The Problem of Evil

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You ever the read the account in the OT where someone offers to be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophet and God grants him permission to do so? Was the flood, evil or good? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? He created the smithy, as a tool. Without darkness, we would never know the difference between light and darkness. It serves a purpose, a purpose He intended. My :2c: Blessings....

[CHB]

Here is another article by Ray titled The Real Orgin of sin and evil.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Nothing in this world happens without a cause, reason, or purpose and God is all of these. There is always a lesson to be learned by someone with every thing that happens whether it be good or bad.

CHB



CHB

[jabcat]

:cloud9: You ever the read the account in the OT where someone offers to be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophet and God grants him permission to do so? Was the flood, evil or good? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? He created the smithy, as a tool. Without darkness, we would never know the difference between light and darkness. It serves a purpose, a purpose He intended. My :2c: Blessings....

Amen Card.  Both out of the same lump.  It's obviously more than our carnal minds can comprehend.  I struggle with it as well, but only humbling ourselves before the Father, accepting His will, can we "see".   Otherwise, we fight against Him, thinking we are doing good, i.e., calling good evil and evil good.  :2c:  Been there, done it - still do.

[Lefein]

My issue has boiled down to a simple point.

If the Heavenly Father is the Father of Lies...then we have a bit of an issue that mere sweeping beneath the rug will not fix.  We are to trust God, and it is impossible to trust a liar.  If he is the Father of Lies, then he is..well..the ultimate liar.

This simply cannot be, it blows a large crack in the foundation of All things.

[WhiteWings]

Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.

[micah7:9]

Psa 139:12  Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Dan 2:22  He, revealeth the deep things, and the hidden,—knoweth what is in the darkness, and, light, with him, doth dwell.

[Lefein]

Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.

If the Lord's ways are evil, then there is a terror in the universe the likes of which none are safe.  In this life, or the next.

I am to worship a good deity, not a deity who is divided, a dualistic bi-polar being.  How will I know he does not intend evil for me?  And if he is the Father of Lies, there is no trust that can be given - not in scriptures that he wrote, nor in words that he speaks.  In essence, the Devil is but a lesser reflection of the True God who would be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient evil.

This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable?  Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?

If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.

[CHB]

This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable?  Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?

If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.

Lefein,

Your words trouble me greatly.

CHB

[rosered]

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?  :sigh:

[shawn]

My issue has boiled down to a simple point.

If the Heavenly Father is the Father of Lies...then we have a bit of an issue that mere sweeping beneath the rug will not fix.  We are to trust God, and it is impossible to trust a liar.  If he is the Father of Lies, then he is..well..the ultimate liar.

This simply cannot be, it blows a large crack in the foundation of All things.

And we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies.  Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error.  It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding.  Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers.  Rely not on your own understanding.  I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take.  But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions.  I know some believe they indeed have it figured out.  But, I am not one of those people. 

Maybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't.  And just possibly that is true faith.  Blessed is he who believes without seeing.  I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand.  His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it.  I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do.  God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.

[thinktank]

This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable?  Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?

If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.

Lefein,

Your words trouble me greatly.

CHB

why should they trouble you? You should rejoice that God is good.

Why is it that people get affraid that someone says "hey the scriptures say God is good and there is no darkness in him"

A truth that describes the very essence of Gods being, that he is love.

Is it because the darkness within is exposed?

[Lefein]

Lefein,

Your words trouble me greatly.

CHB

Why should they disturb you?  I am to know my Father, and if knowing him means finding out if he is indeed genuine, and trustworthy so as to ensure my faith is strong in the face of tougher questions...then so be it.

I shall be a good Berean who searches for Truth.

People here are saying that God invented;created evil, and is the source of it, that he is the progenitor of darkness, and the maker of wickedness, the designer of sin, and as such I have carried that conclusion to its application.

If he is indeed the creator of evil - then he is the father of lies.  There can be no other conclusion, lest we pick and choose from scriptures.

I am seeking to understand so that I can move on, and seeking to secure wisdom that I may not perish due to a lack of knowledge.

There is no evil in my goals by seeking to exclude "God is Evil" from the list of his character aspects.  To know my father, is to seek to know his ways, otherwise what sort of son am I if I have no interest in his character?  How can I reflect his character, and be an expression of him, if I don't even know what his character is?

If he is evil and corrupt, then all is lost.  It is my hope to find that he is not.  It is my hope to delve deeper into who God is, so that I might express him, and be like him in truth, and genuine honesty of character - to be like God himself, not to be as Tradition says he is; Tradition can even be found amongst the circles of this assembly.

If he is the father of evil, then to express the character of God, is to express evil...and we have major problems with the universe.

If he is not, then I have nothing to worry about.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

I have not blasphemed Yahweh in any way, by seeking to divide Truth from Tradition, even the traditions of men here.  Tradition does not necessarily mean that it comes from the church, or churchianity.

And we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies.  Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error.  It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding.  Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers.  Rely not on your own understanding.  I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take.  But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions.  I know some believe they indeed have it figured out.  But, I am not one of those people.

I can conclude a better thing than God is Evil, or I have no hope of understanding.  I can conclude perhaps, that since the Heavenly Father cannot be the Father of Lies, then the ultimate conclusion is that he is not the author of Sin; Evil.

Maybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't.  And just possibly that is true faith.  Blessed is he who believes without seeing.  I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand.  His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it.  I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do.  God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.

It is perhaps a matter of prayer for me then.  It is not a matter of approving of what God does, or my approval.  But it is a matter of existence itself.  In what sort of universe do I live?  One whose foundation is Sin itself, or one whose foundation is Righteousness and without Sin at all?

Some people here, even unknowingly imply that the foundation is Sin, by attributing God with the authorship of evil.  This is what I have to combat, even if I am unorthodox in doing so.

Especially if anyone plans on trying to show God's character to the Atheist, or the unbeliever.

[micah7:9]

Or maybe "only" how you thought His ways are.

If the Lord's ways are evil, then there is a terror in the universe the likes of which none are safe.  In this life, or the next.

I am to worship a good deity, not a deity who is divided, a dualistic bi-polar being.  How will I know he does not intend evil for me?  And if he is the Father of Lies, there is no trust that can be given - not in scriptures that he wrote, nor in words that he speaks.  In essence, the Devil is but a lesser reflection of the True God who would be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient evil.

This is the problem that is before us, is God truly good, trustworthy, and viable?  Or is he just a sinner like the rest of us - wicked, yet above us being the biggest sinner of them all, and the most powerful?

If he is the Father of Lies, having invented them - then he is a sinner by default, and has broken the full law that he himself laid down.

Mat 5:45  That ye may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens: because, his sun, he maketh arise on evil and good, and sendeth rain, on just and unjust.
Evil is a tool used by the Lord, believe me when I say that He will uses it for the good of His children; obedient and disobedint.

[CHB]

Lefein,

Your words trouble me greatly.

CHB

Why should they disturb you?  I am to know my Father, and if knowing him means finding out if he is indeed genuine, and trustworthy so as to ensure my faith is strong in the face of tougher questions...then so be it.

I shall be a good Berean who searches for Truth.

People here are saying that God invented;created evil, and is the source of it, that he is the progenitor of darkness, and the maker of wickedness, the designer of sin, and as such I have carried that conclusion to its application.

If he is indeed the creator of evil - then he is the father of lies.  There can be no other conclusion, lest we pick and choose from scriptures.

I am seeking to understand so that I can move on, and seeking to secure wisdom that I may not perish due to a lack of knowledge.

There is no evil in my goals by seeking to exclude "God is Evil" from the list of his character aspects.  To know my father, is to seek to know his ways, otherwise what sort of son am I if I have no interest in his character?  How can I reflect his character, and be an expression of him, if I don't even know what his character is?

If he is evil and corrupt, then all is lost.  It is my hope to find that he is not.  It is my hope to delve deeper into who God is, so that I might express him, and be like him in truth, and genuine honesty of character - to be like God himself, not to be as Tradition says he is; Tradition can even be found amongst the circles of this assembly.

If he is the father of evil, then to express the character of God, is to express evil...and we have major problems with the universe.

If he is not, then I have nothing to worry about.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

I have not blasphemed Yahweh in any way, by seeking to divide Truth from Tradition, even the traditions of men here.  Tradition does not necessarily mean that it comes from the church, or churchianity.

And we know our heavenly Father is not the Father of lies.  Therefore any human logic leading us to that conclusion is in error.  It's not a fault in God it's a fault in our own limited understanding.  Until we start from the conclusion (the truth we know as fact) we can not come up with the correct answers.  Rely not on your own understanding.  I know where you are Lefein and I know it's a journey you have to take.  But, if yours is anything like mine it can only lead to one of two places...either you conclude God is evil and corrupt or you conclude that our limited understanding of finite things is unable to draw correct conclusions.  I know some believe they indeed have it figured out.  But, I am not one of those people.

I can conclude a better thing than God is Evil, or I have no hope of understanding.  I can conclude perhaps, that since the Heavenly Father cannot be the Father of Lies, then the ultimate conclusion is that he is not the author of Sin; Evil.

Maybe just maybe that "figuring it out" is realizing you can't.  And just possibly that is true faith.  Blessed is he who believes without seeing.  I don't have to see, nor do I have to understand.  His fingerprint in my life is unmistakable and I can't deny it.  I will let God do what God does and I will do what God has asked me to do.  God doesn't need my approval nor do I need to approve to find relationship.

It is perhaps a matter of prayer for me then.  It is not a matter of approving of what God does, or my approval.  But it is a matter of existence itself.  In what sort of universe do I live?  One whose foundation is Sin itself, or one whose foundation is Righteousness and without Sin at all?

Some people here, even unknowingly imply that the foundation is Sin, by attributing God with the authorship of evil.  This is what I have to combat, even if I am unorthodox in doing so.

Especially if anyone plans on trying to show God's character to the Atheist, or the unbeliever.

Lefein,

I do understand the questions you have.  God knows all about good and evil and if we are to be like him shouldn't we know both good and evil too? Shouldn't we have to experience, see, and come to know the consequences of what evil can bring? How would we know what evil was if we never experienced it?

I guess it is just the way you were presenting your questions that make me cringe when I read your post. I guess when you say "if God created siin, and evil, that that makes him evil, a liar, sinful". That is my problem.  In a way you have judged God already to be the things you are asking about, because he did create evil and all that is. Where did any of it come from if not from him?  Is there a spirit or anything else out there that is doing all these things other than God? 

I pray that you will find your answers.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?

Amen.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?

That's simple, it is the will of God. God gives his creatures choices, the devil sinned from the begining. Did God test the devil as he tested Adam and Eve?

Darkness is the absence of light, it has no properties. Sin is absence of Gods perfect will, hence the term missing the mark.

If God created evil, then that must be because he is evil. All theft, murderings, lying, cursing, originate from him since he created everything. But how can the, truth, the way and the life produce lies?

It is hard to grasp this thing, but every true child of God knows that what I just speak is the truth, but cannot explain why as to why does sin exist, it is easier to say that God created evil much simpler to the carnal mind, even though we know this is not scripturally true.

[Lefein]

I do understand the questions you have.  God knows all about good and evil and if we are to be like him shouldn't we know both good and evil too? Shouldn't we have to experience, see, and come to know the consequences of what evil can bring? How would we know what evil was if we never experienced it?

I can understand a nuclear missile without creating it myself.  I can understand murder without strangling a man.

I guess it is just the way you were presenting your questions that make me cringe when I read your post. I guess when you say "if God created siin, and evil, that that makes him evil, a liar, sinful". That is my problem.  In a way you have judged God already to be the things you are asking about, because he did create evil and all that is. Where did any of it come from if not from him?  Is there a spirit or anything else out there that is doing all these things other than God?

If he is the author of sin, or source of sin, then he is a sinner.  It is plain and simple, now is he the author and source of sin, or not?  If he isn't the root of sin, then he is not a sinner, if he is the root of sin, then the universe is doomed.  What say you?

The sting of Death is sin, sin is caused by death, evil is sin, death is the absence of Life, and therefore sin, and evil are the absence of Life; God is Life, so evil is caused by the absence of God.  Evil is not an entity that can be created, it is an absence formed by the removal of a countering agent.  Darkness is the absence of light, not the antithesis of it.

So here we get to a situation...Is God the Author of Sin?  Is he the root of it?  If he made it, then it is all his fault, not ours, and we deserve no punishment at all - yet that is certainly no comfort, because then we are left with the unchanging God who is the Father of Lies.  Does God lie?  Never.

How can God be the author of evil, if he cannot bring forth lies?  It is impossible.

In the beginning, was GOD........nothing else. So where did anything else come from if not from His creating?

Is God the author, creator, progenitor of lies, and lying?  If so - he is the Father of Lies.  If not - then why do you say it came from him?

[Paul Hazelwood]

lefein, keep up the questioning,  it is good to question and explore and discover, don't let anyone ever stop you.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Creating it and BEING it, are not the same thing.....He created a mountain, but He is NOT that mountain. He created the darkness, but He is not that darkness, yet it says He dwells in the thick darkness. Look it up.....do a word study on darkness, pavillion, and tabernacle in the Hebrew. Blessings....

[Lefein]

Is he the author, creator, progenitor, maker, producer, designer of lies?  ...or not?

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Creating it and BEING it, are not the same thing.....He created a mountain, but He is NOT that mountain. He created the darkness, but He is not that darkness, yet it says He dwells in the thick darkness. Look it up.....do a word study on darkness, pavillion, and tabernacle in the Hebrew. Blessings....

:bigGrin: But creating something proceeds from the imagination, is Gods imagination evil?

When an evil inventor has murerous thoughts, he invented the sword to kill

Another good inventor created a sword but to protect his familly.

What if someone stole the good creators sword to do that which is evil.

So when God creates a lie, how can he imagine such a thing if he himself is Truth, ponder on that  :cloud9:

When I am good I imagine good things, but when I am evil I imagine evil things.

Alas how can an unstable mind of God, be still.

[Paul Hazelwood]

There is a difference between creating evil, when as a limitless being he didn't have to  and evil being a byproduct of a path that must happen as the nature of things and is something that God cannot change.  God can take responsibility for evil existing based on knowing that the path to perfection was set in motion by him or simply as a result of Gods existance.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.

Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.

God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[thinktank]

:cloud9: The darkness in and of itself is "neutral", which is why He pronounced it good, even very good. The difference is the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. His motive is pure, His ways are not our ways. It's a tool, which implies something being USED, to an expected end.

Let's take a murdering spirit, for example. UN-righteous use is killing your brother. Righteous use is using that to put Christ to death on the cross, that thru Him all men might be saved. Only God can use evil to destroy evil.

God knew and said that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil (wrong motives) continually. He knew that, not only because He knows the thoughts of men, but because He created their hearts to begin with. We could not know what evil was, unless we experienced it, and we couldn't experience it had we stayed in heaven as we were, with Him from the foundation of the world. My  :2c: Blessings.....

But what you are saying is very different from before. What you said above is that God has knowledge of both good and evil, this is truth and he even put this knowledge in the garden of Eden or at least another possobility is that the devil put that tree in there, because Ezekiel said that he was in the garden of eden.
But whether God put the tree there or the serpent, this is simply saing that God shared this knowledge of evil with man, it does not mean that God created evil, which is an entirely different concept altogether.