The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[pneuma]

Jesus was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world  :mshock:

Which world bro? read my replies to Doc on this question.
I see it different then the norm, but that propably don't suprise you by now :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Ah, I remember seeing something about your POV on that...

For all,

I recommend Thomas Kissinger's Noble Berean for what I consider to be a good read on God's plan ... http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ ...he also sends out really nice little UR snippets to one's email if you register with him...very useful for sharing UR with others  :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

Then why does God not "weave" the child likewise into safety from the pedophile? God must have some good reason.  God CHOSES not to weave the child into safety in many cases.

Bob I can't give you any other answer than I already have, Like I have said over and over I don't have all the answers and can only give what Light has been given me.

So explain why God planned for the child to be in the hands of a pedophle, and what good He planned it for?

[IceDash]

these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:

[jabcat]

these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:

I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I  chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic.  Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:

[pneuma]

these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:

Hi ID although there is relevence to freewill, freewill is NOT the focus, and that makes that difference. although the mods are free to do as they see fit.

[bobf]

Bob you are mixing them up brother, every time you bring Christ death into the equasion you are speaking of what took place AFTER mans disobedience.  God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.

Scott I already addressed that a few posts ago when I said "at any time" here:

"According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur at any time it would be evil."

By "at any time" I was referring specifically to before the fall or after the fall.

Even if God did not originally intend for Christ to die (which I don't believe but ok) God later did intend for Christ to die since it says God sent Christ into the world for the very purpose of DYING for our sins.  God did not just weave it into good after Christ's unintended death.  God intended for Him to die, be crucified, be murdered.  That was evil being played out that God intended.

[jabcat]

And ID, that was a quick judgment call, I'll look at it some more and compare and think about some things...you've probably got some good questions and statements, that if carefully stated will fit in this topic.

[CHB]

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.

Hi Pneuma,

It sounds like you are saying it was all up to us as to whether Christ was crucified? It sounds like you are saying, God was helpless and had no other choice because man defeated God's will?

I believe this life with all the good and bad is a learning experience that God intended from the beginning. It is God's way of teaching   us things while in the flesh that otherwise we wouldn't know. When we experience evil and God rescues us, or turns things around,  we learn of God's mercy, compassion. Because God gave us evil, and we suffer sometimes, we will learn forgiveness by forgiving God. God forgives us and we forgive God, we become one.

I don't think any of us will know all there is to know on this while in the flesh.

CHB

[pneuma]

Bob you are mixing them up brother, every time you bring Christ death into the equasion you are speaking of what took place AFTER mans disobedience.  God did NOT want to sacrifice His son brother, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.

Scott I already addressed that a few posts ago when I said "at any time" here:

"According to your reasoning, if God intended evil to occur at any time it would be evil."

By "at any time" I was referring specifically to before the fall or after the fall.

Even if God did not originally intend for Christ to die (which I don't believe but ok) God later did intend for Christ to die since it says God sent Christ into the world for the very purpose of DYING for our sins.  God did not just weave it into good after Christ's unintended death.  God intended for Him to die, be crucified, be murdered.  That was evil being played out that God intended.

Again bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.

ONE is God Plan/way BEFORE disobedience and death, the other is God provison AFTER disobedience and death.

You cannot say they are both Gods plan/way for one follows obedience to life and the other follows disobedience to death.

My WAYS are NOT your WAYS.

What was MANS WAY?

Disobedience and death

and God says that is NOT His WAY.

[bobf]

Bob I can't give you any other answer than I already have, Like I have said over and over I don't have all the answers and can only give what Light has been given me.

So explain why God planned for the child to be in the hands of a pedophle, and what good He planned it for?

My answer is I don't know what God's reason is.  I trust that God has a good reason.  That's the extent of my anwser.  I trust that God knows what He's doing.

Why do I think God has a good reason?

God certainly SEES the child about to become a victim.
- A sparrow can not fall to the ground apart from the Father.

God certainly CAN save the child.
- Jesus could have called on angels to save Him.
- God saved the disciples from prison.  
- On other occaisons God did NOT save, e.g.  Stephen.

So where does that leave me?  It leaves me with God CHOOSES NOT to save the child.  To me that is the only honest answer.  If anyone has another answer I'd like to see it.

Also, part of my answer would also be tied up in "Fear not them who can destroy the body."

We probably place way to much importance on our life in the flesh.  When with God in His kingdom looking back I suspect that the spiritual work God has performed in us will FAR FAR outweigh the value we place on our lives in the flesh.

[IceDash]

these thread gotta be locked if we get into it, like mine.... :sigh:

I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I  chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic.  Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:

Sorry I didn't know the free wills stuff is a problem, I didn't see warning about it guess I have to be more careful of what i said before thing get too hot, anyway

[bobf]

Again bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.

Then do you agree that God's provision after man's disobedience includes intending evil to take place?  e.g. Christ's crucifixion?

[Zeek]

Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)

[bobf]

I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I  chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic.  Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:

Thanks... me & Scott are not going to get mad at each other.  Yeah I called one point "hand waving" which I felt bad saying but I also felt the need to say and I appreciate Scotts honesty too when he tells me like he sees it without mincing words.

[pneuma]

Hi Pneuma,

It sounds like you are saying it was all up to us as to whether Christ was crucified? It sounds like you are saying, God was helpless and had no other choice because man defeated God's will?

No man cannot defeat God will sis, Gods will is for ALL to be obedient and ALL will. But the scriptures I posted show that God did NOT want SACRIFICE He wanted obedience. And sacrifice only came about because of disobedience.

I believe this life with all the good and bad is a learning experience that God intended from the beginning. It is God's way of teaching   us things while in the flesh that otherwise we wouldn't know. When we experience evil and God rescues us, or turns things around,  we learn of God's mercy, compassion. Because God gave us evil, and we suffer sometimes, we will learn forgiveness by forgiving God. God forgives us and we forgive God, we become one.

I know you and other believe it after this fashion sis, I just see it differently.

I don't think any of us will know all there is to know on this while in the flesh.

I don't claim to have all the answer sis, I have said repeatedly that I can only give what light is given me.

[IceDash]

Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)

I think God is talking about the animal sacrifice that he doesn't want it anymore from israel in Isisah also.

Interesting, after God save the Israel from the slavery of eypty, Mose lead them out, they learn everything what their's old gods like "RA" is a fearful god, If God arrive with love, they will not fear him because They believe God should be mean and tough so God gave them one by arrive with boom and thunderstorm in the mountain, and they was scared %^$& out of their's life and ask Moses to tell God to stay far away from them but Moses said not to be afraid of them

Did you know that Moses and his priest have a picnic with God "HIMSELF" sitting with them, eating and laughing on the top of the mountain, DID YA KNOW THAT?!

[bobf]

Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)

Can you add a comment to that?  I don't see cleary the point you are making.  My guess is that you are pointing out that God did not intend Christ to be crucified originally but that's just a guess.

[Zeek]

Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)

Can you add a comment to that?  I don't see cleary the point you are making.  My guess is that you are pointing out that God did not intend Christ to be crucified originally but that's just a guess.

that's what i'm thinking.  But then again, i got a lot going on in my brain.  I am, without taking this post too far off topic, don't see how "agape" love requires the brutal sacrifice of a son. 

[IceDash]

Did you know that God "HIMSELF" bury moses in the ground after he died

That's how much he love all of us, he bury moses because moses couldn't touch the promised land and it pain God

This is what I see in my mind what it look like:

Moses look on his people walking into the promised land, while God himself standing next to Moses, "You will, Moses, just not now until i return" said God, putting his hand on Moses's shoulder to ease his fear of losing his life and dying, as Moses dying (God cry) Moses ask, "Will you save me from destruction?" as Moses's eye heavy into sleeping, God answer, "Don't worry, I already have, I love you and the moment you sleep, you will wake up in just a second, while I must wait for you"

moses die, God cry bitter and bury him himself



That how God love us all. how touching....

[pneuma]

Again bro that was NOT Gods plan/way from the beginning, thus it is a provision God used AFTER mans disobedience to save man OUT OF DEATH.

Then do you agree that God's provision after man's disobedience includes intending evil to take place?  e.g. Christ's crucifixion?

AFTER the fact, maybe I can agree but need to think more on that because of your use of the word intending. But if you use it as Gods provision and not as Gods PLAN/WAY I think we might be getting close to agreement.

[pneuma]

Hos 6:6 For I desire and delight in dutiful steadfast love and goodness, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of and acquaintance with God more than burnt offerings.(2)

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, [9] readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).(1)

:thumbsup:

[pneuma]

I agree, and I've been watching it...there were a couple of comments made early on that I  chose :laughing7: to let slide, but has mostly steered more into some specific issues without just specifically fighting over that "other" topic.  Please participate here, as we all try to keep it edifying vs. "we've got free will"/"no we don't, scum"... :laughing7:

Thanks... me & Scott are not going to get mad at each other.  Yeah I called one point "hand waving" which I felt bad saying but I also felt the need to say and I appreciate Scotts honesty too when he tells me like he sees it without mincing words.

I agree with Bob here, what might look like we are getting mad at each other is not really the case, we are both just speaking plainly to one another without the butter on the bread.

[bobf]

AFTER the fact, maybe I can agree but need to think more on that because of your use of the word intending. But if you use it as Gods provision and not as Gods PLAN/WAY I think we might be getting close to agreement.

I would not use the word "way" because that is tied to "I am the way" and phrases like this is the "way to be" which the crucifixion of Christ was obviously not a good way to be.  The act and the hearts of those carrying out the act were no way in harmony with God's will, it was an act of hatred and murder.

I believe it was God's will, wish, want, desire, intention, plan for Christ to be crucified.  Not in any way shape or form for the evil itself (God is completely against that) but for the sake of showing us the Father, showing us what "love your enemies" really entails, how far it goes.  None of that could have been on full display apart from Christ's crucifixion actually taking place.  I do believe Christ's death was a provision but not in the sense that God had hoped things would turn out differently.

I use the word intention to distinguish between what God wills to happen from God's ultimate will for mankind & what God approves of.  God commanded pharoah to do one thing yet God worked against His own command.

[bobf]

I agree with Bob here, what might look like we are getting mad at each other is not really the case, we are both just speaking plainly to one another without the butter on the bread.

:icon_flower:  Thanks bro! :HeartThrob: