The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :laughing7:

[pneuma]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.

:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....

:thumbsup: cool I have kicked that thought around for awhile now, seem the Father may have been quitely speaking to other on it as well. :icon_flower:

[pneuma]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.

:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....

Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?

:laughing7: so much for making it a email topic. Don't worry about taking the thread off topic I never mind a topic going where the Lord would have it go.

[Doc]

What's frightening is that what we're talking about is strikingly similar to
this:  http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/Cults/Mormon/Lucifer.htm

I'm not sure if some of the scriptural description of the angels who left their first estate quite fit us as believers, but maybe I'm wrong; I haven't really looked into it yet.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....

[sheila]

   Hi Guys

  I beleive our corruptible bodies of sin ,of which the spirit of

disobediance was operative in...represent the true fallen angels.

 they are shown 'alike' in the following respects....

  thrown out of heaven..thrown out of the garden

  sought to be like God..covet his Throne.

  I see our 'nakedness' as our vulnerability to corruption...

  and it more or less served as 'bait' for satan.he could manifest

 himself in our temple[body] which rightfully belongs to God

and is for HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN thus the coveting of God's

throne in heaven and earth[coveting another man's wife]

 when satan was in heaven he dwelt in an incorruptible

heavenly vessel...he sought a vessel that he could do his

corrupt works in...thus through intrigue and deceit he 'stole' the

vessels of mankind for his own and own use.

 And used these vessels to bring forth his own evil seed.

Adam was rightly given sovereignty of the earth as a secound

angel. But God

would NOT give HIS GLORY to another[namely satan]

  satan did not know what death was...the sentence of death

 of the corruptible dust vessel has shown satan what will

happen to him.

 so in a sense we are a fallen secound angel..the angels that were to keep the garden on earth...our message is to put to death the works of satan and reject his evil reign..but

 exercize mercy to the family of Adam..who were robbed and
are as stolen temple vessels unto the Lord. We preach the
coming time of total restoration of these temple vessels
unto the LORD. and annhilation to the kingdom of darkness
unto mankind.

 the scripture in Daniel comes to mind..Mene mene tekel

 and parsin..it is God who decides who rules...and the reign was given to Jesus Christ..who bought the temple vessels back
by His own blood...a SON OF MAN the PROMISED SEED
who crushed the head[mind/thought] of the serpent

[Cardinal]

Don't worry about taking the thread off topic I never mind a topic going where the Lord would have it go.

:cloud9: Me either, pneuma. If a thread goes on and on and on, it's STILL the Lord working out something in someone (or someones) to His good pleasure, is the way I look at it.

And maybe we should do a little digging on that fallen angel topic since He seems to have been broaching the subject with a few? Blessings....

[pneuma]

:cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....

I agree, but also beleive because Christ is the light in all men that men sometimes give forth light without even realising it.

I have not read the link either, so they could be way off track, just an observation in general.

[Cardinal]

I agree, but also beleive because Christ is the light in all men that men sometimes give forth light without even realising it.

:cloud9: I agree pneuma......

Good post Sheila.....I'll have to think on that.....

[pneuma]

  Hi Guys

  I beleive our corruptible bodies of sin ,of which the spirit of

disobediance was operative in...represent the true fallen angels.

 they are shown 'alike' in the following respects....

  thrown out of heaven..thrown out of the garden

  sought to be like God..covet his Throne.

  I see our 'nakedness' as our vulnerability to corruption...

  and it more or less served as 'bait' for satan.he could manifest

 himself in our temple[body] which rightfully belongs to God

and is for HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN thus the coveting of God's

throne in heaven and earth[coveting another man's wife]

 when satan was in heaven he dwelt in an incorruptible

heavenly vessel...he sought a vessel that he could do his

corrupt works in...thus through intrigue and deceit he 'stole' the

vessels of mankind for his own and own use.

 And used these vessels to bring forth his own evil seed.

Adam was rightly given sovereignty of the earth as a secound

angel. But God

would NOT give HIS GLORY to another[namely satan]

  satan did not know what death was...the sentence of death

 of the corruptible dust vessel has shown satan what will

happen to him.

 so in a sense we are a fallen secound angel..the angels that were to keep the garden on earth...our message is to put to death the works of satan and reject his evil reign..but

 exercize mercy to the family of Adam..who were robbed and
are as stolen temple vessels unto the Lord. We preach the
coming time of total restoration of these temple vessels
unto the LORD. and annhilation to the kingdom of darkness
unto mankind.

 the scripture in Daniel comes to mind..Mene mene tekel

 and parsin..it is God who decides who rules...and the reign was given to Jesus Christ..who bought the temple vessels back
by His own blood...a SON OF MAN the PROMISED SEED
who crushed the head[mind/thought] of the serpent

Shelia, some of that I agree with, and some I;'ll have to pray and think on

Thanks for posting it.

[Doc]

:cloud9: I haven't looked at what you've posted here yet Doc, but there has to be a counterfeit out there somewhere for every truth God has, because the wheat and the tares are raised up together. So seeing something similar doesn't freak me out at all; if anything it is only a "backwards" witness that causes me to press in more for the truth He wants me to see. Blessings....

Yeah, I realize that there are going to be counterfeits, and it was kind of a tongue-in-cheek post anyway.

There are some things about the scriptural description of the angels who left their first estate that doesn't quite seem to fit, so it's just something I'm going to have to dig into more and ask for more revelation on, that's all I'm saying. At least, where this has gone is not quite what I had in mind when I posted what I did earlier in the thread. I think it's worth talking through, though. I'm always eager for new insight.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Me too! Blessings....

[claypot]

I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.

Just some things to think about.

Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well?  I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours.  I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before.  I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.

Doc, I too see this as you so eloquently described.

cp

[sheila]

   I beleive we are little 'peices' of Him,too.

    I beleive we were all in the nursery in heaven before he sent

   us down.  Any of you ever go to the Nasa site and see the

   astronomy pictures of the day? the stellar'star' nurseries

  just alway amaze me

     Sheila

[Doc]

Thanks, claypot and sheila (and the rest of you). It's good to know I'm not the lone ranger on this stuff, and that as I believe Cardinal put it, not having to wonder (as much) am I going crazy? At least if I am, I'm not the only one.  :laughing7:

Cardinal said something that was in my original thought in the "going out on a limb" post, but I didn't actually end up writing it. The bit about remembering who we are. From a scriptural perspective it just seems so off base, but I can't help the feeling that the whole process of salvation, being perfected, being revealed as sons; all of our spiritual development is tied into that thought: We're not becoming something we weren't already, we're just gradually remembering who we are (who we were made to be).

I'm looking forward to this discussion continuing.

[pneuma]

Hi All, I hope you guys continue these thoughts also, but for the next few days I will not be able to participate as I have some tests comming up and need to study for them, but will post when given some time.

God bless

[Cardinal]

We're not becoming something we weren't already, we're just gradually remembering who we are (who we were made to be).

:cloud9: Well, as I said before, that's what He said to me 23 years ago. He said so many things back then and I had no clue what the heck He was talking about. I just never forgot them, figuring in time He would show me. And I have seen many of them come back to witness to me over the years, as I understood more. Blessings....

PS. pneuma, be blessed with those tests! See you when you return.... :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Remembering who we used to be . .. Doc, you've done it again.

This is what I believe is the foremost plan of God for this day and age.  There has been a changing of the guard since the sun/Son has set on the 6th day (works-based thinking) and the Sabbath day is now dawning . . .and this day is not like the previous 6 days.  This day all the laws of labor are suspended.  This day the natural reasoning comes to an end, and personal revelation takes the stage.  And the beauty of personal revelation is . . .even though there are millions and even billions of people . . .the revelation is ONE.

We are being returned to our original state . . .where our identity is not in our appearance or our abilities, but our identity is in our creator.  For us to return to this understanding, we must return to the source from which it comes .  . the only tree in the garden that produced light . . .the tree of life.  We ourselves are not what's lost . . .it's our identity that's lost.  We lost our identity in who we are.  And that's what Christ came to save . . .the reason I see myself as a sinner is because I've lost my true self.  It's not who I thought it once was.  My identity is not me, my looks, my personality, my actions or abilities . . .my identity is my Creator . . .and because I lost that . . .my Creator sent his Son to save what I've lost.


Luke 19
9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.  10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

[chuckt]

We are being returned to our original state

this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?

see my point? wasnt adam OF the earth? (( from below ))  will we not be made BETTER? in the likness of the  heavenly ?

chuckt dont like dirt.

peace

[Cardinal]

chuckt dont like dirt.

:cloud9:  :grin: Me, neither, I'm tired of dragging around this dirt suit.  :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

We are being returned to our original state

this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?

Here is how I kind of see that.   we do not really have the words to describe the state of God, the state of something that has always existed.   The best we can do is just know that God is and thats as much understand as we can have.

This is why I do not like the trinity doctrine (please no debates over it, just bear with me!!!!)
It is not that I do not see the concept of a oneness of God, Jesus, holy spirit, has nothing to do with whether that is possible.

It has to do with whether we are truly different from God in the respect that when God is all in all  then there is no trinity, there is ALL.

For instance, on a purely physical analogy,  lets say you were the first human to be perfected.   Then instead of the "trinity" IE "God in three persons"  there is now 4 persons in one  (just to explain the words often used in the trinty).  God in 4 persons.

So returning to the original state could be a bit limiting, but the intent I believe is to say God is expanding as a family, so we come out of God which would be whatever his spirit actually is which there probably is no words for entirely.   We end up one with God,  so the original state "of what God is"  but perfect as a new creature, one with him.

[chuckt]

We are being returned to our original state

this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?

Here is how I kind of see that.   we do not really have the words to describe the state of God, the state of something that has always existed.   The best we can do is just know that God is and thats as much understand as we can have.

This is why I do not like the trinity doctrine (please no debates over it, just bear with me!!!!)
It is not that I do not see the concept of a oneness of God, Jesus, holy spirit, has nothing to do with whether that is possible.

It has to do with whether we are truly different from God in the respect that when God is all in all  then there is no trinity, there is ALL.

For instance, on a purely physical analogy,  lets say you were the first human to be perfected.   Then instead of the "trinity" IE "God in three persons"  there is now 4 persons in one  (just to explain the words often used in the trinty).  God in 4 persons.

So returning to the original state could be a bit limiting, but the intent I believe is to say God is expanding as a family, so we come out of God which would be whatever his spirit actually is which there probably is no words for entirely.   We end up one with God,  so the original state "of what God is"  but perfect as a new creature, one with him.

blasphemy :happy3:


yo paul, excellent, did yall ever notoce the word ""cool""

Click Verse for Commentary Notes
 
Ge 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 

Ruwach TWOT - 2131a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
roo'-akh    Noun Feminine 

Definition
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath wind 




my qusetion would be was adam ONE with God? i personally dont think so, he was still naked.


thoughts?

chuckt

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think he was one with God until he FELL. He walked with God in the cool of the day, that relates to every word (breath) that comes from the mouth of God, by which we live or have spirit life. This points back to the other discussion thread we got going, don't you think? Blessings....

[Nathan]

For me, the entire garden is "God" and in God is the law and life . . .they balance out each other. . .God created Adam out of this earth and "placed" him in the garden of the spirit.  He put him in himself . .and to do so . . .Adam was not in the same state that we are in now . . .he was predominantly spirit and invisibly flesh . . .just as now, we are predominantly flesh and invisibly spirit.  Adam is the one that reversed our make-up by misaligning with God . .but again, even that was for a purpose . .and it's likely that Adam was not aware of the over all purpose, but I can't say that as fact.

When I see me returning back to my original state, I see me back before the fall and the question is always there . . .if Adam fell . .what's going to keep us from falling . . .and my answer to that is . . Christ only needed to die once.

And by that I mean that this whole thing was planned not to bring redemption to man . . .but to bring glory to the Son.  And for glory to be brought to the Son . . .Man had to choose what he chose in order to bring about the events that would manifest that glory.

And because that has already been done and only necessary to be done once and for all . . .there is never any fear of it ever happening again.

Again . . .just my opinion from what I see now.

[Taffy]

:cloud9: I think he was one with God until he FELL. He walked with God in the cool of the day, that relates to every word (breath) that comes from the mouth of God, by which we live or have spirit life. This points back to the other discussion thread we got going, don't you think? Blessings....

:icon_flower:

Gen 2:25 they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


Neither ASHAMED of HIS words :cloud9:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed**

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

:icon_flower: