The Problem of Evil

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank...  :winkgrin:

Maybe there is something to what you are saying, but I take this simple idea.

Gods will = To do good, to give life, to bless, for his thoughts towards us are good

Our will= good or evil

(1) --- Where (in the WORD) does it SAY, ...That "God's WILL = to do good, to give life, to bless, for His thoughts towards us are good" ???????

It is without a DOUBT that the WILL of God contains within it, ...and is shown to be IN WRATH --- toward the human race and its manifest behaviors... and that WRATH is availed on many occasions toward men, often unto HIS OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!  ...Several times He has enacted HARSH JUDGMENTS toward man... and is seen to be (not emotionally, but righteously) ANGRY toward man!  :dontknow:


(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"  ?????
 
The WORD notes that the condition of the HEART OF MAN = DESPARATELY WICKED!!! --- ABOVE ALL THINGS!!!  -- Jer 17:9 -- Where do you get "GOOD" out of "DESPARATELY WICKED -- ABOVE ALL THINGS" ???

As always, you are welcome to your present observations... but these statements have no foundation in the WORD of God...

It is HIS PURPOSE that is the on-going "AGENDA" here... and IN that PURPOSE, and by your own admission... He uses EVIL within the processing of that AGENDA in the realm of the Finite... which shall end up for GOOD...  :dontknow:  Which in fact IS His PURPOSE for ALL in the realm of Eternity...

willieH  :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

Thank you WillieH, I cannot express myself in such a way. I seem to be more abrupt and suttle in my responses. The God that I have put my trust and believe in, has never been not in total control of His purpose and plan.

[thinktank]

Jeremiah 29:11   

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.


Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.



(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.

[CHB]

Jeremiah 29:11   

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.


Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.



(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.

So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?

CHB

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank...  :happygrin:

Jeremiah 29:11   

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

God obviously LOVES us and PEACE is the end result of His agenda for ALL of us



Thereby DEMOTING the WORD of truth which notes in TEN places that PARTIALITY is NOT GOOD, and that YHVH is NOT PARTIAL to one or the other -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21  -- (& 8 others)

That said... in the processing of the AGENDA of GOD is WRATH, which is ORDAINED to come against us to display to ALL that the misbehaviors which EXACT that WRATH are NOT ACCEPTABLE:

Rom 9:16-22 -- notes that MERCY is not DUE to the behaviors of Men -- of themselves rather, from YHVH only -- verse 16 -- for they are unable to RESIST the WILL of YHVH which SHALL find FAULT in those behaviors -- verse 19 -- which OCCURED according to HIS WILL!  And indeed HE is the MAKER -- verse 21 -- of the things considered DISHONORABLE which are ...FITTED to DESTRUCTION -- verse 22


Jer 28:14 -- And I will be found of you saith YHVH and I WILL TURN YOU [you wont "turn yourself by your own doing"] away from YOUR CAPTIVITY, and I WILL GATHER YOU [you won't gather yourself by your own doing"] from ALL nations, and from ALL PLACES whither -- I HAVE DRIVEN YOU [you did not go into CAPTIVITY of your own], saith YHVH and I WILL BRING YOU ...AGAIN [you were once NOT IN CAPTIVITY] into the place whence --- I CAUSED YOU to be CARRIED AWAY

GREAT WRATH is found within the CAPTIVITY of BONDAGE...

Do you think the Children of Israel, while in BONDAGE to EGYPT, were having the "time of their lives", Tank?  :mshock:  Or is the TRUTH, ...that there was there MUCH SUFFERING and TORMENT endured in it, as well as UNJUST treatment brought against them during the EXPERIENCE of that CAPTIVITY?  :dontknow:  Many DIED while in that CAPTIVITY, did they not?  Many of those deaths were unjust and BRUTAL as well... and yet... YHVH by His own WORD, ...sent them into this CAPTIVITY.

There is PURPOSE in CAPTIVITY, or it would not EXIST.  And there is NOT PEACE within the moments of CAPTIVITY, for it is PURPOSED to display  FREEDOM, ...its MOST WONDERFUL and LOVING OPPOSITE!

Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.

FIRST --- No one "TOLD" me ANY of what I believe, Tank... I have researched the WORD for 34 years, and have gained what I "believe" from that personal search... :nod:


SECOND --- where is the Scriptural SUBSTANCE which establishes these words, Tank... [mod edit) When the WORD says there are NONE RIGHTEOUS -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12

[mod edit] the only difference between you (I include my own experience in this example) and Hitler, is that GOD decided to occupy YOU and your doings (to the degree that He has), for HIS PURPOSE in the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... in Hitlers case, ...He decided for the most part, NOT to "occupy"...  :dontknow:

(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.

[mod edit]

I CLEARLY requested that you note ---  Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

[mod edit]willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him.  You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean.  Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way.  You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.

God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him. 

God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.

Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations.  He is the truth, and He is the Life.  Live therefore, because you are in Life.  You are also in Truth.  So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you.  In Jesus' name - Amen.

[thinktank]

Jeremiah 29:11   

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.


Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.



(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.

So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?

CHB

It doesnt say God planted it specifically, but does say every tree that is planted was good to eat. Then it adds also the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of knowledge also.

I tend to belive that God planted the tree of knowledge, but im not 100 percent certain.

But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.

[WhiteWings]

But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.

I think you will agree with me that Father knew even before Adam and Eve were created, they would eat of that tree.
Then I only can conclude He planted it for a reason or didn't remove it for a reason.
So imo because knew billions year before creation they would eat from that tree He could never have intended to let them eat at a more mature age. Simply because He knew that never would happen.

an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations.

The had no knowledge of good and evil. That what the what teh tree was for. Without eating from it they would never 'mature' and by eating it they..... well you know the story.

[Daniel33]

I believe we are here on this earth to learn and develop, if the earth was all unicorns, waterfalls and endless golden fields we sure wouldn't learn much. [edit]  if we didn't have the chance to do bad choices then existance would be pretty meaningless. Could also be other reasons, like we are being shown the reasons why we shouldn't act against God and probably lots of other reasons.

I believe we will all be held accountable for our sins and wrongdoings when the day of judgement comes, and will recieve proper corrective "treatment".

Also if God didn't plan the tree of good and evil, or didn't intend for it to be planted, and if he didn't know Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit then he wouldn't be all powerfull and all knowing. I believe he is, and I believe everything that has happened was meant to happen. [edit], but God already knows what choices we will make.

[thinktank]

I think you will agree with me that Father knew even before Adam and Eve were created, they would eat of that tree.
Then I only can conclude He planted it for a reason or didn't remove it for a reason.
So imo because knew billions year before creation they would eat from that tree He could never have intended to let them eat at a more mature age. Simply because He knew that never would happen
whitewings

Depends on how you see God, if God is merely writing a story script, then your position is very strong. But I beleive that God is flexible and working in creation even now, for he is the God of I am and works with us every day and works around his word. E.g the book of revelation paints a pretty bleak future, but if God is present, things do not have to be as bleak as they seem, he can change things around. e.g the beast forces all the world to worship him. God is so flexible that he can change things so that the world is only one country, so if people ask him, "Hey I thought all the world would worship him"
He can reply "All the world did, the rest of the people belong to me" .But if people are continually being evil then God can use the scripture so that all people worship the beast. Just a few ways in which God can work around his word and be present in creation, guiding them to salvation.

[CHB]

Jeremiah 29:11   

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.


Just one scripture, there are many others, like this. Whoever told you that God wants one to suffer evil, has no idea about the true loving heart of God. The sufferings and persecutions of the righteous are brought upon by wicked people, not by God, unless God desires to chastize his servants for their iniquity, which is the wrath you speak of.



(2) --- Where does it SAY, ...that --- "OUR WILL = Good or Evil"

I got it from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Surely this fruit has been passed on to humanity, within our dna or something. I think every person grows up with desires to do good or evil. God helps us choose good and empower us.

So where did the tree of knowledge of good and evil come from? Doesn't it say that God planted the tree of good and evil in the garden (Gen. 2:9) ?

CHB

It doesnt say God planted it specifically, but does say every tree that is planted was good to eat. Then it adds also the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of knowledge also.

I tend to belive that God planted the tree of knowledge, but im not 100 percent certain.

But lets say he did, he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of it. It seems the tree was there for a purpose, perhaps at a later date when Adam and Eve were more mature, then God would have allowed them to eat it. But here is the thing, an immature man with theknowledge of evil, will use that knowedge for evil, but a mature man, who has knowledge of evil, will overcome his temptations. I think perhaps Adam and Eve were supposed to have eaten from this tree when they were more mature.

Hi.

It sounds to me like he planted the tree oF good and evil.

(Gen. 2:9) And out of the ground MADE THE LORD TO GROW EVERY TREE THAT IS PLEASANT TO THE SIGHT.. {which Eve said of the tree of good and evil}.. AND GOOD FOR FOOD;.. {which Eve said of the tree of good and evil}..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

You can't get any thing else out of this verse.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Depends on how you see God, if God is merely writing a story script, then your position is very strong. But I beleive that God is flexible and working in creation even now, for he is the God of I am and works with us every day and works around his word.

For me that are 2 different things TT.
I fully agree God is working in creation right now (and all years since creation). So on that point we agree.
But I also think it is according to script.
If God wrote the script He obviously agrees with it.
If the script is writing itself then God at the very least knew how the scrip will develop and by not altering the script He accepted it.
And even if He alters things He knew 10 billion years ago that for example He is going to alter something in 2 hours and 3 seconds from now.

^YLTRev 13
8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

TCB  Rev 13:8 Then everybody who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughted since the foundation of the world.

What does that verse mean for you TT?
For me it means Father and Son made a plan even before creation began (begun?)
Jesus wasn't killed then. The plan (=fact) of His crucifixion was agreed upon then. The script was agreed and written.
The death of Jesus was not Father adapting to human behavior.
:2c:

[thinktank]

Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him.  You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean.  Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way.  You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.

God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him. 

God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.

Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations.  He is the truth, and He is the Life.  Live therefore, because you are in Life.  You are also in Truth.  So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you.  In Jesus' name - Amen.

God bless you brother, your words are a blessing to me. You have a very bright future ahead of you, the fear of the father is within you.

[mod edit]

[micah7:9]

Quote from a sister from another site. "Jesus answered this question in the following which might apply :

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Satan isn't like the yin and yang with a little bit of good in him. NO. Satan is by nature, an instrument of God Who is Good. God uses evil for His good plans and purposes.

Satan has no claim on anything that is Good of God. Likewise, us humans, have no claim on God for anything good that we are or do! All good is of and from God. That applies to Satan too.

Blessings

[CHB]

Be encouraged Thinktank, Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in him.  You have the Father, and in his eyes you have been made righteous and clean.  Your father in Heaven is your Life, your Truth, and your Way.  You are a son of God, made holy, and taken forth out of the wicked world by the blood of the Lamb, for you are in the world but you are not of the world, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God which is peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost.

God is with you, God is Love, Love is with you, and you are in Love, and full of him. 

God is with you, God is Truth, Truth is with you, and you are in Truth, and full of him.

Christ came to give life, and life in abundance...not doctrines, nor interpretations.  He is the truth, and He is the Life.  Live therefore, because you are in Life.  You are also in Truth.  So be fruitful my beloved brother, you are a mighty man of valour for the Lord is in you.  In Jesus' name - Amen.

Hi Lefein,

I don't believe I have read where any one has said that Christ isn't in thinktank, or that he isn't a a son of God. No one has said that God wasn't with thinktank or that God didn't love him or love wasn't in him, or with him, or any of those things.  Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like you are telling thinktank that this is what we have been saying?  Just because I don't agree with a person doesn't mean that I am thinking all the things you have implied.

Paul was always warning the brethern about different things and he disagreed with Peter about things but he didn't tell them that Christ wasn't in them, nor loved them, nor were they sons of God.  Is this what you were thinking, because I haven't read that any one else said this?

Just the way I understood your post.

CHB

[Lefein]

Blessings don't need to be dissected friend.

:)

[jabcat]

I've decided to permanently lock this thread.  Also, I believe that when it goes indepth such as this thread did, that at some point it's just arguing freewill/all sovereign (against forum guidelines) by other names, and bad things start happening.    I believe we can mention these issues sort of in passing, but to dwell directly on them for an extended period of time obviously doesn't work.  We've potentially lost one of our longest-term members due to the things that occurred in this particular thread, and almost lost a couple of other members over it. 

In the future such discussion will be held to very brief interchanges, typically mixed within other threads as it comes up;  but for indepth exploration/info/review, people can be referred to this thread and others, such as the following;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/i_make_peace_and_create_evil_not_any_more._6497.0.html