The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

I'll go through the list and give interpretations of what these are saying beneath the semantics - according to my understanding.

Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?

Calamity.

Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.

Sorrowful task.

Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.

Two possible ideas.

a. Hitler was a baby once too.
b. This one is more a doctor, than a devil. (it wasn't the devil who took back the life God gave from the first born of Egypt)  Or the destroyer whom God might rebuke (an agent who enforces the law of reaping and sowing via obedience)

Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.

God is an all consuming fire - someone who is holy will revel in its glory, someone who is wicked will feel the pain of being consumed; people recoil from pain, people turtle up, people harden themselves against impact.

Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....

A thing to consider; Job was chastised later by God for much of what he said.
Happiness, peace, and prosperity (good) is contrastable by Sorrow, pain, and trials (evil in the King James' sense, which has a dual meaning; that of "Woe")

Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....

Woeful, Sorrowful, Painful, "Trialeous" - but none of this implies wickedness, or sin, or iniquity.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Happiness, peace, prosperity - sorrow, pain, and trial; woe.

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Hitler was once an innocent baby.  As was Pharaoh.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?

See one of my earlier posts on single individuals being that lump, and not mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

CLV Ro 11:32 For *God locks up *all together into(in) stubbornness, that He should be |merciful to *all.

YLT Ro 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

AV Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Mostly an aesthetic difference, but different none the less.  Unbelief is different from outright disobedience.  Unbelief carries something along the idea of;

"I'll stop drinking when I see proof that it harms my liver"

Disobedience carries;

"I'll drink infront of your face!  Just because I want to and you don't want me to."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Pretty plain, to me...... :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

I don't see how it is even possible for God to create sin if it is not first a thing existent in his own heart.  That was/is the grief in my own heart over the whole issue.

It would be a denial of the counsel of the scriptures to say that God can create something that doesn't come out of his own heart - or say something that is not out of his heart.

No one, not even God of whom we are in his image - makes anything or expresses anything that does not come from the "inner" self, or heart.  And to curtail ahead of time the response that might surely be on its way..."God can do anything!  God can do the impossible!  God can make something that doesn't even have anything to do with his inner being!"

"God isn't the god of ludicrous behaviour, and ludicrous inability to relate to - that includes our creative processes"  If he were not, we would have very little in common at all with the deity of whom we are supposed to be likening, being after his image made.

So, since evil (sin) did not come from God, who is Holy, and cannot come out of God who is Holy - it must be woe, or calamity.  We cannot legitimately call God the author of sin, without making him the very Devil himself.  To make God the author of sin, is to make Christianity into Satanism.

Now, for Jabcat's questions;

Who did?

No one created it ex'nihilo - sin isn't a "thing" it is a principle to describe distance from perfection.  Missing the mark, is to be distant from it.  Sin isn't a mark in itself, there is only one mark, and only one hitting it, all else is missing it.

Sin is the empty nothingness around the target, it was not "created", it is simply a part of truth in the same way that when God created heat, he did not create "cold" cold simply became a matter of "distance" from heat, or the lessening of it.

That is why if you break even one of the laws of God, you've broken it all, because in matters of Holiness - "close" only exists in grenades and horseshoes.  If you've missed the mark, your dart sails past into the nothingness that is emptiness - sin.

And if someone else did;
a) where's the clear Biblical proof
b) what does that still say about God's role in it?   
For instance, if He "only" created a being who would then create it, and at the same time create mankind who would choose to do those things and/or be affected, even killed by them

These I don't think are relevant providing that sin isn't a creation at all - but a "by-principle" that comes with Holiness.  When you set up a mark, or a target, the principle of missing that target comes with it.

a) did He not know what was going to happen
b) was powerless to do anything about it
c) satan's in control of it for now and God's waiting to fix it,
d) God wasn't surprised, intended it for a bigger purpose and knew the results, how He would use it, and guarantee the outcome?

a) He knew.  Hence the slain lamb before the foundation of the world.
b) Slain lamb
c) Not "waiting" but actively working through the process.  He's destroying the devil's work even as we speak, and was doing so even in times past.  He's doing surgery on the earth even as the disease spreads - he could certainly stop the disease immediately, but he'd have to kill the patient, but time through time, and miracle by miracle - he is preparing the way to completely cure the patient when it has become stable enough to continue into the next phase of treatment.

Christ is after all...the Great Physician, and his purpose is to destroy the works of the devil; Hence, it makes sense he works like a doctor to do so.

[Paul Hazelwood]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.

Set this one aside for the moment;  Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?

Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.

Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.

Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.

Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....

Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Those are some great verses, but as with any subject we can find it convenient to expect the literal reading to be truth on one hand while expecting a spiritual metaphor to attach to others.

Such as this one.

