Natural and Spiritual

[Zeek]

My Flesh is Dead , and for sure dont believe that Satan dwells in me...That which was adverse exists No longer , for the MOUTH( New Tongue) speaks TRUTH of the ONE WHO IS TRUTH...proclaiming the One who is the KINGDOM....

AMEN AMEN Taffy,

[claypot]

Good to hear you admit that you sin and that it is because of something adversarial in your being that causes it. You are implying you sin because your spirit is at war with your flesh. I see this in you too, very clearly. You are resisting the spirit IMO and sin is resulting. You are admitting that you are led into capitivity, you sin.

Tony, because I say I have an adversarial spirit I am not claiming to be THE ANTI CHRIST any more than because I have the spirit of God within I am claiming to be JESUS CHRIST.


satan,  saw-tawn'; from Hebrew 07853 (satan); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good :-
adversary, Satan, withstand.

Tony, do you claim to be Jesus Christ?

cp

O.K. then, just come clean cp. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not to be interpreted as the antichrist being inside of you and that therefore it has not come to pass yet.

Jesus and I are one.

  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2THES 2

Sorry Tony, this is a perfect description of what I see going on in me and, sorry Bud, but in you too. You skirted my question about you being Jesus Christ because you have the Spirit of God in you. You said you and Jesus were one but you couldn't bring yourself to say you were Jesus Christ of which I'm glad. I am not saying because people have all this adversarial activity going on within them that they are the anti christ but I am saying they are adversarial to God in certain ways. This is not to minimize that when Jesus Christ is revealed within GALATIANS 1.15 that the works of the adversary is not destroyed as is described beautifully in Thes too.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {his...: Gr. the angels of his power}  8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {taking: or, yielding}  9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.  11  Wherefore also we pray always for you 2thes 1.6

Man, this brings tears to my eyes when viewed as going on within me this very second!

Wish you could see it Brother. You will.

cp

[Zeek]

cp, what do you think of these verses?

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hey Zeek, whatever in me that is born of God does not sin. It is a holy thing within my essence, my temple so to speak. I live and believe in God and in His Son who is within causing me to be resurrected to a new life.

Again Zeek, IMO, this is a process. Creation implies a process. God always was, is and always will be. I am being made, am made, and will be made in the image of God.

Is this answering your question. You have asked it often and it is a good question but are you seeing what I am trying so feebly to communicate to you?

cp

creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".

via faith


so do you see "life" as needing to be further created?? 

[Tony N]

Hey Tony, you wrote...

claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.

Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?

This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.

Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?

You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.

This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.

Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?

cp

cp, what do you think of these verses?

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Zeek, John also wrote this:

1Jo 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh, which we all have has its own law which causes us to sin.

1Co 6:18  Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What of the boy who had sexual relations with his father's mother in Corinthians? He was still a believer.

Christians can and do do things against the brethren:
1Co 8:12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

1Ti 5:20  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Jam 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Have you never lusted after anything?

So, yes, of course Christians do sin.

[Zeek]

Hey Tony, you wrote...

claypot,
I thought your last post to me was rather in poor taste. But I expect such a post from someone who actually believes Satan dwells in them.

Satan is an adversary. Tony, do you have any adversarial thoughts within you? Adversarial to the Kingdom of God? Are all your thoughts pure?

This is what I am seeing God is communicating, that I have that within me that is adversarial to Him. The Good News He also communicates to me is that He has sent His Son into me to save me and not condemn me.

Is the above the extent of the response I can expect from you?

You seek a spiritual essence through physical means. You want to take the Lords words which He said are spirit and make them flesh as much as you deem possible. I have witnessed success in doing these things but it is not for me. God is intimate with the physical as it is a creation of His heart and mind and the physical does lead people to God who is spirit. This is obvious in your case it seems so I will not belittle your attempts. I have fallen into the sinful practice of trying to get you to believe as I do and this is my folly. Something still influences me to sin. I don't know a better way to describe it other than a satanic or adversarial essence within and without my very being.

This is why I am to blame and not some being with horns running around talking me into things. The devil makes a good scapegoat for people with your mindset but for me satan is part of my very being so only I am to blame. Yes, if I said I sin not I would be a liar.

Tony, do you sin at all? If you do, why do you think you sin?

cp

cp, what do you think of these verses?

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Zeek, John also wrote this:

1Jo 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh, which we all have has its own law which causes us to sin.

1Co 6:18  Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What of the boy who had sexual relations with his father's mother in Corinthians? He was still a believer.

Christians can and do do things against the brethren:
1Co 8:12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

1Ti 5:20  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Jam 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Have you never lusted after anything?

So, yes, of course Christians do sin.

so how do you reconcile this verse Tony?

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

something not really possible???

[Tony N]

so how do you reconcile this verse Tony?

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

something not really possible???

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible states:
1Jo 3:9 -
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous."

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible states:
1Jo 3:9 -
"Whosoever is born of God - Γεγεννημενος, Begotten of God, doth not commit sin: "that is," say some, "as he used to do, he does not sin habitually as he formerly did."

[Nathan]

Now Tony . . .if you're going to be a literalist, you have to be consistent with it .. .Scripture says nothing of "habitually" sinning . . .I've heard this argument before . . .you claim "we" change things so we can "hyper-spiritualize" (another of your "invented" words) and yet, you do the same thing.  If you are going to build your  belief system on what is literally written, then you can't be adding words that aren't there.

This whole argument with you and others like you is so messed up.  This is all based on a SPIRITUAL experience in Christ.  And yet you continue trying to hold the spiritual fort down with natural reasoning . . .jeeze . . .so here we go again . . .

If I am IN CHRIST . . .which not only is a person . .but it's also a dimension, a realm . . .a "kingdom" . . .If I am IN Christ, I am in the SPIRIT.  I am still a physical person, but as such, I have the ability to also be in spirit as well.  That's what separates us from animals.  And WHEN I see myself IN Christ . . .then I also am not measuring my outer court.  I'm not measuring my righteousness by my success and failures of obedience . . .therefore . . .I'm not focussing on missing the mark . .because I have entered into a realm of GRACE that covers my sin.

If you want to live as an earth-dweller . .then you'll see nothing but sin and destruction . .but if you choose to live in a resurrected state, then you can see that the blood overrides the sin . .the inability to achieve righteousness through natural means. 

You're not a sinner because you sin . . .you sin because you are a sinner . .you were BORN into being one.  It was totally out of your control due to the first Adam.  And just as being born into sin was out of your control . . .so is being redeemed back to God out of your control as well.  If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS. 

Like everything else . .it's all in the perspective you choose to walk in.

[Molly]

If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS. 

Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:

"It meant Nothing!"

[Zeek]

 


1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

[claypot]

Zeek, you wrote....

creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".

via faith


so do you see "life" as needing to be further created?? 

I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.

Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.

cp

[Zeek]

Zeek, you wrote....

creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".

via faith


so do you see "life" as needing to be further created?? 

I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.

Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.

cp

Ok, but I still struggle with your posts,

are you on that journey from death to life now, (part death, part life?)

or are you alive now?


If you see yourself as still being created, then I would take it you see yourself not "alive" yet??



1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

[Nathan]

If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS. 

Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:

"It meant Nothing!"

Yeah, that doesn't work with my wife either . . . :dontknow:
I'm not saying your actions don't have cosequences, I'm saying your actions do not affect your righteousness/salvation/standing with God.  The price for "that" positition has been paid by the only one worthy of paying it . . .and that is of course Christ.  

But one thing we seem to miss with this is Philippians that talks about Christ working "in" me both to "will" and to "do" his good pleasure.  It's not by "my" works, but through "his" works IN me that bring the maturity in me, and pleasure to him.

In other words . ..if Christ is in you . . .the ungodly things in you WILL CHANGE . .meaning YOU will change.  So for me, as the sins become known to me, that's a picture of dross coming to the top to be removed from the melting gold/silver as it goes through . . .to Zeek's point . . the purifying process of life in Christ.

It's not about sin in me, it's about light shining out . . .but when we walk in "our" nature, we walk in the fallen state of the first Adam and everything has a fallen tint to it.  But when we live "in" Christ, everything has a resurrected tint to it.  Which set of eye wear do you choose to put on?

[chuckt]

I agree that Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about. Even Jesus said he, being a teacher should know these things. The actual literal application of what Jesus was talking about was Israel, as a nation, being begotten anew in a day.

hello T.

i understand this interpretation but why did Jesus say:

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

why didnt he just say ""nation""


thanks
chuckt

[claypot]

2Thes2.3 the man doomed to destruction is the old man of each person. It is the story of 'Adam', every single person. The Spirit is saying 'Hey everyone, you will go from a rough state to a perfect state of being. Let me explain it this way'....and then goes on to write 2 Thes. We are purged of the scaffolding as the finishing touches are completed.

