The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[bobf]

Christ sacrifice of Himself out of love is good.  The sacrifice of Christ by the people is not good.  One point finally down and we are in agreement.

Cool.

God knows what is in the hearts of men Bob, and knew the disobedience of Pharaoh was already in his heart. And God weaved that disobedience into something good.

But Scott, that's not the reason given in scripture for God hardening pharoah's heart.

But again when did these things happen Bob?  Was it BEFORE Adam's disobedience or AFTER?  This is what I am trying to get you to consider.  AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are very close in our understanding.

What does Adam's disobedience have to do with how God deals with pharoah? And how do you purpose we look at what God was thinking beofre Adam sinned?  There are a whole two chapters in the bible before Adam sinned.

You say God planned for Adam to be disobedient, and I disagree, God planned for Adam to be obedient.

What does it even mean to plan for something you KNOW will not happen?  Especially when you permit into your plan the very agents that will wreck your plan.  There is no way I can make heads or tails of that thought.

And it is this aspect we should be concentrating on.

Again, there are only about two chapters in the bible prior to Adam's sin.

Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death.  They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ.  Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world.  Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree?  NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone.  If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve.  Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this.  Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?

I agree with you here.  If Adam were laying down his life for Eve as Christ did for all mankind, Adam would not have been faulted by God.

Thus Gods plan for salvation and being made into His image and likeness was and has been always through obedience and not through disobedience.

I agree with that.  There is no salvation or being conformed in His image by being disobedient.  On the other hand Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered and He suffered them at the hands of disobedient people.

I don't know of any scripture that answers that question though.

Then why believe it brother?

Do you think it is possible that you cannot find any scriptures that answer that question because the scriptures actually say something else?

I didn't say I could not find any, I said I did not know of any  (I had just thought of that idea while posting my previous reply and did not know of any scriptures off the top of my head).

I know your reasoning and if you used that reasoning AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are basically in agreement. But when you take that reasoning all the way back to the beginning and say that disobedience was always in God plan, that God wanted Adam to be disobedient to show forth true love you attribute to God mans disobedience.

1. No I do not say God WANTED man to be disobedient, I say God INTENDED man to be disobedient.  If you can not see that differnce between those two you need only to consider that (a) God hardened pharoah's heart so he would not obey (b) God did not approve of pharoah's disobedience.... and (a) God told Satan he could harm Job (b) God did not approve of Satan harming Job...  and (a) God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh  (b) God did not approve of the messengers of Satan...    It makes no difference whether these are before or after Adam sinned -- they still show God INTENDING something he did not APPROVE of.

2. I attribute man's weakness and corruptibility to God but I do not blame God.  I try to be thankful that God made me thus.  I trust God knows what He is doing.

Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself

What are mans ways?

Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?

Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?

Those verses show that God's ways (the way God acts) are righteous leading to life and man's ways (the way man acts) are sinful and leading to death.

I have been showing you examples of God's ways and you keep saying "that's AFTER Adam sinned" which is a way to discount them as something less than God's primary ways.

Here is another example of God's ways.  A corn of wheat must die in order to bear fruit.

• John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.  25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal

So just maybe Christ had to die from the beginning in order to bear fruit after His kind (i.e. His image).  After all, from Genesis 1 (before Adam sinned) we had the physical example of corn yielding seed to reproduce it's kind.

God approved of His plan for man to be disobedient, but God did not approve man's disobedience.  Those two are not one and the same.  There are two hearts & intentions going on there.  God's and man's.  God approved of what He was doing, not of what man was doing.

And again I ask for scripture that states where God says He approves of disobedience in any fashion, whether it be His plan or any other point.

Scott, I just said (bolded above) that God did not approve of man's disobedience so I do not need to find a scripture to prove something I don't believe.  What I said was that God approves of His plans which included disobedience.   I have already given examples of God's plans that included disobedience (e.g. God hardened pharoah's heart) and obviously God approves of His own plans.

Also you are here again trying to let the mob boss off the hook and lay the blame on the hitman.

No, God and Satan were not doing anything remotely like each other towards Job.  God was not the "mob bos" and Satan was not the "hit man" even though God told Satan to go ahead.

If God planned for man to be disobedient then God is responsible for every disobedient thing that comes from the heart of man.

God planned for pharoah to be disobedient.  There's no if's about it.  So you must either believe that God is responsible for everything that came from pharoah's heart or you do not believe that God planned for him to be disobedient.

Therefore how can God disapprove of what man does through disobedience when disobedience was God's plan?

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The answer is given in verses 21 & 22.

You want to believe they are two separate things Bob but ultimately the buck has to stop with God.

They absolutely are two separate things because there are two separate minds & wills making choices: God's and man's.  The buck stops at God regarding what God chooses to do according to His will.  The buck stops at man regarding what man chooses to do according to his will.

Jesus told Judas to GO DO what he was going to do.  So Jesus intended for Judas to go do it.  Does that mean Jesus approved of what Judas was about to do?  Of course not.  Does that mean Jesus was the mob boss and Judas' was the hitman?  Does that mean the buck stops with Jesus and not Judas?

An example from scripture: God approved of His plan to try Job.  God approved of His plan to tell Satan to go and harm Job.  But God did not approve of Satan's heart in doing so.

Two things here Bob, first, this was AFTER Adam's disobedience not BEFORE. And whether you can see it or not that makes a difference.

No, I don't see how Adam's disobedience becomes a reason for God to take an obedient man like Job and send "evil incarnate" after him.   If you think you see how Adam's sin makes a difference for obedient Job then please explain it.

What I see is a pattern of God trying the faith of the obedient people at the hands of the disobedient people.  I see it being a requirement to enter the kingdom of God.  Now please tell me how or why the actions of the disobedient managed to create a requirement upon the obedient to suffer and endure their evil.

The second thing is Job is a hard book to understand for God also says to satan "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".  This would indicate that God did not plan to try Job, but did so at the instigation of satan.

The book of Job is hard to accept, but the basic premise is not hard to understand.  God took a righteous and obedient man and tried his faith with evil. Those are God's ways Scott. If it were only the book of Job I'd maybe wonder about it.  But it's a story repeated throughout scripture.

Why would Satan moving God against Job indicate God did not plan it? That is a statement about what Satan was trying to do, not a statement about what Satan was succeeding in doing.  Satan is evil.  Satan was up to evil.  God can not be tempted by evil.

Because of mans disobedience death entered the world, the only way God could then save his children was to send His son into death to save them out of it.

Unless God had made Adam incorruptible.  Then there would have been no problem.  It seems then that God's plan was to make man corruptible and later incorruptible.  First the natural man, then the spiritual man.

So yes, if I had billions of sons in death I would ask my oldest son to enter into death to save them, but that does not mean I wanted to send my oldest son into death.

And what if the only way to fashion Sons in God's image was to have them overcome evil with good by seeing and following Christ

Our scenarios differ on this point brother, you believe God planned and wanted to sacrifice His son from the very beginning...

I thought we got past the issue of God wanting to sacrifice Christ.  I do not say God wanted to sacrifice His Son any more than you do.   I do say that God wanted from the beginning for His Son to lay down His life for us.

Which scenario show forth the love of God brother...

Only in my scenario is the love of God on display as part of God's plan.  The Word was made flesh and we beheld His glory.  When Christ gave up His life on the cross, Christ called that His glory.

• John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

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• John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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• John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world

So what you are saying Scott, is that God never intended to show us His glory.

...yours that state God planned disobedience and death so that He could send His son into death in order to save us.

To create us in His image which also included saving us from sin.

Or God not wanting to send His son into death, but did it anyway,  because man by disobedience entered into death God sent His son into death to save us.

Again, I don't believe God wanted to send His Son to die for it's own sake.

For me there is no love shown in the plan that God wanted man dead just so He could save man( to much like a puppet on a string)...

But that's not what I believe.

...but much love is shown in that because of mans disobedience God sent His son to enter into death to save man. Thus showing God responding to man out of love for man.

I agree with that reason as well.

[pneuma]

myQuote
God knows what is in the hearts of men Bob, and knew the disobedience of Pharaoh was already in his heart. And God weaved that disobedience into something good.

But Scott, that's not the reason given in scripture for God hardening pharoah's heart.

I believe that the scriptures do bare this out Bob, as God knows the intent of all men's hearts and weaves within that frame. Does God not have foreknowledge of all these things? Therefore, did God not know that Pharaoh would harden his heart and; therefore, weaved that disobedience into something good?

What does Adam's disobedience have to do with how God deals with pharoah? And how do you purpose we look at what God was thinking beofre Adam sinned?  There are a whole two chapters in the bible before Adam sinned.

Because after Adams disobedience God deals with sons of disobedience, but before Adam was disobedient God dealt with man as sons of God. We have more than the two chapters Bob, we have Gods character, Gods nature, Gods love, Gods ways etc. That must be considered. Thus we can glean that obedience is Gods way from the very beginning.


myQuote
You say God planned for Adam to be disobedient, and I disagree, God planned for Adam to be obedient.

What does it even mean to plan for something you KNOW will not happen?  Especially when you permit into your plan the very agents that will wreck your plan.  There is no way I can make heads or tails of that thought.

Freedom of choice bro, just because God knew before hand that Adam would be disobedient does not mean God planned for man to be disobedient. If God planned for man to be disobedient then He has absolutely no right to punish man for their disobedience because He would then be the one responsible for man's disobedience. 

Question: is Gods ways/plans (or whatever else word you want to use) for man obedience? If you answer yes to that question I don't see how you can believe that Gods ways/plans would lead through disobedience unto obedience.


myQuote
Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death.  They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ.  Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world.  Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree?  NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone.  If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve.  Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this.  Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?

I agree with you here.  If Adam were laying down his life for Eve as Christ did for all mankind, Adam would not have been faulted by God.

I'll come back to this point.


myQuote
Thus Gods plan for salvation and being made into His image and likeness was and has been always through obedience and not through disobedience.

I agree with that.  There is no salvation or being conformed in His image by being disobedient.  On the other hand Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered and He suffered them at the hands of disobedient people.


I don't believe Christ learned obedience to the Father by suffering from the hands of disobedient men. His suffering came in the same as ours is to come in via the laying down of our own lives that the Father might live through us. Sure He suffered at the hand of disobedient men, but that suffering was NOT how He learned obedience to the Father.


myQuote
I know your reasoning and if you used that reasoning AFTER Adam's disobedience I think we are basically in agreement. But when you take that reasoning all the way back to the beginning and say that disobedience was always in God plan, that God wanted Adam to be disobedient to show forth true love you attribute to God mans disobedience.

1. No I do not say God WANTED man to be disobedient, I say God INTENDED man to be disobedient.

in•tend•ed
1)   Envisioned
aimed at or designed for somebody or something• our intended destination

2)   Planned
planned for the future • an intended visit


3)   Deliberate
said or done deliberately • an intended insult

No matter how you look at it Bob you are saying God planned and designed for mans disobedience.

If you can not see that differnce between those two you need only to consider that (a) God hardened pharoah's heart so he would not obey

God by foreknowledge knows what man will do correct? Then how do you know that God did not know that Pharaoh would harden his heart and use that foreknowledge to weave good out of it?

(b) God did not approve of pharoah's disobedience.... and

The carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. Thus Pharaoh was not subject to Gods commandment to let His people go. 

(a) God told Satan he could harm Job (b) God did not approve of Satan harming Job...  and

although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".

Does not sound like God told Satan He could harm Job to me.

(a) God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh  (b) God did not approve of the messengers of Satan...    It makes no difference whether these are before or after Adam sinned -- they still show God INTENDING something he did not APPROVE of.

Do you know what the messenger of satan is? Unless we know what it is than we cannot make any comparisons from it. The law is satan to us, and it is this to which Paul delivered one to the destruction of the flesh. IMO the law is the messenger that God sent to Paul so that Paul would not be puffed up in the FLESH by the revelations given to him. God intended this and approved of it, for the law is ordained unto immortal life, by the destruction of the life of the flesh.

2. I attribute man's weakness and corruptibility to God but I do not blame God.  I try to be thankful that God made me thus.  I trust God knows what He is doing.

While Jesus said the Devil sowed the tares among the wheat Bob and I trust He knows what He was talking about.


mQuote
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Think on these two scriptures before the Lord brother and ask yourself

What are mans ways?

Does not the scriptures tell us that mans ways are the ways of DEATH? And that mans ways are NOT Gods ways?

Therefore do they not show that disobedience/death is not the path/way that God planned for man to walk?

Those verses show that God's ways (the way God acts) are righteous leading to life and man's ways (the way man acts) are sinful and leading to death.

Bob it is MORE than the way God and man act, although that is also a part of it.

Ezekiel 18:25-29
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

Ezekiel 33:17-20
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

God's ways are all EQUAL, it is mans ways that are unequal and God says He will judge everyone after their own ways.
By your belief bro you are making the ways of God unequal for you find in the ways of God disobedience.  God neither planned nor intended disobedience for disobedience is the WAYS of man. I don't know how much planner I can make this Bob, scripture will have to suffice.
Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[pneuma]

I have been showing you examples of God's ways and you keep saying "that's AFTER Adam sinned" which is a way to discount them as something less than God's primary ways.

And I believe your are misapprehending what God is showing in those scriptures. I have shown you scripture that says things contrary to what you are seeing. We both probably agree that scripture does not contradict each other; therefore, it is our understanding of what the scriptures are saying that makes the contradiction. We have both given scripture, but the scripture I have given is very plainly spoken whereas the scriptures you have given are open to interpretation.

You have given scripture that says God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh to show that God plans these things but does not approve of what He planned, but those scriptures do NOT say God PLANNED it that way, so those scriptures are open to interpretation, and I already gave you how I see it. On the other hand I have given scripture that does not require interpretation. These scriptures are very plain.
Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Do you see these scriptures different then I do? Or are they very plainly understood? And if you see them differently please show why.

Here is another example of God's ways.  A corn of wheat must die in order to bear fruit.
•   John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.  25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal

So just maybe Christ had to die from the beginning in order to bear fruit after His kind (i.e. His image).  After all, from Genesis 1 (before Adam sinned) we had the physical example of corn yielding seed to reproduce it's kind.

Now I'll take you back to the point I said I would go back to.
I said, and you agreed with.

Here is the problem with people looking at Adam and saying things like Adam gave up his life and followed Eve into death.  They are attributing something to Adam that should ONLY be attributed to Christ.  Adam may well have thought I have to eat in order to save Eve (there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is the way of death) so Adam ate from the tree and brought death into the world.  Now did Adam save Eve by being disobedient and eating of the tree?  NO, because through disobedience is not the way to save someone.  If Adam had of been obedient and lost his life/soul/eve he would have saved his life/soul/eve.  Thus, showing forth true love by laying down his life/soul/eve through obedience and greater love has no man then this.  Therefore was it God want Adam to enter into death in order to save his life/soul/eve or was the commandment ordained unto life and God wanted Adam to lose his life/soul/eve in order to save it?

True death to the saving of the soul is giving up ones soul in order to save it. This is how the corn of wheat is to die that it might bare much fruit. It does NOT mean one has to enter into disobedience in order to die to bare much fruit. That thought is totally contrary to scripture.

Also Jesus NEVER died from the foundation of the old world, but rather from the foundation of the new world. He is not only our FOUNDATION stone but also the cap stone of the FOUNDATION.

Scott, I just said (bolded above) that God did not approve of man's disobedience so I do not need to find a scripture to prove something I don't believe.
What I said was that God approves of His plans which included disobedience.   I have already given examples of God's plans that included disobedience (e.g. God hardened pharoah's heart) and obviously God approves of His own plans.

Yes but you also have said God planned it all out so that man would be disobedient. Therefore God either planned it all out and disapproves of a part of His plan (mans disobedience) or He did not plan mans disobedience.
You cannot say God planned for man to be disobedient but did not approve of mans disobedience without saying God disapproves of a part of His plan. What you are trying to do is take God of the hook for mans disobedience even though you believe God planned for man to be disobedient. What you are saying is God plans mans ways and directs mans steps, but the scriptures say man plans his own ways but God directs his step. BIG DIFFERENCE bro.
 
myQuote
Also you are here again trying to let the mob boss off the hook and lay the blame on the hitman.

No, God and Satan were not doing anything remotely like each other towards Job.  God was not the "mob bos" and Satan was not the "hit man" even though God told Satan to go ahead.

But if God plan for satan to do all that satan did, satan is a tool that God used. Therefore, God is responsible for the tools in His hands.
Thus letting the mob boss of the hook and blaming the hit man.
You can't have it both ways bro, either God planned it all out or He did not, and if He planned it all out then He is responsible for every aspect of that plan.

myQuote
If God planned for man to be disobedient then God is responsible for every disobedient thing that comes from the heart of man.

God planned for pharoah to be disobedient.  There's no if's about it.  So you must either believe that God is responsible for everything that came from pharoah's heart or you do not believe that God planned for him to be disobedient.

