First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.
In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.
My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect. Yet there are none that I can find, or access. I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure. The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.
My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level. I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked. And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions. My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain. It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.
Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.
It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter. Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate". I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.
"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"
Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.
But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil. I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...
But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done? Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.
Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers. And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:
But anyway...
God and Evil, what's the deal?
For every positive there is a negative that is a law, for every action there is a reaction.
My journey has come full circle. I will say that I also had significant issues with the translations. But, I have expressed even more distain for the doctrine of ET even from the english texts. From the english texts I don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. It made me feel angry, confused and it made me search.
Where I am now...well I realize that God is in control. If the english texts are written with error then God allowed that to happen. I trust God. I trust in his agape love, holiness and his goodness. I honestly don't know how God works it all out on judgment day...nor do I have to. If you trust him...the answer to that question becomes moot. How will that answer change my walk? If my walk is based on faith then it shouldn't matter. We have been given enough to live a life pleasing to the Lord. Isn't that really all that matters? Some of us choose to adhere to it. Some of us don't. All will have to give an account and we will all be judged. It's God's job to judge and not my own.
What I continue to have issue with is those who misrepresent scripture to support doctrine that hurts the faith. There are things we will not know until we die. And those issues should be discussed in those terms. Presenting something as solid, fact when it hasn't been fully revealed is short sighted at best.
Micah: Elaborate?
Shawn: My problem is that I have been acquainted with suffering, and have an empathetic nature that makes me susceptible to its pains - needless pain, pain that is unnecessary. Pains that never go away for many people, and for others drives them to barbarity rather than betterment.
It is not a matter of faith and trust, but rather a matter of principle; Is God a divine Violator? Even if he doesn't violate someone (rape, murder, etc) by his naked hand, if he wears a person like a glove to sin against another, it is still his hand, not the glove who did the wretched act.
As for the translations, it is more a matter of certainty and convenience. I want to know that my views are aligned with what is perfectly correct and True, perfectly I emphasize, but there is no translation that is perfect that will allow me to do this, and even then The Spirit does not speak to me as clearly as he did the Prophets, or in any way that I can seem to hear him perfectly all the time.
In essence, being imperfect, or looking like a fool when I find that I have been duped (like in the case of ET) is growing very tiresome.
Pharoh and Moses.
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 03:12:15 AM
Micah: Elaborate?
Shawn: My problem is that I have been acquainted with suffering, and have an empathetic nature that makes me susceptible to its pains - needless pain, pain that is unnecessary. Pains that never go away for many people, and for others drives them to barbarity rather than betterment.
It is not a matter of faith and trust, but rather a matter of principle; Is God a divine Violator? Even if he doesn't violate someone (rape, murder, etc) by his naked hand, if he wears a person like a glove to sin against another, it is still his hand, not the glove who did the wretched act.
As for the translations, it is more a matter of certainty and convenience. I want to know that my views are aligned with what is perfectly correct and True, perfectly I emphasize, but there is no translation that is perfect that will allow me to do this, and even then The Spirit does not speak to me as clearly as he did the Prophets, or in any way that I can seem to hear him perfectly all the time.
In essence, being imperfect, or looking like a fool when I find that I have been duped (like in the case of ET) is growing very tiresome.
I am also empathetic my nature hence the reason I work in a helping profession. I like to help those in pain and those who suffer. So, I do understand. As for whether God is a divine violator well we know that he isn't. If you know he is just and holy then you know he doesn't sin nor does he do anything that isn't holy. It really is about faith and trust. Do you trust his nature even though you don't understand his ways? Or must you understand and approve of his ways in order to worship him? Only you can answer that for yourself. But, I think we all go through a time where we question God's goodness.
Hmmmn...
You make a very strong point Shawn, and your example Micah makes sense as well.
Perhaps my problem is not so much about whether or not God is evil, so much as whether or not man's violation of man is God's doing, or Man's. In light of things, it could not be God who violates man by gross means, though he is capable of taking back what belongs to him - Life.
Something to ponder through, but I think I may have an old article I wrote in the pre-UR days that might help, and I might share it, though...the "Forbidden subject" is in it, I'll probably give it to Jabcat or Cardinal and get a heads up and then share it if they approve.
At any rate, perhaps also this is just a backlash from where my doctrines have shifted so quickly, and my disgruntlement with Christendom has continued without any break, or glimmer of an actual community of sound believers that I can fellowship with in the "real world".
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 03:41:17 AM
Hmmmn...
You make a very strong point Shawn, and your example Micah makes sense as well.
Perhaps my problem is not so much about whether or not God is evil, so much as whether or not man's violation of man is God's doing, or Man's. In light of things, it could not be God who violates man by gross means, though he is capable of taking back what belongs to him - Life.
Something to ponder through, but I think I may have an old article I wrote in the pre-UR days that might help, and I might share it, though...the "Forbidden subject" is in it, I'll probably give it to Jabcat or Cardinal and get a heads up and then share it if they approve.
At any rate, perhaps also this is just a backlash from where my doctrines have shifted so quickly, and my disgruntlement with Christendom has continued without any break, or glimmer of an actual community of sound believers that I can fellowship with in the "real world".
Again for me free will is irrelevant. All of these debates only confuse and distract. I have no idea if man has free will, no free will or some hybrid. What I do know is I am instructed to live for Christ. And I will live my life as if I have free will and use my energy and focus to love God and to love my neighbor. My walk is growing more and more simple. God is weeding out useless garbage that doesn't further my walk. I know what I am instructed to do and therefore I must obey God. If I love Jesus I will do what he says for me to do. We know how to please him and that is where our focus needs to be. I believe many of the other debates I have been involved in only bring division and confusion.
Ask yourself a question when approaching any debate. How will this further my walk or the walk of my brother/sister? If the answer is...it won't...then leave it be. :2c:
I've looked at the info and offered ideas.
This is obviously an intriguing topic, but it's been hashed out before in various versions, including with free will/sovereignty issues having to be moderated. So I've been aware of this thread, realizing it can be really hard to talk about these things without getting into banned terms and strife.
We can give it a shot, but it's gonna take extra special effort to do, and honestly, to keep it from getting locked. :sigh:
See what you can do with it :happy3:
I decided not to bring free-will into the topic at this time. My focus is looking for encouragement, and enlightenment as to God and Evil; and hopefully finding a means to prove God's goodness untainted.
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 03:24:02 AM
First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.
In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.
My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect. Yet there are none that I can find, or access. I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure. The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.
My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level. I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked. And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions. My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain. It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.
Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.
It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter. Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate". I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.
"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"
Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.
But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil. I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...
But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done? Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.
Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers. And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:
But anyway...
God and Evil, what's the deal?
The fallacy is as I explained in the other thread. When people wish to remain at a certain level of understanding all you have to do is invoke the "God did it for a good purpose, we just cannot understand it" clause. Fact is, we can understand God to the degree that we are fully capable of.
If we can understand that Rape is wrong, then we certainly do not have to accept that we simply do not understand why God would allow such a thing or that he planned such a thing or that he desired it for a good purpose. We CAN know why God has nothing to do with it.
If we must accept that God ordains and desires a child rape to happen, then we have no assurance that any one of us would have been ordained by God to be the rapist. Do we not hear that line of reasoning from some? That God made the vessel of dishonor? The problem is that those who use that logic will refuse to carry that logic out to the most extreme point and that is that at any moment they themselves could be the next hitler. They themselves have no assurance that they won't be the next serial killer, because if they have no true choice in anything they do, then they could be the next one that shakes their baby to death. Why God ordained it because it is for a good purpose, but it won't be them, because they love the Lord and he is good to them. Uh huh.
Oh yeah, they talk about perhaps that God ordained them to make some mistakes in life, yada yada. Just as the calvinist who believes that some humans are destined to burn in hell forever we only hear that the calvinists who truly understood that it could be them ended up in a mental ward. The arguments never really hold up, for the cavinist concept is that those destined for hell are a result of Gods righteousness and that is worthy of praise. Right, you will not see a calvinist praise God for revealing to them that they are one of the damned, haven't seen one, heard of one, and doubtfully we ever will.
The problem is that people use this illogic to reason, but they only take it so far, because when the logic comes full circle they have to fully include themselves in the doctrine and they never do.
I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding. It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what
MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it, it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE. A well meaning child who tears open the cocoon to free the butterfly has just killed it. We are caught in the cocoon of God growing and GOD cannot change it for it must happen so we will be God as well, just as JESUS is. He has sent his word so that we may discover that we will be perfected and it was never actually God at all.
When people start seeing the bible as that message to us, then all those literal distasteful things that "we must accept as God being good" really is not about that literal physical picture in the first place, it never has been. It is carnal men afraid to see past their own skin.
Thanks Lefein. There are creative ways to discuss it without engaging in a jello hurling contest, but it does take some effort. Also, I know it's hard to catch everything, but we do have this posted in the Announcement Section, under "What You May Not Do". It's easy to miss such things, so I'll bring this to the fore...
"For these one warning may be given and then if repeated, you will be banned without further explanation. The ban may be of time duration but rather expect it to be permanent.
1. Trolling.
2. Baiting.
3. Flaming.
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
5. Public criticism of moderation decisions.
6. Starting a new thread of a similar topic as one that is recently locked.
7. Outright "trashing" of the scriptures - "they are untrue", "X writer of scripture was an imposter, not inspired", etc.
8. Initiating or engaging in a debate on the "free will/sovereignty" or Trinity topics - especially directly continually using those terms. It has caused too much strife on the boards and is not allowed. (Discuss your point of view without pushing those "hot buttons".)"
It's fair everyone knows upfront, no surprises :bigGrin:
Point well noted Jabcat.
Paul: So in essence we are on a similar page.
Evil is the absence of Good (my understanding of the concept), Evil is the absence of understanding (your understanding of the concept)
Am I correct in my statement of your understanding?
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 06:25:54 AM
Point well noted Jabcat.
Paul: So in essence we are on a similar page.
Evil is the absence of Good (my understanding of the concept), Evil is the absence of understanding (your understanding of the concept)
Am I correct in my statement of your understanding?
That is the general phrase I use to explain what I think yes. It is like a shift of perception, if you were a butterfly in a cocoon, you sure would want someone to break you free, but you don't know that this freedom is death. However I take it to the degree that it is not God who planned our life in a cocoon for a good purpose, it is inherantly the only path possible to being the butterfly and perhaps Gods only possible act to prevent it (and I question that too) is to have never created us in the first place.
I believe that our being created is an inherant act of Gods nature, something that also cannot be changed by himself.
I think the argument that people use, that God allows evil to happen and he could have prevented it, therefore he is the author of evil, is flawed.
The scripture says there is no darkness in him at all, and when he does things such as flooding the earth and killing people he says this is a strange act he does, in order to save his creation.
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
First God wants life and created many things out of love. The fact that he knows ahead of time that some will rebel does not mean that he should not create. God is willing to create things out of love, even though he knew in time that many would rebel and cause great evil. But he also knew before hand that he himself would have to save his own creation, the lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.
Despite this evil, God restores order and puts all enemies under his feet.
He restores all men
He proves his love and majesty to his own creation
He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil.
Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."
The devil invented???
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
It can also be translated as Calamity.
As for Evi; evil is not an entity in and of itself anymore than darkness, or cold. There is Good, Light, and Heat - Evil, Darkness, and Cold are not entities of Truth (what is), but are the absence of these things.
"And it was Good" is how God created everything. It was not until it became devoid or distant from God that it began its decline into evil - when something is absent of God, it becomes empty of goodness and so becomes evil.
Atleast, according to my understanding.
For God to have invented evil, is for God to have invented child abuse, human trafficking, the porn industry, abortion, the gas chamber, rape, murder, and torture. Can we attribute a loving deity with the invention of a harem of six year olds (and this is no emotional exaggeration but a reality in many countries)? Or the murder of thousands of innocent unborn children all across the earth?
And last but not least...
If God is the inventor of evil, he is the inventor of lying - and so God would be the Father of Lies... :mshock:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2010, 06:02:56 AM
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 03:24:02 AM
First, I'd like to introduce the reason I posted this topic.
In light of some past arguments, and discussions I have a few issues that I need to find answers for, and a few frustrations that I'd like to vent.
My first frustration is, in the face of words like Olam, that I long for a proper, readable, English translation that is well...perfect. Yet there are none that I can find, or access. I believe that the Originals are certainly inspired, and at the very least 98% textually pure. The translations of these however are like stained garments, and I grow weary of sifting through the stains.
My second frustration is similar to my frustration with the translations, but on a more doctrinal level. I've seen doctrines that are hideous, and wicked. And then I have seen ideas that have made me think, and have so caused me to have to reconsider my positions. My frustration here is not so much with the fact that there are other ideas and doctrines other than mine, rather than the knowledge that all of these including mine are like our righteousness - filthy rags, foolishness, stupidity, vain. It is a little bit disturbing that God may be laughing at my efforts to fathom in my finite brain the sum of everything.
Currently my issue is the relationship between God who is good, and Evil.
It is well known that I don't believe we are puppets, or bits of code doing action C after action B after action A without any say so, or which way about the matter. Neither do I believe we are following another version of "Fate". I do however believe in God's sovereignty, that it is a harmonious sovereignty that is directly related to his omniscience, and omnipresence, and omnipotence.
"Every single moment in time is laid out before him, like a list of snapshots that he can alter at any point in which he pleases, he sees all of these paused snapshots from a birds eye view, what we see as a film strip playing"
Our movements are made by our own will, not by puppetry.
But this is not about the "forbidden subject" this is just a statement of my beliefs for backdrop into the issue of Evil. I suppose that people would think this an exaggerated, emotionally appealing sort of thing...
But for what good purpose would God have to ordain a man to rape a woman, or a little boy, or a little girl, and see that it be done? Such a God is not only the source of evil, but is Evil by nature, and a wicked sinner.
Basically, these are questions I need to have answers for, good answers. And preferably answers that are on topic, and readable...or atleast understandable... :sigh:
But anyway...
God and Evil, what's the deal?
The fallacy is as I explained in the other thread. When people wish to remain at a certain level of understanding all you have to do is invoke the "God did it for a good purpose, we just cannot understand it" clause. Fact is, we can understand God to the degree that we are fully capable of.
If we can understand that Rape is wrong, then we certainly do not have to accept that we simply do not understand why God would allow such a thing or that he planned such a thing or that he desired it for a good purpose. We CAN know why God has nothing to do with it.
If we must accept that God ordains and desires a child rape to happen, then we have no assurance that any one of us would have been ordained by God to be the rapist. Do we not hear that line of reasoning from some? That God made the vessel of dishonor? The problem is that those who use that logic will refuse to carry that logic out to the most extreme point and that is that at any moment they themselves could be the next hitler. They themselves have no assurance that they won't be the next serial killer, because if they have no true choice in anything they do, then they could be the next one that shakes their baby to death. Why God ordained it because it is for a good purpose, but it won't be them, because they love the Lord and he is good to them. Uh huh.
Oh yeah, they talk about perhaps that God ordained them to make some mistakes in life, yada yada. Just as the calvinist who believes that some humans are destined to burn in hell forever we only hear that the calvinists who truly understood that it could be them ended up in a mental ward. The arguments never really hold up, for the cavinist concept is that those destined for hell are a result of Gods righteousness and that is worthy of praise. Right, you will not see a calvinist praise God for revealing to them that they are one of the damned, haven't seen one, heard of one, and doubtfully we ever will.
The problem is that people use this illogic to reason, but they only take it so far, because when the logic comes full circle they have to fully include themselves in the doctrine and they never do.
I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding. It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it, it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE. A well meaning child who tears open the cocoon to free the butterfly has just killed it. We are caught in the cocoon of God growing and GOD cannot change it for it must happen so we will be God as well, just as JESUS is. He has sent his word so that we may discover that we will be perfected and it was never actually God at all.
When people start seeing the bible as that message to us, then all those literal distasteful things that "we must accept as God being good" really is not about that literal physical picture in the first place, it never has been. It is carnal men afraid to see past their own skin.
I really like this Paul.
evil H7451 "ra" = bad. Yes calamity is mentioned, either way The Lord God created it.
I we read in Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (bad), thou shalt not eat of it,—for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shelf die.
"I believe evil is a manifestation of the absence of understanding. It is real and it affects us, but it is not God, it is what MUST be as our understanding comes to the full knowledge of truth and tho many do not like to hear it, it is God expanding and God cannot change it, we are becoming God and are experiencing what a catapillar might experience while struggling to break free of the cocoon, it is WHAT MUST BE."(Paul)
There is a difference between creating a storm that covers the sun in clouds and omens, and creating the tumult that is wicked darkness in the soul.
:cloud9: God created the darkness of the first 6 days/6000 years, and said that it was good, even very good, because He uses it for a tool, a servant. Men have a choice, have a conscience they can sear as with a hot iron (creates a scar that has no feeling) as to whether or not they give in to the darkness, even before they KNOW the Lord.
As for what we see "out there", it's been created from the heart of the now spiritual priesthood, who He made to be one with the Head. They "out there" are the body, who can only do what they perceive their head (priesthood) do. This is why Jesus was so rough on the Pharisees, who had the "position" first, confronting them time and again over their HEARTS, and their refusal to take the burdens off the people, and/or even added to them.
This is also why Jesus said if you lust after a woman in your HEART, you've already committed adultery with her. Why? Because the head and the body are one, and the body does, what it "sees" the head do in it's heart. The soul is a womb, Eve was a womb-man, capable of reproducing whatever seed is planted in it. I could go on and on, but this is stating the "bare bones" of the precept. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:12:11 PM
It can also be translated as Calamity.
But that would be wrong imo.
Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil."
Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.
Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it
is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
I often receive emails from readers who assert that the word "evil" in this verse
should be translated "calamity." That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little
would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in
Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a "calamity" rather than an "evil?"
What would be gained by calling "evils" by the name "calamities"? That is
nonsense.
Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is the
Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for "calamity" is the Hebrew word ade which
means "misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means "bad or
evil." It is the same word used for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil
[ra]." It was not the tree of the knowledge of "good and calamity." Did Jacob
really mean to say, "a calamitous beast" had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)?
Did Israel really "do calamity in the sight of God" by worshipping Balaam, or did
they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means "bad or evil" and it is used over four hundred times to
represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil
against His creatures all day long
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html 40% down the page.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 04:58:17 PM
Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."
The devil invented???
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
"why callest thou me good, only He is good, even God"
"How can light dwell with darkness"
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Hmm two scriptures with opposing views so which scripture is true, lets reason together.
One says that God is the creator of evil but another says that when one sins they connect to the devil, because he invented it.
How is God the creator of evil?
Did he not create all beings good?
But some rebelled, he charged his angels with folly.
Job 4:18
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
So if God is the maker of all things and the creator of the evil beings is that true?
Did God create the devil? No, but he did create him though. Did God test Us to do Good or evil? But we choose to do evil. So did God test his angels to see whether they did good or evil? I think the test was maybe that God would create a new being, mankind after his own likeness, a being that has his very nature, a being that could in effect be as boss over the angels, because we are as gods. This might have annoyed/frightened some to rebel and so they failed the test of loyalty. Is God to blame for his own creation rebeling against him? Should he not as a perfect God give his creation the right do do as they please and let them be free, rather than slaves to him. For God did not want slaves, he wants friends. Jesus said to his disciples
I no longer call you servants but friends for a servant does not know what his master thinks.
We have access to the heart of God, I think this is the key difference between mankind and angelic beings, we have a intimate relationship with God, while angels are servants. God says to Gabriel, Go here and Go there and he goes without question, but we can ask "why God?" And God says "because the man needs your help, go my son". Our experience here on this plane, proves our loyalty to God that we are fit enough be be called Gods sons, for it is not wise to put an untested being of god like powers in authority.
I think that's the gist of it, but theres allways more to learn.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [5] 12 When ye come to appear [6] before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, [7] even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve [8] the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
God doesn't like evil, why would he create it? in him there is no darkness at all.
A good tree does not produce evil fruit and neither does an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
A very good post Thinktank.
I've been mulling over a recent portion of my post as of late, and I think that post somewhat brings it to a closer conclusion.
If God "invented" evil, then he invented lying, and so he is the Father of Lies. It is not possible for God to lie, let alone be the father of them. All forms of evil (unrighteous, wrongness, sin) are lies, because they go against Truth. Truth is always righteous, never is it sinful to be True.
:cloud9: You ever the read the account in the OT where someone offers to be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophet and God grants him permission to do so? Was the flood, evil or good? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? He created the smithy, as a tool. Without darkness, we would never know the difference between light and darkness. It serves a purpose, a purpose He intended. My :2c: Blessings....
Here is another article by Ray titled The Real Orgin of sin and evil.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Nothing in this world happens without a cause, reason, or purpose and God is all of these. There is always a lesson to be learned by someone with every thing that happens whether it be good or bad.
CHB
CHB
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 06:23:21 PM
:cloud9: You ever the read the account in the OT where someone offers to be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophet and God grants him permission to do so? Was the flood, evil or good? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? He created the smithy, as a tool. Without darkness, we would never know the difference between light and darkness. It serves a purpose, a purpose He intended. My :2c: Blessings....
Amen Card. Both out of the same lump. It's obviously more than our carnal minds can comprehend. I struggle with it as well, but only humbling ourselves before the Father, accepting His will, can we "see". Otherwise, we fight against Him, thinking we are doing good, i.e., calling good evil and evil good. :2c: Been there, done it - still do.
My issue has boiled down to a simple point.
If the Heavenly Father is the Father of Lies...then we have a bit of an issue that mere sweeping beneath the rug will not fix. We are to trust God, and it is impossible to trust a liar. If he is the Father of Lies, then he is..well..the ultimate liar.
This simply cannot be, it blows a large crack in the foundation of All things.
Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.
Psa 139:12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Dan 2:22 He, revealeth the deep things, and the hidden,—knoweth what is in the darkness, and, light, with him, doth dwell.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2010, 06:50:54 PM
Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.
If the Lord's ways are evil, then there is a terror in the universe the likes of which none are safe. In this life, or the next.
I am to worship a good deity, not a deity who is divided, a dualistic bi-polar being. How will I know he does not intend evil for me? And if he is the Father of Lies, there is no trust that can be given - not in scriptures that he wrote, nor in words that he speaks. In essence, the Devil is but a lesser reflection of the True God who would be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient evil.
This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable? Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?
If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.
Quote from: Lefein
This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable? Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?
If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.
Lefein,
Your words trouble me greatly.
CHB
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? :sigh:
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 06:43:34 PM
My issue has boiled down to a simple point.
If the Heavenly Father is the Father of Lies...then we have a bit of an issue that mere sweeping beneath the rug will not fix. We are to trust God, and it is impossible to trust a liar. If he is the Father of Lies, then he is..well..the ultimate liar.
This simply cannot be, it blows a large crack in the foundation of All things.
And we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies. Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error. It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding. Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers. Rely not on your own understanding. I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take. But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions. I know some believe they indeed have it figured out. But, I am not one of those people.
Maybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't. And just possibly that is true faith. Blessed is he who believes without seeing. I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand. His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it. I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do. God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.
Quote from: CHB on October 31, 2010, 07:08:46 PM
Quote from: Lefein
This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable? Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?
If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.
Lefein,
Your words trouble me greatly.
CHB
why should they trouble you? You should rejoice that God is good.
Why is it that people get affraid that someone says "hey the scriptures say God is good and there is no darkness in him"
A truth that describes the very essence of Gods being, that he is love.
Is it because the darkness within is exposed?
QuoteLefein,
Your words trouble me greatly.
CHB
Why should they disturb you? I am to know my Father, and if knowing him means finding out if he is indeed genuine, and trustworthy so as to ensure my faith is strong in the face of tougher questions...then so be it.
I shall be a good Berean who searches for Truth.
People here are saying that God invented;created evil, and is the source of it, that he is the progenitor of darkness, and the maker of wickedness, the designer of sin, and as such I have carried that conclusion to its application.
If he is indeed the creator of evil - then he is the father of lies. There can be no other conclusion, lest we pick and choose from scriptures.
I am seeking to understand so that I can move on, and seeking to secure wisdom that I may not perish due to a lack of knowledge.
There is no evil in my goals by seeking to exclude "God is Evil" from the list of his character aspects. To know my father, is to seek to know his ways, otherwise what sort of son am I if I have no interest in his character? How can I reflect his character, and be an expression of him, if I don't even know what his character is?
If he is evil and corrupt, then all is lost. It is my hope to find that he is not. It is my hope to delve deeper into who God is, so that I might express him, and be like him in truth, and genuine honesty of character - to be like God himself, not to be as Tradition says he is; Tradition can even be found amongst the circles of this assembly.
If he is the father of evil, then to express the character of God, is to express evil...and we have major problems with the universe.
If he is not, then I have nothing to worry about.
QuoteJam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
I have not blasphemed Yahweh in any way, by seeking to divide Truth from Tradition, even the traditions of men here. Tradition does not necessarily mean that it comes from the church, or churchianity.
QuoteAnd we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies. Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error. It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding. Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers. Rely not on your own understanding. I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take. But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions. I know some believe they indeed have it figured out. But, I am not one of those people.
I can conclude a better thing than God is Evil, or I have no hope of understanding. I can conclude perhaps, that since the Heavenly Father cannot be the Father of Lies, then the ultimate conclusion is that he is not the author of Sin; Evil.
QuoteMaybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't. And just possibly that is true faith. Blessed is he who believes without seeing. I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand. His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it. I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do. God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.
It is perhaps a matter of prayer for me then. It is not a matter of approving of what God does, or my approval. But it is a matter of existence itself. In what sort of universe do I live? One whose foundation is Sin itself, or one whose foundation is Righteousness and without Sin at all?
Some people here, even unknowingly imply that the foundation is Sin, by attributing God with the authorship of evil. This is what I have to combat, even if I am unorthodox in doing so.
Especially if anyone plans on trying to show God's character to the Atheist, or the unbeliever.
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 06:59:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2010, 06:50:54 PM
Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.
If the Lord's ways are evil, then there is a terror in the universe the likes of which none are safe. In this life, or the next.
I am to worship a good deity, not a deity who is divided, a dualistic bi-polar being. How will I know he does not intend evil for me? And if he is the Father of Lies, there is no trust that can be given - not in scriptures that he wrote, nor in words that he speaks. In essence, the Devil is but a lesser reflection of the True God who would be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient evil.
This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable? Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?
If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.
Mat 5:45 That ye may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens: because, his sun, he maketh arise on evil and good, and sendeth rain, on just and unjust.
Evil is a tool used by the Lord, believe me when I say that He will uses it for the good of His children; obedient and disobedint.
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 07:32:23 PM
QuoteLefein,
Your words trouble me greatly.
CHB
Why should they disturb you? I am to know my Father, and if knowing him means finding out if he is indeed genuine, and trustworthy so as to ensure my faith is strong in the face of tougher questions...then so be it.
I shall be a good Berean who searches for Truth.
People here are saying that God invented;created evil, and is the source of it, that he is the progenitor of darkness, and the maker of wickedness, the designer of sin, and as such I have carried that conclusion to its application.
If he is indeed the creator of evil - then he is the father of lies. There can be no other conclusion, lest we pick and choose from scriptures.
I am seeking to understand so that I can move on, and seeking to secure wisdom that I may not perish due to a lack of knowledge.
There is no evil in my goals by seeking to exclude "God is Evil" from the list of his character aspects. To know my father, is to seek to know his ways, otherwise what sort of son am I if I have no interest in his character? How can I reflect his character, and be an expression of him, if I don't even know what his character is?
If he is evil and corrupt, then all is lost. It is my hope to find that he is not. It is my hope to delve deeper into who God is, so that I might express him, and be like him in truth, and genuine honesty of character - to be like God himself, not to be as Tradition says he is; Tradition can even be found amongst the circles of this assembly.
If he is the father of evil, then to express the character of God, is to express evil...and we have major problems with the universe.
If he is not, then I have nothing to worry about.
QuoteJam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
I have not blasphemed Yahweh in any way, by seeking to divide Truth from Tradition, even the traditions of men here. Tradition does not necessarily mean that it comes from the church, or churchianity.
QuoteAnd we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies. Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error. It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding. Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers. Rely not on your own understanding. I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take. But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions. I know some believe they indeed have it figured out. But, I am not one of those people.
I can conclude a better thing than God is Evil, or I have no hope of understanding. I can conclude perhaps, that since the Heavenly Father cannot be the Father of Lies, then the ultimate conclusion is that he is not the author of Sin; Evil.
QuoteMaybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't. And just possibly that is true faith. Blessed is he who believes without seeing. I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand. His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it. I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do. God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.
It is perhaps a matter of prayer for me then. It is not a matter of approving of what God does, or my approval. But it is a matter of existence itself. In what sort of universe do I live? One whose foundation is Sin itself, or one whose foundation is Righteousness and without Sin at all?
Some people here, even unknowingly imply that the foundation is Sin, by attributing God with the authorship of evil. This is what I have to combat, even if I am unorthodox in doing so.
Especially if anyone plans on trying to show God's character to the Atheist, or the unbeliever.
Lefein,
I do understand the questions you have. God knows all about good and evil and if we are to be like him shouldn't we know both good and evil too? Shouldn't we have to experience, see, and come to know the consequences of what evil can bring? How would we know what evil was if we never experienced it?
I guess it is just the way you were presenting your questions that make me cringe when I read your post. I guess when you say "if God created siin, and evil, that that makes him evil, a liar, sinful". That is my problem. In a way you have judged God already to be the things you are asking about, because he did create evil and all that is. Where did any of it come from if not from him? Is there a spirit or anything else out there that is doing all these things other than God?
I pray that you will find your answers.
CHB
:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 08:33:09 PM
:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?
Amen.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 08:33:09 PM
:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?
That's simple, it is the will of God. God gives his creatures choices, the devil sinned from the begining. Did God test the devil as he tested Adam and Eve?
Darkness is the absence of light, it has no properties. Sin is absence of Gods perfect will, hence the term missing the mark.
If God created evil, then that must be because he is evil. All theft, murderings, lying, cursing, originate from him since he created everything. But how can the, truth, the way and the life produce lies?
It is hard to grasp this thing, but every true child of God knows that what I just speak is the truth, but cannot explain why as to why does sin exist, it is easier to say that God created evil much simpler to the carnal mind, even though we know this is not scripturally true.
QuoteI do understand the questions you have. God knows all about good and evil and if we are to be like him shouldn't we know both good and evil too? Shouldn't we have to experience, see, and come to know the consequences of what evil can bring? How would we know what evil was if we never experienced it?
I can understand a nuclear missile without creating it myself. I can understand murder without strangling a man.
QuoteI guess it is just the way you were presenting your questions that make me cringe when I read your post. I guess when you say "if God created siin, and evil, that that makes him evil, a liar, sinful". That is my problem. In a way you have judged God already to be the things you are asking about, because he did create evil and all that is. Where did any of it come from if not from him? Is there a spirit or anything else out there that is doing all these things other than God?
If he is the author of sin, or source of sin, then he is a sinner. It is plain and simple, now is he the author and source of sin, or not? If he isn't the root of sin, then he is not a sinner, if he is the root of sin, then the universe is doomed. What say you?
The sting of Death is sin, sin is caused by death, evil is sin, death is the absence of Life, and therefore sin, and evil are the absence of Life; God is Life, so evil is caused by the absence of God. Evil is not an entity that can be created, it is an absence formed by the removal of a countering agent. Darkness is the absence of light, not the antithesis of it.
So here we get to a situation...Is God the Author of Sin? Is he the root of it? If he made it, then it is all his fault, not ours, and we deserve no punishment at all - yet that is certainly no comfort, because then we are left with the unchanging God who is the Father of Lies. Does God lie? Never.
How can God be the author of evil, if he cannot bring forth lies? It is impossible.
QuoteIn the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?
Is God the author, creator, progenitor of lies, and lying? If so - he is the Father of Lies. If not - then why do you say it came from him?
lefein, keep up the questioning, it is good to question and explore and discover, don't let anyone ever stop you.
:cloud9: Creating it and BEING it, are not the same thing.....He created a mountain, but He is NOT that mountain. He created the darkness, but He is not that darkness, yet it says He dwells in the thick darkness. Look it up.....do a word study on darkness, pavillion, and tabernacle in the Hebrew. Blessings....
Is he the author, creator, progenitor, maker, producer, designer of lies? ...or not?
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 09:11:51 PM
:cloud9: Creating it and BEING it, are not the same thing.....He created a mountain, but He is NOT that mountain. He created the darkness, but He is not that darkness, yet it says He dwells in the thick darkness. Look it up.....do a word study on darkness, pavillion, and tabernacle in the Hebrew. Blessings....
:bigGrin: But creating something proceeds from the imagination, is Gods imagination evil?
When an evil inventor has murerous thoughts, he invented the sword to kill
Another good inventor created a sword but to protect his familly.
What if someone stole the good creators sword to do that which is evil.
So when God creates a lie, how can he imagine such a thing if he himself is Truth, ponder on that :cloud9:
When I am good I imagine good things, but when I am evil I imagine evil things.
Alas how can an unstable mind of God, be still.
There is a difference between creating evil, when as a limitless being he didn't have to and evil being a byproduct of a path that must happen as the nature of things and is something that God cannot change. God can take responsibility for evil existing based on knowing that the path to perfection was set in motion by him or simply as a result of Gods existance.
:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.
Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.
God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 09:35:40 PM
:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.
Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.
God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My :2c: Blessings.....
But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 08:33:09 PM
:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?
:thumbsup:
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made
the worlds
Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 09:35:40 PM
:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.
Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.
God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My :2c: Blessings.....
But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.
:cloud9: It's "neutral" UNTIL it's in "use". He created the waster to destroy, did He not? The difference once again, is in HOW it's being used. Ever wonder why He used serpents to slay the rebellious that wanted flesh and not manna, and then made them look up to a serpent to heal them?
And the devil didn't put the tree in there. There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden. There was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the Tabernacle. The tree of life = candlestick, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = the table of shewbread. The table of shewbread is representative of experience gleaned from walking out the law of God (for one thing), which is still in effect (spiritually) until the Spirit has fulfilled it in us.
We knew not what sin was, until the commandment came. The serpent was in the tree already; the law ministered condemnation which ministered death to the hearer. That's why when they took the mercy seat (right motive of Spirit personified in Christ) off the Ark, they were slaughtered. The death (serpent) was in the law/tree. My :2c: Blessings....
I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).
I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes. The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it. The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.
(according to my understanding)
___ ___ ___
But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"
I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 10:08:50 PM
Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 09:35:40 PM
:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.
Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.
God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My :2c: Blessings.....
But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.
:cloud9: It's "neutral" UNTIL it's in "use". He created the waster to destroy, did He not? The difference once again, is in HOW it's being used. Ever wonder why He used serpents to slay the rebellious that wanted flesh and not manna, and then made them look up to a serpent to heal them?
I've always wondered about that, why use a snake to gaze upon and live, he also used the rod of moses to turn into a snake. I belive the symbology of this is that prophecy in Genesis, where the woman would bruise the head of the serpent. This rasing of the stake by Moses was a symbol of how God was in the future going to use the devil to defeat the devil. For the devil lead Jesus to be cruxified for when Jesus was delivered he said now is the time of darkness, their time, the prince of the world has nothing in me and this was his own undoing, so that crux now becomes a weapon of warfare agains the serpents.
And the devil didn't put the tree in there. There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden. There was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the Tabernacle. The tree of life = candlestick, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = the table of shewbread. The table of shewbread is representative of experience gleaned from walking out the law of God (for one thing), which is still in effect (spiritually) until the Spirit has fulfilled it in us.
That's good to know, but remember what Jesus said "the devil has nothing in me"
So how can God create this very being, the waster? I think that when it says created the waster he means that he let this serpent live. For when God does evil, such as the flood, he does it with compassion, to restore, to heal, to bring good out of evil, but the devil is evil, the father of lies.
I think I know where your coming from now, that God does evil to punish us but yet ultimately is good.
But I maintain that God is not the author of evil, but simply has knowledge of it for he knows all things, and knows what hapens when one goes against his ways and perverts it.
A question for some here How is it possible for example to create anything without it becoming evil?
I.e what can be created without potential of abuse? so hopefuly one can understand as to how the devil came about.
:cloud9: He created it, I would imagine, by creating what was NOT like Him. Saying He can't do that, limits Him, IMO. He can do anything. My :2c: Blessings.....
Darkness is not neutral, darkness is light turned down to its lowest illumination. Gen. 1:4 " and God divided the light, from the, darkness;"
DARKNESS H2822 chôshek the dark; hence (literally) darkness. From H2821 châshak
to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken. H2825 chăshêkâh chăshêykâh darkness;
G4655 skotos shadiness, that is, obscurity From G4639 skia Apparently a primary word; "shade" or a shadow
Job 20:26 All darkness is hid for his treasures, Consume him doth a fire not blown, Broken is the remnant in his tent.
Psa 18:11 He maketh darkness His secret place, Round about Him His tabernacle, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 139:12 Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth, as is darkness so is light.
Isa 45:3 And have given to thee treasures of darkness, Even treasures of secret places, So that thou knowest that I, Jehovah, Who am calling on thy name-- am the God of Israel.
Dan 2:22 He is revealing deep and hidden things; He hath known what is in darkness, and light with Him hath dwelt.
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 10:23:15 PM
I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).
I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes. The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it. The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.
(according to my understanding)
___ ___ ___
But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"
I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.
No.
sa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
There was another member who got me thinking along these lines. After contemplating this verse I found a curious thing. We see Creator used only for Darkness and Evil, but not for Light and Good.
Believing as I do about Gods Character it is more likely that he cuts down darkness and evil. This would suggest that God did not create darkness and Evil as an act of his choosing, but cuts down that which is an inherant part of the only process of creation to perfection. God is responsible based upon our creation, but it was not an act of his Will, cutting it down however is an act of the assurance that we will be one with him.
H1254 bara' baw-raw'
a primitive root;
(absolutely) to create; (qualified)
to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as
formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do,
make (fat).
I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?
What is there in a room before you flip the switch?
"Let there be light, and there was light"
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 01:05:14 AM
I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 12:59:02 AM
Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 10:23:15 PM
I've always maintained that it was not the tree itself that caused the knowledge (honestly, I think it was just a normal tree, if not a special species of normal tree that doesn't exist on earth anymore, providing the literal account is literal).
I believe that the tree was just a tree, but it was disobedience that opened their eyes. The fruit, or tree had nothing supernatural to it, or property to it. The actions toward it was where the power was derived from.
(according to my understanding)
___ ___ ___
But I still desire a yes, or no answer; "Is God the author of lies?"
I don't believe he is...but I want answers from others, especially those who contend that he is the inventor of evil.
No.
sa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
There was another member who got me thinking along these lines. After contemplating this verse I found a curious thing. We see Creator used only for Darkness and Evil, but not for Light and Good.
Believing as I do about Gods Character it is more likely that he cuts down darkness and evil. This would suggest that God did not create darkness and Evil as an act of his choosing, but cuts down that which is an inherant part of the only process of creation to perfection. God is responsible based upon our creation, but it was not an act of his Will, cutting it down however is an act of the assurance that we will be one with him.
H1254 bara' baw-raw'
a primitive root;
(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as
formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do,
make (fat).
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: That's very true about the Hebrew word there :thumbsup: As I shared in another post in the Tabernacles thread recently, fat is congealed, it cannot be turned into light until fire is added to it. All things were created thru, by and for Christ, He was as a tree cut down, cut off. Blessings.....
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 01:10:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 01:05:14 AM
I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
rebellion
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 01:10:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 01:05:14 AM
I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Okay what do I do with this Col 1:16 because in him were the
all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities;
all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before
all, and the
all things in him have consisted.
And since when is there a "God cannot" came from?
Sometimes God deals with us directly, sometimes indirectly. Take Job for instance, God didn't personally take away Job's possessions or cause his illness but he gave Satan the power to do it.
God provides circumstances and gives us choices sometimes which causes us to choose good or evil. Take Paul for instance, he said, what "I want to do I find I cannot", and what he didn't want to do is what he did. Because God gave him a heart that was deceitfully and wicked. We were made in these weak bodies which cannot resist temptation every time, which causes us to sin. So, God doesn't cause us directly to sin but indirectly he does. Did God create sin, I would say yes he did, he created Satan didn't he? He created Adam didn't he? Isn't the flesh sinful?
God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH (Rom.8:3). Without him was not anything made that was made {John 1:3).
CHB
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 01:35:27 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 01:10:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 01:05:14 AM
I understand the create(d) of "bara" but where did the "darkness" come from if not from God?
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Okay what do I do with this Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
And since when is there a "God cannot" came from?
I never said evil and darkness were not something attributed to God creating us, they were not an act of his choosing. God is responsible and knowledgable of evil because we are a creation of his. That evil and darkness still is not more powerful than God no matter the circumstances of its existance.
Evil and Darkness are something that is within existance and all of existance is within God.
Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Ti 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
There are some who think it is ok to say that God can lie, he just chooses not too, but you find no such description in scripture about it.
The limitations of God where we are concerned are irrevelant when it comes to our strength and power, but there afre things God cannot do and they are actually good things when the light of truth comes upon them.
1C 1:25 thatfor the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.
Quote from: PaulHazlewood
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 01:46:25 AM
Quote from: PaulHazlewood
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.
CHB
No it doesn't. God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 01:40:56 AM
Sometimes God deals with us directly, sometimes indirectly. Take Job for instance, God didn't personally take away Job's possessions or cause his illness but he gave Satan the power to do it.
God provides circumstances and gives us choices sometimes which causes us to choose good or evil. Take Paul for instance, he said, what "I want to do I find I cannot", and what he didn't want to do is what he did. Because God gave him a heart that was deceitfully and wicked. We were made in these weak bodies which cannot resist temptation every time, which causes us to sin. So, God doesn't cause us directly to sin but indirectly he does. Did God create sin, I would say yes he did, he created Satan didn't he? He created Adam didn't he? Isn't the flesh sinful?
God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH (Rom.8:3). Without him was not anything made that was made {John 1:3).
CHB
Amen! Well said!
e
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 01:48:46 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 01:46:25 AM
Quote from: PaulHazlewood
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.
CHB
No it doesn't. God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?
Yes I agree with that. God does not lie, He cannot lie, but has He allowed lies to be? Yes. The Lord God will cause a circumstance to come about where we will have to use our mind, and if carnal thinking..then we will do that evil (bad) thing, but if the mind of Christ is who we listen to there will be much better outcome to the glory of the Lord. But yet that lie or that bad-evil thing came out from God.
"It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.[/quote]"
I dont believe I would say "cannot" rather I would say "will not", for He will turn the obstacle in something for His glory.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 01:48:46 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 01:46:25 AM
Quote from: PaulHazlewood
It comes from the contrast through our lack of understanding, it is something inherant to our path and even God cannot change it.
Wow!! Paul you give us way too much power. If God cannot change a certain thing, then that makes that thing more powerful than God.
CHB
No it doesn't. God cannot lie, does that mean a lie is stronger than God?
Lets say God cannot lie,... although I think he could if he wanted to...I think this is another indirectly thing that God does. What would you call this? (2Thess. 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. This is one of those indirectly acts of God.
CHB
So, God just...sins side ways, instead of right in front of you?
Since God is the big boss and no one told him not to sin or lie therefore he does not sin or lie.
Since God is not sinful flesh nor does he have to obey any laws he doesn't, or will not, sin or lie.
CHB
So, he can tell us what to do, and not do it himself?
"Do as I say, not as I do"?
You seem to contradict yourself there micah, you say God cannot lie, but then say, when we lie it comes from God. In a sense you are right that the knowledge of evil has been given to man from God and gives us the right to choose blessings or cursings, but that does not mean that evil originates from God, this knowledge of evil God has given to man for the purpose of choosing between what is right and what is wrong.
The devil is the father of lies, so did God receive the knowledge of evil from the devil?
Did he then share this knowledge with man, to see if he was faithfull?
Or does God simply knew everything, without the devil, or did he have knowledge of evil because in his alpha and omega state he could go forward in time and find out what happens when a creature of his rebels. For if a creature did not rebel, how would God know what evil is? Because he himself would not be capable of creating evil, because he was perfect, and created the garden of eden in perfection, his angels perfect, the universe pefect, he created lucifer perfect but he became vain and did set his own course.
How else can a perfect God have knowledge of evil?
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 02:19:18 AM
So, he can tell us what to do, and not do it himself?
"Do as I say, not as I do"?
A frightening statement made by a man about his God.
He went to the cross for us, what more should He do?
No, that is not what I said, I said God creates the situation, the circumstance where the choice is there to make and depending where and who you are, one will either lie or not lie.
But if you want to get right down to the bone, then yes lies come from God for ALL THINGS come from God. But God does not nor can He lie.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 01, 2010, 02:27:55 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 02:19:18 AM
So, he can tell us what to do, and not do it himself?
"Do as I say, not as I do"?
A frightening statement made by a man about his God.
He went to the cross for us, what more should He do?
Amen. I dont know where you are today my friend Lefein.
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 02:19:18 AM
So, he can tell us what to do, and not do it himself?
"Do as I say, not as I do"?
If he chose to but who is there to tell God not to do something? God has changed and altered his own laws, the ones he told man not to break Jesus broke. God has no laws governing him. This "do as I say and not as I do" cannot apply to God.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Lets say God cannot lie,... although I think he could if he wanted to...I think this is another indirectly thing that God does. What would you call this? (2Thess. 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. This is one of those indirectly acts of God.
CHB
Or someone blamed God and wrote it down and someone believed it.
And the following verse if believed through straight forward reading is in the absolute sense showing people are damned, not saved.
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Quote
A frightening statement made by a man about his God.
He went to the cross for us, what more should He do?
The cross is thorough vanity if God is a liar, and a hypocrite. In fact, if God is a liar and a hypocrite; There
IS NO GOD.
Am I saying God is a liar and a hypocrite? No, certainly not my Yahweh, however if I see a false image of God, I will proceed to question it, and if it is folly...tear-it-down.
I have seen presented ideas that when taken to their fullest application - make God into the Devil himself.
QuoteAmen. I dont know where you are today my friend Lefein.
I am now thoroughly unamused by implications of doctrines that say God is the creator of all evil. Lies being the case example.
I am also thoroughly unamused by weird doctrines, that are unnecessary, and stretched.
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 02:16:17 AM
Since God is the big boss and no one told him not to sin or lie therefore he does not sin or lie.
Since God is not sinful flesh nor does he have to obey any laws he doesn't, or will not, sin or lie.
CHB
But God did not sin or lie, even when he came to earth in flesh and blood our likness, otherwise he would have broken the requirement of being the perfect sacrifice.
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 02:36:22 AM
Quote
A frightening statement made by a man about his God.
He went to the cross for us, what more should He do?
The cross is thorough vanity if God is a liar, and a hypocrite. In fact, if God is a liar and a hypocrite; There IS NO GOD.
Am I saying God is a liar and a hypocrite? No, certainly not my Yahweh, however if I see a false image of God, I will proceed to question it, and if it is folly...tear-it-down.
I have seen presented ideas that when taken to their fullest application - make God into the Devil himself.
QuoteAmen. I dont know where you are today my friend Lefein.
I am now thoroughly unamused by implications of doctrines that say God is the creator of all evil. Lies being the case example.
I am also thoroughly unamused by weird doctrines, that are unnecessary, and stretched.
You my friend will be battling the very Word of God and you will not win. If God is not ALL in ALL then you ar e correct in stating as you did
The cross is thorough vanity if God is a liar, and a hypocrite. In fact, if God is a liar and a hypocrite; There
IS NO GOD.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 02:35:34 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Lets say God cannot lie,... although I think he could if he wanted to...I think this is another indirectly thing that God does. What would you call this? (2Thess. 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. This is one of those indirectly acts of God.
CHB
Or someone blamed God and wrote it down and someone believed it.
And the following verse if believed through straight forward reading is in the absolute sense showing people are damned, not saved.
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Are you saying we shouldn't believe the Bible?
CHB
God will be all in all, but that is a very long time away. If it applies now then we will have to contend with evil and temptation forever, an exausting future.
QuoteYou my friend will be battling the very Word of God and you will not win. If God is not ALL in ALL then you ar e correct in stating as you did
The cross is thorough vanity if God is a liar, and a hypocrite. In fact, if God is a liar and a hypocrite; There IS NO GOD.
Again I ask; Is God the Author of Lies?
How is it battling the very word of God if I am insistent that he is not the author of lies while others claim he is the very creator of them? Do you not know that if God is the author of lies, the creator of them, that he is the Father of Lies?
When will I get a straight answer from the assembly concerning their beliefs?
I tell you, if God is the creator, and author of lies, then there is no word of God to be trusted, and there is no God, for he ceases to be perfect, and you cannot trust an imperfect deity.
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 02:45:52 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2010, 02:35:34 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Lets say God cannot lie,... although I think he could if he wanted to...I think this is another indirectly thing that God does. What would you call this? (2Thess. 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. This is one of those indirectly acts of God.
CHB
Or someone blamed God and wrote it down and someone believed it.
And the following verse if believed through straight forward reading is in the absolute sense showing people are damned, not saved.
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Are you saying we shouldn't believe the Bible?
CHB
No I am showing that just throwing out a verse doesn't prove anything.
Keep swinging the sword of truth lefein, Father GOD anoint his sword of truth, to cut between the bone and marrow the heart and spirit in the name of YAHushua.
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 02:49:59 AM
QuoteYou my friend will be battling the very Word of God and you will not win. If God is not ALL in ALL then you ar e correct in stating as you did
The cross is thorough vanity if God is a liar, and a hypocrite. In fact, if God is a liar and a hypocrite; There IS NO GOD.
Again I ask; Is God the Author of Lies?
How is it battling the very word of God if I am insistent that he is not the author of lies while others claim he is the very creator of them? Do you not know that if God is the author of lies, the creator of them, that he is the Father of Lies?
When will I get a straight answer from the assembly concerning their beliefs?
I tell you, if God is the creator, and author of lies, then there is no word of God to be trusted, and there is no God, for he ceases to be perfect, and you cannot trust an imperfect deity.
My friend, as for myself I will take myself out of this queery, it is edging on a subject that is off limits and you question will be difficult to explain and answer, from me without getting over the line. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 02:55:16 AM
Keep swinging the sword of truth lefein, Father GOD anoint his sword of truth, to cut between the bone and marrow the heart and spirit in the name of YAHushua.
The Sword
does not belong to lefein.
QuoteMy friend, as for myself I will take myself out of this queery, it is edging on a subject that is off limits and you question will be difficult to explain and answer, from me without getting over the line. Peace and Love Through Jesus
And now we see why I am quite cross with the assembly. -_-
I'll answer it for all of you, for all of the assembly;
Yahweh, is not, and never shall be the Father of Lies; He did not make them, he did not create them, he shall never create them, he shall never lie, nor bear false witness, nor create false witness, nor create lies.
Peace, love, and
Truth! Be upon you.
:cloud9: That's very true, Micah.......Lefein there is a sticky on this board about "Sovereignty". If you have not read it, you might want to. And.......one man's "weirdness" is another man's treasured manna from heaven. Blessings....
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 03:02:25 AM
QuoteMy friend, as for myself I will take myself out of this queery, it is edging on a subject that is off limits and you question will be difficult to explain and answer, from me without getting over the line. Peace and Love Through Jesus
And now we see why I am quite cross with the assembly. -_-
I'll answer it for all of you, for all of the assembly;
Yahweh, is not, and never shall be the Father of Lies; He did not make them, he did not create them, he shall never create them, he shall never lie, nor bear false witness, nor create false witness, nor create lies.
Peace, love, and Truth! Be upon you.
You forgot Amen!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 01, 2010, 03:01:15 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 02:55:16 AM
Keep swinging the sword of truth lefein, Father GOD anoint his sword of truth, to cut between the bone and marrow the heart and spirit in the name of YAHushua.
The Sword does not belong to lefein.
I thought someone might say that. The sword proceeds from the word. In revelation Christ smites the antichrist with his word, and when we speak Gods word the word proceeds from our mouth becuase we wield our mouth, but the truth comes from the anointing of Christ.
:2c:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2010, 09:08:15 PM
lefein, keep up the questioning, it is good to question and explore and discover, don't let anyone ever stop you.
I don't think I have seen anyone try to stop Lefein from asking questions.
Quote from: Lefein
I'll answer it for all of you, for all of the assembly;
Please count me out of the assembly you are referring to. Thanks. :happy3:
I pray for the day when God will reveal himself to all.
CHB
Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 03:02:25 AM
QuoteMy friend, as for myself I will take myself out of this queery, it is edging on a subject that is off limits and you question will be difficult to explain and answer, from me without getting over the line. Peace and Love Through Jesus
And now we see why I am quite cross with the assembly. -_-
I'll answer it for all of you, for all of the assembly;
Yahweh, is not, and never shall be the Father of Lies; He did not make them, he did not create them, he shall never create them, he shall never lie, nor bear false witness, nor create false witness, nor create lies.
Peace, love, and Truth! Be upon you.
Amen.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2010, 09:24:07 PM
There is a difference between creating evil, when as a limitless being he didn't have to and evil being a byproduct of a path that must happen as the nature of things and is something that God cannot change. God can take responsibility for evil existing based on knowing that the path to perfection was set in motion by him or simply as a result of Gods existance.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Simple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.
If man can only do evil without the help from God imo that means God (indirectly) creates/sustains evil.
All He has to do give all people on earth a Saul like experience and all evil is gone withing minutes.
But He doesn't. Why?
QuoteSimple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.
Lying, and lies. If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 12:03:45 AM
QuoteSimple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.
Lying, and lies. If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.
(John 8:44) says that the devil is the father of lies. But you have to ask yourself who created the devil? This is one of those indirect dealings with man.
CHB
According to my understanding:
The devil wasn't always the adversary, unless God purposefully created on purpose a monster who is as vile as the doctrine of Hell that came out of the devil's very mouth. In which case, God would have no right to punish him for doing what he was made to do. Yet punished we find him being, rebuked, cursed, and otherwise.
For what good purpose would God have to have made a "red headed step child" to constantly throw down, if the devil is innocent and only doing as God intended for him to do? Such a thing is inedible to a spirit who knows that God is love.
We can't use therefore, the excuse "God made the devil" as a run about for God creating lies. Evil is not an entity, it is the absence of Good, something that is absence, is not a "thing" it is an absence of "thing".
God created all things, he did not create absence. Lies are the absence of truth.
:cloud9: Have to disagree respectfully, Lefein......evil IS a thing, not merely the absence of good. I have been placed in the presence of pure evil more than once, allowed to be by the Lord, one time of which initially brought about my conversion experience.
I can tell you firsthand, though you may not believe it, that the 20 minutes I estimate I experienced that first time, brought with it a level of fear on to the soul that is nearly indescribable. I don't think if you fell off a cliff, the level of fear would be any less.
The very air surrounding this "thing" felt evil, and waves of hate accompanied it, that you could perceive. I believe the mental institutions are full of people who have had this same sort of experience and they were not believed, or simply lost their minds from it. Had I not turned to the Lord I would have been in the latter category. My :2c: Blessings....
Just because you can "feel" the gut twisting immensity of pitch black darkness, doesn't mean it is an entity.
I likewise, must respectfully disagree. My Father is too good to have made a monstrosity - and if he has, his trustworthiness is grossly diminished...and he is not worthy to be called Love, in my honest opinion. If God has created evil as an entity, and by his own hands made a monster, then certainly there should not be a problem with Eternal Damnation, because a deity capable of that sort of wickedness in creating a horror, is fully capable of torturing even the saints for ever, perpetually, and exponentially, without ceasing, for even the littlest of crimes.
I believe that God is nothing short of Hell if he brought forth evil as an entity - a monster.
:cloud9: I think we're talking apples and oranges now that I've read your last post.......you're talking evil as a principle and I'm talking evil as being(s) that are quite real. :dontknow:
Cardinal: I believe we are, so I shall clarify. I am indeed talking about Evil in principle, not those who practice it.
Beings can be evil, I believe that demons exist, and certainly evil men.
But their evil is not an entity, it is not as if they are filled with "anti-light". That is my point. Before there was light, there was...nothing, except God. That nothingness is an absence, it wasn't a created absence though. If that makes sense.
Sins, and wickedness come out of the heart, a heart that is full of God and love, and truth, and all of these good things - produces goodness. But a heart that is empty of God, is empty of life, love, truth, peace, etc. And being absent of these things, acts out in evil, and thinks evil thoughts.
A belly that is empty, rumbles and causes pain. A starving person driven to desperation for food will kill to satiate that void. A person who is "love-starved" will commit adultery, or sin to try and fill that void, that God fills with goodness. A person who is empty of that selfless, giving, content spirit - will have a void for greed that drives them to fill their emptiness with things they can get their hands on.
Such examples like this are what I mean when I say that evil is absence.
:cloud9: I see; thanks for the clarity..... :thumbsup:
You are welcome. Hopefully that clears it up for everyone who may have misunderstood my vehement disagreement with the idea that "God created evil".
God created the Tree of Good and Evil.
QuoteGod created the Tree of Good and Evil.
Knowledge of*
God did not create the principle of Evil.
Changed nothing of the point!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2010, 06:09:00 AM
God created the Tree of Good and Evil.
Please expoud I am perplexed with your brevity
Knowledge of something is alot different than making it.
I have knowledge of whoredom, but do I go out and sell women, taking young virgins and making them sluts for hire? No.
I will warn my sons, giving them knowledge of murder, but did I invent it? No.
__ __ __
This has become nonsense, and it is time for a good answer;
Why is it so important to you people that God create the principle of wickedness? To have made evil? Do none of you know what that means if he has created literally, the most horrid thing to ever have plagued life itself? Do none of you see the hypocrisy in God if he has made Sin - if he is the Father of Sin? The Father of Lies? Having invented lying?
Off topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???
How could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.
QuoteOff topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???
I could honestly care less. I refuse to stop using what I personally see as the epitome of evil just to please you. You're an adult, I don't have to hide the world from you to make a point, and neither will I do so.
QuoteHow could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.
The Serpent existed before Adam did, either way you look at it. Silly.
Enough of these avoidance games, I want an answer!
QuoteThis has become nonsense, and it is time for a good answer;
Why is it so important to you people that God create the principle of wickedness? To have made evil? Do none of you know what that means if he has created literally, the most horrid thing to ever have plagued life itself? Do none of you see the hypocrisy in God if he has made Sin - if he is the Father of Sin? The Father of Lies? Having invented lying?
If there is one thing I despise, it is a coward, who is brave enough to actually gird themselves up like a man and answer the tough questions? Anyone?!
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:17:36 AM
QuoteOff topic, but, your constant referral to whoredom is taxing.
Would you mind???
I could honestly care less. I refuse to stop using what I personally see as the epitome of evil just to please you. You're an adult, I don't have to hide the world from you to make a point, and neither will I do so.
I come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.
There is an understanding among some that God has a Huge Plan, that in some ways is beyond our limited scope of understanding. Thomas Kissinger writes about it in "The Noble Berean". It's available online. It includes God lowering mankind into this condition for a season, teaching us, while in the process, bringing us back to Himself - and all the better for it.
American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
...and praise Him for it!
QuoteI come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.
You aren't of the world, but you are still in it; Get used to it, if you've come here to avoid the world, then you're in a sorry state, and are failing miserably in your task as a son of God, blood bought, and given authority to bring light to the darkened earth! You're a city on a hill, and here you are hiding in a valley...and closing your gates to the enemy because you want to avoid the war...? -_- Or have I misunderstood you entirely? I hope it is the latter.
...Alas it seems only Jabcat has the bravery to even come close to answering.
Where is the fruit in this assembly?! I am certainly tired of leaves.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2010, 06:17:01 AM
How could Adam and Eve have partaken of the knowledge of something that did not yet exist?
Silly.
Well it seems as tho from what I have read on some posts here Adam had "knowledge" death or what would the Lord God have threaten Adam with it for if he hadnt? As far as I know death did not exist...silly.
And I agree about the trash thing too.
There should be no misunderstanding, either God is ALL and in ALL or He is not. If God did not create evil, and Light, then that God aint the God I believe in or have any desire to believe in.
Reference above Isaiah 45:7.
Amen Beloved Servant. He deserves our worship, praise, and our walking humbly before Him.
I can't quote exactly, but I'm reminded of the scripture along the lines of "what does the clay have to say to the potter who has made him so? Nothing, we don't have a thing to do with it, it's His prerogative. Do I fully understand it or always like it? Nope, but my "job" is to walk humbly before my God.
Lefein, I ask this gently but honestly; knowing that the following is often true about myself; are you sure you aren't railing against something you just don't as yet understand? At least please consider the possibility...
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:25:21 AM
QuoteI come here to avoid the world, don't bring its trash in with you.
You aren't of the world, but you are still in it; Get used to it, if you've come here to avoid the world, then you're in a sorry state, and are failing miserably in your task as a son of God, blood bought, and given authority to bring light to the darkened earth! You're a city on a hill, and here you are hiding in a valley...and closing your gates to the enemy because you want to avoid the war...? -_- Or have I misunderstood you entirely? I hope it is the latter.
...Alas it seems only Jabcat has the bravery to even come close to answering.
Where is the fruit in this assembly?! I am certainly tired of leaves.
The army moves when the trumpet sounds.
Until then sit at His feet and learn from Him.
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay—out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?
There you go Jabcat.
And Beloved I, me contend, that the trumpet is sounding and as the army was after latter rain, many are staying right where they were.
Oh, and P.S. I'm quickly backing back out of this discussion, as it appears it may need moderated if things don't settle. :mshock: :HeartThrob:
thanks micah for the reference :HeartThrob:
Jabcat; It doesn't take common sense (and I say this gently) that if God created evil, he created everything wrong with the world. And I don't think anyone knows quite what kind of god that would be.
People want to pretend that a deity who made evil is all powerful, no it merely means that in his imagination he devised wickedness, rape, murder, and all manner of horrors - slavery, human trafficking, abortion, torture, ruthlessness, abandonment, godlessness, blasphemy.
From his Imagination, God spoke into being, and created. God is no exception, out of the abundance of his heart his mouth spoke, and if his mouth spoke to create evil, then evil is abundant in his heart, and if evil is abundant in his heart, then the Lord our God is a wicked sinner...
I am not railing against something I don't understand, I am railing against the foolishness of what people don't understand when they call our God wicked by proxy, even unkowingly.
Not saying I got it all figured out, I don't brother...but I believe those scriptures must be reconciled - appropriately, rightly divided. The word there is 'ra', which has been hashed and re-hashed on earlier threads.
Suggestion; it might be interesting and enlightening to go back and explore some of those threads. :2c:
:cloud9: Lefein, read Deut. 28 and see if anything there in the list of curses looks familiar to your life, or that of your generations, and note WHO said these things would come upon those that were disobedient. We might be out from under the literal law, but the spiritual laws that are the root of the literal, are in effect until all the flesh is overcome.
God also said in another place, "Agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him." We are to humbly agree with whatever judgement to the flesh has come our way, it's not pleasant, but it is a greater test of our love for our Father to know that HE has used the firebrand to chastise us, and to humbly submit and still love Him no matter what, than it is to rail against the firebrand. My :2c:
P.S. I use it often, and it's a little weak, but sometimes by using the search feature on the main discussion board page some decent results come up. I'd think 'evil' would bring up quite a bit of results. Another :2c: :bigGrin:
(Good word for us all, Card).
Listen my friend and brother, God in His infinite wisdom created evil to humble His creation. Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
I am one who believes that the incident in the garden was not a fall, but a step.
Jehovah God knew that man would need the very knowledge of the tree that He charged man not to eat of. He knew that before man could appreciate good, man would have to know evil.
Yes, Jehovah God created evil-bad-calamities-trouble, and He knew man would have to "walk" through it to get to the good.
2Co 5:18 The all things, moreover, are of God,—who hath reconciled us unto himself, through Christ, and hath given, unto us, the reconciling ministry:—
He RECONCILED us, HE DID IT!
:cloud9: Amen, He knew exactly what was going to happen in the garden, for the simple reason that He knew once the commandment came (don't eat), what was in Adam (both of them were named Adam) that HE had made, would raise up. And then sin, as Paul said, taking occasion by the commandment, SLEW THEM. My :2c:
Cardinal, there is a mighty difference between chastisement, and evil.
A father might use his hand to swat the bottom of his child, that is goodness, the curse is his sore bottom. But for the father to strangle the boy with that very same hand, is an evil thing that is heartless in the way of God.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:53:50 AM
Cardinal, there is a mighty difference between chastisement, and evil.
A father might use his hand to swat the bottom of his child, that is goodness, the curse is his sore bottom. But for the father to strangle the boy with that very same hand, is an evil thing that is heartless in the way of God.
:cloud9: Yes, but I can tell you there is greater work POSSIBILITY inherant in greater evil situations, because where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. But it is a supreme test to praise God thru it, and force the flesh and emotions to see God's hand in it. I speak from experience here, as my then 20 year-old son was attacked and beaten with steel pipes and brain damaged from it, and only given a 20% chance of survival, so severe were his injuries.
I now KNOW by experience, don't just BELIEVE it from scriptures, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. The difference as always, is in the motive of the heart, and though it may look evil to us, God means it to produce good fruit.
In this case, my son recovered 90%, a verifiable miracle, a witness to everyone he came in contact with in the hospital and rehab, was saved 2 weeks after getting out, and was even able to pray for his almost murderers, something his mother here could not yet do at the time. My :2c:
Heb 5:12 For, even when ye ought to be teachers, by reason of the time, again, have ye, need, that one be teaching, you, what are the first principles of the oracles of God, and have become such as have, need, of milk, not, of strong food;
Heb 5:13 For, every one partaking of milk, is unskilled in discourse of righteousness, for he is, a babe;
Heb 5:14 But, to such as are mature, pertaineth, the strong food, to them who, by reason of habit, have their organs of perception well trained for discriminating both good and evil.
Why pray tell should I love a god who has invented every kind of wickedness, and subjected all of us to it for his "good" pleasure?
It might be helpful to take that to God - open, humble, admitting ignorance and asking Him to help you understand and give you wisdom. It's something I pray sometimes ("help me see, give me wisdom"), but I sure do need to do it more often.
If we can clear our mind of preconceived ideas and just ask Him to "let me see", I believe He will honor that request. Sometimes it may be instant, sometimes slowly through trial, tribulation, and pain - but all part of the growing process.
P.S. I believe we need to love Him as He is, not how we wish, understand, or insist that He be.
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 07:21:55 AM
It might be helpful to take that to God - open, humble, admitting ignorance and asking Him to help you understand and give you wisdom. It's something I pray sometimes ("help me see, give me wisdom"), but I sure do need to do it more often.
If we can clear our mind of preconceived ideas and just ask Him to "let me see", I believe He will honor that request. Sometimes it may be instant, sometimes slowly through trial, tribulation, and pain - but all part of the growing process.
P.S. I believe we need to love Him as He is, not how we wish, understand, or insist that He be.
:thumbsup:
I'm still working on it/He's still working on me with it. ...and miles to go before I sleep...
There is a man who I will call, George, and he has a daughter who I will call, Melanie.
This girl is seven years old, and ran away from her father after being told she couldn't watch TV after 9:00; she's only a child, she ran about a block away from the house out of rebellion.
The father, George, sent his sons who I will not name, to retrieve her.
He told his sons, to beat her with a rake, and drag her back home.
They did so, and she ran away again this time from being beaten with a rake.
He then told his sons go go and beat her with a shovel, and drag her back home.
They did so, and upon his sons returning her, he told his daughter;
"I love you, don't run away again."
The daughter has since then lived in wretched fear of George, and her brothers.
I do not intend to make light of miraculous events but to address the root of the problem. As I have said before, if God is as we get taught, this limitless being that can do absolutely anything but what he does do is all justified because he says he is God, then there is no true distinction between good and evil. For the human it is only a matter of finding that connection between the image of his creator and his own actions that gives the illlusion of the humans righteousness in all he does.
The root of the issue is if we really cannot understand what God will and won't do because it is God, For that to be true then it is impossible for any human to assert with scripture or otherwise anything about him. We see this all the time, someone will assert that we cannot understand why God does something in the midst of explaining the TRUTH that they see and make assertion of THEIR understanding when the one explaining their take on God has simply contradicted themselves and the whole notion that "we cannot understand".
Once you assert that "we cannot understand" you lose the position that you can explain anything about God at all.
We can understand. I understand that God does not cause evil, he does not think it, and I do not have any reason to entertain such things because The God I serve seeks to destroy it, not to cause it for a good purpose, it's nonsense.
Why as believers are we instructed in such a manner to seek God and then only be told that we cannot understand by people promoting their understanding. The contradiction alone speaks for itself.
I am fine with believing that what tradition has told us about the justifiable acts of God is poppycock. You can say I do not understand, and perhaps if I have to understand that God "caused" my neice to get raped for a good purpose, then I'll gladly be an atheist as I am much better off than having to think my faith must include such putrid garbage as that.
Seems I think an under tow of fear still exists within the realm of this undeniable love we are supposed to embrace, perhaps it isn't loving God as he is, it is the picture we are told to embrace that is indeed wrong. I won't believe it and if that causes an issue and God smites me or something, then indeed I was right and God is evil after all.
Hi Paul. Not arguing your position, I don't like to argue. :bigGrin:
I would though be interested in how you see the scriptures in Isaiah I listed earlier, as well as the one micah posted (sorry, I'm at work and on this computer, if I try to g back and look something up sometimes I lose where I am - they're the posts several back, you probably already saw them anyway). Anyway, what's your understanding of those verses? Thanks, James.
These 2 -
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. Is 45:7
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay—out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?
If you will, plz share how you see these verses...your thoughts may help with this admittedly difficult topic.
It must mean calamity, or else God has wickedness in his heart, and he is not perfect, let alone Holy, and has no right to call himself Holy.
As for authority to make vessels of honour, or dishonour; having the power to do something doesn't mean you exercise it; if the verse somehow implies that the vessels are permanently for the purpose of honour, or dishonour. Another idea; Having the power to humble a person by humiliation, and honour another be exaltation is not set in stone.
If I have the power, I can humiliate a man and dishonour him for disobedience, and a multitude of unrighteous things - and then exalt him into a vessel of honour upon his repentance. Not a single one of us lumps of clay have yet to be fired in the kiln, we are all still upon the wheel.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
I'm going to look at your link Lefein. I also went on the TM homepage, typed in evil, and found these 2 links. I HAVE NOT READ THEM IN THEIR ENTIRETY, though I did read perhaps 2 % of one and 1/2% of another. I'm going to look at them more closely, so without fully knowing what's in them, I'm posting them off the Tentmaker recommended reading page;
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/027ThePurposeOfEvil.htm
Actually, interestingly, I see now that one of the links is entitled "The Problem of Evil" - same as this thread. :mshock:
Interesting, I'll look at them later probably - as it is very, very late...
But I have one question left;
Did God invent every manner, and method of wickedness?
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 07:42:47 AM
Hi Paul. Not arguing your position, I don't like to argue. :bigGrin:
I would though be interested in how you see the scriptures in Isaiah I listed earlier, as well as the one micah posted (sorry, I'm at work and on this computer, if I try to g back and look something up sometimes I lose where I am - they're the posts several back, you probably already saw them anyway). Anyway, what's your understanding of those verses? Thanks, James.
James I'm sure you know by now that someone arguing with me has never been a problem, it is when someone makes personal comments towards me acting as if they have not done anything of the kind that sets me off and I haven't found a reason to feel bad about that yet. :)
If you are talking about Isaiah 45:7 post #56 addresses that.
If the other verse is this one this simply is a verse helping to reinforce the understanding of why we are to love our enemies. Some religious thought especially the prosperity doctrine teaches that if bad things happen to you it is because you are bad and good things happen if you are good. It is nonsense because this is telling us the complete opposite is in effect.
Despite reaping what we sow, evil people still can reap good harvests when they abound.
Mat 5:45 That ye may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens: because, his sun, he maketh arise on evil and good, and sendeth rain, on just and unjust.
If it might be this one
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
The reality of God is that by nature he exists completely everywhere in and through all things, Evil exists within God not because he causes it, but because his spirit is not actually non existant where evil is present. It is to reinforce the fact that no matter how bad things get God has not left and gone anywhere and that his assurance that all will be made right is still present.
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay out of the same lump, to make some, indeed, into a vessel for honour, and some for dishonour?
Ro 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The above verses in blue comes back to two things,
1. We all are Gods children, those who do evil and those who do good and probably when it comes right down to it, there is none that have not done both. We are all from the same God. It is again telling us that if we do not love our enemies then we hate someone God loves.
2 This reminds us that there are things that must be and God cannot change them or there would be no reason for him to be longsuffering. We are fitted to destruction most often through the actions of our own will because we are free to make choices that bring pain and suffering, that is just how it is. None of that thwarts the assurance from God that all will be made right. God knows what must happen the same way we learn to know that we cannot rip open a cocoon and actually be doing a good thing.
Thanks for the reply Paul. Much to consider, for sure.
Lefein, I personally don't fully know or understand the depths of this topic. I've got more praying, seeking, openness, and humbling to do. I've probably said enough, and though I'm one to really struggle with weightier matters, sometimes in the midst of it I personally have to go back and touch on some basics, finding some rest therein. I'll share these 2 that are special to me;
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world." John 4:42
No, O people, the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 12:03:45 AM
QuoteSimple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.
Lying, and lies. If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.
Who created the creatures with the possibility to lie?
Did God create the possibility to die? Does that make God the God of death?
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 01:28:13 AM
According to my understanding:
The devil wasn't always the adversary,
He was a murder from the begining.
QuoteFor what good purpose would God have to have made a "red headed step child" to constantly throw down, if the devil is innocent and only doing as God intended for him to do? Such a thing is inedible to a spirit who knows that God is love.
That kind of logic can easlily be turned against you.
Father could have created everything in a sinless state. 10 billion copies of Jesus. He did not. He for example created Romans who killed Jesus.
So Father is a murderer....?
QuoteWe can't use therefore, the excuse "God made the devil" as a run about for God creating lies. Evil is not an entity, it is the absence of Good, something that is absence, is not a "thing" it is an absence of "thing".
God created all things, he did not create absence. Lies are the absence of truth.
If truth is the goal and many don't know it then:
a] It's all according to plan.
b] He failed at creating things that know the truth.
c] He lost control and Jesus is a backup plan to fix the problems of evil.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 08:22:30 AM
Interesting, I'll look at them later probably - as it is very, very late...
But I have one question left;
Did God invent every manner, and method of wickedness?
People with limited brains invent things. I think God never invented a single thing. He just knows.
Because He knew all that would happen even before creation He also knew about all wickedness.
Still He created the way He created. Don't you think He could have created a sinless creation?
If yes; why didn't He? Was this the best He could do? Did He accept certain 'side effects"?
So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;
"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:09:26 PM
So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;
"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"
I think for the most part if you view God a certain way then talk about that. Everyone has a view of scripture and hope that they have seen God in the correct perspective. Others can say God did this or that for a good purpose I simply see it differently than some and that is what I will tell people about.
What do you actually believe about God or are you relying on one of us to figure it out for you?
:cloud9: I see it this way.....we were all lowered into a state like that of coal. We were diamonds before we were lowered, reflecting His light. After He processes us here (and hereafter) we will be diamonds with our own portion of His light. Diamonds are formed from tremendous heat and pressure in the earth.
Light is the spectrum that goes thru a diamond giving it "life" and fire, and you can see colors in the diamond via it, that you couldn't see before without the addition of the light. The bow in the cloud promise, is a promise of covenant, that means those "clouds" will have their own rainbow, the 7 spirits of God, the fulness, after going thru the fire.
What sense does it make to complain about the process He uses, ascribing evil to it and to Him, because He uses the fire (brand) and pressure to accomplish that which is eternal, fruit that remaineth, within the framework of that which is temporary and fleeting? Our lives here are as grass that withereth. My :2c:
Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.
I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.
And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil. And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.
It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.
This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate. We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good. And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.
If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible. What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?
Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold. Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.
It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite. People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine. People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;
"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them :cloud9: :HeartThrob: "
That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".
Should I blindly trust such a god? Should I accept him as my father? Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:09:26 PM
So basically we can boil down the whole universe to this phrase;
"Who needs Eternal Damnation when we can worship Hell himself and call him Father?"
"However, evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.1" (From your website godand science)
Religious folks believe in the adversary/satan/devil and adversary/satan/devil is not a created thing, at least not that I can find. I will believe Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
The Lord has given me the mind of Christ, thus He has given to me His understanding as to the Truth that His is in and through ALL things "the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Peace and Love Through Jesus
"I see it this way.....we were all lowered into a state like that of coal. We were diamonds before we were lowered,"(Cardinal)
Just when were we diamonds? (I know its a metaphor.)
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. (ASV)
1Co 15:46 Nevertheless, it is not what is spiritual that came first, but what is animal; what is spiritual came afterwards. (WNT)
QuoteThe Lord has given me the mind of Christ
If God is the author of evil, then the mind of Christ is nothing less than vile, and full of iniquity. But I too have the mind of Christ, yet here I am displeased entirely by such a terrible doctrine that has been presented.
According to my understanding...God isn't wicked, and he doesn't father wickedness.
___ ___ ___
I want to know, I want the answer; why is it so gosh darn important to you people that God is the author of evil, wickedness, and everything wrong with the universe? And do any of you even fathom what that even means?
Really, I'm quite puzzled at the sheer weirdness of accepting such poison.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 06, 2010, 08:58:50 PM
Religious folks believe in the adversary/satan/devil and adversary/satan/devil is not a created thing, at least not that I can find. I will believe Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
The Lord has given me the mind of Christ, thus He has given to me His understanding as to the Truth that His is in and through ALL things "the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Sometimes our religious views are just really hard to let go of, brother micah. I fight and struggle to see things my own way, in a way that my mind thinks "makes sense". Sometimes we just can't see, until there's a breaking process that brings us to where we're ready and able. Here's another scripture that goes along with your quote above;
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. Romans 13:1
Isn't that more evidence God uses all things for His purposes? As Card said, our lives here, compared to "eternity", are but a wisp, that quickly vanishes. God will end it all in good.
What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life? (Ernest Martin teaches on this. Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought). Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion. :2c:
Lefein, this is a discussion. No one needs to make the other see things their way, nor should other people's understanding of scripture be called poison, if they are truly attempting to get their beliefs from scripture, and not just willfully twisting things. There are a lot of great lovers of God who hold this understanding.
You've said a lot of things about God and now Jesus, that if you're wrong in your POV, are indeed some very strong words.
You just may want to think about it. There's been no one in this discussion that have broken forum guidelines by saying the scriptures are false, there's just different interpretations...we don't have to always like that, but we may need to realize that's the way it is. We look through a glass darkly. We can share, discuss, but only God brings true understanding.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 09:17:15 PM
QuoteThe Lord has given me the mind of Christ
If God is the author of evil, then the mind of Christ is nothing less than vile, and full of iniquity.
Well if those are your true feelings and thoughts, then perhaps this is where Paul was at when he said
1Co 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus),
1Co 5:5 to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
When you first began posting, to me, you were a positive poster of God' work, now lately it seems you have turned to a negative veiw of God's work. I say this of a truth I love you and I pray you find His way.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Negative to God's work? No. Negative to people calling injustice the work of God, calling injustice goodness, calling sin virtue, and turning a holy God into a monster.
I'm locking this thead for 10 minutes. I'll reopen it, but I want to give everyone a chance to think, perhaps pray, and regroup. It may help us be more on-track. Hang tight, consider how you wish to proceed....
it's reopened.
Lefein, I can understand that you have great problems with God managing evil.
I have great problems with God drowning people in the flood, roasting the people of Sodom, ordering to kill pregnant women, etc.
Problematic but still scriptual...
I'm beginning to wonder what the difference is between the Yahweh of this assembly, and Zeus...
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2010, 09:50:59 PM
Lefein, I can understand that you have great problems with God managing evil.
I have great problems with God drowning people in the flood, roasting the people of Sodom, ordering to kill pregnant women, etc.
Problematic but still scriptual...
That's why I say sometimes I don't fully understand it, or always like it. The only things I personally know to do are to read the scriptures, ask God for understanding and wisdom, humble myself before Him, and trust Him - and believe that WHATEVER the Potter does, it's best for His clay, is for His glory, our ultimate good, and everything will be perfect.
On the advice of Jabcat, I am leaving this topic to seek God in prayer.
If God really is the author of Evil, which I hope to be right in saying he isn't...Then I hope I have not fully upset the Deity into tearing off every blessing I've asked for and smiting me with all of the evils he has made.
I am not at peace, I do not feel life in me, or joy, or happiness, or even remotely safe, and I do not feel secure, these are not good omens.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 09:54:54 PM
I'm beginning to wonder what the difference is between the Yahweh of this assembly, and Zeus...
Not everyone here thinks the same way so I at least would appreciate if you don't lump everyone together.
I agree with you, Lefein. Only good comes from God.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
I agree. We may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is and entails sometimes though - i.e., the scope of the definition. Maybe Who God Is exists somewhere between the extremes of our ability to understand or express it. IMO, that's a real good reason to keep going back to basics, sticking to the Word, then pray for and be open to Spirit-revelation within it. :2c:
Blessings. :bigGrin:
P.S. I'm not saying we can't have understanding or know Who God Is. However, it's probably somewhat outside the scope of our carnal mind to fully understand or express it, and I believe sometimes we kick against Him by our own thoughts that are not His thoughts. (I know I do). It is a journey.
Quote from: JabWe may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is ...
Yes, good point because it is not really 'good' we are talking about here, it's righteousness. And, what looks 'good' to us might not always be what is righteous.
Isaiah 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2010, 12:22:12 AM
Quote from: JabWe may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is ...
Yes, good point because it is not really 'good' we are talking about here, it's righteousness. And, what looks 'good' to us might not always be what is righteous.
Isaiah 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Very well stated point. (notice how I so cleverly stayed away from using good? :laughing7:
:thumbsup: :bigGrin:
Yes, I said "maybe God exists somewhere between our extremes". I thought though too, He probably exists in many way outside some of the extremes we could imagine too. Just a thought.
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life? (Ernest Martin teaches on this. Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought). Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion. :2c:
:cloud9: Wow....never heard of Ernest Martin, but I shared a dream/vision on here before about the same thing. Thank you for confirmation...... :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2010, 10:47:03 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 12:03:45 AM
QuoteSimple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.
Lying, and lies. If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.
Who created the creatures with the possibility to lie?
Did God create the possibility to die? Does that make God the God of death?
Not the God of death but a bored God, who plays toy soldiers with Himself.
But he creted creatures after himself who can create.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 07, 2010, 01:11:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life? (Ernest Martin teaches on this. Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought). Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion. :2c:
:cloud9: Wow....never heard of Ernest Martin, but I shared a dream/vision on here before about the same thing. Thank you for confirmation...... :thumbsup:
Hi Cardinal,
Dr. Martin was the first one I heard talk about the salvation of all, he was Chairman of the Department of Theology at Ambassador College for the WWCG which I was a member also. When Dr. Martin left the WWCG in 1974, I believe, I left also and read mainly his articles until he died. Dr. Martin left the WWCG because he came to see that all would be saved which the WWCG could not accept. Dr. Martin was always willing to change his mind when proven wrong which a lot of people cannot do. I am so thankful that God brought Dr. Martin into my life, otherwise I would still be in the WWCG under bondage. Now!! back on topic. :bigGrin:
Here is one of his articles. "Judgment on Man and God" http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm
CHB
:cloud9: Thanks CHB, will check it out :thumbsup:
If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.
If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do. Thank you in advance.
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 03:58:47 AM
If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.
If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do. Thank you in advance.
Your own heart is a good place to start. you can get information overload and usually it is the people who think it is bad and unholy if you happen to believe something they do not like that can give the most trouble. Ignore that and see the Good you know is there.
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life? (Ernest Martin teaches on this. Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought). Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion. :2c:
URL please :banana:
I've read the exact same thing in several NDEs.
Quote from: CHB on November 07, 2010, 02:20:25 AMDr. Martin left the WWCG because he came to see that all would be saved which the WWCG could not accept.
I think that ws only one of the reasons. There was also disagreement over the crucifixion day. Pitty he died before I've started reading his stuff. I have some questions for him :winkgrin:
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 03:58:47 AM
If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.
If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do. Thank you in advance.
I think a little word study would be a good start.
Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil."
Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.
Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it
is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
I often receive emails from readers who assert that the word "evil" in this verse
should be translated "calamity." That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little
would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in
Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a "calamity" rather than an "evil?"
What would be gained by calling "evils" by the name "calamities"? That is
nonsense.
Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is the
Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for "calamity" is the Hebrew word ade which
means "misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means "bad or
evil." It is the same word used for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil
[ra]." It was not the tree of the knowledge of "good and calamity." Did Jacob
really mean to say, "a calamitous beast" had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)?
Did Israel really "do calamity in the sight of God" by worshipping Balaam, or did
they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means "bad or evil" and it is used over four hundred times to
represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil
against His creatures all day long
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html 40% down the page.
YLTIsa 45
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
רעה / רע
ra‛ / râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7489
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2191a, 2191c
ַרע
ra‛, ָרָעה
rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9; Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc 12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa 30:22; Est 7:6; Jer 2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen 6:5) from childhood (Gen 8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu 17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu 9:18; 1Ki 14:22). The day of the Lord's judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo 6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen 44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo 5:19; 2Ki 14:10).
The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen 47:9; Num 20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen 28:8]). The rabble's cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num 11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen 37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker's and the butler's faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen 40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro 25:20).
In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh's dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen 41:3, Gen 41:20, Gen 41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki 2:19; 2Ki 4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything.
Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa 23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo 32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun.
All verses (I hope) using the Hebrew word ra:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good.
Genesis 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
Genesis 31:29 It is in the power of my hand to do you hurt: but the God of your father spake unto me yesternight, saying, Take thou heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
Genesis 41:21 And when they had eaten them up, it could not be known that they had eaten them; but they were still ill favoured, as at the beginning. So I awoke.
Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Leviticus 27:10 He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy.
Leviticus 27:12 And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be.
Leviticus 27:14 And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD, then the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest shall estimate it, so shall it stand.
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
Numbers 11:10 Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
Numbers 22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
Deuteronomy 15:21 And if there be any blemish therein, as if it be lame, or blind, or have any ill blemish, thou shalt not sacrifice it unto the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
Deuteronomy 22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 23:9 When the host goeth forth against thine enemies, then keep thee from every wicked thing.
Deuteronomy 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Deuteronomy 28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
1 Samuel 17:28 And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.
1 Samuel 29:7 Wherefore now return, and go in peace, that thou displease not the lords of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 30:22 Then answered all the wicked men and men of Belial, of those that went with David, and said, Because they went not with us, we will not give them ought of the spoil that we have recovered, save to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away, and depart.
2 Samuel 13:3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.
1 Kings 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
1 Kings 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
1 Kings 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
2 Kings 4:41 But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.
1 Chronicles 2:3 The sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah: which three were born unto him of the daughter of Shua the Canaanitess. And Er, the firstborn of Judah, was evil in the sight of the LORD; and he slew him.
1 Chronicles 27:33 And Ahithophel was the king's counsellor: and Hushai the Archite was the king's companion:
2 Chronicles 33:9 So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel.
Nehemiah 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
Nehemiah 2:2 Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
Nehemiah 6:13 Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me.
Nehemiah 9:28 But after they had rest, they did evil again before thee: therefore leftest thou them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them: yet when they returned, and cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and many times didst thou deliver them according to thy mercies;
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 5:19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
Job 31:29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Psalm 7:4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:)
Psalm 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Psalm 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Psalm 36:4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.
Psalm 41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Psalm 49:5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?
Psalm 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
Psalm 64:5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psalm 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Psalm 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 101:4 A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.
Psalm 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Psalm 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
Psalm 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psalm 140:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
Psalm 140:11 Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him.
Psalm 141:4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.
Proverbs 2:12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
Proverbs 2:14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
Proverbs 5:14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.
Proverbs 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Proverbs 6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 11:15 He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure.
Proverbs 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Proverbs 12:13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble.
Proverbs 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.
Proverbs 12:21 There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.
Proverbs 14:22 Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.
Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.
Proverbs 17:11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
Proverbs 19:23 The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 20:8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
Proverbs 20:14 It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.
Proverbs 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.
Proverbs 21:10 The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.
Proverbs 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
Proverbs 25:20 As he that taketh away a garment in cold weather, and as vinegar upon nitre, so is he that singeth songs to an heavy heart.
Proverbs 26:23 Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross.
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Proverbs 28:10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.
Proverbs 28:22 He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.
Proverbs 29:6 In the transgression of an evil man there is a snare: but the righteous doth sing and rejoice.
Proverbs 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecclesiastes 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 4:8 There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail.
Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
Ecclesiastes 5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and there is nothing in his hand.
Ecclesiastes 6:2 A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.
Ecclesiastes 8:3 Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him.
Ecclesiastes 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Ecclesiastes 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isaiah 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 21:12 O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
Jeremiah 39:12 Take him, and look well to him, and do him no harm; but do unto him even as he shall say unto thee.
Jeremiah 40:4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.
Jeremiah 42:6 Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.
Jeremiah 44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Ezekiel 11:2 Then said he unto me, Son of man, these are the men that devise mischief, and give wicked counsel in this city:
Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
Hosea 7:15 Though I have bound and strengthened their arms, yet do they imagine mischief against me.
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Amos 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
Amos 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Micah 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
Micah 3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Habakkuk 2:9 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
Zephaniah 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Malachi 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
YLTDeut 32
35 Mine are vengeance and recompense, At the due time--doth their foot slide; For near is a day of their calamity, And haste do things prepared for them.
איד
'êyd
BDB Definition:
1) distress, burden, calamity
1a) burden (of the righteous)
1b) calamity (of nation)
1c) disaster (of wicked)
1d) day of calamity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from the same as H181 (in the sense of bending down)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 38c
ֵאיד
'ēyḏ: A masculine noun meaning calamity or disaster. The word refers to a time of trouble when a person is in special need of help (Pro 27:10); a calamity so severe that men and women should not rejoice or take selfish advantage of those whom the disaster renders helpless before God (Job 31:23; Pro 17:5; Oba 1:13). The calamity may result from a deliberate violation of principles (Pro 1:26) or a more explicit judgment of God (Jer 18:17). It may even befall a righteous person (2Sa 22:19; Psa 18:18
All verse using the Hebrew word for calamity:
(Deuteronomy 32:35 KJV) To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
(2 Samuel 22:19 KJV) They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
(Job 18:12 KJV) His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
(Job 21:17 KJV) How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
(Job 21:30 KJV) That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
(Job 30:12 KJV) Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.
(Job 31:3 KJV) Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
(Job 31:23 KJV) For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.
(Psalm 18:18 KJV) They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
(Proverbs 1:26 KJV) I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
(Proverbs 1:27 KJV) When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
(Proverbs 6:15 KJV) Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
(Proverbs 17:5 KJV) Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.
(Proverbs 24:22 KJV) For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
(Proverbs 27:10 KJV) Thine own friend, and thy father's friend, forsake not; neither go into thy brother's house in the day of thy calamity: for better is a neighbour that is near than a brother far off.
(Jeremiah 18:17 KJV) I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
(Jeremiah 46:21 KJV) Also her hired men are in the midst of her like fatted bullocks; for they also are turned back, and are fled away together: they did not stand, because the day of their calamity was come upon them, and the time of their visitation.
(Jeremiah 48:16 KJV) The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast.
(Jeremiah 49:8 KJV) Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.
(Jeremiah 49:32 KJV) And their camels shall be a booty, and the multitude of their cattle a spoil: and I will scatter into all winds them that are in the utmost corners; and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, saith the LORD.
(Ezekiel 35:5 KJV) Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:
(Obadiah 1:13 KJV) Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
Here are some thots, that might also go along with the thread re: soul.
As a man thinketh, so IS he (present tense, BEing)
some thots from a friend of mine:
"I will venture to say then, that on a parabolic level I see Eve as that part of our mind which contains the womb or birthing place of thought....an idea that begins to conceptualized...this takes place in the conscious mind (as I understand it scientifically)
I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....
Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...
".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6
he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...
Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...
the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...
the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....
this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...
the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent
sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses
prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action
this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...
and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...
eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14
what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...
there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)
For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,
then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...
the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...
so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive
so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....
interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....
in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing ...
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
so, the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....
what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ....
"
Be transformed by the REnewing of your mind.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/i_make_peace_and_create_evil_not_any_more._6497.msg70038.html#msg70038
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2010, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life? (Ernest Martin teaches on this. Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought). Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion. :2c:
URL please :banana:
I've read the exact same thing in several NDEs.
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm
(Lefein, the two links I gave earlier in the thread are from the TM homepage if you haven't yet looked at them.)
Excerpts from "God's Use of Evil and Alottment", Ernest L. Martin (1995)
The Bible from beginning to end shows that God is Almighty. He is the Almighty God! This means the Godhead is in charge of all that happens in the universe and there is nothing that occurs within the heavenly or earthly realm that God is not supervising. He is in complete control of everything. His utter and thorough power is summed up well in First Chronicles 29:11. 'Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all." So powerful is God that Satan the Devil obeys every command that God gives him (Job 1:6-12;2:1-8). There is no controversy going on between God and Satan because there is no match and\or comparison between the two. Satan's power is merely a reflection of that which emanates from God and God could cut off the power and authority of Satan by a snap of the finger if he so wished. Also, the Bible shows that God governs the evil found in the universe and is ultimately responsible for it. Truly, God is Almighty.
James stated that God knows all things that he has planned from the beginning and that the details of that plan will be carried out precisely according to God's dictates (Acts 15:18). God projected that Christ would enter the world and die in place of mankind for their sins. He would be "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). Christ was prophesied to die at a particular time, in a certain spot, and by a select group of people, and it was all in the strategy devised by God from the beginning.
The crucifixion of Christ (God's own Son) was the greatest evil that had been planned within the foreknowledge of God the Father. And the exact detail of the crucifixion was prophesied beforehand and was an evil planned by God. Indeed, we are told in the Bible that God not only creates good that he dispenses to any in the universe as he pleases, but he also creates evil and uses it in the best way he knows in order to accomplish his purposes. God says: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Yes, God creates evil. See all of Isaiah 54:16 and Amos 3:6 for two of the many scriptures that show that God creates and uses EVIL in any way he wants.
--------------------------------
This principle of being chosen before the world's foundation in a divine lottery was well known to the apostles. Note that Peter said the elders who taught Christians in his day should not lord it over the Christians in their congregations (whom he called people chosen by "the lots" (I Peter 5:3). These were the ones chosen at the pre-creation time when the divine lottery was held to determine who would be given the knowledge of Christ during this age. See First Peter 5:3 where the King James translators render the Greek words "the lots," by our English words "God's heritage." The English translators simply did not understand the ancient lots system of choosing important people to perform roles in the presence of God.....
....Now some may say that this is completely unfair because how could God find fault with evil people for their ways since it was God who appointed them to do what they did. Indeed, this is the very question that Paul himself raised. He said: "Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he [God] yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" (Romans 9:19). Paul answered such a question by simply stating that the potter has power over the clay to make a pot good or to make one bad, and this means that God also has the power to do the same thing. In fact, Paul went on to state that God the Father had deliberately blinded the eyes of most Israelites who lived in his day from accepting Christ Jesus. He said God would continue to blind their eyes from accepting Christ until the full appointed number of the Gentiles come into their pre-ordained relationships with God. This does not mean, however, that God has abandoned Israel and the promises he made to them for salvation. Paul said:
'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so ALL Israel shall be SAVED' (Romans 11:25,26).
All Israelites (every single one of them – Jews and those of the other tribes) will one day be saved in Christ. They have been promised this salvation, and they will receive it without doubt. This is the plain teaching of the Bible.
"For as concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [on the part of God]. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:28-32).
Notice that it is God who has purposely blinded the eyes of most Israelites to prevent them from accepting Christ now. Some people (and nations of people) were elected by use of the divine lottery before the foundation of the world to accept the truth now, and others were elected by the same divine lottery to be negative in their acceptance of the truth.
This lottery was the fair way of letting all people and nations have an equal chance of being selected to do the will of God in regard to specific events pre-ordained in God's plan for the redemption of the human race to himself. When one surveys the Holy Scriptures regarding this principle of using a divine lottery to determine who was to do what and at what time in history, then we can see the fairness and equality of God in action among all the people he was going to create. The outcome of such a lottery means that the Japhetic race of people could have been the ones chosen by God to do what the Shemitic races have in fact done in this world, had the lottery fell in their favor instead of Shem. The Hamitic races also could have had the same blessing had the lottery fallen out to favor them. The simple truth is, the lot fell out to favor Shem and to specific children of Shem to have the fullness of the teaching of God given to them in this age (and through them to bring forth the Messiah who would arise to save the world from their sins). God chose the lottery as a means of being fair with all the people he was going to create and bring into his divine Family in the future.
This is why none of us who have the truth now should boast because the lot fell out to us before the foundation of the world......
We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read. Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.
Does evil, such as spanking a child, but did not create evil.
If God created evil, then he is evil or a part of him is and we should not trust him.
I have a new theory on the origin of evil and it was quite eye opening and makes sense of this mess we live in.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 07, 2010, 07:44:18 PM
We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read. Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.
Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.
I just finished reading this article. It talks about all the calamities that happen in the world and who is at fault. About blaming God.
"Judgment on Man and God" http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm
After reading this article I have come to the conclusion that one reason God has dealt with man by evil is to teach man forgiveness.
We will need to come to the point where we will FORGIVE GOD for all the things done in this world that we consider evil.
If we can forgive God for all the evils that have occurred to man since the beginning of time then we have truly become a son of God.
When you think about it, God has really poured it on us. We have had children killed, lost everything we had, most have experienced sickness, mental anguish. All of this and more have come from God. God forgives us, we learn to forgive God, a mutual forgiveness. We are becoming like God.
CHB
So our heavenly father came to kill, steal, and destroy so that we might forgive him?
So our heavenly father beat, molested, and pillaged us like a drunken mad man so our long suffering selves might let our grace abound upon him and his wicked state?
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
Yet, in the midst of all of this "ends justify the means" business, we find God no longer benevolent, or sinless - but beating, molesting, and pillaging.
These facts, providing that God is indeed the author and doer of these things whether directly, or by proxy; cannot be ignored.
Even if we became supreme beings and gods out of it - it doesn't change the fact that God himself did wickedly. If God's goal is to make us like himself, and he does this by subjecting us to his own acts of sin disguised as trials for our betterment "ends justify the means" then we are more like him now than we are when sanctified and pure. Satan is closer to being God than Mother Theresa ever was, and Jesus is the rebellious one who should have been cast out of Heaven for going against God's nature, and divine intent in making us like himself.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I and the Father are one.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
I and the father are one.
For you have the mind of Christ
a] If you kill someone it's called murder. If you murder you go to jail.
b] But if you do so during war it's killing. If you kill enough you get a medal.
c] If the executioner pulls the switch of the electric share he get's payed for it.
The state has a monopoly on legal killing.
Maybe we are facing the same thing in this thread.
Livingwater: Yes, all of those things are true; provided that God is not the doer of evil (sinful, wicked, depraved) deeds directly, or by proxy.
Whitewings: As I stated before, the difference between evil (the King's English dual usage) and evil (sinning) is like this;
Will a father with his right hand swat a child's behind to correct him - and with that same right hand strangle him in order to achieve the same end of obedience?
What good purpose does a father have to send a violator to destroy the innocence of his daughter? What good purpose does a father have to send a murderer to his little children? What good purpose does a father have to subject a man to starvation, and poverty? And then after doing all of this - what right does he have to punish his tools for doing their job?
Such a god as that, is not a god at all but a monster. I think we do have an issue of more than motive, or ends justifying the means, but the very nature of God himself. Does God sin? Why are his acts against the innocent, different from ours? Is God a hypocrite?
I say that God does not sin at all, he is nothing but good, and will forever be so, and has never once did anything, or created any evil. There is something wrong with the translations, something must be up - otherwise if God does sin, and has created evil, then there is something worse than a mistranslation, but a miscreation altogether.
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
Livingwater: Yes, all of those things are true; provided that God is not the doer of evil (sinful, wicked, depraved) deeds directly, or by proxy.
Go with your heart Lefein.
If Jesus was one with the Father, and the Father is this evil torturer, murderer, liar and calls evil good (all for a purpose to humble people); then Jesus would not have imo preached Matthew 5-7; would not have turned the other cheek;
and since we have the mind of Christ; we too will demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.
If we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"
Let LOVE be your guide, after all YOU are LOVE.
QuoteIf we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"
At last, someone who understands my plight? I hope so.
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 10:56:22 PM
QuoteIf we are one with the Father too, and he is an evil God, but for a purpose; then we too have the right to muder, rape, etc in order to humble those "sinners"
At last, someone who understands my plight? I hope so.
I understand LOVE :)
Amen. God cannot sin, but yet people say he not only is within the person that did the sin but then also ordained it to happen and then God turns around and says that the sinner must repent.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
"God is good"
"When?"
"All the time"
God is good all the time.
Why callest me good? only God is good.
There is no darkness within him
Ye are of the father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do.
Father= loving owner, life bringer of son, but also
Father = source
lusts come from the devil? Because he invented it?
lust = natural affection, but twisted with lies to become distorted affection/love often producing horrofying results
According to my understanding; Evil is the distortion, perversion, or absence of good things, and things made for good intent.
Rape is the selfish use of sex, murder is the selfish use of survival, theft is the selfish use of giving, greed is the selfish use of blessing, amongst many other examples.
Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 04:58:17 PM
Thinktank..."He does this by using the thing that the devil invented, called evil and uses that invention which is simply rebellion, even as a tool to bring people to Christ, he makes good out of evil."
The devil invented???
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
"why callest thou me good, only He is good, even God"
"How can light dwell with darkness"
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Hmm two scriptures with opposing views so which scripture is true, lets reason together.
One says that God is the creator of evil but another says that when one sins they connect to the devil, because he invented it.
How is God the creator of evil?
Did he not create all beings good?
But some rebelled, he charged his angels with folly.
Job 4:18
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
So if God is the maker of all things and the creator of the evil beings is that true?
Did God create the devil? No, but he did create him though. Did God test Us to do Good or evil? But we choose to do evil. So did God test his angels to see whether they did good or evil? I think the test was maybe that God would create a new being, mankind after his own likeness, a being that has his very nature, a being that could in effect be as boss over the angels, because we are as gods. This might have annoyed/frightened some to rebel and so they failed the test of loyalty. Is God to blame for his own creation rebeling against him? Should he not as a perfect God give his creation the right do do as they please and let them be free, rather than slaves to him. For God did not want slaves, he wants friends. Jesus said to his disciples
I no longer call you servants but friends for a servant does not know what his master thinks.
We have access to the heart of God, I think this is the key difference between mankind and angelic beings, we have a intimate relationship with God, while angels are servants. God says to Gabriel, Go here and Go there and he goes without question, but we can ask "why God?" And God says "because the man needs your help, go my son". Our experience here on this plane, proves our loyalty to God that we are fit enough be be called Gods sons, for it is not wise to put an untested being of god like powers in authority.
I think that's the gist of it, but theres allways more to learn.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [5] 12 When ye come to appear [6] before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, [7] even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve [8] the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
God doesn't like evil, why would he create it? in him there is no darkness at all.
A good tree does not produce evil fruit and neither does an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
TT :thumbsup:
Lefein, You know God because you know Jesus. In these last days, God has chosen to speak to us through his Son. Trust what you know.
I agree with TT, that it is a rebellion. The buck stops with God, so He is taking responsibility for it and he is dealing with it.
He sent his Son because he is dealing with it.
We don't know the whole story yet, but this we know--if we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father. Trust Jesus.
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
Evil is the distortion, perversion, or absence of good things, and things made for good intent.
Rape is the selfish use of sex, murder is the selfish use of survival, theft is the selfish use of giving, greed is the selfish use of blessing, amongst many other examples.
Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.
not saying your wrong though, because it's not written in stone as to the motivations. One might murder out of love for their familly. Many suicide bombers sacrifice themselves to save their famillly from gang threats.
The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning. Where does it say he created evil or sin? I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.
Quote
not saying your wrong though
Even I see through a dark glass, trying to express the simple truth that in evil, exists all evil intent, and all evil acts, whether adultery, theft, rape, murder, or greed contain all evil.
In essence, we are both right. You merely pointed out one slice of the orange, and I pointed out the other. :thumbsup:
__ __ __
But I am content now, because I have peace and biblical backing, and an inward answer that I can hold on to.
God did not create evil, not in any way that we are attributing that creation; this "Let there be evil, and so evil came" type of idea. God is the Tree of Life, and a tree who produces good fruit alone. In him there is no evil, and his produce knows nothing of evil, neither are they evil - he creates no sin. :HeartThrob:
P.S. I have a hard time with this too guys, but there's a bunch of scripture that says God creates and sends evil, which IMO, has
to be reconciled before we can take a legitimate hard stance.
Some interpretations of definitions, rightly dividing of evil vs. wickedness perhaps, calamity vs. sin, etc., but still I'd suggest we not say the scriptures don't say what they say, or add things that (I think) aren't there (satan created evil).
Thoughts?
I've entertained the idea that maybe God created beings who were able to then create/originate things (sin, wickedness). But then, even if that were the case (albeit, the scriptures state that ALL things exist in and from God, don't they? maybe I'm misinterpreting) - then we still have God creating those beings, knowing full well what they were capable of AND what they'd do. Isn't that correct? And if so, then what does that mean, what are the ramifications?
Did God lose control and now He's got to fix it? Did it take Him by surprise? (Hint : the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world).
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2010, 11:28:14 PM
The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning. Where does it say he created evil or sin? I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.
Jesus calls him the father of lies.
Its also impossible for something that is good to produce or create something that is evil, jesus gives us the parable of how a good tree produces only good fruit. God is perfection and cannot fail, but his creation did falter.
Did God know they would falter?
I don't think he did, but in his great wisdom he uses the fall as a tool for good and knows that he will win back his creation.
The lamb slain from the foundation , could be a clue that he knew the fall was going to happen, but the question is when did the fall take place, some people believe the angelic rebellion took place in Genesis 1.2 before the foundations of earth were put back together again.
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2010, 11:28:14 PM
The scriptures say satan sinned from the beginning. Where does it say he created evil or sin? I may be wrong, but I don't think it does.
From the beginning of what, though? From the beginning of his creation? Or from the beginning of the age? Satan was created a subtle being. This characteristic gives him the opportunity to forge a rebellion. Is it therefore God's fault if he does so?
"subtle"H6175
ערוּם
‛ârûmaw-room'
Passive participle of H6191;
cunning (usually in a bad sense): -
crafty, prudent, subtil.
Just because we don't see Satan before he appears in the garden, does not mean he didn't exist before then. Some say the passage on Lucifer is about Satan, making him one of the most beautiful of all God's creations--before he rebelled.
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:--Isa 14
Jabcat; God's intent is to bring "good" to "glorious", it is not out of God's control that creation became tainted, George MacDonald once had the thought that God is shaking Heaven and Earth so that what is incorruptible, and unshakable will remain.
According to my understanding, God allowed evil to be formed like a mold on his creation that was good, so that the possibility of evil later would be completely removed in his creation that is to be glorious, and immune. He himself however, did not produce the "mold" on his creation. Being separated from him; Life, it entered into Death, and so it began to rot, and the mold began to form.
Molly, " Some say the passage on Lucifer....." thats just about all one can say about that doctrine of man, 'SOME SAY."
How could God ever reveal Himself to man in His mercy, long-suffering, and compassion if it had not been that evil had put us into a position to call for the exercise of these attributes in our behalf? And especially how could God manifest to us His love in all its intensity and greatness except by such an opportunity as evil furnishes? As it is written, "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because God sent His only Son into the world that we might live through Him," (I Jn. 4:9) and there could have been no such manifestation of the Father's love if there had been no such thing as evil. We might believe that a friend loved us even though his love had never been especially tested, but we never could appreciate his love unless circumstances transpired to give him an opportunity to exhibit it in all its strength and fulness. So, too, we never could understand fully the love of God (and hence never could know Him fully, I Cor. 13:12, for God is love) had it not been for our lost and wretched condition furnishing the Father with an adequate opportunity for its manifestation. It was "when we were yet without strength" that Christ died for us. "God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:6). It was because we were in such an evil case, without strength and sinners, that the love that sent the deliverer is so marked and readily appreciated. Hence "hereby perceive we the love of God because Christ laid down His life for us." How should we have been able thus to perceive that love in its so great plenitude if we had never come under the power of evil so as to need this extreme manifestation of it?
Furthermore, as evil gives God an occasion to reveal himself to us so that we may know Him, so it gives us the opportunity to exercise the attributes of God so that we may become like Him. The existence of evil in the world gives the child of God the opportunity for the exercise of the godlike attributes of mercy, compassion, forgiveness, forbearance, meekness, and gentleness and thus he becomes like God; for, if ye do these things, ye shall be the children of the highest; for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, and is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Matt. 5:45; Lk. 6:35). Thus we see something of the purpose of evil in the blessings of mankind.
In addition to all this we have other direct testimony from scripture that evil is one of God's ministers for good. It is clearly intimated again and again that God uses evil for the accomplishment of His plans, which, of course, are always good. See, for instance, Judges 9:23. Read the context and you will see that Abimelech by a most atrocious crime had obtained the rulership of Israel, and to punish him, "God sent an evil spirit between him and the men of Schechem," and the result was the punishment of all the guilty parties. See the same idea in I Sam. 16:14. "The Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." This evil spirit did not come from the devil nor from hell, but from the Lord to do his bidding. See also I Kings 22:23 where the Lord is represented as using a "lying spirit" in order to deceive wicked Ahab for his own destruction.
The case of Job is one of the most striking and perfect illustration so this wonderful truth. The Lord speaks of him as "My servant Job, there is none like in in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil." (Job. 1:9). Thus it appears that Job was a remarkably good man, and this is confirmed by Ezek. 14:14, 20. Now then, what does God do but deliberately hand over this perfect and upright man into the hands of Satan to do his worse upon him, only that he should not touch his life. How could we have a more perfect illustration of how God uses evil as an instrument for good? Although Job suffered intensely, we know that in the end he was greatly blessed by his hard and bitter experience. If God thus uses Satan, the embodiment of evil, as a minister for good in the case of one individual, is it hard to believe that all evil is overruled of God for good in all cases?
The New Testament teaches the same truth. Did you ever notice how strangely the evangelists Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's temptation? The Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil, and he was there with the wild beasts. (Matt. 4:1; Mk. 1:12-13). What a strange statement! The Holy Spirit of God drives the sinless Jesus into the wilderness among the wild beasts to be tempted of Satan, the arch enemy of all good, a murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies! Truly God creates evil and uses it, too, for His own purposes and glory! The apostle Paul fully understood this great truth and practiced it himself. Hence he writes to the Corinthians "to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," (I Cor. 5:5) and he declares in his letter to Timothy that he himself had delivered certain ones unto Satan "that they might learn not to blaspheme." (I Tim. 1:20). It would seem also that the apostle knew something of this kind of discipline himself, for he says, "Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." (II Cor. 12:7). All this clearly proves that God overrules evil for good, that even Satan's work shall result in blessings for God's children. (Part of, "the Purpose of Evil" by A.P. Adams)
Let us not forget Micah, that you, and I, and others from the Pope to the recent convert after reading Origen - are a part of those who are the "some" who "say" anything about anything.
I've become a bit surprised as of late how quickly men, after having left corporate traditions of the church will quickly build up their own private firms of it pretending to be the right company.
I think the problem is that once the devil sinned this new knowledge of evil rippled throughout the cosmos, causing temptation for all beings who have access to this new heavenly knowledge. With this new knowledge many beings fell and got tainted by it and so we must now work out our salvation and overcome evil by following the example of the good sheperd who did overcome this new threat, to love one another and love conquers this new forbidden knowledge.
This reasonates with me but I hope it doesnt cause to much of a stir, there are probably crazier theories on this forum. I often saw this place as a school, but I also see it as a battlefield, because many horrors take place here, that I find is just too 'way out there' for God to have designed this school to be exactly like this.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 07, 2010, 11:47:14 PM
Molly, " Some say the passage on Lucifer....." thats just about all one can say about that doctrine of man, 'SOME SAY."
LOL Ok, I will say, 'I and others say.' I was just trying to avoid an argument because I know what the arguments are. So much for that idea.
He is Heylel, the Shining One, and he desires not only to exalt his throne above the other Elohiym [the stars of God], but also to sit on the north side of the 'congregation' [the assembly of the Divine Council] and be his own Priest [as opposed to a Priest of the order of Melchizedek].
Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?
because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 12:05:19 AM
Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?
because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.
He tried to take a position that was not his.
It's ours. And, it's being given back to us.
Satan is a being who expresses the epitome of selfishness, self-centeredness, and self-confidence, and especially self-worship, I believe.
"bow to me", "I will" - amongst other things.
When you turn your focus inward into the self itself (the self not in God, but the self in your own self adoration), you stop seeing God, you become separated from him, and you begin to die - and the sting of death is sin.
Satan by looking at himself, becoming selfish - died and so began to sin. He brought forth selfishness, I am certain.
So is it fair to say some believe Satan is able to create things?
Also, that God didn't know what was going to happen?
Further, that if God created evil (if you don't believe that, what do you do with the scriptures that say He did?), then that makes Him, Himself evil?
OTOH, what IF God could create evil, use it for a good purpose, and that not mean evil was actually in Him, or that He Himself was evil? Is it possible our finite minds could not comprehend such a thing, but it still be true? Can anyone really say they fully understand, can grasp, and contain all the complexity and immenseness of God? Or if He doesn't fit what we personally like, understand, or accept, does that really make Him unlovable or not worthy of our acceptance and praise? What if He's not exactly what we want or would choose for Him to be, so we ascribe our own thoughts and desires upon Him, then call Him names, "diminish" Him, and fight against Him? Do we then find another god that is more palatable?
I'm not one to take an extreme hardline position on this, other than to search and say what the scriptures say. Again, maybe there's some things that are interpretational that are in question. But we can't do away with the scriptures that state 'ra' comes from God. (Tony's posts on 'ra', calamity, evil, etc.).
Much to think on. Maybe this is one of those topics where no one's necessarily convinced by someone else's thoughts, but something in which we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling"...
When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.
He has one goal, to corrupt God's Man, Adam, and take his position and authority.
The lamb slain from the foundation of the world--
"the foundation"
G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.
G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.
"of the world"
G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
So we see the beginning of the story for us--Adam is created--and then through the Nachash, the kosmos--orderly creation of God-- is cast down, and Adam is thrown out of the garden where he walked with God in the cool of the day [spirit and light].
That's the beginning of the story for us, and Satan--yes--the Nachash--yes--the Shining One--is a liar from the beginning, as we see so clearly in his discourse with Eve.
:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes? Jesus PROPHESIED that not one stone would be left upon another, ie. the DESTRUCTION of the temple.
Prophesying is not like fortune telling! It's DECREE-ing the King's decisions. A lot of people were slaughtered; men, women, and children, and thousands ran for their lives to the "hills", for fear of death.
So......Jesus prophesying/speaking in the authority of God's Spirit, wasn't the cause of the destruction, it was those "bad Romans" that did it all to the "bad Jews" who didn't choose Jesus, right? :dontknow: How "unloving" that was of Jesus to speak what He heard His Father speak. :winkgrin:
God's love is not just a fuzzy feel good emotion like man's much lesser version. It's a SPIRIT, and we can no more understand that aspect of Him apart from that Spirit with the reasoning of our own carnal minds, than we can understand any other part of Him without it. My :2c: Blessings....
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm
Quote from: Lefein
Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.
Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?
In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?
Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?
(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?
CHB
Of course it was the bad romans that did it. Their hearts were evil and their works testified of that. Just as the works of Jesus testified that he was good.
I disagree that prophesy is not fortune telling. I believe that prophesy is a future prediction, but words of faith are decreeing the kings command. I.e im sick but by faith I decree that I am healthy or will be healthy.
There are a few examples where prophesy did not come to pass in the old testament, such as when God said that Nineveh be destroyed, but the people responded and they repented.
For Gods holy spirit fire is forever working and trying mens hearts that they may repent and for God to turn away from judgment
I agree though that God does actions that are deemed as evil, as the old testament shows, extreme punishment from a loving God. if he were not a loving God the punishment would not be looked upon with such horror, but regard it as normal thing for an evil God to do.
The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character. The old testament is more about laws than love, probably because mankind back then, didn't care much for love, but were more interested in pride and rule following.
:2c:
:cloud9: Did you word that right, TT? You DIS-agree that prophesying is NOT fortune telling??? :mshock:
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:25:45 AM
The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:
wow.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 01:28:11 AM
:cloud9: Did you word that right, TT? You DIS-agree that prophesying is NOT fortune telling??? :mshock:
doesn't come from the same source obviously :laughing7: but where do fortune tellers get their power from I don't know. Most people assume the devil, but I think there are people who have natural talents.
QuoteSo is it fair to say some believe Satan is able to create things?
It is of my opinion that he cannot create, only distort, or remove. God builds a house, Satan warps the wood, and punches holes in the walls saying "I made a hole!" not really, he just removed a chunk of house.
QuoteAlso, that God didn't know what was going to happen?
God knew it, and so he allowed it for the sake of ensuring it wouldn't happen again in the new creation, since evil has been overcome fully, and destroyed.
QuoteFurther, that if God created evil (if you don't believe that, what do you do with the scriptures that say He did?), then that makes Him, Himself evil?
Yes, it makes him evil if he created it. The scriptures must have a different meaning than creating "sin" of which is the most common idea behind evil. If God invented a method of sinning (and I must emphasise the barbarity of sin, because so many of us forget the actual implication of the word, when we are in theological discussion) then it came out of his imagination, his heart. If it is in his heart, if sin is a fruit he has produced - he is a bad tree.
QuoteOTOH, what IF God could create evil, use it for a good purpose, and that not mean evil was actually in Him, or that He Himself was evil?
An impossibility, if I can be so bold.
QuoteIs it possible our finite minds could not comprehend such a thing, but it still be true?
God is higher than we are, and loftier...but we have the mind of Christ - and for all the mysterious ways in which God works, he is not so grandiose and wise that he is above common sense, the most beautiful, practical form (IMO) of wisdom.
QuoteCan anyone really say they fully understand, can grasp, and contain all the complexity and immenseness of God?
Is God so untouchable that he is unable to be fellowshipped with by our childlike conscience? God exceeds in abundance, and infinite benevolence in his goodness, holiness, righteousness, these are mutually exclusive to producing evil, sin, in any form.
If we take a stance that says; "God is righteous in his sin" or "God cannot lie, and invented lying" our gospel becomes a divided house, so does our god, and we lose.
QuoteOr if He doesn't fit what we personally like, understand, or accept, does that really make Him unlovable or not worthy of our acceptance and praise?
Eternal Damnation? What shall we say to the Calvinist? We are so disturbed by Hell, and we say that such a god who would eternally burn his people and torture them without hope is without worth or praise, and is not god, and that the bible was mistranslated - hence here we are at Tentmaker...Yet why should we with the same mouth relocate Hell from the afterlife, only to bring it here on Earth, and call it God's doing? No matter how temporary.
QuoteWhat if He's not exactly what we want or would choose for Him to be, so we ascribe our own thoughts and desires upon Him, then call Him names, "diminish" Him, and fight against Him? Do we then find another god that is more palatable?
If God is not as good as we being finite can imagine with our finite minds - then it would seem to me that God is diminished by his merely being out-classed by our vision of a better God, who is truly better; our imagined god not having a single evil thought, bone, or purpose in his divine omnipresent body, or fruit produced out of it even hinting at sinfulness...in the face of this proposed real god, who produced every last bit of what is wrong with the world.
If however we are diminishing God by calling him names, and he really did create evil, we are merely calling him what he is, and if he really does have infinite grace like UR professes - then we are safe in the hands of the wicked Lord...or is his grace limited, and he will torture us, or destroy us for his own evil? Under that idea; UR is indeed a false gospel.
QuoteI'm not one to take an extreme hardline position on this, other than to search and say what the scriptures say. Again, maybe there's some things that are interpretational that are in question. But we can't do away with the scriptures that state 'ra' comes from God. (Tony's posts on 'ra', calamity, evil, etc.).
I read somewhere that "create" can also be translated "cut down". But I understand your position.
QuoteMuch to think on. Maybe this is one of those topics where no one's necessarily convinced by someone else's thoughts, but something in which we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling"...
Indeed.
__ __ __
Remember this though assembly; Blind faith can't see God.
Now let us apply this to the subject we are considering. Evil exists, things that seems utterly antagonistic to God and His way, but which we are sure from the foregoing considerations to be in some sense of God, in harmony with His will, and conducive to the furtherance of His plans. Now then, is there any principle of action, just and righteous in itself, that will account for the existence of evil and indicate its ultimate result? There certainly is such a principle, thus: It is a recognized principle in law, equity and morals that it is right and just to inflict or permit temporary evil for the sake of an ultimate and permanent good. This principle, all will see is certainly correct. It is upon this principle that all punishment of any kind is justifiable, and it is only on this principle that it can be justified. Punishment is an evil, but it is an evil that may ultimate in good, and when it is inflicted for such a purpose, it is right and just. Now we know from numerous examples, many of which I have given in this article, that God acts upon this principle. He uses evil as an instrument for good. Admit that this principle is correct and that God acts upon it, and all is at once accounted for an dits final result indicated. This sweeping conclusion may not at once be clear to all, but a little thought will show that it is fully justified. If it is right to use evil as an instrument for good, and if God acts upon this principle, the principle fully explaining and justifying the act, then is it not reasonable to conclude that all evil is so justified? We cannot enter sufficiently deep into God's plans to be able to explain the how and the why of each individual case, but, once admitting the principle, and seeing numerous examples of its application that we can understand, the conclusion is fully warranted that this principle applies to all cases.
Of course, no one could accept this conclusion who believed in endless torment. The above principle will not explain or justify unmitigated and eternal evil. I have already shown that such evil really dethrones God, or at least shares His throne with Him, which is equivalent to dethroning Him. To say that evil is absolute and eternal is to fully invest it with attributes peculiar to Deity and thus to make it "equal with God" (Jn. 5:18; Phil. 2:6) at least in some respects; but this cannot be. At that rate there would be two gods, a good and a bad one, and each of them would eternally exist and be eternal foes. To such a frightful conclusion does the doctrine of the eternity of evil lead us. Let those believe it who can. But, if we take the Bible teaching on this subject, the principle enunciated fully accounts for and explains the existence and purpose of evil. It may seem to some that this principle cannot apply to all evil. They are able to see how some evil may be overruled for good, but that all the terrible forms of evil can be so overruled seems to them impossible. but such a question is simply on of degree. If God can make some evil conducive to good, can He not so make all evil of whatever from or quantity? If it is true that God uses evil for good at all, how can we tell, not knowing perfectly God's plans and methods, just what kind of evil and just how much evil God will so use? We must conclude that all the evil we see about us in every horrifying form and in all its vast amount comes under the same category of part and parcel of the great plan that through sin, corruption, chaos and death is moving on to holiness, purity, order and life eternal.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 01:31:13 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:25:45 AM
The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:
wow.
well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.
But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 01:33:36 AM
Blind faith can't see God.
That makes no sense to me.
What is faith in God?
It is truly blind, believing in things unseen.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 12:28:05 AM
When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.
He has one goal, to corrupt God's Man, Adam, and take his position and authority.
The lamb slain from the foundation of the world--
"the foundation"
G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.
G2598
καταβάλλω
kataballō
kat-ab-al'-lo
From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.
"of the world"
G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
So we see the beginning of the story for us--Adam is created--and then through the Nachash, the kosmos--orderly creation of God-- is cast down, and Adam is thrown out of the garden where he walked with God in the cool of the day [spirit and light].
That's the beginning of the story for us, and Satan--yes--the Nachash--yes--the Shining One--is a liar from the beginning, as we see so clearly in his discourse with Eve.
That is the most undermining story of my God that I have heard, except when I read Dake and his theory. The [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, there was no showing up, the serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam. So there was no showing up. Only in the theories of Dake and others do you find this rebelling you speak of. If you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him, then you have a sorry god, and you better watch out if he rebelled the first time, the next time(Im sure he learned something) maybe he will take down your god as well.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 01:31:13 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:25:45 AM
The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:
wow.
well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.
But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:
Have you read the Song of Songs?
Actually Lefein, though I don't believe in ET, and though I've done more than enough other things wrong, I've never been so bold as to say a God who would have invented ET is evil, or twisted, or bad, etc. I don't think that's my job. :dontknow: I ask questions, state what I think I understand.
I do want to know God as He Is, and I believe He is a God of Ultimate Restoration. But I hope I never presume to tell God Who He is or needs to be. I may find myself railing against something I simply do not as yet understand.
I will agree with anyone that says God is only good, there is no evil in Him.
I sincerely doubt we can fully understand all that means or entails. For instance, was God being good, or bad, when He caused the flood to come and kill (at least) thousands of people?
I believe good, though again, my natural mind can't fully wrap itself around it. But I hold in faith that it was good, because God and His ways are perfect. I can only more fully accept this by humbling of myself before an Almighty God and with the renewing of my mind by the Spirit. This one example exemplifies many other scriptural events of like nature.
I agree, again, that God is good, perfect, and I believe anything we experience here is not worthy of the glory that will be revealed in us.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 01:44:02 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 01:31:13 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 01:25:45 AM
The old testment though is not really a great book to showcase Gods character.
:2c:
wow.
well apart from a few books such as the psalm which talk mostly about Gods grace and in some ways greater in peace than the gospels.
But my main thought was that generally the old testment is seen as the law giver or the old covenant message, which is mostly about laws.
:2c:
Have you read the Song of Songs?
Yes I think so, thats the one where solmon woes his lady. Have not read it for a long time though.
There are other books I enjoy such as Genesis, Daniel and Isiah.
Quote from: MicahThe [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, there was no showing up, the serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam. So there was no showing up. Only in the theories of Dake and others do you find this rebelling you speak of. If you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him, then you have a sorry god, and you better watch out if he rebelled the first time, the next time(Im sure he learned something) maybe he will take down your god as well.
I have no idea who Dake is. Does he read Hebrew? Then I might listen to what he has to say.
Quotethe serpent was there already and na,ed by Adam.
I don't know what this means. Is that a typo? The serpent was not already there; he is not seen at any time in Chapter 2 of Genesis.
QuoteIf you want to believe that Jehovah God created a "thing" that had the power to topple the one who created him
I never said Satan toppled the one who created him, did I? But, he did topple Adam, God's creation. And, he continued to do so until Jesus.
P.S. The same God that for 35 years, I thought invented and enforced ET, is the same God Who visited me with His Spirit at age 12 and saved me.
I sincerely doubt we can fully understand all that means or entails. For instance, was God being good, or bad, when He caused the flood to come and kill (at least) thousands of people?
jabcat
He was doing evil, but that's why he calls it a strange thing. He also promises never to do such a thing again, by creating the rainbow as a token of remembrance.
Where he did learn this evil? Did he aquire ths knowlege from the devil and then use this as a tool for his His purposes. A bit like how a rightous man might steal and do evil in order to do good by feeding his familly. (assuming he took all other paths of course, otherwise he'd just be lazy) The book of proverbs say that if a man steals for bread do not hurt him.
Adam named the serpent.
Gen 2:19 And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that is its name.
Gen 3:1 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made
So yes, Adam named the serpent and the serpent was there.
And you say satan/serpent/lucifer whatever REBELLED. "When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.
When was that rebelling?
I believe the beast here is talking about an animal. Because it refers to cattle in the same sentence. That a fallen angel or fallen cherubim entered a deal with the subtle snake. Perhaps the fallen angel is lucifer and the snake is the cherubim, because violence is filled in the midst of the cherubim, could be possesed by lucifer. But I am not sure about the realtionship between the cherubim and lucifer, whether they be the same being or different.
My observation; certain persons seem to have the idea that a god who did not create wickedness, is a weak god.
hmmn...
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 08, 2010, 02:03:51 AM
Adam named the serpent.
Gen 2:19 And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that is its name.
Gen 3:1 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made
So yes, Adam named the serpent and the serpent was there.
And you say satan/serpent/lucifer whatever REBELLED. "When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.
When was that rebelling?
We know what a snake is, don't we? And, a snake is a beast of the field, I'll grant you that.
But, how many snakes talk? How many snakes are subtle and cunning and able to outwit man [or woman]? How many snakes are able to tempt man? How many snakes have a 'seed' that is fighting against the seed of Christ?
So we have to admit that this Being that we see in Gen 3 is not an actual snake, don't you think? but more 'snake-like' according to its hiss, and its ability to enthrall and entrance, in the way it slithers and sneaks up on you before it strikes a death blow.
"serpent"H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâshnaw-khawsh'
From H5172;
a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.
H5172נחשׁ
nâchashnaw-khash'
A primitive root;
properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly,
divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
I don't know specifically when he rebelled, but I know he did. We see Michael and his angels fighting Satan and his angels in heaven. Jesus tells us he saw Satan fall like lightning.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 02:21:35 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 08, 2010, 02:03:51 AM
Adam named the serpent.
Gen 2:19 And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that is its name.
Gen 3:1 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made
So yes, Adam named the serpent and the serpent was there.
And you say satan/serpent/lucifer whatever REBELLED. "When Satan [the Nachash] shows up in the garden, he has already rebelled.
When was that rebelling?
We know what a snake is, don't we? And, a snake is a beast of the field, I'll grant you that.
But, how many snakes talk? How many snakes are subtle and cunning and able to outwit man [or woman]? How many snakes are able to tempt man? How many snakes have a 'seed' that is fighting against the seed of Christ?
So we have to admit that this Being that we see in Gen 3 is not an actual snake, don't you think? but more 'snake-like' according to its hiss, and its ability to enthrall and entrance, in the way it slithers and sneaks up on you before it strikes a death blow.
"serpent"
H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh
naw-khawsh'
From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
I don't know specifically when he rebelled, but I know he did. We see Michael and his angels fighting Satan and his angels in heaven. Jesus tells us he saw Satan fall like lightning.
gen 3:1 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made
Intersting maybe 'above' means flying above these beasts subtily.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 02:21:35 AM
learn by experience
That is why he used the word:
IFPerhaps satan is just the reasoning/logical mind of man residing all along in his soul, birthing serpents, giants and dragons.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 02:27:03 AM
gen 3:1 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made
Intersting maybe 'above' means flying above these beasts subtily.
Interesting.
"above"H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnı̂y minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: -
above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
H4482
מן
mênmane
From an unused rot meaning to apportion;
a part; hence a musical chord (as parted into strings): - in [the same] (Psa. H68 : H23), stringed instrument (Psa. H150 : H4), whereby (Psa. H45 : H8 [defective plural]).
The Nachash is playing the wrong notes lol. Evil sounds a little off key, doesn't it?
It was a serpent, not a snake. Enchanter, whisperer. If you know he rebelled ...when? I find no rebelling in Genesis one or two. So you are going to say the rebelling is in Revelation and thats when this lucifer(howling)satan rebelled and fell? Yes Jesus beheld the adversary fall, Jesus had just sent his disciples out and they worked wonders, and Jesus beheld the adversarys power fall as fire from the heavenlies to the disciples power He had given them.
On what day was Gabriel created?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 02:32:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 02:21:35 AM
learn by experience
That is why he used the word: IF
Perhaps satan is just the reasoning/logical mind of man residing all along in his soul, birthing serpents, giants and dragons.
I hear what you're saying, but I personally reject that. I think that man is able to have his strings played [or pulled] by the evil spirit that is the Nachash. But, I don't see man and the Nachash as one and the same, although I respect that many do. I see the Nachash as a spirit.
And, I see those of us with the Holy Spirit as in a spiritual war with him.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 08, 2010, 02:35:24 AM
It was a serpent, not a snake. Enchanter, whisperer. If you know he rebelled ...when? I find no rebelling in Genesis one or two. So you are going to say the rebelling is in Revelation and thats when this lucifer(howling)satan rebelled and fell? Yes Jesus beheld the adversary fall, Jesus had just sent his disciples out and they worked wonders, and Jesus beheld the adversarys power fall as fire from the heavenlies to the disciples power He had given them.
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
--Eze 28
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life. --Gen 3
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 02:37:54 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 08, 2010, 02:32:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 02:21:35 AM
learn by experience
That is why he used the word: IF
Perhaps satan is just the reasoning/logical mind of man residing all along in his soul, birthing serpents, giants and dragons.
I hear what you're saying, but I personally reject that. I think that man is able to have his strings played [or pulled] by the evil spirit that is the Nachash. But, I don't see man and the Nachash as one and the same, although I respect that many do. I see the Nachash as a spirit.
And, I see those of us with the Holy Spirit as in a spiritual war with him.
:thumbsup:
Ezk. 28 reads more like it could more like Adam being discribed.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 02:36:39 AM
On what day was Gabriel created?
I can't see any verses talk about the creation of angels. But yet the first born of every creature, he that made the worlds, must be the first creature, so sometime later he must have created angels.
Genesis says that all their host praised after the creation of the earth, but does not say when they were created. Perhaps before genesis 1.1 and after creating the worlds, he then rebelled in Genesis 1.2 :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 02:36:39 AM
On what day was Gabriel created?
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed,
and all their host;
Quote from: thinktank
Where he did learn this evil? Did he aquire ths knowlege from the devil and then use this as a tool for his His purposes. A bit like how a rightous man might steal and do evil in order to do good by feeding his familly. (assuming he took all other paths of course, otherwise he'd just be lazy) The book of proverbs say that if a man steals for bread do not hurt him.
:laughing7: God learning from the devil? Boy, are we in trouble.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 02:52:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank
Where he did learn this evil? Did he aquire ths knowlege from the devil and then use this as a tool for his His purposes. A bit like how a rightous man might steal and do evil in order to do good by feeding his familly. (assuming he took all other paths of course, otherwise he'd just be lazy) The book of proverbs say that if a man steals for bread do not hurt him.
:laughing7: God learning from the devil? Boy, are we in trouble.
CHB
As in aquiring knowledge of evil from him, not as in learning his ways of doing things.
It depends on how one views God, is he static or is he ever growing and creating. I think the fact that the universe is constantly expanding is a small indicator that perhaps this is how God operates.
My question concerning Gabriel was to prove a point, that just because we don't know certain exacts or even specifics from the Bible doesn't mean it isn't a happening, or a thing that has occurred.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 03:03:02 AM
My question concerning Gabriel was to prove a point, that just because we don't know certain exacts or even specifics from the Bible doesn't mean it isn't a happening, or a thing that has occurred.
What happening are you refering to? It is my contention that should there have been a creating of the devil/satan/adversary as a being and a formidible foe then I really believe it would have been mentioned in the Book. And if some person named lucifer was the devil/satan/adversary then again should there not be some hint as to this originating happened; when, where, and how? We know, at least I believe I know that the enemy, the adversary in a spirit and the power that comes from this spirit is in total allowance with the Father of spirits.(Heb, 12:9)
We know that Gabriel is a messenger and the message he brought was heard and recieved. Gabriel [means man of God] had a purpose.
We see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil put into the garden in Gen 2.
There is no mention of such a tree in Genesis 1.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
--Gen 1
They are able to eat from every tree on the face of the earth.
That means these two special trees in Eden are not on 'the face of the earth.'
Yes, Molly, a very contagious spirit.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 02:17:38 AM
My observation; certain persons seem to have the idea that a god who did not create wickedness, is a weak god.
hmmn...
Actually here is what I said.
"Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
I was asking you these questions. If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what? Would you answer me this question please?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:08:32 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 02:17:38 AM
My observation; certain persons seem to have the idea that a god who did not create wickedness, is a weak god.
hmmn...
Actually here is what I said.
"Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
I was asking you these questions. If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what? Would you answer me this question please?
CHB
That will happen in the next age, CHB. In the meantime, I'm confident that if you see someone beating someone else to death, you will do your best to stop it in this age.
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2010, 07:58:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 07, 2010, 07:44:18 PM
We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read. Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.
Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.
I'm not talking about the hebrew word ra.
Quote from: CHB on November 07, 2010, 08:54:22 PM
I just finished reading this article. It talks about all the calamities that happen in the world and who is at fault. About blaming God.
"Judgment on Man and God" http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm
After reading this article I have come to the conclusion that one reason God has dealt with man by evil is to teach man forgiveness.
We will need to come to the point where we will FORGIVE GOD for all the things done in this world that we consider evil.
If we can forgive God for all the evils that have occurred to man since the beginning of time then we have truly become a son of God.
When you think about it, God has really poured it on us. We have had children killed, lost everything we had, most have experienced sickness, mental anguish. All of this and more have come from God. God forgives us, we learn to forgive God, a mutual forgiveness. We are becoming like God.
CHB
After reading the bible I have come to the conclusion that God has nothing to with the evil we know.
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
QuoteWhat happening are you refering to?
Satan going from innocent, to father of lies by some means or another.
Quote
Actually here is what I said.
I was making a general observation about the God = maker of evil party. Not you specifically.
Quote"Where did evil come from?
Selfishness, according to my understanding. But it is of my Biblical understanding of scripture, that Death is what caused sin. The sting of death - is sin. Death is separation from God.
QuoteWhy do we sin?
Distance from God.
QuoteWhy aren't we perfect?
Our spirit is perfect, our soul is being sanctified, our body is disposable. We are perfect in progress.
QuoteDid God make a mistake and can't fix things?
No, he knew what was coming. It is of my opinion that he made everything good, anticipating to make everything better after shaking out all possibilities of evil or "against his will"-ness that might arise.
QuoteIs he so blind and weak,
Not at all, he's far more clever than we think, and far more cunning than to have had to make evil in the first place. He can have his cake and eat it too, having never produced a sinful fruit in his infinite life - and still with great finesse ensuring that all evil that might be able to arise would be destroyed.
Quoteor does he just ignore the whole situation?
Jesus.
QuoteThis is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil?
Jesus, glorification, all consuming fire, long suffering, grace, (free-will...imo), and his ways are higher than ours. He can't sin, that is a fact, he therefore cannot produce sinful fruit, or sinful actions, or anything even close to sin - only Justice/righteousness. He has nothing to do with evil, darkness has no fellowship with light. God is Light.
QuoteHave you ask yourself these questions?
Often.
QuoteIf God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it?
God doesn't have to play Genie.
QuoteIf I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me?
What does that make God if he's the one beating someone to death directly, or by proxy?
QuoteIf I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what?
What if it is God doing it? Is he too evil, to callous, to wicked? Did God create impurity, and invent wickedness just to have to take it out?
God's justice is restoration multiplied for evil done. God however, is too good to do anything bad. Sinning is bad.
At any rate; the example of a man beating up another what would God do? Send you...his hands, his child, his son, his ambassador of justice to carry out his will in his name. His Good, Right, and Just will.
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 01:19:47 AM
Quote from: Lefein
Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.
Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?
In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?
Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?
(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?
CHB
The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to. These rationalizations really don't hold up. Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering? What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place? An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 01:04:57 AM
:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?
Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it. At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?
Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:08:32 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 02:17:38 AM
My observation; certain persons seem to have the idea that a god who did not create wickedness, is a weak god.
hmmn...
Actually here is what I said.
"Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
I was asking you these questions. If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what? Would you answer me this question please?
CHB
These valid questions can also be asked for any viewpoint of God. If GOd is giving us knowedge of evil, does that mean that this his play pen? I find that due to the depravity of evil that happens here, that reducing this place to a mere school is being a bit challenging concept. Does this mean that in order to advane in life one must go through trials for eternity? Where is the promise that God won't put us through torture chambers to see whether we still love him after our "trials".
I was asking you these questions. If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what? Would you answer me this question please?
CHB
Possibly the reason God does not stop this pain it is because of what Jesus said
Who done this?
An enemy has sown tares among the wheat, lets wait until the harvest before uprooting lest we accidently uproot the wheat along with the tares.
If he destroyed satan he would destroy us, because the devil is part of our world and thinking :dontknow:
The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html
"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Easy, ALL has a context of what is righteousness. Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:26:10 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 01:19:47 AM
Quote from: Lefein
Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.
Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?
In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?
Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?
(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?
CHB
The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to. These rationalizations really don't hold up. Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering? What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place? An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?
Don't you think we are learning from all the things that happen in the world? If you can say that you have not learned a single thing from all the evil that has happened in this life then I will agree with you that it is all for nothing. We have two forces that are operating, good and evil, we learn the consequences of both.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:34:19 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:26:10 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 01:19:47 AM
Quote from: Lefein
Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.
Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?
In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?
Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?
Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?
(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?
CHB
The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to. These rationalizations really don't hold up. Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering? What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place? An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?
Don't you think we are learning from all the things that happen in the world? If you can say that you have not learned a single thing from all the evil that has happened in this life then I will agree with you that it is all for nothing. We have two forces that are operating, good and evil, we learn the consequences of both.
CHB
We could be learning that God is an S.O.B. but I think you have missed the point of what I wrote.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:32:49 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Easy, ALL has a context of what is righteousness. Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.
Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:37:25 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:32:49 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Easy, ALL has a context of what is righteousness. Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.
Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?
CHB
can God tell a lie?
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:37:25 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:32:49 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Easy, ALL has a context of what is righteousness. Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.
Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?
CHB
Indeed I am.
Quote from: TTAn enemy has sown tares among the wheat, lets wait until the harvest before uprooting lest we accidently uproot the wheat along with the tares.
If he destroyed satan he would destroy us, because the devil is part of our world and thinking
Agree he has to wait until the end of the age to eradicate evil.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:29:45 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 01:04:57 AM
:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?
Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it. At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?
Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?
:cloud9: I suppose it's only bad if you consider it bad to do away with scripture, which I do. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 04:03:44 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:29:45 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 01:04:57 AM
:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?
Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it. At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?
Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?
:cloud9: I suppose it's only bad if you consider it bad to do away with scripture, which I do. My :2c:
I guess, since I have not done away with scripture I can't really say.
Not to sound perhaps...heretical, but I'd rather have God over the Bible any day. Without God, its nothing but another book.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 04:24:09 AM
Not to sound perhaps...heretical, but I'd rather have God over the Bible any day. Without God, its nothing but another book.
That's not the point Lefein. Someday I'll share some information with you about the Word, written, revealed, and made flesh. They don't separate, they go together. Also, plz check the link in my sig. Thanks.
I've not denied the scriptures, only that if I were on an island somewhere in the middle of the ocean, I'd rather have Spirit than Letter.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:12:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2010, 07:58:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 07, 2010, 07:44:18 PM
We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read. Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.
Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.
I'm not talking about the hebrew word ra.
That's the word in scriptures, translated 'evil'. I really try to not assume, but since you quoted that scripture, and the topic is the problem of evil... but maybe you're talking about something else, then.
iutzr aur u'bura chshk oshe shlum u'bura ro ani ieue oshe kl ale
one-forming light and'one'creating[cutting down, dispatching-kjv] darkness one-making/one doing well-being[shalom] and one-creating[cutting down, dispatching-kjv] evil I Yahweh one-making/one doing all-of these.
Iutzr - forming, moulding, squeezing into shape;
H3335 yatsar yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape);
((compare H3331)); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. form a resolution).
KJV: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.
___
u'Bura
H1254 bara' baw-raw'
a primitive root;
(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes).
KJV: choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
___ ___ ___
Lefeinian rendering;
Forming light, cutting down darkness, the one making "shalom" (doing good) and cutting down evil, I Yahweh am doing all of these.
Etymological contrasts; my commentary.
I Yahweh - make light, illuminate --- I Yahweh cut down darkness, illuminating it, cutting it with light: Light being made, vs. Dark being unmade.
I Yahweh - make shalom (peace, goodness, resting, happiness, etc), do good --- I Yahweh cut down evil, filling it with good, killing death by filling it with life, killing the old man to raise up the new: Shalom is done, Evil is undone.
I Yahweh do these things.
I believe in the other most recent "evil" thread, the idea of "cutting down" was also suggested. It's interesting and worth consideration and further examination, IMO.
How would you tie that in, specifically, with God bringing death to thousands in the flood? That He didn't really do it. That He did it but by doing so, He was cutting down evil? Or some other option?
Justice is not evil. Especially justice on the wicked.
CLV Gn 6:5 And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the evil of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but evil all its days.
AV Gn 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
In order to save their spirit, he had to cut them off of the playing field where they were able to engage in wickedness. Think "Divine straight jacket", to prevent their self harm from going into intolerable levels (intolerable in the sense of the unknown of what might happen if they had been allowed to continue further in their evils, maybe even destroying the earth itself if not checked).
Sin is self harm, above all else imo, this is my understanding of the flood anyway. If I recall, aren't the flood people the ones Christ preached to in the prisons? How better of an end for God himself to free them from their asylum.
All I know is God does not willingly grieve the spirits of men. If He did "create" evil it was for a purpose and He does not like to inflict us with it. Think of your own children - the only time you willingly let them go through pain is if it is absolutely necessary, like a life or death situation. I believe God feels the same way about us. :2c:
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 04:43:13 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:12:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2010, 07:58:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 07, 2010, 07:44:18 PM
We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read. Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.
Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.
I'm not talking about the hebrew word ra.
That's the word in scriptures, translated 'evil'. I really try to not assume, but since you quoted that scripture, and the topic is the problem of evil... but maybe you're talking about something else, then.
Yes I know, and I was showing the verse can show God cuts down evil. Evil exists, I have never made issue with that.
Ah, OK, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.
Again guys, I honestly am not taking an absolute stance on "I know everything this means, and God made sin". I am saying though, the scrips say much about God creating, sending, using evil. I have to accept that. But then what all does it mean? :thinking:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:09:31 AM
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.
QuoteLef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
I'd say this is were calamity comes in.
QuoteAgain guys, I honestly am not taking an absolute stance on "I know everything this means, and God made sin". I am saying though, the scrips say much about God creating, sending, using evil. I have to accept that. But then what all does it mean?
It might be settled if we understood the old Biblical Hebrew's way of speech, and phrases. We know you aren't taking an absolute stance, and as such we aren't hitting you with hammers for it. ^^
I cannot honestly say I know for certain, all I know is that scripture must interpret scripture; IE; consistency - and God being good, means that God cannot do evil by proxy, or directly. It is a common sense sort of statement on that end, if I am a doctor who swore to do no harm, I can't poison my patients - though it might hurt a little to reset a broken leg.
Speculatively speaking, it may be about the difference between pain, and harm; both are however the noun of Hurt, and hurt, but both are completely different in their truth of being, despite the facts surrounding them that produce a "mask of similarity".
If I might ponder the issue of creating evil, sending evil, and using evil...I don't know, nor do I have an exact idea; but here is a hypothesis...
A man makes a knife, and intends to kill his brother with it. This is evil, and the knife is an evil tool.
A doctor comes along, and finds the knife, and finds that its design is perfect for getting to bones that have healed improperly, and so uses the very same knife design to further Health.
The doctor finds that his patient has committed serious crimes against his town, so he being also the town mayor by strike of coincidence - sends a man with the knife wielded by police to execute justice.
Another example, and though some grow tired of this example, it is only because it is a so readily understandable example; God created intimacy but he didn't create adultery.
___ ___ ___
Likewise, Paul makes a good point. Much of the "sending" is merely the execution of inevitability. We reap what we sow, without God's help to clear our fields. But because God is just, he will allow, provide permission for, "send" justice our way, the knife...if you will.
If I drive on the wrong side of the road, why should God protect me from a crash for breaking traffic laws? Why should I expect it? Providing of course, that I'm making no attempt to get back on the right side of the road.
I agree God set up that law. But I personally don't believe He was ignorant of what would happen, or, incapable of redirecting things if He wanted to.
I believe then those consequences come from somewhere, as in "a creation of, by (S)someone". I don't believe anything came into being by accident, and I really don't know if satan is able to create anything. I don't think I've seen convincing scripture on that, indicating he can/does.
I think you MAY NOT agree from some things you've posted, but I think at the very least God knew what would happen, yet He still set up that law. If one doesn't believe God knew beforehand, I think that would provide [at least a perceived] "workaround". But I don't know anywhere that's supported scripturally, in fact I believe there's much indicating otherwise, but off the cuff can't quote it...
We've talked about this for years on TM, and it just ain't settled yet :laughing7:
P.S. You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right? :bigGrin:
Satan as far as I know, can only pervert, or make void. Not "create". He might seemingly invent, though it is only a bastardisation.
Like in a sci-fi film, taking a human and subjecting him to all sorts of irradiating terrors, twisting him, and misshaping him, the scientist may believe he has created a new creature, but he has not - he has merely created an abomination, a twisted misshapen form of what was, and still is human, and was meant to be human, but is now a mutated human.
QuoteP.S. You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right?
Absolute, because it is what we believe. And we don't have to be the unbiased moderator. ^_^
__ __ __
As for God knowing evil beforehand, that is something best described by a comparison chart which I will perhaps make later.
Oh, I have many opinions. But I've been wrong so much that I need to be careful - 'cause I'm probably not done yet getting things wrong.
When you stop learning, you're dead...or so I've heard. :icon_jokercolor:
That's true I think.
(If I was too vague, my real point was, no hammers are necessary :bigGrin:).
That's why I carry a rather hefty mace. :laughing7:
Bought my wife one of these;
http://www.safetygirl.com/mace-gun.html The pink one. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:31:27 AM
I agree God set up that law. But I personally don't believe He was ignorant of what would happen, or, incapable of redirecting things if He wanted to.
I believe then those consequences come from somewhere, as in "a creation of, by (S)someone". I don't believe anything came into being by accident, and I really don't know if satan is able to create anything. I don't think I've seen convincing scripture on that, indicating he can/does.
I think you MAY NOT agree from some things you've posted, but I think at the very least God knew what would happen, yet He still set up that law. If one doesn't believe God knew beforehand, I think that would provide [at least a perceived] "workaround". But I don't know anywhere that's supported scripturally, in fact I believe there's much indicating otherwise, but off the cuff can't quote it...
We've talked about this for years on TM, and it just ain't settled yet :laughing7:
I've always stated that God knows everything, even what is going to happen. The issue is the moral implication that God knew and designed it that way when he really didn't have to.
We can already see that God cannot do absolutely anything, He cannot lie, it is impossible for him to lie. That fact is an absolute glory. It is also an absolute glory that God is not the author of confusion. Confusion is not something God can be.
The excuse for God causing evil is that He's God, but those who argue for the moral character of God will not accept that excuse for Eternal Hell from a calvinist, but that is the argument they use.
I know he won't cause a rapist to rape for a good purpose, it is impossible for rape to be righteous, so God didn't think for us to do it, nor cause us to do it.
I certainly am not taking any stance towards someone who doesn't agree with me. As far as taking an absolute stance, God tells me not to be lukewarm, I argued for eternal hell as strongly as I do for things I believe differently now. When I believe something I take responsibilty for that belief and the chips can fall where they may.
QuoteI've always stated that God knows everything, even what is going to happen. The issue is the moral implication that God knew and designed it that way when he really didn't have to.
Indeed. God is the law giver, and the laws of righteousness, and purity (not just mosaic, but of beautitudeous nature) are derived from the heart of God, and so the heart of God if it has made iniquity also, would be divided, a divine hypocrite.
QuoteWe can already see that God cannot do absolutely anything, He cannot lie, it is impossible for him to lie. That fact is an absolute glory. It is also an absolute glory that God is not the author of confusion. Confusion is not something God can be.
Amen. Omnipotence is a term used to describe "Almighty" - being almighty doesn't mean you have "ludicrous power", or a license for "stupid use" of it.
QuoteThe excuse for God causing evil is that He's God, but those who argue for the moral character of God will not accept that excuse for Eternal Hell from a calvinist, but that is the argument they use.
Amen, amen.
QuoteI know he won't cause a rapist to rape for a good purpose, it is impossible for rape to be righteous, so God didn't think for us to do it, nor cause us to do it.
Amen, amen, and thrice amen. He does not send a child abuser, nor does he make a person abuse a child - but can use the child abuse against itself, and use darkness against itself to further the cause of light; see Joyce Meyer for example.
When torture becomes testimony, it is God who takes the torture someone gives to his child, and makes it a testimony. That is a pure, and beautiful show of God's omnipotence, an act of creating that is great.
I believe God foreknew of the evil man would commit. But, I also believe that the evil was not a direct creation of God. He allowed man to live in the carnal nature and with that came sin and evil. It was a birthing process, an unavoidable means to an end. But, in all of this I think we need to keep in mind this verse from Romans chapter 8...
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 05:35:28 AM
Satan as far as I know, can only pervert, or make void. Not "create". He might seemingly invent, though it is only a bastardisation.
Like in a sci-fi film, taking a human and subjecting him to all sorts of irradiating terrors, twisting him, and misshaping him, the scientist may believe he has created a new creature, but he has not - he has merely created an abomination, a twisted misshapen form of what was, and still is human, and was meant to be human, but is now a mutated human.
QuoteP.S. You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right?
Absolute, because it is what we believe. And we don't have to be the unbiased moderator. ^_^
__ __ __
As for God knowing evil beforehand, that is something best described by a comparison chart which I will perhaps make later.
I'm not sure about that. The Bible says satan is the father of lies. I believe that means satan invented lying. I believe all evil is a creation of satan.
All evil (sin) is indeed out of Satan, lies also.
But Satan cannot create ex'nihilo like God. Satan can however "create" an emptiness, or a space, he can punch a hole in a wall, he has made a hole, but the hole is "nothing" so it does not really "exist" as it is not a "thing", you can't really pick up a hole, if that makes sense.
So Satan can create lies, invent them, but his inventions are "nothing", and all of this is according to my understanding of course - but it is more or less like this;
"To create a lie, you must first distort, or remove the truth." The distortion of truth, or removal of it, is called a lie, or lying.
I cannot lie about someone, unless I say something about them that distorts the truth about them, or else removes entirely a truth; IE punch a hole in the truth about them by saying something that is "a lie" about them.
"Mrs. McKreedy is a gossiping cheater" This is a lie, and I created this lie by punching a hole in her integrity as a faithful woman, and by distorting her image as well mannered woman who might chatter alot, but never gossip.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 06:04:45 AM
All evil (sin) is indeed out of Satan, lies also.
But Satan cannot create ex'nihilo like God. Satan can however "create" an emptiness, or a space, he can punch a hole in a wall, he has made a hole, but the hole is "nothing" so it does not really "exist" as it is not a "thing", you can't really pick up a hole, if that makes sense.
So Satan can create lies, invent them, but his inventions are "nothing", and all of this is according to my understanding of course - but it is more or less like this;
"To create a lie, you must first distort, or remove the truth." The distortion of truth, or removal of it, is called a lie, or lying.
I cannot lie about someone, unless I say something about them that distorts the truth about them, or else removes entirely a truth; IE punch a hole in the truth about them by saying something that is "a lie" about them.
"Mrs. McKreedy is a gossiping cheater" This is a lie, and I created this lie by punching a hole in her integrity as a faithful woman, and by distorting her image as well mannered woman who might chatter alot, but never gossip.
I don't disagree with any of that. But, I think the main point is all evil comes from satan which is an absence of God. I think the main problem some have is that God foreknew that satan would commit these horrible acts yet still created him. This is where I'm fairly sure my mind fails me in understanding but I believe in order for God to create beings pleasing to him he also had to give them some semblance of choice. I believe satan and all the angels were given the ability to reject him. All subsequent evil was a direct result of satan rejecting God's rule.
QuoteI don't disagree with any of that. But, I think the main point is all evil comes from satan which is an absence of God.
And I do not disagree with this. I was only clarifying the act of "creation".
QuoteI think the main problem some have is that God foreknew that satan would commit these horrible acts yet still created him.
Satan I believe will be redeemed, if I can be bold, and everyone here knows I am as bold as brass...Satan will be presented as God's treasure of ability, his proof of infinite Grace.
When Satan is the only one left in the purifying fire, and every soul is in Heaven and in that strange, aionian silence...Bereft of every last bit of pride, seeing no one around to dominate, or worship him, when Satan himself, comes to his senses and realises his need and hunger - he too will call out for the Bread of Life. And when the gates of Heaven are opened, and he who is no more the adversary comes out of that fire, and shines in a humble, forgiven light...
God will say to his children; Behold, my grace
is sufficient.
Satan is more than the father of all evil, and God's adversary, but in eons to come he may yet be his greatest achievement of grace, having converted the father of evil itself into good. That would be perhaps, a good reason to create him.
QuoteThis is where I'm fairly sure my mind fails me in understanding but I believe in order for God to create beings pleasing to him he also had to give them some semblance of choice. I believe satan and all the angels were given the ability to reject him. All subsequent evil was a direct result of satan rejecting God's rule.
I agree with this.
Quote from: LefeinIf I drive on the wrong side of the road, why should God protect me from a crash for breaking traffic laws? Why should I expect it?
wow I did this once. On a highway. Going the wrong way at 60mph. After dark.
No idea how I survived that. God protects fools and little children. :winkgrin:
Quote from: FineLinen on November 08, 2010, 03:32:29 AM
The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html
"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."
:cloud9: Very interesting.....thanks for the link, FL..... :thumbsup:
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
Quotewow I did this once. On a highway. Going the wrong way at 60mph. After dark.
No idea how I survived that. God protects fools and little children.
But you didn't do it on purpose? ^^
QuoteAll things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
I do indeed answer it as thus, atleast according to my understanding;
"That which is nothing, is not a thing, being "no thing"'I say that evil is an absence, which is basically a "hole". A hole is full of nothing, and so it is not a "thing" in the "All things". Or else evil is a distortion, which would still be absence, being then the absence of truth about an existing thing.
Evil begins with the absence of God, who is Life, Truth. The absence of Life, is Death, and the sting of Death is sin. The absence of Truth is lie, because to be absent of Truth is to be untrue, having no truth in it.
I was talking to my friend about this just a little bit ago, and this came to me after remembering a post that showed that a good tree produces good fruit.
A good tree, produces good fruit, and though that fruit is good - if it becomes separated from the life giving branches of the tree, it begins to die, and to rot, and no longer remains good fruit. Yet even out of that rotten fruit, God can pull good seeds, so God can use the bad fruit to spread the good trees, but the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches. If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all, or even his purposes. It simply..."is so". Life = Life, separation from Life = Death.
Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches. If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."
And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.
So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate? Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way? Accident? A simple act or quirk of evolution? Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge? And if so, who takes responsibility for it?
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about. If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.
If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 08:21:42 AM
Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches. If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."
And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.
So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate? Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way? Accident? A simple act or quirk of evolution? Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge? And if so, who takes responsibility for it?
I have said that God is responsible because of one of possibly two things.
1. God can make a choice to create, but because of Gods nature that does not change there is an inherant knowledge that we will be subject to things that we perceive and evil. Those things are inherant to the journey, but God did not choose this evil and that evil but prepared the way for all our paths so that no one was lost. Proverbs 5:21
2. God is of the nature that expands and grows because that's his nature, it does not change, we are a result of that growth, and at that point it is the same as above only it has never been about God choosing to create or not create, creation is his nature that does not change.
I personally am more inclined to #2
Quote
And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.
Indeed. I was only saying "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power" as the best way I could in my limited way saying it is not something out of God's effort to cause, though he knew its moment being omniscient and omnipresent in time - hence had a plan with the seeds. Just to clarify.
QuoteSo my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate?
Simply enough, in the unchanging nature of God and his Truths. The laws have always been, not so much the mosaic laws, but the thoughts behind them that Jesus expounded on as he sat on the mount. Simple truths that; "I am Love" to be separated from love, is to become full of hate, which is a void, to become full of the black hole that is hatefulness. It is simply an unchanging truth that has its origins in God who is Truth unchanging from olam to olam.
QuoteWhere was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way? Accident? A simple act or quirk of evolution? Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge? And if so, who takes responsibility for it?
It is according to my understanding, that creation is the expression of God's truths. His voice made everything, and his voice is his word, and his word is Truth and Life; A voice is the communication of a thought, or an idea, or an essence that is in the Self of a being, or his heart, that is why the mouth speaks what is in the heart. So out of the abundance of God's unchanging heart, his essence (Love, Goodness, Truth, Life, etc), he communicated Voice and that voice Made; and what it made was Creation, and every'thing' in it shows the glory of God from the stars that show the truth of his brightness as Light, to the flower that shows his provision of glory that Solomon himself couldn't match in all of his power.
So, basically - Truth unchanging is what determined whether or not something separated from Life, would experience the fading, and voiding of that Life - what we call Death, which brings with it decrease of godliness - Rot, where as being full of life brings increase of godliness - Growth.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about. If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.
If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.
Well, really I want to ask about your thoughts re: "an act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be" - I don't want to assume; are you saying God couldn't have done anything different than what He did? And if so, wouldn't that sort of make Him a victim of His own creation, and powerless in some ways to control it?
Also, I know you've repeatedly addressed the "we can't understand excuse"; I don't know of any scriptures that say we can fully understand all about God and His ways. Maybe there's some scripture there I can't recall at the moment. OTOH, I do know we have this;
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
So Lef, you don't believe God created rot or death? If not, who said it would be that way? Something apart from God or out of His control?
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 08:38:09 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about. If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.
If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.
Well, really I want to ask about your thoughts re: "an act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be" - I don't want to assume; are you saying God couldn't have done anything different than what He did? And if so, wouldn't that sort of make Him a victim of His own creation, and powerless in some ways to control it?
Also, I know you've repeatedly addressed the "we can't understand excuse"; I don't know of any scriptures that say we can fully understand all about God and His ways. Maybe there's some scripture there I can't recall at the moment. OTOH, I do know we have this;
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Yes James there are things God cannot control as a manifestation of either his growing or his choosing to create us. This however still does not mean that his nature is not on a set path that does not change, because God does not change. There are plenty of scriptures that define what Gods control is about.
Proverbs 16:9 and 5:21 and then we have this verse.
(1 Corinthians 1:25) for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
As for Gods ways aren't our ways, that has nothing to do with not being able to understand Gods ways.
When someone who believes that a human being will burn in hell forever uses the verses that say "Gods ways arent our ways" isn't that then an equally valid responce? It is not, somewhere along the line someone was willing to believe and understand that Gods way isn't eternal hell.
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 10:47:35 PMWhitewings: As I stated before, the difference between evil (the King's English dual usage) and evil (sinning) is like this;
Will a father with his right hand swat a child's behind to correct him - and with that same right hand strangle him in order to achieve the same end of obedience?
.....
I say that God does not sin at all
Sinning is breaking rules. That's what I tried to point out.
Just killing is called murder. Murder is forbidden by one of the 10 commandments. But God Himself helped His people in wars (read to kill many). In that case killing was killing and not sin.
So before the word sin is used we need to know the law that applies (to that person)
Jabcat: I don't believe God created the principle of Rot, or Death as it is ultimately the "Absence of God". God is not about to create something that is absence of himself, as far as I know of him. That would be abandonment, giving up, and worse disowning forever - something closer to Hell and Eternal Damnation than most of us realise.
It is not out of his control, because God can exercise control over nothingness by fighting it, and filling it with "thing". God has such easy control over darkness, in his ability to fill it with light in the same way that a candle has such easy control over darkness by simply "being lit". Darkness does not cast away light, light casts away darkness.
It is in God's full control, even if it is not of God's essence, or out of God that it "became" if nothingness can even "be" in any sort of sense.
QuoteIf not, who said it would be that way?
Unchanging Truth, I don't think God decided at some point; "I shall be Love", he simply always was, and so Love is an everlasting truth, and with that everlasting truth came the inevitable result if that truth was not present in an individual, circumstance, or moment. When ever you have something, it is a truth that you have something - and with it comes the inevitable possibility that once that something is removed, in place of that something is a "nothing".
It was not decided that if a something was removed (and not subsequently replaced by another something) that there would be nothing in its place, or else some third option that we can't conceive in this universe - it simply was, and is; if you remove something and don't replace it, nothingness is what is left.
So it is with Life, if you remove it, death and rot is what is left. But God is in control, because he can fill voids where ever he chooses, and purposes to be all in all, filling all voids in all.
Paul, I'll need to think about the first part of your reply some more. Right now I don't see evidence in the scriptures that there's anything at all outside of God's control.
As for the last part, no, I don't think someone arguing ET and using the "God's ways/thoughts not ours" argument is valid to prove that particular point, because there are many other scriptural things that can be accessed to show ET is incorrect. I don't approach that topic from either a purely logical, or emotional angle. I believe the scriptures can be used to make the case.
What do you believe those scriptures are addressing in Isaiah 55?
Lefein, I think I understand better what you're saying. But right now, I don't see how ANYTHING can exist - even "absence" - without someone deeming it would be so. I've been thinking, it seems like we can reason and reason, and make suppositions. But what do the scriptures say? I'm going to need to go back and really try to see what the scriptures support in this matter.
Right now, I believe they pretty clearly say God creates and uses evil, and darkness as well as light. What I am open to is, what does that mean, what are the "best" interpretations, translations; and then what does that entail, i.e., what does it look like. And what are the differences between evil, sin, wickedness, etc.
I'll probably shut this down for a bit, pray/meditate on it some, and perhaps chat more about it later.
Thanks to you both (Paul and Lefein) for the pleasant, productive, and stimulating discussion. :bigGrin:
And likewise to you Jabcat. Have a pleasant time with your Maker. :)
:) I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.
P.S. If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em. :mblush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 09:09:46 AM
:) I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.
P.S. If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em. :mblush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM
:thumbsup:
Rely not on your own understanding. There are several verses in the Bible warning us about our limited insight, intellect and understanding. That doesn't mean I don't know some solid foundational truths about God directly from his word. I don't have to reason my way there, just read. The further we get away from that the higher the liklihood that we are incorrect. Our reasoning will only get us so far. The rest is faith. I personally do not need to understand. I have fallen in love with my Creator and he has revealed his nature to me personally. What else do I need?
Quote from: ShawnI have fallen in love with my Creator and he has revealed his nature to me personally. What else do I need?
Nothing. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 08:55:14 AM
Paul, I'll need to think about the first part of your reply some more. Right now I don't see evidence in the scriptures that there's anything at all outside of God's control.
As for the last part, no, I don't think someone arguing ET and using the "God's ways/thoughts not ours" argument is valid to prove that particular point, because there are many other scriptural things that can be accessed to show ET is incorrect. I don't approach that topic from either a purely logical, or emotional angle. I believe the scriptures can be used to make the case.
What do you believe those scriptures are addressing in Isaiah 55?
Yes there is evidence James.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
The real issue is what that means. I can use the phrase that God did not have control , but the implication is automatically negative. It is good that God did not command them, it is good that it did not come up on gods hearts that they do it. It is Good that God cannot cause evil if indeed he is responsible for our existance. It means that what we are becoming is entirely pure and without question righteous.
And again in the Isaiah 55 what exactly are you referring to? That his ways are not our ways? If so, where have I ever doubted that God don't do things like us? You are under the assumption that it means we cannot understand, I am not. No where in the bible does it say we cannot ever understand. No where. Verses are used to posit that through inference.
You can say to me that I am not to lean on my own understanding, but that has nothing to do with a biblical application that I absolutely cannot understand. My understanding is not dependant upon you understanding the same thing the same way and vice versa.
Quote from: PaulThe real issue is what that means.
It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god. Many, maybe most, still do, to this day. And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.
Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 04:25:33 PM
Quote from: PaulThe real issue is what that means.
It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god. Many, maybe most, still do, to this day. And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.
Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Of course and God did not cause such a thing,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 04:28:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 04:25:33 PM
Quote from: PaulThe real issue is what that means.
It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god. Many, maybe most, still do, to this day. And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.
Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Of course and God did not cause such a thing,
I agree. He didn't cause it. They are coming up with heinous things that never even entered his mind. They are doing things that grieve him.
Now how you fit that into a theology is up to you.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 04:33:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 04:28:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 04:25:33 PM
Quote from: PaulThe real issue is what that means.
It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god. Many, maybe most, still do, to this day. And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.
Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Of course and God did not cause such a thing,
I agree. He didn't cause it. They are coming up with heinous things that never even entered his mind. They are doing things that grieve him.
Now how you fit that into a theology is up to you.
That I agree with.
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 09:09:46 AM
:) I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.
P.S. If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em. :mblush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM
Everyone can learn to trust for various reasons, I disagree with my own son over some of these issues but I will not get in the way of his trust and certainly do not intend to slight his trust simply because I view God differently.
I agree not to trust someone who says they have it ALL figured out. I don't have it all figured out, but that doesn't mean I am wrong on this issue either. ;)
Does God Ever Lie?
Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin
(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.
CHB
Quote from: FineLinen on November 08, 2010, 03:32:29 AM
The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html
"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."
Amen FineLinen. Good to see you. :bgdance:
CHB
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:21:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:09:31 AM
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.
So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
Does God Ever Lie?
Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin
(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.
CHB
We lie, God doesn't that's just a fact. He cannot lie because, he can't. That inability is a supreme strength.
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:21:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:09:31 AM
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.
So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?
CHB
Nope, you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
Does God Ever Lie?
Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin
(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.
CHB
We lie, God doesn't that's just a fact. He cannot lie because, he can't. That inability is a supreme strength.
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
Yeah. A pathological liar will start believing their own lies. I've watched it happen. It's just amazing to me. :mshock:
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
Does God Ever Lie?
Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
Yes. We are lowered, veiled and blinded. Teachings in teh Bible took 1000's of years to write down. I would saw the path to falsehood is paved very well that way....
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 08:21:42 AM
Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches. If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."
And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.
So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate? Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way? Accident? A simple act or quirk of evolution? Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge? And if so, who takes responsibility for it?
Amen!!! jabcat, that is so right. :bgdance:
CHB
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
You said, "it is how the law works". Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
You said, "it is how the law works". Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.
CHB
What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained. You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.
I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:21:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:09:31 AM
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.
So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?
CHB
Nope, you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.
Nope, wasn't trying to do that Paul. First you said that God didn't have anything to do with the evil we experience, then you said above that God set up a system that we reap what we sow. If God set up this system of laws that causes us to reap what we sow then how do you reason around that? Everything that happens in this life is a reap and sow situation.
CHB
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 06:01:26 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
You said, "it is how the law works". Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.
CHB
What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained. You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.
I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.
I am not playing silly games Paul, just trying to figure out how you come to the conclusions you come to. I have read all of your post and that is why I ask these questions. Would you prefer I didn't ask you any more questions?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 05:21:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 05:09:31 AM
I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.
Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?
Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.
So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?
CHB
Nope, you are trying to put words in my mouth rather than have a conversation.
Nope, wasn't trying to do that Paul. First you said that God didn't have anything to do with the evil we experience, then you said above that God set up a system that we reap what we sow. If God set up this system of laws that causes us to reap what we sow then how do you reason around that? Everything that happens in this life is a reap and sow situation.
CHB
The context of my comments was concerning the moral nature of Gods involVement. There is nothing to reason around.
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:08:37 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 06:01:26 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
We reap what we sow, liars can actually start truly believing their lies and other lies because that is what they reap. It is how the law works.
You said, "it is how the law works". Whose law are you talking about? It is God's laws, right? It always comes back to God no matter what it is.
CHB
What I am saying is that there is a certain nature behind it all and it is what I have explained. You are not required to agree with me, but I'm not going to play silly games with you concerning what you want to imply what I say means.
I have given direct answers in my other posts, read them or don't, it is up to you.
I am not playing silly games Paul, just trying to figure out how you come to the conclusions you come to. I have read all of your post and that is why I ask these questions. Would you prefer I didn't ask you any more questions?
CHB
If every question you ask is an implication rather than the appearance of a sincere interest then sure, don't ask me anything more I am not interested.
:cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.
Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.
God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 06:40:30 PM
:cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.
Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.
God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My :2c: Blessings....
For the record removing God from the equation and learning what the nature of God is in the equation is two different things.
:cloud9: Point taken....
I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.
Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.
To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".
All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.
Just had to get that off of my chest.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
One thing I feel confident of is, I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.
:cloud9: Amen....
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 06:43:19 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2010, 06:40:30 PM
:cloud9: I agree with you CHB; it's impossible to remove God from the equation. As I said before, Jesus, who only spoke what He heard His Father speak, PROPHESIED the DESTRUCTION of the temple.
Prophecy is not fortune-telling, it's the same Spirit that SPOKE the creation into existance, more closely aligned to a King's decree, than a "prediction". The principle behind it, is calling those things that are not, as though they were, ie. DECLARING the end from the beginning. As carnal man, we tend to just focus on the words spoken, and not the CONTENT, which is the Spirit behind the words. They are literally vessels for His Spirit.
God spoke judgment over many situations throughout time as we know it, the potter's right to break the vessels He created, who is more concerned with their eternal state and the eternal state of those around them, than their transitory state. My :2c: Blessings....
For the record removing God from the equation and learning what the nature of God is in the equation is two different things.
God is a variable in the equasion. So removing Him from the equasion gives information about His nature.
:cloud9: Not unusual, but that one flew right over my head... :dontknow: :winkgrin:
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is.
I can see that you perceive that, but it is not what I am saying.
When I state that God cannot lie, it can be percieved that as a limitation, but I see it as a supreme strength. I see any limitation to my perception as something I need to learn why it is a supreme strength.
I have no problem if you disagree, but I am simply making it known that if you imply I am saying something is stronger than God, it is not true.
Quote from: PaulWhen I state that God cannot lie, it can be percieved that as a limitation, but I see it as a supreme strength.
Agreed. He is truth. The truth cannot lie.
For which reason we can trust him.
When I read back all the posts I think many have missed, imo, what sin is.
Sin is missing the mark. Or breaking the rules.
If we look at the 10 commandments:
13 You shall not kill/murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
It's always "you" (mankind) not "Me" (God)
God only sins if He breaks a rule. But stricktly speaking the above rules do not apply to God. So He can't break them.
If I make a person sick I'm doing a bad thing.
When God makes Job sick He's testing Job.
To me it seems God plays with another set of rules as we do.
Just like a 18+ person is allowed to drink alcohol but a 17 year old is breaking the law when doing so.
We should remember where the term we use "omnipotent" (all powerful) comes from when it comes to God's nature Biblically. Omnipotence is as the English reads; Almighty which is to be "all-mighty", "all strong".
God cannot lie, this most certainly is not a limit on God's supremacy - Paul is right in saying this. God can do nothing weak, or in weakness, everything he does is abundantly beyond our expectation in goodness, glory, and provision, and in general just all sorts of good positive stuff. God does it all (good) and all things he does with strength. We need not ever pick up a Bible and fear that we see God doing something "weak".
With this in mind...
Sin of any kind is weak, lowly, and without strength. Sin is weakness, sin is not strong, neither is it strength, and never shall it be. Not being able to lie (which is to sin) is not a limitation or a weakness...not being able to lie removes weakness by creating a perpetual fence of character that says in essence this;
"I am so powerful, that I cannot be dispowered, or made weak, there is nothing, no situation, no circumstance, no voice, no higher thing, idea, or nothing that can make me lie, not even myself - I am supreme over even my own abilities, I am not able to be disempowered even my my own power."
God's inability to sin, is not a limitation, it is rather his supreme ability to never be able to disempower his righteousness, and strength - by engaging in sin which is nothing, and the worst of all weaknesses.
In application, God did not invent this "weakness" that is sin, or evil. It came, and comes when people become distant from the source of Strength, and his grace. When you don't exercise, or partake of the nourishing source of strength - you become weak, it is a simple unchanging truth.
God maintains control, for he can strengthen by his all-strength, his almightiness, his supremacy even over weakness - for he cannot be weakened or disempowered.
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.
Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.
To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".
All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.
Just had to get that off of my chest.
CHB
But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake; after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things.
LOVE is the answer.
LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass". It is known. when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them.
just my one cent.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 07:40:25 PM
Quote from: PaulWhen I state that God cannot lie, it can be percieved that as a limitation, but I see it as a supreme strength.
Agreed. He is truth. The truth cannot lie.
For which reason we can trust him.
A question though is, does God use tools to perform His purpose? Did He
send a lying spirit as He said He did?
:cloud9: Exactly, WW..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: livingwater on November 08, 2010, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.
Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.
To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".
All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.
Just had to get that off of my chest.
CHB
But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake; after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things.
LOVE is the answer.
LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass". It is known. when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them.
just my one cent.
By the grace of God go I, as Paul said. If not for the grace of God and him directing my steps, I could have been Hitler, Charles Manson, or any of the other killers out there. If any one of us had been put in the same circumstances that the one's I mentioned was, we would have done the same things. God chose for me to be the way I am.
CHB
A thought just came to me a few minutes ago that I wanted to share.
How much faith?
How much faith does it take to still believe that God is in control, even when all circumstances seem to be full of evil? How much more faith does it take to still believe that God is in control even knowing that the evil of your circumstances was not his invention? That he is in control, even despite a weirdness that is not one of his created devices?
I'd say a great deal of faith. But compared to the other;
How much faith does it take to still believe that God is somehow good, and righteous, and perfect if his heart according to his own word is full of evil, and evil imaginations, and evil methods, and evil ideas? How much faith does it take to still believe that God is somehow Holy, if out of the abundance of his heart he spoke into being all the wrongs that you have suffered?
It takes little faith, because it is a supposition made in denial that there is perfection in the imperfect heart of God. Perfection and Imperfection are (when it comes to God most certainly of all) mutually exclusive.
It is a beautiful thing in the heart of God to have children who still believe their father is in control, even when something he has not made, a weird nothingness that is sin, and evil, is in the midst of their circumstances causing havoc.
Is it beautiful to the heart of God who is full of darkness to even have children at all? Out of the abundance of what...Did God speak into being, Creation?
God spoke Light into being, and so his heart is full of the beautiful wonder that Light is. God is Light, and so his heart is Light, and so his heart is abundantly Light - and so he spoke Light, and Light was.
God's heart is infinite, and so out of the infinite fullness of Light in him, he spoke the expression of light that we have in our world.
God's heart is infinite, and so...if God spoke evil into being, his heart his infinitely full of evil...God is not so grand that he is above his own truths.
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent. It takes little faith to just throw one's arms up and say "God did it!" when no other sufficient answer comes across our minds.
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: livingwater on November 08, 2010, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
I have to agree with Paul and Lefein on this one thing, God is not evil, he is not a liar, murderer, rapist, or any of the bad things. Everything that God does is good, perfect, loving, honest, and for the good of all mankind. I believe we should think of God in these terms, knowing that everything will work out for the good and perfect benefit for all mankind.
Now, does God use all these things to bring about the conclusion, the final outcome the good of mankind, I believe he does. I don't understand all of it now because we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.
To say that God has his limitations I think is saying he is not supreme, or highest in rank, that there are other forces that are stronger than he is. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the fact that God existed before anything else did and that none of the things that exist would exist without God bringing them into being. If something existed before God and things just happened without God being the instigator then I would be worried that whatever this thing is would disrupt God's plan. How could we trust God if there is some force that exist without God having control of it? I would have to say "well sure but what about this other thing that is in force, that God cannot do anything about".
All of this reasoning boggles the mind. One thing I feel confident of is , I know my God lives and he is in control of all the things that effect me and the rest of the world. I know that he has my best interest at heart and will not let me down. I know that no matter what anyone else says that God is for me and he is supreme above all powers and principalities. God deals directly and indirectly with us all. He is head of this corporation of which I am a part. He has a lot of powers and humans working for him but they do not work independently of him.
Just had to get that off of my chest.
CHB
But since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE, and we are one through Christ; and greater works we will do; and WE have the mind of Christ; then what's to stop you from killing abortion doctors, killing rapists, smashing babies heads against the rocks, having people eat each other, skinned alive, burned at the stake; after all....It is Christ working in you to do his GOOD pleasure; which for some this good includes all these things.
LOVE is the answer.
LOVE revealed is not imo through a "dark glass". It is known. when we lay down our life for our brother; not murder, rape kill them.
just my one cent.
By the grace of God go I, as Paul said. If not for the grace of God and him directing my steps, I could have been Hitler, Charles Manson, or any of the other killers out there. If any one of us had been put in the same circumstances that the one's I mentioned was, we would have done the same things. God chose for me to be the way I am.
CHB
Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?
good grief. C'mon, Paul...
Why would you say a thing like that?
That's a rhetorical question. No answer required.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 08:41:24 PM
good grief. C'mon, Paul...
Why would you say a thing like that?
That's a rhetorical question. No answer required.
I asked a question about what someone thinks is possible. Why is that a problem? I am not implying that he thinks that, I am asking if what he believes entertains that possibility so that I do not imply any assumptions on my part.
No one is required to answer anything and I never said anyone was.
Quote from: livingwater
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
You have got to be kidding, right?
CHB
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
I just wanted to point out that in regards to God's thoughts not being our thoughts, the verse in Isaiah is speaking of His HIGHER MERCY!!!
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?
Paul, are you doing what you accused me of doing?
Since it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor.
QuoteYou have got to be kidding, right?
Not by a single wit am I joking. I am thoroughly serious.
QuoteSince it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor.
Hypothetically, what if he did choose you to be that vessel of dishonour?
Quote from: lomarah on November 08, 2010, 08:58:32 PM
I just wanted to point out that in regards to God's thoughts not being our thoughts, the verse in Isaiah is speaking of His HIGHER MERCY!!!
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 09:00:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
Is it possible, that you have no assurance now that God will not cause you to go strangle someones kids?
Paul, are you doing what you accused me of doing?
Since it is not in man to direct his steps and since it is God working in me to will and to do of his pleasure. I have faith that whatever I do God is behind it. I have no desire to do what you said so, I believe that is proof that God hasn't chosen me to be a vessel of dishonor.
I made it clear in my reply to Molly that I asked the question without that intent, sorry if I did not qualify that in my reply to you.. Note I asked if you believe it is possible I did not say "so are you saying" as if I already made up my mind about what you wrote.
You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?
I think what we have here is a battle over what I'd call "Applied-Calvinism".
According to which; God doesn't send people to Hell, he just makes people act like it...At the end of the day we still get the evil god of Calvinism, the only thing that is different is that Hell has been relocated, and redefined; instead of a place of torture, it has become a mindset of divinely sponsored evildoing.
willieH: Hi Livingwater... :winkgrin:
Quote from: livingwater on November 08, 2010, 03:39:17 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:37:25 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:32:49 AM
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2010, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 03:17:46 AM
Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
:dontknow:
Paul
God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge. God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.
God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.
Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.
CHB
Easy, ALL has a context of what is righteousness. Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.
Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?
CHB
can God tell a lie?
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Though you are welcome to refuse to accept this...
"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...
That this awful event takes place in
YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him... For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time --
Isaiah 46:10Sorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for
YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift" :rolleye:
GOD is ABLE to do
anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in
ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...
The Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "
do"...
You are a human being which
CAN (are able)
murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Molly, is it possible God uses evil tools to accomplish His good and better purposes? For example, did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?
Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? No, and so what? lol.
QuoteThat this awful event takes place in YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him... For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time -- Isaiah 46:10
Applied Calvinism. And what of God not commanding his children to sacrifice their own babies?
AV Lv 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.
AV Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Quote"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...
Knowledge of evil and good is not what brings salvation - that is an Eastern Religious idea; one that is expressed by saying that one must be reincarnated over, and over again until he has experienced it all, and has obtained enlightenment.
Knowledge of God alone is required for salvation, and completeness. It is God who completes, not knowledge. People may perish for a lack of knowledge, but they only need enough knowledge that is sufficient for pointing their direction upwards - they don't need to know left, right, down, diagonal, and every direction possible - all they need is the direction of 'up'. That is the purpose of knowledge, that alone is its purpose. It is not for completeness.
Let us not worship knowledge over God.
I'd rather have incomplete knowledge and know God, than have all the knowledge in the world and not know him.
Quote
Sorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift"
Better to be an "atheist" who knows the true God, than a "theist" who pretends to know him by attributing all manner of silliness to him. God is not a clown who does tricks at a divine circus by proving that he can make stones into bread. He simply will not use his power to prove such a point.
And if I may dare say, by your own theology of God's declarations being Absolute; God himself said that he cannot lie, and therefore it is not that he "can" lie, because straight out of the very mouth of God he has spoken as an unchanging, absolute truth;
"I - God - Can'Not - Lie"
That means, it is thoroughly, absolutely, infinitely, and always shall be - impossible. Most especially, according to the theology you seem to hold to.
QuoteGOD is ABLE to do anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...
So for all practical purposes; it is impossible, because the unchanging God cannot change so drastically as to negate his entire omnipresent, omniscient, all-time-dwelling, all-place-dwelling self by lying at any single moment in the entirety of his infinite existence.
QuoteThe Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "do"...
Applied Calvinism.
QuoteYou are a human being which CAN (are able) murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER...
We however, unlike God - are full of sin, which God simply cannot do.
It is impossible for God to sin, it is impossible for God to lie.
I don't quite care if a single interpretation of a verse in a book says that God can do the impossible (ludicrous more like, ludicrous and rootedly divided-unstable in his heart if he did so) - his omnipotence is not a license for ludicrous use of his power.
It is not possible for God to lie, but God can do what is impossible for
men to do. And if I recall...it is impossible for men
not to lie. What man can't do, God can; He is powerful enough that he cannot lie.
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made? That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created? Is that correct? And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.
How could the devil create sin? I don't think he created, simply distorted the balance of Gods attributes. By taking the attibute of love and focusing it on himself, that gave the elements of power, which God gave him to be no longer focused on helping others but focused on helping himself. So that Gods power that he gave him, powers is now used for helping himself. With this unbalance, this could be the birthing of evil and lies, which might take a large philosophical approach as to why selfishness breeds something called a lie. Or was it that the lie first bred selfishness. The lie that one can become as God and sit upon his throne. Why did God allow this "unbalancing" of power within the angel or cherubim? Because God gives his creatures freedom and some angels it seemed followed the devil in this revolt and believed his lies.
It seems that the creation of freedom was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them freedom. As to the scope of that freedom that angels enjoyed it is probably far more freedom than humanity currently has access to. The freedom to create beautyfull creations, music and artisitic beauty, but without love these powers are no longer shared but kept to themselves for selfish pursuit. Most of the angels choose love and therefore choose God, but some it seemed were intrigued by living life on their own terms. I think that humanity are a people that were intrigued by the idea of living life on their own terms, rather than Gods terms and in his mercy God decided to rescue us by sending his son to die for us. Even though we may or may not have preexisted and made this choice to come here ( that's another story) but even today at least in spirit we choose between doing good and evil, and even if we dont actually commit evil, most of us in our spirits in our inner hearts have desired to to that which is evil or doing that which is selfish, perhaps imagining being a German soldier in ww2 driving a tiger and fighting the allies. Even some of our childish imaginations are based on the creativity of our spirit. Although many today are so spiritually dead that they no longer have any imagination and operate primarily on a outward brain based conciousness, which is very limited and boring way of living life, a lot of our academia is based on this type of thinking, not evil as such, but it is evil and cold because it denies the inner spirit of man.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "
make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 ---
ALL THINGS were
MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any
THING ...
MADE, that was
MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE
IS before ...
ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...
ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being
predestinated according to the
PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL
THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL
things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the
WORD of
YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things"
KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place)
BY the
WORD of that DECLARATION --
Isaiah 46:10To propose, that some
thing (even
ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of
ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites.
Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it? If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.
Pictures speak a thousand words, and so I must wonder...
Did God invent this?
Graphic, Do-Not-Look if you are sensitive. I MEAN it. I cannot stress it enough.
http://www.asianoffbeat.com/photos/child-abuse-cases-enrage-chinese-public_4793.jpg
http://thetruthwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Abortion-Roe-v-Wade.jpg
Would it be better for God to tie a millstone around his neck, and be cast into the sea? Than to have offended the little ones he himself knit together in their mother's womb?
TT, I'll look at your post more closely later. But you've been here long enough to have caught on to the guidelines regarding the use of so-called "freewill". Thanks, James.
Notice to others. I've seen that term used multiple times in the past couple of days. If it continues to be posted against repeated requests, it will be deleted from future posts. Outright refusal to comply with the clearly stated guideline, is subject to a temporary ban.
If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well. Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.
It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense. The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.
It being "now moderated" is not entirely accurate. It's been moderated as recently as the past couple of weeks.
The specific guidelines, available for all to read and pointed out numerous times, states FREE WILL and SOVEREIGNTY terms are mainly at issue. Encouraged is the use of more "creative", and/or sticking to the scriptures during discussion.
I'll look at other aspects of your request, but do the scriptures NOT say that God has ordained all things? Or perhaps that is "over a line". However, again, the specific terms are noted above and elsewhere. I'll look at it further.
I only think that if one side of a debate aisle, and their interpretation of scripture is silenced, the other should not be allowed to continue voicing their opinion and interpretation without the same limits that are put on the silenced.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 10:11:49 PM
If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well. Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.
It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense. The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.
To me the key is to use scripture, you only find the forbidden term in question in "some" translations, but the term is not necessary to make a scriptural point, I have done it many times.
I disagree that either side is silenced. I think that is incorrect. The request is SPECIFIC to SPECIFIC terms.
If you have further issues regarding moderation, plz go to PM. Public criticism of moderation is not allowed. Thanks.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 10:16:15 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 10:11:49 PM
If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well. Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.
It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense. The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.
To me the key is to use scripture, you only find the forbidden term in question in "some" translations, but the term is not necessary to make a scriptural point, I have done it many times.
:thumbsup:
I wasn't criticising...Yet so be it, if I see anything that even hints at "No freewill" I will report it and hopefully expect a fair result.
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 07:40:25 PM
Quote from: PaulWhen I state that God cannot lie, it can be percieved that as a limitation, but I see it as a supreme strength.
Agreed. He is truth. The truth cannot lie.
For which reason we can trust him.
A question though is, does God use tools to perform His purpose? Did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 10:20:41 PM
I wasn't criticising...Yet so be it, if I see anything that even hints at "No freewill" I will report it and hopefully expect a fair result.
Lefein, my suggestion is, that you refocus. Go back and count how many times over the past weeks the term "free will" has been allowed to stay on the boards, just out of an attempt to not "pick" too much. Whereas, SOVEREIGN is not ONE TIME, that I'm aware of, in a post over that same period of time.
Believe me, we can get MUCH pickier if you like, but I'd suggest you may want to reconsider pushing things there. :2c:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 10:02:07 PM
Pictures speak a thousand words, and so I must wonder...
Did God invent this?
Graphic, Do-Not-Look if you are sensitive. I MEAN it. I cannot stress it enough.
http://www.asianoffbeat.com/photos/child-abuse-cases-enrage-chinese-public_4793.jpg
http://thetruthwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Abortion-Roe-v-Wade.jpg
Would it be better for God to tie a millstone around his neck, and be cast into the sea? Than to have offended the little ones he himself knit together in their mother's womb?
No He did not invent it.
If the topic of freedom is outright banned then we cannot discuss much at all. But if it just means using different words I can comply to that, it takes getting used to, sorry Jabcat I just find the concept rather bizzare, ......maybe the reason its banned is because people have heard certain pastors use certain terms and associate particular teachings with those words and so if one uses the word for other things other teachings, people get confused and angry :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
If the topic of freedom is outright banned then we cannot discuss much at all. But if it just means using different words I can comply to that, it takes getting used to, sorry Jabcat I just find the concept rather bizzare, ......maybe the reason its banned is because people have heard certain pastors use certain terms and associate particular teachings with those words and so if one uses the word for other things other teachings, people get confused and angry :dontknow:
Bingo! :bigGrin: It's spelled out in the guidelines. Thanks, apology accepted. :reachout:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2010, 09:40:41 PM
Molly, is it possible God uses evil tools to accomplish His good and better purposes? For example, did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?
This can be a question as much to me so I will answer it.
First and foremost I will directly answer and say no. I think we can use scripture conveniently in the literal text from any point of view. If I quote Matthew 25:46 I will certainly be told that I cannot accept that scripture as I find it in the translation I use it from. So a reference to God sending a lying spirit as well does not have to remain confined to the literal wording that it is asserted with.
If one of Gods tools was to create a law that holds us accountable for what "WE" do then Gods moral character of righteousness remains intact. It can then be asserted that God knew I would want to lie so he allows that spirit to manifest because I have the abiity to lie from the nature oif my own will as I choose to lie I am going to reap what I sow and if I neve restrain myself from lying and come to even enjoy it, then true belief in not only my own lies but others lies can manifest.
What is not often heard is that the Law of reaping what we sow is how God can maintain his sovereignty and not be outdone by mans will and the choices he makes from it.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 09:50:23 PMIt seems that the creation of free will was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them free will.
I think free will or not is not relavant in this thread because IF we have free will then the free and ultimate will of God surely will overrule ours.
Neither do I think we have the best possible existance. Happyness is always the best possible existance.
Happyness is still happyness if it's totally fake. (See the Matrix movies)
We are promissed a better life. That means God knows for sure this life is not the best possible life. Best as in most happy.
So imo we are here for a reason. Just like in the boring schooldays. We all know a math teacher is someone who talks in your sleep. But still we learned thing to get a better life later on. Education=$
If we look at the story of Job we see that God was very pleased with Job. And still God tested Job with illness.
Ok satan did the job to Job. But only by permission of God. Are Father and satan working as a team?.....
Are those tests just tests? Calimities perhaps? Or evil?
I know Joseph Mengle liked to do some scientific tests. Most people call him evil.
Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?
So to me Paul, I think it's important to go back to the original languages. I can do that and find actual scriptural explanations for the Matthew verse.
I don't have time now, but I'll try to look at the hebrew later re: the "lying spirit" verse. I'll see if that's indeed a consistent, accurate rendering.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 09:41:29 PM
Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? No, and so what? lol.
A challenging statment that would challenge God himself. I don't think its been thought through properly.
God can do the impossible, create a rock so large that even God can lift it
But if God can lift it then he cannot do the impossible, he cannot create a rock big enough to challenge God to lift it
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 09:41:29 PM
Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? No, and so what? lol.
A challenging statment that would challenge God himself. I don't think its been thought through properly.
God can do the impossible, create a rock so large that even God can lift it
But if God can lift it then he cannot do the impossible, he cannot create a rock big enough to challenge God to lift it
The premise that this question get asked most often towards is in my opinion flawed. We can say God is all powerful and ask a much more poinant question. Can God lie? If God cannot lie then how is God all powerful?
The premise is contradicted by scripture in the first place. If God cannot create a rock so big that he cannot lift it, the premise that I take is a truth that the questions answer becomes insignificant.
What difference does it make that God cannot do that with a rock? None at all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2010, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 09:50:23 PMIt seems that the creation of free will was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them free will.
I think free will or not is not relavant in this thread because IF we have free will then the free and ultimate will of God surely will overrule ours.
Neither do I think we have the best possible existance. Happyness is always the best possible existance.
Happyness is still happyness if it's totally fake. (See the Matrix movies)
We are promissed a better life. That means God knows for sure this life is not the best possible life. Best as in most happy.
So imo we are here for a reason. Just like in the boring schooldays. We all know a math teacher is someone who talks in your sleep. But still we learned thing to get a better life later on. Education=$
If we look at the story of Job we see that God was very pleased with Job. And still God tested Job with illness.
Ok satan did the job to Job. But only by permission of God. Are Father and satan working as a team?.....
Are those tests just tests? Calimities perhaps? Or evil?
I know Joseph Mengle liked to do some scientific tests. Most people call him evil.
Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?
Now I see that free will does cause confusion. My idea of free will is not the same as yours, so for clarifacation when I mean free will I mean freedom of choice, not freedom to be God.
Adam and Eve could have been happy in the garden by choosing the tree of life instead of the tree of Good and evil, they would have lived for thousands of years enjoying the peace of the garden. But that was not enough for Adam and Eve, they wanted more than to be happy, they wanted to be wise, as God, this is often the case today. People have oppportuities every day to be happy, but they choose to be miserable and often in an effort to maintain their misery deny they even had an opportunity to be happy, in order to reinforce their own misery.
If happyness is fake, it does not satisfy. Alcaholics and drug addicts often live life of fake happiness, but deep down they are very unhappy. Also people often pretend to be happy in life but feel that something is missing and often end up doing things, which are seen are seen as miserable horrible life such as missionary work, that appears to be bad, but for the individual lconcerned brings them true happiness and contentment.
God and the devil don't work as a team, simply that they both know that God is higher in authority. They are on the opposites sides of morality. One is love the other is selfishness.
They are not ying and yang for ying and yang are complimentary and exist for eternity. The devil is temporary and so is evil, for this reason the son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Future creations will not have to go through death like we have, if God created evil though it means future creations will have to go through evil, for that knowledge is still in existence if God does not destroy it.
Nde is challenging, it means we were in heaven or reincarnate on this earth plane over again for different experiences to overcome. If this is true it does not change anything, other than some spirit beings might want to experience this temporary darkness and overcome it with love, a challenge... if you like, for these beings, but it does not mean that God created evil, simply they are taking advantage of this fallen state while it is availalble in this temporary drip, drop of eternity, maybe they are testing to see how far Love can really go. But who these beings are and how this process works is a different story.
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—
something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
God bless you from olam, to olam, and beyond Molly. :thumbsup:
The person who practices sin belongs to the evil one, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason that the Son of God was revealed was to destroy what the devil has been doing.
1 john 3,8
john 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies
How can God be in all things and create all things, when he states the above verses.
How can God who is truth create a being whos very language is a lie?
There seems to be a misunderstanding about when God created all things he means every single detailed event.
It seems to be that God is the creator but not the abuser. God created angels, but it is they who have abused that creation for their own desires and have not loved as God does.
willieH: Hi Lefein... :Sparkletooth:
I wonder why it is you continue to address my posts on Tentmaker? Do you not KNOW by now, that you shall not waver my position in the slightest? And that you shall only get the
same replies to the
same questions? :faint:
I don't have a problem with your beliefs... they do not faze me even in the smallest way. I have already stepped on the stones you walk upon at present, brother... and moved on. :dontknow:
That said... :heat:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
Quote from: willieHThat this awful event takes place in YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him... For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time -- Isaiah 46:10
Applied Calvinism. And what of God not commanding his children to sacrifice their own babies?
FIRST --- The entirety of the history of this planet was DECLARED by
YHVH before it occured. You are welcome to deny that a DIVINE DECLARATION is exactly what will occur (prophetic notation)... that is your affair.
SECOND --- Concerning "applied Calvinism" --- :Yeahright: -- labels are given by those who are insecure in what they believe, and a weak endeavor to degrade another by their usage. The "I know you are but what am I", approach... :laughing7:
THIRD --- There are many things which GOD "commands" and which avail DISOBEDIENCE of them... This is the process of the REVELATION of the EVIL side of the KNOWLEDGE contained in the TREE... surprised you haven't noticed this by now! :mshock:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMAV Lv 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.
AV Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
It says that GOD did not
COMMAND them -- And I have not implied that He "commanded" them...
Also, ...though it does not appear in this Scripture, the PROPHECY of their DISOBEDIENCE was part of --
Isaiah 46:10 -- being PART of the reverse trailing of that which was noted END to BEGINNING, ...God did DECLARE beforehand that within
retracing of that DECLARATION -- that which would take place (manifest) BEGINNING to END, ...that these (noted in this Scripture) would DISOBEY... and that He had COMMANDED them NOT.
It really is not as hard as you in your own little (unrevealed and) complicated way, try to make it, Lefein.
Neither did He "CAUSE" Judah to sin... Judah "chose" according to the prior DECLARATION of
YHVH which had LONG BEFORE made notation of those choices (which indeed, they actually [in
missing the mark],
made ...according to the COMPLETE ACCURACY of the DECLARATION which preceeded those "choices" that were made)...
Quote from: willieH"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
Knowledge of evil and good is not what brings salvation - that is an Eastern Religious idea; one that is expressed by saying that one must be reincarnated over, and over again until he has experienced it all, and has obtained enlightenment.
Knowledge of God alone is required for salvation, and completeness.
Salvation is a BY product of necessity due to the manifest PURPOSE of
YHVH God (which you are seemingly yet to recognize).
No offense intended toward you, ...but I think the biggest hurdle for you dear brother, is that you are UNREVEALED as to the fact that this WORLD was not created, so that GOD could "save" His Children... because He had "MISTAKENLY" handed them their course to choose as they did, and therefore He was compelled to COMPENSATE by reacting to THEM and THEIR "choices"!
:omg: Please! ...You would have the POTTER having to respond to the CLAY and the doings of DIRT, rather than the CLAY responding to its MAKER! Scripture speaks quite LOUDLY about this type of foolish thinking --
Rom 9:20-21 -- Yet you shall shut your eyes and ears from seeing and hearing what is STATED in the
WORD on this issue.
The POTTER ---
MAKES --
both ...the vessels of HONOR
and DISHONOR, Lefein! --
Rom 9:21This WORLD was created to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL as contained in the HEART and
WORD of
YHVH... and necessitated the recovery (salvation) of His Children as part of the PROCESS of that REVELATION, ...which would be intimate and living parts of the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil...
Until you come to realize this, you shall poke around in the
spiritual dark, concerning peripheral issues to that realization...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
It is God who completes, not knowledge.
I agree, but the completion is done by the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of
JESUS CHRIST --
Eph 3:19 -- To KNOW
LOVE in its COMPLETE and TOTAL sense, is to KNOW what is OPPOSITE it... Then shall the LOVE surpass the KNOWLEDGE itself by coming to rest IN that TOTALITY... That NOTHING within
YHVH is unrevealed... and He therefore becomes ALL in ALL... which
IS the ETERNAL scenario.
Part of "knowing" what
LOVE is, ...and
LOVE "knowing" you... is the experiential KNOWLEDGE contained IN
LOVE... only in this, can COMPLETION be the result.
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMPeople may perish for a lack of knowledge, but they only need enough knowledge that is sufficient for pointing their direction upwards - they don't need to know left, right, down, diagonal, and every direction possible - all they need is the direction of 'up'. That is the purpose of knowledge, that alone is its purpose. It is not for completeness.
This is simply your own conclusion... which I disagree with... Mine differs from yours... I believe that KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is a necessary part of KNOWING who and what GOD ...IS... For it is HIS KNOWLEDGE --
Gen 3:22 -- without coming to "know" intimately what HE "KNOWS" (which is gained by an experience of it)... then I cannot possibly "KNOW Him"
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMLet us not worship knowledge over God.
You might give EAR to your own words once in a while, bro. :wink1:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
I'd rather have incomplete knowledge and know God, than have all the knowledge in the world and not know him.
I agree... but "ALL the knowledge in the world" is but a small part of HIS KNOWLEDGE... and until you KNOW Him and what HE KNOWS... then you cannot "KNOW" Him.
Actually, our experience in life (which
IS CHRIST --
John 14:6) is part of the TEACHING which arrives at the KNOWLEDGE of GOD...
Not only the
WORDS which are in the Scriptures are that which relate to KNOWING God, Lefien...
LIFE itself, is a teacher, Lefein for
CHRIST is
LIFE --
John 14:6 -- And you shall have many things to learn that only the EXPERIENCE of a
LIFETIME shall teach you, ...of Him.
Quote from: willieHSorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift"
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMBetter to be an "atheist" who knows the true God, than a "theist" who pretends to know him by attributing all manner of silliness to him. God is not a clown who does tricks at a divine circus by proving that he can make stones into bread. He simply will not use his power to prove such a point.
I have known many here in my seven+ years at TM... and as I remember, it has been only YOU which has suggested such things, Lefein. And it is likely due to your inhibited perception of GOD that produces such derogatory words toward the Holy Father,
YHVH... He knows me well... and He and I together, have faced death several times through the course of my life, and yet here I AM... In that course, I have never written such tainted and DISRESPECTFUL words for others to view, in association with HIM... as you have just written in the quote above. :pitiful:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMAnd if I may dare say, by your own theology of God's declarations being Absolute; God himself said that he cannot lie, and therefore it is not that he "can" lie, because straight out of the very mouth of God he has spoken as an unchanging, absolute truth;
"I - God - Can'Not - Lie"
That means, it is thoroughly, absolutely, infinitely, and always shall be - impossible. Most especially, according to the theology you seem to hold to.
"
Seem" is the operative word in your quote, Lefein... You do not recognize my belief, for you are VEILED of it. And only vanity arouses your words toward me, corresponding to that veiling. Men often strike out at what they do not understand... it is not an unusual characteristic in humans.
It is actually somewhat humorous... :laughing7: You contrive a writing which poses me to say that GOD could LIE, when I said that HIS CHOICE to be TRUTH (He's God, no one is His counselor --
Isaiah 40:13) -- that GOD chooses NOT to LIE, and is UNCHANGING means that BY CHOICE He cannot Lie for it is HIS CHOICE which is UNCHANGING.
No "external" being counsels or advises Him... nor can anything MADE by Him, influence Him or HIS CHOICES.
That the SCRIPTURE notes that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD... does not disinclude ANYTHING. Again, IGNORE if you must... while letting REASON and LOGIC escape your experience in doing so. :pitiful:
Quote from: willieHGOD is ABLE to do anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMSo for all practical purposes; it is impossible, because the unchanging God cannot change so drastically as to negate his entire omnipresent, omniscient, all-time-dwelling, all-place-dwelling self by lying at any single moment in the entirety of his infinite existence.
It is rendered IMPOSSIBLE only because He has rendered it IMPOSSIBLE by His own CHOICE to do so... I have already given you an example you purposely ignore.
You are (I assume), NOT a MURDERER are you Lefein? And this is not a manifestation of YOU, because you are UNABLE to MURDER, ...it is a manifestation of YOU, ...because YOU CHOOSE not to MURDER. :dontknow:
On an INFINITELY larger scope, ...the same is applicable to TRUTH...
TRUTH cannot LIE and remain TRUTH... not because it is UNABLE to perform that which could be considered a "LIE"... but because in doing so, it would CEASE to remain TRUTH. It ain't that hard, bro. :dontknow:
Quote from: willieHThe Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "do"...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMApplied Calvinism.
More useless and misapplied labels which are intiated by you because you deduce others within your VEIL in hopes to exalt your own position -- which are actually a STRAWMAN which does not address the points discussed... Trying to establish that something/anything which disagrees with YOUR perception is therefore NOT TRUTH -- :laugh: -- Please! :mrflo:
Quote from: willieHYou are a human being which CAN (are able) murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
We however, unlike God - are full of sin, which God simply cannot do.
It is impossible for God to sin, it is impossible for God to lie.
GOD is the creator of the premise called SIN... do you KNOW what SIN is, Lefein? Though you would give it a much HARDER definition as do most RELIGIOUS theologians...
The word "
SIN" actually means
MISSING the MARK... Look it up... it might help you understand the "PROBLEM of EVIL" which is the topic we are to be discussing in this thread...
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMI don't quite care if a single interpretation of a verse in a book says that God can do the impossible (ludicrous more like, ludicrous and rootedly divided-unstable in his heart if he did so) - his omnipotence is not a license for ludicrous use of his power.
The verse
SAYS what it
SAYS, irregardless of your unwillingness to accept what it
SAYS. And all the fancily self esteemed words you might try to
poetically string together, ...shall not CHANGE what it
SAYS.
And it doesn't matter whether "YOU CARE" or not. Why do you make every discussion about >>>YOU<<< Lefein? :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 09:44:59 PMIt is not possible for God to lie, but God can do what is impossible for men to do. And if I recall...it is impossible for men not to lie. What man can't do, God can; He is powerful enough that he cannot lie.
:blahgreen: :blah: ...and oh yeah.... :blahgreen:
...willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 11:23:10 PM
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Looking at the forest... failing to see the trees... :sigh:
I completely agree that it did not enter into the MIND of
YHVH to
command them, so He did not
command them...
He however FOREKNEW and
DECLARED that they would DISOBEY, ...so they DID disobey... :laughing7:
...willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2010, 11:23:10 PM
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
But it had to have entered their mind. God's mind could not think a thought like that, but the way God made the mind of man to work, that thought to burn their sons, was bound to come forth; perhaps one cannot accept that God is the one who will cause the circumstance for the out come; even to allow mans mind to have thoughts like burning their sons and carrying it out. If one believes that Jehovah God is not aware of what He created and how His creation will think and do, then they have not considered the ways of God. His ways and thoughts are far above ours, and He will not come down to mans low thought process (earthy/natural). We must come up to His (heavenly and of the Spirit.)
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 11:24:27 PM
God bless you from olam, to olam, and beyond Molly. :thumbsup:
edited
There is only ONE ETERNITY -- and men travel FROM eternity... TO the FAR COUNTRY [time]... returning to ETERNITY...
Luke 15:11-12 (
eternity) ------>
Luke 15:13-18 (
time) ----->
Luke 15:20-32 (
eternity)
...willieH :laughing7:
You mock even my blessings toward a dear sister [edited]
This is a 3 parter :bigGrin:
1. Easy guys. This topic is flammable enough. Let's try to keep it open. (You know what I'm talking about :HeartThrob:)
2. I did some checking. Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar :pointlaugh: :LH: I had to do some research.
In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.
I found this, first of all, from the NT;
"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.
II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";
Strong's - lying spirit, spirit of deceit, Young's "spirit of falsehood"
1Kings 22:22 And said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil against thee.
3. Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND" :director: LOL;
I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing. I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.
"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2010, 12:34:19 AM
This is a 3 parter :bigGrin:
1. Easy guys. This topic is flammable enough. Let's try to keep it open. (You know what I'm talking about :HeartThrob:)
2. I did some checking. Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar :pointlaugh: :LH: I had to do some research.
In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.
I found this, first of all, from the NT;
"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.
II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";
Strong's - lying spirit, spirit of deceit, Young's "spirit of falsehood"
1Kings 22:22 And said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil against thee.
How can a God who cannot lie put a lying spirit within a person?
A Christian believer: Because God can do the impossible
Reason: So that means God can be evil if he wants, perhaps torture people in hell for eternity
A christian beliver: Thats impossible for God is love
Reason: How do you know?
A christian believer: Because the scriptures say so
Reason: The scriptures also say he cannot lie
So if God or his agents are not the lying spirit whos the lying spirit?
3. Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND" LOL;
I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing. I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.
"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware
Why would it enter his mind?
Does a christian beliver meditate on what happens when a baby is thrown into the fire?
Or meditate on a solution on how to stop babies being thrown into the fire?
Also Where did God get this knowledge from, if he had it before this scripture occurence of people throwing babies in the fire?
I must be missing your point as it relates to my post, or maybe you're asking something I don't know the answer to.
Side note - this is a VERY interesting topic, especially when it's being discussed as is - respectfully, with consideration for each other. :thumbsup:
I read the passage in I Cor.? this morning about being of like mind, dwelling in unity...and I thought of this discussion. Maybe even though we see many things differently within the scriptures (we're all being processed and brought to maturity) we can still meet the "unity requirement" by discussing and even disagreeing, without being nasty or disagreeable. Just a thought...not to sidetrack from the discussion. :bigGrin:
" 'Listen to the Lord's message, all of you people of Judah. You always come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 The God of Israel is speaking to you. He is the Lord who rules over all. He says, "Change the way you live and act. Then I will let you live in this place.
4 " ' "Do not trust in lies. Do not say, 'This is the temple of the Lord! This is the temple of the Lord! This is the temple of the Lord!'
5 " ' "You must really change the way you live and act. Treat each other fairly. 6 Do not treat outsiders or widows badly in this place. Do not take advantage of children whose fathers have died. Do not kill those who are not guilty of doing anything wrong. Do not worship other gods. That will only bring harm to you.
7 " ' "If you obey me, I will let you live in this place. It is the land I gave your people who lived long ago. It was promised to them for ever and ever.
8 " ' "But look! You are trusting in worthless lies.
9 " ' "You continue to steal and commit murder. You commit adultery and tell lies. You burn incense to Baal. You worship other gods you have not known anything about before.
10 " ' "Then you come and stand in front of me. You keep coming to this house where I have put my Name. You say, 'We are safe.' You think you are safe when you do so many things I hate. 11 My Name is in this house. But you have made it a den for robbers! I have been watching you!" announces the Lord.
12 " ' "Go now to the town of Shiloh. Go to the place where I first made a home for my Name. See what I did to it because of the evil things my people Israel were doing.
13 " ' "I spoke to you again and again," announces the Lord. "I warned you while you were doing all of those things. But you did not listen. I called out to you. But you did not answer. 14 So what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house where my Name is. It is the temple you trust in. It is the place I gave to you and your people of long ago.
15 " ' "But I will throw you out of my land. That is exactly what I did to the people of Ephraim. And they are your relatives." '
16 "Jeremiah, do not pray for those people. Do not make any appeal or request for them. Do not beg me. I will not listen to you.
17 "Don't you see what they are doing? They are worshiping other gods in the towns of Judah. They are offering sacrifices to them in the streets of Jerusalem. 18 The children go out and gather wood. The fathers light the fire. The women mix the dough. They make flat cakes of bread for the goddess who is called the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods. That makes me very angry.
19 "But am I the one they are hurting?" announces the Lord. "Aren't they only harming themselves? They should be ashamed of it."
20 So the Lord and King says, "I will pour out my burning anger on this place. It will strike people and animals alike. It will destroy the trees and the crops in the fields. It will burn, and no one will be able to put it out."
21 The Lord who rules over all is the God of Israel. He says, "Go ahead! Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices. Eat the meat yourselves! 22 When I brought your people out of Egypt, I spoke to them. But I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 I also gave them another command. I said, 'Obey me. Then I will be your God. And you will be my people. Live the way I command you to live. Then things will go well with you.'
24 "But they did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. Instead, they did what their stubborn and evil hearts wanted them to do. They went backward and not forward.
25 "Again and again I sent my servants the prophets to you. They came to you day after day. They prophesied from the time your people left Egypt until now.
26 "But the people did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. They were stubborn. They did more evil things than their people who lived before them.
27 "Jeremiah, when you tell them all of that, they will not listen to you. When you call out to them, they will not answer.
28 "So say to them, 'You are a nation that has not obeyed the Lord your God. You did not pay attention when you were corrected. Truth has died out. You do not tell the truth anymore.' "
29 The Lord says to the people of Jerusalem, "Cut off your hair. Throw it away. Sing a song of sadness on the bare hilltops. I am very angry with you. I have turned my back on you. I have deserted you.
The Valley of Death
30 "The people of Judah have done what is evil in my eyes," announces the Lord. "They have set up statues of their gods. They have worshiped them in the house where my Name is. They have made my house 'unclean.' I hate those statues. 31 The people have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. There they worship other gods. And there they sacrifice their children in the fire. That is something I did not command. It did not even enter my mind.
32 "So watch out!" announces the Lord. "The days are coming when people will not call it Topheth anymore. And they will not call it the Valley of Ben Hinnom either. Instead, they will call it the Valley of Death. They will bury the dead bodies of some people in Topheth. But they will run out of room. 33 Then they will not be able to bury the bodies of other people there. So the bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the wild animals. And no one will scare them away.
34 "I will put an end to the sounds of joy and gladness. The voices of brides and grooms will not be heard anymore. There will not be any sounds of joy in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem. The land will become a desert.
--Jer 7
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 12:18:57 AM
You mock even my blessings toward a dear sister [edited]
I did not mock Molly whatsoever... I love her as a sister in
CHRIST... :HeartThrob:
She and I have many agreements and/or disagreements over YEARS of interaction... and I hold much respect toward her :boyheart:
I just pointed out that in "seeing", she was not observing what was stated in the
WORD... that is all...
And as far as "mocking" goes... you are hardly one to talk... :rolleye:
Just review MOST of your words toward me... As I said, you would do well to give
EAR to your own advice at times... :JCThink:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2010, 01:04:38 AM
I must be missing your point as it relates to my post, or maybe you're asking something I don't know the answer to.
God is very angry in this passage. His people are doing something that makes his skin crawl, for lack of a better phrase. It is such an abomination to him that it cannot even enter his heart.
Now you don't get angry with a puppet. You don't get angry when a small child does something that they are too young to understand [or you shouldn't]. You get angry when people who should know better do abominable things over and over that set your teeth on edge.
If it were me, I would just wipe them off the face of the earth. He considers this himself a few times, and does it once. Where he gets the patience is beyond me.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. --Gen 6
Thanks Mol for the input. "repented" in that verse also has a possible translation along the lines of "sorrow", or "having sadness" (from memory, not looking it up right now. I'm at work, can't you tell? :laughing7:. I am having to run off from time to time). I for one don't think God "experiments" or tries and fails so has to re-do.
Seems to me the scriptures about YHWH sending the lying spirit are important in understanding.
One thought I have on that, along with the passages you posted is, of course God wants people to believe the truth - when it's their time and within His will for them to do so. (I recall Jesus hiding the truth from the masses, speaking to them so they wouldn't understand and turn - for that time being - at least that's my current understanding. Also, "it's the glory of God to conceal a matter"). So Him commanding certain people to believe and have the truth [I believe He even has to give the faith to believe (Eph. 2:8] while using other vessels of dishonor for a period (even for punishment/discipline?) to work a greater purpose, IMO, don't necessarily conflict with each other.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm exploring and seeking.
for it repenteth me that I have made them.
He's sorry he created man. Yes he's expressing sadness. The interesting thing about God is that he shares a lot of our emotions about things. He's not, ho hum these people are doing exactly what I programmed them to do--everything's going according to plan. He's angry, and sad, and disappointed, in this passage and in the other one.
"repenteth"
H5162
נחם
nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one's self], repent (-er, -ing, self).
The lying spirit --God is bringing judgment on the king. That's all that's about. So all his 400 prophets tell the king lies, and the one who tells the truth he puts in jail. Nice guy. lol
Good post. :thumbsup: I like your point about God's emotions. That's important, IMO. I personally need to know that He weeps with us, not just stands back and watches. He came here and "did this". Praise Him.
As far as the last part, I don't disagree with you. But aren't you saying, yes, God sent that lying spirit just like the scriptures say He did? Or am I misunderstanding?
If He did, and I believe the Bible says He did, then my point is, I believe there's more to the story than what much of orthodoxy teaches, including things I've understood/misunderstood along the way -and if so, then what are the details of that "story" and what does it mean?
It means for me, bottom line, that God is only good and perfect. Then we get into definitions and interpretations...
Did God actually send a lying spirit to the prophets of the king or is Michaiah being sarcastic with the king when he says that? :dontknow:
There is a lot of sarcasm coming from Michaiah, who starts off the conversation with oh sure king you will be victorious. :mblush:
So I don't really know [yet] whether Michaiah is actually relating a vision he saw or whether he is continuing with the sarcasm.
What he finally does tell the king is, all your prophets are lying to you and the truth is that this war will go badly for you.
And the king says, see? He never has anything good to say about me. Put him in jail. So the king was never really interested in the truth from God to begin with. He had already made up his own mind what he was going to do. And, the prophets that lied to him were better off than the one who told the truth.
:bigGrin: :scratchhead:
Maybe Michaiah knew what Paul said:
2Ti 2:4 (KJV) No man 3762 that warreth 4754 entangleth himself 1707 with the affairs 4230 of [this] life 979; that 2443 he may please 700 him who hath chosen him to be a soldier 4758 .
This teaches me I should keep out of politics to please God Whom I represent.
It appears that by this time "The School of the Prophets" had some sort of inside track with the king, enough so that all but one was displeasing to God.
Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2010, 12:10:32 AM
There is only ONE ETERNITY -- and men travel FROM eternity... TO the FAR COUNTRY [time]... returning to ETERNITY... Luke 15:11-12 (eternity) ------> Luke 15:13-18 (time) -----> Luke 15:20-32 (eternity)
...willieH :laughing7:
:cloud9: wow
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?
Paul, sorry it took me so long to get back to this question you ask. I had an appointment and had to leave for a while.
You ask if I thought it was a possibility that God could give me the desire to...murder, rape and so forth, can't remember the exact act you mentioned....Yes, it could be a possibility if God so desired but I do not believe he will simply because I have died with Christ and am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. I believe all things are possible with God but I know he is merciful, just, good, and he has chosen me from the foundation of the world.
So, what do you think?
CHB
I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.
it also sounds like applied calvinism...
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?
Paul, sorry it took me so long to get back to this question you ask. I had an appointment and had to leave for a while.
You ask if I thought it was a possibility that God could give me the desire to...murder, rape and so forth, can't remember the exact act you mentioned....Yes, it could be a possibility if God so desired but I do not believe he will simply because I have died with Christ and am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. I believe all things are possible with God but I know he is merciful, just, good, and he has chosen me from the foundation of the world.
So, what do you think?
CHB
I don't believe it is a possibility in that regaurd, if it truly is, your belief that he won't and your belief of being chosen is irrelevant. After all, if you have no control, then you have no control.
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 05:07:24 AM
I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.
it also sounds like applied calvinism...
Does what I said not apply to you also?
CHB
I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice. So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.
However, in playing along;
I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse. You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured. I'm one of God's worst sons. My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect. I am a chief amongst sinners.
Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts. He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 05:32:00 AM
I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice. So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.
However, in playing along;
I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse. You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured. I'm one of God's worst sons. My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect. I am a chief amongst sinners.
Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts. He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.
Same here. Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 12:05:19 AM
Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?
because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.
"The Morning Star" is the planet we call Venus. Ishtar was the same name of the book in the Bible: Esther. This was the pagan name given to Haddasah.
QuoteSame here. Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?
He does if he is giving other men the desire to do wickedness...and yet, not you. "Merely" because Christ sits at the right hand, and you are in him (not that Christ isn't important, he certainly is).
Hence, I used the term Applied Calvinism.
The idea that God invented vessels of honour, and vessels of dishonour, or rather the interpretation of what these vessels are - this interpretation that says God makes one person a living saint who can do no wrong, and the other a Mao Zedong is...well it is the same as Calvinism that says that God makes some people to go to Heaven, and the rest to burn forever in a very, very, very hot place of torture. Sin hurts the sinner, and so for God to make one person have a life of bliss, while the other (the vessel of dishonour) live a life that may as well be called Hell on Earth due to the self inflicted masochism of sin - is just another manifestation of Calvinism.
Any form of Calvinism makes God a respecter of persons, which is clearly against the scriptures. So I can only say; No, God does not have favourites. But I do believe, hard as it may seem, that he is indeed burning these things out of everyone (they just don't know it, reaping and sowing is also a form of God's all consuming fire), but I don't believe that the verse that talks about vessels of honour, and dishonour are about sinning, and I don't think God gives a man his wicked desires, just so he must burn them out of him as if it were all the man's fault.
I'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein. :laughing7:
Ah well, life sure is an interesting ride! :high5:
Doesn't it say of the SAME LUMP he makes vessels of honor and dishonor?
Quote from: Lefein
But I do believe, hard as it may seem, that he is indeed burning these things out of everyone (they just don't know it,
I agree with this. I believe this is done in their own time periods. Not everyone is being "burnt out" so to speak at the same time. That's why I said I am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father and I was predestined to be there before the foundation of the world, So is everyone else, just not at the same time.
CHB
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 06:23:12 AM
"Merely" because Christ sits at the right hand, and you are in him (not that Christ isn't important, he certainly is).
just shocking.
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2010, 06:38:28 AM
I'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein. :laughing7:
Ah well, life sure is an interesting ride! :high5:
Oops, didn't see your post jabcat until after I had posted.
QuoteI'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein.
I think my point was missed.
God isn't bound by our ideas of schedule. In his due time he will certainly purify man by trial, and tribulation - whether the consuming flame is in this life, or the next.
But all men are convicted by the fire of their conscience, which the Lord put in them. "judge what is right for yourselves" to do that would require the capacity to judge rightly, or wrongly - what we call conscience.
However, if we decide to ignore the conscience, and become hard to it...certainly after God's due time, we find ourselves not ignoring the bigger fire.
Everyone has a candle inside them that burns always - hence everyone is being burned at the same time.
But then there is the firestorm...should the candle prove to be put under a bushel.
QuoteDoesn't it say of the SAME LUMP he makes vessels of honor and dishonor?
Notice though that none of us have been set in the last firing, none of us have yet to be completed in the kiln.
And consider this; the same lump...Who is to say that is not a single individual? We all experience times of honour in the Lord's service, and times of dishonour in the Lord's service.
QuoteI agree with this. I believe this is done in their own time periods. Not everyone is being "burnt out" so to speak at the same time. That's why I said I am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father and I was predestined to be there before the foundation of the world, So is everyone else, just not at the same time.
I believe that there is more to the fire of God, than one. You might be predestined, but everyone walks, lives, works, eats, and even uses the toilet in the presence of God - who is an all consuming fire.
All have the candle, some stand on the shore before a fiery hurricane, others sail upon the molten sea of his purification. But all are in the midst of fire, his burning atmosphere the righteous air, yet the weather patterns of God's cleansing atmosphere are at his command to bring now, or then.
Quotejust shocking.
Pick up your stones, and walk away. I'll be genuine before my Father, before I stand a pretending liar in what I have to say. The Father loves my true heart, and I have not blasphemed here.
Not even Christ shall be used as a means to call God a father who plays favourites. God respects no man above another, not even if that man is in his very own son.
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 05:07:24 AM
I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.
it also sounds like applied calvinism...
sounds to
you... which amounts to one whole, opinion... :dontknow:
:Peace:
...willieH :winkgrin:
Quotesounds to you... which amounts to one whole, opinion...
Just like yours WillieH. Like me, all you have are interpretations, and opinions, and vague ideas of the truth. :laughing7:
As much as I may be wearing a veil...so too are you wearing a veil. We both look through the glass darkly. :dsunny:
So if you would please, mind your beam, while I try and remove this splinter of mine as I look in this mirror, which is still a little harder to see that I had hoped - considering there is a little bit of something in my eye... :boyheart:
:Peace:
The beam is something with which some build a house.
Recently, in a dream about being taken by the pilot in his small but powerful jet fighter, it seemed we were near the mouth of the Mississippi River, where it empties into the gulf. We put down with only about 28 percent of the way left to go. He went to pee and so did I when he came out. Someone came in and I couldn't finish, having about a third (28%?) left to go. I decided I could hold it until ater. I went to catch the pilot and a girl at the bar, not looking at me, acting jealous, pushed some folded money toware me, saying what the pilot had told her to tell me:
"If you can't keep up, you can't go up." Then, just as I heard the jet ignite, I woke up.
We need to keep up with what God is doing or we are left behind. If our character is not adequate then we cannot enter into the greater glory that awaits us. Even Jesus had to go through death and hades in order to obtain the keys to death and hades, triumphing over him who had the power of death, taking that power for his own.
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2010, 12:34:19 AM
2. I did some checking. Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar :pointlaugh: :LH: I had to do some research.
In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.
I found this, first of all, from the NT;
"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.
II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";
Strong's - lying spirit, spirit of deceit, Young's "spirit of falsehood"
1Kings 22:22 And said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil against thee.
To me all the above means God plays an active role in deception. In Job we see God also sends a spirit of illness and bad fortune.
We are also veiled. Who did veil us?
Quote3. Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND" :director: LOL;
I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing. I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.
"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware
No free will references James :wacko2:
I think it gives us little info for this topic. In the OT God never punishes instantly. Then after a while He acts and corrects things. So eventually His will always overrules. Sodom didn't become evil instantly. They were evil for a long period of time before God destroyed it. Destroyed it with fire. Including childeren. Is that so different from the Molech worshippers?
:sigh:
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 07:22:47 AM
Quote from: willieHsounds to you... which amounts to one whole, opinion...
Just like yours willieH. Like me, all you have are interpretations, and opinions, and vague ideas of the truth. :laughing7:
The Scriptures SAY what they SAY... and you are not able to answer my post to you because religion blocks your way...
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 07:22:47 AMAs much as I may be wearing a veil...so too are you wearing a veil. We both look through the glass darkly. :dsunny:
Yet another manifestation of the method of which you are so fond: the ..."I know you are, but what am I", response method... you obviously think to be quite effective, eh? :laughing7:
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 07:22:47 AMSo if you would please, mind your beam, while I try and remove this splinter of mine as I look in this mirror, which is still a little harder to see that I had hoped - considering there is a little bit of something in my eye...
[Mod edit]
I do not EVER mind admitting that I have things to LEARN... I am anxiously expectant of
any new revealings, ...as I seek the pathway, which He has outlined for me --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- containing new revealings which
YHVH, according to HIS WILL and DECLARATION, has noted I shall be availed... :boogie:
I believe that once you and I have arrived at our individual conclusions, ...you shall be quite surprised at which of the 2 of us (in this moment) was really dealing with a "beam"... :laughhand:
That which you "believe" at present, ...I have been EXPOSED to, and associated with, for EXTENDED periods of time (maybe even longer than you have been ...alive!) And have, due to TRUTHFUL revelations within that TIME, due to HIS decison in conjunction with devoted study --
Jer 29:14 -- have since abandoned them...
Really, ...the only difference between us (because we are both quite fervently immersed in our faith) ...is likely I have been looking MUCH LONGER than you, and have had
much more opportunity to discover the treasures which are available to be found...
This does not necessarily mean I know more about Scripture than do you, ...(though that is also very likely), ...but as far as LIFE teachings... There is little doubt! :thumbsup:
Until you admit how old (or more likely YOUNG) you really are, Lefein... we shall not know for sure how much LIFE learning you are (possibly) without. :winkgrin:
Maybe such a question intimidates you... eh? :dunno: ...Guess we'll see if ...
it do or it don't... :laughing7:
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2010, 07:52:43 AM
The beam is something with which some build a house.
Recently, in a dream about being taken by the pilot in his small but powerful jet fighter. It seemed we were near the mouth of the Mississippi River, where it empties into the gulf. We put down with only about 28 percent of the way left to go. He went to pee and so did I when he came out. Someone came in and I couldn't finish, having about a third (28%?) left to go. I decided I could hold it until ater. I went to catch the pilot and a girl at the bar, not looking at me, acting jealous, pushed some folded money toware me, saying what the pilot had told her to tell me:
"If you can't keep up, you can't go up." Then, just as I heard the jet ignite, I woke up.
We need to keep up with what God is doing or we are left behind. If our character is not adequate then we cannot enter into the greater glory that awaits us. Even Jesus had to go through death and hades in order to obtain the keys to death and hades, triumphing over him who had the power of death, taking that power for his own.
:cloud9: Interesting dream.....thanks for posting it. It pointed something out to me I hadn't really considered before concerning part of a vision I shared I had about light going really fast, gradually becoming darkness, then gradually speeding up again in increments. It was going faster and faster as it became light again. He spoke to me I had just witnessed the creation. What didn't hit me until I read your dream, is that it was going FASTER in increments, returning to Spirit/light. We are part of that darkness, and He IS moving faster ever increasingly as we approach our destiny. Blessings.....
:cloud9: @ WW.....some very good points.
:cloud9: A point to ponder.........God created us with the capacity (call it what you will) to sin. Paul talked about the very problem of doing what he didn't want to do and sin being in his members being the problem. So point is; He created us with the capacity, knowing that sin would raise up in our members as well, to disobey ANY law, any word He spoke, just by virtue of the fact He spoke it.
Now since He created us that way, would He not have to also take responsibility for what HE did in creating us that contributed directly to the inability to NOT sin? I think He did, by the Lamb slain from the beginning, BUT to teach us all the things that He IS, He had display what He is NOT, for "contrast". This is where He subjected us to hope, ie. placing us in a lowered position, knowing the outcome would be exactly opposite of what He spoke, even if it was only in our hearts to do evil......which was to let us know by EXPERIENCE, that we need a Savior. My :2c:
Quote from: wwTo me all the above means God plays an active role in deception. In Job we see God also sends a spirit of illness and bad fortune.
We are also veiled. Who did veil us?
Take another look at the 1kings 22 passage and see if you think the prophet might be being sarcastic with the king. Instead of saying, they are lying their heads off to you, king, he tells the king this elaborate vision he has of the Divine Council and God sending the lying spirit who volunteers to go and destroy the king through the mouths of his phoney prophets.
It's a veiled way of telling the king that his days are numbered if he proceeds with this war and the bad advice of his counselors. The prophets are just a bunch of cowards who are telling the king what they know he wants to hear. Doesn't that happen even today?
QuoteWe are also veiled. Who did veil us?
We see that the disciples themselves are veiled before the death of Jesus because this body we live in is a veil. Peter is clueless. Judas is a thief. Mostly they don't understand a word that he says. When he rises from the dead, they are all astounded, and don't believe it, even though he has told them before, many times, what was going to happen.
But Jesus is always patient and kind with the veiled, with only a few exceptions.
But, when your time is up with God, it's up. His patience with evil eventually wears out. There comes a point where those who don't repent are cut down.
I think the difference between the disciples and others is not their brilliance or their ability to see through the veil, but the relationship they have with Jesus,-- they love him and wait on him--and love covers a multitude of sins.
Quote from: Lefein
And consider this; the same lump...Who is to say that is not a single individual? We all experience times of honour in the Lord's service, and times of dishonour in the Lord's service.
This is what I was trying to point out.
And everyone is destined to become all in all in the end but not everyone is destined to understand certain things now. Even Jesus told his deciples that they were given to understand but to the rest it was not.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 11:19:01 PM
Now I see that free will does cause confusion. My idea of free will is not the same as yours, so for clarifacation when I mean free will I mean freedom of choice, not freedom to be God.
? I never even considered free will can mean 'freedom to be God' ....
QuoteAdam and Eve could have been happy in the garden by choosing the tree of life instead of the tree of Good and evil,
I don't agree. If they can't resist that tree it means there life without it wasn't complete.
Quotethey would have lived for thousands of years enjoying the peace of the garden.
That's something you can't know. Perhaps they would have left later anyway because they got bored or God had another task for them. Or all went according to plan.
QuoteBut that was not enough for Adam and Eve, they wanted more than to be happy, they wanted to be wise,
It means they were not completly happy. The feeling of missing knowledge was strong/unpleasant.
Quoteas God, this is often the case today. People have oppportuities every day to be happy, but they choose to be miserable and often in an effort to maintain their misery deny they even had an opportunity to be happy, in order to reinforce their own misery.
Some may have that choice. But for many life is hard. They have not much choice in most things.
QuoteIf happyness is fake, it does not satisfy.
Then it was not complete happyness.
QuoteGod and the devil don't work as a team, simply that they both know that God is higher in authority. They are on the opposites sides of morality. One is love the other is selfishness.
Read Job. They work as a team. God acts as the team leader/boss.
Satan asks if he may test/destroy Job in who God could not find fault. God could have refused satan's request. But He didn't. He even set out some guidelines as a team leader.
I know it sounds weird. But lets face it. Satan asked permission. God agreed.
QuoteThey are not ying and yang for ying and yang are complimentary and exist for eternity. The devil is temporary and so is evil, for this reason the son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Future creations will not have to go through death like we have, if God created evil though it means future creations will have to go through evil, for that knowledge is still in existence if God does not destroy it.
I can agree with that but still my observation stands that God granted Satan's request.
QuoteNde is challenging, it means we were in heaven or reincarnate on this earth plane over again for different experiences to overcome.
The NDEs don't speak of 'over and over again'. However they indicate that most people can't even come near to God in Heaven. They have to grow/learn.
QuoteIf this is true it does not change anything, other than some spirit beings might want to experience this temporary darkness and overcome it with love,
To overcome darkness you hav eto experience darkness. To experience darkness it has to be 'provided'.
Quotea challenge... if you like, for these beings, but it does not mean that God created evil, simply they are taking advantage of this fallen state while it is availalble in this temporary drip, drop of eternity, maybe they are testing to see how far Love can really go. But who these beings are and how this process works is a different story.
You speak about spirits, beings and they. But in reality (if the NDE is correct) they are WE.
Fallen state/dip/drop/etc. Who provided all that?
Don't you think light has great significance? I think it has. And after cutting of that light it can't be expected things stay the same.
Maybe it's one of those topics that will never reach agreement. For me it's clear that God, let put it mildly, has a very active role in negativity. With or without very good reasons.
:2c:
Quote from: wwRead Job. They work as a team. God acts as the team leader/boss.
Satan asks if he may test/destroy Job in who God could not find fault. God could have refused satan's request. But He didn't. He even set out some guidelines as a team leader.
I know it sounds weird. But lets face it. Satan asked permission. God agreed.
I wouldn't exactly say they work as a team LOL.
The book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible.
We are getting here a glimpse of the Divine Council of which Satan was a member before he was kicked out of heaven by Michael.
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. --Job 1
So who are these ben elohiym ['sons of God'] who make up this council? They aren't human, that's for sure. We are told in the New Testament that Satan is the god of this aion. [2Cor 4:4] So they are gods. If you accept this one detail, it changes how you perceive everything.
Or, you can just ignore it, spiritualize it, or dismiss it.
But our God is the Supreme Being. He is bragging on his servant Job, and Satan challenges him, so he allows Satan to try to prove his premise that Job is not perfect in his ways and righteous. But, he puts boundaries on Satan, because ultimately Satan has no power except what God allows.
Paul tells us that we are a living 'theater'--that the drama that is going on here on this planet is being watched by the host of heaven. That we humans [the ekklesia] are revealing the plan of God to the heavenly host. It's kind of shocking the way he puts it. And, here you thought you were just trying to muddle through your life. :laughing7:
Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 02:43:52 PM
And everyone is destined to become all in all in the end but not everyone is destined to understand certain things now. Even Jesus told his deciples that they were given to understand but to the rest it was not.
:cloud9: Exactly....yet if man had his way, in our day and age, they'd sue Him for "discrimination"...... :laughing7:
Cardinal you are so right.
Lefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob? Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.
CHB
:cloud9: I think it means that all men are the same in HIS eyes, ie. flesh, but He is still at "liberty" to do with them according to His perfect will for the individual, AND His ultimate plan. Potter and the clay.....the ultimate plan for the corporate whole is "greater" than the plan for the individuals, but it's very hard for us to look at the big picture and not be offended in Him........not so hard for Him......
It's the difference in perceiving laying down our life for Him, and realizing that we are going to have to lay down our lives for the others. Pressing into Him that we might attain the high calling in Christ Jesus, FOR THE OTHERS, means that we walk in acceptance of WHATEVER He brings our way, knowing that ultimately it will bring the greater good into manifestation.....though He slay me, yet will I love Him.....this is drinking of His cup......my :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.
I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.
And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil. And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.
It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.
This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate. We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good. And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.
If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible. What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?
Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold. Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.
It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite. People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine. People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;
"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them :cloud9: :HeartThrob: "
That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".
Should I blindly trust such a god? Should I accept him as my father? Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?
Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.
You say above:
"
I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."
I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:
I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality. So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it. It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.Consider who is in charge here:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity. Vanity is sin. God has bound everyone over to disobedience. Disobedience is sin.
There is your answer Lefein.
Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level. Yes rape is bad. Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.
Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lefein on November 07, 2010, 03:58:47 AM
If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.
If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do. Thank you in advance.
Here is an interesting (relatively short) article that may help:
The Purpose of Evil by Guy Marks
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/evil.htm
From the opening paragraph:
But evil is not a problem with God, though it has been a great problem with the theologians. God uses evil to accomplish His purpose. I remember when our daughter was born and what an evil thing the doctor did to that little baby, for no sooner was she born than the doctor gave her a resounding slap. Now she certainly did not deserve to be treated like that. What do you think of a full-grown man striking a tiny, new-born babe? If I had not known what the doctor's purpose was, I would have been ready to strike him. But you see, the evil was necessary at the very beginning of our daughter's life, and produced the results the doctor wanted. And so it is with God, for evil begins with Him and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose.--
What seems to us like evil on pure physical level - is actually being worked for good on the spiritual evil. Just like slapping a baby in itself would be considered evil - but when the purpose is known we see it is for good.
And I'm not trying to say we can do evil because its actually good - or anything like that. Woe to those who call evil good...
But what God is doing is using evil as a tool for a much greater pure good. A good example is Joseph and his 12 brothers. God intended the evil that the brothers did to happen - so that much good would come from it. God intended that Joseph's brothers try to kill him, and throw him into slavery instead - all so that Joseph could eventually later (much later) come back to save His brother's entire country. I think the brothers would have learned invaluable lessons, no?
That is how God works.
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 07:15:57 PM
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.
You say that we can only learn a certain way.
So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.
So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way. The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.
Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things. They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.
God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something. However spiritually it is a supreme strength.
I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice. I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.
And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone. Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.
I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.
willlieH: Hi Legoman! :cloud9:
Long time no see! Hope you have been well!
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 07:15:57 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.
I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.
And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil. And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.
It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.
This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate. We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good. And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.
If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible. What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?
Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold. Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.
It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite. People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine. People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;
"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them :cloud9: :HeartThrob: "
That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".
Should I blindly trust such a god? Should I accept him as my father? Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?
Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.
You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."
I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:
I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality. So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it. It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.
Consider who is in charge here:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity. Vanity is sin. God has bound everyone over to disobedience. Disobedience is sin.
There is your answer Lefein.
Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level. Yes rape is bad. Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.
Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
Just an excellent post brother L... excellent! (7 thumbsup!) :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: -- and ----->
...willieH :thumbsup:
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 09, 2010, 07:43:55 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 07:15:57 PM
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.
You say that we can only learn a certain way.
So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.
So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way. The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.
Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things. They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.
God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something. However spiritually it is a supreme strength.
I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice. I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.
And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone. Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.
I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.
I think we are in agreement Phaze?
God is limited in the sense that He cannot do the illogical. Certain things MUST BE a certain way.
He cannot make a square circle.
He cannot make 2+2=5** (** some mathies like to joke that 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 - its funny but its nonsense).
And He cannot make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it.
These concepts in themselves are illogical - atheists like to use these questions to "prove" God cannot exist - but they are really trick questions based on something illogical. Now to tie it in with the topic of the OP.
How can one learn what goodness is without also understanding what evil is? How can one understand why LOVE is good, without also understanding what non-LOVE is? It is a logical impossibility.
So in the same way that God cannot make a rock so big He cannot even lift it - He ALSO cannot teach what LOVE is without also giving us an experience of evil.
You worded it a bit better than me Phaze when you say God did not make a "choice" to create evil - as if implying there was another way to teach us what was required to be taught so we would have full knowledge of the truth and come to be in His image of LOVE. There is simply no other way. It MUST BE this way.
Our faith and hope is that God will redeem us from this bondage and bring us to this full knowledge of the truth. And that is what the second part of those verses I posted earlier say:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience
so that he may have mercy on them all.We would not even know what hope is if there was nothing to hope for...
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 05:51:40 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 05:32:00 AM
I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice. So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.
However, in playing along;
I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse. You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured. I'm one of God's worst sons. My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect. I am a chief amongst sinners.
Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts. He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.
Same here. Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?
CHB
What is Gods will right now for the world?
Is not to be saved?
Is it Gods will to steal thief and destroy?
Please take your time in answering that
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 07:15:57 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.
I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.
And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil. And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.
It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.
This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate. We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good. And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.
If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible. What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?
Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold. Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.
It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite. People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine. People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;
"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them :cloud9: :HeartThrob: "
That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".
Should I blindly trust such a god? Should I accept him as my father? Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?
Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.
You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."
I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:
I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality. So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it. It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.
Consider who is in charge here:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity. Vanity is sin. God has bound everyone over to disobedience. Disobedience is sin.
There is your answer Lefein.
Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level. Yes rape is bad. Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.
Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 08:14:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 09, 2010, 07:43:55 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 07:15:57 PM
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.
You say that we can only learn a certain way.
So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.
So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way. The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.
Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things. They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.
God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something. However spiritually it is a supreme strength.
I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice. I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.
And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone. Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.
I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.
I think we are in agreement Phaze?
God is limited in the sense that He cannot do the illogical. Certain things MUST BE a certain way.
