The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Molly]

separated from its origination in the down-casting (of the cosmos)

Anything separated from God has to be lowered into a less perfect state by definition.

We see this happen when they are cast out of the garden--sweat of his brow, pain in reproducing, dust to dust--the frustration of entropy, everything winds down, decays, and dies.

But, life uniquely works in opposition to the laws of physics.  Life regenerates itself in a most miraculous way.

This entropy, this death, decay, hopelessness,  then, is what we are to overcome, not only for ourselves but for all creation--receiving the life he has abundantly given us and reproducing it in every direction.

Our God is a creator.  We should be likewise.

[pneuma]

Now,Pneuma, you have not only placed those sins squarely on

our backs again..but are ADDING UNTO THEM TRANSGRESSIONS

OF THE FALLEN ANGELS BEFORE WE WERE EVEN SOWN INTO

THIS CORRUPTION.

   Sorry,bad fruit brother..if it is putting more sin on us..it is bad

   THIS HAS THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN WRITTEN ALL OVER IT


  Blame God, Blame man..but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!!

Hi Shelia, I think you need to go back and read my posts sis, because you have not understood them.

I have been the one who has been saying Satan sowed the tares in us that these are his/satans works, others have been saying God is responsible for our disobedience and death as He planned it all out that way. Thus making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.

How you get I blame God, blame man but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!! Out of what I have been saying is beyond me  :dontknow: For I have been blaming the devil all along.

[pneuma]

Pneuma, your posts are akin to a gentle wind; having the Spirit of God's Word within them!

peacemaker

Thanks PM

[CHB]

I have been the one who has been saying Satan sowed the tares in us that these are his/satans works, others have been saying God is responsible for our disobedience and death as He planned it all out that way. Thus making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.

Hi,

If God created satan and satan can do nothing without God's permission how can these things, good and bad, not be of God?

CHB

[sheila]

 Hi Pneuma

   Sorry if I mis-read you. I think I addressed you because of the

  possible thought that mankind were the fallen angels..it was

that  'thought'I took issue with.

   Also there is a great mystery as to why our creator who is

only good could have 'evil' exist in his creation.  What it boils down to

is He 'developed this 'evil' that is everything He is not..as

an adversarial tool for our education and disciplining .Since it

holds in it's design..everything HE is not..it is not of HIM but

apart from Him..actually He tells us it is everything He hates..

  The spirit of disobediance is lawlessness..and when it resides

in man..it manifests the man of lawlessness. It is NOT life

  but death  and brings much suffering when it touches the life

  of man. It is the 'negative' counterpart to HIS 'positive.Which Blesses man.

   The Law was written for the LAWLESS to show that there was nothing but death in it.That the spirit of disobediance dwelt in
man's flesh. Sin[spirit of disobediance] was condemned in flesh
   
   Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His

  design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a

dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'

it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of

man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have

sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]

   OUR FATHER KEEPS THE LAW OF HIS LOVE FOR US PERFECTLY

  EVEN THOUGH WE BE CHASTENED AND SCOURGED AND BEAR

  THE HUMILIATION OF OUR YOUTH AND SUFFER EVIL

   Our Father has kept this spiritual Law of LOVE for mankind..

  from the beginning and has always protected our eternal

spiritual lives. Any damage or destruction accomplished by this

  'negative' expierance is of only a temporal nature while we

dwell on this earth. It can only 'touch' us while we dwell in

our body of flesh. It has the power to bring death to our

  flesh,only...because our spirits are of Him and do return to Him

  when the flesh returns to the dust.[I will draw all men]

    No 'weapon' formed against us will suceed. Even though we

  have not known it..Our Father has been protecting us all along.

   The Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world.

   Jesus Christ as the SON OF GOD  the firstborn from the dead

   speaks of the family of Adam[son of God] being lowered into

    this 'death' realm/expierence...

[SON OF MAN/ADAM]  and the holy promised seed of

  eternal life...is the good seed of God's spirit sown in this

  corruption. And death and hell shall not prevail against it....it

  is by the indestructable spirit of God that death does not prevail.

  Yes the seed dwells in 'soil' that also has tares dwelling in it...

  Matthew 13;30 Let both grow togather until the harvest.At

that time I will tell the harvesters; first collect the weeds and

tie them in bundles,to be burned; then gather the wheat and

bring it into my barn

[Cardinal]

   Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His

  design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a

dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'

it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of

man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have

sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]

:cloud9: interesting point.....I'm thinking about this in relation to what happened with the cross. Blessings....

[Molly]

   Our Father knew he had this destructive 'thing' built into His

  design. If you go to the LAW it shows that a man that had a

dangerous animal and knew it to be such...and didn't 'restrain'

it;s destructive nature and protect life..that He is guilty of

man's blood.[His sons must also follow this principle who have

sin in their flesh/restrain it from damaging their fellowman]

:cloud9: interesting point.....I'm thinking about this in relation to what happened with the cross. Blessings....

Can anyone show me where that is in scripture?

Thanks.

[bobf]

Hey Scott,

Yes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him. So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.

Why is being corruptible a necessary ingredient to being able to make choices or being free?  God is not corruptible and makes choices and is free.  We will not be corruptible in the resurrection yet we will still be free.

I also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother.  God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden...

I still see two.
[1] God chose to make man corruptible in Adam, though He chooses to later make us incorruptible in the resurrection.
[2] God chose to kick Satan out out only after A&E ate instead of before.

if He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.

God has restricted Satan's freedom in scripture.  For example, God put limits on Satan's freedom in how much he could harm Job.  Satan is bound in Revelation.

And if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.

It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.

Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY?

I don't think WAY and PLAN are synonomous.

Jesus Christ is the Way that leads us to the Father refers to following His example, taking up our cross.

Here are some elements of God's plan that are not synonomous with this Way.
- God planned for man to hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.
- Preaching is accomplished by the saints.
- The law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

IOW the Way refers to how we are to think an act in harmony with God and following the example Christ set.  But God's entire plan contains elements (law, reaping, hearing foolish preaching, being blinded, being given sight etc.) that are not synonomous with living as Christ lived.  Even if you believe those elements were never part of God's original plan, they are part of God's plan now and yet Christ still said (after those elements were in place) that Christ is the only way to the Father.

But they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.

I was not arguing against that verse.  I agree with you that a good tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit.  Given that truth, my point was to ask "how then did the good tree Satan bring forth corrupt fruit all on his own?"

But upon further reflection, I don't really like my point because it presumes that a good tree can not become a corrupt tree.  Ezekiel 18 (if I'm recalling the chapter correctly) says that a righteous person (good tree) can turn from his righteousness (thus becoming a corrupt tree) and his past righteousness will not save him.  And vice versa.  So I think I was misuing the good tree / bad tree scripture to say that once a man is a good tree he can never bring forth evil fruit.  But that is not true per Ezekiel 18.  I think what the good tree scripture is really saying is the same thing as when Christ said "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will be clean" and "out of the heart a man speaketh".  IOW if our heart is righteous then good fruit will proceed from the inside out.  And if our heart is evil then corrupt fruit will proceed forth.  Jesus is telling us to get right in our heart.  Clean the inside of the cup and then good fruit WILL appear.

In the case of God, we know that God does not change.  So God as a good tree indeed can never ever bring forth corrupt fruit.

Yes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.

I disagree there.  I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father.  It is the only way to be proved to be in His image.  Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily.  Even "publicans" love those who love them.  Loving those who love me is not sufficient.  If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.

And this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.

I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike.   I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ.  Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.

Adam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.

I was pointing to a principle.  We rightly find fault with a two year old, even though the two year old is not the source of his innate predispositions and faults.  Adam was not two years old, but spiritually speaking, I believe he was two years old.

That' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.

I agree, God did not intend to destroy the people.  God intended for Moses to obey the heart of the law and God only apparently repented.

Well I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?

Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?

These questions all have related answers so I will address them together.

A good tree can not bare corrupt fruit.  I'm in complete agreement there.  What that means to me is that one who is righteous on the inside will bring forth good fruit on  the outside to be observed by others.  Vice verse for a corrupt tree.  Man as a good tree or corrupt tree can change (Ezekiel 18).

In contrast, God does not change.  So I think you are right to point out that God as a good tree can never bring forth corrupt fruit.

The key point where I disagree with your statements is that you are implying that IF God ever intended anything evil to occur then God would be bringing forth corrupt fruit.   I think I can demonstrate otherwise by scripture.  This brings me back to the thorn in the flesh.

The thorn in the flesh was GIVEN by God.  So God intended it and it was part of God's plan.

I also agree with you when you point out that the thorn in the flesh was GOOD as a rod of correction.  It's purpose was to keep Paul from becoming puffed up.  From the perspective of God's intent, the thorn in the flesh was GOOD FRUIT proceeding from the heart of God for Paul's benefit.

So how do I know that the thorn in the flesh was also CORRUPT FRUIT?  Because the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul.  Satan is a corrupt tree so this fruit proceeding from the heart of Satan was corrupt.  "Buffet" is the same word used to describe what was done to Christ during His crucifixion.  Satan purpose was not to keep Paul from becoming puffed up.  Satan's purpose was to hinder Paul's minstry.

So the thorn in the flesh was BOTH corrupt fruit proceeding from Satan (as a messenger of Satan) and good fruit proceeding from God as a means of correcting and blessing Paul.

This parrallels Job, Joseph, and Christ.  In each case a single "event" that was manifest in the physical world was CORRUPT FRUIT of evil people trying to work evil and GOOD FRUIT of God when God weaved that evil intened by others into good.

Job's suffering - was worked by Satan for evil purposes, was worked by God to bring Job forth like gold.
Jospeph's being sold as a slave - was worked by jealous brothers to get even, was worked by God to save many from famine.
Christ's crucifixion - was carried out by evil men out of hatred, was carried out by God (please God to bruise him) for the salvation of the world.

God bless,
Bob

[sheila]

 Hi Molly,

  Look to the LAW and the TESTIMONY...IT IS THE LAW OF

  LOVE AN ELEVATED SPIRITUAL FULFILLING OF IT BY OUR

  FATHER   WHO DOES KEEP AND FUFILL IT. He can and does

 keep it perfectly with mercy and love. Not a jot nor title will not be fulfilled.

There is no LAW against  LOVE...for instance Lev 5;16

  the guilt offering...if a  person sins unintentionally in regard

 to any of the Lord's Holy things a penalty guilt ofering was a

ram without blemish and a proper amount of silver. Our Father

as head of our family is our High Preist and performed this

preistly service for us.

  In cases of theft and cheating, the stolen property had to be

returned along with a 20% indemnity. You can see this being

fulfilled by our Father also. Enoch wrote of 10 heavens...the

new Jerusalem has 12 foundation...20% of 10 +2...

add 2+10 and you have the new heavens..Adam's family was

cheated/robbed out of the Holy birthright. And here you see our

Father has made restitution

  Remember,Jesus said 'I do only what I see the Father do"

  I LOVE THE LAW BECAUSE OF THIS...

                    Sheila

[reFORMer]

Galatians 4:28-5:1 (CLV)...
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
Chapter 5
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

Christ brings increasing freedom.  At this time we must enslave the flesh to obey God and do what is right.  We shall be delivered from this body of humiliation by Jesus Who will transfigure it, "...to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:21, CLV)

Romans 6:
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.
21 What fruit, then, had you then? -- of which you are now ashamed, for, indeed, the consummation of those things is death.
22 Yet, now, being freed from Sin, yet enslaved to God, you have your fruit for holiness. Now the consummation is life eonian.
23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

I'm trying to bring a context for saying we are not free in our birth in Adam.  We're born in other men's homes, raised in their schools of thought; we're victims of their sins and subjected to their gods.  There is no way I can say God made man free.  Some theory about the original Adam sidesteps the hell that millions of people are born into, a hell not of their own devising.  It seems to me that asking a girl who has just been raped, "What were you wearing?" is kinder than blaming those born to wicked men in evil circumstances for their own victimization.  Too many (like Comfort and Cameron) have tried to prove you are solely responsible for your own sins.  Then, if you exercise your sovereign choice to accept God, you have obtained your salvation.  You chose, whatever wrong you did, and you chose to follow Jesus.  But, Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed.  That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality.  I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV)  This is why the first part of the gospel is:  "Christ died for OUR sins..."  There is a mutual guilt that must include forgiveness that we may be forgiven.  Ordinarily the beginner in the Lord doesn't recognize this.  Admitting that however he came by this condition, with no more plea for his own or any other's ability to provide, he is reduced to a need he cannot meet.  He must have Jesus.

[Doc]

Hey Scott,

Yes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him. So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.

Why is being corruptible a necessary ingredient to being able to make choices or being free?  God is not corruptible and makes choices and is free.  We will not be corruptible in the resurrection yet we will still be free.

I also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother.  God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden...

I still see two.
[1] God chose to make man corruptible in Adam, though He chooses to later make us incorruptible in the resurrection.
[2] God chose to kick Satan out out only after A&E ate instead of before.

if He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.

God has restricted Satan's freedom in scripture.  For example, God put limits on Satan's freedom in how much he could harm Job.  Satan is bound in Revelation.

And if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.

It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.

Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY?

I don't think WAY and PLAN are synonomous.

Jesus Christ is the Way that leads us to the Father refers to following His example, taking up our cross.

Here are some elements of God's plan that are not synonomous with this Way.
- God planned for man to hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.
- Preaching is accomplished by the saints.
- The law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

IOW the Way refers to how we are to think an act in harmony with God and following the example Christ set.  But God's entire plan contains elements (law, reaping, hearing foolish preaching, being blinded, being given sight etc.) that are not synonomous with living as Christ lived.  Even if you believe those elements were never part of God's original plan, they are part of God's plan now and yet Christ still said (after those elements were in place) that Christ is the only way to the Father.

But they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.

I was not arguing against that verse.  I agree with you that a good tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit.  Given that truth, my point was to ask "how then did the good tree Satan bring forth corrupt fruit all on his own?"

But upon further reflection, I don't really like my point because it presumes that a good tree can not become a corrupt tree.  Ezekiel 18 (if I'm recalling the chapter correctly) says that a righteous person (good tree) can turn from his righteousness (thus becoming a corrupt tree) and his past righteousness will not save him.  And vice versa.  So I think I was misuing the good tree / bad tree scripture to say that once a man is a good tree he can never bring forth evil fruit.  But that is not true per Ezekiel 18.  I think what the good tree scripture is really saying is the same thing as when Christ said "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will be clean" and "out of the heart a man speaketh".  IOW if our heart is righteous then good fruit will proceed from the inside out.  And if our heart is evil then corrupt fruit will proceed forth.  Jesus is telling us to get right in our heart.  Clean the inside of the cup and then good fruit WILL appear.

In the case of God, we know that God does not change.  So God as a good tree indeed can never ever bring forth corrupt fruit.

Yes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.

I disagree there.  I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father.  It is the only way to be proved to be in His image.  Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily.  Even "publicans" love those who love them.  Loving those who love me is not sufficient.  If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.

And this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.

I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike.   I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ.  Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.

Adam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.

I was pointing to a principle.  We rightly find fault with a two year old, even though the two year old is not the source of his innate predispositions and faults.  Adam was not two years old, but spiritually speaking, I believe he was two years old.

That' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.

I agree, God did not intend to destroy the people.  God intended for Moses to obey the heart of the law and God only apparently repented.

Well I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?

Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?

These questions all have related answers so I will address them together.

A good tree can not bare corrupt fruit.  I'm in complete agreement there.  What that means to me is that one who is righteous on the inside will bring forth good fruit on  the outside to be observed by others.  Vice verse for a corrupt tree.  Man as a good tree or corrupt tree can change (Ezekiel 18).

In contrast, God does not change.  So I think you are right to point out that God as a good tree can never bring forth corrupt fruit.

The key point where I disagree with your statements is that you are implying that IF God ever intended anything evil to occur then God would be bringing forth corrupt fruit.   I think I can demonstrate otherwise by scripture.  This brings me back to the thorn in the flesh.

The thorn in the flesh was GIVEN by God.  So God intended it and it was part of God's plan.

I also agree with you when you point out that the thorn in the flesh was GOOD as a rod of correction.  It's purpose was to keep Paul from becoming puffed up.  From the perspective of God's intent, the thorn in the flesh was GOOD FRUIT proceeding from the heart of God for Paul's benefit.

So how do I know that the thorn in the flesh was also CORRUPT FRUIT?  Because the scripture says that the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul.  Satan is a corrupt tree so this fruit proceeding from the heart of Satan was corrupt.  "Buffet" is the same word used to describe what was done to Christ during His crucifixion.  Satan purpose was not to keep Paul from becoming puffed up.  Satan's purpose was to hinder Paul's minstry.

So the thorn in the flesh was BOTH corrupt fruit proceeding from Satan (as a messenger of Satan) and good fruit proceeding from God as a means of correcting and blessing Paul.

This parrallels Job, Joseph, and Christ.  In each case a single "event" that was manifest in the physical world was CORRUPT FRUIT of evil people trying to work evil and GOOD FRUIT of God when God weaved that evil intened by others into good.

Job's suffering - was worked by Satan for evil purposes, was worked by God to bring Job forth like gold.
Jospeph's being sold as a slave - was worked by jealous brothers to get even, was worked by God to save many from famine.
Christ's crucifixion - was carried out by evil men out of hatred, was carried out by God (please God to bruise him) for the salvation of the world.

God bless,
Bob

Great points, Bob. I especially appreciated these two:

I disagree there.  I believe that what Christ showed us, including enduring evil and forgiving those who sin against us, is a complete picture of the only way to the Father.  It is the only way to be proved to be in His image.  Therefore enduring evil was always part of the plan because it is necessarily.  Even "publicans" love those who love them.  Loving those who love me is not sufficient.  If everyone around me were good then I would never really have had to walk as Christ walked.


I wasn't saying that WE need to sin in order to be Christlike.   I was saying the WE need to endure the sin of others in order to take up our cross and follow Christ.  Christ's cross was to bare the sins of others.

[jabcat]

  ...Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed.  That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality.  I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV)  This is why the first part of the gospel is:  "Christ died for OUR sins..."    must have Jesus.

:thumbsup:

[Doc]

Galatians 4:28-5:1 (CLV)...
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
Chapter 5
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

Christ brings increasing freedom.  At this time we must enslave the flesh to obey God and do what is right.  We shall be delivered from this body of humiliation by Jesus Who will transfigure it, "...to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:21, CLV)

Romans 6:
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.
21 What fruit, then, had you then? -- of which you are now ashamed, for, indeed, the consummation of those things is death.
22 Yet, now, being freed from Sin, yet enslaved to God, you have your fruit for holiness. Now the consummation is life eonian.
23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

I'm trying to bring a context for saying we are not free in our birth in Adam.  We're born in other men's homes, raised in their schools of thought; we're victims of their sins and subjected to their gods.  There is no way I can say God made man free.  Some theory about the original Adam sidesteps the hell that millions of people are born into, a hell not of their own devising.  It seems to me that asking a girl who has just been raped, "What were you wearing?" is kinder than blaming those born to wicked men in evil circumstances for their own victimization.  Too many (like Comfort and Cameron) have tried to prove you are solely responsible for your own sins.  Then, if you exercise your sovereign choice to accept God, you have obtained your salvation.  You chose, whatever wrong you did, and you chose to follow Jesus.  But, Jesus must of His own will reveal Himself to be followed.  That is something you can't buy, coerce Him into or deserve by any pose you might make with your personality.  I propose that born in Adam we are victims, not that we don't share degrees of responsibility, made resonsible together with others because Jesus is, "the true light--which is enlightening every man..." (Jn 1:9, CLV)  This is why the first part of the gospel is:  "Christ died for OUR sins..."  There is a mutual guilt that must include forgiveness that we may be forgiven.  Ordinarily the beginner in the Lord doesn't recognize this.  Admitting that however he came by this condition, with no more plea for his own or any other's ability to provide, he is reduced to a need he cannot meet.  He must have Jesus.

:goodpost:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, pneuma  :thumbsup: Gonna borrow one of Taffy's daisys for ya.... :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

....What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,   Romans 9

[pneuma]

Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598  { hod-os'}

apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f

AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6, highway 3, misc 2; 102

GK - 3847 {  }

GK - together with 4160 3846 {  }

1)   properly
1a)   a way
1a1)   a travelled way, road
1b)   a travellers way, journey, travelling
2)   metaph.
2a)   a course of conduct
2b)   a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD

Ways:
1870  { deh'-rek}

from 1869; TWOT - 453a; n m

AV - way 590, toward 31, journey 23, manner 8, misc 53; 705

GK - 2006 { Jr,D,
1)   way, road, distance, journey, manner
1a)   road, way, path
1b)   journey
1c)   direction
1d)   manner, habit, way
1e)   of course of life (fig.)
1f)   of moral character (fig.)

It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.

Adams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.

Bob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.

For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.

God forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.

You might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer.

What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.

Eternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?

I know I am using hard words brother, but I don't know how else to express how horrible this view of God is to me, my heart really bleeds to see people have this view of our kind loving Father.

So forgive me if I offend, as I am not trying to offend you or others.

God is NOT responsible for all the evils in this world brother, (I know you have said He is not responsible but if He planned it all then He most assuredly is) Man's union with the Devil is what brought all these evils into the world. Sin is of the Devil brother not of God, if God planned for sin then sin would be of God. It does not matter if He used another to bring sin into the world He is still responsible for it. A mob boss might not pull the trigger put he is a murder just the same.

As to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.

[pneuma]

Hi Pneuma

   Sorry if I mis-read you. I think I addressed you because of the

  possible thought that mankind were the fallen angels..it was

that  'thought'I took issue with.

Hi Shelia, you might still be misunderstanding me sis, my view of the angels that kept not their first estate is in reference to Adam and Eve in the garden. look back to my post on page 1 or 2 of this thread for more info on what I was talking about.

[pneuma]

Doc where do you get the word from means before?

It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.

Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.

I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.

Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world

World here is also kosmos Doc. so yes it can mean what I was saying.

[Doc]

Doc where do you get the word from means before?

It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.

Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.

I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.

Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world

World here is also kosmos Doc. so yes it can mean what I was saying.

I think that's a misunderstanding of how that word is used in the two contexts. Either way, it refers to the physical earth and universe.

[bobf]

Hi Scott, I appreciate your frankness and take no offsense.

Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598  { hod-os'}

apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f

It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.

Jesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father.  But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.

Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:

1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.  That hearing leads to faith.  So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.

2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ.  Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster.  So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ.  It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.

Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.

Adams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.

The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command.  It even states why God intended it.  That road for pharoah was not the way.  It did not lead the pharoah to the Father.  But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.

Bob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.

For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.

I do realize it.  Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.

Your belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues.  To be frank it is mere hand-waving.

If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it

If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.

God forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.

Yes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father.  Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.

So what does that mean?

Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?

They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.

You might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer.   What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.

Yes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop.  No difference.

Eternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?

God has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good.  I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good.  Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good.  And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.

As to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.

Except God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh.  Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My question for you Scott is this:

How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?

[trettep]

Bob Gods plan and way are synonymous, Jesus said I am the WAY
Way:
3598  { hod-os'}

apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:42,666; n f

AV - way 83, way side 8, journey 6, highway 3, misc 2; 102

GK - 3847 {  }

GK - together with 4160 3846 {  }

1)   properly
1a)   a way
1a1)   a travelled way, road
1b)   a travellers way, journey, travelling
2)   metaph.
2a)   a course of conduct
2b)   a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD

Ways:
1870  { deh'-rek}

from 1869; TWOT - 453a; n m

AV - way 590, toward 31, journey 23, manner 8, misc 53; 705

GK - 2006 { Jr,D,
1)   way, road, distance, journey, manner
1a)   road, way, path
1b)   journey
1c)   direction
1d)   manner, habit, way
1e)   of course of life (fig.)
1f)   of moral character (fig.)

It is not JUST the WAY of thinking brother but the journey, road, path, direction we travel.

Adams way/path/journey through disobedience and death is NOT the WAY God planned man to travel. Jesus Christ's way/path/journey through obedience and life IS what God planned man to travel.

Bob I don't think you realises the full extent of your belief that God planned for Adam to be disobedient and bring death into the world represents.

For if God planned this out the way you and others believe He did then when a pedophile abuse a child, or a murder murders someone you are saying that these evils are/were planned of God.

God forbid that people believe after this fashion brother, for if God planned for disobedience and death then a part of His plan MUST be for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder.

You might say no God never planned for the pedophile to abuse and the murder to murder, but if God planned for man to enter into disobedience and death then God MUST have planned for these things because if there was no disobedience and death then there would be no pedophile or murderer.

What you are saying in effect brother is all the atrocities that take place in this world is all a part of the plan of God.

Eternal torment is nothing compared to believing after this fashion brother, for if God is really so cruel as to have planned out all these atrocities what makes you think that He does not also plan to torment people forever and ever?

I know I am using hard words brother, but I don't know how else to express how horrible this view of God is to me, my heart really bleeds to see people have this view of our kind loving Father.

So forgive me if I offend, as I am not trying to offend you or others.

God is NOT responsible for all the evils in this world brother, (I know you have said He is not responsible but if He planned it all then He most assuredly is) Man's union with the Devil is what brought all these evils into the world. Sin is of the Devil brother not of God, if God planned for sin then sin would be of God. It does not matter if He used another to bring sin into the world He is still responsible for it. A mob boss might not pull the trigger put he is a murder just the same.

As to Paul's thorn and Satan and Job these show how God weaves the evil that Satan and man brought into the world into bring forth good out of evil. God weaves evil, He has to because that is what is in the heart of man from his youth.

God has planned everything.  God holds us accountable for sin but not responsible for it.  God is responsible for all the evils in the world.  That sounds bad to many to hear that but let's consider.  Who was it that created the commandment? - God.  Who knew that Adam and Eve would sin before they broke the commandment? - God.  God is responsible for that sin.  Adam and Eve are being held accountable for it.

Paul

[peacemaker]

Accountable and/or Responsible?

"Two sides of the same coin."

There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?

peacemaker

[trettep]

Accountable and/or Responsible?

"Two sides of the same coin."

There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?

peacemaker

Man is accountable in that he will have debt owed when he has sin.
God is responsible in that God is the one that allows debt to exist and be accumulated for the very purpose and desire to remove it.

Paul

[jabcat]

God has planned everything.  God holds us accountable for sin but not responsible for it.  God is responsible for all the evils in the world.  That sounds bad to many to hear that but let's consider.  Who was it that created the commandment? - God.  Who knew that Adam and Eve would sin before they broke the commandment? - God.  God is responsible for that sin.  Adam and Eve are being held accountable for it.
Paul

IMO, scripture's pretty clear;

Isaiah 45:7  "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."..

Sometimes due to our own personal paradigm, I believe we all sometimes go through contortions to try and make the Word fit our own beliefs.  God challenges us to learn of Him, not of man's tradition.  Does this make me uncomfortable?  You bet.  Do I have a total handle on all this?  Not even close.  But my need is for God to change me, whatever the confrontation from scripture and His spirit may be .... big challenge to me...easy for God.  Fortunately He loves us, and "the end of the Lord is full of mercy" :thumbsup:.

[pneuma]

Jesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father.  But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.

Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:

1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.  That hearing leads to faith.  So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.

2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ.  Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster.  So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ.  It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.

Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.

The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command.  It even states why God intended it.  That road for pharoah was not the way.  It did not lead the pharoah to the Father.  But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.

Hi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.

I do realize it.  Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.

Then I don't know how you can believe it bro.

Your belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues.  To be frank it is mere hand-waving.

If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it

If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.

If His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.

ALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.

Yes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father.  Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.

So what does that mean?

Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?

They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.

God gave us commandments to follow Bob and if man would OBEY them then these things would not be. He gave us the WAY from the very beginning but man left his first love and cleaved unto another.

On the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?

God does see these awful things bro and He weeps and say Jerusalem,  Jerusalem I want to gather you under my wing but ye would not.

Yes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop.  No difference.

The difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.

God has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good.  I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good.  Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good.  And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.

Yes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil? Are God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?

The eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.

You think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.

Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?

If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?

Except God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh.  Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.

Satan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.

My question for you Scott is this:

How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?

God already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word

OBEDIENCE

If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.

God bless