The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Zeek]

Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.

but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan?? 

[Molly]

Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.

but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan?? 

Through Eve.

[Zeek]

Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.

but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan?? 

Through Eve.

So couldn't Adam have stood his ground?  And chose obedience over Eve?





 

[Molly]

Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.

but Adam wasnt' deceived, so how could he have been manipulated into choosing death by satan?? 

Through Eve.

So couldn't Adam have stood his ground?  And chose obedience over Eve?





 

Yes, I think he could have.  But, where would that leave Eve?

You think he should have thrown Eve under the bus?

Where would we be without Jesus?


Romans 5:14
...Adam..., who is the figure of him that was to come.

[Zeek]

So disobedience is the cross??

[Molly]

So disobedience is the cross??

No.  The death/persecution of innocence for [the wellbeing of] another is the cross.




John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Doc]

:cloud9: I think He is able to do all of these things because He knew the end from the beginning. He gave me a simple way to understand this awhile back; I think I shared it, not sure.

Anyway, as I was driving, He showed me an overview of it, and compared it to our life and walk. I was bound by time, whereas He was watching from a point NOT bound by time. So it was easy for Him to see beyond where I was and put up roadblocks, detours, ect. so that although it seemed I was making the choices in my time limitation, really He was doing what was necessary to bring about the end result He desired.

I think He did exactly the same thing with Adam and Eve. He uses the adversary to put up the roadblocks, detours, ect., all the while preparing the path He would have us to walk "ahead of us". Blessings....

A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. Spot on, Card.  :thumbsup:

[Doc]

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope

When did this take place Jab? This did not happen before man was disobedience and ate but afterwards.

To use another of Zeeks scriptures.

Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.

Earlier in the same scripture...

For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.


So God does not willingly bring affliction or grief, but he does bring it, then shows compassion...

[jabcat]

 The cross;   "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."         Thank you, Yesu.
Doc, Sheila and Card, I understand it much the same way. 
Hi Scott..you asked me when this happened, before or after...I really don't have a lot more to share on this right now, not sure what else I can do besides try to show what scripture says, whether I like it or whether it is comfortable to me or not.  The Word needs to change me.  Scripture says what it says, and IMO, all scripture reconciles when taken in context, properly divided, and Spirit revealed...and as I understand, God prepared the Sacrifice from the beginning of our existence here.   As Doc noted, He also brings grief and compassion.  He turns us to disobedience, has mercy on us...He said, "I the Lord, do these things"...Scripture directly says it.

If I believe a particular thing that is foundational yet not supported in scripture,  then I will try to find ways to get other precepts to fit upon that foundation...whether it does or not.  I've done it MANY times.  Again though, the Word needs to change me...if it's something that doesn't make sense to my carnal mind, I need to humble myself and take it to God in prayer and let HIM have the final say. Again, I'll just say that God takes credit for bringing both difficulty and healing...do I argue with Him, or do I say "OK Lord, I believe, help my unbelief...help me understand".  I personally still have many lessons to learn.

[pneuma]

I believe it was God's will, wish, want, desire, intention, plan for Christ to be crucified.  Not in any way shape or form for the evil itself (God is completely against that) but for the sake of showing us the Father, showing us what "love your enemies" really entails, how far it goes.  None of that could have been on full display apart from Christ's crucifixion actually taking place.  I do believe Christ's death was a provision but not in the sense that God had hoped things would turn out differently.

Arrrg just when I thought we were getting close :winkgrin:

That's what I thought you meant by intending Bob, which brings us back to the beginning.

Unless we can come to an agreement on God PLAN/WAY from the beginning we will always disagree with Gods PLAN/WAY.

You see Gods PLAN/WAY was always through death unto life, that God planned for Adam to sin through disobedience so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.

I see Gods PLAN/WAY as obedience from the very start, that Christ sacrifice was NOT a part of the PLAN/WAY, but because of mans disobedience God responded to the clay and sent His son in response to mans disobedience.

So I think we should focus on the beginning because that is where the disagreement manifests itself. And if we can come into agreement then the rest of what took place should fall into place.

So I guess I'll start. I posted this already but for a refresher I'll post it again.


KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.

If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.

We see this very principal brought out in

1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.



And I think the reason God commanded these sacrifices and offerings was so that the people would see what a heinous act it was that they must slay an innocent life for their own sinful ways.

Ezekiel 20:25
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.



Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Why?

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.


Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 

Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.

If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?

Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.


Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
 
Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:  6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.

Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in sacrificing His son.

Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?

Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.



Jab for your point on

Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


What is this scripture really saying?

Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?

If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?

If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:

Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.

If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.

Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.

This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.

If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.

Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the stone on which the foundation is laid.

Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.

God bless.

[pneuma]

Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.


Who intended it to be for life?? 


If it was God's intent, then how did it become a way to death??  If God intended it for life, then why would HE have slain Jesus in his intent first?? 

Hos 6:6  For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

exactly Zeek :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

The cross;   "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."         Thank you, Yesu.
Doc, Sheila and Card, I understand it much the same way. 
Hi Scott..you asked me when this happened, before or after...I really don't have a lot more to share on this right now, not sure what else I can do besides try to show what scripture says, whether I like it or whether it is comfortable to me or not.  The Word needs to change me.  Scripture says what it says, and IMO, all scripture reconciles when taken in context, properly divided, and Spirit revealed...and as I understand, God prepared the Sacrifice from the beginning of our existence here.   As Doc noted, He also brings grief and compassion.  He turns us to disobedience, has mercy on us...He said, "I the Lord, do these things"...Scripture directly says it.

If I believe a particular thing that is foundational yet not supported in scripture,  then I will try to find ways to get other precepts to fit upon that foundation...whether it does or not.  I've done it MANY times.  Again though, the Word needs to change me...if it's something that doesn't make sense to my carnal mind, I need to humble myself and take it to God in prayer and let HIM have the final say. Again, I'll just say that God takes credit for bringing both difficulty and healing...do I argue with Him, or do I say "OK Lord, I believe, help my unbelief...help me understand".  I personally still have many lessons to learn.

Jab the scriptures do reconcile with one another from my point of view.

No one would put forth something if they did not see the scriptures recouncilling will one another.

Even those who beleive in ET think the scripture reconcil with ET.

You may not be able to reconcile the scripture from my point of view bro, but thats why we discuss these things.

I put forth what I see, if of God, He will water it and it will bring forth fruit.

Now here the thing bro, some here are seeing what I see and some meet me half way in what I see, so even if I don't understand it all there is something to what I am seeing else some would not see it and other would not meet what I see half way.

I don't know what way the wind will blow brother, but I trust God to work out all the wrinkles.

[sheila]

Pneuma and Zeek

  you can take that all the way back to the garden..

  and the commands God gave to A&E..a command unto life

  that they should not partake of death[tokogae]

  they was innocent lambs too, til a false-prophet arrived

and eve was deceived..and led to partake of that which brought

death.

   Mercy triumphs over judgement[tokogae] or that promised

  seed wouldn't have been prophesied about by GOD.

  the serpents seed 'bruises' the heel [earth,God's foot-stool/flesh]

   'the womans seed would crush the serpents head beneath his heel

[IceDash]

Pneuma and Zeek

  you can take that all the way back to the garden..

  and the commands God gave to A&E..a command unto life

  that they should not partake of death[tokogae]

  they was innocent lambs too, til a false-prophet arrived

and eve was deceived..and led to partake of that which brought

death.

   Mercy triumphs over judgement[tokogae] or that promised

  seed wouldn't have been prophesied about by GOD.

  the serpents seed 'bruises' the heel [earth,God's foot-stool/flesh]

   'the womans seed would crush the serpents head beneath his heel

God didn't warn eve about the snake, so I wouldn't called that 'decieved" Adam and Eve didn't know better

[sheila]

 ID

   the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.

    he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it

   or, you could say he was a lying spirit

[IceDash]

ID

   the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.

    he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it

   or, you could say he was a lying spirit

Would it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?

[Cardinal]

ID

   the false-prophet was the serpent who deceived Eve.

    he took the word of God in his mouth and kinda rearranged it

   or, you could say he was a lying spirit

:cloud9: Or you could say that his tongue was cleft (split so couldn't hit the mark) and he didn't chew the cud (Word) and just hissed (hiss means to whisper as opposed to God coming with a shout, ie. RAISED voice) it out.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

[sheila]

 :grin  pretty good!

  I have this scripture in mind and can't lay my hand on it.

  It is about something that transpires in heaven..and someone comes from the left and say, I will become a lying spirit..and so he will fall.

   any of you know where that is?

     thanks,Sheila

[CHB]

Is this what you were thinking of?  (1Kings 22:19-23)

CHB

[jabcat]

Whatever any of our differences of doctrine/understanding in this area may be, I think we all pretty much agree that even though many of God's ways are past finding out;
He IS love;
He will ultimately bring about what's absolutely best for us (our trials here won't compare to the glory);
and He is Lord of heaven and earth!

Good News!

[bobf]

:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning?  if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death.  For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all.  It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards".  The commandment if obeyed would lead to life.  There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.

I believe that all these verses below applied as much to Adam as they did to Paul.  All die in Adam.  It is not just a problem of having sinned it is a problem of BEING a sinner.

Romans 7:11-20

• 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
• 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
• 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
• 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
• 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
• 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
• 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
• 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good.  And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me".  No, no sin dwelled in Adam.  He sinned in a different way than we all sin.

Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?

[Molly]

Would it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?

The two trees were in the holy of holies, in the midst of the garden, which is where Adam and Eve stood while Eve [unsuccessfully] debated the serpent.


...the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

--Gen 2

[bobf]

Arrrg just when I thought we were getting close :winkgrin:

Sorry...  I was working from starting point of agreement as a practical matter though I believe that God intended Christ to die from the very beginning.  I worked from AFTER man sinned to prove that evil occuring (Christ's death) can be part of God's plan and God does more than just weave evil into good.

You see Gods PLAN/WAY was always through death unto life, that God planned for Adam to sin through disobedience so that Christ would come and die for us, and that Christ death was God PLAN/WAY for us from the beginning.

Yes.

First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Which Paul calls the "ministration of death, written and egraven on stone" and which Paul says WAS TO BE done away with.

God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.

Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

You are mixing together the letter and the spirit as if the shadow and the reality are one and the same.  Chirst's sacrifice was the perfect example of obedience, love, and mercy.  That is exactly the sacrifice God desires, desired, and will desire.  The sacrifices that God did not desire were the outward sacrifices, the shadows of what Christ did.  You have lumped both the shadow and the very image under one label "sacrifice"

Sacrifices, offerings, tithes, circumcision, etc. are all shadows of righteousness typifying real inward righteousness.  God does not desire any of the shadows but God does desire the very image.

For example:
God does not desire physical circumcision.  God desires & requires circumcision of the heart.
God does not desire us to obserive a physical days like the weekly Sabbath.  God desires and requires us to cease our own works of the flesh and enter into His rest.
God does not desire us to kill the best of animal we have.  God desires and requires that we give up what we love the most to follow Him.
God does not desire us to phsycially sacrifice.  God desires and requires that we present our bodies a living sacrifice.

Jesus Christ came to show us the Father by living out the righthand side of the above list.

Greater LOVE hath no man than this, to LAY HIS LIFE DOWN for his brothers.  There is no greater love than Christ's sacrifice.  But God did not desire it?
Jesus Christ was OBEDIENT unto death.  Christ's sacrifice was perfect obedience.  But God did not desire it?

What you are essentially saying is that God did not want sacrifice originally, but after man sinned, God made a second-best provision to save man and then God starting wanting sacrifice.

Not true at all.  God still did not want sacrifice even when Jesus was walking on the earth.  Jesus while on earth even quotes the verse that says God does not want sacrifice.

• Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Christ was reproving the pharisees because they specialized in fulfilling the shadows & outward sacrifices will ommiting the sacrifice God truly desired.

Again, Hosea 6:6 was still true when Christ walked on the earth.  If you use that verse to prove that God did not want to sacrifice His Son then God did not want to sacrifice His Son when Christ walked on earth.

God did not desire the sacrifice & offerings of the pharisees but God did desire Christ's sacrifice and offering.  Those two sacrifices & offerings are miles apart.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hey, Molly.......the midst of the garden is the inner court (midst of the tabernacle pattern) where the table of shewbread and the candlestick were......

[reFORMer]

It has been said that the devil, unable to overcome Adam, struck at Eve, the weaker vessel, in order to take down Adam.  But really, is it not true that, "The lesser is overcome by the greater?"  Much has been made of Adam as head of Eve, ruling her as a head over a body.  But, Adam is head of Eve, as source, like the head-waters of the Nile is where the river originates.  Look at the Eden story again.

Day after day God made increasingly complicated life forms.  From inanimate things to plants, from fish to the higher animals, and finally He made man, the crown of His creation.  But wait, He actually went a step farther.  He made woman.  Adam was made from the dust of the earth; but, Eve was made from an already refined substance.  We are not told that the woman was called by a personal name until after the entrance of sin and death which overturned how God originally made things.

The creatures were brought before Adam to name.  This means he spoke a revelation of the nature, a sum of identity and a delineation of destiny of each beast.  To give such expression from within himself created within him the awareness for something to correspond with him.  "Yet for the human He does not find a helper as his compliment." (Gn 2:20, CLV)  God was defining a cultivated hunger, creating a specific emptiness that He would fill; like in God, where there had been only God, the little lamb was slain away from in order to make a place for something that was not God, a cosmos and its "casting down" (which was either its "lowering" out of the knowledge of God into manifestation, or, after initially being, here its "disruption" by the entrance of sin and death.)  This creation was as a womb by which God would create a vast family of beings like himself with whom to have intimate fellowship.  He put into a deep sleep the ultimate manifestation of Himself within it to bring forth from its side a bowed chamber that "is bone of my bone and flesh of His flesh."

Into that emptiness, that need we bring to Him to fill which we are unable to satisfy, He places something of Himself.  The seed that begins with the wonder of the love of God appearing within will ultimately become the victory that swallows down death, the measure of the stature of the fullness of His exact image and likeness in immortal reproduction.

It was out of love that Adam joined Eve, "...and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating." (Gn 3:6)  Out of love Christ joins the Church in death.

The door of perpetual entrance:
Matthew 5:3,10 . . .
"Happy (blessed,) in spirit ("even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead" Ja 2:26), are the poor (beggars who have nothing of their own, like an empty womb) for theirs (belong to them as their right and from them them as its source) is the kingdom of the heavens (which rules over all.)


your brother, James Rohde