He cannot make a square circle.
He cannot make 2+2=5** (** some mathies like to joke that 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 - its funny but its nonsense).
And He cannot make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it.
These concepts in themselves are illogical - atheists like to use these questions to "prove" God cannot exist - but they are really trick questions based on something illogical. Now to tie it in with the topic of the OP.
How can one learn what goodness is without also understanding what evil is? How can one understand why LOVE is good, without also understanding what non-LOVE is? It is a logical impossibility.
So in the same way that God cannot make a rock so big He cannot even lift it - He ALSO cannot teach what LOVE is without also giving us an experience of evil.
You worded it a bit better than me Phaze when you say God did not make a "choice" to create evil - as if implying there was another way to teach us what was required to be taught so we would have full knowledge of the truth and come to be in His image of LOVE. There is simply no other way. It MUST BE this way.
Our faith and hope is that God will redeem us from this bondage and bring us to this full knowledge of the truth. And that is what the second part of those verses I posted earlier say:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
We would not even know what hope is if there was nothing to hope for...
In that I agree, it is the nature of things and how it must be. The assertion often is that God is all powerful so he did not actually have to do that. But the premise is false. The true premise is that we must get past what appears to be limitations of God and realize that some things must be because that is the nature of things and it cannot be any other way and that it is a supreme glory of righteousness of nature NOT of a choice "rationalized" as righteous based on a false premise.
willieH: Hi sister C... :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PMCardinal you are so right.
She (Card) does have much insight, doesn't she sister Charlotte! :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PMLefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob?
Here is my :2c: about this (God being IMPARTIAL)...
It is HIS PURPOSE which is being fulfilled... and therefore the steps and elements that HE decides shall be utilized in the accomplishment of that PURPOSE are utilized without regard to them concerning "their observation" of the PURPOSE being accomplished --
Rom 9:20This whole thing (the creation and History of man)
AND Eternity is about
YHVH... and absolutely NOT about us. For if not for Him... there IS no "us"... :nod:
"Us" whining about OUR part in His agenda (the unfolding of HIS PURPOSE)... is nothing but VANITY which actively proceeds from us. :sigh:
For the PURPOSE results in
ALL obtaining EQUALITY from Him --
1 Cor 15:28 That you nor I was "chosen" to be PAUL or PETER, does not mean that
YHVH favored them over you and I... He decided each part of the PUZZLE as equally important (regardless of the "parts" objections)...
In order for the PUZZLE to be ...
COMPLETE... ALL pieces no matter HOW small or trivial in contribution, must be present in order for the PUZZLE to
BE complete.
EXAMPLE --- Kind of like a football team -- God chooses PAUL to be the quarterback which throws a touchdown to PETER, as the rest of us "blockers" are and remain, quietly anonymous.
But the TRUTH is that, ...the "touchdown" would NEVER have been COMPLETED unless the "anonymous blockers" did what they did... and they were EVERY BIT as IMPORTANT as the 2 that got recognized in the game! :dontknow:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.
CHB
There IS sis... as I said... it is
not about ISRAEL or Abraham, or Moses, or Peter or Paul or CHB or Card or White Wings, or Jabcat or Lefein or Thinktank, or Seth or reFormer, or the Pope or Hitler or Don Rickles or the Beatles or Taylor Swift, or your next door neighbor, or L. Ray Smith, or J. Preston Eby ,or Barack Obama, or the HOMELESS GUY or willieH...
It
is about...
:bowing: :bowing: :bowing: YHVH GOD, our LOVING Father :IloveU: who is LOVE :HeartThrob: and who shall BE ALL in ALL ----------> Forever! ----------------------------------> bringing ALL of us to ALL of us --------------> :cloud9: :laughing7: :happygrin: :winkgrin: :bigGrin: :grin: :boyheart: :Sparkletooth: :girlheart: :gangel: :bgdance: :dsunny: :reachout: :hiya: :friendstu: :2thumbs: :love4: :flowerred: :Gdance:
...willieH :boogie:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Amen bro... I have enjoyed your offerings in this discussion... :thumbsup:
The KNOWLEDGE of Evil as well as Good both find origination IN
YHVH... for they are ONE KNOWLEDGE together.
willieH :goodpost:
Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.
You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality. However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."
I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:
I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality. So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it. It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.
Consider who is in charge here:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity. Vanity is sin. God has bound everyone over to disobedience. Disobedience is sin.
There is your answer Lefein.
Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level. Yes rape is bad. Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.
Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.
Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean. He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.
That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience. It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE. I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually. Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.
I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.
I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.
God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.
God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.
The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.
Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness :mshock:
Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 05:51:40 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 09, 2010, 05:32:00 AM
I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice. So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.
However, in playing along;
I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse. You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured. I'm one of God's worst sons. My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect. I am a chief amongst sinners.
Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts. He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.
Same here. Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?
CHB
What is Gods will right now for the world?
Is not to be saved?
Is it Gods will to steal thief and destroy?
Please take your time in answering that
That all come to the knowledge of the truth.
CHB
which is?
Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2010, 08:30:16 PM
willieH: Hi sister C... :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PMCardinal you are so right.
She (Card) does have much insight, doesn't she sister Charlotte! :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PMLefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob?
Here is my :2c: about this (God being IMPARTIAL)...
It is HIS PURPOSE which is being fulfilled... and therefore the steps and elements that HE decides shall be utilized in the accomplishment of that PURPOSE are utilized without regard to them concerning "their observation" of the PURPOSE being accomplished -- Rom 9:20
This whole thing (the creation and History of man) AND Eternity is about YHVH... and absolutely NOT about us. For if not for Him... there IS no "us"... :nod:
"Us" whining about OUR part in His agenda (the unfolding of HIS PURPOSE)... is nothing but VANITY which actively proceeds from us. :sigh:
For the PURPOSE results in ALL obtaining EQUALITY from Him -- 1 Cor 15:28
That you nor I was "chosen" to be PAUL or PETER, does not mean that YHVH favored them over you and I... He decided each part of the PUZZLE as equally important (regardless of the "parts" objections)...
In order for the PUZZLE to be ...COMPLETE... ALL pieces no matter HOW small or trivial in contribution, must be present in order for the PUZZLE to BE complete.
EXAMPLE --- Kind of like a football team -- God chooses PAUL to be the quarterback which throws a touchdown to PETER, as the rest of us "blockers" are and remain, quietly anonymous.
But the TRUTH is that, ...the "touchdown" would NEVER have been COMPLETED unless the "anonymous blockers" did what they did... and they were EVERY BIT as IMPORTANT as the 2 that got recognized in the game! :dontknow:
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.
CHB
There IS sis... as I said... it is not about ISRAEL or Abraham, or Moses, or Peter or Paul or CHB or Card or White Wings, or Jabcat or Lefein or Thinktank, or Seth or reFormer, or the Pope or Hitler or Don Rickles or the Beatles or Taylor Swift, or your next door neighbor, or L. Ray Smith, or J. Preston Eby ,or Barack Obama, or the HOMELESS GUY or willieH...
It is about...
:bowing: :bowing: :bowing: YHVH GOD, our LOVING Father :IloveU: who is LOVE :HeartThrob: and who shall BE ALL in ALL ----------> Forever! ----------------------------------> bringing ALL of us to ALL of us --------------> :cloud9: :laughing7: :happygrin: :winkgrin: :bigGrin: :grin: :boyheart: :Sparkletooth: :girlheart: :gangel: :bgdance: :dsunny: :reachout: :hiya: :friendstu: :2thumbs: :love4: :flowerred: :Gdance:
...willieH :boogie:
willie, you are right and I repent in sackcloth and ashes.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 09:01:39 PM
which is?
That the world through Christ will be saved.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 08:49:29 PM
I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.
I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.
God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.
God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.
Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.
Quote
The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.
Is God just "taking advantage" of the badness in this world so he can teach us about goodness? How fortuitous this is for God - He really lucked out - this world let Him teach us about love... almost like He planned it that way :winkgrin:
Did God design things to be like this?:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Futility. Vanity. Disobedience. That is what God subjected us to.
Perhaps look at the list of verses WhiteWings posted above.
Quote
Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness :mshock:
Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us
I think you are missing a sense of proportion or scale here. Of course we do not send our kids to torture camps to learn about forgiveness. You cannot compare the sense of scale and control that God has with the amount of control a parent has. To put it simply, we are not God.
But we do let our kids play with the neighbor kids, and then when one of them hits the other one on the head and takes their toy, we step in and teach them that is wrong and teach them to say sorry.
Sometimes we have to let our kids fall down so they will learn to get up.
Sometimes we have to discipline our kids so they will learn what they have done is wrong.
To the child it may not seem "fair" that he has to stand in the corner, or say sorry, or endure a punishment - but it will achieve the desired results and that child will understand why it was necessary when he matures.
Most of mankind are spiritual babes, not understanding why they should do something or why certain things are necessary. The problem of evil is part of this. This is not milk, we are into the meat of the matter here. It takes time to digest.
dup
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 09:23:10 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 08:49:29 PM
I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.
I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.
God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.
God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.
Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.
Quote
The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.
Is God just "taking advantage" of the badness in this world so he can teach us about goodness? How fortuitous this is for God - He really lucked out - this world let Him teach us about love... almost like He planned it that way :winkgrin:
Did God design things to be like this?:
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Futility. Vanity. Disobedience. That is what God subjected us to.
Perhaps look at the list of verses WhiteWings posted above.
Quote
Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness :mshock:
Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us
I think you are missing a sense of proportion or scale here. Of course we do not send our kids to torture camps to learn about forgiveness. You cannot compare the sense of scale and control that God has with the amount of control a parent has. To put it simply, we are not God.
But we do let our kids play with the neighbor kids, and then when one of them hits the other one on the head and takes their toy, we step in and teach them that is wrong and teach them to say sorry.
Sometimes we have to let our kids fall down so they will learn to get up.
Sometimes we have to discipline our kids so they will learn what they have done is wrong.
To the child it may not seem "fair" that he has to stand in the corner, or say sorry, or endure a punishment - but it will achieve the desired results and that child will understand why it was necessary when he matures.
Most of mankind are spiritual babes, not understanding why they should do something or why certain things are necessary. The problem of evil is part of this. This is not milk, we are into the meat of the matter here. It takes time to digest.
Amen :thumbsup:
Quote from: thanktank
But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him.
If the devil has to have permission from God before he does anything, why do you think we don't?
CHB
Quote from: legoman on November 09, 2010, 09:23:10 PM
Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.
Let me interject something for a moment.
If Gods creation of us knowing our perfection is supremely set in stone must inlude evil as the "nature" of things and God coul;d not have created us any other way then we have to realize an important thing.
God having the power to stop evil might end in our destruction. Just as we have the power to rip open a butterflys cocoon as it is struggling to break free. We might believe it a compassionate act to rip open the cocoon and stop the suffering, but in righteousness we cannot because the butterfly MUST finish the process. Such is the nature of things and that nature is God and God does not change.
I think the premise that some come from is what I was talking about earlier. And that is God could not have created us to become one with him any other way. So this is not about God choosing to cause a rapist to rape when he could do something else, it is about man manifesting evil through the result of not being finished in the process yet.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 09:56:12 PM
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites.
Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it? If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.
ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD...
If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...
IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture... :nod:
I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.
Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod: For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain)
know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?
Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...
and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE as well as KNOWING that
He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...
He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation. :dontknow:
Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.
There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured... here are just a few:
1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.
willieH :cloud9:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do, then this scripture makes sense. He bounds and punishes his creation, then he lets them go and has mercy on them. A bit like saddam hussein who jails and tortures people and when he lets them go, considers it mercy.
But if you search this scripture with God being good then we know that in order for good to have mercy the people in question must have done something evil for God to chastize and punish them for their iniquity.
Our prayer is not God give me temptation, but rather God deliver us from temptation and the evil one for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and forever amen.
If this is a learning experince why does God give us a prayer that actively prays against such temptation.
The history of man is a dark and mysterious, no one really knows where we come from. Perhaps we are the heavenly host in rev 12 who have been cast down to earth by the dragon and because of our rebellion are now made subject to vanity, not willingly but by Him, so that he may have mercy upon us for our iniquity.
Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2010, 10:00:02 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 09:56:12 PM
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 08, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 08, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.
Yes, Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something. But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.
Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...
John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"
Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"
Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"
ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...
Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10
To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites.
Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it? If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.
ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...
IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture... :nod:
I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.
Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod: For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1
I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?
Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...
He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation. :dontknow:
Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.
There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured... here are just a few:
1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.
willieH :cloud9:
Thank you for the reply willie, very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.
So, in the effort to get some straight yes or no answers to these tough questions instead of apologetics, and work arounds, a series of questions I'd like yes/no to.
And I repeat for the sake of some who might protest saying; "Blah blah! You have no right to order us how to answer the way you want to answer!!!" No, I just want to have something legible I can ponder without having to wrestle with jargon, and interpretations, I am wanting to ascertain - Belief, not interpretation.
So please, forgive my insistence on yes or no...but it is for a "good purpose" after all...
This is a VOLUNTARY Survey. You are not obligated to answer it. But if you do choose to answer it - yes, or no. That will suffice.
___
God directly created all evil, and has caused all the wrongs in this world?
God is doing evil to us, creating evil towards us, having evil will toward us (the intent that we shall go through evil), and doing evil through us?
God Plays favourites?
God has a heart abundantly full of evil? - for God can create nothing that does not first exist in his being, his heart, his imaginations. Remember the scriptures, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks - God's voice is what creates; And God said "Let there be light, and there was light."
God blames man for his own evil doing?
God believes that the ends justify the means?
God gives no choice to man what so ever in their pre-determined fate to do evil, and nothing but - for all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. And then upon man doing his will - God punishes them?
The all knowing God puts us through evil of every kind as a "test" to overcome, so that in a perfect world where everything is supposedly good - we'll be able to...do what? Overcome the evil in the next life with all of this useless experience of being able to overcome evil? (this you may answer with more than a yes or no)
God can make a rock bigger than himself, that he cannot lift - he's ludicrously powerful?
God can lie - albeit indirectly?
God doesn't have to obey any of his own laws? "Do as I say, not as I do"
God expects us to be more righteous than him?
God is a god of works - we have to experience evil, even doing it in order to be perfect, rather than relying on Jesus' saving blood on the Cross?
God's heart is full of hate, lust, avarice, greed, lies, theft, covetousness, etc; having inventeda these? (acreated them - spoke them into being - devised them - brought them forth - expressed them into existence by some way, which would require that it was in his imagination)
God forgives us for him making us sin against him, and rebel against him without any form of autonomy or choice in the matter? God literally makes/forces us to punch him in the face (after having predetermined it), and then forgives us and/or punishes us for it?
God caused every one (or even some) of his children to experience pain, over-kill pain, pain not necessary for any remedial repentance, merely so we would "experience" it? IE: the heavenly father pulled down our pants and wailed on our backsides with a nail driven club just so we would know what it feels like.
God expects us to believe he is good, after he has abused us? Literally.
God is the god of Calvinism - just no "Eternal Damnation" doctrine. Hell is relocated on Earth instead, for all intents and purposes. (Applied Calvinism)
__ __ __
I want serious yes or no answers please, I don't want "Shut up Lefein! You're this, that, and other for asking us and wanting us to say yes or no!" (I've seen this sort of post before, so I say it ahead of time, answer the post of simply skip it if not...it is a little disappointing I even need to make the disclaimer in the first place.)
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do, then this scripture makes sense. He bounds and punishes his creation, then he lets them go and has mercy on them. A bit like saddam hussein who jails and tortures people and when he lets them go, considers it mercy.
But if you search this scripture with God being good then we know that in order for good to have mercy the people in question must have done something evil for God to chastize and punish them for their iniquity.
Our prayer is not God give me temptation, but rather God deliver us from temptation and the evil one for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and forever amen.
If this is a learning experince why does God give us a prayer that actively prays against such temptation.
The history of man is a dark and mysterious, no one really knows where we come from. Perhaps we are the heavenly host in rev 12 who have been cast down to earth by the dragon and because of our rebellion are now made subject to vanity, not willingly but by Him, so that he may have mercy upon us for our iniquity.
I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: thanktank
But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him.
If the devil has to have permission from God before he does anything, why do you think we don't?
CHB
What makes you think he asks God for permission?
Did he ask God permission to trick Adam and Eve?
Did he go before God to ask permission to destroy Job?
Why did he go before God concerning Job, what was his original motivation?
I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.
I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman
Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.
So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.
Do you understand?
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 09, 2010, 10:36:45 PM
I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.
It is not my intention to cause fear. But what I said changes nothing about the fact that in this world terrible evil happens that cannot be explained by saying God is in total control, but does wake us up from our slumber, that when evil happens in this world, we dont just sit back and said, this is Gods will, but rather be whipped into action, to wage war against evil, and Jesus came to give us that victory, the gospel and its message is the weapon we use to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. We all have a job to do and that is to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth, it won't come by itself. Our weapons of warfare are not carnal but spiritual to the bringing down of stronholdd and wickedness in high places, wear the armour of God, the helmet of salvation, swing the sword of truth and look to the captain of our souls, Jesus Christ the overcomer and mighty king, who overcame, halleliwYAH.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 09, 2010, 10:36:45 PM
I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.
Actually it is not quite clear when the word "translated" to create associated with the word evil in the verse in question can also mean "cut down".
No offense this is a general comment and not at you individually. When anyone asserts that the bible is clear on anything, that is incorrect. You assert clarity from it being clear to you at the present time. If someone else does not see scripture in the same light as you, that clarity is nonexistant.
Anyone who used to believe differenly than they do at this time should understand what I am saying. If not please comment and perhaps I can try to clarify, but to me is should be clear as day. :happy3:
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:40:32 PM
I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman
Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.
No problem. Its much better for discussion that way :thumbsup:
Quote
So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.
Do you understand?
I think mercy & grace are intrinsically tied together. God is merciful and because of that He saves us all through His grace. Yes humans have done evil - no doubt about it.
I do think we are intended to experience the "not-so-pleasant-ness" first before we experience the riches of His glory to come... again I refer to Romans 8:
Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
This is, as you seem to realize, so we will learn to be humble and kind and understanding and not be "spoilt brats".
The whole passage follows similar idea of Romans 11... specifically:
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Philosophically it makes sense to me as well. God is creating mankind - God is creating people of character. The only way to produce character is by suffering and overcoming adversity. God doesn't want a bunch of wimps who laze about all day gorging themselves on chocolate while living in their gold mansions deciding which Ferrari to drive that day (not that you were suggesting that LOL!).
If people are to learn how to be compassionate, there has to be some reason for people to show compassion.
If people are to learn how to forgive, by necessity people must be wronged so that they can forgive.
If people are to learn how to be strong and overcome, then there must be some obstacle to overcome.
Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also glory in our
sufferings, because we know that suffering produces
perseverance; 4 perseverance,
character; and character,
hope.
That verse in a nutshell tells us why there is suffering.
You may ask, why do we need to learn how to be compassionate? Why do we need to have character? BECAUSE it is a GOOD THING. That is what LOVE is: being compassionate. That is what God is doing here: building character, teaching us how to LOVE - because God is LOVE and He is teaching us about Him.
So as you put it: God gives us a "below par life" - YES. That is what this physical life is. The physical is "below par". The physical is corrupt. The physical dies. The physical will pass away. However we will be raised incorruptible - spiritual. This physical life is not the real life or real purpose. The real life will be our spiritual life, and it will be glorious!
I don't believe God is evil, nor weak, I think his strength comes from the fact that he did not create weakness (sin) neither did he ever become weak by sinning - either in proxy or directly - by creating evil in the first place, or doing it through others. God not creating evil doesn't mean he is automatically weak, far from it. However God creating evil does according to the scriptures - make his heart the seat of sin.
But if it is a choice between a weak perfect god, and a powerful evil god...I'll choose the weak god any day, atleast he's actually perfect, and not just pretending.
The scriptures dear friend, are quite plain...If God created evil, then evil is in his heart; as a man thinks so is he, out of the abundance of his heart the mouth speaks, these are laws, just like sowing and reaping is a law, it is a truth, a law, that what ever is the heart of a being, so is he in his expressions. God created what he expressed out of his heart. Is evil in his heart? It is if he created it.
If you are full of hate...that hate will come out, for example.
I personally believe the verse accurately says "cuts down" darkness, and "cuts down" evil. Or...Is the Bible perfectly clear when it says that God is going to eternally burn every man, woman, and child who doesn't repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ in Hellfire, and brimstone as the lamb watches the show? The Bible says that too according to a few translations. Yet here we stand with apologies concerning Aion and Olam, and many other "perfectly clear" things.
To put it simply:
As God thinks, so is he.
Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2010, 10:00:02 PM
ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...
IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture... :nod:
I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.
Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod: For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1
I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?
Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...
He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation. :dontknow:
Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.
There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured... here are just a few:
1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 09, 2010, 10:12:33 PM
Thank you for the reply willie, very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.
:sigh: ...this comment is more of the regular cold sarcasm... that continues in flowing from you... to be pitied... :pitiful:
What I have, is the assurance that... my course is already noted by
YHVH... and whatever it is, it is my part in HIS puzzle... whatever it might be... and I accept, that the part that my life has played in its entirety is needed in order for that PUZZLE to arrive at its completion...
So far, I have raised 3 great human beings (my son just walked in while I was typing this, and is celebrating his 13th anniversary today --- whaddaya know! :thumbsup:) ...who have produced 10 grandchildren with my wife of 34 years -- (Hey thats almost as long as you have been alive, isnt it?)... and in ALL that time (65 years), never been in a jail cell ONCE... How about you? :dontknow:
Thankfully my life does NOT include the sarcastic, unedifying and irrelevant IMAGINARY conjecture you propose (and likely wish for me), which has no substance IN REALITY, whatsoeverl... :thumbdown:
Once again, you show that you are very easily confounded, as you wallow in your negativity (proposing such as me as a potential "serial killer"), :thumbdown: ...which only displays, to be obviously, and unfortunately, ...YOUR PART... :pitiful:
Who knows brother Paul... maybe the Lord has filled my hands to the degree (with all those kids & grandkids) that He plans to pass that "serial killer" option to you... hey --- you never know! :dunno:
willieH :cloud9:
For all the talk of this deity being so powerful that he can do the impossible (the ludicrously impossible) he seems awfully intent on staying as far away from messing with our pre-determined evil riddled destinies as he can...
almost as if it were impossible for him to change his own pre-determined ordinances...
Edited my post a little bit.
Quote from: willieH on November 10, 2010, 12:05:39 AM
Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2010, 10:00:02 PM
ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...
IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture... :nod:
I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.
Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod: For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1
I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?
Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...
He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation. :dontknow:
Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.
There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured... here are just a few:
1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 09, 2010, 10:12:33 PM
Thank you for the reply willie, very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.
:sigh: ...this comment is more of the regular cold sarcasm... that continues in flowing from you... to be pitied... :pitiful:
What I have, is the assurance that... my course is already noted by YHVH... and whatever it is, it is my part in HIS puzzle... whatever it might be... and I accept, that the part that my life has played in its entirety is needed in order for that PUZZLE to arrive at its completion...
So far, I have raised 3 great human beings who have produced 10 grandchildren with a wife of 34 years... and in that time, never been in a jail cell ONCE...
Thankfully it is NOT the sarcastic, unedifying and irrelevant IMAGINARY conjecture you propose, which has no substance IN REALITY, at all... :thumbdown:
Once again, you show that you are very easily confounded, as you wallow in your negativity (proposing such as me as a potential "serial killer"), :thumbdown: ...which only displays, to be obviously, and unfortunately, ...YOUR PART... :pitiful:
Who knows brother Paul... maybe the Lord has filled my hands to the degree (with all those kids & grandkids) that He plans to pass that "serial killer" option to you... hey --- you never know! :dunno:
willieH :cloud9:
Thank you for the reply Willie, truth is what it is, if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do.
If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.
Again thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.
Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2010, 09:17:59 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 09:01:39 PM
which is?
That the world through Christ will be saved.
CHB
...each in His own order. Some now, the first fruits at His appearing, then...All in All.
You asked earlier TT, what's God's intention for this world now? Was it Jesus' intention that all be saved at that very moment, when He hid the truth from them? (spoke in parables, lest they believe and turn). I think it's a bigger plan than that, and sometimes we can see very little of it...at the moment. This has been said numerous times, and it's in the scriptures. Interesting how we just see pieces..all of us. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Lefein on November 10, 2010, 12:09:01 AM
For all the talk of this deity being so powerful that he can do the impossible (the ludicrously impossible) he seems awfully intent on staying as far away from messing with our pre-determined evil riddled destinies as he can...
He has no need to
change that which is
PERFECT... so He doesn't --
Mal 3:6willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,
I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way. IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization. Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying? If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 12:13:53 AMThank you for the reply Willie, truth is what it is, if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do.
If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.
I haven't any problem with your sarcasm... though I feel for you that you are amidst it... but as you have duly noted, it is your part... just as Pharaoh had his... :dontknow:
That YOU, within your demented thought processes, would suggest that I (as a follower of
CHRIST) would strangle my grandchildren only further avails the darkened place in which your mind dwells... :pitiful:
Like I said, ...God has busied me, by surrounding me with the affairs of
LOVE in my life... maybe
you are the one to get the "serial killer opportunity" Paul... who knows? :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 12:13:53 AMAgain thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.
You are more than welcome... :HeartThrob:
It is always my heartfelt desire to serve, and in thanksgiving toward
YHVH ...that welcomes the opportunity of my sharing, to be used by Him in His enlightenment of the existent shadows within your darkened understanding... :friendstu:
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on November 10, 2010, 12:33:21 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 12:13:53 AMThank you for the reply Willie, truth is what it is, if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do.
If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.
I haven't any problem with your sarcasm... though I feel for you that you are amidst it... but as you have duly noted, it is your part... just as Pharaoh had his... :dontknow:
That YOU, within your demented thought processes, would suggest that I (as a follower of CHRIST) would strangle my grandchildren only further avails the darkened place in which your mind dwells... :pitiful:
Like I said, ...God has busied me, by surrounding me with the affairs of LOVE in my life... maybe you are the one to get the "serial killer opportunity" Paul... who knows? :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 12:13:53 AMAgain thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.
You are more than welcome... :HeartThrob:
It is always my heartfelt desire to serve, and in thanksgiving toward YHVH ...that welcomes the opportunity of my sharing, to be used by Him in His enlightenment of the existent shadows within your darkened understanding... :friendstu:
willieH :cloud9:
Thank you for sharing the desire of God to manifest a demented thought process that you percieve taking place.
It is not of me but of God.
That truth being manifest then you can take comfort that it is indeed the truth and that you nor anyone else has any assurance that the God of love and good news has not designed you to beat your wife in the future and in the event that such a thing take place in Gods will it will be for a good and divine purpose.
Let us continue to share the good news that no believer can rest easy knowing that God will harden who he hardens and can turn the most devout believer into someone that drowns their children.
Yea, let us share the good news.
:cloud9: Ok, seems things are getting a bit testy again......locking the thread for a few minutes so everyone can count to 10....
A little related reading material while we wait to see if/when this thread is re-opened;
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/a_look_on_wrath_6707.0.html
MOD NOTE -
I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not. I've realized some things.
BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).
We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.
I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately. ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions. Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few. Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.
So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.
Bonus note, won't cost you a thing :bigGrin:. I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night. What do we want them to witness?
SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?
THREAD'S OPEN - respectful, UR-focused plz. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
MOD NOTE -
I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not. I've realized some things.
BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).
We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.
I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately. ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions. Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few. Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.
So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.
Bonus note, won't cost you a thing :bigGrin:. I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night. What do we want them to witness?
SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?
I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern. What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.
The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart. Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad, otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.
Isa 55:8 For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.
Isa 55:9 For, higher, are the heavens than the earth,—So, higher, are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isa
55:10 For, as the rain and the snow descend from the heavens. And thither, do not return, Except they have watered the earth. And caused it to bring forth and bud,—And given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 So, shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, It shall not return unto me void,—But shall accomplish that which I please, And shall prosper in that whereunto I have sent it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 05:43:48 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
MOD NOTE -
I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not. I've realized some things.
BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).
We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.
I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately. ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions. Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few. Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.
So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.
Bonus note, won't cost you a thing :bigGrin:. I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night. What do we want them to witness?
SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?
I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern. What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.
The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart. Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad, otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.
Well, I disagree with you Paul and think James and Card stepped in at just the right moment.
Paul, asking tough questions is not the issue, and I don't know how you could get that it is out of my post. I don't think it's there. If that were an accurate assessment, the thread would still be locked, and would have probably been locked a long time ago.
What it's addressing is people being insulting to each other, and doing exactly what I outlined in the post - flaming and baiting, which is against forum guidelines.
People being considerate, not smarting each other off and insulting each other, IMO, is not being fake.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2010, 05:51:36 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2010, 05:43:48 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
MOD NOTE -
I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not. I've realized some things.
BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).
We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.
I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately. ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions. Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few. Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.
So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.
Bonus note, won't cost you a thing :bigGrin:. I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night. What do we want them to witness?
SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?
I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern. What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.
The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart. Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad, otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.
Well, I disagree with you Paul and think James and Card stepped in at just the right moment.
It is ok for you to disagree with me.
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 05:54:59 AM
Paul, asking tough questions is not the issue, and I don't know how you could get that it is out of my post. I don't think it's there. If that were an accurate assessment, the thread would still be locked, and would have probably been locked a long time ago.
What it's addressing is people being insulting to each other, and doing exactly what I outlined in the post - flaming and baiting, which is against forum guidelines.
People being considerate, not smarting each other off and insulting each other, IMO, is not being fake.
Ok, I must have missed what was going on.
1Pt 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
In order for us to determine what it is that is Evil there first must be a benchmark concerning what that is. The idea that whatever God does is good tickles our ears but there is no reasoning in that to tell us what evil is.
There must be a benchmark and knowledge concerning what is an evil act and what is not.
One argument I have heard is that some things God is credited for are righteous because what human being might experience at his hands is only temporary, so then the end game justifies the means.
Ro 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
I for one see it impossible to determine an evil act if being righteous justifies anything. What then cannot be justified?
We find this a lot. Many finger pointers pour out bucket loads of "truth" onto others in the name of thinking themselves to be true followers of Christ simply doing the "will" of God. If the thought of being righteous then gives the sense of right just what then IS right and wrong?
I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory. It is the relationship between sin and evil. Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin." In Greek I don't remember. I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.
Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage. There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment. Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties. Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)
Evil is not necessarily sin. A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin. God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 11967; AV) Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:
Hebrews 126-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
But the principle I think we should emphasize (that has been mentioned here) about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things. We are to intimately know Him as our Savior. As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant. The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do. God is worth of a people that glorify His name. Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory. It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead. This is what will remain: all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified. "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil. Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.
The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one. It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God. Is it Sarah or Hagar? Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family. Is it Rachel or Leah? How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you? Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways. There are 12 foundations to the city and 12 gates into it. Yet, "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life. God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth. God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.
Quote from: reFORMer on November 10, 2010, 06:45:42 AM
I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory. It is the relationship between sin and evil. Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin." In Greek I don't remember. I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.
Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage. There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment. Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties. Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)
Evil is not necessarily sin. A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin. God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 11967; AV) Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:
Hebrews 126-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
But the principle (that has been mentioned here) I think we should emphasize about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things. We are to intimately know Him as our Savior. As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant. The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do. God is worth of a people that glorify His name. Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory. It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead. This is what will remain: all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified. "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil. Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.
The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one. It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God. Is it Sarah or Hagar? Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family. Is it Rachel or Leah? How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you? Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways. There are 12 gates into the city. "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life. God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth. God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.
That is some good things to think about, however, if you knew that the tornado was intentionally directed through a town, could the director of the tornado then be sinning?
I concede room for remedial justice - a tornado on a town who might have really flung themselves into Sodom and Tophet...
But, I don't think he sends a tornado just to show his kids what it feels like to be hit by one.
Quote from: Lefein on November 10, 2010, 06:59:54 AM
I concede room for remedial justice - a tornado on a town who might have really flung themselves into Sodom and Tophet...
But, I don't think he sends a tornado just to show his kids what it feels like to be hit by one.
Are you bringing that thought into modern times and documented cases of a tornado leveling the structures of an entire town?
I am.
Some tornados may have some form of judgement, but I don't know. But much of it is simply weather, the signs of a fallen universe where death is still in play, (I believe) and more to the point; Signs of the times, that the last days are full of disaster. When I say last days, I mean the age leading up to the age to come - whether or not this is tomorrow, or until every nation alive today is two generations dead ten thousand years from now; still a part of the age that is "The Last Days", so disaster, earthquakes, war, famine, rumours of wars, etc - are a part of it.
And then there is simple sowing and reaping involved. God is a god of common sense - if you build your house in an area that is fraught with tornado activity, sooner or later you're going to get it. If you lay down in the middle of a busy highway, you're soon to get hit. No act of God was involved here, just plain human stupidity at its finest.
Or else, sometimes it is just a man's time to go, and God takes him up in style...If that makes sense.
Quote from: Lefein on November 10, 2010, 07:14:49 AM
I am.
Some tornados may have some form of judgement, but I don't know. But much of it is simply weather, the signs of a fallen universe where death is still in play, (I believe) and more to the point; Signs of the times, that the last days are full of disaster. When I say last days, I mean the age leading up to the age to come - whether or not this is tomorrow, or until every nation alive today is two generations dead ten thousand years from now; still a part of the age that is "The Last Days", so disaster, earthquakes, war, famine, rumours of wars, etc - are a part of it.
And then there is simple sowing and reaping involved. God is a god of common sense - if you build your house in an area that is fraught with tornado activity, sooner or later you're going to get it. If you lay down in the middle of a busy highway, you're soon to get hit. No act of God was involved here, just plain human stupidity at its finest.
Or else, sometimes it is just a man's time to go, and God takes him up in style...If that makes sense.
Well, what I am getting at is what determines that a tornado leveled a town due to its residence living in sin and merely "weather".
That I can't answer unfortunately. It gets up into the realm of God's ways being higher than mine.
But I'd find it safer to assume that all tornados are just the way of things, and that none of them are judgements until something shows otherwise - like a tornado hitting Las Vegas seven times in a row and pulling down all sorts of casinos but leaving the slums alone. (when it is obvious, it is judgement).
I guess it comes down to what the tornado does, and how it is responded to.
Quote from: Lefein on November 10, 2010, 07:25:29 AM
That I can't answer unfortunately. It gets up into the realm of God's ways being higher than mine.
But I'd find it safer to assume that all tornados are just the way of things, and that none of them are judgements until something shows otherwise - like a tornado hitting Las Vegas seven times in a row and pulling down all sorts of casinos but leaving the slums alone. (when it is obvious, it is judgement).
I guess it comes down to what the tornado does, and how it is responded to.
Actually I think your thought of common sense is going down the right track. Those kinds of things is why I tend to glean more spiritual thought from the whole bible as seeing a mirror of that kind of judgment within myself.
For instance, a tornado to me is simply inert weather patterns on earth not being driven by sin or evil, it is just the nature of our planet. However I can see how to relate the act of a tornado of judgment within myself and see where God sends it within my mind in judgment of where I should change or chastisment for sin.
It would make sense that way; The Bible says that Christ was tested by sins common to all men, so it would make sense that sins common to all men would have judgements that are common to all men. Most men tend to not be hit by firestorms, and earthquakes for being a petty shoplifter...though the firestorm in their spirit, and the earthquake in their sense of security, the fear of getting caught...is usually enough of a judgement in itself. Especially when they do get caught.
And I suppose (speculatively speaking) that if these private common judgements for common men with their sins common to all of them were to apply to a nation, or residence it would be like this;
The earthquake of an individual fearful about getting caught, and the firestorm of conviction in his conscience...might appear on a city, if all of the residences are in a sin that is common to them.
Like Sodom getting hit by fire because their sins were not only horrendous - but because it was common in their society, and common in a hyperactive sort of sense. "Constant, and common" amongst all of the men there - and so...they received a common judgement manifested in a way befitting the level of common sin.
In summary perhaps it is something like this;
One man shoplifts, he gets an earthquake in his spirit, a common judgement for that sin.
If every man in a town is stealing from each other and does so constantly, they get an earthquake in their town, a common judgement applied "wholesale".
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:40:32 PM
I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman
Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.
So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.
Do you understand?
For me:
- Mercy = Decreasing the amount of punishment deserved. --> Decreasing the negative.
- Grace = Increasing the amount of gifts you didn't deserve --> Increasing the positive.
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 12:23:03 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,
I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way. IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization. Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying? If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.
Let me start with saying I fully understand (some) people want to keep God "clean" of negativity.
Everyone said his/her thing and I think this thread will
not lead to further understanding if we just keep discussiong opinions and feelings.
Better would be to collect verses that support both views and then analyse them (little word studies)
All
IMO
If I wasn't trying to stay out of this for now, I'd give you a thumbs up on that. :laughhand:
Quote from: PaulRo 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
This made me think of the Christian Zionists who used to favor war in the middle east so that Jesus might return sooner. One has to ask, what Jesus are they talking about and what makes them think they can control his return, especially by killing innocents?
QuoteI for one see it impossible to determine an evil act if being righteous justifies anything. What then cannot be justified?
Or to put it differently, an evil act done in the name of righteousness is never justified. We see this kind of behavior in cults, e.g. Jonestown.
Isn't this clear in the behavior of men? Then, why would we think it would be any different with God?
Quote from: reFORMer on November 10, 2010, 06:45:42 AM
I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory. It is the relationship between sin and evil. Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin." In Greek I don't remember. I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.
Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage. There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment. Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties. Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)
Evil is not necessarily sin. A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin. God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 11967; AV) Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:
Hebrews 126-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
But the principle I think we should emphasize (that has been mentioned here) about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things. We are to intimately know Him as our Savior. As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant. The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do. God is worth of a people that glorify His name. Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory. It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead. This is what will remain: all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified. "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil. Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.
The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one. It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God. Is it Sarah or Hagar? Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family. Is it Rachel or Leah? How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you? Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways. There are 12 foundations to the city and 12 gates into it. Yet, "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life. God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth. God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2010, 09:15:00 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2010, 12:23:03 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 09, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,
I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way. IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization. Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying? If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.
Let me start with saying I fully understand (some) people want to keep God "clean" of negativity.
Everyone said his/her thing and I think this thread will not lead to further understanding if we just keep discussiong opinions and feelings.
Better would be to collect verses that support both views and then analyse them (little word studies)
All IMO
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: ReformerGod is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth. God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.
A little known story--
NAZI CRIMES AGAINST ETHNIC POLESThe majority of those killed by Nazi Germany [in Poland] were civilians (exceeding military deaths nearly 10:1).[1][2]
From the start of the war against Poland, Germany intended to realize the plan laid-out by the Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in his 1926 book Mein Kampf. The aim of this plan was to turn Eastern Europe into part of greater Germany, the so-called German Lebensraum ("living space"). Nazi ideology had viewed Slavs as a racially inferior group.[3] On the August 22, 1939, on the invasion of Poland, Hitler gave explicit permission to his commanders
to kill "without pity or mercy, men, women, and children of Polish descent or language"[4]. Genocide was conducted systematically against Polish people: on September 7 1939 Reinhard Heydrich stated that all Polish nobles, clergy and Jews are to be killed, on September 12 Wilhelm Keitel added intelligentsia to the list,at the end of 1940 Hitler demanded liquidation of "all leading elements in Poland" and on 15 March 1940 Himmler stated
All Polish specialists will be exploited in our military-industrial complex. Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German nation considers the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task[5].http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_PolesThey didn't succeed, did they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUp7opL0F0IJesus rises in Poland--world's tallest statue of Jesus just completed
Isa 55:8 For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.
Isa 55:9 For, higher, are the heavens than the earth,—So, higher, are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isa
55:10 For, as the rain and the snow descend from the heavens. And thither, do not return, Except they have watered the earth. And caused it to bring forth and bud,—And given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 So, shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, It shall not return unto me void,—But shall accomplish that which I please, And shall prosper in that whereunto I have sent it.
Anything that Jehovah does or allows is for good.
Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.
Colossians 1:17
New International Version (©1984)
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
New Living Translation (©2007)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
International Standard Version (©2008)
He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He existed before everything and holds everything together.
King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
American King James Version
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
American Standard Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Bible in Basic English
He is before all things, and in him all things have being.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
Darby Bible Translation
And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him.
English Revised Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Webster's Bible Translation
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Weymouth New Testament
And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.
World English Bible
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
Young's Literal Translation
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
:cloud9: I shared this before, but I came to my stance on this subject about a week after I started hemmoraghing buckets, and was told I had terminal cancer which had spread to my other organs. This occurred only 2 years after my mother lost her battle the same way, which made it even worse.
Worse still, was His comment to me during that time, about 4 months before she passed, that the cancer had a legal right (generational curse to an only child) to come to me, but that He would not let it touch me. I have faith that He has developed over years, to know that if He says something, He will perform it.
Shocked, I went home from the doctor's office, and hit the floor on my face, and said, "LORD! Define "touch!" :mshock:
I had to face at this moment, that He COULD let it take me if that was His perfect will for me, and that I needed to accept that from His hand if that was the case, in spite of previous promises received from Him. Job said essentially, shall we receive good from the Lord and not EVIL? Note that God said that Job did not sin with his lips/confession.
Once I accepted this and surrendered my life to His perfect will for me (something I had already done long ago, but not under such circumstances), I received the revelation that if ONLY God could "kill" (allow death to take me) me, NOTHING ELSE COULD. Receiving this was gained by EXPERIENCE.
And when I say experience, I'm not talking about the condition of having terminal cancer, but rather the drinking of His cup, which is the taking on of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil = US. To have knowledge of, means to be one with, as Adam knew his wife and she conceived. Sin, when it hath conceived, bringeth forth death. He took on the image of sinful flesh.
I had thought I was totally surrendered to His perfect will, but when facing literal death and all that means to you and others you care about, it was a whole new ballgame. God uses evil as a tool, with a perfect motive of the heart. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on November 10, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.
wow.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 10, 2010, 04:39:38 PM
Anything that Jehovah does or allows is for good.
I absolutely know that God is pure righteousness, however, Man can associate God as doing things that creats the illusion that something is righteous.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2010, 05:22:30 PM
@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.
No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.
Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.
God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.
From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on November 10, 2010, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2010, 05:22:30 PM
@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.
No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.
Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.
God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.
From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are :dontknow:
The issue I think is the nature of his control. God may not intervene if you decide to kill someone, that doesn't mean he is not in control it means that there may be a certain nature of things that causes it to appear to us in a "negative" sense.
Let me illustrate something to relate what I believe at this time.
I think a lot about the butterfly simply because as we study that metamorphasis and watch from the outside it sure appears that the butterfly is putting up quite a struggle as it is trying to break into freedom from the cocoon. Of course we really do not know if the butterfly "thinks" anything at all.
However I though one time as I was watching a cocoon wiggle around, what if the butterfly was aware that I was there, what if the butterfly was experiencing all kind of "evil" in it's world perhaps it sees great attrocities as it is trapped and wanting to break free of the world it might see as a prison. It might think, why, why do I just watch and do nothing.
Some certainly disagree, but I think we are in a cocoon in a similar fashion, not because God "planned" it that way as if he did not have to and could of done it some other way, but we perceive things and imagine things and come up with things to make sense of the God who apparently does nothing to stop this "out of control" world. When the reality is, God understands our struggle and looks on "knowing" what "must" be. He couldn't have done it any other way because it is the "nature" of our existance and he looks on in wonderful anticipation of the beauty that is working to break free.
QuoteIt's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
If you're sinless, Beloved Servant cast the first stone. Otherwise, put away that judgemental, pharisaical spirit from you that says;
"If you do not look my way - you are not looking at all" I personally think Thinktank might be on to something, darkly we all see, but on to something none the less.
__ __ __
Back on topic, I think Thinktank is right, there is a Christian Myth regarding God's type of sovereignty.
Now, in order to avoid judgemental sentences; I
DO BELIEVE that God is Sovereign. However;
God's sovereign control does not necessitate pervading omni-manipulation. God is much smarter than that - he has the capacity to use brains over brawn. He is almighty enough to use subtle miracles more often than he does splitting the seas and rivers.
God sees when the swallow, or the sparrow, or the eagle, or the hummingbird falls out of the sky and dies - but does it say he smacked it out of the sky by any means of his power? No, it simply means that the law of gravity took effect on an otherwise upward bound creature.
Christ keeps the universe in check, this is a fact. But does it mean that Christ is using a pervading omni-manipulation sovereignty to do so? Perhaps in some cases, yes. But the truth is most likely in the middle of "God makes the wind blow at exactly 2 gusts per minute, and makes the rain drops fall at a rate of 2 inches per half hour in Idaho around my great aunt McNugget's house" and "God just made a clockwork universe, wound it up, and let it go, otherwise he has no control".
Is it really honouring to our Father in heaven, to just say "God did it" and not even look into how he may have done it? How can we know our real father, God, if we worship him with a false reverence - a reverence that over-grandeurises God's power (and yes it can be done even with the infinite grandness of God, in the exact same way you can over-spiritualise God who is Spirit) by putting up an ultimatum over every act in nature, an ultimatum that makes us sound like primitive pagans?
Two Christians were given a science test, and on that test was the question;
Why do earthquakes happen?
One child put; God did it.
The other child put; God did it by creating the law of convection in the earth that by their work caused two tectonic plates to grind against each other, creating an earthquake.
The other child surely got a good grade, the first child failed. God likewise I am sure thinks it is a poor faith, a poor grade, a poor learning when he gives us opportunities to learn the finesse of his sovereignty, and his creation - and we act like untaught heathens who have no better answer than out of some fear of insulting our deity by saying anything other than "God did it" "Zeus did it" "Isis did it" "Ra did it" "The Chrone Goddess did it" "Dagda did it", just because you change the name to God, or YHWH, or Yahweh doesn't make it any less pagan sounding in God's ears. It is false reverence that doesn't like a child want to know more about the fine work of Father God's workmanship.
God did it, is perhaps a true answer, but it is a very poor one given on our part, because it is bare minimum faith, a faith that doesn't seek to know how, or why, or what, it doesn't commune, or communicate, or seek the heart of God, it only sits on the outside like the Pharisees with the letter of the word instead of delving to find the Spirit deep beneath it. And like the Pharisees that type of faith is going to be met with fire, and not a stone will be left upon another in the day of wrath.
Quote from: Lefein on November 10, 2010, 07:48:15 PM
QuoteIt's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
If you're sinless, Beloved Servant cast the first stone. Otherwise, put away that judgemental, pharisaical spirit from you that says;
"If you do not look my way - you are not looking at all" I personally think Thinktank might be on to something, darkly we all see, but on to something none the less.
__ __ __
Back on topic, I think Thinktank is right, there is a Christian Myth regarding God's type of sovereignty.
Now, in order to avoid judgemental sentences; I DO BELIEVE that God is Sovereign. However;
God's sovereign control does not necessitate pervading omni-manipulation. God is much smarter than that - he has the capacity to use brains over brawn. He is almighty enough to use subtle miracles more often than he does splitting the seas and rivers.
God sees when the swallow, or the sparrow, or the eagle, or the hummingbird falls out of the sky and dies - but does it say he smacked it out of the sky by any means of his power? No, it simply means that the law of gravity took effect on an otherwise upward bound creature.
Christ keeps the universe in check, this is a fact. But does it mean that Christ is using a pervading omni-manipulation sovereignty to do so? Perhaps in some cases, yes. But the truth is most likely in the middle of "God makes the wind blow at exactly 2 gusts per minute, and makes the rain drops fall at a rate of 2 inches per half hour in Idaho around my great aunt McNugget's house" and "God just made a clockwork universe, wound it up, and let it go, otherwise he has no control".
Is it really honouring to our Father in heaven, to just say "God did it" and not even look into how he may have done it? How can we know our real father, God, if we worship him with a false reverence - a reverence that over-grandeurises God's power (and yes it can be done even with the infinite grandness of God, in the exact same way you can over-spiritualise God who is Spirit) by putting up an ultimatum over every act in nature, an ultimatum that makes us sound like primitive pagans?
Two Christians were given a science test, and on that test was the question;
Why do earthquakes happen?
One child put; God did it.
The other child put; God did it by creating the law of convection in the earth that by their work caused two tectonic plates to grind against each other, creating an earthquake.
The other child surely got a good grade, the first child failed. God likewise I am sure thinks it is a poor faith, a poor grade, a poor learning when he gives us opportunities to learn the finesse of his sovereignty, and his creation - and we act like untaught heathens who have no better answer than out of some fear of insulting our deity by saying anything other than "God did it" "Zeus did it" "Isis did it" "Ra did it" "The Chrone Goddess did it" "Dagda did it", just because you change the name to God, or YHWH, or Yahweh doesn't make it any less pagan sounding in God's ears. It is false reverence that doesn't like a child want to know more about the fine work of Father God's workmanship.
God did it, is perhaps a true answer, but it is a very poor one given on our part, because it is bare minimum faith, a faith that doesn't seek to know how, or why, or what, it doesn't commune, or communicate, or seek the heart of God, it only sits on the outside like the Pharisees with the letter of the word instead of delving to find the Spirit deep beneath it. And like the Pharisees that type of faith is going to be met with fire, and not a stone will be left upon another in the day of wrath.
YOU Lefein are a victim of your own misunderstanding and more sadly pass that onto others!
I posed a question to our young TTank.
Perhaps he is here to share in OUR faith and grace and grow in it.
And I ask you again and again Lefein, stop telling me what to do!
Remember, it took David but one stone!
You accused him of not reading, or believing the scriptures. And then asked him why it was necessary to fellowship, and argue with people who do.
You created two categories - believers, unbelievers. And you put Thinktank in the unbelievers category, excluded from your own category "We who believe" as if you already had judged him an unbeliever in the scriptures, or worse someone who is ignorant of them - which he is not.
I don't believe, based on how your sentence came across, that you had good will or positive want in your statement about him, and question towards him.
And based on your reaction...I certainly don't believe it.
And how does that make you feel?
Sad.
And who turns our sadness to joy?
Who checks the fruit of His vine?
Is the vine more valuable than the root?
You know the root by the fruit. Moreso, you know its value.
You seem to be answering your own questions instead of mine.
:sigh: Thread locked once again, for a season of meditation before the Lord......will all of you please put your swords away?
(Note to self, also)......What does it matter if "A" believes one thing and "B" another? God will deal with each to bring them to wherever He wants them, WHENEVER He wants to them to be "there". Did any of you ever believe one thing only to find out it wasn't true, in God's timing? I know I did. Were you any less in His eyes when you believed the error? Was He really "ticked off" at you FOR believing the error?
Share "as you see it now" and let it go. One waters, another plants, but GOD will give the increase. Even if it's truth, if it's not someone's season to hear that particular part, they won't hear anything but thunder, and no amount of clamoring or clanging symbols is going to change that.
perfect post card. re-open as soon as you deem appropriate.
mods, with prayerful discretion, the next step is to initiate ban(s) if strife is stirred on the boards, according to recent warning post in this thread.
(internet problems today, currently at Panera using their wi-fi. hopefully fixed tonight).
EVERYONE, PLZ POST AS CARD HAS DIRECTED, OR REFRAIN FROM POSTING UNTIL YOU CAN DO SO. Others who can follow the guidelines will not be stopped from exploring just because a few want to argue. James.
:cloud9: Ok, thread is reopened. We have agreed that if this continues, there is a strong possibility that it will remain closed, or more stringent methods of dealing with it such as temporary/permanent bans may ensue.
Please try to keep in mind about the guests who also read here and never post, and most assuredly never will if all they see is name-calling and insults being hurled. Do we really want to be responsible for anyone being turned away? Thank you for your consideration.....PEACE. Card
The Bible is the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit or it is a book of whatevers, assumptiions of what "a'" god may have put in print. Man has a mind, and that mind we know has many differnet answers and interpetions and all of those "ideas" are pretty far off the base of the ONE WHO CREATED IT ALL. As for me I will take the Word of the Father and work from there, not from what "I think."
As the original poster of the topic; I'd prefer that it remained closed. And publicly request it please.
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2010, 06:21:44 AM
There is an understanding among some that God has a Huge Plan, that in some ways is beyond our limited scope of understanding. Thomas Kissinger writes about it in "The Noble Berean". It's available online. It includes God lowering mankind into this condition for a season, teaching us, while in the process, bringing us back to Himself - and all the better for it.
American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
...and all the better for it. amen.
Lets not forget the translation based on the other possible definitions that says also; Cutting down darkness, and cutting down evil.
Forming light, and cutting down darkness, making peace, and cutting down evil, I Yahweh, am doing all these things.
Quote from: Lefein on November 11, 2010, 02:09:12 AM
As the original poster of the topic; I'd prefer that it remained closed. And publicly request it please.
:thumbsup:
I vote to keep it open.
I'd be inclined to want it opened too, but only if I didn't see so much of what I dislike - not doctrines, but more about fruit and my own rage being tempted over the lack of it.
There might yet be more good fruit from the some that will appear, but we'll see, hmmn...
Father, let there be good fruit then, in Jesus' name - Amen.
Darkness and Light
Exodus 14:19-21 (Amplified Bible)
19 And the Angel of God Who went before the host of Israel moved and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before them and stood behind them,
20 Coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. It was a cloud and darkness to the Egyptians, but it gave light by night to the Israelites; and the one host did not come near the other all night.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night and made the sea dry land; and the waters were divided.
Exodus 20:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
20And Moses said to the people, Fear not; for God has come to prove you, so that the reverential fear of Him may be before you, that you may not sin.
21 And the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said to Moses, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.
Deuteronomy 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible)
22 These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He spoke not again [added no more]. He wrote them on two tables of stone and gave them to me [Moses].
23 And when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders;
24 And you said, Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire; we have this day seen that God speaks with man and man still lives.
THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST (CLV)
4 And they shall be seeing His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.
5 And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them.
And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons.
6 And he said to me, "These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, commissions His messenger to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly.
Why should it be kept open?
The Word of God reads what it says, the realization that one does not believie or accept that God is All in All and that He, God, the Creator, made EVERYTHING for His purpose and that ALL will work out to His good, is insiignificant in argument, for it is all argument. Mans opinion and assertions and assumptions become null and void in the presense of I AM.
God, Jehovah will work out all for His good or He is not the I AM.
Quote from: Lefein on November 11, 2010, 02:55:42 AM
I'd be inclined to want it opened too, but only if I didn't see so much of what I dislike - not doctrines, but more about fruit and my own rage being tempted over the lack of it.
There might yet be more good fruit from the some that will appear, but we'll see, hmmn...
Father, let there be good fruit then, in Jesus' name - Amen.
I like the thread, it has meant different things to different people. I know it has verified that I will not believe certain ways and it may have done that for others. The journey for spiritual truth was not always fun for me, now I have a blast.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 11, 2010, 03:10:20 AM
Why should it be kept open?
The Word of God reads what it says, the realization that one does not believie or accept that God is All in All and that He, God, the Creator, made EVERYTHING for His purpose and that ALL will work out to His good, is insiignificant in argument, for it is all argument. Mans opinion and assertions and assumptions become null and void in the presense of I AM.
God, Jehovah will work out all for His good or He is not the I AM.
Why have a forum at all then?
I think Gary's wondered that more than once. :laugh2:
Quote from: jabcat on November 11, 2010, 03:13:22 AM
I think Gary's wondered that more than once. :laugh2:
LOL :icon_king:
I told him about 3 months ago there were still people coming through considering UR over ET [and getting helpful information]...that's his main purpose. If that positive influence should ever cease, the discussion forum's shelf life would likely expire.
Well I enjoy myself here, plenty of passionate people concerning what they believe, I wouldn't have it any other way. If this place ever goes I will miss it.
Quote from: thinktank on November 10, 2010, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2010, 05:22:30 PM
@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.
No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.
Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.
God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.
From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are :dontknow:
I agree with you, TT.
We know that--
Satan is god of this age.
Jesus referred to the light being present while he walked on the earth.
Now we are the light in his absence.
We are the servants left behind when the owner of the house went off to a far place.
We are born out of due time, the firstfuit company; our age is the next one.
We are to use whatever talents we have to represent him until he returns.
Towards that end, he has given us the comforter, the Holy Spirit.
This age is called this evil age. And, we are given a job to do on behalf of Christ.
We are now the light of the world.
Mod Note - This is a part of something I posted in the Mod Section.
Disagreement's fine, and not the point. It's how it's done. Personal insults, snarky comments repeatedly etc., is the point. And how that escalates to food fights. Gary doesn't want that, and if he doesn't have assurance the boards are being a good witness, I wouldn't bet on its survival at some point.
Bottom line, flaming/baiting is at issue. Embarrassing, insulting, namecalling lead to dischord and strife. It is very possible to see things differently and disagree without acting like jerks.
I've been thinking about this current season we're in on the boards. I've realized that we're actually locked into a struggle over free will and sovereignty, AT THIS POINT EVEN WITHOUT USING THOSE TERMS - but we've got locked horns just the same. I'm wondering at what point allowing/encouraging that to continue is usefull. Most of the time those things can be discussed in passing, and as long as those hot button terms aren't used, we eventually move on, no harm no foul. But I'm really questioning the continued focus on this as is now the case. I don't know if anybody's really learned much, it's a highly charged topic - I believe because it revolves around "control issues" - both God's and ours personally - and it appears to be an invitation for strife.
Actually, I feel I may have missed the Lord's leading by re-opening the thing. I didn't want to lock something down that most could discuss without strife, rather than moderate the select individuals causing problems - but looking at the bigger picture, again, we're just arguing sovereignty/free will by other names at this point, IMO.
I AM NOT ASKING FOR FEEDBACK OR CRITICISM ON MODERATION. That's been decided and will be as noted the past couple of days.
The question is, what does the body think about this issue in terms of where we are as the ecclesia; what are we accomplishing, what's each of our purpose(s) here, how do you see the observations I've made above? And again, moderation is at issue ONLY IN TERMS OF FEEDBACK ON THE USEFULNESS OF SUCH DISCUSSION - AT SOME POINT - SUCH AS NOW.
So I'm opening this piece of the discussion up for some feedback, we'll gather some insight, and the mods will discuss further and make decisions about where we go from here. Thought some public discourse might be helpful.
Thanks, James.
I've been a member for some time now and it is obvious that not all who visit here are of the brethren.
Moderation is necessary to tend the garden.
I think that it is once again a question of not paying attention to the ages.
There are different ages, and they serve different purposes, and if one ignores that then it sounds like they are arguing with those who don't ignore it--but actually they are just looking at different ages.
The same thing applies to ET--if you ignore the ages, then aionian punishment means forever.
The Bible tells us we are in an evil age now.
I do not see it as God doing the evil, but he is allowing it.
Galatians 1:4
who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
The present evil age has been around for quite awhile, and I believe it will continue utill His time, until those called are aroused to their truth. Jesus came to establish a kingdom it seems to me that all we have done is depend and lean on His Word, which is good, yet when will I begin to believe that He is in His/this body and the works that He did, His body will do more of. We seem to be walking in the world of man and not in the world that He birthed us into. We dont believe, I can accept that can you?
He is still waking up some sleepers.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 11, 2010, 04:41:32 AM
He is still waking up some sleepers.
And I beleive there are many sleepers
Again, some have been called and chosen to come out of this evil age--to be in the world, not of it. That means we are not to be tainted by the world even though we are fully engaged in it. Jesus prayed not to take us out of the world but to deliver us from evil.
Those who ignore that this is an age related phenomenon either become Calvinists or drop out of the world altogether.
Luke 11:33
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Quote from: Molly on November 11, 2010, 04:46:13 AM
Again, some have been called and chosen to come out of this evil age--to be in the world, not of it. That means we are not to be tainted by the world even though we are fully engaged in it. Jesus prayed not to take us out of the world but to deliver us from evil.
Those who ignore that this is an age related phenomenon either become Calvinists or drop out of the world altogether.
Luke 11:33
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
A good many have come out and there are more with ears to hear, And they are not in the least worried about the news of day and all it politics.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 11, 2010, 04:41:32 AM
He is still waking up some sleepers.
:cloud9: It can be no other way, He put all of us to "sleep" in the first place..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: MicahA good many have come out and there are more with ears to hear, And they are not in the least worried about the news of day and all it politics.
Hopefully, we all fully do what God has appointed us to do.
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 11, 2010, 04:56:20 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 11, 2010, 04:41:32 AM
He is still waking up some sleepers.
:cloud9: It can be no other way, He put all of us to "sleep" in the first place..... :thumbsup:
Sadly, many talk in their sleep!
Who are these who are yet asleep and not of the brethren?
That was two different posts and references.
It was a simple question. Nevermind...
No, it was not.
You mixed the two into one strange question.
Shifting back to picking 'topical' fruit...
I believe I had a revelation concerning "Judgement".
QuoteOne man shoplifts, he gets an earthquake in his spirit, a common judgement for that (common) sin.
If every man in a town is stealing from each other and does so constantly, they get an earthquake in their town, a common judgement applied "wholesale".