I don't believe God planned for Pharaoh to be disobedient, Pharaohs disobedience was already in his heart because of the disobedience of Adam. God had foreknowledge of Pharaoh hardening his heart and weaved it into good.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The answer is given in verses 21 & 22.

Bob those are questions NOT statements; they are asking who has resisted Gods will?

According to your understanding the answer must be no one, but scripture bare out the total opposite of that thought, for they show that the disobedient have resisted His will.

It is NOT God will that any should perish, yet we know that people perish because of disobedience. Thus they have resisted the will of God.

Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Therefore we can see that the disobedient have resisted God's will and God molds the clay accordingly. God does not mar the clay brother the clay mars itself. Reread my opening post on this thread.


myQuote
You want to believe they are two separate things Bob but ultimately the buck has to stop with God.

They absolutely are two separate things because there are two separate minds & wills making choices: God's and man's.  The buck stops at God regarding what God chooses to do according to His will.  The buck stops at man regarding what man chooses to do according to his will.

That more along my reasoning then yours Bob. I lay the blame of disobedience on man and although you say here you do to your belief that God intended mans disobedience all along lays the blame squarely on God. Does not matter how you rephrase it Bob it comes down to the same conclusion, the buck stops with God in your view.

Jesus told Judas to GO DO what he was going to do.  So Jesus intended for Judas to go do it.  Does that mean Jesus approved of what Judas was about to do?  Of course not.  Does that mean Jesus was the mob boss and Judas' was the hitman?  Does that mean the buck stops with Jesus and not Judas?

Again that is more along my lines of reasoning then your own Bob.
But Jesus did not intend Judas to do it, Jesus Knew Judas was going to do it the same way God knew Adam would disobey, but having this foreknowledge of what would take place and intending or planning it to take place are very different.

The book of Job is hard to accept, but the basic premise is not hard to understand.  God took a righteous and obedient man and tried his faith with evil. Those are God's ways Scott. If it were only the book of Job I'd maybe wonder about it.  But it's a story repeated throughout scripture.

No it's not hard to accept Bob it's hard to understand, read the advice Jobs friend gave him and tell me that advice was wrong, especially when the new testament backs up the advise Jobs friends gave him.

Example:

Job 5:17
17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Hebrews 12:5
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

What did Jobs friends say any different than the writer of Hebrews?

NOTHING

So than was Jobs trials the chastening of the Lord?

Or did Jobs trial come from satan?

If Jobs trial were the chastening of the Lord than Jobs friends spoke what was true, yet later the scriptures state Jobs friends spoke NOT that which was true; therefore, what happened to Job CANNOT be the chastening of the Lord as you believe it is Bob.

And yes the scriptures repeat this story over and over and people like Jobs friends still are attributing to God that which came from satan by saying all these evils are the chastening of the Lord.

Bob this scripture really some up what we are discussing.

Septuagint

Isaiah 54

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

God says He created us NOT for ruin, yet you believe that He did create us for ruin and that He even planned it out that way.

God bless

[pneuma]

:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.

[claypot]

:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.

I think it can be said of Christ that He both died for us before the foundation of the world and while we were yet sinners. Both are true. God is the God of Israel and the God of all at the same time. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

cp

[claypot]

I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.

God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.

cp

[claypot]

Pneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?

God is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.

cp

[Zeek]

I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.

God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.

cp

Eze 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Pro 18:21  Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

The order here is interesting:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1.  knew God

2.  became vain in their imaginations (chose death)

3.  heart darkened/hardened.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

[Zeek]

Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


choose LIFE

[Zeek]

Adam was not deceived; and he chose death.  Chose disobedience.


Eve, on the other hand was deceived.  Did she have "life and death" set before her?  Or was she blinded though deception?? 

Was life and death set before her, with clarity of mind for  choice of "life and death"? 


Are we Eve's??  or Adam's??

[claypot]

Are we Eve's??  or Adam's??

Most certainly.......Yes!!!

[Zeek]

Are we Eve's??  or Adam's??

Most certainly.......Yes!!!

Casting down imaginations, and every thought/weapon that forms against me; for we HAVE the MIND of CHRIST. 

By faith, we decree the TRUTH and are what we decree.  I and the Father are one.  So be it. 

[claypot]

Are we Eve's??  or Adam's??

Most certainly.......Yes!!!

Casting down imaginations, and every thought/weapon that forms against me; for we HAVE the MIND of CHRIST. 

By faith, we decree the TRUTH and are what we decree.  I and the Father are one.  So be it. 

The mind of Christ is unimaginable to me. I suppose it is something one can have without understanding it. To me the mind of Christ is utter contentment.

cp

[pneuma]

I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.

God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.

Hi Clay, yes we start out as mortal but mortal does not = sinfull.

There is nothing wrong with our mortal bodies except they can be corrupted. That does not mean our mortal bodies are marred vessels but that our mortal bodies can become marred.

Jesus said that God planted GOOD seed in the ground and the Devil came along and sowed tares among the wheat. Those tare play on our mortality and changed our lust from that which was good and was to be used in accordance to the lust of the spirit to lust which was bad in accordance to the flesh.

The tares were sown of the Devil brother not sown of God.

Tare look just like wheat but have no LIFE in them; thus, can we not understand that it is the tares that are the sons of disobedience which Adam became after eating of the tree he was not suppose to eat of. Is this not why Jesus said of some that their father was the devil?

Pneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?

Read the story of Pharaoh bro and you will see it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

So do the scriptures contradict each other?

I don't believe so, God knowing Pharaoh would harden his heart gave Pharaoh over to his own heart's desire. Just as He has done throughout history. People desired one thing and God desired the people to do another. So when people refused Gods will for them God gives them over to their own desires which ultimately leads to death.

God is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.

Yes He is making us in His image and likeness, and that image and likeness ONLY COMES BY WAY OF OBEDIENCE. It does NOT come by way of disobedience unto obedience.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.

:cloud9: Thanks for the tip, pneuma...... :thumbsup: I've been overwhelmed here of late and therefore short on time, but hopefully things will level out again soon........Blessings....

[jabcat]

:cloud9: I'm still going to dig into pneuma's post on the foundation when I get time, but for now at least, this is the way I see it too Sheila. All things are subject to change, in my experience; mostly ME.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Hi sis, while you are digging into the foundation remember that the scriptures tell us that it was while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.

:cloud9: Thanks for the tip, pneuma...... :thumbsup: I've been overwhelmed here of late and therefore short on time, but hopefully things will level out again soon........Blessings....

As I understand, in essence, because it was predetermined to be, Jesus had [the same as] died for us before the foundation of the world, just as scripture says (Is, was, will be).  Same as done.  However, His literal, physical death occurred while we were sinners.  Just as, from Adam and Eve, Jesus was the Savior.  But only when he physically died on the cross and rose again, did the "believe in your heart God raised Him, confess with your mouth age of grace" come in. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That has always been my understanding too, Jab.....Everything that was created (a little lower than) was created thru Him, His Spirit poured out like a drink offering. So in that sense, He "died" to create the natural visible realm. The death on the cross was the visible representation of what had already happened in the beginning. My  :2c: Blessings...

[jabcat]

Wow, a step further than I had seen Card..very good. :thumbsup:

[claypot]

I don't think God created us for ruin but it does seem clear to me that we start out mortal and end up immortal. We start out carnal minded and end up spiritual minded. We start out Adam the first and end up Adam the Second.

God made a marred vessel first and then the unmarred.

Hi Clay, yes we start out as mortal but mortal does not = sinfull.

There is nothing wrong with our mortal bodies except they can be corrupted. That does not mean our mortal bodies are marred vessels but that our mortal bodies can become marred.

Jesus said that God planted GOOD seed in the ground and the Devil came along and sowed tares among the wheat. Those tare play on our mortality and changed our lust from that which was good and was to be used in accordance to the lust of the spirit to lust which was bad in accordance to the flesh.

The tares were sown of the Devil brother not sown of God.

Tare look just like wheat but have no LIFE in them; thus, can we not understand that it is the tares that are the sons of disobedience which Adam became after eating of the tree he was not suppose to eat of. Is this not why Jesus said of some that their father was the devil?

Pneuma, you say Pharoah hardened his own heart and then God hardened it but that doesn't make sense Brother. Doesn't Scripture say God hardened Pharoahs heart?

Read the story of Pharaoh bro and you will see it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

So do the scriptures contradict each other?

I don't believe so, God knowing Pharaoh would harden his heart gave Pharaoh over to his own heart's desire. Just as He has done throughout history. People desired one thing and God desired the people to do another. So when people refused Gods will for them God gives them over to their own desires which ultimately leads to death.

God is making a person and the person is not a finished product at the beginning, thus incomplete, hardened in some ways, blind and so on. God is doing this.

Yes He is making us in His image and likeness, and that image and likeness ONLY COMES BY WAY OF OBEDIENCE. It does NOT come by way of disobedience unto obedience.

Doesn't it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?

Doesn't it say in Jeremiah that God made a marred pot first?

I agree with you and Jesus that God planted good seed in the ground for Christ (good seed) lights every man (ground) that comes into being. The enemy is also allowed by God to enter the garden (mind of people) and yes, it is the carnal mind that leads people away from God, not technically God Himself, but God knows who runs the show.

I did not make myself, noway, nohow. I am a screwup for sure but I did not make myself nor did I choose to be a screwup of my own free will. If I had a free will and knew what I know now, which is not much, I would choose to be a flawless person.

I started out corruptable and will end up incorruptable. I start out with a carnal mind and will end up with the mind of Christ. I do not reap what I sow, contrary to Scripture, I reap far more good than the evil I sowed, praise be to God.

Obedience is a given Brother. I was made with strong inclination to be disobedient and the enemy was allowed to come into my mind to encourage disobedience even further and I disobeyed. God has sent the Perfect One to come into my mind (garden) jn3.16 to create an atmosphere that guarentees obedience to spring forth from my essence. Obedience is essential, I agree.

cp

[Zeek]

Who is this??


Eze 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Eze 28:12  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:2  Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:9  Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.


Sounds like talking about a man, who is this man represent??

[Zeek]

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Being turned over to "strong delusion" is "after" not receiving the truth, which is disobedience. 


Similar to Romans 1 verses earlier posted,

still seems to me; man has a choice first; then if refused the TRUTH; then heart hardened. 

or at least to those "not deceived" initially (ie: Adam).

[pneuma]

As I understand, in essence, because it was predetermined to be, Jesus had [the same as] died for us before the foundation of the world, just as scripture says (Is, was, will be).  Same as done.  However, His literal, physical death occurred while we were sinners.  Just as, from Adam and Eve, Jesus was the Savior.  But only when he physically died on the cross and rose again, did the "believe in your heart God raised Him, confess with your mouth age of grace" come in.

Hi Jab, the is, was, will be does concern Christ, but it does not concern everything that happened to Him. For if is, was ,will be concerns His death on the cross than Christ WAS slain, IS slain, and WILL BE slain, which means Christ has to be slain AGAIN in the future.

There is a New World correct?

When did this New World start?

Who is the foundation of this New World?

Who was the foundation of the Old World that is to be destroyed?

What does scripture mean when it say Christ was slain in these LAST TIME for us?

Jab think on some of these things brother, I know new concepts are sometimes hard to except, when I first started to see this I also questioned it, but the more I dwelt on it the more I came to realise the Christ is the FOUNDATION of ALL THINGS NEW and that FOUNDATION started upon His resurrection from death.

Has He been resurrected? Surely, thus the foundation of the New World has been established.

[pneuma]

Doesn't it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?

Clay you did not read the scriptures concerning Pharaoh.

If you do you will see that the scriptures state Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

That's why I asked do the scriptures than contradict each other?

I don't believe so.

So in what manner did God harden Pharaohs heart?

For me the answer lies in the commandments themselves. When God commands us to do something and we refuse and disobey His commandment we harden our heart towards God. So what does God do? He repeats His commandment, which further hardens our heart because we do not want this man to rule over us.

So in what manner did God harden Pharaohs heart?

By giving the commandment to obey His voice.

God does nothing contrary to His nature which is LOVE and can only deal with man out of LOVE. To harden man heart in the manner you are looking at it bro is contrary to His nature.

Tell me bro how did God blind the eyes of people? Did He do it by shadow and lies? Or did He blind them by TRUTH?
It is LIGHT that blinds the eyes brother not darkness.

In the same manner God hardened Pharaohs heart with the commandment to obey his voice. The commandment is ordained unto life, but when rejected death follows just as God warned.

Doesn't it say in Jeremiah that God made a marred pot first?

Already covered this in my opening post bro, please reread it.

I agree with you and Jesus that God planted good seed in the ground for Christ (good seed) lights every man (ground) that comes into being. The enemy is also allowed by God to enter the garden (mind of people) and yes, it is the carnal mind that leads people away from God, not technically God Himself, but God knows who runs the show.

I did not make myself, noway, nohow. I am a screwup for sure but I did not make myself nor did I choose to be a screwup of my own free will. If I had a free will and knew what I know now, which is not much, I would choose to be a flawless person.

I agree we are not responsible for the state we were born in, Adam by carnal knowledge with satan is. God made man good, satan corrupted man NOT GOD.

Example:
Hell was prepared for satan and his angels.

Hell is the place of the dead.

This world is hell.

How did we enter into this hell?

By carnal knowledge with satan through disobedience.

What did God warn Adam would happen if Adam ate from the tree?

Death.

Where do we find death?

In this world.

Who to blame for man entering into death?

Adam through carnal knowledge with satan.

Jesus said He was NOT of this world, why?

Because death has nothing in Him and could not hold Him.

Don't blame God for all the crap in this world, as this world is NOT His world.

I started out corruptable and will end up incorruptable. I start out with a carnal mind and will end up with the mind of Christ. I do not reap what I sow, contrary to Scripture, I reap far more good than the evil I sowed, praise be to God.

I disagree bro we ALL reap what we sow, your life does NOT contradict scripture.

Reaping what we sow works both ways brother, if we sow life we also reap life.

The problem with man is that he sows both good and evil, but that which is sown in love/good covers a multitude of sin.

Obedience is a given Brother. I was made with strong inclination to be disobedient and the enemy was allowed to come into my mind to encourage disobedience even further and I disobeyed. God has sent the Perfect One to come into my mind (garden) jn3.16 to create an atmosphere that guarentees obedience to spring forth from my essence. Obedience is essential, I agree.

No bro you were NOT made with a strong inclination to be disobedient. Man from the time he is born has a strong inclination to be obedient to their parents. But satan comes along and plants tares in man which incline man to be disobedient to the ones in authority over them. We learn disobedience Clay but we are born obedient.

[claypot]

Are the powers that cause disobedience stronger (more persuasive) than the powers that cause obedience? Is this why Adam sinned?

God made man perfect according to His design. I think this perfect design in the beginning is not the perfect design we see at the end.

I do not blame God for any crap but I do give Him credit for all things.

Pneuma, you believe we reap what we sow and I do too on one level. Do you think the grace we reap is equal to what we sow?

'Hell' for me is not understanding myself relationally to God and your words, Pneuma (and others here), really help me climb a bit more out of that 'hell' towards the light of Heaven. I thank you for your patient words to me Brother.

cp

[jabcat]

I recommend for anyone who wants to understand God's plan for us to read this excerpt from the NOBLE BEREAN by Thomas Kissinger.  It is Biblically based and doesn't jump through a bunch of hoops trying to explain/explain away scripture that "doesn't make sense to us"... IMO, it's an excellent summary and explanation of UR and God's purposes, and will help keep you from being "blown about by every wind of doctrine".  http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/

"Ephesians 3:11 (Young's Literal Translation) states..."according to a
purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord..."
In order to understand God, our existence, and the destiny of the human
race, it is imperative that we delve into the purpose of God. We must
first be enlightened to the fact that God has a purpose, and then we
must see that His purpose is A PURPOSE OF THE AGES!
The key to answering these questions is to be found in an understanding of what
the Bible refers to as the fall of man, the Supreme Sacrifice of the Lord
Jesus Christ (His death, burial, and resurrection), and the order that is
spoken of in 1st Corinthians 15:22-23, which states..."For as in Adam
all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN
HIS OWN ORDER..."
God's purpose of the ages is actually very simple, but has been greatly
complicated by the ideas of religious men and women. After one
comes to an understanding of the fall, the Sacrifice, and the order,
God's purpose of the ages becomes so elementary that a wee child is
able to understand it. So...Let us dig into and uncover God's purpose
of the ages.
THE FALL
Romans 8:19 (The New Testament In Modern Speech) states..."For
the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its
own choice, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it)." WOW!
Oh well...So much for "free [edit]". As we can clearly see, GOD WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FALL OF MAN! I know that some of you
who are reading this right now are shouting...NO!...That is not correct!
Nevertheless, it is the truth. Genesis 1:26-27 (King James Version)
states..."Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..." So God
created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him;
male and female created He them. It is important for us to stop here
for a moment and meditate on what was just said. Did you happen to
notice that God created man in His own image, and that He created
him (man) male and female? Most casual readers of the Bible never
catch what was just said. Here is what must be taken into account: God
created man (the human race) in the spirit realm first before He placed
him (beginning with Adam) into the earth realm. Notice that Adam
was later formed of the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It was at this
time that Adam became a living soul. Remember...God breathed into
the nostrils of Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. In
essence, the Adam of Genesis 1:26 was lowered into the soulish realm
and became the Adam of Genesis 2:7. THIS IS THE FALL!!! The act
of Adam's disobedience in his partaking of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil (his carnal mind) was just a result of being lowered
(his subjection to failure and unreality) into the soulish realm by God.
Many will ask the question...How can you say these things about God?
The answer is simple. This is what the Bible actually teaches about the
fall of man. I am simply repeating what the Bible states. Others would
ask...Why would God do this to the human race?
Well...Let us go back to Romans 8:19-22. It tells us that God did this
in hope, knowing beforehand that all those who were subjected to this
vanity would be delivered from their bondage by the ministry and
manifestation of the sons of God. In essence, God had predetermined
to subject all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all through
the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 11:32). The cross of the
Lord Jesus Christ was not an afterthought of God, but it was the very
foundation and focal point of His entire purpose of the ages. Revelation
13:8 as well as 1st Peter 1:20 tell us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world! This tells us that everything was built
on the slain Lamb (Jesus Christ). God wanted the world to see Him as
their Savior. The only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior. So...God did just that, for we know that
all have sinned (missed the mark of God's nature) and come short of
the glory of God (Romans 3:23). This can also be seen by applying the
story of Job to the human race. Job was minding his own business when
God asked Satan...Have you considered My servant Job? The rest of the
story shows us that it was God Who subjected Job to everything that he
went through. It tells us in Job 42:11 that it was the Lord Who was the
One Who brought evil upon Job. AMAZING! Have you ever thought
about that? Why did the Lord do this to Job? Our answer is to be found
in Job 42:5 and 42:12. These verses tell us that Job had only heard of the
Lord, but was now (because of everything that he went through) able to
see (understand) the Lord. As well, verse 12 tells us that Job's latter end
was more blessed than his beginning. And so shall it be with the human
race. We shall all be able to see (understand) the Lord and our latter
end shall be more blessed than our beginning as a result of having been
subjected to the vanity that God has placed us in. What an AMAZING
GOD that we serve!
THE SACRIFICE
It is now necessary to build upon our understanding of the fall of man by
taking the next step, which step will bring us to a proper understanding
of the Supreme Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will dissect why
He had to die, which also tells us why He died, and we will also bring out
what it truly is that His death has saved us from. In order to point out
the true meaning of the cross of Christ, we must first expose the false
teaching of Evangelical Christianity, which states that Jesus died on the
cross to save us from eternal torture in hell. THIS IS NOT CORRECT!
(As well, the hell of Evangelical Christianity is not the hell of the Bible.
There is a difference, but that is another topic for another writing.)
So...Why did Jesus have to die? It is actually very simple. Think of it
like this...The first Adam was disobedient, he sinned, and he died. The
last Adam (Jesus Christ) was obedient, He never sinned, and He died.
However, not only did He die, but HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! So...
We can now see that Jesus had to die to reverse the curse of Adam upon
the human race. And so He did! Now...This leads us into our next two
points, which speak of why He died and what His death saves us from.
In simple terms, Jesus died to save us. The question is though, what has
He saved us from? Our answer is to be found in Romans 6:23, which
states..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord." Our next question should be...What is
sin and death? The word "sin" means to miss the mark of God's nature
and character and the word "death" speaks of the carnal mind, for the
apostle Paul said that to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). After
having stated these things, we are now able to see that JESUS DIED
TO SAVE US FROM A CONDITION, NOT A LOCATION! It is also
vital that we understand that salvation is a process, and that we are
being saved spirit, soul, and body (1st Thessalonians 5:23). This is also
referred to as justification, sanctification, and glorification. This same
thing can also be seen in type and shadow in the Old Testament in the
three feasts of Israel, which were: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.
In addition to all of this (and this is probably the most important point),
JESUS DIED TO MANIFEST THE LOVE OF GOD (1ST JOHN 4:9)!
Remember...Jesus told His disciples..."Greater love has no man than
this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." ....an excerpt
from the writings of A. P. Adams. "The final outcome of the atoning scheme is not a partial success,
but a perfect, absolute, and universal triumph!" -end quote- (The
Atonement, A. P. Adams)

THE ORDER
The last aspect that we will consider concerning God's purpose of the
ages is what we will refer to as "the order". Many of God's people are
not able to grasp this last point, but it is one of the keys that unlocks
the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. Without an understanding of
the order in which the human race is being brought to God through
the cross of Christ, we are doomed to believe that God has all but lost
the vast majority of the human race to eternal torments. As was stated
earlier, THIS IS NOT CORRECT! Remember...1st Corinthians 15:22-
23 says..."For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER." Many would ask...
How is this possible? Here is the answer: The Bible has three different
categories of Scripture. There are Scriptures that speak of the remnant
(first-fruits), the nations, and all people and all things (the world).
These Scriptures must not be taken out of context and must be rightly
divided! When we look closely at the Scriptures, we will see Scriptures
that speak of a few being saved, all nations being saved, and finally,
all people and all things being reconciled to God through the blood
of the cross of Christ (Colossians 1:20). Is this a contradiction? NO!
It is simply God's purpose of the ages. He has foreordained to save a
remnant (first-fruits company) in this age, the nations in the coming
age, and every other person and thing in the final age (the age of the
ages / the dispensation of the fullness of times). These truths can be
understood by studying the feasts of Israel, which speak of the barley
harvest (Passover / the remnant), the wheat harvest (Pentecost / the
nations), and the grape harvest (Tabernacles / the unbelievers). THE
FEASTS PROVIDE A KEY THAT UNLOCKS THE DOOR TO AN
UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S PURPOSE OF THE AGES!
If we fail to see the order of God's great harvest, then we will fail to
see the salvation of all men. It is actually so simple that it becomes
hidden to the proud, but God is merciful and ever ready to remove
the blindness that is caused by listening to our carnal minds and by
believing the lies of religion. Many think that God's purpose will come
to a close at the end of this age. OH HOW WE HAVE MISSED AND
NOT DISCERNED THE PURPOSE OF OUR GOD! The first-fruits (the
elect) is not the end of the harvest, BUT JUST THE BEGINNING. The
first-fruits company will be used by God in the ages to come to gather
in the remainder of the harvest. Please remember...This is only made
possible because of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus
Christ. The only reason there shall be a manifestation of the sons of
God is because there was a manifestation of the Son of God. OH HOW
GLORIOUS IT WILL BE. I do not have the vocabulary at this present
time to proclaim just how marvelous it will be. We do know that the
apostle Paul said that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in this first-fruits
company. He referred to it as the MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS
OF GOD! The church can say it isn't so. They can laugh in light of what
has been stated in this teaching, but it will not stop God from going after
the full amount of His purchased possession. He has paid for the human
race through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ, and mark these
words...HE SHALL BE SATISFIED! HE SHALL GET EVERYTHING
THAT HE HAS PAID FOR! HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALMIGHTY GOD!
HE CANNOT FAIL! HE WILL NOT FAIL! HE IS THE SAVIOR OF
THE WORLD!!!
Romans 11:36..."For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are ALL
THINGS: to Whom be glory forever. Amen."
ENJOY YOUR SEARCH!
PART 3 - DECEPTION
Deceive: to mislead by a false appearance or statement; delude.
According to Martin Zender:
"God purposely sends deceptions into the world—even in the form
of mistranslated Scripture—to separate truth lovers from the lovers of
injustice.
I'm glad you are here. I will quote you three Scriptures to support this
initially disturbing point.
Proverbs 25:2—"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory
of kings to investigate a matter."
1st Corinthians 11:19—"For it must be that there are sects (groups
that deviate from accepted religious tradition) also among you, that
those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent."
2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12—"And therefore God will be sending them
an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood, that all
may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."
-end quote- (Martin Zender Goes To Hell, Martin Zender)
GOD IS IN CHARGE OF DECEPTION
Could it be? Is it true? Is God in charge of deception? Is God the One
responsible for sending strong delusion (an operation of deception)?
YES! I know that this is troubling to many people who hear it for the
first time, but nevertheless, IT IS THE TRUTH! How could it be any
other way? Remember...God is sovereign. God is omnipotent (allpowerful),
omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipresent (all-present). Is
there anything that is not under His control? Is there anything that He
is not in charge of? Is there anything that He does not either cause or
allow?
DECEPTION IS PART OF GOD'S PLAN
Since deception is part of God's plan, then we must come to the conclusion
that it is a necessary part of God revealing Himself to mankind. So...It
is vital that we seek to understand deception, and that we also seek to
understand why it is necessary. Before we do that, here are a few more
Scriptures to support this point:
1st Kings 22:22-23—"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that
he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner,
and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and
stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD
said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be
a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, you shall
persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore,
behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your
prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."
Revelation 20:2-3—"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And
cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon
him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand
years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little
season."
Revelation 20:7-8—"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan
shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather
them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
Well...There you have it! There is no doubt that God is the One
responsible for concealing things, creating sects, sending deception
(strong delusion), putting lying spirits in the mouths of prophets, and
shutting up and loosing Satan for the purpose of deceiving the nations.
WHY?
Why would God do these things? In order to understand something of
this nature we must also be willing to accept that God created all things
(good and evil, light and darkness, and opposing forces). This can be
seen from such passages as Isaiah 45:7 and Colossians 1:16-20, as well
as many other passages. The Bible is full of this kind of talk, but most
never read the Bible, or they read it with their minds already made up
and just ignore these types of passages, explaining them away.

Think of it like this...How could we know what truth was if there was no
such thing as deception? How could we know what light was if there was
no such thing as darkness? In fact, God starts everything in deception
and darkness and then brings it to truth and light. Remember...Genesis
1:1-2—"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And
the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
With this in mind, we must grow up in our understanding of God. God
has the power to shut us up in deception, and God has the power to
illuminate our minds (give us ears to hear) to come out of deception
and darkness into His marvelous light. It should be no surprise to us
that the majority of the world (including the church) is in deception.
GOD HAS PLANNED IT THAT WAY! As a matter of fact, Jesus told us
that...there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
deceive the very elect.
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
After coming to a revelation such as this, we are now able to go from glory
to glory, growing in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord. We are
able to approach all types of people, being all things to all men, that we
might win some. We are no longer hindered by the traditions of men,
which state that God is fighting against evil trying to do the best He can,
but will lose the vast majority of the human race. On the contrary, God
is in charge of all things, including deception. Deception is but another
instructive tool in God's tool box, which is for the purpose of teaching
man the difference between error and truth, and how to recognize those
who are still in error, knowing that they have been placed there by God,
and that we who have been brought out of deception by God are to
(with love and compassion) lead the others out." - Thomas Kissinger

(the 'edit' under 'THE FALL' is currently a discouraged topic at TM)