Natural and Spiritual

[jabcat]

Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum.  I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual.  Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.

I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence.  I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body.  I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions.  I am comfortable with the thought of time.  L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts.  I don't even want to think of not living in time.  I don't want everything to be happening at once.  I want to hear each note progression in music.  One after the other, and that to me requires time.  One moment after another.  what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc.  I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God.  I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc.  Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever.  I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time.  Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.

I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles.  And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.

I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere.  Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.

HI SW.  Not everyone sees everything the same, we're not all in the same place...God has you where He wants you, and tomorrow you'll be where He wants you, and the next day....
Anyway, maybe just let slide what's not for you right now, and focus more on other things that are more fruitful for you at the time.  That's what I tend to do...I basically have been very little involved in the real discussion of this whole thread, just not my main focus to "struggle with" right now. I take pieces of it here and there, it's good and helpful, but I'm not "up to my eyeballs in it" right now.  On the other hand, other things have stimulated my interest, so I've contributed.  You have a lot to offer, but it may not be on every thread...but the forum as a whole...you know, the "many members" thing, each having our own function.  I'd hate for you to leave, but wherever God leads you will be right  :thumbsup:.

God's blessing, James.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The reason I emphasize the realm of spiritual understanding, is because I CAN'T DO OTHERWISE. This is the way He has brought me along, some 23 plus years now, and it's like an invisible "wall" almost is blocking my thinking in natural literal understanding of things.

And the "odd" thing is, that now when a natural parallel comes forth, it is not from looking at the natural first, but rather from having the spiritual revealed first, and then having that aha! moment over seeing the natural witness. It is like somewhere along the way, the revelation of things reversed without any conscious awareness of it on my part. There is a hidden principle in this, but I don't know what it is yet.

We are all a work in progress, there is no right or wrong as there are many rooms to be in, He is the master builder, and He is bringing all into His presence as He sees fit. Blessings.....

[Taffy]

Yo SW :icon_flower:

I come to understand in types and shadows, those things which literally shine forth a spiritual understanding.

No one dismisses the Literal....well not I anyway :icon_flower:


2Cr 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

2Cr 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.


First the Natural\literal which is the shadow of the reality to follow....so talking Spiritual things for me is where its AT.

Tis how I come to see such things .... :icon_flower:

BUT Please ,dont feel threatened by such talk ,,we  are  EACH where we are AT..... :icon_flower:

cos for sure when I first heard a few folk talk such a way...MAN, were they way out there..MYSTICS, speaking things which didnt ADD up. :icon_flower:..Freaks for sure :icon_flower:

Blessings
T

[Zeek]

Hi T, glad to see ya back posting.

Do you think that the "spiritual" awakening that is happening in you, me and others; is going on even with those who don't know or agree with the "bible story", or who don't "claim/believe in Christ's death, burial, resurrection".  Is "Christ consciousness" awakening in many, despite beliefs??   

For example, there is a lot of "new age guru's" out there or "spiritual teachers" that are teaching a death to the "ego", a purfication by fire, and a release of the inner man, (joy, peace, love, light).  Even Eckart Tolle's new book is a book of a "new heaven and earth", based on becoming aware of "Christ" who he calls "consciousness/presence", and the release of love, peace, joy.

what ya think??

[Zeek]

I read this article the other day, and thot it was interesting.  Not sure I agree, but contemplating.

"I don't care who you are - you are destined to experience eschatology, for it was God's purpose to give himself to you and God is able to fulfill his purpose. He created you to radiate his glory and be the express image of his person.

You cannot stop God from fulfilling his purpose, but you will not arrive at that moment called eschatology until you have played all the parts - be they good, bad, or indifferent. So I say, envy no one. It doesn't matter what they have done, are doing, or will do; do not envy or pity anyone, for you have either already played that part, or you will.

The Bible records every conceivable evil in the world that man could do to man and describes it openly. And you have played, or will play, every part before the last days come upon you, and in that day, events of scripture will unfold in you in a dramatic form imaginable. You will be possessed and find yourself the center of the entire Bible. As scripture reveals itself in you, you will discover from experience that you are the Lord Jesus Christ. And when you share your experience with others, they will question how a little nonentity who suffers and has nothing the world he would brag about could dare to make this bold assumption. They will think of you as blaspheming God, just as they accused him, claiming he blasphemed by stating, I and my Father are one, that when you see me you have seen the Father; that if you really knew me, you would know my Father also, but you know neither me nor my Father, for my Father is playing the part that I am.

And then one night in vision, I fulfilled the 42nd Psalm. That night, in vision I found myself leading an enormous crowd in gay procession to the house of God as a voice rang out: "And God walks with them." A woman at my side asked the voice: "If God walks with us, where is he?" and the voice replied: "At your side." Turning to her left she looked into my face and, laughing hysterically said, "What, Neville is God?" and the voice replied, "Yes, in the act of waking." Then the voice spoke in the depths of my soul, saying: "I laid myself down within you to sleep and as I slept I dreamed a dream. I dreamed..." and, knowing exactly what he was going to say, I became so excited I actually nailed myself upon this body in the same manner tradition tells us he was nailed upon the cross, but it was not a painful experience. Six vortices, each an ecstatic, joyful feeling, hold me here.

Now I know that no man took (or takes) my life, for I lay it down myself. I know I have the power to lay it down and the power to take it up again; for I, God the Father, deliberately took upon myself this limitation upon myself. When I heard the voice that night say: "I laid myself down within you to sleep, and as I slept I dreamed a dream," I knew he was telling me that he was I and when the dream is over and he awakes I would be He, radiating His glory and bearing the express image of His person.

This is not for me alone, but for all. Listen to the words: "The glory that thou gavest me I would give to them that they may be one even as we are one." I have told you of the glory that is now mine, thereby giving you the glory that we may be one. I in you and thou in me, that we may be made perfectly one. I have made God's name known to you and I will make it known that the love by which I am loved may be in you. Not less love, but the same love, so that the whole may become one love!

In the end everyone will experience the whole Bible and tell it as I am telling it now. A few will believe but the majority will not. That's all right, for all of the tribulations of human experience must be fulfilled, with no omissions. Today you may be one of the so-called beautiful people, possessing inherited wealth. You may be one of the ten best dressed women and spend a quarter of a million dollars on clothes to create the part you are playing. But tomorrow, even if you haven't played it, you may play the part of a scrub woman, for every part must be played before you can arrive at eschatology.

Having played every part as recorded in scripture, when I aw a man betray me I knew I had played the part of the betrayer, for I have fulfilled scripture.

Everyone must play it all, if not on this stage, then on another, for when you leave this set on the stage of life, although you are no longer seen by the audience here, you are not dead, but have entered another stage in the great theater called life, to continue the work that is still to be done in you, until all of the parts in the play have been played.

Eschatology is not the end of the earth, but the end of human history and the beginning of eternal salvation. It is the abrupt cleavage between this world and the transcendental world of God. It is your entrance into an entirely different world where you radiate God's glory which you create by your very being, for you are now the Father. God the Father created you to radiate his glory and bear the express image of His person in that world. I cannot describe it because there are no images on earth to aid me. Life there is entirely different from this one, for there you are not some little pygmy, but God Himself, completely equipped to do it all!

So if you condemn someone, the chances are you have not played the part he is playing, but will play it tomorrow, for condemnation simply moves you closer to the fulfillment of what you have condemned. Let no one judge you and don't judge another, for you know too much now. It is my hope you have played all the parts and that tonight your eschatology will come. Sacred history has been brought to its climax, and fulfilled in Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ in you is the one who does it.

Addressing God as, "O righteous Father", he [John] said: "I in them and thou in me." Now, if God the Father is in me, and I am in you, is He not in you also? Yes, God the Father is in you and Christ, his God's creative power, is in you as the pattern man who must fulfill scripture. The plan was made for, and erupts in Christ - the Christ in you. He is your hope of glory, for you are the one spoken of as Abraham.

In the state called Abraham the promise was made that you would have a child. So what part are you playing then the child appears? Abraham looked up to see three men standing before him. He thought they were messengers of the Lord for he did not realize he was the Lord himself. It is said he did not see them approaching they came so suddenly. And when the prophecy is fulfilled your attention is diverted for a few seconds by an unearthly wind, and when you look back those that you did not see approaching are sitting where your body was, for your body is now gone. The body has been removed because you only wore it for a little while, but while you wore it something happened in you.

Now a lady wrote this past week, saying: "In my dream I was shoveling dirt. Although it seemed as though I was digging in the earth, I knew I was digging in my own brain." That's a lovely vision and a true one. Everything takes place in the brain - the earth, for man is made up of the dust of the earth, so her vision was perfect. She was digging in her own brain. For she is on the verge, although I cannot tell her the day or the hour, for only the Father in her knows.

If you will read the Book of John - which differs somewhat from the synoptics, you will discover that John pinpoints the day the vision will occur, stating that the birth, followed by the resurrection, will take place between 6:00 P.M. on Sunday and 6:00 P.M. on Monday. That is when it happened in me. I went to bed on Sunday evening about 11:00 P.M. and awoke, was born from above, and resurrected at 4:00 A.M. on Monday morning. You will follow the same pattern. Having entered the world before the coming of Jehovah, you entered the world from B.C. and when it happens your world turns into the year of the Lord, A.D.

The Old Testament is crowded with eschatology - the coming of Jehovah. He came but was not recognized because it was not what people expected. But He is coming in your world and you are going to fulfill scripture. When you realize you are the central character of the Bible, you are going to feel so wonderful. I cannot tell you the thrill that is in store for you when you experience everything written there. Even though it has happened to others, scripture is all about you, because in the end there is no other. In that day, you will know that I dwell in them and thou in me, and we, all gathered together are perfect in that one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one God and Father of all.

You will not have a different son from the speaker. We have the same son. When I tell this to priests, rabbis and ministers, they throw up their hands in holy horror and claim I have taken all of their religion from them. What they have been taught is true on a certain level of awareness, but I am speaking from experience. I have experienced scripture. I know it is true, but it is not what the world teaches.

Jesus Christ is God the Father and Jesus Christ is in you. One day you will find out that you are God the father and because you are you will produce a son to bear witness to that fact. Now no one knows who God the Father is, except his son who comes into your world to reveal you to yourself. And when he appears you don't have to ask him who he is; the minute you see him you know exactly who he is and he knows who you are. There is no uncertainty as to this relationship. To know that you are God the Father, yet while you remain here in the world of Caesar you will continue to wear the little garment that suffers, as all garments do. But after you have experienced eschatology and leave this little garment behind, you will no longer be restored to life, for you will have come to the end of human history.



from here:

http://realneville.com/txt/eschatology.htm

[Taffy]

Hi T, glad to see ya back posting.

Do you think that the "spiritual" awakening that is happening in you, me and others; is going on even with those who don't know or agree with the "bible story", or who don't "claim/believe in Christ's death, burial, resurrection".  Is "Christ consciousness" awakening in many, despite beliefs??   

For example, there is a lot of "new age guru's" out there or "spiritual teachers" that are teaching a death to the "ego", a purfication by fire, and a release of the inner man, (joy, peace, love, light).  Even Eckart Tolle's new book is a book of a "new heaven and earth", based on becoming aware of "Christ" who he calls "consciousness/presence", and the release of love, peace, joy.

what ya think??

Ya Know Bro, ya More aware of what others are writing and Doing than I.... :icon_flower:

Ya mention Gurus , Ok  but only in brief, so Im getting a Picture , BUT life is THROUGH but ONE, for me ,theres no getting away from that, but MAYBE, ya dindt mention that was the premise they spoke from... :dontknow:..beliefs? would that be NOT knowing who Christ Is...? expound some bro, as I know ya mentioned something similar before :icon_flower:..where do such folk base this foundation?

[Zeek]

Ive been thinking lately that I'm not sure I belong on this forum.  I'm just at a different place than most of you, neither is necessarily wrong but I get really uncomfortable when you make EVERYTHING apply to ONLY the spiritual.  Sometimes I see someone say they believe in an age where Christ (through His body of overcomers) rules and brings in the rest of His harvests, but mostly I see where all of this is made to be just some precursor to some ultra spiritual existence.

I am not sure I want to live in that kind of existence.  I think this universe is awesome and since so much has been unexplored, and scientists say it is still expanding, I want to find out about THIS earth, this universe while in some semblance of a material form/body.  I say amen to a body with no pain but I'm not sure I want absolutely no kind of restrictions.  I am comfortable with the thought of time.  L. Ray Smith has an audio about time that is very similar to my thoughts.  I don't even want to think of not living in time.  I don't want everything to be happening at once.  I want to hear each note progression in music.  One after the other, and that to me requires time.  One moment after another.  what has ended is the past and the next moment will be the future, I don't want to know the future, not when I know there will be no death or sorrow or aging, etc.  I like the idea that there are things to do and explore and learn, and not knowing it all at once, I want to leave that to God.  I never want to reach the point where nothing is left to learn or enjoy, etc.  Though star trek can be hokey, I recall an episode from The New Generation with Q, who was immortal who sought to wink out of existence because he was bored or whatever.  I don't think one can even remotely describe an existence outside of time without some references to time.  Perhaps it is just a matter of differences in definitions, I don't know.

I still maintain that since there were literal manifestations of Passover and Pentecost, there will be a literal earthly manifestation of Tabernacles.  And though Revelation certainly can be a description of what transformations a believer goes through within his understanding and journey to see Christ, I still see literal applications, and beyond what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. or whenever it was.

I guess I just get frustrated, I don't belong with the orthodox churchmembers, I don't seem to belong anywhere.  Maybe it's just my mood this last year, perhaps it will get better in the next year.

Hi,

i've hung out with those here who see things in the "spiritual" or what i would better describe as an "inner" application for awhile.  I would for so long say, "but wait, Paul was talking about two groups of people; an us versus them; and yet you are applying it inward, saying an "us and a them" in me; a "tare and a wheat" in one person.  That's not how Paul described it.  And yet, something in me would say, "I can see what u guys mean though".  It wasn't until for me, by looking at a preterist view was this more clear.  Imo, the "us" versus "them" described by Jesus, and Paul etc. was real, it was a true application; and it was worked out "in that generation".  

So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"?  And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense.  It is now being "fulfilled" in ME.  The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.  

don't know if this makes sense, but just wanted to share; if i take a "futuristic" view point, in that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled (as in L Ray teaches), I have a hard time agreeing with the "inner" application.  

[Tony N]

Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.

But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.

Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:

Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?

Did ALL those things occur? No.

And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."

All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.

I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?

[Zeek]

Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.

But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.

Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:

Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?

Did ALL those things occur? No.

And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."

All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.

I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?

Thanks Tony,

Quite a journey we are all on, and i am so thankful that LOVE is being revealed more and more in my heart. 

blessings

[Molly]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

[Zeek]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

The power of sin is the law.  Is it the law  system that you see still growing side by side?  or what is the other system?

[claypot]

Zeek, you wrote....

So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"?  And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense.  It is now being "fulfilled" in ME.  The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.  

This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.

I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.

cp

[Molly]

Zeek, you wrote....

So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"?  And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense.  It is now being "fulfilled" in ME.  The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.  

This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.

I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.

cp

But, I could say the same thing about the world.  If the Bible isn't explaining to me what is going on in the world right now, then it is irrelevant to me.   If I can't look at the world and say, the Bible explains this--then it is meaningless to me, and I cannot be comforted that God is in control--because to my carnal eyes, things do not look very good.

[Zeek]

Zeek, you wrote....

So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"?  And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense.  It is now being "fulfilled" in ME.  The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.  

This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.

I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.

cp

Well, in the first century, Paul was imo, "spiritual" not "natural" as the Spirit was in him; yet I believe at that time he was comparing himself (mind of Christ) to those stuck in the law system (carnal mind).  He saw himself as "Isaac" (Galatians 4) not "Ishmael", but saw "Ishmaels" out there in the world, who would undergo destruction soon.  

So, I think there is a huge leap made to apply all scripture "inward" if we are in the same "age" as Paul.  

I'm not good at explaining this, hope makes sense.

[Taffy]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

[ScarletWren]

Hi all,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I won't leave, but I will share less I think.

Nathan, the curse WILL be removed from this earth and universe and it will be even more amazing to explore its wonders.

I disagree that we are RETURNING to the spirit realm.  First the natural, THEN the spiritual (with the exception of The Father out of whom is everything and Christ, who is the Word)  I don't see that OUR spirit was breathed into the man.  God's spirit was the animating force to make Adam a living soul.  That is the spirit that returns to God at our physical death.  As I see it, the first part of the creation account was prophetical.  How could Adam have been given dominion over the earth when he was virtually an infant with no knowledge of good and evil?  And AFTER he gained that knowledge, well we've seen how much our 'dominion' is GOOD for the earth, especially the human race and what exactly do we have dominion over?  Animals?  well to a minor extent perhaps, weather? each other?  I don't see it.  When we are complete in Him, in our immortal bodies, THEN we will have the dominion prophesied in the first account.  THEN we will be finished in HIS image.  HE IS creating man now, not recreating Him.  That's how I see this.  

I'm not leaving at this time.  You guys are all great.  I see a fusion of the two, physical and spiritual, and it will be awesome.

[claypot]

Dear Zeek,
There are spiritual applications to things Scriptural.

But the problem with preterism and the Lord returning is that they often refuse to look at the whole picture.

Jesus did not only say that this generation would see my return. He said:

Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
What are the "all things" that should be occurring?

Did ALL those things occur? No.

And what about Mark's account?
Mark 13:30 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by until the time when all these things may be occurring."

All what things? Did all those things happen in 70 A.D.? No. Absolutely no, they did not.

I'm cool with you if you want to take it all spiritually, though I believe that is mistaken. You are no less a brother to me. Dig?

  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {with...: or, with a trumpet, and a great voice}  32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:  33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. {it: or, he}  34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sun darkened moon no light stars falling = man in carnal condition.

Son of man coming = God waking people up.

When you see.... it is near = People who experience salvation (a waking up).

This generation will not pass until all fullfilled = this work will not be stopped until man is made in the image of God.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud.

cp

[Molly]

Hi all,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I won't leave, but I will share less I think.

Nathan, the curse WILL be removed from this earth and universe and it will be even more amazing to explore its wonders.

I disagree that we are RETURNING to the spirit realm.  First the natural, THEN the spiritual (with the exception of The Father out of whom is everything and Christ, who is the Word)  I don't see that OUR spirit was breathed into the man.  God's spirit was the animating force to make Adam a living soul.  That is the spirit that returns to God at our physical death.  As I see it, the first part of the creation account was prophetical.  How could Adam have been given dominion over the earth when he was virtually an infant with no knowledge of good and evil?  And AFTER he gained that knowledge, well we've seen how much our 'dominion' is GOOD for the earth, especially the human race and what exactly do we have dominion over?  Animals?  well to a minor extent perhaps, weather? each other?  I don't see it.  When we are complete in Him, in our immortal bodies, THEN we will have the dominion prophesied in the first account.  THEN we will be finished in HIS image.  HE IS creating man now, not recreating Him.  That's how I see this.  

I'm not leaving at this time.  You guys are all great.  I see a fusion of the two, physical and spiritual, and it will be awesome.

The way I see it, Scarletwren, is that the spiritual shows us the truth about the natural realm.  There is a truth that we have lost in the fall from the garden of God.  He is restoring us to that truth.

So if I know nothing about quantum mechanics, for instance, or how to manipulate the reality of that world, that does not mean that it does not exist.  It does exist outside of my awareness.  But, once I become aware of it, then what I thought was the natural takes on a whole new meaning for me, with a lot more depth.

Anyway, I agree with what you say pretty much.  He didn't mess up when he gave us the physical beauty of this world--he knows what we like, and he's not going to take it away--just give it to us in more abundance.  The meek will inherit the earth.

We do have dominion now (not over each other--that should never be), we just don't know how to use it properly yet, because of the deception.

[Zeek]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?  

[Molly]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

I was just searching for that missing generation.  It just came to my attention.  And, I was trying to count in various places, but then I gave up.  What is it? lol

[Molly]

Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?

I go back and forth on that.  Paul likens himself almost to a midwife--one who helps others give birth.  This would put him in the category of angel--ministering to those who shall be heirs of salvation [Heb 1].  It's almost as if the body won't fully manifest until every part (person) is present--and we are waiting for that.

[claypot]

Zeek, you wrote....

So if preterism is/was true, which I personally think it did happen "then", my next question was well then "what application does the bible have to me now"?  And that is where this "inner/spiritual" application now makes sense.  It is now being "fulfilled" in ME.  The redemptive story is happening "in me" spiritually.  

This is exactly where it's at for me too Zeek. If God isn't explaining what is going on in me right now then the words of Scripture are mostly irrelevant to me. Or if Scripture is not explaining something that is occuring right now then, again, it would be meaningless to me. The only way I can see that Scripture can be a reality now is if it is happening within all of us right now. I do see it acted out physically. I think this is the whole reason for the physical, it is an outward revelation of an inward reality. All of the physical is this so the physical is very important.

I really don't see why there has to be a problem here.

cp

But, I could say the same thing about the world.  If the Bible isn't explaining to me what is going on in the world right now, then it is irrelevant to me.   If I can't look at the world and say, the Bible explains this--then it is meaningless to me, and I cannot be comforted that God is in control--because to my carnal eyes, things do not look very good.

Molly you also just wrote...

The way I see it, Scarletwren, is that the spiritual shows us the truth about the natural realm.

I see what you are saying I think and I would agree. I never thought of that, that the spiritual helps us make sense of the physical. I guess I see people so naturally saturated with the physical that they don't need help to see it but those that 'see' the spiritual, the real home of God Himself, seem much more rare.

Also what is going on in the world right now does affect me for sure but to tell you the truth even world events don't much interest me until they become much more intimate with me. Until a enemy soldier walks up to my house and starts causing trouble I feel kind of removed from what the newpapers say. But when the enemy comes into my household then the major relevance sets in.

cp

[Taffy]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?  

wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

I was just searching for that missing generation.  It just came to my attention.  And, I was trying to count in various places, but then I gave up.  What is it? lol

Tis the 42nd Generation....tis what it is :icon_flower:

read this yrs back...BB makes some very good( IN WILLIE H, not Narnian) Notations :icon_flower:

http://www.freewebs.com/billmcmurdo/42ndgeneration.htm :icon_flower:

[Zeek]

Why is the only choice a past and a future one?

Instead of saying it already happened, or it will happen--what about it IS happening?

If two systems are growing up side by side, then it started then, is still ongoing, and will come to an end at some point.

Paul told us it was starting in his time.   We know it is going on now.  And we know it will come to an end.

Doesn't that make more sense?

And, I mean this literally, not spiritually, although it expresses itself in a spiritual warfare.

gee I was Only reading Tonys Post and this thread took off again :icon_flower:

Indeed Molly ...we are NOW IN The Generation of Christ, His off spring ( the missing generation-Math 1) ...again I see the The generation of the Child , moving to that of a son.

IE generation TO generation. :icon_flower:

Hi T, would you say that during Paul's time on earth; he was also in the Generation of Christ?  

wel Indeed Z....I dont see the generation as some 20 yr span we call one today....Being BORN from**above** , a son or heir is HIS Generation , so Yeah.... :icon_flower:

so do you think there was an "us versus them" in the time of Paul?


and if so, do you still see an us versus them today??



I believe Paul definitely preached an us versus them, and it being a  fearful thing to fall away.  An upcoming destruction upon those who denied Christ.