I would like for us to discuss this, in a positive attitude please. What do you guys think of this in terms of God's pattern of judgement?
Quote from: Lefein on November 11, 2010, 05:59:19 AM
I would like for us to discuss this, in a positive attitude please.
You see Lefein,
This is where you offend without, perhaps, even realizing it.
Positive attitude doubly requested, and with twice the please. I want to discuss the topic, not your problems with me, of which I care very little about at all, especially since the moderators have spoken and said "stop it", several times already. So here's a thought - take it to my PM box if you want to fight, or argue, or what ever. I have ample room in it for anything you'd like to say.
Do you not even know what you write?
You are implying that those other than yourself have a negative attitude — and that's offensive Lefein!
...and now you ask to double it.
I have a PM box, it is open, have fun. This is not the place that we're going to discuss this matter any further, if I so choose to even discuss it.
If you insist on it, you're in the moderator's hands. I'm washing my hands of this, and I am done with this conversation. God willing...
Taking offense is a luxury which stronger men than myself may endulge. When our egos cause us to miss the bigger picture it's time to reevaluate our motives for debate. :2c:
Quote from: Lefein on November 11, 2010, 02:09:12 AM
As the original poster of the topic; I'd prefer that it remained closed. And publicly request it please.
I vote to keep it open because nobody is forced to read/participate.
Quote from: Lefein on November 11, 2010, 02:28:23 AM
Lets not forget the translation based on the other possible definitions that says also; Cutting down darkness, and cutting down evil.
Forming light, and cutting down darkness, making peace, and cutting down evil, I Yahweh, am doing all these things.
I just checked ISA2 and I think it's impossible to translate the verse as you have suggested above.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf
one-forming and·one-creating darkness one-makingdo well-being and·one-creating evil I Yahweh one-makingdo all-of these
Note #1: The use of forming and creating is interesting.
Note #2: Even if you translate this verse the way you suggested a lot of problems like the verse in post #471 remain.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
bump
Also Tony, would you please bump your nde post? I couldn't find it. Thanks.
NDE's are not really proof. Everyone can write one. Anyway pasted below:
Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 10:33:02 AM
NDE's are not really proof. Everyone can write one. Anyway pasted below:
Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?
Are you limiting this to things that as humans we percieve as out of our control rather than what evil deeds we may commit that may possibly be within out control to do or not do?
I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 04:03:59 PM
I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?
No, it was concerning your question here
QuoteThere were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?
Whatr I am asking is about the nature of these agreements in reference to evil.
What agreements might you be suggesting?
For instance a human who comitted an evil deed, where does that fit in to what you was suggesting?
Now I understand but I have no answer. I just don't know.
Just assuming the NDEs are true it possibly answers why some people are healty all their life while others are very often ill. It could be related to the task they choose.
Then the obvious question is are the raped and the rapists both carrying out their agreed upon task. I don't know. It's problematic for me.
The same as some verses/passages. It's all seems very clear but OTOH something doesn't feel right.
Vague answer... it's the best I can do right now.
:cloud9: That's exactly what was communicated to me. He took me up in spirit into the heavens where the stars are. I was seeing in the Spirit. I saw what looked like silver-ish round orbs of light with faces on them. I heard (also by the Spirit, they didn't really "speak") them talking about about what they were going to do here. I felt the joy of the Lord hit me, just as they had it also, describing their forthcoming lives. They knew about relationships with one another, and had joy even over the "bad" things. They knew it was to perfect unconditional love in one another, and they were excited about it.
I was shocked because I had NO doctrine in place for this experience and I had to seek His face in the Word to "see" this after it was over. Blessings.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 04:31:39 PM
Now I understand but I have no answer. I just don't know.
Just assuming the NDEs are true it possibly answers why some people are healty all their live while others are very often ill. It could be related to the task they choose.
Then the obvious question is are the raped and the rapists both carrying out their agreed upon task. I don't know. It's problematic for me.
The same as some verses/passages. It's all seems very clear but OTOH something doesn't feel right.
Vague answer... it's the best I can do right now.
That is ok, it is good to contemplate possibilities.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 04:03:59 PM
I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?
The problem with your theory is that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.
Another problem is that the average folk finds earth a challenging place without a handicap, so who are these "brave" souls who want this challenge?
Another problem is, if there are 100 handicaps born but only 50 volunteers, that leaves 50 bodies without a spirit man or soul inside them.
Also another problem is that handicapped babies from what I have read might have been subjected to poison chemicals such as mercury, excessive alcahol, etc in the womb. Do you think it's Gods will for the mother to drink excessivly when pregnant?
Or for the baby to be born in a toxic environment where there is lead and mercury?
Perhaps God is taking advantage of these evil situations, making good out of evil, but there's a lot of questions concerning this, the ones I have presented are only a few.
:2c:
May God's will triumph upon the earth, Hail the king of kings :icon_king:
Quote from: thinktank on November 11, 2010, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 04:03:59 PM
I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?
The problem with your theory
My theory is abit strong wording...
Quoteis that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.
Or teh task was completed.
QuoteAnother problem is that the average folk finds earth a challenging place without a handicap, so who are these "brave" souls who want this challenge?
Don't know. The fast learmers perhaps.
QuoteAnother problem is, if there are 100 handicaps born but only 50 volunteers, that leaves 50 bodies without a spirit man or soul inside them
The body is created for the task. Not the task put in the body.
QuoteAlso another problem is that handicapped babies from what I have read might have been subjected to poison chemicals such as mercury, excessive alcahol, etc in the womb. Do you think it's Gods will for the mother to drink excessivly when pregnant?
Or for the baby to be born in a toxic environment where there is lead and mercury?
I don't see the problem with that. If, IF, the NDE is true then the things you described are part of the deal.
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
Quote from: thinktank on November 11, 2010, 04:46:07 PM
The problem with your theory is that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.
:cloud9: Sort of like the scenario with Jesus and the man born blind, where the people asked Him, "Who did sin, this man or his parents?", and Jesus replied, "Neither. This was done to show the glory of God." Blessings....
How could a good God create a bad devil? How could a holy God create a wicked devil? How could the God of infinite love create a devil of utter hatred and viciousness, a murderer from the beginning? How could the God of all Truth create a devil who is a liar and the father of it, who never did, from the very beginning, have any truth in him? How could the God who IS LIGHT, and in whom there is no darkness at all, create a devil who is the Prince of the power of darkness?
There are untold millions of Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L T-H-I-N-G-S A-R-E O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect", then one of the "perfect" angels "made himself" into the devil, and that devil came in and wrecked the works of God's hands and so degraded God's beautiful and perfect creation that the Lord Almighty Himself was hard put to the test to discover some means to restore creation from the clutches of this wicked one. Why, oh why, can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says. "Surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word RA which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used!
But how could God do this? The answer is so simple, so plain, so basic, we blush and bow our heads with shame even for the asking! How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light! Anyone can perform this simple feat at any hour of the day or night. The sequence is totally correct, as we read in Isa. 45:7, "I FORM THE LIGHT, and create darkness." The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness. But the light came first, and therefore is always able to swallow up the darkness into light itself again. "The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out" (Jn. 1:5, Phillips). The light will always conquer darkness, but darkness shall never conquer light. But to create darkness - it is only necessary to withdraw the light!
Another illustration: Life is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life. Death witnesses to how great LIFE really is! But life will not tell you anything at all about death, for as long as there be life, death is non-existent. But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Now, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements. God withheld light. He withheld truth. He withheld life. In the same way a hormonal imbalance in a human being can cause excruciating pain, sickness, stunted growth, vicious temper, mental illness, or create a psychopathic killer - so a SPIRITUAL or PSYCHICAL deficiency or imbalance produces a spiritually deranged personality out of character with the perfect nature of God. — Eby
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW12.htm
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 11, 2010, 05:42:04 PM
There are untold millions of Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L T-H-I-N-G-S A-R-E O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect",
Yes, nothing was ever made perfect as God to begin with. Our creation is a process from infancy to maturity. what we perceive as evil is real because it affects and how we think and react and feel, but it is not of God as a choice he made when another option was available, this is what retains his righteous nature. A God who would cause a rapist to rape when indeed the limitless being could have chosen for something else is not of a righteous character.
It is of God because there is no other entity in which creation originated, but it is not of Gods character of choosing. It is how things must be in our infancy because that is the "Nature" of our path.
Quote from: shawn on November 11, 2010, 08:33:01 AM
Taking offense is a luxury which stronger men than myself may endulge. When our egos cause us to miss the bigger picture it's time to reevaluate our motives for debate. :2c:
Following in the Master's footsteps, I take the offense for you — not as luxury — but privilege.
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
preston Eby
But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?
Just like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.
Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?
A good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.
Isiah 45
With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:thou hast said, none seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
10 therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth:and mischief shall fall upon thee.......
I find this a consistent theme throughout that those who do wickedly reap evil, but those that do good reap goodness. So for us to be in this wicked world we must have done evil but Jesus did not do evil and came down to this world to be among thieves and robbers in order to save them who desire to partake of the glory to come.
:2c:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 11, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on November 11, 2010, 07:20:20 PM
But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
preston Eby
But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?
Just like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.
Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?
A good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.
Isiah 45
With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:thou hast said, none seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
10 therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth:and mischief shall fall upon thee.......
I find this a consistent theme throughout that those who do wickedly reap evil, but those that do good reap goodness. So for us to be in this wicked world we must have done evil but Jesus did not do evil and came down to this world to be among thieves and robbers in order to save them who desire to partake of the glory to come.
:2c:
It can be looked at several ways, I don't know too many people that do not find being accountable for what one does objectionable until they want to get out of suffering the consequenses of what they have done. LOL
However, there is also an aspect that we can contemplate and that is when our actions affect someone indirectly. For instance I can drive a car off the road in an attempt to kill myself and then as I am doing this I strike someone else in the process, I personally never intended to do that, I only had the thought concerning doing harm to myself. Let's say I succeed, some would argue that God used what I did to kill two birds with one stone.
I personally do not believe anything evil in this physical world has anything to do with Gods plan for punishment. The law of reaping what we sow also includes being accountable for the harm we cause others.
We have the ability to choose to harm someone minding thier own business and contrary to poipular teaching it could be Mts Faithful sunday school teacher that this happened to. Our devotion to God does not gaurantee our physical safety.
This is the fallacy, if you remained safe, then yout good and faithful to God, if you get hurt then your have been a baddy, it just isn't how things really work. It is actually the pagan idea that you have to appease the angry God with sacrifice at work.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 11, 2010, 05:42:04 PMHow can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light!
.....
The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness.
.
God bara/created darkness. Bara is making something out none existant materials. Darkness is 'unknown' to God so He had to create it.
God 1utzr/made light. He just 'cut off a piece of Himself
QuoteLife is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life.
Basicly the same answer as above. If God is life death is unknown by Him so it has to be created.
QuoteNow, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements.
This makes me think of man is the image of God.
A better translation seems to be "created in the outline of" or perhaps more relevant in this topic "is the shadow of"
Shadow is darkness. We are all dark/veiled.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on November 11, 2010, 07:20:20 PM
But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?
God works in mysterious ways for sure. If banning evil is His top priority why didn't He kill the serpent in the graden of Eden? The serpent just grew stronger and stronger. 4000 years later He sent His Son. To die. Why not somply kill that serpent...
Unless there are billions of serpents....
QuoteJust like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.
But both are children of God.
QuoteAnother problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?
If you never learn anything then the answer is yes :winkgrin:
QuoteA good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.
You can ask that question in any topic.
I can just as well ask if you think it's possible that the saints that entered heaven will sin within 5 billion years.
QuoteIsiah 45
With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10
I agree God reacts with punishment when people do the wrong things. But it's also clear people are veiled. Even Jesus said that we hav eno clue about what we are doing.
So it's not so black and white.
Using your SAS example. If the commando slaughters 20 children by the orders of his commander; who did commit evil?
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2010, 08:52:38 PM
Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?
If you never learn anything then the answer is yes :winkgrin:
lol.
Found this I believe it may help to understand somewhat.
Goodness is a strange thing when we consider the world where evil comes so natural, and wherein lies entropy--the second law of thermodynamics; which is, "The downward spiral of all things, living as well as inanimate, toward perpetual decay and randomness." Entropy describes a fact that takes place everywhere in the universe. It has a grip on the smallest atom to the greatest galaxy. Until an opposing force is introduced, it has an influence upon and control of all things. Put simply, entropy is the law of sin and death. It is void of the righteousness of God. But we praise Him; for with His righteous Son, the opposite law of the Spirit of Life in Him cannot and will not allow entropy to exist forever. This, of course, is one reason there is good in the world. It counteracts the evil that awards the world with so much pain, sorrow, suffering, and death. Margit once said, love is the very initiation and force that counteracts entropy. It is love that keeps the law of entropy from destroying a family. Love counteracts the natural law of sin and death. Love builds and makes strong the family, and likewise with God and the universe. His love will preserve and make it all whole.
Entropy is a mathematical factor which is a measure of the unavailable energy in a thermodynamic system. Entropy is from two Greek words, en trope. En is our English, in, and trope means turning. Therefore, entropy is an inturning. It speaks of a selfish retaining that will not release its energy for use. Having no entropy is to have no selfishness, which a character of total availability, total spendability. People having no entropy is more rare in the world than those consumed by it who always turn inwardly and selfishly retain unto themselves. Rather freely giving, they are greedily receiving of all things. Those who are void of selfish entropy have no shadows. Their lives are open books for all to read. They do not turn away from humanity, they are not centered upon their own interests, while the lives of their families and others are sucked from them.
(From "Deadly Poison" by Elwin Roach and The Pathfinder)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 11, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 12, 2010, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 11, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.
Set this one aside for the moment;
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 01:06:18 AM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 12, 2010, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 11, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.
Set this one aside for the moment; Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
:thumbsup:
I'll go through the list and give interpretations of what these are saying beneath the semantics -
according to my understanding.
QuoteAmos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Calamity.
QuoteEcclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Sorrowful task.
QuoteIsaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Two possible ideas.
a. Hitler was a baby once too.
b. This one is more a doctor, than a devil. (it wasn't the devil who took back the life God gave from the first born of Egypt) Or the destroyer whom God might rebuke (an agent who enforces the law of reaping and sowing via obedience)
QuoteIsaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
God is an all consuming fire - someone who is holy will revel in its glory, someone who is wicked will feel the pain of being consumed; people recoil from pain, people turtle up, people harden themselves against impact.
QuoteJob 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
A thing to consider; Job was chastised later by God for much of what he said.
Happiness, peace, and prosperity (good) is contrastable by Sorrow, pain, and trials (evil in the King James' sense, which has a dual meaning; that of "Woe")
QuoteJoshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Woeful, Sorrowful, Painful, "Trialeous" - but none of this implies wickedness, or sin, or iniquity.
QuoteLam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Happiness, peace, prosperity - sorrow, pain, and trial; woe.
QuoteProverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Hitler was once an innocent baby. As was Pharaoh.
QuoteRomans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
See one of my earlier posts on single individuals being that lump, and not mutually exclusive.
QuoteRomans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
CLV Ro 11:32 For *God locks up *all together into(in) stubbornness, that He should be |merciful to *all.
YLT Ro 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
AV Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.Mostly an aesthetic difference, but different none the less. Unbelief is different from outright disobedience. Unbelief carries something along the idea of;
"I'll stop drinking when I see proof that it harms my liver"
Disobedience carries;
"I'll drink infront of your face! Just because I want to and you don't want me to."
:cloud9: Pretty plain, to me...... :thumbsup:
I don't see how it is even possible for God to create sin if it is not first a thing existent in his own heart. That was/is the grief in my own heart over the whole issue.
It would be a denial of the counsel of the scriptures to say that God can create something that doesn't come out of his own heart - or say something that is not out of his heart.
No one, not even God of whom we are in his image - makes anything or expresses anything that does not come from the "inner" self, or heart. And to curtail ahead of time the response that might surely be on its way..."God can do anything! God can do the impossible! God can make something that doesn't even have anything to do with his inner being!"
"God isn't the god of ludicrous behaviour, and ludicrous inability to relate to - that includes our creative processes" If he were not, we would have very little in common at all with the deity of whom we are supposed to be likening, being after his image made.
So, since evil (sin) did not come from God, who is Holy, and cannot come out of God who is Holy - it must be woe, or calamity. We cannot legitimately call God the author of sin, without making him the very Devil himself. To make God the author of sin, is to make Christianity into Satanism.
Now, for Jabcat's questions;
QuoteWho did?
No one created it ex'nihilo - sin isn't a "thing" it is a principle to describe distance from perfection. Missing the mark, is to be distant from it. Sin isn't a mark in itself, there is only one mark, and only one hitting it, all else is missing it.
Sin is the empty nothingness around the target, it was not "created", it is simply a part of truth in the same way that when God created heat, he did not create "cold" cold simply became a matter of "distance" from heat, or the lessening of it.
That is why if you break even one of the laws of God, you've broken it all, because in matters of Holiness - "close" only exists in grenades and horseshoes. If you've missed the mark, your dart sails past into the nothingness that is emptiness - sin.
QuoteAnd if someone else did;
a) where's the clear Biblical proof
b) what does that still say about God's role in it?
For instance, if He "only" created a being who would then create it, and at the same time create mankind who would choose to do those things and/or be affected, even killed by them
These I don't think are relevant providing that sin isn't a creation at all - but a "by-principle" that comes with Holiness. When you set up a mark, or a target, the principle of missing that target comes with it.
Quotea) did He not know what was going to happen
b) was powerless to do anything about it
c) satan's in control of it for now and God's waiting to fix it,
d) God wasn't surprised, intended it for a bigger purpose and knew the results, how He would use it, and guarantee the outcome?
a) He knew. Hence the slain lamb before the foundation of the world.
b) Slain lamb
c) Not "waiting" but actively working through the process. He's destroying the devil's work even as we speak, and was doing so even in times past. He's doing surgery on the earth even as the disease spreads - he could certainly stop the disease immediately, but he'd have to kill the patient, but time through time, and miracle by miracle - he is preparing the way to completely cure the patient when it has become stable enough to continue into the next phase of treatment.
Christ is after all...the Great Physician, and his purpose is to destroy the works of the devil; Hence, it makes sense he works like a doctor to do so.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 01:06:18 AM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 12, 2010, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 11, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on November 11, 2010, 05:10:36 PM
What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.
:girlheart:
The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight. That is why he cuts down evil. :gangel:
Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.
Set this one aside for the moment; Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Those are some great verses, but as with any subject we can find it convenient to expect the literal reading to be truth on one hand while expecting a spiritual metaphor to attach to others.
Such as this one.
Hb 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Excerpts from Thomas Kissinger, from The Noble Berean; http://abidinghopefellowship.org/teachings/nobleberean.pdf
(Some terminology left out to keep within the forum guidelines).
The act of Adam's disobedience in his partaking of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil (his carnal mind) was just a result of being lowered
(his subjection to failure and unreality) into the soulish realm by God.
Many will ask the question...How can you say these things about God?
The answer is simple. This is what the Bible actually teaches about the
fall of man. I am simply repeating what the Bible states. Others would
ask...Why would God do this to the human race?
Well...Let us go back to Romans 8:19-22. It tells us that God did this
in hope, knowing beforehand that all those who were subjected to this
vanity would be delivered from their bondage by the ministry and
manifestation of the sons of God. In essence, God had predetermined
to subject all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all through
the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 11:32). The cross of the
Lord Jesus Christ was not an afterthought of God, but it was the very
foundation and focal point of His entire purpose of the ages. Revelation
13:8 as well as 1st Peter 1:20 tell us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world! This tells us that everything was built
on the slain Lamb (Jesus Christ). God wanted the world to see Him as
their Savior. The only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior. So...God did just that, for we know that
all have sinned (missed the mark of God's nature) and come short of
the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
This can also be seen by applying the
story of Job to the human race. Job was minding his own business when
God asked Satan...Have you considered My servant Job? The rest of the
story shows us that it was God Who subjected Job to everything that he
went through. It tells us in Job 42:11 that it was the Lord Who was the
One Who brought evil upon Job. AMAZING! Have you ever thought
about that? Why did the Lord do this to Job? Our answer is to be found
in Job 42:5 and 42:12. These verses tell us that Job had only heard of the
Lord, but was now (because of everything that he went through) able to
see (understand) the Lord. As well, verse 12 tells us that Job's latter end
was more blessed than his beginning. And so shall it be with the human
race. We shall all be able to see (understand) the Lord and our latter
end shall be more blessed than our beginning as a result of having been
subjected to the vanity that God has placed us in. What an AMAZING
GOD that we serve!
From the excerpt.
QuoteThe only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior.
Does Thomas Kissinger in his writings talk about God being limited in some manner?
I really don't think so, but I'm not positive. I've read different things of his, and by far mostly understand things the same as he, but that's not to say I know all about his writings.
Here's an interesting article if anyone cares to look at it. IMO, it has at least some similarities to what you and Lefein have been saying, albeit s/w different perhaps in some areas. I do appreciate his "struggle"/uncertainty about some of it. :2c:
http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 06:58:03 AM
I really don't think so, but I'm not positive. I've read different things of his, and by far mostly understand things the same as he, but that's not to say I know all about his writings.
Here's an interesting article if anyone cares to look at it. IMO, it has at least some similarities to what you and Lefein have been saying, albeit s/w different perhaps in some areas. I do appreciate his "struggle"/uncertainty about some of it. :2c:
http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html
Just asking, it is one thing to be realistic no matter the "cause" and understand that humans learn a certain way and cannot understand good with out knowing the contrasts and all that. It is another to suggest that God being unlimited, was then left with only one option. ;) Of course, that is the hard part, to see that when our mind admits to what we see as a limitation of God it is a testamony to his purity of righteousness. Not saying I see "better" just believe i must be honest about what I do see and not pretend to be at any place I am not actually at. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 06:58:03 AM
http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html
I'll take a look at the link when i get a chance, bed time for me.
:thumbsup:
The word is sharper than a two-edged, literally, a "two-mouthed" sWORD (and it cuts both ways!)
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 02:15:13 AM
I'll go through the list and give interpretations of what these are saying beneath the semantics - according to my understanding.
Most verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.
QuoteIsaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
QuoteQuoteJob 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
A thing to consider; Job was chastised later by God for much of what he said.
Happiness, peace, and prosperity (good) is contrastable by Sorrow, pain, and trials (evil in the King James' sense, which has a dual meaning; that of "Woe")
Perhaps Job wasn't the most smartest man of history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.
QuoteQuoteProverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Hitler was once an innocent baby. As was Pharaoh.
So pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?
QuoteQuoteRomans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
See one of my earlier posts on single individuals being that lump, and not mutually exclusive.
Same lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.
QuoteQuoteRomans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
CLV Ro 11:32 For *God locks up *all together into(in) stubbornness, that He should be |merciful to *all.
YLT Ro 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
AV Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Mostly an aesthetic difference, but different none the less. Unbelief is different from outright disobedience. Unbelief carries something along the idea of;
"I'll stop drinking when I see proof that it harms my liver"
Disobedience carries;
"I'll drink infront of your face! Just because I want to and you don't want me to."
The second word of all those translations is the key (in this discussion)
God actively/willingly/purposefully did that to 'all'.
And again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.
Quote WW; Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us [sin]. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
This is a very interesting statement Tony. I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above. Because certainly, a part of me wants to say "of course God didn't create sin. It must be just calamity ". But then what you say above gives pause for more thought...
In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity. It's hard to understand, for sure. God give us wisdom.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 05:06:12 AM
I don't see how it is even possible for God to create sin if it is not first a thing existent in his own heart. That was/is the grief in my own heart over the whole issue.
With God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.
So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.
QuoteIt would be a denial of the counsel of the scriptures to say that God can create something that doesn't come out of his own heart - or say something that is not out of his heart.
The 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.
QuoteNo one, not even God of whom we are in his image
Image=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.
Quote"God isn't the god of ludicrous behaviour, and ludicrous inability to relate to - that includes our creative processes" If he were not, we would have very little in common at all with the deity of whom we are supposed to be likening, being after his image made.
Most of creation is deep into sin.
a] There is more that one creator. God created a handful of good things and satan the rest.
b] God created everything good. At least that was His intention. History proves His toys all have design flaws and malfunction.
c] Perhaps each and every atom behaves according to design.
I opt for c.
QuoteSo, since evil (sin) did not come from God, who is Holy, and cannot come out of God who is Holy - it must be woe, or calamity. We cannot legitimately call God the author of sin, without making him the very Devil himself. To make God the author of sin, is to make Christianity into Satanism.
Hitler got Fathers breath of life.....
QuoteSin is the empty nothingness around the target, it was not "created", it is simply a part of truth in the same way that when God created heat, he did not create "cold" cold simply became a matter of "distance" from heat, or the lessening of it.
But He did create the distance.
He choose to use a limited amount of heat in His creation.
QuoteThese I don't think are relevant providing that sin isn't a creation at all - but a "by-principle" that comes with Holiness. When you set up a mark, or a target, the principle of missing that target comes with it.
A by product is still part of creation.
QuoteQuotea) did He not know what was going to happen
b) was powerless to do anything about it
c) satan's in control of it for now and God's waiting to fix it,
d) God wasn't surprised, intended it for a bigger purpose and knew the results, how He would use it, and guarantee the outcome?
a) He knew. Hence the slain lamb before the foundation of the world.
b) Slain lamb
c) Not "waiting" but actively working through the process. He's destroying the devil's work even as we speak, and was doing so even in times past.
a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.
QuoteChrist is after all...the Great Physician, and his purpose is to destroy the works of the devil; Hence, it makes sense he works like a doctor to do so.
It makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 09:03:39 AM
Quote WW; Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
This is a very interesting statement Tony. I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above.
In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity. I DON'T KNOW for sure, different people say different things about it. But IF that's true, it may fit your statement above. It's hard to understand, for sure.
I think I agree with Craig. But even if it just mean calamity it shows Father (also) has active control over the bad things in life. So all the bad doesn't come from satan only.
Also, to say God's just sort of hacking away at it a little at a time, trying to cut down evil - and He'll eventually get it done - something about that just doesn't seem right to me. I see God as being more in control than that, that He hasn't lost control over anything - that whatever He does is according to plan. And that even though we may not "get it", it's still a perfect plan when seen through His eyes with the view of eternity. :2c:
QuoteMost verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.
Evil is however, a word that has changed over time.
Take for example the word "Compass" it used to mean "woo" as well as "surround". Now it is a tool for magnetic direction.
QuoteThis verse clearly states God makes us is. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
I'd interpret it differently.
The presence of Yahweh in his holiness, and his being as an all consuming fire will either make a man joyful, make him repent, or make a man recoil into himself even further out of pride.
You can look a the typical child to see this sort of example in the land of the living.
A parent chastises him in his presence, and a child might get obstinate and get even worse. The parent's presence had that effect, however the parent did not twist the boy's arm to make him do it - the boy did it on his own accord.
That is the central truth of the passage, the Spirit beneath the Letter.
QuotePerhaps Job wasn't the most smartest man of history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.
Indeed, because God knew his own intentions in the scheme he'd probably (likely) long planned for ahead of time, before the Devil even had the bright idea of it - An intent that probably sounded in the mind of God a bit like; "I'll make him twice the better than the Devil would have him fall."
QuoteSo pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?
No. Should we blame DaVinci if a large bucket of stain remover spills on it in the Lurve (however it is spelt, silly french lol) and messes up the painting?
To be able to be marred, or corrupted is not a design flaw.
But for God to have made something purposefully corrupted, is a flaw in God himself.
QuoteSame lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.
Did God invent/express-into-being the act, and idea of sinning, and its methods? If so - these proceeded from the abundance of his heart.
Knowing this (if this is the truth that God created sin), the Bible is contradictory to the nature of God's character if that is the truth in what it says; that God invented iniquity.
However, I believe the interpretation must be wrong, because the Bible says that God is Holy, and Love, and so that must be abundantly in his heart, and righteousness, perfect righteousness in a just heart can have no stain, nor imagination stained.
Remember that God did not command, nor did it ever enter into his mind that the children of Israel should sacrifice their babies to Molech.
This means that God does not twist a man's arm to sin, and neither did he invent it - because something came across in his creation that he did not express into being to be done, though he knew of it, it did not enter his mind; which is to say;
"I had nothing to do with your stupidity in doing this!"
CLV Jer 32:35
And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.QuoteThe second word of all those translations is the key (in this discussion)
God actively/willingly/purposefully did that to 'all'.
And again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.
If God does it, then it has entered his heart to do so - and he is not Holy.
God must be Holy, and for God to be Holy - there can be no iniquity found in him, or expressed by him in any manifestation.
This is why Applied Calvinism carries the same flaw as Calvinism carries with Hell. Because Hell, thinking now from a church point of view - is separation from God first and foremost. The Bible says that sin is the cause of separation from God.
CLV Isa 59:2
But rather your depravities become a separation between you and your Elohim. And your sins conceal His face from you, from hearing you.So, here we have it this way;
Sin = Separation from God
Hell = Separation from God
Sin = Hell
(And indeed any man knows that when he is neck deep in sin, he is "in his own Hell" and he knows that it certainly "hurts like Hell")
So for God to in a Calvinistic means; "Send some to bliss, and the rest to Hell" we call this evil.
It is the same thing when it comes to God causing the many to sin, because by that causing of man to sin - he is sending them into separation from God, which can indeed be called Hell. Or if you want to have a more Universalist approach; The sting of Death is sin, and sin causes Death - so for God to cause a man to sin, is to separate him from Life which is Him, separating the man from God - and so the man is sent into Death, Sheol.
QuoteWith God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.
So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.
But God cannot lie, nor sin, nor create it. Unless it is in his heart.
Death is distance, absence from life - not a thing. The idea of Death depends on Life, in the same way that even nothingness would not exist, without somethingness.
Holes aren't things just because we have terms to describe them. None of us can pick up a hole, and none of us can carry a handful of Death.
The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.
The same with Light, if I turn off the lights in my room I am not suddenly hit with dark-waves, or dark-particles. Darkness has no substance, neither does hate, neither does death, neither does cold, neither does a lie.
Create is a funny idea in itself, and words are limited in their capacity to express the fullness of truth - Groanings which cannot be uttered.
Light when turned on, is said to create, or cast shadows. However, shadows are merely areas where light is lacking.
QuoteThe 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.
If the interpretation is that "God does evil/iniquity" then God is no better than us, Satan, or worse. And unfortunately for Christianity - and the universe, and even universalism - makes him unfit to worship, because he has lied when he said he is perfect and Holy.
There must be a different interpretation, because God cannot express any form of imperfection, imperfection of the sort that is 'sin' - of which is missing the mark, missing the mark is imperfection.
QuoteImage=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.
Why should we be anything less than the image of our Father, and likeness? Why should we be a shadow?
Darkness is not linked to sin, it is linked to disorder, chaos, and woe. Sin in all of its nothingness just so happens to breed in this environment which is better suited to driving a man home to warmth and safety where the lamp is always lit.
Some people love the dark, because they think they can hide their own emptiness, and nakedness there, rather than in the light where order is absolute.
The counsel of the scriptures must be consistent, and so it is that if the mouth speaks the abundance of the heart - then for God to express iniquity is to make him imperfect.
There must be a different interpretation, or else God is not God, and we have been fooled.
QuoteMost of creation is deep into sin.
a] There is more that one creator. God created a handful of good things and satan the rest.
b] God created everything good. At least that was His intention. History proves His toys all have design flaws and malfunction.
c] Perhaps each and every atom behaves according to design.
You forgot a whole myriad of other options, for you say that God can do the impossible, it is possible then that God created everything good, and intends to make it glorious. It is possible then for God to do this without having to settle for your three options. It is possible then, for God to do it in the way of option D);
D) God created everything Good, and intends to make it Glorious - he will do this by shaking out, burning out the possibilities for imperfection, or "immunise" existence, sin is one of these possible imperfections that arose, and which he predicted, and by various processes like the sacrifice of his very own begotten son, the expression of himself, and himself incarnate - is destroying the works of the devil, and making everything beautiful in His due time.
God is not mocked, and so neither will he mock. God will shake Heaven and Earth so that everything that is not incorruptible will be cast into non-existence even as an idea or a thought, because his creation will have gone through the sickness - and become immune to any future infections of it.
Yes, it is according to God's design...But not by God being dirty or defecting from his character as Holy, righteous, and perfect.
It is possible indeed for God to do D), and I personally believe that is the more truthful of the options.
QuoteHitler got Fathers breath of life.....
So did you, and I - we are not any less sinless than Hitler. But it was not God who made Hitler sinful, he did that on his own accord.
Unless God plays soldiers, or is a divine ventriloquist...but that discussion is probably not allowed, so I will not press it further than a mention.
Really it boils down to this;
Do we worship a God who out of the abundance of his heart made evil, and causes everything wrong in the world to happen, just because he is,
must be shown to be absolutely sovereign?
Or.
Do we worship a God who out of the abundance of his heart made good, and so by his sovereignty, and sovereign power will shake out every wrong possibility, and immunise it from future infections as diseases may arise via his glorifying purposes - Glorification, and Perfection, not merely "good" being his intent in the first place, and doing all of this, all the while remaining holy?
QuoteA by product is still part of creation.
A by-principle is not a by-product.
For all intents and purposes, Sin is nothing more than vapour ware, a product that doesn't exist, will never exist, and yet a product that people continue to pre-order and buy, hoping it will fulfill their needs, and wants - finding it fails utterly short in doing so, because a "nothing" cannot satisfy a hunger for "something".
Quote
a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.
Your false premise is that if God created a creation that could fall, it was flawed. His intent was not a good creation, but a perfect creation which has yet to come.
Adam was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or else he would have been under Grace and not cast out of God's presence, so that right there shows us that God did not create Creation as perfect.
Creation was made an infant, a beautiful and innocent infant. But infants can get diseases, and sicknesses, and must build up an immunity if that infant is to be a healthy adult.
God intends to immunise the good infant, to be a healthy, perfect adult who is immune to the possibility of sin ever coming back into creation.
When God has perfected all - then Death and Hades, the places of containment, and the principle of distance from God who is Life - absence of Life, shall be consumed by God who is an all consuming fire.
The disease itself, the cancer, and the empty belly of the spirit that lacks in the living bread - shall be burned, and filled; and hence removed from possibility.
QuoteIt makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.
Sure, if he must force his children to live in self-containing bubbles, prisons.
God wants freedom in his creation, not imprisonment to what might possibly arise. God is a father who wants the best for his children, and the best here is not merely "good and innocent" the best is Glorious and Perfect, which requires that they must be incorruptible as God is, and so they must be immune to corruption, the only way for that to be so...is that they be immunised, and for God to shake out, or burn away even the very possibility of being infected, to build them up above all corruptability. This cannot happen if God is content to merely prevent, to give men less than his best offer, to bubble them in sterile conditions.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 10:14:13 AM
QuoteMost verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.
Evil is however, a word that has changed over time.
Take for example the word "Compass" it used to mean "woo" as well as "surround". Now it is a tool for magnetic direction.
Ok, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.
QuoteQuoteThis verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
I'd interpret it differently.
The presence of Yahweh in his holiness, and his being as an all consuming fire will either make a man joyful, make him repent, or make a man recoil into himself even further out of pride.
You can look a the typical child to see this sort of example in the land of the living.
A parent chastises him in his presence, and a child might get obstinate and get even worse. The parent's presence had that effect, however the parent did not twist the boy's arm to make him do it - the boy did it on his own accord.
That is the central truth of the passage, the Spirit beneath the Letter.
So the people speaking that verse are making false claims.
You should be we.
QuoteQuotePerhaps Job wasn't the smartest man in history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.
Indeed, because God knew his own intentions in the scheme he'd probably (likely) long planned for ahead of time, before the Devil even had the bright idea of it - An intent that probably sounded in the mind of God a bit like; "I'll make him twice the better than the Devil would have him fall."
So because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)
QuoteQuoteSo pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?
No. Should we blame DaVinci if a large bucket of stain remover spills on it in the Lurve (however it is spelt, silly french lol) and messes up the painting?
To be able to be marred, or corrupted is not a design flaw.
So God created stain remover = satan.
QuoteBut for God to have made something purposefully corrupted, is a flaw in God himself.
No. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.
QuoteQuoteSame lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.
Did God invent/express-into-being the act, and idea of sinning, and its methods? If so - these proceeded from the abundance of his heart.
Knowing this (if this is the truth that God created sin), the Bible is contradictory to the nature of God's character if that is the truth in what it says; that God invented iniquity.
However, I believe the interpretation must be wrong, because the Bible says that God is Holy, and Love, and so that must be abundantly in his heart, and righteousness, perfect righteousness in a just heart can have no stain, nor imagination stained.
The Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
You potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.
QuoteRemember that God did not command, nor did it ever enter into his mind that the children of Israel should sacrifice their babies to Molech.
He didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that
evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?
QuoteThis means that God does not twist a man's arm to sin, and neither did he invent it - because something came across in his creation that he did not express into being to be done, though he knew of it, it did not enter his mind; which is to say;
Tell that to the judge that sentence me for jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.
QuoteQuoteAnd again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.
If God does it, then it has entered his heart to do so - and he is not Holy.
Are you setting the guidelines for God?
Lots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom
QuoteQuoteGod must be Holy, and for God to be Holy - there can be no iniquity found in him, or expressed by him in any manifestation.
What is holy? Not breaking rules of God? What if those rules are mostly for us? All 10 commandments are for us to follow. Not for Him.
QuoteThis is why Applied Calvinism carries the same flaw as Calvinism carries with Hell. Because Hell, thinking now from a church point of view - is separation from God first and foremost. The Bible says that sin is the cause of separation from God.
Then perhaps it isn't just by chance that religion means reconnect.
CLV Isa 59:2
But rather your depravities become a separation between you and your Elohim. And your sins conceal His face from you, from hearing you.
So, here we have it this way;
Sin = Separation from God
Hell = Separation from God
Sin = Hell
The question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercey on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.
Quote(And indeed any man knows that when he is neck deep in sin, he is "in his own Hell" and he knows that it certainly "hurts like Hell")
So for God to in a Calvinistic means; "Send some to bliss, and the rest to Hell" we call this evil.
It is the same thing when it comes to God causing the many to sin, because by that causing of man to sin - he is sending them into separation from God, which can indeed be called Hell. Or if you want to have a more Universalist approach; The sting of Death is sin, and sin causes Death - so for God to cause a man to sin, is to separate him from Life which is Him, separating the man from God - and so the man is sent into Death, Sheol.
Maybe we are living in hell/LoF right now.... :mblush:
QuoteQuoteWith God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.
So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.
But God cannot lie, nor sin, nor create it. Unless it is in his heart.
imo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.
God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.
QuoteDeath is distance, absence from life - not a thing. The idea of Death depends on Life, in the same way that even nothingness would not exist, without somethingness.
Again you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.
QuoteHoles aren't things just because we have terms to describe them. None of us can pick up a hole, and none of us can carry a handful of Death.
And no one can force God out of him/herself.
The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.
QuoteCreate is a funny idea in itself, and words are limited in their capacity to express the fullness of truth - Groanings which cannot be uttered.
Light when turned on, is said to create, or cast shadows. However, shadows are merely areas where light is lacking.
QuoteThe 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.
If the interpretation is that "God does evil/iniquity" then God is no better than us, Satan, or worse. And unfortunately for Christianity - and the universe, and even universalism - makes him unfit to worship, because he has lied when he said he is perfect and Holy.
What's perfect? You might have another idea of perfection as Father.
In your eyes His ways are not perfect. Earth is a mess.
By perfect design?
Or overruled/outsmarted by mankind.
QuoteQuoteThere must be a different interpretation, because God cannot express any form of imperfection, imperfection of the sort that is 'sin' - of which is missing the mark, missing the mark is imperfection.
Unless ofcourse Adam and Eve eating from the tree was part of that perfection/perfect plan.
QuoteImage=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.
Why should we be anything less than the image of our Father, and likeness? Why should we be a shadow?
Ask Him....
When I look around I see lot's of shadows and dim lights.
QuoteThe counsel of the scriptures must be consistent, and so it is that if the mouth speaks the abundance of the heart - then for God to express iniquity is to make him imperfect.
In that case He's imperfect.
QuoteThere must be a different interpretation, or else God is not God, and we have been fooled.
Misunderstood is teh word I think.
QuoteD) God created everything Good, and intends to make it Glorious - he will do this by shaking out, burning out the possibilities for imperfection, or "immunise" existence, sin is one of these possible imperfections that arose, and which he predicted, and by various processes like the sacrifice of his very own begotten son, the expression of himself, and himself incarnate - is destroying the works of the devil, and making everything beautiful in His due time.
So God created imperfection. Otherwise He can't burn it out.
QuoteIt is possible indeed for God to do D), and I personally believe that is the more truthful of the options.
I think that option is gift wrapped in a veil :-)
QuoteQuoteHitler got Fathers breath of life.....
QuoteQuote
a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.
Your false premise is that if God created a creation that could fall,
It's your premise that's false Lefein.
It could not fall. I was designed to fall.
Quoteit was flawed. His intent was not a good creation, but a perfect creation which has yet to come.
I agree with that.
So Father willfully created something that falls short of His glory. For a reason.
So imperfection is part of the perfect plan.
God hold back the light. (main cause of sin)
QuoteAdam was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or else he would have been under Grace and not cast out of God's presence, so that right there shows us that God did not create Creation as perfect.
True. It also shows God actively choose Adam to fall. He choose to NOT indwell Adam.
Adam feel=sinned by design.
QuoteCreation was made an infant, a beautiful and innocent infant. But infants can get diseases, and sicknesses, and must build up an immunity if that infant is to be a healthy adult.
Sickness is a sign of crappy design.
QuoteGod intends to immunise the good infant, to be a healthy, perfect adult who is immune to the possibility of sin ever coming back into creation.
He intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty induvidual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.
QuoteWhen God has perfected all - then Death and Hades, the places of containment, and the principle of distance from God who is Life - absence of Life, shall be consumed by God who is an all consuming fire.
Agreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of aperfect plan.
QuoteQuoteIt makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.
Sure, if he must force his children to live in self-containing bubbles, prisons.
Really? I don't live in a bubble. I'm blessed with an iron immume system. I for example never had the flu in my whole life.
Illness is a crappy design of the immume system.
QuoteGod wants freedom in his creation, not imprisonment to what might possibly arise.
Then why he locks up all in disobedience?
QuoteGod is a father who wants the best for his children, and the best here is not merely "good and innocent" the best is Glorious and Perfect, which requires that they must be incorruptible as God is, and so they must be immune to corruption, the only way for that to be so...is that they be immunised, and for God to shake out, or burn away even the very possibility of being infected, to build them up above all corruptability. This cannot happen if God is content to merely prevent, to give men less than his best offer, to bubble them in sterile conditions.
And for that reason He created an enviorment filled with sin.
BTW I'm making progress. I'm called a Calvinist now. Who had thought that 2 years ago :Whistle:
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He never tempts any man:
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Whatever our paradigm, it must evolve to include all of the scriptures, without contradiction. Short of that, we see through a glass darkly, our understanding is deficient, and the exploration continues. Otherwise we have simply settled in a place that feels good to us for personal reasons that have nothing to do with pressing into Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.
"If you continue in My word you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2010, 05:22:30 PM
@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?
There were once 2 men. One of these men called John loved the lord and praised him. Another certain man called Peter also loved the lord and was part of tentville congregation.
One day John decided to join tentville, he regularly questioned their ideas.
The other members did not like this, they frowned upon him and his crazy ways and this sadened John.
Tentville:Thank the lord we are not like this man, this repobrate who doesn't even have faith as we do that all be saved, we are far wiser and nobler than this, unbeliver, who dares to question us.
John retained his composure, and opened not his mouth, but was sadened by their cold hearts.
God heard the cry of his heart
I will send my angel messanger.
So God sent Lefeiniel to deliver his message.
"Why are you casting this your brother from this congregation for claiming that God is good"
But as soon as he delivered this message the members of tentville began to lift up stones, if you or anyone speak evil of us or speak against us in future they shall be stoned without mercy, and they will not longer be permitted to enter the assembly.
The angel returned to God with the bad news
God was wroth, "If they reject my angel, then I shall send my only son, surely they will listen to him.
So GOD sent his son to tentville.
"The devil is a thief, liar and destroyer, but I came to give life and more abundantly"
The members of tentville reasoned within themselves, who are ye and whence comes thou, we know that God sent Moses, but as for this fellow we know not where he comes from, how could this man have created the devil. So they reasoned.
The son returned home.
GOD said "what happened"
They rejected my message, in favour of their tradditions.
GOD was wroth " If they do not listen to my loving son, then I shall send a sword of fire, that shall pierece their hard hearts.
After a while the 2 men died and went to heaven.
"why is John here, Peter man said, he said evil things about you lord, he said you were all good and had no evil, so I rebuked him and cast him out of the assembly". :sohappy:
As he looked on Gods puzzled face :gimpossible:, understanding and wisdom came to him and he fell on his face and wept for the evil he had done.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 09:03:39 AM
Quote WW; Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us [sin]. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.
This is a very interesting statement Tony. I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above. Because certainly, a part of me wants to say "of course God didn't create sin. It must be just calamity ". But then what you say above gives pause for more thought...
In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity. It's hard to understand, for sure. God give us wisdom.
The proposed clarity of the bible is an illusion. I have gone through trials that showed me why I will never do some things ever again if I actually have one speck of ability to decide not to. What I reject is that one, God made me do them in the first place, and two, under this idea of being made to sin I have absolutely no assurance that God won't then make me do it again.
Some have seemed to get upset that I dare suggest that about them, but it just goes to show that few people if any, now I realize that there are none, that actually believe God will one day in the future make them do a very horrible thing something horrible and unimaginable that they only read about "others" doing it. Oh it is easy to think God made someone else do something, yes.
They say they are "follower of Christ" so how dare I suggest such a thing. Yet, if true, as written, there is a verse that suggests exactly that.
Why don't I agree that these literal reading of the verses means what people think it means?
Simply because there is no glory or good news in it and it is of poor character and it is not good, so it is not of God.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2010, 09:29:19 AM
Also, to say God's just sort of hacking away at it a little at a time, trying to cut down evil - and He'll eventually get it done - something about that just doesn't seem right to me. I see God as being more in control than that, that He hasn't lost control over anything - that whatever He does is according to plan. And that even though we may not "get it", it's still a perfect plan when seen through His eyes with the view of eternity. :2c:
I cant agree with that. :thumbsup:
For me, I believe the Bible as the written Word of God. The Words that are written is The Word, God said He created evil (translate that anyway you desire to fit your thinking) the Truth that He said it, means He takes FULL responsibility for the outcome, that He will work out ALL for Good. I am going to leave it to Him to work it out.
Heb 11:1 And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Heb 11:2 for in this were the elders testified of;
Heb 11:3 by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;
We also have to make the contrast in scripture when a verse may be actually someone not wanting to take accountability for their actions.
Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, [and] hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants'sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
The context of this verse is surrounding a tribe that rebelled.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Maybe they also found it easier to blame God. Sure wasn't their fault. :laugh:
:cloud9: In the beginning was GOD......period. Everything that exists, exists by Him and for Him and His purposes. If it didn't, it simply wouldn't exist, as He is not impotent to do anything about it, therefore it exists for His purpose. The premise that it doesn't, is no different than the ones in Christiandom who have a great big powerful devil, and a "little bitty" God.
To be subjected as we have been, with Christ as the hope of glory, necessitated something that was NOT like Christ to be in bondage TO. The only reasonable answer to "why" that is, is that without what is NOT like Christ, one cannot KNOW Christ by experience and learn to choose Christ. And I'm not talking about "mouthing the words of initial confession" choosing Christ, here, I'm saying perceiving Him in all things, which brings about a complete change eventually, ie. metamorphoo-ed, knowing Him as Adam knew His wife and they were one.
What is not being taken into account here, is that the Word is multi-faceted as well as multi-leveled, as Jacob's ladder showed. It is perfectly capable of speaking to all men on whatever level of understanding they have been brought to. Thus we can have a scripture like, "Resist the devil and he will flee" and "Agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him", that offer contradictory appearing instructions.
But since we are being trained to not judge evil and good in the same way Eve did, ie. by APPEARANCES and the desires of the flesh, we have to press in beyond that to gain the wisdom of the SPIRIT, which is above and not sensual or able to be discerned by the senses.
And so the difference is in where you are in your walk with Him, because both scriptures are absolutely true, but as long as this earth exists (and we are "earth"/flesh also) then also will seedtime and harvest exist = SEASONS. A season is also a level of experience of both the good and the evil. When there is no flesh left to kill, there is no need for seasons. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: eaglesway on November 12, 2010, 03:43:48 PM
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He never tempts any man:
Whatever our paradigm, it must evolve to include all of the scriptures, without contradiction. Short of that, we see through a glass darkly, our understanding is deficient, and the exploration continues. Otherwise we have simply settled in a place that feels good to us for personal reasons that have nothing to do with pressing into Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.
Good verse!
May view should be clear by now. So no need to repeat it.
Two questions for you:
a] Do you see contradictions between certain verses discussed in this topic?
b] If yes; have you solved the contradictions in some way?
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 04:40:07 PM
:cloud9: In the beginning was GOD......period. Everything that exists, exists by Him and for Him and His purposes. If it didn't, it simply wouldn't exist, as He is not impotent to do anything about it, therefore it exists for His purpose. The premise that it doesn't, is no different than the ones in Christiandom who have a great big powerful devil, and a "little bitty" God.
Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.
Quote from: thinktank on November 10, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.
This is the post to which I replied, TTank, that you either do not read or believe the Scriptures. Nothing more; nothing less.
For it is written:
Colossians 1:17
New International Version (©1984)
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
New Living Translation (©2007)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
International Standard Version (©2008)
He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He existed before everything and holds everything together.
King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
American King James Version
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
American Standard Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Bible in Basic English
He is before all things, and in him all things have being.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
Darby Bible Translation
And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him.
English Revised Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Webster's Bible Translation
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Weymouth New Testament
And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.
World English Bible
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
Young's Literal Translation
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 04:51:14 PM
Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.
:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"
The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My :2c: Blessings....
I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.
:cloud9: Just like the Master who had all He was given taken away from Him the same way.......and the servant is not greater than the master. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 04:51:14 PM
Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.
:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"
The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My :2c: Blessings....
That is fine, but so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil.
Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now? That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.
If it is all good what the Lord does then that should sound like good news if it were to happen. I have met no one that actually feel s good about it, however under this style of belief where no matter what God does it is good, then absolutely anything goes.
He could even lie and it would be good.
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 05:31:23 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 04:51:14 PM
Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.
:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"
The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My :2c: Blessings....
That is fine, but so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil.
Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now? That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.
If it is all good what the Lord does then that should sound like good news if it were to happen. I have met no one that actually feel s good about it, however under this style of belief where no matter what God does it is good, then absolutely anything goes.
He could even lie and it would be good.
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
I have felt what it's like to have Him take the hand of His Spirit from off me (and as bad as it was, I doubt it was COMPLETELY off), for only a few hours for His teaching purposes, and it's unimaginable, and entirely in the realm of possibility to be capable of anything. It's ONLY the hand of His Spirit keeping the evil in check at all, both in us and around ANY of us, just as He told the waters to go "here" and no further. Whether I stand or whether I fall, it's entirely up to Him. ALL sin is common to man, which means all men are "equiped" to do it all, even if it's only in their hearts. His taking His hand off someone, IS what allows the evil to proceed forth OUT OF THE HEART OF MAN, into visibility.
We don't have to do anything to die except be "normal". The purpose is to find life thru death, there is no other way. Death has a stinger, and that stinger is sin. We have all been stung by it, and all will die like men until they learn to die like "gods". Have I not said ye are gods and yet ye die like men? How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than he lay his life down for his friends. Abraham was God's friend, because he laid his life (from his loins, his promised son) down.
In the same way, we have to lay down everything He has given us and be willing to receive "evil" from the Lord, like Job said. The difference is in how we perceive the motive; the motive, like Him, is perfect, it's our perception of it that's off. ALL things work together for good, for those that love the Lord. ALL things means, ALL THINGS. And it's not easy to see it that way, it is deliberately veiled by, and from our carnal minds, only receivable from the Spirit. My :2c: Blessings...
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 05:15:47 PM
I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.
The Lord knew Job's heart. And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion? I have heard that many times and it has never made sense. I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying.
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Exactly. God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion. So, there must be a deeper meaning to this story. I believe it lines up with what you are saying. It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God. I think it's easy for us to become discouraged when facing trials. I know for me it's easy for me to feel like God has lost love for me...that I have displeased him in some way. This is my carnal mind speaking because I know in my spirit that he will never let me go, that all things will be worked for my good. This has been evident through my life and God has never failed me or gone back on his word. If a man who is perfect and upright before God will be put through the fire, then I will be put through the fire as well. This story is a word of encouragement for those of us who are being dragged through the sanctification process.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
Nothing mythical about what I am proposing. What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning. I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.
If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,
I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 05:15:47 PM
I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.
The Lord knew Job's heart. And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion? I have heard that many times and it has never made sense. I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying.
If God didn't care about the devils opinion why did he grant him an audience?
Why did he answer his questions and grant his requests of removing his hand of protection from Job?
Why put this in the holy text if the devil has nothing to do with it?
The fact is that before this audience with the devil Job lived a perfect life before God, but after the devil incident with God, now Job is facing trials and difficulties. Why confuse the readers? Shouldn' t God have just dealt wth Job himself and left the devil out of the equation.
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Exactly. God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion. So, there must be a deeper meaning to this story. I believe it lines up with what you are saying. It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God. I think it's easy for us to become discouraged when facing trials. I know for me it's easy for me to feel like God has lost love for me...that I have displeased him in some way. This is my carnal mind speaking because I know in my spirit that he will never let me go, that all things will be worked for my good. This has been evident through my life and God has never failed me or gone back on his word. If a man who is perfect and upright before God will be put through the fire, then I will be put through the fire as well. This story is a word of encouragement for those of us who are being dragged through the sanctification process.
:cloud9: Amen.......and look at Job's confession after the ordeal......
Job 42:5 KJV
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear (inner court): but now mine eye seeth (Holy of Holies) thee.
Sound familiar?
1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Have to leave for awhile......Blessings....
"Evil" can be as contextual as "good". Cutting someone open is never really "good" - but may be a necessary "evil" to perform a life-giving medical procedure. in any of the passages you cite (thank you) can we say that the "evil" spoken of is absolutely, essentially evil?
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
It appears that Satan was already there on the same earth as Job and you and I.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God approaches Satan first! He did not grant Satan an audience.
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Exactly. God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion.
Neither will He be tricked into something by satan. Satan never has good intentions but still it seems God liked satans idea because He agreed.
Likely God agreed because He wanted improve Job.
Satan likely aimed for destruction. Even death but God didn't allow that.
Evil for good and bad intend.
QuoteSo, there must be a deeper meaning to this story. I believe it lines up with what you are saying. It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God.
YLTMark 949 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
50 The salt is good, but if the salt may become saltless, in what will ye season it ? Have in yourselves salt, and have peace in one another.'
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 05:15:47 PM
I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.
The Lord knew Job's heart. And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion? I have heard that many times and it has never made sense. I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying.
If God didn't care about the devils opinion why did he grant him an audience?
So the universe has 2 kings?
YLTGen 310 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'
Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?
QuoteWhy did he answer his questions and grant his requests of removing his hand of protection from Job?
"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.
QuoteWhy put this in the holy text if the devil has nothing to do with it?
The Holy Text shows that satan asked and Father agreed. Father set some rules like do not kill him. Satan obeyed. Father could just as well refused the request.
QuoteThe fact is that before this audience with the devil Job lived a perfect life before God, but after the devil incident with God, now Job is facing trials and difficulties. Why confuse the readers? Shouldn' t God have just dealt wth Job himself and left the devil out of the equation.
God never gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 12, 2010, 06:47:54 PM
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
It appears that Satan was already there on the same earth as Job and you and I.
And not just once. Many times.
It even happens after the cursed serpent. :winkgrin:
So the universe has 2 kings?
YLTGen 3
10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'
Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?
Not the universe but the world has 2 kings. One is the god of this world and one is the God of righteousness, our saviour.
Of course God knew where Adam and Eve hid, he wanted to hear it from their mouths, confession!
"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.
How do you know what God was planning to do :dontknow:
Gods ways are higher than our ways. I have had prophecies said to me that I would do and come to pass, but they did not come to pass because I failed to take action.
God does change, he changes us day by day, and he changes his judgment towards us if we repent. Many times God is frowning upon us, but we repent and then, he smiles at us and gives us mercy, but for those who don't repent, the judgment of God shall take its route.
The Holy Text shows that satan asked and Father agreed. Father set some rules like do not kill him. Satan obeyed. Father could just as well refused the request.
Yes, because Job lived a holy life and was precious in God eyes. When Job lost his possesions, the people of God thought that he must have sinned. But through the procees of allowing the devil to test jobs heart, job broke down and blamed God, but eventually through much pain, he repented and turned back to God, his first love and proved to God his faithfullness, through trials.
eGod nver gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork.
To return to him. Notice that God rarely gets involved in the affairs of the pagans, but only talks about Israel. Today his message to the unbeliver is, look at this saviour Jesus you have not heard of before.
But to christians it is often, repent for your sins, or face judgment.
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 07:29:17 PM
So the universe has 2 kings?
YLTGen 3
10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'
Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?
Not the universe but the world has 2 kings. One is the god of this world and one is the God of righteousness, our saviour.
But Father is the highest God. One blink of His eye and Satans kingdom is no more.
My point is not that satan has no power or doesn't anything. My point is that there is that Father keeps a close eye on satan an if needed :punish:
QuoteOf course God knew where Adam and Eve hid, he wanted to hear it from their mouths, confession!
Exactly. Just as God knew in the garden, He didn't need any advise from satan on how He should handle Job.
Quote
"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.
How do you know what God was planning to do :dontknow:
If God was planning to give Job a some candy that day and because of satan He doesn't because so major testing started that day; then satan changed Father's mind. And because Father doesn't change His mind it must have been His plan...
QuoteGods ways are higher than our ways. I have had prophecies said to me that I would do and come to pass, but they did not come to pass because I failed to take action.
How do you call prophecies that don't come tru? False prophesies.
I had a prophesy I would win the jackpot this summer. I didn't win a cent.
So God lied/changed His ways. So the one giving the prophesy was wrong. (or I misunderstood)
QuoteGod does change, he changes us day by day,
He changes us. Not Himself....
Quoteand he changes his judgment towards us if we repent.
That's not change. If I always wear a black coat on Saturday and a white coat on Sunday I'm not changing. Only if after years I start wearing a red coat then I change.
God does not change to me simple means: No change in plan. No change in rules.
QuoteMany times God is frowning upon us, but we repent and then, he smiles at us and gives us mercy, but for those who don't repent, the judgment of God shall take its route.
Yes. That's what the Scripture says. He does that now. And in a billion years. He doesn't change to someone that doesn't give mercy.
Seems we have awhole different understanding of that verse.... :laughing7:
God nver gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork.
EDITED, if there is something in it, tell me first, that way I can restate it in a better way.QuoteOk, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.
Perhaps. Certainly we should not translate it in the way we think of the word "evil" today. Much like Hell, Evil is an English word we've now taken out of context as English evolved.
QuoteSo because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)
But not in the way we would like to imply. A general can use the blunders, the weaknesses of his enemies to allow for one of his battalions to take and stand on more solid ground. But he did not defect to the enemy's side, nor party up with them.
QuoteSo God created stain remover = satan.
Hence my statement; Hitler was once an innocent baby. Satan wasn't formed in the eons before The Beginning as a wicked sinner, unless evil was in the heart of God to be expressed in one of his creations - who he will decide to blame for His own wicked nature.
QuoteNo. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.
God however, is God who is by default supposed to be absolutely sinless and perfect.
If God created evil, it is out of his own heart - it doesn't matter what his intent is, even if/though his intent is better than the original creation.
If God created it, it came out of his heart. If God created sin, it came abundantly out of his essence. If God's essence contains wickendess, then he is not a Holy God.
QuoteThe Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
You potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.
Not at all, I only take away the idea that God is the author of lies, and iniquity, which makes God not God at all, let alone sovereign or in control.
If the pots are cracked, he is in the process of shining through their brokeness. However, a god who invented evil seems to look on with a terrible grin as he makes one man kidnap the little girl in Rwanda, and make her his personal pleasure slave - calling her a "wife". This god seems perfectly content to make a man who commits genocide, and not only makes him do it, but intended for him to do it. This god made the Israelites sacrifice their babies to Molech, which is against the scriptures. An imperfect god denies the Scriptures, by not being God, but by being the author of iniquity.
Yahweh is Perfect, and this god who invented evil is not Yahweh
QuoteHe didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?
See an earlier post of mine on Judgement. Common sin, gets common judgement. The hypothetical example I gave;
A man who shoplifts gets an earthquake in his spirit.
If every man in a town is stealing from each other constantly - their town gets an earthquake wholesale.
QuoteTell that to the judge that sentence me for jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.
Would you rather God did it, and be an evil God just proving his sovereignty so you can feel better?
QuoteAre you setting the guidelines for God?
It is a silly accusation for you to make that I am setting guidelines for God, and the root of it is even sillier. Just because I don't believe in the weird idea that God twists arms and makes people sin, doesn't mean I'm setting guide lines for God. As it stands, I'm holding God to his own standard of perfection, defining God by his own given revelation, his own Word.
If God is not perfect, or righteous in the way that he tells us to be righteous - then there is something up.
I have faith enough that God would rather me hold him to his own standard and have greater faith in knowing my Father to be true - than to have the littlest faith and not even seek to go beyond "God did it".
QuoteLots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom
Judgement is a righteous act. Causing a man to sin is not, inventing methods of sin is not, inventing sin is not.
God gave us life on earth, he can take it away - it is his property.
QuoteThe question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercey on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.
The sinful state is not out of God himself, unless our God is the Omni-devil.
A man might enter into his own prison, because he enjoys the wickedness he can act in, but God in his mercy would not want a man living in such a Hell as that - so he locks him in, so the man might realise that the Father would rather give the man his best, which means that the man should not want the prison.
How would the man know it is a prison, if he does not become locked up in it long enough to realise it has made him a prisoner?
God locking men up in disobedience, is not God making them disobey - it is him revealing to them the depraved state they've brought on themselves, so that they will cry out to escape the Hell they were blissfully playing with - but now hopelessly mired in.
QuoteMaybe we are living in hell/LoF right now....
Maybe, but I can't be certain.
Quoteimo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.
God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.
You can't cause sin, unless you're a sinner. But if I might be so bold, I think one of the biggest mistakes mankind has ever made, has been blaming God for their own fault so that they could pass on the responsibility, or even the guilt of it onto another; "I didn't do it, God made me do it."
To this I say; Stop it, God had nothing to do with you passing your child through the fire to Molech, neither did he make you look lustfully at that girl, and neither did he make you hate your brother.
QuoteAgain you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.
You confuse children running away from God to be with themselves, with God withdrawing himself.
God is omnipresent, he might turn his face, but it is we who try to let go of his hand. Sin is us being withdrawn from God, turning our face from God and onto other gods like self, mammon, idols, reputation, things, etc.
The only time God ever judged Israel, or withdrew himself - was when Israel went whoring after idols. God didn't make righteous Israelites do it, they did it on their own accord. It was
then that God withdrew, so that they would come running back after having experienced the fruit of the gods they desired. Bitter, bad tasting fruit.
QuoteAnd no one can force God out of him/herself.
The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.
People initiate the withdrawl, before God ever does.
QuoteWhat's perfect? You might have another idea of perfection as Father.
In your eyes His ways are not perfect. Earth is a mess.
By perfect design?
Or overruled/outsmarted by mankind.
"In your eyes"?
You're not talking to me then, but probably someone behind me.
His ways certainly are perfect, the Earth is indeed a mess. Not because of being over ruled, or outsmarted, you're working under a false premise.
God has not yet reached his intent for us, Glory, and Perfection, God is certainly not satisfied with leaving us "merely good", that is not his best, and the Father wants to give his best. That means that he must allow us the freedom to be immunised to what ever disease of corruption might rise up to make us corruptible, so that when we are fully immune to it, and made beautiful in His due time, nothing but incorruption will stand, and we will be as he is; Incorruptible, glorious, and perfect.
It seems to me, that you'd rather have a god who thinks of famine, pestilence, and war as perfect - rather than a god who is shaking these things out of Heaven and Earth as their possibilities arise so that imperfection is rid of where it surfaces, in such a way so that it might NEVER rise up again. Like drawing poison from a wound, when poison goes in six inches deep, it must be drawn out six inches forth.
You seem to think, that unless God has his hand in every man's backside making him lie, cheat, steal, rape, and kill - that He is somehow outsmarted.
God is not mocked by the works of man, but he certainly doesn't make man try to mock him so he can wrongfully misplace blame later.
If I coerce one of my future children to drop a brick on one of my other children's faces - I have no right to whip my child for doing what I told him to do, even though it was wrong. And infact, I am quite a wicked person for even coercing the child to do it in the first place, it is my fault at root.
QuoteIn that case He's imperfect.
Then alas, there is no God worth worshiping.
QuoteSo God created imperfection. Otherwise He can't burn it out.
God did not command, nor express into being that his children should sacrifice their own babies to Molech. God did not create imperfection.
God
is and God is the mark of perfection. God was not created, neither was Perfection - therefore Imperfection, that which misses the mark who is God, and Godliness, was not created either.
QuoteI think that option is gift wrapped in a veil :-)
You can believe that if you want, I personally think it is the better option than worshiping an imperfect God and hoping he is good beneath all that evil he's expressed out of his heart.
QuoteIt's your premise that's false Lefein.
It could not fall. I was designed to fall.
You weren't designed to fall, you were designed to be Glorified.
QuoteI agree with that.
So Father willfully created something that falls short of His glory. For a reason.
So imperfection is part of the perfect plan.
God hold back the light. (main cause of sin)
Imperfection wasn't created, because God(Perfection) was not created.
Now we have no purpose in believing that God created imperfection as a part of any plan.
QuoteTrue. It also shows God actively choose Adam to fall. He choose to NOT indwell Adam.
Adam feel=sinned by design.
He was not designed to fall, there is no evidence to support that humans were meant to be fallen creatures. The whole of human study from psychology to biology and beyond shows that man is not meant to live in a fallen state.
QuoteSickness is a sign of crappy design.
So you'd rather have an imperfect god than a perfect design that is not yet finished being built?
QuoteHe intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty induvidual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.
And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.
QuoteAgreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of aperfect plan.
God did not create imperfection no more than he created perfection, Perfection simply 'is', because God is Perfection, and he himself was not created.
QuoteReally? I don't live in a bubble. I'm blessed with an iron immume system. I for example never had the flu in my whole life.
You didn't always. And of course you don't live in a Bubble, you're not naked running around in a garden.
QuoteIllness is a crappy design of the immume system.
Would you rather have an imperfect god instead of a perfect immune system in development?
QuoteThen why he locks up all in disobedience?
So we'll never want to enter into our self-made prison ever again. God wanting to give his best, knows when to lock us up in a place so we'll never enter into it again, knowing what it is like.
God doesn't want us to straddle the fence between World and God, passing back and forth between the two, so he might just lock the gate between World and God, and let us be stuck in World for a little while, so we'll come running back to God and not straddle the fence any more.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2010, 07:52:22 PM
If God was planning to give Job a some candy that day and because of satan He doesn't because so major testing started that day; then satan changed Father's mind. And because Father doesn't change His mind it must have been His plan...
We also could consider that God changing his mind is not God changing, if God changes his mind and still has retained his character then he has not changed.
<edited my above post- forgot to add a large portion of it>
Paul, I will address your request a little later. Thanks.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 08:22:41 PM
QuoteHe intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty individual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.
And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.
Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.
QuoteQuoteAgreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of a perfect plan.
God did not create imperfection no more than he created perfection, Perfection simply 'is', because God is Perfection, and he himself was not created.
So you agree sickness nad all sorts of negativity are part of a perfect plan.
QuoteQuoteIllness is a crappy design of the immume system.
But you'll have a crappy god instead?
That's your crappy conclusion.
QuoteQuoteThen why he locks up all in disobedience?
So we'll never want to enter into our self-made prison ever again. God wanting to give his best, knows when to lock us up in a place so we'll never enter into it again, knowing what it is like.
So He submerges us into sin so we never enter it again.
QuoteGod doesn't want us to straddle the fence between World and God, passing back and forth between the two, so he might just lock the gate between World and God, and let us be stuck in World for a little while, so we'll come running back to God and not straddle the fence any more.
So now you agree He locks us up in a sinful world He created.
QuoteQuoteBTW I'm making progress. I'm called a Calvinist now. Who had thought that 2 years ago
That explains your weird ideas of God.
Lefein, just study Scriptures 2 years and you will take those words back :laughing7:
QuoteFinally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.
QuoteSo you agree sickness nad all sorts of negativity are part of a perfect plan.
Not in the way you'd have me believe.
QuoteThat's your crappy conclusion.
I'll take it, its better than an imperfect God.
QuoteSo He submerges us into sin so we never enter it again.
Baptism isn't drowning.
QuoteSo now you agree He locks us up in a sinful world He created.
He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him. Rocks don't sin - people do. Physics don't sin, people do.
His world is still good, it is people in it who are not. He made it good, but it is being made Perfect as he immunises.
QuoteLefein, just study Scriptures 2 years and you will take those words back
Presumption before pride before fall.
PS: My first post was edited, and re-edited with new things you may address if you so choose.
WhiteWings,
I like the new graphic, there's something peaceful about it, thanks.
NP James
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2010, 08:39:06 PM
And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.
Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.
[/quote]
Then what is perfect? Job was considered perfect before Satan was let loose on him. Now he is more perfect?
I'll take imperfection and God can leave me family alone, if that is what this amounts to. I'll gladly hear, "Have you considered my servant paul, wait, never mind, look at him... ah, come hither, have you considered my servant Job" :happy3:
There is something, now having perhaps a revelation of it that I'd like to go into if we could;
Would it be an accurate statement, or idea even that "God is Perfection"? God is certainly Perfect, so that would mean that Perfection is an eternal quality of God?
Or to put it a simpler way;
In the same way that Love is something God is not just something God does, would it be accurate to say God is Perfection also?
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 08:46:07 PM
He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him.
But...
God everywhere present
In Jeremiah 23:24 God declares, "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"
God Himself is present everywhere in His majesty and power.
"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me" (Psalms 139:7-10).
In David's understanding, it is God himself who is there, not just his power or authority. In using the personal pronoun, "Thou," he leaves us with no doubt. Even the abode of the dead is not apart from God's omnipresence (Revelation 14:10).
So, by omnipresence, God, in the totality of His essence, without diffusion or expansion, multiplication or division, penetrates and fills the universe and beyond in all its parts.
I believe that Job walked perfectly before the lord, but then satan came along and God used this opportunity, to turn evil into good, by allowing the devil to do as he does, and then for God to turn that evil into good. Job thanks to this experience had a great deal of revelation of who God is, being the grand creator of all things and giver of all good things and don't forget the bigger picture, that this experience brought revelation from Job to the scribes about the nature of God and also about the nature of the devil. Before this incident where did we know that devil destroys, and God blesses in such a dramatic fashion.
A good question is did Job know that Satan existed?
Who wrote that part about the devil appearing before Job, did they tell him about this instance? Did he know that it was the devil who destroyed his possessions and not God?
Blaming God for the destruction is a bit like a person who got his house robbed, instead of blaming the robber, the person blames the security guard for not protecting the house, God wanted to reveal this thing about Job hidden in his heart.
Beloved Servant; Distance from God is not about physical distance. "Your lips honour me, but your heart is far from me" That is distance from God.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 12, 2010, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 08:46:07 PM
He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him.
But...
God everywhere present
In Jeremiah 23:24 God declares, "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"
God Himself is present everywhere in His majesty and power.
"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me" (Psalms 139:7-10).
In David's understanding, it is God himself who is there, not just his power or authority. In using the personal pronoun, "Thou," he leaves us with no doubt. Even the abode of the dead is not apart from God's omnipresence (Revelation 14:10).
So, by omnipresence, God, in the totality of His essence, without diffusion or expansion, multiplication or division, penetrates and fills the universe and beyond in all its parts.
But when hes there in person the place become sanctified, such as the ark of the covenant and where Moses had to take of his shoes, for it is holy ground. Also, our temples, one mans temple is holier than the other for one is filled with the holy spirit the other is filled with an unclean spirit, also the temple of Jerusalem is where priests did their ceromonies.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 09:07:54 PM
Beloved Servant; Distance from God is not about physical distance. "Your lips honour me, but your heart is far from me" That is distance from God.
The Lord does not use the word distance.
Your use of the Word confuses me.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
"Farness", is a matter of distance. It shouldn't be confusing at all...
As for the good Lord using the word "distance", the CLV version;
Mat 15:8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.
What do you all make of this verse?
Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
QuoteWhat do you all make of this verse?
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I interpret it this way;
To make Creation incorruptible as he is - he needs to shake out what ever might arise that is corruptible. If creation were like a bit of clay that dirt and corruption had arose in the lump of; he must press the corruption out. The clay is still subject to the vain existence of being clay, not a finished, perfect vessel, and it will be subject to being that lump of vain clay until it is ready to be solid, and unchanging as God is - IE: Fired in a kiln and solidified as a vessel fit for Glory. However, if he fired Creation in the kiln too early, it'd burst apart due to the corruption. So he subjects it with expectation to the process of his kneading, his "all consuming fire" which removes the corruption that arises from the clay and then he shall fire it in his kiln, salting with fire, and it shall be Perfect, and Free, being made free indeed by Jesus.
Soft clay is a futile thing to try and use for an instrument, or vessel - a perfect, glorified vase however, is excellent at holding the flowering beauty of God. He subjects them to futility, not imperfection. He calls for perfection, it would be against himself to call for something - and then subject men to it, especially when his purpose is to free, to perfect, and to glorify. He'd be working against his own will.
Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect. The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not. But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially). The law brought forth sin and sin...death.
I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect. For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin. There is much value to that being. But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first. I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be. In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 09:30:52 PM
What do you all make of this verse?
Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Adam and Eve did not want to be cursed or suffer consequences, just like all of us, but God subjected them to it, so that through it they may learn the ways of rightoeusness which leads to life. Adams way of desiring to be above God, was a way unto death, for there can only be one God in control and he will not give his glory to another or be usurped by another.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 09:38:45 PM
QuoteWhat do you all make of this verse?
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I interpret it this way;
To make Creation incorruptible as he is - he needs to shake out what ever might arise that is corruptible. If creation were like a bit of clay that dirt and corruption had arose in the lump of; he must press the corruption out. The clay is still subject to the vain existence of being clay, not a finished, perfect vessel, and it will be subject to being that lump of vain clay until it is ready to be solid, and unchanging as God is - IE: Fired in a kiln and solidified as a vessel fit for Glory. However, if he fired Creation in the kiln too early, it'd burst apart due to the corruption. So he subjects it with expectation to the process of his kneading, his "all consuming fire" which removes the corruption that arises from the clay and then he shall fire it in his kiln, salting with fire, and it shall be Perfect, and Free, being made free indeed by Jesus.
Soft clay is a futile thing to try and use for an instrument, or vessel - a perfect, glorified vase however, is excellent at holding the flowering beauty of God. He subjects them to futility, not imperfection. He calls for perfection, it would be against himself to call for something - and then subject men to it, especially when his purpose is to free, to perfect, and to glorify. He'd be working against his own will.
I agree God is making us incorruptible. This implies we are not incorruptible yet - we are corrupted. Part of that process of God making us incorruptible is that He subjected us to vanity - corruption, which I believe is what the verse says - that is how I see it.
What you say above - how did the clay become corrupted? It was subjected by God, no?
That is the question. How did anything become corrupted?
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 10:05:08 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 09:30:52 PM
What do you all make of this verse?
Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Adam and Eve did not want to be cursed or suffer consequences, just like all of us, but God subjected them to it, so that through it they may learn the ways of rightoeusness which leads to life. Adams way of desiring to be above God, was a way unto death, for there can only be one God in control and he will not give his glory to another or be usurped by another.
But God subjected us to vanity - vanity itself is a sin.
Previously you had said God was not in control?
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect. The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not. But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially). The law brought forth sin and sin...death.
I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect. For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin. There is much value to that being. But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first. I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be. In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.
"I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect."
Indeed. Have you considered God
is making us perfect - and to reach a state of perfection, we must first travel the road of imperfection - ie. vanity, frustration, futility, sin, and evil...
It is God's will for us all to be saved
and come to a full knowledge of the truth - which includes knowledge of good and evil.
It does not say creation was subjected to corruption, but subject to vanity. Which in the sense of the language of the time would mean something that we'd today call "disposable".
I do not believe God subjected creation to corruption, corruption is imperfection which I do not believe was created at all, seeing as how God is Perfection and God has no creator.
For how it became corrupted, I'd say it is distance from God that caused it. Distance from perfection, is distance from the mark, distance from the mark is missing it; IE: sin.
What drew men from God in the first place? The Serpent initiated men to look at themselves, not God, to become selfish "YOU will become as gods". I believe it was Satan who did this - how Satan became corrupted, we are not told...and we probably don't even really need to know.
I don't believe however, that Satan was created evil, it goes against God's character to create an already imperfect being.
It is my current belief that Satan by some means or another, became selfish - and that self-focus took his focus away from God, and so his heart became distant from God - and thus came the downward spiral where corruption first arose, and so began the process where it must be shaken out until only the incorruptible stands, and is glorified.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 10:14:42 PM
It does not say creation was subjected to corruption, but subject to vanity. Which in the sense of the language of the time would mean something that we'd today call "disposable".
I do not believe God subjected creation to corruption, corruption is imperfection which I do not believe was created at all, seeing as how God is Perfection and God has no creator.
For how it became corrupted, I'd say it is distance from God that caused it. Distance from perfection, is distance from the mark, distance from the mark is missing it; IE: sin.
What drew men from God in the first place? The Serpent initiated men to look at themselves, not God, to become selfish "YOU will become as gods". I believe it was Satan who did this - how Satan became corrupted, we are not told...and we probably don't even really need to know.
I don't believe however, that Satan was created evil, it goes against God's character to create an already imperfect being.
It is my current belief that Satan by some means or another, became selfish - and that self-focus took his focus away from God, and so his heart became distant from God - and thus came the downward spiral were corruption first arose, and so began the process where it must be shaken out until only the incorruptible stands, and is glorified.
This is the root issue, which I don't think you answered. How does anything become corrupted? How did Satan become corrupted if He was "perfect"? That is a contradiction in terms.
God created everything... why are some things "distanced from God" as you put it and why was that even possible since God created them?
This is the flaw in your argument. If God created everything to be perfect and good, then why are we imperfect and evil?
The answer I propose is that God is
still making us - it is a process - and by definition, since we are in the middle of that process, we are not perfect yet. We never were perfect. But when the process is done, we will be perfect. So since we are imperfect right now, we are by nature not complete - we are corrupted, fallen, sinful. It is part of the process of being subjected to vanity. So we can eventually be freed from bondage of corruption into glorious freedom of children of God. That is what the verse says:
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Thus why God creates evil. It is a temporary necessity to reach incorruption.
God is in control here remember...
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect. The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not. But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially). The law brought forth sin and sin...death.
I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect. For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin. There is much value to that being. But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first. I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be. In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.
"I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect."
Indeed. Have you considered God is making us perfect - and to reach a state of perfection, we must first travel the road of imperfection - ie. vanity, frustration, futility, sin, and evil...
It is God's will for us all to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth - which includes knowledge of good and evil.
Yeah as I stated later in the paragraph.
QuoteThis is the root issue, which I don't think you answered. How does anything become corrupted? How did Satan become corrupted if He was "perfect"? That is a contradiction in terms.
The same way anything becomes imperfect, by not being perfect anymore, which is done by no longer a part of him who is Perfection. How did he become corrupted? I don't know, simply put. Nothing has yet been made incorruptible, not even the angels. They too are subject to disposable vanity, being a part of Creation, until the incorruptible, glorified are what is left and nothing may then be disposable.
QuoteGod created everything... why are some things "distanced from God" as you put it and why was that even possible since God created them?
Because a target to hit, has a possibility to miss, until the skill to hit it 100% all the time, is learned when Perfection is All in All.
QuoteThis is the flaw in your argument. If God created everything to be perfect and good, then why are we imperfect and evil?
Because of our own distance from his heart, and mark. I'd go further, but I cannot do so without getting into the forbidden subject.
Sufficed to say; God is not a ventriloquist.
QuoteThe answer I propose is that God is still making us - it is a process - and by definition, since we are in the middle of that process, we are not perfect yet. We never were perfect. But when the process is done, we will be perfect. So since we are imperfect right now, we are by nature not complete - we are corrupted, fallen, sinful. It is part of the process of being subjected to vanity. So we can eventually be freed from bondage of corruption into glorious freedom of children of God. That is what the verse says:
I agree with the sentiment, though perhaps not the details.
QuoteRom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Thus why God creates evil. It is a temporary necessity to reach incorruption.
God did not create Sin.
QuoteGod is in control here remember...
I never denied that. And God not being the author of lies or sin doesn't automatically void him of sovereignty either. It does however kill the idea that God had any form of wickedness in his imaginations, that would even possibly be expressed in his creative nature, or works.
Something disposable has its use, but Sin has not a single good use whatsoever.
willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:
Excellent offering! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Amen... :thumbsup:
Might I preface what I am about to say...
FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions. Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:
SECOND --- The "land of
UZ" is the place where this all takes place --
Job 1:1 -- the word "
UZ" is
UWTS -- #5780 which is a derivitive of "
UZ" ---
UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) -- :declare:
Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises)
YHVH GOD! --
Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is
believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not...
Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."
advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)... :dontknow: Advising
YHVH that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face --
Job 2:5 IOW ..."satan"
suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" --
Job 2:5 -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB! And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to
ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "
GOOD")...
:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:
So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the
suggestion as well as the
suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator. And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...
Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which
YHVH Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings...
GOOD and EVIL...
And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings... as well as which brings forth the
PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:
So... in conclusion...
In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of
UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a
LIVING man, while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of
YHVH for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)
God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from
JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "
cursing" never takes place in this writing...
And so those who are
UPRIGHT, regardless of
GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "
JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him,
never cursing Him for the removals of
GOOD as they LIVED...
willieH :cloud9:
But God subjected us to vanity - vanity itself is a sin.
Previously you had said God was not in control?
legoman
I did not say God had no control, such a statement is illogical and without faith. I said that God does not have total control, this is why we pray for Gods angels to protect our loved ones, to protect from enemies - those who do not have the heart of God, including the devil and his angels.
Do you think its Gods will for a mad gunman to gundown a school? Gods will is to change the heart of that gunman and set them free before even going down such a path. When such evil happens God responds by healing those who have been hurt, but unless his people take up the cause, they will not be healed, but likely go towards destruction.
I am puzzled by some of the statments here in this thread made about God, I think many have over thought this process and tangled themselves up concerning Gods true will.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 05:31:23 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 04:51:14 PM
Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.
:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"
The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My :2c: Blessings....
That is fine, but so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil.
Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now? That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.
What you have to understand here is this is only part of the scenario. In my current mental state, I would never kill anyone, let alone someone's entire family. So God would not be able to cause me to murder anyone, without first changing my mental state to a state where it would seem acceptable to me (for whatever wacko reason) to go kill a bunch of people. But then there would have to be a reason or cause that would change my mental state. Perhaps if I started overloading on drugs I may reach a mental state where it seems "reasonable" that I should commit foul. But then again, something would have to
cause me to start overloading on drugs - as it is now I barely even drink a glass of wine.
So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act. Everything in this universe works through a series of causes. In that sense - God is the indirect cause of everything that happens - because He is the direct cause that started the whole universe off. So does God
directly or
indirectly cause evil to happen?
Example: Event A causes event B. Event B causes event C. Event C causes event D. If God caused event A, then implicitly He also caused event D (at least indirectly).
It is somewhat a matter of semantics and depends how you define the terms - but God does not need to directly cause anyone to sin because we all volunteer to sin every day. Any sin we do, we do because we wanted to. So the direct cause of why we sin is because we wanted to at that moment in time. So if at some future time I commit grievous crime, it will because I chose to do it. However that does not meant there are not other events that caused me to go down that path.
As I said - we sin because we want to. But why do we want to? Our hearts are weak and tempted. But why are our hearts weak so they fall into the traps of temptation? Who made our heart? Who made us?
If we trace the causes and events back far enough, then we will reach God - who is the first direct cause of the universe - and thus indirectly caused every other event in the universe to happen (good and evil). I wager God knew what He was doing... so it is all for a good purpose.
And as I said before I believe it all MUST be this way if we are to achieve incorruption and gain full understanding and knowledge of the truth.
The idea that God is the source, the root of every evil, well...quite frankly it is hideous for all the right reasons.
I wonder who are we worshiping here - God or Hell? Did we remove the doctrine of Hell the place of eternal torture, only to exalt it to being the very personhood of the eternal God?
If out of the infinite, eternal, everlasting heart of God came forth the expression of all wrongness, and separation from Perfection - then God is indeed Hell.
Quote from: shawn on November 12, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect. The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not.
FIRST --- What verse
SAYS that
"ANGELS have the knowledge of good and evil"?As I see it, and because there is no text which makes this statement you just made... That said statement is an assumption based upon a veiled understanding of
SYMBOLIC texts... :dontknow:
SECOND --- If God "made us PERFECT" we would (as does HE) have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... :dontknow: For HE has this KNOWLEDGE ...
AND... is PERFECT --
Gen 3:22willieH :cloud9:
Well if that is the case, and Angels do not know between good and evil, then it is perfectly reasonable for Satan to have fallen due to his own ignorance.
"My people perish for a lack of knowledge" And so dying Satan died! Being absent of God in his iniquity.
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 10:50:18 PM
I did not say God had no control, such a statement is illogical and without faith. I said that God does not have total control, this is why we pray for Gods angels to protect our loved ones, to protect from enemies - those who do not have the heart of God, including the devil and his angels.
Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking. He is in control but He doesn't have total control? That is not control at all. That is making God to be
not God.
Quote
Do you think its Gods will for a mad gunman to gundown a school?
Not as an end in itself. But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned.
There are biblical examples of this:
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.
But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself. There was a good reason for all of the above. We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.
Quote
Gods will is to change the heart of that gunman and set them free before even going down such a path. When such evil happens God responds by healing those who have been hurt, but unless his people take up the cause, they will not be healed, but likely go towards destruction.
Then apparently you are saying God's will fails quite often.
Quote
I am amazed by some of the statments here in this thread made about God, I think many have over thought this process and tangled themselves up concerning Gods true will.
As I am amazed by some of the statements you have made here in this thread about God, specifically that you think He does not have control in some things and that His intentions are not achieved.
Question: Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?
double post
It seems Legoman that you are offering only two choices when it comes to our beliefs concerning our infinite, uncontainable Heavenly Father of whom is Perfect, Righteous, and Good, and no darkness is found in him...
a) God who never fails in his working of iniquity in the hearts of men;
.or.
b) God who fails often because he wants only to work Good in the hearts of men.
Even with these choices, I'd rather have b). I could love that God, and I'd rather love a failure, than kiss the feet of a devil.
How can the angels not know about evil, when they are guarding his saints everyday?
Did the angels in lots house not recognize that these men were after them?
They did blind them after all
So for some reason, some angels have rebelled and others have not.
The devil seems to have knowledge of good and evil because God calls him a god. Also God called Adam and Eve gods, because they had knowledge of good and evil.
Perhaps there are some angels in heaven who are kept in innocence, such as original Adam and Eve, but I think more mature angels such as archangel michael are fully aware of evil.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:13:51 PM
It seems Legoman that you are offering only two choices when it comes to our beliefs concerning our infinite, uncontainable Heavenly Father of whom is Perfect, Righteous, and Good, and no darkness is found in him...
a) God who never fails in his working of iniquity in the hearts of men;
.or.
b) God who fails often because he wants only to work Good in the hearts of men.
Even with these choices, I'd rather have b). I could love that God, and I'd rather love a failure, than kiss the feet of a devil.
You contradict yourself when you believe God is perfect and yet still fails.
If you believe God fails often you have no assurance He can save all men, nor that He can even save anyone (including yourself).
Lefein, do you realize that this is truth: God (directly or indirecty) caused EVERYTHING to happen by His creative act of causing the universe to come into existence? That is the truth.
Sorry if I was confused by your last post Lefein... those are not really the choices I am offering. If you want to break it down like that, these are the choices I'm offering:
a) God is in control of all things
b) God is not in control of all things
The bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 09:21:53 PM
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
"Farness", is a matter of distance. It shouldn't be confusing at all...
As for the good Lord using the word "distance", the CLV version;
Mat 15:8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.
Ahhh...
It certainly is convenient to be more accurate the second time around.
QuoteSorry if I was confused by your last post Lefein... those are not really the choices I am offering. If you want to break it down like that, these are the choices I'm offering:
I believe that Yahweh is neither sinful, nor does it work iniquity into the hearts of men, neither did he invent imperfection, corruption, wickedness, or devilry of any kind.
He is perfect, he is sovereign, he is the creator of all things that exist/are true, and he is good, righteous, and above all else; Perfect, and Love.
QuoteIf you believe God fails often you have no assurance He can save all men, nor that He can even save anyone (including yourself).
If one believes that God is the author of lies, and sinfulness, and causes it in the hearts of men; then indeed as Paul the Poster said - they have no assurance whatsoever that they won't be the next deflowering, monstrous tyrant. And indeed, knowing that God is not a respecter of persons, if he is the author of evil - they have the fullest assurance in the world that they
will be amongst the most wicked sinners to ever express their vile trade. They will rape, they will pillage, they will murder, they will lie, and they will do it without discrimination to toddler, adult, and every soul in between.
Every manner and method of wickedness they (even you, and I) will do, and they (even you, and I) will do it with a wicked grin...and then we'll go through the fire for the very things God made us do, like an angry, drunk parent who rails against his child for his own faults.
For God does not play favourites, and if God is the inventor of evil, and the one who brings it forth; We're assuredly on his list of people to turn into devils. We can forget about being saints, if this is the way of God.
QuoteLefein, do you realize that this is truth: God (directly or indirecty) caused EVERYTHING to happen by His creative act of causing the universe to come into existence? That is the truth.
I believe you may be misunderstanding the nature of truth for an inaccurate idea of sovereignty.
God brought forth everything that is True - sin is not a truth, lies are not the truth, they are the farthest things from Truth, the farthest things (more accurately "nothings" as they are perversions, or absences) from God who is Truth.
QuoteThe bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.
The Bible also affirms over, and over, and over, and over again that people often turn away from his will. They rebel...
God is in control, but it is not the control of a divine ventriloquist.
Quote
It certainly is convenient to be more accurate the second time around.
I wasn't inaccurate the first time as far as I recall...but alright.
Quote from: willieH on November 12, 2010, 10:44:30 PM
willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:
Excellent offering! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Amen... :thumbsup:
Might I preface what I am about to say...
FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions. Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:
SECOND --- The "land of UZ" is the place where this all takes place -- Job 1:1 -- the word "UZ" is UWTS -- #5780 which is a derivitive of "UZ" --- UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) -- :declare:
Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises) YHVH GOD! -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not...
Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)... :dontknow: Advising YHVH that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face -- Job 2:5
IOW ..."satan" suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" -- Job 2:5 -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB! And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "GOOD")...
:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:
So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the suggestion as well as the suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator. And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...
Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which YHVH Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings... GOOD and EVIL...
And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings... as well as which brings forth the PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:
So... in conclusion...
In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a LIVING man, while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of YHVH for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)
God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "cursing" never takes place in this writing...
And so those who are UPRIGHT, regardless of GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him, never cursing Him for the removals of GOOD as they LIVED...
willieH :cloud9:
Amen, HE WROTE THE BOOK.
Job, perhaps, is Christ?
Shhhh...don't tell anyone.
Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking. He is in control but He doesn't have total control? That is not control at all. That is making God to be not God.
weasel words :mshock: :laughing7: . I appreciate you enjoy an All powerful God, but consider what Jesus said, he said concenring the little ones, it is impossible but offences come, but woe to that man through whom it comes.
If God is all powerful he would stop this injustice happening to the innocents, because that's what love does, love does not sit there and do nothing. For some complex reason that we will not fully understand until we get to heaven, God does not prevent these injustices that occur on a daily basis. In my current level of understanding I belive the reason is because God is working through us and because of that, his power is limited upon the earth, for he has given it to us flawed vessels. Thats why the scripture says, the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Literally a man or woman of God can change the course of an entire nation, because they are Gods mouthpiece upon the earth.
Not as an end in itself. But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned.
There are biblical examples of this:
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.
But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself. There was a good reason for all of the above. We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.
But your theory, while true to a degree, still limits this learning to people of God, the people of the world deal with things the worlds way and that is to demand vengeance upon the wicked and generally have a bitter heart towards life and God, this attitude not the type of things that God desires.
The people of God learn the ways of God, because we must. When calamity happens it is most unfortunate, but God gives his people the strength to overcome even as He overcame and to do as he did, to forgive and be set free.
Question: Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?
I hope so, especially after the revelation that man has a spirit, I am currently studying more about this and looking at the various scriptures.
Has this been posted?
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:33:29 PM
QuoteThe bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.
The Bible also affirms over, and over, and over, and over again that people often turn away from his will. They rebel...
And why is that? BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion. But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...
QuoteHas this been posted?
Yes.
QuoteAnd why is that? BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion. But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...
Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness". Others put unbelief, like the King James.
Unbelief is different from outright rebellion. Much different.
Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him. It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 10:52:14 PM
So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act.
I never used those terms, I worded the issue exactly as it is. Is God the cause of men doing evil or not? I have never said we are free from cause. But some here absolutely believe that we have nothing to do with anything we do. ok, I am not against someone believing that, I am pointing out that they rarely include themselves in the full scope of such things and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary yet.
If he is absolutely the cause of everything then what assurance does a believer have that they will not one day be caused by God to be the next person who drowns some little kids because it was ordained that they do so? No robot mode here, what you believe you think you will not do is irrelevant because according to some, you have absolutely no say in what you do.
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2010, 11:35:46 PM
Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking. He is in control but He doesn't have total control? That is not control at all. That is making God to be not God.
weasel words :mshock: :laughing7: . I appreciate you enjoy an All powerful God, but consider what Jesus said, he said concenring the little ones, it is impossible but offences come, but woe to that man through whom it comes.
If God is all powerful he would stop this injustice happening to the innocents, because that's what love does, love does not sit there and do nothing. For some complex reason that we will not fully understand until we get to heaven, God does not prevent these injustices that occur on a daily basis. In my current level of understanding I belive the reason is because God is working through us and because of that, his power is limited upon the earth, for he has given it to us flawed vessels. Thats why the scripture says, the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Literally a man or woman of God can change the course of an entire nation, because they are Gods mouthpiece upon the earth.
Not as an end in itself. But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned.
There are biblical examples of this:
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.
But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself. There was a good reason for all of the above. We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.
But your theory, while true to a degree, still limits this learning to people of God, the people of the world deal with things the worlds way and that is to demand vengeance upon the wicked and generally have a bitter heart towards life and God, this attitude not the type of things that God desires.
The people of God learn the ways of God, because we must. When calamity happens it is most unfortunate, but God gives his people the strength to overcome even as He overcame and to do as he did, to forgive and be set free.
Question: Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?
I hope so, especially after the revelation that man has a spirit, I am currently studying more about this and looking at the various scriptures.
I hope you didn't take offence at the "weasel words" comment :Sparkletooth: :grin:
But I think our base viewpoints are so different, that discussing the problem of evil is really moot. There are more important issues with respect to God's sovereignty that need to be studied before tackling the problem of evil. You seem to believe:
- God is not quite all powerful/in control of everything
- I'm not sure but it seems you are not sure if God will even be able to save all people? Keep on studying thinktank.
Given that base I can see how you would come to the conclusion you have.
Be well...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 11:46:48 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 10:52:14 PM
So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act.
I never used those terms, I worded the issue exactly as it is. Is God the cause of men doing evil or not? I have never said we are free from cause. But some here absolutely believe that we have nothing to do with anything we do. ok, I am not against someone believing that, I am pointing out that they rarely include themselves in the full scope of such things and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary yet.
If he is absolutely the cause of everything then what assurance does a believer have that they will not one day be caused to be the next person who drowns some little kids? No robot mode here, what you believe you think you will not do is irrelevant because according to some, you have absolutely no say in what you do.
RE: "robot mode" - But that's what you are implying. If not then forget it.
Anyway, when it comes down to brass tacks, the only assurance that
any of us have that we will not commit some foul crime in this life is simply the grace of God. I am what I am because of the grace of God and nothing less.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. He could harden your heart or my heart if it so fulfilled His purpose. Have you ever considered that
you could have been Hitler if you had been born at the right time and place? And there would have been nothing you could have done about it, because you would have done everything exactly as Hitler did. Its only by the grace of God that we are what we are.
So since God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh did evil because of that - God did cause Pharaoh to do evil (either directly or indirectly, depending on how you define those terms).
So YES GOD is the first cause of everything in the universe. And like I said, my life is in His hands. I trust that He will have mercy on us all.
Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
QuoteHas this been posted?
Yes.
QuoteAnd why is that? BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion. But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...
Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness". Others put unbelief, like the King James.
Unbelief is different from outright rebellion. Much different.
Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him. It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.
Are you looking at the right verse?
CLV
Romans 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.God locks people up in stubbornness. Other translations say unbelief or disobedience. It seems that if God didn't want people to rebel, He wouldn't lock them up in stubbornness...
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:55:07 PM
Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?
God did not directly cause them to do that.
But indirectly He did.
I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:
(actually I'm performing in a local theater production and will be out for the whole night, see you later...)
I think you likewise misinterpret the passage as meaning God forced them into a place they did not want to be, rather than God revealing to them that they do not actually want to be where they think they want to be - by letting them spend a little more time there than they would by "fence straddling" between the world and God - and so seeing their error...will run to him, where he can give Mercy to all.
QuoteGod did not directly cause them to do that.
But indirectly He did.
Jer 32:35 KJV
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Jer 32:35 CLV
And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
Jer 32:35 AMP
And they built the high places [for worship] of Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom [son of Hinnom] to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire [in worship also of and] to Molech--which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind or heart that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
It would seem, that this verse is more black and white than yours.
"I did not...cause Judah to sin"
Yet, they did so.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 06:26:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
Nothing mythical about what I am proposing. What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning. I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.
If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,
I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.
:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 11:57:35 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
QuoteHas this been posted?
Yes.
QuoteAnd why is that? BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion. But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...
Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness". Others put unbelief, like the King James.
Unbelief is different from outright rebellion. Much different.
Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him. It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.
Are you looking at the right verse?
CLV
Romans 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
God locks people up in stubbornness. Other translations say unbelief or disobedience. It seems that if God didn't want people to rebel, He wouldn't lock them up in stubbornness...
Want is a strong word. I believe God had to lock people into stubbornness in order to bring us to perfect perfection.
Quote from: legoman on November 13, 2010, 12:00:58 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:55:07 PM
Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?
God did not directly cause them to do that.
But indirectly He did.
I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:
(actually I'm performing in a local theater production and will be out for the whole night, see you later...)
If you mean God had to turn us over for a period of time to sin in order to bring perfect perfection then I believe that to be correct. I believe people move within that...and subsequently commit many terrible sins.
Quote from: willieH on November 12, 2010, 10:44:30 PM
willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:
Excellent offering! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Amen... :thumbsup:
Might I preface what I am about to say...
FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions. Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:
SECOND --- The "land of UZ" is the place where this all takes place -- Job 1:1 -- the word "UZ" is UWTS -- #5780 which is a derivitive of "UZ" --- UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) -- :declare:
Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises) YHVH GOD! -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not...
Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)... :dontknow: Advising YHVH that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face -- Job 2:5
IOW ..."satan" suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" -- Job 2:5 -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB! And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "GOOD")...
:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:
So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the suggestion as well as the suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator. And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...
Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which YHVH Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings... GOOD and EVIL...
And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings... as well as which brings forth the PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:
So... in conclusion...
In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a LIVING man, while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of YHVH for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)
God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "cursing" never takes place in this writing...
And so those who are UPRIGHT, regardless of GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him, never cursing Him for the removals of GOOD as they LIVED...
willieH :cloud9:
:cloud9: Playing "catch up" from leaving earlier today......I can hear it...... :thumbsup:
I hope you didn't take offence at the "weasel words" comment :Sparkletooth: :grin:
But I think our base viewpoints are so different, that discussing the problem of evil is really moot. There are more important issues with respect to God's sovereignty that need to be studied before tackling the problem of evil. You seem to believe:
- God is not quite all powerful/in control of everything
- I'm not sure but it seems you are not sure if God will even be able to save all people? Keep on studying thinktank.
Given that base I can see how you would come to the conclusion you have.
Be well...
legoman
I was unwise answering your question, as too whether I believe all be saved or not, for I belive you knew that already.
Whether I come to the conclusion that God saves all, is a different topic to what we are discussing here, so I don't see why you can tie them together, as if to say hey, one part of your theory tripod is incomplete, therefore the other part will fall with it.
This is not the case, if God saves all men, it doesn't mean that he had Full control over every action, but it does mean that regardless of their current will or desire, that eventually they will come to know God and be saved, for he is a refiners fire that purges away the dross.
I see challenges that God will save all because of various time constraints and various statments of Jesus that have not been explained by universalists yet. But God is purging his people right now and the father is drawing all people to his son now.
This is the key difference between me and you, is that I believe that mans will is not pure but evil or to be more exact a mixture of good and evil, as Adam and Eve ate the tree of good and evil, and the father draws us to Jesus Christ his son, but many refuse his ways and continue their evils, while others accept christ into their lives but yet continue to rebel against righteousness. Rebellion is not Gods will, this is my position, the fact that he uses our rebellion as a tool to cause us to come back to him, does not negate the fact that we did not love God but he loved us first, that we are in fact responsible for our evil and God will deal with each of us at the day of judgment.
I think Lego's saying, that a vital part of believing this; "God has shut up all to disobedience...", is this; "so that He may have mercy on all". IMO, it's the perfect completion to His perfect plan. :2c:
On my part however, no interpretation of scripture will be believed at the cost of God's sinlessness in his actions.
Another thought; if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way? Make the rules that that's how it would be? I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it. What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.? Forces beyond God's touch or control?
There's a scrip about God setting the boundaries, telling nature what to do (the song "My Redeemer Lives" is at least s/w based on it). Anyone know that verse? I'm at work, need to go right now...I.e., doesn't God make the rules, set up the way things work...at the VERY least?
Quotedidn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?
No. The target has always existed, it is as God is; "I AM" - the target is, if it were all boiled down...God. He is the target, of whom we miss when we sin. God is unchanging, not even God can change himself.
Quote from: legoman on November 12, 2010, 11:52:27 PM
RE: "robot mode" - But that's what you are implying. If not then forget it.
It's not, so ok.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 02:01:13 AM
Quotedidn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?
No. The target has always existed, it is as God is; "I AM" - the target is, if it were all boiled down...God. He is the target, of whom we miss when we sin. God is unchanging, not even God can change himself.
Scrips?
EDIT ****Actually, I want to modify my point/question here. I also believe God, "the target" has always existed. What I really mean are, where are the scrips about the rest of it, that the darkness "just was", and that God didn't/can't do anything about it?
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 01:55:31 AM
On my part however, no interpretation of scripture will be believed at the cost of God's sinlessness in his actions.
Are you able to consider that God can do things without that making Him sinful?
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 01:57:54 AM
Another thought; if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way? Make the rules that that's how it would be? I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it. What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.? Forces beyond God's touch or control?
I believe in order for us to know God, to know holiness and to become the perfect perfection of his creation God set things in motion. His motion was to turn us over to futility...basically life outside of him. In that futility certain things had to be...in order for us to become complete. One of those things is experience sin...death. He also made the plans to deliver us. Why would God place things in motion only to save us from them? It has to be the journey has lessons and is the path he uses for knowledge and purification. Do I believe God directs us to sin? No. But, I believe he shut himself off from him for a season. In that we do what death does in order that we can find life.
Quote from: shawn on November 13, 2010, 02:11:41 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 01:57:54 AM
Another thought; if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way? Make the rules that that's how it would be? I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it. What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.? Forces beyond God's touch or control?
I believe in order for us to know God, to know holiness and to become the perfect perfection of his creation God set things in motion. His motion was to turn us over to futility...basically life outside of him. In that futility certain things had to be...in order for us to become complete. One of those things is experience sin...death. He also made the plans to deliver us. Why would God place things in motion only to save us from them? It has to be the journey has lessons and is the path he uses for knowledge and purification. Do I believe God directs us to sin? No. But, I believe he shut himself off from him for a season. In that we do what death does in order that we can find life.
With maybe a little subtlety here or there (that I'm personally not completely sure about), I see very closely to this Shawn.
Quote from: legoman on November 13, 2010, 12:00:58 AM
But indirectly He did.
I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:
No firestorm here, first, indirectly causing anything does not get God off the moral hook unless we understand the nature of how that is. The problem is that we can get accused of making God in our image, yet, that isn't true, it is a factor of knowledge that we can know what the image of God actually is.
We arrest Mob bosses who indicrectly are involved in evil deeds. I guess God could be the ultimate mob boss and since mankind cannot arrest him or stop him we then are subject to whatever God wants to call anything. At that point we cannot trust that we can truly define the line between what is righteous and unrighteous.
Jabcat:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
"Be...perfect" "As Father [God] is perfect"
God is perfect, if God is perfect then God is Perfect, and perfection, like love has always been. For perfection, like love - is God.
QuoteAre you able to consider that God can do things without that making Him sinful?
It is impossible for him to work iniquity in any way, express it in any way, directly, or indirectly, without it existing in his heart - and existing there abundantly.
Out of the mouth of God, his heart speaks abundantly - just as our mouths speak abundantly what is in our heart. Is God a divided house that with his heart he wills good, but his mouth expresses sin into being? Is it not lying if the all knowing God, who knows his own infinite heart fully say something contrary to what he is thinking?
Anything God does, is tied directly to his being - his character. This includes his creative acts. As a man thinks, so is he. We could say; As God thinks, so is He. A man expresses what he is. So God expresses what He is.
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 01:57:54 AM
Another thought; if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way? Make the rules that that's how it would be? I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it. What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.? Forces beyond God's touch or control?
No, if God has a nature and God does not change then it is the nature of things and was never set up that way, it is how it is.
Well, I think it's pretty apparent what both of your understandings and opinions are. That's fine, talking about it gives us at least a chance to learn something from each other. I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it. Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have; our piece of understanding of a great big picture.
I know I still have things to learn about this. I'm just not 100% completely settled on every minute detail of this subject, but one thing I think I know is; the answers won't be found inside of me, in my own thought processes and reasoning capacity; especially with the carnal aspects of my mind.
I will continue to contemplate the questions and thoughts I've presented, but hopefully mostly will continue to search the scriptures and ask God for wisdom and to trust Him more and more; otherwise I may find myself once again arguing against God Himself.
:handshake:
:Peace2: :handshake:
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 02:30:43 AMI figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it. Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have; our piece of understanding of a great big picture.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 11:05:42 PM
Well if that is the case, and Angels do not know between good and evil, then it is perfectly reasonable for Satan to have fallen due to his own ignorance.
"My people perish for a lack of knowledge" And so dying Satan died! Being absent of God in his iniquity.
Without going into a drawn out reply...
It is only conjecture that evil was known by anyone or anything but GOD, prior to the creation of this realm.
It is your perception (common to Christianity)... thinking "satan" is a "being" (which is omnipresent, which credits a being other than GOD as omnipresent) ...rather than the principality of ADVERSITY (which is omnipresent for it is KNOWN by GOD)...
ADVERSITY is part of an ETERNAL Knowledge for without ADVERSITY, EVIL cannot be known... something that is ETERNAL never "dies"... In reference to "satan", where you would use the words "he, him" etc.. I would use the word "it". :nod:
:Peace:
willieH :cloud9:
Not a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.
I certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 03:26:14 AM
Not a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.
I certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.
What you call its presence?
He is finite.
I do not know his limits, only that he is finite. I've never communed, or sought to study, or excessively looked at the Devil to know, and it would be dangerous to try.
Quote from: shawn on November 13, 2010, 03:20:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 02:30:43 AMI figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it. Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have; our piece of understanding of a great big picture.
:thumbsup:
:2thumbs: back at'cha! :wink2:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2010, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 06:26:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
Nothing mythical about what I am proposing. What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning. I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.
If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,
I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.
:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....
How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?
Thoughts worth :2c: or there about.....
God is an absolute being, or maybe better, God is absolute being or even...God is THE absolute being.
God created beings for the purpose of fellowship and love.
He is "agape koinonea"..... I AM ThAT I AM... God is love
We are created for "agape koinonea"
We are becoming absolute beings, but are not yet so.
We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God....1 Pet 1:1,2
For all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.... Ro 8:29
God created an environment - aion/kosmos... He built it upon certain foundations(archon) and elementary principles(stoicheon)....
He placed us in it and allowed us total freedom (for freedom Christ has set you free)....
Freedom to chose error and rebellion and separation, so that we might learn the beauty of truth and harmony.....
The key to the matrix, the seed and fruit of the whole creation tree.... A LAMB SLAIN or, "agape koinoea"
That He might be the firstborn of many brothers, a kind of firstfruits of creation, embracing the absolute being, the agape koinonea of the I AM, that the whole creation might be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Where much is forgiven there is much love.... We could not know "much love" (agape koinonea) without knowing forgiveness.
We could not know forgiveness/love without knowing sin/mercy
God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choice
He knows when each one of us will choose union/grace/love, and each choice is a lesson and a transformation of understanding until the last such choice flows into "agape koinonea" /"I AM THAT I AM" as "all in all"
We are being taught the divine nature and eternal power of God dwells in love as we choose to let go and let God be God and cease trying to save our own lives, but enter into His rest through death, burial and resurrection.
This is about learning to be free.... not learning that God made all our choices for us.... but learning the consequences and rewards of freedom.
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 02:30:43 AM
Well, I think it's pretty apparent what both of your understandings and opinions are. That's fine, talking about it gives us at least a chance to learn something from each other. I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it. Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have; our piece of understanding of a great big picture.
I know I still have things to learn about this. I'm just not 100% completely settled on every minute detail of this subject, but one thing I think I know is; the answers won't be found inside of me, in my own thought processes and reasoning capacity; especially with the carnal aspects of my mind.
I will continue to contemplate the questions and thoughts I've presented, but hopefully mostly will continue to search the scriptures and ask God for wisdom and to trust Him more and more; otherwise I may find myself once again arguing against God Himself.
:handshake:
I am open to change, I used to rally to keep people out of eternal hell now I rally to glorify the God who never invented it to begin with. I just do not concede to change because someone quotes a bible verse or makes a forum post. ;)
I'll be careful in response, and try to tiptoe "the line" without crossing over it.
I agree with this (even including the wording) somewhere between 95-99% of it :thumbsup:. I agree we are required to make choices, we learn from the consequences.
I do believe (and I also gather that's it's implied in your post) that it's God that sets us within certain parameters/boundaries, within which we must decide.
And in some way (currently to some degree beyond my grasp of understanding) the scriptures are then fulfilled, including "man plans His way, but God directs His steps".
Edit; Being an earthly father ("how much more your Heavenly Father") I allowed my children to make decisions - in fact, I required it. But believe me, as was possible, I set conditions, boundaries, gave certain options from which they could choose. So they learned, grew, and in a sense they planned their way, but I directed their steps. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2010, 05:07:09 AM
I'll be careful in response, and try to tiptoe "the line" without crossing over it.
I agree with this (even including the wording) somewhere between 95-99% of it :thumbsup:. I agree we are required to make choices, we learn from the consequences.
I do believe (and I also gather that's it's implied in your post) that it's God that sets us within certain parameters/boundaries, within which we must decide.
And in some way (currently to some degree beyond my grasp of understanding) the scriptures are then fulfilled, including "man plans His way, but God directs His steps".
At some point I am also cool with agreeing to general concepts so that we don't have to split hairs and always disagree to the minute detail. (don't faint, lol) I agree with what you wrote there for the most part, very little of it would I need to make issue with. :thumbsup:
:nod:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2010, 04:47:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2010, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 06:26:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
Nothing mythical about what I am proposing. What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning. I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.
If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,
I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.
:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....
How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?
:cloud9: That's the whole point......He subjected us to it, in whatever form that takes expression thru. Since He is the origin of all things, as Legoman said, He is either indirectly OR directly the "cause" of it.
The word of scripture being translated "cutting down", is only used twice AS "cutting down" and it's in reference to literal trees. I CAN see that spiritually speaking, and in application towards the lowering of His creation, ie. being cut down from our condition before the foundation of the world. It would fit with the fact the tree of life was "cut down" also when He poured Himself into His creation. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2010, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2010, 04:47:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2010, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 06:26:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.
Nothing mythical about what I am proposing. What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning. I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.
If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,
I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.
:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....
How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?
:cloud9: That's the whole point......He subjected us to it, in whatever form that takes expression thru. Since He is the origin of all things, as Legoman said, He is either indirectly OR directly the "cause" of it.
The scripture being used about "cutting down" evil, is only used twice and it's in reference to literal trees. I CAN see that spiritually speaking, and in application towards the lowering of His creation, ie. being cut down from our condition before the foundation of the world. It would fit with the fact the tree of life was "cut down" also when He poured Himself into His creation. My :2c: Blessings....
I understand. I agree that nothing exists without God. But what I am believing is that there is a certain nature of things that defines that so there is an understanding of how God is pure righteousness despite that. Whatever God does is good does not address what it is that he does do that causes that righteousness to be absolute.
The calvinist who says God is good for creating humans for the sole purpose of burning in hell forever is then correct in saying that since God does it, it is good. The arguments against eternal hell not withstanding because despite the arguments, if all things are possible with God, then indeed, it is possible.
However, many of us have determined that a God who creates an eternal hell for his creation is impossible.
So I hope at least with that illustration you can see why I continue to stay on the journey of discovering what God will and won't do because I know it is possible to know.
I believe this because for close to 40 years I remained locked in a religious Fog that was simply men creating an evil image of God and saying because God does it we cannot question it and must accept this as good.
When I questioned it, look what I found. :) Hope you understand.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2010, 04:55:07 AM
Thoughts worth :2c: or there about.....
God is an absolute being, or maybe better, God is absolute being or even...God is THE absolute being.
God created beings for the purpose of fellowship and love.
He is "agape koinonea"..... I AM ThAT I AM... God is love
We are created for "agape koinonea"
We are becoming absolute beings, but are not yet so.
We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God....1 Pet 1:1,2
For all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.... Ro 8:29
God created an environment - aion/kosmos... He built it upon certain foundations(archon) and elementary principles(stoicheon)....
He placed us in it and allowed us total freedom (for freedom Christ has set you free)....
Freedom to chose error and rebellion and separation, so that we might learn the beauty of truth and harmony.....
The key to the matrix, the seed and fruit of the whole creation tree.... A LAMB SLAIN or, "agape koinoea"
That He might be the firstborn of many brothers, a kind of firstfruits of creation, embracing the absolute being, the agape koinonea of the I AM, that the whole creation might be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Where much is forgiven there is much love.... We could not know "much love" (agape koinonea) without knowing forgiveness.
We could not know forgiveness/love without knowing sin/mercy
God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choice
He knows when each one of us will choose union/grace/love, and each choice is a lesson and a transformation of understanding until the last such choice flows into "agape koinonea" /"I AM THAT I AM" as "all in all"
We are being taught the divine nature and eternal power of God dwells in love as we choose to let go and let God be God and cease trying to save our own lives, but enter into His rest through death, burial and resurrection.
This is about learning to be free.... not learning that God made all our choices for us.... but learning the consequences and rewards of freedom.
Well stated. I know this is a minor point and I think you would agree but had some issue with this sentence...
God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choiceGod knew we would would "choose" sin because we are born into slavery. I'm not sure there is any choice but to sin if we are indeed slaves to sin. Only after regeneration, do we have an awakening, the blinders come off and we are truly given a choice. Some of us after a taste and see that God is indeed good "choose" to serve. But, all of this is by grace and only because he removes our blinders.
:cloud9: @ Paul.....for brevity......I do understand questioning......I question Him about everything. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 12, 2010, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2010, 08:39:06 PM
And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.
Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.
Then what is perfect? Job was considered perfect before Satan was let loose on him. Now he is more perfect?[/quote]Good point. Only Jesus was perfect.
I don't know if Job became more perfect.
I think Job was a real follower of God in times of prosperity. With the test he also learned to follow in bad times :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 12, 2010, 08:22:41 PM
EDITED, if there is something in it, tell me first, that way I can restate it in a better way.
QuoteOk, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.
Perhaps. Certainly we should not translate it in the way we think of the word "evil" today. Much like Hell, Evil is an English word we've now taken out of context as English evolved.
I agree with that in general; but in this case it gives some problems. You suggested the Isa passage doesn't mean God created (used) evil but calamity.
But God says He hates
evil calamity. He hates His own ways?
Let's take another apporoach. Do you have one or more verses that in your opinion really mean evil?
QuoteQuoteSo because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)
But not in the way we would like to imply. A general can use the blunders, the weaknesses of his enemies to allow for one of his battalions to take and stand on more solid ground. But he did not defect to the enemy's side, nor party up with them.
So Father has to wait for enemy weakness? As someone mentioned God told Satan to come to His throne. It was not satan who took the initiative to test Job.
Another thing occured to me.... If evil can not enter heaven and satan was a murderer from the beginning how could he be a frequent visitor of heaven?
Not just heaven but right before Father.
QuoteQuoteSo God created stain remover = satan.
Hence my statement; Hitler was once an innocent baby. Satan wasn't formed in the eons before The Beginning as a wicked sinner, unless evil was in the heart of God to be expressed in one of his creations - who he will decide to blame for His own wicked nature.
Satan was a murderer from teh beginning. There was no thruth in him.
If beginning is the birth of satan then you statement is clearly false. So it must mean beginning of the creation of earth???
QuoteQuoteNo. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.
God however, is God who is by default supposed to be absolutely sinless and perfect.
If God created evil, it is out of his own heart - it doesn't matter what his intent is, even if/though his intent is better than the original creation.
If God created it, it came out of his heart. If God created sin, it came abundantly out of his essence. If God's essence contains wickendess, then he is not a Holy God.
All fine but imo it's simple.
a] God created evil/calamity as part of a plan.
b] God created imperfection because that was the best He could do.
c] He created imperfection because that way He knew evil would emerge.
QuoteQuoteThe Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
Your potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.
Not at all, I only take away the idea that God is the author of lies, and iniquity, which makes God not God at all, let alone sovereign or in control.
That's not my point.
If God wanted to create evil His plan succeeded. If He in no way planned ever to have evil on earth He failed. A lot of His pots are leaking.
QuoteQuoteHe didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?
See an earlier post of mine on Judgement. Common sin, gets common judgement. The hypothetical example I gave;
A man who shoplifts gets an earthquake in his spirit.
If every man in a town is stealing from each other constantly - their town gets an earthquake wholesale.
Ok they deserverd it. Fine. But still He used very destructive ways to punish. He used fire to burn. That was/is my point.
QuoteQuoteTell that to the judge that sentenced me to jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.
Would you rather God did it, and be an evil God just proving his sovereignty so you can feel better?
I think that answer only makes you feel better....
God removed the light. And
because of that there is sin. Action Reaction.
QuoteQuoteLots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom
Judgement is a righteous act. Causing a man to sin is not, inventing methods of sin is not, inventing sin is not.
Removing light from the world IS forcing sin into the world.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercy on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.
The sinful state is not out of God himself, unless our God is the Omni-devil.
Sinful state is default anyplace without light.
Light that's blocked out by veils. Veils placed by God......
Quoteimo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.
God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.
You can't cause sin, unless you're a sinner. But if I might be so bold, I think one of the biggest mistakes mankind has ever made, has been blaming God for their own fault so that they could pass on the responsibility, or even the guilt of it onto another; "I didn't do it, God made me do it."
And the biggest mistake is assuming God lost control and now is busy with some patchwork...
QuoteQuoteAgain you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.
You confuse children running away from God to be with themselves, with God withdrawing himself.
Children full of light don't run away. Running away is lack of light. Action/reaction.
I've read the other part of your post. I can summarize my asnwer to those points, and this whole post, or even discussion with you that you seem to overlook cause and event.
Light withdrawn by God -> Room for evil -> Evil grows and grows -> The world we are in right now.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 12, 2010, 08:47:32 PM
WhiteWings,
I like the new graphic, there's something peaceful about it, thanks.
I think it are the names in the picture David :winkgrin:
I just decided to make some new pictures for 'every' event.
This one is my representation of fall/autumn.
Hanukkah is next..
Quote from: Cardinal on November 11, 2010, 04:39:39 PM
:cloud9: That's exactly what was communicated to me. He took me up in spirit into the heavens where the stars are. I was seeing in the Spirit. I saw what looked like silver-ish round orbs of light with faces on them. I heard (also by the Spirit, they didn't really "speak") them talking about about what they were going to do here. I felt the joy of the Lord hit me, just as they had it also, describing their forthcoming lives. They knew about relationships with one another, and had joy even over the "bad" things. They knew it was to perfect unconditional love in one another, and they were excited about it.
I was shocked because I had NO doctrine in place for this experience and I had to seek His face in the Word to "see" this after it was over. Blessings.....
That all? :winkgrin:
The good/neutral NDEs I've read most often are short and vague.
The hell stuff takes a whole book to write down......
I find the world is just to barbaric to be, as nothing more than God training us. Surely he could have created a school of training that did not have such barbarity. Given Gods nature is love I don't see why he had to subject us to monstrous evils in order to develop character in us. In fact one can develop character by simply living with people that annoy one self, or to climb mount everest. I don't see why we have to have kids being butchered and familles mowed down by collisions, in order to grow in love and character, that's one reason I content we battle evil, that is not Gods will for the earth.
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2010, 02:30:17 PM
I find the world is just to barbaric to be, as nothing more than God training us. Surely he could have created a school of training that did not have such barbarity. Given Gods nature is love I don't see why he had to subject us to monstrous evils in order to develop character in us. In fact one can develop character by simply living with people that annoy one self, or to climb mount everest. I don't see why we have to have kids being butchered and familles mowed down by collisions, in order to grow in love and character, that's one reason I content we battle evil, that is not Gods will for the earth.
I agree it's problematic.
But then just read how Jesus met His end.
Then you can ask a similar question: Wasn't there another way with no/much less pain for Jesus?
I think training may be to lightweight a word, altho training is part of it. Transforming, as a seed is transformed ;shoot, stalk, then the ear.....translating from darkness to light.....being conformed to the image of the Son, growing up in all things into the Head....maybe those words all together reflect a glimpse of His purpose.
For all those whom He foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
:cloud9: @ WW.....I like it too, was going to comment on it but got busy......can't wait to see the next one :thumbsup:
Whitewings, I do not believe it is possible at this time for us to come to any sort of understanding. Our views theologically, and especially concerning God's nature are simply far too different, and I believe you are misunderstanding many of my major points due to that - or perhaps I am misunderstanding yours.
As it stands, I've already explained myself as fully as I at the moment can, and there is nothing left to be gained by continuing on this part of the road.
Walk with peace-
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 03:26:14 AMNot a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.
Ask ONE of those Christians, WHERE "satan", ...IS... :laughing7: Matter of fact... anyone who is a "believer" in "satan" as a being [ :sigh: ] ... please feel free to answer this question... Where is "satan"? Is "he" on the subway in New York? On Obama's desk? In the new song by Beyonce? On "Survivor" with the castaways, uncovering the hidden immunity idol? On a plane to Bankok? In the mind of the publishers of Playboy? At the north pole, bothering the other myth of Christianity? ...Please.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 03:26:14 AMI certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.
Then how is it that "satan" ...tempts... men, Lefein? Where exactly does "he" hang out, Lefein... what is "his" location? Is "he" just assigned to certain men, or just choose certain of them? If so, whom and on what basis? :dontknow:
Or is "he" just a director" who shouts orders to other "demons"? :director: ...if so, where is Biblical proof of
any of this poppycock?
The
TRUTH is that "he" is a
myth which is created by
religion...
The
TRUTH is, that the myriads of less than SURFACE and UNSPIRITUAL
atheists in the world, shall deduce of "him" the very same as do you of "satan" as they read the Bible you read... :icon_farao: :sigh: Being just as deceived of "satan" as to WHAT "satan" ...IS...
The
TRUTH is that "satan"... is the principality of ADVERSITY, necessary to display its resultant part [evil} in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which KNOWLEDGE is present EVERYWHERE, with the one which
IS EVERYWHERE ---
YHVH God.
In the book of JOB... "satan" was WITH and AMONGST, the Sons of GOD... as well as PRESENT before
YHVH... you do the math... :JCThink: :Book:
willieH :cloud9:
WillieH, When you become the only begotten son of God, then you can start telling me what is truth and myth. When you have gained all that superior wisdom over the rest of God's beloved children, his saints - his warriors who have fought the foe and his entourage, and proven wrong all those who have cast out devils before you and I were ever born then you can call them myths of Christianity. When you have sat on the mountain in the wilderness and looked on as Jesus our Lord contested with the very Satan himself, when you have stood on the roof of the temple as the Devil tried to have our Lord cast himself down to prove his sonship, then you can tell me he is not a being. When you have shaken out the fullness of God's truth, and put it under your feet and have the authority to call yourself the Lord of the Word, and all of its truths and interpretations, then you can start implying that you, and you alone have the right knowledge of the The Letter to which you so fervently bow down.
You say that Satan as a being is a myth - to this you have made a strange interpretation of the scriptures you say you rely solely upon; voiding it of the plain, common reading - replacing it with your own esoteric idea. A tradition of man that you have made with your own two hands, and set up as an idol before the Lord your God; an abomination in his sanctuary, you have defiled his temple, the Temple of the Holy Spirit your heart with bitter incense, and praise with lips.
This perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;
You mock your brothers, you mock your fellow Christians, you call them the builders of myth, you degrade their worship, you put them beneath you with your words, your attitude, you forget that they are your brothers, you forget first and foremost that they too are the sons and daughters of the Living God -- you will cease mocking them, or you will fall under your own heavy mantle of your own man-made religion; a religion of self-righteous judgements passed on to your brethren who have not yet come to the knowledge of truths you may, or may not have received.
You insist, and emphasise the veil on others - you ignore your own. You point out their veil, you do not point out their progress. You point to their blind eyes, you do not acknowledge their heart that sees the Father with eyes of faith as far as their loving eyes can carry their gaze up to Heaven.
Behold - they have great faith, your brothers who you laugh at. They love God their Father even despite the untruth of Hell. They are not the best of children, but they try their best to live out the word as God reveals it to them. You sit on your heap of scrip and letter to laugh at them and call their faith the faith of myths.
This will cease. Thus saith the Lord.
If you love your Father, you will end your scorn, and your laughter, and your mockery, and your constant pointing out of veils, blindness, and infirmity, weakness in your brothers whilst carrying yourself high as the knower of Truth. If you did indeed know the Father, the Truth - you'd act with greater humility. You'd act with greater wisdom. You'd express your views with less aggression - The Lord your God expects the practice of the fruits that you have learned in your years of study, and your harvest here has shown poor expression towards your brethren who are still in the outer court of the temple. Your brothers, your sisters, your fellow sheep in the fold; As the Lord said;
"Feed my sheep"
The Good Shepherd is aware of weakness, and blindness, and veils - even your own. Did the Lord God not say in the Word that He is strong in our weaknesses? Is he not shining through, tearing down the veils, and giving sight to the blind? Who are you then to go against the Lord's work and point out in every brother you meet what the Lord is tearing down, and what the Lord is giving light upon? Do you, blood bought son of God not know that what the Lord calls clean, you should not call unclean? That what the Lord calls clean, you shall call clean? Why then do you constantly call blind what the Lord has given sight? Why do you call veiled what the Lord has already revealed?
Why in your rebellion do you declare upon your brothers the opposite of what the Lord has said of them? Why callest thou Gideon a coward against the Lord thy God who hath said of him; 'Thou mighty man of valour!'?
Your fruit has been weighed, and it is found wanting. Repent of this contempt for your family, this thing in you that you would even deny - a veiling to your own faults, for you are not sinless in this world, neither are you faultless, for you likewise are under Grace, My Grace, and you have not yet seen the mirror with the great clarity that my own Son beholds. You see still through the glass darkly, and have not the authority to call myths what you do not know the full Truth concerning.
Where is Satan your Adversary? Going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour, the straggler in the flock as the Shepherd gathers his sheep into the fold. Be wary lest you be caught within the jaws.
Where is Satan your Adversary? Satan who is Adversary, goes to and fro the Earth to drive men to sin, and his work is ceaseless for he has little time left to cause mischief in the world I have made. Know this, I will put him in the abyss, and I will not be mocked.
I will not be mocked, neither will the members of my body! Offend not my little ones, it would be better for that person to tie a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the sea. Even the sea shall give up her dead, and everyone will give an account for every idle word, every vain speech, and every worthless, self-adoring, ambitious word they have uttered. Even you will give an account to me, for I am a righteous judge, and I will judge the world rightly!
Do as I have commanded - Love each other, as I have loved you! I am the Lord, and I do not mock. I am the Lord, I give sight to the blind. I am the Lord, I tore the veil of the temple! I AM the TRUTH, the LIFE, and I ALONE am the WAY.
I alone am almighty, I alone am in all places, I alone am the Lord of the ages, and I alone am God. I do not mock, I am LOVE.
Omnipresent. Its a truth about the adversary that we must come to KNOW.
Also if the adversary is a being, where and when was that being created. And you cant use Isa. 45:7
When was Gabriel created?
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
This perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;
You mock your brothers, you mock your fellow Christians, you call them the builders of myth, you degrade their worship, you put them beneath you with your words, your attitude, you forget that they are your brothers, you forget first and foremost that they too are the sons and daughters of the Living God -- you will cease mocking them, or you will fall under your own heavy mantle of your own man-made religion; a religion of self-righteous judgements passed on to your brethren who have not yet come to the knowledge of truths you may, or may not have received.
You insist, and emphasise the veil on others - you ignore your own. You point out their veil, you do not point out their progress. You point to their blind eyes, you do not acknowledge their heart that sees the Father with eyes of faith as far as their loving eyes can carry their gaze up to Heaven.
Behold - they have great faith, your brothers who you laugh at. They love God their Father even despite the untruth of Hell. They are not the best of children, but they try their best to live out the word as God reveals it to them. You sit on your heap of scrip and letter to laugh at them and call their faith the faith of myths.
This will cease. Thus saith the Lord.
If you love your Father, you will end your scorn, and your laughter, and your mockery, and your constant pointing out of veils, blindness, and infirmity, weakness in your brothers whilst carrying yourself high as the knower of Truth. If you did indeed know the Father, the Truth - you'd act with greater humility. You'd act with greater wisdom. You'd express your views with less aggression - The Lord your God expects the practice of the fruits that you have learned in your years of study, and your harvest here has shown poor expression towards your brethren who are still in the outer court of the temple. Your brothers, your sisters, your fellow sheep in the fold; As the Lord said;
"Feed my sheep"
The Good Shepherd is aware of weakness, and blindness, and veils - even your own. Did the Lord God not say in the Word that He is strong in our weaknesses? Is he not shining through, tearing down the veils, and giving sight to the blind? Who are you then to go against the Lord's work and point out in every brother you meet what the Lord is tearing down, and what the Lord is giving light upon? Do you, blood bought son of God not know that what the Lord calls clean, you should not call unclean? That what the Lord calls clean, you shall call clean? Why then do you constantly call blind what the Lord has given sight? Why do you call veiled what the Lord has already revealed?
Why in your rebellion do you declare upon your brothers the opposite of what the Lord has said of them? Why callest thou Gideon a coward against the Lord thy God who hath said of him; 'Thou mighty man of valour!'?
Your fruit has been weighed, and it is found wanting. Repent of this contempt for your family, this thing in you that you would even deny - a veiling to your own faults, for you are not sinless in this world, neither are you faultless, for you likewise are under Grace, My Grace, and you have not yet seen the mirror with the great clarity that my own Son beholds. You see still through the glass darkly, and have not the authority to call myths what you do not know the full Truth concerning.
Where is Satan your Adversary? Going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour, the straggler in the flock as the Shepherd gathers his sheep into the fold. Be wary lest you be caught within the jaws.
Where is Satan your Adversary? Satan who is Adversary, goes to and fro the Earth to drive men to sin, and his work is ceaseless for he has little time left to cause mischief in the world I have made. Know this, I will put him in the abyss, and I will not be mocked.
I will not be mocked, neither will the members of my body! Offend not my little ones, it would be better for that person to tie a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the sea. Even the sea shall give up her dead, and everyone will give an account for every idle word, every vain speech, and every worthless, self-adoring, ambitious word they have uttered. Even you will give an account to me, for I am a righteous judge, and I will judge the world rightly!
Do as I have commanded - Love each other, as I have loved you! I am the Lord, and I do not mock. I am the Lord, I give sight to the blind. I am the Lord, I tore the veil of the temple! I AM the TRUTH, the LIFE, and I ALONE am the WAY.
I alone am almighty, I alone am in all places, I alone am the Lord of the ages, and I alone am God. I do not mock, I am LOVE.
Parhaps, Lefein, God was speaking to you.
If he was, then he will certainly help me. If he was speaking to WillieH however, then it is important that he listen I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace. I have no fear towards my Father. I feel reasonably confident that it was definitely a word to WillieH, I myself have already prayed that I would practice what I preach. I am not afraid, and I have no reason to fear.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 11:07:19 PM
If he was, then he will certainly help me. If he was speaking to WillieH however, then it is important that he listen I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace. I have no fear towards my Father. I feel reasonably confident that it was definitely a word to WillieH, I myself have already prayed that I would practice what I preach. I am not afraid, and I have no reason to fear.
Yes, the prophets of God usually are
"reasonably confident."
I am not going to defend my choice of words. You were not given the word, I have nothing to say to you.
:dontknow: I'm curious Lefein.....did you bring this word from the Lord to your brother privately first before bringing it to the body?
I did as I felt moved to do :dontknow: That is all I know. As it stands, I did not, I did not feel moved to do so. From my understanding - he has had plenty of private word given. Unless I've received false information.
But if you are looking for confirmation of the word's validity - see his post just above your own.
And actually yes, I have talked to him privately before concerning his behaviour. (This just came back to my remembrance) There was a whole thread on it in private under the moderation of Jabcat. I addressed many of the things offered in the word given through me.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:03:14 AM
From my understanding - he has had plenty of private word given. Unless I've received false information.
Perhaps these things should stay private.
I'll not disobey where I feel certain that I am moved. I would be a fool to disobey the nudging of God.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:11:48 AM
And actually yes, I have talked to him privately before concerning his behaviour. (This just came back to my remembrance) There was a whole thread on it in private under the moderation of Jabcat. I addressed many of the things offered in the word given through me.
Ditto.
Perhaps these things should stay private.
If the Lord wanted it private, he would have moved me to make it so. I did not feel that he did. I won't mess it up where I feel lead - as far as I can help it being mortal.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:18:58 AM
I'll not disobey where I feel certain that I am moved. I would be a fool to disobey the nudging of God.
I thought you are only "reasonably confident?"
As I said, I won't defend my choice of words, especially over an issue of semantics.
I wasn't using Isaiah 45:7 (which you said I can't use) as the basis for asking "When was Gabriel (the being) created"?
I was thinking more along these lines.
Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
PART ONE:Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMWillieH, When you become the only begotten son of God, then you can start telling me what is truth and myth. When you have gained all that superior wisdom over the rest of God's beloved children, his saints - his warriors who have fought the foe and his entourage, and proven wrong all those who have cast out devils before you and I were ever born then you can call them myths of Christianity. When you have sat on the mountain in the wilderness and looked on as Jesus our Lord contested with the very Satan himself, when you have stood on the roof of the temple as the Devil tried to have our Lord cast himself down to prove his sonship, then you can tell me he is not a being. When you have shaken out the fullness of God's truth, and put it under your feet and have the authority to call yourself the Lord of the Word, and all of its truths and interpretations, then you can start implying that you, and you alone have the right knowledge of the The Letter to which you so fervently bow down.
:Yeahright: Whatever Lefein... I can retort the very same things to
you... :thumbdown:
Has it not become obvious to you yet, that you and I shall not yield to the other? And that you stand with the
MANY (believing "stan" er, "satan" as a being) and I with the FEW (believing "satan" an "IT/principality" not a "he/being"?
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
You say that Satan as a being is a myth - to this you have made a strange interpretation of the scriptures you say you rely solely upon; voiding it of the plain, common reading - replacing it with your own esoteric idea. A tradition of man that you have made with your own two hands, and set up as an idol before the Lord your God; an abomination in his sanctuary, you have defiled his temple, the Temple of the Holy Spirit your heart with bitter incense, and praise with lips.
My position is as easily proveable using the Scriptures as is yours... What makes NO REASONABLE sense, is that GOD placed an INVISIBLE, OMNIPRESENT, WAY-POWERFUL being upon the earth to harass finites into submitting to his INVISIBLE, SILENT, and EVIL presence, thereby making the precious ones which GOD miraculously brings upon the earth, into SINNERS which shall DIE...
I see this as a PERFECT and LIVING display which shall stand FOREVER, of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which was KNOWN in the heart of
YHVH God... and PERFECTLY displays which of the TWO aspects of LIVING (good/evil) is conducsive to LIVING of LIFE...
That GOOD (the LIFE of
CHRIST) was the enaction of the WILL of
YHVH without a hint of deviation from it, and EVIL the enaction of MEN which are EMERGENT of
YHVH, which have ALL SINNED... is quite proof enough of the COMMAND fulfilled (in
CHRIST) and the ADVERSITY to it... also FULFILLED... IN US... not some mythical "god" that you not only "believe in" but promote to others. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMThis perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;
You incrimnate yourself and who you are:
Some "prophecy"... :rolleye: TRUE
prophecy -- which is directed from above, ...does not utter the word "
PERHAPS"... :mnah:
Yeah... YOU are moved by
YOU to write it... and the resultant INSECURITY and UNINSPIRED wording is present IN IT. :sigh:
So, once again, ...here you go again with your
PERSONAL condescensions (you have mocked me so many times, even within this very post, and it continues below) which do NOT come from above, rather from the frustrated obstinance within
YOU:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYou mock your brothers, you mock your fellow Christians, you call them the builders of myth, you degrade their worship, you put them beneath you with your words, your attitude, you forget that they are your brothers, you forget first and foremost that they too are the sons and daughters of the Living God -- you will cease mocking them, or you will fall under your own heavy mantle of your own man-made religion; a religion of self-righteous judgements passed on to your brethren who have not yet come to the knowledge of truths you may, or may not have received.
I DO NOT "mock" them any more than
CHRIST "mocked" the "CHOSEN PEOPLE", with such words as --
VIPERS, WHITED SEPULCHRES, HYPOCRITES... as HE addressed them within THEIR mispercieved UNBELIEF... which was
percieved as correct
by them... it is no surprise that YOU should react as did THEY... :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYou insist, and emphasise the veil on others - you ignore your own.
You know so little about me, yet think to conclude me. Please!
I have openly admitted on this forum EVEN RECENTLY, that upon becoming REVEALED to the TRUTH of the Salvation of ALL MEN, that in my continuing searching, found that I was VEILED in other areas as well... yet... as with the TRUTH of UR... I remained humble and open to new revelation in other areas that GOD might correct in me, as well -- and so He has... (unlike yourself)
And as far as "INSISTING" goes... What do you call this post? Are you not INSISTING YOURSELF and "your beliefs" upon ME, Lefein? ...Get a grip, bro... :sigh:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYou point out their veil, you do not point out their progress.
Sorry, you are welcome to your own observances, ...but as I see it, ...I do not observe belief in an EVIL "being" is "progress"...
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
You point to their blind eyes, you do not acknowledge their heart that sees the Father with eyes of faith as far as their loving eyes can carry their gaze up to Heaven.
Where did I note anyone as BLIND, Lefein? I have stated my positions and often they are in opposition to you... Are you not saying to ME, that I am "BLIND", bro? Find a mirror... if you can see into it, you shall behold the hypocritical position of this writing posed to me.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMBehold - they have great faith, your brothers who you laugh at.
Let's face it Lefein... you are referring to YOURSELF... not others... many here are opposing your words, not just me.
I don't drag others into my conversation... as far as it goes, this is YOU and ME... Cardinal, Jabcat, White Wings, Beloved Servant, Paul Hazelwood, Pierac, Thinktank, Molly, CHB, and others have offered commentary in this thread, and none of them are trying to drag the rest of the crew into a convo that involves other than themselves... It is your insecurity that hounds you brother, not me.
And please do not seek to drag others, assembling them into a MOB that might assault "willieH" on YOUR BEHALF! :rolleye: You are unable to deal with me by yourself, so you seek to bring others to "have your back", while conversing with me. :pitiful:
In truth, I actually really have brotherly LOVE for all that are here (including you)... and when I use emoticons, they are either intended for emphasis or as means of lightening the mood... I never mean them to be as you in your hardened heart, supposes me to use them... :pitiful:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMThey love God their Father even despite the untruth of Hell. They are not the best of children, but they try their best to live out the word as God reveals it to them. You sit on your heap of scrip and letter to laugh at them and call their faith the faith of myths.
I do not and HAVE NOT said that they do not LOVE God... nor have I implied it. No more than your teachers at Bible College marked answers on your test wrong, due to their PERSONAL indignation of YOU... Get over yourself.
If I see a MYTH as being promoted, I have the RIGHT to object to it. The sinner is LOVED by God (and me), not the SIN... You have the right to disagree with what I say, and your objections do not matter to me... but know that I have the SAME RIGHT. The biggest diff between us, is that you cant deal with me, as easily as I deal with you.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMThis will cease. Thus saith the Lord.
Have you ever seen the movie "STRIPES"? If you have you will recognize this comment: "lighten up francis" :laughing7:
ALL things will CEASE... both your words and mine... and all that will be LEFT and RIGHTLY SO... will be the
WORD of
YHVH... Try listening to the song "the MESSAGE" by 4Him... there is much INSIGHT in it... and it is my goal.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
If you love your Father, you will end your scorn, and your laughter, and your mockery, and your constant pointing out of veils, blindness, and infirmity, weakness in your brothers whilst carrying yourself high as the knower of Truth.
More of the same... When
CHRIST brought enlightenment, He was persecuted... so your persecutions are only a verification to me... that I am doing the right thing.
You have practiced mockery with me, so I accordingly call you a HYPOCRITE, in speaking this "perhaps prophecy"...
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMIf you did indeed know the Father, the Truth - you'd act with greater humility.
Listen to your own "perhaps" words... perhaps you will, perhaps you wont
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYou'd act with greater wisdom.
Again, listen to your own words... perhaps you will, perhaps you wont
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYou'd express your views with less aggression -
For the 3rd time... listen to your own words... perhaps you will, perhaps you wont...
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
The Lord your God expects the practice of the fruits that you have learned in your years of study, and your harvest here has shown poor expression towards your brethren who are still in the outer court of the temple. Your brothers, your sisters, your fellow sheep in the fold; As the Lord said;
"Feed my sheep"
I am doing just that... and there are many at this forum who shall acknowledge it... :dontknow:
continued in next post...
willieH :cloud9:
PART TWO:Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
The Good Shepherd is aware of weakness, and blindness, and veils - even your own. Did the Lord God not say in the Word that He is strong in our weaknesses? Is he not shining through, tearing down the veils, and giving sight to the blind?
Yes... to the humble... again... listen to your own words bro...
ALL "veils" do not come in the same moment, or in the same area of life. I was 29 years old and an ATHIEST... now as 65, I can see the drawing of 3 years, and the work of 34 from there... you, amidst the arrogance of youth shall learn many lessons which cannot be UNVEILED except by standing upon the STONES of YEARS... give yourself time.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
Who are you then to go against the Lord's work and point out in every brother you meet what the Lord is tearing down, and what the Lord is giving light upon?
I am not going against the Lord's work at all... I am going against
YOU, and the
MYTHS you promote. That you percieve in your deceptions that what YOU believe is the truth... is not uncommon.
Until recently you stood against UR and found that in humility, your stand which YOU BELIEVED to be TRUTH, was NOT TRUE at all!!! ...Like I said... you need TIME and further PERSONAL research (not the swallowing of Bible college teachings)... 2 things I have done, that YOU have not.
I gained experiential knowledge that you went to school to learn... being amidst it and its DISGUSTING position, eventually led me OUT of it... The fallacies of UNBIBLICAL teachings of the harlot system such as ---
Hell -- the trinity -- the Rapture -- freewill -- the millenium -- "satan" as a being -- sinners prayers -- "decisions" for CHRIST -- Easter -- going to Heaven -- FALLEN ANGELS, and others ...have fallen from their RELIGIOUS PEDESTALS, to research and revelation...
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMDo you, blood bought son of God not know that what the Lord calls clean, you should not call unclean? That what the Lord calls clean, you shall call clean? Why then do you constantly call blind what the Lord has given sight? Why do you call veiled what the Lord has already revealed?
Where have I "called anyone UNCLEAN" Lefein... you appeal to LIES in your "perhaps prophecy" which only further reveals where that "
perhaps prophecy" actually originates from... that being YOUR OWN HEART... not from God.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMWhy in your rebellion do you declare upon your brothers the opposite of what the Lord has said of them? Why callest thou Gideon a coward against the Lord thy God who hath said of him; 'Thou mighty man of valour!'?
Lighten up on the poetic approach... Now you shall "thee, thy and thou" me, as if the use of these words are SPIRITUAL in any way... :rolleye:
Which actually is nothing but STRAWMAN clothing you dress your words with, that endeavors to defer the LIES contained in your "perhaps prophecy"... I have NEVER and never shall, condemn ANY of the children of
YHVH Even YOU which has assaulted me on several occasions, has already recieved my forgiveness for those assaults, as does it come forth to you IN THIS MOMENT ----- I forgive you for this "
perhaps prophecy" Lefein, for you KNOW NOT what you do... :friendstu: ...and KNOW that you and I shall forever be BROTHERS, once this enduring is past. :grouppray:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMYour fruit has been weighed, and it is found wanting.
:laughing7: ----- :Yeahright: ...by YOU... not God. You know nothing of my life's service and dedications... which, because I am far older than you, likely EXCEED your own... just on the matter of TIME lived upon this earth.
I have served God, probably in my guess of your youth, longer than YOU have been alive... :cloud9:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
Repent of this contempt for your family, this thing in you that you would even deny - a veiling to your own faults, for you are not sinless in this world, neither are you faultless, for you likewise are under Grace, My Grace, and you have not yet seen the mirror with the great clarity that my own Son beholds. You see still through the glass darkly, and have not the authority to call myths what you do not know the full Truth concerning.
And, ...Again... listen to your own words... :thumbsup:
I have the same RIGHT to call a thing a MYTH, that YOU think to have objection to, ...considering YOU have the RIGHT to say what you just said... within YOUR OWN INCOMPLETE, "seeing through the glass darkly" position, eh? :wacko2:
I have already admitted that I have had MANY "veilings"... How many have YOU listed (other than UR?) Lefein? :happygrin:
I haven't witnessed any admissions from you. :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMWhere is Satan your Adversary? Going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour, the straggler in the flock as the Shepherd gathers his sheep into the fold. Be wary lest you be caught within the jaws.
The ADVERSARY of ALL MEN, is the INCOMPLETE vision and inherent INABILITY to perfectly obey, that we ALL share, Lefein... for
YHVH is yet to reveal Himself in us as ALL in ALL, considering our occupance of this finite realm we are admidst.
That I do not listen to YOU... is due to the length of time being amidst ADVERSITY and watching the MANY condemning the WORLD to HELL (which I am sure you HEARTILY did, didn't you?)... and which is a place you just RECENTLY emerged from...
But here you are INSISTING upon dragging your CONDEMNATIONS with you, into the TENT... thinking that folks such as myself, shall submit to them and JOIN YOU in your VEILINGS... :mnah:
If you truly had wisdom, you would cease the ADVERSITY of CONDEMNATION for there is no
PEACE in it... and as long as you perpertrate it... you are indeed, its slave... :sigh:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
Where is Satan your Adversary? Satan who is Adversary, goes to and fro the Earth to drive men to sin, and his work is ceaseless for he has little time left to cause mischief in the world I have made. Know this, I will put him in the abyss, and I will not be mocked.
Lighten up francis! :laughing7: Grandiose misconceptions of SELF... Taking the
WORD (which is the
GOSPEL of PEACE --
Rom 10:15) of
YHVH (who is the
GOD of PEACE --
Rom 15:33)... and using it as YOUR OWN PERSONAL weapon of THREATENING --- used according to YOURSELF and your self centered positions... as if YOU are the
CHRIST... Please... get ahold of yourself, me bratha... :icon_rr:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMI will not be mocked, neither will the members of my body! Offend not my little ones, it would be better for that person to tie a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the sea. Even the sea shall give up her dead, and everyone will give an account for every idle word, every vain speech, and every worthless, self-adoring, ambitious word they have uttered. Even you will give an account to me, for I am a righteous judge, and I will judge the world rightly!
Oh my... now YOU are the judge, eh? I here all along, ...I thought
JESUS CHRIST was given all JUDGMENT! --
John 5:22 -- but, now it is
LEFEIN, eh? :thumbdown: NOT!
Rearranging in your sloppy, selfish, and CONDEMNING paraphrasing the
WORD of God -- setting it in an order to serve YOURSELF... and in doing so...
FAILING to follow
CHRIST who did NOT take opportunity to CONDEMN for He was SENT NOT to CONDEMN --
John 3:17 -- John 8:11 -- you are found trying to employ the
HOLY WORD for your own RELGIOUS and VENGENT agenda, ...in which you only mock yourself. :sigh:
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 10:33:13 PMDo as I have commanded - Love each other, as I have loved you! I am the Lord, and I do not mock. I am the Lord, I give sight to the blind. I am the Lord, I tore the veil of the temple! I AM the TRUTH, the LIFE, and I ALONE am the WAY.
I alone am almighty, I alone am in all places, I alone am the Lord of the ages, and I alone am God. I do not mock, I am LOVE.
When will you realize that GOD IS
LOVE and
PEACE, Lefein? And get over your self oriented condemning agendas, and self centered focus and begin to promote
LOVE and
PEACE?
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:11:48 AM
And actually yes, I have talked to him privately before concerning his behaviour. (This just came back to my remembrance) There was a whole thread on it in private under the moderation of Jabcat. I addressed many of the things offered in the word given through me.
Let us clarify... the "private thread" was NOT a DISCUSSION of the "behavior of willieH"... so please be truthful.
In that thread, ...I talked to YOU concerning YOUR "BEHAVIOR" as well... :rolleye: And as ususal we did not agree... :dontknow:
This was a private discussion... which has nothing to do with this one. So why bring it up? :offtopic:
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:18:58 AM
I'll not disobey where I feel certain that I am moved. I would be a fool to disobey the nudging of God.
GOD has hardly "nudged you"... you speak of and from the hardness of your own heart, not the
LOVE of His... :sigh:
willieH :cloud9:
I am now absolutely, thoroughly and fully confident that the prophecy is from the Lord, and it is a word for you WillieH. I have my confirmation.
Thank you Father, now I have no more doubt that I heard you.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 12:48:28 AM
I wasn't using Isaiah 45:7 (which you said I can't use) as the basis for asking "When was Gabriel (the being) created"?
I was thinking more along these lines.
Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
It just seems to me that you doubt more of the Word of God than you accept. Gabriel is a messenger that God uses to speak His word, Gabriel is part of Light, while the adversary is the evil. Should one believe that The Lord God is unable to use both good and bad, to bring forth Good, then that person is lacking the understanding of I AM. Isa. 45:7 states that Jehovah created Light and Evil. Knowing God is Good, we must use be positive with out understanding and not doubt. My :2c:
Heb 3:12 Be taking heed, brethren, lest at any time, there shall be in any one of you, a wicked heart of unbelief, in revolting from a Living God.
Once upon a time a sincere but naive new Christian woman was "given" words from God...from a Pastor in her church. Not knowing proper Christian decorum she said to the Pastor, "Let me get this straight...you are telling me that God is telling you things about me, behind my back, and you belive that?" I GOT to marry her 7 years ago and it has been a hoot and a holler ever since.
Micah: I think you may have missed my point when I asked you about Gabriel.
My point was that it does not say when Gabriel was created - neither does it say when Satan was created (as far as I know, we are not given details on the creation of the angels)
Quote from: Dean on November 14, 2010, 02:44:08 AM
Once upon a time a sincere but naive new Christian woman was "given" words from God...from a Pastor in her church. Not knowing proper Christian decorum she said to the Pastor, "Let me get this straight...you are telling me that God is telling you things about me, behind my back, and you belive that?" I GOT to marry her 7 years ago and it has been a hoot and a holler ever since.
:laughing7: Unless its not a joke :mshock: you crafty......
The more you open your mouth, the more you identify WHO you are, and what is emergent OF YOU. :sigh: Easily confounded when the TRUTH is stated in comparison to your reports.
As you publicly confess your
doubt:
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 02:16:46 AMI am now absolutely, thoroughly and fully confident that the prophecy is from the Lord, and it is a word for you WillieH. I have my confirmation.
Thank you Father, now I have no more doubt that I heard you.
Your prophecy came from a father all right... but certainly not Father
YHVH... :sigh:
It indeed is an emergent from your own hardened heart which in its on-going hardness, ...FAILS to call me, my rightful position of a
Son of the MOST HIGH, ...and REFUSES to call me
brother, and such is certainly NOT from
YHVH, for GOD does not give forth "prophecy" based on SINNERS laying out CONFIRMATION guidelines, please... :mnah:
And GOD instructs that we LOVE our brothers whom we can see... before our LOVE for Him can be truthfully accepted --
1 John 4:20You have been asked to take this type of thing to a PRIVATE scenario which YOU of course, blatanly REFUSED to do and made that REFUSAL, PUBLIC... and which is CONTRARY to the BIBLICAL instruction which deals with delivering the corrections of GOD to a brother percieved in a "fault"... :thumbdown:
His
WORD which is GIVEN from Him in prophetic manifestation IS PERMANENT
when given, and certainly NOT according to YOU nor your proposed and DOUBT ridden, "confirmations"...
Where do you see this as the method of "PROPHECY" when it is given in the
WORD, Lefein? The Truth is this is NOT the method... and there is no such example of it in the
WORD.
Your confessed
DOUBT... that YOU HELD, when you "heard" from GOD, is a confession that your "
perhaps prophecy" was NOT ever from
God... :dontknow:
For it was stated in and WITH, DOUBT from YOU... and GOD never immerses His directives, in FAITHLESS Prophesies EVER --- which are immersed IN DOUBT. :thumbdown:
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 13, 2010, 11:12:25 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 11:07:19 PM
If he was, then he will certainly help me. If he was speaking to WillieH however, then it is important that he listen I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace. I have no fear towards my Father. I feel reasonably confident that it was definitely a word to WillieH, I myself have already prayed that I would practice what I preach. I am not afraid, and I have no reason to fear.
Yes, the prophets of God usually are "reasonably confident."
Do you believe that prophets are perfect?
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 02:45:15 AM
Micah: I think you may have missed my point when I asked you about Gabriel.
My point was that it does not say when Gabriel was created - neither does it say when Satan was created (as far as I know, we are not given details on the creation of the angels)
Gabriel is a man of God, which means as I reason and understand that he was, and is, and will be a man of God who speaks today to the saints. The adversary on the other had is the enemy of Light and Good and is a principality given power in the heavanlies to cause trouble with the saints of the Living God, the adversary is the opposing force of good.
Gabriel was created in Gen.2:7 for he is a man of God; And should you need the when, of the adversary, I contend it began right here... Gen 3:1 Now, the serpent, was more crafty than any living thing of the field which Yahweh God had made..."
Rom 5:20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,
There are a lot of years between the Daniel and Luke. Alot more than any man on this earth has lived post-flood anyway.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 13, 2010, 11:01:50 PM
Perhaps, Lefein, God was speaking to you.
:cloud9: Absolutely and for this reason......EVERY word that comes to us (even if it's for others) proves us FIRST as steel is tempered and we must walk it out first. If we have not already gone thru the fire over the same thing, then "by whatever measure you mete out the same is measured out to you", has a particularly potent refining to it, as it burns any flesh that was "attached to" and contaminated that word. This is why the Word is as sharp as a two-edged sword because it cuts BOTH ways and is also why we are to judge not, lest we also be judged. Blessings....
willieH: Hi Dean... :hithere:
Quote from: Dean on November 14, 2010, 02:44:08 AM
Once upon a time a sincere but naive new Christian woman was "given" words from God...from a Pastor in her church. Not knowing proper Christian decorum she said to the Pastor, "Let me get this straight...you are telling me that God is telling you things about me, behind my back, and you belive that?" I GOT to marry her 7 years ago and it has been a hoot and a holler ever since.
Is this my old friend
DEAN from Christian Message Board? :dunno:
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 04:09:28 AM
There are a lot of years between the Daniel and Luke. Alot more than any man on this earth has lived post-flood anyway.
Yes that is true, but Gabriel a messenger, is that man of God today who is still bringing that same glad tidings (Like 1:19) to mankind today. As well as "Gabriel, make this one to understand the sight." (Dan. 8:16) This messenger Gabriel -man of God is the voice of those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying, to expalin what we recieve today.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 02:16:46 AM
I am now absolutely, thoroughly and fully confident that the prophecy is from the Lord, and it is a word for you WillieH. I have my confirmation.
Thank you Father, now I have no more doubt that I heard you.
It certainly is convenient to be more accurate the second time around.
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Do you believe that prophets are perfect?
Yes, the first time and every time.
Willi and Lefein, plz check your PMs. James.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 13, 2010, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2010, 02:30:17 PM
I find the world is just to barbaric to be, as nothing more than God training us. Surely he could have created a school of training that did not have such barbarity. Given Gods nature is love I don't see why he had to subject us to monstrous evils in order to develop character in us. In fact one can develop character by simply living with people that annoy one self, or to climb mount everest. I don't see why we have to have kids being butchered and familles mowed down by collisions, in order to grow in love and character, that's one reason I content we battle evil, that is not Gods will for the earth.
I agree it's problematic.
But then just read how Jesus met His end.
Then you can ask a similar question: Wasn't there another way with no/much less pain for Jesus?
It's somewhat problematic but not distressing to me. We only look at things through finite eyes. When our earthly situations are looked upon through an infinite lens, knowing the ending to our story then things start to come more clearly into focus.
To think we could truly know, and eventually hate evil like our Father through dealing with annoying individuals is a bit short sighted. To know, and to hate evil we have to experience it's claws. I believe this is the way it HAD to be in order for us to be brought to completion. I believe the process God set in motion had a life of it's own within the confines of God's sovereignty. It doesn't mean God failed (God can't fail) and it doesn't mean he created evil. He set up life where we would know absence of him and then fullness of him. Could God done it differently? I think the answer is no. In order for him to create beings in his likeness in all areas, those with which he could fellowship and have relationship with then this is the process that needed to take place.
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 11:07:19 PM
If he was, then he will certainly help me. If he was speaking to WillieH however, then it is important that he listen I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace. I have no fear towards my Father. I feel reasonably confident that it was definitely a word to WillieH, I myself have already prayed that I would practice what I preach. I am not afraid, and I have no reason to fear.
I have just now taken time to read your prophecy to WillieH.
"This
perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;" Lefein
As for me, the "perhaps" jumped out; Should the Lord give a prophecy to someone for someone
it wont be "perhaps is a prophecy for you."
It either is or it is not.
That word was for your self for you testified of its accomplishment,
"
I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace." Lefein
The Lord knew you needed to vent your thoughts, you did, it is now time
for you to listen to them. I love you my friend. As the The Lord brings
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2010, 06:40:13 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 13, 2010, 11:07:19 PM
If he was, then he will certainly help me. If he was speaking to WillieH however, then it is important that he listen I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace. I have no fear towards my Father. I feel reasonably confident that it was definitely a word to WillieH, I myself have already prayed that I would practice what I preach. I am not afraid, and I have no reason to fear.
I have just now taken time to read your prophecy to WillieH.
"This perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;" Lefein
As for me, the "perhaps" jumped out; Should the Lord give a prophecy to someone for someone
it wont be "perhaps is a prophecy for you." It either is or it is not.
That word was for your self for you testified of its accomplishment,
"I feel in my spirit the calm delight that comes with His peace." Lefein
The Lord knew you needed to vent your thoughts, you did, it is now time
for you to listen to them. I love you my friend. As the The Lord brings
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
I am not mentioning this to one particular person but to the community as a whole. I know that when I am disturbed by another individual something is wrong within me. There is a part of myself that needs to be put to the flame and burned out. Pride, vanity, self righteousness and insecurity are at the base of offense taken. When I take offense (and I do) I now know I need to look inward rather than point fingers. I need to remove the plank from my own eye so I can clearly see the speck in my brothers.
Lord, help ME not take offense. Remove from me all that doesn't please you. Remove the vanity, the pride, self righteousness and insecurities within myself so that I am a vessel of love rather than dissention. Help me to be a vessel of peace and not a worker of inequity.
In Jesus Name...Amen.
"—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these." Isa. 45:7
Once we yeild and allow the Holy Spirit to have us to "know" that evil, "bad" râ‛a‛ A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces)
Then He will begin to mold us into vessels that are unmared made to honor and love.
I have a plate on the front of my car it reads "Psalm 90:3" that verse of scripture is Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
Once we are allowed to see, that it is the Lord God who does this work, we will find a rest.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2010, 07:00:03 PM
"—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these." Isa. 45:7
Once we yeild and allow the Holy Spirit to have us to "know" that evil, "bad" râ‛a‛ A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces)
Then He will begin to mold us into vessels that are unmared made to honor and love.
I have a plate on the front of my car it reads "Psalm 90:3" that verse of scripture is Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
Once we are allowed to see, that it is the Lord God who does this work, we will find a rest.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 14, 2010, 07:04:22 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2010, 07:00:03 PM
"—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these." Isa. 45:7
Once we yeild and allow the Holy Spirit to have us to "know" that evil, "bad" râ‛a‛ A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces)
Then He will begin to mold us into vessels that are unmared made to honor and love.
I have a plate on the front of my car it reads "Psalm 90:3" that verse of scripture is Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
Once we are allowed to see, that it is the Lord God who does this work, we will find a rest.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
:2thumbs:
Romans 14
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person's faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 14, 2010, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Do you believe that prophets are perfect?
Yes, the first time and every time.
I meant their vessel. God uses weak and broken vessels to get his message through. Sometimes those vessels are not what the world esteems as godly, for God uses the weak and the foolish to confound the wise. It is not up to our carnal reasoning to decide who or who is not a prophet, but it is up to the lord. If we think ourselves know better than the lord, then we will not grow as christians, but even be a hinderance to the work of the lord.
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 14, 2010, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Do you believe that prophets are perfect?
Yes, the first time and every time.
I meant their vessel. God uses weak and broken vessels to get his message through. Sometimes those vessels are not what the world esteems as godly, for God uses the weak and the foolish to confound the wise. It is not up to our carnal reasoning to decide who or who is not a prophet, but it is up to the lord. If we think ourselves know better than the lord, then we will not grow as christians, but even be a hinderance to the work of the lord.
I am certain that Beloved Servant meant by no means that the propehts themselves, as men of God were perfect, but that the "word given" by the prophet was perfect. Should I be in error, correct me my friend.
Jeremiah 20:7-10 (Jeremiah, a Prophet)
Matthew 11: 2-3 (John the Baptist, a Prophet)
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2010, 07:00:03 PM
"—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these." Isa. 45:7
Once we yeild and allow the Holy Spirit to have us to "know" that evil, "bad" râ‛a‛ A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces)
Make me think of:
EBRPs 29 Thou shalt shepherd them with a sceptre of iron,––as a potter's vessel, shalt thou dash them in pieces.
Jeremiah 14:14
Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
I think there is a clear difference between those who do not do Gods will and those who do not.
Those who don't do Gods will cannot be thought of as doing Gods will, for God did not send them.
So with this i mind, when God works all things, it must mean that even though people are doing things which he did not command, he will use this evil and turn it into good, for he is the wise master to work all things for good.
So whatever you belive, whether God is the author of evil or not, good will prevail.
Quote from: Lefein on November 14, 2010, 08:02:56 PM
Jeremiah 20:7-10 (Jeremiah, a Prophet)
Matthew 11: 2-3 (John the Baptist, a Prophet)
Are giving an example for something? If so I fail to see it.
Jeremiah spoke the words of the Lord, if the Lord chose not to do what He said, that does not make the prophet in error.
And should John ask, are you He who is coming, makes him human and not given the understanding, yet.
willieH: Hi Tank... :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 08:11:12 PM
Jeremiah 14:14
Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
I think there is a clear difference between those who do not do Gods will and those who do not.
GOD is working
ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL, and "ALL
THINGS" does not disinclude "
ANY THING", does itTank? --
Eph 1:11 -- when will the Scriptures be believed by the people?
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 08:11:12 PMThose who don't do Gods will cannot be thought of as doing Gods will, for God did not send them.
This is
NOT what the quoted Scripture says. It SAYS that GOD didnt
COMMAND them,
SEND them... neither did He
SPEAK to them...
IT DOES NOT SAY ----- that HIS abstinance from SPEAKING, SENDING and COMMANDING these, is NOT "His WILL" being done by them... :dontknow:
The WILL of GOD is
ALWAYS done... for HE is working ALL THINGS... according TO IT. That is something that IS WRITTEN...
JESUS did and spoke
NOTHING of Himself... that He did and spoke NOTHING of His own heart, ...does not mean that HIS heart was not in harmony or that HIS heart held ANY disagreement with whatever was DONE and SAID by Him. :dontknow:
CHRIST was not therefore a "PUPPET nor a ROBOT"... He was
IN AGREEMENT... with what He SAID and DID... even though what He SAID and DID, did not originate from Him ---
SELF.
Until you (or ANY of US) are
made BY HIM, into this VERY SAME IMAGE...
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 08:11:12 PM
So with this i mind, when God works all things, it must mean that even though people are doing things which he did not command, he will use this evil and turn it into good, for he is the wise master to work all things for good.
NOW you're talkin'! :nod: ...If GOD is
USING EVIL for GOOD, then He is actively (in USING it) involved with it. within the manifestation of His "WILL"... Can you not, or maybe a better way of saying...
The maker does not REACT to the "dirt", or plan around the doings of DIRT... the "dirt" REACTS to its MAKER and the doings of HIM. :nod:
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 08:11:12 PM
So whatever you belive, whether God is the author of evil or not, good will prevail.
Isaiah 45:7 --- The
WORD PLAINLY says He
created EVIL... [/i]... :dontknow:
The Scripture PLAINLY says the GOD
sends evil -- here are a few of MANY which note this --
Job 42:11 -- Jer 4:6 -- and the quoted Scripture PLAINLY says that He
Created EVIL --
Isaiah 45:7 -- and The Scriptures PLAINLY note Him working
ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- and is Creator of
ALL THINGS --
John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 --
willieH :cloud9:
Maybe there is something to what you are saying, but I take this simple idea.
Gods will = To do good, to give life, to bless, for his thoughts towards us are good
Our will= good or evil
If we do evil then God rewards us with evil. the law of cause and effect, we reap what we sow. If we do good we will reap good. But here we see that God is now impersonal, but merely a law of God that he has set up. But God personal is allways good towards us.
I think that the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was there to teach mankind when they were ready, but Adam and Eve ate it out of disobedience. Perhaps the original plan was for them to eat it at a later date, so that they learn and overcome evil.
With this is mind, when God created evil, he created it to bring wisdom and understanding that such evil is against his nature and his ways.
The fact that death will be destroyed ,shows that evil is not something of God. For God is eternity
death and evil therefore must be a temporary thing, that God permits for this time of darkness, in this evil world where God is not completely in control.
For God to be completely in control in this world is negating the point of this world. This world is here because God is not completely in control, because we do things out of our own will, something that you admit, that man does have a will outside of God. If God were completely in control, this world would not exist and man would not have a will outside of God.
If mans will is outside of God it means he can do anyhting that God does not permit. A man can swear at a person or beat them up, or perhaps kill them. All these choices are there which are outside the will of God, whichever choice the man makes it is not Gods will. However if aman does good to a person, he can pray fo rthem, he can buy them groceries, he can wish them a good day, these things are inside the will of God. This is what Christ did, he was inside the will of God but yet was not a robot. Being inside the will of god is not merely one choice, but rather many choices. Christ had freedom to do things inside the fathers will, he did not have to follow a divine script and when opportunity arised he followed the fathers will to fullfill scripture.
Isaiah 45:7 --- Again, when will you BELIEVE what is written in the WORD? The WORD PLAINLY says He created EVIL... If you do not BELIEVE this, then you DOUBT the WORD... :dontknow:
willie
I doubt certain scriptures as I reason to their true meaning. I could throw you another scripture and ask you the same question. I am after the true revelation of God and this takes time. Taking the word at face value is often misunderstood, as many christians often do this and live a very limited lifestyle i.e unless its in the word I don't believe it, yet some of these christians show their hypocrosy, by using a computer and web camera to show case their arguments.
Until you (or ANY of US) are made BY HIM, into this VERY SAME IMAGE... (VIA your own ADMISSION, of Doing and Saying NOTHING of yourself)... then you (or ANY of US) in whatever degree, remain obstinate toward YHVH, and are not aligned with His COMMANDS of you. And are NOT like CHRIST, because of this discrepancy, ...End of story.
So being in disagreement with the will of YHVH is not his will, something I already said many times.
Gods will is ALL of us to follow him and in time, all will follow him, as they shed their own evils and pick up the heart and will of God. You may notice that in todays world even unbelivers are starting to behave more like Christ, for his spirit is being poured out on all flesh and so we have unbelivers doing charity work for the good of others. Go back to Roman times and such charity was non existent, the charity they did back then was to offer the local priest their kid to burn at the altar.
Many times we confuse the will of God and think it must be super holy and only the apostles or pastors are in congruent with it, when in fact a simple act of kindness is the will of God, if only more would belive this with childlike faith and belive that helping an old granny across the road , is the will of God, unbelivers every day are doing the will of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2010, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 14, 2010, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Do you believe that prophets are perfect?
Yes, the first time and every time.
I meant their vessel. God uses weak and broken vessels to get his message through. Sometimes those vessels are not what the world esteems as godly, for God uses the weak and the foolish to confound the wise. It is not up to our carnal reasoning to decide who or who is not a prophet, but it is up to the lord. If we think ourselves know better than the lord, then we will not grow as christians, but even be a hinderance to the work of the lord.
I am certain that Beloved Servant meant by no means that the propehts themselves, as men of God were perfect, but that the "word given" by the prophet was perfect. Should I be in error, correct me my friend.
I meant their Word.
That was the topic of discussion; nothing more, nothing less.
Thanks Micah.
willieH: Hi Tank... :winkgrin:
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 12:55:50 AM
Maybe there is something to what you are saying, but I take this simple idea.
Gods will = To do good, to give life, to bless, for his thoughts towards us are good
Our will= good or evil
(1) --- Where (in the
WORD) does it
SAY, ...That "God's WILL =
to do good, to give life, to bless, for His thoughts towards us are good" ???????It is without a DOUBT that the
WILL of God contains within it, ...and is shown to be IN WRATH --- toward the human race and its manifest behaviors... and that WRATH is availed on many occasions toward men, often unto HIS OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE!!! ...Several times He has enacted HARSH JUDGMENTS toward man... and is seen to be (not emotionally, but righteously) ANGRY toward man! :dontknow:
(2) --- Where does it
SAY, ...that ---
"OUR WILL = Good or Evil" ????? The
WORD notes that the condition of the HEART OF MAN =
DESPARATELY WICKED!!! --- ABOVE ALL THINGS!!! --
Jer 17:9 -- Where do you get
"GOOD" out of "
DESPARATELY WICKED -- ABOVE ALL THINGS"
???As always, you are welcome to your present observations... but these statements have no foundation in the
WORD of God...
It is HIS PURPOSE that is the on-going "AGENDA" here... and IN that PURPOSE, and by your own admission... He
uses EVIL within the processing of that AGENDA in the realm of the Finite... which shall end up for GOOD... :dontknow: Which in fact IS His PURPOSE for ALL in the realm of Eternity...
willieH :cloud9:
Thank you WillieH, I cannot express myself in such a way. I seem to be more abrupt and suttle in my responses. The God that I have put my trust and believe in, has never been not in total control of His purpose and plan.
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.
(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"
I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AM
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.
(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"
I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.
So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?
CHB
willieH: Hi Tank... :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AMJeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
God obviously
LOVES us and
PEACE is the end result of His agenda for ALL of us
Thereby DEMOTING the
WORD of truth which notes in TEN places that
PARTIALITY is NOT GOOD, and that
YHVH is NOT PARTIAL to one or the other --
Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 -- (& 8 others)
That said... in the processing of the AGENDA of GOD is WRATH, which is ORDAINED to come against us to display to ALL that the misbehaviors which EXACT that WRATH are NOT ACCEPTABLE:
Rom 9:16-22 -- notes that MERCY is not DUE to the behaviors of Men -- of themselves rather, from
YHVH only --
verse 16 -- for they are unable to RESIST the WILL of
YHVH which SHALL find FAULT in those behaviors --
verse 19 -- which OCCURED according to HIS WILL! And indeed HE is the
MAKER --
verse 21 -- of the things considered DISHONORABLE which are ...
FITTED to DESTRUCTION --
verse 22Jer 28:14 -- And I will be found of you saith
YHVH and I WILL TURN YOU
[you wont "turn yourself by your own doing"] away from YOUR CAPTIVITY, and I WILL GATHER YOU
[you won't gather yourself by your own doing"] from ALL nations, and from ALL PLACES whither --
I HAVE DRIVEN YOU [you did not go into CAPTIVITY of your own], saith
YHVH and I WILL BRING YOU ...
AGAIN [you were once NOT IN CAPTIVITY] into the place whence ---
I CAUSED YOU to be CARRIED AWAY
GREAT
WRATH is found within the
CAPTIVITY of
BONDAGE...
Do you think the Children of Israel, while in BONDAGE to EGYPT, were having the "time of their lives", Tank? :mshock: Or is the TRUTH, ...that there was there MUCH SUFFERING and TORMENT endured in it, as well as UNJUST treatment brought against them during the EXPERIENCE of that
CAPTIVITY? :dontknow: Many DIED while in that CAPTIVITY, did they not? Many of those deaths were unjust and BRUTAL as well... and yet...
YHVH by His own
WORD, ...sent them into this CAPTIVITY.
There is
PURPOSE in CAPTIVITY, or it would not EXIST. And there is NOT
PEACE within the moments of CAPTIVITY, for it is PURPOSED to display FREEDOM, ...its MOST WONDERFUL and LOVING
OPPOSITE!
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AMJust one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.
FIRST --- No one "TOLD" me ANY of what I believe, Tank... I have researched the
WORD for 34 years, and have gained what I "believe" from that personal search... :nod:
SECOND --- where is the Scriptural SUBSTANCE which establishes these words, Tank... [mod edit) When the
WORD says there are
NONE RIGHTEOUS --
Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12 [mod edit] the only difference between you (I include my own experience in this example) and Hitler, is that GOD decided to occupy YOU and your doings (to the degree that He has), for HIS PURPOSE in the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... in Hitlers case, ...He decided for the most part, NOT to "occupy"... :dontknow:
Quote from: willieH(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AMI got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.
[mod edit]
I CLEARLY requested that you note --- Where does it
SAY, ...that ---
"OUR WILL = Good or Evil" [mod edit]
willieH :cloud9:
Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him. You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean. Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way. You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.
God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him.
God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.
Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations. He is the truth, and He is the Life. Live therefore, because you are in Life. You are also in Truth. So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you. In Jesus' name - Amen.
Quote from: CHB on November 15, 2010, 09:39:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AM
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.
(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"
I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.
So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?
CHB
It doesnt say God planted it specifically, but does say every tree that is planted was good to eat. Then it adds also the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of knowledge also.
I tend to belive that God planted the tree of knowledge, but im not 100 percent certain.
But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 10:20:42 PM
But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.
I think you will agree with me that Father knew even before Adam and Eve were created, they would eat of that tree.
Then I only can conclude He planted it for a reason or didn't remove it for a reason.
So imo because knew billions year before creation they would eat from that tree He could never have intended to let them eat at a more mature age. Simply because He knew that never would happen.
Quotean immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations.
The had no knowledge of good and evil. That what the what teh tree was for. Without eating from it they would never 'mature' and by eating it they..... well you know the story.
I believe we are here on this earth to learn and develop, if the earth was all unicorns, waterfalls and endless golden fields we sure wouldn't learn much. [edit] if we didn't have the chance to do bad choices then existance would be pretty meaningless. Could also be other reasons, like we are being shown the reasons why we shouldn't act against God and probably lots of other reasons.
I believe we will all be held accountable for our sins and wrongdoings when the day of judgement comes, and will recieve proper corrective "treatment".
Also if God didn't plan the tree of good and evil, or didn't intend for it to be planted, and if he didn't know Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit then he wouldn't be all powerfull and all knowing. I believe he is, and I believe everything that has happened was meant to happen. [edit], but God already knows what choices we will make.
I think you will agree with me that Father knew even before Adam and Eve were created, they would eat of that tree.
Then I only can conclude He planted it for a reason or didn't remove it for a reason.
So imo because knew billions year before creation they would eat from that tree He could never have intended to let them eat at a more mature age. Simply because He knew that never would happen
whitewings
Depends on how you see God, if God is merely writing a story script, then your position is very strong. But I beleive that God is flexible and working in creation even now, for he is the God of I am and works with us every day and works around his word. E.g the book of revelation paints a pretty bleak future, but if God is present, things do not have to be as bleak as they seem, he can change things around. e.g the beast forces all the world to worship him. God is so flexible that he can change things so that the world is only one country, so if people ask him, "Hey I thought all the world would worship him"
He can reply "All the world did, the rest of the people belong to me" .But if people are continually being evil then God can use the scripture so that all people worship the beast. Just a few ways in which God can work around his word and be present in creation, guiding them to salvation.
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 10:20:42 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 15, 2010, 09:39:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 15, 2010, 01:54:24 AM
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.
(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"
I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.
So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?
CHB
It doesnt say God planted it specifically, but does say every tree that is planted was good to eat. Then it adds also the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of knowledge also.
I tend to belive that God planted the tree of knowledge, but im not 100 percent certain.
But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.
Hi.
It sounds to me like he planted the tree oF good and evil.
(Gen. 2:9) And out of the ground MADE THE LORD TO GROW EVERY TREE THAT IS PLEASANT TO THE SIGHT.. {which Eve said of the tree of good and evil}.. AND GOOD FOR FOOD;.. {which Eve said of the tree of good and evil}..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
You can't get any thing else out of this verse.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on November 16, 2010, 01:14:22 AMDepends on how you see God, if God is merely writing a story script, then your position is very strong. But I beleive that God is flexible and working in creation even now, for he is the God of I am and works with us every day and works around his word.
For me that are 2 different things TT.
I fully agree God is working in creation right now (and all years since creation). So on that point we agree.
But I
also think it is according to script.
If God wrote the script He obviously agrees with it.
If the script is writing itself then God at the very least knew how the scrip will develop and by not altering the script He accepted it.
And even if He alters things He knew 10 billion years ago that for example He is going to alter something in 2 hours and 3 seconds from now.
YLTRev 138 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
TCB Rev 13:8 Then everybody who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughted since the foundation of the world.
What does that verse mean for you TT?
For me it means Father and Son made a plan even before creation began (begun?)
Jesus wasn't killed then. The plan (=fact) of His crucifixion was agreed upon then. The script was agreed and written.
The death of Jesus was not Father adapting to human behavior.
:2c:
Quote from: Lefein on November 15, 2010, 10:17:26 PM
Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him. You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean. Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way. You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.
God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him.
God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.
Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations. He is the truth, and He is the Life. Live therefore, because you are in Life. You are also in Truth. So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you. In Jesus' name - Amen.
God bless you brother, your words are a blessing to me. You have a very bright future ahead of you, the fear of the father is within you.
[mod edit]
Quote from a sister from another site. "Jesus answered this question in the following which might apply :
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Satan isn't like the yin and yang with a little bit of good in him. NO. Satan is by nature, an instrument of God Who is Good. God uses evil for His good plans and purposes.
Satan has no claim on anything that is Good of God. Likewise, us humans, have no claim on God for anything good that we are or do! All good is of and from God. That applies to Satan too.
Blessings
Quote from: Lefein on November 15, 2010, 10:17:26 PM
Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him. You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean. Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way. You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.
God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him.
God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.
Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations. He is the truth, and He is the Life. Live therefore, because you are in Life. You are also in Truth. So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you. In Jesus' name - Amen.
Hi Lefein,
I don't believe I have read where any one has said that Christ isn't in thinktank, or that he isn't a a son of God. No one has said that God wasn't with thinktank or that God didn't love him or love wasn't in him, or with him, or any of those things. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like you are telling thinktank that this is what we have been saying? Just because I don't agree with a person doesn't mean that I am thinking all the things you have implied.
Paul was always warning the brethern about different things and he disagreed with Peter about things but he didn't tell them that Christ wasn't in them, nor loved them, nor were they sons of God. Is this what you were thinking, because I haven't read that any one else said this?
Just the way I understood your post.
CHB
Blessings don't need to be dissected friend.
:)
I've decided to permanently lock this thread. Also, I believe that when it goes indepth such as this thread did, that at some point it's just arguing freewill/all sovereign (against forum guidelines) by other names, and bad things start happening. I believe we can mention these issues sort of in passing, but to dwell directly on them for an extended period of time obviously doesn't work. We've potentially lost one of our longest-term members due to the things that occurred in this particular thread, and almost lost a couple of other members over it.
In the future such discussion will be held to very brief interchanges, typically mixed within other threads as it comes up; but for indepth exploration/info/review, people can be referred to this thread and others, such as the following;
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/i_make_peace_and_create_evil_not_any_more._6497.0.html