Natural and Spiritual

[Tony N]

Tony wrote to bro. Bobf:
Since Jesus dispatches the angels when this eon is ending to kick out of the kingdom all the sons of the wicked one, how was the seed of the wicked one taken out of Paul since his conversion was almost 2000  years ago and the eon has not ended yet?
Remember the tares have to grow up with the wheat until the end of the eon and then at the end of the eon Jesus sends the angels to take out of the kingdom all the tares.

Bobf replied:
I believe I did answer.  The ends of the eons were come upon Paul.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ends of the eons] are come.

Tony's reply:

O.K. friend, let's have take a look at what you have written and see if it will work, shall we?

Now then as I wrote before, our dear sister fireinfolding wrote that the eon ended when Christ either came or when He died on the cross (not really sure exactly as I'm going from memory). Either way, that causes major theological problems since Jesus told His disciples that all of Matthew 24 and 25 and John said that everything from Rev. chapter 1 up to chapter 20 would happen before the eon ended.
And Jesus told us that the tares and the wheat would be separated at the end of the eon by the angels.

Now then there seems to be disagreement between Bobf and fireinfolding since Bobf believes that the end of the eon came to Paul.

But let's really try to keep an open mind here and ask Father for further light concerning this.
Here is the actual verse dear bro. Bob quoted:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ends of the eons] are come.

Now I will quote the Concordant Literal:
1Co 10:11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."

Pleast note "consummations" is plural meaning more than one and "eons" is plural meaning more than one eon.
Note also Paul does not say that the end of the eon came.
Rather, Paul and those of his persuasion had attained to the consummations of the eons.
What does this mean? I think it means that when the eons consummate that God will be reconciled to all mankind, all mankind will be justified, saved, vivified or made alive, be at peace with God etc. and that Paul and the believers attained to that.

Now then, let's just say that Bobf is correct for the sake of argument, that the eon did end in Paul's day. If this is the case then all Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 and 25 and John spoke of in Revelation 1 through 19 occurred before the eon ended in Paul's day.

We know that didn't happen.
Therefore the eon Christ spoke of which was to end when all those things occur did not end in Paul's day and therefore Christ did not dispatch His angels into Israel to kick out all who are making snares and doing lawlessness. Because Christ said that separation is to take place at the end of the eon.

We are still in the present wicked eon (Paul wrote that to the Galatians in chapter 1 verse 4:
"Who gives Himself for our sins, so that He might extricate us out of the present wicked eon, according to the will of our God and Father,

So we know that the wicked eon in which the Son of Man was crucified and in which Paul lived had not ended yet since it was still present.
The next two eons will be marked by righteousness and not wickedness.

Therefore, it is my understanding that when Paul believed, the end of the eon did not happen and therefore Christ did not send His angels to separate the sons of the kingdom from the sons of the wicked one and did not kick out the sons of the wicked one when Paul believed.
The eon does not end each time someone believes. Christ does not send His angels into Israel each time a person believes and start the whole process over and over again of kicking out of the kingdom ALL making snares and doing lawlessness.

So If I were me, this is what I'd write in answer to Bobf.  :laughing7:

[bobf]

O.K. friend, let's have take a look at what you have written and see if it will work, shall we?

Pleast note "consummations" is plural meaning more than one and "eons" is plural meaning more than one eon.
Note also Paul does not say that the end of the eon came.

Yes, I noted that in my brackets [ends of the eons].  If "end of the eon" must refer to the end (in time) of a certain age in history, then to be consistent, wouldn't "ends of the eons" also have to refer to the end (in time) of all ages in history?

Now then, let's just say that Bobf is correct for the sake of argument, that the eon did end in Paul's day. If this is the case then all Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 and 25 and John spoke of in Revelation 1 through 19 occurred before the eon ended in Paul's day.

We know that didn't happen.

I don't know that it did happen and will not pretend to be able to prove that it did happen.  But as far as I can see Tony, the only way I could know those events did not happen would be to know that those passages are literal-only.  Those passages could be speaking literally, figuratively, or both at the same time, couldn't they?

A few things that motivate me to doubt a literal-only interpretation of those passages:
- Jesus said "this generation shall not pass away till all these things are fulfilled."  That alone should raise ALOT OF DOUBT that those events were not fulfilled.
- Jesus was telling them to watch and every generation to watch lest Jesus come as a thief and take them by surprise.  The whole passage sounds immenent on those Jesus is speaking to.
- The descriptions of Jesus coming like a thief are upon the living - they are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage, just like in the days of Noah.
- In Acts 2 Peter said "THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and one of those things was " sun & moon would be darkened, which is one of the events described in Matthew 24-25 and in the book of Revelation.

• Ezekiel 12:21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

If I say that Matthew 24-25 and Revelation are ~2000 or more years into the future from when given, am I not saying that those visions were "for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off" instead of "the days are at hand and the effect of EVERY VISION" and "IN YOUR DAYS...will I say the word are perform it"?

So please tell me how I know that those passages are literal-only and could not be using physical symbols to represent spiritual events being fullfilled in that generation and each generation that is being told to watch?

Thanks,
Bob

[Tony N]

Hi Bob,
Friend, please notice in Matthew 23:36 where Jesus told His audience: "Verily, I am saying to you: All these things will be arriving on this generation."
That generation did experience what Christ said would come upon them.

However, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:

Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36  "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."  (35)  Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."  (36)  Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."

Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.

THe may and the should are subjunctives.


"As we approach this question of the time of Christ's appearing, whether it is past or future, it should first of all be noted that in the Original, each of these statements of Jesus concerning His appearing (e.g., Matt.10:23b; 16:28; 24:34) is expressed in the subjunctive mood, sometimes with the conditional particle an (EVER) included. These grammatical features are reflected in the Concordant Version by the auxiliaries "should" and "may."
"The subjunctive mood calls attention to the contingent (i.e., dependent) nature of what is being affirmed. It speaks of the connection which obtains between what is affirmed and that upon which the affirmation depends for its fulfillment.
In the nature of things, if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is unrevisable and is certain to occur. But if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is not unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is revisable and is not certain to occur."
The whole article on "This Generation" may be read here: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html

I realize it might not be easy reading but with careful reading it is understandable.

Now then, there is another possibility to what Christ said about "this generation." It is possible that in the resurrection spoken of in Daniel 12:2 that the generation Christ spoke to would see His appearing and all those events prior to it after they were resurrected:

Dan 12:2 "From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

Notice the "eonian repulsion." Those for eonian repulsion are the sons of the wicked one. At the end of the eon Christ will send forth His angels and those sons of the wicked one will be repulsed out of the kingdom for the duration of that eon.

And Here is what Peter said:
Act 2:16-21  But this is that which has been declared through the prophet Joel:  (17)  And it shall be in the last days,' (God is saying) 'I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your youths visions shall be seeing, And your elders dreams shall be dreaming,  (18)  And surely on My men slaves and on My women slaves in those days shall I be pouring out from My spirit,' and they shall be prophesying."  (19)  And I will give miracles in heaven above, And signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and vapor pillars of smoke,  (20)  The sun shall be converted into darkness And the moon into blood Ere the coming of the day of the Lord, The great and advent day."  (21)  And it shall be that everyone, whosoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.'"

Please note that Joel and Peter say that "I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh." In Peter's day God's spirit was only poured out on a select few people in the upper room. Not only that, but the miracles in heaven and signs on the earth etc. etc. never came to pass . . . yet . . . but they will.

Yet look at what Peter says in chapter 3 of Acts:
Act 3:19-21  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

So we know that Israel as a nation had to repent before seasons of refreshing should come from the face of the Lord and before God would despatch Christ Jesus to come back to Israel.

Acts is an historical account of Israel's rejection of the offer and how Israel was set aside and the door of faith was opened to the nations. So, as to the prophecies coming to pass of Matthew 24 and 25 and Revelation 1-19, they are put on hold until the secret of Paul is finished

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

So it is really due to the secret that only Paul knew that everything was put on hold for Israel including the finishing of the prophecies concerning Christ coming back. Once the complement of the nations does come then and only then will Matthew 24 and 25 and Revelation 1-19 take up again then "arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer."

We are still in the current wicked eon (Gal.1:4). When this eon ends the earth will know righteousness from pole to pole like never before for Christ will dwell with mankind.

If the eon ended in Christ or Paul's day the last two thousand years would be marked by wonderful righteousness all over the earth. But, sigh, such has not been the case.

[Nathan]

Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..


Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon. 

There is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return? 

I don't buy that anymore.  Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit.  And Christ himself "is" spirit.  Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE.  How can you be ONE and only know in part?

No, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation.  They were the ones that started their own ending. 

This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.

[Taffy]

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/sports/pingpong/ping006.gif)
anyone for a game :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/sports/pingpong/ping006.gif)
anyone for a game :icon_flower:

I should have known . . .if anyone could find one, it'd be you!

[bobf]

Hi Bob,
Friend, please notice in Matthew 23:36 where Jesus told His audience: "Verily, I am saying to you: All these things will be arriving on this generation."
That generation did experience what Christ said would come upon them.

However, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:

Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36  "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."  (35)  Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."  (36)  Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."

Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.

THe may and the should are subjunctives.

Hi Tony, I'm not any kind of expert in Greek, but I do know for a fact that a verb being in the subjunctive mood does not have to impart "maybeness"  to the verb in question.  The subjunctive mood can be employed (at least in some situations) when the action or event is certain to come to pass.  I can give you definite examples of this, but I'm not sure that grammtical form of those examples are similar to this one, so they may or may not apply to this passage.

This might not be the best example, but it's in the context:

Mark 13:35 Watch ye, therefore, for ye have not known when the lord of the house doth come, at even, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or at the morning; 36 lest, having come suddenly, he may find you sleeping.

If a person is not watching and Christ comes suddenly, He will find him sleeping in the sense of the passage, i.e. not being prepared.

I'll take a look at the rest of your post when I get a chance and maybe find some better examples about the subjuntive.

Could you tell me how you know those passages are literal-only and therefore have not come to pass?

Thanks,
Bob

[Tony N]

Hi Bob,
1st off, Matthew 24 and 25 were not spoken in parables or symbolically.

Mat 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many."

24:5=Literal


Mat 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation."

24:6=Literal

Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."
Mat 24:8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs.

24:7,8=Literal

Mat 24:9 Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name."
Mat 24:10 And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another."

24:9,10 = Literal. We know from many other scriptures about the great tribulation to come upon them.


Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many."

24:11 = Literal. How could it be figurative?


Mat 24:12 And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling."
Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."

24:12,13 = Literal.


Mat 24:14 And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving."

24:14 = Literal

Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
Mat 24:16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.
Mat 24:19 Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"
Mat 24:20 Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted."

24:15-22 = Literal. Daniel did not write those those things as a parable or as figurative, symbolic.

Mat 24:23 Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! or 'Here!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."
Mat 24:25 Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."

24:23-27 = Literal. Why couldn't false christs and false prophets literally come about?

Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered."

24:28 = Literal but with veiled meaning. When Christ comes, His disciples will really be gathered to Him like a vulture gathers around a corpse. His presence will be very noticeable like lightening from east to west is visible.

Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

24:29 = Literal. The solar system will either move into a intergalactic dust cloud. This will be due to the powers of the heavens being shaken. The solar dust will block the sun and moon and as the particles go through the admosphere it will look like what we call "shooting stars."

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."

24:30 = literal

Mat 24:31 And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities."

24:31 = literal

Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn a parable: Whenever its bough may already be becoming tender, and the leaves sprouting out, you know that summer is near."
Mat 24:33 Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near-at the doors."
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."

24:32-35 Well, and I said Christ never spoke in parables in Matthew 24 and 25 but here is a parable!

Mat 24:36 Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."

24:36 = Literal

Mat 24:37 For even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:38 For as they were in those days before the deluge, masticating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all away, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."

24:37-39 = Literal

Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.

24:40,41 = Literal. The one taken is the one cast out of the kingdom by the angels since they are a son of the wicked one.

Mat 24:42 Be watching, then, for you are not aware on what day your Lord is coming."
Mat 24:43 Now that be knowing, for if the householder were aware in what watch the thief is coming, he would watch, and would not let his house be tunneled into."
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also become ready, for in an hour which you are not supposing, the Son of Mankind is coming."
Mat 24:45 Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent slave whom the lord places over his household to give them nourishment in season?
Mat 24:46 Happy is that slave whom his lord, coming, will be finding doing thus."
Mat 24:47 Verily, I am saying to you that over all his possessions will he be placing him."
Mat 24:48 Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'"
Mat 24:49 and should begin to beat his fellow slaves, yet may be eating and drinking with the drunken,
Mat 24:50 the lord of that slave will be arriving on a day for which he is not hoping, and in an hour which he knows not,
Mat 24:51 and shall be cutting him asunder, and will be appointing his part with the hypocrites. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."

24:42-51 = Literal

The last verse might be better translated: (DRB)  "And shall separate him and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The angels will come and cut him away from the rest of Israel and cast him out of the kingdom to have to live among the nations.

Now the judging of the nations as to how they treated Christ's brethren.
This judging is when He comes back. It is all literal. He is going to turn the nations literally into sheep and kids (or goats). Not. But you get my drift.

Mat 25:31 Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
Mat 25:32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
Mat 25:33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left."
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world."
Mat 25:35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
Mat 25:37 Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
Mat 25:38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
Mat 25:39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'"
Mat 25:40 And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'"
Mat 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
Mat 25:42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
Mat 25:43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'"
Mat 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Christ is so identified with those suffering Jewish believers who went through their great tribulation that anything good or bad the nations did to His brethren they did to Him.
I see no good reason not to take this literally.

I left out the story of the wise and foolish virgins since it is a story of preparedness that they must go through to be ready for His return.

Tony

[bobf]

Tony,

Could you put into a few short words or bullets what is the "test" that tells you that a given passage of scripture is literal-only?

Thanks,
Bob

[bobf]

However, please note the differences in this declaration Christ gave:

Now notice what Jesus told His audience here in Matthew 24:34-36  "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."  (35)  Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."  (36)  Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."

Notice, Christ said He didn't really know when that day would arrive. Only the Father knew. By all appearances Christ thought it would come upon them. He did not lie.

THe may and the should are subjunctives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/subj-detail-frame.htm

QUOTE:

Subjunctive of Emphatic Negation

a) This is a way to strongly deny that something will happen. It is the strongest way to negate something in Greek.
b) It is formed by using a double negative (ou mh) with an aorist subjunctive verb (or possibly future indicative).  While ou plus the indicative denies a certainty, ou mh plus the subjunctive denies even the potentiality.
c) It is translated "certainly not" or "never", with the English future tense.
d) This use is found primarily in the reported sayings of Jesus and in quotes from the Septuagint. Outside of these two occurrences, it is used only rarely.
e) Examples:

i) Matthew 24:35
"but my words will not at all (certainly not) pass away."
"oiJ de; lovgoi mou ouj mh; parevlqwsin."

ii) Matthew 5:20
"unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of the heavens".
"ejan mh; perisseuvsh/ uJmw'n hJ dikaiosuvnh plei'on tw'n grammatevwn kai; Farisaivwn, ouj mh; eijsevlqhte eij" th;n basileivan tw'n oujranw'n."

iii) Hebrews 13:5
"I will not at all (certainly not) fail you, nor will I ever leave you."
"Ouj mhv se ajnw' oujd ouj mhv se ejgkatalivpw:"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So according to this, Jesus was saying in the strongest way possible that that generation would certainly not pass away till all these things are fulfilled.

[Zeek]

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.


but in about 40 years later, we are told this:

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

what happened during that 40 years:

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.


...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Colossians 1:23)



Col 1:5  because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,

Col 1:6  which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

[peacemaker]

The solar system will either (?) move into a intergalactic dust cloud. This will be due to the powers of the heavens being shaken. The solar dust will block the sun and moon and as the particles go through the admosphere (atmosphere) it will look like what we call "shooting stars."

"If you take your eyes off the star momentarily; it may change direction."

                                           (http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/471/471121bgaqz2vhp8.gif)

peacemaker

[Tony N]

Tony,

Could you put into a few short words or bullets what is the "test" that tells you that a given passage of scripture is literal-only?

Thanks,
Bob

Dear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?
When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.

If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.

If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?

[bobf]

Dear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?

When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.

If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.

If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?

Good questions.... honestly I believe the answer is that is has to be revealed by Jesus Christ.

How did Paul know in Galations 4:24 that the stuff he referred to in Genesis was an allegory?  I mean it sounds purely literal, right?  Do you see anything in the text in Genesis that would tell Paul it was an allegory?

Where did the hearers go wrong interpeting "destroy this temple..." literally?

Why did Jesus say the JTB was Elijah who was to come?  I mean JTB was not literally Elijah, right?

BTW Tony, I'm not saying that if something is figurative it can not also be literal.

[bobf]

thanks bobf for input, I appreciate your posts.

wondering how u see these this verse, and how you relate it to nebec. story and it being the process all men go through.

Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I see this as:

narrow (life, broken, ears to hear, faith) vs. wide (destruction, perpetual shame).

or

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


are you saying before a person can go through the narrow door, he first had to go through the wide door,

crushed, ground first,

then converted,

then broken?? 


thanks

z

Hey Zeek,

Was just perusing the scriptures and read this and thought of your question.

Deuteronomy 9:21 And I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, even until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.

[Tony N]

Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..


Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon. 

Dear friend, yes, we've been over this before but it seems you have not really grasped the issue of the darkness yet.
For instance, Jesus did not say that the eon would end when He died. The disciples asked Him when the end of the eon would come and what would take place to mark its end. Jesus never said: The eon will end when I die. The sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light when I die. Do you understand that?
Now let's get directly to this darkness matter and how it relates to the ending of the eon in Matthew 24. Please, Nathan, I beg you to really try to understand this so we don't have to keep going round and round the mulberry bush.

Please dear brother, note the word affliction:
Mat 24:15-21  Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"  (16)  then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.  (17)  Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.  (18)  And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.  (19)  Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"  (20)  Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,  (21)  for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."

The great affliction comes AFTER the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

Now when is the sun darkened? Here is the hint by Jesus:

Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Please notice that the sun is darkened AFTER the abomination and AFTER the great affliction of the JEWS.

There is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return?

Jesus said Himself He didn't know the day He would return, only the Father knew that. Just because Jesus can't convince you of that does not mean He is wrong.  :bigGrin:

I don't buy that anymore.  Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit.  And Christ himself "is" spirit.  Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE.  How can you be ONE and only know in part?

Dear friend, maybe you need to hear what Jesus said about Him being spirit:

Luk 24:39 "Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
Jesus said He wasn't a spirit.

No, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation.  They were the ones that started their own ending. 

This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.

Some would disagree with you. If 70A.D. is the completing of ALL Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 and 25 then there are major eschatological problems with that.

Nathan, can you at least see what I am saying as to the sun being darkened and Jesus not being a spirit? Can you now see that when the sun was darkened when Christ died is not the fulfillment of Matthew 24?

Love,

Tony

[Tony N]

Dear Bob,
If what Christ said is not a parable or symbolic, I take it as literal.
How do you know this is literal . . .
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers"?
or
"God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth"?

When Jesus gave the story of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 I believe He was being highly figurative. Yet we know that He was using that story to show His followers that they literally need to always be ready for His return.

If His coming again which He spoke of is hightly figurative, then "this generation" must also be hightly figurative and stand for something other than a literal generation.

If some of what He said in Matt.24 is not to be taken literal, which passages are not to be taken literally? And if the passages which appear to be given by our Lord as literal, how should they be taken figuratively?

Good questions.... honestly I believe the answer is that is has to be revealed by Jesus Christ.

How did Paul know in Galations 4:24 that the stuff he referred to in Genesis was an allegory?  I mean it sounds purely literal, right?  Do you see anything in the text in Genesis that would tell Paul it was an allegory?

Good question. I wish I had a good answer. I have an idea but not even I'm convinced of it yet.  :bigGrin:

Where did the hearers go wrong interpeting "destroy this temple..." literally?

I think even His disciples would have interpreted what He said wrongly. But Jesus said that the temple the disciples were amazed at would be destroyed and it was. That is how I know that what He said in 24 was not allegorical.

Why did Jesus say the JTB was Elijah who was to come?  I mean JTB was not literally Elijah, right?

This is what Jesus said, the lightfact type is not in the Greek text:
Mat 11:14 "And, if you are willing to receive him, he is Elijah who is about to be coming."

Mat 26:26 Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body."

Often when "estin" is used in Greek it shows us a metaphor: this is that, i.e. "She is a tank" when speaking of a weight challenged woman. If the Greeks wanted us to know that something literally is something else they left out the "estin" or the "is."

Jesus's body was not literally the bread He broke and neither was John the baptist literally Elijah.

BTW Tony, I'm not saying that if something is figurative it can not also be literal.

And I'm not saying that if something is literal that it has to be figurative.  :happy3: Think about that for a while and you'll go batty.

[Nathan]

Here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush . ..


Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


We've been over this many times bro . . .the sun did darken . . .it was pitch black at 3 in the afternoon. 

Dear friend, yes, we've been over this before but it seems you have not really grasped the issue of the darkness yet.
For instance, Jesus did not say that the eon would end when He died. The disciples asked Him when the end of the eon would come and what would take place to mark its end. Jesus never said: The eon will end when I die. The sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light when I die. Do you understand that?
Now let's get directly to this darkness matter and how it relates to the ending of the eon in Matthew 24. Please, Nathan, I beg you to really try to understand this so we don't have to keep going round and round the mulberry bush.

Please dear brother, note the word affliction:
Mat 24:15-21  Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"  (16)  then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.  (17)  Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.  (18)  And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.  (19)  Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"  (20)  Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,  (21)  for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."

The great affliction comes AFTER the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

Now when is the sun darkened? Here is the hint by Jesus:

Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Please notice that the sun is darkened AFTER the abomination and AFTER the great affliction of the JEWS.

There is no way you can convince me that Jesus was sent to die . . be tortured, shamed and damned unto death for a people that would despise the very ticket that reverses the curse . . .and as a result of this . . .he will return but not told "when" he could return?

Jesus said Himself He didn't know the day He would return, only the Father knew that. Just because Jesus can't convince you of that does not mean He is wrong.  :bigGrin:

I don't buy that anymore.  Jesus said the only reason why he did what he did was because he saw it was already completed in the Spirit . . .everything is already completed in the spirit.  And Christ himself "is" spirit.  Not to mention he and the Father ARE ONE.  How can you be ONE and only know in part?

Dear friend, maybe you need to hear what Jesus said about Him being spirit:

Luk 24:39 "Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
Jesus said He wasn't a spirit.

No, I see this as saying the day and hour was established by God, but left up to the hands of men . . .again, A.D. 70 was not a war where an enemy invaded the land . . .it was an implosion of a religious nation.  They were the ones that started their own ending. 

This is like one of those never ending volleys in a tennis match . . ."PING" . . .the ball is again in your court.

Some would disagree with you. If 70A.D. is the completing of ALL Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 and 25 then there are major eschatological problems with that.

Nathan, can you at least see what I am saying as to the sun being darkened and Jesus not being a spirit? Can you now see that when the sun was darkened when Christ died is not the fulfillment of Matthew 24?

Love,

Tony

Tony, I've never stated that I "didn't" see what you were saying . . what I have stated is . . .there is so much more to benefit from than just focusing on the literal piece of everything.  Your answers are repetitive as are your arguments. 

I've made things as plain as I can . . . and everything I see has been based on Scripture, just not adhered to it.  By that I mean, the Word "points" to Life as a sign points to a city.  But the sign is not the city anymore than the written Word is Life.  God gave us a blueprint of his nature.  We are fashioned after that nature . .which then tells me we are also fashioned after that blueprint.

The blueprint is the tabernacle.  God explained that to Moses when he built it that it was a "pattern".  And as such, everything stems from that . .which means that just there are three dimensions to that, there are three dimensions to God . .to us . .and to his Word . .so rather than assume some things are to be taken literal whereas others are to be taken spiritual . . . I believe EVERYTHING was meant to be understood literally TO THEM and EVERYTHING is to be appled morally . . .and EVERYTHING is to be applied Spiritually.  And in each realm of those three things, every verse applies. 

It's great that some see the literal perspective . . .and others really have the moral value down . .and others still see the spiritual perspectives . . . but the truth is . . .all three are accurate and all three have benefit.  BUT there are different levels of benefit.  When Scripture points out that my mind is always at emnity . . . then I take that seriously and don't let my head lead the way.  And then when it says lean not on your own understanding . .that only affirms even more that this isn't about what my mind thinks it knows.  Then when I read where the spirit speaks to my spirit . . .Chirst is a spirit, I'm to walk in the spirit . . . it becomes clearer to me that "that" is the realm I'm to pursue.

The entire arguement being presented here in Mathew 24 and 25 is that you say Jesus went through all that trouble of getting the disciples all concerned about something that wasn't to happen for 2,000 years later.  Now think about this . . you keep insisting I think in things you say . . .let's turn the tables for just a sec.  If the person you respect the most came to you and said "God just spoke to me and 2000 years from today, the world is going to be completely destroyed . . ."  Just how concerned would you be? 

There is NO indication that any of the things Jesus shared in those two chapters were to be things happening 2000 years later.  He never says that it's going to happen later . . .in fact in every place he brings it up, there is an urgency to the message and "the time is at hand" is repeated much.  As for his reference to Daniel . . . What he was doing was breaking a seal that had been placed on the scroll that Daniel received hundreds of years earlier.  There is only one worthy to break that scroll . . .what you see in Revelation is what Jesus did right before their eyes.  He opened the book that had once been sealed. 

This is why we bounce the ball back and forth bro .  . . you ignore all the signs that point to what I'm saying, and I choose not to apply them the way you're saying it.  It's not that I can't see it . .in fact it's just the opposite.  I "do" see it and I disagree with how it's being applied.

Many people here rely on their logic when applying Scripture . . .well . .it just makes absolutely no sense for Jesus to reopen a can of worms that Daniel started with, for the sole purpose of closing the can for another 2000 years.  And say Jesus "would have" (in your opinion) tried to tell them that they were going to experience these things . . . just how differently would he have to have worded it?

The sun . .moon, and stars . . .is ISRAEL . . . and ISRAEL's identity went black in A.D. 70.  What happened through the cross that manifested darkness to the world, happened to a nation that rejected the only light in existence.  Their glory no longer would shine. 

[Tony N]

Nathan, when Adam and Eve sinned God told them some good news about the seed. Why would He tell them that when after all, He knew the Seed would not appear for thousands of years later? Yet they thought their next son would be the deliverer and the next and the next.

So Jesus is able to do the same thing with the disciples in stating something about to be happenning when actually it would take thousands of years before it happened.

Jesus also told His listeners that if they believe in Him they would never die. Yet they did. But thousands of years later, in the resurrection, they will be made alive and those who believed in Him will never die.

Remember, God's clock is not our clock.

BTW you keep changing your story. First you state that when Christ died and the sun was darkened that this was the fulfillment of Matt.24 but now you state that 70 A.D. is the fulfillment of the sun being darkened. At least that's how I take what you are saying.


Nathan, I know I brought this up before but it needs repeating:

Act 3:18-21  Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills.  (19)  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.


Do you see that? The nation of Israel had to repent so that . . .

Obviously Peter understood Matthew's account about "this generation" better than we 2000 years later because he shows that the national repentance must come first then Christ Jesus would come. He also shows that heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restoration of all. Since they did not repent, they were set aside according to Paul's secret here:

Rom 11:25-26  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."


And since the restoration of all did not occur, Christ has not come back yet and all those things in Matt.24 must occur before He comes back and Acts 3 and Romans 11:25,26.

[chuckt]

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

1 cor15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

[Zeek]

The sun . .moon, and stars . . .is ISRAEL . . . and ISRAEL's identity went black in A.D. 70.  What happened through the cross that manifested darkness to the world, happened to a nation that rejected the only light in existence.  Their glory no longer would shine. 

one last time, i'll post this perspective on Israel's identity went "black"

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/lights_went_out.htm

[rosered]

 
  Love this cjhapter bro!  amen!  the conclusion :HeartThrob:

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Cr 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?


1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.


1Cr 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.


1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.
1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?  1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.


1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.


1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

[Nathan]

Nathan, when Adam and Eve sinned God told them some good news about the seed. Why would He tell them that when after all, He knew the Seed would not appear for thousands of years later? Yet they thought their next son would be the deliverer and the next and the next.

So Jesus is able to do the same thing with the disciples in stating something about to be happenning when actually it would take thousands of years before it happened.

Jesus also told His listeners that if they believe in Him they would never die. Yet they did. But thousands of years later, in the resurrection, they will be made alive and those who believed in Him will never die.

Remember, God's clock is not our clock.

BTW you keep changing your story. First you state that when Christ died and the sun was darkened that this was the fulfillment of Matt.24 but now you state that 70 A.D. is the fulfillment of the sun being darkened. At least that's how I take what you are saying.


Nathan, I know I brought this up before but it needs repeating:

Act 3:18-21  Yet what God announces before through the mouth of all the prophets - the suffering of His Christ - He thus fulfills.  (19)  Repent, then, and turn about for the erasure of your sins, so that seasons of refreshing should be coming from the face of the Lord,  (20)  and He should dispatch the One fixed upon before for you, Christ Jesus,  (21)  Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.


Do you see that? The nation of Israel had to repent so that . . .

Obviously Peter understood Matthew's account about "this generation" better than we 2000 years later because he shows that the national repentance must come first then Christ Jesus would come. He also shows that heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restoration of all. Since they did not repent, they were set aside according to Paul's secret here:

Rom 11:25-26  For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."


And since the restoration of all did not occur, Christ has not come back yet and all those things in Matt.24 must occur before He comes back and Acts 3 and Romans 11:25,26.

Look . . . it's the pattern we're to allow ourselves to be fitted into. . .not our logic.  What's your pattern?  Are you three dimensional or not?  Can you not see things in more than one dimension or not?  I didn't "change" my story . . .I shared more than one dimension of it.  It's what I see, it's how I see it and it does fit the pattern dimensionally.  God established a physical temple and gave physical commandments of how that temple should be run.  1st dimension.  The symbolization of the things and activities within that temple represented different aspects of the relationship between a nation and the Father . . .2nd dimension.  What?  know ye not "you" are a temple of the holy ghost??  It took a physical temple (dimension one) that represented a nation's cleansing process by the "activity" of ministering in the temple (dimension two) and took it "internal"  Which is what I've been saying all along . .dimension three.


There was a physical darkness when the fulfillment of Christ purpose was completed at the cross . .dimension one.  But when the nation rejected that, darkness came to the nation . .dimension 2.  And when an INDIVIDUAL rejects the fact that Christ is the Messiah, they to walk in a darkness WITHIN themselves . .dimension 3.  It's not logic I follow, it's a pattern.  Walking in my own understanding of what I think and comprehend is not walking in faith, nor is it walking in spirit.  

The disciples had a terrible time understanding the things that Jesus said and did, but they never rejected him.  And that's the crux.  I don't care whether people understand it all or not . . . I don't understand half of the things I say either . . .but what I to try to stress is don't "reject" the things being said.  Because as you said yourself . . .there are seeds being planted that come to manifest at a later time.  My argument with this perspective you adhere to is that you're taking something that was meant as literal for "them" and you're jumping ahead 2,000 years later and saying it's to be taken literally now.

"I'm" saying it's literal intent has already manifested.  And yes, we're to apply it now, but not literally.  We're to apply it "inwardly".  

The thing with Adam and Eve . . .God didn't explain to them of "things that must come" as Jesus did.  He didn't say to them "in this generation the seed will (or "may" or "kinda") bruise . . ." Granted, it was a foretelling of the fact that inspite of their disorder, order would be restored.  But that's not the context in which Jesus was sharing with the disciples.  It's apples and oranges.

As far as them never dying . .I disagree with you there as well.  I believe it happened just as Jesus said it did.  Life isn't waiting to still come to those that believed and physically died.  Life came the instant they submitted themselves to it. . .THEN.  And as a result, their spirits never had to experience another separation (death) ever again.  They never died.

And unfortunately I'm still not seeing the relevance of your passage in Acts about Israel having to repent . . .what's the point you're trying to make with that?  What's the argument that you're applying that to?  Oh, wait . . .you're looking at the fact that the nation of Israel must repent before Christ would return . . .sigh . . .which is still seeing it as a physical, bodily return, rather than a spiritual return to AN INDIVIDUAL'S spirit.  Have you never seen Christ in you?  Is that not a "return" of Christ to "your" earth?

Jesus professed himself as a king . . . he was mocked at the cross for it for the very same reasons the church, including yourself this time, are expecting him to phyisically rule this physcial earth.  The disciples themselves . . .even AFTER he died, was buried, and then resurrected, they STILL thought he was going to take the LITERAL and PHYSCIAL throne.  But what did he say?  He said his KINGDOM is NOT of THIS WORLD . . .which means his kingdom is SPIRITUAL . . ..INVISIBLE . .not PHYSICAL.  But yet we still think he's going to come to this PHYSICAL earth???  What makes us any different than the disciples 2000 years ago?

I will say one thing for you Tony . . .the more I try to explain and clarify what I see . . the more clearer it becomes to me.  I should at least be thanking you for that much.  Pursue the spirit . .walk in the spirit . . .cuz in the end . . . he's going to rule and reign in the physical?  Natural mind twisting around and mixing flesh and spirit . . .oil and water . . .you ever actually try to do that?  Mix oil with water?  I don't mean just pour a quart of oil in a gallon of water . . .I mean really "try" to mix the two . . .like . .getting your egg beaters and really blending in the oil and water . . .you know what you get?  You get a clouded mixture of the two.  And when you leave the laws of physics to themselves . .the two will eventually separate once again on their own.

It's the same way here . . . we mix our reasoning with spiritual truth and we conclude in a cloud of something that we can't accurately call truth but because we know there's oil in it, we try to sell it off as something valuable.  It isn't my mind that rightly divides . . .how can something that's at enmity have the ability to rightly divide anything?  It's the Word IN ME that does the dividing.

Bottom line . . .I "have been' (past tense) seated with him in high places . .it's already a done deal.  I don't have to wait for anymore physical manifestations for anything to be complete in me . .it's already done spiritually.  My physical nature simply goes through the maturity "process" of growing into the awareness of all things already complete.  The earth groans for the manifestation of the sons of God . . .the carnal man craves for physical manifestations of what's already complete in the spirit.  When we walk in the spiritual realm, we will see the spiritual completion in all things.

[Cardinal]

The blueprint is the tabernacle.  God explained that to Moses when he built it that it was a "pattern".  And as such, everything stems from that . .which means that just there are three dimensions to that, there are three dimensions to God . .to us . .and to his Word . .so rather than assume some things are to be taken literal whereas others are to be taken spiritual . . . I believe EVERYTHING was meant to be understood literally TO THEM and EVERYTHING is to be appled morally . . .and EVERYTHING is to be applied Spiritually.  And in each realm of those three things, every verse applies. 

It's great that some see the literal perspective . . .and others really have the moral value down . .and others still see the spiritual perspectives . . . but the truth is . . .all three are accurate and all three have benefit.  BUT there are different levels of benefit.  When Scripture points out that my mind is always at emnity . . . then I take that seriously and don't let my head lead the way.  And then when it says lean not on your own understanding . .that only affirms even more that this isn't about what my mind thinks it knows.  Then when I read where the spirit speaks to my spirit . . .Chirst is a spirit, I'm to walk in the spirit . . . it becomes clearer to me that "that" is the realm I'm to pursue.

:cloud9: YES!  :thumbsup: :goodpost: :Urock: :happyclap:

[Cardinal]

. . .you ever actually try to do that?  Mix oil with water?  I don't mean just pour a quart of oil in a gallon of water . . .I mean really "try" to mix the two . . .like . .getting your egg beaters and really blending in the oil and water . . .you know what you get?  You get a clouded mixture of the two.  And when you leave the laws of physics to themselves . .the two will eventually separate once again on their own.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: I've shared this before, but the analogy the Lord gave me was taking some earth, water and oil and putting them into a jar and shaking them. The earth goes to the bottom, the water in the middle, and the oil rises to the top. All of creation (and it's laws) manifest His glory, and if you get the pattern understanding down FIRST, all the rest of it opens itself up like the book that it is, and witnesses to the Word that is Spirit. Blessings....