The Problem of Evil

[willieH]

I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.

it also sounds like applied calvinism...

sounds to you... which amounts to one whole, opinion...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :winkgrin:

[Lefein]

sounds to you... which amounts to one whole, opinion... 

Just like yours WillieH.  Like me, all you have are interpretations, and opinions, and vague ideas of the truth.  :laughing7:

As much as I may be wearing a veil...so too are you wearing a veil.  We both look through the glass darkly.  :dsunny:

So if you would please, mind your beam, while I try and remove this splinter of mine as I look in this mirror, which is still a little harder to see that I had hoped - considering there is a little bit of something in my eye... :boyheart:

:Peace:

[reFORMer]

The beam is something with which some build a house. 

Recently, in a dream about being taken by the pilot in his small but powerful jet fighter, it seemed we were near the mouth of the Mississippi River, where it empties into the gulf.  We put down with only about 28 percent of the way left to go.  He went to pee and so did I when he came out.  Someone came in and I couldn't finish, having about a third (28%?) left to go.  I decided I could hold it until ater.  I went to catch the pilot and a girl at the bar, not looking at me, acting jealous,  pushed some folded money toware me, saying what the pilot had told her to tell me: 

"If you can't keep up, you can't go up."  Then, just as I heard the jet ignite, I woke up.

We need to keep up with what God is doing or we are left behind.  If our character is not adequate then we cannot enter into the greater glory that awaits us.  Even Jesus had to go through death and hades in order to obtain the keys to death and hades, triumphing over him who had the power of death, taking that power for his own.

[WhiteWings]

2.  I did some checking.  Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar  :pointlaugh:   :LH: I had to do some research.

In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.

I found this, first of all, from the NT; 

"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.

II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";

Strong's -   lying spirit, spirit of deceit,  Young's "spirit of falsehood"

1Kings 22:22 And  said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold,  YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH  said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH  hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil against thee.

To me all the above means God plays an active role in deception. In Job we see God also sends a spirit of illness and bad fortune.
We are also veiled. Who did veil us?

3.  Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND"  :director:    LOL;

I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing.  I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.

"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware

No free will references James  :wacko2:
I think it gives us little info for this topic. In the OT God never punishes instantly. Then after a while He acts and corrects things. So eventually His will always overrules. Sodom didn't become evil instantly. They were evil for a long period of time before God destroyed it. Destroyed it with fire. Including childeren. Is that so different from the Molech worshippers?
:sigh:

[willieH]

sounds to you... which amounts to one whole, opinion... 

Just like yours willieH.  Like me, all you have are interpretations, and opinions, and vague ideas of the truth.  :laughing7:

The Scriptures SAY what they SAY... and you are not able to answer my post to you because religion blocks your way...

As much as I may be wearing a veil...so too are you wearing a veil.  We both look through the glass darkly.  :dsunny:

Yet another manifestation of the method of which you are so fond:   the ..."I know you are, but what am I", response method...  you obviously think to be quite effective, eh?  :laughing7:

So if you would please, mind your beam, while I try and remove this splinter of mine as I look in this mirror, which is still a little harder to see that I had hoped - considering there is a little bit of something in my eye...

[Mod edit]

I do not EVER mind admitting that I have things to LEARN... I am anxiously expectant of any new revealings, ...as I seek the pathway, which He has outlined for me -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- containing new revealings which YHVH, according to HIS WILL and DECLARATION, has noted I shall be availed... :boogie:

I believe that once you and I have arrived at our individual conclusions, ...you shall be quite surprised at which of the 2 of us (in this moment) was really dealing with a "beam"...  :laughhand:   

That which you "believe" at present, ...I have been EXPOSED to, and associated with, for EXTENDED periods of time (maybe even longer than you have been ...alive!)  And have, due to TRUTHFUL revelations within that TIME, due to HIS decison in conjunction with devoted study -- Jer 29:14 -- have since abandoned them...

Really, ...the only difference between us (because we are both quite fervently immersed in our faith) ...is likely I have been looking MUCH LONGER than you, and have had much more opportunity to discover the treasures which are available to be found...

This does not necessarily mean I know more about Scripture than do you, ...(though that is also very likely), ...but as far as LIFE teachings... There is little doubt!   :thumbsup:

Until you admit how old (or more likely YOUNG) you really are, Lefein... we shall not know for sure how much LIFE learning you are (possibly) without.   :winkgrin:

Maybe such a question intimidates you... eh? :dunno:  ...Guess we'll see if  ...it do or it don't...   :laughing7:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

The beam is something with which some build a house. 

Recently, in a dream about being taken by the pilot in his small but powerful jet fighter.  It seemed we were near the mouth of the Mississippi River, where it empties into the gulf.  We put down with only about 28 percent of the way left to go.  He went to pee and so did I when he came out.  Someone came in and I couldn't finish, having about a third (28%?) left to go.  I decided I could hold it until ater.  I went to catch the pilot and a girl at the bar, not looking at me, acting jealous,  pushed some folded money toware me, saying what the pilot had told her to tell me: 

"If you can't keep up, you can't go up."  Then, just as I heard the jet ignite, I woke up.

We need to keep up with what God is doing or we are left behind.  If our character is not adequate then we cannot enter into the greater glory that awaits us.  Even Jesus had to go through death and hades in order to obtain the keys to death and hades, triumphing over him who had the power of death, taking that power for his own.

:cloud9: Interesting dream.....thanks for posting it. It pointed something out to me I hadn't really considered before concerning part of a vision I shared I had about light going really fast, gradually becoming darkness, then gradually speeding up again in increments. It was going faster and faster as it became light again. He spoke to me I had just witnessed the creation. What didn't hit me until I read your dream, is that it was going FASTER in increments, returning to Spirit/light. We are part of that darkness, and He IS moving faster ever increasingly as we approach our destiny. Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ WW.....some very good points.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: A point to ponder.........God created us with the capacity (call it what you will) to sin. Paul talked about the very problem of doing what he didn't want to do and sin being in his members being the problem. So point is; He created us with the capacity, knowing that sin would raise up in our members as well, to disobey ANY law, any word He spoke, just by virtue of the fact He spoke it.

Now since He created us that way, would He not have to also take responsibility for what HE did in creating us that contributed directly to the inability to NOT sin? I think He did, by the Lamb slain from the beginning, BUT to teach us all the things that He IS, He had display what He is NOT, for "contrast". This is where He subjected us to hope, ie. placing us in a lowered position, knowing the outcome would be exactly opposite of what He spoke, even if it was only in our hearts to do evil......which was to let us know by EXPERIENCE, that we need a Savior. My  :2c:

[Molly]

To me all the above means God plays an active role in deception. In Job we see God also sends a spirit of illness and bad fortune.
We are also veiled. Who did veil us?

Take another look at the 1kings 22 passage and see if you think the prophet might be being sarcastic with the king.  Instead of saying, they are lying their heads off to you, king, he tells the king this elaborate vision he has of the Divine Council and God sending the lying spirit who volunteers to go and destroy the king through the mouths of his phoney prophets.

It's a veiled way of telling the king that his days are numbered if he proceeds with this war and the bad advice of his counselors.  The prophets are just a bunch of cowards who are telling the king what they know he wants to hear.  Doesn't that happen even today?

We are also veiled. Who did veil us?

We see that the disciples themselves are veiled before the death of Jesus because this body we live in is a veil.  Peter is clueless.  Judas is a thief.  Mostly they don't understand a word that he says.  When he rises from the dead, they are all astounded, and don't believe it, even though he has told them before, many times, what was going to happen. 

But Jesus is always patient and kind with the veiled, with only a few exceptions.

But, when your time is up with God, it's up.  His patience with evil eventually wears out.  There comes a point where those who don't repent are cut down.

I think the difference between the disciples and others is not their brilliance or their ability to see through the veil, but the relationship they have with Jesus,-- they love him and wait on him--and love covers a multitude of sins.

[CHB]

And consider this; the same lump...Who is to say that is not a single individual?  We all experience times of honour in the Lord's service, and times of dishonour in the Lord's service.

This is what I was trying to point out.

And everyone is destined to become all in all in the end but not everyone is destined to understand certain things now. Even Jesus told his deciples that they were given to understand but to the rest it was not.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Now I see that free will does cause confusion. My idea of free will is not the same as yours, so for clarifacation when I mean free will I mean freedom of choice, not freedom to be God.

? I never even considered free will can mean 'freedom to be God' ....

Adam and Eve could have been happy in the garden by choosing the tree of life instead of the tree of Good and evil,

I don't agree. If they can't resist that tree it means there life without it wasn't complete.

they would have lived for thousands of years enjoying the peace of the garden.

That's something you can't know. Perhaps they would have left later anyway because they got bored or God had another task for them. Or all went according to plan.

But that was not enough for Adam and Eve, they wanted more than to be happy, they wanted to be wise,

It means they were not completly happy. The feeling of missing knowledge was strong/unpleasant.

as God, this is often the case today. People have oppportuities every day to be happy, but they choose to be miserable and often in an effort to maintain their misery deny they even had an opportunity to be happy, in order to reinforce their own misery.

Some may have that choice. But for many life is hard. They have not much choice in most things.

If happyness is fake, it does not satisfy.

Then it was not complete happyness.

God and the devil don't work as a team, simply that they both know that God is higher in authority. They are on the opposites sides of morality. One is love the other is selfishness.

Read Job. They work as a team. God acts as the team leader/boss.
Satan asks if he may test/destroy Job in who God could not find fault. God could have refused satan's request. But He didn't. He even set out some guidelines as a team leader.
I know it sounds weird. But lets face it. Satan asked permission. God agreed.

They are not ying and yang for ying and yang are complimentary and exist for eternity. The devil is temporary and so is evil, for this reason the son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Future creations will not have to go through death like we have, if God created evil though it means future creations will have to go through evil, for that knowledge is still in existence if God does not destroy it.

I can agree with that but still my observation stands that God granted Satan's request.

Nde is challenging, it means  we were in heaven or reincarnate on this earth plane over again for different experiences to overcome.

The NDEs don't speak of 'over and over again'. However they indicate that most people can't even come near to God in Heaven. They have to grow/learn.

If this is true it does not change anything, other than some spirit beings might want to experience this temporary darkness and overcome it with love,

To overcome darkness you hav eto experience darkness. To experience darkness it has to be 'provided'.

a challenge... if you like, for these beings, but it does not mean that God created evil, simply they are taking advantage of this fallen state while it is availalble in this temporary drip, drop of eternity, maybe they are testing to see how far Love can really go. But who these beings are and how this process works is a different story.

You speak about spirits, beings and they. But in reality (if the NDE is correct) they are WE.
Fallen state/dip/drop/etc. Who provided all that?
Don't you think light has great significance? I think it has. And after cutting of that light it can't be expected things stay the same.
Maybe it's one of those topics that will never reach agreement. For me it's clear that God, let put it mildly, has a very active role in negativity. With or without very good reasons.
:2c:

[Molly]

Read Job. They work as a team. God acts as the team leader/boss.
Satan asks if he may test/destroy Job in who God could not find fault. God could have refused satan's request. But He didn't. He even set out some guidelines as a team leader.
I know it sounds weird. But lets face it. Satan asked permission. God agreed.

I wouldn't exactly say they work as a team LOL.

The book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible.

We are getting here a glimpse of the Divine Council of which Satan was a member before he was kicked out of heaven by Michael.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

--Job 1


So who are these ben elohiym ['sons of God']  who make up this council?  They aren't human, that's for sure.  We are told in the New Testament that Satan is the god of this aion. [2Cor 4:4]  So they are gods.  If you accept this one detail, it changes how you perceive everything.

Or, you can just ignore it, spiritualize it, or dismiss it.

But our God is the Supreme Being.  He is bragging on his servant Job, and Satan challenges him, so he allows Satan to try to prove his premise that Job is not perfect in his ways and righteous.  But, he puts boundaries on Satan, because ultimately Satan has no power except what God allows.

Paul tells us that we are a living 'theater'--that the drama that is going on here on this planet is being watched by the host of heaven.  That we humans [the ekklesia] are revealing the plan of God to the heavenly host.  It's kind of shocking the way he puts it.  And, here you thought you were just trying to muddle through your life. :laughing7:


Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Cardinal]

And everyone is destined to become all in all in the end but not everyone is destined to understand certain things now. Even Jesus told his deciples that they were given to understand but to the rest it was not.

:cloud9: Exactly....yet if man had his way, in our day and age, they'd sue Him for "discrimination"...... :laughing7:

[CHB]

Cardinal you are so right.

Lefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob? Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think it means that all men are the same in HIS eyes, ie. flesh, but He is still at "liberty" to do with them according to His perfect will for the individual, AND His ultimate plan. Potter and the clay.....the ultimate plan for the corporate whole is "greater" than the plan for the individuals, but it's very hard for us to look at the big picture and not be offended in Him........not so hard for Him......

It's the difference in perceiving laying down our life for Him, and realizing that we are going to have to lay down our lives for the others. Pressing into Him that we might attain the high calling in Christ Jesus, FOR THE OTHERS, means that we walk in acceptance of WHATEVER He brings our way, knowing that ultimately it will bring the greater good into manifestation.....though He slay me, yet will I love Him.....this is drinking of His cup......my  :2c: Blessings.....

[legoman]

Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.

I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.

And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil.  And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.

It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.

This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate.  We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good.  And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.

If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible.  What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?

Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold.  Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.

It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite.  People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine.  People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;

"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them  :cloud9:  :HeartThrob: "

That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".

Should I blindly trust such a god?  Should I accept him as my father?  Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?

Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.

You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."

I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:

I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality.  So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it.  It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.

Consider who is in charge here:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity.  Vanity is sin.  God has bound everyone over to disobedience.  Disobedience is sin.

There is your answer Lefein.

Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level.  Yes rape is bad.  Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.

Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[legoman]

If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.

If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do.  Thank you in advance.

Here is an interesting (relatively short) article that may help:

The Purpose of Evil by Guy Marks
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/evil.htm

From the opening paragraph:
But evil is not a problem with God, though it has been a great problem with the theologians. God uses evil to accomplish His purpose. I remember when our daughter was born and what an evil thing the doctor did to that little baby, for no sooner was she born than the doctor gave her a resounding slap. Now she certainly did not deserve to be treated like that. What do you think of a full-grown man striking a tiny, new-born babe? If I had not known what the doctor's purpose was, I would have been ready to strike him. But you see, the evil was necessary at the very beginning of our daughter's life, and produced the results the doctor wanted. And so it is with God, for evil begins with Him and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose.
--

What seems to us like evil on pure physical level - is actually being worked for good on the spiritual evil.  Just like slapping a baby in itself would be considered evil - but when the purpose is known we see it is for good.

[legoman]

And I'm not trying to say we can do evil because its actually good - or anything like that.  Woe to those who call evil good...

But what God is doing is using evil as a tool for a much greater pure good.  A good example is Joseph and his 12 brothers.  God intended the evil that the brothers did to happen - so that much good would come from it.  God intended that Joseph's brothers try to kill him, and throw him into slavery instead - all so that Joseph could eventually later (much later) come back to save His brother's entire country.  I think the brothers would have learned invaluable lessons, no?

That is how God works.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.

You say that we can only learn a certain way.   

So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.

So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way.   The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.

Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things.   They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.

God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something.  However spiritually it is a supreme strength.

I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice.  I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.

And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone.   Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.

I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.

[willieH]

willlieH: Hi Legoman!   :cloud9:

Long time no see!  Hope you have been well!

Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.

I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.

And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil.  And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.

It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.

This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate.  We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good.  And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.

If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible.  What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?

Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold.  Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.

It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite.  People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine.  People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;

"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them  :cloud9:  :HeartThrob: "

That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".

Should I blindly trust such a god?  Should I accept him as my father?  Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?

Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.

You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."

I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:

I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality.  So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it.  It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.

Consider who is in charge here:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity.  Vanity is sin.  God has bound everyone over to disobedience.  Disobedience is sin.

There is your answer Lefein.

Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level.  Yes rape is bad.  Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.

Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

Just an excellent post brother L... excellent!  (7 thumbsup!)   :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: -- and ----->

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Amos 3:6  ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13  .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16  Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16  .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17  O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11  Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10  .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15  .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22  And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25  He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4  Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21  Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11  Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3  So says Jehovah of Hosts, ....  go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[legoman]

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.

You say that we can only learn a certain way.   

So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.

So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way.   The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.

Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things.   They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.

God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something.  However spiritually it is a supreme strength.

I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice.  I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.

And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone.   Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.

I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.

I think we are in agreement Phaze?

God is limited in the sense that He cannot do the illogical.  Certain things MUST BE a certain way.

He cannot make a square circle. 
He cannot make 2+2=5** (** some mathies like to joke that 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 - its funny but its nonsense).
And He cannot make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it.

These concepts in themselves are illogical - atheists like to use these questions to "prove" God cannot exist - but they are really trick questions based on something illogical.  Now to tie it in with the topic of the OP.

How can one learn what goodness is without also understanding what evil is?  How can one understand why LOVE is good, without also understanding what non-LOVE is?  It is a logical impossibility.

So in the same way that God cannot make a rock so big He cannot even lift it - He ALSO cannot teach what LOVE is without also giving us an experience of evil.

You worded it a bit better than me Phaze when you say God did not make a "choice" to create evil - as if implying there was another way to teach us what was required to be taught so we would have full knowledge of the truth and come to be in His image of LOVE.  There is simply no other way.  It MUST BE this way.

Our faith and hope is that God will redeem us from this bondage and bring us to this full knowledge of the truth.  And that is what the second part of those verses I posted earlier say:

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



We would not even know what hope is if there was nothing to hope for...

[thinktank]

I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice.  So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.

However, in playing along;

I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse.  You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured.  I'm one of God's worst sons.  My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect.  I am a chief amongst sinners.

Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts.  He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.

Same here.  Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?

CHB

What is Gods will right now for the world?

Is not to be saved?

Is it Gods will to steal thief and destroy?

Please take your time in answering that

[micah7:9]

Paul: I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness.

I want people to think, I want people to get it through their heads the full application of their god, I want people to be certain about who they are presenting to the world under the name Yahweh.

And most importantly, I want people to realise the full scope of a weird god, who not only invented (yes, invented, fathered, produced, by what ever word you choose caused every thing wrong with the world) evil.  And on top of all of this has assigned no means of autonomy to man - but has programmed his path blink, step, and falter.

It is this sort of god who ordains a man to kidnap a child, torture it, molest it, cut it in pieces, and stuff it into a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere; and sees that it is done according to His will - because the act of brutality was God's will, edict, ordinance, command, and pleasure where he has invented wickedness, and bereft man of autonomy.

This sort of god is nothing short of Hell incarnate.  We can forget love, we can forget trust, we can forget even believing he is holy, or good.  And worst of all we can forget Hope - because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and the world and all that is in it were made by his word; if evil is one of those things that God has made by his own creative power, then he has spoken it into being, and out of the abundance of his heart wickedness came, and so his heart is full of wickedness, and he is wicked.

If this is God, then we are doomed to never be free of wickedness, in fact we are doomed to be one with the very heart, and imagination of every sin riddled idea possible.  What good is it to be saved if we run from Satan into a Supreme Evil?

Evil is not a thing, anymore than cold is a thing, there exists only good, and heat; the less good, the more evil, the less heated, the more cold.  Evil and Cold are absences of Good and Heat.

It serves no good purpose for God to make wickedness, it makes him worse than Hell, and it makes him a divine hypocrite.  People can say "its for a good purpose", tell that to the people who have gone through crap that most of us here in the west will never be able to imagine.  People want their god to be so powerful that he causes everything wrong to happen in the universe, and then expects us to drop all caution and run bolting into his arms saying;

"Daddy Daddy I know you just put me through the worst thing I could have ever imagined, you raped me, molested me, beat me, tortured me, lied to me, broke my body, diseased me, and I'll never be able to have functioning relationships ever again, I'm ostracised, poor, and have a serious case of depression, anxiety, and stress disorders, all my friends left me, my only mate stole all of my stuff and ran out on me with another right in front of me, and it is all thanks to you - but I love you so much Daddy, I know you'll put me through even more horrid things, because you're Love, and Love hurts people because he loves them  :cloud9:  :HeartThrob: "

That is the god who made evil, wills for it to happen, sees it done, and then expects us to turn to him for more...out of "Love".

Should I blindly trust such a god?  Should I accept him as my father?  Or should I run from him, run as fast as I can from the divine brute that he is, hoping desperately that by some sheer miracle of fate beyond him that I can obtain autonomy enough to kill myself, and hope to never cross his path in the world after?

Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.

You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."

I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:

I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality.  So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it.  It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.

Consider who is in charge here:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity.  Vanity is sin.  God has bound everyone over to disobedience.  Disobedience is sin.

There is your answer Lefein.

Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level.  Yes rape is bad.  Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.

Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: