The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

To put it simply:

As God thinks, so is he.

[willieH]

ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...

IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture...  :nod:

I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.

Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod:   For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?

Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE  as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...

He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation.  :dontknow: 

Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.

There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured...  here are just a few:

1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.

willieH   :cloud9:

Thank you for the reply willie,  very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.

:sigh:  ...this comment is more of the regular cold sarcasm... that continues in flowing from you... to be pitied...  :pitiful:

What I have, is the assurance that... my course is already noted by YHVH... and whatever it is, it is my part in HIS puzzle... whatever it might be... and I accept, that the part that my life has played in its entirety is needed in order for that PUZZLE to arrive at its completion...

So far, I have raised 3 great human beings (my son just walked in while I was typing this, and is celebrating his 13th anniversary today --- whaddaya know!  :thumbsup:) ...who have produced 10 grandchildren with my wife of 34 years -- (Hey thats almost as long as you have been alive, isnt it?)... and in ALL that time (65 years), never been in a jail cell ONCE...  How about you?  :dontknow:

Thankfully my life does NOT include the sarcastic, unedifying and irrelevant IMAGINARY conjecture you propose (and likely wish for me), which has no substance IN REALITY, whatsoeverl...  :thumbdown:

Once again, you show that you are very easily confounded, as you wallow in your negativity (proposing such as me as a potential "serial killer"),  :thumbdown:  ...which only displays, to be obviously, and unfortunately, ...YOUR PART... :pitiful:   


Who knows brother Paul... maybe the Lord has filled my hands to the degree (with all those kids & grandkids) that He plans to pass that "serial killer" option to you... hey --- you never know!  :dunno:

willieH   :cloud9:

[Lefein]

For all the talk of this deity being so powerful that he can do the impossible (the ludicrously impossible) he seems awfully intent on staying as far away from messing with our pre-determined evil riddled destinies as he can...

almost as if it were impossible for him to change his own pre-determined ordinances...

[Lefein]

Edited my post a little bit.

[Paul Hazelwood]

ANYTHING is POSSIBLE with GOD... If God has chosen my pathway to contain MURDER, than it shall... that said...

IF's are not reality... so any projuection which is founded upon a conjecture, AND has no basis other than conjecture, ...is nothing more than that, ...an imaginary conjecture...  :nod:

I have 10 grandkids... and deeply love every one of them... as do they... me.

Whatever GOD has decided that my pathway shall include... it shall include... :nod:   For I believe the Scriptures as they are WRITTEN, not as I would have them written -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

I do not presently percieve that I shall become a murderer... but then again, ...I do not (for certain) know ANY of the events of my future, ...do you?

Murder IS a mental/heart deficieny which GOD KNEW each murderer would have BEFORE they "murdered"... and brought THEM ...and... their VICTIMS forth (apparently) without REGARD to that KNOWLEDGE  as well as KNOWING that He (when the manifestation took place) would do NOTHING to prevent the "murder"... so IMO, the manifestation must be PURPOSED...

He cannot therefore be disassociated with the occurance, and certainly is the ULTIMATE accessory to its manifestation.  :dontknow: 

Nor for that matter, can He be disassociated with ANY other variances (beside "murder") of the advent of DEATH in human beings.

There are a number of ways ANY "murder" could have been prevented by GOD, but NONE of them are/were done BY HIM... for the "MURDERS" occured...  here are just a few:

1. The Murderer was never brought forth
2. The Victim was never brought forth
3. The method of "murder" was never brought forth into existence
4. The deficiency of mind which produces such negativity was never enabled
5. The knowledge of "murder" was never made known to men
6. God being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnicscient... is not impeded from intervening by ANYTHING
7. God did not have to even bring forth "murderable" beings...
8. Death is the result of murder... Death was brought forth in its varying forms and cannot be disassociated from Him for He enabled LIFE to be potentially ENDED, irregardless of the means by which it ends.
9. Even though He is the Creator of Life, ...God Himself has personally taken life from men... so in that regard (taking the life of another away=murder) He can be called a "murderer"... see the "flood" -- "Sodom & Gomorrah" -- etc.

willieH   :cloud9:

Thank you for the reply willie,  very few people that take your stance will believe that you have no assurance that God will not cause you to be the next serial killer we hear about on the news, thank you for your honesty.

:sigh:  ...this comment is more of the regular cold sarcasm... that continues in flowing from you... to be pitied...  :pitiful:

What I have, is the assurance that... my course is already noted by YHVH... and whatever it is, it is my part in HIS puzzle... whatever it might be... and I accept, that the part that my life has played in its entirety is needed in order for that PUZZLE to arrive at its completion...

So far, I have raised 3 great human beings who have produced 10 grandchildren with a wife of 34 years... and in that time, never been in a jail cell ONCE... 

Thankfully it is NOT the sarcastic, unedifying and irrelevant IMAGINARY conjecture you propose, which has no substance IN REALITY, at all...  :thumbdown:

Once again, you show that you are very easily confounded, as you wallow in your negativity (proposing such as me as a potential "serial killer"),  :thumbdown:  ...which only displays, to be obviously, and unfortunately, ...YOUR PART... :pitiful:   


Who knows brother Paul... maybe the Lord has filled my hands to the degree (with all those kids & grandkids) that He plans to pass that "serial killer" option to you... hey --- you never know!  :dunno:

willieH   :cloud9:

Thank you for the reply Willie,  truth is what it is,  if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do. 

If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.

Again thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.

[jabcat]

which is?

That the world through Christ will be saved.

CHB

...each in His own order.  Some now, the first fruits at His appearing, then...All in All.

You asked earlier TT, what's God's intention for this world now?  Was it Jesus' intention that all be saved at that very moment, when He hid the truth from them? (spoke in parables, lest they believe and turn).  I think it's a bigger plan than that, and sometimes we can see very little of it...at the moment.   This has been said numerous times, and it's in the scriptures.  Interesting how we just see pieces..all of us.   :bigGrin:

[willieH]

For all the talk of this deity being so powerful that he can do the impossible (the ludicrously impossible) he seems awfully intent on staying as far away from messing with our pre-determined evil riddled destinies as he can...

He has no need to change that which is PERFECT... so He doesn't -- Mal 3:6

willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

If you perceive God to be an evil God as many here do,

I've seen NO ONE say they see God that way.  IMO, that's a gross mischaracterization.  Honest question - is that what you really hear people saying?   If so, and if there's any sort of consensus on that (maybe there's not  :dontknow:) - if after all this discussion that's "where we are" - then this thread may be about to outlive its usefullness for now.

[willieH]

Thank you for the reply Willie,  truth is what it is,  if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do. 

If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.

I haven't any problem with your sarcasm... though I feel for you that you are amidst it... but as you have duly noted, it is your part... just as Pharaoh had his...  :dontknow:

That YOU, within your demented thought processes, would suggest that I (as a follower of CHRIST) would strangle my grandchildren only further avails the darkened place in which your mind dwells... :pitiful:

Like I said, ...God has busied me, by surrounding me with the affairs of LOVE in my life... maybe you are the one to get the "serial killer opportunity" Paul... who knows?  :Chinscratch:

Again thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.

You are more than welcome...   :HeartThrob:   

It is always my heartfelt desire to serve, and in thanksgiving toward YHVH ...that welcomes the opportunity of my sharing, to be used by Him in His enlightenment of the existent shadows within your darkened understanding...  :friendstu:

willieH   :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Thank you for the reply Willie,  truth is what it is,  if my comment is as what you say and what you believe is the truth, then what is of me is Gods design and I am not to be concerned with what God has designed me to do. 

If it is cold sarcasm that I have been ordained to give then that is what I will give, if the Lord desires that you strangle your grandchildren then the love you believe you have for them is irrelevant and that is what you will do since it is of the Lord that you shall do such a thing and you have nothing to say about it.

I haven't any problem with your sarcasm... though I feel for you that you are amidst it... but as you have duly noted, it is your part... just as Pharaoh had his...  :dontknow:

That YOU, within your demented thought processes, would suggest that I (as a follower of CHRIST) would strangle my grandchildren only further avails the darkened place in which your mind dwells... :pitiful:

Like I said, ...God has busied me, by surrounding me with the affairs of LOVE in my life... maybe you are the one to get the "serial killer opportunity" Paul... who knows?  :Chinscratch:

Again thank you for bringing truth and light up on the subject of God and his desires.

You are more than welcome...   :HeartThrob:   

It is always my heartfelt desire to serve, and in thanksgiving toward YHVH ...that welcomes the opportunity of my sharing, to be used by Him in His enlightenment of the existent shadows within your darkened understanding...  :friendstu:

willieH   :cloud9:

Thank you for sharing the desire of God to manifest a demented thought process that you percieve taking place.

It is not of me but of God.

That truth being manifest then you can take comfort that it is indeed the truth and that you nor anyone else has any assurance that the God of love and good news has not designed you to beat your wife in the future and in the event that such a thing take place in Gods will it will be for a good and divine purpose. 

Let us continue to share the good news that no believer can rest easy knowing that God will harden who he hardens and can turn the most devout believer into someone that drowns their children.

Yea, let us share the good news.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ok, seems things are getting a bit testy again......locking the thread for a few minutes so everyone can count to 10....

[jabcat]

A little related reading material while we wait to see if/when this thread is re-opened;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/a_look_on_wrath_6707.0.html

[jabcat]

MOD NOTE -

I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not.  I've realized some things.

BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).

We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.

I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately.  ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions.  Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few.  Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.

So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.

Bonus note, won't cost you a thing  :bigGrin:.  I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night.  What do we want them to witness?

SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?

[jabcat]

THREAD'S OPEN - respectful, UR-focused plz.  Thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

MOD NOTE -

I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not.  I've realized some things.

BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).

We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.

I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately.  ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions.  Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few.  Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.

So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.

Bonus note, won't cost you a thing  :bigGrin:.  I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night.  What do we want them to witness?

SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?

I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern.   What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.

The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart.  Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad,  otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.

[micah7:9]

Isa 55:8  For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.
Isa 55:9  For, higher, are the heavens than the earth,—So, higher, are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isa
55:10  For, as the rain and the snow descend from the heavens. And thither, do not return, Except they have watered the earth. And caused it to bring forth and bud,—And given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11  So, shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, It shall not return unto me void,—But shall accomplish that which I please, And shall prosper in that whereunto I have sent it.

[Beloved Servant]

MOD NOTE -

I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not.  I've realized some things.

BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).

We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.

I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately.  ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions.  Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few.  Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.

So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.

Bonus note, won't cost you a thing  :bigGrin:.  I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night.  What do we want them to witness?

SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?

I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern.   What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.

The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart.  Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad,  otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.

Well, I disagree with you Paul and think James and Card stepped in at just the right moment.

[jabcat]

Paul, asking tough questions is not the issue, and I don't know how you could get that it is out of my post.  I don't think it's there.  If that were an accurate assessment, the thread would still be locked, and would have probably been locked a long time ago. 

What it's addressing is people being insulting to each other, and doing exactly what I outlined in the post - flaming and baiting, which is against forum guidelines.
People being considerate, not smarting each other off and insulting each other, IMO, is not being fake.

[Paul Hazelwood]

MOD NOTE -

I've been thinking about this, whether to re-open this thread or not.  I've realized some things.

BY FAR, most of the discussion has been civil, even outright respectful to each other at times (gasp!).

We said some time back that threads won't be closed just because 2 or 3 people won't behave themselves in an expectedly appropriate manner - because otherwise, others, who are showing the maturity to discuss the ISSUES and not taking personal shots at each other, are being limited/punished for the behavior of a few.

I'll pray about it, and the thread may be re-opened, and everyone given the same opportunity to participate appropriately.  ONCE AGAIN, if anyone's not sure what flaming or baiting is, plz check under the Admin Notices under "What You May Not Do" and familiarize yourself very well with their definitions.  Then plz apply it to your own posting style and manner, because if the thread's re-opened, it won't be locked again due to the behavior of a few.  Instead, the guidelines will be enforced, which say in the "WYMND" post, that bans will be initiated for repeated offenses.

So, if anyone can't post in this thread OR ANY OTHER, without flaming/baiting (insulting, embarrassing, attempting to elicit a derogatory/embarrassing response etc.) then I think a reasonable suggestion is that you avoid posting (or avoid a particular thread altogether if you feel it's unacceptable or somehow damaging to your walk) at least until you are able to participate appropriately and/or benefit from it.

Bonus note, won't cost you a thing  :bigGrin:.  I counted TEN GUESTS viewing this particular topic last night.  What do we want them to witness?

SELF INCLUDED - CAN WE PLZ FOCUS ON THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT?

I just want to make it clear that nothing I have read so far in this thread has bothered me or caused me concern.   What I want people to witness is people being themselves, not a fake representation of something that don't exist in the first place.

The exploration of the truth is not easy, nor is it necessarily for the faint of heart.  Sometimes the tough questions need to be asked and the reality and totality of what people believe needs to be exposed, whether that exposes good or bad,  otherwise, we are all pretending to seek truth and at that point what anyone sees is a lie.

Well, I disagree with you Paul and think James and Card stepped in at just the right moment.

It is ok for you to disagree with me.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, asking tough questions is not the issue, and I don't know how you could get that it is out of my post.  I don't think it's there.  If that were an accurate assessment, the thread would still be locked, and would have probably been locked a long time ago. 

What it's addressing is people being insulting to each other, and doing exactly what I outlined in the post - flaming and baiting, which is against forum guidelines.
People being considerate, not smarting each other off and insulting each other, IMO, is not being fake.

Ok, I must have missed what was going on.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1Pt 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

In order for us to determine what it is that is Evil there first must be a benchmark concerning what that is.   The idea that whatever God does is good tickles our ears but there is no reasoning in that to tell us what evil is.

There must be a benchmark and knowledge concerning what is an evil act and what is not.

One argument I have heard is that some things God is credited for are righteous because what human being might experience at his hands is only temporary, so then the end game justifies the means.

Ro 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

I for one see it impossible to determine an evil act if being righteous justifies anything.  What then cannot be justified?

We find this a lot.  Many finger pointers pour out bucket loads of "truth" onto others in the name of thinking themselves to be true followers of Christ simply doing the "will" of God.   If the thought of being righteous then gives the sense of right just what then IS right and wrong?

[reFORMer]

I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory.  It is the relationship between sin and evil.  Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin."  In Greek I don't remember.  I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.

Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage.  There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment.  Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties.  Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)

Evil is not necessarily sin.  A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin.  God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 119⁶⁷; AV)  Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:

Hebrews 12^6-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.

But the principle I think we should emphasize (that has been mentioned here) about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things.  We are to intimately know Him as our Savior.  As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant.  The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do.  God is worth of a people that glorify His name.  Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory.  It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead.  This is what will remain:  all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified.  "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."  The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil.  Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.

The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one.  It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God.  Is it Sarah or Hagar?  Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family.  Is it  Rachel or Leah?  How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you?  Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways.  There are 12 foundations to the city and 12 gates into it.  Yet, "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life.  God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth.  God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've not read the entire thread, but something I thought had been brought out earlier may be my faulty memory.  It is the relationship between sin and evil.  Maybe more than a dozen words are used in Hebrew for various sorts of what may generically be called "sin."  In Greek I don't remember.  I'm just using it as a large umbrella term.

Sin can be something good in the wrong way or time, without proper authorization, like sexual intimacies without marriage.  There is pleasure, which is good, but it is wrong without the marriage commitment.  Bringing a new life into the world is very good, but without marriage it is the parents sin that reaps many additional difficulties.  Sin can be evil, inflicting suffering or death on others without license (because a Doctor can inflict suffering to bring about healing and government can sentence to death to protect the public from a killer.)

Evil is not necessarily sin.  A tornado through the center of town or a cancer are evil, but they aren't sin.  God uses chastening evils as an aspect of our transformation into His image. The Psalmist say, "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept Thy word." (Ps 119⁶⁷; AV)  Concerning "contending against sin" (vs 4) it continues:

Hebrews 12^6-8; AV
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.

But the principle (that has been mentioned here) I think we should emphasize about evil, and more so concerning sin, is that God wants us to find our way out and up over these things.  We are to intimately know Him as our Savior.  As surely as the wine we share is His blood poured out for the remission of sins, so the bread we partake of is His body broken for the healing of our bodies in this new covenant.  The purpose of evil is to rule over it, to come to where we qualify to set creation free from bondage to corruption, darkness, disease, lack, things that destroy us and those with whom we have to do.  God is worth of a people that glorify His name.  Plagues and burnings, sickness and sword are limited and on the fringe of that Glory.  It is by making His enemies His friends, by enlightening the ignorant, healing the sick, freeing the captive, proclaiming good news to the poor, even raising the dead.  This is what will remain:  all justified, all made alive, all sanctified, all glorified.  "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."  The last enemy will be abolished means good will triumph over evil.  Though fought against, this is a wonderful thing to believe.

The difference between inheriting sons and bastard in the passage above is not in the Father, of which we have only one.  It is the mother, whether slave or free speaking of those called out (Eclessia) to be joined in God.  Is it Sarah or Hagar?  Bilha ("to bear hire") is part of the family.  Is it  Rachel or Leah?  How does your soul "conceive" of God and His work with you?  Corporate or individual, many approach God in different ways.  There are 12 gates into the city.    "Everyone must be salted with fire," but it is the inheritors who hold to the Word of the Lord in the midst of the furnace of affliction, making it the birth pangs of the new creation born of our union with His Word which is Spirit and Life.  God is bringing forth a Royal Priesthood to reign in all the earth.  God means us to become Overcomers, to triumph over evil, subduing and eliminating it and leading others to do the same.

That is some good things to think about, however, if you knew that the tornado was intentionally directed through a town, could the director of the tornado then be sinning?

[Lefein]

I concede room for remedial justice - a tornado on a town who might have really flung themselves into Sodom and Tophet...

But, I don't think he sends a tornado just to show his kids what it feels like to be hit by one.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I concede room for remedial justice - a tornado on a town who might have really flung themselves into Sodom and Tophet...

But, I don't think he sends a tornado just to show his kids what it feels like to be hit by one.

Are you bringing that thought into modern times and documented cases of a tornado leveling the structures of an entire town?