Natural and Spiritual

[Nathan]

Nat and Tony I never said it was Paul because I want to refrain from anything speculative (though I have my own musings on it) because its not important to the discussion.

If you disagree with the past, present or future deal its not me speaking of it  :grin: Im only speaking of a dead body over and against the "in the body or without it" as it pertains to it. Though as I see it the "To day" as a declaration of the Holy Spirit and not a 24 hour period of time (or as you say "our application of time")

No, all's good . . .I know you purposefully declined to share your opinion on whether it was Paul or someone else . . .totally get it.  And I also agree with you that it really doesn't matter whether it was Paul or someone else.  Actually, that's kinda why I "did" share I think it's Paul . .cuz it's not a huge deal whether is wuz or wuznt.  The fact was, "someone" did get taken up into the third heaven while they were yet still in their temporary bodies. . . which seems to be the point you were trying to make . .that we can go there "now" rather than wait until we physically die.  And I also know it wasn't you implying the third heaven in a frame of time. 

I'm not so sure that one can take the incident that is referred to between the thief and Christ and say that due to "that" instance, that one does "not" then immediately go to heaven when one dies.  There are so many dividing lines between people when spiritual things are being applied with natural minds.  Not so much lines of battle, just lines of philosophies.

[reFORMer]

I wrote some things elsewhere about these things.  I hoped then as I hope now to interact.  So often when I post something it drops like a rock into murky depths to never be seen again.  It may be my fault, that I don't interact.  But that still doesn't explain why there isn't much interaction with what I post.  Some of it is the medium were working in.  That is clear to me.  Still, if I'm not making others freeze up, I can't tell the difference.  I sometimes think part of it is my language "style."  I read the Puritans when I was younger...and still do.  (I'm reading and re-reading John Owen on the person and work of the Holy Spirit, 9 books, in vol 3 and 4 of his works.  I could add that most of the great books on the Holy Spirit mention him prominently, granting him a sort of foremost status.  He was in some ways first.  But, this digresses... 

One of the great gifts to the Eclessia in the 20th Century, our brother A. E. Knoch, had another idea of the 3 heavens.  It is what I have seen and heard that has influenced me to differ.)
..............................

HEAVEN(S)

Heaven is not ever used in Scripture for a location in death, though that is it's popular meaning in contemporary English.  While something at least like that place is referred to by Jesus (Lk 23:43) as "Paradise," it isn't anywhere expressly stated that death is a prerequisite for entrance to it.  "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Rv 2:7)  There are other testimonies like Paul's (2 Co 12:1ff) from some among us concerning this place where all saints go.  (This was said to me when I saw angels ascending and descending from a realm of excelling glory, that, "All saints go here.")

On the day of Pentecost in the midst of what Peter had to say are some interesting points contradicting cartoon Christianity's "die and go to heaven" doctrine.  Quoting David he says, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Ac 2:27)  A little later he says, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." (v.29)  Peter points out that David wasn't talking about himself, but was prophesying.  Concerning Jesus being sat down with the Father he says, "For David is not ascended into the heavens..." (v.34)

While never presented as our destination, "heaven" is our place of origin (Rev 21:9-10) and present habitation (Eph 2:6.)  The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture.  In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.) Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.



PARADISE

The realm of Paradise is the higher, closer side, that more directly seen through God's eyes, of this same creation of our outer lowered flesh man, though it is much more than that too. The vast and supernal expression, "...out of Him and through Him and into Him is the All..." (Romans 11:36) is translated by The New English Bible as, "He is the Source and the Guide and the Goal of everything..." Whatever is has it's Source side.  We can be located at other points in this Divine dynamic when we are Harpazo-ed or "caught," (AV) "snatched" (CLV) by God.  The immanent presentation of the cosmos is to not decide our disposition in reality. "Judge not by appearances; but, judge righteous judgment." (Isaiah)  We can be in other times too.  Through the realignment or manipulation of the Holy Spirit I have been granted to glimpse the glory that is right now just around the corner, if we could but enter into the Presence of Our Father.  The Paradise of God is near, like going around a corner.  We have to be free in God, or "possessed" (harpazo) by Him to move into these other realms.  To be free in God we must let Him be free in us.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, reFormer, I love what you write and I glean from it.  :thumbsup: I agree with the 3 heavens; the same was shown to me through the tabernacle pattern.

Outer court/1st "natural" heaven, encompasses all below the firmament (firmament, which is realm of Spirit/heaven) Christ in us

Inner court/realm of Spirit/heaven/us IN Christ

Holy of Holies/where the Father is

God the Father was IN CHRIST (second heaven/firmament) reconciling all men (outer court/first heaven), to Him.

Word for heaven, means "to heave up", like in the sense of a mountain is something "heaved up". Just as not all mountains are not the same height, so too are the different heavens. His ways are HIGHER than our ways.

Second heaven, is not just soulish or psychic, but is the realm of the Spirit of God also. Man can "ascend" for this reason in a pyschic sense, but without the covering of Christ "catching them up "there", those that dabble in those sorts of activities, are as an uncovered woman/soul and as such are easy prey for demonic spirits. Which is why Satan said "I will ascend". Blessings...

[Tony N]

I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third?  :grin: I havent checked  :grin:

Hi FF,
Here is one verse to consider:
2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"

So it seems to me that by "heavens" that means plural or more than one. The original heaven and earth became chaos and vacant (Gen.1). Then the second heaven and earth done in Noah's day with a new heaven and earth coming out of that water too. Then the third heaven and earth coming about after the fire in the future. I believe that the person Paul speaks of saw that third heaven and the paradise on the new earth.

[ScarletWren]

Hi,

I liked your post Reformer.  I don't understand where you go with this in the outcome of humanity though.  I understand that heaven is not a far off golden location where believers go after they die.  I understand it is a spiritual realm and also heavens is typical of government in some ways.  But is there ever an 'end' to the way life here goes on?  Do believers just ascend into this heavenly realm and then what about unvelievers at death?  Are they just also assumed into the heavenlies and completely converted in an instant without having to undergo eartly trials and tribulations AFTER their new birth (as I see that the Bible clearly delineates that it's the trials and tribulations AFTER conversion that make us fit for the Kingdom of God, not anything we endure BEFORE conversion)?  Where does ruling and reigning with God come into play if there is no 'time' on earth where all 'men' see the truth of God through Jesus Christ/a body of sons.  What do the scriptures which speak of a 'time' (there's that word again) when all the inhabitants will learn righteousness, the lion will lie down with the lamb, the sword will be turned into a plowshare, mean if there isn't a literal historical period of God reigning on this earth over fleshly men?  And I still believe that no individual has become perfected other than Jesus Christ because of the emphasis that Paul put on resurrection, and I can't see where he means any kind of resurrection other than a physical one for he spoke of hope and one who is alive in some meaningful way would not be hoping for resurrection.  He never said that the believers' loved ones were enjoying life with Christ, he said they were 'asleep' in Christ.  That is a pretty ambiguous way to describe an abundant life.  I'm truly asking.  I do believe that the spiritual is more 'real', if you will, than the mere physical, but tell me why Paul was so verbose about Christ's resurrection and our FUTURE resurrection if that were just a small matter?  What did the passage in Ezekiel where he said the overcoming priests would serve God dressed in linen in the holy place and then change into 'other' garments when they came to serve the people, but the priests who had given in to their carnality could only serve in the court of the people?  And if you quote a lot of scripture, please tie it in with explanations.  It's just me and not trying to say that what some of you do is not edifying to many others, but I can't follow well with broken sentences, lots of spaces between sentences and just a myriad of scriptures and then definitions of words.  I guess my mind requires a logical train of thought after thought.

Hi Tony, you speak of the first heavens passing away when Genesis spoke of a disruption, etc.  Then you say in Noah's time the second heavens and earth were created.  This confuses me a bit.  What then was the earth and heavens that existed during the time that God created Adam and all the stuff that went on between his creation and the flood of Noah?  Am I missing something here? 

Dang, I have more questions but I am running late for getting ready for work as it is.

Peace

[Tony N]

Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses

2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.

2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:

2Co 12:2-4  I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "  (3)  And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)  (4)  that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "

In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).

That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.

Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.

I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third?  :grin: I havent checked  :grin:

Dear FF,
It has to do with translation:
Rev 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is no more."

There was a heavens and an earth before:

2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"

The third is here:
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "

I'm not saying I have all this down pat. But let's try and piece it together like this:

Genesis 1:1 was the original heavens and earth.
Genesis 1:2 is the 1st new heaven and earth after the original?
After the flood is the 2nd new heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
After the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire is coming the 3rd heaven and earth coming from a destruction?

Does that work?

Besides all that, Christ was D-E-A-D for three days and nights and only on the third day did God rouse Him out of death. And during that death Jesus did not ascend in any way, shape of form to the Father for He said:

Joh 20:17  ". . . Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father."

So Jesus did not, nor did the thief go to paradise the day they died. Not mentally, not physically, not spiritually, not figuratively.

[Taffy]

Tony here I just posted the wrong **numbers** in the provided verses

2Cr 12:2 I knew **a man** in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the **third heaven**.

2Cr 12:4 How that **he** was caught up **into paradise**, and **heard** unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hi FF, thanks for posting that.
Let's look at it like this:

2Co 12:2-4  I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "  (3)  And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)  (4)  that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "

In other words, that man was not only snatched away to the third heaven (which John saw in the future) but that man was snatched away into the paradise (which John also saw on the new earth).

That new heaven and new earth and paradise is yet future. Therefore the paradise which Jesus told the thief that day he would be in was the future paradise yet to come.

Neither Jesus nor the thief were in paradise either mentally nor in reality that day they died.

I dont even go there in relation to where the theif or Jesus went after the declaration I just see it differently. Though I do wonder, He saw a NEW heaven and earth for the FIRST had passed away. So theres first and second wheres the third?  :grin: I havent checked  :grin:

Dear FF,
It has to do with translation:
Rev 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is no more."

There was a heavens and an earth before:

2Pe 3:5 For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"

The third is here:
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "

I'm not saying I have all this down pat. But let's try and piece it together like this:

Genesis 1:1 was the original heavens and earth.
Genesis 1:2 is the 1st new heaven and earth after the original?
After the flood is the 2nd new heaven and earth coming from a destruction?
After the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire is coming the 3rd heaven and earth coming from a destruction?

Does that work?

Besides all that, Christ was D-E-A-D for three days and nights and only on the third day did God rouse Him out of death. And during that death Jesus did not ascend in any way, shape of form to the Father for He said:

Joh 20:17  ". . . Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father."

So Jesus did not, nor did the thief go to paradise the day they died. Not mentally, not physically, not spiritually, not figuratively.

Tony

Fires Left the Forum, so I wouldnt expect an answer Bud.

[Tony N]

I hope it wasn't due to me  :sigh:

[Taffy]

I hope it wasn't due to me  :sigh:

no worries :icon_flower:..

[reFORMer]

CrimsonCrow, aka, ScarletWren,

I'll try more specific responses when I find time later.  These are somewhat involved things that take some time for me to search out.  Few challenge me into expressing my understanding in these matters.  It takes time to find the Bible references that come to mind.

(The following is partially excerpted from a post elsewhere but is more developed here.  I'm answering the "soul-sleep" doctrine that some here believe with some of my present understandings.  It is just what comes to mind now.)
.......................................

There is no reason that such words of Scripture as, "The dead know nothing" must be understood to mean there is no consciousness for spirit apart from the body.  It is clearly in agreement with the corpse of a man being unresponsive to whatever may be said or done to it.  That man knows nothing.  Yet his spirit, being elsewhere, may be not in a death state.  To say that when dead the whole man is dead is an unwarrented assumption in the light of various passages from God's word.  "Strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man" (Ep 3:16) The "inner man"  or, "man within" (CLV) is here distinguished form the outer man.  Daniel spoke of his spirit in it's sheath of the body (Dan 7:15.)  James (2:26) says, "Even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead."  One may have a conviction concerning a conscious belief that goes unexpressed in outward behavior, a faith to be questioned whether it can save, so we may have a consciousness as spirit apart from the body.  Denied by some who think the spirit never sleeps (cf., Song of Songs 5:2,) the possibility that as we have had periods of that mystery called sleep while incarnate, though it is something God never does, we should admit we may have periods of sleep in our disembodied state until we learn otherwise. 

The invasion of Greek mysticism into the developing apostasy of the Church as Institution under Constantine (state funding of religion including Christian "temples" and "priests" that had both never existed for Christianity's previous 300 years) has to this day dichotomized human nature in the self-perception of the common believer, certainly in the west, the scope of my observation.  We need to understand the unity of each human.  It is not that, "I have a body;" but, My body is also me.  If I lay my hand on you, I have touched you.  That said as a disclaimer, notice this word: " Your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:23, YLT)  This distinguishes the Biblical view of man in the image of God as tripartite.  (The history of Institutional Christianity's doctrine early presents another view; but, that is beyond our present consideration.)  When Paul speaks of going into the third heaven (2 Co 12) there is a twice stated phrase, "whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth" that indicates Paul believed in "out-of-body" experiences.  I can confess the same for a number of experiences.  I also can definitely testify to being apart from my body, "in spirit" in other experiences involving my Lord.  These things are completely in agreement with what is written.  I would draw your attention to how what we study in the words of the prophets are resulting from their undergoing similar things.  A word sent from God, or a vision, or a visitation of God or angels, being taken into other realms, all of which are often overlooked as belonging to the normal experience of those who have the Holy Spirit.

The spirit may be considered a kind of body.  This is clear from those things said of the Spirit of God, such as assuming a distinct appearance similar to a dove.  It has wrongly been called error by some councils to teach that as God has expressed Himself as Son, so also He has expressed Himself as Spirit.  What is unknowable as the Father in expression is called Christ.  Though the agent of that expression is the Spirit, the Spirit itself has self-consciousness.  It is true spiritual substance as the Son is actual physical substance.  So, the spirit itself is a kind of embodiment.  (With the exception of a resurrection body) it is more durable than the entirety of our present physical realm.  That is why a spirit may go through a wall.  It is of a higher dimension.  The wall is insubstantial to it.  Since all will be resurrected "in their own order," all will come out of any abode that might be in death.  Scripture knows of five different kinds of death, but, "Death will be abolished" is God's sure word, an inconceivably grand proliferation of life toward which we all are hurtling where all realms will become opened to us.


---your brother, James Rohde

[reFORMer]

RougeRobin, aka, ScarletWren,

(I don't know how to put a link to "Heaven and Our True Near at Hand Hope" that I wrote a while back.  I think it's posted somewhere on tentmaker.  I'm copying the latter part of it here because it answers many of the questions you posed.  I'm embarrased for not spending more time to at least redevelop it; but, it is so late for me, almost a quarter to 2 am!)
...............................


The common misconception is that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven. Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not. When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.) The apostle Paul (in Philippians 3) described his aim: "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21) Resurrection followed by ascension is actually at the finish of the race we are in.

The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam. Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values. While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of us go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere. Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance. We are ultimately destined to enforce through love this blissful glory in all the universe.

To know whether or not this is the generation to make the transition into a world ruled by the people of God as manifest immortals one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil. When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start. Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, it can be for you or any one of us because "The Time" is in God. The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.

At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city. I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000. They've already entered in bearing the ark (Jesus) like the priests who were 2,000 cubits (years) ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan. They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on.  It's about time now to enter on in.

As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age. It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom, as is written, "He will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, into salvation, through faith." (cf., Hb 9:27-28) It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, not even what is popularly referred to as the church. It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest. "Whenever Christ, our Life, should be manifested, then you also shall be manifested together with Him in glory."  (Col 3:4) Christ, hidden in us, His "Revelation...to show to His slaves...," (Rv 1:1) is from whence He dwells.

It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for. When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit. The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos.  Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another. Where are there even two in agreement? and rather than humble earnest hunger, beseeching the Source, many continue assuming sufficient what has been passed down to them by others.  It is not about cobbling together a chain of Bible verses with explanations but entering into The Glory. Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to know of those ascending or to speak authoritatively on just what is transpiring in the heavenlies. When it is important enough or your "manchild" (Rev 12) is in the birth canal, it will be virtually impossible to think about or do anything else.


---Your brother, James Rohde

[ScarletWren]

Hi REformer,

It's late here too, almost midnight.  Thanks for posting that though.  I'll read it again when I'm not so tired.  I am not sure if I'll grasp all of it.  Some I understood.

[Molly]

47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1





If this was an expectation for Nathanael 2000 years ago, surely it should be an expectation of ours.

Those who have seen this or done it, should tell us more, because we need to have our expectations set higher.

That means you, Reformer!

As for me, I watch and wait, expecting--that word that is used so exclusively for pregnant women is meant for all of us. :HeartThrob:

[Tony N]

Wow, 5,555 views for this thread.
I wonder what the spiritual connotations to that number is?  :laughing7:

[Nathan]

Yeah, it feels like 5500 of them are how many times I've clicked on this thing myself . . .what a whirlwind it's been.  And I think I've read every one of them!!!  The posts . . you can't read the readers . . .that would be dmub.

[jabcat]

When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.

[Tony N]

When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.

I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!

[Taffy]

When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.

I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!

No worries T, weve past the 1000  :icon_king:

[peacemaker]

When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.

I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!

No worries T, weve past the 1000  :icon_king:

:myahoo: ... thanks mate, I needed a good laugh today.

And, that was worth more than a thousand words! :LH:

[Taffy]

When it gets to 7777 then you may have something.

I was relived when we got past the 666 post! LOL!

No worries T, weve past the 1000  :icon_king:

:myahoo: ... thanks mate, I needed a good laugh today.

And, that was worth more than a thousand words! :LH:

Always good to hear From you PM :icon_flower: 

Sure hope your wife is improving some Bud, Thinking of yas :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower:

[claypot]

RougeRobin, aka, ScarletWren,

(I don't know how to put a link to "Heaven and Our True Near at Hand Hope" that I wrote a while back.  I think it's posted somewhere on tentmaker.  I'm copying the latter part of it here because it answers many of the questions you posed.  I'm embarrased for not spending more time to at least redevelop it; but, it is so late for me, almost a quarter to 2 am!)
...............................


The common misconception is that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven. Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not. When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.) The apostle Paul (in Philippians 3) described his aim: "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21) Resurrection followed by ascension is actually at the finish of the race we are in.

The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam. Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values. While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of us go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere. Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance. We are ultimately destined to enforce through love this blissful glory in all the universe.

To know whether or not this is the generation to make the transition into a world ruled by the people of God as manifest immortals one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil. When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start. Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, it can be for you or any one of us because "The Time" is in God. The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.

At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city. I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000. They've already entered in bearing the ark (Jesus) like the priests who were 2,000 cubits (years) ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan. They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on.  It's about time now to enter on in.

As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age. It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom, as is written, "He will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, into salvation, through faith." (cf., Hb 9:27-28) It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, not even what is popularly referred to as the church. It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest. "Whenever Christ, our Life, should be manifested, then you also shall be manifested together with Him in glory."  (Col 3:4) Christ, hidden in us, His "Revelation...to show to His slaves...," (Rv 1:1) is from whence He dwells.

It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for. When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit. The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos.  Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another. Where are there even two in agreement? and rather than humble earnest hunger, beseeching the Source, many continue assuming sufficient what has been passed down to them by others.  It is not about cobbling together a chain of Bible verses with explanations but entering into The Glory. Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to know of those ascending or to speak authoritatively on just what is transpiring in the heavenlies. When it is important enough or your "manchild" (Rev 12) is in the birth canal, it will be virtually impossible to think about or do anything else.


---Your brother, James Rohde

James, that's good food for chewin on. I too will read it again and hope to be woke up just a bit more.....maybe a lot more.

Something has happened within me lately. I really feel as if we have come from the God, the Spiritual. I mean I really feel it. I think to myself that this is not my home (the physical), I'm a just a passing through. I 'see' myself kind of being in that realm and looking at my life here in this physical. What this does for me is it helps me to communicate to my neighbor. To say "Hey, we're close to going home, so close. Let's wipe the dust off of ourselves and start pulling up the tent stakes. This was a nice visit, not always, but it's time to call it a day and vamoose."

I can't really explain it but the spiritual seems more real to me. Like you said, Scripture is not a volume of words to argue over or even to swoon over, they are words from our real home, the spiritual, waking us up. We were there, we are there, we are going there.

I can't seem to nail what I really want to say.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think you nailed it just fine CP.  :thumbsup:

[claypot]

Thanks Card but Nathan has a good thread going. Living in the Lightening Realm. He is really taking off with some good thoughts. I am moving so fast that you probably chimed in already there and I missed you but unlikely as your words always make me stop think.

cp

[ScarletWren]

Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum.  I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual.  Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.

I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence.  I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body.  I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions.  I am comfortable with the thought of time.  L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts.  I don't even want to think of not living in time.  I don't want everything to be happening at once.  I want to hear each note progression in music.  One after the other, and that to me requires time.  One moment after another.  what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc.  I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God.  I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc.  Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever.  I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time.  Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.

I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles.  And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.

I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere.  Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.

[Nathan]

Please understand in our quest for maturity in Christ, we may discard things that could bring pause to others, which isn't saying it's right or wrong, but it's okay to see that you are not where others are . . .very seldom are we all in the same room at the same time.

this is the Father's house where there is an endless number of rooms of his nature and glory.  We're always in different rooms of understanding, but we're still in the same house.  The reason I personally emphasize the spirit so strongly is because I see Scripture instructing us to do so. 

And also understand that as great as this natural realm is to your mind . . .the spirit realm is fathoms greater than the natural.  You think the universe in all it's glory is something . . .just think that in the spirit, God created that to, and "that" was our origin in the beginning before the fall . . .the garden is a place where Adam and Eve had no intentions of leaving . . .they had to be driven from it.  And it's a place that we instinctively desire to return to. 

I think much of your wrestling is how all our limited minds percieve heaven to be.  We can't imagine anything being more splendorous than this created earth we live on now.  But I wonder if you're not forgetting, this earth, in it's current state right now . . .it is still under the curse of sin.  There are still usless weeds choking out precious wheat.  There are still poison ivy vines that slowly kill the trees they invaded.  Animals are still killing animals for survival . . .this earth is not our home . . .truly . . .there is even a better place for us than this. 

That's why spiritual things are so hard to imagine, all our mind knows and has known, is this finite realm we live in.  There are no images that we can come up with that truly capture what the spirit realm is really like.  But I for one beleive that this earth . .in all it's greatness and mystery . . is still a hut when compared to what God has prepared for us in the invisible realm . . .the song that has made so much money and broken so many Christian song charts and records "I can only imagine . . ." is a great song  .but it's not exactly true . . .I can't imagine.  My mind just can't comprehend the greatness of God in his creative majesty.