The Problem of Evil

[legoman]

Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.

:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"

The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My  :2c: Blessings....

That is fine,  but  so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil. 

Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now?   That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.

What you have to understand here is this is only part of the scenario.  In my current mental state, I would never kill anyone, let alone someone's entire family.  So God would not be able to cause me to murder anyone, without first changing my mental state to a state where it would seem acceptable to me (for whatever wacko reason) to go kill a bunch of people.  But then there would have to be a reason or cause that would change my mental state.  Perhaps if I started overloading on drugs I may reach a mental state where it seems "reasonable" that I should commit foul.  But then again, something would have to cause me to start overloading on drugs - as it is now I barely even drink a glass of wine.

So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act.  Everything in this universe works through a series of causes.  In that sense - God is the indirect cause of everything that happens - because He is the direct cause that started the whole universe off.  So does God directly or indirectly cause evil to happen? 

Example:  Event A causes event B.  Event B causes event C.  Event C causes event D.  If God caused event A, then implicitly He also caused event D (at least indirectly).


It is somewhat a matter of semantics and depends how you define the terms - but God does not need to directly cause anyone to sin because we all volunteer to sin every day.  Any sin we do, we do because we wanted to.  So the direct cause of why we sin is because we wanted to at that moment in time.  So if at some future time I commit grievous crime, it will because I chose to do it.  However that does not meant there are not other events that caused me to go down that path.

As I said - we sin because we want to.  But why do we want to?  Our hearts are weak and tempted.  But why are our hearts weak so they fall into the traps of temptation?  Who made our heart?  Who made us?

If we trace the causes and events back far enough, then we will reach God - who is the first direct cause of the universe - and thus indirectly caused every other event in the universe to happen (good and evil).  I wager God knew what He was doing... so it is all for a good purpose.

And as I said before I believe it all MUST be this way if we are to achieve incorruption and gain full understanding and knowledge of the truth.

[Lefein]

The idea that God is the source, the root of every evil, well...quite frankly it is hideous for all the right reasons.

I wonder who are we worshiping here - God or Hell?  Did we remove the doctrine of Hell the place of eternal torture, only to exalt it to being the very personhood of the eternal God?

If out of the infinite, eternal, everlasting heart of God came forth the expression of all wrongness, and separation from Perfection - then God is indeed Hell.

[willieH]

Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect.  The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not.

FIRST --- What verse SAYS that "ANGELS have the knowledge of good and evil"?

As I see it, and because there is no text which makes this statement you just made... That said statement is an assumption based upon a veiled understanding of SYMBOLIC texts...  :dontknow:

SECOND --- If God "made us PERFECT" we would (as does HE) have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL...  :dontknow:  For HE has this KNOWLEDGE ...AND... is PERFECT -- Gen 3:22

willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

Well if that is the case, and Angels do not know between good and evil, then it is perfectly reasonable for Satan to have fallen due to his own ignorance.

"My people perish for a lack of knowledge" And so dying Satan died!  Being absent of God in his iniquity.

[legoman]

I did not say God had no control, such a statement is illogical and without faith. I said that God does not have total control, this is why we pray for Gods angels to protect our loved ones, to protect from enemies - those who do not have the heart of God, including the devil and his angels.

Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking.  He is in control but He doesn't have total control?  That is not control at all.  That is making God to be not God.

Do you think its Gods will for a mad gunman to gundown a school?

Not as an end in itself.  But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned. 

There are biblical examples of this: 
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.

But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself.  There was a good reason for all of the above.  We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.

Gods will is to change the heart of that gunman and set them free before even going down such a path. When such evil happens God responds by healing those who have been hurt, but unless his people take up the cause, they will not be healed, but likely go towards destruction.

Then apparently you are saying God's will fails quite often.

I am amazed by some of the statments here in this thread made about God, I think many have over thought this process and tangled themselves up concerning Gods true will.

As I am amazed by some of the statements you have made here in this thread about God, specifically that you think He does not have control in some things and that His intentions are not achieved.

Question:  Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?

[legoman]

double post

[Lefein]

It seems Legoman that you are offering only two choices when it comes to our beliefs concerning our infinite, uncontainable Heavenly Father of whom is Perfect, Righteous, and Good, and no darkness is found in him...

a) God who never fails in his working of iniquity in the hearts of men;

.or.

b) God who fails often because he wants only to work Good in the hearts of men.

Even with these choices, I'd rather have b).  I could love that God, and I'd rather love a failure, than kiss the feet of a devil.

[thinktank]

How can the angels not know about evil, when they are guarding his saints everyday?

Did the angels in lots house not recognize that these men were after them?

They did blind them after all

So for some reason, some angels have rebelled and others have not.

The devil seems to have knowledge of good and evil because God calls him a god. Also God called Adam and Eve gods, because they had knowledge of good and evil.

Perhaps there are some angels in heaven who are kept in innocence, such as original Adam and Eve, but I think more mature angels such as archangel michael are fully aware of evil.

[legoman]

It seems Legoman that you are offering only two choices when it comes to our beliefs concerning our infinite, uncontainable Heavenly Father of whom is Perfect, Righteous, and Good, and no darkness is found in him...

a) God who never fails in his working of iniquity in the hearts of men;

.or.

b) God who fails often because he wants only to work Good in the hearts of men.

Even with these choices, I'd rather have b).  I could love that God, and I'd rather love a failure, than kiss the feet of a devil.

You contradict yourself when you believe God is perfect and yet still fails.

If you believe God fails often you have no assurance He can save all men, nor that He can even save anyone (including yourself).

Lefein, do you realize that this is truth:  God (directly or indirecty) caused EVERYTHING to happen by His creative act of causing the universe to come into existence?  That is the truth.

[legoman]

Sorry if I was confused by your last post Lefein... those are not really the choices I am offering.  If you want to break it down like that, these are the choices I'm offering:

a) God is in control of all things
b) God is not in control of all things

The bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.

[Beloved Servant]

Isa 29:13  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

"Farness", is a matter of distance.  It shouldn't be confusing at all...

As for the good Lord using the word "distance", the CLV version;

Mat 15:8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.

Ahhh...

It certainly is convenient to be more accurate the second time around.

[Lefein]

Sorry if I was confused by your last post Lefein... those are not really the choices I am offering.  If you want to break it down like that, these are the choices I'm offering:

I believe that Yahweh is neither sinful, nor does it work iniquity into the hearts of men, neither did he invent imperfection, corruption, wickedness, or devilry of any kind.

He is perfect, he is sovereign, he is the creator of all things that exist/are true, and he is good, righteous, and above all else; Perfect, and Love.

If you believe God fails often you have no assurance He can save all men, nor that He can even save anyone (including yourself).

If one believes that God is the author of lies, and sinfulness, and causes it in the hearts of men; then indeed as Paul the Poster said - they have no assurance whatsoever that they won't be the next deflowering, monstrous tyrant.  And indeed, knowing that God is not a respecter of persons, if he is the author of evil - they have the fullest assurance in the world that they will be amongst the most wicked sinners to ever express their vile trade.  They will rape, they will pillage, they will murder, they will lie, and they will do it without discrimination to toddler, adult, and every soul in between.

Every manner and method of wickedness they (even you, and I) will do, and they (even you, and I) will do it with a wicked grin...and then we'll go through the fire for the very things God made us do, like an angry, drunk parent who rails against his child for his own faults.

For God does not play favourites, and if God is the inventor of evil, and the one who brings it forth; We're assuredly on his list of people to turn into devils.  We can forget about being saints, if this is the way of God.

Lefein, do you realize that this is truth:  God (directly or indirecty) caused EVERYTHING to happen by His creative act of causing the universe to come into existence?  That is the truth.

I believe you may be misunderstanding the nature of truth for an inaccurate idea of sovereignty.

God brought forth everything that is True - sin is not a truth, lies are not the truth, they are the farthest things from Truth, the farthest things (more accurately "nothings" as they are perversions, or absences) from God who is Truth.

The bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.

The Bible also affirms over, and over, and over, and over again that people often turn away from his will.  They rebel...

God is in control, but it is not the control of a divine ventriloquist.

It certainly is convenient to be more accurate the second time around.

I wasn't inaccurate the first time as far as I recall...but alright.

[Beloved Servant]

willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

Excellent offering!  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Amen...  :thumbsup:

Might I preface what I am about to say...

FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions.  Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:

SECOND --- The "land of UZ" is the place where this all takes place -- Job 1:1 -- the word "UZ" is UWTS -- #5780  which is a derivitive of "UZ" --- UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) --  :declare:

Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises) YHVH  GOD! -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not... 

Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)...  :dontknow:   Advising YHVH  that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face -- Job 2:5

IOW ..."satan" suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" -- Job 2:5  -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB!  And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "GOOD")... 

:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:

So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the suggestion as well as the suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator.  And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...

Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which YHVH  Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings... GOOD and EVIL...

And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings...  as well as which brings forth the PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:

So... in conclusion...

In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a LIVING man,  while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of YHVH  for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)

God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "cursing" never takes place in this writing...

And so those who are UPRIGHT, regardless of GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him, never cursing Him for the removals of GOOD as they LIVED...

willieH  :cloud9:

Amen, HE WROTE THE BOOK.
Job, perhaps, is Christ?
Shhhh...don't tell anyone.

[thinktank]

Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking.  He is in control but He doesn't have total control?  That is not control at all.  That is making God to be not God.

weasel words  :mshock:  :laughing7:  . I appreciate you enjoy an All powerful God, but consider what Jesus said, he said concenring the little ones, it is impossible but offences come, but woe to that man through whom it comes.

If God is all powerful he would stop this injustice happening to the innocents, because that's what love does, love does not sit there and do nothing. For some complex reason that we will not fully understand until we get to heaven, God does not prevent these injustices that occur on a daily basis. In my current level of understanding I belive the reason is because God is working through us and because of that, his power is limited upon the earth, for he has given it to us flawed vessels. Thats why the scripture says, the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Literally a man or woman of God can change the course of an entire nation, because they are Gods mouthpiece upon the earth.


Not as an end in itself.  But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned.

There are biblical examples of this:
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.

But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself.  There was a good reason for all of the above.  We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.

But your theory, while true to a degree, still limits this learning to people of God, the people of the world deal with things the worlds way and that is to demand vengeance upon the wicked and generally have a bitter heart towards life and God, this attitude not the type of things that God desires.

The people of God learn the ways of God, because we must. When calamity happens it is most unfortunate, but God gives his people the strength to overcome even as He overcame and to do as he did, to forgive and be set free.


Question:  Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?

I hope so, especially after the revelation that man has a spirit, I am currently studying more about this and looking at the various scriptures.

[Beloved Servant]

Has this been posted?



King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

[legoman]

The bible affirms that a) is the truth - over and over and over and over and over again.

The Bible also affirms over, and over, and over, and over again that people often turn away from his will.  They rebel...

And why is that?  BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion.  But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...

[Lefein]

Has this been posted?

Yes.

And why is that?  BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion.  But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...

Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness".  Others put unbelief, like the King James.

Unbelief is different from outright rebellion.  Much different.

Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him.  It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act. 

I never used those terms,  I worded the issue exactly as it is.   Is God the cause of men doing evil or not?  I have never said we are free from cause.   But some here absolutely believe that we have nothing to do with anything we do.  ok, I am not against someone believing that, I am pointing out that they rarely include themselves in the full scope of such things and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary yet.

If he is absolutely the cause of everything then what assurance does a believer have that they will not one day be caused by God to be the next person who drowns some little kids because it was ordained that they do so?   No robot mode here, what you believe you think you will not do is irrelevant because according to some, you have absolutely no say in what you do.

[legoman]

Sorry thinktank - these are "weasel words" (for lack of a better term) you are speaking.  He is in control but He doesn't have total control?  That is not control at all.  That is making God to be not God.

weasel words  :mshock:  :laughing7:  . I appreciate you enjoy an All powerful God, but consider what Jesus said, he said concenring the little ones, it is impossible but offences come, but woe to that man through whom it comes.

If God is all powerful he would stop this injustice happening to the innocents, because that's what love does, love does not sit there and do nothing. For some complex reason that we will not fully understand until we get to heaven, God does not prevent these injustices that occur on a daily basis. In my current level of understanding I belive the reason is because God is working through us and because of that, his power is limited upon the earth, for he has given it to us flawed vessels. Thats why the scripture says, the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Literally a man or woman of God can change the course of an entire nation, because they are Gods mouthpiece upon the earth.


Not as an end in itself.  But I believe it is God's will for us to experience evil and learn how to overcome it - this would include events like the mad gunman you mentioned.

