The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

I am.

Some tornados may have some form of judgement, but I don't know.  But much of it is simply weather, the signs of a fallen universe where death is still in play, (I believe) and more to the point; Signs of the times, that the last days are full of disaster.  When I say last days, I mean the age leading up to the age to come - whether or not this is tomorrow, or until every nation alive today is two generations dead ten thousand years from now; still a part of the age that is "The Last Days", so disaster, earthquakes, war, famine, rumours of wars, etc - are a part of it.

And then there is simple sowing and reaping involved.  God is a god of common sense - if you build your house in an area that is fraught with tornado activity, sooner or later you're going to get it.  If you lay down in the middle of a busy highway, you're soon to get hit.  No act of God was involved here, just plain human stupidity at its finest.

Or else, sometimes it is just a man's time to go, and God takes him up in style...If that makes sense.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am.

Some tornados may have some form of judgement, but I don't know.  But much of it is simply weather, the signs of a fallen universe where death is still in play, (I believe) and more to the point; Signs of the times, that the last days are full of disaster.  When I say last days, I mean the age leading up to the age to come - whether or not this is tomorrow, or until every nation alive today is two generations dead ten thousand years from now; still a part of the age that is "The Last Days", so disaster, earthquakes, war, famine, rumours of wars, etc - are a part of it.

And then there is simple sowing and reaping involved.  God is a god of common sense - if you build your house in an area that is fraught with tornado activity, sooner or later you're going to get it.  If you lay down in the middle of a busy highway, you're soon to get hit.  No act of God was involved here, just plain human stupidity at its finest.

Or else, sometimes it is just a man's time to go, and God takes him up in style...If that makes sense.

Well, what I am getting at is what determines that a tornado leveled a town due to its residence living in sin and merely "weather".

[Lefein]

That I can't answer unfortunately.  It gets up into the realm of God's ways being higher than mine.

But I'd find it safer to assume that all tornados are just the way of things, and that none of them are judgements until something shows otherwise - like a tornado hitting Las Vegas seven times in a row and pulling down all sorts of casinos but leaving the slums alone. (when it is obvious, it is judgement).

I guess it comes down to what the tornado does, and how it is responded to.

[Paul Hazelwood]

That I can't answer unfortunately.  It gets up into the realm of God's ways being higher than mine.

But I'd find it safer to assume that all tornados are just the way of things, and that none of them are judgements until something shows otherwise - like a tornado hitting Las Vegas seven times in a row and pulling down all sorts of casinos but leaving the slums alone. (when it is obvious, it is judgement).

I guess it comes down to what the tornado does, and how it is responded to.

Actually I think your thought of common sense is going down the right track.  Those kinds of things is why I tend to glean more spiritual thought from the whole bible as seeing a mirror of that kind of judgment within myself.

For instance, a tornado to me is simply inert weather patterns on earth not being driven by sin or evil, it is just the nature of our planet.  However I can see how to relate the act of a tornado of judgment within myself and see where God sends it within my mind in judgment of where I should change or chastisment for sin.

[Lefein]

It would make sense that way; The Bible says that Christ was tested by sins common to all men, so it would make sense that sins common to all men would have judgements that are common to all men.  Most men tend to not be hit by firestorms, and earthquakes for being a petty shoplifter...though the firestorm in their spirit, and the earthquake in their sense of security, the fear of getting caught...is usually enough of a judgement in itself.  Especially when they do get caught.

And I suppose (speculatively speaking) that if these private common judgements for common men with their sins common to all of them were to apply to a nation, or residence it would be like this;

The earthquake of an individual fearful about getting caught, and the firestorm of conviction in his conscience...might appear on a city, if all of the residences are in a sin that is common to them.

Like Sodom getting hit by fire because their sins were not only horrendous - but because it was common in their society, and common in a hyperactive sort of sense.  "Constant, and common" amongst all of the men there - and so...they received a common judgement manifested in a way befitting the level of common sin.

In summary perhaps it is something like this;

One man shoplifts, he gets an earthquake in his spirit, a common judgement for that sin.

If every man in a town is stealing from each other and does so constantly, they get an earthquake in their town, a common judgement applied "wholesale".

[WhiteWings]

I don't perceive God to be evil, but nevertheless the scripture tells us God bound all men over to disobedience.
legoman

Thanks for answering with patience and dignity, God bless.

So you belive that God is good. So should't that scripture according to your understanding, i.e I think that you belive that God gives us a below par life, so that he may show us exceedingly great things, so that we have a higher appreciation of heavenly things and not acting like spoilt brats when we get it, but as thankfull people. I understand that position, but shouldnt that scripture read that God will have GRACE on us all, but instead it says God will have MERCY on us all. So you think that God will give us grace, better things, that is true, but according to that scripture God subjects us to this painfull life in order to have Mercy, not GRAce. Mercy implies that we have done evil, but Grace however is simply Gods goodness.

Do you understand?

For me:
- Mercy = Decreasing the amount of punishment deserved. --> Decreasing the negative.
- Grace = Increasing the amount of gifts you didn't deserve --> Increasing the positive.

[WhiteWings]

If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,

I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way.  IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization.  Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying?   If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not  :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.

Let me start with saying I fully understand (some) people want to keep God "clean" of negativity.
Everyone said his/her thing and I think this thread will not lead to further understanding if we just keep discussiong opinions and feelings.
Better would be to collect verses that support both views and then analyse them (little word studies)

All IMO

[jabcat]

If I wasn't trying to stay out of this for now, I'd give you a thumbs up on that.   :laughhand:

[Molly]

Ro 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

This made me think of the Christian Zionists who used to favor war in the middle east so that Jesus might return sooner.  One has to ask, what Jesus are they talking about and what makes them think they can control his return, especially by killing innocents? 

I for one see it impossible to determine an evil act if being righteous justifies anything.  What then cannot be justified?

Or to put it differently, an evil act done in the name of righteousness is never justified.  We see this kind of behavior in cults, e.g. Jonestown.

Isn't this clear in the behavior of men?  Then, why would we think it would be any different with God?

[Cardinal]

I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory.  It is the relationship between sin and evil.  Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin."  In Greek I don't remember.  I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.

Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage.  There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment.  Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties.  Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)

Evil is not necessarily sin.  A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin.  God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 119⁶⁷; AV)  Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:

Hebrews 12^6-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.

But the principle I think we should emphasize (that has been mentioned here) about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things.  We are to intimately know Him as our Savior.  As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant.  The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do.  God is worth of a people that glorify His name.  Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory.  It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead.  This is what will remain:  all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified.  "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."  The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil.  Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.

The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one.  It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God.  Is it Sarah or Hagar?  Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family.  Is it  Rachel or Leah?  How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you?  Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways.  There are 12 foundations to the city and 12 gates into it.  Yet, "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life.  God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth.  God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.

:cloud9: :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,

I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way.  IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization.  Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying?   If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not  :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.

Let me start with saying I fully understand (some) people want to keep God "clean" of negativity.
Everyone said his/her thing and I think this thread will not lead to further understanding if we just keep discussiong opinions and feelings.
Better would be to collect verses that support both views and then analyse them (little word studies)

All IMO

:cloud9: :thumbsup:

[Molly]

God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth.  God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.

A little known story--

NAZI CRIMES AGAINST ETHNIC POLES

The majority of those killed by Nazi Germany [in Poland] were civilians (exceeding military deaths nearly 10:1).[1][2]

From the start of the war against Poland, Germany intended to realize the plan laid-out by the Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in his 1926 book Mein Kampf. The aim of this plan was to turn Eastern Europe into part of greater Germany, the so-called German Lebensraum ("living space"). Nazi ideology had viewed Slavs as a racially inferior group.[3] On the August 22, 1939, on the invasion of Poland, Hitler gave explicit permission to his commanders to kill "without pity or mercy, men, women, and children of Polish descent or language"[4]. Genocide was conducted systematically against Polish people: on September 7 1939 Reinhard Heydrich stated that all Polish nobles, clergy and Jews are to be killed, on September 12 Wilhelm Keitel added intelligentsia to the list,at the end of 1940 Hitler demanded liquidation of "all leading elements in Poland" and on 15 March 1940 Himmler stated All Polish specialists will be exploited in our military-industrial complex. Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German nation considers the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task[5].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles



They didn't succeed, did they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUp7opL0F0I
Jesus rises in Poland--world's tallest statue of Jesus just completed

[micah7:9]

Isa 55:8  For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.
Isa 55:9  For, higher, are the heavens than the earth,—So, higher, are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isa
55:10  For, as the rain and the snow descend from the heavens. And thither, do not return, Except they have watered the earth. And caused it to bring forth and bud,—And given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11  So, shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, It shall not return unto me void,—But shall accomplish that which I please, And shall prosper in that whereunto I have sent it.

Anything that Jehovah does or allows is for good.

[thinktank]

Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.

[Beloved Servant]

Colossians 1:17
   
New International Version (©1984)
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New Living Translation (©2007)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

International Standard Version (©2008)
He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He existed before everything and holds everything together.

King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American King James Version
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American Standard Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Bible in Basic English
He is before all things, and in him all things have being.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

Darby Bible Translation
And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him.

English Revised Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Weymouth New Testament
And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.

World English Bible
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

Young's Literal Translation
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

[Beloved Servant]

@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I shared this before, but I came to my stance on this subject about a week after I started hemmoraghing buckets, and was told I had terminal cancer which had spread to my other organs. This occurred only 2 years after my mother lost her battle the same way, which made it even worse.

Worse still, was His comment to me during that time, about 4 months before she passed, that the cancer had a legal right (generational curse to an only child) to come to me, but that He would not let it touch me. I have faith that He has developed over years, to know that if He says something, He will perform it.

Shocked, I went home from the doctor's office, and hit the floor on my face, and said, "LORD! Define "touch!"  :mshock:

I had to face at this moment, that He COULD let it take me if that was His perfect will for me, and that I needed to accept that from His hand if that was the case, in spite of previous promises received from Him. Job said essentially, shall we receive good from the Lord and not EVIL? Note that God said that Job did not sin with his lips/confession.

Once I accepted this and surrendered my life to His perfect will for me (something I had already done long ago, but not under such circumstances), I received the revelation that if ONLY God could "kill" (allow death to take me) me, NOTHING ELSE COULD. Receiving this was gained by EXPERIENCE.

And when I say experience, I'm not talking about the condition of having terminal cancer, but rather the drinking of His cup, which is the taking on of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil = US. To have knowledge of, means to be one with, as Adam knew his wife and she conceived. Sin, when it hath conceived, bringeth forth death. He took on the image of sinful flesh.

I had thought I was totally surrendered to His perfect will, but when facing literal death and all that means to you and others you care about, it was a whole new ballgame. God uses evil as a tool, with a perfect motive of the heart. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.

wow.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Anything that Jehovah does or allows is for good.

I absolutely know that God is pure righteousness, however, Man can associate God as doing things that creats the illusion that something is righteous.

[thinktank]

@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.

No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.

Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.

God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.

From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are  :dontknow:

[Paul Hazelwood]

@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.

No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.

Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.

God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.

From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are  :dontknow:

The issue I think is the nature of his control.   God may not intervene if you decide to kill someone, that doesn't mean he is not in control it means that there may be a certain nature of things that causes it to appear to us in a "negative" sense.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Let me illustrate something to relate what I believe at this time.

I think a lot about the butterfly simply because  as we study that metamorphasis and watch from the outside it sure appears that the butterfly is putting up quite a struggle as it is trying to break into freedom from the cocoon.  Of course we really do not know if the butterfly "thinks" anything at all.

However I though one time as I was watching a cocoon wiggle around, what if the butterfly was aware that I was there, what if the butterfly was experiencing all kind of "evil" in it's world perhaps it sees great attrocities as it is trapped and wanting to break free of the world it might see as a prison.   It might think, why, why do I just watch and do nothing.

Some certainly disagree, but I think we are in a cocoon in a similar fashion, not because God "planned" it that way as if he did not have to and could of done it some other way, but we perceive things and imagine things and come up with things to make sense of the God who apparently does nothing to stop this "out of control" world.   When the reality is, God understands our struggle and looks on "knowing" what "must" be.  He couldn't have done it any other way because it is the "nature" of our existance and he looks on in wonderful anticipation of the beauty that is working to break free.

[Lefein]

It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

If you're sinless, Beloved Servant cast the first stone.  Otherwise, put away that judgemental, pharisaical spirit from you that says;

"If you do not look my way - you are not looking at all"  I personally think Thinktank might be on to something, darkly we all see, but on to something none the less.

__ __ __

Back on topic, I think Thinktank is right, there is a Christian Myth regarding God's type of sovereignty.

Now, in order to avoid judgemental sentences; I DO BELIEVE that God is Sovereign.  However;

God's sovereign control does not necessitate pervading omni-manipulation.  God is much smarter than that - he has the capacity to use brains over brawn.  He is almighty enough to use subtle miracles more often than he does splitting the seas and rivers.

God sees when the swallow, or the sparrow, or the eagle, or the hummingbird falls out of the sky and dies - but does it say he smacked it out of the sky by any means of his power?  No, it simply means that the law of gravity took effect on an otherwise upward bound creature.

Christ keeps the universe in check, this is a fact.  But does it mean that Christ is using a pervading omni-manipulation sovereignty to do so?  Perhaps in some cases, yes.  But the truth is most likely in the middle of "God makes the wind blow at exactly 2 gusts per minute, and makes the rain drops fall at a rate of 2 inches per half hour in Idaho around my great aunt McNugget's house" and "God just made a clockwork universe, wound it up, and let it go, otherwise he has no control".

Is it really honouring to our Father in heaven, to just say "God did it" and not even look into how he may have done it?  How can we know our real father, God, if we worship him with a false reverence - a reverence that over-grandeurises God's power (and yes it can be done even with the infinite grandness of God, in the exact same way you can over-spiritualise God who is Spirit) by putting up an ultimatum over every act in nature, an ultimatum that makes us sound like primitive pagans?

Two Christians were given a science test, and on that test was the question;

Why do earthquakes happen?

One child put; God did it.

The other child put; God did it by creating the law of convection in the earth that by their work caused two tectonic plates to grind against each other, creating an earthquake.

The other child surely got a good grade, the first child failed.  God likewise I am sure thinks it is a poor faith, a poor grade, a poor learning when he gives us opportunities to learn the finesse of his sovereignty, and his creation - and we act like untaught heathens who have no better answer than out of some fear of insulting our deity by saying anything other than "God did it" "Zeus did it" "Isis did it" "Ra did it" "The Chrone Goddess did it" "Dagda did it", just because you change the name to God, or YHWH, or Yahweh doesn't make it any less pagan sounding in God's ears.  It is false reverence that doesn't like a child want to know more about the fine work of Father God's workmanship.

God did it, is perhaps a true answer, but it is a very poor one given on our part, because it is bare minimum faith, a faith that doesn't seek to know how, or why, or what, it doesn't commune, or communicate, or seek the heart of God, it only sits on the outside like the Pharisees with the letter of the word instead of delving to find the Spirit deep beneath it.  And like the Pharisees that type of faith is going to be met with fire, and not a stone will be left upon another in the day of wrath.

[Beloved Servant]

It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

If you're sinless, Beloved Servant cast the first stone.  Otherwise, put away that judgemental, pharisaical spirit from you that says;

"If you do not look my way - you are not looking at all"  I personally think Thinktank might be on to something, darkly we all see, but on to something none the less.

__ __ __

Back on topic, I think Thinktank is right, there is a Christian Myth regarding God's type of sovereignty.

Now, in order to avoid judgemental sentences; I DO BELIEVE that God is Sovereign.  However;

God's sovereign control does not necessitate pervading omni-manipulation.  God is much smarter than that - he has the capacity to use brains over brawn.  He is almighty enough to use subtle miracles more often than he does splitting the seas and rivers.

God sees when the swallow, or the sparrow, or the eagle, or the hummingbird falls out of the sky and dies - but does it say he smacked it out of the sky by any means of his power?  No, it simply means that the law of gravity took effect on an otherwise upward bound creature.

Christ keeps the universe in check, this is a fact.  But does it mean that Christ is using a pervading omni-manipulation sovereignty to do so?  Perhaps in some cases, yes.  But the truth is most likely in the middle of "God makes the wind blow at exactly 2 gusts per minute, and makes the rain drops fall at a rate of 2 inches per half hour in Idaho around my great aunt McNugget's house" and "God just made a clockwork universe, wound it up, and let it go, otherwise he has no control".

Is it really honouring to our Father in heaven, to just say "God did it" and not even look into how he may have done it?  How can we know our real father, God, if we worship him with a false reverence - a reverence that over-grandeurises God's power (and yes it can be done even with the infinite grandness of God, in the exact same way you can over-spiritualise God who is Spirit) by putting up an ultimatum over every act in nature, an ultimatum that makes us sound like primitive pagans?

Two Christians were given a science test, and on that test was the question;

Why do earthquakes happen?

One child put; God did it.

The other child put; God did it by creating the law of convection in the earth that by their work caused two tectonic plates to grind against each other, creating an earthquake.

The other child surely got a good grade, the first child failed.  God likewise I am sure thinks it is a poor faith, a poor grade, a poor learning when he gives us opportunities to learn the finesse of his sovereignty, and his creation - and we act like untaught heathens who have no better answer than out of some fear of insulting our deity by saying anything other than "God did it" "Zeus did it" "Isis did it" "Ra did it" "The Chrone Goddess did it" "Dagda did it", just because you change the name to God, or YHWH, or Yahweh doesn't make it any less pagan sounding in God's ears.  It is false reverence that doesn't like a child want to know more about the fine work of Father God's workmanship.

God did it, is perhaps a true answer, but it is a very poor one given on our part, because it is bare minimum faith, a faith that doesn't seek to know how, or why, or what, it doesn't commune, or communicate, or seek the heart of God, it only sits on the outside like the Pharisees with the letter of the word instead of delving to find the Spirit deep beneath it.  And like the Pharisees that type of faith is going to be met with fire, and not a stone will be left upon another in the day of wrath.

YOU Lefein are a victim of your own misunderstanding and more sadly pass that onto others!

I posed a question to our young TTank.

Perhaps he is here to share in OUR faith and grace and grow in it.

And I ask you again and again Lefein, stop telling me what to do!

Remember, it took David but one stone!

[Lefein]

You accused him of not reading, or believing the scriptures.  And then asked him why it was necessary to fellowship, and argue with people who do.

You created two categories - believers, unbelievers.  And you put Thinktank in the unbelievers category, excluded from your own category "We who believe" as if you already had judged him an unbeliever in the scriptures, or worse someone who is ignorant of them - which he is not.

I don't believe, based on how your sentence came across, that you had good will or positive want in your statement about him, and question towards him.

And based on your reaction...I certainly don't believe it.