The Problem of Evil

[WhiteWings]

NDE's are not really proof. Everyone can write one. Anyway pasted below:

Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?

[Paul Hazelwood]

NDE's are not really proof. Everyone can write one. Anyway pasted below:

Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?

Are you limiting this to things that as humans we percieve as out of our control rather than what evil deeds we may commit that may possibly be within out control to do or not do?

[WhiteWings]

I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?

No, it was concerning your question here

There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?

Whatr I am asking is about the nature of these agreements in reference to evil.

What agreements might you be suggesting?

For instance a human who comitted an evil deed,  where does that fit in to what you was suggesting?

[WhiteWings]

Now I understand but I have no answer. I just don't know.
Just assuming the NDEs are true it possibly answers why some people are healty all their life while others are very often ill. It could be related to the task they choose.
Then the obvious question is are the raped and the rapists both carrying out their agreed upon task. I don't know. It's problematic for me.
The same as some verses/passages. It's all seems very clear but OTOH something doesn't feel right.

Vague answer... it's the best I can do right now.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's exactly what was communicated to me. He took me up in spirit into the heavens where the stars are. I was seeing in the Spirit. I saw what looked like silver-ish round orbs of light with faces on them. I heard (also by the Spirit, they didn't really "speak") them talking about about what they were going to do here. I felt the joy of the Lord hit me, just as they had it also, describing their forthcoming lives. They knew about relationships with one another, and had joy even over the "bad" things. They knew it was to perfect unconditional love in one another, and they were excited about it.

I was shocked because I had NO doctrine in place for this experience and I had to seek His face in the Word to "see" this after it was over. Blessings.....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Now I understand but I have no answer. I just don't know.
Just assuming the NDEs are true it possibly answers why some people are healty all their live while others are very often ill. It could be related to the task they choose.
Then the obvious question is are the raped and the rapists both carrying out their agreed upon task. I don't know. It's problematic for me.
The same as some verses/passages. It's all seems very clear but OTOH something doesn't feel right.

Vague answer... it's the best I can do right now.

That is ok, it is good to contemplate possibilities.

[thinktank]

I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?

The problem with your theory is that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.

Another problem is that the average folk finds earth a challenging place without a handicap, so who are these "brave" souls who want this challenge?

Another problem is, if there are 100 handicaps born but only 50 volunteers, that leaves 50 bodies without a spirit man or soul inside them.

Also another problem is that handicapped babies from what I have read might have been subjected to poison chemicals such as mercury, excessive alcahol, etc in the womb. Do you think it's Gods will for the mother to drink excessivly when pregnant?
Or for the baby to be born in a toxic environment where there is lead and mercury?

Perhaps God is taking advantage of these evil situations, making good out of evil, but there's a lot of questions concerning this, the ones I have presented are only a few.
:2c:

May God's will triumph upon the earth, Hail the king of kings  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

I don't understand your question Paul.
Control over NDEs?

The problem with your theory

My theory is  abit strong wording...

is that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.

Or teh task was completed.

Another problem is that the average folk finds earth a challenging place without a handicap, so who are these "brave" souls who want this challenge?

Don't know. The  fast learmers perhaps.

Another problem is, if there are 100 handicaps born but only 50 volunteers, that leaves 50 bodies without a spirit man or soul inside them

The body is created for the task. Not the task put in the body.

Also another problem is that handicapped babies from what I have read might have been subjected to poison chemicals such as mercury, excessive alcahol, etc in the womb. Do you think it's Gods will for the mother to drink excessivly when pregnant?
Or for the baby to be born in a toxic environment where there is lead and mercury?

I don't see the problem with that. If, IF, the NDE is true then the things you described are part of the deal.

[Yab Yum]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

[Cardinal]

The problem with your theory is that, let's say a spirit man said I want to be born handicapped to experience this challenge. So he gets born, but through the process of time, a miracle man of God comes along and heals the handicap, so now the spirit man is in a healed functional body, the opposite of what he wanted.

:cloud9: Sort of like the scenario with Jesus and the man born blind, where the people asked Him, "Who did sin, this man or his parents?", and Jesus replied, "Neither. This was done to show the glory of God." Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

How could a good God create a bad devil? How could a holy God create a wicked devil? How could the God of infinite love create a devil of utter hatred and viciousness, a murderer from the beginning? How could the God of all Truth create a devil who is a liar and the father of it, who never did, from the very beginning, have any truth in him? How could the God who IS LIGHT, and in whom there is no darkness at all, create a devil who is the Prince of the power of darkness?

There are untold millions of Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L  T-H-I-N-G-S  A-R-E  O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect", then one of the "perfect" angels "made himself" into the devil, and that devil came in and wrecked the works of God's hands and so degraded God's beautiful and perfect creation that the Lord Almighty Himself was hard put to the test to discover some means to restore creation from the clutches of this wicked one. Why, oh why, can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. What will you do with it, beloved? "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says. "Surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word RA which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used!

But how could God do this? The answer is so simple, so plain, so basic, we blush and bow our heads with shame even for the asking! How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light! Anyone can perform this simple feat at any hour of the day or night. The sequence is totally correct, as we read in Isa. 45:7, "I FORM THE LIGHT, and create darkness." The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness. But the light came first, and therefore is always able to swallow up the darkness into light itself again. "The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out" (Jn. 1:5, Phillips). The light will always conquer darkness, but darkness shall never conquer light. But to create darkness - it is only necessary to withdraw the light!

Another illustration: Life is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life. Death witnesses to how great LIFE really is! But life will not tell you anything at all about death, for as long as there be life, death is non-existent. But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Now, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements. God withheld light. He withheld truth. He withheld life. In the same way a hormonal imbalance in a human being can cause excruciating pain, sickness, stunted growth, vicious temper, mental illness, or create a psychopathic killer - so a SPIRITUAL or PSYCHICAL deficiency or imbalance produces a spiritually deranged personality out of character with the perfect nature of God. — Eby

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW12.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

There are untold millions of Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L  T-H-I-N-G-S  A-R-E  O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as the harlot system has taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect",

Yes, nothing was ever made perfect as God to begin with.   Our creation is a process from infancy to maturity.  what we perceive as evil is real because it affects and how we think and react and feel,  but it is not of God as a choice he made when another option was available, this is what retains his righteous nature.    A God who would cause a rapist to rape when indeed the limitless being could have chosen for something else is not of a righteous character. 

It is of God because there is no other entity in which creation originated, but it is not of Gods character of choosing.  It is how things must be in our infancy because that is the "Nature" of our path.

[Beloved Servant]

Taking offense is a luxury which stronger men than myself may endulge.  When our egos cause us to miss the bigger picture it's time to reevaluate our motives for debate.   :2c:

Following in the Master's footsteps, I take the offense for you — not as luxury — but privilege.

[Paul Hazelwood]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

[thinktank]

But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

preston Eby

But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?

Just like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.

Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?

A good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.

Isiah 45

With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:thou hast said, none seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
10 therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth:and mischief shall fall upon thee.......

I find this a consistent theme throughout that those who do wickedly reap evil, but those that do good reap goodness. So for us to be in this wicked world we must have done evil but Jesus did not do evil and came down to this world to be among thieves and robbers in order to save them who desire to partake of the glory to come.
:2c:

[micah7:9]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

:thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

But let us pursue this truth a little further, for Jesus spoke concerning the devil, that "He abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44). J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and he has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

preston Eby

But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?

Just like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.

Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?

A good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.

Isiah 45

With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:thou hast said, none seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
10 therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth:and mischief shall fall upon thee.......

I find this a consistent theme throughout that those who do wickedly reap evil, but those that do good reap goodness. So for us to be in this wicked world we must have done evil but Jesus did not do evil and came down to this world to be among thieves and robbers in order to save them who desire to partake of the glory to come.
:2c:

It can be looked at several ways,  I don't know too many people that do not find being accountable for what one does objectionable  until they want to get out of suffering the consequenses of what they have done.  LOL

However, there is also an aspect that we can contemplate and that is when our actions affect someone indirectly.   For instance I can drive a car off the road in an attempt to kill myself and then as I am doing this I strike someone else in the process,  I personally never intended to do that, I only had the thought concerning doing harm to myself.    Let's say I succeed,  some would argue that God used what I did to kill two birds with one stone.

I personally do not believe anything evil in this physical world has anything to do with Gods plan for punishment.   The law of reaping what we sow also includes being accountable for the harm we cause others.

We have the ability to choose to harm someone minding thier own business and contrary to poipular teaching it could be Mts Faithful sunday school teacher that this happened to.  Our devotion to God does not gaurantee our physical safety.

This is the fallacy,  if you remained safe, then yout good and faithful to God, if you get hurt then your have been a baddy,  it just isn't how things really work.   It is actually the pagan idea that you have to appease the angry God with sacrifice at work.

[WhiteWings]

How can you create darkness? Just by turning off the light!
.....
The initial state is light. God is light and He was before all things - eternal, omnipresent Light. Withdraw that light and there is darkness.
.

God bara/created darkness. Bara is making something out none existant materials. Darkness is 'unknown' to God so He had to create it.
God 1utzr/made light. He just 'cut off a piece of Himself

Life is a cause, death is a result, an effect of the withdrawing of life.

Basicly the same answer as above. If God is life death is unknown by Him so it has to be created.

Now, how did the devil come into this state of being a liar, never having dealt in truth, always a murderer, and one in whom there never has been any light or life? Simple! When God brought all things forth OUT OF HIMSELF, He withheld something from this being we know as the devil, caused him to lack, created a deficiency, and made him in a condition of fragmentation or separation from certain essential elements.

This makes me think of man is the image of God.
A better translation seems to be "created in the outline of" or perhaps more relevant in this topic "is the shadow of"
Shadow is darkness. We are all dark/veiled.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

But this passage says the devil is the father of all lies. If God created the devil, then God is the father of all lies, just as the father is the father of Jesus Christ, like produces like. If God cannot lie how can he father lies?

God works in mysterious ways for sure. If banning evil is His top priority why didn't He kill the serpent in the graden of Eden? The serpent just grew stronger and stronger. 4000 years later He sent His Son. To die. Why not somply kill that serpent...
Unless there are billions of serpents....

Just like the apostle Paul is the father of the epistles, doesn't mean that Saul is the father of the epistles.

But both are children of God.

Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?

If you never learn anything then the answer is yes  :winkgrin:

A good example is a soldier who joins the SAS army. The soldier joins and goes through rigorous training this training toughens him up and produces stong character, however after 20 years or so he retires. Does that mean his toughness he gained, remains with him for millions of years, or does he have to keep training to maintain or increase his strength of character. If he has to keep training it means that the training must remain.

You can ask that question in any topic.
I can just as well ask if you think it's possible that the saints that entered heaven will sin within 5 billion years.

Isiah 45

With this in context I believe this means that God creates evil for Israel and the world when they disobey him. Such as Isiah 47:10

I agree God reacts with punishment when people do the wrong things. But it's also clear people are veiled. Even Jesus said that we hav eno clue about what we are doing.
So it's not so black and white.
Using your SAS example. If the commando slaughters 20 children by the orders of his commander; who did commit evil?

[Beloved Servant]

Another problem is that if the motivating facotor about experiencing evil is to grow in character, does that mean we have to experience evil for eternity?
If you never learn anything then the answer is yes   :winkgrin:

lol.

[micah7:9]

Found this I believe it may help to understand somewhat.

Goodness is a strange thing when we consider the world where evil comes so natural, and wherein lies entropy--the second law of thermodynamics; which is, "The downward spiral of all things, living as well as inanimate, toward perpetual decay and randomness." Entropy describes a fact that takes place everywhere in the universe. It has a grip on the smallest atom to the greatest galaxy. Until an opposing force is introduced, it has an influence upon and control of all things. Put simply, entropy is the law of sin and death. It is void of the righteousness of God. But we praise Him; for with His righteous Son, the opposite law of the Spirit of Life in Him cannot and will not allow entropy to exist forever. This, of course, is one reason there is good in the world. It counteracts the evil that awards the world with so much pain, sorrow, suffering, and death. Margit once said, love is the very initiation and force that counteracts entropy. It is love that keeps the law of entropy from destroying a family. Love counteracts the natural law of sin and death. Love builds and makes strong the family, and likewise with God and the universe. His love will preserve and make it all whole.

Entropy is a mathematical factor which is a measure of the unavailable energy in a thermodynamic system. Entropy is from two Greek words, en trope.  En is our English, in, and trope means turning. Therefore, entropy is an inturning. It speaks of a selfish retaining that will not release its energy for use. Having no entropy is to have no selfishness, which a character of total availability, total spendability. People having no entropy is more rare in the world than those consumed by it who always turn inwardly and selfishly retain unto themselves. Rather freely giving, they are greedily receiving of all things. Those who are void of selfish entropy have no shadows. Their lives are open books for all to read. They do not turn away from humanity, they are not centered upon their own interests, while the lives of their families and others are sucked from them.
(From "Deadly Poison" by Elwin Roach and The Pathfinder)

[Yab Yum]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.

[jabcat]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.

Set this one aside for the moment;  Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?

Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.

Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.

Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.

Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....

Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

[micah7:9]

What is the context of Isaiah 45:7? That is the element that seems to be missing in all these discussions.

:girlheart:

The context is a declaration of God in accepting the responsibility to making crooked things straight.   That is why he cuts down evil.    :gangel:

Right. So it seems like God is not responsible for "evil" so much as a "darkness" which may be ar worst corrective and at best life-giving.

Set this one aside for the moment;  Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

----------------------------------
Amos 3:6....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?

Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.

Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.

Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear.

Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....

Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

:thumbsup: