End times?

[Doug]

Hbr 2:2   For if the word spoken by angels {the law} was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 
Hbr 2:3   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

So if they neglected in their conscience so great a salvation by neglecting the sin sacrifice of Christ wherein there was not going to another they were then remaining in sin conscience willfully and would then die the second death in conscience when they felt abandoned and forsaken by God when their city and temple were being taken away. 

It was all about the consience under law. 
Blessings Barry

The verses from Hebrews quoted above say that the gospel of salvation was first taught by Jesus, and confirmed by those who heard him, which refers to the apostles.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The righteousness of the law, Paul said, is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

There is no truth in the doctrine that the law passed away in 70 AD. Heaven and earth did not pass away as the hyper-preterists say. Paul explained how the law is fulfilled. It is by us loving our neighbours. Not because it has passed away!

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The law, Paul said, was a schoolmaster, as it teaches us what sin is. And when we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No, that experience is meant to prepare us for life as an adult.
   
The gospel of our salvation, taught by Jesus and the apostles, is "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints," that Jude said we should earnestly contend for. [Jude 1:3] And the holy city, the New Jerusalem, and the bride of Christ, which represents the saints, has in it the names of the apostles.
   
If we follow those who contradict the apostles of Christ, we are deceived. Paul specifically declared the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus, who said the resurrection is past already, to be profane, and an error. [2 Timothy 2:16-18] And John said,

1 John 1:5-9
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

These words are true. Evidently some were claiming to be sinless already, misunderstanding the truth of the gospel, contradicting the apostles, in the age of John. Or else, why would he need to write these things? To us, it is obvious there was much ignorance in that age. They thought the heavens revolved around the earth! The Romans used lead for plumbing! Etc. etc. Sin free? Ha ha! And in our age, those who claim to be "sin free" would never pollute the air, or the environment, would they? And every word they say or write would be absolutely true, right? Their doctrine implies that they are the oracles of God! After all, they allege they are "sin free" now.

James said,

James 1:26
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Love rejoices in the truth, Paul said.

1 Corinthians 13:5-7
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

The truth is, in this life, the saints are always "striving against sin," [Hebrews 12:4] and the flesh wars against the spirit. [Romans 7:23]

Doug

[Doug]

I am really kind of getting a kick out of the lack of understanding I see in "some" posts,

• Do human kind ever get sin free in this life while Christ Lives in YOU??

This is what we strive for. It is the goal.

Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
   

• Are YOU reconciled in this life or the next, i.e. Even being Spiritually Reborn IN Christ while in this terrestriel form.

Yes, Jesus promised to give us the Spirit that leads us to the truth and gives us understanding. If we follow him, we are among his sheep.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.   

Being like sheep is not like being like a horse.

Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

I understand the horses and mules in Zechariah's prophecy, who are in the tents of the armies fighting against the saints, and who are struck by plague, as symbolic of those who lack understanding. [Zechariah 14:15]

I find it strange that %99.9 % of UR's believe like the "Churches" believe, that Jesus is a failure and did not kill death, bring in immortality to all mankind.         How strange.

Lee
[/list]

Jesus is the only one who has attained immortality.     
   
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.    

He is the firstborn from the dead.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Doug

[Doug]

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  
  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.  

Sin conscience is an outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is an inner court teaching.

The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!

The temple of God in the verses quoted above, Revelation 11:1-2, represents the church, and the kingdom of God, of which the apostles and prophets are the foundation. Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:19-22
So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;
in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

James Burton Coffman's commentary says of this prophecy:

"Temple of God" in this passage is impossible to accept as a reference to the literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem, called by the Son of God himself a "den of thieves and robbers." That an angel of God should have been concerned with having John measure that desolation (Matthew 23:38) is inconceivable. "It scarcely seems possible to doubt that temple here is used figuratively for the faithful portion of the Church of Christ." In fact, the word here rendered temple is actually sanctuary (ASV margin), "The Greek word [nous] means the "holy house, where God dwells ... The use of [Greek: nous] here for the thing to be measured makes a literal interpretation of temple impossible."  "For John, the temple is the Christian Church, the people of God."  "This sanctuary symbolizes the true church."

John was told to leave the outer court that was given to Gentiles unmeasured. It is the saints of God that John wanted to describe, or measure, in his prophecy. The saints are the ones represented by the temple itself, and its stones and pillars. The two witnesses in this chapter, that are killed by the beast, represent the scriptures and the holy Spirit, that are depicted as corpses left unburied in the street. Jesus identified the scriptures and the Spirit as two things that "testify" of him, so they are two "witnesses". One who "testifies" is a witness.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures, for in them you think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The great city in the prophecy is not Jerusalem, as Jerusalem represents the saints, who the Gentiles tread under foot for 42 months. [vs. 2] The great city called Sodom and Egypt is symbolic of the entire world, or human society, as both Sodom and Egypt represent places from which God's people escaped.
   
The Gentiles trample the saints, and occupy the outer court of the temple, which accurately depicts Christendom today. The saints who are trampled include the apostles, and the prophets, who are the foundation of the church.

Now let's look at Barry's claims about the above scriptures and 70 AD. He thinks the covenant and the law were done away, and "all that was written" was fulfilled then. He seems to be a follower of Max R. King, the notorious hyper-preterist, who proposed these doctrines. They misunderstand the words of Jesus, who said all will be fulfilled in "this generation." Jesus of course, is part of that generation, and he remains alive, having risen from the grave on the third day. Hyper-preterists stumble upon his words.

Notice Revelation 11:19:

And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

What is the significance of the ark of the covenant that is seen in the temple? The temple represents the saints. The ark within it can only mean that the new covenant is being fulfilled in them! And this agrees with what Paul said.

2 Corinthians 3:2-6
2 Ye are our epistle, written in our hearts, known and read of all men;
3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh.
4 And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John's prophecy in Revelation 11 shows that the covenant is not abolished, but confirmed to Christ's saints. He does write his laws on our hearts!

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Doug: you have a talent with words, I once had a Baptist friend who was just a "Little" more talented, but he could make every thought he thought line up with every "thought" he "thought" was right, or 'God Spoken' as he thought.

So IF you ever find that sin free life 'in this life' then you may have some inkling of where I am coming from, until then, you will never " ' Know ' "

" When you are made Vivified (Alive ) in the only person that has immortality, then you will understand that sin free LIFE.

Sorry that we are worlds apart in understandings, truly God Bless

Lee Damboise II

[Molly]

Jesus is the only one who has attained immortality.     
   
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 

But, Jesus tells us that so shall we if we believe on him.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?



John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.



We are also told that Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers.


Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.



And Paul uses the same Greek word, athanasia, when he tells us--

1 Corinthians 15:53: "this mortal must put on immortality."

[Doug]

Jesus is the only one who has attained immortality.     
   
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 

But, Jesus tells us that so shall we if we believe on him.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

We are also told that Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And Paul uses the same Greek word, athanasia, when he tells us--

: "this mortal must put on immortality."

Yes, but when do we receive this immortality?

1 Corinthians 15:12-23
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It is to occur for us at his coming. At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.

Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Also David was said to be still in his sepulchre. Yet he is one of the saints, and a prophet.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

If they are immortal, when did that event occur?

Doug

[Molly]

It is to occur for us at his coming.
At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.

Jesus did not give that caveat.  He was very clear in responding to the Sadduccees who said there was no resurrection, that they are alive--



26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

--Mark 12

It is to occur for us at his coming.

But, when might that be?  Might it be different for different people?  Paul tells us as much.


23 But every man in his own order:...

[Doug]

It is to occur for us at his coming.
At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.

Jesus did not give that caveat.  He was very clear in responding to the Sadduccees who said there was no resurrection, that they are alive--



26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

--

It is to occur for us at his coming.

But, when might that be?  Might it be different for different people?  Paul tells us as much.


23 But every man in his own order:...

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Looks like (1) Christ; (2) they that are Christ's, at his coming; (3) "Then cometh the end." And so the last one must include the resurrection of the judgment.

Perhaps this is what he meant by "every man in his own order."

The last, the judgment, is also the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14. That is when "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," come to the "living fountains of waters."

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Well personally, Hope you are filled with your thinkings !
But for this son of God, His coming (appearing) has come, appeared and dose appear each and every day I look at my reflection, I see HIM.

second rezz, done, over, I AM alive fore ever ,  immortal.

so if you have an issue with me being sin free, I am sure you would not of believed HIM either. And you would be trying to teach Him too. 'teach him that he is a dead creature walking around this world of dead people'.

Sad to hear of this sad condition, dead people.  The only requriement of this life is that you believe you are alive fore ever in Christ now on earth and you are, or you can just continue in unbelief and find out when you get home. Or you could make a BIG  differance in mankind, i.e. show that life to others and that is what Grace is....     (Bible Grace )

[Doug]

But for this son of God, His coming (appearing) has come, appeared and dose appear each and every day I look at my reflection, I see HIM.

Not me. I look in the Bible. :Sparkletooth:

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

second rezz, done, over, I AM alive fore ever ,  immortal.

I'm holding out for something better...

so if you have an issue with me being sin free, I am sure you would not of believed HIM either. And you would be trying to teach Him too. 'teach him that he is a dead creature walking around this world of dead people'.

Sad to hear of this sad condition, dead people.  The only requriement of this life is that you believe you are alive fore ever in Christ now on earth and you are, or you can just continue in unbelief and find out when you get home. Or you could make a BIG  differance in mankind, i.e. show that life to others and that is what Grace is....     (Bible Grace )

I don't think Jesus went around saying "I'm sin free!" But he did good works, that showed God was with him. Jesus said those who do the will of His Father are wise, but many will be disappointed when they are told by Jesus, "I never knew you."
[Matthew 7:23]

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Doug, That's your problem, you think your right about "at the last day",  YOUR still stuck in the rapture lie taught by the Church or parts of it and don't know the Last day is when YOUR last day comes, here and now.

                 You keep holding out      to a  dead end. I will see you when you join Us.

JC never said he was sin free because He was under the Law and he could not reveil this to unbelievers and he had not YET bought back mankind from the ruler    'death'.... Lee

[Doug]

Doug, That's your problem, you think your right about "at the last day",  YOUR still stuck in the rapture lie taught by the Church or parts of it and don't know the Last day is when YOUR last day comes, here and now.

In each case where John uses the phrase "the last day" he refers to the resurrection, not a person's death. In the case of Lazarus, he had been dead already several days. So it refers to the last day yet to come at the end of the age, the time of the judgment.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

                 You keep holding out      to a  dead end. I will see you when you join Us.

JC never said he was sin free because He was under the Law and he could not reveil this to unbelievers and he had not YET bought back mankind from the ruler    'death'.... Lee

It was the Pharisees who were self-deluded about being "sin free."

Luke 18:10-15
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Oh but they were not wrong, because at the time that their high priest went into the temple once a year for their sin, they were sinfree for a nono second. but only a very short time did they remain clean.

give or take.

I do realize that you have a belief system that is not mine, and "I" feel that this is ok, I have no problem with that. Just remember tho that your typed words will not change the facts of Who I AM or What I have Become IN Christ. I will eternally stay away of the valley of the Dead. Spiritually of course.

[Doug]

Oh but they were not wrong, because at the time that their high priest went into the temple once a year for their sin, they were sinfree for a nono second. but only a very short time did they remain clean.

give or take.

Not even that, according to the author of Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:3-4
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The function of the sacrifices, ritual washings, etc., was to depict the need for some remedy for sin. It was to remind them they were sinners in need of a savior.

I do realize that you have a belief system that is not mine, and "I" feel that this is ok, I have no problem with that. Just remember tho that your typed words will not change the facts of Who I AM or What I have Become IN Christ. I will eternally stay away of the valley of the Dead. Spiritually of course.

The apostle John gives us a balanced view; no need for self-delusion. Rather, the opposite. 

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Doug

[Molly]

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the
resurrection at the last day

.

We see that Jesus is frustrated at this answer from Martha.


25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

---John 11



Is the last day and the day of his coming the same day and the same day for all people?



1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Mal 3



In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to be wrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING.

--J. Preston Eby

[sheila]

   Eby's post was beautiful,Molly. Thanks for posting it.

     Yes, it is wonderful to be a son/daughter of God and to

   come to know of your inheritance of eternal life.


   However, that is just the beginning. He refines,

  chastises,reproves,rebukes, removes erronous teachings and

doctrines...so you may be presented spotless and blameless at

His coming of the last day.


   If you beleive[erronously] that your already there, then you

end up in a spirtual condition like the church of Laodicea.

  'I am rich, I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing,

but you do not realize that you are wretched.pitiful,poor,

blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined

in the fire,so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear

so you can cover your shameful nakedness and salve to put on

your eyes so you can see.


  TO WHOM I LOVE I REBUKE AND DISCIPLINE

   SO BE EARNEST AND REPENT.

   HERE I AM...I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK

  IF ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR

  I WILL COME IN AND EAT WITH HIM

  AND HIM WITH ME


   To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on

my throne, just as I overcame, and sat down with my Father

on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear

what the spirit says to the churches

    He syas He will always be with us..He comes to us,again and

again, to do for us what we can not do of ourselves..

and there is a time when He will appear to us..'seperate'

from sin. And when that time occurrs we will be able to stand

in HIS TRUTH AND PURITY..Free from all the spiritual maladies

outlined in His address to the Seven churches

 
    Lee, I rejoice with you in  your sonship, but dear brother

your not finished yet. Coz it's not over til it's over.

  And your about to get an education like you wouldn't belive

   And HE DOES THIS TO EVERYONE HE RECEIVES AS A SON

[sheila]

  Isaaih 53;9

   HE WAS ASSIGNED A GRAVE WITH THE WICKED

   AND WITH THE RICH IN HIS DEATH

  THOUGH HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE

  NOR WAS ANY DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH


   You know, when were born again of the spirit, we are

  in His image...and we also are assigned a grave with the

  wicked[our body undergoing this death with sin in it]


  Though the child of God be blameless that is born in us..

  it is 'bearing the sin"

   by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many


  v12 therefore I will give him a portion among the great,

  and he will divide the spoils with the strong

  because he poured out his life unto death

and was numbered with the transgressors,

and this is their vindication from me

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen to you, ladies...... :thumbsup:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Truly Shela  thanks, I will never be there all the way till we are ALL back in the father, As a whole in one

[peacemaker]

(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1672/1672704hwdhhfn2oy.gif)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Cute PC but I always figured you more of the dove type  :winkgrin:

[peacemaker]

An event comes from how it is perceived, which creates the context.

Harmless as a dove, but wiser than a serpent.  :mblush:

[Doug]

Is the last day and the day of his coming the same day and the same day for all people?

1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Mal 3

Peter calls the believers "a royal priesthood," [1 Peter 2:9] and the priests were supposed to be from the tribe of Levi, so the sons of Levi in verse 3 above could be taken as a metaphor representing the saints. In that case, Malachi's prophecy may be fulfilled throughout the entire history of the church. But, as John says, he who has an ear, let him hear.

There are many ways to avoid understanding it in that way. Preterists probably apply it to events in 70 AD, and I think dispensationalists would say it applies to Jews in the Millennium. I would ask them, how could the literal "sons of Levi" be identified, and made genetically pure again? They have intermarried with Gentiles for thousands of years!

Malachi's prophecy above can be compared with this one by Zechariah, who uses the same metaphor of refining gold and silver. 

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD. 

The apostle Peter compared the trial of our faith to gold.

1 Peter 1:4-8
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

IMO, "at the appearing of Jesus Christ" seems to refer to the time of the resurrection of the saints, the seventh trumpet, yet to occur in the future, and perhaps the event described here:

Revelation 14:14-16
14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Yes, the messages in Revelation to the 7 churches also indicate that Christ comes in many different ways and at different times. 

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:16
Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:25
Nevertheless that which ye have, hold fast till I come.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:11
I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.

Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to be wrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING. [/i]

--J. Preston Eby

Doug

[Molly]

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD. 

That's interesting.  The sheep were scattered, and continue to be scattered.  So, when will they be brought together as one?

[Doug]

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD. 

That's interesting.  The sheep were scattered, and continue to be scattered.  So, when will they be brought together as one?

The prophecy of Ezekiel 34, I think, addresses your question.

Ezekiel 34:12
As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

So it is in the cloudy and dark day, which is how the prophet Joel describes the day of the Lord, [Joel 2:1] and also Zephaniah, [Zephaniah 1:15] Amos, [Amos 5:18] Zechariah, [Zechariah 14:6-7] etc.

Incidentally, the scattering need not be geographical. It could also refer to the scattering of the theological views and interpretations of the saints.

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Doug