End times?

[Lupac]

I have a question that's been bothering me for a while. I'm new to this board, and was never taught anything in my church about the "end times", so all I know is what I've read and heard. Okay, here it is. I read L Ray Smith's "When the towers fall" paper. About how the World Trade Center attack signals the feared "end times" that a lot of Christendom is up in the air about. This is one of the points I disagree with Ray, but I want your opinion.

Do you believe we're living in the "end times"?
What do you believe about the "end times"?
When do you think the "end times" will be here?
What exactly will happen, anyway?

Thank you all again. I've been doing so much better since I've been coming here. The question about the end really bothers me. One reason is I think it's because I'm still very young. (Only 18) If I was older, (say, 50 or so.) I don't think it would bother me so badly. Thanks.

[Gab]

People have been claiming that we're in the end times practically ever since Jesus was crucified and resurrected.  I personally remain very credulous towards the idea that now, nearly two thousand years after the resurrection and ascension, is the time when Jesus will finally return.  Jesus is described as coming tachu (Revelation 22:7), a Greek adverb that is used to denote immediacy, something that will happen very soon.  Other verses in which this word is used imply that there will be or ought to be no delay at all before the fulfillment of the statement:

"Make friends quickly (tachu) with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison." (Matthew 5:25)

"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly (tachu) bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet'" (Luke 15:22)

"And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. 'The Teacher is here,' she said, 'and is asking for you.' When Mary heard this, she got up quickly (tachu) and went to him." (John 11:28-29)

His coming is further described as eggus (Revelation 22:10), a Greek adjective translated as "at hand", or "near" - something which will imminently come to pass, when used in reference to time.  Again, all instances of this word in other verses imply that what is described is close:

"Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is near (eggus) ; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."' " (Matthew 26:18)

Ask yourself: If I leave you, and then I call you a short time later to tell you that my return is at hand, but then I do not return until two thousand years later, would you see nothing amiss with this at all?  Or would you tell me that I had lied in my description of my return?  You would, I think, surely do the latter - which makes it seem rather strange, to me, that so many do the former when considering the possibility of Jesus having still to this day not returned.  The Old Testament describes many things as taking or happening over a long period of time - periods of time that one would surely assume to be longer than the intervening time between now and something that is described as "imminent", "soon", or "at hand" - and yet those periods of time are far shorter in length than two thousand years.

As for what to make of this, I'm not sure.  Some believe that Revelation was written only a short time before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that the prophecies within were all fulfilled following that event, and believe that the second coming of Jesus was spiritual in nature rather than Jesus literally physically returning to Earth.  I don't really know what I believe in this area - but I do know that the wording in Revelation pretty much completely rules out for me the idea that Jesus' return was promised to happen some two thousand years after it was written.  I know that there are many who fervently disagree, though.

At the end of the day, I believe that all we really can do is to love one another and to allow the love of God to inhabit our hearts.  Whether or not Jesus is going to physically come back in the near future is really just not something that I spend much time worrying about.  If he does, he does; if he doesn't, he doesn't.

[Raggedy Anne]

Lupac,

Do you happen to have a link to that paper of LRS's about the Towers?  I don't think I've ever seen it before.

Thanks,
Anne

[jabcat]

Hi Anne.  Not Lupac, but it's just a little ways down on L.Ray Smith's home page, http://www.bibletruths.com/.  I've looked at it, and I guess have mixed feelings about it. 

[noname]

I'm familiar wit that L Ray Smith article...and think there could be some truth to it

if we look at the prophetic books talking most about "end times" ie Daniel and Revelation, there are a lot of signs to look out for to recognise these "end times"

the prophetic books also say that the signs would be like the birthpangs of a pregnant women...ie the signs would increase over time in intensity

one of these signs would be wars and rumours of wars...
if we look at the major wars being fought today ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan...some of them have been fought longer than WW1 and 2 and Vietnam for that matter...there are numerous wars and clashes happening all over the world...the new one just started in Yemen

one other sign would be all nations of the world would be governed by a world government...
Europe and the US is already tied together through NATO and also by European banks owning the Federal reserve...
in fact, the whole world is tied to the dollar as the de facto world currency in some way

the signs also include extreme weather changes on earth, which has been picking up in frequency over the last few years ie tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes...

also, the signs would also appear in the people of the world...it says that humanity's love will wane and grow cold...that violence and strife would increase, people would become selfish and lover's of self...

in Timothy we also find this about the last days:

Godlessness in the Last Days

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

I think we should all judge for ourselves and discern the signs, but I for one believes that we are pretty close to those last days

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Lupac,
Here is my take:
Do you believe we're living in the "end times"?
No. We are in the new age.

What do you believe about the "end times"?
End times is the study of "last things" or "eschatology". It's not the "end of time" but rather the "time of the end".
It is the old covenant heavens and earth that the bible foresaw. The end of the old covenant age. The fulfillment of types and figures.
If the end has not yet been realized then types and figures are still valid and the law is still valid and the Jews then are still under the law.

When do you think the "end times" will be here?
The end of the old covenant took place in AD 70 when old Jerusalem and the temple made with hands were destroyed.
God does not live in temples made with hands, he dwells in peoples hearts.

What exactly will happen, anyway?
The end of types and figures signified a marriage between God's possibility and human potential.
The old covenant was all about an independent human potential.
Christ was the last Adam.
The death that Adam was told about was to happen in the day that he eat. That day that time ended with Christ the last Adam.
Adam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.

To frame this very briefly:
God is love. The overwhelming and overriding constraint of love is to share. But this takes a lot of time to do well, and do properly. It takes history, and patience. And that is what is happening. God sets things up so he can share with his offspring. We tend to get impatient either because we miss the big picture or because we get programed into thinking that the journey is simply unfair.

JMO
Blessings Barry

[Molly]

Adam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.

Not exactly, although he is waning and, I trust, will soon become obsolete.



2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

[Barry DuPont]

Adam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.

Not exactly, although he is waning and, I trust, will soon become obsolete.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Hey Molly,

"In Christ" is a term that describes the application of the applied meaning of the then coming new age within the transitional body of Christ. They were as ones "in Christ" living by the applied meaning of the "good things about to be".
Just as those during the time in the wilderness looked upon the bronze serpent and lived. (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9, Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 "in the day of trial in the wilderness",1 Cor. 10:1-13)
Just as Noah and his family entered into the ark. 1 Peter 3:17-22.

Phl 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,  
Phl 1:4   Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,  
Phl 1:5   For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;  
Phl 1:6   Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:  

Phl 1:9   And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;  
Phl 1:10   That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phl 3:6   Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.  
Phl 3:7   But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.  
Phl 3:8   Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,  
Phl 3:9   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:  
Phl 3:10   That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;  
Phl 3:11   If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.  
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  
Phl 3:13   Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  
Phl 3:14   I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  
Phl 3:15   Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.  
Phl 3:16   Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.  

So they were living by the applied meaning, ("have this mind") of the then coming new age, in full expectation of the consumation of the old within their possible lifetime. The consumation of types and figures.
Blessing to you
Barry

[Livelystone]

Hi Barry

Nice post and there are not any "and buts" however for the seed that is Christ to bring forth "the same man" that ascended unto heaven who is the "word made flesh" to ever walk on earth again that seed that has to first mature into a full fruit baring  "tree of life"

That is perfection in the form of the "perfect man" that will never come to past unless the man who is not yet perfected by God has the knowledge spoken of in the first three verses of Hebrews 6....... how much of that knowledge can be truly had without possessing the same knowledge as Paul and the others is only for our Father to heaven to determine.

Still the fact remains until the rains that come down from heaven in the form of blessings and heavenly knowledge that seed will never mature into the fullness of the mind of Christ in man until given unto us from Heaven.

I do agree with your use of "continuance" simply because there is a world of difference before Christ in us becomes us in Christ.

Blessings

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
Thanks very much for the exchange of ideas and views.

I do not believe that Jesus is going to walk again on this earth in a physical manifestation. I do not believe that the second appearance in scripture has anything to do with another earthly ministry.
Though he is with us all now. "Coming" means presence or arrival.
My view is to fully and completely accept the generational time restraints that are given throughout the new testament. They are both harmonious and relentless.

I do not beleive that we are being perfected.
We are the benefactors of the perfection of the saints (believers of the first century, the bride).
They are the bride we are not. We are the children of that marriage. We thus cannot have their perfection or their inheritance.
We cannot overcome the world. They already overcame it.

We are in the process of learning these truths. It is my view that when we persist in putting ourselves back into their setting an position we tend to neglect our moving forward from our position.

We are not overcoming the old covenant world. Everything has already been made new. End times are behind us. IMO its time we started moving forward.
A revelation of God's love without condition has been fully realized. The substance is here.  Types and figures have passed away.
Adam was a type. Christ is the last Adam.

What defines the meaning of "Adam" or "the flesh" is the absence of this revelation on a historical basis. It is what Adam did not have. So then Adam was a man of mere "flesh" in the absence of a revelation of God's love without condition. In this then he eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and died.
The tree of life is the revelation of God's love without condition. This has been given and is fully realized in human history. Christ was the last Adam.
We now mature and grow as the children of the "marriage".
We grow in and mature as the benefactors not the inheritors. As benefactors our potential is unlimited. And we are just beginning to see this.
Because unity is not made it is realized (between the ears). We are one and God is one.


Many blessings to you
Barry

[sparrow]

Hey Doug,
Thanks very much for the exchange of ideas and views.

I do not believe that Jesus is going to walk again on this earth in a physical manifestation. I do not believe that the second appearance in scripture has anything to do with another earthly ministry.
Though he is with us all now. "Coming" means presence or arrival.
My view is to fully and completely accept the generational time restraints that are given throughout the new testament. They are both harmonious and relentless.

I do not beleive that we are being perfected.
We are the benefactors of the perfection of the saints (believers of the first century, the bride).
They are the bride we are not. We are the children of that marriage. We thus cannot have their perfection or their inheritance.
We cannot overcome the world. They already overcame it.

We are in the process of learning these truths. It is my view that when we persist in putting ourselves back into their setting an position we tend to neglect our moving forward from our position.

We are not overcoming the old covenant world. Everything has already been made new. End times are behind us. IMO its time we started moving forward.
A revelation of God's love without condition has been fully realized. The substance is here.  Types and figures have passed away.
Adam was a type. Christ is the last Adam.

What defines the meaning of "Adam" or "the flesh" is the absence of this revelation on a historical basis. It is what Adam did not have. So then Adam was a man of mere "flesh" in the absence of a revelation of God's love without condition. In this then he eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and died.
The tree of life is the revelation of God's love without condition. This has been given and is fully realized in human history. Christ was the last Adam.
We now mature and grow as the children of the "marriage".
We grow in and mature as the benefactors not the inheritors. As benefactors our potential is unlimited. And we are just beginning to see this.
Because unity is not made it is realized (between the ears). We are one and God is one.


Many blessings to you
Barry

Barry, This was excellent! I have to tell you, this is an area that's always been unsettled for me, but my thoughts on this all pretty much line up with what you have just said here.  :idea2:  Hmmm. Very interesting. I think that's the first time anyone has ever said anything that actually made me sit up and take notice on a conversation about "end times". Good stuff. Thanks for posting this.  :hihat:

[Livelystone]

Hi Barry

What happened the the manifestation of sons  :sigh:....... something that had not yet happened to Paul who with all the blessings on him still spoke of himself as one "born out of due time" that translated means a premature birth

Paul spoke of himself as a premature example that of a ministry and a people whose time has had not yet come. We have all been given the power to become the sons of God and not just those who were the first to hear the Word....... Jesus made that very clear!

Also Jesus said His Body, (the temple made without hands) would be perfected on the third day and not on the first day.

As he condemned  those who said the resurrection was already destroying the faith of some I sincerely hope our differences is in me not understanding what you are saying rather then understanding it very well but so strongly disagreeing with you  :mshock:

Blessings

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Doug.
I find it a blessing that you speak both gently and yet frankly. Thanks again for the exchange of views.

"As he condemned  those who said the resurrection was already.."
Yes because it was then not yet.
The reason why these Judaizers were teaching this is because they taught that the old covenant was not going to end.
They taught law keeping including food and drink matters and circumcision to keep the law and that the temple was not going to be destroyed. I believe that delving into the context will indeed indicate the above points.
By teaching that the resurrection was already, they were teaching that the law was not going to end. "See the temple still stands!!"

Interestingly enough Paul did not defend against this false teaching by saying, "Look out the window, do you see a new world out there??!"
If Paul was teaching what people today teach about end times then Paul certainly missed out on using his best argument. "Do you have your eternal spiritual body yet??!" "Did the graves all empty out??!".

This text is actually a very good indication that their expectations were nothing like ours today. It is not a good indication that peoples expectations are the same as Paul's. This text is actually another indication that they were then waiting for it and the Judaizers just got it wrong because of their other agenda to teach the confidence in the law.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 
Rom 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[What would be revealed and what would be made manifest is two ways of saying the same thing. The old covenant creature and the old covenant creation as a whole awaited this revelation.]

Rom 8:20   For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, 
[Both Adam and Israel as hubs of the old covenant order.]

Rom 8:21   Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[At the end of the old covenant creation all are delivered or saved from the law. See 2 Corinthians for the changeover of covenants, from "glory" (ministry of death and condemnations which was corruptible and passing away) to "glory" (of the new order, new covenant world)]
Rom 8:22   For we know that the whole creation [old covenant] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 
Rom 8:23   And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.


That's the firstfruits of the same harvest! The "they" and the "firstfuits" are of the same harvest. The firstfruits is the very best taken from the harvest and offered as a sacrifice which then followed immediately with the general harvest.
In Revelation this is the first and second resurrection. The firstfruits lived by the applied meaning of the good things about to be.
The end of that age was manifest by the end of old Jerusalem and the end of the temple that then stood. This we have enormous harmony and consistency on.

I'm sure that this does not answer all of your concerns or your points. It's just a way to quickly put forward a few points from my perspective. If we don't see eye to eye that's ok. But it's great to discuss these things too.
Many blessings to you

Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Sparrow.

Personally speaking, I'm very excited.  :bgdance:
While we might have some rough times ahead, still great things are happening.
If I'm correct the Internet (as we know it) is only about 16 years old!!!! Unbelievable how fast things are moving.

So here we are talking about our heavenly Father and hope and love and and the future. :)
Did I say that I'm excited?
Barry
 

[Livelystone]

Hello Barry

Yes I can be both frank and respectful at the same time and IMO when anyone fails to do so no matter the subject at hand the possibility of that individual representing any part of the hopeful future for mankind ceases to exist. Simply put it is a basic requirement for any meaningful discussion to take place.......... Fair enough?

I have spent some time reading your posts starting at #5 before making this reply. I had noticed your posts before this thread and took note of what I liked as well as what I did not like about your concept of God and His plan for man. I see a lot of love in your words and that is good because without love we miss the marks of compassion and charity that are essential ingredients of the Christ life. Unfortunately even though love covers a multitude of sins it does not make up for that lack of knowledge that we are consistently warned of being the one reason of why God's people perish and miss out on the inheritance reserved for them. Simply put without the vision and knowledge of the truth God's people will not be able to endure and finish the race that will allow Christ to be formed in them. It is God alone that will bring man to perfection but there are requirements that need to be fulfilled before one goes from one glory unto the next and that final glory made available to us is unobtainable without knowledge of the truth.

IMO the most common reason for failure to obtain the knowledge needed is not adhering to the simple command of our Lord that we should live by every word that comes from God and not to overlook any word and especially one that contradicts any given message on any subject that is a sin in God's eye (Lev. 5:1).

All of the Bible has one purpose and that is to serve the intent of God for man to become more than what he already is through being created in His image but also for man to come forth in the exact likeness of God. Any doctrine that does not fall within that perimeter or supports a doctrine contrary to those perimeters may be dismissed as heresy. In all of history there have been only two created men of which only one is in both the image and likeness of God. However it is God's stated purpose not to bring forth just one but many sons prophesied by the omer of barley unto the same fullness and glory that Jesus Christ still holds today. Until that happens the greater works not yet done will never come to be.

The Scriptures have been written for all up but especially for those who are here for the ushering in of the third day. Paul made it very clear that he had not yet apprehended who had apprehended him yet still lived his life as if he had (Phi. 3:11-13). It is not just Paul who waits for Christ to be formed in us (Gal. 4:19) but also Jesus Himself  (He.10: 12-14) who has yet to give out the grand prize of the morning star to any man (Re.2: 28) despite that being His and the promise of God way back in Ge.1: 26.

He is the author and finisher of our faith and to Him alone do those who belong to Him turn their ears to hear. Consequently I am not overly concerned of your doctrine or that of any other one else swaying those who are chosen but instead I simply pray that the chosen have the strength to prevail until the end.

As Paul said when he spoke of all great people of faith who had not yet received the promise yet witnessed miracles, went and gave their lives so that we would have them to hold in remembrance when this cold hostile world tries so hard to overcome us.

For sake of bandwidth I will just suggest the reading of all of Hebrews 11

Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
Thanks for the reply bro.

No biblical author speaks of any subsequent generation or generations coming into "perfection".
The perfection was that of the "firstfruits" sacrifice. This brought into perfection those who had lived and died under the old covenant (Heb. 11)

It was that very generation that was being perfected and this is something that they knew.

Phl 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,  
Phl 1:4   Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,  
Phl 1:5   For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
{Clearly the very people and church of this very time, no any subsquent generation}
Phl 1:6   Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Paul's expectation is clearly generational not multi generational.  

Phl 1:9   And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;  
Phl 1:10   That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;


Quote:
Unfortunately even though love covers a multitude of sins it does not make up for that lack of knowledge that we are consistently warned of being the one reason of why God's people perish and miss out on the inheritance reserved for them. Simply put without the vision and knowledge of the truth God's people will not be able to endure and finish the race that will allow Christ to be formed in them.
End quote.

This perfection in question is that of the firstfruits. Taken from Galatians chapter 4 it is over-against the influence of the Judaizers who taught another gospel of returning back to the elements of the old covenant world.

Gal 4:10   Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.  
Gal 4:11   I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


Gal 4:19   My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,  
Gal 4:20   I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.  
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?  
Gal 4:22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  
Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.  
Gal 4:24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.  
Gal 4:25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.  
Gal 4:26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.  

Contextually then, the formation of Christ in them was clearly linked with the casting out of the bond woman that still was in the Jerusalem that still was at this time.

The setting of this tug of war is between the perfection of the firstfruits and the precedence of types and figures that still had standing while Jerusalem still stood.
This coincides exactly with everything we know from the scriptures including what Jesus said in Mathew chapters 23 and 24 concerning the end of the age, the preaching of the gospel to all nations which Paul said had already then been done we he wrote his epistles, and the coming destruction of the temple that then still stood.



Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.  

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;  

What is being perfected is the conscience. The conscience could not be perfected under law.
But this is in reference to the transition of the ages where the "law" still had standing. They were coming out from under the law while the law still stood.
They were abiding in Christ and him crucified where the law had been abolished in an effectual sense.
The law as a whole still stood and would stand until AD 70.

We are not the inheritors we are the benefactors.

Blessings to you
Barry

 

[jfraysse]

Hi Lupac:

You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you. 

I have one bit of advice:  If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down.  You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry".  Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats! 

Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready".  Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is". 

Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."   Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).

I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like.  Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.

But that's just me...

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

[Livelystone]

Hello again Barry

The only difference that mattered for the receivers of the two covenants was the word "if". The first covenant had the word "if" but the second does not BECAUSE rather than on stone the laws will be written on hearts that when that happens the individual WILL with no "if' ands or buts about it fulfill the law and receive the blessings......... that is what made it a better covenant!!!

The first covenant as given to Moses in Law of God that although righteous was unfortunately weak through the flesh because it did not did not contain a righteous life within it whereas the law of sin that lived in the flesh of man that had been around since the fall in the garden did have life within albeit one unto death...... so a new and better covenant became necessary.

However as far as your separating the blessings given unto the Apostles being different than those given to us it is not me that you  disagree with but with God's Word and in particular both the words of Jesus as well as the prophecy given in the transfiguration.

First lets look at the words of Jesus for what he said about both those of that time as well as us

Jn 17: 6.I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7.Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8.For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9.I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11.And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12.While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 .And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 .I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 .I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17.Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19.And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21.That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22.And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23.I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[/b]

Peter saw the prophecy of Jesus prayer while on the mount when he witnessed the transfiguration that would be brought forth in those whom were given the seed that is Christ that caused him to speak of a different day to those whom would listen to his words as prayed for by Jesus saying.......

2nd Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

John who was the last living apostle also witnessed the transfiguration on the mount not only understood the prophecy knew that it applied to generation that had not yet walked on earth because he saw the same figure of Jesus in his account in Revelation but then finds out it is not Jesus !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re.12  .6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7.Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8.And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9.Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.[/b]

John did not recognize the transfiguration of his fellow servant that made him look so much like Jesus that John who had walked with Jesus could tell them apart and this my dear brother Barry is something that had certainly not yet happened on earth........ but it will and that is what John's experience and the Book of Revelations is all about bro

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Actually yes, Hebrews does.........

1 Therefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Messiah, let us press on to perfection -- not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,

But the perfection does include those that died......

Hebrews 11:40 KJV
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
I see no difference between this:

Luk 24:47   And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, {of which Paul claimed had been accomplished by the time of his Epistles} beginning at Jerusalem.  
Luk 24:48   And ye are witnesses of these things.  

and this:
20.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Perhaps I'm not following you Doug.

Concerning Peter:

1Pe 1:7   That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:  
1Pe 1:8   Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:  
1Pe 1:9   Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.  
1Pe 1:10   Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:  
1Pe 1:11   Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

This is evidently a generational aspect here. That being this terminal generation of the old covenant people. They are in full expectation of the end of all things in their time.

1Pe 1:12   Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.  
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;  

Which they are fully expecting in their time as the terminal generation of the old age.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:  

Now the above text matches with the point that Peter is making in 1 Pet. 1:7. They were being persecuted but it was about to get a lot worse. Now the question is, can we take this out of it's audience relevant application. Is the "you" of 4:12 different from the "you" of 1:7?
If they were told that the trails were going to get much worse should they have believed it?
If they were told that they were to be blessed with the revelation of Jesus Christ in this time should they have believed it?

Is there another revelation of Jesus Christ other than the second appearance at the end of the age, the end of all things?
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
The contextual setting of a terminal generation is throughout the NT and is unrelenting.

I apologize Doug, I'm not following your other points. I'm a bit slow sometimes. Perhaps if you don't mind you could recap for me.
I'm not following your points on the transfiguration.

My general point is to extrapolate the meaning of these matters as benefactors not inheritors. These things are written for our learning just as they then looked to previous things for their learning (Rom 15:4).
Audience relevance still comes into view however. It has always been an important part of understanding and applying the scriptures.

Blessings to you
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Yes Cardinal, they are perfected historically through the firstfruits.

Hbr 11:2   For by it the elders obtained a good report. 

Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth {covenantal earth}. 

Hbr 11:35   Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Hbr 11:39   And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 
Hbr 11:40   God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 

1Pe 1:12   Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 

Blessings, Barry

[Livelystone]

Barry

I really do not understand why you would think that "US" does not include us  :dontknow:

Your theory does help those who need to have an excuse for their lack of signs and wonders coming forth from them. That is not to say that all will see such acts nor will all signs and wonders glorify God but when there are not any something is wrong that is most likely the missing presence of the Holy Spirit as God's outstretched arm on earth working through those of His choosing.

What has happened to all the prophecy of the OT Barry? ........ how do you explain the same anointing oil that went from the head to the feet not including the all of the Body of Christ?

For that matter when Jesus said of the temple to be torn down that he would rebuild on the third day that Temple was not even torn down until AFTER the death of the last Apostle. Even after Jesus ascended unto heaven His Temple worked fine up until the death of the last Apostle when then "He who letteth let be taken out of the way" was removed by the death of the last Apsotle that allowed the mystery of iniquity that was already at work to take control of the pulpit ushering in the reign of the tail of the dragon that still controls the vast majority of the Church and has swept far to many stars from their place in the heavens......... now it is time for them to ushered into the special place reserved for them, :banana:

What happened to Malachi and the Lord suddenly returning to His Temple that would purify the Priests....... There was no temple of His to return to until after the ascension and we certainly do not see the purity of the priests that we to become.

No my friend....... As Jesus said He and the children are for signs and wonders and the Apostles prophesied of the apostasy to come that until the time that is now upon us when the truth would finally after being absent for 1900 years once again be taught that would allow the glory of God to return His Temple on the third day as stated so by Jesus.

All who believe in Jesus are my brothers and sisters with you included but you are preaching another gospel. If I was to see your message gaining some traction here I would be concerned but for now your message is God's problem and not mine.

I am sorry but I am a slow typer and only have so much time for what does not seem to bare fruit........

Still I hope & pray the best for you.

Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

[Lupac]

Hi Lupac:

You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you. 

I have one bit of advice:  If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down.  You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry".  Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats! 

Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready".  Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is". 

Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."   Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).

I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like.  Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.

But that's just me...

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Thanks for the advice. I'm not really concerned about it. Just wanted to know more...

[jfraysse]

Thanks for the advice. I'm not really concerned about it. Just wanted to know more...

Outstanding!  Obviously, there are many opinions! :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

[sparrow]

Hi Lupac:

You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you. 

I have one bit of advice:  If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down.  You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry".  Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats! 

Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready".  Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is". 

Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."   Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).

I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like.  Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.

But that's just me...

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Good advice. :HeartThrob: