The Problem of Evil

[jabcat]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

[Paul Hazelwood]

We are so sure that when it comes to other verses that there is a mistranslation when it comes to the bibles we read, but this one issue it then certainly must be as we read.    Once you open the door to religion and theologian error then it ALL is suspect.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].


Yes, the Lord sure does all those things.

Without any translation, the hebrew word is 'ra', which has definitions listed in WW's post #189.

I'm not talking about the hebrew word ra.

That's the word in scriptures, translated 'evil'.  I really try to not assume, but since you quoted that scripture, and the topic is the problem of evil... but maybe you're talking about something else, then.

Yes I know, and I was showing the verse can show God cuts down evil.   Evil exists, I have never made issue with that.

[jabcat]

Ah, OK, I missed that.  Thanks for clarifying.

[jabcat]

Again guys, I honestly am not taking an absolute stance on "I know everything this means, and God made sin".  I am saying though, the scrips say much about God creating, sending, using evil.  I have to accept that.  But then what all does it mean?    :thinking:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow. 

[Lefein]

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

I'd say this is were calamity comes in. 

Again guys, I honestly am not taking an absolute stance on "I know everything this means, and God made sin".  I am saying though, the scrips say much about God creating, sending, using evil.  I have to accept that.  But then what all does it mean?

It might be settled if we understood the old Biblical Hebrew's way of speech, and phrases.  We know you aren't taking an absolute stance, and as such we aren't hitting you with hammers for it. ^^

I cannot honestly say I know for certain, all I know is that scripture must interpret scripture; IE; consistency - and God being good, means that God cannot do evil by proxy, or directly.  It is a common sense sort of statement on that end, if I am a doctor who swore to do no harm, I can't poison my patients - though it might hurt a little to reset a broken leg.

Speculatively speaking, it may be about the difference between pain, and harm; both are however the noun of Hurt, and hurt, but both are completely different in their truth of being, despite the facts surrounding them that produce a "mask of similarity".

If I might ponder the issue of creating evil, sending evil, and using evil...I don't know, nor do I have an exact idea; but here is a hypothesis...

A man makes a knife, and intends to kill his brother with it.  This is evil, and the knife is an evil tool.

A doctor comes along, and finds the knife, and finds that its design is perfect for getting to bones that have healed improperly, and so uses the very same knife design to further Health.

The doctor finds that his patient has committed serious crimes against his town, so he being also the town mayor by strike of coincidence - sends a man with the knife wielded by police to execute justice.

Another example, and though some grow tired of this example, it is only because it is a so readily understandable example; God created intimacy but he didn't create adultery.

___ ___ ___

Likewise, Paul makes a good point.  Much of the "sending" is merely the execution of inevitability.  We reap what we sow, without God's help to clear our fields.  But because God is just, he will allow, provide permission for, "send" justice our way, the knife...if you will.

If I drive on the wrong side of the road, why should God protect me from a crash for breaking traffic laws?  Why should I expect it?  Providing of course, that I'm making no attempt to get back on the right side of the road.

[jabcat]

I agree God set up that law.  But I personally don't believe He was ignorant of what would happen, or, incapable of redirecting things if He wanted to.

I believe then those consequences come from somewhere, as in "a creation of, by (S)someone".  I don't believe anything came into being by accident, and I really don't know if satan is able to create anything.  I don't think I've seen convincing scripture on that, indicating he can/does.

I think you MAY NOT agree from some things you've posted, but I think at the very least God knew what would happen, yet He still set up that law.  If one doesn't believe God knew beforehand, I think that would provide [at least a perceived] "workaround".  But I don't know anywhere that's supported scripturally, in fact I believe there's much indicating otherwise, but off the cuff can't quote it...

We've talked about this for years on TM, and it just ain't settled yet  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

P.S.  You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right?   :bigGrin:

[Lefein]

Satan as far as I know, can only pervert, or make void.  Not "create".  He might seemingly invent, though it is only a bastardisation.

Like in a sci-fi film, taking a human and subjecting him to all sorts of irradiating terrors, twisting him, and misshaping him, the scientist may believe he has created a new creature, but he has not - he has merely created an abomination, a twisted misshapen form of what was, and still is human, and was meant to be human, but is now a mutated human.

P.S.  You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right?

Absolute, because it is what we believe.  And we don't have to be the unbiased moderator. ^_^

__ __ __

As for God knowing evil beforehand, that is something best described by a comparison chart which I will perhaps make later.

[jabcat]

Oh, I have many opinions.  But I've been wrong so much that I need to be careful - 'cause I'm probably not done yet getting things wrong.

[Lefein]

When you stop learning, you're dead...or so I've heard.  :icon_jokercolor:

[jabcat]

That's true I think.

(If I was too vague, my real point was, no hammers are necessary  :bigGrin:).

[Lefein]

That's why I carry a rather hefty mace.  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Bought my wife one of these;

http://www.safetygirl.com/mace-gun.html     The pink one.   :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree God set up that law.  But I personally don't believe He was ignorant of what would happen, or, incapable of redirecting things if He wanted to.

I believe then those consequences come from somewhere, as in "a creation of, by (S)someone".  I don't believe anything came into being by accident, and I really don't know if satan is able to create anything.  I don't think I've seen convincing scripture on that, indicating he can/does.

I think you MAY NOT agree from some things you've posted, but I think at the very least God knew what would happen, yet He still set up that law.  If one doesn't believe God knew beforehand, I think that would provide [at least a perceived] "workaround".  But I don't know anywhere that's supported scripturally, in fact I believe there's much indicating otherwise, but off the cuff can't quote it...

We've talked about this for years on TM, and it just ain't settled yet  :laughing7:

I've always stated that God knows everything, even what is going to happen.   The issue is the moral implication that God knew and designed it that way when he really didn't have to.

We can already see that God cannot do absolutely anything,  He cannot lie, it is impossible for him to lie.  That fact is an absolute glory.  It is also an absolute glory that God is not the author of confusion.  Confusion is not something God can be. 

The excuse for God causing evil is that He's God, but those who argue for the moral character of God will not accept that excuse for Eternal Hell from a calvinist, but that is the argument they use.

I know he won't cause a rapist to rape for a good purpose, it is impossible for rape to be righteous, so God didn't think for us to do it, nor cause us to do it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I certainly am not taking any stance towards someone who doesn't agree with me.  As far as taking an absolute stance, God tells me not to be lukewarm, I argued for eternal hell as strongly as I do for things I believe differently now.  When I believe something I take responsibilty for that belief and the chips can fall where they may.

[Lefein]

I've always stated that God knows everything, even what is going to happen.   The issue is the moral implication that God knew and designed it that way when he really didn't have to.

Indeed.  God is the law giver, and the laws of righteousness, and purity (not just mosaic, but of beautitudeous nature) are derived from the heart of God, and so the heart of God if it has made iniquity also, would be divided, a divine hypocrite.

We can already see that God cannot do absolutely anything,  He cannot lie, it is impossible for him to lie.  That fact is an absolute glory.  It is also an absolute glory that God is not the author of confusion.  Confusion is not something God can be.

Amen.  Omnipotence is a term used to describe "Almighty" - being almighty doesn't mean you have "ludicrous power", or a license for "stupid use" of it.

The excuse for God causing evil is that He's God, but those who argue for the moral character of God will not accept that excuse for Eternal Hell from a calvinist, but that is the argument they use.

Amen, amen.

I know he won't cause a rapist to rape for a good purpose, it is impossible for rape to be righteous, so God didn't think for us to do it, nor cause us to do it.

Amen, amen, and thrice amen.  He does not send a child abuser, nor does he make a person abuse a child - but can use the child abuse against itself, and use darkness against itself to further the cause of light; see Joyce Meyer for example.

When torture becomes testimony, it is God who takes the torture someone gives to his child, and makes it a testimony.  That is a pure, and beautiful show of God's omnipotence, an act of creating that is great.

[shawn]

I believe God foreknew of the evil man would commit.  But, I also believe that the evil was not a direct creation of God.  He allowed man to live in the carnal nature and with that came sin and evil.  It was a birthing process, an unavoidable means to an end.  But, in all of this I think we need to keep in mind this verse from Romans chapter 8...

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

[shawn]

Satan as far as I know, can only pervert, or make void.  Not "create".  He might seemingly invent, though it is only a bastardisation.

Like in a sci-fi film, taking a human and subjecting him to all sorts of irradiating terrors, twisting him, and misshaping him, the scientist may believe he has created a new creature, but he has not - he has merely created an abomination, a twisted misshapen form of what was, and still is human, and was meant to be human, but is now a mutated human.

P.S.  You guys ARE taking an absolute stance, and I haven't hit either one of you with hammers, right?

Absolute, because it is what we believe.  And we don't have to be the unbiased moderator. ^_^

__ __ __

As for God knowing evil beforehand, that is something best described by a comparison chart which I will perhaps make later.

I'm not sure about that.  The Bible says satan is the father of lies.  I believe that means satan invented lying.  I believe all evil is a creation of satan.

[Lefein]

All evil (sin) is indeed out of Satan, lies also.

But Satan cannot create ex'nihilo like God.  Satan can however "create" an emptiness, or a space, he can punch a hole in a wall, he has made a hole, but the hole is "nothing" so it does not really "exist" as it is not a "thing", you can't really pick up a hole, if that makes sense.

So Satan can create lies, invent them, but his inventions are "nothing", and all of this is according to my understanding of course - but it is more or less like this;

"To create a lie, you must first distort, or remove the truth."  The distortion of truth, or removal of it, is called a lie, or lying.

I cannot lie about someone, unless I say something about them that distorts the truth about them, or else removes entirely a truth; IE punch a hole in the truth about them by saying something that is "a lie" about them.

"Mrs. McKreedy is a gossiping cheater"  This is a lie, and I created this lie by punching a hole in her integrity as a faithful woman, and by distorting her image as well mannered woman who might chatter alot, but never gossip.

[shawn]

All evil (sin) is indeed out of Satan, lies also.

But Satan cannot create ex'nihilo like God.  Satan can however "create" an emptiness, or a space, he can punch a hole in a wall, he has made a hole, but the hole is "nothing" so it does not really "exist" as it is not a "thing", you can't really pick up a hole, if that makes sense.

So Satan can create lies, invent them, but his inventions are "nothing", and all of this is according to my understanding of course - but it is more or less like this;

"To create a lie, you must first distort, or remove the truth."  The distortion of truth, or removal of it, is called a lie, or lying.

I cannot lie about someone, unless I say something about them that distorts the truth about them, or else removes entirely a truth; IE punch a hole in the truth about them by saying something that is "a lie" about them.

"Mrs. McKreedy is a gossiping cheater"  This is a lie, and I created this lie by punching a hole in her integrity as a faithful woman, and by distorting her image as well mannered woman who might chatter alot, but never gossip.

I don't disagree with any of that.  But, I think the main point is all evil comes from satan which is an absence of God.  I think the main problem some have is that God foreknew that satan would commit these horrible acts yet still created him.  This is where I'm fairly sure my mind fails me in understanding but I believe in order for God to create beings pleasing to him he also had to give them some semblance of choice.  I believe satan and all the angels were given the ability to reject him.  All subsequent evil was a direct result of satan rejecting God's rule.

[Lefein]

I don't disagree with any of that.  But, I think the main point is all evil comes from satan which is an absence of God.

And I do not disagree with this.  I was only clarifying the act of "creation".

I think the main problem some have is that God foreknew that satan would commit these horrible acts yet still created him.

Satan I believe will be redeemed, if I can be bold, and everyone here knows I am as bold as brass...Satan will be presented as God's treasure of ability, his proof of infinite Grace.

When Satan is the only one left in the purifying fire, and every soul is in Heaven and in that strange, aionian silence...Bereft of every last bit of pride, seeing no one around to dominate, or worship him, when Satan himself, comes to his senses and realises his need and hunger - he too will call out for the Bread of Life.  And when the gates of Heaven are opened, and he who is no more the adversary comes out of that fire, and shines in a humble, forgiven light...

God will say to his children; Behold, my grace is sufficient.

Satan is more than the father of all evil, and God's adversary, but in eons to come he may yet be his greatest achievement of grace, having converted the father of evil itself into good.  That would be perhaps, a good reason to create him.

This is where I'm fairly sure my mind fails me in understanding but I believe in order for God to create beings pleasing to him he also had to give them some semblance of choice.  I believe satan and all the angels were given the ability to reject him.  All subsequent evil was a direct result of satan rejecting God's rule.

I agree with this.

[Molly]

If I drive on the wrong side of the road, why should God protect me from a crash for breaking traffic laws?  Why should I expect it?

wow I did this once.  On a highway.  Going the wrong way at 60mph.  After dark.

No idea how I survived that.  God protects fools and little children. :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."

:cloud9: Very interesting.....thanks for the link, FL..... :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.