'd like to think that the reason for this change of approach has much to do with maturity.
I beleive God wants a bride that not only can reproduce, but can take responsiblity as a parent, to become a father to that which she's reproducing. Teenagers can have babies . . . but are they mature enough to be parents? So it's not just about being reproductive . . . Paul was being a Father to "his" kids.
When we try to apply it the same way . .it won't work because those we're applying it to, 99.9% of the time, are not our kids . .they're our brothers and sisters. When Paul is referring to the sin in others . . .he's talking spiritual baby talk . . . we all focus on sin when we're young in our walk . .but as we enter into the maturity of rest . . . Scriptures like what we've been discussing here where we can not sin . . .those types of passages draw us out now because we're maturing enough to be able to see that sin isn't the focus . . .Christ is.
I believe this is also why Jesus told Peter to put his sword away . . . it does us no good to use the word of God . .the sword of the spirit . . . to cut the ears off of each other as we think we must defend the ministry of Christ. That was never the intention for the word of God to be used . . .the weapons must be turned into plowshares . . .it's not a book of weaponry, it's a book of seeds.
Taf plants, Cardinal waters . . .and when awareness of truth manifests . .it is God who gets the increase.
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
QuoteIt was written to infant believers of an infant church.
Are you kidding me? Those people towered over us. Their shadows healed people. They died for their faith.
And, then, very quickly, the antichrist came into the world and snatched the seed, reducing everyone back to baying sheep again.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
QuoteIt was written to infant believers of an infant church.
Are you kidding me? Those people towered over us. Their shadows healed people. They died for their faith.
And, then, very quickly, the antichrist came into the world and snatched the seed, reducing everyone back to baying sheep again.
No...Not one bit.
Tis the moving for many from one Generaton to another..from a Child under law to One Under Grace and Truth...
Can you imagine , centuries of The tradition of thier fathers , coming to a NEW understanding of the shadow they lived in?
The woman( judaism) who through TRAVAIL, a *SON IS BORN*such were many babes in Christ, therefore infants.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
yes sirry......those who continued to SIT in Moses SEAT, even when their was a New testator in their midst.
men stealers dude..thieves....Liars..adulterers...murderes .who will have their PART in the LAKE.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: chuckt on February 04, 2009, 07:12:44 PM
QuoteI agree that Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about. Even Jesus said he, being a teacher should know these things. The actual literal application of what Jesus was talking about was Israel, as a nation, being begotten anew in a day.
hello T.
i understand this interpretation but why did Jesus say:
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
why didnt he just say ""nation""
thanks
chuckt
Good question!
The Greek does not have
"a man". It has: EAN--MH--TIC "if ever--no--any" and should be
"Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you,
If ever any should not be begotten of water and of spirit, can not be entering into the kingdom of God."
In John 3:7 Jesus said:
You (singular) should not be marveling that I said to you (singular), 'You (plural) must be begotten anew.'"
Nicodemus should have known this verse:
Isa 66:8 Who has heard a thing as this? And who has seen things as these? Shall a land be in travail in one day only? Should
a nation be born at one time? When she travails, already Zion gives birth to her sons."
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
QuoteIt was written to infant believers of an infant church.
Are you kidding me? Those people towered over us. Their shadows healed people. They died for their faith.
And, then, very quickly, the antichrist came into the world and snatched the seed, reducing everyone back to baying sheep again.
Molly . . .the ones you're referring to are the ones that did the writing and fathering . . .they were the church within the church . .so to speak. Paul was not writing to Peter . .Paul was writing to Corinth, Ephesus, Coloss, Phillipi . . .he was writing to churches and people that he either single handedly, or assisted greatly in the birthing of them into Christ.
A good example of this comes in two-fold for me. Back in 1906 when Azusa first took off . .oh, by the way . . the guy that sparked that revival was a dismembered pastor from a Methodist church. He preached on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts . .even though he himself was never baptized . . . talk about moving in faith.
Anyway, when the revival broke out . .people were being spirit filled left and right and things were just flippin' nuts. In the middle of all of this, they saw in Scripture where we're to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth . . . so they decided to send out missionaries. But who was to go where? Here's what they did . . . there were people who spoke foreign languages when they were filled . . .others would recognize that language . .and because someone spoke french when they spoke in tongues, they surmized that God was calling that person to go to France . . .so off they went.
But it was a terrible outcome. The majority of those sent died of disease within months. The purpose of the gifts is to give us power to "be" his witnesses. But in their infancy, they took that to mean those who "do" will have power . . . The baptism of spirit is to equip you all right . . but not to be a missionary to a foreign land, but to "be" his light where he lit you. Some are sent, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, they didn't let themselves mature into what was happening enough to discern between sound and noise. And they listened to the noise of reason rather than the sound of the Spirit's voice.
The other piece to this is what I experienced first hand with the Brownsville Revival that took place in Florida a while back . . .it's glory days were back in 98 . .the late 90's early 00's. It was the same denomination as our church was and our head pastor made it an order for the other 9 pastors on staff to go down and get emersed in what they had, and bring it back. And they did. And we experienced a bit of the fresh wind ourselves . .but then we started to see subtle changes here and there . . .our leadership decided what was good for Florida, is good for Iowa . . .so we organized our own worship team . . .just like they did .. . same number of people . . .we had our ushers wear matching jackets, just like they did . . . we sang their songs, we held extra services, we had prayer teams at the end . . .we even recorded their services and bought their cd's . . .they even came up a couple of times to our city . . we followed them, we mirrored them . . .and when they died out . . .we died out. I actually left before things went completely south on them, but it happened nonetheless.
It was a great thing, but it was a tragedy as well. I look back now and see that what was good for Brownsville, may not have necessarily been good for Cedar Rapids. God's relationship with us/me is a personal one. Each city and church has a different personality, different needs in the community, different populations . .on and on . . .and for us to try to copycat what God is doing somewhere else, isn't really getting into the fulness of what God has for "us/me".
It's just like now, my relationship with Christ is not a corporate one, but a personal one. So . . .when I try to take a letter that was literally intended for a different city, a different people, a different culture in a different time . . and literally try to conform to it today . .is it any wonder that so many see so many different ways to apply it?
Is there a problem now eating food that has been offered up to idols? when was the last time you saw someone stoned to death? . .For anything? What city now a days, literally worships Isis? Or has Asherah poles? (sp?) The Word of God is a LIVING, BREATHING form of life . . .to take it literal only binds what is meant to be free.
What is written, was intended for infants. It's the elementary level of boundless life and light. To get into catfights over word definitions is to live life at the door without ever passing through. The Bible is a great source of power and strength when order is in proper alignment "within" us. If the order is out of alignment, then the word used to plant and build, becomes a weapon of war and a club of destruction. What is the order? In it's virgin state, it was Spirit then soul, then body.
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
yes sirry......those who continued to SIT in Moses SEAT, even when their was a New testator in their midst.
men stealers dude..thieves....Liars..adulterers...murderes .who will have their PART in the LAKE.... :icon_flower:
First of all, Moses was a servant in the house, not the creator of the house and not the Son.
Some might even call him an angel--meant to minister to those who would receive salvation.
Secondly, they were sitting in Moses seat but they were not even good servants, which is why Jesus said--do as they say, not as they do.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
yes sirry......those who continued to SIT in Moses SEAT, even when their was a New testator in their midst.
men stealers dude..thieves....Liars..adulterers...murderes .who will have their PART in the LAKE.... :icon_flower:
First of all, Moses was a servant in the house, not the creator of the house and not the Son.
Some might even call him an angel--meant to minister to those who would receive salvation.
Secondly, they were sitting in Moses seat but they were not even good servants, which is why Jesus said--so as they say, not as they do.
AND? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 10:49:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
yes sirry......those who continued to SIT in Moses SEAT, even when their was a New testator in their midst.
men stealers dude..thieves....Liars..adulterers...murderes .who will have their PART in the LAKE.... :icon_flower:
First of all, Moses was a servant in the house, not the creator of the house and not the Son.
Some might even call him an angel--meant to minister to those who would receive salvation.
Secondly, they were sitting in Moses seat but they were not even good servants, which is why Jesus said--do as they say, not as they do.
AND? :icon_flower:
and, given all that, they were still setting themselves up to take the place of Christ. --false Christ--
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 10:50:53 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 10:49:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
The title "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." Rather, the Greek word is composed of "anti" and "christos" and literally means "instead"-"anointed." He is not an opponent of Christ but rather a "false christ."
wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
yes sirry......those who continued to SIT in Moses SEAT, even when their was a New testator in their midst.
men stealers dude..thieves....Liars..adulterers...murderes .who will have their PART in the LAKE.... :icon_flower:
First of all, Moses was a servant in the house, not the creator of the house and not the Son.
Some might even call him an angel--meant to minister to those who would receive salvation.
Secondly, they were sitting in Moses seat but they were not even good servants, which is why Jesus said--so as they say, not as they do.
AND? :icon_flower:
and, given all that, they were still setting themselves up to take the place of Christ. --false Christ--
:thumbsup:
antichrists are false Christs, i.e. false messiahs.
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
antichrists are false Christs, i.e. false messiahs.
But Tony . . . the point is . . .there is yet another dimension to take it to and that is coming to the realization that my carnal mind . . .my ego is that which projects this false image of Christ IN ME. Against God . . .or false Christ . .either way, that's irrelevant because the point is that it's the carnal nature within me that's the abomination of desolation . . . I am a temple of the holy spirit . . .and if I'm walking according to my mind and not my spirit . .then it is MY MIND that is sitting on the throne in this temple declaring itself as God.