There are biblical examples of this:
It was God's will that Judas betray Christ and that the Romans would hang Him on the cross.
It was God's will that Pharoah be hardened and then persecute Israel.
It was God's will that Job would be tormented.
etc.

But like I said we cannot stop there - that was not the purposed end in itself.  There was a good reason for all of the above.  We must follow the causes to their eventual end - not stop in the middle - if we want to learn why God would will something.

But your theory, while true to a degree, still limits this learning to people of God, the people of the world deal with things the worlds way and that is to demand vengeance upon the wicked and generally have a bitter heart towards life and God, this attitude not the type of things that God desires.

The people of God learn the ways of God, because we must. When calamity happens it is most unfortunate, but God gives his people the strength to overcome even as He overcame and to do as he did, to forgive and be set free.


Question:  Do you think God will achieve His will to save all people?

I hope so, especially after the revelation that man has a spirit, I am currently studying more about this and looking at the various scriptures.

I hope you didn't take offence at the "weasel words" comment  :Sparkletooth:  :grin:

But I think our base viewpoints are so different, that discussing the problem of evil is really moot.  There are more important issues with respect to God's sovereignty that need to be studied before tackling the problem of evil.  You seem to believe:
- God is not quite all powerful/in control of everything
- I'm not sure but it seems you are not sure if God will even be able to save all people?  Keep on studying thinktank.
Given that base I can see how you would come to the conclusion you have.

Be well...

[legoman]

So you see its not as simple as implying that God will flip someone into "robot mode" or whatever and cause them to do whatever evil act. 

I never used those terms,  I worded the issue exactly as it is.   Is God the cause of men doing evil or not?  I have never said we are free from cause.   But some here absolutely believe that we have nothing to do with anything we do.  ok, I am not against someone believing that, I am pointing out that they rarely include themselves in the full scope of such things and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary yet.

If he is absolutely the cause of everything then what assurance does a believer have that they will not one day be caused to be the next person who drowns some little kids?   No robot mode here, what you believe you think you will not do is irrelevant because according to some, you have absolutely no say in what you do.

RE: "robot mode" - But that's what you are implying.  If not then forget it.


Anyway, when it comes down to brass tacks, the only assurance that any of us have that we will not commit some foul crime in this life is simply the grace of God.  I am what I am because of the grace of God and nothing less.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart.  He could harden your heart or my heart if it so fulfilled His purpose.  Have you ever considered that you could have been Hitler if you had been born at the right time and place?  And there would have been nothing you could have done about it, because you would have done everything exactly as Hitler did.  Its only by the grace of God that we are what we are.

So since God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh did evil because of that - God did cause Pharaoh to do evil (either directly or indirectly, depending on how you define those terms).

So YES GOD is the first cause of everything in the universe.  And like I said, my life is in His hands.  I trust that He will have mercy on us all.

[Lefein]

Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?

[legoman]

Has this been posted?

Yes.

And why is that?  BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion.  But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...

Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness".  Others put unbelief, like the King James.

Unbelief is different from outright rebellion.  Much different.

Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him.  It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.

Are you looking at the right verse?

CLV
Romans 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

God locks people up in stubbornness.  Other translations say unbelief or disobedience.  It seems that if God didn't want people to rebel, He wouldn't lock them up in stubbornness...

[legoman]

Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?

God did not directly cause them to do that.

But indirectly He did. 

I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:

(actually I'm performing in a local theater production and will be out for the whole night, see you later...)

[Lefein]

I think you likewise misinterpret the passage as meaning God forced them into a place they did not want to be, rather than God revealing to them that they do not actually want to be where they think they want to be - by letting them spend a little more time there than they would by "fence straddling" between the world and God - and so seeing their error...will run to him, where he can give Mercy to all.

God did not directly cause them to do that.

But indirectly He did.

Jer 32:35  KJV

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jer 32:35 CLV

And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

Jer 32:35  AMP

And they built the high places [for worship] of Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom [son of Hinnom] to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire [in worship also of and] to Molech--which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind or heart that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It would seem, that this verse is more black and white than yours.

"I did not...cause Judah to sin"

Yet, they did so.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

Nothing mythical about what I am proposing.   What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning.   I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.

If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,

I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.

:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....