The Problem of Evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just finished reading this article. It talks about all the calamities that happen in the world and who is at fault. About blaming God.

"Judgment on Man and God"  http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d061101.htm

After reading this article I have come to the conclusion that one reason God has dealt with man by evil is to teach man forgiveness.
We will need to come to the point where we will FORGIVE GOD for all the things done in this world that we consider evil.

If we can forgive God for all the evils that have occurred to man since the beginning of time then we have truly become a son of God.
When you think about it, God has really poured it on us. We have had children killed, lost everything we had, most have experienced sickness, mental anguish. All of this and more have come from God. God forgives us, we learn to forgive God, a mutual forgiveness. We are becoming like God.

CHB

After reading the bible I have come to the conclusion that God has nothing to with the evil we know.

[Paul Hazelwood]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be. 

[Lefein]

What happening are you refering to?

Satan going from innocent, to father of lies by some means or another.

Actually here is what I said.

I was making a general observation about the God = maker of evil party.  Not you specifically.

"Where did evil come from?

Selfishness, according to my understanding.  But it is of my Biblical understanding of scripture, that Death is what caused sin.  The sting of death - is sin.  Death is separation from God.

Why do we sin?

Distance from God.

Why aren't we perfect?

Our spirit is perfect, our soul is being sanctified, our body is disposable.  We are perfect in progress.

Did God make a mistake and can't fix things?

No, he knew what was coming.  It is of my opinion that he made everything good, anticipating to make everything better after shaking out all possibilities of evil or "against his will"-ness that might arise.

Is he so blind and weak,

Not at all, he's far more clever than we think, and far more cunning than to have had to make evil in the first place.  He can have his cake and eat it too, having never produced a sinful fruit in his infinite life - and still with great finesse ensuring that all evil that might be able to arise would be destroyed.

or does he just ignore the whole situation?

Jesus.

This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil?

Jesus, glorification, all consuming fire, long suffering, grace, (free-will...imo), and his ways are higher than ours.  He can't sin, that is a fact, he therefore cannot produce sinful fruit, or sinful actions, or anything even close to sin - only Justice/righteousness.  He has nothing to do with evil, darkness has no fellowship with light.  God is Light.

Have you ask yourself these questions?

Often.

If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it?

God doesn't have to play Genie.

If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me?

What does that make God if he's the one beating someone to death directly, or by proxy?

If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what?

What if it is God doing it?  Is he too evil, to callous, to wicked?  Did God create impurity, and invent wickedness just to have to take it out?

God's justice is restoration multiplied for evil done.  God however, is too good to do anything bad.  Sinning is bad.

At any rate; the example of a man beating up another what would God do?  Send you...his hands, his child, his son, his ambassador of justice to carry out his will in his name.  His Good, Right, and Just will.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.

Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?

In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?

Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?

Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?

(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?

CHB

The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to.  These rationalizations really don't hold up.  Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering?   What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place?  An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?

[CHB]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?

Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it.  At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?

Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?

[thinktank]

My observation; certain persons seem to have the idea that a god who did not create wickedness, is a weak god.

hmmn...

Actually here is what I said.
"Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?

I was asking you these questions.  If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what?  Would you answer me this question please?

CHB

These valid questions can also be asked for any viewpoint of God. If GOd is giving us knowedge of evil, does that mean that this his play pen? I find that due to the depravity of evil that happens here, that reducing this place to a mere school is being a bit challenging concept. Does this mean that in order to advane in life one must go through trials for eternity? Where is the promise that God won't put us through torture chambers to see whether we still love him after our "trials".



I was asking you these questions.  If God isn't in control of all that goes on in the world, why doesn't he stop it? If I see someone beating someone to death and just stand there and watch, what does that make me? If I have the power to stop the one doing the beating why don't I stop it? Am I too weak, just don't care, scared. blind, what?  Would you answer me this question please?
CHB

Possibly the reason God does not stop this pain it is because of what Jesus said

Who done this?

An enemy has sown tares among the wheat, lets wait until the harvest before uprooting lest we accidently uproot the wheat along with the tares.

If he destroyed satan he would destroy us, because the devil is part of our world and thinking  :dontknow:

[FineLinen]

The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."

[Paul Hazelwood]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

Easy,  ALL has a context of what is righteousness.   Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.

[CHB]

Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.

Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?

In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?

Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?

Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?

(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?

CHB

The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to.  These rationalizations really don't hold up.  Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering?   What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place?  An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?

Don't you think we are learning from all the things that happen in the world? If you can say that you have not learned a single thing from all the evil that has happened in this life then I will agree with you that it is all for nothing.  We have two forces that are operating, good and evil, we learn the consequences of both.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Rape is mostly revenge and power, murder is hatred, theft is greed, greed is lusting after the wrong things.

Ok, if we never experienced or knew about these things, how would we know if they were wrong or evil? How would we know what murder was if it never happened? Would we learn to forgive, feel remorse, love, or any of the many things we feel if not for the good and the evil we see, or experience around us?

In order to see what you say about evil one has to ignore a lot of scripture, how do you do that?

Where did evil come from? Why do we sin? Why aren't we perfect? Did God make a mistake and can't fix things? Is he so blind and weak, or does he just ignore the whole situation? This is his world and his creation why doesn't he fix it if he can't stand sin, or had nothing to do with evil? Have you ask yourself these questions?

Why was the crucifixion planned before man was even created if he had nothing to do with sin? Why did God choose his own son to be a sacrifice?

(Ecc. 3:1) "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". How would you explain this verse?

CHB

The root issue is if God invented evil when he did not have to.  These rationalizations really don't hold up.  Is God so weak and powerless that he couldn't make us like him to begin with without pain and suffering?   What is it about pain and suffering that is worthwhile if it never existed in the first place?  An eternal existance with evil never existing is bad how?

Don't you think we are learning from all the things that happen in the world? If you can say that you have not learned a single thing from all the evil that has happened in this life then I will agree with you that it is all for nothing.  We have two forces that are operating, good and evil, we learn the consequences of both.

CHB

We could be learning that God is an S.O.B.  but I think you have missed the point of what I wrote.

[CHB]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

Easy,  ALL has a context of what is righteousness.   Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.

Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?

CHB

[livingwater]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

Easy,  ALL has a context of what is righteousness.   Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.

Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?

CHB

can God tell a lie?

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

[Paul Hazelwood]

CLV Bible... Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

:dontknow:


Paul

God knew what we would experience when he created us, this is not something that can be avoided it is a manifestation of our lack of knowledge.  God did not create it as a result of planning or choice it is a creation by the mere fact we exist.

God can't change it because there is no other way it could be.

Then what do you do with these verses? (Luke 137) For with God NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.
(Matt. 19:26) with God ALL things are possible.

CHB

Easy,  ALL has a context of what is righteousness.   Causing a rape is not righteousness so righteous rape is not possible.

Are you saying that there are things that are impossible with God?

CHB

Indeed I am.

[Molly]

An enemy has sown tares among the wheat, lets wait until the harvest before uprooting lest we accidently uproot the wheat along with the tares.

If he destroyed satan he would destroy us, because the devil is part of our world and thinking 

Agree he has to wait until the end of the age to eradicate evil.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?

Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it.  At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?

Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?

:cloud9: I suppose it's only bad if you consider it bad to do away with scripture, which I do. My  :2c:

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: I don't understand why this is such an affront to consider that God created the darkness/evil for His purposes?

Because for one, we need to learn that there is a distinction between good and evil and not just a being that says it is good because he can wipe everyone out, so at the point of a sword, he says, it is good because I did it.  At that point, what exactly are we believing in and why is it necessary that we do so?

Why is it so bad that we learn that he didn't?

:cloud9: I suppose it's only bad if you consider it bad to do away with scripture, which I do. My  :2c:

I guess, since I have not done away with scripture I can't really say.

[Lefein]

Not to sound perhaps...heretical, but I'd rather have God over the Bible any day.  Without God, its nothing but another book.

[jabcat]

Not to sound perhaps...heretical, but I'd rather have God over the Bible any day.  Without God, its nothing but another book.

That's not the point Lefein.  Someday I'll share some information with you about the Word, written, revealed, and made flesh.  They don't separate, they go together.  Also, plz check the link in my sig.  Thanks.

[Lefein]

I've not denied the scriptures, only that if I were on an island somewhere in the middle of the ocean, I'd rather have Spirit than Letter.

[jabcat]

We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read.    Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].


Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.

Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.

I'm not talking about the hebrew word ra.

That's the word in scriptures, translated 'evil'.  I really try to not assume, but since you quoted that scripture, and the topic is the problem of evil... but maybe you're talking about something else, then.

[Lefein]

iutzr aur u'bura chshk oshe shlum u'bura ro ani ieue oshe kl ale

one-forming light and'one'creating[cutting down, dispatching-kjv] darkness one-making/one doing well-being[shalom] and one-creating[cutting down, dispatching-kjv] evil I Yahweh one-making/one doing all-of these.

Iutzr - forming, moulding, squeezing into shape;

H3335  yatsar  yaw-tsar'

probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape);

((compare H3331)); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. form a resolution).


KJV: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.

___

u'Bura

H1254  bara'  baw-raw'

a primitive root;

(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes).


KJV:  choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

___ ___ ___

Lefeinian rendering;

Forming light, cutting down darkness, the one making "shalom" (doing good) and cutting down evil, I Yahweh am doing all of these.

Etymological contrasts; my commentary.

I Yahweh - make light, illuminate --- I Yahweh cut down darkness, illuminating it, cutting it with light: Light being made, vs. Dark being unmade.

I Yahweh - make shalom (peace, goodness, resting, happiness, etc), do good --- I Yahweh cut down evil, filling it with good, killing death by filling it with life, killing the old man to raise up the new: Shalom is done, Evil is undone.

I Yahweh do these things.

[jabcat]

I believe in the other most recent "evil" thread, the idea of "cutting down" was also suggested.  It's interesting and worth consideration and further examination, IMO. 

How would you tie that in, specifically, with God bringing death to thousands in the flood?  That He didn't really do it.  That He did it but by doing so, He was cutting down evil?  Or some other option?

[Lefein]

Justice is not evil.  Especially justice on the wicked.

CLV Gn 6:5 And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the evil of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but evil all its days.

AV Gn 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

In order to save their spirit, he had to cut them off of the playing field where they were able to engage in wickedness.  Think "Divine straight jacket", to prevent their self harm from going into intolerable levels (intolerable in the sense of the unknown of what might happen if they had been allowed to continue further in their evils, maybe even destroying the earth itself if not checked).

Sin is self harm, above all else imo, this is my understanding of the flood anyway.  If I recall, aren't the flood people the ones Christ preached to in the prisons?  How better of an end for God himself to free them from their asylum.

[lomarah]

All I know is God does not willingly grieve the spirits of men. If He did "create" evil it was for a purpose and He does not like to inflict us with it. Think of your own children - the only time you willingly let them go through pain is if it is absolutely necessary, like a life or death situation. I believe God feels the same way about us.  :2c: