The Problem of Evil

[Lefein]

wow I did this once.  On a highway.  Going the wrong way at 60mph.  After dark.

No idea how I survived that.  God protects fools and little children.

But you didn't do it on purpose? ^^

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.

I do indeed answer it as thus, atleast according to my understanding;

"That which is nothing, is not a thing, being "no thing"'

I say that evil is an absence, which is basically a "hole".  A hole is full of nothing, and so it is not a "thing" in the "All things".  Or else evil is a distortion, which would still be absence, being then the absence of truth about an existing thing.

Evil begins with the absence of God, who is Life, Truth.  The absence of Life, is Death, and the sting of Death is sin.  The absence of Truth is lie, because to be absent of Truth is to be untrue, having no truth in it.

I was talking to my friend about this just a little bit ago, and this came to me after remembering a post that showed that a good tree produces good fruit.

A good tree, produces good fruit, and though that fruit is good - if it becomes separated from the life giving branches of the tree, it begins to die, and to rot, and no longer remains good fruit.  Yet even out of that rotten fruit, God can pull good seeds, so God can use the bad fruit to spread the good trees, but the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches.  If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all, or even his purposes.  It simply..."is so".  Life = Life, separation from Life = Death.

[jabcat]

Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches.  If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."

And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.

So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate?  Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way?  Accident?  A simple act or quirk of evolution?  Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge?  And if so, who takes responsibility for it?

[Paul Hazelwood]

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.

An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about.   If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.

If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Lefein, you said yes, you do see it that way, and that "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power, it was just the inevitable consequence of being separated from the life giving branches.  If you are separated from life-giving life, dying you will die, that is a fact in and of itself, a truth, even without looking at God's creative nature, or even his nature at all."

And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.

So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate?  Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way?  Accident?  A simple act or quirk of evolution?  Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge?  And if so, who takes responsibility for it?

I have said that God is responsible because of one of possibly two things.

1. God can make a choice to create, but because of Gods nature that does not change there is an inherant knowledge that we will be subject to things that we perceive and evil.  Those things are inherant to the journey, but God did not choose this evil and that evil but prepared the way for all our paths so that no one was lost.  Proverbs 5:21

2.  God is of the nature that expands and grows because that's his nature, it does not change, we are a result of that growth, and at that point it is the same as above only it has never been about God choosing to create or not create, creation is his nature that does not change.


I personally am more inclined to #2

[Lefein]

And as Paul said earlier, things are consequences of law that God put in place.

Indeed.  I was only saying "the fruit did not rot on the edict of God's creative power" as the best way I could in my limited way saying it is not something out of God's effort to cause, though he knew its moment being omniscient and omnipresent in time - hence had a plan with the seeds.  Just to clarify.

So my thought is, where did those consequences initially originate?

Simply enough, in the unchanging nature of God and his Truths.  The laws have always been, not so much the mosaic laws, but the thoughts behind them that Jesus expounded on as he sat on the mount.  Simple truths that; "I am Love" to be separated from love, is to become full of hate, which is a void, to become full of the black hole that is hatefulness.  It is simply an unchanging truth that has its origins in God who is Truth unchanging from olam to olam.

Where was it set in place that the fruit would rot apart from the branch, and who made it that way?  Accident?  A simple act or quirk of evolution?  Or if not, didn't someone have to at least set that in motion with either a plan, or at least foreknowledge?  And if so, who takes responsibility for it?

It is according to my understanding, that creation is the expression of God's truths.  His voice made everything, and his voice is his word, and his word is Truth and Life; A voice is the communication of a thought, or an idea, or an essence that is in the Self of a being, or his heart, that is why the mouth speaks what is in the heart.  So out of the abundance of God's unchanging heart, his essence (Love, Goodness, Truth, Life, etc), he communicated Voice and that voice Made; and what it made was Creation, and every'thing' in it shows the glory of God from the stars that show the truth of his brightness as Light, to the flower that shows his provision of glory that Solomon himself couldn't match in all of his power.

So, basically - Truth unchanging is what determined whether or not something separated from Life, would experience the fading, and voiding of that Life - what we call Death, which brings with it decrease of godliness - Rot, where as being full of life brings increase of godliness - Growth.

[jabcat]

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.

An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about.   If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.

If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.

Well, really I want to ask about your thoughts re: "an act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be" - I don't want to assume;  are you saying God couldn't have done anything different than what He did?  And if so, wouldn't that sort of make Him a victim of His own creation, and powerless in some ways to control it?

Also, I know you've repeatedly addressed the "we can't understand excuse";  I don't know of any scriptures that say we can fully understand all about God and His ways.  Maybe there's some scripture there I can't recall at the moment.  OTOH, I do know we have this;

Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
   neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
   so are my ways higher than your ways
   and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[jabcat]

So Lef, you don't believe God created rot or death?  If not, who said it would be that way?  Something apart from God or out of His control?

[Paul Hazelwood]

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  John 1:3

Lefein and Paul specifically (or anyone else), don't you answer this by saying that evil (or more specifically, sin) was not created or made?  That it's a result of or absence of something else, not created?  Is that correct?  And if so, I'm really mulling if that's actually possible, in the overall scheme of things - that anything could exist, that taken to its ultimate conclusion, could exist without an act of forethought and/or creation.

An act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be is the issue I am talking about.   If God has a moral character that can be known, then we can work out what he can and cannot do.

If the "we just can't understand" excuse is valid then there is no true moral argument against eternal hell, we just have a bunch of people who do not like it and have rationalized their beliefs into a God of their liking.

Well, really I want to ask about your thoughts re: "an act of creation that inherantly manifests certain things as a result of there being no other way it could be" - I don't want to assume;  are you saying God couldn't have done anything different than what He did?  And if so, wouldn't that sort of make Him a victim of His own creation, and powerless in some ways to control it?

Also, I know you've repeatedly addressed the "we can't understand excuse";  I don't know of any scriptures that say we can fully understand all about God and His ways.  Maybe there's some scripture there I can't recall at the moment.  OTOH, I do know we have this;

Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
   neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
   so are my ways higher than your ways
   and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Yes James  there are things God cannot control as a manifestation of either his growing or his choosing to create us.   This however still does not mean that his nature is not on a set path that does not change, because God does not change.  There are plenty of scriptures that define what Gods control is about.

Proverbs 16:9 and 5:21  and then we have this verse.

(1 Corinthians 1:25)  for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."


As for Gods ways aren't our ways,  that has nothing to do with not being able to understand Gods ways.

When someone who believes that a human being will burn in hell forever uses the verses that say  "Gods ways arent our ways"  isn't that then an equally valid responce?   It is not, somewhere along the line someone was willing to believe and understand that Gods way isn't eternal hell.

[WhiteWings]

Whitewings: As I stated before, the difference between evil (the King's English dual usage) and evil (sinning) is like this;

Will a father with his right hand swat a child's behind to correct him - and with that same right hand strangle him in order to achieve the same end of obedience?
.....
I say that God does not sin at all

Sinning is breaking rules. That's what I tried to point out.
Just killing is called murder. Murder is forbidden by one of the 10 commandments. But God Himself helped His people in wars (read to kill many). In that case killing was killing and not sin.
So before the word sin is used we need to know the law that applies (to that person)

[Lefein]

Jabcat: I don't believe God created the principle of Rot, or Death as it is ultimately the "Absence of God".  God is not about to create something that is absence of himself, as far as I know of him.  That would be abandonment, giving up, and worse disowning forever - something closer to Hell and Eternal Damnation than most of us realise.

It is not out of his control, because God can exercise control over nothingness by fighting it, and filling it with "thing".  God has such easy control over darkness, in his ability to fill it with light in the same way that a candle has such easy control over darkness by simply "being lit".  Darkness does not cast away light, light casts away darkness.

It is in God's full control, even if it is not of God's essence, or out of God that it "became" if nothingness can even "be" in any sort of sense.

If not, who said it would be that way?

Unchanging Truth, I don't think God decided at some point; "I shall be Love", he simply always was, and so Love is an everlasting truth, and with that everlasting truth came the inevitable result if that truth was not present in an individual, circumstance, or moment.  When ever you have something, it is a truth that you have something - and with it comes the inevitable possibility that once that something is removed, in place of that something is a "nothing".

It was not decided that if a something was removed (and not subsequently replaced by another something) that there would be nothing in its place, or else some third option that we can't conceive in this universe - it simply was, and is; if you remove something and don't replace it, nothingness is what is left.

So it is with Life, if you remove it, death and rot is what is left.  But God is in control, because he can fill voids where ever he chooses, and purposes to be all in all, filling all voids in all.

[jabcat]

Paul, I'll need to think about the first part of your reply some more.  Right now I don't see evidence in the scriptures that there's anything at all outside of God's control.

As for the last part, no, I don't think someone arguing ET and using the "God's ways/thoughts not ours" argument is valid to prove that particular point, because there are many other scriptural things that can be accessed to show ET is incorrect.  I don't approach that topic from either a purely logical, or emotional angle.  I believe the scriptures can be used to make the case.

What do you believe those scriptures are addressing in Isaiah 55?

[jabcat]

Lefein, I think I understand better what you're saying.  But right now, I don't see how ANYTHING can exist - even "absence" - without someone deeming it would be so.  I've been thinking, it seems like we can reason and reason, and make suppositions.  But what do the scriptures say?  I'm going to need to go back and really try to see what the scriptures support in this matter.

Right now, I believe they pretty clearly say God creates and uses evil, and darkness as well as light.  What I am open to is, what does that mean, what are the "best" interpretations, translations;  and then what does that entail, i.e., what does it look like.  And what are the differences between evil, sin, wickedness, etc. 

I'll probably shut this down for a bit, pray/meditate on it some, and perhaps chat more about it later.

Thanks to you both (Paul and Lefein) for the pleasant, productive, and stimulating discussion.   :bigGrin:

[Lefein]

And likewise to you Jabcat. Have a pleasant time with your Maker. :)

[jabcat]

:)  I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.

P.S.  If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em.   :mblush:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM

[shawn]

:)  I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.

P.S.  If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em.   :mblush:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM

:thumbsup:

Rely not on your own understanding.  There are several verses in the Bible warning us about our limited insight, intellect and understanding.  That doesn't mean I don't know some solid foundational truths about God directly from his word.  I don't have to reason my way there, just read.  The further we get away from that the higher the liklihood that we are incorrect.  Our reasoning will only get us so far.  The rest is faith.  I personally do not need to understand.  I have fallen in love with my Creator and he has revealed his nature to me personally.  What else do I need?

[Molly]

I have fallen in love with my Creator and he has revealed his nature to me personally.  What else do I need?

Nothing.  :Sparkletooth:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, I'll need to think about the first part of your reply some more.  Right now I don't see evidence in the scriptures that there's anything at all outside of God's control.

As for the last part, no, I don't think someone arguing ET and using the "God's ways/thoughts not ours" argument is valid to prove that particular point, because there are many other scriptural things that can be accessed to show ET is incorrect.  I don't approach that topic from either a purely logical, or emotional angle.  I believe the scriptures can be used to make the case.

What do you believe those scriptures are addressing in Isaiah 55?

Yes there is evidence James.

Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

The real issue is what that means.  I can use the phrase that God did not have control , but the implication is automatically negative.   It is good that God did not command them, it is good that it did not come up on gods hearts that they do it.  It is Good that God cannot cause evil if indeed he is responsible for our existance.  It means that what we are becoming is entirely pure and without question righteous.


And again in the Isaiah 55 what exactly are you referring to?   That his ways are not our ways?   If so, where have I ever doubted that God don't do things like us?  You are under the assumption that it means we cannot understand, I am not.  No where in the bible does it say we cannot ever understand.  No where.   Verses are used to posit that through inference.

You can say to me that I am not to lean on my own understanding, but that has nothing to do with a biblical application that I absolutely cannot understand.  My understanding is not dependant upon you understanding the same thing the same way and vice versa. 

[Molly]

The real issue is what that means.

It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god.  Many, maybe most,  still do, to this day.  And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The real issue is what that means.

It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god.  Many, maybe most,  still do, to this day.  And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Of course and God did not cause such a thing,

[Molly]

The real issue is what that means.

It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god.  Many, maybe most,  still do, to this day.  And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Of course and God did not cause such a thing,

I agree.  He didn't cause it.  They are coming up with heinous things that never even entered his mind.  They are doing things that grieve him.

Now how you fit that into a theology is up to you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The real issue is what that means.

It means, quite simply, that they are worshipping another god.  Many, maybe most,  still do, to this day.  And, we can see clearly what the fruits of that are.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Of course and God did not cause such a thing,

I agree.  He didn't cause it.  They are coming up with heinous things that never even entered his mind.  They are doing things that grieve him.

Now how you fit that into a theology is up to you.

That I agree with.

[Paul Hazelwood]

:)  I just want to clarify before I go for the night, I believe God cannot sin, there is no evil or wickedness or badness in Him, so I may end up having to trust Him that He knows exactly what He's doing, love Him and bow before Him, whether I can grasp it all or not.

P.S.  If anyone ever tells you they've got it all figured out, don't believe 'em.   :mblush:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM

Everyone can learn to trust for various reasons,  I disagree with my own son over some of these issues but I will not get in the way of his trust and certainly do not intend to slight his trust simply because I view God differently.

I agree not to trust someone who says they have it ALL figured out.  I don't have it all figured out, but that doesn't mean I am wrong on this issue either.  ;)

[CHB]

Does God Ever Lie?

Would God ever cause people to believe a falsehood – a lie?
 
While we are told explicitly that there are two things in which it is impossible for God to lie (that is in regard to his promises and oaths to mankind and to angels – Hebrews 6:18), God has caused people to believe falsehoods in the past. "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (I Kings 22:23). If people continue in wickedness and deceivableness, God will retort in kind (II Thessalonians 2:10) for we are told that God will also cause delusion in the future to the wicked. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11). Ernest L Martin

(Titus !:2) This verse has been shown to prove that God cannot lie, but take a look at what the verse is talking about. is that what it is really saying? No!! It is saying that God promised eternal life, or age lasting life before the world began and he will not change this. We have the hope that God did not and will not lie about this. Look at (Hebrews 6:18) That by TWO IMMUTABLE THINGS in which it was impossible for God to lie. God also created us who are the biggest liars of all.

CHB

[CHB]

The Purpose Of Evil: A.P. Adams

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

"If God's will has ever been thwarted we have no positive guarantee that it will not be thwarted again; if his plans have ever been circumvented, disarranged and upset the like may again take place; if evil has been more powerful than good at one time, or if God has been outwitted by evil or in any way hampered, constrained or limited by it at any time or under any circumstances, the like may again occur, and the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem, any more than the gates of Eden, may not be able to keep out evil, discord and death."

Amen FineLinen. Good to see you.  :bgdance:

CHB

[CHB]

I agree lomarah, some are just flat-out saying God DOES NOT do it.

Lef, do you think the same formula fits this scrip, including "cutting down" translation?

Amos 3:6
Webster Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

God set up the system of law that we reap what we sow.

So, you are saying that God does do these things after all?

CHB