A friend who read these two articles on my blog suggested I post them here for others to read. Hope you also enjoy them.
The Potter and His Clay
Jeremiah 18:1-17
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter:
A funny thing about clay is that it has a memory of its own and always wants to return to its clay form. So when one is fashioning a vase the clay tries to fall back into its natural form. Thus being marred in the hands of the potter. It is NOT the potter who mars the clay in his hands, it is the clay trying to return to clay that mars itself. The potter wants to make a vase, the clay wants to return to its natural form.
So if we look at man who is formed from the dust of the earth and placed into the garden to be fashioned into Gods image and likeness, we can see the clay in the potters hands.
Now through mans own disobedience man marred himself in the potters hands and returned to the dust/clay from whence he was taken. Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.
Now lets look at those same scriptures out of the Septuagint.
18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:
And we know that Adam fell by disobedience. Thus the potter did NOT mar the vessel
the vessel fell and marred itself.
so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Thus the potter takes up the same clay and makes a NEW vessel out of it.
We are a NEW creation in Christ Jesus.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Thus proving that all vessels pass through the fire, for without the baking process the vessel will always retain it's own will and turn to it's old form.
El Elyon
The different views of God shown in scripture.
The view of God is that of the MOST HIGH God or EL Elyon, is the highest view of God recorded in scripture, it shows forth His eternal (as in without beginning and without end) nature. Everything in this view stems from His infinite being where all things are done by Him and through Him. Everything starts with Him and ends with Him.
But that is not the only view of God recorded in scripture, we also have Elohim, Jehovah, El Shaddai (God Almighty), Adonai (Lord), El Olam (God of the ages) and Jehovah Sabaoth (Lord of Hosts).
When God deals with man in time He expresses Himself by that name, which is El Olam (God of the ages). This view is how God deals with man throughout every age, and He does not change from this view until man is outside of time or time is no more.
In each view we see a different aspect of who God is, in one we see God in His creative works, in another we see God in covenant to man etc.
In each of these views we see something expressed of El Elyon (Most High God) because El Elyon is the overshadowing principal of all other views of God. For it shows God before the beginning and it shows Him after all time comes to an end. It show Him before creation, before covenant, before the different ages etc. It is the highest view or aspect of God, and it shows forth LIFE which is much more then the LIFE we experience in the created LIFE, in the covenant LIFE, in the LIFE of the ages etc. Each aspect of God shown throughout scripture bring us more fully into the LIFE of the MOST HIGH GOD, EL ELYON.
God bless
would it be fair to say...an unseen force[grav[e]ity had
anything to do with the clay falling?
Quote from: sheila on March 19, 2009, 01:57:41 AM
would it be fair to say...an unseen force[grav[e]ity had
anything to do with the clay falling?
through deception yes, but the clay fell by it won disobedience.
:cloud9: Good posts pneuma! :thumbsup:
My Septuagint says in Jeremiah that it "failed". I'm using the Apostolic Bible Polygot.
Paul
I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.
I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.
I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.
Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 02:50:06 PM
I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.
I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.
I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.
Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.
cp
Hi Clay not time to post my thoughts on God creating evil right now but will later today.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 03:41:29 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 02:50:06 PM
I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.
I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.
I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.
Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.
cp
Hi Clay not time to post my thoughts on God creating evil right now but will later today.
God bless
Good, before you start yelling at me (just kidding Brother!) but I do want to say I don't think God creates evil as we traditionally think of creating. I might say that God 'creates' evil just because He set all in motion knowing what would happen. He gave people the abilities and opportunities to do evil. He gives life to all to perform.
I see absolutely no darkness in God. Evil, IMO, can only exist when something is created. When something is created there seems to be its opposite looming in the shadows. Heaven is when this opposite ceases to exist. Could it be evil only exists where flesh or a fleshly mindset is present?
cp
well the clay was created by God from dirt so naturally it would ""fall"" and God certianly KNEW the characteristics (sp) of the clay.
very good topic, may i borrow it? :happy3:
as an artist i love this topic, and the part about the clay needing to go thru the furnace is spot on.
also the clay must be ground to powder and mixed with living water made a new lump and glazed in the fire, very awsome colors. :Yesss:
chuckt
Good stuff Chuck. You say much in few words.
cp
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
Quote from: chuckt on March 19, 2009, 05:37:57 PM
well the clay was created by God from dirt so naturally it would ""fall"" and God certianly KNEW the characteristics (sp) of the clay.
very good topic, may i borrow it? :happy3:
as an artist i love this topic, and the part about the clay needing to go thru the furnace is spot on.
also the clay must be ground to powder and mixed with living water made a new lump and glazed in the fire, very awsome colors. :Yesss:
chuckt
Feel free to use anything I post bro.
This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter an His clay.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? 15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".
So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
Or how does God create evil?
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
Do we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Septuagint
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?
You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
God bless
Well there is another possibility for evil.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In any case, we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.
Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess. Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into. If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.
Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.
Otherwise I see it like this.
I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good, but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?
No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.
In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.
That was one of the critisism over the song "What if God was one of us" Perhaps this existance has one end "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Wow good find pneuma! I think that verse is the best evidence I have seen that suggests evil is the absence of good (God). You may even change my thinking on the "problem of evil".
How do you fit God is the one who "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph 1:11) in with this?
Effectively God is working evil (which is part of the "all things"), by removing his presence, which allows the entity (humans, Satan, whatever) to do evil. Yet God knows already what that entity would do and has incorporated it into His plan. He is working it (evil) after the counsel of his own will, by turning his back. Yet He is not the one who does evil, for God can do know evil and tempts no one.
Indirectly, of course, He is the cause of all, but not directly.
Your thoughts?
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2009, 09:49:25 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Wow good find pneuma! I think that verse is the best evidence I have seen that suggests evil is the absence of good (God). You may even change my thinking on the "problem of evil".
How do you fit God is the one who "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph 1:11) in with this?
Effectively God is working evil (which is part of the "all things"), by removing his presence, which allows the entity (humans, Satan, whatever) to do evil. Yet God knows already what that entity would do and has incorporated it into His plan. He is working it (evil) after the counsel of his own will, by turning his back. Yet He is not the one who does evil, for God can do know evil and tempts no one.
Indirectly, of course, He is the cause of all, but not directly.
Your thoughts?
Hi Leg, the aspect of God that worketh all thngs after His own will is the El Elyon aspect of God that is outside of time.
While time exist God deals with us as El Olam (God of the ages).
Thus evil is in this world of time because this world of time is NOT El Elyons world.
Jesus said I am NOT of this WORLD, Jesus was of the WORLD of El Elyon the world without time, where all things work after the counsel of His will.
Thus Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come thy WILL BE DONE on EARTH like it is in HEAVEN.
Not everything in this world of time is after His WILL, else Jesus taught us to pray a redundent prayer.
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
Well there is another possibility for evil.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In any case, we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.
Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess. Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into. If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.
Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.
Otherwise I see it like this.
I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good, but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?
No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.
In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.
That was one of the critisism over the song "What if God was one of us" Perhaps this existance has one end "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.
Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to
His earthly life.
I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.
Just some things to think about.
Quote
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can :bigGrin:
The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will". It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world". The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan. That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil
always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin. The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will. This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good
and evil.
Doc, thats one of the aspects I am getting at when I say that God cannot do everything. But that knowledge has no bearing on Gods sovereignty, nor does it imply that anything can become greater than God.
It is one of the paradoxtype arguments people get into when you hear "God is all powerful and can do anything" But then we hear "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it" Then out comes all the intellectuals to dance around the question. When the answer is NO and the answer is also irrevalent at the same time.
Man will not become greater that the state of being God is in right now, no matter what rock God can;t make.
When it is said Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, is that fact a matter of Gods choice, or just the very state of existence that cannot be changed by God in the first place?
I believe that is the way it is and even God cannot change it.
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2009, 10:27:56 PM
Quote
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can :bigGrin:
The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will". It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world". The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan. That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin. The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will. This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin
Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.
Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 10:28:28 PM
Doc, thats one of the aspects I am getting at when I say that God cannot do everything. But that knowledge has no bearing on Gods sovereignty, nor does it imply that anything can become greater than God.
It is one of the paradoxtype arguments people get into when you hear "God is all powerful and can do anything" But then we hear "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it" Then out comes all the intellectuals to dance around the question. When the answer is NO and the answer is also irrevalent at the same time.
Man will not become greater that the state of being God is in right now, no matter what rock God can;t make.
When it is said Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, is that fact a matter of Gods choice, or just the very state of existence that cannot be changed by God in the first place?
I believe that is the way it is and even God cannot change it.
I hear you, Paul. That was actually a discussion I got into with an atheist. I went through the scripture, and I couldn't find any description of God that actually identified Him in the original language as the equivalent of our word "omnipotent". The descriptions of Him that are typically translated as "omnipotent" are more accurately along the lines of the sense of "highest authority". In other words, the impression that I was getting from the word study was that Father God (El Elyon) has far more power and authority than any other "being" in the universe, but that descriptor does not quite translate to what we think of as "omnipotent".
But this is probably a topic for PM. I don't want to derail the thread or cause people to start getting their stakes and firewood ready. :msealed:
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2009, 10:27:56 PM
Quote
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can :bigGrin:
The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will". It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world". The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan. That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin. The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will. This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin
Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.
Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.
Ah ok. Thanks for the insight!
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
Well there is another possibility for evil.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In any case, we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.
Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess. Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into. If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.
Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.
Otherwise I see it like this.
I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good, but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?
No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.
In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.
That was one of the critisism over the song "What if God was one of us" Perhaps this existance has one end "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.
Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.
I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.
Just some things to think about.
Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well? I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours. I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before. I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
Here is what I believe, I don't believe God had to plan evil, sin, disobedience, because God already knew that it had to a part of existance. Unless of course God can be surprised.
What he may have planned was giving us a gift of life, knowing the path that "must" happen, "knowing" we will end up in perfection. So his wisdom planned for all the things that had to happen once the process of life started.
There is nothing that will stop that process. I think why we read of God being grieved is because God empathizes with what we are going through and knows its the only way, even he could not make a plan for our perfection any other way. Otherwise a God of love would have done so.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2009, 10:27:56 PM
Quote
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can :bigGrin:
The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will". It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world". The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan. That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin. The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will. This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin
Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.
Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.
Not that I disagree with you, but some thoughts come to mind. What was Adam's purpose then, since God foreknew what would happen? The other thought I have is, when man through disobedience
brought evil into the world that seems to me to imply that evil "pre-existed" somewhere to be able to be brought in to the world...
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
Well there is another possibility for evil.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In any case, we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.
Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess. Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into. If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.
Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.
Otherwise I see it like this.
I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good, but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?
No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.
In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.
That was one of the critisism over the song "What if God was one of us" Perhaps this existance has one end "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.
Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.
I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.
Just some things to think about.
Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well? I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours. I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before. I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.
Sure, come on out, the view is great.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:52:46 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2009, 10:27:56 PM
Quote
From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:
Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can :bigGrin:
The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will". It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world". The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan. That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin. The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will. This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin
Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.
Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.
Not that I disagree with you, but some thoughts come to mind. What was Adam's purpose then, since God foreknew what would happen? The other thought I have is, when man through disobedience brought evil into the world that seems to me to imply that evil "pre-existed" somewhere to be able to be brought in to the world...
God knowing what would happen and planning it to happen are world apart imo Doc, I can know that if a child take a car they are going to get into an accident, but just because I know that does not mean I planned for the child to take the car and get into the accident.
I agree sin existed before it was brought into the world Doc, as satan fell a long time before Adam did.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 10:52:41 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.
Here is what I believe, I don't believe God had to plan evil, sin, disobedience, because God already knew that it had to a part of existance. Unless of course God can be surprised.
What he may have planned was giving us a gift of life, knowing the path that "must" happen, "knowing" we will end up in perfection. So his wisdom planned for all the things that had to happen once the process of life started.
There is nothing that will stop that process. I think why we read of God being grieved is because God empathizes with what we are going through and knows its the only way, even he could not make a plan for our perfection any other way. Otherwise a God of love would have done so.
Hi Paul a lot of people see it that way bro, But I will have to respectfully disagree
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
Well there is another possibility for evil.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In any case, we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.
Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess. Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into. If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.
Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.
Otherwise I see it like this.
I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good, but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?
No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.
In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.
That was one of the critisism over the song "What if God was one of us" Perhaps this existance has one end "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.
Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.
I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.
Just some things to think about.
Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well? I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours. I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before. I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.
Hi guys here is something you might want to look at in your study
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind.
Not saying this is so just a thought.
That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as the adversary (Satan).
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 11:37:01 PM
That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as the adversary (Satan).
Doc I don't disagree with that senerio, I just also see satan as a spirit being.
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.
Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen, but did not design it to happen directly by his hand? Was God caught off gaurd? Not sure what your getting at here.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
:cloud9: Interesting then that He showed Moses His backside when He asked to see His glory? Blessings...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.
Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen, but did not design it to happen directly by his hand? Was God caught off gaurd? Not sure what your getting at here.
Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.
No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:05:02 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
:cloud9: Interesting then that He showed Moses His backside when He asked to see His glory? Blessings...
Ya but remmeber that was BEFORE Moses had curcumsised his SON.
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:51:29 PM
I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before. I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.
:cloud9: I believe that too, Nathan. He told me when I first came to the Lord and I was starting to have those "aha" moments, that I wasn't really learning anything, I WAS REMEMBERING IT. Of course, at the time, I had to keep that to myself primarily in order to avoid the heretic BarBQ :mshock: Now I don't much care anymore, I'm like, "What? You forgot the cole slaw?" :laughing7: Blessings.....
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 12:07:20 AM
Ya but remmeber that was BEFORE Moses had curcumsised his SON.
:cloud9: Cool, ok, I HEARD that..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 12:05:10 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.
Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen, but did not design it to happen directly by his hand? Was God caught off gaurd? Not sure what your getting at here.
Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.
No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.
We are not too far off then concerning that then.
I just do not see the righteousness in creating us, knowing what we would do and the misery we would cause with the ability to do it another way in an instant.
What ever our mistakes rightly are, and where that blame is rightly made, if it was possible to create us and perfect us without that, then thats what should have happened and while some could say Gods ways aren't my ways. Perhaps then humanity is doomed to serve a monster after all.
Whether God has the right to do whatever he wants doesn't mean a loving God would do such a thing if it could be prevented. Most arguments center around free will being a gift, because then we are individuals and choose and rightly love God, but then we are back to square one. If God can do anything then he could of perfected us with those abilities without all of the misery it takes to learn what it is.
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.
:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:42:38 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 11:37:01 PM
That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as the adversary (Satan).
Doc I don't disagree with that senerio, I just also see satan as a spirit being.
Makes sense to me, since we are both (or still dwell in) spirit and flesh.
QuoteCould it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought
:icon_flower: like wise Bro...a Going HOME :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:19:32 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.
:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....
Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?
Quote from: Doc on March 20, 2009, 12:29:38 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:19:32 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.
:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....
Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?
This is so interesting . . . in Revelation when it speaks of the seven stars being the angels of the seven churches. . .it's referring to us there . .so why would that not also fit with this setting also . . .very interesting.
Quote from: Doc on March 20, 2009, 12:29:38 AM
Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?
:cloud9: Well, I had an interesting dream once, that I think He was using to get me to see this. It was one scene really. I saw an angel about 8 ft tall with wings, standing next to me and it had fire red hair. It told me an instruction from the Lord. I looked closer at the angel and thought there was something about it that looked familiar. Then I realized, it was "ME", IF I had red hair and was 8 ft. tall. :mshock: Blessings.....
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 20, 2009, 12:17:35 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 12:05:10 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM
QuoteDoes nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?
cp
It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.
Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?
Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.
Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen, but did not design it to happen directly by his hand? Was God caught off gaurd? Not sure what your getting at here.
Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.
No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.
We are not too far off then concerning that then.
I just do not see the righteousness in creating us, knowing what we would do and the misery we would cause with the ability to do it another way in an instant.
What ever our mistakes rightly are, and where that blame is rightly made, if it was possible to create us and perfect us without that, then thats what should have happened and while some could say Gods ways aren't my ways. Perhaps then humanity is doomed to serve a monster after all.
Whether God has the right to do whatever he wants doesn't mean a loving God would do such a thing if it could be prevented. Most arguments center around free will being a gift, because then we are individuals and choose and rightly love God, but then we are back to square one. If God can do anything then he could of perfected us with those abilities without all of the misery it takes to learn what it is.
The way I see it bro is the obedience is the only way to perfection, thus God created us with the ability(freewill) to be obedient unto perfection. God is free bro, so in order for us to be like Him He had to create us also free.
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
The way I see it bro is the obedience is the only way to perfection, thus God created us with the ability(freewill) to be obedient unto perfection. God is free bro, so in order for us to be like Him He had to create us also free.
Yes, even God could not have done it any other way. Which indeed is why in his wisdom he was not fooled concerning anything we do, but he planned for it to prevent failure.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:40:07 AM
Quote from: Doc on March 20, 2009, 12:29:38 AM
Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?
:cloud9: Well, I had an interesting dream once, that I think He was using to get me to see this. It was one scene really. I saw an angel about 8 ft tall with wings, standing next to me and it had fire red hair. It told me an instruction from the Lord. I looked closer at the angel and thought there was something about it that looked familiar. Then I realized, it was "ME", IF I had red hair and was 8 ft. tall. :mshock: Blessings.....
an interesting DREAM ONCE?..but there again ya did say ya Math was Bad :icon_king:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:19:32 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.
:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....
:thumbsup: cool I have kicked that thought around for awhile now, seem the Father may have been quitely speaking to other on it as well. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Doc on March 20, 2009, 12:29:38 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 12:19:32 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.
:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....
Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?
:laughing7: so much for making it a email topic. Don't worry about taking the thread off topic I never mind a topic going where the Lord would have it go.
What's frightening is that what we're talking about is strikingly similar to
this: http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/Cults/Mormon/Lucifer.htm
I'm not sure if some of the scriptural description of the angels who left their first estate quite fit us as believers, but maybe I'm wrong; I haven't really looked into it yet.
:cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....
Hi Guys
I beleive our corruptible bodies of sin ,of which the spirit of
disobediance was operative in...represent the true fallen angels.
they are shown 'alike' in the following respects....
thrown out of heaven..thrown out of the garden
sought to be like God..covet his Throne.
I see our 'nakedness' as our vulnerability to corruption...
and it more or less served as 'bait' for satan.he could manifest
himself in our temple[body] which rightfully belongs to God
and is for HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN thus the coveting of God's
throne in heaven and earth[coveting another man's wife]
when satan was in heaven he dwelt in an incorruptible
heavenly vessel...he sought a vessel that he could do his
corrupt works in...thus through intrigue and deceit he 'stole' the
vessels of mankind for his own and own use.
And used these vessels to bring forth his own evil seed.
Adam was rightly given sovereignty of the earth as a secound
angel. But God
would NOT give HIS GLORY to another[namely satan]
satan did not know what death was...the sentence of death
of the corruptible dust vessel has shown satan what will
happen to him.
so in a sense we are a fallen secound angel..the angels that were to keep the garden on earth...our message is to put to death the works of satan and reject his evil reign..but
exercize mercy to the family of Adam..who were robbed and
are as stolen temple vessels unto the Lord. We preach the
coming time of total restoration of these temple vessels
unto the LORD. and annhilation to the kingdom of darkness
unto mankind.
the scripture in Daniel comes to mind..Mene mene tekel
and parsin..it is God who decides who rules...and the reign was given to Jesus Christ..who bought the temple vessels back
by His own blood...a SON OF MAN the PROMISED SEED
who crushed the head[mind/thought] of the serpent
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 12:57:19 AM
Don't worry about taking the thread off topic I never mind a topic going where the Lord would have it go.
:cloud9: Me either, pneuma. If a thread goes on and on and on, it's STILL the Lord working out something in someone (or someones) to His good pleasure, is the way I look at it.
And maybe we should do a little digging on that fallen angel topic since He seems to have been broaching the subject with a few? Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 01:11:33 AM
:cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....
I agree, but also beleive because Christ is the light in all men that men sometimes give forth light without even realising it.
I have not read the link either, so they could be way off track, just an observation in general.
Quote from: pneuma on March 20, 2009, 01:15:19 AM
I agree, but also beleive because Christ is the light in all men that men sometimes give forth light without even realising it.
:cloud9: I agree pneuma......
Good post Sheila.....I'll have to think on that.....
Quote from: sheila on March 20, 2009, 01:12:34 AM
Hi Guys
I beleive our corruptible bodies of sin ,of which the spirit of
disobediance was operative in...represent the true fallen angels.
they are shown 'alike' in the following respects....
thrown out of heaven..thrown out of the garden
sought to be like God..covet his Throne.
I see our 'nakedness' as our vulnerability to corruption...
and it more or less served as 'bait' for satan.he could manifest
himself in our temple[body] which rightfully belongs to God
and is for HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN thus the coveting of God's
throne in heaven and earth[coveting another man's wife]
when satan was in heaven he dwelt in an incorruptible
heavenly vessel...he sought a vessel that he could do his
corrupt works in...thus through intrigue and deceit he 'stole' the
vessels of mankind for his own and own use.
And used these vessels to bring forth his own evil seed.
Adam was rightly given sovereignty of the earth as a secound
angel. But God
would NOT give HIS GLORY to another[namely satan]
satan did not know what death was...the sentence of death
of the corruptible dust vessel has shown satan what will
happen to him.
so in a sense we are a fallen secound angel..the angels that were to keep the garden on earth...our message is to put to death the works of satan and reject his evil reign..but
exercize mercy to the family of Adam..who were robbed and
are as stolen temple vessels unto the Lord. We preach the
coming time of total restoration of these temple vessels
unto the LORD. and annhilation to the kingdom of darkness
unto mankind.
the scripture in Daniel comes to mind..Mene mene tekel
and parsin..it is God who decides who rules...and the reign was given to Jesus Christ..who bought the temple vessels back
by His own blood...a SON OF MAN the PROMISED SEED
who crushed the head[mind/thought] of the serpent
Shelia, some of that I agree with, and some I;'ll have to pray and think on
Thanks for posting it.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 01:11:33 AM
:cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....
Yeah, I realize that there are going to be counterfeits, and it was kind of a tongue-in-cheek post anyway.
There are some things about the scriptural description of the angels who left their first estate that doesn't quite seem to fit, so it's just something I'm going to have to dig into more and ask for more revelation on, that's all I'm saying. At least, where this has gone is not quite what I had in mind when I posted what I did earlier in the thread. I think it's worth talking through, though. I'm always eager for new insight.
:cloud9: Me too! Blessings....
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 19, 2009, 10:21:26 PM
I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.
Just some things to think about.
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:51:29 PM
Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well? I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours. I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before. I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.
Doc, I too see this as you so eloquently described.
cp
I beleive we are little 'peices' of Him,too.
I beleive we were all in the nursery in heaven before he sent
us down. Any of you ever go to the Nasa site and see the
astronomy pictures of the day? the stellar'star' nurseries
just alway amaze me
Sheila
Thanks, claypot and sheila (and the rest of you). It's good to know I'm not the lone ranger on this stuff, and that as I believe Cardinal put it, not having to wonder (as much) am I going crazy? At least if I am, I'm not the only one. :laughing7:
Cardinal said something that was in my original thought in the "going out on a limb" post, but I didn't actually end up writing it. The bit about remembering who we are. From a scriptural perspective it just seems so off base, but I can't help the feeling that the whole process of salvation, being perfected, being revealed as sons; all of our spiritual development is tied into that thought: We're not becoming something we weren't already, we're just gradually remembering who we are (who we were made to be).
I'm looking forward to this discussion continuing.
Hi All, I hope you guys continue these thoughts also, but for the next few days I will not be able to participate as I have some tests comming up and need to study for them, but will post when given some time.
God bless
Quote from: Doc on March 20, 2009, 07:54:45 AM
We're not becoming something we weren't already, we're just gradually remembering who we are (who we were made to be).
:cloud9: Well, as I said before, that's what He said to me 23 years ago. He said so many things back then and I had no clue what the heck He was talking about. I just never forgot them, figuring in time He would show me. And I have seen many of them come back to witness to me over the years, as I understood more. Blessings....
PS. pneuma, be blessed with those tests! See you when you return.... :thumbsup:
Remembering who we used to be . .. Doc, you've done it again.
This is what I believe is the foremost plan of God for this day and age. There has been a changing of the guard since the sun/Son has set on the 6th day (works-based thinking) and the Sabbath day is now dawning . . .and this day is not like the previous 6 days. This day all the laws of labor are suspended. This day the natural reasoning comes to an end, and personal revelation takes the stage. And the beauty of personal revelation is . . .even though there are millions and even billions of people . . .the revelation is ONE.
We are being returned to our original state . . .where our identity is not in our appearance or our abilities, but our identity is in our creator. For us to return to this understanding, we must return to the source from which it comes . . the only tree in the garden that produced light . . .the tree of life. We ourselves are not what's lost . . .it's our identity that's lost. We lost our identity in who we are. And that's what Christ came to save . . .the reason I see myself as a sinner is because I've lost my true self. It's not who I thought it once was. My identity is not me, my looks, my personality, my actions or abilities . . .my identity is my Creator . . .and because I lost that . . .my Creator sent his Son to save what I've lost.
Luke 19
9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
QuoteWe are being returned to our original state
this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?
see my point? wasnt adam OF the earth? (( from below )) will we not be made BETTER? in the likness of the heavenly ?
chuckt dont like dirt.
peace
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 06:11:34 PM
chuckt dont like dirt.
:cloud9: :grin: Me, neither, I'm tired of dragging around this dirt suit. :thumbsup:
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 06:11:34 PM
QuoteWe are being returned to our original state
this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?
Here is how I kind of see that. we do not really have the words to describe the state of God, the state of something that has always existed. The best we can do is just know that God is and thats as much understand as we can have.
This is why I do not like the trinity doctrine (please no debates over it, just bear with me!!!!)
It is not that I do not see the concept of a oneness of God, Jesus, holy spirit, has nothing to do with whether that is possible.
It has to do with whether we are truly different from God in the respect that when God is all in all then there is no trinity, there is ALL.
For instance, on a purely physical analogy, lets say you were the first human to be perfected. Then instead of the "trinity" IE "God in three persons" there is now 4 persons in one (just to explain the words often used in the trinty). God in 4 persons.
So returning to the original state could be a bit limiting, but the intent I believe is to say God is expanding as a family, so we come out of God which would be whatever his spirit actually is which there probably is no words for entirely. We end up one with God, so the original state "of what God is" but perfect as a new creature, one with him.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 20, 2009, 06:58:12 PM
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 06:11:34 PM
QuoteWe are being returned to our original state
this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?
Here is how I kind of see that. we do not really have the words to describe the state of God, the state of something that has always existed. The best we can do is just know that God is and thats as much understand as we can have.
This is why I do not like the trinity doctrine (please no debates over it, just bear with me!!!!)
It is not that I do not see the concept of a oneness of God, Jesus, holy spirit, has nothing to do with whether that is possible.
It has to do with whether we are truly different from God in the respect that when God is all in all then there is no trinity, there is ALL.
For instance, on a purely physical analogy, lets say you were the first human to be perfected. Then instead of the "trinity" IE "God in three persons" there is now 4 persons in one (just to explain the words often used in the trinty). God in 4 persons.
So returning to the original state could be a bit limiting, but the intent I believe is to say God is expanding as a family, so we come out of God which would be whatever his spirit actually is which there probably is no words for entirely. We end up one with God, so the original state "of what God is" but perfect as a new creature, one with him.
blasphemy :happy3:
yo paul, excellent, did yall ever notoce the word ""cool""
Click Verse for Commentary Notes
Ge 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the
cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Ruwach TWOT - 2131a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
roo'-akh Noun Feminine
Definition
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath wind
my qusetion would be was adam ONE with God? i personally dont think so, he was still naked.
thoughts?
chuckt
:cloud9: I think he was one with God until he FELL. He walked with God in the cool of the day, that relates to every word (breath) that comes from the mouth of God, by which we live or have spirit life. This points back to the other discussion thread we got going, don't you think? Blessings....
For me, the entire garden is "God" and in God is the law and life . . .they balance out each other. . .God created Adam out of this earth and "placed" him in the garden of the spirit. He put him in himself . .and to do so . . .Adam was not in the same state that we are in now . . .he was predominantly spirit and invisibly flesh . . .just as now, we are predominantly flesh and invisibly spirit. Adam is the one that reversed our make-up by misaligning with God . .but again, even that was for a purpose . .and it's likely that Adam was not aware of the over all purpose, but I can't say that as fact.
When I see me returning back to my original state, I see me back before the fall and the question is always there . . .if Adam fell . .what's going to keep us from falling . . .and my answer to that is . . Christ only needed to die once.
And by that I mean that this whole thing was planned not to bring redemption to man . . .but to bring glory to the Son. And for glory to be brought to the Son . . .Man had to choose what he chose in order to bring about the events that would manifest that glory.
And because that has already been done and only necessary to be done once and for all . . .there is never any fear of it ever happening again.
Again . . .just my opinion from what I see now.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 07:21:50 PM
:cloud9: I think he was one with God until he FELL. He walked with God in the cool of the day, that relates to every word (breath) that comes from the mouth of God, by which we live or have spirit life. This points back to the other discussion thread we got going, don't you think? Blessings....
:icon_flower:
Gen 2:25 they were both naked, the man and his wife,
and were not ashamed.Neither ASHAMED of HIS words :cloud9:
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be
ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation;
of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed**
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith,
Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. :icon_flower:
QuoteWhen I see me returning back to my original state, I see me back before the fall
naked???i am trying to understand here, why would we want to go back to being naked? (( adams original state ))
check out the word naked:
`arowm its original sense:
aram TWOT - 1698
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-ram' Verb
Definition
to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
(Qal) to be crafty, be subtle (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
sound familar?? ....look:
Verse for Commentary Notes Next 20
Ge 3:1
Now the serpent was more
subtil aruwm TWOT - 1698c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-room' Adjective
Definition
subtle, shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible
crafty shrewd, sensible, prudent
i dont wanna go back to anything i wanna go FORWARD.......
is chuckt making sense??? is chuckt crazy??
peace
me
:cloud9: We're clothed with His Word(s), clothed with His righteousness, instead of shame.....so what of our nature was naked and wwas NOT ashamed? Thinking outside the literal box here of it being flesh man..... See what I mean? If we were not ashamed then we had to be clothed with His Word(s) and His righteousness. It seems a contradiction to me. Blessings....
QuoteGen 2:25 they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
hi bro taffy.
is the above a good thing? how can we be clothed if we dont realize we are naked??
once they realized they were naked what happened?
the end has to have a beginning.
im looking at the message not the literal part.
chuckt
:cloud9: I see your point Chuckt, but what if it was "wise as a serpent, BUT gentle as a dove", ie. naked = wise, knowing one, but this time a wise knowing one who is also RE-covered in Christ = dove? Just thinking out loud here with you all.....
My take is that the Serpent is ADAM - more specifically it is the disobedient nature of Adam. So when you see that the Serpent is talking to Eve - I actually believe it is Adam talking to Eve.
Paul
Another angle on this would be Jesus said he would make all things new . . .he didn't say he would make all new things . . .for me that's restoration . . .to restore something is to bring it back to it's original state.
thanks everyone.
i guess my main point is even adam had to be clothed with Christ, he never partook of the tree of life, which to me = Christ the resureection IE, glorification.
i will ponder these things over the weekend.
yall be blessed, thanks for the awsome discussions and grace to you all.
euty...er um chuckt :msealed: :bgdance:
well, Paul said that it was not that he desired to be unclothed
but to be clothed upon from on high.
that they were naked and knew it not..imo is that they
din't realize that they were not clothed in the Glory of the
Father as yet[incorruptible] I think that is why satan was
embolded to deceive them and lead them out in sin.
after the transgression they became aware.
he has said...my people will not be ashamed, I really
liked what Taffy put in his post about it.
were they ashamed of God's word to not eat of that tree in
the face of the slanderer of God's character?In the faceof
" surely not,God knows that if you eat you will be like him?"
Obediance bespeaks TRUST trust and love go hand in hand..
did they really know God yet?...I don't think so,for they hadn't
eat from the tree of life yet. How can you love and trust
someone if you don't know him? And you beleive a lie said about Him?
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 07:55:41 PM
thanks everyone.
i guess my main point is even adam had to be clothed with Christ, he never partook of the tree of life, which to me = Christ the resureection IE, glorification.
i will ponder these things over the weekend.
yall be blessed, thanks for the awsome discussions and grace to you all.
euty...er um chuckt :msealed: :bgdance:
:cloud9: What? You mean you're leaving us till next week? You get our engines revved up and then you leave? Is that fair? :mshock:
:winkgrin: :icon_jokercolor: Just joshing ya.....have a great weekend. :happygrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 08:18:51 PM
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 07:55:41 PM
thanks everyone.
i guess my main point is even adam had to be clothed with Christ, he never partook of the tree of life, which to me = Christ the resureection IE, glorification.
i will ponder these things over the weekend.
yall be blessed, thanks for the awsome discussions and grace to you all.
euty...er um chuckt :msealed: :bgdance:
:cloud9: What? You mean you're leaving us till next week? You get our engines revved up and then you leave? Is that fair? :mshock:
:winkgrin: :icon_jokercolor: Just joshing ya.....have a great weekend. :happygrin:
ah i might show up for a little while tomorrow.
tell ya though, this place is such a refreshing change, forgot how much i missed it.
peace
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 07:46:03 PM
QuoteGen 2:25 they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
hi bro taffy.
is the above a good thing? how can we be clothed if we dont realize we are naked??
once they realized they were naked what happened?
the end has to have a beginning.
im looking at the message not the literal part.
chuckt
Hi Grand dad :icon_flower:
Card makes a good Comment,
Naked In its carnal sence for mine is very much a Term for sinful ,..But could there be a Purity before Eve ate? as In NOT ashamed of HIS WORDS? Shame come to those who are afraid or deny them.
ive always found this interesting by comparisson
Rom 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came,
sin revived, and I died
.
ISNT the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil a similitude of the LAW :icon_flower:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die. Adam was alive Prior , walking with God in the SPIRIT of the DAY, Through the consequence of the deceit of eves desire , the recognition of GOOD and Evil was wrought, The law brings us BACK to God,its a apart of the pathway ,as Paul says The LAW is GOOD, AS WITH ADAM\Eve they saw their SIN...and NOW their Shame , for prior there wasnt any?
As Eve was Beguiled by enticing WORDS, Lest you forget the
ONENESS IN CHRIST Col 2:4 And this I say,
lest any man should beguile you with
enticing words.
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means,
as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.Again HIS WORDS, who keepeth Shall never see death... :icon_flower:
John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man
keep my saying, he shall
never see death.Just my :2c: PENNIES Bro
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 06:01:25 PM
Remembering who we used to be . .. Doc, you've done it again.
This is what I believe is the foremost plan of God for this day and age. There has been a changing of the guard since the sun/Son has set on the 6th day (works-based thinking) and the Sabbath day is now dawning . . .and this day is not like the previous 6 days. This day all the laws of labor are suspended. This day the natural reasoning comes to an end, and personal revelation takes the stage. And the beauty of personal revelation is . . .even though there are millions and even billions of people . . .the revelation is ONE.
We are being returned to our original state . . .where our identity is not in our appearance or our abilities, but our identity is in our creator. For us to return to this understanding, we must return to the source from which it comes . . the only tree in the garden that produced light . . .the tree of life. We ourselves are not what's lost . . .it's our identity that's lost. We lost our identity in who we are. And that's what Christ came to save . . .the reason I see myself as a sinner is because I've lost my true self. It's not who I thought it once was. My identity is not me, my looks, my personality, my actions or abilities . . .my identity is my Creator . . .and because I lost that . . .my Creator sent his Son to save what I've lost.
Luke 19
9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Well, actually, it's not me Nathan. God just keeps dumping this stuff in my lap, and I don't know what to do with all of it. One of the things that I really appreciate about this forum is that I can talk about this stuff here without being looked at like I'm from Mars.
Great stuff, everyone. Keep 'em coming!
:cloud9: What?! I was SURE you were from Mars. I thought I saw you there at the last class reunion. :winkgrin: :grin:
Maybe . . .the garden of Eden is actually MARS!!!!
DOC MARTI[A}NS?
yea,I know him too.....heard he had an inner an outer soul! :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor: :mblush:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 09:51:35 PM
:cloud9: What?! I was SURE you were from Mars. I thought I saw you there at the last class reunion. :winkgrin: :grin:
:laughing7:
see Card, you have a Pal :icon_flower:
Quote from: sheila on March 20, 2009, 10:01:42 PM
DOC MARTI[A}NS?
yea,I know him too.....heard he had an inner an outer soul! :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor: :mblush:
Nice One sheila ROLF!!! :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 20, 2009, 10:06:02 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 20, 2009, 10:01:42 PM
DOC MARTI[A}NS?
yea,I know him too.....heard he had an inner an outer soul! :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor: :mblush:
Nice One sheila ROLF!!! :icon_flower:
Amen..... :grin:
Hey Taffy!
is rolling on a laughing floor anything like...
riding on a merry-go-round?
:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:
dont get me started...or there will be a p in there! :mblush:
Quote from: sheila on March 20, 2009, 10:44:01 PM
Hey Taffy!
is rolling on a laughing floor anything like...
riding on a merry-go-round?
:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:
dont get me started...or there will be a p in there! :mblush:
Been some good jokes lately Sheila,..but yours is the Best Today.....Has been known to wet ya self laughing....ill just make sure i got a Nappy ready... :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Not so sure that's the mist from the earth we were eluding to :dontknow:
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 11:14:59 PM
Not so sure that's the mist from the earth we were eluding to :dontknow:
:laughing7:
I believe means your not clothed with God's Grace.
Paul
We are the clay, that is being made into One Body, One Spirit, having One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of All — who is over all, and through all, and in all.
True messengers (angels) cannot sin, thus, the falling away from their first estate would be that of, or within the spirit of man. As we will not be exchanging one sinful nature – for that of another!
Those who left their habitation (place of continuance, or abode) were cast out of heaven; power, into hell (the grave), not to the earth. Unless one means the ground, as they are held in chains of darkness that surrounds them.
"Casting a soft light on the subject." :idea2:
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on March 21, 2009, 07:56:03 AM
We are the clay, that is being made into One Body, One Spirit, having One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of All — who is over all, and through all, and in all.
True messengers (angels) cannot sin, thus, the falling away from their first estate would be that of, or within the spirit of man. As we will not be exchanging one sinful nature – for that of another!
Those who left their habitation (place of continuance, or abode) were cast out of heaven; power, into hell (the grave), not to the earth. Unless one means the ground, as they are held in chains of darkness that surrounds them.
"Casting a soft light on the subject." :idea2:
peacemaker
Very amusing (very 'punny') about the shoes. Someone on another thread called me Doc Holliday. Anyway, the reference is to my profession, FYI for those of you who may be curious (and I don't mean "unusual"). We're
all that kind of curious here.... :laughing7:
Yeah, I'm not too sure about this "angels who left their first estate" component. I mean, read the book of Jude and tell me that's us.... Yikes. :mshock:
though this interesting:
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.
Shachath TWOT - 2370
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-khath' Verb
Definition
1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
2.. (Piel)
1.. to spoil, ruin
2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
3.. (Hiphil)
1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
3.. destroyer (participle)
4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)
ok thats my one post for the day. :mblush:
God
Bless
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on March 21, 2009, 07:38:36 PM
though this interesting:
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.
Shachath TWOT - 2370
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-khath' Verb
Definition
1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
2.. (Piel)
1.. to spoil, ruin
2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
3.. (Hiphil)
1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
3.. destroyer (participle)
4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)
ok thats my one post for the day. :mblush:
God
Bless
chuckt
Well, I like your one post Chuck :bigGrin: .. thanks for the balance, bro :thumbsup:
Quote from: Doc on March 21, 2009, 09:20:46 AM
Someone on another thread called me Doc Holliday. Anyway, the reference is to my profession, FYI for those of you who may be curious (and I don't mean "unusual"). We're all that kind of curious here.... :laughing7:
Yeah, I'm not too sure about this "angels who left their first estate" component. I mean, read the book of Jude and tell me that's us.... Yikes. :mshock:
:cloud9: So you're saying I need to call you Dr. Doc? :laughing7: Sorry, couldn't resist. :winkgrin:
Anyway, so we're held in chains of darkness until the time of the end? I don't see a problem here; it says in another place He'll make tight our bands. The things that have us bound ARE as chains of darkness. If you look up darkness it means ignorance, ie. we are ignorant of the things which be of Christ, until He gives us light (wisdom) about those things.
It also says a chain is put on "Satan", which is the chain that is given to "Joseph" to put around his NECK, once we are rulers and not ruled over, ie. not a stiff-necked generation anymore. Blessings....
well just because we must fall to the earth and die..to bear
fruit in heaven...doesn't mean were the fallen angels.
Some of the Lost gospels speak of things that differentiate
the fallen angels from fallen Adam. Granted,there are
similarities in common of rebelliousness. But these are spirits
they have not been placed in a vessel..coz they left their
dwellings in heaven.God sowed man in the earth..man did not
in rebellion come down on his own
Those born of God can not sin...so..they have no corruptible
vessels to flub them up..the corruption is their spirit nature
that shows these fallen spirits are not angelic sons..but
something entirely different..evil spirits...and hey..if Holy
spirit can influence us to good these can influence us to evil
.Our Father sowed us into this earth as HIS
HOLY SEED. The problem is satan wants to rule over
man..use his flesh for his own works of evil. Jesus came in
flesh and redeemed all mankind sown in flesh..not disobediant
angels.. I NEVER ONCE HEARD HIM SAY HE CAME TO SAVE THE
DEMONS OR SATAN. When He spoke to the demonic he cast
them out of peoples flesh..because they didn't belong there
The fallen angels down here don't have their own flesh and
blood..that's why they want ours so bad..to defile GOD'S image
. Personally I see them as parasites that bring death to us..
both spiritually and bodily. His GOOD SPIRIT is not like that
it gives life to us and is beneficeint to us..
There was WAR in HEAVEN...Michael and his angels fought
against satan and his angels..apparently satan and his angels
accuse us to God all the time..and say we are as bad as them
and not worthy of being saved. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN A NAIVE CHILD OF GOD THAT DOESN'T KNOW HIS
RIGHT HAND FROM HIS LEFT and is born in a corruptible weak
body into a corrupted earth where lies abound. And a demonic
spirit that has lived in heaven for a long long time..rebelled
in heaven ..come to earth spreading lies on God..lead Adam
and Eve into sin through deceit to bring about their death,
possess mens bodies as if he owned them himself instead of
them belonging to God for God's spirit to dwell in and finally
through an act of war was permenately thrown out to earth
to await his judgement .
Big difference between them and us...DO YOU NOT KNOW
THAT WE ARE BEING RAISED TO HEAVEN TO TAKE THEIR
FORMER DWELLING PLACES? Jacob/supplanter God has given
Adam's family their former positions.And rightly so for they
stole Adam's dominion given on the earth for themselves
They are the true sons of perdition[eternal cutting off] this was
shown when satan entered Judas. body...the one doomed to
destruction....give his position to another
They are not capable of LOVE OR MERCY..they are not
made in the image of God....we in sinful flesh..bear their image
in the corruption of our flesh.But will be given new garments
Mankind will go from glory to glory..while they will go from
vileness to vileness. Jesus said if I be lifted up,I will draw
all men unto me[not satan and his demons]
I know many of you will not agree with me..but I hope you will
pray about it.
Sheila
The darkness of ignorance, dimness of discernment, obscurity of reasoning, and superstition are merely the absence of light; blindness.
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)
peacemaker
Quote from: chuckt on March 21, 2009, 07:38:36 PM
though this interesting:
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.
Shachath TWOT - 2370
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-khath' Verb
Definition
1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
2.. (Piel)
1.. to spoil, ruin
2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
3.. (Hiphil)
1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
3.. destroyer (participle)
4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)
ok thats my one post for the day. :mblush:
God
Bless
chuckt
That is interesting...
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. Matthew 13:10,11
Without going into that free will/sovereignty debate, probably most would agree, it's an involved/complicated subject, and God's a whole lot bigger than our own opinions and the boxes we sometimes try to put Him in, huh? The "glass darkly" routine.
I really like your post Sheila, and I sure don't know one way or the other...honestly, got my doubts, but just not sure...what do you think about the Collosians 1:20'ish passages about reconciling all in and under the earth? Again, obviously there are probably numerous ways to interpret this, and as with everything else, should be in total context :dontknow: ...how though would you compare/contrast that to what you're saying?
Thanks, James.
That's a really good question Jabcat. And I can certainly
see why many of my brothers and sisters would think that
meant the fallen angels are to be reconciled too.
And I beleive even the animals etc will be given eternal life
the reason I don't beleive that the fallen angels will be is
because they are a tool..of a blacksmith..a waster to
destroy[corrupt].The spirit of life is not in them..or Father
would certainly preserve that life.
the old preistly covenant was set up to mirror the true
heavenly things. 1Kings6;7 In building the temple,only
blocks dressed at the quarry were used,and no hammer,
chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while
it was being built. Exodus 20;25 If you make an alter of
stones for me,do not build it with dressed stones,for you will
defile it if you use a tool on it.
. So,too, with that spiritual temple that Jesus is raising up .
When everything is made NEW and perfect and eternal what
need of a waster to destroy is there when it is perfect?
the waster is the evil tool He uses to accomplish His task.
the liar has to perish for truth to increase..the end of death
is LIFE the end of all rebellion is harmony. the end of
corruption is incorruption..when the work is accomplished the
tool is set aside.
It was blaspemy for a mere man to say he was God's son..
the offspring of vipers said that to Jesus
what kind of blasphemy is it for a mere tool[evil] to not only
say he is God's son but to also rebel and attempt totake His
throne for himself.....He has been persistenly humbled
step by step...from a rebellious angel[son of God] to
the original serpent..to the beast..to a bastard..to a lying spirit
to a son of perdition to an evil spirit ..to a mere tool.
Our creator has to tell us what we are...or we are presumptous
and that is the same as idolatry. Satan has presumed too
much himself.
Our Father has humbled the proud[satan]
and exalted the lowly[mankind]
How do I fit in that scripture He shall reconcile all in heaven
and earth? Evil spirits[angels/messages] and evil[sinful] flesh
will be done away with forever....if there is no corrupt spirit
and no corrupt vessel what is there but Holy spirit and holy
vessels? Is that not a breaking up the works of the devil?
I wouldn't ever let disagreement over this seperate me from
anyone on this forum. And in addition to the things I stated
above I have revelation from the Holy spirit about their
existance. I know that 'outlook' is deemed outmoded
by many.But Jesus was not 'humoring' the people of his day
in regard to superstitions...and just going along with them and
'pretending' to be dealing with these spirits.
Someday we will all be brought into perfect unityof knowledge
but we must never allow any imperfect knowledge or knowing
in part to break our unity of love. Yes,we may not all see
things the same way,exactly..and we each are free to
express our thoughts..even though we may differ
Sheila :soap:
:cloud9: Question; looking at it in reverse, what part of man was one with Him from the foundation of the earth? What part of man was lowered then, into this bondage of corruption? Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 22, 2009, 06:12:08 AM
:cloud9: Question; looking at it in reverse, what part of man was one with Him from the foundation of the earth? What part of man was lowered then, into this bondage of corruption? Blessings.....
The Lamb [slain from the foundation of the world] is the part of Adam that was one with Him.
Man [Adam] was lowered into corruption [slain] as the seed [of Christ] that has to die first to give forth life.
in hope
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.--Romans
"creature"G2937
κτίσις
ktisisktis'-is
From G2936;
original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building,
creation, creature, ordinance.
If I could just understand what a few of these verses are saying...
Adam and the sons of Adam have something to do with the liberation of all of God's creation.
It starts in a set apart place called the garden, and Christ finishes it on the cross before the whole world, but we are to manifest it.
I certainly understand and can appreciate your post, sheila. And who of us really knows the fate of certain angelic beings? I'm not sure that the scripture gives us enough information to say for certain one way or the other.
I do have some thoughts about sections of your post, so I'll just throw them out there for discussion:
Quote from: sheila on March 22, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
That's a really good question Jabcat. And I can certainly
see why many of my brothers and sisters would think that
meant the fallen angels are to be reconciled too.
And I beleive even the animals etc will be given eternal life
the reason I don't beleive that the fallen angels will be is
because they are a tool..of a blacksmith..a waster to
destroy[corrupt].The spirit of life is not in them..or Father
would certainly preserve that life.
The thought that came to mind here was that corruption must put on incorruption.
It seems to me that if angels were able to have the choice to leave their first estate, there may be some way to regain it. If angels had enough choice to rebel, then perhaps that is an indication that they are more than mere tools? Also, if God makes all (things) new, 'all' would (I would think) necessarily include the angelic beings.
Quote
the old preistly covenant was set up to mirror the true
heavenly things. 1Kings6;7 In building the temple,only
blocks dressed at the quarry were used,and no hammer,
chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while
it was being built. Exodus 20;25 If you make an alter of
stones for me,do not build it with dressed stones,for you will
defile it if you use a tool on it.
. So,too, with that spiritual temple that Jesus is raising up .
When everything is made NEW and perfect and eternal what
need of a waster to destroy is there when it is perfect?
the waster is the evil tool He uses to accomplish His task.
the liar has to perish for truth to increase..the end of death
is LIFE the end of all rebellion is harmony. the end of
corruption is incorruption..when the work is accomplished the
tool is set aside.
I don't disagree with these observations; my thoughts here would be:
Even though it is true that the waster is used to destroy, that is the ordained function for a time only, as was the case, I believe, with Judas. Once this is accomplished, the waster may be returned to it's former estate once its purpose as waster is served, and it has been duly purified. That view takes on a somewhat different character as well, if you view the waster/ adversary as the flesh or carnal mind, rather than a personal being, in which case outright elimination seems more appropriate. Extrapolating that view out to myriad fallen angels is a bit more problematic perhaps.
Quote
It was blaspemy for a mere man to say he was God's son..
the offspring of vipers said that to Jesus
what kind of blasphemy is it for a mere tool[evil] to not only
say he is God's son but to also rebel and attempt totake His
throne for himself.....He has been persistenly humbled
step by step...from a rebellious angel[son of God] to
the original serpent..to the beast..to a bastard..to a lying spirit
to a son of perdition to an evil spirit ..to a mere tool.
And yet He has given us the priviledge of sonship. Jesus was the firstborn of
many brothers; the highest and only
begotten son, but not the only son.
Quote
Our creator has to tell us what we are...or we are presumptous
and that is the same as idolatry. Satan has presumed too
much himself.
Our Father has humbled the proud[satan]
and exalted the lowly[mankind]
I certainly agree that our creator must tell us who/ what we are, as our true identity is only in Him/ is Him. Pride and presumption are (of) the spirit of antichrist.
Quote
How do I fit in that scripture He shall reconcile all in heaven
and earth? Evil spirits[angels/messages] and evil[sinful] flesh
will be done away with forever....if there is no corrupt spirit
and no corrupt vessel what is there but Holy spirit and holy
vessels? Is that not a breaking up the works of the devil?
It
is a breaking up the works of the devil in a sense, but it is also more than that. Perhaps the key word there is
works of the devil. He came to destroy the works of the devil, but not necessarily the devil himself except in the sense of transformation or restoration (assuming the personal devil view). A corrupt spirit could be done away with by transforming it or restoring it into an incorruptible spirit as well as literal annihilation.
Quote
I wouldn't ever let disagreement over this seperate me from
anyone on this forum. And in addition to the things I stated
above I have revelation from the Holy spirit about their
existance. I know that 'outlook' is deemed outmoded
by many.But Jesus was not 'humoring' the people of his day
in regard to superstitions...and just going along with them and
'pretending' to be dealing with these spirits.
Nor would I let that come between us, and I'm not really arguing with you; just thinking out loud mostly.
I don't disagree that their existence is real, however there is a higher spiritual reality (tabernacles) where for all practical purposes, they don't exist. I don't expect you or anyone else to understand that, because I'm not sure I do fully. :laughing7: What I mean to say there, is that there is a reality where there is only God, nothing else. This is the reality that all creation is to ultimately become part of.
Quote
Someday we will all be brought into perfect unityof knowledge
but we must never allow any imperfect knowledge or knowing
in part to break our unity of love. Yes,we may not all see
things the same way,exactly..and we each are free to
express our thoughts..even though we may differ
Sheila :soap:
Indeed we will be brought into that unity. If we all saw things exactly the same way, we wouldn't be much of a body would we? (All eyes, all hands, etc.)
Once again, I really appreciate your thoughts in this post, and I hope my interjected thoughts are fuel for further thoughtful discussion. I certainly don't mean them to be authoritative or a putdown of your thoughts in any way, at any rate.
Grace and peace to you, sis. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: I guess I should rephrase the question. What part of man (spirit, soul, or body) was one with Him from the foundation of the world? Blessings....
well, you guys have given me a lot to consider.
I,too, at one time prayed about the fallen angels..and about
the thought of them warring in heaven,and how upsetting that
must be for our Father..and attempted to make intercession.
And even this is commendable to the saints..that they are of
such a loving and forgiving heart that they would be
concerned for the angels in heaven. I know Enoch,also,
went to make petition to God in the matter.
And I would not be offended in any way God chose to go
about this restoration...and gather all that is scattered
As to what manner a corrupt spirit can be restored..it
seems it,too, must die a certain kind of death.
Nevertheless..we know that all that is corrupt does not
enter that New Jerusalem city,but only those whose names are
written in the Lambs Book of Life.
Matthew 12;28 But if I drive out demons by the spirit of God,
then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luke 8;31 and they begged him repeatedly not to order
them to go into the abyss[bottomless]
evidently after the abyss confinement when they are let out..
they go forth to deceive again and to war again against the
camp of the city He loves. But fire come down from heaven and
devoured them. Earth and sky[old heavens] fled from his
presence and there was NO PLACE for them...[I consider Jesus
saying 'I go to prepare a place for you']
then death and hades were thrown into the LOF
Anyway,we know the time will come when sin in any form will
no longer exist. There will be no place for it.
I have to go get my grand-children,today.They are on spring
break and will be staying with me til Wednesday. So if I don't
reply,think nothing of it..for I will check the thread from time to
time and read your posts. Also, I will pray about this matter
too
Sheila
"Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy."
Paraphrased for emphasis ...
"I have dispatched the carpenter to kindle the live coals of the fire, bringing forth the vessel, or jewel through his labor, cutting down the corrupter by a pledge."
What a solemn promise!
peacemaker
Quote from: chuckt on March 21, 2009, 07:38:36 PM
though this interesting:
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.
Shachath TWOT - 2370
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-khath' Verb
Definition
1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
2.. (Piel)
1.. to spoil, ruin
2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
3.. (Hiphil)
1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
3.. destroyer (participle)
4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)
ok thats my one post for the day. :mblush:
God
Bless
chuckt
Hi Chuck did ya read the Septuagint version of those scriptures I posted earlier? Say something totally different then the KJV.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Notice the words NOT in those scriptures, God did NOT create us as the coppersmith that brings out a vessel fit for work and God has NOT created us for ruin.
Quote from: sheila on March 22, 2009, 12:32:28 AM
well just because we must fall to the earth and die..to bear
fruit in heaven...doesn't mean were the fallen angels.
Some of the Lost gospels speak of things that differentiate
the fallen angels from fallen Adam. Granted,there are
similarities in common of rebelliousness. But these are spirits
they have not been placed in a vessel..coz they left their
dwellings in heaven.God sowed man in the earth..man did not
in rebellion come down on his own
Those born of God can not sin...so..they have no corruptible
vessels to flub them up..the corruption is their spirit nature
that shows these fallen spirits are not angelic sons..but
something entirely different..evil spirits...and hey..if Holy
spirit can influence us to good these can influence us to evil
.Our Father sowed us into this earth as HIS
HOLY SEED. The problem is satan wants to rule over
man..use his flesh for his own works of evil. Jesus came in
flesh and redeemed all mankind sown in flesh..not disobediant
angels.. I NEVER ONCE HEARD HIM SAY HE CAME TO SAVE THE
DEMONS OR SATAN. When He spoke to the demonic he cast
them out of peoples flesh..because they didn't belong there
The fallen angels down here don't have their own flesh and
blood..that's why they want ours so bad..to defile GOD'S image
. Personally I see them as parasites that bring death to us..
both spiritually and bodily. His GOOD SPIRIT is not like that
it gives life to us and is beneficeint to us..
There was WAR in HEAVEN...Michael and his angels fought
against satan and his angels..apparently satan and his angels
accuse us to God all the time..and say we are as bad as them
and not worthy of being saved. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN A NAIVE CHILD OF GOD THAT DOESN'T KNOW HIS
RIGHT HAND FROM HIS LEFT and is born in a corruptible weak
body into a corrupted earth where lies abound. And a demonic
spirit that has lived in heaven for a long long time..rebelled
in heaven ..come to earth spreading lies on God..lead Adam
and Eve into sin through deceit to bring about their death,
possess mens bodies as if he owned them himself instead of
them belonging to God for God's spirit to dwell in and finally
through an act of war was permenately thrown out to earth
to await his judgement .
Big difference between them and us...DO YOU NOT KNOW
THAT WE ARE BEING RAISED TO HEAVEN TO TAKE THEIR
FORMER DWELLING PLACES? Jacob/supplanter God has given
Adam's family their former positions.And rightly so for they
stole Adam's dominion given on the earth for themselves
They are the true sons of perdition[eternal cutting off] this was
shown when satan entered Judas. body...the one doomed to
destruction....give his position to another
They are not capable of LOVE OR MERCY..they are not
made in the image of God....we in sinful flesh..bear their image
in the corruption of our flesh.But will be given new garments
Mankind will go from glory to glory..while they will go from
vileness to vileness. Jesus said if I be lifted up,I will draw
all men unto me[not satan and his demons]
I know many of you will not agree with me..but I hope you will
pray about it.
Sheila
Hi Sheila, heres a different outlook
Satan's reconciliation
When we limit God salvation to just man we do much damage to the scriptures, and put a limit on the only one who is without limit. We diminish the fullness of the cross of our Lord by saying it only reaches to mankind. ALL THINGS in heaven and earth and under the earth are reconciled by way of the cross. And yes that includes Satan.
Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Just by these two scriptures above we can see that all things in the heaven will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But not only those things in the heavens, but those things in the earth and under the earth also confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord.
Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Now least any say, but Col.1:16-20 says nothing about Satan being reconciled, I would point out that ALL THINGS in heaven, ALL THINGS in the earth, both visible and INVISIBLE, are reconciled.
Also note that it states that THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS are also reconciled by way of the cross.
So who are these THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS?
Ephesians 6:12 tells us.
Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Now according to the above scriptures even those things we war against ( devils in high places ) are reconciled by way of the cross.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Note that the LIGHT shineth IN the darkness.
The darkness also has the Light and in the dispensation of the fullness of times, that Light is going to shine out of great darkness.
Yes the darkness will be gone for only the Light that is within it will remain, same as with us.
ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross , I do not place a limit on Gods salvation for it is without limit.
Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Praise God His cross is without limitations.
God bless.
Great post, pneuma!
Yes good post pneuma.
This verse should give us a big clue as what happens to the angels (presumably "fallen" angels too?)
1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
The angels will get judged, just like everyone else. And we know God's judgment doesn't lead to hell, but leads to things being corrected, reconciled, and made righteous.
Quote from: legoman on March 23, 2009, 08:25:04 PM
Yes good post pneuma.
This verse should give us a big clue as what happens to the angels (presumably "fallen" angels too?)
1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
The angels will get judged, just like everyone else. And we know God's judgment doesn't lead to hell, but leads to things being corrected, reconciled, and made righteous.
Lets not forget that judgment should not always be seen in the light of correction, but mostly first and foremost of reward.
I do not believe in fallen angels myself, that belief is quite irrelevant when it comes down to something I cannot prove, but are we to judge the angels for their wrong doing? Perhaps, but I see it as when we learn true unconditional love we will be rewarding them.
Quotethis sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?
see my point? wasnt adam OF the earth? (( from below )) will we not be made BETTER? in the likness of the heavenly ?
chuckt dont like dirt.
peace
Hi Chuck, that scripture that states the first man Adam is of the earth earthy is one of the reason I never mentioned before some of these thoughts that have been going through my mind.
I have spoken many times of the earth earthy man so how can his first estate be in the heavenlies?
This was always my argument that I ran up against in my own head. After all Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed into the garden so how can Adam's first estate be in the heavenlies?
Should not his first estate then be of the earth OUTSIDE of the garden? And his second estate be of the heavenlies?
You can see by this reasoning why I have had a hard time excepting our first estate to be of the heavenlies. So you're probably wondering why it was I that brought it up in the first place. The reason is because I did find an answer to this dilemma.
So let us look at the angels that keep not their first estate.
Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
What does it mean by the phrase first estate?
Does it mean that Adam's first estate was in the heavenlies?
Not according to the scriptures that tell us Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and that he is of the earth earthy.
So if Jude is actually in reference to man how can the first estate be reconciled with the fact that Adam was of the earth earthy?
The answer lies in GRACE, Adam was created in a STATE of GRACE, this was mans FIRST ESTATE, an estate where although sin was in the world it was not imputed.
AFTER Adam was disobedient, his disobedience caused him to fall from GRACE.
Thus Christ came to reconcile us back to our earlier statehood, and we now by His death are in the same STATE that Adam was created in.
However now that we have been reconciled by His death we are to go on to perfection by His life, which is a little off topic, but hey I wanted to say it anyways. :happygrin:
Anyway I hope this is of some help to others who are looking into this.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PMSo how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
I agree that God worketh no evil in the sense that nothing God does is evil. I do not agree that God never does something active which causes evil to increase. For example, God TOLD Satan to go smite Job. God GAVE Paul a thorn in the flesh which was a messenger of Satan. God was not working evil in either case, but Satan was working evil in both cases and God DID something active in both cases to cause it.
QuoteEvil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good. Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity". And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Throughout scripture I see many examples of God actively doing something such that evil increases for His purposes. For example, God SENT this destructive army. God even calls it His Own army.
- Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
QuoteThus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
1. God is not working evil in my view of things either.
2. Yes, in all cases the evil desires in the heart of men or spirit beings is orginating and bringing forth evil
3. But it seems that God deliberatley creates circumstances in which God knows that an evil heart will come to fruition.
--- God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job..." knowing what that would lead to in Satan's heart.
--- God gave Joseph a dream, knowing he'd tell the dream to his brothers, knowing they would become jealous, knowing they would seek to kill hiu.
--- God hardened pharoahs heart. etc.
4. In no case is God manipulating the mind or will in some supernatural way to puppeteer someone into doing evil.
Ethically, how is there really any difference between "withdrawing protection" vs taking some other action such that evil increases? How are these any different from an ethical standpoint?
1. I am holding a shield that protects mankind from deadly radiation of the sun and I withdraw it and everyone perishes
2. I sent a comet to the earth and all mankind perishes.
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.
It is GOOD for a man to bear the yoke of His youth. Therefore it is GOOD to be forced by God to reap what you sow. So God has no problem taking credit for the reaping which includes an experience of evil that God raises up.
QuoteDo we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Yes, I do see the same principal there. But God's wrath there was likened to the waters of Noah which God actively caused.
Bob, you said.......
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.
So Good!
My 2 cents is kind of what you are saying Bob. If someone is being raped in a parking lot and I am there and I have the means to stop it and don't then I am as guilty of the crime as the one actually doing the deed. Now I know God is way beyond my perception of what is right and wrong because of your quote above but it is impossible for me to say God is not active in the works of evil, if nothing else, by association.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2009, 02:25:32 PM
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok. Makes what, Okay?
If someone is being raped in a parking lot and I am there and I have the means to stop it and don't then I am as guilty of the crime as the one actually doing the deed. Now I know God is way beyond my perception of what is right and wrong because of your quote above but it is impossible for me to say God is not active in the works of evil, if nothing else, by association.
Sounds familiar, but it was two girls who were fifteen years of age, and eleven male perpetrator's (rapists), in their late twenties and mid-thirties. Although, those are kinder words than they deserve.
Not guilty by association, but was prepared beforehand (U.S. Army, Special Forces),
as intervention was inevitable – and required!
It is the heart of man that is evil, else, there would be no need of Christ Jesus, either!peacemaker
Quote from: bobf on March 24, 2009, 01:51:51 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 19, 2009, 09:26:20 PMSo how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
I agree that God worketh no evil in the sense that nothing God does is evil. I do not agree that God never does something active which causes evil to increase. For example, God TOLD Satan to go smite Job. God GAVE Paul a thorn in the flesh which was a messenger of Satan. God was not working evil in either case, but Satan was working evil in both cases and God DID something active in both cases to cause it.
QuoteEvil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good. Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity". And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Throughout scripture I see many examples of God actively doing something such that evil increases for His purposes. For example, God SENT this destructive army. God even calls it His Own army.
- Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
QuoteThus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
1. God is not working evil in my view of things either.
2. Yes, in all cases the evil desires in the heart of men or spirit beings is orginating and bringing forth evil
3. But it seems that God deliberatley creates circumstances in which God knows that an evil heart will come to fruition.
--- God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job..." knowing what that would lead to in Satan's heart.
--- God gave Joseph a dream, knowing he'd tell the dream to his brothers, knowing they would become jealous, knowing they would seek to kill hiu.
--- God hardened pharoahs heart. etc.
4. In no case is God manipulating the mind or will in some supernatural way to puppeteer someone into doing evil.
Ethically, how is there really any difference between "withdrawing protection" vs taking some other action such that evil increases? How are these any different from an ethical standpoint?
1. I am holding a shield that protects mankind from deadly radiation of the sun and I withdraw it and everyone perishes
2. I sent a comet to the earth and all mankind perishes.
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.
It is GOOD for a man to bear the yoke of His youth. Therefore it is GOOD to be forced by God to reap what you sow. So God has no problem taking credit for the reaping which includes an experience of evil that God raises up.
QuoteDo we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Yes, I do see the same principal there. But God's wrath there was likened to the waters of Noah which God actively caused.
Hi Bob you and I have been over this before, I respect your view and do think we agree in part, but every point taken from old testament is taken from under a vail and is not seen clearly, they simply did not know the Father because it was Jesus who came to reveal Him.
So for me even though I don't understand all the things that happened in the old testament I take my light from what Jesus revealed of our Father, therefore for me the old testament, even those things that make it look like God did evil things we simply do not understand.
Example: many ET preaches use the old testament about how God did this and that to people to try to prove that as God never changes He will do the same things again. But we know that what seems to many to be ET that the truth actually is different then what the scripture SEEM to say in the new testament, so should we not also look old testament to see what might SEEM like the same?
Bad translations of the scriptures has a lot to do with why people see ET and God doing what seems evil in scripture.
We also know that the scribes changed things in scripture to show forth their own understanding of scripture, Justin Martyr a desciple of John even in his day complained of the scribes changing the scriptures and omitting some scriptures. therefore not everything may be as it SEEMS.
Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, beleived in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.
God bless
Bottom line is that God is good. We have to believe that. Being that is our foundation then we must align all Scripture with this.
So evil must exist for some ultimate good or God, who is responsible for all, would not have allowed it to be.
Why do we work so hard to figure out Scripture? Doesn't all Scripture say that God is good and that we should love Him and our neighbor? Isn't it that simple?
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 25, 2009, 02:12:54 PM
Bottom line is that God is good. We have to believe that. Being that is our foundation then we must align all Scripture with this.
So evil must exist for some ultimate good or God, who is responsible for all, would not have allowed it to be.
Why do we work so hard to figure out Scripture? Doesn't all Scripture say that God is good and that we should love Him and our neighbor? Isn't it that simple?
cp
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on March 25, 2009, 04:28:30 AMHi Bob you and I have been over this before, I respect your view and do think we agree in part, but every point taken from old testament is taken from under a vail and is not seen clearly, they simply did not know the Father because it was Jesus who came to reveal Him.
So for me even though I don't understand all the things that happened in the old testament I take my light from what Jesus revealed of our Father, therefore for me the old testament, even those things that make it look like God did evil things we simply do not understand.
Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, beleived in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.
Hi Scott... thanks for your thoughts.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying here though I wouldn't exactly chalk that up to the OT prophets "knowing in part" since what they wrote was every bit as God-breathed as the NT. I chalk that up to God's deliberate decision to conceal and later unveil the truth. I believe that the whole types and shadows thing is both a OT and NT phenomenon.
But I agree that what God says in the letter can be in direct opposition to what God is really saying.
For example, when God says:
- Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. KJV
- Psalms 137:9 Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks! NLT
- Psalms 137:9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock! YLT
- Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
I reject what the letter says. God does not delight in killing babies. I believe this is a shadow or mini-parable of what God really takes delight in. The "offspring" or "babies" God is concerned with in scripture are the spiritual offspring of the two spiritual seeds.
An exmaple where this phenomenon is not limited to the OT:
- Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
In the letter this says that what Christ is concerned with is executing his enemies. But is what this verse really means? I don't think so. I think this verse is saying essentially the same thing that Psalm 137:9 is saying.
QuoteExample: many ET preaches use the old testament about how God did this and that to people to try to prove that as God never changes He will do the same things again. But we know that what seems to many to be ET that the truth actually is different then what the scripture SEEM to say in the new testament, so should we not also look old testament to see what might SEEM like the same?
Bad translations of the scriptures has a lot to do with why people see ET and God doing what seems evil in scripture.
We also know that the scribes changed things in scripture to show forth their own understanding of scripture, Justin Martyr a desciple of John even in his day complained of the scribes changing the scriptures and omitting some scriptures. therefore not everything may be as it SEEMS.
I don't think bad translations have much to do with this particular issue. If my view were based on a single verse like "I created the waster to destroy" or whatever, you'd have a good point. But it's based on many many verses both OT and NT. While the ET argument is also based on many verses, it is 98% based on the mistranslation or misunderstanding of one word.
As far a deliberate altering of scriptures, I don't think that's a good argument either as it pertains to this issue, because mainstream Christianity and Judaism both believe in free will and mostly favor your view, not mine (i.e. they tend to attribute evil in the world being the result of bad free will choices and not intended by God). So deliberate alterations would not be in my favor.
I think your other argument is the real crux of the issue. What does God really mean when He appears to attribute himself to being the one who chooses for evil to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I think about it, my belief arises from two basic things.
1. The law of sowing and reaping on the disobedient which involves bad stuff happening in the physical realm to bad people.
2. The trying of the faith of the obedient which also involves bad stuff happening in the physical realm to good people.
Both of those "laws" have God as their source. Both can be found in NT and OT. Both involve the "use" of evil stuff happening.
For example of #2, when God decided to give Paul a thorn in the flesh, how can I escape the conclusion that God intended for evil to occur?
1. God gave Paul the thorn in the flesh.
2. "Gave" is an active word.
3. A reason is stated for God giving Paul's thorn, which shows that God intended it.
4. The thorn was a messenger of Satan.
5. The messenger of Satan was doing evil to Paul.
So I can not escape the conclusion that God preferred for Paul to experience evil instead of not experiencing it. God could have chosen for the law of sowing and reaping to catch up with all the messengers of evil and wiped them out, leaving Paul to experience only blessings of His obedience.
Maybe you agree with me in the above instance that God intended evil to increase towards Paul when God could have eliminated it. Maybe our only disagreement revolves around our prior discussion of whether God always intended it to be like this or whether God is only now making the best of a bad situation that God never indended to be.
Blessings,
Bob
QuotePsalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
first thing that came to my mind was. OUR ROCK. :thumbsup:
blessings.
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on March 25, 2009, 06:07:53 PM
QuotePsalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
first thing that came to my mind was. OUR ROCK. :thumbsup:
blessings.
chuckt
Amen chuck!
Quote from: chuckt on March 25, 2009, 06:07:53 PM
QuotePsalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
first thing that came to my mind was. OUR ROCK. :thumbsup:
blessings.
chuckt
The Divine Fox is at it again! Gotta love our God!!!!
cp
crushed and ground to powder by the ROCK, mixed with living water made a new lump!!
gotta love it.
peace
chuckt
Quote from: bobf on March 25, 2009, 06:05:21 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 25, 2009, 04:28:30 AMHi Bob you and I have been over this before, I respect your view and do think we agree in part, but every point taken from old testament is taken from under a vail and is not seen clearly, they simply did not know the Father because it was Jesus who came to reveal Him.
So for me even though I don't understand all the things that happened in the old testament I take my light from what Jesus revealed of our Father, therefore for me the old testament, even those things that make it look like God did evil things we simply do not understand.
Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, beleived in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.
Hi Scott... thanks for your thoughts.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying here though I wouldn't exactly chalk that up to the OT prophets "knowing in part" since what they wrote was every bit as God-breathed as the NT. I chalk that up to God's deliberate decision to conceal and later unveil the truth. I believe that the whole types and shadows thing is both a OT and NT phenomenon.
But I agree that what God says in the letter can be in direct opposition to what God is really saying.
For example, when God says:- Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. KJV
- Psalms 137:9 Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks! NLT
- Psalms 137:9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock! YLT
- Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
I reject what the letter says. God does not delight in killing babies. I believe this is a shadow or mini-parable of what God really takes delight in. The "offspring" or "babies" God is concerned with in scripture are the spiritual offspring of the two spiritual seeds.
An exmaple where this phenomenon is not limited to the OT:
- Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
In the letter this says that what Christ is concerned with is executing his enemies. But is what this verse really means? I don't think so. I think this verse is saying essentially the same thing that Psalm 137:9 is saying.
QuoteExample: many ET preaches use the old testament about how God did this and that to people to try to prove that as God never changes He will do the same things again. But we know that what seems to many to be ET that the truth actually is different then what the scripture SEEM to say in the new testament, so should we not also look old testament to see what might SEEM like the same?
Bad translations of the scriptures has a lot to do with why people see ET and God doing what seems evil in scripture.
We also know that the scribes changed things in scripture to show forth their own understanding of scripture, Justin Martyr a desciple of John even in his day complained of the scribes changing the scriptures and omitting some scriptures. therefore not everything may be as it SEEMS.
I don't think bad translations have much to do with this particular issue. If my view were based on a single verse like "I created the waster to destroy" or whatever, you'd have a good point. But it's based on many many verses both OT and NT. While the ET argument is also based on many verses, it is 98% based on the mistranslation or misunderstanding of one word.
As far a deliberate altering of scriptures, I don't think that's a good argument either as it pertains to this issue, because mainstream Christianity and Judaism both believe in free will and mostly favor your view, not mine (i.e. they tend to attribute evil in the world being the result of bad free will choices and not intended by God). So deliberate alterations would not be in my favor.
I think your other argument is the real crux of the issue. What does God really mean when He appears to attribute himself to being the one who chooses for evil to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I think about it, my belief arises from two basic things.
1. The law of sowing and reaping on the disobedient which involves bad stuff happening in the physical realm to bad people.
2. The trying of the faith of the obedient which also involves bad stuff happening in the physical realm to good people.
Both of those "laws" have God as their source. Both can be found in NT and OT. Both involve the "use" of evil stuff happening.
For example of #2, when God decided to give Paul a thorn in the flesh, how can I escape the conclusion that God intended for evil to occur?
1. God gave Paul the thorn in the flesh.
2. "Gave" is an active word.
3. A reason is stated for God giving Paul's thorn, which shows that God intended it.
4. The thorn was a messenger of Satan.
5. The messenger of Satan was doing evil to Paul.
So I can not escape the conclusion that God preferred for Paul to experience evil instead of not experiencing it. God could have chosen for the law of sowing and reaping to catch up with all the messengers of evil and wiped them out, leaving Paul to experience only blessings of His obedience.
Maybe you agree with me in the above instance that God intended evil to increase towards Paul when God could have eliminated it. Maybe our only disagreement revolves around our prior discussion of whether God always intended it to be like this or whether God is only now making the best of a bad situation that God never indended to be.
Blessings,
Bob
You know, this last bit of your post reminds me of an author I heard speak once (can't think of his name off the top of my head, Don something. He wrote Blue like Jazz). Anyway, he likened the whole sin/ fall and redemption thing between God and man to God writing a great story. One of the elements of a great story, is that you've got a protagonist and an antagonist, and one of the goals or devices in creating a good story, is that there has to be some tension created that needs to be resolved. The protagonist can't just float through the story without some kind of opposition to drive the plot. You can't have a great story of redemption or otherwise without this.
Anyway, when I heard this, it made perfect sense to me. It addresses in a very easy to understand way, the problem of evil, and why it exists in God's grand plan.
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
Quote from: Doc on March 25, 2009, 07:54:40 PM
You know, this last bit of your post reminds me of an author I heard speak once (can't think of his name off the top of my head, Don something. He wrote Blue like Jazz). Anyway, he likened the whole sin/ fall and redemption thing between God and man to God writing a great story. One of the elements of a great story, is that you've got a protagonist and an antagonist, and one of the goals or devices in creating a good story, is that there has to be some tension created that needs to be resolved. The protagonist can't just float through the story without some kind of opposition to drive the plot. You can't have a great story of redemption or otherwise without this.
Anyway, when I heard this, it made perfect sense to me. It addresses in a very easy to understand way, the problem of evil, and why it exists in God's grand plan.
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
I really like that Doc.
cp
QuoteBut I agree that what God says in the letter can be in direct opposition to what God is really saying.
For example, when God says:
• Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. KJV
• Psalms 137:9 Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks! NLT
• Psalms 137:9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock! YLT
• Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
I reject what the letter says. God does not delight in killing babies. I believe this is a shadow or mini-parable of what God really takes delight in. The "offspring" or "babies" God is concerned with in scripture are the spiritual offspring of the two spiritual seeds.
An exmaple where this phenomenon is not limited to the OT:
• Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
In the letter this says that what Christ is concerned with is executing his enemies. But is what this verse really means? I don't think so. I think this verse is saying essentially the same thing that Psalm 137:9 is saying.
Hi Bob, I agree whole heartedly here, and that is why I said they did not know the Father except in shadow.
What they were told to do by God they took literally and dashed the little ones against the stones, then wrote in the scriptures the reason they did this was because God TOLD THEM TO DO IT.
But that was not what God was really saying to them.
They took what was spiritually spoken then went out and killed in the NAME of God thinking to do God a service.
And people reading the scriptures still do this today, seeing God says something in the scriptures that is contrary to His nature and saying see GOD DID IT or THIS IS OF GOD. Thus attributing any EVIL or SIN to God in any fashion or by way of IMPLICATION as so many do imo is understanding things still after the shadow.
Because implying after any fashion God has something to do with EVIL is saying in effect that in God is the essence of EVIL as well as the essence of GOOD. These scriptures (below) really say it ALL for me Bob.
Matthew 7:17-18
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Like I said brother I cannot explain it all, I can only share the light that is given me, but this I know Bob, God is a GOOD TREE and can ONLY BARE GOOD FRUIT; therefore, if any EVIL is seen anywhere we know that it CANNOT be of GOD.
I also think part of our problem, is that we try to judge what's good and evil, trying to make ourselves like God. The truth though, is that good and evil are both from the same tree. The tree that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from!
We are to eat from the tree of life.
Quote from: claypot on March 25, 2009, 02:12:54 PM
So evil must exist for some ultimate good or God, who is responsible for all, would not have allowed it to be.
Why do we work so hard to figure out Scripture?
Doesn't all Scripture say that God is good and that we should love Him and our neighbor?
Isn't it that simple? :gthumbsup:
"Man feels pain when he comes in contact with boiling water, and learns by experience to temper the water he uses."God already knows good/evil, and the exact temperature!
peacemaker
Doc and PM,
I am swimming in a river of delight as I read your words. Amazing how sometimes a very few words can do some very big things!
God putting a very delectible (irresistable???) tree basically in front of Adam and telling him not to eat of it is one very interesting move on Gods part, to say the least. Again, Divine Fox comes to mind!
cp
Quote from: pneuma on March 26, 2009, 12:23:54 AMHi Bob, I agree whole heartedly here, and that is why I said they did not know the Father except in shadow.
What they were told to do by God they took literally and dashed the little ones against the stones, then wrote in the scriptures the reason they did this was because God TOLD THEM TO DO IT.
But that was not what God was really saying to them.
They took what was spiritually spoken then went out and killed in the NAME of God thinking to do God a service.
And people reading the scriptures still do this today, seeing God says something in the scriptures that is contrary to His nature and saying see GOD DID IT or THIS IS OF GOD. Thus attributing any EVIL or SIN to God in any fashion or by way of IMPLICATION as so many do imo is understanding things still after the shadow.
Because implying after any fashion God has something to do with EVIL is saying in effect that in God is the essence of EVIL as well as the essence of GOOD. These scriptures (below) really say it ALL for me Bob.
Matthew 7:17-18
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Like I said brother I cannot explain it all, I can only share the light that is given me, but this I know Bob, God is a GOOD TREE and can ONLY BARE GOOD FRUIT; therefore, if any EVIL is seen anywhere we know that it CANNOT be of GOD.
Well stated Scott. I've never considered the possibility that Israel took literally what God intended
for them to take spiritually. I'll have to ponder that one. The way I've always looked at it is that God intended us to see the allegory, but not them.
What I see in the second half of your post is a leap of logic (a very natural one) in assuming that a process which is truly good and will yield only good fruit, can not temporarily contain within it the presence of bad fruit. The murder of Christ was bad fruit. Yet God deliberately chose for that bad fruit to come to maturity, rather than pruning it off. But still God did not BARE that bad fruit though He chose for it to mature. The fruit God is yielding is not the absence of evil (though ultimately that will be). The fruit God is yielding is the forming of Christ in us, which includes the power to overcome evil with good.
If I stick strictly to your logic regarding good trees and good fruit I'm still led to the same conclusion that I already believe:
1. The good tree God created everything.
2. God brought forth each and every man.
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
In short: The good tree God brought forth bad trees which brought borth bad fruit.
I see it kind of like this Scott. If a perfect parent pefectly raises an infant up to adulthood, that process might perfectly include the "terrible twos" where the child by nature is selfish, wants it and wants it now, throws tantrums etc., and receives a rod of discipline. That child is not a good tree while throwing tantrums, but the process as a whole will bare good fruit and the creator of that process is a good tree.
Another analogy. Suppose you have a perfect piano teacher. She starts by actually forming an imperfect student who can't play at all. And then she trains the student through years of practice. During training the student makes all kinds of mistakes. But that's intended, because this struggle towards perfection actually becomes part of the musical interpretation and is needed to form the pefect piano player. So while the teacher and process are perfect, we could point to the iterim mistakes as bad fruit.
God bless,
Bob
Psalm 137:8-9 (Concordant Literal Version) . . .
Daughter of Babylon, the devastator,
Happy is he who shall repay you
With your dealing which you dealt to us.
Happy is he who shall hold and shatter your descendants
Against the crag.
Jerusalem had been razed and they were deported and enslaved. Verse 1 says:
By the streams of Babylon,
There we sat down and lamented,
While we remembered Zion.
Quote from: Doc on March 25, 2009, 07:54:40 PMYou know, this last bit of your post reminds me of an author I heard speak once (can't think of his name off the top of my head, Don something. He wrote Blue like Jazz). Anyway, he likened the whole sin/ fall and redemption thing between God and man to God writing a great story. One of the elements of a great story, is that you've got a protagonist and an antagonist, and one of the goals or devices in creating a good story, is that there has to be some tension created that needs to be resolved. The protagonist can't just float through the story without some kind of opposition to drive the plot. You can't have a great story of redemption or otherwise without this.
Anyway, when I heard this, it made perfect sense to me. It addresses in a very easy to understand way, the problem of evil, and why it exists in God's grand plan.
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
Thanks Doc... I think that is a great analogy to the way I see it. I see that description is a common theme running throughout scripture and to me that is astounding evidence that the scriptures are true.
Quote from: bobf on March 26, 2009, 09:37:38 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 25, 2009, 07:54:40 PMYou know, this last bit of your post reminds me of an author I heard speak once (can't think of his name off the top of my head, Don something. He wrote Blue like Jazz). Anyway, he likened the whole sin/ fall and redemption thing between God and man to God writing a great story. One of the elements of a great story, is that you've got a protagonist and an antagonist, and one of the goals or devices in creating a good story, is that there has to be some tension created that needs to be resolved. The protagonist can't just float through the story without some kind of opposition to drive the plot. You can't have a great story of redemption or otherwise without this.
Anyway, when I heard this, it made perfect sense to me. It addresses in a very easy to understand way, the problem of evil, and why it exists in God's grand plan.
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
Thanks Doc... I think that is a great analogy to the way I see it. I see that description is a common theme running throughout scripture and to me that is astounding evidence that the scriptures are true.
Yes, I also think it's great evidence of that. I also think it's great evidence that God never had a plan B.
QuoteIf I stick strictly to your logic regarding good trees and good fruit I'm still led to the same conclusion that I already believe:
1. The good tree God created everything.
2. God brought forth each and every man.
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
In short: The good tree God brought forth bad trees which brought borth bad fruit.
Hi Bob I know from past convos with you that this is the way you see it, but thats not strickly sticking to my logic of the good trees good fruit.
God created everything and He said it was GOOD; therefore, the trees in their original design could only bare good fruit.
So what happend to these trees that caused them to bring forth evil fruit?
An enemy crept in and sowed tares among the wheat.
God did not sow the evil in man the devil did this, when man had carnal knowledge ( not talking about physical sex, but spiritual sex) with the serpent the fruit they produced was evil.
Thus the evil fruit is not Gods doing or even remotly associated with anything God created.
So lets look at your 4 point again
1. The good tree God created everything.
1. The good tree God created everything GOOD
2. God brought forth each and every man.
2. God brought forth each and every GOOD man, the serpent brought forth the OLD MAN
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
3 Each and every man brought forth bad fruit, because they cleaved unto the serpent and not unto God.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
4 Each and every man BECAME a bad tree.
NONE of the evil that comes forth from man was of God's design, for God created EVERYTHING GOOD and was pleased with His creation.
Quote from: pneuma on March 27, 2009, 12:02:10 AM
QuoteIf I stick strictly to your logic regarding good trees and good fruit I'm still led to the same conclusion that I already believe:
1. The good tree God created everything.
2. God brought forth each and every man.
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
In short: The good tree God brought forth bad trees which brought borth bad fruit.
Hi Bob I know from past convos with you that this is the way you see it, but thats not strickly sticking to my logic of the good trees good fruit.
God created everything and He said it was GOOD; therefore, the trees in their original design could only bare good fruit.
So what happend to these trees that caused them to bring forth evil fruit?
An enemy crept in and sowed tares among the wheat.
God did not sow the evil in man the devil did this, when man had carnal knowledge ( not talking about physical sex, but spiritual sex) with the serpent the fruit they produced was evil.
Thus the evil fruit is not Gods doing or even remotly associated with anything God created.
So lets look at your 4 point again
1. The good tree God created everything.
1. The good tree God created everything GOOD
2. God brought forth each and every man.
2. God brought forth each and every GOOD man, the serpent brought forth the OLD MAN
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
3 Each and every man brought forth bad fruit, because they cleaved unto the serpent and not unto God.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
4 Each and every man BECAME a bad tree.
NONE of the evil that comes forth from man was of God's design, for God created EVERYTHING GOOD and was pleased with His creation.
Pneuma, I don't want to get off on the topic of God's association with evil but I must comment.............
I, of course, agree that God can't and doesn't do anything bad or wrong. Could it be that evil is not what we think it is? Joseph having all the evil done to him by his brothers and then we are told they meant it for evil, which I take to mean moral badness or selfish gain badness, yet God meant it (the evil?) for good. God's purpose with evil in this case was to do good.
Hmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud here.
Evil is part of existence. God is responsible for all in existence. I'm not saying God does evil at least how we think of evil. Could it be that evil is amoral? Isn't evil referred to as a smashing or breaking? There is nothing wrong with breaking something unless it is done maliciously.
I think I'll stop and see what you and others think
cp
Quote from: pneuma on March 27, 2009, 12:02:10 AM
Hi Bob I know from past convos with you that this is the way you see it, but thats not strickly sticking to my logic of the good trees good fruit.
God created everything and He said it was GOOD; therefore, the trees in their original design could only bare good fruit.
So what happend to these trees that caused them to bring forth evil fruit?
An enemy crept in and sowed tares among the wheat.
God did not sow the evil in man the devil did this, when man had carnal knowledge ( not talking about physical sex, but spiritual sex) with the serpent the fruit they produced was evil.
Thus the evil fruit is not Gods doing or even remotly associated with anything God created.
So lets look at your 4 point again
1. The good tree God created everything.
1. The good tree God created everything GOOD
2. God brought forth each and every man.
2. God brought forth each and every GOOD man, the serpent brought forth the OLD MAN
3. Each and every man brought forth bad fruit.
3 Each and every man brought forth bad fruit, because they cleaved unto the serpent and not unto God.
4. Each and every man was a bad tree.
4 Each and every man BECAME a bad tree.
Ok, then good trees become bad trees. Then wouldn't you have to say that the good trees God created were corruptible? So it was VERY GOOD that God deliberately created corruptible trees?
I can't recall if you told me this before. Do you believe God created Satan?
QuoteNONE of the evil that comes forth from man was of God's design, for God created EVERYTHING GOOD and was pleased with His creation.
To this again I would again point out that many of God's very good plans throughout scripture include evil happening, so I see no reason to conclude that an original plan of this variety can not be very good.
Couldn't evil and good have 2 sides to them?
If I help an old lady across the street (a good) but I do it for money then my good is not the same kind of good as if I help her across the street out of love and respect for her.
Same with evil. If I shoot someone because I just don't like this someone then that is evil of the worst sort, immoral, gross and nasty. Now if I am a policeman and shoot someone (an evil) in the line of duty then this is not a bad form of evil.
You might say that a policeman shooting someone in the line of duty is not evil but again I think evil means to break or to smash. It is not automatically something immoral or bad.
The policeman did something good with evil and is totally honorable in doing so.
Again, just thinking here.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 27, 2009, 12:50:24 AMGod's purpose with evil in this case was to do good.
Hmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud here.
Evil is part of existence. God is responsible for all in existence. I'm not saying God does evil at least how we think of evil. Could it be that evil is amoral? Isn't evil referred to as a smashing or breaking? There is nothing wrong with breaking something unless it is done maliciously.
I think I'll stop and see what you and others think
That's exactly how I see it.
Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger sent with evil intent by Satan, all sent with good intent by God.
Christ's crucifixion was an evil plan of men, all planned by God for good.
These are good plans by God containing within them bad plans of others.
This goes back to my last post #135. Both good and evil are from the same tree that God placed in the middle of the garden. This is the tree that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat from, even though it could be argued that God created that tree, or at least put it in the middle of the garden.
We have to stop judging between good and evil, trying to choose the good over the evil. We have to let God be God and let him decide what is supposed to be, rather than trying to be God. Our responsibility is to shun the tree of good and evil and only eat from the tree of life.
When the serpent tempted Eve, saying 'knowing good and evil you will become like God', She should've said, "but we are already like God, for we are made in His image".
Adam and Eve by their mistake of disobedience, brought evil into the world. But that evil already had to exist somewhere for it to be brought in. If I bring something into my house from outside, do I create that thing I brought in by the act of bringing it in, or did it already exist? When they fell, God said; "the man has become like us, knowing good and evil".
The scripture is clear that God does not do evil, but it is equally clear that He does create it and use it for His purposes.
If we go with the thought that God created good and evil then we could say it is what is done with good and evil that makes the difference. God, of course, did no wrong in creating evil just like He did no wrong in creating good, obviously. It is what we do with these two 'creations' that determine right or wrong.
Bob, I know this question is for Pneuma but I want to play with it if I may. You asked if God created Satan.
I see Satan as representing an adversarial nature. By creating creatures that can have friendly natures God created creatures that can have adversarial natures. I have created the waster to destroy or I form the serpent with an outstretched hand, it is said of God. Indirectly God created Satan, an adversary. This is not doing an immoral evil, it is just an outcome of creating something, like if you construct a house, you will probably end up with a shadow from the house yet you did not create the shadow.
cp
Did someone say here that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life are the same tree? Pneuma?
Anyway, could it be what I am trying to get into focus here........that OK there is a tree......good and evil/life. Now if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good or evil in our lives but we do them in selfish ways then we die yet if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good and evil in selfless God fearing ways then we live.
God said don't eat of the tree of good and evil lest you die. Could he have been saying that to eat of it in a wrong manner is death yet to eat of it properly is life?
Then God blocks the way to the tree of life when it is used wrongly because once we do wrong a seed is planted that will corrupt any good we try to do. God protected the tree of life with flaming swords...........It is kept pure, Christlike, it is a Tree we need within yet it is a Tree that will not be corrupted, God will see to that! It can now only be accessed by Divine appointment as it were.
cp
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
QuoteI, of course, agree that God can't and doesn't do anything bad or wrong. Could it be that evil is not what we think it is? Joseph having all the evil done to him by his brothers and then we are told they meant it for evil, which I take to mean moral badness or selfish gain badness, yet God meant it (the evil?) for good. God's purpose with evil in this case was to do good.
Hi Clay, God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him, New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words has this meaning for MEANT.
, khaw-shab'; a prim. root; prop. to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (lit.)
to weaveSo read those scriptures again with the literal translation of meant in place and we have
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God weaved it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Septuagint has it
Ye took counsel against me for evil, but God took counsel for me for good, that the matter might be as it is to-day, and much people might be fed
Thus showing that it does not matter what evil men do, God can take that evil and make good come out of it.
He is the only one who can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
QuoteEvil is part of existence. God is responsible for all in existence.
God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.
QuoteI'm not saying God does evil at least how we think of evil. Could it be that evil is amoral? Isn't evil referred to as a smashing or breaking? There is nothing wrong with breaking something unless it is done maliciously.
I think I'll stop and see what you and others think
As I already stated bro evil comes about when God turns His back and gives men up to their OWN desires, NOT HIS desires.
QuoteDid someone say here that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life are the same tree? Pneuma?
That is close to what I have said before brother, if I remember correctly I have stated that the TOKOGE and the tree of life have the same roots as both were in the midst of the garden.
QuoteAnyway, could it be what I am trying to get into focus here........that OK there is a tree......good and evil/life. Now if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good or evil in our lives but we do them in selfish ways then we die yet if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good and evil in selfless God fearing ways then we live.
God said don't eat of the tree of good and evil lest you die. Could he have been saying that to eat of it in a wrong manner is death yet to eat of it properly is life?
Then God blocks the way to the tree of life when it is used wrongly because once we do wrong a seed is planted that will corrupt any good we try to do. God protected the tree of life with flaming swords...........It is kept pure, Christlike, it is a Tree we need within yet it is a Tree that will not be corrupted, God will see to that! It can now only be accessed by Divine appointment as it were.
Here's the thing about the TOKOGE bro, it is a GOOD tree, there is NOTHING EVIL in the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
The Evil came in upon the breaking of the commandment "thou shalt not", evil did not come in because of what was in the tree itself. People tend to think there was something evil in the fruit of the tree, but this is not the case because strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised
to discern both good and evil. Thou shalt not is not only a commandment telling us NOT to do something, it is also a promise that if in Christ we will NOT do such and such.
There are TWO ways of gaining the knowledge of good and evil, one through disobedience and one through obedience. Adam gained this knowledge through disobedience, Jesus gained this knowledge through obedience. Thus there is NOTHING wrong or evil with the fruit of this tree, which fruit is the knowledge of good and evil. So yes we are to eat of the tree but the manner of eating of it brings about the consequences, after the manner of Adam, death, after the manner of Jesus, life. But the manner of eating is OUR life and death choice that God gives every man.
QuoteOk, then good trees become bad trees. Then wouldn't you have to say that the good trees God created were corruptible? So it was VERY GOOD that God deliberately created corruptible trees?
Hi Bob, Every FREE being (except God) can be corrupted, but that does not mean God wanted or planned for corrupted beings.
Adam's WAY (disobedience and death) are not a part of Gods WAYS, my ways are NOT your ways, Gods WAYS have always been through Jesus Christ who is the WAY. We have to take our eye off of Adams WAY and put them squarely on Jesus Christ to understand Gods WAYS. And it was because God created everything free that God said it was very good.
QuoteI can't recall if you told me this before. Do you believe God created Satan?
NO, satan created himself. By that I mean by his disobedience or some other sin he made himself what he is, the adversary.
QuoteTo this again I would again point out that many of God's very good plans throughout scripture include evil happening, so I see no reason to conclude that an original plan of this variety can not be very good.
And I would say as long as people view it that way they are looking at Gods WAYS through Adam and not through Christ, because a PLAN is a WAY and Christ alone is the WAY.
QuotePaul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger sent with evil intent by Satan, all sent with good intent by God.
Christ's crucifixion was an evil plan of men, all planned by God for good.
These are good plans by God containing within them bad plans of others.
Like I said Bob I cannot explain it all, but could these things not be like what happened with Joseph? Could they not be God weaving (read my post to Clay) the evil of men unto good? After all the story of Joseph is really the story of Christ in shadow is it not?
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
OK Pneuma, now I'm gonna lay it on ya! Just kidding Bro, you are teaching me a lot but in my ignorance (not being falsly humble here, just a fact!) but in my ignorance my mind keeps coming up with a couple things from what I hear you saying.
You say and I totally agree that God does no wrong ever.
You say....
God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.
and
God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him
Two things always pop up in my head when I hear you talk like this.
1. I was raised to take responsibility for all I did and even all I started. In other words if I subtly started a fight between 2 of my siblings and I kind of backed out I would still be punished if I was found out. Even though I did not get into the actual fight, I was responsible, it was my doing.
2. When you say that it was Josephs brothers and it was the person or Satan who did the evil and God had nothing to do with it I hear in the back of my mind the conversation God had with Adam and Eve. When he asked Adam if he ate of the tree Adam said Eve really was the guilty one and when God asked Eve about it, she blamed the serpent. Even though in a sense they were correct, in another sense they were not. They should have taken full responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
Are you saying that God is telling us that it is, in the ultimate sense, someone else's fault for the evil and even the doing of the evil?
Now I am just saying that the buck stops with God. If there is evil anywhere in His creation He is responsible and I think, more than responsible. Same with any good, God gets all the credit.
Now if what I think is true then I got to believe we are seeing evil in a wrong light. Evil is not a bad thing ultimately, it is an avenue to good. God brings good out of evil.
Don't want to say more right now as I may have set myself up for a fall but I do want and need your thoughts on this.
cp
:cloud9: Good posts pneuma..... :thumbsup: you have a knack for explaining things in simplicity (I'm still learning to do that :mblush:).
God gave me something pertaining to that Hebrew word that means to weave. Something woven is in it's essence, lots of little CROSSES where the threads intersect. The Word that is alive is as threads that the Master weaver weaves into the very fabric of our being as we overcome whatever is adversarial against those scriptures, the goal being that our renewed soul is so intertwined with His Spirit that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.
It becomes our garment of righteousness, the very covering of Christ Himself. When completed and joined with another, it becomes the robe of Mechisedek, no beginning and no end because all has been swallowed up and changed in Him.
They rent their garments when someone died; Satan comes to do the very same thing, ie. rend our covering if he can by getting us to be disobedient and listen to him instead, thus tearing an opening in what God has woven which is incorruptible and timeless, into something that is corruptible and subject to time and therefore subject to death.
This is why the veil was rent because what it represented, was our covering, Christ's veil which was rent which necessitated another covering, this time of Spirit only, we were to be covered (baptized) in the Holy Ghost. This is the same pattern in the garden, only in reverse. One covering was rent, and another covering was supplied of animal skins, ie. the carnal beastly nature's covering.
There's more that ties in with this also; Elijah sat by the river Chebar, which comes from that same root word, if I recall. God was busy weaving His nature into Elijah there. And also Samson's covering was symbolized by his braided or woven hair (glory), which speaks of Christ's garment also. He fell thru the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, just like they did in the garden. Blessings....
PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.
Satan was a liar before the garden.
Secrets of Enoch 31;4 the devil is the evil spirit of
the lower places.As a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens,as his name was Satanail,thus he became DIFFERENT
from the angels,but his nature did not change his intelligence
as far as his understanding righteous and sinful things.
And he understood his condemnation and the sin he had sinned before, THEREFORE HE CONCEIVED THOUGHT AGAINST ADAM
IN SUCH FORM HE ENTICED AND SEDUCED EVE, BUT DID NOT TOUCH ADAM
Sheila
:cloud9: What is Sotona?
Hi Card,
It's another name for 'make his-self an adversary"
Quote from: Cardinal on March 30, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
:cloud9: What is Sotona?
Beelzebub (Ba'al) prince of demons; Lord of the Flies or dung, and the god of the Philistines.
It is who the Pharisees accused Jesus of being, because he cast out demons?
peacemaker
Quote from: Cardinal on March 29, 2009, 05:41:38 PM
PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.
I like your point Card. I believe God is often more proactive than just turning His back. Who sent the flood?
:cloud9: Well, I guess I can see pneuma's point also this way, and maybe that's not even the way he means it, but here goes. God turning His back, to me, does not indicate no activity on His part, but rather that He has given us over for a season to principle things that He already had set in motion, ie. like what you sow, you reap. In the judgment of this reaping, which is unto victory, it causes the person to come to repentance (hopefully) and to seek HIS FACE again.
So in one sense He had nothing to do with it because it was our own choice that initiated what comes next, yet He lowered us to experience the bondage of corruption that we might learn obedience thru the things that we suffer. My :2c: Blessings....
I personally think it can be both, not necessarily just one or the other...IMO, He allows us to reap what we sow, He rains on the just and the unjust, and again, where did the flood come from? I really don't believe God just turned His back so it rained :mpardon:.
:cloud9: I think He prophesied it thru the naming of Methuselah. And then when they didn't repent after Noah's 120 years of preaching, they reaped what they sowed. My :2c: Blessings...
Yes, I agree, they reaped what they sowed...but did they make it rain :bigGrin: ? Guess I'm simple, but I believe God "turned on the faucet" :happy3:. Well sis, we can ask Him when we get there.
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc. Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He
is "Lord of heaven and earth" :thumbsup:.
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
QuoteOK Pneuma, now I'm gonna lay it on ya! Just kidding Bro, you are teaching me a lot but in my ignorance (not being falsly humble here, just a fact!) but in my ignorance my mind keeps coming up with a couple things from what I hear you saying.
You say and I totally agree that God does no wrong ever.
You say....
God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.
and
God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him
Two things always pop up in my head when I hear you talk like this.
1. I was raised to take responsibility for all I did and even all I started. In other words if I subtly started a fight between 2 of my siblings and I kind of backed out I would still be punished if I was found out. Even though I did not get into the actual fight, I was responsible, it was my doing.
2. When you say that it was Josephs brothers and it was the person or Satan who did the evil and God had nothing to do with it I hear in the back of my mind the conversation God had with Adam and Eve. When he asked Adam if he ate of the tree Adam said Eve really was the guilty one and when God asked Eve about it, she blamed the serpent. Even though in a sense they were correct, in another sense they were not. They should have taken full responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
Are you saying that God is telling us that it is, in the ultimate sense, someone else's fault for the evil and even the doing of the evil?
Clay how do you get I am saying someone else is responsible?
I have been and do maintain it is OUR responsibility for sin and death.
I don't lay the blame for my sins on Adam, Eve or the devil and I surely don't lay the blame on God.
If sin and death were Gods PLAN/WAY then God would have been unrighteous in putting man from the garden.
Adam tried to blame God for his disobedience when he said the woman you gave me, gave me the fruit and I did eat, but God would none of that, He judged Adam for what Adam did, He judged Eve for what Eve did and He judged the serpent for what the serpent did.
Quote
Now I am just saying that the buck stops with God. If there is evil anywhere in His creation He is responsible and I think, more than responsible. Same with any good, God gets all the credit.
Clay I realise you and others believe after this fashion, but God said everything He created was GOOD, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat. Do you really believe God gets the credit for what the devil has done? Would that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil? Yet do not the scriptures say there is NO concord between them?
QuoteNow if what I think is true then I got to believe we are seeing evil in a wrong light. Evil is not a bad thing ultimately, it is an avenue to good. God brings good out of evil.
Bro if evil is ultimately good then can we not in all truth state that evil is good and good evil? Yet are we not warned NOT to do that?
I agree good causes good to come out of the evil that we have brought upon OURSELVES,but that far different then saying God does evil to me so that He can do good to me. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Brother Jesus came to do the WORKS of the Father and one of those works was to raise the dead, so if God is the God of the dead then are not Jesus' works contrary to the Fathers?
Quote from: Cardinal on March 29, 2009, 05:41:38 PM
:cloud9: Good posts pneuma..... :thumbsup: you have a knack for explaining things in simplicity (I'm still learning to do that :mblush:).
God gave me something pertaining to that Hebrew word that means to weave. Something woven is in it's essence, lots of little CROSSES where the threads intersect. The Word that is alive is as threads that the Master weaver weaves into the very fabric of our being as we overcome whatever is adversarial against those scriptures, the goal being that our renewed soul is so intertwined with His Spirit that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.
It becomes our garment of righteousness, the very covering of Christ Himself. When completed and joined with another, it becomes the robe of Mechisedek, no beginning and no end because all has been swallowed up and changed in Him.
They rent their garments when someone died; Satan comes to do the very same thing, ie. rend our covering if he can by getting us to be disobedient and listen to him instead, thus tearing an opening in what God has woven which is incorruptible and timeless, into something that is corruptible and subject to time and therefore subject to death.
This is why the veil was rent because what it represented, was our covering, Christ's veil which was rent which necessitated another covering, this time of Spirit only, we were to be covered (baptized) in the Holy Ghost. This is the same pattern in the garden, only in reverse. One covering was rent, and another covering was supplied of animal skins, ie. the carnal beastly nature's covering.
There's more that ties in with this also; Elijah sat by the river Chebar, which comes from that same root word, if I recall. God was busy weaving His nature into Elijah there. And also Samson's covering was symbolized by his braided or woven hair (glory), which speaks of Christ's garment also. He fell thru the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, just like they did in the garden. Blessings....
PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.
Sis good stuff on the weaving, and yes God lower us into bondage of corruption, and that corruption was of our own making, God never planned it that way, tis the potter responding to the clay. He warns and warns and warns again of the consequences that will take place if man does such and such and when man disregards His warnings that which He warned man about will surely come to pass, thus God giving man up to the desires of his own heart.
Quote from: sheila on March 30, 2009, 03:28:06 AM
Satan was a liar before the garden.
Secrets of Enoch 31;4 the devil is the evil spirit of
the lower places.As a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens,as his name was Satanail,thus he became DIFFERENT
from the angels,but his nature did not change his intelligence
as far as his understanding righteous and sinful things.
And he understood his condemnation and the sin he had sinned before, THEREFORE HE CONCEIVED THOUGHT AGAINST ADAM
IN SUCH FORM HE ENTICED AND SEDUCED EVE, BUT DID NOT TOUCH ADAM
Sheila
Sheila I see it more along those lines also, it would explain why sin was in the world before the commandment came but was not imputed unto men.
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2009, 07:57:35 AM
Yes, I agree, they reaped what they sowed...but did they make it rain :bigGrin: ? Guess I'm simple, but I believe God "turned on the faucet" :happy3:. Well sis, we can ask Him when we get there.
I would say yes they made it rain for if they had of repented of THEIR evil the rain never would have come. God gave warning, they would not listen, God gave them what they desired.
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.
But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.
Pneuma, you wrote.....
Clay how do you get I am saying someone else is responsible?
I have been and do maintain it is OUR responsibility for sin and death.
I don't lay the blame for my sins on Adam, Eve or the devil and I surely don't lay the blame on God.
You mis read me Bro. I am seeing that you are saying that it is God that is passing the buck, not you. Are you saying that God is saying in Scripture that it is not He that is responsible for the evil that abounds, but it is the Devil and people?
Pneuma wrote.....
Clay I realise you and others believe after this fashion, but God said everything He created was GOOD, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat. Do you really believe God gets the credit for what the devil has done? Would that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil?
I know there is no darkness in God and in God there can be no wrongful evil yet I am saying that evil only exists by God allowing it and creating the arena for it to live and survive and this makes God responsible and I think more than responsible for evil.
Pneuma........
Bro if evil is ultimately good then can we not in all truth state that evil is good and good evil? Yet are we not warned NOT to do that?
I thought that very thought. I don't think I would say evil is ultimately good. I would say evil is an avenue from which good will ultimately come. Rape is not good, it is an immoral and violent evil. God watches this evil occur several times a week. God has the power to stop any one occurance. He does not. Could it be He sees evil differently than we do?
Pneuma, could we be 'us' without evil? Is this the left hand of God in some mysterious way?
cp
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:41:08 PMHi Bob, Every FREE being (except God) can be corrupted, but that does not mean God wanted or planned for corrupted beings.
We will not be corruptible in the resurrection. So being corruptible is not a necessary ingredient. God chose to do two things which He knew would lead to corruption. God created man corruptible. God allowed Satan into the garden. If I do A & B knowing it will lead to C then C is my plan.
QuoteNO, satan created himself. By that I mean by his disobedience or some other sin he made himself what he is, the adversary.
Then a good tree really can eventually bring forth evil fruit apart from outside influence.
QuoteAdam's WAY (disobedience and death) are not a part of Gods WAYS, my ways are NOT your ways, Gods WAYS have always been through Jesus Christ who is the WAY. We have to take our eye off of Adams WAY and put them squarely on Jesus Christ to understand Gods WAYS. And it was because God created everything free that God said it was very good.
And I would say as long as people view it that way they are looking at Gods WAYS through Adam and not through Christ, because a PLAN is a WAY and Christ alone is the WAY.
But following Christ who is the Way includes facing sin and evil. If God intended for me to EVER FORGIVE then God intended for someone to sin.
- Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me
<br>
- Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
<br>
- 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.
QuoteLike I said Bob I cannot explain it all, but could these things not be like what happened with Joseph? Could they not be God weaving (read my post to Clay) the evil of men unto good? After all the story of Joseph is really the story of Christ in shadow is it not?
Yes I think those are all similar and Jospeh is a foreshadow of both Christ and us. One thing in common with Joseph, Job, Paul and Christ is they all endured the sin of others. I think the view that God was "weaving" that evil into good is a perfectly good way to look at it since God does not do the evil nor does God puppeteer anyone into doing evil. But I don't think "weaving" tells the whole story. I think God intended the evil too.
- If God intended no evil to come Paul's way then why does it say God GAVE it to him? God can not both give evil persecution and not intend it.
- If God intended no evil to come Christ's way then why does it say "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" and "It pleased God to bruise Him"? Why in the world would scripture attribute the bruising of Christ to God if God only weaved that evil into good.
- If God intended Satan not to do evil to Job then why did God say "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"? Why would God give authority to Satan to DO EVIL if God did not intend for him to do it. Intend, not condone.
From some other posts...
QuoteGod never planned it that way, tis the potter responding to the clay. He warns and warns and warns again of the consequences that will take place if man does such and such and when man disregards His warnings that which He warned man about will surely come to pass, thus God giving man up to the desires of his own heart
But none of those warnings & commandments could actually lead to life due to weakness of the flesh.
- Galatians 3:21 ...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
<br>
- Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
Did Adam possess the same weakness of the flesh as we do? If so then that first commandment was incapable of giving life to Adam.
QuoteHe judged Adam for what Adam did, He judged Eve for what Eve did and He judged the serpent for what the serpent did.
Don't we judge two year olds for what they do, even though we know they did make themselves thus?
QuoteWould that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil?
Not at all. In the book of Job, Satan was doing exactly what God planned for him to do, seeing as God told Satan exactly what he could and could not do. Yet God and Satan were not acting in concord. Their motives were miles apart. They were in complete opposition in what they were tyring to accomplish.
If I do exactly what God tells me to do with the opposite intent that God has, am I really acting in concert with God?
What if I do exactly the opposite of what God tells me to do, but with godly intent as Moses did here:
- Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Moses does the opposite of what God told him to do.
- Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 2 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And God repented so to speak.
- Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
I think Moses was acting in corcord with God while Satan was not.
Very Good Points,Bobf
Evidently Our Father found it necessary to include
the necessity of suffering evil in the education of His children.
How else can the victory of Good/love overcoming evil be
manifest? It is evident to me, that He built it in the design
of His creation for HIS OWN PURPOSE. It is also evident
to me, that when He accomplishes His PURPOSE it will
no longer be necessary..and be completely done away with.
Rev 21;4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes.There will
be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,for the old
order of things has passed away. The 'OLD ORDER OF THINGS"
signify to me a plan/design that contained such in it's
implementation. Now, He as the creator..has designed HIS
CREATION BOTH OLD AND NEW and it is we..the creature of
this creation that expierence such..both the old and the new.
What power do we possess to make ourselves? He has told us
that it is HIM himself that forms us. Jesus even spoke the word
that we can do nothing of ourselves..but must remain in Him..
that it is the power of the Spirit of GOD at work and not
we of ourselves that can do a thing. Also, He testified it
was the will of the Father that He come to give life and for the
purpose of the salvation of mankind and the promise of the
coming NEW CREATION AND ORDER WHERE MANKIND WILL
BE A NEW CREATURE AND BE INCORRUPTIBLE AND THERE WILL
BE NO EVIL/ADVERSARY
A complete setting free from the bondage of corruption[sins
law] and a glorious freedom known to the sons of God.
OUR VERY LIFE DEPENDS ON EVERY WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH
He but speaks and it comes to be. The adversary/slanderer
speaks the lie and it's origen is with him. He twists the word of
God and death comes to us when we beleive the lie.
When all is said and done....the WORD of OUR FATHER WILL
HAVE A PRECIOUSNESS AND REVERENCE TO US THAT WAS
NOT THERE IN THE BEGINNING.THERE IS A WHOLE NEW
RESPECT AND REGARD THAT IS BEING DEVELOPED IN MANKIND
THROUGH THIS WHOLE GOOD/EVIL CONTRAST FOR THE TRUTH
AND SUMPREMCY OF THE WORD OF GOD SPOKEN TO US
His WORD is of more value than Gold, a treasure to be kept
in our very heart and to be guarded jealously. Our very life
and peace depend upon them. These words prosper and
BLESS US..His promises are ASSURANCE TO US OF HIS
LOVE AND BENEVOLENCE TOWARDS US.
NOW, there are many anti-christ spirits to speak lies to us
Now there are many evil spirits to twist the WORD of God to
deceive us. BUT..there is a time quickly approaching...
when He will do away with such with the BREATH OF HIS
.MOUTH. Just as the showdown in Elijah's day occurred due to
such confusion of who was the real .God. But even this was
shown that satan himself would cause fire to come down from
heaven..to even provide a lying sign to deceive.
Lies abound..truth is at a premium...and rare upon the earth.
the precious golden oil of the Holy spirit is what lights the
darkness that surrounds us. A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
Mankind can not be in the image of God and have the mind of
Christ when he beleives a lie and prefers it to the truth. When
he dwells in a state of utter confusion of what is truth and
what is lie..when he beleives a lie and steps out in disobediance
to the spoken word of God..it is not the image of the
incorruptible that he is manifesting..but the works of the
adversary is what man is manifesting.
Love and trust in God and in His word will be
established.Forever...never to come into question again
TRUTH WILL REIGN EXCEEDINGLY AND GLORIOUSLY
IN LOVE AND PEACE
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.
But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.
No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain
from (before) the foundation of the world.
So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2009, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc. Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He is "Lord of heaven and earth" :thumbsup:.
Amen brother jabcat!!! I knew we were kin. :laughing7:
CHB
couldn't 'his being the Lamb slain from before the founding of
the world' entail all mankind as part of His body having to
suffer corruption/death from the adversarial nature of satan..the approaching
lowering into corruption of mankind.? For all mankind[good
seed]sown into the earth must need die to bear fruit in heaven
I take to bear fruit in heaven to mean be raised incorruptible..
perfection in the image of the Father. Also, the scripture is
there yet any seed in the barn? To me it speaks of the seed yet
to be sown in the earth.and I am the first and I am the last
speaks of all the seed of mankind sown in the earth by God.
And the LAMB'S identity is bound up with mankind /people as
the sheep of my pasture. For we are as like a lamb led to our
slaughter and we are all like sheep that have gone astray
Also, Adam was given dominion over the earth...the adversary
was not of this earth..but was in heaven in the beginning..and
dominion was something he erronously coveted.First He sought
and coveted the throne of God in heaven..and when denied that
took dominion of the earth [God's footstool]through deceit
from Adam's family[mankind]But the heir was the LAMB the
promised seed[coming from the family of mankind]And the
Kingship was given unto Him..and He also said..have no fear
little flock for the Father has been pleased to give you the
KINGDOM.
What it all boils down to, is satan[adversary] defrauding
and coveting rulership and position and sonship that has been
given to the Family of Man.That is to be the image of God.
When God said He would not give HIS GLORY to another..
He was in fact speaking of the DOMINION/Rulership/Kingdom
to the adversary and his image
He gave His glory to His son that was begotten from above
Adam's family is to have dominion over satan,not be
dominated by the adversary or be a slave of sin.It is only
through the spirit that this can be accomplished in man.
And it is this spiritual sonship that is restored to the family of
man..it is his inheritance and free gift from the Father...
and we receive a token of that inheritance NOW for warfare
2Cor 10;4 to demolish any pretensions that sets itself up
against the knowledge of God.[such as pretensions to the dominion]
Sheila
QuoteYou mis read me Bro. I am seeing that you are saying that it is God that is passing the buck, not you. Are you saying that God is saying in Scripture that it is not He that is responsible for the evil that abounds, but it is the Devil and people?
Yes
QuoteI know there is no darkness in God and in God there can be no wrongful evil yet I am saying that evil only exists by God allowing it and creating the arena for it to live and survive and this makes God responsible and I think more than responsible for evil.
I know that is what you are saying bro, I just disagree with it.
God created laws, men break those laws and reap what the laws say they will reap.
Example: God created the law of gravity, a man stand on the edge of a cliff and God warns him that if he jumps he will die, why? Because the law of gravity is in place. Is God then responsible for the man's death because the man jumped? Hardly, He is responsible for the law, but not the man jumping.
QuoteI thought that very thought. I don't think I would say evil is ultimately good. I would say evil is an avenue from which good will ultimately come. Rape is not good, it is an immoral and violent evil. God watches this evil occur several times a week. God has the power to stop any one occurance. He does not. Could it be He sees evil differently than we do?
Anything is possible bro, but scriptures tell me these things come from the heart of man, not the heart of God. I believe God suffers a long time with man, willing man to repent of their evils. As to God being able to stop these things if He wanted to, we have to remember man made his bed in hell and God is in the process of saving them from the hell they themselves entered into. So God is in effect working to put a stop to these evils. His will is NOT yet being done on earth, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. So if His will is NOT yet being done on earth who's will is? Answer: satan and mans.
QuotePneuma, could we be 'us' without evil? Is this the left hand of God in some mysterious way?
Yes we could still be us without evil, Adam was still Adam while in the garden and he remained Adam when outside of the garden.
Paul said it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me, YET I LIVE.
QuoteWe will not be corruptible in the resurrection. So being corruptible is not a necessary ingredient. God chose to do two things which He knew would lead to corruption. God created man corruptible. God allowed Satan into the garden. If I do A & B knowing it will lead to C then C is my plan.
Yes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him.
So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.
I also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother.
God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden if He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.
And if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.
It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.
Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY?
QuoteThen a good tree really can eventually bring forth evil fruit apart from outside influence.
Not according to scripture Bob, we do not know the method satan made himself the adversary, I would think it was through disobedience similar to that of Adam, but scripture does not really say. But they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.
QuoteBut following Christ who is the Way includes facing sin and evil. If God intended for me to EVER FORGIVE then God intended for someone to sin.
Yes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.
Quote• Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me
• Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
• 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.
And this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.
QuoteYes I think those are all similar and Jospeh is a foreshadow of both Christ and us. One thing in common with Joseph, Job, Paul and Christ is they all endured the sin of others.
Bob that is in effect my point, these guys endured the sin and evil of others, these others are people and satan, God is NOT included in that picture.
QuoteI think the view that God was "weaving" that evil into good is a perfectly good way to look at it since God does not do the evil nor does God puppeteer anyone into doing evil. But I don't think "weaving" tells the whole story. I think God intended the evil too.
Well I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.
Quote- If God intended no evil to come Paul's way then why does it say God GAVE it to him? God can not both give evil persecution and not intend it.
Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?
Quote- If God intended no evil to come Christ's way then why does it say "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" and "It pleased God to bruise Him"? Why in the world would scripture attribute the bruising of Christ to God if God only weaved that evil into good.
Like I keep saying brother I can't answer all the question, I can only give what I see, much like when God first showed me the restitution of all things I could not answer all the questions thrown at me then either. But these things only came about because of MANS sin and the EVIL of men. Thus God is not the cause of these evils but rather weaved mans evil ways into something He could use in order to save them.
Quote- If God intended Satan not to do evil to Job then why did God say "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"? Why would God give authority to Satan to DO EVIL if God did not intend for him to do it. Intend, not condone.
Job is a book of shadow and the true light can only be seen in Christ. If any see something in Job about God other than what Christ revealed I would say they are still seeing in shadow.
But like I keep saying brother there are some things I just cannot answer (at least not yet). Does this mean I am in error, No it just means I have not yet been given sufficient light on the subject. But these convo's are good because they give me things to take to the Lord and say what about this? Or what about that?
QuoteBut none of those warnings & commandments could actually lead to life due to weakness of the flesh.
While man was walking in the garden man was walking in the spiritual realm, so yes those commandments could actually lead to life, and were actually made for that very purpose.
Quote• Galatians 3:21 ...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
• Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
All this is AFTER the fall not before the fall
QuoteDid Adam possess the same weakness of the flesh as we do? If so then that first commandment was incapable of giving life to Adam.
That same commandment is before us this very day bro and we most assuredly can obey it, but not as long as we walk after the flesh, but after the spirit. It all in how we apprehend the law bro.
QuoteDon't we judge two year olds for what they do, even though we know they did make themselves thus?
Adam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.
QuoteWhat if I do exactly the opposite of what God tells me to do, but with godly intent as Moses did here:
• Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Moses does the opposite of what God told him to do.
• Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 2 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And God repented so to speak.
• Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
I think Moses was acting in corcord with God while Satan was not.
That' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.
So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.
But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.
No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.
So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.
I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?
I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.
The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?
Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?
Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?
Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.
But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.
No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.
So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.
I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?
I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.
The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?
Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?
Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?
Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.
Hmm... I hadn't thought about the potential difference between "foundation of the world" and "the beginning", although I think it says the lamb was slain from
before the foundation of the world, which would indicate in/ before the beginning to me.
And I don't see it as two separate events; He is alpha and omega. He was only physically slain once, whatever the case. But as He pre-existed His incarnation, so also his "slain-ness" pre-existed His incarnation in some sense.
Pneuma, you are a trooper to deal with so many questions. God has gifted you and your patience is strong.
Now for the attack! Just kidding.
I don't feel I have been given any real choice in what really matters. I did not choose to be born into this cesspool. I did not intentionally choose to sin, it just seemed to come so natural. For me and millions of others we have been born into something that is on going, no fault of our own and actually against the desires of many of us.
Pneuma, you wrote.....
Anything is possible bro, but scriptures tell me these things [evil] come from the heart of man, not the heart of God. I believe God suffers a long time with man, willing man to repent of their evils. As to God being able to stop these things if He wanted to, we have to remember man made his bed in hell and God is in the process of saving them from the hell they themselves entered into.
You say evil comes from my heartand I ofcourse agree on one level, but I did not put the evil there or if I did I did it in total ignorance without wanting to do it. God suffers a long time with me? How about me suffering a long time with evil? Who in their right mind does not want to repent of their evils?
I did not make my bed in hell, at least not willingly. I was born in a cesspool, I grew up in a cesspool and I currently live in a cesspool but I did not 'make my bed in hell'. This implies I had a choice in the matter. If I had a choice I would make my bed in Heaven. God is in the process of saving me from conditions I had and have no control over. With all due respect to God and to you Brother, God has an obligation to save me/us.
I have entered hell as you say but not in the spirit of how you say it. I have entered hell but I did not do it willingly.
Just airing, am I way off base here?
cp
QuotePneuma, you are a trooper to deal with so many questions. God has gifted you and your patience is strong.
Now for the attack! Just kidding.
I don't feel I have been given any real choice in what really matters. I did not choose to be born into this cesspool. I did not intentionally choose to sin, it just seemed to come so natural. For me and millions of others we have been born into something that is on going, no fault of our own and actually against the desires of many of us.
Pneuma, you wrote.....
You say evil comes from my heartand I ofcourse agree on one level, but I did not put the evil there or if I did I did it in total ignorance without wanting to do it. God suffers a long time with me? How about me suffering a long time with evil? Who in their right mind does not want to repent of their evils?
No you did not put the evil there brother, the devil sowed the tares in you NOT God. But what I see is people blaming God for the works of the devil.
QuoteI did not make my bed in hell, at least not willingly
.
Every time we are disobedient to God we make our bed in hell brother.
QuoteI was born in a cesspool, I grew up in a cesspool and I currently live in a cesspool but I did not 'make my bed in hell'. This implies I had a choice in the matter. If I had a choice I would make my bed in Heaven.
Are you so sure about that bro? This is why a study into whether we are the angels that kept not their first estate might come in handy.
For if we are, then we most assuredly did make our bed in hell by our own choice.
QuoteGod is in the process of saving me from conditions I had and have no control over. With all due respect to God and to you Brother, God has an obligation to save me/us.
I don't believe God has an obligation to save any of us, an obligation on Gods part towards us would take away His grace which is unmerited favour and His love for us which we do not deserve.
QuoteI have entered hell as you say but not in the spirit of how you say it. I have entered hell but I did not do it willingly.
And again I would say are you so sure about that?
QuoteJust airing, am I way off base here?
Not according to most bro, it would appear I am the one off base, but I cannot help but see what I see, if it is of God it will grow and produce fruit if not......
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 10:24:10 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 30, 2009, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 29, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.
So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?
Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.
Well, it's possible you're right about this.
But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?
If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?
I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?
If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.
But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.
No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.
So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.
I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?
I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.
The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?
Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?
Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?
Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.
Hmm... I hadn't thought about the potential difference between "foundation of the world" and "the beginning", although I think it says the lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, which would indicate in/ before the beginning to me.
And I don't see it as two separate events; He is alpha and omega. He was only physically slain once, whatever the case. But as He pre-existed His incarnation, so also his "slain-ness" pre-existed His incarnation in some sense.
Doc where do you get the word from means before?
Quote from: pneuma on March 31, 2009, 12:57:33 AM
Doc where do you get the word from means before?
It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain
from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.
Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.
I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.
Talk about know the tree by it's
fruit. Jesus came to save the world..to blot out our sins and
transgressions. I see this thinking not in line with His..of not
counting our sins against us..in Grace and mercy.And freely
giving mankind to eat of the tree of life and to take Life's
waters free. Jesus bought back that right through His blood
Now,Pneuma, you have not only placed those sins squarely on
our backs again..but are ADDING UNTO THEM TRANSGRESSIONS
OF THE FALLEN ANGELS BEFORE WE WERE EVEN SOWN INTO
THIS CORRUPTION.
Sorry,bad fruit brother..if it is putting more sin on us..it is bad
THIS HAS THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN WRITTEN ALL OVER IT
Blame God, Blame man..but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!!
Or satans works be the actual works of satan.....youv'e got two trees to judge....the anti-christ and christ to discern, works of satan/devil versus works of God/Christ.
Here's a big clue..one's works bring death,
one's works give life
One brings accusation/condemnation
One brings JUDGEMENT/MERCY
ONE's 'works' bring knowledge of sin.
One's 'works' bring Knowledge of GOD
You will know the tree by it's fruit
we really shouldn't be surprized that when a wheat/grain of truth
is realized, such as all mankind was first in heaven..that a tare
of accusation and corruption would be presented along with
that truth. The tare is mankind is the fallen angels..even the
seed of the evil ones/offspring of vipers.
The wheat is mankind is the good seed God sowed in the earth.
Granted some men may have dwelling in their flesh a spirit of
a fallen angel. But the man's spirit is not the fallen angels spirit.
In fact, this is where the erronous doctrine of re-incarnation
originated from..these same spirits of the fallen angels use
other men's bodies when the one they are in dies. They then
put some their memories into the mind of the man they dwell in.
Because of this fact, many men beleive in re-incarnation
thinking we must die and come back and die numerous times
having a memory of another life lived before
I hear ya Pneuma and all.
It's good to air all our thoughts. What may make total sense to one may be nonsense to another and vise versa. I have learned much from 'stray' thoughts of others and I'm thankful.
cp
The Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world because the slain Lamb IS the foundation of the world.
"foundation"
G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.
Katabole comes from kataballo which means 'to cast down', 'to throw down'.
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--Gen 3
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
--Gen 3
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
--Rom 8
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
--Gen 3
Pneuma, your posts are akin to a gentle wind; having the Spirit of God's Word within them!
peacemaker
:cloud9: Molly, pull up the meaning for "helpmeet"......
I will make
"him a help"
H5828
עזר
‛êzer
ay'-zer
From H5826; aid: - help.
H5826
עזר
‛âzar
aw-zar'
A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.
"meet for him"
H5048
נגד
neged
neh'-ghed
From H5046; a front, that is, part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbially, especially with preposition) over against or before: - about, (over) against, X aloof, X far (off), X from, over, presence, X other side, sight, X to view.
H5046
נגד
nâgad
naw-gad'
A primitive root; properly to front, that is, stand boldly out opposite; by implication (causatively), to manifest; figuratively to announce (always by word of mouth to one present); specifically to expose, predict, explain, praise: - bewray, X certainly, certify, declare (-ing), denounce, expound, X fully, messenger, plainly, profess, rehearse, report, shew (forth), speak, X surely, tell, utter.
Cardinal that word nagad--'meet for him'--is a verb? Meaning to front, to stand boldly out opposite.
He is surrounded by his opposite?
I will make him a help [that is] meet for him---?
His helper is his opposite.
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2009, 08:38:34 PM
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2009, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: Doc on March 27, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.
That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc. Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He is "Lord of heaven and earth" :thumbsup:.
Amen brother jabcat!!! I knew we were kin. :laughing7:
CHB
We are, never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it
is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion :laughing7:.
"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness."
Whether it grinds you down (darkness/earth) or polishes you up (light/heaven), depends upon what you're made of, and these two are closely linked.
Christ is the touchstone to our natures; Checkmate!
peacemaker
:cloud9: Molly, either I remembered wrong, or gave you the wrong word, or they didn't put all the meanings in there as is in the Strong's book. :sigh:
Hi Cardinal,
I never read that sentence correctly before. I always thought of help meet like help mate. It doesn't seem to be exactly saying that because of the meaning of that word, meet. The word means to stand in opposition to, to come against, to oppose, be the opposite, and in a prominent way. It's used when one army comes against another, for instance. The translators of all the Bibles I have looked at seem to gloss over the real meaning of it.
So I'm wondering--what is this all about? It's easy to say of Eve--well, she was a lot of help lol. This is a fine mess you've gotten us into, Eve. How, exactly, is she a help to him?
One way--she carries the seed--a mystery hidden from ages and generations--
Hidden, alright--who would have guessed that such glory could be found buried in mud?
Strong's G 2602
katabole (Greek)
DOWN-CASTing "disruption" (CLV)
"foundation, conceive" (KJV)
1.) a throwing or laying down
a.) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
b.) of the seed of plants and animals
2.) a founding (laying down a foundation)
Since it belongs to the male (Gk: kataballein to sperma) to "down cast" the seed it is a misinterpretation to speak of her "conceiving." She, being past the age to ovulate, it is referring here to "the discharge of seed from the ovaries." (Knoch) Nevertheless, the word is translated "conceive" in Hebrews 11:11...
"Through faith also Sara herself received strength to 'conceive' seed..." (KJV)
"By faith Sarah herself also obtained power for the 'disruption' of seed, and brought forth beyond the period of her prime, since she deems the Promiser faithful..." (CLV)
The following is definitely "'before' the disruption of the world"
Ephesians 1:2-5 (CLV)...
"...Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him 'before' the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus..."
What I understand is the world (Gk: cosmos) was realized in God before it was manifested. God conceived of the cosmos then it was lowered into manifestation, the 'idea l' of it being of a higher form than the 'rea l'(ization) of it. From the inner ideal was the cosmos 'down-cast'. Knoch may be right in understanding it to prefigure the result of sin. The original creation was "disrupted" by sin.
The word "from" in "'from' the disruption of the world" is here in the primary reference of our consideration from Revelation 13:8...
"...the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (KJV)
"...the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world." (CLV)
Strong's G 575
apo (Greek)
FROM "...indicates source and seperation." (CLV) Knoch
KJV translation count 671 total
from 393, of 129, out of 48, for 10, off 10, by 9, at 9, in 6, since + 3739 5, on 5, not tr. 16, misc. 31
1.) of separation
a.) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,
b.) of separation of a part from the whole
1.) where of a whole some part is taken
c.) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d.) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1.) physical, of distance of place
2.) temporal, of distance of time
2.) of origin
a.) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b.) of origin of a cause
separated from its origination in the down-casting (of the cosmos)
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2009, 06:07:23 AM
We are [kin,] never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion :laughing7:.
(I don't know if kinship is determined by diminishing words; but, a word that somebody forgot I seem to say in pages of text. I dishearten myself. I'm trying to change without being truly warped...oh well, I guess it's too late for that. Is there a woof for that kind of warp or am I just in another time?)
Quote from: reFORMer on March 31, 2009, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2009, 06:07:23 AM
We are [kin,] never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion :laughing7:.
(I don't know if kinship is determined by diminishing words; but, a word that somebody forgot I seem to say in pages of text. I dishearten myself. I'm trying to change without being truly warped...oh well, I guess it's too late for that. Is there a woof for that kind of warp or am I just in another time?)
Reminds me of this James, especially the last 2 lines...remember this? We probably are of/in another time...as Larry Norman said,
Alice is a drag queen, Bowie's somewhere in between
Other bands are looking mean, me, I'm trying to stay clean.
I don't dig the radio, I hate what the charts pick
Rock and roll may not be dead, but it's getting sick.
All over the world disc jockeys sound the same
And every town I play is like the one from where I came.
Rolling Stones are millionaires, flower children pallbearers,
Beatles said All you need is love, and then they broke up.
Jimi took an overdose, Janis followed so close,
The whole music scene and all the bands are pretty comatose.
This time last year, people didn't wanna hear.
They looked at Jesus from afar, this year he's a superstar.
Dear John, who's more popular now?
I've been listening to some of Paul's new records.
Sometimes I think he really is dead.
It's 1973, I wonder who we're gonna see
Who's in power now? Think I'll turn on my TV,
The man on the news said China's gonna beat us,
We shot all our dreamers, there's no one left to lead us.
We need a solution, we need salvation,
Let's send some people to the moon and gather information.
They brought back a big bag of rocks.
Only cost thirteen billion. Must be nice rocks.
You think it's such a sad thing when you see a fallen king
Then you find out they're only princes to begin with
And everybody has to choose whether they will win or lose
Follow God or sing the blues, and who they're gonna sin with.
What a mess the world is in, I wonder who began it.
Don't ask me, I'm only visiting this planet
This world is not my home...I'm just pa-a-a-asin' through
OK, don't mean to hijack the thread...carry on!
Quoteseparated from its origination in the down-casting (of the cosmos)
Anything separated from God has to be lowered into a less perfect state by definition.
We see this happen when they are cast out of the garden--sweat of his brow, pain in reproducing, dust to dust--the frustration of entropy, everything winds down, decays, and dies.
But, life uniquely works in opposition to the laws of physics. Life regenerates itself in a most miraculous way.
This entropy, this death, decay, hopelessness, then, is what we are to overcome, not only for ourselves but for all creation--receiving the life he has abundantly given us and reproducing it in every direction.
Our God is a creator. We should be likewise.
QuoteNow,Pneuma, you have not only placed those sins squarely on
our backs again..but are ADDING UNTO THEM TRANSGRESSIONS
OF THE FALLEN ANGELS BEFORE WE WERE EVEN SOWN INTO
THIS CORRUPTION.
Sorry,bad fruit brother..if it is putting more sin on us..it is bad
THIS HAS THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN WRITTEN ALL OVER IT
Blame God, Blame man..but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!!
Hi Shelia, I think you need to go back and read my posts sis, because you have not understood them.
I have been the one who has been saying Satan sowed the tares in us that these are his/satans works, others have been saying God is responsible for our disobedience and death as He planned it all out that way. Thus making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.
How you get I blame God, blame man but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!! Out of what I have been saying is beyond me :dontknow: For I have been blaming the devil all along.
Quote from: peacemaker on March 31, 2009, 05:00:38 AM
Pneuma, your posts are akin to a gentle wind; having the Spirit of God's Word within them!
peacemaker
Thanks PM
Quote from: Pneuma
I have been the one who has been saying Satan sowed the tares in us that these are his/satans works, others have been saying God is responsible for our disobedience and death as He planned it all out that way. Thus making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.
Hi,
If God created satan and satan can do nothing without God's permission how can these things, good and bad, not be of God?
CHB
Hi Pneuma
Sorry if I mis-read you. I think I addressed you because of the
possible thought that mankind were the fallen angels..it was
that 'thought'I took issue with.
Also there is a great mystery as to why our creator who is
only good could have 'evil' exist in his creation. What it boils down to
is He 'developed this 'evil' that is everything He is not..as
an adversarial tool for our education and disciplining .Since it
holds in it's design..everything HE is not..it is not of HIM but
apart from Him..actually He tells us it is everything He hates..
The spirit of disobediance is lawlessness..and when it resides
in man..it manifests the man of lawlessness. It is NOT life
but death and brings much suffering when it touches the life
of man. It is the 'negative' counterpart to HIS 'positive.Which Blesses man.
The Law was written for the LAWLESS to show that there was nothing but death in it.That the spirit of disobediance dwelt in
man's flesh. Sin[spirit of disobediance] was condemned in flesh
Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His
design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a
dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'
it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of
man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have
sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]
OUR FATHER KEEPS THE LAW OF HIS LOVE FOR US PERFECTLY
EVEN THOUGH WE BE CHASTENED AND SCOURGED AND BEAR
THE HUMILIATION OF OUR YOUTH AND SUFFER EVIL
Our Father has kept this spiritual Law of LOVE for mankind..
from the beginning and has always protected our eternal
spiritual lives. Any damage or destruction accomplished by this
'negative' expierance is of only a temporal nature while we
dwell on this earth. It can only 'touch' us while we dwell in
our body of flesh. It has the power to bring death to our
flesh,only...because our spirits are of Him and do return to Him
when the flesh returns to the dust.[I will draw all men]
No 'weapon' formed against us will suceed. Even though we
have not known it..Our Father has been protecting us all along.
The Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ as the SON OF GOD the firstborn from the dead
speaks of the family of Adam[son of God] being lowered into
this 'death' realm/expierence...
[SON OF MAN/ADAM] and the holy promised seed of
eternal life...is the good seed of God's spirit sown in this
corruption. And death and hell shall not prevail against it....it
is by the indestructable spirit of God that death does not prevail.
Yes the seed dwells in 'soil' that also has tares dwelling in it...
Matthew 13;30 Let both grow togather until the harvest.At
that time I will tell the harvesters; first collect the weeds and
tie them in bundles,to be burned; then gather the wheat and
bring it into my barn
Quote from: sheila on March 31, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His
design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a
dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'
it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of
man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have
sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]
:cloud9: interesting point.....I'm thinking about this in relation to what happened with the cross. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 31, 2009, 06:59:49 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 31, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His
design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a
dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'
it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of
man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have
sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]
:cloud9: interesting point.....I'm thinking about this in relation to what happened with the cross. Blessings....
Can anyone show me where that is in scripture?
Thanks.
Hey Scott,
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 10:06:11 PMYes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him. So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.
Why is being corruptible a necessary ingredient to being able to make choices or being free? God is not corruptible and makes choices and is free. We will not be corruptible in the resurrection yet we will still be free.
QuoteI also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother. God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden...
I still see two.
[1] God chose to make man corruptible in Adam, though He chooses to later make us incorruptible in the resurrection.
[2] God chose to kick Satan out out only after A&E ate instead of before.
Quoteif He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.
God has restricted Satan's freedom in scripture. For example, God put limits on Satan's freedom in how much he could harm Job. Satan is bound in Revelation.
QuoteAnd if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.
It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.
Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY?
I don't think WAY and PLAN are synonomous.
Jesus Christ is the Way that leads us to the Father refers to following His example, taking up our cross.
Here are some elements of God's plan that are not synonomous with this Way.
- God planned for man to hear the truth through the foolishness of
preaching.
- Preaching is accomplished by
the saints.
- The law is our
schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.
IOW the Way refers to how we are to think an act in harmony with God and following the example Christ set. But God's entire plan contains elements (law, reaping, hearing foolish preaching, being blinded, being given sight etc.) that are not synonomous with living as Christ lived. Even if you believe those elements were never part of God's original plan, they are part of God's plan now and yet Christ still said (after those elements were in place) that Christ is the only way to the Father.
QuoteBut they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.
I was not arguing against that verse. I agree with you that a good tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit. Given that truth, my point was to ask "how then did the good tree Satan bring forth corrupt fruit all on his own?"
But upon further reflection, I don't really like my point because it presumes that a good tree can not become a corrupt tree. Ezekiel 18 (if I'm recalling the chapter correctly) says that a righteous person (good tree) can turn from his righteousness (thus becoming a corrupt tree) and his past righteousness will not save him. And vice versa. So I think I was misuing the good tree / bad tree scripture to say that once a man is a good tree he can never bring forth evil fruit. But that is not true per Ezekiel 18. I think what the good tree scripture is really saying is the same thing as when Christ said "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will be clean" and "out of the heart a man speaketh". IOW if our heart is righteous then good fruit will proceed from the inside out. And if our heart is evil then corrupt fruit will proceed forth. Jesus is telling us to get right in our heart. Clean the inside of the cup and then good fruit WILL appear.
In the case of God, we know that God does not change. So God as a good tree indeed can never ever bring forth corrupt fruit.
QuoteYes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.
I disagree there. I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father. It is the only way to be proved to be in His image. Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily. Even "publicans" love those who love them. Loving those who love me is not sufficient. If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.
QuoteAnd this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.
I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike. I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ. Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.
QuoteAdam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.
I was pointing to a principle. We rightly find fault with a two year old, even though the two year old is not the source of his innate predispositions and faults. Adam was not two years old, but spiritually speaking, I believe he was two years old.
QuoteThat' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.
I agree, God did not intend to destroy the people. God intended for Moses to obey the heart of the law and God only apparently repented.
QuoteWell I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.
So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?
Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?
These questions all have related answers so I will address them together.
A good tree can not bare corrupt fruit. I'm in complete agreement there. What that means to me is that one who is righteous on the inside will bring forth good fruit on the outside to be observed by others. Vice verse for a corrupt tree. Man as a good tree or corrupt tree can change (Ezekiel 18).
In contrast, God does not change. So I think you are right to point out that God as a good tree can never bring forth corrupt fruit.
The key point where I disagree with your statements is that you are implying that IF God ever intended anything
evil to occur then God would be bringing forth corrupt fruit. I think I can demonstrate otherwise by scripture. This brings me back to the thorn in the flesh.
The thorn in the flesh was GIVEN by God. So God intended it and it was part of God's plan.
I also agree with you when you point out that the thorn in the flesh was GOOD as a rod of correction. It's purpose was to keep Paul from becoming puffed up. From the perspective of God's intent, the thorn in the flesh was GOOD FRUIT proceeding from the heart of God for Paul's benefit.
So how do I know that the thorn in the flesh was also CORRUPT FRUIT? Because the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh was a
messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul. Satan is a corrupt tree so this fruit proceeding from the heart of Satan was corrupt. "Buffet" is the same word used to describe what was done to Christ during His crucifixion. Satan purpose was not to keep Paul from becoming puffed up. Satan's purpose was to hinder Paul's minstry.
So the thorn in the flesh was BOTH corrupt fruit proceeding from Satan (as a messenger of Satan) and good fruit proceeding from God as a means of correcting and blessing Paul.
This parrallels Job, Joseph, and Christ. In each case a single "event" that was manifest in the physical world was CORRUPT FRUIT of evil people trying to work evil and GOOD FRUIT of God when God weaved that evil intened by others into good.
Job's suffering - was worked by Satan for evil purposes, was worked by God to bring Job forth like gold.
Jospeph's being sold as a slave - was worked by jealous brothers to get even, was worked by God to save many from famine.
Christ's crucifixion - was carried out by evil men out of hatred, was carried out by God (please God to bruise him) for the salvation of the world.
God bless,
Bob
Hi Molly,
Look to the LAW and the TESTIMONY...IT IS THE LAW OF
LOVE AN ELEVATED SPIRITUAL FULFILLING OF IT BY OUR
FATHER WHO DOES KEEP AND FUFILL IT. He can and does
keep it perfectly with mercy and love. Not a jot nor title will not be fulfilled.
There is no LAW against LOVE...for instance Lev 5;16
the guilt offering...if a person sins unintentionally in regard
to any of the Lord's Holy things a penalty guilt ofering was a
ram without blemish and a proper amount of silver. Our Father
as head of our family is our High Preist and performed this
preistly service for us.
In cases of theft and cheating, the stolen property had to be
returned along with a 20% indemnity. You can see this being
fulfilled by our Father also. Enoch wrote of 10 heavens...the
new Jerusalem has 12 foundation...20% of 10 +2...
add 2+10 and you have the new heavens..Adam's family was
cheated/robbed out of the Holy birthright. And here you see our
Father has made restitution
Remember,Jesus said 'I do only what I see the Father do"
I LOVE THE LAW BECAUSE OF THIS...
Sheila
Galatians 4:28-5:1 (CLV)...
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
Chapter 5
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.
Christ brings increasing freedom. At this time we must enslave the flesh to obey God and do what is right. We shall be delivered from this body of humiliation by Jesus Who will transfigure it, "...to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:21, CLV)
Romans 6:
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.
21 What fruit, then, had you then? -- of which you are now ashamed, for, indeed, the consummation of those things is death.
22 Yet, now, being freed from Sin, yet enslaved to God, you have your fruit for holiness. Now the consummation is life eonian.
23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
I'm trying to bring a context for saying we are not free in our birth in Adam. We're born in other men's homes, raised in their schools of thought; we're victims of their sins and subjected to their gods. There is no way I can say God made man free. Some theory about the original Adam sidesteps the hell that millions of people are born into, a hell not of their own devising. It seems to me that asking a girl who has just been raped, "What were you wearing?" is kinder than blaming those born to wicked men in evil circumstances for their own victimization. Too many (like Comfort and Cameron) have tried to prove you are solely responsible for your own sins. Then, if you exercise your sovereign choice to accept God, you have obtained your salvation. You chose, whatever wrong you did, and you chose to follow Jesus. But, Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed. That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality. I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV) This is why the first part of the gospel is: "Christ died for OUR sins..." There is a mutual guilt that must include forgiveness that we may be forgiven. Ordinarily the beginner in the Lord doesn't recognize this. Admitting that however he came by this condition, with no more plea for his own or any other's ability to provide, he is reduced to a need he cannot meet. He must have Jesus.
Quote from: bobf on March 31, 2009, 08:48:12 PM
Hey Scott,
Quote from: pneuma on March 30, 2009, 10:06:11 PMYes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him. So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.
Why is being corruptible a necessary ingredient to being able to make choices or being free? God is not corruptible and makes choices and is free. We will not be corruptible in the resurrection yet we will still be free.
QuoteI also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother. God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden...
I still see two.
[1] God chose to make man corruptible in Adam, though He chooses to later make us incorruptible in the resurrection.
[2] God chose to kick Satan out out only after A&E ate instead of before.
Quoteif He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.
God has restricted Satan's freedom in scripture. For example, God put limits on Satan's freedom in how much he could harm Job. Satan is bound in Revelation.
QuoteAnd if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.
It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.
Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY?
I don't think WAY and PLAN are synonomous.
Jesus Christ is the Way that leads us to the Father refers to following His example, taking up our cross.
Here are some elements of God's plan that are not synonomous with this Way.
- God planned for man to hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.
- Preaching is accomplished by the saints.
- The law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.
IOW the Way refers to how we are to think an act in harmony with God and following the example Christ set. But God's entire plan contains elements (law, reaping, hearing foolish preaching, being blinded, being given sight etc.) that are not synonomous with living as Christ lived. Even if you believe those elements were never part of God's original plan, they are part of God's plan now and yet Christ still said (after those elements were in place) that Christ is the only way to the Father.
QuoteBut they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.
I was not arguing against that verse. I agree with you that a good tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit. Given that truth, my point was to ask "how then did the good tree Satan bring forth corrupt fruit all on his own?"
But upon further reflection, I don't really like my point because it presumes that a good tree can not become a corrupt tree. Ezekiel 18 (if I'm recalling the chapter correctly) says that a righteous person (good tree) can turn from his righteousness (thus becoming a corrupt tree) and his past righteousness will not save him. And vice versa. So I think I was misuing the good tree / bad tree scripture to say that once a man is a good tree he can never bring forth evil fruit. But that is not true per Ezekiel 18. I think what the good tree scripture is really saying is the same thing as when Christ said "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will be clean" and "out of the heart a man speaketh". IOW if our heart is righteous then good fruit will proceed from the inside out. And if our heart is evil then corrupt fruit will proceed forth. Jesus is telling us to get right in our heart. Clean the inside of the cup and then good fruit WILL appear.
In the case of God, we know that God does not change. So God as a good tree indeed can never ever bring forth corrupt fruit.
QuoteYes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.
I disagree there. I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father. It is the only way to be proved to be in His image. Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily. Even "publicans" love those who love them. Loving those who love me is not sufficient. If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.
QuoteAnd this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.
I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike. I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ. Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.
QuoteAdam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.
I was pointing to a principle. We rightly find fault with a two year old, even though the two year old is not the source of his innate predispositions and faults. Adam was not two years old, but spiritually speaking, I believe he was two years old.
QuoteThat' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.
I agree, God did not intend to destroy the people. God intended for Moses to obey the heart of the law and God only apparently repented.
QuoteWell I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.
So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?
Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?
These questions all have related answers so I will address them together.
A good tree can not bare corrupt fruit. I'm in complete agreement there. What that means to me is that one who is righteous on the inside will bring forth good fruit on the outside to be observed by others. Vice verse for a corrupt tree. Man as a good tree or corrupt tree can change (Ezekiel 18).
In contrast, God does not change. So I think you are right to point out that God as a good tree can never bring forth corrupt fruit.
The key point where I disagree with your statements is that you are implying that IF God ever intended anything evil to occur then God would be bringing forth corrupt fruit. I think I can demonstrate otherwise by scripture. This brings me back to the thorn in the flesh.
The thorn in the flesh was GIVEN by God. So God intended it and it was part of God's plan.
I also agree with you when you point out that the thorn in the flesh was GOOD as a rod of correction. It's purpose was to keep Paul from becoming puffed up. From the perspective of God's intent, the thorn in the flesh was GOOD FRUIT proceeding from the heart of God for Paul's benefit.
So how do I know that the thorn in the flesh was also CORRUPT FRUIT? Because the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul. Satan is a corrupt tree so this fruit proceeding from the heart of Satan was corrupt. "Buffet" is the same word used to describe what was done to Christ during His crucifixion. Satan purpose was not to keep Paul from becoming puffed up. Satan's purpose was to hinder Paul's minstry.
So the thorn in the flesh was BOTH corrupt fruit proceeding from Satan (as a messenger of Satan) and good fruit proceeding from God as a means of correcting and blessing Paul.
This parrallels Job, Joseph, and Christ. In each case a single "event" that was manifest in the physical world was CORRUPT FRUIT of evil people trying to work evil and GOOD FRUIT of God when God weaved that evil intened by others into good.
Job's suffering - was worked by Satan for evil purposes, was worked by God to bring Job forth like gold.
Jospeph's being sold as a slave - was worked by jealous brothers to get even, was worked by God to save many from famine.
Christ's crucifixion - was carried out by evil men out of hatred, was carried out by God (please God to bruise him) for the salvation of the world.
God bless,
Bob
Great points, Bob. I especially appreciated these two:
I disagree there. I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father. It is the only way to be proved to be in His image. Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily. Even "publicans" love those who love them. Loving those who love me is not sufficient. If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.
I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike. I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ. Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 31, 2009, 11:10:35 PM
...Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed. That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality. I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV) This is why the first part of the gospel is: "Christ died for OUR sins..." must have Jesus.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on March 31, 2009, 11:10:35 PM
Galatians 4:28-5:1 (CLV)...
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
Chapter 5
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.
Christ brings increasing freedom. At this time we must enslave the flesh to obey God and do what is right. We shall be delivered from this body of humiliation by Jesus Who will transfigure it, "...to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:21, CLV)
Romans 6:
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.
21 What fruit, then, had you then? -- of which you are now ashamed, for, indeed, the consummation of those things is death.
22 Yet, now, being freed from Sin, yet enslaved to God, you have your fruit for holiness. Now the consummation is life eonian.
23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
I'm trying to bring a context for saying we are not free in our birth in Adam. We're born in other men's homes, raised in their schools of thought; we're victims of their sins and subjected to their gods. There is no way I can say God made man free. Some theory about the original Adam sidesteps the hell that millions of people are born into, a hell not of their own devising. It seems to me that asking a girl who has just been raped, "What were you wearing?" is kinder than blaming those born to wicked men in evil circumstances for their own victimization. Too many (like Comfort and Cameron) have tried to prove you are solely responsible for your own sins. Then, if you exercise your sovereign choice to accept God, you have obtained your salvation. You chose, whatever wrong you did, and you chose to follow Jesus. But, Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed. That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality. I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV) This is why the first part of the gospel is: "Christ died for OUR sins..." There is a mutual guilt that must include forgiveness that we may be forgiven. Ordinarily the beginner in the Lord doesn't recognize this. Admitting that however he came by this condition, with no more plea for his own or any other's ability to provide, he is reduced to a need he cannot meet. He must have Jesus.
:goodpost:
:cloud9: Amen, pneuma :thumbsup: Gonna borrow one of Taffy's daisys for ya.... :icon_flower:
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
....What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9
Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598 { hod-os'}
apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f
AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6, highway 3, misc 2; 102
GK - 3847 { }
GK - together with 4160 3846 { }
1) properly
1a) a way
1a1) a travelled way, road
1b) a travellers way, journey, travelling
2) metaph.
2a) a course of conduct
2b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD
Ways:
1870 { deh'-rek}
from 1869; TWOT - 453a; n m
AV - way 590, toward 31, journey 23, manner 8, misc 53; 705
GK - 2006 { Jr,D,
1) way, road, distance, journey, manner
1a) road, way, path
1b) journey
1c) direction
1d) manner, habit, way
1e) of course of life (fig.)
1f) of moral character (fig.)
It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.
Adams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.
Bob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.
For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.
God forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.
You might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer.
What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.
Eternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?
I know I am using hard words brother, but I don't know how else to express how horrible this view of God is to me, my heart really bleeds to see people have this view of our kind loving Father.
So forgive me if I offend, as I am not trying to offend you or others.
God is NOT responsible for all the evils in this world brother, (I know you have said He is not responsible but if He planned it all then He most assuredly is) Man's union with the Devil is what brought all these evils into the world. Sin is of the Devil brother not of God, if God planned for sin then sin would be of God. It does not matter if He used another to bring sin into the world He is still responsible for it. A mob boss might not pull the trigger put he is a murder just the same.
As to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.
QuoteHi Pneuma
Sorry if I mis-read you. I think I addressed you because of the
possible thought that mankind were the fallen angels..it was
that 'thought'I took issue with.
Hi Shelia, you might still be misunderstanding me sis, my view of the angels that kept not their first estate is in reference to Adam and Eve in the garden. look back to my post on page 1 or 2 of this thread for more info on what I was talking about.
Quote from: Doc on March 31, 2009, 02:12:19 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 31, 2009, 12:57:33 AM
Doc where do you get the word from means before?
It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.
Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.
I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.
Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world
World here is also kosmos Doc. so yes it can mean what I was saying.
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 12:31:37 AM
Quote from: Doc on March 31, 2009, 02:12:19 AM
Quote from: pneuma on March 31, 2009, 12:57:33 AM
Doc where do you get the word from means before?
It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.
Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.
I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.
Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world
World here is also kosmos Doc. so yes it can mean what I was saying.
I think that's a misunderstanding of how that word is used in the two contexts. Either way, it refers to the physical earth and universe.
Hi Scott, I appreciate your frankness and take no offsense.
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 12:11:46 AM
Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598 { hod-os'}
apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f
It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.
Jesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father. But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.
Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:
1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching. That hearing leads to faith. So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.
2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ. Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster. So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ. It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.
Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.
QuoteAdams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.
The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command. It even states why God intended it. That road for pharoah was not the way. It did not lead the pharoah to the Father. But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.
QuoteBob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.
For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.
I do realize it. Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.
Your belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues. To be frank it is mere hand-waving.
If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it
If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.
QuoteGod forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.
Yes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father. Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.
So what does that mean?
Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?
They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.
QuoteYou might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer. What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.
Yes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop. No difference.
QuoteEternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?
God has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good. I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good. Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good. And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.
QuoteAs to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.
Except God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh. Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My question for you Scott is this:
How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 12:11:46 AM
Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598 { hod-os'}
apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f
AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6, highway 3, misc 2; 102
GK - 3847 { }
GK - together with 4160 3846 { }
1) properly
1a) a way
1a1) a travelled way, road
1b) a travellers way, journey, travelling
2) metaph.
2a) a course of conduct
2b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD
Ways:
1870 { deh'-rek}
from 1869; TWOT - 453a; n m
AV - way 590, toward 31, journey 23, manner 8, misc 53; 705
GK - 2006 { Jr,D,
1) way, road, distance, journey, manner
1a) road, way, path
1b) journey
1c) direction
1d) manner, habit, way
1e) of course of life (fig.)
1f) of moral character (fig.)
It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.
Adams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.
Bob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.
For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.
God forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.
You might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer.
What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.
Eternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?
I know I am using hard words brother, but I don't know how else to express how horrible this view of God is to me, my heart really bleeds to see people have this view of our kind loving Father.
So forgive me if I offend, as I am not trying to offend you or others.
God is NOT responsible for all the evils in this world brother, (I know you have said He is not responsible but if He planned it all then He most assuredly is) Man's union with the Devil is what brought all these evils into the world. Sin is of the Devil brother not of God, if God planned for sin then sin would be of God. It does not matter if He used another to bring sin into the world He is still responsible for it. A mob boss might not pull the trigger put he is a murder just the same.
As to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.
God has planned everything. God holds us accountable for sin but not responsible for it. God is responsible for all the evils in the world. That sounds bad to many to hear that but let's consider. Who was it that created the commandment? - God. Who knew that Adam and Eve would sin before they broke the commandment? - God. God is responsible for that sin. Adam and Eve are being held accountable for it.
Paul
Accountable and/or Responsible?
"Two sides of the same coin."
There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on April 03, 2009, 06:30:49 AM
Accountable and/or Responsible?
"Two sides of the same coin."
There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?
peacemaker
Man is accountable in that he will have debt owed when he has sin.
God is responsible in that God is the one that allows debt to exist and be accumulated for the very purpose and desire to remove it.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 03, 2009, 05:51:18 AM
God has planned everything. God holds us accountable for sin but not responsible for it. God is responsible for all the evils in the world. That sounds bad to many to hear that but let's consider. Who was it that created the commandment? - God. Who knew that Adam and Eve would sin before they broke the commandment? - God. God is responsible for that sin. Adam and Eve are being held accountable for it.
Paul
IMO, scripture's pretty clear;
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."..
Sometimes due to our own personal paradigm, I believe we all sometimes go through contortions to try and make the Word fit our own beliefs. God challenges us to learn of Him, not of man's tradition. Does this make me uncomfortable? You bet. Do I have a total handle on all this? Not even close. But my need is for God to change
me, whatever the confrontation from scripture and His spirit may be .... big challenge to me...easy for God. Fortunately He loves us, and "the end of the Lord is full of mercy" :thumbsup:.
QuoteJesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father. But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.
Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:
1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching. That hearing leads to faith. So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.
2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ. Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster. So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ. It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.
Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.
The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command. It even states why God intended it. That road for pharoah was not the way. It did not lead the pharoah to the Father. But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.
Hi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.
QuoteI do realize it. Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.
Then I don't know how you can believe it bro.
QuoteYour belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues. To be frank it is mere hand-waving.
If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it
If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.
If His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.
ALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.
QuoteYes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father. Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.
So what does that mean?
Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?
They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.
God gave us commandments to follow Bob and if man would OBEY them then these things would not be. He gave us the WAY from the very beginning but man left his first love and cleaved unto another.
On the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?
God does see these awful things bro and He weeps and say Jerusalem, Jerusalem I want to gather you under my wing but ye would not.
QuoteYes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop. No difference.
The difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.
QuoteGod has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good. I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good. Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good. And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.
Yes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil? Are God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?
The eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.
You think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.
Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?
If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?
QuoteExcept God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh. Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.
Satan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.
QuoteMy question for you Scott is this:
How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?
God already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word
OBEDIENCE
If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.
God bless
hi Scott,
I appreciate your view, and willingness to share. Gives me some things to think about.
Where do you see "forgive them for they know not what they do" come in versus "not being deceived".
Adam was not deceived. I think that is key. He walked with God, he was mature, and knew Love, but chose to disobey
Eve on the other hand, disobeyed from a place of being deceived. She was imo deceived; not having knowledge of love.
Do you see Adam and Eve and "in all of us, two separate components of our mind?" or as two separate individuals in the world today?? or what do you see??
thanks
Z
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 02:03:05 PM
QuoteJesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father. But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.
Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:
1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching. That hearing leads to faith. So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.
2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ. Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster. So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ. It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.
Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.
The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command. It even states why God intended it. That road for pharoah was not the way. It did not lead the pharoah to the Father. But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.
Hi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.
QuoteI do realize it. Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.
Then I don't know how you can believe it bro.
QuoteYour belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues. To be frank it is mere hand-waving.
If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it
If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.
If His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.
ALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.
QuoteYes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father. Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.
So what does that mean?
Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?
They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.
God gave us commandments to follow Bob and if man would OBEY them then these things would not be. He gave us the WAY from the very beginning but man left his first love and cleaved unto another.
On the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?
God does see these awful things bro and He weeps and say Jerusalem, Jerusalem I want to gather you under my wing but ye would not.
QuoteYes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop. No difference.
The difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.
QuoteGod has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good. I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good. Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good. And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.
Yes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil? Are God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?
The eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.
You think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.
Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?
If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?
QuoteExcept God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh. Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.
Satan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.
QuoteMy question for you Scott is this:
How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?
God already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word
OBEDIENCE
If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.
God bless
Scott,
God knows the end from the beginning. Anyone that sins - God knew they would in advance. If God is all powerful then there is nothing beyond His power. So if God has a plan then that plan cannot fail to be carried out to perfection since God is all powerful. So sin and the practice thereof was part of God's plan from the beginning. So, this means that God knew their would be sins such as murder and child molestation and more. That means that God had those sins in His plan. This doesn't mean that God's nature practices those things. So let's separate what God's nature is and what He has planned. So because someone believes it is of God's plan that sins happens doesn't mean it is God's nature. For the sin that we performed has a place in understanding Good. How would we know light if there was never darkness. How would we know Goodness if there was never evil. Don't be discouraged to understand this as if it is tainted with a defamation of God's character for that is not the case. God in all this is still 100 percent Good. Be patient in this understanding and look from this perspective a bit and I'm confident you too will identify with it.
Paul
Quote from: Pneuma
If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.
Hi Pneuma,
God created man in sinful flesh, put him in the garden and put a serpent and the tree of good and evil in there. If it wasn't God's intention for man to sin why did God do these things? We were created in sinful flesh that was weak, profiteth nothing, created in infirmity. God didn't ask our opinion on any of this. it says we cannot please God in the flesh. Man was created with a deceitful heart. Now with all these things against man how could he not have sinned? it seems it was all in the plan of God.
Some say that Satan caused all these things and he does but Satan, whatever he may be is powerless without God's approval. I don't believe God tempts man, he gave that job to satan. He handles evil indirectly not directly, that is why we can't see that it is from God. If all things were created by God, visible and invisible and all things consist by him how could all of this not be God's doing? God fixed it so all of these things would be exactly the way they are. Yes, He weaves it all but he also planned it all too.
CHB
Quotehi Scott,
I appreciate your view, and willingness to share. Gives me some things to think about.
Where do you see "forgive them for they know not what they do" come in versus "not being deceived".
Adam was not deceived. I think that is key. He walked with God, he was mature, and knew Love, but chose to disobey
Eve on the other hand, disobeyed from a place of being deceived. She was imo deceived; not having knowledge of love.
Hi Zeek, there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death, Eve being deceived was not a sin unto death, Adam's open disobedience is a sin unto death. That's why death did not enter the picture until Adam disobeyed.
QuoteDo you see Adam and Eve and "in all of us, two separate components of our mind?" or as two separate individuals in the world today?? or what do you see??
We are both Adam and Eve, they are joined into this one flesh, the eve/soul in us can be deceived the Adam/spirit is not deceived but walks in open disobedience. He is the spirit that is "instead of" (anti) Christ, the old man in each of us.
QuoteGod knows the end from the beginning. Anyone that sins - God knew they would in advance. If God is all powerful then there is nothing beyond His power. So if God has a plan then that plan cannot fail to be carried out to perfection since God is all powerful.
Hi Paul
Yes God knows the end from the beginning, and yes He is all powerful, but God gave man the FREEDOM to make a choice between life and death.
In other words, God gave man the choice of which path or journey, man would take, the path of life or the path of death. Just because God knew man would sin does not mean He planned for man to sin.
Is the father of the prodigal son to blame for all that his son went through just because he gave his son his inheritance?
Hardly, Yet that is exactly what you are saying of God. God gave man an inheritance, man spent it unwisely and you are blaming God for what man did with his inheritance instead of blaming man himself.
QuoteSo sin and the practice thereof was part of God's plan from the beginning.
Then so too is the molestation of children part of Gods plan, does not the spirit within you withdraw from such a thought? God might have just as well held the child down if He planned it all along.
QuoteSo, this means that God knew their would be sins such as murder and child molestation and more. That means that God had those sins in His plan. This doesn't mean that God's nature practices those things.
God does not plan anything outside of His nature, if I plan murder than carry out that murder, it comes from what is in my nature.
Your making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.
A mob boss contracting out a hit is just as much a murderer as the one who performed the hit.
QuoteSo let's separate what God's nature is and what He has planned.
You cannot separate them because what one plans comes from within one's mind. Therefore, you are saying God is a murder and molester of children.
QuoteSo because someone believes it is of God's plan that sins happens doesn't mean it is God's nature. For the sin that we performed has a place in understanding Good.
Did Jesus sin? Did He understand good?
So how can you say sin is required to understand good?
QuoteHow would we know light if there was never darkness? How would we know Goodness if there was never evil?
How did Christ know light before there was darkness? How did Christ know good before there was evil?
QuoteDon't be discouraged to understand this as if it is tainted with a defamation of God's character for that is not the case. God in all this is still 100 percent Good. Be patient in this understanding and look from this perspective a bit and I'm confident you too will identify with it.
I have walked in your perspective Paul and blamed God for all the crap that has happened in my life, and it was not until He told me to grow up and take responsibility for my own choices that I gained a measure of peace.
Did you know that a child molester when caught never blames himself for his molesting of the child, that he blames the child instead? That is the reason why it is so hard to rehabilitate one; they blame everything and everyone else for their sin.
Kind of like people blaming God for their actions.
QuoteGod created man in sinful flesh , put him in the garden and put a serpent and the tree of good and evil in there.
Hi sis, no God created man from the dust of the earth, it was not until mans disobedience that he was given the skin/flesh of animals.
And God never put the serpent there, the serpent was FREE to go to and fro throughout the earth.
QuoteIf it wasn't God's intention for man to sin why did God do these things? We were created in sinful flesh that was weak, profiteth nothing, created in infirmity. God didn't ask our opinion on any of this. it says we cannot please God in the flesh. Man was created with a deceitful heart. Now with all these things against man how could he not have sinned? it seems it was all in the plan of God.
God created man GOOD, the devil sowed all that other crap into man.
QuoteSome say that Satan caused all these things and he does but Satan, whatever he may be is powerless without God's approval. I don't believe God tempts man, he gave that job to satan. He handles evil indirectly not directly, that is why we can't see that it is from God.
So in effect, God is the mob boss who sends out the murderer to murder, that makes God just as much a murderer as the one He sent out to perform the task.
QuoteIf all things were created by God, visible and invisible and all things consist by him how could all of this not be God's doing? God fixed it so all of these things would be exactly the way they are. Yes, He weaves it all but he also planned it all too.
God did NOT sow the tares sis, scripture testifies to that fact.
God created ALL things GOOD, but some of God's creation have corrupted THEMSELVES.
Deuteronomy 32:1-5
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
Jude 10
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
God did NOT plan for man to become corrupt, man corrupted themselves.
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 02:03:05 PMHi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.
Yes, but Jesus statement about being the only Way to the Father was also AFTER man was disobedient.
So AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)
So Jesus being the only Way to the Father does not preclude the existence of roads leading to that way.
QuoteThen I don't know how you can believe it bro.
It doesn't seem just to my mind that God smacked righteous Job around either. Should I not believe that?
It doesn't seem just to my mind that God willed the innocent Jesus Christ to submit to cruel murder. Should I not believe that?
I trust God has good reasons and will make good.
Besides that, as I stated in my previous post and again below, your view offers no better "way out" for God regarding the existence of evil.
QuoteIf His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.
The innocent child did not make his bed in hell even if the pedophile did. So again I ask: Why does God not stop the pedophile from harming the innocent child?
QuoteALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.
What way did God give the innocent child to escape from the pedophile?
QuoteGod already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word
OBEDIENCE
The innocent child did not disobey. Again, what way did God give the innocent child to escape?
QuoteThe difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.
You say God did not plan it, yet you have not explained why God did not STOP it. It is hand-waving to pretend that not stopping it is not a plan. You need to give the reason God does not stop it given that the world now contains evil and an innocent child is about to be subjected to that evil.
QuoteOn the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?
I did not say "it is all of God". I say God intended it. When pharoah disobeyed God, God intended it, but it was not "all of God". Though God hardened pharoah's heart, pharoah also hardened his own heart, and made his own choices. So it was "of pharhoah" too. This is easy to understand if you just consider your own choices. You make all your choices, but your choices are influenced by others. Your heart can be hardened or softened by what others say and do. I believe God will ultimately soften everyones heart, in effect giving them a new heart. That does not remove anyone from having to make choices and follow the path God requires them to follow.
QuoteYes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil?
The phrase "of God" is loaded. It makes it sound like God condones sin but He does not even when He intends it. God intended a messenger of Satan to be a thron in Paul's side but God did not condone what Satan was doing because Satan's intentions were evil.
QuoteAre God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?
No. For example, God was not the same as Satan when God sent Satan to smite Job. God's intention was good in His use of evil, Satan's intention is evil. Evil proceeded from Satan's heart, no evil proceeded from God's heart towards Job, only good. Satan's sin came from Satan's heart, not Gods.
Likewise when God bruised Jesus. God's intended good, the men who carried it out intended evil.
QuoteThe eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.
Was God evil when He willed that Jesus Christ submit Himself to be tortured and murdered? Why not? How does requiring an innocent man to be murdered not APPEAR TO BE similarly horrible? Because we SEE the REASON. That's why. Just because I can not see God's reason for letting an innocent child suffer does not mean that there isn't one.
QuoteSatan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.
Still does not explain why God GAVE Paul into Satan's hand so Satan could work his evil-personified against Paul.
QuoteYou think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.
Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?
If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?
What are the alternatives Scott with which to comfort them:
"God was watching but could not stop it"
"God was watching but did not stop it because of
<fill in the blank>"
For me
<fill in the blank> is that God has a good reason and will make it right as He did with Job.
I'm still waiting for your
<fill in the blank> as to why God does not save the innocent child.
From my vantage point my question is still outstanding. Saying that God did not intend for pedophiles to exist is no explanation for why God does not save the innocent child GIVEN that a pedophile does exist and God sees the pedophile about to harm the child.
God bless,
Bob
QuoteYes, but Jesus statement about being the only Way to the Father was also AFTER man was disobedient.
But what was His WAY Bob? Obedience.
Adam had the SAME choice.
QuoteSo AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)
Well glad to see you put this down to AFTER man was disobedient Bob, which shows if you can see it that disobedience was not a part of God plan. But AFTER mans disobedience God responded to the clay, weaving man under the law back to Christ. There is only ONE WAY/PLAN and that is CHRIST and God weaves everything back to Him.
QuoteIt doesn't seem just to my mind that God smacked righteous Job around either. Should I not believe that?
It doesn't seem just to my mind that God willed the innocent Jesus Christ to submit to cruel murder. Should I not believe that?
I am not saying don't believe those things Bob I am trying to get you to look at them from a different perspective, that perspective through what Christ revealed of the Father, not the perspective of the Father revealed through Adam.
Again and again Bob I have said I cannot explain it all to you, I can only give the light given to me. So if we see something written in scripture that shows the Father in a different light then the Father Jesus revealed we are still seeing the Father through the vail or shadow and do not see Him clearly.
QuoteI trust God has good reasons and will make good.
Besides that, as I stated in my previous post and again below, your view offers no better "way out" for God regarding the existence of evil.
Yes it does Bob, but you are not hearing me.
QuoteThe innocent child is not the one being disobedient. So again I ask: Why does God not stop the pedophile from harming the innocent child?
Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
QuoteWhat way did God give the innocent child to escape from the pedophile?
Do you not believe His promises that none of these things would come nigh our dwelling if we are obedient?
People put their children in harm's way all the time brother, but you are blaming God because of mans refusal to obey.
QuoteThe innocent child did not disobey. Again, what way did God give the innocent child to escape?
Through the obedience of their parents. Why do you blame God for the molestation of the child? Should you not rather be blaming satan and man?
QuoteYou say God did not plan it, yet you have not explained why God did not STOP it. It is hand-waving to pretend that not stopping it is not a plan. You need to give the reason God does not stop it given that the world now contains evil and an innocent child is about to be subjected to that evil.
Yes I have explain that Bob, it's called FREEDOM to make a choice.
QuoteI did not say "it is all of God". I say God intended it. When pharoah disobeyed God, God intended it, but it was not "all of God". Though God hardened pharoah's, pharoah also hardened his own heart, and made his own choices. This is easy to understand if you just consider your own choices. You make all your choices, but your choices are influenced by others. Your heart can be hardened or softened by what others say and do. I believe God will ultimately soften everyones heart, in effect giving them a new heart. That does not remove anyone from having to make choices and follow the path God requires them to follow.
That's what I call weaving along the path. But a FREE choice is a choice made and it does not matter what outside or inside influences bombard us, we still make a FREE choice.
QuoteThe phrase "of God" is loaded. It makes it sound like God condones sin but He does not even when He intends it.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
It is not just the act of adultery that is sin but also the INTENT behind the act.
Therefore, if God INTENDED sin it is the same as the act of it.
QuoteNo. For example, God was not the same as Satan when God sent Satan to smite Job. God's intention was good in His use of evil, Satan's intention is evil. Evil proceeded from Satan's heart, no evil proceeded from God's heart towards Job, only good. Satan's sin came from Satan's heart, not Gods.
Likewise when God bruised Jesus. God's intended good, the men who carried it out intended evil.
And that is Gods weaving of EVIL. I don't know how to make that any more clear to you brother. Evil is present in this world brother and God weaves good out of that evil.
QuoteWas God evil when He willed that Jesus Christ submit Himself to be tortured and murdered? Why not? How does requiring an innocent man to be murdered not APPEAR TO BE similarly horrible? Because we SEE the REASON. That's why. Just because I can not see God's reason for letting an innocent child suffer does not mean that there isn't one.
Jesus made His own choice here brother He did not have to die on the cross, the choice was HIS. But remember this all came about AFTER sin and death entered into the world and God through Christ weaved sin and death into the good for all mankind.
The molestation of a child is NOT for the good of anyone least of all the child and that should tell us that it is not a part of Gods plan.
QuoteStill does not explain why God GAVE Paul into Satan's hand so Satan could work his evil-personified against Paul.
Weaving the things of this world does answer that question Bob.
QuoteWhat are the alternatives Scott with which to comfort them:
"God was watching but could not stop it"
"God was watching but did not stop it because of <fill in the blank>"
For me <fill in the blank> is that God has a good reason and will make it right as He did with Job.
I'm still waiting for your <fill in the blank> as to why God does not save the innocent child.
From my vantage point my question is still outstanding. Saying that God did not intend for pedophiles to exist is no explanation for why God does not save the innocent child GIVEN that he does exist.
I already gave you the answers brother, but you are not HEARING me and I don't know how else to explain it.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 10:35:54 PMI already gave you the answers brother, but you are not HEARING me and I don't know how else to explain it.
No Scott, you gave a reason as to why you believe there is evil in the world.
But that was not the question. The question was not why are there pedophiles in the world. The question was
why doesn't God stop the pedophile from carrying out his intention.
Why doesn't God spare the child from the disobedience of the pedophile or the child's partents. Does that sound just to you that the child should suffer for the disobedience of others?
Disobedience does not answer that question because God could easily and justly save the child in spite of that disobedience.
Now you have added "freedom" which at least is some kind of answer to the question. God does not save the child because of freedom. Whose freedom? Certainly not the child's. I guess that leaves the freedom of the pedophiile? So God honors the freedom of the pedophile to commit the act but not the freedom of the child to escape it?
If the answer is "freedom" then that implies that God values something (freedom) more than He values the child's well being. So God has what you think is a good reason (freedom) for choosing to not intercede on the childs behalf. So you have subsituted your good reason (freedom) for my good reason (I don't claim to know God's good reason, I just trust that He has one). But "freedom" is clearly not the answer since God has many times interceded against the freedom of man's choices. God did not honor Jonah's freedom to not testify to Nineveh. God did not honor the freedom of those who put the disciples in prison to shut them up in the book of Acts, but sent an angel to save them. God binds Satan in the book of Revelation against his freedom.
So why does God choose not to deliver the child from the sins of others?
I'm asking about God's choice not man's choice.
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 10:35:54 PMQuoteSo AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)
Well glad to see you put this down to AFTER man was disobedient Bob, which shows if you can see it that disobedience was not a part of God plan. But AFTER mans disobedience God responded to the clay, weaving man under the law back to Christ. There is only ONE WAY/PLAN and that is CHRIST and God weaves everything back to Him.
I only put it "after" because
1. If God intended man to be under the Law before & after man sinned then God certainly intended it after man sinned.
2. It makes no difference to my argument if God only intended man to be under the Law only after man sinned.
3. I might as well start from a point you agree with rather than from a point you disagree with.
So "after" man sinned God intended:
1. Man to be under the Law to lead him to Christ
2. Man to follow Christ, which is the way back to the Father
Therefore not every plan God makes or intends is a synonym for the Way because being under the Law precedes faith and precedes being married to Christ.
I have two hands and am only speaking of something, "On the one hand" in the following. That's because on the other hand God has an incalcuable amount of minutae He takes care of in this universe. It is just that because God knows He has an infinity of time ahead and that He can and will do such things as raise the dead His perspective is different than ours. Our values are formed as ignorant, short lived, relatively powerless and very limited beings. It is over for us so quickly, that is, our life in Adamic flesh. We put values on things, like the sins you all have mentioned, that are viewed differently by God. One of the things like this I've considered is the family that lets their lives be ruined, and they really do, over the abduction and/or murder of a child. Certainly we should mourn; but, for those who know more of the truth from God, we are not to mourn as the nations that have no hope. We are supposed to be gaining a Divine perspective on reality.
Quote from: pneuma on April 03, 2009, 10:35:54 PMIt is not just the act of adultery that is sin but also the INTENT behind the act.
I agree.
QuoteTherefore, if God INTENDED sin it is the same as the act of it.
If God ever intended TO SIN it would be the same as the act of it. But God never intends to sin, only to bless in the end with a double portion.
Below is a paragraph taken from the article, "The Purpose of Evil". I think this pretty much sums it up. I don't see how any one can dispute this statement?
CHB
The Purpose of Evil
for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it [was He] who made him a free moral agent; if God made man a free moral agent He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent, as he would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that he had made; man's free moral agency, even if it were true, (which it is not, see 1-1-10) would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts, since God is his creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.
May I add that Our Father has a no child left behind policy
in effect, and while the death of His saints are precious in His
eyes, and He is with them in their sufferings; He himself is
deaths plague. The fiery jealousy of HIS LOVE IS STRONGER
THAN DEATH.
He WILL RECOMPENSE ABUNDANTLY ALL THAT HAVE
SUFFERED,FOR WHATEVER THEY HAVE SUFFERED
DURING THIS TRIALSOME TIME OF SUFFERING EVIL
He did not say that those that seek Him,seek Him in vain
WE MUST KNOW AND BELIVE THAT HE IS THE REWARDER
Anything that we may suffer..is nothing compared to the
Glory that is to be revealed
My sister Rose had heard on the news about a little girl
that was abducted and molested and murdered. She was so
greived and troubled by it. She went to the Father with it..
He told her, it's alright she's with me,she's fine..she doesn't
even have a memory of it.
Some of us are going to have to forgive our Father for
undergoing this evil.Elijah came to turn the hearts of the
children unto the fathers and the hearts of the fathers unto the
children. Some of the little children have been very
traumatized by the expierences of this world/life.
Father can practice tough love at times.Rebellious children
may continue in their course until they reap a harvest of death
If nothing else,maybe a real hatred for evil will develope.
Because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of many
will wax cold[how could He allow this?][how many times do
I have to forgive those who sin against me?]
Remember you can not live by an eye for an eye...
you live by grace and have been long-suffered by God,too.
Remember,satan's time is short and the works of the devil
[evil] are to be broke up.
It is your nature to be repulsed by such great evil..and if
against your divine nature,all the more against His.
At harvest time evil reaps it's just reward
Quote from: trettep on April 03, 2009, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 03, 2009, 06:30:49 AM
Accountable and/or Responsible?
"Two sides of the same coin."
There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?
Man is accountable in that he will have debt owed when he has sin.
God is responsible in that God is the one that allows debt to exist and be accumulated for the very purpose and desire to remove it.
"To put the problems of sin on God's doorstep or an outside entity is to evade the issue and absolve the human race of any responsibility."Are you waiting for the last, great assize?
peacemaker
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope
that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:20,21
Taken from: http://tgulcm.tripod.com/? a UR fellowship
The fact is that few in all the ages have as yet profited by their experience with evil. Rather, many have been turned to unbelief by it. And if we were to base our conclusions on man's limited abilities and his restricted viewpoint, there would be no satisfactory answer as to why God permits evil. In the limited viewpoint of many, death is the end of existence; to others it is the end of all opportunity to learn and profit from past experiences. But such viewpoints are not supported in the Bible.
According to the Bible, those who are asleep in death will be awakened from that sleep and given an opportunity to profit from the experiences of the present life. It often happens now that the difficulties and distresses of a certain day are understood and appreciated at a later time. So it will be, but on a grander scale, for those who are now sleeping in death. When they are awakened, they shall enter another term in their school of experience. When man arises after the present experience is over, the world of mankind will be able to testify to the wisdom of God in allowing the experience of suffering and death. When they are awakened from death, their faulty vision or understanding of God will be corrected. They will rejoice to learn of the gracious and loving provision the Creator has made for them through Christ the Redeemer to ransom them from death. And they will come to perfection of life, when in the light of this true knowledge of God they obey Him by conforming their lives to His standards of right and wrong.
Joy in the Morning
The Psalmist wrote, "Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" (Psa. 30:5).
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Romans 18 -- End Quote
God's blessing, James.
well, God said of the creation of Adam..that it was Very good
but something can be very good and not perfect...
Now we know that we are made perfect when we learn
obediance through suffering. And so there we have it.
The perfect will of our Father.
Therefore a goodly vessel was marred in the potters
hand..but He made of the same 'lump' A perfect vessel
of honor[the Word of God come in flesh]
Therefore we must praise the work of HIS HANDS
living water added and the fire of His Holy spirit can go a long
way toward strengthening these clay vessels and they
will be made anew 'firm' and perfect under His deft fingers
Honorable vessels are just that..they Honor God and Jesus
Christ.
Now Jesus spoke of the spirit being willing and also
of the weakness of the flesh[it's corruptible nature and
proneness of falling] But that did not stop the husbandman
from honouring mankind[those who dwell in clay vessels] as
the weaker vessel.1 Peter 3;7 2 Cor 12;9 But He said to me
'My grace is sufficient for you,for my power is made perfect in
weakness" In what way is God's power made perfect in
weakness? It is because the spirit of God will not fail in
it;s purpose....for He says..by MY SPIRIT...and also this
the flesh profiteth nothing. What is more important, the gift
upon the altar...or the altar that sanctifieth the gift.
What is He saying here? Nothing but this...the Holy spirit
sanctifieth[makes honorable] the vessel. It is not the vessel
that is honorable/it counts as nothing..it is weak in itself
but it is the spirit in it...that is honorable..and the vessel is
sanctified[clean and set apart for a noble purpose] by the
spirit that is in it.
This,issue also,was expounded to Peter by the Holy spirit...
in the vision he received of the sheet coming down three
times.He was told to quit calling unclean what God has
cleansed. IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES A VESSELS
FOR A HONARABLE USE[the Praising of God] The vessel is
honorable for this reason alone, because God uses it,not
because the vessel is Holy of itself..but because the Holy spirit
is in it..in this way..the vessel is used to serve God's purposes
that alone sanctifies it..for it has been set aside for Holy use
and that is what sanctification is.
I read these verses on another forum, and thought they were good.
James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
2 Peter 3:2-4
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
Jude 1:14-17
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Psalm 25:3
No one whose hope is in you will ever be put to shame, but they will be put to shame who are treacherous without excuse.
Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I, God (Creator of all the Universe) did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I, God (the all-powerful, all-knowing and all seeing) never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
From these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
vs.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
:cloud9: Sheila, that's one of the best posts I have ever read; a lot of meat in simplicity. :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
QuoteNo Scott, you gave a reason as to why you believe there is evil in the world.
But that was not the question. The question was not why are there pedophiles in the world. The question was why doesn't God stop the pedophile from carrying out his intention.
Bob I have answered that question two or three times now, here it is again.
Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
QuoteWhy doesn't God spare the child from the disobedience of the pedophile or the child's partents. Does that sound just to you that the child should suffer for the disobedience of others?
The whole world lieth in wickedness brother, there is NOTHING just in that which should tell us that it is NOT of God plan.
QuoteDisobedience does not answer that question because God could easily and justly save the child in spite of that disobedience.
Then why did He not save Adam from death when Adam disobeyed?
God put laws in place, MAN broke those laws, brought sin and death into the world, and the whole world suffers because of mans disobedience.
The whole world does NOT suffer because God planned it that way, they suffer because of disobedience.
QuoteNow you have added "freedom" which at least is some kind of answer to the question. God does not save the child because of freedom. Whose freedom? Certainly not the child's. I guess that leaves the freedom of the pedophiile? So God honors the freedom of the pedophile to commit the act but not the freedom of the child to escape it?
If the answer is "freedom" then that implies that God values something (freedom) more than He values the child's well being. So God has what you think is a good reason (freedom) for choosing to not intercede on the childs behalf. So you have subsituted your good reason (freedom) for my good reason (I don't claim to know God's good reason, I just trust that He has one). But "freedom" is clearly not the answer since God has many times interceded against the freedom of man's choices. God did not honor Jonah's freedom to not testify to Nineveh. God did not honor the freedom of those who put the disciples in prison to shut them up in the book of Acts, but sent an angel to save them. God binds Satan in the book of Revelation against his freedom.
The freedom was there BEFORE the commandment was broken, after it was broken man became a SLAVE unto sin and death. The pedophile and murder are of the EVIL ONE not of God. It is NOT Gods doing it is the EVIL ONES doing.
QuoteSo why does God choose not to deliver the child from the sins of others?
Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
QuoteI'm asking about God's choice not man's choice.
God upholds His laws brother, He warned and said if you eat you will die, man ate, man died. If God never let man die as He forewarned Gods word would not be any good, and God would have been a liar and the serpent would have held the truth.
Zeek pointed out (thanks Zeek) some scriptures that give answer to these question bro, here is one such that gives answer to the child in the hands of the pedophile.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Because of mans disobedience man has sent their sons and daughters into the fire, and this is something God did NOT command nor did it even ENTER INTO HIS MIND.
These things are not of God brother, but rather they are of the EVIL ONE.
Quote from: CHB on April 04, 2009, 01:05:03 AM
Below is a paragraph taken from the article, "The Purpose of Evil". I think this pretty much sums it up. I don't see how any one can dispute this statement?
CHB
The Purpose of Evil
for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it [was He] who made him a free moral agent; if God made man a free moral agent He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent, as he would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that he had made; man's free moral agency, even if it were true, (which it is not, see 1-1-10) would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts, since God is his creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.
I agree with that in part sis, God takes the responsibility because He gave man the FREEDOM of choice, but He is NOT responsible for the choice MAN MADE. If He was then the father of the prodigal is responsible for all the choice his son made for giving him his inheritance. If these things are all a part of His plan sis then what is it we have to repent of?
QuoteFor the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope
When did this take place Jab? This did not happen before man was disobedience and ate but afterwards.
To use another of Zeeks scriptures.
Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For
God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine
our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.
QuoteFrom these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?
Exactly Zeek, God never planned these things, He put laws into place so these things would not happen if man would but obey.
All the crap in this world came into place because of MANS disobedience not because God planned all the crap in the world.
Match these scriptures up with what I have been saying and what some of you have been saying, and then ask yourselves which understanding of God who is LOVE/CHARITY follows after CHARITY.
1 Corinthians 13:4-6
4 Charity suffereth long,
Charity is kind;
Charity envieth not
Charity vaunteth not itself
Charity is not puffed up
Charity Doth not behave itself unseemly
Charity seeketh not her own
Charity is not easily provoked
Charity thinketh no evil
Charity Rejoiceth not in iniquity
Charity rejoiceth in the truth
So how can a God who is love and thinketh NO evil, also be a God who planned out all the evil in this world? For a plan only comes by way of thinking.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:32:28 PM
QuoteFrom these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?
Exactly Zeek, God never planned these things, He put laws into place so these things would not happen if man would but obey.
All the crap in this world came into place because of MANS disobedience not because God planned all the crap in the world.
:thumbsup:
Most certainly! Especially when you consider he created
an adversary that possessed a mind not his own,and that also
contained within it's nature all that is in opposition to him.
a liar from the beginning,a mankiller from the beginning
but,He knows what is hidden in darkness.he knows what is in
Him...therefore he knows what is not in Him.
he knows there is love, he knows there is no love
he knows there is peace,he knows there is no peace
he knows there is righteousness,he knows there is no
righteousness
he knows there is mercy,he knows there is mercilessness
he knows there is the law of love,he knows there is
lawlessness
he knows there is good in him, he knows there is no goodness
he knows there is life, he knows there is no life
he knows what is in his heart and mind, he knows what is
not in his heart and mind
sheila
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:34:09 PM
Match these scriptures up with what I have been saying and what some of you have been saying, and then ask yourselves which understanding of God who is LOVE/CHARITY follows after CHARITY.
So how can a God who is love and thinketh NO evil, also be a God who planned out all the evil in this world? For a plan only comes by way of thinking.
When God thinks to use evil for good, God is thinking no evil.
According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur at any time it would be evil. Yet the scriptures show that God intended Christ to suffer and that God requires Christ's disciples to suffer. Christ was made a little lower than the angels FOR the suffering of death. Even here unto are ye CALLED... to suffer as Christ suffered.
Both of those sufferings were the endurance of evil. God ordained that as a BLESSSING.
Christ's Suffering- Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
<br>
- Mark 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
<br>
- Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
<br>
- Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
<br>
- Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.
<br>
- Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
<br>
- Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
<br>
- Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
<br>
- Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory.
<br>
- Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
<br>
- Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.
Diciples' Suffering- Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
<br>
- Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
<br>
- Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
<br>
- Phillipains 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.
<br>
- 1 Thesselonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
<br>
- 2 Thesselonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 2 Thesselonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.
<br>
- 2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.
<br>
- 2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
<br>
- 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.
<br>
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:32:28 PM
QuoteFrom these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?
Exactly Zeek, God never planned these things, He put laws into place so these things would not happen if man would but obey.
All the crap in this world came into place because of MANS disobedience not because God planned all the crap in the world.
Many have been subjected to a large collection of futilities (i.e. crap) that clutter their minds.
But we are free from their bondage, no longer slaves to corruption!
peacemaker
Quote from: Pneuma
How did Christ know light before there was darkness? How did Christ know good before there was evil?
Hi Pneuma,
You ask how could Christ know good before there was evil, or light from darkness? I believe it is because it was Christ who created it all. Since it was Christ who was our creator he would know all of these things.
CHB
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:24:57 PMBecause this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
Hand waving Scott.
1. Suppose I can prevent a murder at no danger to myself. Suppose I can save someone from drowning at no danger to myself. Suppose I don't. Can my defense be "The world is not my kingdom" so that's why I let the guy drown and the murder take place?
2. God rules in the kingdom of men. Daniel 4.
3. God gave permission to Satan to harm Job yet limited the amount of harm he could do. So God does rule over Satan and over men, but not in the sense that their hearts have become right and in harmony with God.
4. Pilate had no authority to harm Christ except it was given to him by God.
QuoteThen why did He not save Adam from death when Adam disobeyed? God put laws in place, MAN broke those laws, brought sin and death into the world, and the whole world suffers because of mans disobedience.
Apples and oranges. Adam's death was the result of Adam's sin. The child who is about to become the victim of the pedophile did not sin.
QuoteThe freedom was there BEFORE the commandment was broken, after it was broken man became a SLAVE unto sin and death. The pedophile and murder are of the EVIL ONE not of God. It is NOT Gods doing it is the EVIL ONES doing.
The pedophiles evil is no excuse for not saving the innocent child.
QuoteBecause this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
Then why or how did He send an angel to save the disciples from prison?
QuoteGod upholds His laws brother...
The child isn't the one breaking the laws.
QuoteZeek pointed out (thanks Zeek) some scriptures that give answer to these question bro, here is one such that gives answer to the child in the hands of the pedophile.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
That's actually a good argument in that it says "nor did it enter my mind".
But that verse does nothing to address my question by explaining WHY God did not stop them from killing their kids.
:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.
Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.
I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:34:09 PM
Match these scriptures up with what I have been saying and what some of you have been saying, and then ask yourselves which understanding of God who is LOVE/CHARITY follows after CHARITY.
So how can a God who is love and thinketh NO evil, also be a God who planned out all the evil in this world? For a plan only comes by way of thinking.
When God thinks to use evil for good, God is thinking no evil.
According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur at any time it would be evil. Yet the scriptures show that God intended Christ to suffer and that God requires Christ's disciples to suffer. Christ was made a little lower than the angels FOR the suffering of death. Even here unto are ye CALLED... to suffer as Christ suffered.
Both of those sufferings were the endurance of evil. God ordained that as a BLESSSING.
Christ's Suffering
- Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
<br>- Mark 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
<br>- Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
<br>- Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
<br>- Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.
<br>- Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
<br>- Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
<br>- Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
<br>- Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory.
<br>- Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
<br>- Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.
Diciples' Suffering
- Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
<br>- Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
<br>- Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
<br>- Phillipains 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.
<br>- 1 Thesselonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
<br>- 2 Thesselonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 2 Thesselonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.
<br>- 2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.
<br>- 2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
<br>- 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.
<br>
There is a difference between sufferings brother, Christ and us are to suffer for rightiousness sake not suffer as do EVIL doers.
Quote from: CHB on April 05, 2009, 08:32:11 PM
Quote from: Pneuma
How did Christ know light before there was darkness? How did Christ know good before there was evil?
Hi Pneuma,
You ask how could Christ know good before there was evil, or light from darkness? I believe it is because it was Christ who created it all. Since it was Christ who was our creator he would know all of these things.
CHB
Than He did not have to learn anything, which goes against scripture.
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 08:33:45 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:24:57 PMBecause this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
Hand waving Scott.
1. Suppose I can prevent a murder at no danger to myself. Suppose I can save someone from drowning at no danger to myself. Suppose I don't. Can my defense be "The world is not my kingdom" so that's why I let the guy drown and the murder take place?
2. God rules in the kingdom of men. Daniel 4.
3. God gave permission to Satan to harm Job yet limited the amount of harm he could do. So God does rule over Satan and over men, but not in the sense that their hearts have become right and in harmony with God.
4. Pilate had no authority to harm Christ except it was given to him by God.
QuoteThen why did He not save Adam from death when Adam disobeyed? God put laws in place, MAN broke those laws, brought sin and death into the world, and the whole world suffers because of mans disobedience.
Apples and oranges. Adam's death was the result of Adam's sin. The child who is about to become the victim of the pedophile did not sin.
QuoteThe freedom was there BEFORE the commandment was broken, after it was broken man became a SLAVE unto sin and death. The pedophile and murder are of the EVIL ONE not of God. It is NOT Gods doing it is the EVIL ONES doing.
The pedophiles evil is no excuse for not saving the innocent child.
QuoteBecause this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.
Then why or how did He send an angel to save the disciples from prison?
QuoteGod upholds His laws brother...
The child isn't the one breaking the laws.
QuoteZeek pointed out (thanks Zeek) some scriptures that give answer to these question bro, here is one such that gives answer to the child in the hands of the pedophile.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
That's actually a good argument in that it says "nor did it enter my mind".
But that verse does nothing to address my question by explaining WHY God did not stop them from killing their kids.
No it is not hand waving brother, do you not see in your posts that you sound like those who say the Lord has delayed His comming, everthing continues just like it has from the beginning?
What you are basically asking me brother is to explain to you why the Lord has delayed His comming.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 05, 2009, 08:39:50 PM
:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.
Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.
I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....
Sis do you not see those road blocks as Gods weaving of the choices WE make?
I have no problem with the idea that God has made provisions for us when we err, my problem is with God planning out our error.
Big, big difference to me.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:02:04 PMThere is a difference between sufferings brother, Christ and us are to suffer for rightiousness sake not suffer as do EVIL doers.
Of course Scott but that was not the point. God sent Christ into the world to experiennce evil for His benefit and our beneift. God intended that evil to take place though God did not approve of it.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:15:03 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 05, 2009, 08:39:50 PM
:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.
Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.
I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....
Sis do you not see those road blocks as Gods weaving of the choices WE make?
I have no problem with the idea that God has made provisions for us when we err, my problem is with God planning out our error.
Big, big difference to me.
:cloud9: YES, that is what I was trying to communicate. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:11:34 PMWhat you are basically asking me brother is to explain to you why the Lord has delayed His comming.
I'm not taling about why doesn't Christ come or why doesn't God put an end to evil. I'm asking why God does not
save the child which can be done with or without putting down evil and which God HAS done in certain instances.
God has SOME GOOD REASON for not saving the child. God has SOME GOOD REASON for allowing the evil to play out.
We know of God's good reason for allowing evil to play out in some instances:
In the case of Christ it was because God WANTED CHRIST TO SUFFER AND DIE for our sins. That was God's good reason to allow that evil to play out.
In the case of Christ's disciples God WANTED AND WANTS us to SUFFER as Christ suffered. That was & is God's good reason to allow tat evil to play out.
In the case of the child I do not know God's good reason. I only know that God must have one.
If God has a good reason for allowing these evils to play out while they are occuring (by not intervening) then God can just as easily have a good reason for the same evils occuring in the first place.
QuoteNo it is not hand waving brother
It is and I showed why. Such a "reason" would NEVER stand up in any just court of law. I could have prevented it but I didn't because I am not king of the world. Sorry but that is not a reason.
Aside from that it is not even true in the sense that God HAS intervened in that fashion.
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 09:37:45 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:02:04 PMThere is a difference between sufferings brother, Christ and us are to suffer for rightiousness sake not suffer as do EVIL doers.
Of course Scott but that was not the point. God sent Christ into the world to experiennce evil for His benefit and our beneift. God intended that evil to take place though God did not approve of it.
Bob we are talking about TWO different things.
Gods PLAN/WAY did NOT include mans disobedience and death, but since man has corrupted himself God weaves mans EVIL in order to get man OUT OF DEATH and back into His PLAN/WAY.
From what I am reading of what you have been saying is you are mixing Gods PLAN/WAY up with Gods WEAVING and calling them the SAME thing.
IMO, God doesn't plan our error, but He does have a plan that includes evil, as scripture teaches. I believe He does present scenarios, life situations, within which we're required to choose...and by doing so, including His discipline for when we do err...in the process, conforming our will to His, and shaping us into His likeness. In that regard, as I understand it, He does send the evil to test and purify us. However, always, He wants us to choose the good, and through His tuteledge and Spirit, enables us to increasingly do so. My :2c:. I believe, still God directing our steps. He apparently doesn't want off the hook, because as He says in Isaiah, He sends evil...and in the NT, that He blinds, and that HE chooses. Seems it's us that doesn't understand and often try to explain it away...I've done it, because I either didn't get it, or it made me too uncomfortable.
QuoteI'm not taling about why doesn't Christ come or why doesn't God put an end to evil. I'm asking why God does not save the child which can be done with or without putting down evil and which God HAS done in certain instances.
They are the same question brother, because when Christ comes and sets up His kingdom the child will be saved.
And you asking why he is not saved now, and I keep telling you it because the kingdoms of this world are not YET the kingdoms of Christ.
QuoteIt is and I showed why. Such a "reason" would NEVER stand up in any just court of law. I could have prevented it but I didn't because I am not king of the world. Sorry but that is not a reason.
Try going into another country and imposing your laws on that country brother and then tell me such a reason would never stand up in court. We are sojourners in this country brother, this country is NOT ours.
QuoteAside from that it is not even true in the sense that God HAS intervened in that fashion.
Yes through weaving.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 05, 2009, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:15:03 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 05, 2009, 08:39:50 PM
:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.
Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.
I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....
Sis do you not see those road blocks as Gods weaving of the choices WE make?
I have no problem with the idea that God has made provisions for us when we err, my problem is with God planning out our error.
Big, big difference to me.
:cloud9: YES, that is what I was trying to communicate. :thumbsup: Blessings....
:thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:55:31 PMBob we are talking about TWO different things.
Gods PLAN/WAY did NOT include mans disobedience and death, but since man has corrupted himself God weaves mans EVIL in order to get man OUT OF DEATH and back into His PLAN/WAY.
From what I am reading of what you have been saying is you are mixing Gods PLAN/WAY up with Gods WEAVING and calling them the SAME thing.
I'm not calling them the same, I'm saying both are true. God both intended it and weaved it to good.
If you weave evil into good it means you do not intend for the evil to occur but given that it occurs you manage to bring about a blessing from the evil. So there is the difference. I understand the difference. I believe God is doing both. Both intending the evil to occurn AND weaving the evil into good, though never approving of the evil being done.
I you only weave evil into good then you
must be powerless to prevent the evil. Otherwise you
would prevent the evil if you could. I you can prevent the evil and don't you CHOOSE for the evil to play out.
And God says that He intended for that evil to play out since God says He sent Christ into the world TO DIE. It does not say God intended Christ TO NOT DIE but once Christ died God managed to weave it into good. It says "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done".
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 09:59:02 PM
IMO, God doesn't plan our error, but He does have a plan that includes evil, as scripture teaches. I believe He does present scenarios, life situations, within which we're required to choose...and by doing so, including His discipline for when we do err...in the process, conforming our will to His, and shaping us into His likeness. In that regard, as I understand it, He does send the evil to test and purify us. Always, He wants us to choose the good, and through His tuteledge and Spirit, enables us to increasingly do so. My :2c:. I believe, still God directing our steps.
Jab the only thing I would change in what you said is "He
does have a plan that includes evil".
I would say God made provisions for the EVILS that man brought into the world, weaving those EVILS for good.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:14:15 PM
Jab the only thing I would change
Well, don't :icon_joker:
Wow, we're pretty close on this one :laughing7: :thumbsup:....I added this though, and (unfortunately for our agreement level (:winkgrin:) I still believe it...He apparently doesn't want off the hook, because as He says in Isaiah, He sends evil...and in the NT, that He blinds, and that HE chooses, creates vessels of dishonor (that He will reconcile) etc. Sometimes I haven't understood that and have even tried to explain it away...I've done it, perhaps because I either didn't get it, or it made me too uncomfortable, etc. In His "bringing me out", this has been one of the painful ones He's dealt with me on...my poor old orthodox eyes have really struggled with this one :sweat:...Sometimes I'm a slow study :mblush:
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 10:12:58 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 09:55:31 PMBob we are talking about TWO different things.
Gods PLAN/WAY did NOT include mans disobedience and death, but since man has corrupted himself God weaves mans EVIL in order to get man OUT OF DEATH and back into His PLAN/WAY.
From what I am reading of what you have been saying is you are mixing Gods PLAN/WAY up with Gods WEAVING and calling them the SAME thing.
I'm not calling them the same, I'm saying both are true. God both intended it and weaved it to good.
If you weave evil into good it means you do not intend for the evil to occur but given that it occurs you manage to bring about a blessing from the evil. So there is the difference. I understand the difference. I believe God is doing both. Both intending the evil to occurn AND weaving the evil into good, though never approving of the evil being done.
I you only weave evil into good then you must be powerless to prevent the evil. Otherwise you would prevent the evil if you could. I you can prevent the evil and don't you CHOOSE for the evil to play out.
And God says that He intended for that evil to play out since God says He sent Christ into the world TO DIE. It does not say God intended Christ TO NOT DIE but once Christ died God managed to weave it into good. It says "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done".
Bob you are mixing them up brother, every time you bring Christ death into the equasion you are speaking of what took place AFTER mans disobedience.
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.
If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God
instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.
We see this very principal brought out in
1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.
And I think the reason God commanded these sacrifices and offerings was so that the people would see what a heinous act it was that they must slay an innocent life for their own sinful ways.
Ezekiel 20:25
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.
Jesus was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:07:34 PMTry going into another country and imposing your laws on that country brother and then tell me such a reason would never stand up in court. We are sojourners in this country brother, this country is NOT ours.
I'm talking about righteous justice Scott, not unust court systems. I'm asking, under what form of righteous justice could God possibly not save an innocent child from a pedophile based on the excuse "I'm not yet king of this world" ? That excuse would not stand up under any somewhat-just court system in this world. Furthermore God has been known to intervene and save some while God is not yet king of this world.
QuoteYes through weaving.
Then why does God not "weave" the child likewise into safety from the pedophile? God must have some good reason. God CHOSES not to weave the child into safety in many cases.
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 10:29:05 PM
Jesus was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world :mshock:
Which world bro? read my replies to Doc on this question.
I see it different then the norm, but that propably don't suprise you by now :laughing7:
Ah, I remember seeing something about your POV on that...
For all,
I recommend Thomas Kissinger's Noble Berean for what I consider to be a good read on God's plan ... http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ ...he also sends out really nice little UR snippets to one's email if you register with him...very useful for sharing UR with others :thumbsup:
QuoteThen why does God not "weave" the child likewise into safety from the pedophile? God must have some good reason. God CHOSES not to weave the child into safety in many cases.
Bob I can't give you any other answer than I already have, Like I have said over and over I don't have all the answers and can only give what Light has been given me.
So explain why God planned for the child to be in the hands of a pedophle, and what good He planned it for?
these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:
Quote from: IceDash on April 05, 2009, 10:42:58 PM
these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:
I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I
chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic. Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:
Quote from: IceDash on April 05, 2009, 10:42:58 PM
these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:
Hi ID although there is relevence to freewill, freewill is NOT the focus, and that makes that difference. although the mods are free to do as they see fit.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:26:59 PMBob you are mixing them up brother, every time you bring Christ death into the equasion you are speaking of what took place AFTER mans disobedience. God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
Scott I already addressed that a few posts ago when I said "at any time" here:
"According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur
at any time it would be evil."
By "at any time" I was referring specifically to before the fall or after the fall.
Even if God did not originally intend for Christ to die (which I don't believe but ok) God later did intend for Christ to die since it says God sent Christ into the world for the very purpose of DYING for our sins. God did not just weave it into good after Christ's unintended death. God intended for Him to die, be crucified, be murdered. That was evil being played out that God intended.
And ID, that was a quick judgment call, I'll look at it some more and compare and think about some things...you've probably got some good questions and statements, that if carefully stated will fit in this topic.
Quote from: Pneuma
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
Hi Pneuma,
It sounds like you are saying it was all up to us as to whether Christ was crucified? It sounds like you are saying, God was helpless and had no other choice because man defeated God's will?
I believe this life with all the good and bad is a learning experience that God intended from the beginning. It is God's way of teaching us things while in the flesh that otherwise we wouldn't know. When we experience evil and God rescues us, or turns things around, we learn of God's mercy, compassion. Because God gave us evil, and we suffer sometimes, we will learn forgiveness by forgiving God. God forgives us and we forgive God, we become one.
I don't think any of us will know all there is to know on this while in the flesh.
CHB
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 10:47:51 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:26:59 PMBob you are mixing them up brother, every time you bring Christ death into the equasion you are speaking of what took place AFTER mans disobedience. God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
Scott I already addressed that a few posts ago when I said "at any time" here:
"According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur at any time it would be evil."
By "at any time" I was referring specifically to before the fall or after the fall.
Even if God did not originally intend for Christ to die (which I don't believe but ok) God later did intend for Christ to die since it says God sent Christ into the world for the very purpose of DYING for our sins. God did not just weave it into good after Christ's unintended death. God intended for Him to die, be crucified, be murdered. That was evil being played out that God intended.
Again bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.
ONE is God Plan/way BEFORE disobedience and death, the other is God provison AFTER disobedience and death.
You cannot say they are both Gods plan/way for one follows obedience to life and the other follows disobedience to death.
My WAYS are NOT your WAYS.
What was MANS WAY?
Disobedience and death
and God says that is NOT His WAY.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:37:51 PMBob I can't give you any other answer than I already have, Like I have said over and over I don't have all the answers and can only give what Light has been given me.
So explain why God planned for the child to be in the hands of a pedophle, and what good He planned it for?
My answer is I don't know what God's reason is. I trust that God has a good reason. That's the extent of my anwser. I trust that God knows what He's doing.
Why do I think God has a good reason?
God certainly SEES the child about to become a victim.
- A sparrow can not fall to the ground apart from the Father.
God certainly CAN save the child.
- Jesus could have called on angels to save Him.
- God saved the disciples from prison.
- On other occaisons God did NOT save, e.g. Stephen.
So where does that leave me? It leaves me with God CHOOSES NOT to save the child. To me that is the only honest answer. If anyone has another answer I'd like to see it.
Also, part of my answer would also be tied up in "Fear not them who can destroy the body."
We probably place way to much importance on our life in the flesh. When with God in His kingdom looking back I suspect that the spiritual work God has performed in us will FAR FAR outweigh the value we place on our lives in the flesh.
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: IceDash on April 05, 2009, 10:42:58 PM
these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:
I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic. Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:
Sorry I didn't know the free wills stuff is a problem, I didn't see warning about it guess I have to be more careful of what i said before thing get too hot, anyway
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:59:15 PMAgain bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.
Then do you agree that God's provision after man's disobedience includes intending evil to take place? e.g. Christ's crucifixion?
Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 10:45:28 PMI agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic. Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:
Thanks... me & Scott are not going to get mad at each other. Yeah I called one point "hand waving" which I felt bad saying but I also felt the need to say and I appreciate Scotts honesty too when he tells me like he sees it without mincing words.
QuoteHi Pneuma,
It sounds like you are saying it was all up to us as to whether Christ was crucified? It sounds like you are saying, God was helpless and had no other choice because man defeated God's will?
No man cannot defeat God will sis, Gods will is for ALL to be obedient and ALL will. But the scriptures I posted show that God did NOT want SACRIFICE He wanted obedience. And sacrifice only came about because of disobedience.
QuoteI believe this life with all the good and bad is a learning experience that God intended from the beginning. It is God's way of teaching us things while in the flesh that otherwise we wouldn't know. When we experience evil and God rescues us, or turns things around, we learn of God's mercy, compassion. Because God gave us evil, and we suffer sometimes, we will learn forgiveness by forgiving God. God forgives us and we forgive God, we become one.
I know you and other believe it after this fashion sis, I just see it differently.
QuoteI don't think any of us will know all there is to know on this while in the flesh.
I don't claim to have all the answer sis, I have said repeatedly that I can only give what light is given me.
Quote from: Zeek on April 05, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)
I think God is talking about the animal sacrifice that he doesn't want it anymore from israel in Isisah also.
Interesting, after God save the Israel from the slavery of eypty, Mose lead them out, they learn everything what their's old gods like "RA" is a fearful god, If God arrive with love, they will not fear him because They believe God should be mean and tough so God gave them one by arrive with boom and thunderstorm in the mountain, and they was scared %^$& out of their's life and ask Moses to tell God to stay far away from them but Moses said not to be afraid of them
Did you know that Moses and his priest have a picnic with God "HIMSELF" sitting with them, eating and laughing on the top of the mountain, DID YA KNOW THAT?!
Quote from: Zeek on April 05, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)
Can you add a comment to that? I don't see cleary the point you are making. My guess is that you are pointing out that God did not intend Christ to be crucified originally but that's just a guess.
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 11:10:14 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 05, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)
Can you add a comment to that? I don't see cleary the point you are making. My guess is that you are pointing out that God did not intend Christ to be crucified originally but that's just a guess.
that's what i'm thinking. But then again, i got a lot going on in my brain. I am, without taking this post too far off topic, don't see how "agape" love requires the brutal sacrifice of a son.
Did you know that God "HIMSELF" bury moses in the ground after he died
That's how much he love all of us, he bury moses because moses couldn't touch the promised land and it pain God
This is what I see in my mind what it look like:
Moses look on his people walking into the promised land, while God himself standing next to Moses, "You will, Moses, just not now until i return" said God, putting his hand on Moses's shoulder to ease his fear of losing his life and dying, as Moses dying (God cry) Moses ask, "Will you save me from destruction?" as Moses's eye heavy into sleeping, God answer, "Don't worry, I already have, I love you and the moment you sleep, you will wake up in just a second, while I must wait for you"
moses die, God cry bitter and bury him himself
That how God love us all. how touching....
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 11:02:16 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 10:59:15 PMAgain bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.
Then do you agree that God's provision after man's disobedience includes intending evil to take place? e.g. Christ's crucifixion?
AFTER the fact, maybe I can agree but need to think more on that because of your use of the word intending. But if you use it as Gods provision and not as Gods PLAN/WAY I think we might be getting close to agreement.
Quote from: Zeek on April 05, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: bobf on April 05, 2009, 11:08:10 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 10:45:28 PMI agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic. Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:
Thanks... me & Scott are not going to get mad at each other. Yeah I called one point "hand waving" which I felt bad saying but I also felt the need to say and I appreciate Scotts honesty too when he tells me like he sees it without mincing words.
I agree with Bob here, what might look like we are getting mad at each other is not really the case, we are both just speaking plainly to one another without the butter on the bread.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 11:22:12 PMAFTER the fact, maybe I can agree but need to think more on that because of your use of the word intending. But if you use it as Gods provision and not as Gods PLAN/WAY I think we might be getting close to agreement.
I would not use the word "way" because that is tied to "I am the way" and phrases like this is the "way to be" which the crucifixion of Christ was obviously not a good way to be. The act and the hearts of those carrying out the act were no way in harmony with God's will, it was an act of hatred and murder.
I believe it was God's will, wish, want, desire, intention, plan for Christ to be crucified. Not in any way shape or form for the evil itself (God is completely against that) but for the sake of showing us the Father, showing us what "love your enemies" really entails, how far it goes. None of that could have been on full display apart from Christ's crucifixion actually taking place. I do believe Christ's death was a provision but not in the sense that God had hoped things would turn out differently.
I use the word intention to distinguish between what God wills to happen from God's ultimate will for mankind & what God approves of. God commanded pharoah to do one thing yet God worked against His own command.
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 11:25:51 PMI agree with Bob here, what might look like we are getting mad at each other is not really the case, we are both just speaking plainly to one another without the butter on the bread.
:icon_flower: Thanks bro! :HeartThrob:
Yes, ID, good points. And good job everyone, keeping this on track...the spirit is good, sharing AS WE SEE IT, AS WE UNDERSTAND it...as pneuma said, we have the light that's given us...I REALLY believe God brings us each along at His pace, we're at different points. For instance, the preacher who preaches hell-fire will one day be allowed a different view :thumbsup:, as were we...IMO, same in MANY other areas. Carry on :thumbsup:.
mankind can and does learn from positive and negative
lessons.
We can and do learn obediance from suffering for
disobediance.Whether it be our own or someone elses.
We can and do learn righteousness and peace , the fruit
of positive as well
Paul spoke of us being a spectacle...there is more to what he
said about that. Ezekiel speaks of wings full of eyes, newly
resurrected men raised to heaven actually watch us wrestle with
these principalities of darkness.
They watch the wicked forces lay traps and deception and
snares to entangle and overcome men into sin.
They see the Holy spirit resisting the machinations.
So, we do in fact suffer for the benefit of others in many
different ways.
There is always a plot,an adversary and an overcomer
in every good moral lesson story
For instance...
taken any good vs evil movie. See the hidden agenda
that you as the watcher see, but the one conspired against is
unaware of.
Also, to further assure that we know evil is approaching the
unsuspecting character in the movie...there will be the
familiar sound effects so you will know it is approaching
though the character be taken totally by surprise.
You have eyes of discernment to see what is going on
behind the scenes..whereas the character is often oblivious
to the evil plot being implemented against him
Quote from: jabcat on April 05, 2009, 10:29:05 PM
Jesus was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world
[Paraphrased]
Jesus was BUTCHERED (violently murdered, or slain) because of the DISPOSITION AND OPPOSITION (foundation) of the INHABITANTS (world).It seems to me that the death of Jesus was brought about through human decisions, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message (the Kingdom) and what he represented to the status quo would ultimately lead to a violent death, thus, his life was an issue in setting the captives free from the established religiosity of the sects. But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another.
peacemaker
God takes responsibility...IMO, God doesn't ask to be "taken off the hook". I believe I'm accountable to humble myself before His Almighty Hand and "let" Him change me with whatever His truths may be. Fail often, but accountable still.
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free...Romans 8:20,21
J. Preston Eby states "the Holy Spirit has shed precious light upon this wonder, revealing that the Christ is "the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) who verily was "a LAMB without blemish or spot...foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Pet. 1:19-20).
20 The fact that Christ's sacrifice was foreknown even before the disruption throws a
marvelous light upon God's plan and purpose. It shows that sacrifice is not an afterthought
intended to repair an unforeseen disaster, but that it precedes sin, and that sin was introduced
to give it occasion. Speaking as a man, there never would have been sin unless God had
previously prepared a Sacrifice, and neither should be considered by itself, but as one of the
necessary factors in God's great purpose to reveal the deep recesses of His love and the
boundless expanse of His affection. Concordant Commentary of I Peter 1:20
Being joined by God as Spirit to that body on the cross, being "one spirit" with Him, we are members of one another and His death is mine. It is actual union, not substitution, in this regard.
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2009, 09:18:17 AM
20 The fact that Christ's sacrifice was foreknown even before the disruption throws a
marvelous light upon God's plan and purpose. It shows that sacrifice is not an afterthought
intended to repair an unforeseen disaster, but that it precedes sin, and that sin was introduced
to give it occasion. Speaking as a man, there never would have been sin unless God had
previously prepared a Sacrifice, and neither should be considered by itself, but as one of the
necessary factors in God's great purpose to reveal the deep recesses of His love and the
boundless expanse of His affection. Concordant Commentary of I Peter 1:20
The sacrifice precedes sin because it is the innocent (lamb) who are slain.
The slain lamb IS the foundation of the world.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: --Gen 3
..she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. --Gen 3
Isn't that the beginning of the whole story? Without that, you have no story.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
I certainly don't disagree with that Molly, there seems to be "a good foundation" :bigGrin: to make that statement...my main point with the Concordant piece was to try to show an explanation that is based on scripture, mainly regarding when He was slain...that it was Father's intent, not some sort of Plan B because man messed up His original plan, so then God had to scramble at some later point in history to come up with a way to fix it...to somehow figure a way to then make good out of it.
Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Yes, Molly. Jesus foreordained to be our Savior, us foreordained to eventually be reconciled through our Savior...each in his own order...as I understand, at least a huge part of God's plan.
What does this mean?
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..
I mean, how would that work practically speaking..?
Isaaih 45;10 woe to him who says to his father,
'what have you begotten? or to his mother.
'what have you brought to birth?'
v 11...concerning things to come, do you question me about
my children, or gve me orders about the work of my hands?
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens,
I marshalled their starry hosts. I will raise up Cyrus
in my righteousness; I will make all his ways straight
He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,says the Almighty
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:36:00 AM
What does this mean?
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..
I mean, how would that work practically speaking..?
:cloud9: It would work in that we (before "falling" to this realm) were one with Him in Spirit, not AS one, but as two MADE one, ie. like a man and his wife are one. We were lowered into the bondage of corruption (these mortal bodies). He was made (lowered) a little lower than the ANGELS; so were we. Blessings...
Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
Who intended it to be for life??
If it was God's intent, then how did it become a way to death?? If God intended it for life, then why would HE have slain Jesus in his intent first??
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning?
if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death.
For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
the commandment had to be fulfilled through obediance
to bring life.
the utter sinfulness of sin had to be exposed through
rising up and killing us throught the commandment that was
to life
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning?
if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death.
For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
The original command was intended for life.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. --Gen 3
As soon as Adam is put in the garden and given the command, he becomes al Adam [god/Man, or God's man, or Man of the Most High].
He's given power over life and death.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2009, 06:03:46 PM
the commandment had to be fulfilled through obediance
to bring life.
the utter sinfulness of sin had to be exposed through
rising up and killing us throught the commandment that was
to life
Jesus fulfilled the law, bringing life, through obedience without the law exposing sin in him and killing him.
:cloud9: Yes, but some other points to think about. Jesus was only doing what He saw His Head do (slain from the foundation). He laid down his life (no man took it), just as the Lamb was slain willingly from the foundation of the world.
All things were created thru Christ; that is the "death" He willingly endured in the creating of the foundation of the world, in being lowered in form. The thought of God's heart became visible in the creation, and He, in a sense, sanctified that creation with His own blood.
He saw the end from the beginning and saw that blood would be needed as there is no remission from sin without the shedding of blood. With God in His perfect will, He knows what we have need of BEFORE we ask (or have need of it) and it is provided just like the coin in the fish's mouth, before the need arises. Blessings...
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 06:07:40 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning?
if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death.
For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
The original command was intended for life.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
--Gen 3
As soon as Adam is put in the garden and given the command, he becomes al Adam [god/Man, or God's man, or Man of the Most High].
He's given power over life and death.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
So Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit??
QuoteSo Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit
I actually think He left it up to Adam, since he gave Adam the choice, and Adam was not deceived (having the breath of God).
I think Adam is the one who lowered the creation into futility, in hope...
But, God was there, always, to make things right.
Although I don't think you will find this a popular belief...
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 06:25:44 PM
QuoteSo Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit
I actually think He left it up to Adam, since he gave Adam the choice, and Adam was not deceived (having the breath of God).
I think Adam is the one who lowered the creation into futility, in hope...
But, God was there, always, to make things right.
Although I don't think you will find this a popular belief...
thanks,
i've been pondering now for some time, the "Adam wasn't deceived". He was a special guy, imo; and "chose" death over life.
Hence; the need for a fulfillment of the law, which came through ONE, the last Adam.
Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.
Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
"fearfully"
H3372
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
A primitive root; to fear; morally to revere; causatively to frighten: - affright, be (make) afraid, dread (-ful), (put in) fear (-ful, -fully, -ing). (be had in) reverence (-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).
"wonderfully"
H6395
פּלה
pâlâh
paw-law'
A primitive root; to distinguish (literally or figuratively): - put a difference, show marvellous, separate, set apart, sever, make wonderfully.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
--Gen 1
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 07:35:18 PM
Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.
but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan??
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 07:35:18 PM
Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.
but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan??
Through Eve.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 07:35:18 PM
Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.
but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan??
Through Eve.
So couldn't Adam have stood his ground? And chose obedience over Eve?
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 08:07:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 07:35:18 PM
Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.
but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan??
Through Eve.
So couldn't Adam have stood his ground? And chose obedience over Eve?
Yes, I think he could have. But, where would that leave Eve?
You think he should have thrown Eve under the bus?
Where would we be without Jesus?
Romans 5:14
...Adam..., who is the figure of him that was to come.
So disobedience is the cross??
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 08:11:59 PM
So disobedience is the cross??
No. The death/persecution of innocence for [the wellbeing of] another is the cross.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 05, 2009, 08:39:50 PM
:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.
Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.
I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....
A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. Spot on, Card. :thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on April 05, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
QuoteFor the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope
When did this take place Jab? This did not happen before man was disobedience and ate but afterwards.
To use another of Zeeks scriptures.
Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.
Earlier in the same scripture...
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
So God does not
willingly bring affliction or grief, but he
does bring it, then shows compassion...
The cross; "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Thank you, Yesu.
Doc, Sheila and Card, I understand it much the same way.
Hi Scott..you asked me when this happened, before or after...I really don't have a lot more to share on this right now, not sure what else I can do besides try to show what scripture says, whether I like it or whether it is comfortable to me or not. The Word needs to change me. Scripture says what it says, and IMO, all scripture reconciles when taken in context, properly divided, and Spirit revealed...and as I understand, God prepared the Sacrifice from the beginning of our existence here. As Doc noted, He also brings grief and compassion. He turns us to disobedience, has mercy on us...He said, "I the Lord, do these things"...Scripture directly says it.
If I believe a particular thing that is foundational yet not supported in scripture, then I will try to find ways to get other precepts to fit upon that foundation...whether it does or not. I've done it MANY times. Again though, the Word needs to change me...if it's something that doesn't make sense to my carnal mind, I need to humble myself and take it to God in prayer and let HIM have the final say. Again, I'll just say that God takes credit for bringing both difficulty and healing...do I argue with Him, or do I say "OK Lord, I believe, help my unbelief...help me understand". I personally still have many lessons to learn.
QuoteI believe it was God's will, wish, want, desire, intention, plan for Christ to be crucified. Not in any way shape or form for the evil itself (God is completely against that) but for the sake of showing us the Father, showing us what "love your enemies" really entails, how far it goes. None of that could have been on full display apart from Christ's crucifixion actually taking place. I do believe Christ's death was a provision but not in the sense that God had hoped things would turn out differently.
Arrrg just when I thought we were getting close :winkgrin:
That's what I thought you meant by intending Bob, which brings us back to the beginning.
Unless we can come to an agreement on God PLAN/WAY from the beginning we will always disagree with Gods PLAN/WAY.
You see Gods PLAN/WAY was always through death unto life, that God planned for Adam to sin through disobedience so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.
I see Gods PLAN/WAY as obedience from the very start, that Christ sacrifice was NOT a part of the PLAN/WAY, but because of mans disobedience God responded to the clay and sent His son in response to mans disobedience.
So I think we should focus on the beginning because that is where the disagreement manifests itself. And if we can come into agreement then the rest of what took place should fall into place.
So I guess I'll start. I posted this already but for a refresher I'll post it again.
KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.
If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.
We see this very principal brought out in
1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.
And I think the reason God commanded these sacrifices and offerings was so that the people would see what a heinous act it was that they must slay an innocent life for their own sinful ways.
Ezekiel 20:25
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.
Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
Why?
Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.
The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.
Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.
If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?
Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.
Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.
Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in sacrificing His son.
Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?
Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
Jab for your point on
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the stone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
God bless.
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 05:41:31 PM
Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
Who intended it to be for life??
If it was God's intent, then how did it become a way to death?? If God intended it for life, then why would HE have slain Jesus in his intent first??
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
exactly Zeek :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2009, 09:08:07 PM
The cross; "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Thank you, Yesu.
Doc, Sheila and Card, I understand it much the same way.
Hi Scott..you asked me when this happened, before or after...I really don't have a lot more to share on this right now, not sure what else I can do besides try to show what scripture says, whether I like it or whether it is comfortable to me or not. The Word needs to change me. Scripture says what it says, and IMO, all scripture reconciles when taken in context, properly divided, and Spirit revealed...and as I understand, God prepared the Sacrifice from the beginning of our existence here. As Doc noted, He also brings grief and compassion. He turns us to disobedience, has mercy on us...He said, "I the Lord, do these things"...Scripture directly says it.
If I believe a particular thing that is foundational yet not supported in scripture, then I will try to find ways to get other precepts to fit upon that foundation...whether it does or not. I've done it MANY times. Again though, the Word needs to change me...if it's something that doesn't make sense to my carnal mind, I need to humble myself and take it to God in prayer and let HIM have the final say. Again, I'll just say that God takes credit for bringing both difficulty and healing...do I argue with Him, or do I say "OK Lord, I believe, help my unbelief...help me understand". I personally still have many lessons to learn.
Jab the scriptures do reconcile with one another from my point of view.
No one would put forth something if they did not see the scriptures recouncilling will one another.
Even those who beleive in ET think the scripture reconcil with ET.
You may not be able to reconcile the scripture from my point of view bro, but thats why we discuss these things.
I put forth what I see, if of God, He will water it and it will bring forth fruit.
Now here the thing bro, some here are seeing what I see and some meet me half way in what I see, so even if I don't understand it all there is something to what I am seeing else some would not see it and other would not meet what I see half way.
I don't know what way the wind will blow brother, but I trust God to work out all the wrinkles.
Pneuma and Zeek
you can take that all the way back to the garden..
and the commands God gave to A&E..a command unto life
that they should not partake of death[tokogae]
they was innocent lambs too, til a false-prophet arrived
and eve was deceived..and led to partake of that which brought
death.
Mercy triumphs over judgement[tokogae] or that promised
seed wouldn't have been prophesied about by GOD.
the serpents seed 'bruises' the heel [earth,God's foot-stool/flesh]
'the womans seed would crush the serpents head beneath his heel
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2009, 10:55:04 PM
Pneuma and Zeek
you can take that all the way back to the garden..
and the commands God gave to A&E..a command unto life
that they should not partake of death[tokogae]
they was innocent lambs too, til a false-prophet arrived
and eve was deceived..and led to partake of that which brought
death.
Mercy triumphs over judgement[tokogae] or that promised
seed wouldn't have been prophesied about by GOD.
the serpents seed 'bruises' the heel [earth,God's foot-stool/flesh]
'the womans seed would crush the serpents head beneath his heel
God didn't warn eve about the snake, so I wouldn't called that 'decieved" Adam and Eve didn't know better
ID
the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.
he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it
or, you could say he was a lying spirit
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2009, 11:03:25 PM
ID
the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.
he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it
or, you could say he was a lying spirit
Would it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2009, 11:03:25 PM
ID
the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.
he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it
or, you could say he was a lying spirit
:cloud9: Or you could say that his tongue was cleft (split so couldn't hit the mark) and he didn't chew the cud (Word) and just hissed (hiss means to whisper as opposed to God coming with a shout, ie. RAISED voice) it out. :winkgrin: Blessings....
:grin pretty good!
I have this scripture in mind and can't lay my hand on it.
It is about something that transpires in heaven..and someone comes from the left and say, I will become a lying spirit..and so he will fall.
any of you know where that is?
thanks,Sheila
Is this what you were thinking of? (1Kings 22:19-23)
CHB
Whatever any of our differences of doctrine/understanding in this area may be, I think we all pretty much agree that even though many of God's ways are past finding out;
He IS love;
He will ultimately bring about what's absolutely best for us (our trials here won't compare to the glory);
and He is Lord of heaven and earth!
Good News!
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning? if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death. For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all. It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards". The commandment if obeyed would lead to life. There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.
I believe that all these verses below applied as much to Adam as they did to Paul. All die in Adam. It is not just a problem of having sinned it is a problem of BEING a sinner.
Romans 7:11-20- 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
- 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
- 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
- 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
- 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
- 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
- 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
- 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
- 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
Quote from: IDWould it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?
The two trees were in the holy of holies, in the midst of the garden, which is where Adam and Eve stood while Eve [unsuccessfully] debated the serpent.
...the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. --Gen 2
Quote from: pneuma on April 06, 2009, 10:24:10 PMArrrg just when I thought we were getting close :winkgrin:
Sorry... I was working from starting point of agreement as a practical matter though I believe that God intended Christ to die from the very beginning. I worked from AFTER man sinned to prove that evil occuring (Christ's death) can be part of God's plan and God does more than just weave evil into good.
QuoteYou see Gods PLAN/WAY was always through death unto life, that God planned for Adam to sin through disobedience so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.
Yes.
QuoteFirst thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Which Paul calls the "ministration of death, written and egraven on stone" and which Paul says WAS TO BE done away with.
QuoteGod has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.
Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.
The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.
You are mixing together the letter and the spirit as if the shadow and the reality are one and the same. Chirst's sacrifice was the perfect example of obedience, love, and mercy. That is exactly the sacrifice God desires, desired, and will desire. The sacrifices that God did not desire were the outward sacrifices, the shadows of what Christ did. You have lumped both the shadow and the very image under one label "sacrifice"
Sacrifices, offerings, tithes, circumcision, etc. are all shadows of righteousness typifying real inward righteousness. God does not desire any of the shadows but God does desire the very image.
For example:
God does not desire physical circumcision. God desires & requires circumcision of the heart.
God does not desire us to obserive a physical days like the weekly Sabbath. God desires and requires us to cease our own works of the flesh and enter into His rest.
God does not desire us to kill the best of animal we have. God desires and requires that we give up what we love the most to follow Him.
God does not desire us to phsycially sacrifice. God desires and requires that we present our bodies a living sacrifice.
Jesus Christ came to show us the Father by living out the righthand side of the above list.
Greater LOVE hath no man than this, to LAY HIS LIFE DOWN for his brothers. There is no greater love than Christ's sacrifice. But God did not desire it?
Jesus Christ was OBEDIENT unto death. Christ's sacrifice was perfect obedience. But God did not desire it?
What you are essentially saying is that God did not want sacrifice originally, but after man sinned, God made a second-best provision to save man and then God starting wanting sacrifice.
Not true at all. God still did not want sacrifice even when Jesus was walking on the earth. Jesus while on earth even quotes the verse that says God does not want sacrifice.
- Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Christ was reproving the pharisees because they specialized in fulfilling the shadows & outward sacrifices will ommiting the sacrifice God truly desired.
Again, Hosea 6:6 was still true when Christ walked on the earth. If you use that verse to prove that God did not want to sacrifice His Son then God did not want to sacrifice His Son when Christ walked on earth.
God did not desire the sacrifice & offerings of the pharisees but God did desire Christ's sacrifice and offering. Those two sacrifices & offerings are miles apart.
:cloud9: Hey, Molly.......the midst of the garden is the inner court (midst of the tabernacle pattern) where the table of shewbread and the candlestick were......
It has been said that the devil, unable to overcome Adam, struck at Eve, the weaker vessel, in order to take down Adam. But really, is it not true that, "The lesser is overcome by the greater?" Much has been made of Adam as head of Eve, ruling her as a head over a body. But, Adam is head of Eve, as source, like the head-waters of the Nile is where the river originates. Look at the Eden story again.
Day after day God made increasingly complicated life forms. From inanimate things to plants, from fish to the higher animals, and finally He made man, the crown of His creation. But wait, He actually went a step farther. He made woman. Adam was made from the dust of the earth; but, Eve was made from an already refined substance. We are not told that the woman was called by a personal name until after the entrance of sin and death which overturned how God originally made things.
The creatures were brought before Adam to name. This means he spoke a revelation of the nature, a sum of identity and a delineation of destiny of each beast. To give such expression from within himself created within him the awareness for something to correspond with him. "Yet for the human He does not find a helper as his compliment." (Gn 2:20, CLV) God was defining a cultivated hunger, creating a specific emptiness that He would fill; like in God, where there had been only God, the little lamb was slain away from in order to make a place for something that was not God, a cosmos and its "casting down" (which was either its "lowering" out of the knowledge of God into manifestation, or, after initially being, here its "disruption" by the entrance of sin and death.) This creation was as a womb by which God would create a vast family of beings like himself with whom to have intimate fellowship. He put into a deep sleep the ultimate manifestation of Himself within it to bring forth from its side a bowed chamber that "is bone of my bone and flesh of His flesh."
Into that emptiness, that need we bring to Him to fill which we are unable to satisfy, He places something of Himself. The seed that begins with the wonder of the love of God appearing within will ultimately become the victory that swallows down death, the measure of the stature of the fullness of His exact image and likeness in immortal reproduction.
It was out of love that Adam joined Eve, "...and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating." (Gn 3:6) Out of love Christ joins the Church in death.
The door of perpetual entrance:
Matthew 5:3,10 . . .
"Happy (blessed,) in spirit ("even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead" Ja 2:26), are the poor (beggars who have nothing of their own, like an empty womb) for theirs (belong to them as their right and from them them as its source) is the kingdom of the heavens (which rules over all.)
your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 02:21:23 AM
of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all. It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards". The commandment if obeyed would lead to life. There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [
intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the
intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 02:21:23 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...
yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning? if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death. For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good.
Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all. It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards". The commandment if obeyed would lead to life. There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.
I believe that all these verses below applied as much to Adam as they did to Paul. All die in Adam. It is not just a problem of having sinned it is a problem of BEING a sinner.
Romans 7:11-20
- 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
- 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
- 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
- 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
- 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
- 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
- 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
- 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
- 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
But there is something still too the Adam was not deceived, and Eve was. Was Paul deceived?? or was he like Adam??
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment,
deceived me, and by it slew me.
Quote from: reFORMer on April 07, 2009, 04:01:58 AM
It has been said that the devil, unable to overcome Adam, struck at Eve, the weaker vessel, in order to take down Adam. But really, is it not true that, "The lesser is overcome by the greater?" Much has been made of Adam as head of Eve, ruling her as a head over a body. But, Adam is head of Eve, as source, like the head-waters of the Nile is where the river originates. Look at the Eden story again.
Day after day God made increasingly complicated life forms. From inanimate things to plants, from fish to the higher animals, and finally He made man, the crown of His creation. But wait, He actually went a step farther. He made woman. Adam was made from the dust of the earth; but, Eve was made from an already refined substance. We are not told that the woman was called by a personal name until after the entrance of sin and death which overturned how God originally made things.
The creatures were brought before Adam to name. This means he spoke a revelation of the nature, a sum of identity and a delineation of destiny of each beast. To give such expression from within himself created within him the awareness for something to correspond with him. "Yet for the human He does not find a helper as his compliment." (Gn 2:20, CLV) God was defining a cultivated hunger, creating a specific emptiness that He would fill; like in God, where there had been only God, the little lamb was slain away from in order to make a place for something that was not God, a cosmos and its "casting down" (which was either its "lowering" out of the knowledge of God into manifestation, or, after initially being, here its "disruption" by the entrance of sin and death.) This creation was as a womb by which God would create a vast family of beings like himself with whom to have intimate fellowship. He put into a deep sleep the ultimate manifestation of Himself within it to bring forth from its side a bowed chamber that "is bone of my bone and flesh of His flesh."
Into that emptiness, that need we bring to Him to fill which we are unable to satisfy, He places something of Himself. The seed that begins with the wonder of the love of God appearing within will ultimately become the victory that swallows down death, the measure of the stature of the fullness of His exact image and likeness in immortal reproduction.
It was out of love that Adam joined Eve, "...and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating." (Gn 3:6) Out of love Christ joins the Church in death.
The door of perpetual entrance:
Matthew 5:3,10 . . .
"Happy (blessed,) in spirit ("even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead" Ja 2:26), are the poor (beggars who have nothing of their own, like an empty womb) for theirs (belong to them as their right and from them them as its source) is the kingdom of the heavens (which rules over all.) your brother, James Rohde
:cloud9: Good post. :thumbsup: He showed me the same thing about the naming of the animals by Adam. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:14:04 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 06, 2009, 08:11:59 PM
So disobedience is the cross??
No. The death/persecution of innocence for [the wellbeing of] another is the cross.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
but if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,
in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command.
Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 04:50:43 AM
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
In that case same same verse says that the commandment was discovered to be intended for death.
- Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:23:34 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 04:50:43 AM
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
In that case same same verse says that the commandment was discovered to be intended for death.
- Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
yes, by Paul.
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:01:18 AMbut if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,
in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command.
If Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law. I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.
- Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
<br>
- Leviticus 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
<br>
- John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:30:27 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:01:18 AMbut if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,
in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command.
If Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law. I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.
- Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
<br>- Leviticus 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
<br>- John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
interesting point.
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:28:39 AMyes, by Paul.
I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.
I might get hammered for the translation, but thought these verses were interesting. Still thinking on the "not deceived" and "willful sin" vs. "sin out of deception".
12 How can I know all the sins lurking in my heart?
Cleanse me from these hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant from deliberate sins!
Don't let them control me.
Then I will be free of guilt
and innocent of great sin.
14 May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:33:03 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:28:39 AMyes, by Paul.
I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.
but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was. So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived?? then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:35:31 AMbut he wasnt' deceived, Paul was. So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived?? then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?
No, I think you're right -- Adam was not deceived when he ate the fruit. But does one have to be decieved to find out that the commandment is "unto" death? One just has to sin, deceived or not.
Anyway, I just started thinking about this Adam did it for the love of Eve thing and "fulfilled the law" while breaking the letter. I've heard that before but just started pondering it. If Adam truly fulfilled the law as a type of Christ, completely out of love, then he didn't sin. Why would God punish Adam for doing what is righteous. So now I'm having problems with that view. I'm thinking it was a merely shadow of what Christ did. Or maybe that's not how Adam typified Christ. Dunno.
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:33:03 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:28:39 AMyes, by Paul.
I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.
but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was. So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived?? then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?
Adam wasn't deceived. He knew what he was doing and what would happen.
But,
.. love covers over a multitude of sins.And, he and Eve lived to see another day (albeit outside of the garden).
QuoteRomans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh...
It seems pretty clear to me from Genesis that Eve was weak through the flesh. She sinned before she ever ate the fruit. The view that Adam & Eve were capable of keeping God's commandments imples they did not share our "weakness through the flesh". That in turn means we are not like Adam & Eve were originally and seems to collide with 1 Corintians 15.
Quote from: Molly on April 07, 2009, 05:48:16 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:33:03 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:28:39 AMyes, by Paul.
I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.
but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was. So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived?? then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?
Adam wasn't deceived. He knew what he was doing and what would happen.
But, .. love covers over a multitude of sins.
And, he and Eve lived to see another day (albeit outside of the garden).
hmmm, wow. more to ponder
Quote from: bobf on April 07, 2009, 05:48:07 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 05:35:31 AMbut he wasnt' deceived, Paul was. So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived?? then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?
No, I think you're right -- Adam was not deceived when he ate the fruit. But does one have to be decieved to find out that the commandment is "unto" death? One just has to sin, deceived or not.
Anyway, I just started thinking about this Adam did it for the love of Eve thing and "fulfilled the law" while breaking the letter. I've heard that before but just started pondering it. If Adam truly fulfilled the law as a type of Christ, completely out of love, then he didn't sin. Why would God punish Adam for doing what is righteous. So now I'm having problems with that view. I'm thinking it was a merely shadow of what Christ did. Or maybe that's not how Adam typified Christ. Dunno.
yeah, me too. that's the first thing that came to my mind, "why the punishment"
and who is Ezek 28 talking about.
I see it as talking about Adam.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 07, 2009, 03:09:43 AM
:cloud9: Hey, Molly.......the midst of the garden is the inner court (midst of the tabernacle pattern) where the table of shewbread and the candlestick were......
Hi Cardinal, I'll have to disagree with you there. The garden might be the inner court, but the two trees are in the midst of the garden.
19 And he made the oracle in the midst of the house, in the inner part, to set there the ark of the covenant of the Lord--1 Kings 6 [Douay-Rheims, building of Solomon's temple]
27And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.--1 Kings 6 [KJV]
The ark is found in the midst of the temple. The tabernacle and the Levite priests are in the midst of the camp--
Numbers 2:17
Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.Circle within circle, God is always in the midst, the innermost part.
"in the midst" [of the garden]
H8432
תּוך
tâvek
taw'-vek
From an unused root meaning to sever; a bisection, that is, (by implication)
the centre: - among (-st), X between, half, X (there-, where-) in (-to), middle, mid [-night], midst (among), X out (of), X through, X with (-in).
Plus, I consider Adam the first high priest, therefore it would be suitable for him to enter into the holy of holies. :icon_queen:
Quote from: Zeek on April 07, 2009, 06:05:27 AM
and who is Ezek 28 talking about. I see it as talking about Adam.
I have no problem thinking it was Adam, I just do not think it was Adam only.
:cloud9: What I am saying is, the two trees are in the midst, but the midst in the tabernacle pattern is in the inner court, because the two trees (two things to partake of) are the table of shewbread (TOKOGAE) and the light of the candlestick (TOL). I agree that Adam was the first HP, but he forfeited his position and thereby his right to enter in to closer relationship "beyond the veil". If he could have done it, then there would have been no need for a second one to come and do sacrifice. Blessings....
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 11:06:26 PM
Would it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?
Yes that is a little strange - unless you realize God intended it all to happen... There was never a PLAN B. PLAN A is perfect!
the life was in the blood, Adams life was taken from him when
he ate of the tokogae..so he could not redeem Eve.
that is why Jesus Christ had to come and lay his down willingly
so that the power of an eternal life could be imparted and
redeem
death can not redeem death, but the power of an
indestructable life Now that BLOOD CAN AND DOES REDEEM
It's weird that in adam we die, in Jesus we rise, but what about eve?
it like man more important than woman?
ID
I don't think so. They are one flesh.Adam mean's MAN
Adam was formed first[eve still dwelling inside him]
It was when they were seperated that they became
vulnerable..eve no longer was surrounded byAdam.
when we don't remain IN CHRIST[the last Adam] we are
vulnerable also.
He declares something new....
a mere woman shall encompass/surround a man.
ribs/bride surround the heart of man,bone with much marrow
that produces the blood of eternal life
when you are one flesh,he dwells in you and you dwell
in Him.
How does a mere woman surround a man? when she gives
birth to the manchild, she has surrounded the promised seed in
her womb
1 Cor 11;12 For as woman came from man,so also man is born
of woman....the woman shall be kept safe through childbearing
[born in Christ] as long as she remains a worker at home.
[remains in Christ as His rib]
I noticed that in the old testament, man treat woman unfairly, like the baby boy only unclean a few time while a baby girl is unclean longer, and I remember something like "I am glad I am a man, not a woman" somewhere in the old testament, when I see that, that's wasn't very nice!
:cloud9: Amen Sheila. And since all flesh is female to God, then all have that "woman" that encompasses a "man", ie. Christ is that man in Spirit. Blessings....
Quote from: sheila on April 07, 2009, 06:15:41 PM
the life was in the blood, Adams life was taken from him when
he ate of the tokogae..so he could not redeem Eve.
that is why Jesus Christ had to come and lay his down willingly
so that the power of an eternal life could be imparted and
redeem
death can not redeem death, but the power of an
indestructable life Now that BLOOD CAN AND DOES REDEEM
In that sense, Adam is like the firstborn lamb without imperfection that they are sacrificing as soon as they leave the garden (the story of Cain and Abel). I do think he does provide a covering for Eve, as that sacrifice does for the sons of Adam.
ID
when the baby boys had to get circumcized I was glad I
wasn't a boy!!! lol! :mblush:
and when I as a nurse watched it,I was really glad!! :mshock:
I felt so sorry for them..
Amen cardinal,
there is neither male nor female in christ..for they are ONE IN
HIM a new creature Rev 14;4 they are not defiled with women
[sanctified male] ;for they are virgins[sanctified female]
in Christ.
It's interesting you should say the flesh is considered female by God, Cardinal.
There is a masculine form of the Hebrew word, salvation, but our Y'shuah is in the feminine form.
Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
"thy salvation"
H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.
Hi Molly,
well the head of the woman is the man[that is a covering]
and the head of the man is Christ....they were both without
covering and naked in a sense. The anointing[head covering]
was in the tol which was promised to them[allowed to eat]
Sheep without a shepherd,
skinned and thrown about,are men without Christ
[anointed one]
Father brought skins and covered them both, I wonder if
those skins were of the slain innocent Lambs that they were?
slaughtered
:cloud9: I know Molly, good post. That's because Christ Jesus was/is the heart of the Father and came out of the Father's side (and that's why He returned to His side) just as Eve was taken out of the side of Adam and was his "stony heart". But this heart is a heart of (celestial) flesh; not stony/hardhearted.
And David was a man after God's own heart; I believe he saw it, but knew he was a man out of season.
The reason all flesh to Him is female is because the Spirit plants the seed, therefore even males (after the flesh) are part of the "bride". The natural bears this witness, as all babies are female in the womb first, and change later in development in the womb, if they are to be males. Blessings....
QuoteWhich Paul calls the "ministration of death, written and egraven on stone" and which Paul says WAS TO BE done away with.
Yes, but the only way the law is to be done away with is through fulfillment, which = obedience
QuoteYou are mixing together the letter and the spirit as if the shadow and the reality are one and the same. Chirst's sacrifice was the perfect example of obedience, love, and mercy. That is exactly the sacrifice God desires, desired, and will desire. The sacrifices that God did not desire were the outward sacrifices, the shadows of what Christ did. You have lumped both the shadow and the very image under one label "sacrifice"
Sacrifices, offerings, tithes, circumcision, etc. are all shadows of righteousness typifying real inward righteousness. God does not desire any of the shadows but God does desire the very image.
For example:
God does not desire physical circumcision. God desires & requires circumcision of the heart.
God does not desire us to obserive a physical days like the weekly Sabbath. God desires and requires us to cease our own works of the flesh and enter into His rest.
God does not desire us to kill the best of animal we have. God desires and requires that we give up what we love the most to follow Him.
God does not desire us to phsycially sacrifice. God desires and requires that we present our bodies a living sacrifice.
Jesus Christ came to show us the Father by living out the righthand side of the above list.
Greater LOVE hath no man than this, to LAY HIS LIFE DOWN for his brothers. There is no greater love than Christ's sacrifice. But God did not desire it?
Jesus Christ was OBEDIENT unto death. Christ's sacrifice was perfect obedience. But God did not desire it?
Nope not mixing them together bro, pointing out two things.
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
Second, that God did/does NOT desire sacrifice but sacrifice became necessary because man refused to obey.
Now as God does not change and God did not desire the sacrifice of innocent animals how much more would God then not want to sacrifice His own son.
There is a difference between God accepting the sacrifice and God desiring sacrifice.
God was well pleased with the sacrifice of His son, just as He was pleased with the sacrifice of the animal for they made a way for man to come before Him. One forever the other year by year.
God was pleased with this outcome, He is NOT pleased with the need or desired the need, which brought that outcome into effect, He did not desire the death of His son, nor did He desire the death of animals in times past. God cares for that sparrow that falls to the ground, and we are much more precious than many sparrows.
Why do you think Jesus said to the people that the Father sent his servants unto the people but they kept beating and killing them so He then sends forth His son saying I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
If God wanted to sacrifice His son from the get go why did He bother to first send out His servant? God sent these servant because He wanted the people repent and obey His voice, if they had of been obedient He never would have had to send forth His son for obedience is BETTER then sacrifice.
QuoteWhat you are essentially saying is that God did not want sacrifice originally,
That not essentially what I am saying Bob that's exactly what I am saying.
Quotebut after man sinned, God made a second-best provision to save man and then God starting wanting sacrifice.
There is no second best provision Bob, God wanted obedience plain and simple, but man refused to obey His voice and because man refused to obey His voice we see the potter responding to the clay.
That response being the provision of sacrifice. Sacrifice was not in God's plan, but in response to the clay sacrifice became needful.
QuoteNot true at all. God still did not want sacrifice even when Jesus was walking on the earth. Jesus while on earth even quotes the verse that says God does not want sacrifice.
• Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Christ was reproving the pharisees because they specialized in fulfilling the shadows & outward sacrifices will ommiting the sacrifice God truly desired.
Again, Hosea 6:6 was still true when Christ walked on the earth. If you use that verse to prove that God did not want to sacrifice His Son then God did not want to sacrifice His Son when Christ walked on earth.
Is that not what I have been saying all along Bob? Have I not been saying all along that God did NOT want to sacrifice His son? Yes, yes and again yes that is what I have been saying.
QuoteGod did not desire the sacrifice & offerings of the pharisees but God did desire Christ's sacrifice and offering. Those two sacrifices & offerings are miles apart.
God does not change brother so if He did not desire the shedding of the blood of innocent animals, how much more then the shedding of the blood of His innocent son?
Proverbs 6:16-17
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
The Lord hates the shedding of innocent blood,it is an abomination unto him, yet you believe He desires that which He hates, not only that bro you believe that God planned the shedding of innocent blood from the very beginning.
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2009, 10:55:04 PM
Pneuma and Zeek
you can take that all the way back to the garden..
and the commands God gave to A&E..a command unto life
that they should not partake of death[tokogae]
they was innocent lambs too, til a false-prophet arrived
and eve was deceived..and led to partake of that which brought
death.
Mercy triumphs over judgement[tokogae] or that promised
seed wouldn't have been prophesied about by GOD.
the serpents seed 'bruises' the heel [earth,God's foot-stool/flesh]
'the womans seed would crush the serpents head beneath his heel
Hi sis that is what I have been doing all along, taking it back to the garden because what took place before the disobedience of man is different then what we have now.
QuoteThe alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
Bob it is NOT the flesh that corrupts the man, its the sin in the flesh that corrupts. Sin knocked at the door, Adam opened himself to sin and became a sinner.
QuoteIf Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law. I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.
Where in any scripture do you guys see that Adam laid down his life for Eve?
Eve was deceived she did not commit a sin that was unto death, all Adam had to do was pray for her.
Adam was not deceived thus he committed a sin unto death.
So it was NOT Adam that followed Eve into death, it was Eve that followed Adam into death that she might through child baring save him.
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
The Lord hates the shedding of innocent blood,it is an abomination unto him, yet you believe He desires that which He hates, not only that bro you believe that God planned the shedding of innocent blood from the very beginning.
It's just so interesting how God set up a world where He has to hate so much.
cp
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:10:27 PM
QuoteThe alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
Bob it is NOT the flesh that corrupts the man, its the sin in the flesh that corrupts. Sin knocked at the door, Adam opened himself to sin and became a sinner.
Not to excuse Adam and Eve but I see the makings of a 'sinner' in people (A&E) right from the get go........
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.gen 3.6and
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.jn2.16All this lusting and pride is said not to be of the Father but it seems it is the natural consequences of the way we are made from the beginning. Satan is a murderer from the beginning and he sure seemed part of the make up of man right from the start. Right there in the garden, subtle and quiet, but there none the less.
Satan was there BEFORE any outright disobedience just as was the lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
We just have to deal with it.
cp
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:11:34 PM
QuoteIf Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law. I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.
Where in any scripture do you guys see that Adam laid down his life for Eve?
Eve was deceived she did not commit a sin that was unto death, all Adam had to do was pray for her.
Adam was not deceived thus he committed a sin unto death.
So it was NOT Adam that followed Eve into death, it was Eve that followed Adam into death that she might through child baring save him.
I think we see this facet of the Diamond in relation to Jesus dying for creation. Adam seems to be a type of Jesus and as Jesus willingly walked into death to save creation I kind of see Adam willingly doing the same for 'Eve'.
Some of us tend to see Adam as representing spirit while Eve represents soul. I am not totally clear on this but it seems when a person is dominated by soul, sin erupts and when the spirit dominates then there is no sin. The story of A & E when she ate of the tree is the story of a soul led person as we all get the 'privelage' of being it seems!
cp
The story of Jesus Christ is the story of a spirit led person!
cp
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
--Gen 1
I've often thought, what was God creating there? Let there be light happens before the sun is created. Yet God separates it from the darkness.
Could it be an enlightened consciousness? We see Adam, too, set apart in a garden made just for him.
The light is set apart from darkness, and when a helper is needed for Adam, she must come out of his own body. Nothing from outside the garden (not set apart) will do.
So, Eve had her own brand of enlightenment--but at a lower (soul) level than Adam (spirit).
But, the first thing God creates on the dark and formless earth is "light."
He makes the creation conscious of itself.
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 04:30:02 PM
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
--Gen 1
I've often thought, what was God creating there? Let there be light happens before the sun is created. Yet God separates it from the darkness.
Could it be an enlightened consciousness? We see Adam, too, set apart in a garden made just for him.
The light is set apart from darkness, and when a helper is needed for Adam, she must come out of his own body. Nothing from outside the garden (not set apart) will do.
So, Eve had her own brand of enlightenment--but at a lower (soul) level than Adam (spirit).
But, the first thing God creates on the dark and formless earth is "light."
He makes the creation conscious of itself.
I hear ya Molly. I'll stick to my guns and say people start out with the lust of the flesh and so forth ingrained in them................darkness and void. And then God sends forth His Son into our worlds.........let there be light.
And, eventually, it was very good.
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 08, 2009, 03:28:32 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:10:27 PM
QuoteThe alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
Bob it is NOT the flesh that corrupts the man, its the sin in the flesh that corrupts. Sin knocked at the door, Adam opened himself to sin and became a sinner.
Not to excuse Adam and Eve but I see the makings of a 'sinner' in people (A&E) right from the get go........
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.gen 3.6
and
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.jn2.16
All this lusting and pride is said not to be of the Father but it seems it is the natural consequences of the way we are made from the beginning. Satan is a murderer from the beginning and he sure seemed part of the make up of man right from the start. Right there in the garden, subtle and quiet, but there none the less.
Satan was there BEFORE any outright disobedience just as was the lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
We just have to deal with it.
cp
Claypot,
Your post made perfect sense to me. :thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
:cloud9: Question pneuma....how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, ie. no commandment yet,no disobedience yet? Not trying to be critical, this is just my "brake". Blessings...
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PMYes, but the only way the law is to be done away with is through fulfillment, which = obedience.
No argument there.
QuoteNope not mixing them together bro, pointing out two things. First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
When you draw conclusions about God's desire for the sacrifice of Christ from God's desire for the sacrifice of bulls and goats you are mixing the shadow and the very image.
QuoteNow as God does not change and God did not desire the sacrifice of innocent animals how much more would God then not want to sacrifice His own son.
See you just compared God's desire for the shadow with God's desire for the very image. You just concluded that if God did not take pleasure in the shadow then God takes even less pleasure in the very image.
Here it is right here Scott in the passage below. God did not take pleasure the sacrifice of bulls and goats, BUT IN CONTRAST God did want the sacrifice of His Son: God prepared Christ a body to be an offering to God by laying down His life. Christ came "Lo to do THY WILL" by sacrificing Himself.
- Hebrews 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, BUT a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
QuoteWhy do you think Jesus said to the people that the Father sent his servants unto the people but they kept beating and killing them so He then sends forth His son saying I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
As if God didn't know whether they would or would not reverence Christ.
Matthew 21:37 actually says "They WILL reverence Him" as opposed to "it may well be..."
The parable is showing God as a man without foreknowlege.
QuoteIf God wanted to sacrifice His son from the get go why did He bother to first send out His servant? God sent these servant because He wanted the people repent and obey His voice, if they had of been obedient He never would have had to send forth His son for obedience is BETTER then sacrifice.
The same way He gave Israel commandments He knew they would not obey when He was giving them. God gave commandments so "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
QuoteThat not essentially what I am saying Bob that's exactly what I am saying.
Thought so.
QuoteThat response being the provision of sacrifice. Sacrifice was not in God's plan, but in response to the clay sacrifice became needful.
That's what "second best provision" means to me. If it was not God's original ideal plan, then it was not His 'best' plan. And it was a provision. So to me that's a provision which is second best.
QuoteIs that not what I have been saying all along Bob? Have I not been saying all along that God did NOT want to sacrifice His son? Yes, yes and again yes that is what I have been saying.
At the time Jesus quoted Hosea 6:6 God DID want to sacrifice His Son so how can Hosea 6:6 prove God did not.
QuoteGod does not change brother so if He did not desire the shedding of the blood of innocent animals, how much more then the shedding of the blood of His innocent son?
Yes, God does not change. God is never pleased with the shedding of innocent blood. Not before man sinned or after.
You can look at the death of Christ from two perspectives:
1. Christ laying down his life for the sins of the world
2. Christ being murdered, innocent blood being shed
God was well pleased with the sacrifice of His Son but was never pleased with his murder.
Christ's sacrifice was a "sweet smelling savour" to God. And God does not change. So how are you saying God did not desire it but later God did desire it?
- Epesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
QuoteProverbs 6:16-17
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Yes, God hated them murdering His Son. Yet God sent His Son into the world for the purpose of be murdered. Desire vs Intention.
QuoteThe Lord hates the shedding of innocent blood,it is an abomination unto him, yet you believe He desires that which He hates, not only that bro you believe that God planned the shedding of innocent blood from the very beginning.
Yes, God planned the shedding of innocent blood. Jesus said "not my will but thine be done". But God did not desire what He hates. Desire vs Intention.
Have you ever intended to put yourself through something you hated for some greater good? Then you intended to go through what you hated without desiring what you hated.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 08, 2009, 05:34:48 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
:cloud9: Question pneuma....how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, ie. no commandment yet,no disobedience yet? Not trying to be critical, this is just my "brake". Blessings...
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
"from"G575
ἀπό
apoapo'
A primary particle; "off", that is,
away (from something near),
in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix)
it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 08, 2009, 05:34:48 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
:cloud9: Question pneuma....how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, ie. no commandment yet,no disobedience yet? Not trying to be critical, this is just my "brake". Blessings...
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
"from"
G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
Even better.
cp
:cloud9: You know Molly, what you posted here and the word "sacrifice' actually are connected. The Hebrew thought behind sacrifice is more closely, "the means to bring something (us) near (to God)". Christ IS the means to bring us near. Blessings....
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:10:27 PMBob it is NOT the flesh that corrupts the man, its the sin in the flesh that corrupts. Sin knocked at the door, Adam opened himself to sin and became a sinner.
The flesh is a problem.
- Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
<br>
- Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
I think Adam & Eve shared in having that problem. Eve was deceived because she started thinking about how this fruit would benefit her flesh - pleasant to the eyes, desired to make one wise, good for food.
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 08, 2009, 05:34:48 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
:cloud9: Question pneuma....how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, ie. no commandment yet,no disobedience yet? Not trying to be critical, this is just my "brake". Blessings...
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
"from"
G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain 4969 from the foundation 2602 of the world 2889. (Revelation 13:8)
4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb;
to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally)
to slaughter, or (specially),
to maim (violently):
--kill, slay, wound.2602. katabole kat-ab-ol-ay' from 2598;
a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:
--conceive, foundation.
2598. kataballo kat-ab-al'-lo from 2596 and 906;
to throw down:
--cast down, lay.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations [according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined]:--about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and
frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.906. ballo bal'-lo a primary verb; to throw (in various applications,
more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send,
strike, throw (down), thrust.
2889. kosmos kos'-mos probably from the base of 2865;
orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication,
the world (in a wide or narrow sense,
including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)):
--adorning, world.
2865. komizo kom-id'-zo from a primary komeo (to tend, i.e. take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain):
--bring, receive.
Quote from: claypot on April 08, 2009, 03:28:32 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:10:27 PM
QuoteThe alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good. And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". No, no sin dwelled in Adam. He sinned in a different way than we all sin.
Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?
Bob it is NOT the flesh that corrupts the man, its the sin in the flesh that corrupts. Sin knocked at the door, Adam opened himself to sin and became a sinner.
Not to excuse Adam and Eve but I see the makings of a 'sinner' in people (A&E) right from the get go........
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.gen 3.6
and
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.jn2.16
All this lusting and pride is said not to be of the Father but it seems it is the natural consequences of the way we are made from the beginning. Satan is a murderer from the beginning and he sure seemed part of the make up of man right from the start. Right there in the garden, subtle and quiet, but there none the less.
Satan was there BEFORE any outright disobedience just as was the lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
We just have to deal with it.
cp
Clay there is nothing wrong with our flesh bodies, lust, jealousy etc. are given to us of God.
If lust and jealousy are sin then God who is a jealous God is a sinner, and the Holy Spirit lusteth against the flesh.
Lust must first conceive to bring forth sin;therefore, it is who one has carnal knowledge with that makes it sinful or not.
Adam left his first love and clave unto another and brought forth sin.
Quote from: claypot on April 08, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:11:34 PM
QuoteIf Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law. I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.
Where in any scripture do you guys see that Adam laid down his life for Eve?
Eve was deceived she did not commit a sin that was unto death, all Adam had to do was pray for her.
Adam was not deceived thus he committed a sin unto death.
So it was NOT Adam that followed Eve into death, it was Eve that followed Adam into death that she might through child baring save him.
I think we see this facet of the Diamond in relation to Jesus dying for creation. Adam seems to be a type of Jesus and as Jesus willingly walked into death to save creation I kind of see Adam willingly doing the same for 'Eve'.
Some of us tend to see Adam as representing spirit while Eve represents soul. I am not totally clear on this but it seems when a person is dominated by soul, sin erupts and when the spirit dominates then there is no sin. The story of A & E when she ate of the tree is the story of a soul led person as we all get the 'privelage' of being it seems!
cp
Adam was disobedient, Christ was obedient so how can Adam represent Christ dying for creation?
Quote from: Cardinal on April 08, 2009, 05:34:48 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 08, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
First, that the commandment came first and God wanted obedience and sacrifice ONLY became necessary AFTER disobedience.
:cloud9: Question pneuma....how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, ie. no commandment yet,no disobedience yet? Not trying to be critical, this is just my "brake". Blessings...
Sis already answered that a couple of time, check out the bottom half of post 334.
QuoteWhen you draw conclusions about God's desire for the sacrifice of Christ from God's desire for the sacrifice of bulls and goats you are mixing the shadow and the very image.
No I am not brother I am making a contrast.
Was Christ mixing together the shadow and the very image when he said God cares for the sparrow but we are of more value than many sparrows.
God did not desire the sacrifice of the bulls and goats, how much more than the sacrifice of His son.
QuoteSee you just compared God's desire for the shadow with God's desire for the very image.
That not mixing them Bob, that contrasting them. We are of more value than many sparrows.
QuoteYou just concluded that if God did not take pleasure in the shadow then God takes even less pleasure in the very image.
Yes based on the contrast. God did not take pleasure in the sacrifice of bulls and goats, so how much more displeasure in the sacrifice of His son.
If God cares for the life of the sparrow, how much more the life of His son.
By your reasoning God cared more for the life of the bulls and goats than He did for His own son.
QuoteHere it is right here Scott in the passage below. God did not take pleasure the sacrifice of bulls and goats, BUT IN CONTRAST God did want the sacrifice of His Son: God prepared Christ a body to be an offering to God by laying down His life. Christ came "Lo to do THY WILL" by sacrificing Himself.
Ok let's look at those scriptures.
• Hebrews 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, BUT a body hast thou prepared me:
Do you not see that even when Christ came into the world that Jesus said sacrifice and offerings thou wouldest NOT?
Yet you are saying God wanted sacrifice the total opposite of what that scripture just stated.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
No pleasure in, what I have been saying
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Obedience, what I have been saying
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Again no pleasure in, and both Adam and Jesus were offered up by the law. Adam by his own wilful disobedience, Christ by the wicked hands of the Jews. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die.
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Obedience, again what I have been saying
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Yes we are sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus, but that does not mean God wanted to have to sacrifice His son.
The blood of bulls and goats also covered the sins of the people Bob yet we know God had no delight in their sacrifice.
That is not to say God had no delight in the outcome of those sacrifices (for they covered sin) but God did not delight in the need to sacrifice them.
The same with Jesus.
What happened under shadow is what took place in reality and what your saying is that the shadow Christ cast is
opposite of the reality of Christ.
QuoteAs if God didn't know whether they would or would not reverence Christ.
That is NOT what I was saying brother.
QuoteMatthew 21:37 actually says "They WILL reverence Him" as opposed to "it may well be..."
The parable is showing God as a man without foreknowlege.
I agree it is a parable showing Gods foreknowledge and in that parable we see how God did not want to have to sacrifice His son because kept sending unto the people His servants. And it was only because of the stiff necked disobedience of the people God sent forth His son.
QuoteThe same way He gave Israel commandments He knew they would not obey when He was giving them. God gave commandments so "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Only to those who are UNDER the law Bob not every mouth in the world. And how did people get under the law? Disobedience.
And guilty means- subject to the judgments of God.
Therefore that scripture states ..... and all the world my become subject to the judgments of God.
myQuote
That response being the provision of sacrifice. Sacrifice was not in God's plan, but in response to the clay sacrifice became needful.QuoteThat's what "second best provision" means to me. If it was not God's original ideal plan, then it was not His 'best' plan. And it was a provision. So to me that's a provision which is second best.
That because you still see it as a part of Gods plan, but disobedience was NEVER a part of Gods plan. My ways are not your ways.
Mans way was disobedience and death and God said that was NOT His way.
You keep insisting on disobedience as being Gods plan yet you will not find that sentiment anywhere in scripture.
But you will find many a time where God is disgusted and weeps because of the peoples disobedience.
If He planned it all out as you say brother, then God anger and weeping for the peoples disobedience is all a sham.
Sham- something that is presented as genuine but that is not.- not genuine and used for deception- to pretend to be experiencing a condition such as illness or an emotion in order to deceive
QuoteAt the time Jesus quoted Hosea 6:6 God DID want to sacrifice His Son so how can Hosea 6:6 prove God did not.
Because in the volume of the book these things were spoken of HIM.
What things were spoken of HIM?
Sacrifice and offerings.
myQuote
God does not change brother so if He did not desire the shedding of the blood of innocent animals, how much more then the shedding of the blood of His innocent son?QuoteYes, God does not change. God is never pleased with the shedding of innocent blood. Not before man sinned or after.
Yet you just finished making an argument that God was pleased to sacrifice His son. You can't have it both ways Bob either He was pleased with the sacrifice of Christ or He was not.
QuoteYou can look at the death of Christ from two perspectives:
1. Christ laying down his life for the sins of the world
2. Christ being murdered, innocent blood being shed
God was well pleased with the sacrifice of His Son but was never pleased with his murder
.
And that is what I have been saying, God did NOT delight to have to sacrifice His son, but He was delighted with the sacrifice (Jesus) himself.
There is a difference between being delighted with what the sacrifice it's self and the need of sacrificing the sacrifice. But your calling them the same thing.
QuoteChrist's sacrifice was a "sweet smelling savour" to God. And God does not change. So how are you saying God did not desire it but later God did desire it?
• Epesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
The blood of bulls and goats were also a sweet smelling savour unto God brother and we KNOW that He did NOT desire their sacrifice.
There is nothing wrong with the sacrifices themselves, both the bulls/goat and Jesus God was pleased with, but God did NOT desire their sacrifice.
There is a difference and your mixing the two together and coming to the conclusion that because God was pleased with Jesus that He was also pleased with the need to sacrifice Jesus.
But we know that sacrifice and offerings God does not desire, but because of mans disobedience God implemented something He did not desire to implement.
QuoteYes, God hated them murdering His Son. Yet God sent His Son into the world for the purpose of be murdered. Desire vs Intention.
Yes, God planned the shedding of innocent blood. Jesus said "not my will but thine be done". But God did not desire what He hates. Desire vs Intention.
Have you ever intended to put yourself through something you hated for some greater good? Then you intended to go through what you hated without desiring what you hated.
What you're saying brother is God murdered His own son, because you say God PLANNED it that way from the beginning.
Does not matter if He pulled the trigger or not Bob, if it was His PLAN He is the murderer.
You want to let the mob boss off for murder and just blame the hit men.
Christ sacrifice was not a part of God PLAN, Christ sacrifice ONLY became necessary because of man disobedience.
So unless you can find a scripture that says God planned out or God's plan was through disobedience Bob you should really consider before the Lord what I am endeavouring to say.
Quote from: pneuma on April 10, 2009, 06:24:06 PMNo I am not brother I am making a contrast. Was Christ mixing together the shadow and the very image when he said God cares for the sparrow but we are of more value than many sparrows.
God did not desire the sacrifice of the bulls and goats, how much more than the sacrifice of His son. That not mixing them Bob, that contrasting them. We are of more value than many sparrows.
Yes based on the contrast. God did not take pleasure in the sacrifice of bulls and goats, so how much more displeasure in the sacrifice of His son. If God cares for the life of the sparrow, how much more the life of His son.
By your reasoning God cared more for the life of the bulls and goats than He did for His own son.
Scott, you are speaking as if the reason God did not take pleasure the sacrifice of bulls and goats was out of caring for the life of the bulls and goats. Yes God cares for the lives of sparrows, bulls, and goats. And much moreso for Christ and us. If God were simply saying "I don't like the sacrificing of bulls and goats because I care for the bulls and goats" then I would agree with you that even moreso that would apply to Jeus Christ.
But that's not what that saying is about. God was not complaining about the sacrificing process. God was compaining about the disobedience of the ones doing the sacrifices. In a similar fashion God also complained about their assemblies, holy days, feasts, fasting, prayers, sackcloth & ashes, and their worship. They were all a stench to God because they were disobedient to the heart of the law.
Quote4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, BUT a body hast thou prepared me:
Do you not see that even when Christ came into the world that Jesus said sacrifice and offerings thou wouldest NOT? Yet you are saying God wanted sacrifice the total opposite of what that scripture just stated.
Scott that is saying God doesn't give a rip about sacrificing bulls and goats, instead God prepared Christ a body in which He could lay down His life as God willed. The former is people killing animals, the latter is the greatest form of love.
The sacrifice of
bulls and goats can not take away sins WHEREFORE God said that He takes no pleasure in sacrifices and offerings. In contrast, Christ's sacrfice can and will take away sins. WHEREFORE God said no such thing about Christ's sacrifice.
Quote6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
No pleasure in, what I have been saying
Obedience, what I have been saying
Obedience to what? To sacrificing His life. God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, God was not pleased with Israel killing bulls and goats.
QuoteYes we are sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus, but that does not mean God wanted to have to sacrifice His son.
The blood of bulls and goats also covered the sins of the people Bob yet we know God had no delight in their sacrifice. That is not to say God had no delight in the outcome of those sacrifices (for they covered sin) but God did not delight in the need to sacrifice them. The same with Jesus.
I'm not saying God delighted in the sacrificING of Jesus. God delighted in Jesus' sacrifice. Laying down His life out of love.
QuoteWhat happened under shadow is what took place in reality and what your saying is that the shadow Christ cast is opposite of the reality of Christ.
physical circumcision shadowed circumcision of the heart
physical sabbath keeping shadowed us ceasing our works & entering into God's rest.
The shadows are similar to the very image or they wouldn't be types. But obeying the shadow and disobeying what it represents is a stench to God. In that sense, yes, they are polar opposites.
QuoteOnly to those who are UNDER the law Bob not every mouth in the world. And how did people get under the law? Disobedience. And guilty means- subject to the judgments of God. Therefore that scripture states ..... and all the world my become subject to the judgments of God.
No disagreement with your view of that scripture.
QuoteYou keep insisting on disobedience as being Gods plan yet you will not find that sentiment anywhere in scripture.
So unless you can find a scripture that says God planned out or God's plan was through disobedience Bob you should really consider before the Lord what I am endeavouring to say.
Romans 9. Those whom God chooses he chooses before they are born. Before they have obeyed or disobeyed. God's choice is not based on their willing or their running. God chooses to harden or have mercy upon whom He wills. Pharoah is given as a specific example. God planned to command pharoah one thing and then harden pharoah's heart so he would disobey. For the purpose of showing God's power, His displeasure with disobedience and His mercy. The whole plan of God regarding disobedience and obedience is in that chapter in summary form.
There are many others examples where God "did something" that helped cause or involved disobedience.
God moved David to number Israel.
God told Satan, behold Job is in your power, God removed Job's hedge so Satan could do his thing.
God sent lying spirits into the mouth of prophets.
God decieves prophets.
God sends a strong delusion so men will believe a lie.
God gave a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul.
God raised up evil against David.
Jesus came to blind those who see.
QuoteBut you will find many a time where God is disgusted and weeps because of the peoples disobedience. If He planned it all out as you say brother, then God anger and weeping for the peoples disobedience is all a sham. Sham- something that is presented as genuine but that is not.- not genuine and used for deception- to pretend to be experiencing a condition such as illness or an emotion in order to deceive.
God's anger and weeping is real. Intending is not approving. God judged pharoah because it was still pharoah's choice all the way through.
QuoteBecause in the volume of the book these things were spoken of HIM. What things were spoken of HIM? Sacrifice and offerings.
Right, God sent His Son to die. That's what God wanted Christ to do, God's will, by laying down His life. God was pleased with that.
QuoteYet you just finished making an argument that God was pleased to sacrifice His son. You can't have it both ways Bob either He was pleased with the sacrifice of Christ or He was not.
God was pleased with the act of love that Christ carried out, laying down His life. Not with sacrificING Christ. Even "it pleased the LORD to bruise Him" is due to Christ's act of obedience and love and the outcome, not the brutal act of Christ being crucified.
QuoteAnd that is what I have been saying, God did NOT delight to have to sacrifice His son, but He was delighted with the sacrifice (Jesus) himself.
If God HAD TO sacrifice Christ then man forced God's hand. We both agree there is a reason God sent Christ to die. You think that reason was outside of God's plan, man's disobedience. I think the reason was that God wanted to demonstrate the full measure of His love and have us follow Him. God showing Himself was accomplished by Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, laying down His life.
QuoteThere is a difference between being delighted with what the sacrifice it's self and the need of sacrificing the sacrifice. But your calling them the same thing.
I'm not saying God takes pleasure in sacrficING bulls, goats, or His Son.
QuoteThe blood of bulls and goats were also a sweet smelling savour unto God brother and we KNOW that He did NOT desire their sacrifice. There is nothing wrong with the sacrifices themselves, both the bulls/goat and Jesus God was pleased with, but God did NOT desire their sacrifice.
The blood of bulls and goats were not a sweet smeeling savour to God. Only what the blood of bulls and goats represented were a sweet smelling savour.
QuoteBut we know that sacrifice and offerings God does not desire, but because of mans disobedience God implemented something He did not desire to implement. What you're saying brother is God murdered His own son, because you say God PLANNED it that way from the beginning.
No, I'm not saying that at all Scott.
Suppose I were.
You just said God
implemented it out of need.
Then you would be saying that God murdered Christ because God needed to.
You think God "needed to" because man disobeyed.
I think God "needed to" because God decided to create man in His image. And that image is love. And that love in it's greatest form is laying down one's life for both friends and His enemies. So God intended to show us that. And God intended us to follow in His steps.
So God was pleased with the sacrifice (not -ING) of Christ because Christ showed us the Father.
It has been brought out that rather than sacrifice and offering, coming into a prepared body to do His will is what delights God. It is important to understand what the will of God is from the mouth of Jesus.
When Jesus forgave the sins of a paralytic the religious judges in the crowd said He was blaspheming. Telling them that in order for it to absolutely be known the son of man has power to forgive sins, Jesus responded with healing him. Then He said, "Now go, learn what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the just but sinners." (Mt 9:13, CLV cp., Ho 6:6) What these religious leaders did instead was conspire how they might kill Jesus. Then, a little later Jesus says to them, "Now if you had known what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice-you would not convict the faultless..." (Mt 12:7, CLV)
Mercy (Hbr: chesed) is the ardor to fulfill. Whatever the need is, it is the drive to meet that need. It is covenental love in action. It is God's darling attribute. Mercy, or grace (Grk: charis) is the result of having had the need met, of having been filled full. You need never again wonder at or miss God's will, for mercy is the absolute will of God. It determines how we are judged. "All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies." (Ps 25:10, AV) Such are thus equipped to perceive how all the doing and being of God is mercy. The image and glory of God rests upon the Mercy Throne.
:cloud9: Good post :thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on April 11, 2009, 07:39:48 AM
It has been brought out that rather than sacrifice and offering, coming into a prepared body to do His will is what delights God.
It is important to understand what the will of God is from the mouth of Jesus. When Jesus forgave the sins of a paralytic the religious judges in the crowd said He was blaspheming. Telling them that in order for it to absolutely be known the son of man has power to forgive sins, Jesus responded with healing him. Then He said, "Now go, learn what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the just but sinners." (Mt 9:13, CLV cp., Ho 6:6) What these religious leaders did instead was conspire how they might kill Jesus. Then, a little later Jesus says to them, "Now if you had known what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice-you would not convict the faultless..." (Mt 12:7, CLV) Mercy (Hbr: chesed) is the ardor to fulfill. Whatever the need is, it is the drive to meet that need. It is covenental love in action. It is God's darling attribute. Mercy, or grace (Grk: charis) is the result of having had the need met, of having been filled full. You need never again wonder at or miss God's will, for mercy is the absolute will of God. It determines how we are judged. "All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies." (Ps 25:10, AV) Such are thus equipped to perceive how all the doing and being of God is mercy. The image and glory of God rests upon the Mercy Throne.
yes all God's paths are mercy and truth.
But Gods ways are NOT our ways.
Our ways =disobedience and death
Gods ways = obedience and life.
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Whos ways = death?
MANS
QuoteScott, you are speaking as if the reason God did not take pleasure the sacrifice of bulls and goats was out of caring for the life of the bulls and goats. Yes God cares for the lives of sparrows, bulls, and goats. And much moreso for Christ and us. If God were simply saying "I don't like the sacrificing of bulls and goats because I care for the bulls and goats" then I would agree with you that even moreso that would apply to Jeus Christ.
But that's not what that saying is about. God was not complaining about the sacrificing process. God was compaining about the disobedience of the ones doing the sacrifices. In a similar fashion God also complained about their assemblies, holy days, feasts, fasting, prayers, sackcloth & ashes, and their worship. They were all a stench to God because they were disobedient to the heart of the law.
Bob it does not matter if there is a further layer to the onion the top layer must still apply. So my point still stands.
So let us look at your point.
The people offered up sacrifices in disobedience, and God did not desire that.
So you must than believe that those who offered up Christ sacrificed Him in obedience to God. Then why did Jesus say forgive them for they know not what they do?
Even by your point brother, it shows God did NOT desire the sacrifice of Christ.
QuoteScott that is saying God doesn't give a rip about sacrificing bulls and goats, instead God prepared Christ a body in which He could lay down His life as God willed. The former is people killing animals, the latter is the greatest form of love.
The sacrifice of bulls and goats can not take away sins WHEREFORE God said that He takes no pleasure in sacrifices and offerings. In contrast, Christ's sacrfice can and will take away sins. WHEREFORE God said no such thing about Christ's sacrifice.
Bob there is a difference between Christ sacrifice which was total obedience to the Father, and the sacrifice of Christ that the people made of Christ.
Obedience=life
Disobedience=death
And why was Christ sacrificed? Because of disobedience which = death.
QuoteObedience to what? To sacrificing His life. God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, God was not pleased with Israel killing bulls and goats.
That is what I have been saying Bob.
God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, but was NOT pleased with the people who slew Him or the need to do so.
Why was God not pleased with those who slew Christ?
Because God did not desire the sacrifices of disobedience.
QuoteI'm not saying God delighted in the sacrificING of Jesus. God delighted in Jesus' sacrifice. Laying down His life out of love.
Then we are in agreement here.
So why did Christ have to lay down His life?
Because of MANS disobedience not because God planned desired Christ death from the very beginning.
myQuote
What happened under shadow is what took place in reality and what your saying is that the shadow Christ cast is opposite of the reality of Christ.Quotephysical circumcision shadowed circumcision of the heart
physical sabbath keeping shadowed us ceasing our works & entering into God's rest.
The shadows are similar to the very image or they wouldn't be types. But obeying the shadow and disobeying what it represents is a stench to God. In that sense, yes, they are polar opposites.
And by saying Christ sacrifice for disobedience was desired by God is disagreeing with what the shadow represents.
The shadow show us that God did not desire sacrifice; therefore, as the shadow represents Christ, God did not desire Christ sacrifice.
Your understanding changes what the sacrifices represent.
Therefore, the sacrifice of old cannot represent Christ.
But they do represent Christ; therefore, we can understand that God did not desire the sacrifice of Christ for disobedience.
myQuote
You keep insisting on disobedience as being Gods plan yet you will not find that sentiment anywhere in scripture.So unless you can find a scripture that says God planned out or God's plan was through disobedience Bob you should really consider before the Lord what I am endeavouring to say.QuoteRomans 9. Those whom God chooses he chooses before they are born. Before they have obeyed or disobeyed. God's choice is not based on their willing or their running. God chooses to harden or have mercy upon whom He wills. Pharoah is given as a specific example. God planned to command pharoah one thing and then harden pharoah's heart so he would disobey. For the purpose of showing God's power, His displeasure with disobedience and His mercy. The whole plan of God regarding disobedience and obedience is in that chapter in summary form.
There are many others examples where God "did something" that helped cause or involved disobedience.
God moved David to number Israel.
God told Satan, behold Job is in your power, God removed Job's hedge so Satan could do his thing.
God sent lying spirits into the mouth of prophets.
God decieves prophets.
God sends a strong delusion so men will believe a lie.
God gave a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul.
God raised up evil against David.
Jesus came to blind those who see.
Bob every example you have used is Gods weaving because of disobedience. We are talking about TWO different aspects here and you are mixing them together thinking they are the same.
Because of man disobedience God made provisions for man to come before Him, one of those provisions was sacrifice; therefore, God did that which He did not desire.
Death was in the world before Christ came and God weaved through Christ life out of death.
QuoteGod's anger and weeping is real. Intending is not approving. God judged pharoah because it was still pharoah's choice all the way through.
Well if God planned it all out from the beginning as you say Bob than tell me why He did NOT approve of His own plan :dontknow:?
QuoteRight, God sent His Son to die. That's what God wanted Christ to do, God's will, by laying down His life. God was pleased with that.
Again we agree on this part Bob, God sent His son to lay down His life. Complete agreement.
Where we disagree is WHY?
You say it was because God planned man to be disobedient (but did not approve of this part of His own plan :dontknow:), so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.
And I see Gods PLAN/WAY as obedience from the very start, that Christ sacrifice was NOT a part of the PLAN/WAY, but because of mans disobedience God responded to the clay and sent His son in response to mans disobedience.
Our reason for WHY Christ had to come and die for us is our disagreement.
You believe God planned if from the beginning, I believe God responded to the clays disobedience and God weaved sacrifice in order for man to be able to come back to Him.
I don't believe God disapproves of any part of His plan, yet in your understanding God must disapprove of part of His own plan.
QuoteGod was pleased with the act of love that Christ carried out, laying down His life.
I agree and it is what I have been saying.
QuoteNot with sacrificING Christ.
That is also what I have been saying, you're the one who has been saying God desired Christ sacrifice.
QuoteEven "it pleased the LORD to bruise Him" is due to Christ's act of obedience and love and the outcome, not the brutal act of Christ being crucified.
I agree, a sacrifice of obedience, not a sacrifice of disobedience.
myQuote
And that is what I have been saying, God did NOT delight to have to sacrifice His son, but He was delighted with the sacrifice (Jesus) himself.QuoteIf God HAD TO sacrifice Christ then man forced God's hand.
Tis the potter responding to the clay Bob.
How many times do we read in scripture God telling the people that if they repent and obey His voice that He will heal them etc., but also telling them the outcome of what would happen if they continue in disobedience?
So what happens when man continues to walk in disobedience?
Is their disobedience according to God plan as you believe, or is their disobedience their own and we see God responding to their disobedience?
QuoteWe both agree there is a reason God sent Christ to die. You think that reason was outside of God's plan, man's disobedience.
Yes, and unless someone can show me a scripture that states God planned for mans disobedience from the get go I'll continue to believe it.
But don't forget I also believe God weaves man disobedience so that good can come out of evil.
QuoteI think the reason was that God wanted to demonstrate the full measure of His love and have us follow Him. God showing Himself was accomplished by Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, laying down His life.
Bob in order to show your younger sons what true love is do you plan to have your oldest son beaten and murdered?
That's basically what you are saying.
I believe love begets love and I don't believe we need to sin in order to understand love.
myQuote
There is a difference between being delighted with what the sacrifice it's self and the need of sacrificing the sacrifice. But your calling them the same thing.QuoteI'm not saying God takes pleasure in sacrficING bulls, goats, or His Son.
Then why have you been disagreeing with me?
QuoteThe blood of bulls and goats were not a sweet smeeling savour to God. Only what the blood of bulls and goats represented were a sweet smelling savour.
Although I agree it is what they represent as being the sweet smelling savour, I disagree that the bulls and goats themselves were not a sweet smelling savour for they also covered sin year by year and if they were not a sweet smelling savour this would not have been the case.
myQuote
But we know that sacrifice and offerings God does not desire, but because of mans disobedience God implemented something He did not desire to implement. What you're saying brother is God murdered His own son, because you say God PLANNED it that way from the beginning.QuoteNo, I'm not saying that at all Scott.
Suppose I were.
Well are you or are you not letting the mob boss off the hook for murder his henchmen committed?
QuoteYou just said God implemented it out of need.
Then you would be saying that God murdered Christ because God needed to.
I don't believe God planned or murdered Jesus Bob, Jesus laid down His own life FREELY. But yes God sent His son to die out of need, MANS need, NOT His.
QuoteYou think God "needed to" because man disobeyed.
Yep, tis the potter responding to the clay.
QuoteI think God "needed to" because God decided to create man in His image. And that image is love. And that love in it's greatest form is laying down one's life for both friends and His enemies. So God intended to show us that. And God intended us to follow in His steps.
And I believe man is made in God image through obedience, not through disobedience, which is what we are left with if God planned mans disobedience.
"For my pardon, this I see ...nothing but the blood of Jesus; for my cleansing this my plea ...nothing but the blood of Jesus."
Many are fixated on Jesus' death, and will accept nothing but the blood of Jesus, as "they know not, what they do."
Although, there is only ONE whose undeniable innocence (not an ordinary victim) was able to change the process of scapegoating; a slaughterhouse religion having a ritual carnivorous diet. And it is a saving act of God – a victory over the powers of this world and a defeat of death. Reversing it through Resurrection.
The cross may, indeed be, the centerpiece of the Christian religion, but it is not God's altar. Rather, it is the gospel which was/is/will end all bloodshed, not that of merely exchanging victims (i.e. bulls and goats for that of Christ, or as a substitution, taking the place of another). It was a sacrifice to end all sacrificing.
"Let's not make it a prescription for suffering death, but ONE of LIFE."
Through personal experience, the human race will learn how deadly and destructive their choices have been. Collectively, we still have not learned that lesson, but we will – that's a promise!
In His Love, and mine,
peacemaker
Quote from: pneuma on April 11, 2009, 07:01:35 PMBob it does not matter if there is a further layer to the onion the top layer must still apply. So my point still stands.
Scott,
(1) God did not take pleasure in the killng of Jesus Christ which was an act of hate.
(2) God did take pleasure in Christ laying down his life which was an act of love.
If (1) is the outside layer of your onion then I agree. If (2) is the outside layer then I disagree.
"sacrifices and offerings thou wouldest not" is not a comment on (2). Frankly, I don't think it's even a comment on (1) either -- "thou shallt not kill" is a comment on (1).
My understanding is that "sacrifices and offerings thou wouldest not" is comment similar to this comment about circumcision:
- Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
IOW physical sacrifice and physical circumcison according to the letter but void of the spirit are vain worship.
Anyway it's kind of moot since we agree that God does not take pleasure in sacrfic
ing.
QuoteThe people offered up sacrifices in disobedience, and God did not desire that.
Yes. For me that means they were disobedient to the heart of the law - mercy, love, faith. Therefore God did not take pleasure in their sacrifices, prayers, incense, fasting, etc.
QuoteSo you must than believe that those who offered up Christ sacrificed Him in obedience to God.
Absolutely not.
QuoteThen why did Jesus say forgive them for they know not what they do?
It was murder.
QuoteEven by your point brother, it shows God did NOT desire the sacrifice of Christ.
Again "the sacrifice of Christ" can refer multiple things.
1. The sacrifice Christ made which was an act of love.
2. The sacrificing of Christ by those who crucified Him which was an act of hate.
One event, two intentions. The intention of Christ. The inention of the people. God approved of (1) but not of (2). God intended the whole.
It is like what I was trying to explain with Paul's thorn in the flesh. Wrapped up in that thorn was
1. the love of God.
2. the hatred of Satan and his messengers.
One event, two intentions. The intention of God. The intention of the messengers of Satan. God approved of (1) but not of (2). God intended the whole.
Same thing with Job, God, and Satan.
QuoteBob there is a difference between Christ sacrifice which was total obedience to the Father, and the sacrifice of Christ that the people made of Christ.
I agree. That's what I have been saying too. But I think we've been using different words.
When you say "sacrifice of Christ" you are picturing what the people did which I starting calling "the sacrificING of Christ" in order to make the distinction. When I hear "sacrifice of Christ" I picture primarily Christ's act of love and God's sending Him to show us the way to the Father.
QuoteObedience=life
Disobedience=death
And why was Christ sacrificed? Because of disobedience which = death.
I agree Scott. It's just that I belive there was an additional purpose which was purposed from the beginning.
QuoteThat is what I have been saying Bob. God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, but was NOT pleased with the people who slew Him or the need to do so.
We agree on that point.
QuoteWhy was God not pleased with those who slew Christ? Because God did not desire the sacrifices of disobedience.
Simply because they were full of hate.
QuoteThen we are in agreement here. So why did Christ have to lay down His life? Because of MANS disobedience not because God planned desired Christ death from the very beginning.
And that's where we disagree.
QuoteAnd by saying Christ sacrifice for disobedience was desired by God is disagreeing with what the shadow represents. The shadow show us that God did not desire sacrifice; therefore, as the shadow represents Christ, God did not desire Christ sacrifice. Your understanding changes what the sacrifices represent.
See and this just shows how the phrases "sacrifice of Chist" and "Christ sacrfice" are ambigous. Because here you say "God did not desire
Christ sacrifice" but a few lines up you say "
Christ sacrifice which was total obedience to the Father". It just depends on whether you happen to be viewing those phrases as referring to Christ's act or the act of the people.
Anyway, I disagree that I am disagreeing with what the shadow represents.
To me it's just like circumcision. Paul said circumcision is nothing. Anyone trying to become right with God through physical circumcision is fallen from grace. Does that mean that circumcison of the heart is also nothing? No.
QuoteTherefore, the sacrifice of old cannot represent Christ. But they do represent Christ; therefore, we can understand that God did not desire the sacrifice of Christ for disobedience.
They do represent Christ. God desires inward circumcision not outward circumcision. God deisres us to become burnt offerings seasoned with salt, not for us to offer up literal burnt offerings seasoned with salt. God desires us to enter into His rest, not for us to observe holy days.
QuoteBob every example you have used is Gods weaving because of disobedience. We are talking about TWO different aspects here and you are mixing them together thinking they are the same.
Planning to harden pharoah's heart before giving the command to him is planning not weaving. Also, hardening a heart is weaving disobedience. So is blinding those who see, and sending lying spirits, and moving David to number Israel. God is able to weave good out of each of those.
QuoteWell if God planned it all out from the beginning as you say Bob than tell me why He did NOT approve of His own plan
Scott, you have decided that if God intends something to occur then God must be approving of the hearts of every invidual involved in that plan. That is just not so in scripture.
QuoteWhere we disagree is WHY?
I agree that's where we disagree. It's not that I disagree with your reason. Christ died for our sins and so for our disobedence. Just that's not the complete picture.
QuoteYou say it was because God planned man to be disobedient (but did not approve of this part of His own plan :dontknow:)...
God approved of His plan for man to be disobedient, but God did not approve man's disobedience. Those two are not one and the same. There are two hearts & intentions going on there. God's and man's. God approved of what He was doing, not of what man was doing.
An example from scripture: God approved of His plan to try Job. God approved of His plan to tell Satan to go and harm Job. But God did not approve of Satan's heart in doing so.
Quote...so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.
Again, when you say "Christ's death" that can refer to
a) Christ laying down His life on the cross
b) People murdering Christ
God approved of the overal plan because without (b) there is no (a). But God never remotely approved of (b) itself.
Even from your POV. You believe God approved of His plan to send Christ to die after mankind sinned. Yet you do not believe God approved of (b).
QuoteAnd I see Gods PLAN/WAY as obedience from the very start...
I agree that obedience has always been and always will be the way to come to the Father and be conformed to His image. God planned for pharoah to disobey but pharoah's dsiobedience was not God's way.
Quotethat Christ sacrifice was NOT a part of the PLAN/WAY, but because of mans disobedience God responded to the clay and sent His son in response to mans disobedience.
There is that phrase "Christ sacrifice" again. Before you said Christ's sacrifice was total obedience to the Father but now you say it was not God's plan/way. I agree that His sacrifice of Himself laying down His life was total obeidence. The greatest obedience. To greatest love. I believe God intended to show us that way from the beginning.
QuoteOur reason for WHY Christ had to come and die for us is our disagreement.
You believe God planned if from the beginning, I believe God responded to the clays disobedience and God weaved sacrifice in order for man to be able to come back to Him.
Yes. I think we agree on most things, just not that.
QuoteI don't believe God disapproves of any part of His plan, yet in your understanding God must disapprove of part of His own plan.
I think God approved of 100% of His plan too. Wouldn't you agree that God approved of 100% of His plan to give Paul a thorn in the flesh without approving the messengers of Satan who were the thorn in Paul's flesh?
QuoteThat is also what I have been saying, you're the one who has been saying God desired Christ sacrifice.
By Christ's sacrifice I was referring to Christ's act of love.
QuoteI agree, a sacrifice of obedience, not a sacrifice of disobedience.
I believe God intended from the beginning to show us what a "sacrifice of obedience" looks like and intends us to follow suit.
QuoteHow many times do we read in scripture God telling the people that if they repent and obey His voice that He will heal them etc., but also telling them the outcome of what would happen if they continue in disobedience? So what happens when man continues to walk in disobedience?
Just like God told pharoah before God hardened his heart.
QuoteIs their disobedience according to God plan as you believe, or is their disobedience their own and we see God responding to their disobedience?
Pharoah's disobedience was his own even though God planned it. Pharoah was making "everyday" choices just like we make though under more extreme circumstances. God did not do anything magical to puppteer pharoah into doing anything.
QuoteYes, and unless someone can show me a scripture that states God planned for mans disobedience from the get go I'll continue to believe it. But don't forget I also believe God weaves man disobedience so that good can come out of evil.
God planned for pharoah to disobey before God had any of pharoah's disobedience to weave.
Another question to ask as a way to decide this is based on the fact that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends".
The question is: Did God intend from the beginning to put this form of love on display? Did God intend from the beginning for us to live out this love?
If God intended us to never disobey then I think the answer would be "no".
I don't know of any scripture that answers that question though.
QuoteBob in order to show your younger sons what true love is do you plan to have your oldest son beaten and murdered? That's basically what you are saying.
Well, if one son disobeys, I don't send the other to die for his sins either.
You previously said that God implemented the same but for a different reason, due to man's disobedience. So I could turn that around and ask you Scott, when one of your sons disobeys do you plan to send another son to be beaten and murdered on his behalf?
QuoteI believe love begets love and I don't believe we need to sin in order to understand love.
I don't believe we need to sin to love either. But in order to love a sinner there needs to be a sinner to love.
QuoteThen why have you been disagreeing with me?
Communcation disconnect over the phrases "sacrifice of Christ" and "Christ's sacrifice". As I pointed out above you can view those from two angles and it affects whether God approves or disapproves.
QuoteAlthough I agree it is what they represent as being the sweet smelling savour, I disagree that the bulls and goats themselves were not a sweet smelling savour for they also covered sin year by year and if they were not a sweet smelling savour this would not have been the case.
To me it's like the manna from heaven. In the OT Moses says it WAS bread from heaven but in the NT Jesus said it WAS NOT the bread from heaven. The manna Moses gave did come from heaven and did keep them alive but it wasn't the real deal.
QuoteI don't believe God planned or murdered Jesus Bob, Jesus laid down His own life FREELY. But yes God sent His son to die out of need, MANS need, NOT His.
I also believe Jesus laid down His life freely and even the Father did not required it of Him in the sense that God did not force Him though it was the will of the Father. It was a loving choice to do the Father's will.
Quote from: pneuma on April 11, 2009, 07:01:35 PM
QuoteScott, you are speaking as if the reason God did not take pleasure the sacrifice of bulls and goats was out of caring for the life of the bulls and goats. Yes God cares for the lives of sparrows, bulls, and goats. And much moreso for Christ and us. If God were simply saying "I don't like the sacrificing of bulls and goats because I care for the bulls and goats" then I would agree with you that even moreso that would apply to Jeus Christ.
But that's not what that saying is about. God was not complaining about the sacrificing process. God was compaining about the disobedience of the ones doing the sacrifices. In a similar fashion God also complained about their assemblies, holy days, feasts, fasting, prayers, sackcloth & ashes, and their worship. They were all a stench to God because they were disobedient to the heart of the law.
Bob it does not matter if there is a further layer to the onion the top layer must still apply. So my point still stands.
So let us look at your point.
The people offered up sacrifices in disobedience, and God did not desire that.
So you must than believe that those who offered up Christ sacrificed Him in obedience to God. Then why did Jesus say forgive them for they know not what they do?
Even by your point brother, it shows God did NOT desire the sacrifice of Christ.
QuoteScott that is saying God doesn't give a rip about sacrificing bulls and goats, instead God prepared Christ a body in which He could lay down His life as God willed. The former is people killing animals, the latter is the greatest form of love.
The sacrifice of bulls and goats can not take away sins WHEREFORE God said that He takes no pleasure in sacrifices and offerings. In contrast, Christ's sacrfice can and will take away sins. WHEREFORE God said no such thing about Christ's sacrifice.
Bob there is a difference between Christ sacrifice which was total obedience to the Father, and the sacrifice of Christ that the people made of Christ.
Obedience=life
Disobedience=death
And why was Christ sacrificed? Because of disobedience which = death.
QuoteObedience to what? To sacrificing His life. God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, God was not pleased with Israel killing bulls and goats.
That is what I have been saying Bob.
God was pleased with Christ laying down His life, but was NOT pleased with the people who slew Him or the need to do so.
Why was God not pleased with those who slew Christ?
Because God did not desire the sacrifices of disobedience.
QuoteI'm not saying God delighted in the sacrificING of Jesus. God delighted in Jesus' sacrifice. Laying down His life out of love.
Then we are in agreement here.
So why did Christ have to lay down His life?
Because of MANS disobedience not because God planned desired Christ death from the very beginning.
myQuote
What happened under shadow is what took place in reality and what your saying is that the shadow Christ cast is opposite of the reality of Christ.
Quotephysical circumcision shadowed circumcision of the heart
physical sabbath keeping shadowed us ceasing our works & entering into God's rest.
The shadows are similar to the very image or they wouldn't be types. But obeying the shadow and disobeying what it represents is a stench to God. In that sense, yes, they are polar opposites.
And by saying Christ sacrifice for disobedience was desired by God is disagreeing with what the shadow represents.
The shadow show us that God did not desire sacrifice; therefore, as the shadow represents Christ, God did not desire Christ sacrifice.
Your understanding changes what the sacrifices represent.
Therefore, the sacrifice of old cannot represent Christ.
But they do represent Christ; therefore, we can understand that God did not desire the sacrifice of Christ for disobedience.
myQuote
You keep insisting on disobedience as being Gods plan yet you will not find that sentiment anywhere in scripture.
So unless you can find a scripture that says God planned out or God's plan was through disobedience Bob you should really consider before the Lord what I am endeavouring to say.
QuoteRomans 9. Those whom God chooses he chooses before they are born. Before they have obeyed or disobeyed. God's choice is not based on their willing or their running. God chooses to harden or have mercy upon whom He wills. Pharoah is given as a specific example. God planned to command pharoah one thing and then harden pharoah's heart so he would disobey. For the purpose of showing God's power, His displeasure with disobedience and His mercy. The whole plan of God regarding disobedience and obedience is in that chapter in summary form.
There are many others examples where God "did something" that helped cause or involved disobedience.
God moved David to number Israel.
God told Satan, behold Job is in your power, God removed Job's hedge so Satan could do his thing.
God sent lying spirits into the mouth of prophets.
God decieves prophets.
God sends a strong delusion so men will believe a lie.
God gave a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul.
God raised up evil against David.
Jesus came to blind those who see.
Bob every example you have used is Gods weaving because of disobedience. We are talking about TWO different aspects here and you are mixing them together thinking they are the same.
Because of man disobedience God made provisions for man to come before Him, one of those provisions was sacrifice; therefore, God did that which He did not desire.
Death was in the world before Christ came and God weaved through Christ life out of death.
QuoteGod's anger and weeping is real. Intending is not approving. God judged pharoah because it was still pharoah's choice all the way through.
Well if God planned it all out from the beginning as you say Bob than tell me why He did NOT approve of His own plan :dontknow:?
QuoteRight, God sent His Son to die. That's what God wanted Christ to do, God's will, by laying down His life. God was pleased with that.
Again we agree on this part Bob, God sent His son to lay down His life. Complete agreement.
Where we disagree is WHY?
You say it was because God planned man to be disobedient (but did not approve of this part of His own plan :dontknow:), so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.
And I see Gods PLAN/WAY as obedience from the very start, that Christ sacrifice was NOT a part of the PLAN/WAY, but because of mans disobedience God responded to the clay and sent His son in response to mans disobedience.
Our reason for WHY Christ had to come and die for us is our disagreement.
You believe God planned if from the beginning, I believe God responded to the clays disobedience and God weaved sacrifice in order for man to be able to come back to Him.
I don't believe God disapproves of any part of His plan, yet in your understanding God must disapprove of part of His own plan.
QuoteGod was pleased with the act of love that Christ carried out, laying down His life.
I agree and it is what I have been saying.
QuoteNot with sacrificING Christ.
That is also what I have been saying, you're the one who has been saying God desired Christ sacrifice.
QuoteEven "it pleased the LORD to bruise Him" is due to Christ's act of obedience and love and the outcome, not the brutal act of Christ being crucified.
I agree, a sacrifice of obedience, not a sacrifice of disobedience.
myQuote
And that is what I have been saying, God did NOT delight to have to sacrifice His son, but He was delighted with the sacrifice (Jesus) himself.
QuoteIf God HAD TO sacrifice Christ then man forced God's hand.
Tis the potter responding to the clay Bob.
How many times do we read in scripture God telling the people that if they repent and obey His voice that He will heal them etc., but also telling them the outcome of what would happen if they continue in disobedience?
So what happens when man continues to walk in disobedience?
Is their disobedience according to God plan as you believe, or is their disobedience their own and we see God responding to their disobedience?
QuoteWe both agree there is a reason God sent Christ to die. You think that reason was outside of God's plan, man's disobedience.
Yes, and unless someone can show me a scripture that states God planned for mans disobedience from the get go I'll continue to believe it.
But don't forget I also believe God weaves man disobedience so that good can come out of evil.
QuoteI think the reason was that God wanted to demonstrate the full measure of His love and have us follow Him. God showing Himself was accomplished by Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, laying down His life.
Bob in order to show your younger sons what true love is do you plan to have your oldest son beaten and murdered?
That's basically what you are saying.
I believe love begets love and I don't believe we need to sin in order to understand love.
myQuote
There is a difference between being delighted with what the sacrifice it's self and the need of sacrificing the sacrifice. But your calling them the same thing.
QuoteI'm not saying God takes pleasure in sacrficING bulls, goats, or His Son.
Then why have you been disagreeing with me?
QuoteThe blood of bulls and goats were not a sweet smeeling savour to God. Only what the blood of bulls and goats represented were a sweet smelling savour.
Although I agree it is what they represent as being the sweet smelling savour, I disagree that the bulls and goats themselves were not a sweet smelling savour for they also covered sin year by year and if they were not a sweet smelling savour this would not have been the case.
myQuote
But we know that sacrifice and offerings God does not desire, but because of mans disobedience God implemented something He did not desire to implement. What you're saying brother is God murdered His own son, because you say God PLANNED it that way from the beginning.
QuoteNo, I'm not saying that at all Scott.
Suppose I were.
Well are you or are you not letting the mob boss off the hook for murder his henchmen committed?
QuoteYou just said God implemented it out of need.
Then you would be saying that God murdered Christ because God needed to.
I don't believe God planned or murdered Jesus Bob, Jesus laid down His own life FREELY. But yes God sent His son to die out of need, MANS need, NOT His.
QuoteYou think God "needed to" because man disobeyed.
Yep, tis the potter responding to the clay.
QuoteI think God "needed to" because God decided to create man in His image. And that image is love. And that love in it's greatest form is laying down one's life for both friends and His enemies. So God intended to show us that. And God intended us to follow in His steps.
And I believe man is made in God image through obedience, not through disobedience, which is what we are left with if God planned mans disobedience.
Of course God desired the sacrifice of Christ. He planned the whole thing. It was God's cup that the Son was drinking from. God knew that He was providing us the sacrificial lamb (our passover). I know and accept that I murdered Jesus Christ, but what comes along with that is having slain my passover lamb. Jesus showed it was not his own will for why he died but of His Father's will:
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Obviously, Jesus wants us to know that it was not his own will that wanted to die but that it was His Father's will. So if Jesus performs that which is not His will - it is no longer him but God in him that does such. This is just like it is no longer our will in us but Christ Jesus in us that puts down sin in our own body of flesh. It is not my will to do so but His.
Think of the opposite. If it was not God's Will for Jesus to die then something went contrary to God's will. Obviously it was God's will for Jesus to die that He did or else it would not happen. Nothing can prevent God's will from happening. So if we sin NOW, it is according to God's will that we are able to do such.
Paul
I like your summary Paul :thumbsup:. Good word, brother.
Will is the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action:
The choice which is made; a determination or preference which results from the act or exercise of the power of choice; a volition, or willingness. To be willing; to be inclined or disposed; to be pleased; to wish; to desire.
An active option, as opposed to a subjective impulse having no purpose.
peacemaker
peacemaker,
People can come to it in different ways. I felt I had to jetison the "free will" doctrine I was raised in as a child when I experienced a revelation of the absolute sovereignty of God. It even went so far as being overcome with the reality of God as Totality. His being the all in all overwhelmed me. Yet, He gave us wills. There's a will of the flesh rather independent of me that I refuse. The spirit lusts against the flesh (and vice versa.) I have been led of God to accept His desire for me to make decisions and commitments. I am supposed to exercise my will. I am not sovereign. I am a dependent aspect of His image.
"I will love thee, O LORD, my strength." (Ps 18:1, AV..."I passion You, O IEUE, my Steadfastness." CLV)
Sometimes God has moved me to one side, as it were, taking over my body. He took me over to see out of the back of my head someone approaching. He caused me to stand and turn, rebuking the devil. I had to finish the rebuke, tacking, "...in the name of Jesus" on the end. He has possessed me. Sometimes I am completely overcome by Him. This just is not operating according to my own will. Much about ourselves, our circumstances have nothing to do with any exercise of our own wills. Yet, we are to use our ability to close with a matter, to decide on a thing, to commit ourselves to a path of duty. God delights to meet us in that.
:cloud9: I experienced what you are talking about once. He stepped into me full body from behind like you would step into a garment, as I was preparing to pray for a demon possessed men, and said one word (to the man) and snapped my fingers by the man's ear, and then stepped out. The man was slain in the Spirit instantly.
Both speaking and snapping my fingers that He did, were done by bypassing my carnal mind completely, ie. I had no forethought of doing or being told to do it, He just DID IT. I was so astonished all I could do was sob and praise Him. I have wondered ever since, is this what it is going to be like to be literally be FILLED with the Spirit? I think I got a taste of it, and it was just like you were "set aside" yet there, for a moment.
THANK YOU for sharing this. I've never heard anyone else speak of this in all my years of walking with Him. Blessings...
There are times when He took over my body as I was worshipping Him while playing the keyboards. I was literally to one side, shifted slightly to the right of Him, observing Him as He wore my body, using my hands to play the piano Himself as I watched right there, experiencing the anointing power of His presence.
O, to know more of His overcoming grace!!! Take me Jesus!
:cloud9: He is amazing, no doubt about it...... :thumbsup:
QuoteI agree. That's what I have been saying too. But I think we've been using different words.
When you say "sacrifice of Christ" you are picturing what the people did which I starting calling "the sacrificING of Christ" in order to make the distinction. When I hear "sacrifice of Christ" I picture primarily Christ's act of love and God's sending Him to show us the way to the Father.
See and this just shows how the phrases "sacrifice of Chist" and "Christ sacrfice" are ambigous. Because here you say "God did not desire Christ sacrifice" but a few lines up you say "Christ sacrifice which was total obedience to the Father". It just depends on whether you happen to be viewing those phrases as referring to Christ's act or the act of the people.
Ya never said I was good with words, I thought that might be part of the problem that is why I tried to phrase it about 4 different ways. But I think we understand each other finally.
Christ sacrifice of Himself out of love is good.
The sacrifice of Christ by the people is not good.
One point finally down and we are in agreement.
QuotePlanning to harden pharoah's heart before giving the command to him is planning not weaving. Also, hardening a heart is weaving disobedience. So is blinding those who see, and sending lying spirits, and moving David to number Israel. God is able to weave good out of each of those.
God planned for pharoah to disobey before God had any of pharoah's disobedience to weave.
God knows what is in the hearts of men Bob, and knew the disobedience of Pharaoh was already in his heart. And God weaved that disobedience into something good. And God blinded the people because of their disobedience; thus, He used their disobedience against them.
But again when did these things happen Bob?
Was it BEFORE Adam's disobedience or AFTER?
This is what I am trying to get you to consider.
AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are very close in our understanding.
It's BEFORE Adam's disobedience that our biggest differences come in.
You say God planned for Adam to be disobedient, and I disagree, God planned for Adam to be obedient.
And it is this aspect we should be concentrating on.
Quote
Another question to ask as a way to decide this is based on the fact that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends".
The question is: Did God intend from the beginning to put this form of love on display? Did God intend from the beginning for us to live out this love?
If God intended us to never disobey then I think the answer would be "no".
The answer is yes and God never intended man to be disobedient.
Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death.
They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ.
Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world.
Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree?
NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone.
So how could of Adam's obedience have saved Eve?
Matthew 16:25
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve.
Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this.
Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?
Thus Gods plan for salvation and being made into His image and likeness was and has been always through obedience and not through disobedience.
Quote
Yes, and unless someone can show me a scripture that states God planned for mans disobedience from the get go I'll continue to believe it. But don't forget I also believe God weaves man disobedience so that good can come out of evil.QuoteI don't know of any scripture that answers that question though.
Then why believe it brother?
I know your reasoning and if you used that reasoning AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are basically in agreement. But when you take that reasoning all the way back to the beginning and say that disobedience was always in God plan, that God wanted Adam to be disobedient to show forth true love you attribute to God mans disobedience.
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself
What are mans ways?
Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?
Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?
Do you think it is possible that you cannot find any scriptures that answer that question because the scriptures actually say something else?
QuoteGod approved of His plan for man to be disobedient, but God did not approve man's disobedience. Those two are not one and the same. There are two hearts & intentions going on there. God's and man's. God approved of what He was doing, not of what man was doing.
And again I ask for scripture that states where God says He approves of disobedience in any fashion, whether it be His plan or any other point.
Also you are here again trying to let the mob boss off the hook and lay the blame on the hitman.
If God planned for man to be disobedient then God is responsible for every disobedient thing that comes from the heart of man.
Therefore how can God disapprove of what man does through disobedience when disobedience was God's plan? You want to believe they are two separate things Bob but ultimately the buck has to stop with God.
QuoteAn example from scripture: God approved of His plan to try Job. God approved of His plan to tell Satan to go and harm Job. But God did not approve of Satan's heart in doing so.
Two things here Bob, first, this was AFTER Adam's disobedience not BEFORE. And whether you can see it or not that makes a difference.
The second thing is Job is a hard book to understand for God also says to satan "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".
This would indicate that God did not plan to try Job, but did so at the instigation of satan.
QuoteI think God approved of 100% of His plan too. Wouldn't you agree that God approved of 100% of His plan to give Paul a thorn in the flesh without approving the messengers of Satan who were the thorn in Paul's flesh?
Again this is AFTER Adam's disobedience NOT before.
QuoteWell, if one son disobeys, I don't send the other to die for his sins either.
You previously said that God implemented the same but for a different reason, due to man's disobedience. So I could turn that around and ask you Scott, when one of your sons disobeys do you plan to send another son to be beaten and murdered on his behalf?
Because of mans disobedience death entered the world, the only way God could then save his children was to send His son into death to save them out of it.
So yes, if I had billions of sons in death I would ask my oldest son to enter into death to save them, but that does not mean I wanted to send my oldest son into death.
Our scenarios differ on this point brother, you believe God planned and wanted to sacrifice His son from the very beginning, I believe God did not plan it and did not want to sacrifice His son but because of mans disobedience death entered into the world and God did that which He did not desire or plan.
Which scenario show forth the love of God brother, yours that state God planned disobedience and death so that He could send His son into death in order to save us.
Or God not wanting to send His son into death, but did it anyway, because man by disobedience entered into death God sent His son into death to save us.
For me there is no love shown in the plan that God wanted man dead just so He could save man( to much like a puppet on a string), but much love is shown in that because of mans disobedience God sent His son to enter into death to save man. Thus showing God responding to man out of love for man.
QuoteOf course God desired the sacrifice of Christ. He planned the whole thing. It was God's cup that the Son was drinking from. God knew that He was providing us the sacrificial lamb (our passover). I know and accept that I murdered Jesus Christ, but what comes along with that is having slain my passover lamb. Jesus showed it was not his own will for why he died but of His Father's will:
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Obviously, Jesus wants us to know that it was not his own will that wanted to die but that it was His Father's will. So if Jesus performs that which is not His will - it is no longer him but God in him that does such. This is just like it is no longer our will in us but Christ Jesus in us that puts down sin in our own body of flesh. It is not my will to do so but His.
Think of the opposite. If it was not God's Will for Jesus to die then something went contrary to God's will. Obviously it was God's will for Jesus to die that He did or else it would not happen. Nothing can prevent God's will from happening. So if we sin NOW, it is according to God's will that we are able to do such.
Paul that does NOT answer the question of Gods PLAN/WAY from the BEGINNING.
Did God plan out mans disobedience from the beginning or was God responding to mans disobedience?
I keep trying to get everyone to focus on the beginning but everyone keeps adding what happend AFTER Adam sinned thinking they are the same thing.
So I'll give you the scriptures I gave Bob and ask what you make of them.
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself
What are mans ways?
Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?
Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?
the creature was subjected to vanity..not of it's own will..
BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM THAT SUBJECTED IT
vanity=hollowness,egoism, pride
subjected[to] subjection=state of being subjected,or under
the power control or government of another.submissive
[which I take to clearly delineate SINS LAW IN OUR FLESH]
The Foolishness of God
Christ crucified
1 Cor 1;22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greek's look for
wisdom,but we preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED.a stumbling block
to jews and foolishness to gentiles,BUT TO THOSE WHOM GOD
HAS CALLED,BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS,CHRIST THE POWER
OF GOD,AND THE WISDOM OF GOD
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,and the
weakness of God is stronger than man's strength
well, here we have it,as far as I can see..CHRIST CRUCIFIED
IS THE WEAKNESS AND FOOLISHNESS OF GOD
....God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise,
God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong..
! Cor 2;5 so your faith might not rest on mens wisdom[Adam?]
but on GOD'S POWER
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom,a wisdom that has been
hidden and that GOD DESTINED FOR OUR GLORY BEFORE TIME
BEGAN
. NONE OF THE RULERS OF THIS AGE UNDERSTOOD IT
[those subjected to vanity?as rulers of this age?]
for IF they had, they would NOT have crucified the LORD of
Glory
:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME. :laughing7: Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on April 12, 2009, 07:11:22 AM
People can come to it in different ways. I felt I had to jetison the "free will" doctrine I was raised in as a child when I experienced a revelation of the absolute sovereignty of God. It even went so far as being overcome with the reality of God as Totality. His being the all in all overwhelmed me. Yet, He gave us wills. There's a will of the flesh rather independent of me that I refuse. The spirit lusts against the flesh (and vice versa.) I have been led of God to accept His desire for me to make decisions and commitments. I am supposed to exercise my will. I am not sovereign. I am a dependent aspect of His image.
"I will love thee, O LORD, my strength." (Ps 18:1, AV..."I passion You, O IEUE, my Steadfastness." CLV)
Sometimes God has moved me to one side, as it were, taking over my body. He took me over to see out of the back of my head someone approaching. He caused me to stand and turn, rebuking the devil. I had to finish the rebuke, tacking, "...in the name of Jesus" on the end. He has possessed me. Sometimes I am completely overcome by Him. This just is not operating according to my own will. Much about ourselves, our circumstances have nothing to do with any exercise of our own wills. Yet, we are to use our ability to close with a matter, to decide on a thing, to commit ourselves to a path of duty. God delights to meet us in that.
Disclaimer:
What was stated in the definition was not a reference to "free will" or to any said, doctrine. And having a will of our own or being able to make a choice, is not at the expense of his Sovereignty, nor does this subject God to our thoughts and ways. The choice to do as he pleases, is His - anything less is not Sovereign.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to Holiness."We seem to struggle with any other having power to interfere with our independence, regarding ourselves as autonomous, whereas, each denomination or congregation (an assembly of persons) is separate from the other.
However, He has a remedy for humanities freedom of choice, it is called "Reconciliation of all things." Absolutely, free from any separation or mixture - being ONE Body.
There will be no syncretism because the truth is, we are being set-free from the thoughts and ways of the world.
We seem to be in a period of testing and trial to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom – under the guidance of HIS SPIRIT.
"A period of probation; a time to be considerate or thoughtful by the Grace of God."
And the right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.
"Not my will, but yours be done." I see this as an active option, as opposed to a subjective impulse having no purpose.
peacemaker
Quote from: pneuma on April 12, 2009, 06:15:12 PMChrist sacrifice of Himself out of love is good. The sacrifice of Christ by the people is not good. One point finally down and we are in agreement.
Cool.
QuoteGod knows what is in the hearts of men Bob, and knew the disobedience of Pharaoh was already in his heart. And God weaved that disobedience into something good.
But Scott, that's not the reason given in scripture for God hardening pharoah's heart.
QuoteBut again when did these things happen Bob? Was it BEFORE Adam's disobedience or AFTER? This is what I am trying to get you to consider. AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are very close in our understanding.
What does Adam's disobedience have to do with how God deals with pharoah? And how do you purpose we look at what God was thinking beofre Adam sinned? There are a whole two chapters in the bible before Adam sinned.
QuoteYou say God planned for Adam to be disobedient, and I disagree, God planned for Adam to be obedient.
What does it even mean to plan for something you KNOW will not happen? Especially when you permit into your plan the very agents that will wreck your plan. There is no way I can make heads or tails of that thought.
QuoteAnd it is this aspect we should be concentrating on.
Again, there are only about two chapters in the bible prior to Adam's sin.
QuoteHere is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death. They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ. Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world. Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree? NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone. If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve. Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this. Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?
I agree with you here. If Adam were laying down his life for Eve as Christ did for all mankind, Adam would not have been faulted by God.
QuoteThus Gods plan for salvation and being made into His image and likeness was and has been always through obedience and not through disobedience.
I agree with that. There is no salvation or being conformed in His image by being disobedient. On the other hand Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered and He suffered them at the hands of disobedient people.
QuoteQuoteI don't know of any scripture that answers that question though.
Then why believe it brother?
Do you think it is possible that you cannot find any scriptures that answer that question because the scriptures actually say something else?
I didn't say I could not find any, I said I did not know of any (I had just thought of that idea while posting my previous reply and did not know of any scriptures off the top of my head).
QuoteI know your reasoning and if you used that reasoning AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are basically in agreement. But when you take that reasoning all the way back to the beginning and say that disobedience was always in God plan, that God wanted Adam to be disobedient to show forth true love you attribute to God mans disobedience.
1. No I do not say God WANTED man to be disobedient, I say God INTENDED man to be disobedient. If you can not see that differnce between those two you need only to consider that (a) God hardened pharoah's heart so he would not obey (b) God did not approve of pharoah's disobedience.... and (a) God told Satan he could harm Job (b) God did not approve of Satan harming Job... and (a) God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh (b) God did not approve of the messengers of Satan... It makes no difference whether these are before or after Adam sinned -- they still show God INTENDING something he did not APPROVE of.
2. I attribute man's weakness and corruptibility to God but I do not blame God. I try to be thankful that God made me thus. I trust God knows what He is doing.
QuoteProverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself
What are mans ways?
Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?
Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?
Those verses show that God's ways (the way God acts) are righteous leading to life and man's ways (the way man acts) are sinful and leading to death.
I have been showing you examples of God's ways and you keep saying "that's AFTER Adam sinned" which is a way to discount them as something less than God's primary ways.
Here is another example of God's ways. A corn of wheat must die in order to bear fruit.
- John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal
So just maybe Christ had to die from the beginning in order to bear fruit after His kind (i.e. His image). After all, from Genesis 1 (before Adam sinned) we had the physical example of corn yielding seed to reproduce it's kind.
QuoteQuoteGod approved of His plan for man to be disobedient, but God did not approve man's disobedience. Those two are not one and the same. There are two hearts & intentions going on there. God's and man's. God approved of what He was doing, not of what man was doing.
And again I ask for scripture that states where God says He approves of disobedience in any fashion, whether it be His plan or any other point.
Scott, I just said (bolded above) that God did not approve of man's disobedience so I do not need to find a scripture to prove something I don't believe. What I said was that God approves of His
plans which included disobedience. I have already given examples of God's plans that included disobedience (e.g. God hardened pharoah's heart) and obviously God approves of His own plans.
QuoteAlso you are here again trying to let the mob boss off the hook and lay the blame on the hitman.
No, God and Satan were not doing anything remotely like each other towards Job. God was not the "mob bos" and Satan was not the "hit man" even though God told Satan to go ahead.
QuoteIf God planned for man to be disobedient then God is responsible for every disobedient thing that comes from the heart of man.
God planned for pharoah to be disobedient. There's no if's about it. So you must either believe that God is responsible for everything that came from pharoah's heart or you do not believe that God planned for him to be disobedient.
QuoteTherefore how can God disapprove of what man does through disobedience when disobedience was God's plan?
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
The answer is given in verses 21 & 22.
QuoteYou want to believe they are two separate things Bob but ultimately the buck has to stop with God.
They absolutely are two separate things because there are two separate minds & wills making choices: God's and man's. The buck stops at God regarding what God chooses to do according to His will. The buck stops at man regarding what man chooses to do according to his will.
Jesus told Judas to GO DO what he was going to do. So Jesus intended for Judas to go do it. Does that mean Jesus approved of what Judas was about to do? Of course not. Does that mean Jesus was the mob boss and Judas' was the hitman? Does that mean the buck stops with Jesus and not Judas?
QuoteAn example from scripture: God approved of His plan to try Job. God approved of His plan to tell Satan to go and harm Job. But God did not approve of Satan's heart in doing so.
QuoteTwo things here Bob, first, this was AFTER Adam's disobedience not BEFORE. And whether you can see it or not that makes a difference.
No, I don't see how Adam's
disobedience becomes a reason for God to take an
obedient man like Job and send "evil incarnate" after him. If you think you see how Adam's sin makes a difference for obedient Job then please explain it.
What I see is a pattern of God trying the faith of the obedient people at the hands of the disobedient people. I see it being a requirement to enter the kingdom of God. Now please tell me how or why the actions of the disobedient managed to create a requirement upon the obedient to suffer and endure their evil.
QuoteThe second thing is Job is a hard book to understand for God also says to satan "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause". This would indicate that God did not plan to try Job, but did so at the instigation of satan.
The book of Job is hard to accept, but the basic premise is not hard to understand. God took a righteous and obedient man and tried his faith with evil. Those are God's ways Scott. If it were only the book of Job I'd maybe wonder about it. But it's a story repeated throughout scripture.
Why would Satan moving God against Job indicate God did not plan it? That is a statement about what Satan was trying to do, not a statement about what Satan was succeeding in doing. Satan is evil. Satan was up to evil. God can not be tempted by evil.
QuoteBecause of mans disobedience death entered the world, the only way God could then save his children was to send His son into death to save them out of it.
Unless God had made Adam incorruptible. Then there would have been no problem. It seems then that God's plan was to make man corruptible and later incorruptible. First the natural man, then the spiritual man.
QuoteSo yes, if I had billions of sons in death I would ask my oldest son to enter into death to save them, but that does not mean I wanted to send my oldest son into death.
And what if the only way to fashion Sons in God's image was to have them overcome evil with good by seeing and following Christ
QuoteOur scenarios differ on this point brother, you believe God planned and wanted to sacrifice His son from the very beginning...
I thought we got past the issue of God wanting to sacrifice Christ. I do not say God wanted to sacrifice His Son any more than you do. I do say that God wanted from the beginning for His Son to lay down His life for us.
QuoteWhich scenario show forth the love of God brother...
Only in my scenario is the love of God on display as part of God's plan. The Word was made flesh and we beheld His glory. When Christ gave up His life on the cross, Christ called that His glory.
- John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
<br>
- John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
<br>
- John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world
So what you are saying Scott, is that God never intended to show us His glory.
Quote...yours that state God planned disobedience and death so that He could send His son into death in order to save us.
To create us in His image which also included saving us from sin.
QuoteOr God not wanting to send His son into death, but did it anyway, because man by disobedience entered into death God sent His son into death to save us.
Again, I don't believe God wanted to send His Son to die for it's own sake.
QuoteFor me there is no love shown in the plan that God wanted man dead just so He could save man( to much like a puppet on a string)...
But that's not what I believe.
Quote...but much love is shown in that because of mans disobedience God sent His son to enter into death to save man. Thus showing God responding to man out of love for man.
I agree with that reason as well.
myQuote
God knows what is in the hearts of men Bob, and knew the disobedience of Pharaoh was already in his heart. And God weaved that disobedience into something good.QuoteBut Scott, that's not the reason given in scripture for God hardening pharoah's heart.
I believe that the scriptures do bare this out Bob, as God knows the intent of all men's hearts and weaves within that frame. Does God not have foreknowledge of all these things? Therefore, did God not know that Pharaoh would harden his heart and; therefore, weaved that disobedience into something good?
QuoteWhat does Adam's disobedience have to do with how God deals with pharoah? And how do you purpose we look at what God was thinking beofre Adam sinned? There are a whole two chapters in the bible before Adam sinned.
Because after Adams disobedience God deals with sons of disobedience, but before Adam was disobedient God dealt with man as sons of God. We have more than the two chapters Bob, we have Gods character, Gods nature, Gods love, Gods ways etc. That must be considered. Thus we can glean that obedience is Gods way from the very beginning.
myQuote
You say God planned for Adam to be disobedient, and I disagree, God planned for Adam to be obedient.QuoteWhat does it even mean to plan for something you KNOW will not happen? Especially when you permit into your plan the very agents that will wreck your plan. There is no way I can make heads or tails of that thought.
Freedom of choice bro, just because God knew before hand that Adam would be disobedient does not mean God planned for man to be disobedient. If God planned for man to be disobedient then He has absolutely no right to punish man for their disobedience because He would then be the one responsible for man's disobedience.
Question: is Gods ways/plans (or whatever else word you want to use) for man obedience? If you answer yes to that question I don't see how you can believe that Gods ways/plans would lead through disobedience unto obedience.
myQuote
Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death. They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ. Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world. Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree? NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone. If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve. Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this. Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?QuoteI agree with you here. If Adam were laying down his life for Eve as Christ did for all mankind, Adam would not have been faulted by God.
I'll come back to this point.
myQuote
Thus Gods plan for salvation and being made into His image and likeness was and has been always through obedience and not through disobedience.I agree with that. There is no salvation or being conformed in His image by being disobedient. On the other hand Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered and He suffered them at the hands of disobedient people.
I don't believe Christ learned obedience to the Father by suffering from the hands of disobedient men. His suffering came in the same as ours is to come in via the laying down of our own lives that the Father might live through us. Sure He suffered at the hand of disobedient men, but that suffering was NOT how He learned obedience to the Father.
myQuote
I know your reasoning and if you used that reasoning AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are basically in agreement. But when you take that reasoning all the way back to the beginning and say that disobedience was always in God plan, that God wanted Adam to be disobedient to show forth true love you attribute to God mans disobedience.Quote1. No I do not say God WANTED man to be disobedient, I say God INTENDED man to be disobedient.
in•tend•ed
1) Envisioned
aimed at or designed for somebody or something• our intended destination
2) Planned
planned for the future • an intended visit
3) Deliberate
said or done deliberately • an intended insult
No matter how you look at it Bob you are saying God planned and designed for mans disobedience.
QuoteIf you can not see that differnce between those two you need only to consider that (a) God hardened pharoah's heart so he would not obey
God by foreknowledge knows what man will do correct? Then how do you know that God did not know that Pharaoh would harden his heart and use that foreknowledge to weave good out of it?
Quote(b) God did not approve of pharoah's disobedience.... and
The carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. Thus Pharaoh was not subject to Gods commandment to let His people go.
Quote(a) God told Satan he could harm Job (b) God did not approve of Satan harming Job... and
although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".
Does not sound like God told Satan He could harm Job to me.
Quote(a) God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh (b) God did not approve of the messengers of Satan... It makes no difference whether these are before or after Adam sinned -- they still show God INTENDING something he did not APPROVE of.
Do you know what the messenger of satan is? Unless we know what it is than we cannot make any comparisons from it. The law is satan to us, and it is this to which Paul delivered one to the destruction of the flesh. IMO the law is the messenger that God sent to Paul so that Paul would not be puffed up in the FLESH by the revelations given to him. God intended this and approved of it, for the law is ordained unto immortal life, by the destruction of the life of the flesh.
Quote2. I attribute man's weakness and corruptibility to God but I do not blame God. I try to be thankful that God made me thus. I trust God knows what He is doing.
While Jesus said the Devil sowed the tares among the wheat Bob and I trust He knows what He was talking about.
mQuote
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself
What are mans ways?Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?
Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?QuoteThose verses show that God's ways (the way God acts) are righteous leading to life and man's ways (the way man acts) are sinful and leading to death.
Bob it is MORE than the way God and man act, although that is also a part of it.
Ezekiel 18:25-29
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezekiel 33:17-20
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
God's ways are all EQUAL, it is mans ways that are unequal and God says He will judge everyone after their own ways.
By your belief bro you are making the ways of God unequal for you find in the ways of God disobedience. God neither planned nor intended disobedience for disobedience is the WAYS of man. I don't know how much planner I can make this Bob, scripture will have to suffice.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
QuoteI have been showing you examples of God's ways and you keep saying "that's AFTER Adam sinned" which is a way to discount them as something less than God's primary ways.
And I believe your are misapprehending what God is showing in those scriptures. I have shown you scripture that says things contrary to what you are seeing. We both probably agree that scripture does not contradict each other; therefore, it is our understanding of what the scriptures are saying that makes the contradiction. We have both given scripture, but the scripture I have given is very plainly spoken whereas the scriptures you have given are open to interpretation.
You have given scripture that says God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh to show that God plans these things but does not approve of what He planned, but those scriptures do NOT say God PLANNED it that way, so those scriptures are open to interpretation, and I already gave you how I see it. On the other hand I have given scripture that does not require interpretation. These scriptures are very plain.
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Do you see these scriptures different then I do? Or are they very plainly understood? And if you see them differently please show why.
QuoteHere is another example of God's ways. A corn of wheat must die in order to bear fruit.
• John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal
So just maybe Christ had to die from the beginning in order to bear fruit after His kind (i.e. His image). After all, from Genesis 1 (before Adam sinned) we had the physical example of corn yielding seed to reproduce it's kind.
Now I'll take you back to the point I said I would go back to.
I said, and you agreed with.
Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death. They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ. Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world. Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree? NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone. If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve. Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this. Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?True death to the saving of the soul is giving up ones soul in order to save it. This is how the corn of wheat is to die that it might bare much fruit. It does NOT mean one has to enter into disobedience in order to die to bare much fruit. That thought is totally contrary to scripture.
Also Jesus NEVER died from the foundation of the old world, but rather from the foundation of the new world. He is not only our FOUNDATION stone but also the cap stone of the FOUNDATION.
QuoteScott, I just said (bolded above) that God did not approve of man's disobedience so I do not need to find a scripture to prove something I don't believe.
What I said was that God approves of His plans which included disobedience. I have already given examples of God's plans that included disobedience (e.g. God hardened pharoah's heart) and obviously God approves of His own plans.
Yes but you also have said God planned it all out so that man would be disobedient. Therefore God either planned it all out and disapproves of a part of His plan (mans disobedience) or He did not plan mans disobedience.
You cannot say God planned for man to be disobedient but did not approve of mans disobedience without saying God disapproves of a part of His plan. What you are trying to do is take God of the hook for mans disobedience even though you believe God planned for man to be disobedient. What you are saying is God plans mans ways and directs mans steps, but the scriptures say man plans his own ways but God directs his step. BIG DIFFERENCE bro.
myQuote
Also you are here again trying to let the mob boss off the hook and lay the blame on the hitman.QuoteNo, God and Satan were not doing anything remotely like each other towards Job. God was not the "mob bos" and Satan was not the "hit man" even though God told Satan to go ahead.
But if God plan for satan to do all that satan did, satan is a tool that God used. Therefore, God is responsible for the tools in His hands.
Thus letting the mob boss of the hook and blaming the hit man.
You can't have it both ways bro, either God planned it all out or He did not, and if He planned it all out then He is responsible for every aspect of that plan.
myQuote
If God planned for man to be disobedient then God is responsible for every disobedient thing that comes from the heart of man.QuoteGod planned for pharoah to be disobedient. There's no if's about it. So you must either believe that God is responsible for everything that came from pharoah's heart or you do not believe that God planned for him to be disobedient.
I don't believe God planned for Pharaoh to be disobedient, Pharaohs disobedience was already in his heart because of the disobedience of Adam. God had foreknowledge of Pharaoh hardening his heart and weaved it into good.
QuoteThou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
The answer is given in verses 21 & 22.
Bob those are questions NOT statements; they are asking who has resisted Gods will?
According to your understanding the answer must be no one, but scripture bare out the total opposite of that thought, for they show that the disobedient have resisted His will.
It is NOT God will that any should perish, yet we know that people perish because of disobedience. Thus they have resisted the will of God.
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Therefore we can see that the disobedient have resisted God's will and God molds the clay accordingly. God does not mar the clay brother the clay mars itself. Reread my opening post on this thread.
myQuote
You want to believe they are two separate things Bob but ultimately the buck has to stop with God.QuoteThey absolutely are two separate things because there are two separate minds & wills making choices: God's and man's. The buck stops at God regarding what God chooses to do according to His will. The buck stops at man regarding what man chooses to do according to his will.
That more along my reasoning then yours Bob. I lay the blame of disobedience on man and although you say here you do to your belief that God intended mans disobedience all along lays the blame squarely on God. Does not matter how you rephrase it Bob it comes down to the same conclusion, the buck stops with God in your view.
QuoteJesus told Judas to GO DO what he was going to do. So Jesus intended for Judas to go do it. Does that mean Jesus approved of what Judas was about to do? Of course not. Does that mean Jesus was the mob boss and Judas' was the hitman? Does that mean the buck stops with Jesus and not Judas?
Again that is more along my lines of reasoning then your own Bob.
But Jesus did not intend Judas to do it, Jesus Knew Judas was going to do it the same way God knew Adam would disobey, but having this foreknowledge of what would take place and intending or planning it to take place are very different.
QuoteThe book of Job is hard to accept, but the basic premise is not hard to understand. God took a righteous and obedient man and tried his faith with evil. Those are God's ways Scott. If it were only the book of Job I'd maybe wonder about it. But it's a story repeated throughout scripture.
No it's not hard to accept Bob it's hard to understand, read the advice Jobs friend gave him and tell me that advice was wrong, especially when the new testament backs up the advise Jobs friends gave him.
Example:
Job 5:17
17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Hebrews 12:5
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
What did Jobs friends say any different than the writer of Hebrews?
NOTHING
So than was Jobs trials the chastening of the Lord?
Or did Jobs trial come from satan?
If Jobs trial were the chastening of the Lord than Jobs friends spoke what was true, yet later the scriptures state Jobs friends spoke NOT that which was true; therefore, what happened to Job CANNOT be the chastening of the Lord as you believe it is Bob.
And yes the scriptures repeat this story over and over and people like Jobs friends still are attributing to God that which came from satan by saying all these evils are the chastening of the Lord.
Bob this scripture really some up what we are discussing.
Septuagint
Isaiah 54
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
God says He created us NOT for ruin, yet you believe that He did create us for ruin and that He even planned it out that way.
God bless
Quote from: Cardinal on April 12, 2009, 07:57:39 PM
:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME. :laughing7: Blessings....
Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
Quote from: pneuma on April 25, 2009, 11:34:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 12, 2009, 07:57:39 PM
:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME. :laughing7: Blessings....
Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
I think it can be said of Christ that He both died for us before the foundation of the world and while we were yet sinners. Both are true. God is the God of Israel and the God of all at the same time. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
cp
I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.
God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.
cp
Pneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?
God is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 26, 2009, 04:33:01 AM
I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.
God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.
cp
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was
prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou
wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore
choose life, that both thou and thy
seed may live:
Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
The order here is interesting:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when
they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but
became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1. knew God
2. became vain in their imaginations (chose death)
3. heart darkened/hardened.
Rom 1:24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who
changed the truth of God
into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
choose LIFE
Adam was not deceived; and he chose death. Chose disobedience.
Eve, on the other hand was deceived. Did she have "life and death" set before her? Or was she blinded though deception??
Was life and death set before her, with clarity of mind for choice of "life and death"?
Are we Eve's?? or Adam's??
Quote from: Zeek on April 26, 2009, 08:07:23 AM
Are we Eve's?? or Adam's??
Most certainly.......Yes!!!
Quote from: claypot on April 26, 2009, 04:09:37 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 26, 2009, 08:07:23 AM
Are we Eve's?? or Adam's??
Most certainly.......Yes!!!
Casting down imaginations, and every thought/weapon that forms against me; for we HAVE the MIND of CHRIST.
By faith, we decree the TRUTH and are what we decree.
I and the Father are one. So be it.
Quote from: Zeek on April 26, 2009, 04:42:32 PM
Quote from: claypot on April 26, 2009, 04:09:37 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 26, 2009, 08:07:23 AM
Are we Eve's?? or Adam's??
Most certainly.......Yes!!!
Casting down imaginations, and every thought/weapon that forms against me; for we HAVE the MIND of CHRIST.
By faith, we decree the TRUTH and are what we decree. I and the Father are one. So be it.
The mind of Christ is unimaginable to me. I suppose it is something one can have without understanding it. To me the mind of Christ is utter contentment.
cp
QuoteI don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.
God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.
Hi Clay, yes we start out as mortal but mortal does not = sinfull.
There is nothing wrong with our mortal bodies except they can be corrupted. That does not mean our mortal bodies are marred vessels but that our mortal bodies can become marred.
Jesus said that God planted GOOD seed in the ground and the Devil came along and sowed tares among the wheat. Those tare play on our mortality and changed our lust from that which was good and was to be used in accordance to the lust of the spirit to lust which was bad in accordance to the flesh.
The tares were sown of the Devil brother not sown of God.
Tare look just like wheat but have no LIFE in them; thus, can we not understand that it is the tares that are the sons of disobedience which Adam became after eating of the tree he was not suppose to eat of. Is this not why Jesus said of some that their father was the devil?
QuotePneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?
Read the story of Pharaoh bro and you will see it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
So do the scriptures contradict each other?
I don't believe so, God knowing Pharaoh would harden his heart gave Pharaoh over to his own heart's desire. Just as He has done throughout history. People desired one thing and God desired the people to do another. So when people refused Gods will for them God gives them over to their own desires which ultimately leads to death.
QuoteGod is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.
Yes He is making us in His image and likeness, and that image and likeness ONLY COMES BY WAY OF OBEDIENCE. It does NOT come by way of disobedience unto obedience.
Quote from: pneuma on April 25, 2009, 11:34:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 12, 2009, 07:57:39 PM
:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME. :laughing7: Blessings....
Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
:cloud9: Thanks for the tip, pneuma...... :thumbsup: I've been overwhelmed here of late and therefore short on time, but hopefully things will level out again soon........Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: pneuma on April 25, 2009, 11:34:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 12, 2009, 07:57:39 PM
:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME. :laughing7: Blessings....
Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
:cloud9: Thanks for the tip, pneuma...... :thumbsup: I've been overwhelmed here of late and therefore short on time, but hopefully things will level out again soon........Blessings....
As I understand, in essence, because it was predetermined to be, Jesus
had [the same as] died for us before the foundation of the world, just as scripture says (Is, was, will be). Same as done. However, His
literal, physical death occurred
while we were sinners. Just as, from Adam and Eve, Jesus was the Savior. But only when he physically died on the cross and rose again, did the "believe in your heart God raised Him, confess with your mouth age of grace" come in.
:cloud9: That has always been my understanding too, Jab.....Everything that was created (a little lower than) was created thru Him, His Spirit poured out like a drink offering. So in that sense, He "died" to create the natural visible realm. The death on the cross was the visible representation of what had already happened in the beginning. My :2c: Blessings...
Wow, a step further than I had seen Card..very good. :thumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on April 26, 2009, 07:19:26 PM
QuoteI don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.
God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.
Hi Clay, yes we start out as mortal but mortal does not = sinfull.
There is nothing wrong with our mortal bodies except they can be corrupted. That does not mean our mortal bodies are marred vessels but that our mortal bodies can become marred.
Jesus said that God planted GOOD seed in the ground and the Devil came along and sowed tares among the wheat. Those tare play on our mortality and changed our lust from that which was good and was to be used in accordance to the lust of the spirit to lust which was bad in accordance to the flesh.
The tares were sown of the Devil brother not sown of God.
Tare look just like wheat but have no LIFE in them; thus, can we not understand that it is the tares that are the sons of disobedience which Adam became after eating of the tree he was not suppose to eat of. Is this not why Jesus said of some that their father was the devil?
QuotePneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?
Read the story of Pharaoh bro and you will see it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
So do the scriptures contradict each other?
I don't believe so, God knowing Pharaoh would harden his heart gave Pharaoh over to his own heart's desire. Just as He has done throughout history. People desired one thing and God desired the people to do another. So when people refused Gods will for them God gives them over to their own desires which ultimately leads to death.
QuoteGod is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.
Yes He is making us in His image and likeness, and that image and likeness ONLY COMES BY WAY OF OBEDIENCE. It does NOT come by way of disobedience unto obedience.
Doesn't it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?
Doesn't it say in Jeremiah that God made a marred pot first?
I agree with you and Jesus that God planted good seed in the ground for Christ (good seed) lights every man (ground) that comes into being. The enemy is also allowed by God to enter the garden (mind of people) and yes, it is the carnal mind that leads people away from God, not technically God Himself, but God knows who runs the show.
I did not make myself, noway, nohow. I am a screwup for sure but I did not make myself nor did I choose to be a screwup of my own free will. If I had a free will and knew what I know now, which is not much, I would choose to be a flawless person.
I started out corruptable and will end up incorruptable. I start out with a carnal mind and will end up with the mind of Christ. I do not reap what I sow, contrary to Scripture, I reap far more good than the evil I sowed, praise be to God.
Obedience is a given Brother. I was made with strong inclination to be disobedient and the enemy was allowed to come into my mind to encourage disobedience even further and I disobeyed. God has sent the Perfect One to come into my mind (garden) jn3.16 to create an atmosphere that guarentees obedience to spring forth from my essence. Obedience is essential, I agree.
cp
Who is this??
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Sounds like talking about a man, who is this man represent??
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Being turned over to "strong delusion" is "after" not receiving the truth, which is disobedience.
Similar to Romans 1 verses earlier posted,
still seems to me; man has a choice first; then if refused the TRUTH; then heart hardened.
or at least to those "not deceived" initially (ie: Adam).
QuoteAs I understand, in essence, because it was predetermined to be, Jesus had [the same as] died for us before the foundation of the world, just as scripture says (Is, was, will be). Same as done. However, His literal, physical death occurred while we were sinners. Just as, from Adam and Eve, Jesus was the Savior. But only when he physically died on the cross and rose again, did the "believe in your heart God raised Him, confess with your mouth age of grace" come in.
Hi Jab, the is, was, will be does concern Christ, but it does not concern everything that happened to Him. For if is, was ,will be concerns His death on the cross than Christ WAS slain, IS slain, and WILL BE slain, which means Christ has to be slain AGAIN in the future.
There is a New World correct?
When did this New World start?
Who is the foundation of this New World?
Who was the foundation of the Old World that is to be destroyed?
What does scripture mean when it say Christ was slain in these LAST TIME for us?
Jab think on some of these things brother, I know new concepts are sometimes hard to except, when I first started to see this I also questioned it, but the more I dwelt on it the more I came to realise the Christ is the FOUNDATION of ALL THINGS NEW and that FOUNDATION started upon His resurrection from death.
Has He been resurrected? Surely, thus the foundation of the New World has been established.
QuoteDoesn't it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?
Clay you did not read the scriptures concerning Pharaoh.
If you do you will see that the scriptures state Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
That's why I asked do the scriptures than contradict each other?
I don't believe so.
So in what manner did God harden Pharaohs heart?
For me the answer lies in the commandments themselves. When God commands us to do something and we refuse and disobey His commandment we harden our heart towards God. So what does God do? He repeats His commandment, which further hardens our heart because we do not want this man to rule over us.
So in what manner did God harden Pharaohs heart?
By giving the commandment to obey His voice.
God does nothing contrary to His nature which is LOVE and can only deal with man out of LOVE. To harden man heart in the manner you are looking at it bro is contrary to His nature.
Tell me bro how did God blind the eyes of people? Did He do it by shadow and lies? Or did He blind them by TRUTH?
It is LIGHT that blinds the eyes brother not darkness.
In the same manner God hardened Pharaohs heart with the commandment to obey his voice. The commandment is ordained unto life, but when rejected death follows just as God warned.
QuoteDoesn't it say in Jeremiah that God made a marred pot first?
Already covered this in my opening post bro, please reread it.
QuoteI agree with you and Jesus that God planted good seed in the ground for Christ (good seed) lights every man (ground) that comes into being. The enemy is also allowed by God to enter the garden (mind of people) and yes, it is the carnal mind that leads people away from God, not technically God Himself, but God knows who runs the show.
I did not make myself, noway, nohow. I am a screwup for sure but I did not make myself nor did I choose to be a screwup of my own free will. If I had a free will and knew what I know now, which is not much, I would choose to be a flawless person.
I agree we are not responsible for the state we were born in, Adam by carnal knowledge with satan is. God made man good, satan corrupted man NOT GOD.
Example:
Hell was prepared for satan and his angels.
Hell is the place of the dead.
This world is hell.
How did we enter into this hell?
By carnal knowledge with satan through disobedience.
What did God warn Adam would happen if Adam ate from the tree?
Death.
Where do we find death?
In this world.
Who to blame for man entering into death?
Adam through carnal knowledge with satan.
Jesus said He was NOT of this world, why?
Because death has nothing in Him and could not hold Him.
Don't blame God for all the crap in this world, as this world is NOT His world.
QuoteI started out corruptable and will end up incorruptable. I start out with a carnal mind and will end up with the mind of Christ. I do not reap what I sow, contrary to Scripture, I reap far more good than the evil I sowed, praise be to God.
I disagree bro we ALL reap what we sow, your life does NOT contradict scripture.
Reaping what we sow works both ways brother, if we sow life we also reap life.
The problem with man is that he sows both good and evil, but that which is sown in love/good covers a multitude of sin.
QuoteObedience is a given Brother. I was made with strong inclination to be disobedient and the enemy was allowed to come into my mind to encourage disobedience even further and I disobeyed. God has sent the Perfect One to come into my mind (garden) jn3.16 to create an atmosphere that guarentees obedience to spring forth from my essence. Obedience is essential, I agree.
No bro you were NOT made with a strong inclination to be disobedient. Man from the time he is born has a strong inclination to be obedient to their parents. But satan comes along and plants tares in man which incline man to be disobedient to the ones in authority over them. We learn disobedience Clay but we are born obedient.
Are the powers that cause disobedience stronger (more persuasive) than the powers that cause obedience? Is this why Adam sinned?
God made man perfect according to His design. I think this perfect design in the beginning is not the perfect design we see at the end.
I do not blame God for any crap but I do give Him credit for all things.
Pneuma, you believe we reap what we sow and I do too on one level. Do you think the grace we reap is equal to what we sow?
'Hell' for me is not understanding myself relationally to God and your words, Pneuma (and others here), really help me climb a bit more out of that 'hell' towards the light of Heaven. I thank you for your patient words to me Brother.
cp
I recommend for anyone who wants to understand God's plan for us to read this excerpt from the NOBLE BEREAN by Thomas Kissinger. It is Biblically based and doesn't jump through a bunch of hoops trying to explain/explain away scripture that "doesn't make sense to us"... IMO, it's an excellent summary and explanation of UR and God's purposes, and will help keep you from being "blown about by every wind of doctrine". http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/
"Ephesians 3:11 (Young's Literal Translation) states..."according to a
purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord..."
In order to understand God, our existence, and the destiny of the human
race, it is imperative that we delve into the purpose of God. We must
first be enlightened to the fact that God has a purpose, and then we
must see that His purpose is A PURPOSE OF THE AGES!
The key to answering these questions is to be found in an understanding of what
the Bible refers to as the fall of man, the Supreme Sacrifice of the Lord
Jesus Christ (His death, burial, and resurrection), and the order that is
spoken of in 1st Corinthians 15:22-23, which states..."For as in Adam
all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN
HIS OWN ORDER..."
God's purpose of the ages is actually very simple, but has been greatly
complicated by the ideas of religious men and women. After one
comes to an understanding of the fall, the Sacrifice, and the order,
God's purpose of the ages becomes so elementary that a wee child is
able to understand it. So...Let us dig into and uncover God's purpose
of the ages.
THE FALL
Romans 8:19 (The New Testament In Modern Speech) states..."For
the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its
own choice, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it)." WOW!
Oh well...So much for "free [edit]". As we can clearly see, GOD WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FALL OF MAN! I know that some of you
who are reading this right now are shouting...NO!...That is not correct!
Nevertheless, it is the truth. Genesis 1:26-27 (King James Version)
states..."Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..." So God
created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him;
male and female created He them. It is important for us to stop here
for a moment and meditate on what was just said. Did you happen to
notice that God created man in His own image, and that He created
him (man) male and female? Most casual readers of the Bible never
catch what was just said. Here is what must be taken into account: God
created man (the human race) in the spirit realm first before He placed
him (beginning with Adam) into the earth realm. Notice that Adam
was later formed of the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It was at this
time that Adam became a living soul. Remember...God breathed into
the nostrils of Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. In
essence, the Adam of Genesis 1:26 was lowered into the soulish realm
and became the Adam of Genesis 2:7. THIS IS THE FALL!!! The act
of Adam's disobedience in his partaking of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil (his carnal mind) was just a result of being lowered
(his subjection to failure and unreality) into the soulish realm by God.
Many will ask the question...How can you say these things about God?
The answer is simple. This is what the Bible actually teaches about the
fall of man. I am simply repeating what the Bible states. Others would
ask...Why would God do this to the human race?
Well...Let us go back to Romans 8:19-22. It tells us that God did this
in hope, knowing beforehand that all those who were subjected to this
vanity would be delivered from their bondage by the ministry and
manifestation of the sons of God. In essence, God had predetermined
to subject all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all through
the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 11:32). The cross of the
Lord Jesus Christ was not an afterthought of God, but it was the very
foundation and focal point of His entire purpose of the ages. Revelation
13:8 as well as 1st Peter 1:20 tell us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world! This tells us that everything was built
on the slain Lamb (Jesus Christ). God wanted the world to see Him as
their Savior. The only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior. So...God did just that, for we know that
all have sinned (missed the mark of God's nature) and come short of
the glory of God (Romans 3:23). This can also be seen by applying the
story of Job to the human race. Job was minding his own business when
God asked Satan...Have you considered My servant Job? The rest of the
story shows us that it was God Who subjected Job to everything that he
went through. It tells us in Job 42:11 that it was the Lord Who was the
One Who brought evil upon Job. AMAZING! Have you ever thought
about that? Why did the Lord do this to Job? Our answer is to be found
in Job 42:5 and 42:12. These verses tell us that Job had only heard of the
Lord, but was now (because of everything that he went through) able to
see (understand) the Lord. As well, verse 12 tells us that Job's latter end
was more blessed than his beginning. And so shall it be with the human
race. We shall all be able to see (understand) the Lord and our latter
end shall be more blessed than our beginning as a result of having been
subjected to the vanity that God has placed us in. What an AMAZING
GOD that we serve!
THE SACRIFICE
It is now necessary to build upon our understanding of the fall of man by
taking the next step, which step will bring us to a proper understanding
of the Supreme Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will dissect why
He had to die, which also tells us why He died, and we will also bring out
what it truly is that His death has saved us from. In order to point out
the true meaning of the cross of Christ, we must first expose the false
teaching of Evangelical Christianity, which states that Jesus died on the
cross to save us from eternal torture in hell. THIS IS NOT CORRECT!
(As well, the hell of Evangelical Christianity is not the hell of the Bible.
There is a difference, but that is another topic for another writing.)
So...Why did Jesus have to die? It is actually very simple. Think of it
like this...The first Adam was disobedient, he sinned, and he died. The
last Adam (Jesus Christ) was obedient, He never sinned, and He died.
However, not only did He die, but HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! So...
We can now see that Jesus had to die to reverse the curse of Adam upon
the human race. And so He did! Now...This leads us into our next two
points, which speak of why He died and what His death saves us from.
In simple terms, Jesus died to save us. The question is though, what has
He saved us from? Our answer is to be found in Romans 6:23, which
states..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord." Our next question should be...What is
sin and death? The word "sin" means to miss the mark of God's nature
and character and the word "death" speaks of the carnal mind, for the
apostle Paul said that to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). After
having stated these things, we are now able to see that JESUS DIED
TO SAVE US FROM A CONDITION, NOT A LOCATION! It is also
vital that we understand that salvation is a process, and that we are
being saved spirit, soul, and body (1st Thessalonians 5:23). This is also
referred to as justification, sanctification, and glorification. This same
thing can also be seen in type and shadow in the Old Testament in the
three feasts of Israel, which were: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.
In addition to all of this (and this is probably the most important point),
JESUS DIED TO MANIFEST THE LOVE OF GOD (1ST JOHN 4:9)!
Remember...Jesus told His disciples..."Greater love has no man than
this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." ....an excerpt
from the writings of A. P. Adams. "The final outcome of the atoning scheme is not a partial success,
but a perfect, absolute, and universal triumph!" -end quote- (The
Atonement, A. P. Adams)
THE ORDER
The last aspect that we will consider concerning God's purpose of the
ages is what we will refer to as "the order". Many of God's people are
not able to grasp this last point, but it is one of the keys that unlocks
the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. Without an understanding of
the order in which the human race is being brought to God through
the cross of Christ, we are doomed to believe that God has all but lost
the vast majority of the human race to eternal torments. As was stated
earlier, THIS IS NOT CORRECT! Remember...1st Corinthians 15:22-
23 says..."For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER." Many would ask...
How is this possible? Here is the answer: The Bible has three different
categories of Scripture. There are Scriptures that speak of the remnant
(first-fruits), the nations, and all people and all things (the world).
These Scriptures must not be taken out of context and must be rightly
divided! When we look closely at the Scriptures, we will see Scriptures
that speak of a few being saved, all nations being saved, and finally,
all people and all things being reconciled to God through the blood
of the cross of Christ (Colossians 1:20). Is this a contradiction? NO!
It is simply God's purpose of the ages. He has foreordained to save a
remnant (first-fruits company) in this age, the nations in the coming
age, and every other person and thing in the final age (the age of the
ages / the dispensation of the fullness of times). These truths can be
understood by studying the feasts of Israel, which speak of the barley
harvest (Passover / the remnant), the wheat harvest (Pentecost / the
nations), and the grape harvest (Tabernacles / the unbelievers). THE
FEASTS PROVIDE A KEY THAT UNLOCKS THE DOOR TO AN
UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S PURPOSE OF THE AGES!
If we fail to see the order of God's great harvest, then we will fail to
see the salvation of all men. It is actually so simple that it becomes
hidden to the proud, but God is merciful and ever ready to remove
the blindness that is caused by listening to our carnal minds and by
believing the lies of religion. Many think that God's purpose will come
to a close at the end of this age. OH HOW WE HAVE MISSED AND
NOT DISCERNED THE PURPOSE OF OUR GOD! The first-fruits (the
elect) is not the end of the harvest, BUT JUST THE BEGINNING. The
first-fruits company will be used by God in the ages to come to gather
in the remainder of the harvest. Please remember...This is only made
possible because of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus
Christ. The only reason there shall be a manifestation of the sons of
God is because there was a manifestation of the Son of God. OH HOW
GLORIOUS IT WILL BE. I do not have the vocabulary at this present
time to proclaim just how marvelous it will be. We do know that the
apostle Paul said that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in this first-fruits
company. He referred to it as the MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS
OF GOD! The church can say it isn't so. They can laugh in light of what
has been stated in this teaching, but it will not stop God from going after
the full amount of His purchased possession. He has paid for the human
race through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ, and mark these
words...HE SHALL BE SATISFIED! HE SHALL GET EVERYTHING
THAT HE HAS PAID FOR! HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALMIGHTY GOD!
HE CANNOT FAIL! HE WILL NOT FAIL! HE IS THE SAVIOR OF
THE WORLD!!!
Romans 11:36..."For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are ALL
THINGS: to Whom be glory forever. Amen."
ENJOY YOUR SEARCH!
PART 3 - DECEPTION
Deceive: to mislead by a false appearance or statement; delude.
According to Martin Zender:
"God purposely sends deceptions into the world—even in the form
of mistranslated Scripture—to separate truth lovers from the lovers of
injustice.
I'm glad you are here. I will quote you three Scriptures to support this
initially disturbing point.
Proverbs 25:2—"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory
of kings to investigate a matter."
1st Corinthians 11:19—"For it must be that there are sects (groups
that deviate from accepted religious tradition) also among you, that
those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent."
2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12—"And therefore God will be sending them
an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood, that all
may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."
-end quote- (Martin Zender Goes To Hell, Martin Zender)
GOD IS IN CHARGE OF DECEPTION
Could it be? Is it true? Is God in charge of deception? Is God the One
responsible for sending strong delusion (an operation of deception)?
YES! I know that this is troubling to many people who hear it for the
first time, but nevertheless, IT IS THE TRUTH! How could it be any
other way? Remember...God is sovereign. God is omnipotent (allpowerful),
omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipresent (all-present). Is
there anything that is not under His control? Is there anything that He
is not in charge of? Is there anything that He does not either cause or
allow?
DECEPTION IS PART OF GOD'S PLAN
Since deception is part of God's plan, then we must come to the conclusion
that it is a necessary part of God revealing Himself to mankind. So...It
is vital that we seek to understand deception, and that we also seek to
understand why it is necessary. Before we do that, here are a few more
Scriptures to support this point:
1st Kings 22:22-23—"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that
he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner,
and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and
stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD
said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be
a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, you shall
persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore,
behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your
prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."
Revelation 20:2-3—"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And
cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon
him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand
years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little
season."
Revelation 20:7-8—"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan
shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather
them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
Well...There you have it! There is no doubt that God is the One
responsible for concealing things, creating sects, sending deception
(strong delusion), putting lying spirits in the mouths of prophets, and
shutting up and loosing Satan for the purpose of deceiving the nations.
WHY?
Why would God do these things? In order to understand something of
this nature we must also be willing to accept that God created all things
(good and evil, light and darkness, and opposing forces). This can be
seen from such passages as Isaiah 45:7 and Colossians 1:16-20, as well
as many other passages. The Bible is full of this kind of talk, but most
never read the Bible, or they read it with their minds already made up
and just ignore these types of passages, explaining them away.
Think of it like this...How could we know what truth was if there was no
such thing as deception? How could we know what light was if there was
no such thing as darkness? In fact, God starts everything in deception
and darkness and then brings it to truth and light. Remember...Genesis
1:1-2—"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And
the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
With this in mind, we must grow up in our understanding of God. God
has the power to shut us up in deception, and God has the power to
illuminate our minds (give us ears to hear) to come out of deception
and darkness into His marvelous light. It should be no surprise to us
that the majority of the world (including the church) is in deception.
GOD HAS PLANNED IT THAT WAY! As a matter of fact, Jesus told us
that...there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
deceive the very elect.
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
After coming to a revelation such as this, we are now able to go from glory
to glory, growing in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord. We are
able to approach all types of people, being all things to all men, that we
might win some. We are no longer hindered by the traditions of men,
which state that God is fighting against evil trying to do the best He can,
but will lose the vast majority of the human race. On the contrary, God
is in charge of all things, including deception. Deception is but another
instructive tool in God's tool box, which is for the purpose of teaching
man the difference between error and truth, and how to recognize those
who are still in error, knowing that they have been placed there by God,
and that we who have been brought out of deception by God are to
(with love and compassion) lead the others out." - Thomas Kissinger
(the 'edit' under 'THE FALL' is currently a discouraged topic at TM)
QuoteAre the powers that cause disobedience stronger (more persuasive) than the powers that cause obedience? Is this why Adam sinned?
Sometimes it seems that way doesn't it.
QuoteGod made man perfect according to His design. I think this perfect design in the beginning is not the perfect design we see at the end.
I agree
QuoteI do not blame God for any crap but I do give Him credit for all things.
Giving Him credit for the tares though brother is in total contradiction of scripture.
QuotePneuma, you believe we reap what we sow and I do too on one level. Do you think the grace we reap is equal to what we sow?
No Grace supper abounds, we receive much more than that which we sow in grace. Which is probably why you said this earlier
I do not reap what I sow, contrary to Scripture, I reap far more good than the evil I sowed, praise be to God.
The grace super abounded towards you far more than when you sowed error which is why you feel that you have reaped more good than evil.
Quote'Hell' for me is not understanding myself relationally to God and your words, Pneuma (and others here), really help me climb a bit more out of that 'hell' towards the light of Heaven. I thank you for your patient words to me Brother.
Thanks bro, but were you see some light in my words other see winds of doctrine
QuoteI recommend for anyone who wants to understand God's plan for us to read this excerpt from the NOBLE BEREAN by Thomas Kissinger. It is Biblically based and doesn't jump through a bunch of hoops trying to explain/explain away scripture that "doesn't make sense to us"... IMO, it's an excellent summary and explanation of UR and God's purposes, and will help keep you from being "blown about by every wind of doctrine".
Jab I could pick that apart and show you a whole different understanding, but I would just be wasting my time as you have already made up your mind that what I am saying is a wind of doctrine.
I take no offence at that bro, but will point out that UR in your view probably was just a wind of doctrine at one time also.
Well I guess I have said about all I can on this subject and would only be repeating myself time and again if I kept going, so I think it is time to end my participation on this thread.
Bob just wanted to say I very much enjoyed our conversation and am very glad we could talk plainly with each other without becoming offended with one another.
Zeek you seem to be hearing what I am saying bro, keep searching the scriptures before God and I believe you'll see much more than I have been able to explain. If I can be of any help on anything feel free to pm or email me.
Card I really hope when you have the time you look more closely before the Lord into the foundation, it really will change some of your understanding of the scriptures.
:cloud9: I'm going to pneuma, I haven't forgotten. I'm just overwhelmed with natural issues right now, and too much of my time is spent in doctor's offices :sigh: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 28, 2009, 04:59:57 AM
:cloud9: I'm going to pneuma, I haven't forgotten. I'm just overwhelmed with natural issues right now, and too much of my time is spent in doctor's offices :sigh: Blessings....
I understand that sis and you are in my prayers.
Quote from: pneuma on April 28, 2009, 02:40:57 AM
Well I guess I have said about all I can on this subject and would only be repeating myself time and again if I kept going, so I think it is time to end my participation on this thread.
Bob just wanted to say I very much enjoyed our conversation and am very glad we could talk plainly with each other without becoming offended with one another.
Thanks Scott, me too. I'd started another long reply but I think it's best to let it go at that for now.
I did want to get in one point about Job though.
I don't believe Job was being chastised by God. Chastisement is for when we fail to judge ourselves (1 Cor 11:31-32) which implies some degree of sin. But Job is called "perfect and upright". So what was happening to Job? Job's faith was being tried by God because "The LORD trieth the righteous" (Psalm 11:5) and "when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold." (Job 23:10) So I agree that Job's friends were wrong when they attributed Job's sufferings to Job's sin.
As far as who was doing all that to Job -- God or Satan. Consider what Job had to say about it: "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away" and "shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil." And of Job's words God said "in all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22) and "...for ye [Job's friends] have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." (Job 42:7)
God bless,
Bob
:cloud9: I just want to say I've enjoyed reading all of your posts.....lots to meditate on..... :thumbsup: Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on April 30, 2009, 05:30:51 PM
:cloud9: I just want to say I've enjoyed reading all of your posts.....lots to meditate on..... :thumbsup: Blessings...
Thanks Cardinal!
Quote from: bobf on April 30, 2009, 10:21:55 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 30, 2009, 05:30:51 PM
:cloud9: I just want to say I've enjoyed reading all of your posts.....lots to meditate on..... :thumbsup: Blessings...
Thanks Cardinal!
Bob and I have a s/w different view of how to reach our conclusions within scripture, but alas, somehow usually end up seeing things very similarly, understanding many of these things the same way. :hihat:
Quote from: jabcat on April 30, 2009, 10:28:32 PM
Quote from: bobf on April 30, 2009, 10:21:55 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 30, 2009, 05:30:51 PM
:cloud9: I just want to say I've enjoyed reading all of your posts.....lots to meditate on..... :thumbsup: Blessings...
Thanks Cardinal!
Bob and I have a s/w different view of how to reach our conclusions within scripture, but alas, somehow usually end up seeing things very similarly, understanding many of these things the same way. :hihat:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: chuckt on March 25, 2009, 06:07:53 PM
QuotePsalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock. English Translation of the LXX
first thing that came to my mind was. OUR ROCK. :thumbsup:
blessings.
chuckt
So, I was writing Bible verses for evangelism when someone said You should do Psalms 137:9 next.
I had typed my reply Thank you for the suggestion :D, but deleted it and decided to search up the verse, just in case it could be perceived as controversial.
Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! ERV
So good thing I checked, or I could have stepped on a a proverbial land mine. Its why I always watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing.
So I looked through this thread and then replied Psalms 137:9, like many other parts of the Bible, is not meant to be taken literally
So they replied alright thanks for clarifying
You may have noticed I said proverbial land mine. Thats because, Psalms 137:9, like much of Proverbs, tells of a spiritual truth.
Another common one is The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. ECTers love to use that in debates, but when you imagine it as a metaphor of the Jews and the Gentiles, it makes sense.
he who seizes
שֶׁיֹּאחֵ֓ז (eyōḥz)
Can be seen as grabbing a spiritual hold of something, not physical. Like, if someones learning math, they can say they have a grasp on the topic. They arent physically holding it, they just understand it.
your infants
עֹ֝לָלַ֗יִךְ (ōlālayiḵ)
Strong's 5768: A suckling
and dashes
וְנִפֵּ֬ץ (wənippṣ)
Strong's 5310: To dash to pieces, scatter
Is also used in the following verse as little ones to pieces
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
Hosea 13:17
Return, Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall!
Reveals that the reason why the little ones are dashed on the rocks is because of sin, which is their downfall, and the LORD, is trying to persuade Israel to return to Him, thus the LORD is actively trying to stop the children from being dashed on the rocks!
https://ludwig.guru/s/dashed+on+the+rocks
reveals that dashed on the rocks is an idiom like on the rocks
On the rocks.
If something, like a relationship, is on the rocks, it is in trouble and may come to an end.
Thus, when the Bible says dashes on the rocks in Psalms 137:9 it means ending a relationship. The LORD wants all people to have a relationship with Him through Christ, thus, the relationship that God wants to end is the relationship humans have with sin in Hosea 13:17!
Thats why its a blessing! The little ones have a relationship with sin, so God dashes them on the rocks, ends their relationship with sin and dashes them against The Lord, who is the Rock (which is mentioned frequently in the same chapter of Psalms)
Psalm 18:1-3 I love you, Lord; you are my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior
3. Psalm 71:3
Psalm 71:3 Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
Psalm 62:7-8 My honor and salvation come from God. He is my mighty rock and my protection.
Psalm 31:3-4 Yes, you are my Rock and my protection
Is God literally a rock No, Hes not physically a rock. Hes spiritually a rock, his spiritual protection is as hard as a rock.
And now I just used Psalms 137:9 in spreading the Gospel by saying The Lord is our Rock. He keeps the little ones on the Rock. Christ is our Rock. All will be saved through Him. He will save the world.
So, what was originally used as a controversial verse meant to stump Christians has now been transformed into a powerful loving verse meant to stump those who do not believe, leave them stunned by the sheer awe and splendor of the Lords love for all of humanity.
Why Because, it was always meant to be a reflection of Gods grace towards all of mankind.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge
And as well, thank you to everyone who has participate in this forum. Even a decade later, the discussion on here has helped me tremendously when spreading the Gospel of Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to people.
Quote from: Song on December 11, 2022, 03:26:42 AM
Quote from: chuckt on March 25, 2009, 06:07:53 PM
Quote
And as well, thank you to everyone who has participate in this forum. Even a decade later, the discussion on here has helped me tremendously when spreading the Gospel of Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to people.
Amen !..same.