End times?

[sparrow]

Yes really!
You cannot repent because the kingdom of God is coming. You can repent because it has come. Really.

Hey, that's pretty interesting Barry.
Food for thought. Thanks.

What is at stake here is how we see the world around us and how we see people around us. That is at least in part what is at stake here.

Yeah, this is true. :HeartThrob:

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Cardinal:

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

All of the above verse speak of the old covenant elements that were being taught to the Gentile Christians for them to obey. Paul is saying no you are not under the elements of the old covenant world.  

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The Hebrew writer is saying that we was going to have to recap all the old history of the livitical priesthood, tabernacle worship and all of the elements of the teaching of Christ that the law itself prophesied. These are the "elements" of the old covenant.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter is saying that the old covenant elements are about to be burnt up. He uses "elements of the heavens and the earth" and Paul uses the term "elements of the world". All speaking of the same things.
No where does the term refer to any other thing than the elements of the old covenant.

Blessings Barry

[sparrow]

Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.   
Barry

This makes sense.
hmm.  :Chinscratch: Must ponder.
Thanks!

[Barry DuPont]

Yes really!
You cannot repent because the kingdom of God is coming. You can repent because it has come. Really.

Hey, that's pretty interesting Barry.
Food for thought. Thanks.

What is at stake here is how we see the world around us and how we see people around us. That is at least in part what is at stake here.

Yeah, this is true. :HeartThrob:

Yes in deed Sparrow!!

After all why preach a coming kingdom that would never quite come.

And notice that the repentance was because of the fact that it was coming. The result of none repentance was losing everything they thought they had. And when did that happen?

They were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.

It is the revelation of God's love without condition that displaced and fulfilled the whole of the old covenant and the elements of the world.

Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

You are not following me at all on this one Cardinal.

That's an understatement.

The apostles were preaching the same basic message of repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus did. Of course repentance was preached.

Ok, let me get this straight. They preached repentance, the kingdom was at hand, but once it came, they didn't preach repentance anymore? So the ones that received the kingdom prior to 70 AD, really got nothing in your view, because the kingdom really wasn't there yet? Then that would make God a respecter of persons.

There is only covenant in actuality, the second did not negate the first, it fulfills it spiritually and reveals it spiritually.

That however was in view that the kingdom would be fully present once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.
Hope that clarifies for you.

Clear as mud.

Also as previously mentioned which no one has tried to tackle yet to my knowledge, it was not preached to the globe as we see it today, only to the world in question.
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.

Again, you've got the cart in front of the horse. Christ was the Head, and His kingdom which is His nature/Spirit, came SPIRITUALLY in the hearts of those that repented of their sins and received the HG, as the scriptures I posted above show.

It had nothing to do with whether or not an actual temple was still standing or not. He didn't preach, and the apostles didn't preach, "you can repent now, but you have to wait almost 40 years for it to take effect". That is ludicrous.

Additionally, you do know why they were called apostles and not disciples at a certain point, right? Because the "new" covenant church was built on the apostles and prophets, after the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY was rent and sanctified by His blood.

Which again, is the same pattern as the water baptism (likeness of His death) and then Spirit baptism (likeness of His glorified life/blood/life is in the blood).

The old temple was not the beginning of anything, but the natural manifestation of what had ALREADY happened in the Spirit. Christ is the Head, and the body (natural flesh realm as well) can only do what it sees it's Head do, even if only thru the fleshly efforts of viewing thru a glass darkly. Blessings..... 
Barry

Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services; 
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people: 
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect, 
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation. 
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come,

The outer still stood while the temple still stood.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant] he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away. 
What was about to vanish away and when?

Barry

:cloud9: And again, like the Pharisees, you think He was talking about the literal temple instead of the temple of His body. That they are connected is revealed by the fact the LITERAL veil in the temple was rent when He died, SHOWING that the way into the Holy place had been made ON THAT DAY.

Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched , and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer . 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not , saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest . 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith , A new covenant, he hath made the first old . Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

:cloud9: Notice above that He is the High Priest of the sanctuary, the true tabernacle (us) made without hands. Also notice that the priests served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things".

Also, that "waxeth old" is used two places only in there, and in the Hebrew part of it's meaning is "to move, proceed, advance", which it's obvious that happened as He was described as a SPIRITUAL High Priest, whose function was to offer up a sacrifice FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE. Our heart is the altar that takes place in, in the newly revealed covenant. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Barry, I already explained what the elemental things and the rudiments of the world were, in a previous post, as I said they were the things of the flesh of us which is said in Matt. 13 to be the "world" ie. us, the field where the good seed is planted. What I didn't get time to do was address your take on them melting, dissolving, ect.

Let's look at the same concept used in Isaiah.....

 Isaiah 34:3  Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be MELTED with their blood.   4  And all the HOST of heaven shall be DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall FALL down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a FALLING fig from the fig tree.

"Host" pertains to an army, angels, the WHOLE CREATION, the moon and stars.

Oddly enough, that word "melted" there also means things, like to faint, or be discouraged and fearful. Oddly personal characteristics for a covenant melting away, isn't it?

The word "dissolved" also has oddly personal characteristics in it's meaning, such as, to decay or pine away, the festering of wounds.

The word "falling" there also has personal characteristics, such as to be senseless, to be foolish, to treat with contempt.

As I've been saying, this is a PERSONAL Word, a SPIRITUAL covenant with a FRAMEWORK of letter. The letter is as the bones, the Spirit puts "celestial" flesh on those bones in this covenant, thru wisdom. A wise woman/soul builds her house with wisdom that is from above. Blessings....

[Molly]

They were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.

Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?


14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22

[Cardinal]

They were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.

Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?


14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22

:cloud9: That's true, Molly.........and again; there is no way into the Kingdom, which is not found with observation, except thru the picking up your cross and following Him thru the compartments of the tabernacle and let the Spirit do the works in you throughout the process.

When Satan spoke thru Peter, "Be it far from you Lord", he was responding to what Jesus said was the manner in which He would die, which was representative of the flesh things of man coming to an end in the death of picking up their cross and following suit. Blessings....

[reFORMer]

Romans 8:8-11 (CLT)...
8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
10 Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (YLT)...
Your own selves try ye, if ye are in the faith; your own selves prove ye; do ye not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, if ye be not in some respect disapproved of?

2 Corinthians 13:5 (AV)...
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 13:5 (CLT)...
Try yourselves, if you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or are you not recognizing yourselves that Christ Jesus is in you, except you are somewhat disqualified?

I was earlier asked what I thought "sin" was.  At the end of Romans 1 there is a list of "All Unrighteousness."  It also explains what happens to people of a culture who are turned over to reprobate minds.  Open and approved homosexuality is a significant feature of such condemnation.  It is God's judgement upon them.  Homosexuality is the judgment.  God judges not only persons, but tribes and tongues and peoples and nations.  If we are in the midst of a corporate judgement we better repent!  God can save us out of a city He is about to destroy...if...we find grace in His sight.  He is sending His angels to tie the wicked together into bundles to be burned.

Romans 1:24-32 (CLT)...
24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,
25 those who alter the truth of God into the lie, and are venerated, and offer divine service to the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for the eons! Amen!
26 Therefore God gives them over to dishonorable passions. For their females, besides, alter the natural use into that which is beside nature.
27 Likewise also the males, besides, leaving the natural use of the female, were inflamed in their craving for one another, males with males effecting indecency, and getting back in themselves the retribution of their deception which must be.
28 And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified (or, AV, "reprobate") mind, to do that which is not befitting,
29 filled with all injustice, wickedness, evil, greed, distended with envy, murder, strife, guile, depravity, whisperers,
30 vilifiers, detesters of God, outragers, proud, ostentatious, inventors of evil things, stubborn to parents,
31 unintelligent, perfidious, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them.

[Gilbert]

They were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.

Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?


14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22

Hi!
Just a hurried comment:
We would probably do well to note the distinction between "gates into the city" and those dwelling withing the perimeters/boundary of the city ... a similar distinction can be found between those dwelling within the walls of the city and those dwelling in the temple of the city.

[Molly]

Hi Gilbert, I hope you'll come back and go into that in more detail when you can.

11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.

That's beautiful!

[Molly]

One more quick note , want some "real" Spiritual eye openners?

www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/Justification

http://www.secretevangel.com/

Lee Damboise II

ok, i just tried the links and they don't work, google Adlai Loudy
# 4
# 7

(fixed your link, Lee - good articles [jabcat]).

I really enjoyed that article on justification by faith.  And, it gives me a better idea of what you guys are talking about.  I can't quite figure out where he gets his etymology but I really enjoyed what he had to say.

Here's an excerpt--


JUSTIFIED GRATUITOUSLY

But the grandest and most overwhelming thought of the whole subject is found in the word "gratuitously" of our text. "Being justified gratuitously by His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom.3:24). By the rendering put upon this word in our Common, or King James, version of the Scriptures, much has been lost of the exceeding riches of God's grace which He has been pleased to reveal to us right here. The original word is doorean. In our Common version it is rendered into English by the word "freely." But this word is entirely too weak and inadequate to express the depth and richness of the original. By going to John 15:25, we find the word used again by divine inspiration, but given a different rendering by our King James translators. Here we find it used with reference to the Jews hating Jesus, and they translated it, without a cause." And such is the meaning of this precious word. Justification on any other ground than the free and unforced favor of God, is impossible, for none deserve it. But now, in Christ Jesus, has been effected a deliverance from all condemnation and judgment, absolutely free to all who believe, and all "without a cause"--gratuitously.

ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD

This is great and wonderful and glorious, yet when we look into the etymology of this word doorean, we find still a more transcendent scope of richness than we have ever dreamed. By separating the word into its elements and assigning a standard English equivalent for each element, we get the literal meaning in a compound English word, viz., GIVE-GUSHED. Now this reveals in what way we are "justified." It is GIVE-GUSHED through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus. I believe this is the [most] glorious thought that ever came to me of how God saves the sinner. Justification with all its depth of richness in meaning is magnified and intensified by this precious word doorean. It means that God not only "justifies," but He "give- gushes" it on us. That is, He pours forth, in an extravagant display of affection, all His transcendent riches of grace contained in the meaning of the wonderful word dikaiooo. The sinner in dikaiooo is justified shown to be guiltless and blameless. He is acquitted--declared to be free and innocent; exonerated. And he is vindicated defended against all attacks and maintained successfully as right and just. And the glorious part about it all is, it is done "without a cause," "gratuitously." That is, it is GIVE-GUSHed--bestowed as an extravagant display of His love wherewith He loves us--"through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory, through faith in His blood)."

Such a deliverance, beloved, is entirely on the ground of grace, and bars all boasting unless it be in Christ and in His God Who has become our Justifier. Through our justification by faith in Christ Jesus, our Lord, we are placed in the unclouded favor of God, where "nothing consequently is condemnation" (Rom.8:1). What more could we desire? May He give us the grace to exclaim from the depths of our hearts, with the psalmist of old, "Praise the Lord, O my soul; all that is within me, praise His holy name."

[HartleyDamboiseII]

:cloud9: Really.......do you realize the baptism in water is for the repentance of sins, as in an outward show of what has happened inwardly, that of repentance, symbolic of being baptized into His death? And that Jesus told John, who didn't want to baptize him at first, that it was NECESSARY TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Since you refuse to acknowledge that Hebrews 10 tells us that the tabernacle is the pattern of things in the heavenlies, I don't doubt you can't see the relevance of it to believers today. However, this repent not doctrine is NONSENSE. Are you going to take all these out as well?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (WATER), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (FIRE)

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Notice in Acts 3:19 that they said "that your sins may be blotted out;" not that they already WERE.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent :

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (all men) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen , and repent , and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22 Behold , I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
   
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love , I rebuke and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent.

Being zealous, I might add, is not sitting back and saying I have all I need, because He did it all. Blessings....

Card, It is quite obvious that you do not have the eyes to see , YET.

hint"===      EVERY verse you Quoted was to a Jew, and or The House of Israel People or ( Scriptures) for them, Not the man of Grace....

IMO

[HartleyDamboiseII]

PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency in remitting guilt or the penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),

      Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision, concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory  (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27), imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT... These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...


Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy


       To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christaccording to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).

Lee Damboise II   :pitiful: That most are blind to some basic "God",
         

[reFORMer]

PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency in remitting guilt or the penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),

       Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision, concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory  (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27), imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT... These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...


Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy


        To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christaccording to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).

Lee Damboise II   :pitiful: That most are blind to some basic "God",
         

I do not accept the re-building of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.  The Bible does not teach salvation by different covenants, one to the circumcision and another to the uncircumcision.

Ephesians 2:11-22 (Concordant Literal)...
11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.
17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near,
18 for through Him we both have had the access, in one spirit, to the Father.
19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,
20 being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the capstone of the corner being Christ Jesus Himself,
21 in Whom the entire building, being connected together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord:
22 in Whom you, also, are being built together for God's dwelling place, in spirit.

What about making the two, those of the circumcision and the uncircumcision, into one don't you understand?

"For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier..." (Ep 2:14)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Gal 5:6, CLT)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Gal 6:15, CLT)

Romans 3:26-31 (Concordant Literal)...
26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law?
28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.
29 Or is He the god of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also?
30 Yes, of the nations also, if so be that God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith.
31 Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Romans 2:28-29 (Concordant Literal)...
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.

Racial dispensationalism is really a weird and unScriptural doctrine and in so many more ways than indicated in this post.  Another way of salvation based on what race you are born into?  You got to be kidding!  How I wish you were.  Just don't expect me to believe it.

THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL NOW!!!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The first "churches" were Jews that received their Messiah. We were grafted into THEM; that makes us one, and in a sense as we undergo the circumcision of our hearts, spiritual "Jews", hopefully of the variety that are virgins and have never known a woman (not joined to a harlot soul OR a harlot church).

Saying that the Jews only had to repent, contradicts scripture, and presents God as a respecter of persons and an uneven handling of grace. Grace and truth came thru Christ Jesus to ALL, and so they received it too, not just the Gentiles.

But it is not "greasy grace" whereby you can slide and do whatever you want to without repercussions, as was dealt with when they discussed "should we sin more that grace might abound?" (God forbid) and with Jesus who told the woman (church/soul) to "go and sin no more".

What I see in what Loudy wrote, is that "pardon" is a description of the outer court dealings, and that justification is a description of the inner court dealings. Which is why it says, called (outer court), justified (inner court), glorified (Holy of Holies). He saw two different realms there, but failed to see that they were 2 parts of a 3 part WHOLE. Blessings....

[Doug]

Racial dispensationalism is really a weird and unScriptural doctrine and in so many more ways than indicated in this post.  Another way of salvation based on what race you are born into?  You got to be kidding!  How I wish you were.  Just don't expect me to believe it.

THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL NOW!!!

Yes, I agree. Paul said the prophets are part of the foundation of the church, along with the apostles, and Jesus Christ the chief corner stone. [Eph. 2:20]

Since Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were called prophets, they are part of the foundation of the church. And the name "Israel" was given to Jacob in Genesis. So Israel is a label that properly belongs to the church, not the Zionist state in Palestine, or to unbelieving Jews, according to the NT. The name Zion or Sion in Heb. 12:22-23 is applied to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven." This is the same church that Paul speaks of in all his letters.

Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

There are not two "bodies" of Christ, or two "brides," but the "bride" and Christ are "one body."

Eph. 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Adlai Loudy said Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Acts were all "Circumcision" writings, as were Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, & 3 John, Jude, & Revelation. So he rejected all of those scriptures, saying they do not apply to us. Yet Paul said,

Phil. 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The only parts of the Bible that Loudy considered applying to us today were: Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, Titus, Philemon.

[The Word of Truth "Correctly Partitioned" by Adlai Loudy]

Loudy's doctrine seems similar to the ancient heresy of Marcion.

Here is what Loudy wrote about the book of Hebrews:
After Acts the next book, in order, of the Circumcision writings, is Hebrews. The name  and character of the book show beyond the question of a doubt that it was written to Israel. It speaks of "the fathers" (Heb.1:1)--and they belong to the Israelites alone--"covenants," and "priesthood," "kingdom," "etc.," which unmistakably label it for the people Israel, for the "covenants," "kingdom," and "priesthood...in both type and antitype belong to Israel and no one else, if we honor God's word above the traditions of Christendom. The "new" or "better covenant" is confirmed in chapter 8:6-12, which is for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." How a gentile can push in here and appropriate these teachings to himself, without divine warrant or authorization, requires more unmitigated presumption than we desire to possess.
   
Here are part of Loudy's comments on the book of Revelation:
We consummate our study with "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ" or Revelation," which is the last of the Circumcision writings. And, it is abundant with proof, to the discriminating reader, that it was written to the Circumcision. Everything is Jewish from the beginning to the end, with the nations subject to them. They are a "kingdom of priest" (Rev.1:5-6). The "ark of God's covenant" (Rev.11:19), which belongs exclusively to Israel is in view. And, the "holy city" is inscribed with the names of "the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel," and the "wall of the city has twelve foundations and on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lambkin" (Rev.21:12,13). Now let us take note of the fact that when "nations" are spoken of in connection with this city, they are always outside, and not in the city (Rev.21: 24-26). There is not so much as a hint, in all the word of God, that the nations will have any part in the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Further proof on this, that we, "the church which is the body  of Christ," have no part in this City, is the fact that the foundations of the city are inscribed with only the names of the "twelve apostles of the Lambkin." How shall we account for the omission of the other apostles from this honor? Paul and Timothy and Silas (1 Thess.1:1; 2:6) were regarded as apostles. Why  are they left out? And above all, any foundation which is supposed to support the church, must include the apostle Paul, through whom the "revelation" and all the truth concerning "the joint body- church" was made known (Eph.3:12). The absence of Paul's name (for he was not one of the "Twelve," Acts 2:14; 6:2, Paul having not been converted at this time) is proof positive that those to whom he ministered have no part nor lot in the "Holy City." It will contain "saved Israel," "the bride of the Lambkin." Our allotment, "the church which is the body of Christ," is "among the celestials" in heaven (Eph.2:4-7; 3:1-10).

http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/TheWordOfTruthCorrectlyPartitioned.htm

Loudy may have been influenced by the writings of certain German critical scholars, who taught similar things about an alleged division between Paul and Peter. Yet Peter specifically endorses all the writings of Paul!

2 Pet. 3:14-16
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Doug

[Molly]

I can see what Lee and Loudy are saying in the sense of before and after.  We start out at different places before but end up in the same place after.

I've never paid attention before to the different evangels in terms of the difference between them.  I'll pay more attention in the future.

I've always been impressed by Paul saying that the secrets kept from the ages are now made known to the Gentiles--in that God has skipped over the two thousand years of history between Abraham and Jesus to present the fulfillment of the promises to the real heirs of it--the children of the promise.  It's a surprise!


Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.



26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

--Col 1

[Doug]

PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency in remitting guilt or the penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),

      Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision, concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory  (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27), imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT...

Paul taught remission of sins.

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Oops, looks like Adlai missed that one!

These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...


Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy


       To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christaccording to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).

Yes we need to become part of the Israel of God as the promise, that "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" is made to Israel.  [Hebrews 8:12, 10:17]

As for Babylon the harlot, representing all false religion, God indeed remembers her sins.

Revelation 18:5
For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Doug

[Doug]

Hey Cardinal:

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

All of the above verse speak of the old covenant elements that were being taught to the Gentile Christians for them to obey.

Col. 2:20-22
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

They were evidently being taught to follow the Rules and traditions of the Pharisees, of which Jesus said,

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It was former Pharisees who believed, who wanted Gentile believers to be circumcised. Their rules prohibited Jews from associating with Gentiles. This is illustrated by John 4:9, "the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans."

The idea that Gentiles who became Christians should adopt Jewish ways was a "commandment of men," not of God. However, Paul taught believers from among the Gentiles to avoid idolatry, and fornication, and to keep the commandment to "honour thy father and mother."

1 Cor. 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Thes. 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Col. 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Eph. 6:2
Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

The above scriptures relate directly to the first, fifth, seventh, and tenth commandments in Ex. 20.

Paul is saying no you are not under the elements of the old covenant world.  

For Paul, the gospel was incorporated in the promises made to Abraham, which is what he referred to as the covenant, rather than the ordinances of sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, the tabernacle, etc. They came long after the "covenant."

Galatians 3:16-18
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The Hebrew writer is saying that we was going to have to recap all the old history of the livitical priesthood, tabernacle worship and all of the elements of the teaching of Christ that the law itself prophesied. These are the "elements" of the old covenant.

See above. The law is distinct from the covenant. Otherwise, why would Paul say: "the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul..."?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter is saying that the old covenant elements are about to be burnt up. He uses "elements of the heavens and the earth" and Paul uses the term "elements of the world". All speaking of the same things.
No where does the term refer to any other thing than the elements of the old covenant.

Blessings Barry

"Elements" in those days were fire, water, air, and earth. Peter said the heavens would pass away with "great noise." And the heavens of that day were the starry firmament, a rigid spherical shell around the earth, and the planetary spheres, all revolving around the earth. These have indeed all passed away with great noise or commotion. No one believes in them any more. The rigid heaven was demolished and became obsolete when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth in the scientific revolution. And the church and the scriptures were discredited, because the church condemned Copernicus and Galileo and other astronomers. It was a historic commotion that continues today! So Peter's prophecy was fulfilled, in about the mid-eighteenth century AD.

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER.  

A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH  knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...

You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian ,  But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.

             Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...

And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.

But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.

But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.

Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.

The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5

Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...

Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.

Matt. 15:24  Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"

and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.

Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...

What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????

so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.

Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX"  the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time.   I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision


Molly, Thanks for you help and support .

ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.

But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.

I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.

Lee.

[Doug]

I can see what Lee and Loudy are saying in the sense of before and after.  We start out at different places before but end up in the same place after.

Not according to Adlai Loudy. He thought that Jews and Gentiles have separate eternal destinies. The Jewish believers (the "bride") inherit an earthly kingdom, while Gentile believers (the "body") end up "among the celestials" in heaven. See his comments on Revelation in my earlier post.
   
Hmm..  how would that apply to Gary Amirault and his wife, who is Jewish? Presumably Gary would be off "among the celestials," while Mrs. A. remains here on earth!

I've never paid attention before to the different evangels in terms of the difference between them.  I'll pay more attention in the future.

Hmm.. "different evangels" is indeed what dispensationalism is about, especially ultradispensationalism. But Paul said there is only one gospel of Christ. It applies to both Jew and Greek. One gospel, but there are many distortions and perversions of it.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I've always been impressed by Paul saying that the secrets kept from the ages are now made known to the Gentiles--in that God has skipped over the two thousand years of history between Abraham and Jesus to present the fulfillment of the promises to the real heirs of it--the children of the promise.  It's a surprise!


Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The same gospel that was preached to Jews, was also preached to Gentiles, who became part of "the circumcision" when they believed! [Phil. 3:3]

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

--Col 1

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Doug, what you said about A Loudy is correct, although he does believe that All end up in one place per-say, God. When all is said and done. the Biggest problem with A. Loudy is that he speaks of a Word By Word study, and does not say like most preachers today, that later on it has a connection to later verses or age, or has the same meaning throughout the bible, although in differant books written by differant writers, "Scriptures" and he don't seperate carnal and spiritual by words most readers understand. He expects the reader to know that words have meaning, and everywhere carnal and spiritual are used, in almost all words. give or take. and not pick and choose.

There is much more but I have to go for a while.  Lee

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: OF COURSE we started out as "two"; that is what the gospel addresses, the two are now made ONE. The veil of partition was rent the day He died, and they all had to be taught exactly what that meant to each group of people.

This doctrine of separation of Loudy's falls short for several reasons, not the least of which is this. Everything pertaining to the Jews revolved around the moon cycles, ie. a lunar covenant. The moon is representative of the woman, the "lesser glory", and they and all others who have not heard the call to come up higher, are the "bride" of the sons of God He is raising up, as soon as they are of a "mature age", which will not be much longer, I assure you.

They will hear the call to "leave father and mother and cleave unto their wife", for it is not good for man to be alone. We have already left father (those ruling over us; pastors, the letter of the law, ect.) and mother (those giving comfort; church, ect.) and are only waiting for the call to "cleave".

Or did you think He was raising up mature sons in His image again, so they could die without declaring His generation, ie. producing SEED/a son with a "wife"? Joseph means, "God will add another" and the "another" is Benjamin, which means, "the SON of my RIGHT HAND."

Jesus who ascended sits at the Father's RIGHT HAND, because that is His station and portion of glory, ie. the Father's right hand, and praise God He has gone THERE to prepare a place FOR THE SONS, that where He is, they might be also. And so it says, the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY that is getting ready to be revealed IN US. THIS, is why Christ in you, is the hope of glory.
In their marriage customs, the son goes to get the bride and BRING HER TO HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, ie. bring her to same place as He is, the RIGHT HAND, but the Father tells him when to go get her.

So they are already "betrothed", which then was as binding as already being married, and to suggest otherwise is to "put asunder what God hath joined together", and is an antichrist spirit, for Christ IS both male and female, spirit and soul, Jew and gentile, sun and moon in likeness of glory.

"Not discerning the Lord's body is why there are so many sick and dying among you", the discernment of which, is the ROOT OF UR.  Blessings....

[Doug]

Doug, what you said about A Loudy is correct, although he does believe that All end up in one place per-say, God. When all is said and done. the Biggest problem with A. Loudy is that he speaks of a Word By Word study, and does not say like most preachers today, that later on it has a connection to later verses or age, or has the same meaning throughout the bible, although in differant books written by differant writers, "Scriptures" and he don't seperate carnal and spiritual by words most readers understand. He expects the reader to know that words have meaning, and everywhere carnal and spiritual are used, in almost all words. give or take. and not pick and choose.

There is much more but I have to go for a while.  Lee

The law of Moses contained "a shadow of good things to come," but was unable to justify or bring righteousness. But those things became a reality for the first century church. [Heb. 10:1]

This may be helpful:

The Relation of the Old to the New Dispensation
by Joseph Addison Alexander
The Biblical Repertory and Princeton Review Vol. 23 No. 4 (1851) (Page 649)
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/JAA_ROND.html

Doug