The Problem of Evil

[shawn]

Has this been posted?

Yes.

And why is that?  BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There it is in black and white: God binds everyone over to disobedience - rebellion.  But because we are in rebellion we just can't quite believe it...

Other translations put "vanity" which is easily defined as "disposableness", "vain-ness".  Others put unbelief, like the King James.

Unbelief is different from outright rebellion.  Much different.

Unless the scriptures are inconsistent, uninspired (and hence worthless) or else unless God is a divided being, with an abundantly wicked heart - he does NOT make people sin against him.  It is a...to be blunt, very stupid...idea.

Are you looking at the right verse?

CLV
Romans 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

God locks people up in stubbornness.  Other translations say unbelief or disobedience.  It seems that if God didn't want people to rebel, He wouldn't lock them up in stubbornness...

Want is a strong word.  I believe God had to lock people into stubbornness in order to bring us to perfect perfection.

[shawn]

Legoman, did God cause the Israelites pass their children through the fire to Molech?

God did not directly cause them to do that.

But indirectly He did. 

I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:

(actually I'm performing in a local theater production and will be out for the whole night, see you later...)

If you mean God had to turn us over for a period of time to sin in order to bring perfect perfection then I believe that to be correct.  I believe people move within that...and subsequently commit many terrible sins.

[Cardinal]

willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

Excellent offering!  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Amen...  :thumbsup:

Might I preface what I am about to say...

FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions.  Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:

SECOND --- The "land of UZ" is the place where this all takes place -- Job 1:1 -- the word "UZ" is UWTS -- #5780  which is a derivitive of "UZ" --- UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) --  :declare:

Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises) YHVH  GOD! -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not... 

Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)...  :dontknow:   Advising YHVH  that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face -- Job 2:5

IOW ..."satan" suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" -- Job 2:5  -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB!  And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "GOOD")... 

:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:

So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the suggestion as well as the suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator.  And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...

Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which YHVH  Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings... GOOD and EVIL...

And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings...  as well as which brings forth the PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:

So... in conclusion...

In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a LIVING man,  while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of YHVH  for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)

God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "cursing" never takes place in this writing...

And so those who are UPRIGHT, regardless of GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him, never cursing Him for the removals of GOOD as they LIVED...

willieH  :cloud9:

:cloud9: Playing "catch up" from leaving earlier today......I can hear it...... :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

I hope you didn't take offence at the "weasel words" comment  :Sparkletooth:  :grin:

But I think our base viewpoints are so different, that discussing the problem of evil is really moot.  There are more important issues with respect to God's sovereignty that need to be studied before tackling the problem of evil.  You seem to believe:
- God is not quite all powerful/in control of everything
- I'm not sure but it seems you are not sure if God will even be able to save all people?  Keep on studying thinktank.
Given that base I can see how you would come to the conclusion you have.

Be well...
legoman

I was unwise answering your question, as too whether I believe all be saved or not, for I belive you knew that already.

Whether I come to the conclusion that God saves all, is a different topic to what we are discussing here, so I don't see why you can tie them together, as if to say hey, one part of your theory tripod is incomplete, therefore the other part will fall with it.

This is not the case, if God saves all men, it doesn't mean that he had Full control over every action, but it does mean that regardless of their current will or desire, that eventually they will come to know God and be saved, for he is a refiners fire that purges away the dross.

I see challenges that God will save all because of various time constraints and various statments of Jesus that have not been explained by universalists yet. But God is purging his people right now and the father is drawing all people to his son now.

This is the key difference between me and you, is that I believe that mans will is not pure but evil or to be more exact a mixture of good and evil, as Adam and Eve ate the tree of good and evil, and the father draws us to Jesus Christ his son, but many refuse his ways and continue their evils, while others accept christ into their lives but yet continue to rebel against righteousness. Rebellion is not Gods will, this is my position, the fact that he uses our rebellion as a tool to cause us to come back to him, does not negate the fact that we did not love God but he loved us first, that we are in fact responsible for our evil and God will deal with each of us at the day of judgment.

[jabcat]

I think Lego's saying, that a vital part of believing this; "God has shut up all to disobedience...", is this; "so that He may have mercy on all".  IMO, it's the perfect completion to His perfect plan.   :2c:

[Lefein]

On my part however, no interpretation of scripture will be believed at the cost of God's sinlessness in his actions.

[jabcat]

Another thought;  if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?  Make the rules that that's how it would be?   I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it.  What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.?  Forces beyond God's touch or control? 

[jabcat]

There's a scrip about God setting the boundaries, telling nature what to do (the song "My Redeemer Lives" is at least s/w based on it).  Anyone know that verse?  I'm at work, need to go right now...I.e., doesn't God make the rules, set up the way things work...at the VERY least?

[Lefein]

didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?

No.  The target has always existed, it is as God is; "I AM" - the target is, if it were all boiled down...God.  He is the target, of whom we miss when we sin.  God is unchanging, not even God can change himself.

[Paul Hazelwood]

RE: "robot mode" - But that's what you are implying.  If not then forget it.

It's not, so ok.

[jabcat]

didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?

No.  The target has always existed, it is as God is; "I AM" - the target is, if it were all boiled down...God.  He is the target, of whom we miss when we sin.  God is unchanging, not even God can change himself.

Scrips?

EDIT ****Actually, I want to modify my point/question here.  I also believe God, "the target" has always existed.  What I really mean are, where are the scrips about the rest of it, that the darkness "just was", and that God didn't/can't do anything about it? 

On my part however, no interpretation of scripture will be believed at the cost of God's sinlessness in his actions.

Are you able to consider that God can do things without that making Him sinful?   

[shawn]

Another thought;  if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?  Make the rules that that's how it would be?   I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it.  What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.?  Forces beyond God's touch or control?

I believe in order for us to know God, to know holiness and to become the perfect perfection of his creation God set things in motion.  His motion was to turn us over to futility...basically life outside of him.  In that futility certain things had to be...in order for us to become complete.  One of those things is experience sin...death.  He also made the plans to deliver us.  Why would God place things in motion only to save us from them?  It has to be the journey has lessons and is the path he uses for knowledge and purification.  Do I believe God directs us to sin?  No.  But, I believe he shut himself off from him for a season.  In that we do what death does in order that we can find life.

[jabcat]

Another thought;  if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?  Make the rules that that's how it would be?   I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it.  What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.?  Forces beyond God's touch or control?

I believe in order for us to know God, to know holiness and to become the perfect perfection of his creation God set things in motion.  His motion was to turn us over to futility...basically life outside of him.  In that futility certain things had to be...in order for us to become complete.  One of those things is experience sin...death.  He also made the plans to deliver us.  Why would God place things in motion only to save us from them?  It has to be the journey has lessons and is the path he uses for knowledge and purification.  Do I believe God directs us to sin?  No.  But, I believe he shut himself off from him for a season.  In that we do what death does in order that we can find life.

With maybe a little subtlety here or there (that I'm personally not completely sure about), I see very closely to this Shawn. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

But indirectly He did. 

I'm sure that may cause a firestorm of comments so I will step out for a while :winkgrin:

No firestorm here, first, indirectly causing anything does not get God off the moral hook unless we understand the nature of how that is.   The problem is that we can get accused of making God in our image, yet, that isn't true, it is a factor of knowledge that we can know what the image of God actually is.

We arrest Mob bosses who indicrectly are involved in evil deeds.   I guess God could be the ultimate mob boss and since mankind cannot arrest him or stop him we then are subject to whatever God wants to call anything.  At that point we cannot trust that we can truly define the line between what is righteous and unrighteous.

[Lefein]

Jabcat:

Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"Be...perfect" "As Father [God] is perfect"

God is perfect, if God is perfect then God is Perfect, and perfection, like love has always been.  For perfection, like love - is God.

Are you able to consider that God can do things without that making Him sinful?   

It is impossible for him to work iniquity in any way, express it in any way, directly, or indirectly, without it existing in his heart - and existing there abundantly.

Out of the mouth of God, his heart speaks abundantly - just as our mouths speak abundantly what is in our heart.  Is God a divided house that with his heart he wills good, but his mouth expresses sin into being?  Is it not lying if the all knowing God, who knows his own infinite heart fully say something contrary to what he is thinking?

Anything God does, is tied directly to his being - his character.  This includes his creative acts.  As a man thinks, so is he.  We could say; As God thinks, so is He.  A man expresses what he is.  So God expresses what He is.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Another thought;  if darkness is not a 'creation', but only a "natural result" of the absence of (God's) light; and if sin is missing the target, in terms of "our shot" ends up missing the target and ending up out in darkness somewhere, a distance away from God....didn't (S)someone still have to set it up that way?  Make the rules that that's how it would be?   I personally doubt it was an accident, or some sort of "natural law", totally outside God's ability to control it.  What is nature, natural law, "the rules of the universe", etc.?  Forces beyond God's touch or control?

No,  if God has a nature and God does not change then it is the nature of things and was never set up that way, it is how it is.

[jabcat]

Well, I think it's pretty apparent what both of your understandings and opinions are.  That's fine, talking about it gives us at least a chance to learn something from each other.  I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it.  Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have;  our piece of understanding of a great big picture.

I know I still have things to learn about this.  I'm just not 100% completely settled on every minute detail of this subject, but one thing I think I know is; the answers won't be found inside of me, in my own thought processes and reasoning capacity;  especially with the carnal aspects of my mind. 

I will continue to contemplate the questions and thoughts I've presented, but hopefully mostly will continue to search the scriptures and ask God for wisdom and to trust Him more and more;  otherwise I may find myself once again arguing against God Himself. 

:handshake: 

[Lefein]

 :Peace2:  :handshake:

[shawn]

I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it.  Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have;  our piece of understanding of a great big picture.

:thumbsup:

[willieH]

Well if that is the case, and Angels do not know between good and evil, then it is perfectly reasonable for Satan to have fallen due to his own ignorance.

"My people perish for a lack of knowledge" And so dying Satan died!  Being absent of God in his iniquity.

Without going into a drawn out reply...

It is only conjecture that evil was known by anyone or anything but GOD, prior to the creation of this realm.

It is your perception (common to Christianity)... thinking "satan" is a "being" (which is omnipresent, which credits a being other than GOD as omnipresent) ...rather than the principality of ADVERSITY (which is omnipresent for it is KNOWN by GOD)... 

ADVERSITY is part of an ETERNAL Knowledge for without ADVERSITY, EVIL cannot be known... something that is ETERNAL never "dies"...  In reference to "satan", where you would use the words "he, him" etc.. I would use the word "it". :nod:

:Peace:

willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

Not a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.

I certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.

[micah7:9]

Not a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.

I certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.

What you call its presence?

[Lefein]

He is finite.

[micah7:9]

He is finite.

And its limits?

[Lefein]

I do not know his limits, only that he is finite.  I've never communed, or sought to study, or excessively looked at the Devil to know, and it would be dangerous to try.