End times?

[Barry DuPont]

Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:

the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth)  is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.)  But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.

Lee

Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)

It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.

The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.



Barry

As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away.  Fulfillment does not equate with elimination. Scripture teaches God's Law Word is written in various modes of revelation.  One is in nature.  (Ps 19:1; Rm 1:19-21)  An example concerning trees I excerpted from another writing to some friends follows...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God sows gold, silver and precious stones.  These are gifts of His Spirit, His word and His nature in His imparted presence.  What God gives may be improved, as gold is purified in fire and jewels are cut, polished and set.

What man sows is wood, hay and stubble.  Those long generational things involving the span of a man's life or more are the trees.  The first Psalm has us as the "trees of righteousness, the transplanting of the LORD" upon which the fire of God's manifesting presence falls.  The wicked are the thorn bushes.

In the days of Eden it was trees of Life and of the knowledge of good and evil.  In Noah's day it was "Gopher" wood (for the ark.)  We come to Abraham and it was the Terebinth or Oaks of Mamre that represented God's people.  [But, because you saw an oak, it should alternatively be considered that the oaks of Bashan are the of the opposers of Israel.  The bulls of Bashan surrounded Jesus on the cross. [Ps 22])  When Israel came out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness it was the Acacia (for the Tabernacle.)  When they first entered the land of promise it was the Palm.  The married seeress that judged all Israel, Deborah, sat under a Palm tree.  In the days of David it was the Cedar (of Lebannon.)  The temple period was represented still by the Cedar, as well as the Olive, and Cypress.  The next two are problematic.  In the days of Elijah it was possibly Tamarind, and, at the point of (not Israel's, but) Judah's deportation to Babylon, Jeremiah 24 compares those God will destroy and those He will save by two baskets of figs, one good and one bad.  In the restoration, the post-exilic period of outward humility but inward glory it was the Myrtle.  The New Covenant is the Mustard and Olive.  Conclusions?

The acacia, whose wood blackens with age, was used for the ark of the covenant, all lined and covered with gold.  This has long been seen as the humanity Of Christ, filled and covered with God.  The large ancient oak is our present generation, those "gentiles" round about who are of the "old man" of Col 3:9 that we have stripped off with it's practices, and there are many of them.  "...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:9-11)  There is a new generation by God Who is going to do a new thing.  What is to be set before us are those things which are above, not the ancient (old) humanity.  As a prerequisite to appearing with Him in the Glory we are to be disposed to those things not of the earth but the new, up over all, where Christ sits in the right of God.  (cp., Col 3:1-4)

That was an excelent post Reformer.
You have effectively trased down to at least one of the sourses of the foundemental difference that exists between our understandings of scripture.

You cannot have biblical time restraits or the "end" because you don't see the end around you. It's obvious that the natural exists around you so the bible could not be speaking of the end.

There is a covenantal creation that is not defined by the physical elements.

Gal 4:2   But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 
Gal 4:3   Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 

Neither they nor us were ever under bondage to physical creation.
On the contrary we are wonderfully made and the Universe is a woderful creation.

Gal 4:9   But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 
Gal 4:10   Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 
Gal 4:11   I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:17   They zealously affect you, [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 

Gal 4:22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 
Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 
Gal 4:24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 
Gal 4:25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 
Gal 4:26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

It is then impossible to accept that the Jerusalem that then was is no more. 
Because covenant creation is see to be physical creation or Universal creation.

Gal 6:12   As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 
Gal 6:13   For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 

In the flesh is not the inherent status of the physical. "In the flesh" is the inherent status of an independent human potential.
This imo is the fatal flaw of interpretation which is derived from a physical verses spiritual dichotomy. Wherein the physical is seen to be anti-spiritual. Itself only a biblical "type".

Wherein humanity is inherently condemned by token of the very environment of God's creation. Which of course is "very good".

The presumption then is that God had no real agenda for humanity itself. Humanity has to hope because humanity is inherently bound to a world of types. The world really cannot become a better place and no real lasting improvements can be had because there is inherently no potential within for that to happen.

Not that such a potential would exist independently of God but that God will do nothing with it because it is but a type and but a figure. The conclusion then is that Humanity has no hope because God clearly has no intention of ever doing anything with humanity.

There is clearly a micro cosmos of "covenant creation":
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. 

And it is this that Paul focuses on in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 
Rom 1:17   For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;



The subject matter is what has been revealed "from faith to faith". Hebrews chapter 11 is a prime example of "faith to faith". Faith as recorded in what is written and their faith then in their time. From figures to fulfillment.

This is what Paul himself focuses on in the coming chapters. The faith of Abraham and other and their responce to the "faith of Christ Jesus". Paul goes from "faith" to "faith".

The subject matter is what has been revealed in what has been written concerning covenant creation.
Rom 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

He is very clearly I might add, speaking to those who "knew" better about idols as God had revealed it to them.

Rom 1:21   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 
Rom 1:22   Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,  Rom 1:23   And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 

This is not the peoples of none covenant creation whom God had "winked at":
Eph 2:12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Paul is speaking about the people of covenant creation who:
"God hath shewed [it] unto"
"neither were thankful"
"when they knew God"
thus, "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God"
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie"
whom God then, "gave them up"
"as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge"
"covenantbreakers"

Because the invisible things of God which were manifest in the visible things of "old covenant creation" being types and figures of good things to come.

The subject matter is not that Adam brought the universe into a state of entropy!!! The subject matter is not how the whole of God's tent that He stretched out as a tent to dwell in got messed up by Adam and now he has to destroy it all.

All things which people are willing to believe in their attempt to harmonize a philosophy of physical verses spiritual.

The amount of personal subjectivity needed in the interpretation of scripture to attain to a harmony based upon a physical verses spiritual dichotomy.

Now this does not say that the physical creation has nothing to say about God. I know that. It's just not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
Types and figures are part of old covenant creation as defined in the scriptures, and are not to be defined by the physical creation.

Are we merely physical beings? Of course not, for Man shall not live by bread alone.
By the same token "abundance of life" is not defined by post-mortem continuity.
And the eternal life that is spoken of in the scriptures is believing. That is what it is.

This imo bears repeating:
As long as one is stuck in types and figures then one cannot arrive at the "perfect" on a personal experiential level (between the ears).
The perfect is the perfect knowledge of how we are known. How we are known is in love without condition. The partial passes away.
The historically fulfilled revelation of love without condition is the end of types and figures which were there as a school master. They are not defined by the physical but rather in the independent human potential which finds its limits in the natural.
With men nothing is possible, with God all things are possible. 

The Jerusalem that the scriptures speak of ended. The temple that the scriptures speak of ended. Making everything new is a new beginning, not the same old whops and twists and hurdles that the transition of the ages embodied.

There is a "covenant earth" in scripture. It is the independent human potential within the precedence of old covenant types and figures that existed in both the absence of and in view of the coming historical revelation of love without condition.

The end is every bit as historical as the cross.   

My conclusion is that you have an historical cross but you do not have an historical end.

Instead an immortalized Adam,
An end that never ends.
A old temple that still has standing.
An old Jerusalem that then was and still stands either forever or until the end of the Universe that God created.
Animal sacrifices that are still valid in the precedence of types and figures that still stand.
A levitical priesthood that then still exists.
A terminal generation under the law which never ends which means the law still stands.
A resurrection out of the physical instead of out of our independence. 
And so on and so on.

Now it should be obvious to you that none of this makes any sense to me whatsoever. And I mean from any and all angles that I've looked at it. 
Now if it makes sense to you then I actually have no criticism of it. Why criticize what someone believes in. It is there belief. And that is your business not mine.

In the end all that we can do is communicate with each other what we ourselves see. And hopefully do so always the while, loving each other. God stands so very far above any measure that we would and thus should not use either toward or against each other.

And that actually is the only thing I'm interested in getting at. And that imo is compatible with my present understanding of eschatology. My interest is not eschatology. It is love without condition.
As a friend of mine recently said, "It's not that we have grasped God, but that God has grasped us through Christ".

That is my stance.

Are we going to agree anytime soon? I doubt it. Do we have to? I doubt it!

Love ya Barry

[Cardinal]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

:cloud9: You know when you love someone even in the natural you find yourself over time liking the things they like, and disliking the things they dislike. For me, it was reading Proverbs chapter 1 for the first time early in my walk, after a dream I had about someone else, that helped to turn my already present desire to know Him intimately and to understand His principles, into a deeper study of the Word. Loving "foreign" languages probably helped, too. But that's just me. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.

[sparrow]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

:cloud9: You know when you love someone even in the natural you find yourself over time liking the things they like, and disliking the things they dislike. For me, it was reading Proverbs chapter 1 for the first time early in my walk, after a dream I had about someone else, that helped to turn my already present desire to know Him intimately and to understand His principles, into a deeper study of the Word. Loving "foreign" languages probably helped, too. But that's just me. Blessings....

Hi there Cardinal... I don't think you understand what I was saying. No big deal.  :HeartThrob:

[sparrow]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.

Hey there,
That doesn't make sense to me.
If all loved each other unconditionally... then all would finally reflect God's love.
We would all FINALLY have gotten through His refiner's fire so that we are a mirror finish and reflect HIM.

peace.

[Beloved Servant]

No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?

I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?

The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.

Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.

Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"

just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.

peace..

Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.

Hey there,
That doesn't make sense to me.
If all loved each other unconditionally... then all would finally reflect God's love.
We would all FINALLY have gotten through His refiner's fire so that we are a mirror finish and reflect HIM.

peace.

And even if we could bring the generations to LOVE, we would still produce death. People are born and then die. Only the Spirit kills death. Not our willingness to love others.

[sparrow]

No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.

Who said anything about doing this on our own volition??
I am talking about HIM working THROUGH us.
But how is that truly happening if everyone is so busy endlessly debating all day about stuff that perhaps isn't as important as we think it is.
That was my whole point behind my original post.

[Beloved Servant]

Well, perhaps it is very important to others and that you may not need the milk of the Word as Paul said. Many need to move on to the meat of the story.

[Taffy]

No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.

Who said anything about doing this on our own volition??
I am talking about HIM working THROUGH us.
But how is that truly happening if everyone is so busy endlessly debating all day about stuff that perhaps isn't as important as we think it is.
That was my whole point behind my original post.

This is the era of Pentecost..God is simply Not saving all SOULS within this age...maybe that why Paul mentions Creation Groans, and NOT JUST SONS ... awaiting the Manifestation of HIS SONS... for mine - Romans 8 sums it up well..isnt it HIM who drags Men Unto HIM, we all begin as babes and progress , lest Paul would have  said just Believe, your now mature and Ill see you when we receive our new bodies.



Its His work and Plan for the salvation for all...each in HIS appointed order

just my two pennies Sparrow

[Barry DuPont]

Thank you everyone concerned in allowing me the opportunity and honor to exchange ideas and thoughts with you all.
It has been very helpful to me to and hopefully I'm not the only one.

Have to get back to other things now.
God bless you all.

Barry

[Beloved Servant]

G'day mate.

[Taffy]

Dont go to far Barry , come back soon :icon_flower:

[sparrow]

Well, perhaps it is very important to others and that you may not need the milk of the Word as Paul said. Many need to move on to the meat of the story.

Beloved... Just say what you mean. What is this supposed to mean?
What is the "meat of the story"? Is it not LOVE?

Taffy... not sure what you mean by your post either in relation to what I am talking about.

[Beloved Servant]

Of course it is love, never to think otherwise. Outside of the face of Christ fulfilled; we are not capable of the true nature of the Word.

[sparrow]

Of course it is love, [/quote]


That's not the way it seems with what you said earlier.

never to think otherwise. Outside of the face of Christ fulfilled; we are not capable of the true nature of the Word.

What is "the face of Christ fulfilled"?  :dontknow: What does that mean to you?
What are you trying to say?

[Beloved Servant]

Well, of course, that's John 12.
"Lord, we want to become acquainted with Jesus."

[sparrow]

Ok, beloved... I don't think we are on the same wavelength right now so to speak... because what you are saying is not making sense to me in reply to what I have said.

Perhaps we can talk again on a different day and perhaps we will understand each other a little better.

Peace to you.. and I hope you have a nice night.

[Beloved Servant]

I will, and I pray the same for you sparrow alone upon the rooftop.

[sparrow]

I will, and I pray the same for you sparrow alone upon the rooftop.

Thank you.. :HeartThrob: I appreciate that.

[Beloved Servant]

I AM sure you do.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just a "few" comments here, Barry......sorry about the length, but I did cut it down, believe it or not.

Wherein humanity is inherently condemned by token of the very environment of God's creation. Which of course is "very good".

:cloud9: Did you miss the part where after He said in Genesis it was very good, that He still destroyed it with water? It has nothing to do with the outer environment of man, but of man's flesh, as defined by the works of the flesh...

The presumption then is that God had no real agenda for humanity itself. Humanity has to hope because humanity is inherently bound to a world of types. The world really cannot become a better place and no real lasting improvements can be had because there is inherently no potential within for that to happen.

Not that such a potential would exist independently of God but that God will do nothing with it because it is but a type and but a figure. The conclusion then is that Humanity has no hope because God clearly has no intention of ever doing anything with humanity.

:cloud9: He said He would destroy it again, only with fire. Humanity in and of itself has no hope, our hope is in Christ and Christ in us, is our hope of glory. There is NOT ONE THING that humanity can do to improve themselves within or without, ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HOLY GOD, which is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT, add one cubit to our stature. Our stature is measured by CHRIST alone. Man always attempts to change himself from the outside in, thru his own efforts/works of flesh combined with the carnal mind, which is ENMITY AGAINST GOD.

God, on the other hand, changes us from the inside out, beginning with the inward anointing and then via the Holy Ghost (fire that destroys OUR WORLD) which does the works, and the mind of Christ, which is, among other things, our interpreter of the Word. This is why it says the Word is of no private interpretation, because the Spirit interprets that which It wrote. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, explains exactly how the field the good seed (Christ) is planted in, IS THE WORLD He's talking about.

There is clearly a micro cosmos of "covenant creation":
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

:cloud9: And again, because the OT and it's types and shadows point to Christ and His works, the HG puts His words in our mouth, and covers us in the shadow of His hand.

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up , take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak , neither do ye premeditate : but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.  

:cloud9: The word "covers" there in Isaiah means to clothe as for protection or conceal, which is why it says our life is HID in Christ, and the baptismal covering is what does that.

"Shadow" there in Isaiah comes from a root word that means to also to cover for protection and to "hover over", as in when the Spirit hovered over the face/nature of the waters in Genesis.

"Hand" there speaks of strength and works, and His hand IS as the HG who dispenses Himself in portions of HIMSELF to us on the day of Pentecost, if so be it, we have experienced Pentecost. In fact, what it is, is God with His hand, dug Himself a well in our earth and found water.

In short, He is doing a NEW CREATION, that only began in the first century, and culminates in a man who is not subject to death anymore. The purpose of the earnest coming upon the flesh man, is to PRESERVE him long enough for God to finish the work in him so that he can overcome the last enemy, which is death. To be carnally minded IS, or produces it's own nature, which IS DEATH.

His "hand", which is Christ in the measure of the 5 fold has been busy in these 2 days or 2000 years, "planting" heavens (mind of Christ) and laying foundations (restoring of the apostle and prophets, the foundation of the church) in preparation, of the "new earth" (the coming glorified bodies).

And it is this that Paul focuses on in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  
Rom 1:17   For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.  
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The subject matter is what has been revealed "from faith to faith". Hebrews chapter 11 is a prime example of "faith to faith". Faith as recorded in what is written and their faith then in their time. From figures to fulfillment.

This is what Paul himself focuses on in the coming chapters. The faith of Abraham and other and their responce to the "faith of Christ Jesus". Paul goes from "faith" to "faith".

The subject matter is what has been revealed in what has been written concerning covenant creation.
Rom 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

He is very clearly I might add, speaking to those who "knew" better about idols as God had revealed it to them.

Rom 1:21   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  
Rom 1:22   Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,  Rom 1:23   And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

:cloud9: Actually, it is not JUST talking to the former Jews, as the previous portion you omitted shows.

Romans 1:14  I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15  So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17  For therein * is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written * , The just shall live by faith.  

18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.   20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

:cloud9: His wrath was not revealed from heaven against the Jews only, and this bolded above is not a comment about linear time, as in, from the creation or beginning of the world, these things about his power and Godhead are seen, but a better way to phrase it would be this.......

From the creation (itself) of the world, the invisible things of Him, even His eternal power and Godhead, are seen, and so all are without excuse, including the Greeks and Barbarians, which is why it says.....

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psalms 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.


:cloud9: In fact, if you go to Romans 1:25, you see that He is saying what was worshiped, which goes along with the first part talking about about those peoples that worshiped creatures or natural creation, which is what that word there means in Greek. They had also started worshiping times, days, and seasons, which a great many worship today still, ie. astrology, the worship of the creation again.

In short, they have faith in the thing created, but no faith in the Creator that created the thing. Not all were Jews to begin with, so their faith to faith was not one of OT types and shadows, to NT covenant, but one of creation to NT covenant. The creation also mirrors the tabernacle pattern which reveals His glory; it is as His "wife/helpmeet", for "she" came out of Him,  and reflects His glory, just as the moon (lesser light) reflects the glory of the sun (greater light).

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The amount of personal subjectivity needed in the interpretation of scripture to attain to a harmony based upon a physical verses spiritual dichotomy.

Now this does not say that the physical creation has nothing to say about God. I know that. It's just not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
Types and figures are part of old covenant creation as defined in the scriptures, and are not to be defined by the physical creation.

Are we merely physical beings? Of course not, for Man shall not live by bread alone.
By the same token "abundance of life" is not defined by post-mortem continuity.
And the eternal life that is spoken of in the scriptures is believing. That is what it is.

:cloud9: And again, what are you believing FOR?

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

:cloud9: Notice that this was written to the SAVED church of the Hebrews. Again, we are saved, spirit (outer court), soul (inner court), and BODY (Holy of Holies).

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our BODY.

:cloud9: Notice that these are saved (Passover/outer court), have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Pentecost/inner court), yet they are STILL waiting for something, and they plainly state what that is.

1Cor. 15: 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.   50  Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot * inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.   51  Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all * sleep , but we shall all be changed ,  52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed .  53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.   54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory.   55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?   56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

:cloud9: Notice that there are two groups of people here. (1)Those that are literally dead/corruptible and in a grave, and (2)those that are literally mortal. Those that are literally dead/corruptible shall put on incorruption, AND those that are literally MORTAL shall be CHANGED to put on immortality. It does not say those that are mortal, DIE, and THEN put on immortality.

This imo bears repeating:
As long as one is stuck in types and figures then one cannot arrive at the "perfect" on a personal experiential level (between the ears).

:cloud9: The perfect is not arrived at between the ears. Even if you have all the doctrines down to a "T", God the Father still has to call you beyond the veil. It is set up that way, so that no man can steal His glory and say they did it.

Knowing ABOUT His love by mere mental assent from doctrines and posturing to perform it thru the direction of the carnal mind which is death, is NOT the same as BECOMING His love incarnate, which is His ultimate goal, ie. a many-membered body of Christ in our "earth" that is MANIFESTED/REVEALED, that has overcome the last enemy.

The carnal mind's ideas on what love is, are contaminated because to be carnally minded IS death, and under the types and shadows you want to do away with BEFORE they have fulfilled their perfect objective of tutoring you into perfection by the direction of the Spirit, if a priest came in contact with a dead body he was unclean for 7 days.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The laws that went along WITH that tabernacle, likewise speak of heavenly things. Like it or not, the "perfection between the ears", makes us unclean, until the hand of the Spirit passes over us 7 times or fulfilled 7 days of the Lord, a day being like a 1000 years. That there is still a priestly nation, though a spiritual one is spoken of here.....

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Perfection is found ONLY in Christ (as in mortality being swallowed up of immortality), who is the 7th day, of no part darkness. Adam, who died, is the "head" of a many membered body on the earth, who made us "unclean" by reason of "touching" ie. being one with that body.

This is why John was beheaded, and also why death reigned until or up to the end of the covenant of Moses, because the new covenant offers us the the possibility of a new Head. And if a new head, then the body MUST follow suit, or He is a live head on a dead body. Which is why He said He had no where to put His head, but the foxes (carnal minds) have holes (us).

Numbers 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.

As I said, Adam is still very much "alive". His body is not relegated to the past.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We are in the 7th day from Adam, and the 3rd day from Christ. Christ said, tell Herod that fox.......in the 3rd day, I will be perfected. We know He was not referring to Himself only as the Head of a new creation man on the horizon of God's timetable, but also to a perfected body.

Herod the fox, is a type of the carnal mind that steals the "grapes" of His people that are called to be crushed to produce the new wine of His Kingdom. He does this, by offering them a false feast of tabernacles in I Kings 29.

 1Kings 29:31  And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. 32  And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar.

:cloud9: The feast there that is being done, wrong method, wrong place, and at the wrong time (a month too late), by the evil king Jeroboam (another type of the carnal minds of men) who devised it in his own heart (mind) to keep the people from returning to the house of David, was the feast of Tabernacles.

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn , and he will heal us; he hath smitten , and he will bind us up.  2  After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up , and we shall live in his sight.   3  Then shall we know , if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. 

:cloud9: You can't return to a place you've never been before. We walked with Him in the cool of the day before, and we shall do so again. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Wonderful Cardinal.
Thanks for sharing A MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN THE PLAN OF GOD.
SAVING ALL THROUGH THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS IN CHRIST JESUS.

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Cardinal.
A few very quick points.

Quote:
Did you miss the part where after He said in Genesis it was very good, that He still destroyed it with water? It has nothing to do with the outer environment of man, but of man's flesh, as defined by the works of the flesh...
End Quote.

Imo not the point.
It was that "world of the ungodly" that was destroyed, not the universe not humanity.
These are covenantal statements and must be understood covenantally.
2Pe 2:5   And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly  

Are you saying that your position is that what God called "very good" is not still here?



Quote:
 He said He would destroy it again, only with fire. Humanity in and of itself has no hope, our hope is in Christ and Christ in us, is our hope of glory. There is NOT ONE THING that humanity can do to improve themselves within or without, ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HOLY GOD, which is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT, add one cubit to our stature. Our stature is measured by CHRIST alone. Man always attempts to change himself from the outside in, thru his own efforts/works of flesh combined with the carnal mind, which is ENMITY AGAINST GOD.

God, on the other hand, changes us from the inside out, beginning with the inward anointing and then via the Holy Ghost (fire that destroys OUR WORLD) which does the works, and the mind of Christ, which is, among other things, our interpreter of the Word. This is why it says the Word is of no private interpretation, because the Spirit interprets that which It wrote. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, explains exactly how the field the good seed (Christ) is planted in, IS THE WORLD He's talking about.
End quote.

So God can change one person at a time He just cannot change the world? Interesting that He has those limits in place.

The wheat and the tares is about the old covenant world the covenant earth that was seeded.
What NO ONE is going to get out of is that Jesus said that "all nations" and the "whole world" would have the gospel preached to them and then the END would come. Paul said that that had ALREADY BEEN DONE when he wrote his epistles. That world was not the globe that you are claiming it is. And there is nothing that any one can say to get out of this very clear problem. And this then changes presumed interpretation of "world" in Matthew chapter 13. It bears repeating. NO ONE is getting out of this clear biblical fact. IMO it is present and should be accounted for.
Only in reading into the scriptures one's own meanings and one's own agenda can we make the "world" of Matthew chapter 13 our present global world.
I wrote about this before, I don't think anyone answered.

Quote:  
Actually, it is not JUST talking to the former Jews, as the previous portion you omitted shows.
End quote.

Beside the point imo.
It doesn't have to be only the Jews that Paul was then preaching the gospel too within the confines of the world that he is speaking of. As that was the present events that were then happening.
This does not change that Paul is then from verses 18-32 speaking of the first "faith" time frame in his "faith to faith" points. IE, 18-32 is past events not his then present events.
Preaching the gospel to the gentiles was present events.

The covenant breakers he is talking about is the old covenant people not the whole world as you seem to be thinking of and not universal creation either. It is covenant creation not universal creation that Paul is addressing. This is imo abundantly clear in the context. He is clearly speaking of people that were in covenant and thus then knew God and knew what to do and what not to do.

Unless one can go through the context and explain how everyone in the global world had been covenant breakers then the point imo is quite clear.

The "elements of the world" that Paul wrote of was the law and the prophets.

The basic premise that I'm reading seems to be that God created the Universe for no other reason than this tiny little speck called earth. I thought he created it as a tent to dwell in. I think we always think we are at the very center of everything until we are proven wrong once again and then we go onto the next "center of the Universe" thinking until that one is proven wrong. But that's jmo.

Blessing to you
Barry  

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Thank you Barry, well spoken, I could go much deeper into this thinking, but a good part of the Body would even be more lost in the light that they do have.

Lee