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
antichrists are false Christs, i.e. false messiahs.
Now which one of em is going to sit in the temple T..seems to me the Context of scripture speaks of the Old( Judaism) and the New, Those In Christ....both bearing Testimony of HIM, one the Shadow( as in the law) and the Realty, that is the TRUTH.
many ANTI-christs will come in my name....weird how he always contended those scribes, pharisees and saducees...and not muslims, hindus etc...
Im just hanging a Guess out there..that these anti Christs were these who sat IN HIS rightful seat..PROCLAIMING themselves God....
But again if we look to the Inner man we se it relates Singular as well as cooperate...., as noted earlier in this thread
:icon_flower:..Tis another Dimension bro :icon_flower: both are true
Cant have DARKNESS wheres theres LIGHT....its IMPOSSIBLE...Light iluminates such darkness, Just as HE WHO IS THE LIGHTiluminated the Darkness of those who desired HIS seat.....
:icon_flower:
Hi Taffy!
I don't think those who opposed Christ claimed to be God. They tried to stone Christ for, according to them, claiming to be God. If they claimed to be God they would be stoned, and I don't mean by that wacky tobaccy either.
Again, antichrist is not someone who is against Christ but one who comes INSTEAD OF CHRIST. Big difference bro.
P.S. you enjoying the snow over there?
We're almost there Brothers and Sisters. Our real home is just around the corner. Think about it. Everyone here on this thread and all our kids will be gone from this phase of existence in a measly 100 years. OK, maybe some kids will live to be over 100 but you get the drift.
What are we going to talk about there do you think? God is a Master at giving us stuff to talk about isn't He. People have been discussing Scripture since the first i was dotted and the first t was crossed. Sometimes I think God and the angels are laughing their heads off at us. Not so much at our searching of heavenly things out but in our having such a hard time with each other doing it. It's good to see us all get along most of the time though.
Look at all the forums out there and all the words. We are an incredibly amazing people. We are very rigid and flexible and funny and serious and frutrated and docile and single minded and multi faceted minded. We are certainly a hodge podge of every emotion and human ability. Some are gullible some won't believe even if the proof is right in front of them. What is proof anyway? What is true for one of us is total falsehood for another.
Every word read is sifted through an almost infinite array of experience of the person reading it. God knew this would be the case yet He lets it be. People do find golden nuggets out of all the mayhem so it all seems worth it but perspective is my game right now.
100 years tops for 99% of us. 50 years for probably most of us. This is a most sobering truth yet it's one I cling to to keep me sane. I fear death yet I look so forward to it. Like at the top of the first big dip on a roller coaster, thrilling yet scary.
This thread is good and I enjoy it and expect to enjoy it more but it seems it is sowing as much frustration as it is rewards which is a good similarity to life itself. We are people. Some of us will change, some of us need to stay as much the same as we can. No matter, no one can stop the change that comes from the Father which is the only change that matters.
I am just thinking out loud, now back to trying to figure out who or what the anti christ is and for that matter who or what the Christ of God is!
You are all great people, keep up the good work as if you need me to encourage you!
cp
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Hi Taffy!
I don't think those who opposed Christ claimed to be God. They tried to stone Christ for, according to them, claiming to be God. If they claimed to be God they would be stoned, and I don't mean by that wacky tobaccy either.
Again, antichrist is not someone who is against Christ but one who comes INSTEAD OF CHRIST. Big difference bro.
P.S. you enjoying the snow over there?
well, yes they are taking the place of God since they are telling God to his face that he's wrong and deserves to die. They are lording it over Christ.
We see the same thing happening today--religious leader/leaders who say they alone have the right to forgive sin, to replace God's laws, to tell people what is right and wrong, to burn heretics, to stand between people and the Father....
The face of the antichrist has not changed since the beginning--he's a liar and murderer of God's people...
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. --Mat 23
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Hi Taffy!
I don't think those who opposed Christ claimed to be God. They tried to stone Christ for, according to them, claiming to be God. If they claimed to be God they would be stoned, and I don't mean by that wacky tobaccy either.
Again, antichrist is not someone who is against Christ but one who comes INSTEAD OF CHRIST. Big difference bro.
P.S. you enjoying the snow over there?
ya Think Bro :icon_flower:
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Either or If one claims to be the Annoited ( instead of) surely they be agin HIM..Kinda Like saying, I lie against HE who is , because I claim to be HIM :sigh:
As for snow Bro..Nah..im not a winter guy...love the spring and New growth...always makes me feel fresh bud... :icon_flower:
hpe your weathers better than here :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 10:31:44 PM
It was a great thing, but it was a tragedy as well. I look back now and see that what was good for Brownsville, may not have necessarily been good for Cedar Rapids.
:cloud9: Nathan, what happened (and we've all done it, even on a smaller more personal scale) is here.....
Jer 2:20 - For of old time I have broken thy yoke (outer court), and burst thy bands (inner court); and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
There are other scriptures that speak of inflaming themselves under every green tree. Green tree = that which we perceive life in. Playing the harlot speaks of fornication.
When God "plants" something by His Spirit and we see the life (green) of it in that thing, the soul immediately tries to mimic what it saw, and reproduce it, instead of letting the Spirit bring forth new life, just like Abraham did with Ishmael.
That's why genuine moves of God's Spirit don't tend to last very long, because this nature in us thinks, "Well, if it worked this way here it'll work this way again," when in fact, God wants to do a new thing, and the cloud has already moved on. And He will move just to see if we'll move with Him. Blessings.....
Quote from: CardinalWhen God "plants" something by His Spirit and we see the life (green) of it in that thing, the soul immediately tries to mimic what it saw, and reproduce it, instead of letting the Spirit bring forth new life, just like Abraham did with Ishmael.
So how do we avoid this? By staying in the present? If his memorial is I AM THAT I AM, maybe he wants us in the present...
:cloud9: I AM that I AM would have better translated I AM that which I will be (at any given moment in time), meaning the Alpha and the Omega, ie. what He is in the eternal NOW. So whatever He leads us to do by His Spirit, as we walk in that, we are walking with Him the same way Adam did in the cool/breath of the day, and because there is no time in His Spirit, it is always NOW. That's why it says as many as are led by His Spirit, are the sons of God. He has been teaching us in "installments", how to walk with Him again. Blessings...
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 11:05:47 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
antichrists are false Christs, i.e. false messiahs.
But Tony . . . the point is . . .there is yet another dimension to take it to and that is coming to the realization that my carnal mind . . .my ego is that which projects this false image of Christ IN ME. Against God . . .or false Christ . .either way, that's irrelevant because the point is that it's the carnal nature within me that's the abomination of desolation . . . I am a temple of the holy spirit . . .and if I'm walking according to my mind and not my spirit . .then it is MY MIND that is sitting on the throne in this temple declaring itself as God.
Nathan, that's not enough. You are just not looking at this through spiritual eyes. The spiritual one will see that the antichrist or man of lawlessness also is in "all power and false miracles and shows that he is God.
It is not enough just to say you have a carnal nature.
1Co 14:37
If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or
spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord."
Nathan, if you are spiritual you will believe what Paul said.
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Hi Taffy!
I don't think those who opposed Christ claimed to be God. They tried to stone Christ for, according to them, claiming to be God. If they claimed to be God they would be stoned, and I don't mean by that wacky tobaccy either.
Again, antichrist is not someone who is against Christ but one who comes INSTEAD OF CHRIST. Big difference bro.
P.S. you enjoying the snow over there?
ya Think Bro :icon_flower:
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Either or If one claims to be the Annoited ( instead of) surely they be agin HIM..Kinda Like saying, I lie against HE who is , because I claim to be HIM :sigh:
As for snow Bro..Nah..im not a winter guy...love the spring and New growth...always makes me feel fresh bud... :icon_flower:
hpe your weathers better than here :icon_flower:
England got dumpted on with lots of snow. You didn't get any? It wasn't spiritual snow, you know. But if it was I'm sure you'd have seen it. :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:49:09 AM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 11:54:28 PM
Hi Taffy!
I don't think those who opposed Christ claimed to be God. They tried to stone Christ for, according to them, claiming to be God. If they claimed to be God they would be stoned, and I don't mean by that wacky tobaccy either.
Again, antichrist is not someone who is against Christ but one who comes INSTEAD OF CHRIST. Big difference bro.
P.S. you enjoying the snow over there?
ya Think Bro :icon_flower:
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Either or ,If one claims to be the Annoited ( instead of) surely they be agin HIM..Kinda Like saying, I lie against HE who is , because I claim to be HIM :sigh:
As for snow Bro..Nah..im not a winter guy...love the spring and New growth...always makes me feel fresh bud... :icon_flower:
hpe your weathers better than here :icon_flower:
England got dumpted on with lots of snow. You didn't get any? It wasn't spiritual snow, you know. But if it was I'm sure you'd have seen it. :laughing7:
And for sure T..more dumping on the way too.. :sigh:.
Nothing quite the Spiritual Purity of SNOW bud... :cloud9:.......
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:45:06 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 11:05:47 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
antichrists are false Christs, i.e. false messiahs.
But Tony . . . the point is . . .there is yet another dimension to take it to and that is coming to the realization that my carnal mind . . .my ego is that which projects this false image of Christ IN ME. Against God . . .or false Christ . .either way, that's irrelevant because the point is that it's the carnal nature within me that's the abomination of desolation . . . I am a temple of the holy spirit . . .and if I'm walking according to my mind and not my spirit . .then it is MY MIND that is sitting on the throne in this temple declaring itself as God.
Nathan, that's not enough. You are just not looking at this through spiritual eyes. The spiritual one will see that the antichrist or man of lawlessness also is in "all power and false miracles and shows that he is God.
It is not enough just to say you have a carnal nature.
1Co 14:37 If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord."
Nathan, if you are spiritual you will believe what Paul said.
Tony, you sure are single minded, much like me. Being the crux of this whole issue with you is......
The spiritual one will see that the antichrist or man of lawlessness also is in "all power and false miracles and shows that he is God.could you please explain what this means to you?
cp
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
:cloud9: I AM that I AM would have better translated I AM that which I will be (at any given moment in time), meaning the Alpha and the Omega, ie. what He is in the eternal NOW. So whatever He leads us to do by His Spirit, as we walk in that, we are walking with Him the same way Adam did in the cool/breath of the day, and because there is no time in His Spirit, it is always NOW. That's why it says as many as are led by His Spirit, are the sons of God. He has been teaching us in "installments", how to walk with Him again. Blessings...
:happyclap:
Ahyh "I Will Be" Or "I WILL BE, WHAT I WILL BE"
I BECOME, WHAT I BECOME As, "I AM, THAT I AM"
Can't rewind the film, but we can move forward in time –
HIS!In God we live, move, and exist – becoming what we become.
Always ... :boyheart:
peacemaker
All power and false miracles, sort of sounds like Benny Hinn, for example. And multiple other Ministries.
Not interested in the "Join Our Audience" group :bowing: whose devotion is given to a person – other than Christ!
peacemaker
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 03:09:13 AM
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Please explain more.
The power of Satan would hold dominion on the earth. What in the world does this mean?
For that matter what does the god of this eon mean. Satan isn't the god of any other eon? What makes him the god of this eon and not the others?
When you say he will come with all power, really, what does that mean? Doesn't only God have all power? Are you putting Satan over God for this eon at least?
Tony, I am serious. I want to know your side. This is very important what you are preaching as truth. You don't need to give me long detailed answers or even quote tons of Scripture. Explain to me like you would to the average person.
Thanks in advance Bro.
cp
Tony, you wrote....
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
Tony, just a couple more questions if I may.
Could you briefly explain who Christ's brethren are that you are referring to here?
And could you give me a sentence or two on what you mean by amalgamating dominions to his control?
I do know something about the 7 year thing. The 3 1/2 and 3 1/2. Daniel talks of this a bit.
Remember you can keep your answers short and I will let you know if I need more. I'm just afraid of wasting your time and getting lost in your answers so I want to be considerate of you and careful so I understand what you are saying.
cp
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 03:31:33 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
:cloud9: I AM that I AM would have better translated I AM that which I will be (at any given moment in time), meaning the Alpha and the Omega, ie. what He is in the eternal NOW. So whatever He leads us to do by His Spirit, as we walk in that, we are walking with Him the same way Adam did in the cool/breath of the day, and because there is no time in His Spirit, it is always NOW. That's why it says as many as are led by His Spirit, are the sons of God. He has been teaching us in "installments", how to walk with Him again. Blessings...
:happyclap:
Ahyh "I Will Be" Or "I WILL BE, WHAT I WILL BE"
I BECOME, WHAT I BECOME As, "I AM, THAT I AM"
Can't rewind the film, but we can move forward in time – HIS!
In God we live, move, and exist – becoming what we become.
Always ... :boyheart: peacemaker [\quote]
:cloud9: AMEN.....and right back at ya.... :girlheart: :happygrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 05:35:40 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 03:31:33 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
:cloud9: I AM that I AM would have better translated I AM that which I will be (at any given moment in time), meaning the Alpha and the Omega, ie. what He is in the eternal NOW. So whatever He leads us to do by His Spirit, as we walk in that, we are walking with Him the same way Adam did in the cool/breath of the day, and because there is no time in His Spirit, it is always NOW. That's why it says as many as are led by His Spirit, are the sons of God. He has been teaching us in "installments", how to walk with Him again. Blessings...
:happyclap:
Ahyh "I Will Be" Or "I WILL BE, WHAT I WILL BE"
I BECOME, WHAT I BECOME As, "I AM, THAT I AM"
Can't rewind the film, but we can move forward in time – HIS!
In God we live, move, and exist – becoming what we become.
Always ... :boyheart: peacemaker
Quote
:cloud9: AMEN.....and right back at ya.... :girlheart: :happygrin:
LOVE THOSE SMILEYS! :bgdance: peacemaker
When he comes he will come with all power and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
It appears from the mindset of some, that there is a deep psychological need to blame sin, and the sin of others - such as that of Adam and Eve, on something outside of themselves. Thus, the thought of Satan; "the" Anti-Christ to come, is one of the most popular themes throughout the churches, and worldly religions. Yet, it is that which comes from within the heart, and mind of men – "that defiles."
"Raising the exterior works, in order to protect their interior."
Let us Not continue to justify all manner of war and persecution with the demons of man!
peacemaker
(The prince of this world had it's end in 70 A.D.)
Christ's ministry, per se, was 3 1/2 years? Cutting it short, wouldn't you say?
1 Jn 3:9-10 (AV)...
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I've understood this for now to mean that my spirit is born of God. It cannot sin. Paul says, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rm 7:20) This is an aspect of knowing we are of God, because of being on another side in the spiritual war. Even if we lose a battle we are on the side of Him Who is manifested, "...that we may be getting the place of a son." (1 Jn 4:5) We are no longer in lawlessness but doing right. Christ in us is the hope of glory and by us in Christ is the glory manifested. "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." (1 Jn 4:13)
When you think of a circle it is ideal. In the physical there are no perfect circles. Yet, because of this concept of a circle you can recognize and create circles within a wide range deviations from the perfect circle in your mind. It is similar with righteousness. "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" is said in the context of love. But consider that there are no perfect circles in the world God has made. That is a testimony to the nature of His perfection. It is first inward, against all opposition. Now, by raising Christ from the dead He has brought forth into the world a perfect circle.
Because of the Spirit of God in union with me, sharing the same body, I have been regenerated spiritually. Working together with the Holy Spirit I'm conforming and developing my soul (thought, emotion, and will) and enslaving my body to righteousness expecting the change of my body to no more be dying so the totality of "born of God" would be brought about by having become born of resurrection. Then I will have no working of sin in my members. I will be able to draw perfect circles.
1 Jn 2:5-6...
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Everything that Jesus is and does is in us because He is in us. "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." (Ga 4:6) Our availability to Him is how mature we are. The "call out" of the world and the flesh to which the Eclessia responds is the express image Word toward God Who is God. (cp., Jn 1:1) The Word now, "...speaks to us in Sonship." (Heb 1:2) There is no article in Greek, "the Son," which would indicate specifically the historic Jesus. God is speaking in the category of Sonship. This that is Son-wise, of which are we, it is, "...through Whom He makes the eons." We are determining the nature of this age in which we are appearing. As a part of this Son realm we are "...the radiance of His glory, the exact representation of His being." (Kistemaker) The extent to which we manifest Jesus' ministry is how much of the Word, Who is Christ, we can hear. After a little while we should all be teachers. (cf., Hb 5:12) This, the other side of the shepherd coin, through practice is enlarged and becomes evangelism. As that measure deepens in the mysteries we become prophetic. If I can truly say I am called to be a prophet, and have an anointing for more than a prophet, that is how much of the the Image to which I have attained. Yet beyond the apostle is victory over death. This is all in each of us in potential. It is in the Spirit of God's Son He has sent forth into our hearts (Ga 4:6)
This should be central to how we meet, coming into the fullness of the Image and Glory of God, each and everyone of us who have His Spirit. We are not to continue being an audience for the convenience of one man's ministry. "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ep 4:15-16) This brings about a corporate "perfect man" as we individually help one another develop "...unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (Ep 4:13)
Quote from: reFORMer on February 05, 2009, 07:39:42 AM
The extent to which we manifest Jesus' ministry is how much of the Word, Who is Christ, we can hear. After a little while we should all be teachers. (cf., Hb 5:12) This, the other side of the shepherd coin, through practice is enlarged and becomes evangelism. As that measure deepens in the mysteries we become prophetic. If I can truly say I am called to be a prophet, and have an anointing for more than a prophet, that is how much of the the Image to which I have attained. Yet beyond the apostle is victory over death. This is all in each of us in potential. It is in the Spirit of God's Son He has sent forth into our hearts (Ga 4:6)
This should be central to how we meet, coming into the fullness of the Image and Glory of God, each and everyone of us who have His Spirit. We are not to continue being an audience for the convenience of one man's ministry. "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ep 4:15-16) This brings about a corporate "perfect man" as we individually help one another develop "...unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (Ep 4:13)
:cloud9: Amen, yes it is. Of His same fullness have we all received. It's all there, to be used as He sees fit, but the body was not allowed to mature into the Head. Blessings....
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 07:35:24 AM
When he comes he will come with all power and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
It appears from the mindset of some, that there is a deep psychological need to blame sin, and the sin of others - such as that of Adam and Eve, on something outside of themselves. Thus, the thought of Satan; "the" Anti-Christ to come, is one of the most popular themes throughout the churches, and worldly religions. Yet, it is that which comes from within the heart, and mind of men – "that defiles."
"Raising the exterior works, in order to protect their interior."
Let us Not continue to justify all manner of war and persecution with the demons of man!
peacemaker
(The prince of this world had it's end in 70 A.D.)
Christ's ministry, per se, was 3 1/2 years? Cutting it short, wouldn't you say?
4In whom the god of this world [aion] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.--2 Cor 4:4
So are we no longer in the age where the god of this age is blinding the minds of men? If we are still in that age, men are still blinded.
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.Are there still such deceivers going out into the world? Is there one great deceiver who is still deceiving the whole world?
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him..[which deceiveth the whole]
"world"G3625
οἰκουμένη
oikoumenēoy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the)
globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.
Are we still dealing with the roman empire? Or are we past this age of being deceived by satan?
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 04:23:12 AM
All power and false miracles, sort of sounds like Benny Hinn, for example. And multiple other Ministries.
Not interested in the "Join Our Audience" group :bowing: whose devotion is given to a person – other than Christ!
peacemaker
Benny Hinn cannot call fire down from heaven onto the earth as antichrist will. Nor does he have ALL POWER and he must be endued with all power from Satan.
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:37:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 03:09:13 AM
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Please explain more.
The power of Satan would hold dominion on the earth. What in the world does this mean?
For that matter what does the god of this eon mean. Satan isn't the god of any other eon? What makes him the god of this eon and not the others?
When you say he will come with all power, really, what does that mean? Doesn't only God have all power? Are you putting Satan over God for this eon at least?
Tony, I am serious. I want to know your side. This is very important what you are preaching as truth. You don't need to give me long detailed answers or even quote tons of Scripture. Explain to me like you would to the average person.
Thanks in advance Bro.
cp
Dear cp, please read Revelation 13 as to the antichrist or man of lawlessness of Thessalonians and Daniel and Matthew 24.
god of this eon. This eon is the wicked eon (Gal.4:1). Satan is the god of this eon. This eon is especially wicked in that it was the eon in which Christ was crucified. He won't be the god of the next eon for he will be incarcerated in the abyss.
Coming with all power. Satan will give him all the power he needs for world domination. Read Rev.13.
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 07:35:24 AM
When he comes he will come with all power and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
It appears from the mindset of some, that there is a deep psychological need to blame sin, and the sin of others - such as that of Adam and Eve, on something outside of themselves. Thus, the thought of Satan; "the" Anti-Christ to come, is one of the most popular themes throughout the churches, and worldly religions. Yet, it is that which comes from within the heart, and mind of men – "that defiles."
"Raising the exterior works, in order to protect their interior."
Let us Not continue to justify all manner of war and persecution with the demons of man!
peacemaker
(The prince of this world had it's end in 70 A.D.)
Christ's ministry, per se, was 3 1/2 years? Cutting it short, wouldn't you say?
:icon_flower:
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a
mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me:
but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. john 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have
no power [at all] against me,
except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:37:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 03:09:13 AM
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Please explain more.
The power of Satan would hold dominion on the earth. What in the world does this mean?
For that matter what does the god of this eon mean. Satan isn't the god of any other eon? What makes him the god of this eon and not the others?
When you say he will come with all power, really, what does that mean? Doesn't only God have all power? Are you putting Satan over God for this eon at least?
Tony, I am serious. I want to know your side. This is very important what you are preaching as truth. You don't need to give me long detailed answers or even quote tons of Scripture. Explain to me like you would to the average person.
Thanks in advance Bro.
cp
Dear cp, please read Revelation 13 as to the antichrist or man of lawlessness of Thessalonians and Daniel and Matthew 24.
god of this eon. This eon is the wicked eon (Gal.4:1). Satan is the god of this eon. This eon is especially wicked in that it was the eon in which Christ was crucified. He won't be the god of the next eon for he will be incarcerated in the abyss.
Coming with all power. Satan will give him all the power he needs for world domination. Read Rev.13.
Tony, is that the extent of your explanation?
Do you think things will work out like we see in the end time shows? You know, like Omega Code and Omega Code 2. If you haven't seen these you surely must have watched some end time shows. You know, where a seemingly really good guy takes over the world and everything is really nice and then after 3 1/2 years he goes bonkers and starts to kill Christians and then Jesus comes and wipes him out and the earth turns green and lush again. Is this what God's message is to you in Revelation and Daniel and Matthew concerning the end times and anti christ?
Do you see in Matthew that God's message is that Jesus will gather up whole nations and condemn or reward whole nations depending on if they gave Him water or visited Him in prison or visited Him when He was sick? If so what does this mean to you. In a nation might there not be some good people?
How does a moon turn to blood? Is this literal to you?
Do we just wait for the stars to fall and the sun to darken. Was Jesus just telling us of some physical things that will happen in some future time when you and I will probably be in the grave anyway.
In all these scenarios, if taken as you seem to want me to take them, I see them as only affecting those who are alive when they happen. You know, like the 7 year thing. Only those who are alive in that generation will have to worry won't they? When the stars are falling and the moon turning to blood, won't it be only those who are alive on that particular day that will be affected? Only they will have to run to the mountains for safety. To I and every other person ever born these things really don't matter do they?cp
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 03:32:22 PM
How does a moon turn to blood? Is this literal to you?
(http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/lunecl_steere_big.gif)
Lunar eclipse
(http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/tse1999_kobusch.jpg)
Solar eclipse
"And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29.
The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
http://www.patmospapers.com/ndex/stars.htm
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:37:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 03:09:13 AM
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Please explain more.
The power of Satan would hold dominion on the earth. What in the world does this mean?
For that matter what does the god of this eon mean. Satan isn't the god of any other eon? What makes him the god of this eon and not the others?
When you say he will come with all power, really, what does that mean? Doesn't only God have all power? Are you putting Satan over God for this eon at least?
Tony, I am serious. I want to know your side. This is very important what you are preaching as truth. You don't need to give me long detailed answers or even quote tons of Scripture. Explain to me like you would to the average person.
Thanks in advance Bro.
cp
Dear cp, please read Revelation 13 as to the antichrist or man of lawlessness of Thessalonians and Daniel and Matthew 24.
god of this eon. This eon is the wicked eon (Gal.4:1). Satan is the god of this eon. This eon is especially wicked in that it was the eon in which Christ was crucified. He won't be the god of the next eon for he will be incarcerated in the abyss.
Coming with all power. Satan will give him all the power he needs for world domination. Read Rev.13.
Before you read that . . .you may want to camp out on Revelation 1:1 first and let God do the revealing from there. It doesn't matter how strongly some are convinced these things are yet to take place literally, 2000 years after the fact, even though the time was at hand THEN . . .this book is a book of symbols. Does everyone know what that actually means? It means colors represent characteristics of Christ, they don't represent other colors. The symbol has nothing to do with itself in the literal sense, it stands for something else completely.
In the same way, times referred to . . .such as a thousand years, 42 months, 3 1/2 years . .even an age . .. they represent other things . . .so before you read Revelation 13 and try to cram it into a futuristic event . . .pay closer attention to the fact that they symbolize things other than what is written there on the page.
Consider this . . . Israel and Palestine has been at war with each other since their conception . . .never have they ever had peace, even though that's what they pray for every minute of every day . . . and yet . . . you beleive that the day will come when they will become friends? Or how about Afganistan and the US? We are not just Satan to them . . . I just heard this on the news radio yesterday . . . we are the Great Satan . . .
If you do a study on this book's history, you'll find that those people who believe opposite of what we do about the rapture . . about UR, about gifts of the spirit . . .hell . .the lake of fire . .on and on, these are the same people who also believe these things in Revelation are a futuristic event yet to happen as well. Their foundation is off on everything else, what makes us think that they then got this piece right?
I believe there are always going to be things in us that we are not aware of the fact that it was a doctrine of man that engrained it into us. But the key is . .to be willing to let God change our perceptions of what we believe to be true. The moment we put up our walls of defense to maintain our belief, is the moment we stop growing in the Lord.
Those that see this no longer as a future event . . . such as myself . . . are not walking with a closed mind, but an open one. That's what caused me to leave what I used to believe . . .which is, I to used to believe it was a futuristic event . . . and being open to the leading of the Spirit, I have come into a completely different understanding of these things.
It is clear that there are opposite points of view here, so, now what? Are we going to try to take it upon ourselves to be Holy Ghost jr. and convict those that are rejecting our message? It pretty much boils down to . . ."My" relationship with the Father has led me to believe that it's a spiritual picture that is predominant over a physical happening . .or yet to happen, happening. And "your" relationship with the Father has you seeing it as a futuristic event.
There is nothing, at this point in my relationship, that you will say on this matter, that is going to cause me to reverse what I see now, and bring me "back" to where I was on it. I've yet to come across anyone who can say the same only in reverse. Meaning, I've yet to come across anyone who has seen the spiritual truth the lies beneath and chose to go back to interpreting what lies on the surface.
Once the two positions are clearly drawn, any further arguments on the matter is just kicking against the goads. The conversations seem to become more destructive by nature than uplifting. I think there is much to be said about using the diversity of another to bring out the light and truth of a situation and let the readers accept and see what they can in the conversations. But to drag things out to the point to where some people are building calluses against others due to the fact that we're coming at each other from totally opposite ends of the spectrum, just doesn't seem to be a healthy way of growing in the Lord to me.
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:37:04 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 03:09:13 AM
Claypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
All power would be like the power of Satan and would hold dominion on the earth for he is the god of this eon.
When he comes he will come with all pwer and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
"signs and false miracles" are just what they are.
These things are not exhibited in Christian's flesh no matter how wild one's imagination might be. It is not spiritual to claim these things are in a Christian's flesh.
Please explain more.
The power of Satan would hold dominion on the earth. What in the world does this mean?
For that matter what does the god of this eon mean. Satan isn't the god of any other eon? What makes him the god of this eon and not the others?
When you say he will come with all power, really, what does that mean? Doesn't only God have all power? Are you putting Satan over God for this eon at least?
Tony, I am serious. I want to know your side. This is very important what you are preaching as truth. You don't need to give me long detailed answers or even quote tons of Scripture. Explain to me like you would to the average person.
Thanks in advance Bro.
cp
Dear cp, please read Revelation 13 as to the antichrist or man of lawlessness of Thessalonians and Daniel and Matthew 24.
god of this eon. This eon is the wicked eon (Gal.4:1). Satan is the god of this eon. This eon is especially wicked in that it was the eon in which Christ was crucified. He won't be the god of the next eon for he will be incarcerated in the abyss.
Coming with all power. Satan will give him all the power he needs for world domination. Read Rev.13.
QuoteTony, is that the extent of your explanation?
You did tell me to be brief, didn't you? :laughing7:
QuoteDo you think things will work out like we see in the end time shows? You know, like Omega Code and Omega Code 2. If you haven't seen these you surely must have watched some end time shows. You know, where a seemingly really good guy takes over the world and everything is really nice and then after 3 1/2 years he goes bonkers and starts to kill Christians and then Jesus comes and wipes him out and the earth turns green and lush again. Is this what God's message is to you in Revelation and Daniel and Matthew concerning the end times and anti christ?
I have not seen those end time shows.
I believe that this man of lawlessness will, by craft and lies, amalgamate the world kingdoms to be under his control. And for 3 1/2 years everying will go well for the Jews but at the end of that 3 1/2 years he will turn on the true Jewish believers and for 3 1/2 years will persecute them. This will not be the case for Christians of this era of grace. We will be taken out before he is revealed to begin with as Paul states in 2 Thessalonians.
Before Christ returns there will also be a world-wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall (Rev.16). So He is coming back to a world that has been wrecked.
QuoteDo you see in Matthew that God's message is that Jesus will gather up whole nations and condemn or reward whole nations depending on if they gave Him water or visited Him in prison or visited Him when He was sick? If so what does this mean to you. In a nation might there not be some good people?
We have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46. All the nations will be represented by a representative of their respective nation. If a nation maltreated Christ's Jewish brethren during their great tribulation, Christ will tell that representative that their nation is going away into eonian chastening. Of course there may be some good people living in that nation that mistreated Christ's brethren. I don't know if Christ will allow political asylum for such individuals who may have helped His brethren within that country which as a whole persecuted them.
Germany is a good example. As a country, Germany persecuted the Jews. yet at the same time some Germans helped some Jews. Yet Israel made Germany pay reparations which meant that even the good people who helped the Jews were being hurt by these reparations. But often the Jews would recognize these good people who helped them.
QuoteHow does a moon turn to blood? Is this literal to you?
How does the sun
turn into darkness? The sun will lose 1/3 of its brightness due, I believe, to a dust cloud which our solar system will enter into. This dust cloud will darken the sun and make the moon look like blood. They are figures of speech.
QuoteDo we just wait for the stars to fall and the sun to darken. Was Jesus just telling us of some physical things that will happen in some future time when you and I will probably be in the grave anyway.
No, we won't be in the grave but with Christ among the celestials while this is going on.
QuoteIn all these scenarios, if taken as you seem to want me to take them, I see them as only affecting those who are alive when they happen. You know, like the 7 year thing. Only those who are alive in that generation will have to worry won't they? When the stars are falling and the moon turning to blood, won't it be only those who are alive on that particular day that will be affected? Only they will have to run to the mountains for safety. To I and every other person ever born these things really don't matter do they?
cp
These things will affect everyone
living on the earth WHEN they occur.
We will be "outa here" as they say, during this time.
I believe the "stars falling" is like when we talk about "shooting stars" which are dust particles falling to earth which look like falling stars due to ther bright fiery tail. This will be due to the dust cloud our solar system will enter into which will darken the sun and moon and make the stars to not be seen.
QuoteWe have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46.
ROFL... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
QuoteWe have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46.
ROFL... :icon_flower:
Why do you find that funny, Taffy?
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
QuoteWe have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46.
ROFL... :icon_flower:
Why do you find that funny, Taffy?
No Not Funny Tony, Darn Hilarious ,specially after I read this just after the *CRACKPOT* reference...kinda tickled me...
Its about that Bit on NY, of course we ( thats the rest of the WORLD) kNOW THE *USA* IS THE CENTRE of the universe..., so,Would I find reference to this In the Margin in Mathew....
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 06:05:37 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
QuoteWe have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46.
ROFL... :icon_flower:
Why do you find that funny, Taffy?
No Not Funny Tony, Darn Hilarious ,specially after I read this just after the *CRACKPOT* reference...kinda tickled me...
Its about that Bit on NY, of course we ( thats the rest of the WORLD) kNOW THE *USA* IS THE CENTRE of the universe..., so,Would I find reference to this In the Margin in Mathew....
:icon_flower:
Dear Taffy,
I'm not saying Christ is going to judge the nations
at the United Nations building. I am saying it is LIKE when representatives of nations go to the U.N. building that it will be LIKE that when the representatives go to Israel to be judged as to how their respective nations treated Christ's brethren.
Every individual in the world will not fit into the small area where the judgment will take place. So representatives are sent.
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 06:17:00 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 06:05:37 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
QuoteWe have the United Nations building in New York. When each representative of each nation is seated it is said that all the nations are present there. This does not mean that every individual of every nation fits into the U.N. building. Thus it will be at the judgment in Matthew 24:31-46.
ROFL... :icon_flower:
Why do you find that funny, Taffy?
No Not Funny Tony, Darn Hilarious ,specially after I read this just after the *CRACKPOT* reference...kinda tickled me...
Its about that Bit on NY, of course we ( thats the rest of the WORLD) kNOW THE *USA* IS THE CENTRE of the universe..., so,Would I find reference to this In the Margin in Mathew....
:icon_flower:
Dear Taffy,
I'm not saying Christ is going to judge the nations at the United Nations building. I am saying it is LIKE when representatives of nations go to the U.N. building that it will be LIKE that when the representatives go to Israel to be judged as to how their respective nations treated Christ's brethren.
Every individual in the world will not fit into the small area where the judgment will take place. So representatives are sent.
Gee...Kinda took ya Literally Bud....I must come to understand analogies, similitudes, shadows et all....might Help me some....
:icon_flower:
I wrote....
In all these scenarios, if taken as you seem to want me to take them, I see them as only affecting those who are alive when they happen. You know, like the 7 year thing. Only those who are alive in that generation will have to worry won't they? When the stars are falling and the moon turning to blood, won't it be only those who are alive on that particular day that will be affected? Only they will have to run to the mountains for safety. To I and every other person ever born these things really don't matter do they?
Tony, you wrote...
These things will affect everyone living on the earth WHEN they occur.
We will be "outa here" as they say, during this time.
I believe the "stars falling" is like when we talk about "shooting stars" which are dust particles falling to earth which look like falling stars due to ther bright fiery tail. This will be due to the dust cloud our solar system will enter into which will darken the sun and moon and make the stars to not be seen.
So, according to you Tony, only the people living on the earth at the time when these things occur will be affected. These things then have no meaning to anyone else of any other generation in any way according to you?
Are you saying that the stars falling are not literal physical stars falling?
Brother, you should watch shows like Omega Code 2. They depict the end times almost word for word as you do.
Tony, you said...
I believe that this man of lawlessness will, by craft and lies, amalgamate the world kingdoms to be under his control.
Whose control is the world under now in your opinion? Will God be overpowered by this man of lawlessness's craft and lies so that God loses control for a time?
Thank you for clarifying some things, Brother and please be patient with me as I seek wisdom.
cp
Hi Tony
In regard to calling fire down from heaven...this can be an apparent answer to a prayer..or request for God to declare whom He is with..as difinitive in Elijah and the false prophets
of Baal.
Also, it is the calling down of condemnation and the judgement of God on those we judge as worthy of destruction.
Do you not realize that the Muslim zealots..with their strike on the USA trade center...and the falling of the economy of
the USA 7 years later..is their [god] doing a miraculous work of judgement against us in their eyes?
Now, we who follow Jesus know what He said to the sons of thunder in regard to calling down fire from heaven on men in judgement.....and those that do such things know not what matter of spirit they are. They do not know the TRUE GOD..but
there is someone sitting in that seat of Moses in their temple
JUDGING LAW and not being a doer of the Law.
Now the tsunami that hit the Muslims countries..caused some
to rethink such things...and yet,Christians and jews have thought this ,too. was their God exacting venegance.Again,
judging law and not doing law
Jesus said 'love your enemies" And those with such perceptions of God..have another image in their temple..
Not the TRUE GOD..
my :2c:
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 06:27:04 PM
I wrote....
In all these scenarios, if taken as you seem to want me to take them, I see them as only affecting those who are alive when they happen. You know, like the 7 year thing. Only those who are alive in that generation will have to worry won't they? When the stars are falling and the moon turning to blood, won't it be only those who are alive on that particular day that will be affected? Only they will have to run to the mountains for safety. To I and every other person ever born these things really don't matter do they?
Tony, you wrote...
These things will affect everyone living on the earth WHEN they occur.
We will be "outa here" as they say, during this time.
I believe the "stars falling" is like when we talk about "shooting stars" which are dust particles falling to earth which look like falling stars due to ther bright fiery tail. This will be due to the dust cloud our solar system will enter into which will darken the sun and moon and make the stars to not be seen.
So, according to you Tony, only the people living on the earth at the time when these things occur will be affected. These things then have no meaning to anyone else of any other generation in any way according to you?
Yes, only the people living on the earth at the time these things occur will be affected. Dead people can't be affected because the are, well, you know, dead. Now then, you didn't ask if any of the generation Christ spoke these words to would be resurrected and living at the time those things occur. I believe they will.
QuoteAre you saying that the stars falling are not literal physical stars falling?
Danger Will Rogers, trick question!
QuoteBrother, you should watch shows like Omega Code 2. They depict the end times almost word for word as you do.
Tony, you said...
I believe that this man of lawlessness will, by craft and lies, amalgamate the world kingdoms to be under his control.
Whose control is the world under now in your opinion? Will God be overpowered by this man of lawlessness's craft and lies so that God loses control for a time?
Just as the kingdoms of this world are run by Satan, and Satan is under God's control, thus the man of lawlessness will be under Satan's control who is under God's control.
QuoteThank you for clarifying some things, Brother and please be patient with me as I seek wisdom.
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 06:27:04 PM
I wrote....
In all these scenarios, if taken as you seem to want me to take them, I see them as only affecting those who are alive when they happen. You know, like the 7 year thing. Only those who are alive in that generation will have to worry won't they? When the stars are falling and the moon turning to blood, won't it be only those who are alive on that particular day that will be affected? Only they will have to run to the mountains for safety. To I and every other person ever born these things really don't matter do they?
Tony, you wrote...
These things will affect everyone living on the earth WHEN they occur.
We will be "outa here" as they say, during this time.
I believe the "stars falling" is like when we talk about "shooting stars" which are dust particles falling to earth which look like falling stars due to ther bright fiery tail. This will be due to the dust cloud our solar system will enter into which will darken the sun and moon and make the stars to not be seen.
So, according to you Tony, only the people living on the earth at the time when these things occur will be affected. These things then have no meaning to anyone else of any other generation in any way according to you?
Yes, only the people living on the earth at the time these things occur will be affected. Dead people can't be affected because the are, well, you know, dead. Now then, you didn't ask if any of the generation Christ spoke these words to would be resurrected and living at the time those things occur. I believe they will.
So all of these things that will happen that are written about in so much of the Bible are really only for a relatively few people?
Are you adding just the people to whom Jesus physically spoke these words to?
So no other people will be around to really see any of the things we are speaking of?
Is most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?
Tony, here is one that is confusing me a bit too. You wrote....
Just as the kingdoms of this world are run by Satan, and Satan is under God's control, thus the man of lawlessness will be under Satan's control who is under God's control.How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?
cp
Why do you say it is for just a few people? The whole world is going to be controlled by the man of lawlessness. Does that mean more than a few to you?
1Jo 5:19 We are aware that we are of God, and the whole world is lying in the wicked one."
Jesus did not dispute that Satan was controlling the kingdoms of this world:
Luk 4:5-7 And, leading Him up into a high mountain, the Adversary shows Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a second of time." (6) And the Adversary said to Him, "To you shall I be giving all this authority and the glory of them, for it has been given up to me, and to whomsoever I may will, I am giving it." (7) If you, then, should ever be worshiping before me, it will all be yours."
But He did dispute his wanting to be worshipped.
He is the god of this eon. By "god" it is mean "placer" or "subjector" of this eon.
Quote from: TonyWhy do you say it is for just a few people? The whole world is going to be controlled by the man of lawlessness. Does that mean more than a few to you?
LOL It already is. Or haven't you noticed?
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with
the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.--Rev 12
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 10:41:02 PM
Why do you say it is for just a few people? The whole world is going to be controlled by the man of lawlessness. Does that mean more than a few to you?
1Jo 5:19 We are aware that we are of God, and the whole world is lying in the wicked one."
Jesus did not dispute that Satan was controlling the kingdoms of this world:
Luk 4:5-7 And, leading Him up into a high mountain, the Adversary shows Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a second of time." (6) And the Adversary said to Him, "To you shall I be giving all this authority and the glory of them, for it has been given up to me, and to whomsoever I may will, I am giving it." (7) If you, then, should ever be worshiping before me, it will all be yours."
But He did dispute his wanting to be worshipped.
He is the god of this eon. By "god" it is mean "placer" or "subjector" of this eon.
I mean by only a few people, that compared to all the people that have ever lived the people you think will benefit from all this 'Scripture' are very few.`Are you saying only those alive during the 7 year period of the man of lawlessness and the people to whom Jesus was talking to will witness man of lawlessness' reign?
Tony I did not ask if Jesus disputed that satan was controlling the kingdoms of the world, I asked...
How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?I also asked you, but maybe you overlooked it, I asked.....
Is most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?Can you please comment directly to these questions? They are important to me to try to understand your position.
cp
Whole???
Aren't the believers immume that control?
Assuming the control is about leading people away from the Light...
Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 10:50:45 PM
Quote from: TonyWhy do you say it is for just a few people? The whole world is going to be controlled by the man of lawlessness. Does that mean more than a few to you?
LOL It already is. Or haven't you noticed?
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Rev 12
Molly, I was going to ask Tony that later. I am curious now as to how, in his opinion, satan is controlling the world.
cp
QuoteClaypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
missed this- :icon_flower:
yeah T, sure be interesting to know what are these LYING signs ,(FALSE wonders)-FALSE miracles :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on February 05, 2009, 07:35:24 AM
When he comes he will come with all power and for 3 1/2 years will amalgamate dominions to his control. The latter 3 1/2 years he will persecute Christ's brethren from Jerusalem.
It appears from the mindset of some, that there is a deep psychological need to blame sin, and the sin of others - such as that of Adam and Eve, on something outside of themselves. Thus, the thought of Satan; "the" Anti-Christ to come, is one of the most popular themes throughout the churches, and worldly religions. Yet, it is that which comes from within the heart, and mind of men – "that defiles."
"Raising the exterior works, in order to protect their interior."
Let us Not continue to justify all manner of war and persecution with the demons of man!
peacemaker
(The prince of this world had it's end in 70 A.D.)
Christ's ministry, per se, was 3 1/2 years? Cutting it short, wouldn't you say?
4In whom the god of this world [aion] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--2 Cor 4:4
So are we no longer in the age where the god of this age is blinding the minds of men? If we are still in that age, men are still blinded.
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Are there still such deceivers going out into the world? Is there one great deceiver who is still deceiving the whole world?
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him..
[which deceiveth the whole] "world"
G3625
οἰκουμένη
oikoumenē
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.
Are we still dealing with the roman empire? Or are we past this age of being deceived by satan?
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Therefore the world ... them which believe not ... knoweth us not, because they knew him not.
"I see" said, the blind man. Thus, Not All inhabitants (world) are blind, only them which believe Not the "Good News!"
peacemaker
Quote from: Taffy on February 06, 2009, 02:02:12 AM
QuoteClaypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
missed this- :icon_flower:
yeah T, sure be interesting to know what are these LYING signs ,(FALSE wonders)-FALSE miracles :icon_flower:
They might be like the magicians Moses and Aaron confronted in Egypt?
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 11:05:40 PM
How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?
I also asked you, but maybe you overlooked it, I asked.....
I believe he is in charge of the spiritual forces of wickedness. I believe that he makes the leaders of the world go to war etc. But he is God's dog on a leash, if you will. God is still in charge of Satan.
QuoteIs most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?
Can you please comment directly to these questions? They are important to me to try to understand your position.
cp
I don't know as I never asked anyone. But I will say this, until God opened my eyes and heart to the words of the evangel in the Bible, I could not understand them.
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 05:11:26 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 11:05:40 PM
How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?
I also asked you, but maybe you overlooked it, I asked.....
I believe he is in charge of the spiritual forces of wickedness. I believe that he makes the leaders of the world go to war etc. But he is God's dog on a leash, if you will. God is still in charge of Satan.
QuoteIs most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?
Can you please comment directly to these questions? They are important to me to try to understand your position.
cp
I don't know as I never asked anyone. But I will say this, until God opened my eyes and heart to the words of the evangel in the Bible, I could not understand them.
Thanks Tony. What I meant when I asked you about the Bible being a dead book to most people is that according to what I am hearing from you only people who are alive at the time of occurances like the 7 year man of lawlessness' reign will be affected. Is this how you see it? Like David and Goliath. Other than it being a good story for Bible studies or bedtime do you see it applies to all people of all time in any way? Or is it an incident that is to be only applied in a physical way to the time of the occurance? If you do see it affecting all people, all the time, how do see this?
How would you describe what you call 'the spiritual forces of wickedness'? Are these forces literal in a physical way or literal in strictly spiritual ways? Either way, could you explain a bit?
Do you think the anti christ is here and maybe made Bush and other world leaders go to war?
cp
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 05:06:05 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 06, 2009, 02:02:12 AM
QuoteClaypot, what needs explaining? It is what it is. It just has to be believed to be what it is.
"All power" "signs" and "false miracles." KJV has "lying wonders" for "false miracles."
missed this- :icon_flower:
yeah T, sure be interesting to know what are these LYING signs ,(FALSE wonders)-FALSE miracles :icon_flower:
They might be like the magicians Moses and Aaron confronted in Egypt?
(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/animaux/serpent/serpe022.gif)
Kinda agree, the Lying poisonous Tongues,
which can mess the mind..kinda Decieve Being Flase and UNTRUE
Psa 78:43 How he had
wrought his
signs in Egypt, and his
wonders in the field of Zoan: The sign\s and Wonder of HIM..healing the sick, the True physcian, Healing comes via faith , faith comes by SEEING and HEARING...Signs and WONDERS( miracles, in the
EARTH and In the
HEAVENS)..
Jhn 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him,
Except ye*******
see *****y
*****signs and wonders,**** *** ye will not believe. ***
Jhn 4:49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
Jhn 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Jhn 4:51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told [him], saying, Thy son liveth.
Jhn 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
Jhn 4:53 So the father knew that [it was] at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Jhn 4:54 This [is] again the second miracle [that] Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.
EVER THOUGHT Our Minds a wrought by Miracles and the TRUE sign Being HIM.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 06:15:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 05:11:26 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 11:05:40 PM
How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?
I also asked you, but maybe you overlooked it, I asked.....
I believe he is in charge of the spiritual forces of wickedness. I believe that he makes the leaders of the world go to war etc. But he is God's dog on a leash, if you will. God is still in charge of Satan.
QuoteIs most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?
Can you please comment directly to these questions? They are important to me to try to understand your position.
cp
I don't know as I never asked anyone. But I will say this, until God opened my eyes and heart to the words of the evangel in the Bible, I could not understand them.
QuoteThanks Tony. What I meant when I asked you about the Bible being a dead book to most people is that according to what I am hearing from you only people who are alive at the time of occurances like the 7 year man of lawlessness' reign will be affected. Is this how you see it? Like David and Goliath. Other than it being a good story for Bible studies or bedtime do you see it applies to all people of all time in any way? Or is it an incident that is to be only applied in a physical way to the time of the occurance? If you do see it affecting all people, all the time, how do see this?
All people who have lived on this earth since Paul penned the account of the man of lawlessness have not literally experienced his 7 year stint. The good news is that all Christians who have lived and who have read what Paul wrote on this matter and believed, were concoled that "the day of the Lord is not present" until those things Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-11 would come to pass. That is the spiritual application it has today in that it consoles us.
QuoteHow would you describe what you call 'the spiritual forces of wickedness'? Are these forces literal in a physical way or literal in strictly spiritual ways? Either way, could you explain a bit?
I believe the forces are literal in a spiritual way. In other words they literally are wicked spirits?
Eph 2:2 in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world,
in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness "
QuoteDo you think the anti christ is here and maybe made Bush and other world leaders go to war?
I would have no idea if the antichrist is here. But surely Satan made them go to war because God willed it.
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 06:43:29 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 06:15:44 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 05:11:26 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 11:05:40 PM
How, in your physical perspective, is Satan running the kingdoms of this world?
I also asked you, but maybe you overlooked it, I asked.....
I believe he is in charge of the spiritual forces of wickedness. I believe that he makes the leaders of the world go to war etc. But he is God's dog on a leash, if you will. God is still in charge of Satan.
QuoteIs most of the Bible kind of a dead book to the majority of people in your opinion?
Can you please comment directly to these questions? They are important to me to try to understand your position.
cp
I don't know as I never asked anyone. But I will say this, until God opened my eyes and heart to the words of the evangel in the Bible, I could not understand them.
QuoteThanks Tony. What I meant when I asked you about the Bible being a dead book to most people is that according to what I am hearing from you only people who are alive at the time of occurances like the 7 year man of lawlessness' reign will be affected. Is this how you see it? Like David and Goliath. Other than it being a good story for Bible studies or bedtime do you see it applies to all people of all time in any way? Or is it an incident that is to be only applied in a physical way to the time of the occurance? If you do see it affecting all people, all the time, how do see this?
All people who have lived on this earth since Paul penned the account of the man of lawlessness have not literally experienced his 7 year stint. The good news is that all Christians who have lived and who have read what Paul wrote on this matter and believed, were concoled that "the day of the Lord is not present" until those things Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-11 would come to pass. That is the spiritual application it has today in that it consoles us.
QuoteHow would you describe what you call 'the spiritual forces of wickedness'? Are these forces literal in a physical way or literal in strictly spiritual ways? Either way, could you explain a bit?
I believe the forces are literal in a spiritual way. In other words they literally are wicked spirits?
Eph 2:2 in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness "
QuoteDo you think the anti christ is here and maybe made Bush and other world leaders go to war?
I would have no idea if the antichrist is here. But surely Satan made them go to war because God willed it.
Tony, I see you see much more in spiritual ways than you let on. The spirit realm is where the real living seems to take place and you show it to be true by your explanation of your views. I too see this as true.
Do you see God as only spirit?
All of the physical leads to the spiritual in some way. This I see and now I see you see it too and this helps me.
We'll be home soon Brother and yes, we are home right now for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see...........and believe me, I'm not talkin physical eyes and ears here!!!
cp
claypot, I really was buried with Christ when He was burried. I also really was raised from the dead when He was raised. I really am seated with Christ among the heavens even now. I am a new creation now. I am alive from among the dead. I am righteous before God. I am in Christ. How's that for true spirituality? And I really believe it!
Quote from: Tony N on February 07, 2009, 01:30:45 AM
claypot, I really was buried with Christ when He was burried. I also really was raised from the dead when He was raised. I really am seated with Christ among the heavens even now. I am a new creation now. I am alive from among the dead. I am righteous before God. I am in Christ. How's that for true spirituality? And I really believe it!
:icon_flower:
A King and priest :icon_flower:
Amen.
Quote from: Taffy on February 07, 2009, 01:33:19 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 07, 2009, 01:30:45 AM
claypot, I really was buried with Christ when He was burried. I also really was raised from the dead when He was raised. I really am seated with Christ among the heavens even now. I am a new creation now. I am alive from among the dead. I am righteous before God. I am in Christ. How's that for true spirituality? And I really believe it!
:icon_flower:
A King and priest :icon_flower:
:happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap:
... a standing ovation!
peacemaker
2Cor. 3:2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,
Is this a literal letter written with ink and papyrus? Or is it a spiritual letter?
2Cor. 3:3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."
Whether we like it or not, we are being read every day by our actions and words with our neighbors and friends. Are they getting a mixed message? Or do they see the consistency of "a letter of Christ"?
Are we manifesting a letter of Christ engraven with the spirit of the living God on the tablets of the heart? I often fail at this. Often the ink the letter people read seems to be a little smeared here and there. It seems the paper is a little torn here and there.
But there is hope! Read about all the problems those Corinthians were having and which Paul was addressing! And yet Paul still wrote that they were written on Paul's heart and that they were manifesting a letter of Christ. The word is translated into our lives to be read by all men.
These Corinthians must have known about the law written on stone tablets. Maybe they also read about those early Israelites who had hearts of stone which God would be replacing with hearts of flesh. I wonder if this is where we get the phrase "hard hearted"?
"The letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying." Paul did not mean that the letter engraven on their hearts was killing. But the letter of the law was killing yet the spirit is what brings to life a living relationship with God.
How does your letter read to your neighbors and friends? If they can "read you like a book" what is that book saying to them? Can they read a letter, as it were, from Christ? A letter of love? of sacrifice? of devotion to your heavenly Father?
Ah, the spiritual side of things is always much brighter than the fleshly side.
Tony
To use words that are symbolic to start with to represent various dimensions of being is only normal, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds. If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk. Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant? While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant. Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread? Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic. He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.
Yes, we are symbolic beings by virtue of our powerful capacity for language and abstract thought.
The cognitive psychologists and linguists claim that thought determines destiny. First the thought, then the feeling, then the act. Control the thought, control the feeling, control the act, control the destiny.
Is it so simple as that? The battle is a spiritual one, and that in the realm of thought.
God gave the man Adam language and then gave the god-Man Adam a command.
But that same gift was used by satan to deceive and murder, which could really sum up all the history of the last 6000 years.
Language is a tool which can be used to kill or make alive, controlling as it does our thoughts, feelings, and actions.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
--Gen 4
[sin lieth at the] "door"
H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605; an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Proverbs 18:21
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.
:cloud9: Molly, that's almost exactly the way He showed me it works. Satan speaks a thought to our mind, and if we accept it, it creates an attitude, and that attitude produces an action. It really is that simple, and why we have a HELMET of salvation. Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on February 09, 2009, 06:50:26 AM
To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds. To represent various dimensions of being is only normal. To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds. If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk. For words to represent various dimensions of being is only normal. Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant? While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant. Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread? Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic. He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.
Ref,
So good and right on IMO!
cp
Yes, and the Israelites had blood of the passover Lamb
on their doorposts...And all the Egyptians houses were dark
but all the Israelites house had light.
Quote from: claypot on February 09, 2009, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on February 09, 2009, 06:50:26 AM
To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds. To represent various dimensions of being is only normal. To use words that are symbolic to start with, inasmuch as they are "words," not the thing they call up in our minds. If when you said "chair" one would literally appear in your friends head, you would be walking around killing people if you tried to talk. For words to represent various dimensions of being is only normal. Do you think Solomon was so stupid that he didn't understand what the various levels of meaning in his Song of Songs meant? While in a boat together, Jesus warned His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, meaning their doctrine; but, they discussed among themselves what He meant. Was He scolding them because they forgot to buy bread? Jesus characterized His entire manner of teaching as symbolic. He expressly said He was always intentionally speaking in parables, and without parables He did not speak.
Ref,
So good and right on IMO!
cp
But Jesus spoke to the people in parables only after it was made apparent to Him that Israel was not going to accept Him as Messiah.
Mat 13:10 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables
to them?
Mat 13:11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."
Later Jesus told His disciples to be warry of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees.
So was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .
(Mar 8:31) And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."
(Luk 9:22) saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."
(Luk 17:25) Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
(Act 9:16) for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
Luke 2;34 Then Simon blessed them and said to Mary
'This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many
in Israel, and to be a SIGN that will be spoken against.
His whole life was a sign...a signpost of the 'way" we
should walk in this earth.
I am the Way and the Truth and the Life
Signs and symbols...words and letters,parabolic and pictorial
all designed to show forth spiritual eternal realities.
Our Father is a Great Teacher.
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 03:06:50 AM
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
Was that a parable, as they often involve a character :wink1:
peacemaker
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 03:06:50 AM
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.
There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.
Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:
QuoteSo was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .
(Mar 8:31) And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."
(Luk 9:22) saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."
(Luk 17:25) Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
(Act 9:16) for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
Quote from: Tony N on February 11, 2009, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 03:06:50 AM
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.
There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.
Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:
QuoteSo was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .
(Mar 8:31) And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."
(Luk 9:22) saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."
(Luk 17:25) Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
(Act 9:16) for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.
I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34
I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.
I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.
cp
I saw a young woman on a stage, which from a distance looked somewhat more impressive than close-up where the black paint was scuffed and dirty. She was confidently saying something to the effect that, "...by using the Bible symbolically rather that literally is central to the great deception the Bible warned was coming upon people in these last days. By trying to use what should be directly understood to instead stand for allegories they will make it say anything they want." Hearing this was so indescribably frustrating to me; but, I was just a spirit, floating horizontal to the stage at about the level of her head. I reached for her jaw as she was speaking such adversarial words without understanding. Even as I thought I couldn't affect something in the material realm, being just a spirit, I discovered to my surprise I was not only moving her jaw, but affecting her own being at a spiritual level such that she was very shaken, staggering backward with her mouth hanging open.. The word that was then spoken to me was: "I will have a people who have been taught of me." This gave me great comfort.
You do know that is what racial dispensationalists teach? I've heard Hal Lindsay, John MacArthur and others say it. It is a very uninformed view that robs believers of much wealth and knowledge. Not only history of interpretation but Scripture itself bears witness to many allegories, types and symbols.
Galatians 4:21-31, (AV)...
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
It this passage concerning the symbolic an example for emulation in additional portions of the law, a kind of key to what else God would decode to our wondering eyes or does it describe a limit?
your brother, James Rohde
:cloud9: Yes, He will........
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 04:02:26 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 11, 2009, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 03:06:50 AM
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.
There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.
Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:
QuoteSo was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .
(Mar 8:31) And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."
(Luk 9:22) saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."
(Luk 17:25) Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
(Act 9:16) for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.
I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34
I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.
I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.
cp
Claypot, if you lived during the time of the apostles and if the only account you ever received was John's account, you would never even know Jesus spoke in parables because it is never mentioned in John's account.
The parables that are supposed to be parables are said to be parables in the other accounts. Otherwise nothing else is a parable.
Now I'm not saying that some things which are not parables are not to be taken figuratively. We see types and shadows in the Old Testament concerning the Christ in the New.
Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 04:02:26 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 11, 2009, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 11, 2009, 03:06:50 AM
Tony wrote......
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
This is classic Tony. Brother, you know how to keep a conversation going don't you?
cp
cp, I am disappointed in your statement. It adds nothing to trying to get to the truth. Rather, it gives the false impression that I made a statment only to keep a conversation going.
There was an important point I was making, in case you missed it, and which you failed to quote.
Here, I'll repost the part that I wrote and which I wanted an answer to:
QuoteSo was Jesus just being parabolic when speaking of His death? that He must be suffering much . . . etc. . . .
(Mar 8:31) And He begins to teach them that the Son of Mankind must be suffering much and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed and after three days rise."
(Luk 9:22) saying that "The Son of Mankind must be suffering much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be roused."
(Luk 17:25) Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
(Act 9:16) for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."
I don't think so. One just can't make a parable out of everything Jesus said.
Sorry Tony, I was in a mood and took it out on you. It is good to be esteemed highly enough in your sight to warrant disappointment although I am ashamed of myself for causing this with a Brother. Let me try again.
I thought of the Spirits words that say but without a parable spake He not unto them. mk4.34
I think Jesus' death and suffering happened in a physical way yet I think it was God speaking directly to our 'hearts' and minds things spiritual. His death and suffering is a parabolic story in the sense that the death and suffering that Jesus experienced are like nothing we imagine them to be.
I not only believe we can make a parable out of everything Jesus said but I think we must do so to see all God intends us to see.
cp
Claypot, if you lived during the time of the apostles and if the only account you ever received was John's account, you would never even know Jesus spoke in parables because it is never mentioned in John's account.
The parables that are supposed to be parables are said to be parables in the other accounts. Otherwise nothing else is a parable.
Now I'm not saying that some things which are not parables are not to be taken figuratively. We see types and shadows in the Old Testament concerning the Christ in the New.
Tony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact. As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth.
God's language . .to me . . .is not in what is written . . .but it's in the creation. What is written is simply man's way of relaying what is created. Your take on the parables seems very limiting. You make it sound like many things Jesus did and experienced were just happenstances . . .cooincidence . . .when there is really no such thing . . .again . .in my opinion.
Everything was maticulously laid out at the foundation of the world . . .everything Jesus not only said, but did was with purpose . .on purpose. . ."in" purpose. Matthew 23 depicts something that for me is very telling . . .where it says "Jesus left the temple . . ." It reminds me of what Elijah saw from the cave on the mountain . . .he saw all these great wonders manifesting before him . .but God was not in them . . .Well . . . unfortunately . . . the shadow "was" in the temple, but the substance left it because those running the temple doctrines, rejected the very one who established and enabled their safe passage into light and life.
When Jesus healed a blind man . .asked him what he saw . . .he said he saw men as trees walking . . . you really think Jesus was having an off day that day? That he just didn't have enough faith in him to heal this guy in one shot? Or could it be that Jesus was using the situation to reveal even a deeper revelation of the nature of his ministry? Men are trees . . .take that to the garden . . .it's a whole other can of worms . .but it's fascinating to get into.
Bottom line . . . that "is" the nature of God . . . he speaks to us by way of natural events and actions . . not just in words . .but in deed as well. Why do you suppose so many references speak of Christ "sitting" at the "right hand" of the Father? You don't think that is an allegory of something else?
Seeing things spiritually . . .is identifying the allegory in the text, and letting that "reveal" to you the message spiritually intended. An allegory, to me, is not another definition for "spiritual". For me . .it's what opens the understanding of the spiritual content.
QuoteTony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact. As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth.
Dear Nathan, I am sure, that's why I said it. It is not just my opinion but a fact. An allegory is not a parable.
Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not a literal statement.
Literally it is "sitting at the rights of God" (Mark 16:19).
It is a position of power since the right (hand) of God is His strong arm if you will (not that He really has arms and legs).
But it is not spoken as a parable but as symbolic language.
When reading the Genesis account of the creation I see all sorts of types and shadows of the gospel in it. I am not as you would characterize, one who takes everything literal all the time.
Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 08:21:20 PM
QuoteTony, be sure when you make these statements as you do, you also add that this is just your opinion . .this is not fact. As was very well shared from Galatians 4 on another thread . . .the topic touching on the son of Sarah being of promise, and the son of her handmaiden being one of law . . .is an allegory . . it is a natural experience revealing a spiritual truth.
Dear Nathan, I am sure, that's why I said it. It is not just my opinion but a fact. An allegory is not a parable.
Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not a literal statement.
Literally it is "sitting at the rights of God" (Mark 16:19).
It is a position of power since the right (hand) of God is His strong arm if you will (not that He really has arms and legs).
But it is not spoken as a parable but as symbolic language.
When reading the Genesis account of the creation I see all sorts of types and shadows of the gospel in it. I am not as you would characterize, one who takes everything literal all the time.
par⋅a⋅ble /ˈpærəbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [par-uh-buhl] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.
Funny, the dictionary seems to think that a parable and an allegory are pretty much the same . . .fact?
My dictionary is better than yours . . .
Main Entry: par·a·ble
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-bəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolē comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw — more at devil
Date: 14th century
: example ; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
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Main Entry: al·le·go·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈa-lə-ˌgȯr-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural al·le·go·ries
Etymology: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora assembly — more at else, agora
Date: 14th century
1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence ; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression
2: a symbolic representation : emblem 2
Quote from: Tony N on February 13, 2009, 12:09:27 AM
My dictionary is better than yours . . .
Main Entry: par·a·ble
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-bəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolē comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw — more at devil
Date: 14th century
: example ; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
-----------------------------------------------------------
Main Entry: al·le·go·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈa-lə-ˌgȯr-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural al·le·go·ries
Etymology: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora assembly — more at else, agora
Date: 14th century
1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence ; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression
2: a symbolic representation : emblem 2
Of course it is . . .everything you see is better than everyone else . . . why would your dictionary be any different.
QuoteOf course it is . . .everything you see is better than everyone else . . . why would your dictionary be any different.
Thank you.
God is working and Jesus is working. All will be well and is well for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
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