Hb 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

[jabcat]

Excerpts from Thomas Kissinger, from The Noble Berean;  http://abidinghopefellowship.org/teachings/nobleberean.pdf

(Some terminology left out to keep within the forum guidelines).


The act of Adam's disobedience in his partaking of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil (his carnal mind) was just a result of being lowered
(his subjection to failure and unreality) into the soulish realm by God.
Many will ask the question...How can you say these things about God?
The answer is simple. This is what the Bible actually teaches about the
fall of man. I am simply repeating what the Bible states. Others would
ask...Why would God do this to the human race?

Well...Let us go back to Romans 8:19-22. It tells us that God did this
in hope, knowing beforehand that all those who were subjected to this
vanity would be delivered from their bondage by the ministry and
manifestation of the sons of God. In essence, God had predetermined
to subject all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all through
the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 11:32). The cross of the
Lord Jesus Christ was not an afterthought of God, but it was the very
foundation and focal point of His entire purpose of the ages. Revelation
13:8 as well as 1st Peter 1:20 tell us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world! This tells us that everything was built
on the slain Lamb (Jesus Christ). God wanted the world to see Him as
their Savior. The only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior. So...God did just that, for we know that
all have sinned (missed the mark of God's nature) and come short of
the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

This can also be seen by applying the
story of Job to the human race. Job was minding his own business when
God asked Satan...Have you considered My servant Job? The rest of the
story shows us that it was God Who subjected Job to everything that he
went through. It tells us in Job 42:11 that it was the Lord Who was the
One Who brought evil upon Job. AMAZING! Have you ever thought
about that? Why did the Lord do this to Job? Our answer is to be found
in Job 42:5 and 42:12. These verses tell us that Job had only heard of the
Lord, but was now (because of everything that he went through) able to
see (understand) the Lord. As well, verse 12 tells us that Job's latter end
was more blessed than his beginning. And so shall it be with the human
race. We shall all be able to see (understand) the Lord and our latter
end shall be more blessed than our beginning as a result of having been
subjected to the vanity that God has placed us in. What an AMAZING
GOD that we serve!

[Paul Hazelwood]

From the excerpt.

The only way to accomplish this was to put man into the
condition of needing a Savior.

Does Thomas Kissinger in his writings talk about God being limited in some manner?     

[jabcat]

I really don't think so, but I'm not positive.  I've read different things of his, and by far mostly understand things the same as he, but that's not to say I know all about his writings.

Here's an interesting article if anyone cares to look at it.  IMO, it has at least some similarities to what you and Lefein have been saying, albeit s/w different perhaps in some areas.  I do appreciate his "struggle"/uncertainty about some of it.   :2c:


http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html

[Paul Hazelwood]

I really don't think so, but I'm not positive.  I've read different things of his, and by far mostly understand things the same as he, but that's not to say I know all about his writings.

Here's an interesting article if anyone cares to look at it.  IMO, it has at least some similarities to what you and Lefein have been saying, albeit s/w different perhaps in some areas.  I do appreciate his "struggle"/uncertainty about some of it.   :2c:


http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html

Just asking, it is one thing to be realistic no matter the "cause" and understand that humans learn a certain way and cannot understand good with out knowing the contrasts and all that.  It is another to suggest that God being unlimited, was then left with only one option.  ;)   Of course, that is the hard part, to see that when our mind admits to what we see as a limitation of God it is a testamony to his purity of righteousness.   Not saying I see "better" just believe i must be honest about what I do see and not pretend to be at any place I am not actually at.   :icon_jokercolor:

[Paul Hazelwood]

http://godspurposes.org/Sin%20Web/sin4.html

I'll take a look at the link when i get a chance, bed time for me.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

The word is sharper than a two-edged, literally, a "two-mouthed" sWORD (and it cuts both ways!)

[WhiteWings]

I'll go through the list and give interpretations of what these are saying beneath the semantics - according to my understanding.

Most verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.

Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.

This verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....

A thing to consider; Job was chastised later by God for much of what he said.
Happiness, peace, and prosperity (good) is contrastable by Sorrow, pain, and trials (evil in the King James' sense, which has a dual meaning; that of "Woe")

Perhaps Job wasn't the most smartest man of history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Hitler was once an innocent baby.  As was Pharaoh.

So pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?

See one of my earlier posts on single individuals being that lump, and not mutually exclusive.

Same lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

CLV Ro 11:32 For *God locks up *all together into(in) stubbornness, that He should be |merciful to *all.

YLT Ro 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

AV Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Mostly an aesthetic difference, but different none the less.  Unbelief is different from outright disobedience.  Unbelief carries something along the idea of;

"I'll stop drinking when I see proof that it harms my liver"

Disobedience carries;

"I'll drink infront of your face!  Just because I want to and you don't want me to."

The second word of all those translations is the key (in this discussion)
God actively/willingly/purposefully did that to 'all'.

And again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.

[jabcat]

Quote WW;   Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us [sin]. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

This is a very interesting statement Tony.  I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above.   Because certainly, a part of me wants to say "of course God didn't create sin.  It must be just calamity ".  But then what you say above gives pause for more thought...



In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity.  It's hard to understand, for sure.  God give us wisdom.

[WhiteWings]

I don't see how it is even possible for God to create sin if it is not first a thing existent in his own heart.  That was/is the grief in my own heart over the whole issue.

With God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.

So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.

It would be a denial of the counsel of the scriptures to say that God can create something that doesn't come out of his own heart - or say something that is not out of his heart.

The 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.

No one, not even God of whom we are in his image

Image=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.

"God isn't the god of ludicrous behaviour, and ludicrous inability to relate to - that includes our creative processes"  If he were not, we would have very little in common at all with the deity of whom we are supposed to be likening, being after his image made.

Most of creation is deep into sin.
a] There is more that one creator. God created a handful of good things and satan the rest.
b] God created everything good. At least that was His intention. History proves His toys all have design flaws and malfunction.
c] Perhaps each and every atom behaves according to design.

I opt for c.

So, since evil (sin) did not come from God, who is Holy, and cannot come out of God who is Holy - it must be woe, or calamity.  We cannot legitimately call God the author of sin, without making him the very Devil himself.  To make God the author of sin, is to make Christianity into Satanism.

Hitler got Fathers breath of life.....

Sin is the empty nothingness around the target, it was not "created", it is simply a part of truth in the same way that when God created heat, he did not create "cold" cold simply became a matter of "distance" from heat, or the lessening of it.

But He did create the distance.
He choose to use a limited amount of heat in His creation.

These I don't think are relevant providing that sin isn't a creation at all - but a "by-principle" that comes with Holiness.  When you set up a mark, or a target, the principle of missing that target comes with it.

A by product is still part of creation.

a) did He not know what was going to happen
b) was powerless to do anything about it
c) satan's in control of it for now and God's waiting to fix it,
d) God wasn't surprised, intended it for a bigger purpose and knew the results, how He would use it, and guarantee the outcome?

a) He knew.  Hence the slain lamb before the foundation of the world.
b) Slain lamb
c) Not "waiting" but actively working through the process.  He's destroying the devil's work even as we speak, and was doing so even in times past. 

a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.

Christ is after all...the Great Physician, and his purpose is to destroy the works of the devil; Hence, it makes sense he works like a doctor to do so.

It makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.

[WhiteWings]

Quote WW;   Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

This is a very interesting statement Tony.  I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above. 


In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity.  I DON'T KNOW for sure, different people say different things about it.  But IF that's true, it may fit your statement above.  It's hard to understand, for sure.

I think I agree with Craig. But even if it just mean calamity it shows Father (also) has active control over the bad things in life. So all the bad doesn't come from satan only.

[jabcat]

Also, to say God's just sort of hacking away at it a little at a time, trying to cut down evil - and He'll eventually get it done - something about that just doesn't seem right to me.  I see God as being more in control than that, that He hasn't lost control over anything - that whatever He does is according to plan.  And that even though we may not "get it", it's still a perfect plan when seen through His eyes with the view of eternity.   :2c:

[Lefein]

Most verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.

Evil is however, a word that has changed over time.

Take for example the word "Compass" it used to mean "woo" as well as "surround".  Now it is a tool for magnetic direction.

This verse clearly states God makes us is. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

I'd interpret it differently.

The presence of Yahweh in his holiness, and his being as an all consuming fire will either make a man joyful, make him repent, or make a man recoil into himself even further out of pride.

You can look a the typical child to see this sort of example in the land of the living.

A parent chastises him in his presence, and a child might get obstinate and get even worse.  The parent's presence had that effect, however the parent did not twist the boy's arm to make him do it - the boy did it on his own accord.

That is the central truth of the passage, the Spirit beneath the Letter.

Perhaps Job wasn't the most smartest man of history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.

Indeed, because God knew his own intentions in the scheme he'd probably (likely) long planned for ahead of time, before the Devil even had the bright idea of it - An intent that probably sounded in the mind of God a bit like; "I'll make him twice the better than the Devil would have him fall."

So pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?

No.  Should we blame DaVinci if a large bucket of stain remover spills on it in the Lurve (however it is spelt, silly french lol) and messes up the painting?

To be able to be marred, or corrupted is not a design flaw.

But for God to have made something purposefully corrupted, is a flaw in God himself.

Same lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.

Did God invent/express-into-being the act, and idea of sinning, and its methods?  If so - these proceeded from the abundance of his heart.

Knowing this (if this is the truth that God created sin), the Bible is contradictory to the nature of God's character if that is the truth in what it says; that God invented iniquity.

However, I believe the interpretation must be wrong, because the Bible says that God is Holy, and Love, and so that must be abundantly in his heart, and righteousness, perfect righteousness in a just heart can have no stain, nor imagination stained.

Remember that God did not command, nor did it ever enter into his mind that the children of Israel should sacrifice their babies to Molech.

This means that God does not twist a man's arm to sin, and neither did he invent it - because something came across in his creation that he did not express into being to be done, though he knew of it, it did not enter his mind; which is to say;

"I had nothing to do with your stupidity in doing this!"

CLV Jer 32:35

And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

The second word of all those translations is the key (in this discussion)
God actively/willingly/purposefully did that to 'all'.

And again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.

If God does it, then it has entered his heart to do so - and he is not Holy.

God must be Holy, and for God to be Holy - there can be no iniquity found in him, or expressed by him in any manifestation.

This is why Applied Calvinism carries the same flaw as Calvinism carries with Hell.  Because Hell, thinking now from a church point of view - is separation from God first and foremost.  The Bible says that sin is the cause of separation from God.

CLV Isa 59:2

But rather your depravities become a separation between you and your Elohim. And your sins conceal His face from you, from hearing you.

So, here we have it this way;

Sin = Separation from God

Hell = Separation from God

Sin = Hell

(And indeed any man knows that when he is neck deep in sin, he is "in his own Hell" and he knows that it certainly "hurts like Hell")

So for God to in a Calvinistic means; "Send some to bliss, and the rest to Hell" we call this evil.

It is the same thing when it comes to God causing the many to sin, because by that causing of man to sin - he is sending them into separation from God, which can indeed be called Hell.  Or if you want to have a more Universalist approach; The sting of Death is sin, and sin causes Death - so for God to cause a man to sin, is to separate him from Life which is Him, separating the man from God - and so the man is sent into Death, Sheol.

With God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.

So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.

But God cannot lie, nor sin, nor create it.  Unless it is in his heart.

Death is distance, absence from life - not a thing.  The idea of Death depends on Life, in the same way that even nothingness would not exist, without somethingness.

Holes aren't things just because we have terms to describe them.  None of us can pick up a hole, and none of us can carry a handful of Death.

The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.

The same with Light, if I turn off the lights in my room I am not suddenly hit with dark-waves, or dark-particles.  Darkness has no substance, neither does hate, neither does death, neither does cold, neither does a lie.

Create is a funny idea in itself, and words are limited in their capacity to express the fullness of truth - Groanings which cannot be uttered.

Light when turned on, is said to create, or cast shadows.  However, shadows are merely areas where light is lacking.

The 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.

If the interpretation is that "God does evil/iniquity" then God is no better than us, Satan, or worse.  And unfortunately for Christianity - and the universe, and even universalism - makes him unfit to worship, because he has lied when he said he is perfect and Holy.

There must be a different interpretation, because God cannot express any form of imperfection, imperfection of the sort that is 'sin' - of which is missing the mark, missing the mark is imperfection.

Image=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.

Why should we be anything less than the image of our Father, and likeness?  Why should we be a shadow?

Darkness is not linked to sin, it is linked to disorder, chaos, and woe.  Sin in all of its nothingness just so happens to breed in this environment which is better suited to driving a man home to warmth and safety where the lamp is always lit.

Some people love the dark, because they think they can hide their own emptiness, and nakedness there, rather than in the light where order is absolute.

The counsel of the scriptures must be consistent, and so it is that if the mouth speaks the abundance of the heart - then for God to express iniquity is to make him imperfect.

There must be a different interpretation, or else God is not God, and we have been fooled.

Most of creation is deep into sin.
a] There is more that one creator. God created a handful of good things and satan the rest.
b] God created everything good. At least that was His intention. History proves His toys all have design flaws and malfunction.
c] Perhaps each and every atom behaves according to design.

You forgot a whole myriad of other options, for you say that God can do the impossible, it is possible then that God created everything good, and intends to make it glorious.  It is possible then for God to do this without having to settle for your three options.  It is possible then, for God to do it in the way of option D);

D) God created everything Good, and intends to make it Glorious - he will do this by shaking out, burning out the possibilities for imperfection, or "immunise" existence, sin is one of these possible imperfections that arose, and which he predicted, and by various processes like the sacrifice of his very own begotten son, the expression of himself, and himself incarnate - is destroying the works of the devil, and making everything beautiful in His due time.

God is not mocked, and so neither will he mock.  God will shake Heaven and Earth so that everything that is not incorruptible will be cast into non-existence even as an idea or a thought, because his creation will have gone through the sickness - and become immune to any future infections of it.

Yes, it is according to God's design...But not by God being dirty or defecting from his character as Holy, righteous, and perfect.

It is possible indeed for God to do D), and I personally believe that is the more truthful of the options.

Hitler got Fathers breath of life.....

So did you, and I - we are not any less sinless than Hitler.  But it was not God who made Hitler sinful, he did that on his own accord.

Unless God plays soldiers, or is a divine ventriloquist...but that discussion is probably not allowed, so I will not press it further than a mention.

Really it boils down to this;

Do we worship a God who out of the abundance of his heart made evil, and causes everything wrong in the world to happen, just because he is, must be shown to be absolutely sovereign?

Or.

Do we worship a God who out of the abundance of his heart made good, and so by his sovereignty, and sovereign power will shake out every wrong possibility, and immunise it from future infections as diseases may arise via his glorifying purposes - Glorification, and Perfection, not merely "good" being his intent in the first place, and doing all of this, all the while remaining holy?

A by product is still part of creation.

A by-principle is not a by-product.

For all intents and purposes, Sin is nothing more than vapour ware, a product that doesn't exist, will never exist, and yet a product that people continue to pre-order and buy, hoping it will fulfill their needs, and wants - finding it fails utterly short in doing so, because a "nothing" cannot satisfy a hunger for "something".

a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.

Your false premise is that if God created a creation that could fall, it was flawed.  His intent was not a good creation, but a perfect creation which has yet to come.

Adam was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or else he would have been under Grace and not cast out of God's presence, so that right there shows us that God did not create Creation as perfect.

Creation was made an infant, a beautiful and innocent infant.  But infants can get diseases, and sicknesses, and must build up an immunity if that infant is to be a healthy adult.

God intends to immunise the good infant, to be a healthy, perfect adult who is immune to the possibility of sin ever coming back into creation.

When God has perfected all - then Death and Hades, the places of containment, and the principle of distance from God who is Life - absence of Life, shall be consumed by God who is an all consuming fire.

The disease itself, the cancer, and the empty belly of the spirit that lacks in the living bread - shall be burned, and filled; and hence removed from possibility.

It makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.

Sure, if he must force his children to live in self-containing bubbles, prisons.

God wants freedom in his creation, not imprisonment to what might possibly arise.  God is a father who wants the best for his children, and the best here is not merely "good and innocent" the best is Glorious and Perfect, which requires that they must be incorruptible as God is, and so they must be immune to corruption, the only way for that to be so...is that they be immunised, and for God to shake out, or burn away even the very possibility of being infected, to build them up above all corruptability.  This cannot happen if God is content to merely prevent, to give men less than his best offer, to bubble them in sterile conditions.

[WhiteWings]

Most verses use the word ra that very often is translated as evil.
Another thing is that your translations/interpretations don't get God of the hook.
God was actively involved in the 'bad things' that happend to those people.

Evil is however, a word that has changed over time.

Take for example the word "Compass" it used to mean "woo" as well as "surround".  Now it is a tool for magnetic direction.

Ok, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.

This verse clearly states God makes us sin. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

I'd interpret it differently.

The presence of Yahweh in his holiness, and his being as an all consuming fire will either make a man joyful, make him repent, or make a man recoil into himself even further out of pride.

You can look a the typical child to see this sort of example in the land of the living.

A parent chastises him in his presence, and a child might get obstinate and get even worse.  The parent's presence had that effect, however the parent did not twist the boy's arm to make him do it - the boy did it on his own accord.

That is the central truth of the passage, the Spirit beneath the Letter.

So the people speaking that verse are making false claims.
You should be we.

Perhaps Job wasn't the smartest man in history. So God pointed out his mistakes.
But God also said Job was upright and pleased God in all his ways.

Indeed, because God knew his own intentions in the scheme he'd probably (likely) long planned for ahead of time, before the Devil even had the bright idea of it - An intent that probably sounded in the mind of God a bit like; "I'll make him twice the better than the Devil would have him fall."

So because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)

So pure things can turn into evil. Design flaw?

No.  Should we blame DaVinci if a large bucket of stain remover spills on it in the Lurve (however it is spelt, silly french lol) and messes up the painting?

To be able to be marred, or corrupted is not a design flaw.

So God created stain remover = satan.

But for God to have made something purposefully corrupted, is a flaw in God himself.

No. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.

Same lump indeed but as the verse says the potter uses His authority to decide what kind of vessel He makes. A bowl, plate or vase all come from the same lump. But still the potter gave each it's own different function.

Did God invent/express-into-being the act, and idea of sinning, and its methods?  If so - these proceeded from the abundance of his heart.

Knowing this (if this is the truth that God created sin), the Bible is contradictory to the nature of God's character if that is the truth in what it says; that God invented iniquity.

However, I believe the interpretation must be wrong, because the Bible says that God is Holy, and Love, and so that must be abundantly in his heart, and righteousness, perfect righteousness in a just heart can have no stain, nor imagination stained.

The Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
You potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.

Remember that God did not command, nor did it ever enter into his mind that the children of Israel should sacrifice their babies to Molech.

He didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?

This means that God does not twist a man's arm to sin, and neither did he invent it - because something came across in his creation that he did not express into being to be done, though he knew of it, it did not enter his mind; which is to say;

Tell that to the judge that sentence me for jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.

And again we see clearly God makes us sin. Disobedience to God = sin.
God does it. It for example doesn't say satan does the locking up.

If God does it, then it has entered his heart to do so - and he is not Holy.

Are you setting the guidelines for God?
Lots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom

God must be Holy, and for God to be Holy - there can be no iniquity found in him, or expressed by him in any manifestation.

What is holy? Not breaking rules of God? What if those rules are mostly for us? All 10 commandments are for us to follow. Not for Him.

This is why Applied Calvinism carries the same flaw as Calvinism carries with Hell.  Because Hell, thinking now from a church point of view - is separation from God first and foremost.  The Bible says that sin is the cause of separation from God.

Then perhaps it isn't just by chance that religion means reconnect.

CLV Isa 59:2

But rather your depravities become a separation between you and your Elohim. And your sins conceal His face from you, from hearing you.

So, here we have it this way;

Sin = Separation from God

Hell = Separation from God

Sin = Hell

The question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercey on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.

(And indeed any man knows that when he is neck deep in sin, he is "in his own Hell" and he knows that it certainly "hurts like Hell")

So for God to in a Calvinistic means; "Send some to bliss, and the rest to Hell" we call this evil.

It is the same thing when it comes to God causing the many to sin, because by that causing of man to sin - he is sending them into separation from God, which can indeed be called Hell.  Or if you want to have a more Universalist approach; The sting of Death is sin, and sin causes Death - so for God to cause a man to sin, is to separate him from Life which is Him, separating the man from God - and so the man is sent into Death, Sheol.

Maybe we are living in hell/LoF right now....  :mblush:

With God everything is possible.
God always lived so death is not within Him but death does exist.
God doesn't hate but there is a lot of hate.
God is light but there is darkness.

So God did create things that are not part of Him.
Create and form are different things.

But God cannot lie, nor sin, nor create it.  Unless it is in his heart.

imo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.

God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.

Death is distance, absence from life - not a thing.  The idea of Death depends on Life, in the same way that even nothingness would not exist, without somethingness.

Again you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.

Holes aren't things just because we have terms to describe them.  None of us can pick up a hole, and none of us can carry a handful of Death.

And no one can force God out of him/herself.

The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.

Create is a funny idea in itself, and words are limited in their capacity to express the fullness of truth - Groanings which cannot be uttered.

Light when turned on, is said to create, or cast shadows.  However, shadows are merely areas where light is lacking.

The 'God does evil' verses are Scripture too.

If the interpretation is that "God does evil/iniquity" then God is no better than us, Satan, or worse.  And unfortunately for Christianity - and the universe, and even universalism - makes him unfit to worship, because he has lied when he said he is perfect and Holy.

What's perfect? You might have another idea of perfection as Father.
In your eyes His ways are not perfect. Earth is a mess.
By perfect design?
Or overruled/outsmarted by mankind.

There must be a different interpretation, because God cannot express any form of imperfection, imperfection of the sort that is 'sin' - of which is missing the mark, missing the mark is imperfection.

Unless ofcourse Adam and Eve eating from the tree was part of that perfection/perfect plan.

Image=shadow. Maybe that's a small hint?
Or even earlier in Genesis. I create darkness and I form light in Hebrew also means. .... day one
I create chaos and form order.
Darkness is linked to sin. Light to holy.
Even in the opening verses of Genesis things start with chaos and end with order.
In New Jerusalem the gates are always open because it always light.
Meaning not dark but light. No sin. No chaos.
For me that is counsel of the scriptures.

Why should we be anything less than the image of our Father, and likeness?  Why should we be a shadow?

Ask Him....
When I look around I see lot's of shadows and dim lights.

The counsel of the scriptures must be consistent, and so it is that if the mouth speaks the abundance of the heart - then for God to express iniquity is to make him imperfect.

In that case He's imperfect.

There must be a different interpretation, or else God is not God, and we have been fooled.

Misunderstood is teh word I think.

D) God created everything Good, and intends to make it Glorious - he will do this by shaking out, burning out the possibilities for imperfection, or "immunise" existence, sin is one of these possible imperfections that arose, and which he predicted, and by various processes like the sacrifice of his very own begotten son, the expression of himself, and himself incarnate - is destroying the works of the devil, and making everything beautiful in His due time.

So God created imperfection. Otherwise He can't burn it out.

It is possible indeed for God to do D), and I personally believe that is the more truthful of the options.

I think that option is gift wrapped in a veil :-)

Hitler got Fathers breath of life.....

a] He knew but still carried on with that sinful design. .... and He saw it was GOOD
b] Patchwork?
c] So God created an ill creation.

Your false premise is that if God created a creation that could fall,

It's your premise that's false Lefein.
It could not fall. I was designed to fall.

it was flawed.  His intent was not a good creation, but a perfect creation which has yet to come.

I agree with that.
So Father willfully created something that falls short of His glory. For a reason.
So imperfection is part of the perfect plan.
God hold back the light. (main cause of sin)

Adam was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or else he would have been under Grace and not cast out of God's presence, so that right there shows us that God did not create Creation as perfect.

True. It also shows God actively choose Adam to fall. He choose to NOT indwell Adam.
Adam feel=sinned by design.

Creation was made an infant, a beautiful and innocent infant.  But infants can get diseases, and sicknesses, and must build up an immunity if that infant is to be a healthy adult.

Sickness is a sign of crappy design.

God intends to immunise the good infant, to be a healthy, perfect adult who is immune to the possibility of sin ever coming back into creation.

He intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty induvidual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.

When God has perfected all - then Death and Hades, the places of containment, and the principle of distance from God who is Life - absence of Life, shall be consumed by God who is an all consuming fire.

Agreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of  aperfect plan.

It makes even more sense if the doctor prevents it.

Sure, if he must force his children to live in self-containing bubbles, prisons.

Really? I don't live in a bubble. I'm blessed with an iron immume system. I for example never had the flu in my whole life.
Illness is a crappy design of the immume system.

God wants freedom in his creation, not imprisonment to what might possibly arise.

Then why he locks up all in disobedience?

God is a father who wants the best for his children, and the best here is not merely "good and innocent" the best is Glorious and Perfect, which requires that they must be incorruptible as God is, and so they must be immune to corruption, the only way for that to be so...is that they be immunised, and for God to shake out, or burn away even the very possibility of being infected, to build them up above all corruptability.  This cannot happen if God is content to merely prevent, to give men less than his best offer, to bubble them in sterile conditions.

And for that reason He created an enviorment filled with sin.


BTW I'm making progress. I'm called a Calvinist now. Who had thought that 2 years ago  :Whistle:

[eaglesway]

Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He never tempts any man:

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Whatever our paradigm, it must evolve to include all of the scriptures, without contradiction. Short of that, we see through a glass darkly, our understanding is deficient, and the exploration continues. Otherwise we have simply settled in a place that feels good to us for personal reasons that have nothing to do with pressing into Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.

"If you continue in My word you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

[thinktank]

@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

There were once 2 men. One of these men called John loved the lord and praised him. Another certain man called Peter also loved the lord and was part of tentville congregation.

One day John decided to join tentville, he regularly questioned their ideas.
The other members did not like this, they frowned upon him and his crazy ways and this sadened John.

Tentville:Thank the lord we are not like this man, this repobrate who doesn't even have faith as we do that all be saved, we are far wiser and nobler than this, unbeliver, who dares to question us.
John retained his composure, and opened not his mouth, but was sadened by their cold hearts.

God heard the cry of his heart
I will send my angel messanger.

So God sent Lefeiniel to deliver his message.

"Why are you casting this your brother from this congregation for claiming that God is good"

But as soon as he delivered this message the members of tentville began to lift up stones, if you or anyone speak evil of us or speak against us in future they shall be stoned without mercy, and they will not longer be permitted to enter the assembly.


The angel returned to God with the bad news

God was wroth, "If they reject my angel, then I shall send my only son, surely they will listen to him.

So GOD sent his son to tentville.

"The devil is a thief, liar and destroyer, but I came to give life and more abundantly"

The members of tentville reasoned within themselves, who are ye and whence comes thou, we know that God sent Moses, but as for this fellow we know not where he comes from, how could this man have created the devil. So they reasoned.

The son returned home.

GOD said "what happened"

They rejected my message, in favour of their tradditions.

GOD was wroth " If they do not listen to my loving son, then I shall send a sword of fire, that shall pierece their hard hearts.

After a while the 2 men died and went to heaven.

"why is John here, Peter man said, he said evil things about you lord, he said you were all good and had no evil, so I rebuked him and cast him out of the assembly". :sohappy:

As he looked on Gods puzzled face :gimpossible:, understanding and wisdom came to him and he fell on his face and wept for the evil he had done.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Quote WW;   Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.
This verse clearly states God makes us [sin]. Wandering from His ways is breaking His commands is sin.

This is a very interesting statement Tony.  I've been struggling with this topic throughout the evening tonight, and I hadn't thought of what you say above.   Because certainly, a part of me wants to say "of course God didn't create sin.  It must be just calamity ".  But then what you say above gives pause for more thought...

In an old discussion on TM from a couple of years ago, I think I remember Craig aka Student of the Word insisting 'ra' actually means sin, not just calamity.  It's hard to understand, for sure.  God give us wisdom.

The proposed clarity of the bible is an illusion.   I have gone through trials that showed me why I will never do some things ever again if I actually have one speck of ability to decide not to.   What I reject is that one, God made me do them in the first place, and two,  under this idea of being made to sin I have absolutely no assurance that God won't then make me do it again.

Some have seemed to get upset that I dare suggest that about them, but it just goes to show that few people if any,  now I realize that there are none, that actually believe God will one day in the future make them do a very horrible thing something horrible and unimaginable that they only read about "others" doing it.   Oh it is easy to think God made someone else do something, yes.

They say they are "follower of Christ" so how dare I suggest such a thing.   Yet, if true, as written,  there is a verse that suggests exactly that.

Why don't I agree that these literal reading of the verses means what people think it means?

Simply because there is no glory or good news in it and it is of poor character and it is not good,  so it is not of God. 

[micah7:9]

Also, to say God's just sort of hacking away at it a little at a time, trying to cut down evil - and He'll eventually get it done - something about that just doesn't seem right to me.  I see God as being more in control than that, that He hasn't lost control over anything - that whatever He does is according to plan.  And that even though we may not "get it", it's still a perfect plan when seen through His eyes with the view of eternity.   :2c:

I cant agree with that. :thumbsup:

For me, I believe the Bible as the written Word of God. The Words that are written is The Word, God said He created evil (translate that anyway you desire to fit your thinking) the Truth that He said it, means He takes FULL responsibility for the outcome, that He will work out ALL for Good. I am going to leave it to Him to work it out.
Heb 11:1  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Heb 11:2  for in this were the elders testified of;
Heb 11:3  by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

[Paul Hazelwood]

We also have to make the contrast in scripture when a verse may be actually someone not wanting to take accountability for their actions.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, [and] hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants'sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

The context of this verse is surrounding a tribe that rebelled.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.

Maybe they also found it easier to blame God.   Sure wasn't their fault.   :laugh:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: In the beginning was GOD......period. Everything that exists, exists by Him and for Him and His purposes. If it didn't, it simply wouldn't exist, as He is not impotent to do anything about it, therefore it exists for His purpose. The premise that it doesn't, is no different than the ones in Christiandom who have a great big powerful devil, and a "little bitty" God.

To be subjected as we have been, with Christ as the hope of glory, necessitated something that was NOT like Christ to be in bondage TO. The only reasonable answer to "why" that is, is that without what is NOT like Christ, one cannot KNOW Christ by experience and learn to choose Christ. And I'm not talking about "mouthing the words of initial confession" choosing Christ, here, I'm saying perceiving Him in all things, which brings about a complete change eventually, ie. metamorphoo-ed, knowing Him as Adam knew His wife and they were one.

What is not being taken into account here, is that the Word is multi-faceted as well as multi-leveled, as Jacob's ladder showed. It is perfectly capable of speaking to all men on whatever level of understanding they have been brought to. Thus we can have a scripture like, "Resist the devil and he will flee" and "Agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him", that offer contradictory appearing instructions.

But since we are being trained to not judge evil and good in the same way Eve did, ie. by APPEARANCES and the desires of the flesh, we have to press in beyond that to gain the wisdom of the SPIRIT, which is above and not sensual or able to be discerned by the senses.

And so the difference is in where you are in your walk with Him, because both scriptures are absolutely true, but as long as this earth exists (and we are "earth"/flesh also) then also will seedtime and harvest exist = SEASONS. A season is also a level of experience of both the good and the evil. When there is no flesh left to kill, there is no need for seasons. My  :2c: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He never tempts any man:

Whatever our paradigm, it must evolve to include all of the scriptures, without contradiction. Short of that, we see through a glass darkly, our understanding is deficient, and the exploration continues. Otherwise we have simply settled in a place that feels good to us for personal reasons that have nothing to do with pressing into Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.

Good verse!
May view should be clear by now. So no need to repeat it.
Two questions for you:
a] Do you see contradictions between certain verses discussed in this topic?
b] If yes; have you solved the contradictions in some way?