The Problem of Evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

Think about this on a higher level. 
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way. 
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good. 
This is the only way we can learn what love is. 
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.

Well, that is quite contradictory to the suggestion that God is unlimited in power.

You say that we can only learn a certain way.   

So then I personally see that as a limitation, unless God could have created us to learn differently where we would not ever suffer.

So the whole point of this thread has been the moral implications of a God who did not have to subject us to pain and suffering but did any way.   The "its righteous because God did it" doesn't cut it, it's bogus reasoning.

Some think it is bad to suggest God could not do certain things.   They tell me to read scripture and it says what it says but then contradict their own criteria for reading what it says when a verse is produced to say God cannot lie.

God cannot lie, to the carnal mind it is a limitation, suggesting in the negative sense that then God cannot do something.  However spiritually it is a supreme strength.

I believe that God did not "Create" evil as a plan and forethought that manifested as a choice.  I believe God knows that the path from our creation to perfection of being one with him must include evil and perhaps the only choice God could make to keep us from experiencing it would be to never have created us.

And yes, I am saying God cannot do absolutely anything, because he can't, those limitations to our carnal mind are actually strengths and assurances that, this ONLY path to God that God cannot change is supremely set in stone.   Supreme assurance of each and every ones perfection.

I simply believe that to be a truth that explains how God is indeed truly righteous and not simply a monster that chose to give us pain and suffering when a different way could have happened.

I think we are in agreement Phaze?

God is limited in the sense that He cannot do the illogical.  Certain things MUST BE a certain way.

He cannot make a square circle. 
He cannot make 2+2=5** (** some mathies like to joke that 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 - its funny but its nonsense).
And He cannot make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it.

These concepts in themselves are illogical - atheists like to use these questions to "prove" God cannot exist - but they are really trick questions based on something illogical.  Now to tie it in with the topic of the OP.

How can one learn what goodness is without also understanding what evil is?  How can one understand why LOVE is good, without also understanding what non-LOVE is?  It is a logical impossibility.

So in the same way that God cannot make a rock so big He cannot even lift it - He ALSO cannot teach what LOVE is without also giving us an experience of evil.

You worded it a bit better than me Phaze when you say God did not make a "choice" to create evil - as if implying there was another way to teach us what was required to be taught so we would have full knowledge of the truth and come to be in His image of LOVE.  There is simply no other way.  It MUST BE this way.

Our faith and hope is that God will redeem us from this bondage and bring us to this full knowledge of the truth.  And that is what the second part of those verses I posted earlier say:

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



We would not even know what hope is if there was nothing to hope for...

In that I agree,  it is the nature of things and how it must be.   The assertion often is that God is all powerful so he did not actually have to do that.  But the premise is false.   The true premise is that we must get past what appears to be limitations of God and realize that some things must be because that is the nature of things and it cannot be any other way and that it is a supreme glory of righteousness of nature NOT of a choice "rationalized" as righteous based on a false premise.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister C...  :cloud9:

Cardinal you are so right.

She (Card) does have much insight, doesn't she sister Charlotte!  :thumbsup:

Lefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob?

Here is my  :2c: about this (God being IMPARTIAL)...

It is HIS PURPOSE which is being fulfilled... and therefore the steps and elements that HE decides shall be utilized in the accomplishment of that PURPOSE are utilized without regard to them concerning "their observation" of the PURPOSE being accomplished -- Rom 9:20

This whole thing (the creation and History of man) AND Eternity is about YHVH... and absolutely NOT about us.  For if not for Him... there IS no "us"... :nod:

"Us" whining about OUR part in His agenda (the unfolding of HIS PURPOSE)... is nothing but VANITY which actively proceeds from us.  :sigh:

For the PURPOSE results in ALL obtaining EQUALITY from Him -- 1 Cor 15:28 

That you nor I was "chosen" to be PAUL or PETER, does not mean that YHVH favored them over you and I... He decided each part of the PUZZLE as equally important (regardless of the "parts" objections)...

In order for the PUZZLE to be ...COMPLETE... ALL pieces no matter HOW small or trivial in contribution, must be present in order for the PUZZLE to BE complete.

EXAMPLE --- Kind of like a football team -- God chooses PAUL to be the quarterback which throws a touchdown to PETER, as the rest of us "blockers" are and remain, quietly anonymous.

But the TRUTH is that, ...the "touchdown" would NEVER have been COMPLETED unless the "anonymous blockers" did what they did... and they were EVERY BIT as IMPORTANT as the 2 that got recognized in the game!  :dontknow:

Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.

CHB

There IS sis... as I said... it is not about ISRAEL or Abraham, or Moses, or Peter or Paul or CHB or Card or White Wings, or Jabcat or Lefein or Thinktank, or Seth or reFormer, or the Pope or Hitler or Don Rickles or the Beatles or Taylor Swift, or your next door neighbor, or L. Ray Smith, or J. Preston Eby ,or Barack Obama, or the HOMELESS GUY or willieH...

It is about...

  :bowing: :bowing: :bowing: YHVH   GOD, our LOVING Father :IloveU:  who is LOVE  :HeartThrob: and who shall BE ALL in ALL ----------> Forever! ----------------------------------> bringing ALL of us to ALL of us --------------> :cloud9: :laughing7: :happygrin: :winkgrin: :bigGrin: :grin: :boyheart: :Sparkletooth: :girlheart: :gangel: :bgdance: :dsunny: :reachout: :hiya: :friendstu: :2thumbs: :love4: :flowerred: :Gdance:

...willieH :boogie:

[willieH]

Amos 3:6  ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13  .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16  Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16  .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17  O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11  Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10  .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15  .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22  And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25  He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4  Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21  Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11  Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3  So says Jehovah of Hosts, ....  go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Amen bro... I have enjoyed your offerings in this discussion...  :thumbsup:

The KNOWLEDGE of Evil as well as Good both find origination IN YHVH... for they are ONE KNOWLEDGE together.

willieH    :goodpost:

[thinktank]

Hi Leifin, I haven't finished reading this whole thread yet - I just got to your post and thought I would comment.

You say above:
" I believe it is impossible for God to have in any way brought forth evil into Reality.  However, it is an insult to every fibre of my being when I see people say that he has out of some odd need to make God to father of wickedness."

I just want to show you the flip side of the coin:

I believe it is impossible for God to have not known the evil that would exist in our physical reality.  So it is an insult to God to suggest that He did not want this evil to exist, and yet here it is - implying God was unable to stop it.  It makes evil out to be stronger than God, and God impotent because He could not stop the evil in this physical world.

Consider who is in charge here:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So here we see God has subjected the creation to vanity.  Vanity is sin.  God has bound everyone over to disobedience.  Disobedience is sin.

There is your answer Lefein.

Stop looking at this at the carnal physical level.  Yes rape is bad.  Yes lots of evil things happen to us in this world.

Yet we have scripture that says God created evil, God subjected mankind to futility/vanity, God bound people over to disobedience.

Think about this on a higher level.
God is not doing this to be mean.  He is doing it because it MUST BE this way.
This is the only way we can learn about goodness - we need to understand evil in order to understand good.
This is the only way we can learn what love is.
This is the only way we can be made into his image - which is LOVE.

That is the point for it all - and that is why God created evil, subjected mankind to futility and bound people for disobedience.  It really is for a good reason - so that we can understand LOVE and be made in His image of LOVE.  I have a feeling when the physical passes away, we will all understand why we had to go through this mess in the physical so we could grow spiritually.  Time heals all wounds but the experience gained is priceless.



I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.

I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.


God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.

God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.

The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence   :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.

Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness  :mshock:

Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us

[CHB]

I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice.  So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.

However, in playing along;

I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse.  You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured.  I'm one of God's worst sons.  My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect.  I am a chief amongst sinners.

Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts.  He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.

Same here.  Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?

CHB

What is Gods will right now for the world?

Is not to be saved?

Is it Gods will to steal thief and destroy?

Please take your time in answering that

That all come to the knowledge of the truth.

CHB

[thinktank]

which is?

[CHB]

willieH: Hi sister C...  :cloud9:

Cardinal you are so right.

She (Card) does have much insight, doesn't she sister Charlotte!  :thumbsup:

Lefein keeps saying that God doesn't have favorites and the Bible does say that God has no respect of persons but what about Esau and Jacob?

Here is my  :2c: about this (God being IMPARTIAL)...

It is HIS PURPOSE which is being fulfilled... and therefore the steps and elements that HE decides shall be utilized in the accomplishment of that PURPOSE are utilized without regard to them concerning "their observation" of the PURPOSE being accomplished -- Rom 9:20

This whole thing (the creation and History of man) AND Eternity is about YHVH... and absolutely NOT about us.  For if not for Him... there IS no "us"... :nod:

"Us" whining about OUR part in His agenda (the unfolding of HIS PURPOSE)... is nothing but VANITY which actively proceeds from us.  :sigh:

For the PURPOSE results in ALL obtaining EQUALITY from Him -- 1 Cor 15:28 

That you nor I was "chosen" to be PAUL or PETER, does not mean that YHVH favored them over you and I... He decided each part of the PUZZLE as equally important (regardless of the "parts" objections)...

In order for the PUZZLE to be ...COMPLETE... ALL pieces no matter HOW small or trivial in contribution, must be present in order for the PUZZLE to BE complete.

EXAMPLE --- Kind of like a football team -- God chooses PAUL to be the quarterback which throws a touchdown to PETER, as the rest of us "blockers" are and remain, quietly anonymous.

But the TRUTH is that, ...the "touchdown" would NEVER have been COMPLETED unless the "anonymous blockers" did what they did... and they were EVERY BIT as IMPORTANT as the 2 that got recognized in the game!  :dontknow:

Also the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Plus, Jesus said it was only given to the disciples to understand. Maybe there is a different meaniong in the two haven't studied it out yet.

CHB

There IS sis... as I said... it is not about ISRAEL or Abraham, or Moses, or Peter or Paul or CHB or Card or White Wings, or Jabcat or Lefein or Thinktank, or Seth or reFormer, or the Pope or Hitler or Don Rickles or the Beatles or Taylor Swift, or your next door neighbor, or L. Ray Smith, or J. Preston Eby ,or Barack Obama, or the HOMELESS GUY or willieH...

It is about...

  :bowing: :bowing: :bowing: YHVH   GOD, our LOVING Father :IloveU:  who is LOVE  :HeartThrob: and who shall BE ALL in ALL ----------> Forever! ----------------------------------> bringing ALL of us to ALL of us --------------> :cloud9: :laughing7: :happygrin: :winkgrin: :bigGrin: :grin: :boyheart: :Sparkletooth: :girlheart: :gangel: :bgdance: :dsunny: :reachout: :hiya: :friendstu: :2thumbs: :love4: :flowerred: :Gdance:

...willieH :boogie:

willie, you are right and I repent in sackcloth and ashes.

CHB

[CHB]

which is?

That the world through Christ will be saved.

CHB

[legoman]

I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.

I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.


God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.

God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.

Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.

The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence   :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.

Is God just "taking advantage" of the badness in this world so he can teach us about goodness?  How fortuitous this is for God - He really lucked out - this world let Him teach us about love... almost like He planned it that way :winkgrin:

Did God design things to be like this?:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Futility.  Vanity.  Disobedience.  That is what God subjected us to.

Perhaps look at the list of verses WhiteWings posted above.

Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness  :mshock:

Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us

I think you are missing a sense of proportion or scale here.  Of course we do not send our kids to torture camps to learn about forgiveness.  You cannot compare the sense of scale and control that God has with the amount of control a parent has.  To put it simply, we are not God.

But we do let our kids play with the neighbor kids, and then when one of them hits the other one on the head and takes their toy, we step in and teach them that is wrong and teach them to say sorry.

Sometimes we have to let our kids fall down so they will learn to get up.
Sometimes we have to discipline our kids so they will learn what they have done is wrong.

To the child it may not seem "fair" that he has to stand in the corner, or say sorry, or endure a punishment - but it will achieve the desired results and that child will understand why it was necessary when he matures.

Most of mankind are spiritual babes, not understanding why they should do something or why certain things are necessary.  The problem of evil is part of this.  This is not milk, we are into the meat of the matter here.  It takes time to digest.

[legoman]

dup

[micah7:9]

I think that you are only looking at secondary motives. I however and others such as lefein and molly are looking at the root cause of evil.

I agree with you that God does use evil to punish us for our own evil. But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him. God punishes us not because we are good but because we are evil. The reason God punishes us is for our own good, so that we turn away from evil and do that which is good.


God however is good and there is no darkness within him. I believe many here need a revelation of God's perfect love, to understand this truth.

God can stop the evil, but his desire is for all to repent and be saved, so he must draw us to him over time.

Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.

The idea that we need to learn darkness in order to learn goodness to me is about taking advantage of this mess while it is here for us to overcome even as Jesus overcome, be of good cheer, we have a champion that overcame for us.
The idea that God designed things to be like this, is just too crazy. This world is barbaric and totally alien to the ways of God, it is way too barbaric to be thought of as a school. You also seem to think that humanity will be the only creation in existence   :mshock: what about archangel michael, the most importatn angel in Gods arsenal, he didnt have to prove himself by suffering darkness, in fact I believe only a drop of Gods creation has to experience this mess of a world we live in. Think of the future creations in eons to come, will they also have to go through a hellish earth experience in order to learn about love.

Is God just "taking advantage" of the badness in this world so he can teach us about goodness?  How fortuitous this is for God - He really lucked out - this world let Him teach us about love... almost like He planned it that way :winkgrin:

Did God design things to be like this?:

Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Futility.  Vanity.  Disobedience.  That is what God subjected us to.

Perhaps look at the list of verses WhiteWings posted above.

Should we subject our kids to torture camps so that they can learn about love and forgiveness  :mshock:

Because thats what people are basically saying God does to us

I think you are missing a sense of proportion or scale here.  Of course we do not send our kids to torture camps to learn about forgiveness.  You cannot compare the sense of scale and control that God has with the amount of control a parent has.  To put it simply, we are not God.

But we do let our kids play with the neighbor kids, and then when one of them hits the other one on the head and takes their toy, we step in and teach them that is wrong and teach them to say sorry.

Sometimes we have to let our kids fall down so they will learn to get up.
Sometimes we have to discipline our kids so they will learn what they have done is wrong.

To the child it may not seem "fair" that he has to stand in the corner, or say sorry, or endure a punishment - but it will achieve the desired results and that child will understand why it was necessary when he matures.

Most of mankind are spiritual babes, not understanding why they should do something or why certain things are necessary.  The problem of evil is part of this.  This is not milk, we are into the meat of the matter here.  It takes time to digest.

Amen  :thumbsup:

[CHB]

But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him.

If the devil has to have permission from God before he does anything, why do you think we don't?

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Pause for thought... so if God can stop the evil, but does not, He must have a purpose for it... carry on.

Let me interject something for a moment.

If Gods creation of us knowing our perfection is supremely set in stone must inlude evil as the "nature" of things and God coul;d not have created us any other way then we have to realize an important thing.

God having the power to stop evil might end in our destruction.    Just as we have the power to rip open a butterflys cocoon as it is struggling to break free.   We might believe it a compassionate act to rip open the cocoon and stop the suffering, but in righteousness we cannot because the butterfly MUST finish the process.  Such is the nature of things and that nature is God and God does not change.

I think the premise that some come from is what I was talking about earlier.   And that is God could not have created us to become one with him any other way.   So this is not about God choosing to cause a rapist to rape when he could do something else,  it is about man manifesting evil through the result of not being  finished in the process yet.

[willieH]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites. 

Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it?   If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.

ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...

IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture...  :nod:

I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.

Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod:   For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?

Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE  as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...

He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation.  :dontknow: 

Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.

There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured...  here are just a few:

1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.


willieH   :cloud9:

[thinktank]

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do, then this scripture makes sense. He bounds and punishes his creation, then he lets them go and has mercy on them. A bit like saddam hussein who jails and tortures people and when he lets them go, considers it mercy.

But if you search this scripture with God being good then we know that in order for good to have mercy the people in question must have done something evil for God to chastize and punish them for their iniquity.

Our prayer is not God give me temptation, but rather God deliver us from temptation and the evil one for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and forever amen.

If this is a learning experince why does God give us a prayer that actively prays against such temptation.

The history of man is a dark and mysterious, no one really knows where we come from. Perhaps we are the heavenly host in rev 12 who have been cast down to earth by the dragon and because of our rebellion are now made subject to vanity, not willingly but by Him, so that he may have mercy upon us for our iniquity.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

I appreciate the note and will consider what you have written, these kinds of things prompt me to ask about possibilites. 

Is it possible that in the future God could cause you to drown your grandchildren if he so desired it?   If you do not have grandchildren, the neighborhood kids will suffice in the example.

ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...

IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture...  :nod:

I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.

Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod:   For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?

Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE  as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...

He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation.  :dontknow: 

Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.

There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured...  here are just a few:

1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.


willieH   :cloud9:

Thank you for the reply willie,  very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.

[Lefein]

So, in the effort to get some straight yes or no answers to these tough questions instead of apologetics, and work arounds, a series of questions I'd like yes/no to.

And I repeat for the sake of some who might protest saying; "Blah blah!  You have no right to order us how to answer the way you want to answer!!!"  No, I just want to have something legible I can ponder without having to wrestle with jargon, and interpretations, I am wanting to ascertain - Belief, not interpretation.

So please, forgive my insistence on yes or no...but it is for a "good purpose" after all...

This is a VOLUNTARY Survey.  You are not obligated to answer it.  But if you do choose to answer it - yes, or no.  That will suffice.
___

God directly created all evil, and has caused all the wrongs in this world?

God is doing evil to us, creating evil towards us, having evil will toward us (the intent that we shall go through evil), and doing evil through us?

God Plays favourites?

God has a heart abundantly full of evil? - for God can create nothing that does not first exist in his being, his heart, his imaginations. Remember the scriptures, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks - God's voice is what creates; And God said "Let there be light, and there was light."

God blames man for his own evil doing?

God believes that the ends justify the means?

God gives no choice to man what so ever in their pre-determined fate to do evil, and nothing but - for all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God.  And then upon man doing his will - God punishes them?

The all knowing God puts us through evil of every kind as a "test" to overcome, so that in a perfect world where everything is supposedly good - we'll be able to...do what? Overcome the evil in the next life with all of this useless experience of being able to overcome evil? (this you may answer with more than a yes or no)

God can make a rock bigger than himself, that he cannot lift - he's ludicrously powerful?

God can lie - albeit indirectly?

God doesn't have to obey any of his own laws?  "Do as I say, not as I do"

God expects us to be more righteous than him?

God is a god of works - we have to experience evil, even doing it in order to be perfect, rather than relying on Jesus' saving blood on the Cross?

God's heart is full of hate, lust, avarice, greed, lies, theft, covetousness, etc; having inventeda these? (acreated them - spoke them into being - devised them - brought them forth - expressed them into existence by some way, which would require that it was in his imagination)

God forgives us for him making us sin against him, and rebel against him without any form of autonomy or choice in the matter?  God literally makes/forces us to punch him in the face (after having predetermined it), and then forgives us and/or punishes us for it?

God caused every one (or even some) of his children to experience pain, over-kill pain, pain not necessary for any remedial repentance, merely so we would "experience" it?  IE: the heavenly father pulled down our pants and wailed on our backsides with a nail driven club just so we would know what it feels like.

God expects us to believe he is good, after he has abused us?  Literally.

God is the god of Calvinism - just no "Eternal Damnation" doctrine.  Hell is relocated on Earth instead, for all intents and purposes. (Applied Calvinism)

__ __ __

I want serious yes or no answers please, I don't want "Shut up Lefein! You're this, that, and other for asking us and wanting us to say yes or no!" (I've seen this sort of post before, so I say it ahead of time, answer the post of simply skip it if not...it is a little disappointing I even need to make the disclaimer in the first place.)

[legoman]

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do, then this scripture makes sense. He bounds and punishes his creation, then he lets them go and has mercy on them. A bit like saddam hussein who jails and tortures people and when he lets them go, considers it mercy.

But if you search this scripture with God being good then we know that in order for good to have mercy the people in question must have done something evil for God to chastize and punish them for their iniquity.

Our prayer is not God give me temptation, but rather God deliver us from temptation and the evil one for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and forever amen.

If this is a learning experince why does God give us a prayer that actively prays against such temptation.

The history of man is a dark and mysterious, no one really knows where we come from. Perhaps we are the heavenly host in rev 12 who have been cast down to earth by the dragon and because of our rebellion are now made subject to vanity, not willingly but by Him, so that he may have mercy upon us for our iniquity.

I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.

[thinktank]

But don't forget that we human beings are not the perfect article, in many ways we are in league with the devil and are rebellious with him.

If the devil has to have permission from God before he does anything, why do you think we don't?

CHB

What makes you think he asks God for permission?

Did he ask God permission to trick Adam and Eve?

Did he go before God to ask permission to destroy Job?

Why did he go before God concerning Job, what was his original motivation?

[micah7:9]

I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.

[thinktank]

I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman

Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.

So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.

Do you understand?

[thinktank]

I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.

It is not my intention to cause fear. But what I said changes nothing about the fact that in this world terrible evil happens that cannot be explained by saying God is in total control, but does wake us up from our slumber, that when evil happens in this world, we dont just sit back and said, this is Gods will, but rather be whipped into action, to wage war against evil, and Jesus came to give us that victory, the gospel and its message is the weapon we use to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. We all have a job to do and that is to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth, it won't come by itself. Our weapons of warfare are not carnal but spiritual to the bringing down of stronholdd and wickedness in high places, wear the armour of God, the helmet of salvation, swing the sword of truth and look to the captain of our souls, Jesus Christ the overcomer and mighty king, who overcame, halleliwYAH.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I beleive you are reasoning very wrong with all your questions and how they are asked.
The Bible is quite clear that God created evil. Should one refuse or cannot accept what is written in His Word, then dont believe or accept it, and one might as well find a weaker God to believe in, because the God of the Bible is wise and strong enough to create evil and create light and handle evil with His might and power and wisdom to bring forth LOVE.

Actually it is not quite clear when the word "translated" to create associated with the word evil in the verse in question can also mean "cut down".

No offense this is a general comment and not at you individually.   When anyone asserts that the bible is clear on anything, that is incorrect.   You assert clarity from it being clear to you at the present time.   If someone else does not see scripture in the same light as you, that clarity is nonexistant.

Anyone who used to believe differenly than they do at this time should understand what I am saying.   If not please comment and perhaps I can try to clarify,  but to me is should be clear as day.   :happy3:

[legoman]

I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman

Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.

No problem.  Its much better for discussion that way  :thumbsup:

So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.

Do you understand?

I think mercy & grace are intrinsically tied together.  God is merciful and because of that He saves us all through His grace.  Yes humans have done evil - no doubt about it.

I do think we are intended to experience the "not-so-pleasant-ness" first before we experience the riches of His glory to come... again I refer to Romans 8:

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

This is, as you seem to realize, so we will learn to be humble and kind and understanding and not be "spoilt brats".
The whole passage follows similar idea of Romans 11... specifically:

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Philosophically it makes sense to me as well.  God is creating mankind - God is creating people of character.  The only way to produce character is by suffering and overcoming adversity.  God doesn't want a bunch of wimps who laze about all day gorging themselves on chocolate while living in their gold mansions deciding which Ferrari to drive that day (not that you were suggesting that LOL!).

If people are to learn how to be compassionate, there has to be some reason for people to show compassion.
If people are to learn how to forgive, by necessity people must be wronged so that they can forgive.
If people are to learn how to be strong and overcome, then there must be some obstacle to overcome.

Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.

That verse in a nutshell tells us why there is suffering.

You may ask, why do we need to learn how to be compassionate?  Why do we need to have character?  BECAUSE it is a GOOD THING.  That is what LOVE is: being compassionate.  That is what God is doing here: building character, teaching us how to LOVE - because God is LOVE and He is teaching us about Him.


So as you put it: God gives us a "below par life" - YES.  That is what this physical life is.  The physical is "below par".  The physical is corrupt.  The physical dies.  The physical will pass away.  However we will be raised incorruptible - spiritual.  This physical life is not the real life or real purpose.  The real life will be our spiritual life, and it will be glorious!

[Lefein]

I don't believe God is evil, nor weak, I think his strength comes from the fact that he did not create weakness (sin) neither did he ever become weak by sinning - either in proxy or directly - by creating evil in the first place, or doing it through others.  God not creating evil doesn't mean he is automatically weak, far from it.  However God creating evil does according to the scriptures - make his heart the seat of sin.

But if it is a choice between a weak perfect god, and a powerful evil god...I'll choose the weak god any day, atleast he's actually perfect, and not just pretending.

The scriptures dear friend, are quite plain...If God created evil, then evil is in his heart; as a man thinks so is he, out of the abundance of his heart the mouth speaks, these are laws, just like sowing and reaping is a law, it is a truth, a law, that what ever is the heart of a being, so is he in his expressions.  God created what he expressed out of his heart.  Is evil in his heart?  It is if he created it.

If you are full of hate...that hate will come out, for example.

I personally believe the verse accurately says "cuts down" darkness, and "cuts down" evil.  Or...Is the Bible perfectly clear when it says that God is going to eternally burn every man, woman, and child who doesn't repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ in Hellfire, and brimstone as the lamb watches the show?  The Bible says that too according to a few translations.  Yet here we stand with apologies concerning Aion and Olam, and many other "perfectly clear" things.