The Problem of Evil

[jabcat]

I agree.  We may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is and entails sometimes though - i.e., the scope of the definition.   Maybe Who God Is exists somewhere between the extremes of our ability to understand or express it.  IMO, that's a real good reason to keep going back to basics, sticking to the Word, then pray for and be open to Spirit-revelation within it.  :2c:

Blessings.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

P.S.  I'm not saying we can't have understanding or know Who God Is.  However, it's probably somewhat outside the scope of our carnal mind to fully understand or express it, and I believe sometimes we kick against Him by our own thoughts that are not His thoughts.  (I know I do).  It is a journey. 

[Molly]

We may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is ...

Yes, good point because it is not really 'good' we are talking about here, it's righteousness.  And, what looks 'good' to us might not always be what is righteous.


Isaiah 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

[micah7:9]

We may have some difficulty understanding the Big Picture and what Good really is ...

Yes, good point because it is not really 'good' we are talking about here, it's righteousness.  And, what looks 'good' to us might not always be what is righteous.


Isaiah 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Very well stated point. (notice how I so cleverly stayed away from using good? :laughing7:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  :bigGrin:

Yes, I said "maybe God exists somewhere between our extremes".  I thought though too, He probably exists in many way outside some of the extremes we could imagine too.  Just a thought.

[Cardinal]

What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life?  (Ernest Martin teaches on this.  Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought).  Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion.   :2c:

:cloud9: Wow....never heard of Ernest Martin, but I shared a dream/vision on here before about the same thing. Thank you for confirmation...... :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Simple question: Name one thing that's not created by God.

Lying, and lies.  If he created these things, then he is the Father of Lies.

Who created the creatures with the possibility to lie?

Did God create the possibility to die? Does that make God the God of death?

Not the God of death but a bored God, who plays toy soldiers with Himself.

But he creted creatures after himself who can create.

[CHB]

What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life?  (Ernest Martin teaches on this.  Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought).  Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion.   :2c:

:cloud9: Wow....never heard of Ernest Martin, but I shared a dream/vision on here before about the same thing. Thank you for confirmation...... :thumbsup:

Hi Cardinal,

Dr. Martin was the first one I heard talk about the salvation of all, he was Chairman of the Department of Theology at Ambassador College for the WWCG which I was a member also. When Dr. Martin left the WWCG in 1974, I believe, I left also and read mainly his articles until he died.  Dr. Martin left the WWCG because he came to see that all would be saved which the WWCG could not accept. Dr. Martin was always willing to change his mind when proven wrong which a lot of people cannot do. I am so thankful that God brought Dr. Martin into my life, otherwise I would still be in the WWCG under bondage. Now!! back on topic.  :bigGrin:

Here is one of his articles.  "Judgment on Man and God"  http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks CHB, will check it out  :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.

If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do.  Thank you in advance.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.

If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do.  Thank you in advance.

Your own heart is a good place to start.  you can get information overload and usually it is the people who think it is bad and unholy if you happen to believe something they do not like that can give the most trouble.   Ignore that and see the Good you know is there.

[WhiteWings]

What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life?  (Ernest Martin teaches on this.  Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought).  Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion.   :2c:

URL please  :banana:

I've read the exact same thing in several NDEs.

[WhiteWings]

Dr. Martin left the WWCG because he came to see that all would be saved which the WWCG could not accept.

I think that ws only one of the reasons. There was also disagreement over the crucifixion day. Pitty he died before I've started reading his stuff. I have some questions for him  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

If I am going to settle this issue with myself, I'd like some resources from both sides, an informed decision is a better one.

If anyone has well written resources they can link, or videos - please do.  Thank you in advance.

I think a little word study would be a good start.


Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil."
Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it
is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
I often receive emails from readers who assert that the word "evil" in this verse
should be translated "calamity." That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little
would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in
Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a "calamity" rather than an "evil?"
What would be gained by calling "evils" by the name "calamities"? That is
nonsense.
Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is the
Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for "calamity" is the Hebrew word ade which
means "misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means "bad or
evil." It is the same word used for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil
[ra]." It was not the tree of the knowledge of "good and calamity." Did Jacob
really mean to say, "a calamitous beast" had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)?
Did Israel really "do calamity in the sight of God" by worshipping Balaam, or did
they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means "bad or evil" and it is used over four hundred times to
represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil
against His creatures all day long



http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html   40% down the page.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTIsa 45
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

רעה  /  רע
ra‛  /  râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7489
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2191a, 2191c

ַרע
ra‛, ָרָעה
rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9; Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc 12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa 30:22; Est 7:6; Jer 2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen 6:5) from childhood (Gen 8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu 17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu 9:18; 1Ki 14:22). The day of the Lord's judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo 6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen 44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo 5:19; 2Ki 14:10).
The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen 47:9; Num 20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen 28:8]). The rabble's cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num 11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen 37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker's and the butler's faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen 40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro 25:20).
In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh's dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen 41:3, Gen 41:20, Gen 41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki 2:19; 2Ki 4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything.
Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa 23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo 32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun.
All verses (I hope) using the Hebrew word ra:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good.
Genesis 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
Genesis 31:29 It is in the power of my hand to do you hurt: but the God of your father spake unto me yesternight, saying, Take thou heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
Genesis 41:21 And when they had eaten them up, it could not be known that they had eaten them; but they were still ill favoured, as at the beginning. So I awoke.
Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Leviticus 27:10 He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy.
Leviticus 27:12 And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be.
Leviticus 27:14 And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD, then the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest shall estimate it, so shall it stand.
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
Numbers 11:10 Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
Numbers 22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
Deuteronomy 15:21 And if there be any blemish therein, as if it be lame, or blind, or have any ill blemish, thou shalt not sacrifice it unto the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
Deuteronomy 22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 23:9 When the host goeth forth against thine enemies, then keep thee from every wicked thing.
Deuteronomy 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Deuteronomy 28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
1 Samuel 17:28 And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.
1 Samuel 29:7 Wherefore now return, and go in peace, that thou displease not the lords of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 30:22 Then answered all the wicked men and men of Belial, of those that went with David, and said, Because they went not with us, we will not give them ought of the spoil that we have recovered, save to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away, and depart.
2 Samuel 13:3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.
1 Kings 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
1 Kings 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
1 Kings 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
2 Kings 4:41 But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.
1 Chronicles 2:3 The sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah: which three were born unto him of the daughter of Shua the Canaanitess. And Er, the firstborn of Judah, was evil in the sight of the LORD; and he slew him.
1 Chronicles 27:33 And Ahithophel was the king's counsellor: and Hushai the Archite was the king's companion:
2 Chronicles 33:9 So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel.
Nehemiah 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
Nehemiah 2:2 Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
Nehemiah 6:13 Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me.
Nehemiah 9:28 But after they had rest, they did evil again before thee: therefore leftest thou them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them: yet when they returned, and cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and many times didst thou deliver them according to thy mercies;
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 5:19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
Job 31:29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Psalm 7:4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:)
Psalm 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Psalm 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Psalm 36:4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.
Psalm 41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Psalm 49:5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?
Psalm 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
Psalm 64:5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psalm 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Psalm 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 101:4 A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.
Psalm 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Psalm 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
Psalm 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psalm 140:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
Psalm 140:11 Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him.
Psalm 141:4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.
Proverbs 2:12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
Proverbs 2:14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
Proverbs 5:14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.
Proverbs 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Proverbs 6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 11:15 He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure.
Proverbs 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Proverbs 12:13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble.
Proverbs 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.
Proverbs 12:21 There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.
Proverbs 14:22 Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.
Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.
Proverbs 17:11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
Proverbs 19:23 The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 20:8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
Proverbs 20:14 It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.
Proverbs 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.
Proverbs 21:10 The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.
Proverbs 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
Proverbs 25:20 As he that taketh away a garment in cold weather, and as vinegar upon nitre, so is he that singeth songs to an heavy heart.
Proverbs 26:23 Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross.
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Proverbs 28:10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.
Proverbs 28:22 He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.
Proverbs 29:6 In the transgression of an evil man there is a snare: but the righteous doth sing and rejoice.
Proverbs 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecclesiastes 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 4:8 There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail.
Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
Ecclesiastes 5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and there is nothing in his hand.
Ecclesiastes 6:2 A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.
Ecclesiastes 8:3 Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him.
Ecclesiastes 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Ecclesiastes 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isaiah 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

[WhiteWings]

Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 21:12 O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
Jeremiah 39:12 Take him, and look well to him, and do him no harm; but do unto him even as he shall say unto thee.
Jeremiah 40:4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.
Jeremiah 42:6 Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.
Jeremiah 44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Ezekiel 11:2 Then said he unto me, Son of man, these are the men that devise mischief, and give wicked counsel in this city:
Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
Hosea 7:15 Though I have bound and strengthened their arms, yet do they imagine mischief against me.
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Amos 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
Amos 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Micah 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
Micah 3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Habakkuk 2:9 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
Zephaniah 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Malachi 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

[WhiteWings]

^YLTDeut 32
35 Mine are vengeance and recompense, At the due time--doth their foot slide; For near is a day of their calamity, And haste do things prepared for them.
איד
'êyd
BDB Definition:
1) distress, burden, calamity
1a) burden (of the righteous)
1b) calamity (of nation)
1c) disaster (of wicked)
1d) day of calamity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from the same as H181 (in the sense of bending down)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 38c

ֵאיד
'ēyḏ: A masculine noun meaning calamity or disaster. The word refers to a time of trouble when a person is in special need of help (Pro 27:10); a calamity so severe that men and women should not rejoice or take selfish advantage of those whom the disaster renders helpless before God (Job 31:23; Pro 17:5; Oba 1:13). The calamity may result from a deliberate violation of principles (Pro 1:26) or a more explicit judgment of God (Jer 18:17). It may even befall a righteous person (2Sa 22:19; Psa 18:18
All verse using the Hebrew word for calamity:
(Deuteronomy 32:35 KJV)  To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
(2 Samuel 22:19 KJV)  They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
(Job 18:12 KJV)  His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
(Job 21:17 KJV)  How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
(Job 21:30 KJV)  That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
(Job 30:12 KJV)  Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.
(Job 31:3 KJV)  Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
(Job 31:23 KJV)  For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.
(Psalm 18:18 KJV)  They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
(Proverbs 1:26 KJV)  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
(Proverbs 1:27 KJV)  When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
(Proverbs 6:15 KJV)  Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
(Proverbs 17:5 KJV)  Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.
(Proverbs 24:22 KJV)  For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
(Proverbs 27:10 KJV)  Thine own friend, and thy father's friend, forsake not; neither go into thy brother's house in the day of thy calamity: for better is a neighbour that is near than a brother far off.
(Jeremiah 18:17 KJV)  I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
(Jeremiah 46:21 KJV)  Also her hired men are in the midst of her like fatted bullocks; for they also are turned back, and are fled away together: they did not stand, because the day of their calamity was come upon them, and the time of their visitation.
(Jeremiah 48:16 KJV)  The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast.
(Jeremiah 49:8 KJV)  Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.
(Jeremiah 49:32 KJV)  And their camels shall be a booty, and the multitude of their cattle a spoil: and I will scatter into all winds them that are in the utmost corners; and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, saith the LORD.
(Ezekiel 35:5 KJV)  Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:
(Obadiah 1:13 KJV)  Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

[livingwater]

Here are some thots, that might also go along with the thread re: soul.   

As a man thinketh, so IS he (present tense, BEing)


some thots from a friend of mine:

"I will venture to say then, that on a parabolic level I see Eve as that part of our mind which contains the womb or birthing place of thought....an idea that begins to conceptualized...this takes place in the conscious mind (as I understand it scientifically)

I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....

Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...

".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6

he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...

Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...

the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...

the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....

this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...

the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent

sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses

prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action

this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...

and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...

eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14


what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...

there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)

For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,

then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);

and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15

this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...

the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...

so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive

so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....

interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....

in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing ...

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

so, the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....

what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ....
"


Be transformed by the REnewing of your mind.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/i_make_peace_and_create_evil_not_any_more._6497.msg70038.html#msg70038

[jabcat]

What if we were aware, and even in agreement of what role each of us would play in this life?  (Ernest Martin teaches on this.  Not sure I fully agree, but it's at least an interesting thought).  Whether or no, God is only good and He will bring all to a perfect conclusion.   :2c:

URL please  :banana:

I've read the exact same thing in several NDEs.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm


(Lefein, the two links I gave earlier in the thread are from the TM homepage if you haven't yet looked at them.)

[jabcat]

Excerpts from "God's Use of Evil and Alottment", Ernest L. Martin (1995)

The Bible from beginning to end shows that God is Almighty. He is the Almighty God! This means the Godhead is in charge of all that happens in the universe and there is nothing that occurs within the heavenly or earthly realm that God is not supervising. He is in complete control of everything. His utter and thorough power is summed up well in First Chronicles 29:11. 'Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all." So powerful is God that Satan the Devil obeys every command that God gives him (Job 1:6-12;2:1-8). There is no controversy going on between God and Satan because there is no match and\or comparison between the two. Satan's power is merely a reflection of that which emanates from God and God could cut off the power and authority of Satan by a snap of the finger if he so wished. Also, the Bible shows that God governs the evil found in the universe and is ultimately responsible for it. Truly, God is Almighty.

James stated that God knows all things that he has planned from the beginning and that the details of that plan will be carried out precisely according to God's dictates (Acts 15:18). God projected that Christ would enter the world and die in place of mankind for their sins. He would be "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). Christ was prophesied to die at a particular time, in a certain spot, and by a select group of people, and it was all in the strategy devised by God from the beginning.

The crucifixion of Christ (God's own Son) was the greatest evil that had been planned within the foreknowledge of God the Father. And the exact detail of the crucifixion was prophesied beforehand and was an evil planned by God. Indeed, we are told in the Bible that God not only creates good that he dispenses to any in the universe as he pleases, but he also creates evil and uses it in the best way he knows in order to accomplish his purposes. God says: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Yes, God creates evil. See all of Isaiah 54:16 and Amos 3:6 for two of the many scriptures that show that God creates and uses EVIL in any way he wants.

--------------------------------
This principle of being chosen before the world's foundation in a divine lottery was well known to the apostles. Note that Peter said the elders who taught Christians in his day should not lord it over the Christians in their congregations (whom he called people chosen by "the lots" (I Peter 5:3). These were the ones chosen at the pre-creation time when the divine lottery was held to determine who would be given the knowledge of Christ during this age. See First Peter 5:3 where the King James translators render the Greek words "the lots," by our English words "God's heritage." The English translators simply did not understand the ancient lots system of choosing important people to perform roles in the presence of God.....


....Now some may say that this is completely unfair because how could God find fault with evil people for their ways since it was God who appointed them to do what they did. Indeed, this is the very question that Paul himself raised. He said: "Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he [God] yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" (Romans 9:19). Paul answered such a question by simply stating that the potter has power over the clay to make a pot good or to make one bad, and this means that God also has the power to do the same thing. In fact, Paul went on to state that God the Father had deliberately blinded the eyes of most Israelites who lived in his day from accepting Christ Jesus. He said God would continue to blind their eyes from accepting Christ until the full appointed number of the Gentiles come into their pre-ordained relationships with God. This does not mean, however, that God has abandoned Israel and the promises he made to them for salvation. Paul said:
'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so ALL Israel shall be SAVED' (Romans 11:25,26).
All Israelites (every single one of them – Jews and those of the other tribes) will one day be saved in Christ. They have been promised this salvation, and they will receive it without doubt. This is the plain teaching of the Bible.

"For as concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [on the part of God]. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:28-32).

Notice that it is God who has purposely blinded the eyes of most Israelites to prevent them from accepting Christ now. Some people (and nations of people) were elected by use of the divine lottery before the foundation of the world to accept the truth now, and others were elected by the same divine lottery to be negative in their acceptance of the truth.

This lottery was the fair way of letting all people and nations have an equal chance of being selected to do the will of God in regard to specific events pre-ordained in God's plan for the redemption of the human race to himself. When one surveys the Holy Scriptures regarding this principle of using a divine lottery to determine who was to do what and at what time in history, then we can see the fairness and equality of God in action among all the people he was going to create. The outcome of such a lottery means that the Japhetic race of people could have been the ones chosen by God to do what the Shemitic races have in fact done in this world, had the lottery fell in their favor instead of Shem. The Hamitic races also could have had the same blessing had the lottery fallen out to favor them. The simple truth is, the lot fell out to favor Shem and to specific children of Shem to have the fullness of the teaching of God given to them in this age (and through them to bring forth the Messiah who would arise to save the world from their sins). God chose the lottery as a means of being fair with all the people he was going to create and bring into his divine Family in the future.
This is why none of us who have the truth now should boast because the lot fell out to us before the foundation of the world......

[Paul Hazelwood]

We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read.    Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].


Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.

[thinktank]

Does evil, such as spanking a child, but did not create evil.

If God created evil, then he is evil or a part of him is and we should not trust him.


I have a new theory on the origin of evil and it was quite eye opening and makes sense of this mess we live in.

[jabcat]

We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read.    Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].


Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.

Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.

[CHB]

I just finished reading this article. It talks about all the calamities that happen in the world and who is at fault. About blaming God.

"Judgment on Man and God"  http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm

After reading this article I have come to the conclusion that one reason God has dealt with man by evil is to teach man forgiveness.
We will need to come to the point where we will FORGIVE GOD for all the things done in this world that we consider evil.

If we can forgive God for all the evils that have occurred to man since the beginning of time then we have truly become a son of God.
When you think about it, God has really poured it on us. We have had children killed, lost everything we had, most have experienced sickness, mental anguish. All of this and more have come from God. God forgives us, we learn to forgive God, a mutual forgiveness. We are becoming like God.

CHB