2Thes 2.7 talks of the secret of lawlessness. It works until it is taken out, then my sin is revealed and Jesus overthrows it.

The whole physical world of people is a living (or dead if you will) picture of what is going on within people. There are people who do evil and refuse God and are deluded and who delight in wickedness.

I see in my members that I delight in wickedness, I do evil, I refuse God and so on. I also know that Jesus Christ is destroying, has destroyed and will destroy this 'man' in ME. Jesus is freeing the new man ME. All praise and glory to the Lord!

Molly, I agree with you that we don't take responsibility for being sinners as we should. I hope you see I take it very seriously. Scripture is a story of ME and YOU. You are a satan filled sinner and you are a Christ filled child of God. YOU are. This is YOU and ME, NOW!!! Because of Jesus Christ you ultimately be only a Holy Spirit filled person but now you have other unseemly elements in your very essence.

Tony, I want to apologize for trying to take from you that which you feel gives you life and meaning. The Lord gives to me and you and to all in the good timing of God. I want to continue to discuss these things from my original perspective and that is to grow in God.

The trees do not move the wind. It is the wind that moves the trees. The invisible moves the visible.

I seek to dematerialize myself. I am finding it fascinating that science is taking the physical and, from the physical, finding out it is the invisible things that are the core of all life. I'm thinking of super string physics. Look at a table and many will say it is a physical thing of matter. Light the table on fire and it is reduced to a whole other form, an invisible form yet it is the table still.

Just some thoughts.

cp

[Cardinal]

John 6:24-26...
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (AV)

John 6: 26...
And everyone who is living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon.  Are you believing this? (CLV)

The proof that many who have the esteem of their fellowmen do not believe this is that they have to add modifying words to the text to explain its supposed true meaning.  They insert the word "spiritual," a word Jesus used often enough that He could've certainly used it here if that was His intent.  But, He didn't.  He did NOT say: "Who is living and believing in Me shall never 'spiritually' die."  He was instead announcing that the door into not dying was opened.  Through His own death, burial and resurrection He secured an, "...open door, which no one is able to lock." (Rv 3:8)  This is into partaking of the Divine nature.  Rather than some distant and dubious "last day" in the maze of a religious riddle, Jesus opened it up, not dying for the least of us in the here and now.  "Are you believing this?"


That this was a reality before the days of Jesus' flesh is attested to by numerous mentions in Scripture.  Look at this one about Melchizedek when his superiority to the dying sons of Levi for receiving tithes is being explained.  It says, "...one of whom it is attested that he is living."  The writer(s) of Hebrews lived in the first Century, about two thousand years after Abrahams day.  The Greek is very clear.  So much so that some commentators point out it is an unusual construction and then don't tell you why.  They don't believe it.  It was a reliable attestation that Melchizedek was alive at the time of the writing of the N.T., so sure it was recorded thusly therein.

Paul said in various ways that his personal overcoming death was the one thing he was pursuing.  What God does is by faith.  We are in a time that is anywhere from within a couple of hundred years at most to even that we have already entered into the Millennium.  It is to be expected that there should be waves of power that are related to millions being resurrected.  There should be prodigies, precursors, who signal the approach of our great transition.  There should all the more be words, spirit and life words for ouf faith to accelerate our race against death, to reach the finish line before this last enemy can take us out.  The finishing work is faith in a finishing word.  The finishing is maturing, completing what the Author and Finisher of our faith began.

Look at the various parts of Scripture that have an acrostic form, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet sequentially begining a saying or a section.  This is not just the book of life, but the very letters can bring life.  The word is the seed body of the Spirit of life.  You can notice in your own and others the working of the cherebim to prevent access to the tree of life.  It is sometimes so impossible to just read the Scripture itself!  So many are repulsed, giving various reasons to accept their diversion from the path of life.  But O, to the overcomer..."To the conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the tree of life which is in the center of the paradise of God" (Rv 2:7)  Not something in death!  But access to those rising above death here!  Here is where the battle is and here is where the decisive victory has been displayed by Jesus Christ.  Here is from where we are to reign as Priests after the order of Melchizedek, from here into all the universe. (cf., Rm 4:13)  They need what man is becoming.

:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! The first thing the Spirit of the Lord ever spoke thru my mouth, completely bypassing my mind, was at a bible study about 22 years ago. What He said was, that we had a BETTER COVENANT than the men of old that lived to nearly a thousand years old, and that the completion of this inworking of the covenant within us, would be that we would not die as men, but overcome death while still in the body.

We don't overcome death by dying, we overcome it by NOT dying. When He rebuked them, saying, "Have I not said ye are gods and ye die like men?", He was rebuking them for the METHOD of dying, as in, like men, instead of like "gods". How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than this, that He lay down His life for His friends. Jesus said, speaking what He heard the Father speak, "No man takes my life, I lay it down willingly."

The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.

He was proved a Son of God that could not die by the resurrection, not because we have to die and resurrect to prove the same, but because in God's timing and plan, Christ living forever in the flesh of the last Adam would not be believing by faith for us. Also; generations having been shortened by sin, men would keep on dying before they really had time to fully realize, that HE WASN'T, and even then it wouldn't be revealed by faith, but by sight.

He DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.

The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place. Blessings....

[claypot]

Zeek, you wrote....

creating, imo; is moving from "death to life".

via faith


so do you see "life" as needing to be further created?? 

I say 'Amen'. It's a process, a journey from death to life. Zeek, you describe it perfectly.

Life does not need to be created because It is! It does come into a dead situation and take over though.

cp

Ok, but I still struggle with your posts,

are you on that journey from death to life now, (part death, part life?)

or are you alive now?


If you see yourself as still being created, then I would take it you see yourself not "alive" yet??



1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

Zeek, do you see that it is not a time thing here? I am being created and I am a finished creation. Can you understand this? It is hard for me to understand but I kind of see the truth of it.

cp

[Molly]

John 6:24-26...
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (AV)

John 6: 26...
And everyone who is living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon.  Are you believing this? (CLV)

The proof that many who have the esteem of their fellowmen do not believe this is that they have to add modifying words to the text to explain its supposed true meaning.  They insert the word "spiritual," a word Jesus used often enough that He could've certainly used it here if that was His intent.  But, He didn't.  He did NOT say: "Who is living and believing in Me shall never 'spiritually' die."  He was instead announcing that the door into not dying was opened.  Through His own death, burial and resurrection He secured an, "...open door, which no one is able to lock." (Rv 3:8)  This is into partaking of the Divine nature.  Rather than some distant and dubious "last day" in the maze of a religious riddle, Jesus opened it up, not dying for the least of us in the here and now.  "Are you believing this?"


That this was a reality before the days of Jesus' flesh is attested to by numerous mentions in Scripture.  Look at this one about Melchizedek when his superiority to the dying sons of Levi for receiving tithes is being explained.  It says, "...one of whom it is attested that he is living."  The writer(s) of Hebrews lived in the first Century, about two thousand years after Abrahams day.  The Greek is very clear.  So much so that some commentators point out it is an unusual construction and then don't tell you why.  They don't believe it.  It was a reliable attestation that Melchizedek was alive at the time of the writing of the N.T., so sure it was recorded thusly therein.

Paul said in various ways that his personal overcoming death was the one thing he was pursuing.  What God does is by faith.  We are in a time that is anywhere from within a couple of hundred years at most to even that we have already entered into the Millennium.  It is to be expected that there should be waves of power that are related to millions being resurrected.  There should be prodigies, precursors, who signal the approach of our great transition.  There should all the more be words, spirit and life words for ouf faith to accelerate our race against death, to reach the finish line before this last enemy can take us out.  The finishing work is faith in a finishing word.  The finishing is maturing, completing what the Author and Finisher of our faith began.

Look at the various parts of Scripture that have an acrostic form, the letters of the Hebrew alphabet sequentially begining a saying or a section.  This is not just the book of life, but the very letters can bring life.  The word is the seed body of the Spirit of life.  You can notice in your own and others the working of the cherebim to prevent access to the tree of life.  It is sometimes so impossible to just read the Scripture itself!  So many are repulsed, giving various reasons to accept their diversion from the path of life.  But O, to the overcomer..."To the conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the tree of life which is in the center of the paradise of God" (Rv 2:7)  Not something in death!  But access to those rising above death here!  Here is where the battle is and here is where the decisive victory has been displayed by Jesus Christ.  Here is from where we are to reign as Priests after the order of Melchizedek, from here into all the universe. (cf., Rm 4:13)  They need what man is becoming.

:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! The first thing the Spirit of the Lord ever spoke thru my mouth, completely bypassing my mind, was at a bible study about 22 years ago. What He said was, that we had a BETTER COVENANT than the men of old that lived to nearly a thousand years old, and that the completion of this inworking of the covenant within us, would be that we would not die as men, but overcome death while still in the body.

We don't overcome death by dying, we overcome it by NOT dying. When He rebuked them, saying, "Have I not said ye are gods and ye die like men?", He was rebuking them for the METHOD of dying, as in, like men, instead of like "gods". How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than this, that He lay down His life for His friends. Jesus said, speaking what He heard the Father speak, "No man takes my life, I lay it down willingly."

The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.

He was proved a Son of God that could not die by the resurrection, not because we have to die and resurrect to prove the same, but because in God's timing and plan, Christ living forever in the flesh of the last Adam would not be believing by faith for us. Also; generations having been shortened by sin, men would keep on dying before they really had time to fully realize, that HE WASN'T, and even then it wouldn't be revealed by faith, but by sight.

He DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.

The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place. Blessings....

wow!  :mshock:

[gregoryfl]

Remembering that spiritual realities are demonstrated by physical shadows, what in the physical can we all see that demonstrates how we are in life today and the process of being produced again? This might help nail down some understanding.

Ron

[Taffy]

He DIDN'T tell the Samaritan woman at the well, whose understanding was the same as Churchianity, ie. when I DIE, I'll be raised up in the last day, yes, that's right, go ahead and die, but rather, He spoke, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.
The first Adam was a living soul, ie. one that only has soulish life to impart, but the last ADAM, was a quickening (has life in itself already, and life to give) spirit. The fact that He was called an ADAM in the first place, denotes a CHANGE took place.

:HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Remembering that spiritual realities are demonstrated by physical shadows, what in the physical can we all see that demonstrates how we are in life today and the process of being produced again? This might help nail down some understanding.

Ron

Doubt it Ron..been saying it for yrs..falls on many deaf ears...but i agree wid ya  never the less :icon_flower:

[claypot]

Card, you wrote..

The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.

So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."

Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.

cp

[Molly]

Card, you wrote..

The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.

So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."

Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.

cp

yeah, now if people would just believe it, too.  They would stop trying to kill each other, and start honoring life.

[sheila]

  I was thinking about ..no man has ever hated his own flesh

  but cherishes it and feeds it.....and how He feeds us spiritually to grow...and brings the spirit of 'life" to us.

  but how He also..gives no such word of life to the things that
 are not of Him in us.but instructs us to put to death these thngs 1 John 2;8  ...but because the darkness is 'passing' and the true light is already shining...

  also the making of former things obsolete..


  I once heard a voice from heaven declare to me....

  "but man is Not responsible for sin"

He has taken the condemnation and  
  responsibility of our sinful state off of our shoulders...
  His Son bore that burden to the cross...and removed
  the accusation of it from us...also He has told us
  the creature was not subjected to vanity of it's own will..

  but by the will of Him who subjected it.

    sin will soon become obsolete..it is passing away

   He can declare us 'perfect' in our generation....[our begettal

  in Him]

   vessels of mercy fitted for glory[ that being the Glory of God]

   He feeds us,clothes us, visits us when we are sick or in prison
  Nurtures the new creature and delivers it

    making us free from 'vanity'  that which is vanishing...
    and delivering us into immortality
       

[claypot]

Card, you wrote..

The mount of transfiguration was to show that the Son had life (everlasting) in himself ALREADY, even as the Father has life in Himself, ie. He COULDN'T die as men die, but He could lay His life down. Life didn't come to Him AFTER He died, He ALREADY had it. And of this SAME FULLNESS, have we ALL received.

So what I needed to hear. That's it. That's why God held all the aces from the beginning. He came down to all the powers of death and sin and took them on. He said in effect "OK sin and death, you are attempting to kill all I make but behold, you can't. You can't kill life, you just can't. You can kill all the trappings but you can't kill me. Burn the table and you think you destroyed the table but you didn't, you just set it free to live in a more real way in another form."

Card, you have helped me see something, thanks.

cp

yeah, now if people would just believe it, too.  They would stop trying to kill each other, and start honoring life.

We will Molly, by God, we will! God is not done yet!

cp

[WhiteWings]

If you are in Christ, the sin is no longer of any affect . . therefore . . .you can walk SINLESS. 

Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a typical male excuse to me. :laughing7:

"It meant Nothing!"

"It means nothing. Buy some more the woman said.  :happy3: