I have a question that's been bothering me for a while. I'm new to this board, and was never taught anything in my church about the "end times", so all I know is what I've read and heard. Okay, here it is. I read L Ray Smith's "When the towers fall" paper. About how the World Trade Center attack signals the feared "end times" that a lot of Christendom is up in the air about. This is one of the points I disagree with Ray, but I want your opinion.
Do you believe we're living in the "end times"?
What do you believe about the "end times"?
When do you think the "end times" will be here?
What exactly will happen, anyway?
Thank you all again. I've been doing so much better since I've been coming here. The question about the end really bothers me. One reason is I think it's because I'm still very young. (Only 18) If I was older, (say, 50 or so.) I don't think it would bother me so badly. Thanks.
People have been claiming that we're in the end times practically ever since Jesus was crucified and resurrected. I personally remain very credulous towards the idea that now, nearly two thousand years after the resurrection and ascension, is the time when Jesus will finally return. Jesus is described as coming tachu (Revelation 22:7), a Greek adverb that is used to denote immediacy, something that will happen very soon. Other verses in which this word is used imply that there will be or ought to be no delay at all before the fulfillment of the statement:
"Make friends quickly (tachu) with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison." (Matthew 5:25)
"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly (tachu) bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet'" (Luke 15:22)
"And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. 'The Teacher is here,' she said, 'and is asking for you.' When Mary heard this, she got up quickly (tachu) and went to him." (John 11:28-29)
His coming is further described as eggus (Revelation 22:10), a Greek adjective translated as "at hand", or "near" - something which will imminently come to pass, when used in reference to time. Again, all instances of this word in other verses imply that what is described is close:
"Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is near (eggus) ; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."' " (Matthew 26:18)
Ask yourself: If I leave you, and then I call you a short time later to tell you that my return is at hand, but then I do not return until two thousand years later, would you see nothing amiss with this at all? Or would you tell me that I had lied in my description of my return? You would, I think, surely do the latter - which makes it seem rather strange, to me, that so many do the former when considering the possibility of Jesus having still to this day not returned. The Old Testament describes many things as taking or happening over a long period of time - periods of time that one would surely assume to be longer than the intervening time between now and something that is described as "imminent", "soon", or "at hand" - and yet those periods of time are far shorter in length than two thousand years.
As for what to make of this, I'm not sure. Some believe that Revelation was written only a short time before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that the prophecies within were all fulfilled following that event, and believe that the second coming of Jesus was spiritual in nature rather than Jesus literally physically returning to Earth. I don't really know what I believe in this area - but I do know that the wording in Revelation pretty much completely rules out for me the idea that Jesus' return was promised to happen some two thousand years after it was written. I know that there are many who fervently disagree, though.
At the end of the day, I believe that all we really can do is to love one another and to allow the love of God to inhabit our hearts. Whether or not Jesus is going to physically come back in the near future is really just not something that I spend much time worrying about. If he does, he does; if he doesn't, he doesn't.
Lupac,
Do you happen to have a link to that paper of LRS's about the Towers? I don't think I've ever seen it before.
Thanks,
Anne
Hi Anne. Not Lupac, but it's just a little ways down on L.Ray Smith's home page, http://www.bibletruths.com/. I've looked at it, and I guess have mixed feelings about it.
I'm familiar wit that L Ray Smith article...and think there could be some truth to it
if we look at the prophetic books talking most about "end times" ie Daniel and Revelation, there are a lot of signs to look out for to recognise these "end times"
the prophetic books also say that the signs would be like the birthpangs of a pregnant women...ie the signs would increase over time in intensity
one of these signs would be wars and rumours of wars...
if we look at the major wars being fought today ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan...some of them have been fought longer than WW1 and 2 and Vietnam for that matter...there are numerous wars and clashes happening all over the world...the new one just started in Yemen
one other sign would be all nations of the world would be governed by a world government...
Europe and the US is already tied together through NATO and also by European banks owning the Federal reserve...
in fact, the whole world is tied to the dollar as the de facto world currency in some way
the signs also include extreme weather changes on earth, which has been picking up in frequency over the last few years ie tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes...
also, the signs would also appear in the people of the world...it says that humanity's love will wane and grow cold...that violence and strife would increase, people would become selfish and lover's of self...
in Timothy we also find this about the last days:
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
I think we should all judge for ourselves and discern the signs, but I for one believes that we are pretty close to those last days
Hey Lupac,
Here is my take:
Do you believe we're living in the "end times"?
No. We are in the new age.
What do you believe about the "end times"?
End times is the study of "last things" or "eschatology". It's not the "end of time" but rather the "time of the end".
It is the old covenant heavens and earth that the bible foresaw. The end of the old covenant age. The fulfillment of types and figures.
If the end has not yet been realized then types and figures are still valid and the law is still valid and the Jews then are still under the law.
When do you think the "end times" will be here?
The end of the old covenant took place in AD 70 when old Jerusalem and the temple made with hands were destroyed.
God does not live in temples made with hands, he dwells in peoples hearts.
What exactly will happen, anyway?
The end of types and figures signified a marriage between God's possibility and human potential.
The old covenant was all about an independent human potential.
Christ was the last Adam.
The death that Adam was told about was to happen in the day that he eat. That day that time ended with Christ the last Adam.
Adam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.
To frame this very briefly:
God is love. The overwhelming and overriding constraint of love is to share. But this takes a lot of time to do well, and do properly. It takes history, and patience. And that is what is happening. God sets things up so he can share with his offspring. We tend to get impatient either because we miss the big picture or because we get programed into thinking that the journey is simply unfair.
JMO
Blessings Barry
Quote from: BarryAdam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.
Not exactly, although he is waning and, I trust, will soon become obsolete.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Quote from: Molly on November 20, 2009, 01:42:13 AM
Quote from: BarryAdam's time ended at the end of the old covenant. That was the limit of this (his) legacy.
Not exactly, although he is waning and, I trust, will soon become obsolete.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Hey Molly,
"In Christ" is a term that describes the application of the applied meaning of the then coming new age within the transitional body of Christ. They were as ones "in Christ" living by the applied meaning of the "good things about to be".
Just as those during the time in the wilderness looked upon the bronze serpent and lived. (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9, Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 "in the day of trial in the wilderness",1 Cor. 10:1-13)
Just as Noah and his family entered
into the ark. 1 Peter 3:17-22.
Phl 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of
you,
Phl 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for
you all making request with joy,
Phl 1:5 For
your fellowship in the gospel
from the first day until now; Phl 1:6 Being confident
of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it]
until the day of Jesus Christ: Phl 1:9 And this I pray, that
your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;
Phl 1:10 That
ye may approve things that are excellent; that
ye may be sincere and without offence
till the day of Christ;Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which
is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And
be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,
which is of the law, but that which is through
the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings,
being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13 Brethren,
I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do],
forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect,
be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let
us mind the same thing.
So they were living by the applied meaning, ("have this mind") of the then coming new age, in full expectation of the consumation of the old within their possible lifetime. The consumation of types and figures.
Blessing to you
Barry
Hi Barry
Nice post and there are not any "and buts" however for the seed that is Christ to bring forth "the same man" that ascended unto heaven who is the "word made flesh" to ever walk on earth again that seed that has to first mature into a full fruit baring "tree of life"
That is perfection in the form of the "perfect man" that will never come to past unless the man who is not yet perfected by God has the knowledge spoken of in the first three verses of Hebrews 6....... how much of that knowledge can be truly had without possessing the same knowledge as Paul and the others is only for our Father to heaven to determine.
Still the fact remains until the rains that come down from heaven in the form of blessings and heavenly knowledge that seed will never mature into the fullness of the mind of Christ in man until given unto us from Heaven.
I do agree with your use of "continuance" simply because there is a world of difference before Christ in us becomes us in Christ.
Blessings
Doug
Hey Doug,
Thanks very much for the exchange of ideas and views.
I do not believe that Jesus is going to walk again on this earth in a physical manifestation. I do not believe that the second appearance in scripture has anything to do with another earthly ministry.
Though he is with us all now. "Coming" means presence or arrival.
My view is to fully and completely accept the generational time restraints that are given throughout the new testament. They are both harmonious and relentless.
I do not beleive that we are being perfected.
We are the benefactors of the perfection of the saints (believers of the first century, the bride).
They are the bride we are not. We are the children of that marriage. We thus cannot have their perfection or their inheritance.
We cannot overcome the world. They already overcame it.
We are in the process of learning these truths. It is my view that when we persist in putting ourselves back into their setting an position we tend to neglect our moving forward from our position.
We are not overcoming the old covenant world. Everything has already been made new. End times are behind us. IMO its time we started moving forward.
A revelation of God's love without condition has been fully realized. The substance is here. Types and figures have passed away.
Adam was a type. Christ is the last Adam.
What defines the meaning of "Adam" or "the flesh" is the absence of this revelation on a historical basis. It is what Adam did not have. So then Adam was a man of mere "flesh" in the absence of a revelation of God's love without condition. In this then he eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and died.
The tree of life is the revelation of God's love without condition. This has been given and is fully realized in human history. Christ was the last Adam.
We now mature and grow as the children of the "marriage".
We grow in and mature as the benefactors not the inheritors. As benefactors our potential is unlimited. And we are just beginning to see this.
Because unity is not made it is realized (between the ears). We are one and God is one.
Many blessings to you
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 23, 2009, 02:49:19 PM
Hey Doug,
Thanks very much for the exchange of ideas and views.
I do not believe that Jesus is going to walk again on this earth in a physical manifestation. I do not believe that the second appearance in scripture has anything to do with another earthly ministry.
Though he is with us all now. "Coming" means presence or arrival.
My view is to fully and completely accept the generational time restraints that are given throughout the new testament. They are both harmonious and relentless.
I do not beleive that we are being perfected.
We are the benefactors of the perfection of the saints (believers of the first century, the bride).
They are the bride we are not. We are the children of that marriage. We thus cannot have their perfection or their inheritance.
We cannot overcome the world. They already overcame it.
We are in the process of learning these truths. It is my view that when we persist in putting ourselves back into their setting an position we tend to neglect our moving forward from our position.
We are not overcoming the old covenant world. Everything has already been made new. End times are behind us. IMO its time we started moving forward.
A revelation of God's love without condition has been fully realized. The substance is here. Types and figures have passed away.
Adam was a type. Christ is the last Adam.
What defines the meaning of "Adam" or "the flesh" is the absence of this revelation on a historical basis. It is what Adam did not have. So then Adam was a man of mere "flesh" in the absence of a revelation of God's love without condition. In this then he eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and died.
The tree of life is the revelation of God's love without condition. This has been given and is fully realized in human history. Christ was the last Adam.
We now mature and grow as the children of the "marriage".
We grow in and mature as the benefactors not the inheritors. As benefactors our potential is unlimited. And we are just beginning to see this.
Because unity is not made it is realized (between the ears). We are one and God is one.
Many blessings to you
Barry
Barry, This was
excellent! I have to tell you, this is an area that's always been unsettled for me, but my thoughts on this all pretty much line up with what you have just said here. :idea2: Hmmm. Very interesting. I think that's the first time anyone has ever said anything that actually made me sit up and take notice on a conversation about "end times". Good stuff. Thanks for posting this. :hihat:
Hi Barry
What happened the the manifestation of sons :sigh:....... something that had not yet happened to Paul who with all the blessings on him still spoke of himself as one "born out of due time" that translated means a premature birth
Paul spoke of himself as a premature example that of a ministry and a people whose time has had not yet come. We have all been given the power to become the sons of God and not just those who were the first to hear the Word....... Jesus made that very clear!
Also Jesus said His Body, (the temple made without hands) would be perfected on the third day and not on the first day.
As he condemned those who said the resurrection was already destroying the faith of some I sincerely hope our differences is in me not understanding what you are saying rather then understanding it very well but so strongly disagreeing with you :mshock:
Blessings
Doug
Doug.
I find it a blessing that you speak both gently and yet frankly. Thanks again for the exchange of views.
"As he condemned those who said the resurrection was already.."
Yes because it was then not yet.
The reason why these Judaizers were teaching this is because they taught that the old covenant was not going to end.
They taught law keeping including food and drink matters and circumcision to keep the law and that the temple was not going to be destroyed. I believe that delving into the context will indeed indicate the above points.
By teaching that the resurrection was already, they were teaching that the law was not going to end. "See the temple still stands!!"
Interestingly enough Paul did not defend against this false teaching by saying, "Look out the window, do you see a new world out there??!"
If Paul was teaching what people today teach about end times then Paul certainly missed out on using his best argument. "Do you have your eternal spiritual body yet??!" "Did the graves all empty out??!".
This text is actually a very good indication that their expectations were nothing like ours today. It is not a good indication that peoples expectations are the same as Paul's. This text is actually another indication that they were then waiting for it and the Judaizers just got it wrong because of their other agenda to teach the confidence in the law.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[What would be revealed and what would be made manifest is two ways of saying the same thing. The old covenant creature and the old covenant creation as a whole awaited this revelation.]
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
[Both Adam and Israel as hubs of the old covenant order.]
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[At the end of the old covenant creation all are delivered or saved from the law. See 2 Corinthians for the changeover of covenants, from "glory" (ministry of death and condemnations which was corruptible and passing away) to "glory" (of the new order, new covenant world)]
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation [old covenant] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
That's the firstfruits of the same harvest! The "they" and the "firstfuits" are of the same harvest. The firstfruits is the very best taken from the harvest and offered as a sacrifice which then followed immediately with the general harvest.
In Revelation this is the first and second resurrection. The firstfruits lived by the applied meaning of the good things about to be.
The end of that age was manifest by the end of old Jerusalem and the end of the temple that then stood. This we have enormous harmony and consistency on.
I'm sure that this does not answer all of your concerns or your points. It's just a way to quickly put forward a few points from my perspective. If we don't see eye to eye that's ok. But it's great to discuss these things too.
Many blessings to you
Barry
Thanks for the words of encouragement Sparrow.
Personally speaking, I'm very excited. :bgdance:
While we might have some rough times ahead, still great things are happening.
If I'm correct the Internet (as we know it) is only about 16 years old!!!! Unbelievable how fast things are moving.
So here we are talking about our heavenly Father and hope and love and and the future. :)
Did I say that I'm excited?
Barry
Hello Barry
Yes I can be both frank and respectful at the same time and IMO when anyone fails to do so no matter the subject at hand the possibility of that individual representing any part of the hopeful future for mankind ceases to exist. Simply put it is a basic requirement for any meaningful discussion to take place.......... Fair enough?
I have spent some time reading your posts starting at #5 before making this reply. I had noticed your posts before this thread and took note of what I liked as well as what I did not like about your concept of God and His plan for man. I see a lot of love in your words and that is good because without love we miss the marks of compassion and charity that are essential ingredients of the Christ life. Unfortunately even though love covers a multitude of sins it does not make up for that lack of knowledge that we are consistently warned of being the one reason of why God's people perish and miss out on the inheritance reserved for them. Simply put without the vision and knowledge of the truth God's people will not be able to endure and finish the race that will allow Christ to be formed in them. It is God alone that will bring man to perfection but there are requirements that need to be fulfilled before one goes from one glory unto the next and that final glory made available to us is unobtainable without knowledge of the truth.
IMO the most common reason for failure to obtain the knowledge needed is not adhering to the simple command of our Lord that we should live by every word that comes from God and not to overlook any word and especially one that contradicts any given message on any subject that is a sin in God's eye (Lev. 5:1).
All of the Bible has one purpose and that is to serve the intent of God for man to become more than what he already is through being created in His image but also for man to come forth in the exact likeness of God. Any doctrine that does not fall within that perimeter or supports a doctrine contrary to those perimeters may be dismissed as heresy. In all of history there have been only two created men of which only one is in both the image and likeness of God. However it is God's stated purpose not to bring forth just one but many sons prophesied by the omer of barley unto the same fullness and glory that Jesus Christ still holds today. Until that happens the greater works not yet done will never come to be.
The Scriptures have been written for all up but especially for those who are here for the ushering in of the third day. Paul made it very clear that he had not yet apprehended who had apprehended him yet still lived his life as if he had (Phi. 3:11-13). It is not just Paul who waits for Christ to be formed in us (Gal. 4:19) but also Jesus Himself (He.10: 12-14) who has yet to give out the grand prize of the morning star to any man (Re.2: 28) despite that being His and the promise of God way back in Ge.1: 26.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and to Him alone do those who belong to Him turn their ears to hear. Consequently I am not overly concerned of your doctrine or that of any other one else swaying those who are chosen but instead I simply pray that the chosen have the strength to prevail until the end.
As Paul said when he spoke of all great people of faith who had not yet received the promise yet witnessed miracles, went and gave their lives so that we would have them to hold in remembrance when this cold hostile world tries so hard to overcome us.
For sake of bandwidth I will just suggest the reading of all of Hebrews 11
Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus
Doug
Hey Doug,
Thanks for the reply bro.
No biblical author speaks of any subsequent generation or generations coming into "perfection".
The perfection was that of the "firstfruits" sacrifice. This brought into perfection those who had lived and died under the old covenant (Heb. 11)
It was that very generation that was being perfected and this is something that they knew.
Phl 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
Phl 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
Phl 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
{Clearly the very people and church of this very time, no any subsquent generation}
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Paul's expectation is clearly generational not multi generational.
Phl 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;
Phl 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Quote:
Unfortunately even though love covers a multitude of sins it does not make up for that lack of knowledge that we are consistently warned of being the one reason of why God's people perish and miss out on the inheritance reserved for them. Simply put without the vision and knowledge of the truth God's people will not be able to endure and finish the race that will allow Christ to be formed in them.
End quote.
This perfection in question is that of the firstfruits. Taken from Galatians chapter 4 it is over-against the influence of the Judaizers who taught another gospel of returning back to the elements of the old covenant world.
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Contextually then, the formation of Christ in them was clearly linked with the casting out of the bond woman that still was in the Jerusalem that still was at this time.
The setting of this tug of war is between the perfection of the firstfruits and the precedence of types and figures that still had standing while Jerusalem still stood.
This coincides exactly with everything we know from the scriptures including what Jesus said in Mathew chapters 23 and 24 concerning the end of the age, the preaching of the gospel to all nations which Paul said had already then been done we he wrote his epistles, and the coming destruction of the temple that then still stood.
Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
What is being perfected is the conscience. The conscience could not be perfected under law.
But this is in reference to the transition of the ages where the "law" still had standing. They were coming out from under the law while the law still stood.
They were abiding in Christ and him crucified where the law had been abolished in an effectual sense.
The law as a whole still stood and would stand until AD 70.
We are not the inheritors we are the benefactors.
Blessings to you
Barry
Hi Lupac:
You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you.
I have one bit of advice: If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down. You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry". Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats!
Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready". Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is".
Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).
I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like. Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.
But that's just me...
In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
Hello again Barry
The only difference that mattered for the receivers of the two covenants was the word "if". The first covenant had the word "if" but the second does not BECAUSE rather than on stone the laws will be written on hearts that when that happens the individual WILL with no "if' ands or buts about it fulfill the law and receive the blessings......... that is what made it a better covenant!!!
The first covenant as given to Moses in Law of God that although righteous was unfortunately weak through the flesh because it did not did not contain a righteous life within it whereas the law of sin that lived in the flesh of man that had been around since the fall in the garden did have life within albeit one unto death...... so a new and better covenant became necessary.
However as far as your separating the blessings given unto the Apostles being different than those given to us it is not me that you disagree with but with God's Word and in particular both the words of Jesus as well as the prophecy given in the transfiguration.
First lets look at the words of Jesus for what he said about both those of that time as well as us
Jn 17: 6.I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9.I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11.And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12.While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 .And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 .I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 .I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17.Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19.And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21.That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22.And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23.I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[/b]
Peter saw the prophecy of Jesus prayer while on the mount when he witnessed the transfiguration that would be brought forth in those whom were given the seed that is Christ that caused him to speak of a different day to those whom would listen to his words as prayed for by Jesus saying.......
2nd Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
John who was the last living apostle also witnessed the transfiguration on the mount not only understood the prophecy knew that it applied to generation that had not yet walked on earth because he saw the same figure of Jesus in his account in Revelation but then finds out it is not Jesus !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re.12 .6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7.Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8.And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9.Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.[/b]
John did not recognize the transfiguration of his fellow servant that made him look so much like Jesus that John who had walked with Jesus could tell them apart and this my dear brother Barry is something that had certainly not yet happened on earth........ but it will and that is what John's experience and the Book of Revelations is all about bro
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Actually yes, Hebrews does.........
1 Therefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Messiah, let us press on to perfection -- not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,
But the perfection does include those that died......
Hebrews 11:40 KJV
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect
Hey Doug,
I see no difference between this:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, {of which Paul claimed had been accomplished by the time of his Epistles} beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
and this:
20.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Perhaps I'm not following you Doug.
Concerning Peter:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
This is evidently a generational aspect here. That being this terminal generation of the old covenant people. They are in full expectation of the end of all things in their time.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Which they are fully expecting in their time as the terminal generation of the old age.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Now the above text matches with the point that Peter is making in 1 Pet. 1:7. They were being persecuted but it was about to get a lot worse. Now the question is, can we take this out of it's audience relevant application. Is the "you" of 4:12 different from the "you" of 1:7?
If they were told that the trails were going to get much worse should they have believed it?
If they were told that they were to be blessed with the revelation of Jesus Christ in this time should they have believed it?
Is there another revelation of Jesus Christ other than the second appearance at the end of the age, the end of all things?
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
The contextual setting of a terminal generation is throughout the NT and is unrelenting.
I apologize Doug, I'm not following your other points. I'm a bit slow sometimes. Perhaps if you don't mind you could recap for me.
I'm not following your points on the transfiguration.
My general point is to extrapolate the meaning of these matters as benefactors not inheritors. These things are written for our learning just as they then looked to previous things for their learning (Rom 15:4).
Audience relevance still comes into view however. It has always been an important part of understanding and applying the scriptures.
Blessings to you
Barry
Yes Cardinal, they are perfected historically through the firstfruits.
Hbr 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth {covenantal earth}.
Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Blessings, Barry
Barry
I really do not understand why you would think that "US" does not include us :dontknow:
Your theory does help those who need to have an excuse for their lack of signs and wonders coming forth from them. That is not to say that all will see such acts nor will all signs and wonders glorify God but when there are not any something is wrong that is most likely the missing presence of the Holy Spirit as God's outstretched arm on earth working through those of His choosing.
What has happened to all the prophecy of the OT Barry? ........ how do you explain the same anointing oil that went from the head to the feet not including the all of the Body of Christ?
For that matter when Jesus said of the temple to be torn down that he would rebuild on the third day that Temple was not even torn down until AFTER the death of the last Apostle. Even after Jesus ascended unto heaven His Temple worked fine up until the death of the last Apostle when then "He who letteth let be taken out of the way" was removed by the death of the last Apsotle that allowed the mystery of iniquity that was already at work to take control of the pulpit ushering in the reign of the tail of the dragon that still controls the vast majority of the Church and has swept far to many stars from their place in the heavens......... now it is time for them to ushered into the special place reserved for them, :banana:
What happened to Malachi and the Lord suddenly returning to His Temple that would purify the Priests....... There was no temple of His to return to until after the ascension and we certainly do not see the purity of the priests that we to become.
No my friend....... As Jesus said He and the children are for signs and wonders and the Apostles prophesied of the apostasy to come that until the time that is now upon us when the truth would finally after being absent for 1900 years once again be taught that would allow the glory of God to return His Temple on the third day as stated so by Jesus.
All who believe in Jesus are my brothers and sisters with you included but you are preaching another gospel. If I was to see your message gaining some traction here I would be concerned but for now your message is God's problem and not mine.
I am sorry but I am a slow typer and only have so much time for what does not seem to bare fruit........
Still I hope & pray the best for you.
Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus
Doug
Quote from: jfraysse on November 24, 2009, 10:42:40 PM
Hi Lupac:
You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you.
I have one bit of advice: If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down. You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry". Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats!
Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready". Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is".
Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).
I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like. Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.
But that's just me...
In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
Thanks for the advice. I'm not really concerned about it. Just wanted to know more...
Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:11:17 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'm not really concerned about it. Just wanted to know more...
Outstanding! Obviously, there are many opinions! :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jfraysse on November 24, 2009, 10:42:40 PM
Hi Lupac:
You have heard from several folks who are both interested and studied in this topic and I trust they have been a help to you.
I have one bit of advice: If you ever find yourself confused, frustrated or obsessed with the "end times", then stand down. You and I have much bigger "spiritual fish to fry". Your "end time" and mine is all that God cares about and THESE might be our NEXT heart beats!
Jesus taught us to be busy about our Father's business and to be "ever ready". Spending too much time worrying about, or trying to decipher, what "will be" is, or can be, a distraction from "what is".
Note Jesus' attitude in Acts 1:6-7 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Here Jesus rebuffed the request to "know the future" and replaced it with the practical Job at Hand (Acts1:8).
I believe we are all a "work-in-progress" toward becoming more Christ-Like. Where and when it all ends is not in my job description.
But that's just me...
In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
Good advice. :HeartThrob:
Goodness. All I can say is that I am thoroughly blessed by reading all that has been posted here since I last logged in and the things written that I'd never thought about before nor understood make me feel like a mere babe. Thank you all for the heavenly manna.
Anne
Hey Doug,
Firstly Doug,
This view does not negate the benefits of growth, maturity, knowing Christ, and kingdom living. It simply does not attempt to repeat what has already been accomplished and what is already fulfilled.
I do very much appreciate your heart and your thoughts and I do respect your views, though I do disagree with some of them.
I do not function from a predetermined stand that you or anyone else must believe what I believe.
But if you do, then IMO you may understand the last 1939 years of Christendom trying to function without living apostles. Apostles whom themselves were clearly "generational".
My dear brothers and sisters who are part of the most predominate denomination in the world among the many thousands of other denominations, did realize that they needed their "Popes" to continue the appearance of a continued transitional body of Christ (which is the essence of biblical futurism).
We really do not know what happened in the very early years after the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 which Luke said was the indication of "the fulfillment of all things written". Though some of the writings do have clear indications of a view of past fulfillment. However much of this information was destroyed. We know for certain that shortly afterward the "church" went into theocracy and then established its own army and so on and so forth.
Since that time we have come to the point where we just form in a committee, register with the government, build a place, hang a sign out on the front lawn, while the committee decides what is going to be our doctrine, our tenets of faith, what our version of the gospel is going to be, and what someone must do to be saved, and when to label someone else a heretic. And that last one is very important. It keeps control.
Then we think that this is perfectly normal and so is carrying on just like the days we read about some 1939 years past when they had living apostles and they had living evangelists appointed by living apostles to set things straight and keep order in all the churches. Such a "committee" apparently thinks it has the authority to replace the apostles in the apostle's absence. The problem of course is that such a committee only has jurisdiction to "label" another committee or group or person as heretics. So it really has no more authority than what those who attended that denomination give it.
So maybe I fell on my head as a child and it's still affecting me, but I have chosen to accept the abundant, clear and relentless time restraints given throughout the New Testament. The over 100 to 200 time restraints that apparently for the last 1900 years has so many either trying to explain away or just ignoring because of the enormous division concerning the subject matter.
The one that 20 years ago hit me right between the eyes was this one:
Hbr 10:35 Ye may not cast away, then, your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward,
Hbr 10:36 for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise,
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;
At least for me, there was just no getting around it. Nor could this be explained as a personal growth issue. Nor could there be another second appearance thereafter. This was clearly a "generational" setting just like that in the wilderness (Hebrews chapter 3 and 4).
The prophecy of Jesus that the gospel would be preached to all nations was given.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[See Mark 16:15, Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8]
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Paul and the others a few years later, clearly claim, both that this had then been done, and that the end was at hand.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Hbr 1:2 {Youngs} in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Hbr 9:8 {ASV} the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;
Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling {gathering unto Christ behind the veil} of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is] {who want to continue in the old}; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hbr 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Of course this is not even the tip of the preverbal iceberg. It is really quite relentless is scope.
Personally speaking, my own thoughts have been:
Am I to change the first century agenda and make it my own?
Am I to say that they got the "world" wrong?
Did Jesus get it wrong? Did Paul?
Or do I go back to the biblical principle of first order which is Audience Relevance and then extrapolate the eternal meaning.
When I do that I come up with "we are the benefactors not the inheritors". But that's just me.
That conclusion is very, very good news. And you are very right Doug. It is not the same exact good news as they taught because the Kingdom of God is not at hand. It's just plain old here right now in its fullness.
Does that mean that this is all we get? No! It means that everything has been made new from what it then was. Now IMO we can move forward because before we could not.
But placing ourselves in their time frame and in the specificity of their agenda is not IMO a good way of moving forward. It's like being stuck in the past.
Quote:For that matter when Jesus said of the temple to be torn down that he would rebuild on the third day that Temple was not even torn down until AFTER the death of the last Apostle.
End quote.
I certainly cannot agree with that Doug.
Jesus was talking about his body which was thrown down and resurrected the third day.
Mat 26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Also John had the indication that he would but Peter would not live to see the second appearance. (John 21:22)
Blessings to you
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 25, 2009, 05:51:11 PM
I do very much appreciate your heart and your thoughts and I do respect your views, though I do disagree with some of them.
I do not function from a predetermined stand that you or anyone else must believe what I believe.
But if you do, then IMO you may understand the last 1939 years of Christendom trying to function without living apostles. Apostles whom themselves were clearly "generational".
Jesus chose his 12 disciples, and trained them, and prepared them to become the foundation of his church, along with the Old Testament prophets. Obviously, Jesus knew what he was doing; James even said, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." [Acts 15:18]
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 25, 2009, 05:51:11 PM
My dear brothers and sisters who are part of the most predominate denomination in the world among the many thousands of other denominations, did realize that they needed their "Popes" to continue the appearance of a continued transitional body of Christ (which is the essence of biblical futurism).
We really do not know what happened in the very early years after the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 which Luke said was the indication of "the fulfillment of all things written".
One of the main things Jesus warned of in the Olivet Discourse was that false teachers would arise. Many would be deceived by them, he said. And Peter discussed this in 2 Peter 2. That indeed happened in the early centuries of the church, and continues today. One result was that the truth of gospel was obscured, as the teachings of the Apostles were merged with Greek philosophy, and superstition. IMO, this fulfilled the prophecy of Joel about the sun being turned to darkness, as the sun represents the gospel, and clothes the woman in heaven, Rev. 12:1, who represents the church.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 25, 2009, 05:51:11 PM
Though some of the writings do have clear indications of a view of past fulfillment. However much of this information was destroyed. We know for certain that shortly afterward the "church" went into theocracy and then established its own army and so on and so forth.
Since that time we have come to the point where we just form in a committee, register with the government, build a place, hang a sign out on the front lawn, while the committee decides what is going to be our doctrine, our tenets of faith, what our version of the gospel is going to be, and what someone must do to be saved, and when to label someone else a heretic. And that last one is very important. It keeps control.
Then we think that this is perfectly normal and so is carrying on just like the days we read about some 1939 years past when they had living apostles and they had living evangelists appointed by living apostles to set things straight and keep order in all the churches. Such a "committee" apparently thinks it has the authority to replace the apostles in the apostle's absence. The problem of course is that such a committee only has jurisdiction to "label" another committee or group or person as heretics. So it really has no more authority than what those who attended that denomination give it.
So maybe I fell on my head as a child and it's still affecting me, but I have chosen to accept the abundant, clear and relentless time restraints given throughout the New Testament. The over 100 to 200 time restraints that apparently for the last 1900 years has so many either trying to explain away or just ignoring because of the enormous division concerning the subject matter.
The one that 20 years ago hit me right between the eyes was this one:
Hbr 10:35 Ye may not cast away, then, your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward,
Hbr 10:36 for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise,
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;
At least for me, there was just no getting around it. Nor could this be explained as a personal growth issue. Nor could there be another second appearance thereafter. This was clearly a "generational" setting just like that in the wilderness (Hebrews chapter 3 and 4).
The church is pictured as a woman who flees to the wilderness in Rev. 12:6, and again in Rev. 12:14. In Rev. 12:6 she is in the wilderness for 1,260 days, and in Rev. 12:14 it is for "a time, times, and a half," which is a prophetic period, one half of "seven times," or half of a prophetic "week."
The final "week" of the 70 weeks spans both the ministry of Jesus, which many think was a half-week of three and a half years, plus the entire history of the church since then, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 25, 2009, 05:51:11 PM
The prophecy of Jesus that the gospel would be preached to all nations was given.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[See Mark 16:15, Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8]
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 25, 2009, 05:51:11 PM
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Paul and the others a few years later, clearly claim, both that this had then been done, and that the end was at hand.
The Apostles probably did expect the end to occur in their lifetime, which spurred them to great accomplishments. However their understanding of prophecy changed. They saw the church becoming prey to false teachers as Peter warned in 2 Pet. 2.
Doug (another Doug)
Quote from: Doug on November 27, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:
Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: Doug on November 27, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:
Psalm 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psalm 112:2
His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his handWe are all heirs and our inheritance is the same as He who has brought us forth....... if we are resurrected with Him. Anything less is contrary to the law of the seed that Jesus has fulfilled and God's Law does not change !
BUT YOU MUST BELIEVE !!!
Blessings
Doug
Quote
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 27, 2009, 04:40:42 PM
Quote
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8
with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.
Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.
??
That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.
But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
{This is the generation of John the Baptist and Jesus}
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
{This compares the generation of that of Nineveh and that of Christ}
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
{This compares the generation of that of Solomon and that of Christ}
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
{This is about all previous generations from Zacharias son of Barachias which is the entire recorded history of eschatology in regards to shed blood upon the covenantal earth}
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Is Matthew chapter 24 different from all the other meanings of "this generation"?
Like I said, I may be misunderstanding the point. I certainly don't want to be argumentative. Just trying to understand from my own perspective.
Many blessings
Barry
Hey Doug,
If the apostles changed their mind about when these things were going to happen then why is this not evidenced in the writting of Jude.
I what mean is that what Peter said would happen was clearly happening when Jude wrote and warned them at that time that what Jesus and the other said would happen was then happening.
Now we know that Peter and Jude are talking about the very same things. At least that seems very evident.
The question I would ask then is why look to happenings in the church today as the fulfillment of things that were clearly happening back then when they said they would be happening.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand.
I'm certainly willing to drop the subject if it's an inconvenience to anyone.
Here's the text from Jude writting about the same thing that Peter did in 2 Peter 2.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Is Jude not indicated to them in this time what is then happening? Is this not the "last time"?
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Zeek on November 27, 2009, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 27, 2009, 04:40:42 PM
Quote
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8
with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.
Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.
??
Not at all........ He who opens the door shuts the door and no man openeth it again
Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;Those who are "dead in Christ" will rise at His coming into His temple(s)........ those who are not dead in Christ will not be caught up together with them that are. Re-read 1Thess 4:13-18 without that the teachings of the traditions of man interfering.
1Thes 4. 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Luke 6:1 is another prophecy of those who will be caught up with Him and the work they do purifying the wheat company (as in threshing the harvest).
Luke 6 1And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on November 27, 2009, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: Doug on November 27, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:
Psalm 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psalm 112:2
His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand
We are all heirs and our inheritance is the same as He who has brought us forth....... if we are resurrected with Him. Anything less is contrary to the law of the seed that Jesus has fulfilled and God's Law does not change !
BUT YOU MUST BELIEVE !!!
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Amen, Doug........ :thumbsup: the 42nd generation NOT recorded in there by name because it is a many-membered body. Blessings....
Good Morning Barry
I am glad you brought Jude up....... your ears must have been burning because I was just thinking about what Jude had to say on this subject.......... I do belive the Lord would have you to come to understand this brother :HeartThrob:
Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints
Paul often made references to a second blessing just as he spoke of him and the others seeing Jesus twice......... considering many of them saw Jesus every day for over three years does that not seem strange?
Plus remember what the phrase "born out of due time" means !!! (born early as in a premature birth)
Hebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.
I need some chores done but I will check back from time to time
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.......Blessings.....
Quote from: DougHebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.
This bears repeating--after the shadow of the Old Testament priesthood. Thanks!
Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
:cloud9: Amen, and thank You Lord for Your life hidden in your WRITTEN WORD. And in the 3rd day He will be perfected = He has a body to lay His head upon. Blessings......
Now this is some meaty discussion within the scriptures. Everybody pull up a chair and dig in at the banquet. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 06:28:16 PM
Quote from: DougHebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.
This bears repeating--after the shadow of the Old Testament priesthood. Thanks!
Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Hey Molly,
Thanks for the input.
Here is my take:
Actually the "thorn in the flesh" are the Judaizers. The brethren "in the flesh" of Paul who came behind everywhere he went and preached another gospel. His thorn in the flesh.
2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a
thorn in the flesh, the
messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Cr 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Cr 12:12 Truly the
signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
The subject matter is that of the Judaizers whom Paul referred to as false apostles. Paul is claiming to be a true apostles over-against these messengers of Satan.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are]
false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for
Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Notice how it all fits clearly together in context.
thorn in the flesh, the
messenger of Satan signs of an apostle were wrought among you false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for
Satan himself is transformed
Paul's thorn in the flesh is not a mystery we have to guess at. They are clearly the Judaizers or false apostles that are in this very context.
Paul's thorn in the flesh are his brethren "in the flesh" where were Jews that are preaching the law.
Concerning Hebrews:
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually
into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Hbr 9:7 but into the
second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place
hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure
for the time present; according to which
are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the
good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
Hbr 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh:
Hbr 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience
from dead works to serve the living God?
{These "dead works" were still being performed at this time. They were told that way they were waiting for, was not yet manifested until the temple was torn down. That's the setting. That is what they were waiting for and what they saw coming.}
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hbr 9:16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth.
Hbr 9:18 Wherefore even the first [covenant] hath not been dedicated without blood.
Hbr 9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Hbr 9:20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward.
Hbr 9:21 Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood.
Hbr 9:22 And
according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
Hbr 9:23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
So the subject matter has never be changed here. The second appearance would be something that the believers would see as salvation. This does not mean that the other would not see it at all. Nor is the time restraints for both groups changed. They are the same. The end of the then standing temple made with hands.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:
Hbr 9:25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;
Hbr 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but
now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment;
Hbr 9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
So for those effectually waiting, he appears a second for salvation. The second appearance of the high priest is what is in question. It is Christ that appeared a second time apart from sin. Because he had already taken sin to the grave. The second appearance of the high priest was seen as the acceptance of God of the given sacrifice.
Any way we see it however it is still a first century context connected with the throwing down of that temple in that time. What they saw coming. That is why they got out of Jerusalem before it happened.
To those who are not ready, "like a thief in the night".
Hbr 10:10 By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hbr 10:11 And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins:
Hbr 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hbr 10:13 henceforth
expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. When? When the temple made with hands is thrown down. For it is yet standing.
Hbr 10:23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
Hbr 10:24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;
Hbr 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more,
as ye see the day drawing nigh. Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully {by continuing the aforementioned dead works} after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
So their expectation is one that falls into a thief in the night. But for those waiting "salvation".
Hbr 2:2 For if the word
spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Hbr 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
The world we now live in is not subject to angles.
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But
now we see not yet all things put under him. They did not yet see all thing but they were about to. This was their expectation.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is]
ready to vanish away. It was their full expectation that the end of the age was something they then saw coming.
I believe that it is hard for many to see this today. But for the same reasons that people have a hard time with UR. Or why people think that salvation is about getting to heaven.
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In context, clearly the last days of the old covenant. That is the context through and through. The imminence is also through and through.
JMO
Blessings to you
Barry
PS, Got some work to get down. Plan on addressing the seed topic and the generation topic shortly if that's ok.
Hey Doug and everyone.
[To be taken in connection with my above points on Philippians and their expectation of being complete in the day of Christ within their possible life span]
The generational context of the harvest:
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
This is following the seed analogy. Prior to this, here what Paul had to say:
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
The implication is generational. And it's not imo an eternal generation as pertains to the harvest.
Some had already "fallen asleep". So strong is the generation time restraint that some in Thessalonica were worried that those that had fallen asleep already that being prior to "the end" would lose their place in the "gathering" [as within the firstfruit context].
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Paul had to assure them that those of that generation that fell asleep already, would not be left behind.
Now however you are calculating this aspect, we know that the harvest was at the end of the age that Jesus was in.
Mat 13:37 And he answering said to them, `He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man,
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Mat 13:40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,
Mat 13:41 the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 13:43 `Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.
This makes sense if we follow continuing message which is the end of the old covenant.
So the seed analogy is from within the framework of the "called out ones" or "saints" which were called out from the old covenant to be the firstfruits of the whole harvest.
This parallels with the "end of the age" as given in Matthew Chapter 24 as the destruction of the temple made with hands.
There is nothing in the analogy which speaks of us as part of the harvest. On the contrary everything here as well has imminence written all over it.
We are the benefactors. Time to start looking forward with what we are given IMO.
Now the problem with accepting that the apostles probably believed that the end was then near is that we should then simply conclude that they had it right. If they projected a false view in their writings to begin with then we are pretty much stuck with them projecting false views anywhere and anyhow. I know of no way around this.
If we feel that they in there writings were capable of giving a false impression on this matter then that is in and of itself quite a red flag imo.
Think about this for just a moment:
Quote Doug:
The Apostles probably did expect the end to occur in their lifetime, which spurred them to great accomplishments.
End quote.
Why would you or anyone else have that impression if it were not evidently there?
If it is evidently there then it was a false impression was it not?
If they were wrong about this to begin with, what makes us think that they ever got it right? Maybe just another false impression they were giving. Maybe they were wrong about everything anyway?
It seems to me that we are stuck with the logic that they never gave that impression ever as something that they actually thought or that our impression is wrong if we think to the contrary.
Them changing their minds seems out of the question to me.
JMO
Blessings Barry
Hmmm, that is to bad........ still it was nice to read and share with those whom God has revealed what was and what will be when he makes up His jewels.
BTW Barry ........ where do you find in the scriptures that you need to keep things "in context"?
God's laws are the only way approved of by God for determining spiritual wisdom that are necessary for finding the "hidden manna". If you like "context they are in context as in abbreviated form in Isa 28 9-13.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on November 27, 2009, 10:51:48 PM
Hmmm, that is to bad........ still it was nice to read and share with those whom God has revealed what was and what will be when he makes up His jewels.
BTW Barry ........ where do you find in the scriptures that you need to keep things "in context"?
God's laws are the only way approved of by God for determining spiritual wisdom that are necessary for finding the "hidden manna". If you like "context they are in context as in abbreviated form in Isa 28 9-13.
Blessings
Doug
Yes Doug it has been a real blessing to me and it is always a joy to reconsider my views and consider other people's views.
The truth is there Doug, and it is in the context. The book is consistent and harmonious. So IMO it helps me keep my self importance out of the equation.
Personally speaking would rather hear what Paul and Jesus had to say than what I want to make it say.
Is it not the problem with seeing UR?
Does the context not prove UR?
IMHO it very much does.
Personally speaking I do not need to see myself as the first century "elect" to be a believer and love people dearly and proclaim God's love in Christ Jesus.
Unity is not made it is realized. That's good news!
Value is not earned, it's a gift, and we all have it thanks to our Father.
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: Don't forget that what they walked out in the natural as natural Jews seeing the natural end of their age or portion, and transitioning to a new age, STILL means something spiritual both to them and to those of the succeeding generations that have come and gone since. Because one day is of the Spirit and not the law, and that age or DAY is without end. This is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.
God had 7 days and on the 7th He rested from all His works, which is why we rest IN HIM, IN the Spirit, and why He IS the resurrection = unending age. So with that understanding that there was an "overlap" of "ages" that began to be revealed then, one of which is not in time, but rather timelessness, let's look at Matt. 13 again.
Mat 13:37 And he answering said to them, `He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man,
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one,
:cloud9: Who is the "good seed" and where is He "planted"? It is the Christ Seed and the field He is planted in, is your "world" or body of earth. This is why the word ankle in Hebrew has a meaning of, "the end of the world".
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
:cloud9: The enemy that sowed the tares in this same "world" is the devil, and he sowed them while Adam was asleep. God put Adam to sleep, but you cannot find where He woke him up, until you perceive "arise and shake off the dust and Christ shall give thee light". The messages or messengers with messages are what "reap" the tares and loose them into the fire of God to be consumed.
Mat 13:40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,
:cloud9: This age of flesh and tares ruling over this "world" of our bodies, starts to come to an end, when the tongues of fire come upon our heads from the baptism in His Spirit. God said He would destroy the earth again with a covering of fire, just as He did in the natural with a covering of water, and to baptize is to be covered.
And just as the earth is still here and didn't go anywhere but rather the flesh and tares (nephilim spirits) were consumed, so too does our "earth" get consumed with fire but the only thing that is supposed to leave is that which is of the evil one.
Mat 13:41 the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, Mat 13:42 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
:cloud9: The kingdom of God is within you, and so are the tares, ie. those things which cause us to do lawlessness when we come into agreement with them. The Lord, in His wisdom, had us praying for 2000 years, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven". What happened in heaven? Satan was kicked out.
And so too, do his tares and his rulership of our "earth" get kicked out. And since we are under the letter of the Word until the Spirit of the Word shows us how to walk out the letter thus keeping it perfectly, then this "age" begins to end IN US, while a new "age" takes over =
Mat 13:43 `Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.
:cloud9: We are told to beware the leaven of the Pharisees and the Saducees, and the Saducees are the ones who believed the resurrection was past already, as did one of the thieves on the cross who said IF you are the Christ, but He said TODAY is the day of your salvation, ie. not another day, but the day of CHRIST, the daystar that arises in our hearts with healing in His wings. Blessings....
good word Cardinal
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 27, 2009, 05:18:28 PM
That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.
But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.
...
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before?
The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
Quote from: CardinalThis is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.
Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.
Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
G1074
γενεά
geneaghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085;
a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
G1085
γένος
genosghen'-os
From G1096;
"kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
Quote from: Zeek on November 27, 2009, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 27, 2009, 04:40:42 PM
Quote
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8
with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.
Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.
??
This seems to be backwards, IMO; perhaps your reasoning ought to go like this: "if all that needs to be fulfilled will not happen until heaven and earth cease to exist, then Jesus' generation will not pass away, as long as the earth remains." The saying of Jesus, about "this generation," is followed by a reference to the durability of heaven and earth.
Matthew 24:34-35
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Doug
Quote from: DougThe blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
Is that what he says?
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.
And, it did, didn't it? Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man. Their house left desolate.
Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].
Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: Doug on November 27, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.
hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:
Cool.
People who thought the end was near are often very zealous. Some even set dates, but there have been many times when such were disappointed.
This morning I listened to Haydn's Symphony No. 90. The final movement is famous for its false ending. Wikipedia says:
The finale contains one of Haydn's more famous jokes. Soon after the recapitulation starts, the music arrives at a rousing and unexpected "ending" in C major followed by four measures of silence which leads the audience to believe the symphony may have actually finished. Instead, the first theme quietly resumes in the remote key of D-flat major.The audience applauds, thinking it is the end, but it's not over yet. This happens twice! Haydn must have had a good chuckle. It reminded me of the people who think "the end" was in the first century. Of course, the joke is on them! Ha ha!
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 12:57:39 AM
Quote from: CardinalThis is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.
Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.
Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
:cloud9: Amen.....generation also has a meaning of revolution(s), as in the spiral of a whirlwind or the "ladder" of DNA or the ladder with angels on it. So as He gives us more, we take another step (the steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord), and are re-GENERATED back into being one with Christ from which we DESCENDED, as we were lowered into the bondage of corruption. Blessings....
I like this Card. Reminds of me of J.Preston Eby's Law of Circularity and our spirits returning to God from whence they came. Exciting things.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 28, 2009, 02:00:30 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 12:57:39 AM
Quote from: CardinalThis is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.
Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.
Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
:cloud9: Amen.....generation also has a meaning of revolution(s), as in the spiral of a whirlwind or the "ladder" of DNA or the ladder with angels on it. So as He gives us more, we take another step (the steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord), and are re-GENERATED back into being one with Christ from which we DESCENDED, as we were lowered into the bondage of corruption. Blessings....
can u show me how generation has a meaning of revolution??
thanks
Ok, I found this:
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
but that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??
ie: like the one used in Matt 24
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
thanks
Quotebut that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??
That's a Hebrew word you found. See the H? H is for Hebrew.
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
There's something mystical going on here--for sure.
:cloud9: I was just getting ready to add that, but you beat me to it. :thumbsup:
Root words are basically the consonants in a combination that gives the principle connecting thought of God that connects different words. If you remember that He spoke this all into being, it's the letters that are as His breath. It's been said by the Jewish sages that everything was created out of those letters, and I believe it.
In this case 1754 also means a circle, ball or pile, turn, round about, just as the one you mentioned 1752 means to gyrate (or move in a circle), ie. to remain or dwell. So you can see why then that the word for generation would mean a REVOLUTION of time.
God teaches us line upon line, but also PRECEPT upon precept or principle upon principle. The principle here is that a generation moves in a circular fashion as far as God's principles are concerned.
Another such example is: we can see for instance that the word for eye also means, color and a fountain, because they are all something round with color.
You can apply this "precept rule" to any word in there that is not a root word, and glean from it. This is why when I want to deep study I use a Strong's book and not the net version, because it's easier to see the connections. And you will notice after a time, that the words they have used in the meanings, are "mirrored" in the NT, and the principle thought is also repeated again and again all thru the book. Blessings...
gyroscope definition
gyro·scope (jī′rō skōp′, -rə-)
noun
a wheel mounted in a set of rings so that its axis of rotation is free to turn in any direction: when the wheel is spun rapidly, it will keep the original direction of its rotation axis no matter which way the ring is turned: gyroscopes are used in gyrocompasses and to keep moving ships, airplanes, etc. level
Etymology: gyro- + -scope
Quote from: Doug on November 28, 2009, 12:48:37 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 27, 2009, 05:18:28 PM
That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.
But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.
...
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before?
The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
That is a very good question Doug. But your answer is again IMHO out of context.
What you and I believe Cardinal is missing in this is that this is the age of eschatology.
The new age which we are in has no eschatology. It is the new age.
We cannot have their salvation from the law [that was still valid].
We can have our salvation which is between our ears. Confusing the two tends to negate the ongoing work of God in his creation as pertains to God's will being done on earth. Like saying, "Sorry Lord but you cannot put an end to the law historically because it's still in my head."
Salvation has nothing to do with getting to heaven. This fact alone has a lot to do with our misunderstanding IMO.
And I mean no offence with this just trying to explain my stance.
The point of eschatology is a filling up in several different directions.
One is the suffering of the saints and the other is the suffering of those judged by the law in the consummation of the law.
My point in Matthew 23 is similar to this:
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice
in my sufferings for you, and
fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the d
ispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from
ages and from generations, but
now is made manifest to his saints: This is the continued filling up of sufferings by the followers of Christ to complete the filling up and so then consummation of eschatology.
Same principle in Matthew 23, unless of course one wishes to try and ignore that there was a destruction of Jerusalem as promise in this chapter. I mean to say that the Cross of Christ did not take it away did it? It did happen as foretold did it not? So then the measure was filled and fulfilled.
They filled up the measure of what was being done from Adam. And so:
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof
in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
{by the law}
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous
generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given
to it,
but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise
in judgment with this generation,
and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Mat 12:42 The
queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation,
and shall condemn it: for
she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold,
a greater than Solomon [is] here.
So then the back history is brought back up upon that generation! This the very point again in Hebrews chapter 11. They received a good report by faith. They received not the promise. They are perfected not apart from you!
The whole of the history of eschatology is brought back to bear in the consummation of that age.
We do not have this nor can we have this.
Now in the very end the law is done away and all are saved. What is destroyed with unquenchable fire is the person of self sufficiency that stood in the precedence of valid types and figures. The person of God's creation however came through the fire. The person of God's definition.
This means a lot to us, but it does not mean a repeat in history. For the law and the prophets are fulfilled historically.
We are not the bride we are the children of the bride.
Blessings Barry
The temple was type. It was a figure. It was also the outward reflection of their ego.
But there was a time of it being a figure and a valid one. That time is past.
We don't look for another throwing down of that temple. But we do relate to the lessons learned. But not at the expense of fulfillment. Not at the cost of living in the past.
No we learn and move forward seeing behind the fulfillment of all things written.
Thank God judgment is behind us.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon [him], and caught him, and brought [him] to the council,
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all [men] every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, {not the physical body the old covenant temple} we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, {not of this old covenant creation}
Blessings Barry
PS I don't buy into everything that is written here but you might find the link interesting in this regards.
http://www.templesecrets.info/firstsec.html
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 02:40:56 AM
Quotebut that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??
That's a Hebrew word you found. See the H? H is for Hebrew.
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
There's something mystical going on here--for sure.
cool, so how does this relate to the greek word
G1074 which is used in Matthew 24. Same thing? just one Hebrew and one greek??
Barry,
thank u so much for your method of presentation and the scriptures you present. The bible makes so much sense to me when you look at it in first century fulfillment. Verses that I used to have a hard time figuring out, now make sense.
And I really appreciate your message of ongoing "revealing", ie: unity revealed; and I definitely can now through this view, see how so many can NOW apply the message inwardly but differently than another believer. To me the first century fulfillment view also explains to me why so many believers can have so many different views on how this NOW occurs. I used to get so frustrated when one would say "God told me this", and another would say "God told me this, and it was totally different. To me, even different religions/beliefs (ie some of the new age stuff, and old stuff like yoga, hinduism etc) all are so similar.....a revealing of LOVE (a death of the old mindset, and a resurrection of peace, joy and LOVE)
thanks again.
It seems the unity being revealed "between the ears" is very personal.
Quote from: Zeek on November 28, 2009, 04:29:28 AM
Barry,
thank u so much for your method of presentation and the scriptures you present. The bible makes so much sense to me when you look at it in first century fulfillment. Verses that I used to have a hard time figuring out, now make sense.
And I really appreciate your message of ongoing "revealing", ie: unity revealed; and I definitely can now through this view, see how so many can NOW apply the message inwardly but differently than another believer. To me the first century fulfillment view also explains to me why so many believers can have so many different views on how this NOW occurs. I used to get so frustrated when one would say "God told me this", and another would say "God told me this, and it was totally different. To me, even different religions/beliefs (ie some of the new age stuff, and old stuff like yoga, hinduism etc) all are so similar.....a revealing of LOVE (a death of the old mindset, and a resurrection of peace, joy and LOVE)
thanks again.
It seems the unity being revealed "between the ears" is very personal.
It can be, and intuitive learning can be very accurate. It's the presumptions and attachments to it that cause some misunderstandings.
It does have some limits however IMO.
Like the example of Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I might read that and it could trigger something very deep inside me that says, "Barry you are having some ego-driven issues that are a thorn in your fleshly mind" Or something of that nature.
However the "context" is not that at all. But the foundation of what was triggered may itself have some real promise. The words themselves may have triggered a very valid point. And having an ego is not the actual problem either. Neither is being in physical form.
The problem is how I might then think I know what it is saying contextually. Then try to adapt it to other scriptures reading that into them and so on and so on. All the while intuitively knowing that a truth was on some level had been touched.
My presumption filled in the blanks added more associations and connections and told me far far far more that what the intuition actually in and of itself had indicated.
All the while nonetheless I had learned something anyway about "me" and about growth and maturity.
Hope this made sense.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 01:08:38 AM
Quote from: DougThe blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
Is that what he says?
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.
And, it did, didn't it? Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man. Their house left desolate.
Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].
The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.
When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.
Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!
How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.
Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.
Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 03:37:29 AM
The temple was type. It was a figure. It was also the outward reflection of their ego.
But there was a time of it being a figure and a valid one. That time is past.
Is it? I don't think so. In Ephes. 2:20, Paul described the church of God as a holy temple. The Apostles and OT prophets, he said, are its foundation.
In 1 Cor. 10:11, Paul says the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness, under Moses, was intended for our examples, and for our learning, "upon whom the ends of the world are come." The prophecy of Rev. 12 pictures the church as a woman who flees to the wilderness, twice, in vs. 6, and in vs. 14.
The identification of the church with the temple of God is a theme based on several prophecies of the OT. One example is Isaiah 2:2, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."
The Lord's house was the temple on Mount Zion. The "mountain" is Zion. This mountain, Isaiah said, is to be exalted. And it is to become very high, higher than all the mountains of the earth.
In the NT, Zion is identified with "heavenly Jerusalem," and "the city of the living God," and "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven," Heb. 12:22-23.
Zion, the mountain of the Lord's house, is located in heaven in the NT. In the holy city described in Rev. 21, John saw no temple, but he said "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Jesus referred to himself as the temple of God, during his ministry on earth, and in John's description of the New Jerusalem, Jesus is called the temple of the holy city which comes down to earth, and thus the figure of a "temple" remains valid, because Jesus is the "temple" of the holy city, the bride.
And in the letters to the churches Jesus said:
Rev. 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
This is the hope of the saints, to be part of the holy city, the new Jerusalem, which is the "bride" of Christ. And to be a "pillar" is to be an essential part of it!
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 03:37:29 AM
We don't look for another throwing down of that temple. But we do relate to the lessons learned. But not at the expense of fulfillment. Not at the cost of living in the past.
No we learn and move forward seeing behind the fulfillment of all things written.
Thank God judgment is behind us.
Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 02:40:56 AM
Quotebut that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??
That's a Hebrew word you found. See the H? H is for Hebrew.
H1755
דּר דּור
dôr dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.
H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.
There's something mystical going on here--for sure.
Earth gyrates.
The English word year comes from a Hebrew words that (also) means repeating
cycleFor example when the ages of people are mentioned "we" translate it as year.
But strickly speaking it also could be a day-cycle, moon-cycle. Actually a year is a sun-cycle. Ofcourse there are many other cycle length in the universe.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 27, 2009, 05:34:00 PM
Hey Doug,
If the apostles changed their mind about when these things were going to happen then why is this not evidenced in the writting of Jude.
I what mean is that what Peter said would happen was clearly happening when Jude wrote and warned them at that time that what Jesus and the other said would happen was then happening.
Now we know that Peter and Jude are talking about the very same things. At least that seems very evident.
The question I would ask then is why look to happenings in the church today as the fulfillment of things that were clearly happening back then when they said they would be happening.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand.
I'm certainly willing to drop the subject if it's an inconvenience to anyone.
Here's the text from Jude writting about the same thing that Peter did in 2 Peter 2.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Is Jude not indicated to them in this time what is then happening? Is this not the "last time"?
Blessings Barry
Jude exhorts us to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." [vs. 2]
This is the faith which was delivered to us by Jesus and his Apostles, who taught that Christ had risen from the dead, and reigns over all from the throne of God in heaven. [Acts 2:36; Eph. 1:21] By faith in Christ, Gentiles can now share in the promises of God given to Abraham and to Israel. The scope of the gospel was explained in the teachings of Paul, who believed "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." [Acts 24:14]
This is what we should contend for. The prophecies foretold an apostasy, a great departing from the true gospel. [Dan. 8:24-25; 11:45] This began in the days of the Apostles. That is why Jude already in the first century says we need to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered." And John mentions that many antichrists were already active: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18]
The "last time" is characterized by antichrist having dominion over the saints, as shown in Daniel 7:25, which said of the little horn, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and so represents a human point of view, as opposed to a divine one. It is a human point of view that the saints need to overcome, to discover the true "faith which was once delivered unto the saints" which has been corrupted because of the false teachings of men.
Daniel said the time allotted to antichrist is "a time and times and the dividing of time" and this is the very same period of time that is mentioned in Rev. 12:14 which describes the church under the figure of a woman, who flees to the wilderness, for the second time in the chapter.
In the second escape to the wilderness the woman is given two wings of an eagle, which are symbolic of the gift of prophecy. An eagle soars at a great height, with powerful wings, and views the earth from above, and so pictures a divine point of view, which contrasts with the "eyes like the eyes of a man," of the little horn, which represents the antichrist. Thus the "wings of eagles" are symbolic of prophecy.
The wilderness represents a place where the church is nourished by God, and the time for which she remains there is the period of "a time, times and a half," or half of a prophetic week, and it is the last half week of the 70th week in Daniel 9:24-27. This period is referred to as "the last time" by John in the scripture quoted above. It extends for the entire period of the church, from the crucifixion, to the end of the age, and includes the present time. There is no prophetic age after the "last time."
John referred to the antichrist as a spirit:
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.Being a spirit, the antichrist did not go away at the end of the first century, but remains to this day, in the temple of God, which is the church. [2 Thes. 2:4] According to Rev. 12:9, the dragon deceives the whole world. The work of the spirit of God reveals the errors of antichrist, and leads believers to "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." [John 16:13]
Doug
Quote from: Doug on November 28, 2009, 07:11:59 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 01:08:38 AM
Quote from: DougThe blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
Is that what he says?
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.
And, it did, didn't it? Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man. Their house left desolate.
Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].
The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.
When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.
Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!
How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.
Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.
Doug
How could a Holy and Just God do this:
1Pe 4:17 [Darby] For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God [is come]; but if first from us, what [shall be] the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and [the] sinner appear?
Had to use Darby there because it is often misleading otherwise. The text is contextually saying:
"If the righteous is saved through sufferings {the difficulty is the sufferings in context and is not be be understood as scarcely saved} then you know that the sufferings of those who do not obey will be even greater.
I really don't think we are going to be able to ignore the "wrath to come" that was predicted. The destruction of Jerusalem had everything to do with judgment.
Now what exactly is fair?
Is this fair?
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
When we get caught up in what we think is fair for God to do we run the risk of losing sight of the plan.
What came upon the Jews of that time is the whole of the history of eschatology. If it had nothing to do with it then why did Jesus call it the sentence of the valley of himmon?
The judgment was against the conscience under law. They bore the same conscience of guilt as all there previous murderers who did slay the righteous. Their conscience was judged when they knew that what the "saints" had been saying was then happening and their wasn't a thing at the point that they could do about it. This in relationship to the fact that it is the consummation of the history of eschatology. Nor more after this would man's conscience be judged by types and figures before God.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou
condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
The judgment is on their conscience. The conscience of the old covenant man in the precedence of types and figures. This ends the judgment of God against the conscience of the self defined man of the old covenant that had precedence within types and figures.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed,
I make myself a transgressor. Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. If Paul had then made himself a transgressor he would have been judged in conscience at the consummation of the history of eschatology in AD 70.
2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the
testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in
your consciences.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a
good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
{shipwreck because they taught righteousness through the law}
Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and
conscience is defiled.
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect,
as pertaining to the conscience;
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said
unto them, O
generation of vipers, who hath warned
you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And
think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And
now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and
cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he
shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with]
fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will
thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. This was against the "conscience" under the law. It is also the consummation of the history of eschatology. Therefore in their conscience they bore the whole history back to Adam.
Including the murder of Cain. Whose blood was still speaking.
Including the queen of the south who when to see Solomon because of his wisdom, while they did not hear to Christ.
That's the point.
It's not some arbitrary "punishment" as one might imo incorrectly perceive it as.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 02:52:04 AM
Quote from: Doug on November 28, 2009, 12:48:37 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 27, 2009, 05:18:28 PM
That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.
But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.
...
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before?
The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
That is a very good question Doug. But your answer is again IMHO out of context.
No, my answer was not "out of context." Abel was killed by his brother Cain. According to the history in Genesis, the line of Cain ended in the flood. The Jews descend from Abraham, who descended from Noah, who was of the line of Seth, not Cain. So Jews were not even
distantly related to the person directly responsible for the death of Abel. Of course, Jesus knew that.
Why would God hold Jews of the first century, contemporaries of Jesus, responsible for the murder of Abel? Why take vengeance upon them, for the murder of Abel?
Jesus said "All these things shall come upon this generation." [Mat. 23:36] It could mean anyone, of any race, living at that time, not necessarily those Jews who Jesus was speaking to. The blood of Abel, and the guilt of Cain, was required of Jesus, because he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." [Rev. 13:8] Jesus represents that generation, and since he was raised from the grave, and remains alive, his generation has not pased away!
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 02:52:04 AM
What you and I believe Cardinal is missing in this is that this is the age of eschatology.
The new age which we are in has no eschatology. It is the new age.
We are in the "last time," John said, and the "last time" is the last half-week of the 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24-27, which is also called the "time, times and a half." It is the period in which the saints are dominated by the little horn, Dan. 7:25. In Dan. 12:7, this period is shown to extend to the end of all of the prophecies of Daniel, to the resurrection of the saints whose names are written in the book of life.
Dan. 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.The final "week" of the 70 weeks is the period in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints, or the church.
Doug
Hey Doug and everyone
It's impossible to cover every single verse and angle that might or possibly be brought up. So personally speaking I won't try. Also prefer not to touch on what is covered already like the issue of 2 Tim 2:18. :HeartThrob:
Quote:
Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]
Doug
End quote.
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle {old covenant tabernacle made with hands, not the physical body of each} were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
{New covenant body}
2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
{as Adam was as an old covenant body. IE no longer in Adam}
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan,
{the Jews are still in that tabernacle in a direct fashion of having been entrusted with the oracles of God. Some were in this tabernacle and some were not. The Jews were directly the Gentiles were not directly. But both are waiting for its dissolving. For the Gentiles cannot have the fullness until the Jews do. In this regard they are both in the same position. That being as one grafted into Israel's spiritual things, not natural things}
being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Cr 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {Both Jews and Gentiles}
2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body {of this old tabernacle made with hands}, we are absent from the Lord: {waiting for his second appearance}
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {incorrectly translated. "We walk not by appearance" see 5:12 "them which glory in appearance, and not in heart" IE those that have confidence in the law}
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the {old covenant} body, and to be present with the Lord. {as opposed to those who do not walk by faith and glory in appearance, 5:12}
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present {as Jews} or absent {as Gentiles}, we may be accepted of him. {At his coming}
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
{His body is the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. But it is the transitional body awaiting the second appearance.}
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, {the wrath about to be} we {the apostles} persuade men; but we {the apostles} are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
The issue then is, why make it about us as if we are the audience as they were?
No we make it about us as one's looking back saying thank you Lord. The revelation of God's unconditional love has been given in its fullness displacing forever types and figures of good things that we now have.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: Doug on November 28, 2009, 07:11:59 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 01:08:38 AM
Quote from: DougThe blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.
Doug
Is that what he says?
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.
And, it did, didn't it? Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man. Their house left desolate.
Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].
The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.
When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.
Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!
How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.
Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.
Doug
How could a Holy and Just God do this:
1Pe 4:17 [Darby] For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God [is come]; but if first from us, what [shall be] the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and [the] sinner appear?
Had to use Darby there because it is often misleading otherwise. The text is contextually saying:
"If the righteous is saved through sufferings {the difficulty is the sufferings in context and is not be be understood as scarcely saved} then you know that the sufferings of those who do not obey will be even greater.
Jesus suffered, and gave his life for us. And so, those who love him, offer themselves as a "living sacrifice."
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.Do you see the word "reasonable"? It is reasonable for us to submit ourselves to God, because he is a loving God.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
I really don't think we are going to be able to ignore the "wrath to come" that was predicted. The destruction of Jerusalem had everything to do with judgment.
Now what exactly is fair?
Is this fair?
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I don't see how it is "unfair." God has to open our minds, for us to believe in Him; if he had not opened their minds, they are considered unbelievers, so that he can have mercy on them, just as he had mercy on Paul, who said he "was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." [1 Tim. 1:13]
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
When we get caught up in what we think is fair for God to do we run the risk of losing sight of the plan.
What came upon the Jews of that time is the whole of the history of eschatology.
In the siege of Jerusalem, by the Romans, did Christ fight against the armies camped around about? [Zech. 14:3] did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and form a great valley? [Zech. 14:4] did the Jews flee to the valley? [Zech. 14:5] Did a river of "living water" flow from Jerusalem? [Zech. 14:8] was there darkness, and was the light neither "clear, nor dark"? [Zech. 14:6] was the land turned to a plain? [Zech. 14:10] Were the enemies struck with plague, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood upon their feet, and their eyes consumed away in their holes, and their tongue consumed away in their mouths? [Zech. 14:12] did they invaders fight against one another? [Zech. 14:13] were horses, mules, camels, and asses, all affected by the plague? [Zech. 14:15] did all people keep the feast of tabernacles afterward? [Zech. 14:16]
If we are honest, I think all would have to admit none of the above was fulfilled in the events of 70 AD in Jerusalem. Not even figuratively. But if you have an interpretation, or some explanation, feel free to offer it! Rebellious Jews who relied on Christ coming to fight on their behalf, as they thought Zechariah had said, were bitterly disappointed, and most died in the siege, or became slaves of the Romans.
Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 05:12:40 PM
Hey Doug and everyone
It's impossible to cover every single verse and angle that might or possibly be brought up. So personally speaking I won't try. Also prefer not to touch on what is covered already like the issue of 2 Tim 2:18. :HeartThrob:
Quote:
Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]
Doug
End quote.
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle {old covenant tabernacle made with hands, not the physical body of each} were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
{New covenant body}
2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
{as Adam was as an old covenant body. IE no longer in Adam}
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan,
{the Jews are still in that tabernacle in a direct fashion of having been entrusted with the oracles of God. Some were in this tabernacle and some were not. The Jews were directly the Gentiles were not directly. But both are waiting for its dissolving. For the Gentiles cannot have the fullness until the Jews do. In this regard they are both in the same position. That being as one grafted into Israel's spiritual things, not natural things}
being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Cr 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {Both Jews and Gentiles}
2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body {of this old tabernacle made with hands}, we are absent from the Lord: {waiting for his second appearance}
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {incorrectly translated. "We walk not by appearance" see 5:12 "them which glory in appearance, and not in heart" IE those that have confidence in the law}
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the {old covenant} body, and to be present with the Lord. {as opposed to those who do not walk by faith and glory in appearance, 5:12}
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present {as Jews} or absent {as Gentiles}, we may be accepted of him. {At his coming}
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
{His body is the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. But it is the transitional body awaiting the second appearance.}
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, {the wrath about to be} we {the apostles} persuade men; but we {the apostles} are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
The issue then is, why make it about us as if we are the audience as they were?
No we make it about us as one's looking back saying thank you Lord. The revelation of God's unconditional love has been given in its fullness displacing forever types and figures of good things that we now have.
Blessings Barry
Most of the added notes between { and } are unnecessary, and confusing,
IMHO.
Here is R.F. Weymouth's translation.
Chapter 5
For we know that if this poor tent, our earthly house, is taken down, we have in Heaven a building which God has provided, a house not built by human hands, but eternal.
For in this one we sigh, because we long to put on over it our dwelling which comes from Heaven--
if indeed having really put on a robe we shall not be found to be unclothed.
Yes, we who are in this tent certainly do sigh under our burdens, for we do not wish to lay aside that with which we are now clothed, but to put on more, so that our mortality may be absorbed in Life.
And He who formed us with this very end in view is God, who has given us His Spirit as a pledge and foretaste of that bliss.
We have therefore a cheerful confidence. We know that while we are at home in the body we are banished from the Lord;
for we are living a life of faith, and not one of sight.
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.
And for this reason also we make it our ambition, whether at home or in exile, to please Him perfectly.
For we must all of us appear before Christ's judgement-seat in our true characters, in order that each may then receive an award for his actions in this life, in accordance with what he has done, whether it be good or whether it be worthless.
Therefore, because we realize how greatly the Lord is to be feared, we are endeavouring to win men over, and God recognizes what our motives are, and I hope that you, in your hearts, recognize them too.Doug
Doug, our physical body is not made with hands. The old temple was made with hands.
It is God that formed us in the womb not man.
And this fact IMO effectively undoes the notion that this is anything but the old covenant house that they are waiting to end.
This is IMHO the real problem with the common physical verses spiritual dichotomy. It breaks down quickly in context.
Adam was made a man of the dust but was not declared a man "of the dust" until he came under law. The problem is not with the physical.
The issue always was trying to make one's own image by coming under law. Wherein merely natural potential is seen to be independent of God and could then have a righteousness of its own. This is called "first the natural".
God has no problem with physicality, he created it. He has a problem with independence.
In the flesh does not mean, in the physical. It means under law, in an independent human potential.
Value is now to be seen as a gift of God through God's unconditional love. This is why types and figures had to go. The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.
It was always about God's covenant people. To be a light to the world. Neither Adam nor Israel could really be that light. And that is what it is about. The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.
Now that transformation took 40 years or one generation.
Now if you Doug or anyone else wishes to think that covenant is not at the focus of all of this then that is your choice. You certainly do not have to believe what I believe. If you wish to believe that the coming of Christ is yet before us then you are free to do so as far as I'm concerned.
Each of us chooses what we want to believe. And then we live with those chooses at least for the time we have here.
Quote Doug:
Jesus suffered, and gave his life for us. And so, those who love him, offer themselves as a "living sacrifice."
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Do you see the word "reasonable"? It is reasonable for us to submit ourselves to God, because he is a loving God.
End quote.
Not really sure why you are approaching this from this angle.
Paul did preach a wrath to come did he not? What was Peter saying then in 1 Peter 4:18? Just trying to understand.
Perhaps I should let this thread go from my own vantage point, and allow the many posts given so far to speak for themselves. Me continually adding to them and repeating may not be of any benefit to anyone at this time. And it certainly is not my thread (nor my forum for that matter) to do with as I wish.
I'll give my thoughts on Zech. 14 at some other point perhaps.
Many blessings to you Doug.
Love Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 07:04:51 PM
The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.
The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.
YEAH!!!! PRAISE GOD. Thank YOU JESUS.
Quote from: Zeek on November 28, 2009, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 07:04:51 PM
The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.
The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.
YEAH!!!! PRAISE GOD. Thank YOU JESUS.
:HeartThrob: :Gclap:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 28, 2009, 07:04:51 PM
Doug, our physical body is not made with hands. The old temple was made with hands.
It is God that formed us in the womb not man.
And this fact IMO effectively undoes the notion that this is anything but the old covenant house that they are waiting to end.
If you mean to suggest that 2 Cor. 5:1-11 refers to the Jewish temple, I find that idea absurd. In this chapter, Paul is speaking of our bodies as "tabernacles." See any commentary. And this is consistent with what he said elsewhere, for example 1 Cor. 6:19: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
Similarly Peter wrote, "I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder..." [2 Peter 1:13] In the NT, our bodies represent a "house" or "tent" or "tabernacle" for the spirit of God. That is what Paul is discussing in 2 Cor. 5. Not the Jerusalem temple.
Doug
Just a few brief notes on your last post if I may. Hope no one minds.
Doug, if I believed commentaries I would not believe that God is love. :bigGrin:
About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief:
It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
What tabernacle was made with hands?
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
The contrast is clearly between a tabernacle made with hands and one that is not.
The tabernacle made with hands is the old covenant tabernacle. It is the one Paul wished to see dissolved.
The physical body was not made with hands. This the scriptures are IMO very clear on. We were made by God himself.
However Paul spoke elsewhere about the temple made with hands and that was the old tabernacle of the old covenant. The one that still stood when Paul wrote these points.
Just to touch on the term Body:
The term Body is scripture can mean several different things.
Here for example:
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
The "body of Moses" in Jude 9 is not a rotting corps that Satan wanted but was rather, "Israel" itself. Israel was the body of Moses.
This is an example to show that it is good to keep in mind when reading the bible that we are not reading a "western" book but more of an eastern book.
See my little commentary on 2 Corinthians 5 in an above post. You will see that I include the aspect of the "Body of Christ" there as part of the summation. [Think I did LOL!]
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 03:32:37 AM
Just a few brief notes on your last post if I may. Hope no one minds.
Doug, if I believed commentaries I would not believe that God is love. :bigGrin:
About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief:
It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5
These verses do indeed allude to "tents," or "tabernacles," such as the Israelites dwelt in when they were in the wilderness, and there is a contrast between those tents, and the stone and timber houses that they had when they dwelt in the promised land.
These were metaphors that Paul used to illustrate the contrast between our present human, mortal state, and our eternal inheritance, that we will have at the resurrection.
Barry's interpretation obscures this. :bsad:
2 Cor. 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.The death of a Christian is described as our "earthly house of this tabernacle" being destroyed. The word "tabernacle" refers to a "tent."
The James Burton Coffman Commentary says:
Earthly house ... tabernacle ...
The word here is actually "tent," which is as good a symbol of that which is transient and temporary as could be imagined. Paul was a tentmaker, and this is exactly the type of metaphor that should have been expected from him; and, added to that was the fact of Israel's having dwelt in tents during the forty years of the wilderness wanderings. No tent could last permanently when exposed to the elements; and the same is true of people's mortal bodies when exposed to the inevitable erosion of time.http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=005 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=005)Our present bodies are subject to infirmities as we age. But our inheritance, that God is preparing is not subject to decay. Coffman says, when we are "clothed with that wonderful and glorious spiritual body, decay and death shall be no more; and the soul of the redeemed shall enjoy eternal life... The great affirmation of Christianity is that all of the subliminal longings for immortality in human hearts shall be gloriously realized in Christ Jesus."
2 Cor. 5:2
For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven.Coffman writes:
In this we groan ...
has reference to mortal infirmity and the increasing burden of years which press more and more upon every earthly life. Paul's own extraordinary hardships and sufferings might have been in view primarily in this place; but, as Kelcy said, "In this body we groan from pains to which flesh is heir." Or, as Filson stated it: "This reflects Paul's desire to be free from the afflictions and imperfections of this life."
Longing to be clothed upon ...
The notion that Paul was here expressing a dread of being a disembodied spirit during the interval between death and the judgment is obviously incorrect. "Clothed upon" does not refer to something Paul hoped for at death but to the ultimate replacement of the old body with a new one in the final day. The idea is that of "putting on a new garment to replace the old one." Some commentators, arguing from the peculiar expression "clothed upon," have interpreted this as something that would be done to the physical body, and not to something that would replace it. Doug
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup: If we're not hoping to live and not die, then we are as those that have no hope. Blessings....
Hey Doug and Cardinal,
To reiterate:
The physical body is not made with hands. God made it. There is no scripture anywhere that suports any other posibility.
Coffman Commentary says:
A building from God ...
This does not deny that people's mortal bodies are also, in a sense, "from God"; but it has special reference to that God-created spiritual body which shall replace the decaying bodies of mortal flesh.
A house not made with hands ...
Paul made tents with his hands; but the glorious resurrection body is far above and beyond anything that human hands might contrive.
Did that actually deal with the problem of the verse. Clearly not IMO. The physical body is not made with hands anywhere in scripture is and contrary to the fact that God made us.
God does not have a problem with the physical. We do. And that's our problem.
If God had a problem with the physical then why did he stretch out the heavens as a "tent" to dwell in?
To reiterate:
Adam was made from the dust of the earth but was alive until he came under law so then was declared a man of the dust.
God did not have a problem with the physical.
A spiritual verses physical dichotomy is arbitrarily formed in our minds because of the implication of the independent human potential. Human potential is bound to the physical. So then Adam became merely a man of the dust when he came under law.
He was already physical and was alive.
You see you don't get a "resurrection" unless there is a reference of a preexisting life already. If Adam was never "alive" then there cannot be a resurrection. Adam was made physical but he was not created dead. He died coming under law.
Resurrection has nothing to do with post mortem continuity. Resurrection is life given for this life. Whether that be those at his coming or whether that be the historical life of the past lives lived here. Those who received not the promise who where not made perfect apart from the firstfruits.
So far as the "spirit" is concerned:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Resurrection is for this life not for post mortem continuity.
Paul as a Hebrew was still part of that made with hands tabernacle in that types and figures were still valid. Though he had no confidence in them he still respected them as figures of good things to come. The Gentiles were not permitted to participate in Israel's natural things.
This is why Paul refused to circumcise Titus.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
But what does Paul do to Timothy?
Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:
Act 16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
So then Titus who was completely Greek would not be circumcised but Timothy who was partly Jew could be without any contradiction in all that Paul taught the Churches of Galatia.
Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs {falsely of course}.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
What the heck is Paul thinking of!!!!!?????
2Cr 5:4 For we {the Hebrews} that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, {without a covenant clothing} but clothed upon {waiting for the fullness of the new covenant clothing}, that mortality {the old glory that is passing away 2 Corinthians the whole of chapter 2} might be swallowed up of {new covenant} life.
This is a reiteration of Chapter 3:
2Cr 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written [and] engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which [glory] was passing away,
2Cr 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Cr 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation [had] glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
2Cr 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Cr 3:11 For if what is passing away [was] glorious, what remains [is] much more glorious.
2Cr 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
2Cr 3:13 unlike Moses, [who] put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the [veil] is taken away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory {of the old covenant} to glory {of the new covenant}, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Now what death to life is this??
And what clothing is this:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The clothing is covenantal!
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
What death was to be swallowed up in victory? Covenant death!
They were not participating in the seed analogy because they were physically dead in the earth but rather because they were dieing with Christ.
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
This has nothing directly to do with physical death!! This is covenantal.
Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.
Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.
Whether we live or whether we die we are the lords. There is no denial on my part of postmortem continuity at all. Of course there is hope of life after death. It's just that this is not the topic at hand.
Blessing Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 08:40:10 PM
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
This has nothing directly to do with physical death!!
Sure it does.
IMO. Solving the problem of death is what the gospel is all about.
Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.The "great light" is the gospel that Jesus preached, about the kingdom of God. [Mat. 4:15-17]
But Barry's comments obscure the light and truth! :bsad:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 08:40:10 PM
This is covenantal.
God's covenant with Abraham was about mercy. [Psa. 106:1; 107:1, 118, 1,2,3,4,29; Psa. 136; Dan. 9:4, etc.] And the Gospel is the good news about the mercy of God to man, in dealing with the problem of death and sin. The gospel was preached to Abraham [Gal. 3:8] and Christ came "To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham." [Luke 1:72-73]
Dan. 9:27 says he will "confirm the covenant for one week" which is of course a prophetic week or seven times; the last part of it is called "a time, times and a half" which represents the entire age of the church. [Dan. 7:25, 12:7; Rev. 12:6, 14]
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 08:40:10 PM
Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.
The promise of a resurrection from the grave is at the very center of the true gospel. Paul said to Felix the governor:
Acts 24:14-15
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Who would say the Paul was referring to anything but the resurrection of humans from the grave here?
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 08:40:10 PM
Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.
Whether we live or whether we die we are the lords. There is no denial on my part of postmortem continuity at all. Of course there is hope of life after death. It's just that this is not the topic at hand.
Blessing Barry
Barry's comments obscure the great truths of the gospel, in the epistles of Paul, about the resurrection of the saints to immortality, as he tries to promote his preterist opinions. What a shame! The great light of Christ's resurrection exposes that flawed interpretation, because Jesus remains alive. His generation has not passed away! Christ is the only human who has obtained immortality.
1 Tim. 6:15-16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Doug
Hey Doug,
Quote:
But Barry's comments obscure the light and truth!
End quote.
Quote.
Barry's comments obscure the great truths of the gospel,
End quote.
Kind of like being in a room where people are talking about you and they know that you can here them :)
I'll make this my last post on this thread to offer a moment of reflection in my absence. I'm not upset in any way just think it's wise.
Understanding clothing:
Clothing is covenantal and relates to righteousness, justification, and vindication.
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle {of the old covenant order as illustrated in my above post} do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
This is clearly what Paul is alluding too and not some bodiless spirit waiting for the resurrection which would in no way correspond to the Adam situation.
Paul is saying that the end result is not to be "unclothed" but rather God's eternal clothing which is the eternal covenant. Mortality and corruptibility of the old covenant that was passing away, is "swallowed up of life" (2 Corinthians chapter 3, being transformed from the ministry of death to life from the glory of the old which is passing away to the glory of the new).
Adam was in essence a covenant man without clothing. Because he did not need one because he did not have "history" and because he did not know independence (IE come under law).
Adam did not have a revelation of God's unconditional love. So he was not "clothed" with this. Nor could he be. He could not know unconditional love without first knowing conditions. Which equates with being judged and condemned in his "conscience".
So Adam was naked and was not ashamed. He had no history. He is unclothed.
Paul is saying that the result of the taking away of the old tabernacle made with hands, is not to be naked but rather to be covered with the unconditional love of God.
The covering is always covenantal.
Adam's death was sin death. To that there is a first death and a second death. Hence Jude's "twice dead".
Adam died when he knew sin. So he needed a covering. Unconditional love was not yet revealed, so he needed a natural covering. He fully became a natural man, so he needed a natural covering. God gave him an animal skin to cover his nakedness from himself (not from God), in an independent human potential.
This natural covering would end. That's the second death. Israel came to embody the natural covering.
They are a micro cosmos of the whole.
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.
Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
But if you show unconditional love to one of your children then you have shown it to all of your children.
The death that spread to all men is sin death.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Paul poetically exemplifies this in himself as one under law for righteousness as a Hebrew apart from Christ.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
This is not speaking of biological death. It never did speak of this except only as the point of becoming merely a man of the dust as one who is in the status of an independent human potential. This is where Adam was declared to be a man of the dust covenantally. Prior to this he was biological and naked and not ashamed but very much alive.
God likes the physical so much that he stretched out the heavens as a tent to dwell in. He likes potential so much that he created chaos and then started working with it. Now he is giving his offspring similar opportunities in our short duration here!
However:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
The law does not govern the spirit once the spirit has left the body.
In 1 Peter, the spirits in prison are in prison "during the construction of the ark".
Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands.
Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.
Clothing is covenantal.
As long as types and figures are present, they cannot see the fullness of love without condition.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {See 1 Cor. 8:3 for a definition of "known"}
The types and figures have to be removed. The law has to end. The old tabernacle has to be dissolved.
We are clothed in the revelation of God's love without condition. Death has been swallowed up of life. And I will abide in the house of the Lord forever.
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
If the above verse is an expression of Paul's concern about being a spirit without a body then why does he not express that concern anywhere else?
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Apparently Paul himself went there did not even know, and could not even say!
He's not worried about it here:
Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Phl 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Phl 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
In fact it does not look like he is saying that at all does it? But why?
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
What does this mean then?
Acts 24:14-15
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the life of this life in the consummation of the age.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
The resurrection of the dead is not for the purpose of given disembodied spirits new bodies. Rather it brings to life the life of this life. How does that even make any sense. Why would they be waiting for the resurrection to get a new body? If God wants to give them one in heaven or paradise or whatever one wants to call it, does God have to wait for something to take place here on earth? And why?
That make really no sense IMO. On the contrary if resurrection is for this life then waiting for the law to end paints the full picture of resurrection.
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. { without resurrection their life is then never vindicated because the law would always cast a shadow on that life}
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Why and how???
According to the seed analogy of that which is typically derived from this context this would be impossible. Because the seed cannot come alive unless it dies. If this death is biological then all cannot be changed unless they all die biologically.
If the death is covenantal, then all can come alive, both them there in their life span and those who have already fallen asleep historically. Biological death however is then not a prerequisite.
If however this is about Biological death such is then the prerequisite because the body must die to then live. Death is essential in this scenario.
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
What is he talking about?
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
And that is what I've been saying from the beginning. It is resurrection out of sin death.
The body of transition for the firstfuits was the body of Christ.
There are only two men in the Chapter. Adam and Christ.
It is not the resurrection of the bodies! It is the resurrection of the Body.
Just as in Jude the Body of Moses was Israel. This is not a western book we are reading. These folks spoke in concepts of "collectives" that many people were a part of.
Blessings and love
Barry
my :2c:
We need to look at both sides of the 'coin' so to speak.
the curses and blessings. Just as the token of the Holy spirit
was given as to the inheritance of those that beleived and put
faith in Jesus Christ, so,too the curses entered the house of
the robber and theif [jews chose this spirit over Christ]
which resulted in their house[1st temple] becoming desolate.
Now those that received Christ fled the coming destruction
per the prophecy of Jesus. A man's years are 70 years..
think it a coincidence that the old temple was destroyed in 70
AD? That wicked generation's house became desolate in 70AD
Jesus Christ was perfect among a perverse generation,and
those that put faith in him,were preserved from the judgemnt
of that wicked generation.
so, this generation shall not pass until all things are fufilled
means both those forgiven in Christ..and those that rejected
the Christ to their own demise.
For the Christ seed is for regeneration of degenerated man...
and the 42 generation heralded the promised seed. A
generation is 70 years, counting down from 42 you have the
year 2940, minus the present year of 2010 = 930...which is
minus 70 or minus the wicked generation that refused Christ
in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Also Adam lived 930 years in
the flesh= 70 years short and the cutting off of that wicked
generation in man. For God Himself cuts the days short or no
flesh would be saved
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 30, 2009, 05:02:05 PM
It is not the resurrection of the bodies! It is the resurrection of the Body.
:banana: :banana: :trampoline: :trampoline:
QuoteAs long as types and figures are present, they cannot see the fullness of love without condition.
Yes Bro the veil , that has hid Christ that is to say His flesh
we love to SEE HIM ..
IS THIS WHY WE EAT hIS FLESH AND DRINK hIS BLOOD FOR STRENGTH AND THE END WE see him as He is a Spiritual Giant ? revealed
renown from no reputation to known by all every knee with bow and every tongue confess Him ... than can we Love as we ought ..
lets clarify
flesh and blood cannot inhert the kingdom of God , but if we eat and Drink Jesus blood we will be full of Jesus Christ and SEE HIM we cannot keep eating and drinking one anothers blood we wont see Jesus that way
see how simple some are i am one who cannot get it complicated .. :mblush:
:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....
PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 30, 2009, 06:41:47 PM
:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....
PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.
and what does the second covenant "spiritual" mean to you?
seems to me that you think it is a journey from the "old to new", but in an "inward way"? ie: that one must walk through the "spiritual old" to the "spiritual new"? ie: an inward journey
is that what the second "spiritual new" means to you?
and because you used the word "
but" to Barry, re: natural mindset and "spiritual second", I take it you don't see him seeing the
second covenant as "spiritual"? can you explain why you perceive Barry to be saying that re: the second? I'd be willing to bet, he sees the second as "spiritual" too. Hopefully he'll respond too.
this "spiritual" definition of the second, to me; is very important; and hopefully will "tie" some things together for me.
thanks.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 30, 2009, 06:41:47 PM
:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....
PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.
Yes, of course. That's why there is no longer Greek or Jew. There is no bloodline that is over another. It no longer has anything to do with circumstances of birth on this earth, but of birth from above.
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[Although I cannot say why it is this way. Why did God do it this way?]
Because the first man returns to the earth from which he came
and the secound man returns to God
Quote from: sheila on November 30, 2009, 07:48:03 PM
Because the first man returns to the earth from which he came
and the secound man returns to God
So it is just illustrative of a truth that was always there?
There was always only one covenant?
One thing people tend to forget, the first covenant with Abraham, the Gentile, was with all the peoples of the world--
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
And, with Jesus likewise--
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Because there was always only one covenant seed.
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 30, 2009, 06:41:47 PM
:cloud9: Amen guys, the second covenant is one that is spiritual........Blessings....
PS to Barry........I do see some of the natural mindset things you're seeing, but the second covenant is spiritual.
Forgive me for lying about my last post :)
Spiritual is not anti physical. It is anti independence.
"Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" is speaking of the
independence of the person under the natural covenant and not the biology of the person as a fact of physicality.
If we think it is biology then we can never fully accept God's unconditional love while we are here for we
then will always be at odds with being here.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Jhn 1:13 Which were born,
not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.
The above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not
flesh and bones,
as ye see me have. Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And
he took [it], and did eat before them.
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. How so?
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,
made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
The flesh as biology is never the definition of the point in question. But rather it is the law that made the flesh the flesh that it was. "in the flesh" means under law.
Gal 1:14 And profited in the
Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately
I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is]
death; but to be spiritually minded [is]
life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. What is Paul saying then:
1Cr 15:49 And as we have
borne the image of the earthy, we shall also
bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:56
The sting of death [is] sin; and the
strength of sin [is] the law. 1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.
Adam was alive and then he died. He died because he did not have a relelation of the
unconditional love of God. He became theirfore fully a man of the dust and a man of the flesh.
We are given more aboundant life than Adam ever had because we are clothed in the immortality of love without condition.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
But this is accomplished in its fullness in the end of types and figures.
If biology itself defines the meaning is types and figures then we can never fully know God's unconditional love.
And that IMHO would be crying shame. And that IMHO is why Christians constantly struggle in guilt and performance and can never really just let go and let God. They don't feel fully covered.
JMO
Barry
Quote from: BarryThe above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.
Yes. I really like that. Which is why he covered them with animal skins--it was the only thing he could cover them with under the law. This is why those who consider themselves under the law see everyone else as animals. But, they themselves will suffer the same fate--
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. --Psa 82
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2009, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: BarryThe above is not defined in biology. The issue is flesh and blood under law shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Victory over what, our biology?
Victory over our physicality?
No. Victory over the law, which made flesh the flesh that it was which was death.
Yes. I really like that. Which is why he covered them with animal skins--it was the only thing he could cover them with under the law. This is why those who consider themselves under the law see everyone else as animals. But, they themselves will suffer the same fate--
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
--Psa 82
Yes Molly,
2Pe 2:12 But these, as
natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally,
as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.Dan 4:30
The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? Dan 4:31 While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar:
and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws]. Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
IMHO is was not God intent that man stay forever in this mentality.
When he made man and women he said that it was very good.
God said that we are wonderfully made.
He calls us his offspring.
Just some thoughts.
Barry
QuoteIt is anti independence
You know when i read the shack , it helped me see this more clear
of what Adam/Eve us was/ are experiencing,
God gave him dominion over the earth and all Gods creatures
that may make one pridefully free and independent , their cominunion with God was in the cool of the day a breeze / Spirit perhaps
when that was cut off they were forced outside of Eden the garden of God
independence
–noun 1. Also, independency. the state or quality of being independent.
2. freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.
3. Archaic. a competency.
seems that was a real mistake on Adams / our part to even think such things , knowing better now and to be forgiven of sin / guilt offerings :mblush:
Quote from: rosered on November 30, 2009, 09:38:56 PM
QuoteIt is anti independence
You know when i read the shack , it helped me see this more clear
of what Adam/Eve us was/ are experiencing,
God gave him dominion over the earth and all Gods creatures
that may make one pridefully free and independent , their cominunion with God was in the cool of the day a breeze / Spirit perhaps
when that was cut off they were forced outside of Eden the garden of God
independence
–noun 1. Also, independency. the state or quality of being independent.
2. freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.
3. Archaic. a competency.
seems that was a real mistake on Adams / our part to even think such things , knowing better now and to be forgiven of sin / guilt offerings :mblush:
It was the original temptation--you don't need the Big Man--
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. --Gen 3
But this is the lie. They are gods to whom the word of God came--but they will die like men.
wow that was awesome Molly :girlheart:
so true this is ...
and the Lord also said
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say your of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
the little gods as men thing really makes ya think !!
Quote from: rosered on November 30, 2009, 10:24:30 PM
wow that was awesome Molly :girlheart:
so true this is ...
and the Lord also said
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say your of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
the little gods as men thing really makes ya think !!
Yes, and think we shall. There (in what you said) we see both the risk of neglecting our potential as the offspring of God and how wonderful that really is, and also the risk of pride through independence as Molly brought up as that attached to the temptation of the serpent in the garden.
Act 17:28 For
in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also
his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as
we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Dogs don't come from cats. Cows don't come from chickens.
But we are the offspring of God.
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 30, 2009, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 30, 2009, 10:24:30 PM
wow that was awesome Molly :girlheart:
so true this is ...
and the Lord also said
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that you , being a man, maket yourself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say your of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
the little gods as men thing really makes ya think !!
Yes, and think we shall. There (in what you said) we see both the risk of neglecting our potential as the offspring of God and how wonderful that really is, and also the risk of pride through independence as Molly brought up as that attached to the temptation of the serpent in the garden.
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Dogs don't come from cats. Cows don't come from chickens.
But we are the offspring of God.
Barry
Exactly Bro Barry , exercising pride in that earthly wisdom /of first adam
that we call no man common or unclean
this could very easily be the Lords Spirit speaking through any one He so chooses to do ..... our correction and being taught of the voices of many waters from above and many membered Body it is Christs ...
example
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].
Act 10:26
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Act 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in,
and found many that were come together. Act 10:28 And he said unto them, You know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God has shown
me that I should not call any man common or unclean. with what God gave Peter he went and shared this with everyone from that point on
showing obedience as the Lord showed Cornelius the same mercy
because of fearing the Lord the begining of godly wisdom to his house .
Joining in the same Body and One Spirit the Lords as the Lord gathers .
1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on the very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel:
4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.
9 The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.
10 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain."
14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, "Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations."
16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, 19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the LORD said to him, "Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them."
23 Moses said to the LORD, "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' "
24 The LORD replied, "Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the LORD, or he will break out against them."
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
--Exodus 19
Exodus 19--This is where they make their covenant with death. Man's pride, thinking they can do it themselves--'we will keep all your laws, LORD'. A month later they are dancing around a golden calf.
But, it's worse than that. Pretty soon they move from God's law to their own manmade laws--whereby they make themselves god--even to this day with their 2000 page bills--so--
Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
They think because they can make laws [which they themselves do not have to keep and will benefit from while the rest bear the burden]--the covenant with death--they are God himself--but they are wrong--
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
--Isa 28
Everyone will be measured against Jesus.
Philippians 3:8-11, 13-16, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
8...that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
13...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
16 Moreover, in what we outstrip others, there is to be a mutual disposition to be observing the elements by the same rule.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.
Pressing toward one thing: that the power of His resurrection would be so known by me that I also attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead; to be possessed by God in His upon high calling, summoned into a higher dimension in Christ; and, that our body of humiliation be conformed to the body of His glory. These are all descriptions of the same thing. It is a race against death, a race to the finish (mature) line.
Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for (lit., into) us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
There is a glory to be unveiled into us that will reveal us in creation. What is made, the outward cosmos itself is to be liberated from the permeating tendency to degeneration enslaving it now. Animals strive that the stronger reproduce more lest the successive gradually degrading copies made of our bodies would produce weaker and lesser offspring. This physical dimension has the testimony within it of a better world coming. The rat struggles in the trap to achieve the better future she believes in. She expects a liberty contrary to evidential experience. That born of God inwardly will put on the immortal body and be born of God in their physical nature which will be liberated from the Adam in which all dies into authority over all things in the material cosmos. "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."
More and more, the glory will be manifesting in the outer physical realm. The realm in which God is in control, His kingdom, is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. The glory transforms. All creation will be set free.
"Real Truth" IN End Times
Today's versions of the end times events are "mostly" all lies. Spoken by un-spiritual Mankind. If you have the will,want,heart felt desire to know truth, then go to Gary Sigler's web site and click the link to J.P. Eby or type in www.sigler.org/eby/eby_revelation
I have studied many people's opioion on end-times and found
all but Eby's lacking in many areas. It is extensive, but very educational....
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: reFORMer on December 01, 2009, 07:56:00 AM
Philippians 3:8-11, 13-16, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
8...that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
13...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
16 Moreover, in what we outstrip others, there is to be a mutual disposition to be observing the elements by the same rule.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.
Pressing toward one thing: that the power of His resurrection would be so known by me that I also attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead; to be possessed by God in His upon high calling, summoned into a higher dimension in Christ; and, that our body of humiliation be conformed to the body of His glory. These are all descriptions of the same thing. It is a race against death, a race to the finish (mature) line.
Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for (lit., into) us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
There is a glory to be unveiled into us that will reveal us in creation. What is made, the outward cosmos itself is to be liberated from the permeating tendency to degeneration enslaving it now. Animals strive that the stronger reproduce more lest the successive gradually degrading copies made of our bodies would produce weaker and lesser offspring. This physical dimension has the testimony within it of a better world coming. The rat struggles in the trap to achieve the better future she believes in. She expects a liberty contrary to evidential experience. That born of God inwardly will put on the immortal body and be born of God in their physical nature which will be liberated from the Adam in which all dies into authority over all things in the material cosmos. "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."
More and more, the glory will be manifesting in the outer physical realm. The realm in which God is in control, His kingdom, is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. The glory transforms. All creation will be set free.
Hey Reformer,
These are the type of questions that have brought me to a very different view:
Is the "creation" in view there the whole physical Universe or is it an element of intelligent creation?
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel
to all creation.
21 that the
creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the
children of God.
23 Yet not only so, but
we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit,
we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
Is freedom from the physicality of our existence or is it from sin?
To what was "creation" in bondage?
Did Adam's eating of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil corrupt far away Galaxies?
Did Adam's eating of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil corrupt the whole of God's dwelling that he stretched out as a tent to dwell in?
Is the subject matter the existence of entropy in material creation or is it about our confidence in ourselves wherein our independent potential is then limited to the natural only?
For Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone". He did not say, "Man shall not live by bread at all".
Just some thoughts,
Blessings Barry
Amen Lee,
Brother Preston well serves the Lord.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 08:40:10 PM
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
What death was to be swallowed up in victory? Covenant death!
They were not participating in the seed analogy because they were physically dead in the earth but rather because they were dieing with Christ.
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
This has nothing directly to do with physical death!! This is covenantal.
Resurrection had nothing to do with post mortem continuity.
Salvation had nothing nor has nothing to do with going to heaven to be with God.
The spirit returned and returns to God who gave it. Always has always will.
Resurrection was out of the law.
Salvation is for this life.
Brian Simmons says:
The doctrines of Hyper-Preterism teach that Jesus Christ's second advent happened in A.D. 70, at the fall of Herod's temple, and that the resurrection of believers – indeed, of all men – happened at that time. In order to bolster their strange theory, H.P.'s spiritualize every eschatological passage that speaks of resurrection. They also employ a "critical-historical" hermeneutic, which narrows down all eschatological fulfillment to the first century.
http://antipreterist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/hyper-preterisms-resurrection-error/ (http://antipreterist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/hyper-preterisms-resurrection-error/)Hmm..
Doug
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 01, 2009, 11:58:30 AM
"Real Truth" IN End Times
Today's versions of the end times events are "mostly" all lies. Spoken by un-spiritual Mankind. If you have the will,want,heart felt desire to know truth, then go to Gary Sigler's web site and click the link to J.P. Eby or type in www.sigler.org/eby/eby_revelation
I have studied many people's opioion on end-times and found all but Eby's lacking in many areas. It is extensive, but very educational....
Lee Damboise II
I completely agree with Lee. Brother Eby's writings ring the truest in my Spirit! He is an anointed teacher and a very humble man. But the most extensive site for his works is his own:
kingdombiblestudies.org
I believe it is run by his son. May the Lord bless you with wisdom, knowledge and understanding!
Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/
Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,
Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.
To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods.
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.
Blessings to you Doug,
Barry
:cloud9: Well, I think they're mistaken then, because God led me to the truth of UR, and I'm not preterist. Blessings....
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 02, 2009, 06:48:07 AM
Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/
Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,
Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.
To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods.
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.
I think Brian is a dispensationalist, so I probably would not agree with all he says either. Yet he may be well informed about hyper preterism, and his comment may still be accurate. The article you linked to was one written by Dorothy Anderson who was a hyper preterist but recently abandoned that position. Some posts of hers on the subject are at:
Hyper-Preterism for Dummies by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Return From Oz by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/)
The Devil is in the Details by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Re-Shuffling the Creed Card Deck by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/)
The Dangerous Theological Errors of Hyper-Preterism Part 7: Was Jesus a False Prophet? by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Roderick Edwards is another person who left the hyper preterist position and has been actively fighting it.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html)Todd Dennis, webmaster of the Preterist Archive, left the hyper preterist position after 10 years.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html)There are many others who have seen the light!
Doug
Quote from: Cardinal on December 02, 2009, 06:57:46 AM
:cloud9: Well, I think they're mistaken then, because God led me to the truth of UR, and I'm not preterist. Blessings....
I agree with that wholeheartedly Cardinal. One need not be a Universalist because one is a Preterist. Nor does one need to be a Preterist because one is a universalist.
The fulfilled view does however run toward an understanding of common grace for all, for it does see the end of the law in AD 70 (which is the strength of sin). It sees the end of types and figures in the first century and so then see a New World since then.
IMO one need not be either a preterist or a Universalist by conviction. Everyone does believe what they want to and is free to do so as long as God allows for it in our personal Journeys. I respect that but do enjoy discussing the subject from a scripture based approach.
In regards to the topic of the thread, "end times", we can have and perhaps do have several different approaches to the subject.
If "end times" is purely a spiritual-personal experience between our ears then it is then neither past nor future, historically speaking but fulfilled between our ears.
If it is future, historically speaking then it is still presently being played out and touches on what is taking place between our ears.
If it is past, historically speaking then that also touches on what is taking place between our ears.
All three cannot be correct in the scriptures even though all three will have valuable truths that will touch us and help us grow.
All three cannot harmonize the vast reservoir of scriptures on the subject of end times, but all three will have valuable reference points we can all draw from.
Nevertheless the full implications of each scenario is very different and very different from the other and that is very intriguing to look into. And that in my book makes it worth discussing, yet as one's that love each other.
Blessing to you, Barry
Quote from: Doug on December 02, 2009, 01:50:23 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 02, 2009, 06:48:07 AM
Hey Doug,
One of the major arguments that Brian and others use against the fulfilled view is that it leads to "Universalism"
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/preterist-universaliam-global-or-local-by-dorothy-anderson/
Quote Brian Simmons:
"Hi Dorothy,
Interesting post. I agree with you that Hyper-Preterism leads directly to Universalism. The fact there are so many Universalists goes to show how one false conclusion easily leads to another."
End quote.
To my knowledge many people here are universalists and so it would appear that he would not necessarily carry that much weight as a trusted biblical scholar in this neck of the woods.
I would wish brother Brian all the very best in his ongoing studies of God's word. Personally speaking however there is much there at least at this time that I would not agree with.
I think Brian is a dispensationalist, so I probably would not agree with all he says either. Yet he may be well informed about hyper preterism, and his comment may still be accurate. The article you linked to was one written by Dorothy Anderson who was a hyper preterist but recently abandoned that position. Some posts of hers on the subject are at:
Hyper-Preterism for Dummies by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/hyper-preterism-for-dummies-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Return From Oz by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/return-from-oz-by-dorothy-anderson/)
The Devil is in the Details by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/the-devil-is-in-the-details-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Re-Shuffling the Creed Card Deck by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/re-shuffling-the-creed-card-deck-by-dorothy-anderson/)
The Dangerous Theological Errors of Hyper-Preterism Part 7: Was Jesus a False Prophet? by Dorothy Anderson
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/ (http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/the-dangerous-theological-errors-of-hyper-preterism-part-7-was-jesus-a-false-prophet-by-dorothy-anderson/)
Roderick Edwards is another person who left the hyper preterist position and has been actively fighting it.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book_Reviews/2009_edwards_wsttb.html)
Todd Dennis, webmaster of the Preterist Archive, left the hyper preterist position after 10 years.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/dennis-todd_p_01.html)
There are many others who have seen the light!
Doug
Hey Doug,
Google "preterist heresy" and "ex-preterist".
Google "universalism heresy" and "ex-universalist" and see what you find.
Do we really care as a matter of our own personal convictions how many ex-universalists there are out there?
Personally speaking, I do not.
Even though ex-preterists are actually few and far between they are nevertheless very outspoken about their convictions and usually see Preteristism as a stepping stone to Universalism. I know Rodrick and Todd and they know of me. I wish them the very best in their ongoing study of God's word.
Although personally speaking, I'm not a Universalist in the strict sense of the word but do follow the Universal Reconciliation principle from a fulfilled perspective.
Wherein Unity is not made but realized. I'm not a universalists in that I do not see "Salvation"
as the ticket to go to heaven. But rather in terms of freedom from the law as pertains to end times. With also the present day application of a salvation to
serve others as the knowledge that God loves everyone unconditionally. So that such knowledge is the "salvation of the soul" in today's personal experience.
Blessings to you
Barry
Hi Barry
why would anyone want to limit God?
all things are possible with God
why not all 3 scenarios ?
can He not do whatever He wants with His things ?
Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Jhn 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Jhn 3:33 He that has received his testimony has set to his seal that God is true.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Jhn 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
"bottomless pit"
G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.
It's a horrible thought to be deceived. But they both deceive others and deceive themselves. They believe their own lies, and sink into a deception which is bottomless. That's the problem with deception, there is no foundation that can stand, no stopping point--this far and no further--nothing to stand on, just a sinking, sinking, sinking into a bottomless depravity, into the abussos.
Even the demons fear this state.
30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
--Luke 8
"the deep"
G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.
This is the tohu and bohu of Genesis 1:2--without form and void, a falling forever into nothingness.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
---Genesis 1
"the deep"
H8415
תּהם תּהום
tehôm tehôm
teh-home', teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep (place), depth.
For me, this is as close to Hell as it gets.
Quote from: rosered on December 02, 2009, 04:06:12 PM
Hi Barry
why would anyone want to limit God?
all things are possible with God
why not all 3 scenarios ?
can He not do whatever He wants with His things ?
Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Jhn 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Jhn 3:33 He that has received his testimony has set to his seal that God is true.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Jhn 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
Really great question that cuts right to the point.
But are we speaking of limiting God or are we speaking of our adapting our own agendas to his?
I firmly believe that all scripture is inspired by God and that it all harmonizes when correctly understood. [I do not have it all harmonized and never will.]
I do not in my understanding have whole books and chapters and epistles that are non or un-inspired for example.
Ether all is inspired or all is not. (And I'm saying it is and I'm not bringing up the topic for discussion but only but for illustration's sake that it cannot be both ways.)
Can both be true because God has no limits?
Not imo.
Is there a historical agenda to the Bible?
Did Christ become manifest at some point in history or is such a manifestation purely and only personal?
Can they both be correct and harmonized in the scriptures?
Not imo.
However I might have misunderstood you and so my response may be tinted with my own preconceptions. So it's up to me to be open to those possibilities and try and listen carefully.
Love ya, Barry
QuoteJhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
--1 Cor 15
QuoteCan both be true because God has no limits?
Not imo.
Is there a historical agenda to the Bible?
Did Christ become manifest at some point in history or is such a manifestation purely and only personal?
Can they both be correct and harmonized in the scriptures?
Not imo.
However I might have misunderstood you and so my response may be tinted with my own preconceptions. So it's up to me to be open to those possibilities and try and listen carefully.
Love ya, Barry
Thank you so much for your honest reply Bro Barry ,
It means alot
maybe some, such as I are to open minded , heaven open
and many find fault in this way of thinking ..
the Lord has always been with us as those back in that time of
Israel
in the Cloud / witness and pillar of fire
just as the great lights of the night and day have ruled
the Lord leads them just as today
the children of Day/ those that are Christs are the same cloud / witness Jesus comes in
just as the pillars of fire in the night to judge those that will be Christs
Num 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: [for] they have heard that thou LORD [art] among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and [that] thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
Neh 9:19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.
Isaiah 4 and 5 .. acts Acts 3 ;21 -26 Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. the same cloud witness of Heaven God the Father into you as we seen in pentecost
this is Jesus Christ hidden . with the law and prophets and it grew over history as the law was one pillar and the prophets another pillar of fire in Rev .
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud [this is the Lord Jesus Christ to me ] : and a rainbow [was] upon his head,[Israel /12 tribes] at the Cross and he is the resurrection and life] and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as
pillars of fire imo the cross of Jesus Christ has opened heaven for all each in their own order that is why no one can call the time or hour when the Lord comes if he take many at once or one by one all have been going all along , since the Cross mighty was the work of GOD though His Son Jesus Christ
could explain better if this makes no sense to you , but it will take some more effort on my part . :mblush:
God bless
Great post sis, and I think I understood a bit more. Forgive me for my analytical approach :)
Quote (emphasis mine):
imo the cross of Jesus Christ has opened heaven for all each in their own order that is why no one can call the time or hour when the Lord comes if he take many at once or one by one all have been going all along , since the Cross mighty was the work of GOD though His Son Jesus Christ
End Quote.
The discussion at this point then appears really more to be not so much whether the cross was historical or purely personal, [for your words, if I have correctly understood them is placing the cross in human history,] but rather to what degree does it now become personal since it is historical? [If I correctly understood you and am not putting my own thoughts onto your view.]
About your other points: To what degree do you see, the old temple that Solomon built as a house of God when God does not dwell in houses made with hands?
IE, yes God was with them but they did not have the revelation that Christ crucified was to bring into human history so they were bound by types and figures on some level and limited on some such level imo.
The subsequent question to this, is types and figures ending altogether?
If so when?
To what extent will that be or was historical?
Is their any historical-ness to it at all?
[Not to be obliging and ask a tone of questions, just thinking through so to speak]
Blessings Barry
Well after reading your post Bro Barry
I do see them as both historical and Spiritual and
both are very personal to whom God dealt / deals with them/us ..
the Word of God is more than just the written Word ,,,,,, which is historical and spiritual and personal in each one whom the Lords will effected them ..
QuoteThe discussion at this point then appears really more to be not so much whether the cross was historical or purely personal, [for your words, if I have correctly understood them is placing the cross in human history,] but rather to what degree does it now become personal since it is historical? [If I correctly understood you and am not putting my own thoughts onto your view.]
QuoteThe subsequent question to this, is types and figures ending altogether?
If so when?
To what extent will that be or was historical?
Is their any historical-ness to it at all?
1. Yes when we SEE JESUS CHRIST to me this is Spiritual and again personal
2. when He reveals Himself , we are visited by Him and His clouds
please take into account Paul saw Him and he/ Jesus had risen already
so have many over the couse of history and time and many did not see him or recognize Him ,as well though He was in their midst !
The Lord has been here all along thoughout ''His story'' the whole book is about Him and when we see Him as He reveals Himself to us
He is the begining and End
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]. Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and
said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them].
we have seen the Lord in His Glory and many have not still
So I ask you have you seen Jesus yet ? Spiritually speaking now
Quote from: rosered on December 02, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
So I ask you have you seen Jesus yet ? Spiritually speaking now
Yes.
God through Christ Jesus and the firstfruits-bride, did take away (fulfill) all types and figures and left an eternal revelation of the unconditional love of God which has produced an ongoing perpetual efficacy which is the glory of the bride.
He loves me and all without condition and has revealed this in human history.
He has taken away any need for anyone to live with any law between their ears as a measure of their worth or value before Him.
He is all and in all.
My veiw is that the problem remains people's sight and not in the need of any further historical markers. All historical markers have been fulfilled.
The problem is people's perception of law.
The perception of a need to prove or perform to establish one's own value factor.
IMO, doctrines still get in the way in people's minds because they do not see a present fulfilled gospel.
The short time frame of the actual transition of the ages is misappropriated into an elongated near eternal ongoing struggle and personal never coming Utopian like expectation. And this problem will never come to an end no mater how many personal revelations a person has, as long as one's expectations do not answer to a presently fulfilled revelation of unconditional love.
JMO
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 02, 2009, 11:30:58 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 02, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
So I ask you have you seen Jesus yet ? Spiritually speaking now
Yes.
God through Christ Jesus and the firstfruits-bride, did take away (fulfill) all types and figures and left an eternal revelation of the unconditional love of God which has produced an ongoing perpetual efficacy which is the glory of the bride.
He loves me and all without condition and has revealed this in human history.
He has taken away any need for anyone to live with any law between their ears as a measure of their worth or value before Him.
He is all and in all.
My veiw is that the problem remains people's sight and not in the need of any further historical markers. All historical markers have been fulfilled.
The problem is people's perception of law.
The perception of a need to prove or perform to establish one's own value factor.
IMO, doctrines still get in the way in people's minds because they do not see a present fulfilled gospel.
The short time frame of the actual transition of the ages is misappropriated into an elongated near eternal ongoing struggle and personal never coming Utopian like expectation. And this problem will never come to an end no mater how many personal revelations a person has, as long as one's expectations do not answer to a presently fulfilled revelation of unconditional love.
JMO
Blessings Barry
:thumbsup: let us go on into perfection / Christ :icon_flower:
Therefore leaving
the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of
the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hbr 6:3 And
this will we do, if God permit.
Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
lots to consider ... love book of Hebrews seems to answer alot ..
and Hebrews 7 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hbr 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hbr 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe,
of which no man gave attendance at the altar. Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident
that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which
tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hbr 7:15 And
it is yet far more evident:
for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there arises another priest, Hbr 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. just look how far the Lord is come ... we have no more excuse , it seems
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 03:32:37 AM
About 20 years ago I used to go on some nice long walks with a few verses in my hand that I would read over and over again and think about. Ones like this which are very hard to understand.
This text presents some difficulties in many of the commentaries because it seems to read differently from the typical interpretation of 1 Cor. Chapter 15. It looks to some commentators that Paul had changed his mind about some things.
Anyway here is a few of my thoughts in very brief:
It seems to me that the principle of consistency of terms used locks us into the old covenant tabernacle, at least in the first few verses of 2 Cor. 5
You seem to be promoting the views of hyper preterist Max King, who misinterpreted 2 Cor. 5:1-10 in a way quite similar to what you have posted.
"The primary application deals with the development and rise of the Christian system itself." II Cor.5:1-10 "primarily...applies to the fall of Judaism and the rise of Christianity."[56] Indeed, the fall of Judaism and rise of Christianity is the "primary resurrection." Max King, The Spirit of Prophecy (Warren OH, 1971 ed.), pp. p. 191, 210.
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmaxking-quoth-MaxKing.htm (http://www.preteristcentral.com/pmaxking-quoth-MaxKing.htm)Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 03:32:37 AM
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
...
Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Obviously, Stephen and Paul were contrasting the earthly temple at Jerusalem with the church. The earthly temples were figures and types of the church.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on November 29, 2009, 03:32:37 AM
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
What tabernacle was made with hands?
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
The contrast is clearly between a tabernacle made with hands and one that is not.
The tabernacle made with hands is the old covenant tabernacle. It is the one Paul wished to see dissolved.
The physical body was not made with hands. This the scriptures are IMO very clear on. We were made by God himself.
Below are some scriptures which refer the works of God's
hands. It seems to include the entire creation, including the saints.
Job believed he was the work of God's hands.
Job 14:15
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
The earth and all that is in it was made by God's hands.
Psalm 8:6
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
The heavens also are formed by God's hands, David said.
Psalm 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
David thought of himself as the work of God's hands.
Psalm 119:73
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
Psalm 138:8
The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.
Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.Who can say God does not have hands?
Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
God's sons are said to be the work of his hands.
Isaiah 45:11
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isaiah 60:21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Jesus committed his spirit into God hands.
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
The author of Hebrews warned about falling into the hands of God!
Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Doug
Yes Doug, the verses that you quote do say all the same thing which is that very much my point. For neither Paul nor his personal "body" was "made with hands" but rather by God (or God's hands if you will).
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {not made with human hands of course}
Paul is clearly waiting for the building or tabernacle that is "not made with hands". Of course then, the building or tabernacle he was presently in was indeed made with hands or else his sentence makes no sense.
So then the tabernacle and or building that he presently was in was one that was "made with hands".
Since God made us, it cannot be speaking of us in our physical body. Since Paul was formed in the womb by God, then he is clearly speaking of the old covenant tabernacle, the old covenant building which was "made with hands".
Paul considers himself still part of that old tabernacle as a Hebrew. James and all the other Jewish Christians including the other apostles felt at least the same way if not even stronger. They are still waiting for the end of types and figures and the way behind the veil is "not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle is yet standing"
See my previous points on this subject from Acts where Paul behaves exactly like a Hebrew that knows the types and figures were still valid and so then the Hebrews were still attached to them in ways that the Gentiles were not. That is why the context contrasts the "us and you" as the Hebrews and the Gentiles.
Both Jews and Gentiles are waiting for the fullness of the tabernacle from heaven but the New Jerusalem is still then "coming down out of heaven". the context is not about receiving a new personal body.
If it is then Paul stands in contradiction with the fact that he was made by God and not with hands of men.
The biblical evidence seems to indicate that Max King was indeed correct that this is speaking of the old covenant tabernacle that was made with hands.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: rosered on December 02, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
we have seen the Lord in His Glory and many have not still
So I ask you have you seen Jesus yet ? Spiritually speaking now
Barry...you didn't answer this question very well. Though you said, "Yes," it was not embellished with descriptions of that experience. You instead went into doctrinal thought processes and logical permutations of Scripture.
For myself at least, I'm interested in your experience with God, like conversion or regeneration, any crisis of repentance, work or event of sanctification, baptism in the Holy Spirit, miracles, visions, how you came to UR, ongoing leadings or prophetic insight into your own life...that sort of thing.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 03, 2009, 07:10:34 AM
Yes Doug, the verses that you quote do say all the same thing which is that very much my point. For neither Paul nor his personal "body" was "made with hands" but rather by God (or God's hands if you will).
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {not made with human hands of course}
Paul is clearly waiting for the building or tabernacle that is "not made with hands". Of course then, the building or tabernacle he was presently in was indeed made with hands or else his sentence makes no sense.
But you have made a great assumption here, about Paul's reference to the future, incorruptible inheritance of the saints as being "not made with hands."
Paul used the phrase "without hands" when he referred to the spiritual circumcision of believers.
Col. 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:Spiritual circumcision, or circumcision of the heart, referred to being God's people, obedient, faithful, and not "stiffnecked." It is mentioned in the law of Moses. [Deut. 10:16, 30:6] and in Jeremiah. [Jer. 4:4]
Paul called the church the
"circumcision." He said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Phil. 3:3]
In the building of the altars of sacrifice, in the Mosaic law, the stones that were used could not be stones that had been cut by man, with tools of iron.
Deut. 27:5
And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.The NT describes believers as "living stones."
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.Just as the stones of the altar of sacrifice could not be worked by hand, the "lively stones" of God's spiritual building are "not made with hands" but are living humans; neither are we justified by the works of the law, which is probably what "hands" alludes to, (as in Col. 2:11) but by faith.
In Dan. 2:34, Daniel refers to Christ as a "stone cut out without hands" which smites the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands.." It becomes a great mountain that fills the earth. This mountain is the church, also called Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem. [Heb. 12:22-23] So the idea of the entire church, or the kingdom of God, being "not made with hands," is from the prophecies of the OT.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 03, 2009, 07:10:34 AM
So then the tabernacle and or building that he presently was in was one that was "made with hands".
Since God made us, it cannot be speaking of us in our physical body. Since Paul was formed in the womb by God, then he is clearly speaking of the old covenant tabernacle, the old covenant building which was "made with hands".
No, the idea of stones being used that had not been shaped with tools of iron predates the temple. It is mentioned in Deut. 27:5, so cannot refer to the Jewish temple, which came centuries later, in the time of Solomon. At the time, the tabernacle was just a tent.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 03, 2009, 07:10:34 AM
Paul considers himself still part of that old tabernacle as a Hebrew. James and all the other Jewish Christians including the other apostles felt at least the same way if not even stronger. They are still waiting for the end of types and figures and the way behind the veil is "not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle is yet standing"
See my previous points on this subject from Acts where Paul behaves exactly like a Hebrew that knows the types and figures were still valid and so then the Hebrews were still attached to them in ways that the Gentiles were not. That is why the context contrasts the "us and you" as the Hebrews and the Gentiles.
Both Jews and Gentiles are waiting for the fullness of the tabernacle from heaven but the New Jerusalem is still then "coming down out of heaven". the context is not about receiving a new personal body.
If it is then Paul stands in contradiction with the fact that he was made by God and not with hands of men.
The biblical evidence seems to indicate that Max King was indeed correct that this is speaking of the old covenant tabernacle that was made with hands.
Blessings Barry
Max and his followers seem to have followed seducing spirits, not the spirit of Christ. IMO, they misinterpret the figures used by Paul, which were based on OT imagery. They try to dispense with prophecy entirely, saying it was all fulfilled in the first century, even the resurrection of the saints. Thus they are enemies of the gospel, and fulfill 1 Tim. 4:1-5, about people who depart from the faith.
Doug
:cloud9: Amen, notice the contrast here talking about the birth of the members of His ecclesia.......
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Couple of points before I would wish to continue in this conversation:
1)Quote:
Max and his followers seem to have followed seducing spirits, not the spirit of Christ. IMO, they misinterpret the figures used by Paul, which were based on OT imagery. They try to dispense with prophecy entirely, saying it was all fulfilled in the first century, even the resurrection of the saints. Thus they are enemies of the gospel, and fulfill 1 Tim. 4:1-5, about people who depart from the faith.
Doug
End quote.
Even though it is in your opinion it is not helpful IMO.
My reasoning is that from this point it just becomes a "no you are the spirit deceived heretic" back and forth.
I really try not to go there as easy as it is to do so when there is a difference of opinion that touches on a personally perceived self identity.
Also just to let you know in case you did not know, the term "hyper" preterist is an insult. Purposefully used in that way by some predominant folk who write and speak against the view. The more common term as used by those who hold to the fulfillment of all things written in the time of AD 70 is "full preterism" or myself, a "fulfillment advocate". It doesn't bother me in any way, but there may be other preteristic members here who might not like being called "hyper".
2) Quote Reformer:
Barry...you didn't answer this question very well. Though you said, "Yes," it was not embellished with descriptions of that experience. You instead went into doctrinal thought processes and logical permutations of Scripture.
For myself at least, I'm interested in your experience with God, like conversion or regeneration, any crisis of repentance, work or event of sanctification, baptism in the Holy Spirit, miracles, visions, how you came to UR, ongoing leadings or prophetic insight into your own life...that sort of thing.
End quote:
May I propose then that you PM me about it.
Perhaps you might consider starting a thread about "personal revelations" or "intuitive understanding" or "comparing personal conversion experiences" and let me know reformer by PM and I'll consider participating in the discussion topic. If there is a thread already started that embodies the intent of your question please do advise me of that. I do have a lot of ideas and views on the subject and it would IMO certainly derail this thread.
Personally speaking I do not mind anyone challenging any my views or holding to very different views of their own.
In his love, Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 03, 2009, 09:02:08 PM
Couple of points before I would wish to continue in this conversation:
1)Quote:
Max and his followers seem to have followed seducing spirits, not the spirit of Christ. IMO, they misinterpret the figures used by Paul, which were based on OT imagery. They try to dispense with prophecy entirely, saying it was all fulfilled in the first century, even the resurrection of the saints. Thus they are enemies of the gospel, and fulfill 1 Tim. 4:1-5, about people who depart from the faith.
Doug
End quote.
Even though it is in your opinion it is not helpful IMO.
My reasoning is that from this point it just becomes a "no you are the spirit deceived heretic" back and forth.
I really try not to go there as easy as it is to do so when there is a difference of opinion that touches on a personally perceived self identity.
Also just to let you know in case you did not know, the term "hyper" preterist is an insult. Purposefully used in that way by some predominant folk who write and speak against the view. The more common term as used by those who hold to the fulfillment of all things written in the time of AD 70 is "full preterism" or myself, a "fulfillment advocate". It doesn't bother me in any way, but there may be other preteristic members here who might not like being called "hyper".
A biblical name for it would be "the doctrine of Hymenæaus and Philetus." Paul associated it "profane and vain babblings," and with compared it with gangrene, a foul smelling sore.
2 Tim. 2:15-19
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.The word translated "canker" is gaggraina i.e., gangrene.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2009, 04:42:09 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 03, 2009, 09:02:08 PM
Couple of points before I would wish to continue in this conversation:
1)Quote:
Max and his followers seem to have followed seducing spirits, not the spirit of Christ. IMO, they misinterpret the figures used by Paul, which were based on OT imagery. They try to dispense with prophecy entirely, saying it was all fulfilled in the first century, even the resurrection of the saints. Thus they are enemies of the gospel, and fulfill 1 Tim. 4:1-5, about people who depart from the faith.
Doug
End quote.
Even though it is in your opinion it is not helpful IMO.
My reasoning is that from this point it just becomes a "no you are the spirit deceived heretic" back and forth.
I really try not to go there as easy as it is to do so when there is a difference of opinion that touches on a personally perceived self identity.
Also just to let you know in case you did not know, the term "hyper" preterist is an insult. Purposefully used in that way by some predominant folk who write and speak against the view. The more common term as used by those who hold to the fulfillment of all things written in the time of AD 70 is "full preterism" or myself, a "fulfillment advocate". It doesn't bother me in any way, but there may be other preteristic members here who might not like being called "hyper".
A biblical name for it would be "the doctrine of Hymenæaus and Philetus." Paul associated it "profane and vain babblings," and with compared it with gangrene, a foul smelling sore.
2 Tim. 2:15-19
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The word translated "canker" is gaggraina i.e., gangrene.
Doug
Gary, owner of tentmaker believes in fulfilled view. Is he a gangerenous heretic also? Or is it only the "hyper" pretersists.
Your post here Doug, imo; is divisional, labelling, and promotes self belief.
I have reported this to moderators; and will watch accordingly.
Hi Zeek :icon_flower:
Your point Is Noted . :thumbsup:
But the other side of the Coin - Doug does relay scripture to emphasize a Point, be it a Very Bold One
Please continue to share and express your veiws in the manner which is supported By TM.
Ty for your cooperation Guys. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 04, 2009, 06:38:15 PM
Hi Zeek :icon_flower:
Your point Is Noted . :thumbsup:
But the other side of the Coin - Doug does relay scripture to emphasize a Point, be it a Very Bold One
Please continue to share and express your veiws in the manner which is supported By TM.
Ty for your cooperation Guys. :icon_flower:
allrighty. Cult, hmmm.
later
Zeek :icon_flower:
Plz Check ya Pms Bud :icon_flower:
[Thanks very much Zeek for trying to keep this on the up and up.]
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
This is certainly not the only scripture used in the accusation of heresy that the fulfillment advocate must face.
What about this one:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
And many many more.
So any type of Consistent-Preterism is going to be called heresy by those who feel threatened by it and by those who see it as a threat to their understanding of the Gospel.
My advice then: If you are one that is afraid of what other Christians think of you and say about you then don't be open minded about this subject. Don't even bother looking into it.
The evidence is far more than abundant and much more than convincing. It harmonizes massive amounts of scripture that cannot otherwise be harmonized.
The nearness and expectation of the "judgment" and the "resurrection" is relentless.
That's why Hymenaeus and Philetus were quite convincing. And is it clear that the one's they were convincing did not believe from Paul that they were supposed to get their own personal spiritual body.
Otherwise Paul would certainly have said something in defence of such a substantial difference in expectation.
Imagine you were Paul and you wished to defend the then true fact that the resurrection had not yet taken place.
1) Would you not have addresses the issue of a change of definition of resurrection?
2) Would you not have brought attention to the issue that no one around them had a new body yet?
1) If resurrection was out of sin-death as I believe that it was in the end of the law of sin and death, in the end of the ministry of sin and death then Paul did defend that very point throughout 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. He did this by addressing the overall teaching of these Judaizers. Hymenaeus and Philetus were (probably converted) Judizers.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching the law for salvation. They as the Jews then were teaching that the temple would not be destroyed and that Law obedience was necessary for the Gentiles.
Teaching that the resurrection had then already happened would reinforce the principle of their teaching that God was not going to do away with the old covenant. They were thus overthrowing the faith of some by converting Gentiles to law obedience.
2) Did Paul ask or state the blatantly obvious?
Did everyone stop dying?
Do you have your new eternal body yet?
Did the graves open up?
Try looking out your window and see if there is a whole new world.
Did you get raptured?
Did the stars fall from the sky?
It's very clear that we today in most traditional or common beliefs concerning end times and resurrection have very different expectations from what Paul taught. For Paul mentions nothing of the sort in his letters to Timothy. No such advice at all on how to quench this false teaching. Only that these false teachers taught the law and that the timing on the resurrection was too early.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. {Judaizers taught that only the circumcised and law obedient are saved}
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; {not Moses}
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, {A misunderstanding of the application that in the resurrection there is no marriage} [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Hymenaeus was a Judaizer teaching the law, telling everyone that the resurrection had already taken place while the temple still stood.
There is much more here but out of time for now.
They were expecting the "end" in their time. Were they wrong?
Many Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
What about this one:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Yes, that certainly destroys the doctrines of Max King about the resurrection having already happened!
IMOQuote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
And many many more.
So any type of Consistent-Preterism is going to be called heresy by those who feel threatened by it and by those who see it as a threat to their understanding of the Gospel.
God's word is a threat to the hyper preterists.
IMOQuote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
My advice then: If you are one that is afraid of what other Christians think of you and say about you then don't be open minded about this subject. Don't even bother looking into it.
The evidence is far more than abundant and much more than convincing. It harmonizes massive amounts of scripture that cannot otherwise be harmonized.
The nearness and expectation of the "judgment" and the "resurrection" is relentless.
Yes, Peter said:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?He didn't say it begins in 70 AD at Jerusalem, but the "house of God" which is the church.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
That's why Hymenaeus and Philetus were quite convincing. And is it clear that the one's they were convincing did not believe from Paul that they were supposed to get their own personal spiritual body.
Probably, those who had not received a love for the truth were deceived.
2 Thes. 2:10-11
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, {A misunderstanding of the application that in the resurrection there is no marriage} [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Christians are said to be in a marriage relationship with Christ.
Eph. 5:31-33
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.And commanding to abstain from "meats" seems to imply that these false teachers try to promote a very literal view of scripture.
Meats means "solid food" and abstaining from "meats" would limit one to a liquid diet, or in other words, a diet of "milk." And a diet of
spiritual "milk" forbids the
spiritual nourishment that has been provided for us by God in
prophecy, which is not "milk," but "solid food," that has to be chewed, or interpreted. Preterists and dispensationalists both say that most of the prophecies of scripture do
not apply to us. The preterists say it was all fulfilled in the first century, and the dispensationalists say most prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, in a future 7 year tribulation, after the church has been "raptured" away to heaven. Thus they deny prophecy applies to the church today, and so limit Christians to a diet of spiritual "milk."
Heb. 5:12-14
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
Hymenaeus was a Judaizer teaching the law, telling everyone that the resurrection had already taken place while the temple still stood.
Where is your proof that he was a Judaizer? Is it something you made up? Did Max King make it up? The name "Hymenaeus" does not seem Jewish to me.
Hymenaeus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hymenaeus may refer to one of the following:
* Hymenaios, a deity in Greek mythology
* Hymenaeus (Ephesian), a heretical teacher in EphesusDoug
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
I just wish all people would read J.P.Eby's Part 47 End Times Revelations "Looking for His Appearing" Page 2, on www.kingdombiblestudies.org and learn where the real lies are and who invented the Rapture Lie.
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I dont think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
of course Paul is speaking about Christian Judaizers in verse 14. Chilton's rather shocking claim though is that in verse 15 Paul also is speaking about the Jewish believers in Jesus rather than the Jews who opposed the Gospel message.
I don't think that makes any sense since he writes:
Quotethe Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
Chilton works at Bard College with Jacob Neusner the Jewish apologist and goes out of his way to show that rabbinical Judaism is perfectly compatible with Christianity.
the question is what does Paul intend here:
QuoteThey displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
it seems clear to me this is a reference to unbelieving Jews and a prophecy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. I don't think Chilton et al are correct in saying that Paul here only criticizes the Jewish believers.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 12:45:39 AM
I just wish all people would read J.P.Eby's Part 47 End Times Revelations "Looking for His Appearing" Page 2, on www.kingdombiblestudies.org and learn where the real lies are and who invented the Rapture Lie.
Lee Damboise II
your email address is .ru. are you based in Russia?
no , Caribou Maine
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
Probably. But they were promoting a different heresy. Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander are mentioned in another context, probably one that involved Gnostic ideas, a mixing of paganism (including the ideas of Plato) and Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_%28Ephesian%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_%28Ephesian%29)Alexander (fl. 50–65) was an early Christian, one of two heretical teachers at Ephesus—the other being Hymenaeus—against whom Paul warns Timothy. Hymeneus and Alexander were proponents of antinomianism, the belief that Christian morality was not required. They put away—"thrust from them"—faith and a good conscience; they willfully abandoned the great central facts regarding Christ, and so they "made shipwreck concerning the faith."[1]
Hymenaeus is associated with Philetus, and further details are there given regarding their false teaching.[2] What they taught is described by Paul as "profane babblings," as leading to more ungodliness, and as eating "as doth a gangrene." Their heresy consisted of saying that the resurrection was past already, and the heresy had been so far successful in that it had overthrown the faith of some. The doctrine of these three heretical teachers, Hymeneus, Alexander and Philetus, was accordingly one of the early forms of Gnosticism. It held that matter was originally and essentially evil; that for this reason the body was not an essential part of human nature; that the only resurrection was that of each man as he awoke from the death of sin to a righteous life; that thus in the case of everyone who has repented of sin, "the resurrection was past already," and that the body did not participate in the blessedness of the future life, but that salvation consisted in the soul's complete deliverance from all contact with a material world and a material body.
So pernicious were these teachings of incipient Gnosticism in the Christian church, that they quickly spread, eating like a gangrene. The denial of the future resurrection of the body involved also the denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ, and even the fact of the incarnation. The way in which the apostle dealt with those who taught such deadly error was by resorting to the same extreme measures as he had employed in the case of the immoral person at Corinth: he delivered Hymeneus and Alexander to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme. Compare 1 Cor 5:5.Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 01:01:31 AM
that the body did not participate in the blessedness of the future life, but that salvation consisted in the soul's complete deliverance from all contact with a material world and a material body.
:cloud9: I found this part particularly interesting if it is indeed a part of gnosticism, because basically the only way the soul is delivered from all contact of a material body, IS TO DIE.
How many in the churches see as their hope DYING and "going to heaven"; who knew that was a form of gnosticism. Instead of, Christ in you, the hope of glory and the glory that is getting ready to be revealed in us, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality.Blessings...
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 01:01:31 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
Probably. But they were promoting a different heresy. Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander are mentioned in another context, probably one that involved Gnostic ideas, a mixing of paganism (including the ideas of Plato) and Christianity.
Doug
That is not in the context anywhere.
I hope that you don't think that the Judaizers had no converts at all, or that all their converts had Jewish names. They were not telling Jews that they needed to be circumcised.
These are the only two meantionings of Hymenaeus:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Here is the context:
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give
heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the
law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. The only thing Paul has brought up is those teaching the law. So then the Judaizers.
Who would teach abstaining from meats?
The Judaizers of course:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the
handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Gal 1:14 And profited in the
Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Gal 1:16
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; Paul is saying the same thing about the same problem.
When Paul is speaking against the Judaizers he brings up his own converison as one being a circumzised Jew zelous for the law but then converted and now an apolte to the Geniles.
Compare:
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who
was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. What fables are being taught and who is doing it?
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and
vain talkers and deceivers,
specially they of the circumcision: Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may
be sound in the faith; Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to
Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and]
vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the
faith of some.
Rightly
dividing the word of God.
1Ti 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding
neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
They were Judaziers teaching the law!
Not rightly dividing the word of God.
Blessings to you
Barry
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 05, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I dont think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
Great post!
Yes,
all the chruches were coming under attack by the Judaizers and their converts which became Judaizers. This is the context of every great house and the vessels their in.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
This is how "Judgement began at the house of God" and signaled clearly that "the end of all things was at hand" as per Peter's points.
There is no historical proof of any problems with the Gnostic in the time of the writings of the New Testament. It is all subjective theory and no context to back it up. No history to back it up either. Just hearsay and subjective interpretation.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 05, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I dont think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
:cloud9: Looking at this NIV version here, it reads to me like they were gentiles that got the idea from the Jewish Judaizers. It says "you suffered from YOUR OWN countrymen the same t hings those churches suffered from the Jews". My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:26:41 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 01:01:31 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
Probably. But they were promoting a different heresy. Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander are mentioned in another context, probably one that involved Gnostic ideas, a mixing of paganism (including the ideas of Plato) and Christianity.
Doug
That is not in the context anywhere.
I hope that you don't think that the Judaizers had no converts at all, or that all their converts had Jewish names. They were not telling Jews that they needed to be circumcised.
The apostles preached the gospel to Jews, and to Gentiles, so believers in the churches represented a great variety of different backgrounds; hellenized Jews, traditional Jews, Jewish proselytes, Gentiles, Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, priests, Levites, etc. Of the Jews and proselytes who became Christians, some attempted to promote "Judaism" or legalism in the churches. They were indeed prominent troublemakers, but not the only kind in the early church.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:26:41 AM
These are the only two meantionings of Hymenaeus:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Here is the context:
Hymenaeus was the name of pagan Greek god, the god of weddings. What devout Jew would give their child such a name, and have him circumcised also? More likely, he was of Gentile background.
The context in 1 Tim 1:7 is about teachers of the law, which probably refers to Jewish believers who wanted to instruct Gentile believers about how to live like the Jews.
Then when Hymenaeus and Alexander are mentioned, 13 verses later, they could not be among the teachers of the law referred to in verse 7, because they had been "delivered unto Satan" by Paul, or expelled.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:26:41 AM
The only thing Paul has brought up is those teaching the law.
No, there were some who wished to be teachers of the law on the one hand, and those who had blasphemed (by defiling their conscience) and so were "delivered unto Satan" on the other.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:26:41 AM
They were Judaziers teaching the law!
Some were Judaziers, but there were others in the church who had previously been idolaters, and who had lived as pagans.
1 Cor. 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 05, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I dont think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
Great post!
Yes, all the chruches were coming under attack by the Judaizers and their converts which became Judaizers.
Jews in the diaspora were actively seeking proselytes of the Gentiles. The Pharisees did this, as Jesus mentioned.
Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.There were synagogues in every city where they met on the sabbath days. [Acts 15:21]
When the gospel was preached by Paul, he went to those synagogues, and also preached directly to the pagan Gentiles, and among the latter, many believed. This irritated Jews who did not believe, as they were jealous of the success of the Apostles. And so they did all they could to suppress the preaching of the gospel. These are probably the ones referred to in 1 Thes. 2:14-16, upon whom the "wrath of God" fell.
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
This is the context of every great house and the vessels their in.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
This is how "Judgement began at the house of God" and signaled clearly that "the end of all things was at hand" as per Peter's points.
The apostles taught that they were living in the last age, and we are still in that time.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Jude 1:17-18
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. The entire age since the time of the apostles is represented by the "time, times and a half" of Dan. 7:25, during which the saints are dominated by antichrist. Those who are spiritually Gentiles trample the holy city, which is the church. [Luke 21:24] They occupy the "outer court" of the temple, which also represents the church. The 42 months of Rev. 11:2 is the same "time, times and a half" as Dan. 7:25.
In Dan. 12:7, the phrase "a time, times and a half" is used to identify the very last age of prophecy, in which all the events included in Daniel's prophecies are fulfilled. It has not ended, we are still in that age in which Christ confirms his covenant with believers. It is the last half of the 70th week, that began when Jesus began his ministry, and it includes both the period of his ministry and the entire period since.
Jesus said all would be fulfilled in his generation, and since he rose from the dead, his generation still exists. It has not passed away! It cuts off the legs of hyper-preterism. :laughing7:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
There is no historical proof of any problems with the Gnostic in the time of the writings of the New Testament. It is all subjective theory and no context to back it up. No history to back it up either. Just hearsay and subjective interpretation.
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HYMENAEUS/ (http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HYMENAEUS/)
HYMENAEUS
hi-men-e'-us (Humenaios, so named from Hymen, the god of marriage, 1 Tim 1:20; 2 Tim 2:17): A heretical teacher in Ephesus, an opponent of the apostle Paul, who in the former reference associates him with Alexander (see ALEXANDER), and in the latter, with Philetus (see PHILETUS).
1. His Career:
It is worthy of notice that in both passages where these persons are mentioned, the name of Hymeneus occurs first, showing, perhaps, that he was the leader. In the passage in 1 Tim Hymeneus is included in the "some" who had put away faith and a good conscience and who had made shipwreck concerning faith. The apostle adds that he had delivered Hymeneus and Alexander unto Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.
2. His Denial of the Resurrection:
In the passage in 2 Tim, Hymeneus and Philetus are included among persons whose profane and vain babblings will increase unto more ungodliness, and whose word "will eat as doth a gangrene." The apostle declares that Hymeneus and Philetus rection are of the number of such people as those just described, and he adds that those two persons "concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some." Then, for the guidance of Timothy, he goes on to say the seal upon the foundation of God is, "The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." The inference intended is, that though Hymeneus and Philetus had named the name of Christ, they did not depart from iniquity. There is no doubt in regard to the identity of this Hymeneus with the person of the same name in 1 Tim. Accordingly, the facts mentioned in the two epistles must be placed together, namely, that though he had made a Christian profession by naming the name of Christ, yet he had not departed from iniquity, but by his profane teaching he proceeded unto more ungodliness, and that he had put away faith and a good conscience and had made shipwreck of faith.
The error, therefore, of Hymeneus and his two companions would amount to this: They taught that "the resurrection is past already," that there shall be no bodily resurrection at all, but that all that resurrection means is that the soul awakes from sin. This awakening from sin had already taken place with themselves, so they held, and therefore there could be no day in the future when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and shall come forth from the grave (Jn 5:28).
3. Incipient Gnosticism:
This teaching of Hymeneus had been so far successful: it had "overthrown the faith of some" (2 Tim 2:18). It is impossible to define exactly the full nature of this heresy, but what Paul says regarding it makes evident that it was a form of incipient Gnosticism. This spiritualizing of the resurrection sprang from the idea of the necessarily evil nature of all material substance. This idea immediately led to the conclusion of the essentially evil nature of the human body, and that if man is to rise to his true nature, he must rid himself of the thralldom, not of sin, but of the body. This contempt for the body led to the denial of the resurrection in its literal sense; and all that Christ had taught on the subject was explained only, in an allegorical sense, of the resurrection of the soul from sin.
4. Overthrows Faith:
Teaching of this kind is described by Paul as having effects similar to the "eating" caused by a gangrene. It is deadly; it overthrows Christian faith. If not destroyed, it would corrupt the community, for if there is no literal resurrection of the dead, then, as Paul shows in 1 Cor 15, Christ is not raised; and if the literal resurrection of Christ is denied, Christian believers are yet in their sins, and the Christian religion is false.
5. Delivered unto Satan:
The way in which the apostle dealt with these teachers, Hymeneus and his companions, was not merely in the renewed assertion of the truth which they denied, but also by passing sentence upon these teachers--"whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme." In regard to the meaning of this sentence much difficulty of interpretation exists. Some understand it to mean simple excommunication from the church. But this seems quite inadequate to exhaust the meaning of the words employed by Paul. Others take it to signify the infliction of some bodily suffering or disease. This also is quite insufficient as an explanation. It seems that a person who was delivered unto Satan was cut off from all Christian privileges, he was "put away" from the body of Christian believers, and handed over to "the Satan," the Evil One in his most distinct personality (1 Cor 5:2,5,13). Compare the cases of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), and of Elymas (Acts 13:11).
It is important that the purpose of this terrible sentence should not be overlooked. The intention of the punishment was distinctly remedial. Both in the case of Hymenacus and Alexander, and in that of the person dealt with in 1 Cor 5, the intention was the attaining of an ultimate good. In 1 Cor it is "for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Similarly, Hymeneus and Alexander are delivered unto Satan, not for their final perdition, but that they may be taught, through this terrible discipline--for such is the signification of the word which is translated "taught"--not to blaspheme. The purpose of this discipline, that they might learn not to blaspheme, shows the dreadful length of impiety and of railing at Christian truth to which Hymeneus had gone.
6. The "Perverse Things" at Ephesus:
In the history of Hymeneus and his companions, and in their bold and anti-Christian teaching which had overthrown the faith of some, we cannot fail to see the fulfillment of what Paul had said many years previously, in his farewell address to the elders of the church in Ephesus: "I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them" (Acts 20:29 f). It was in the Ephesian church that Hymeneus and Alexander and Philetus had arisen. The gangrene-like nature of their teaching has already been described.
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/P/PHILETUS/
PHILETUS
fi-le'-tus (Philetos (2 Tim 2:17)):
1. The Nature of His Error:
This person is mentioned by Paul, who warns Timothy against him as well as against his associate in error, Hymeneus. The apostle speaks of Hymeneus and Philetus as instances of men who were doing most serious injury to the church by their teaching, and by what that teaching resulted in, both in faith and morals. The specific error of these men was that they denied that there would be any bodily resurrection. They treated all Scriptural references to such a state, as figurative or metaphorical. They spiritualized it absolutely, and held that the resurrection was a thing of the past. No resurrection was possible, so they taught, except from ignorance to knowledge, from sin to righteousness. There would be no day when the dead would hear the voice of Christ and come forth out of the grave. The Christian, knowing that Christ was raised from the dead, looked forward to the day when his body should be raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection. But this faith was utterly denied by the teaching of Hymeneus and Philetus.
2. How It Overthrew Faith:
This teaching of theirs, Paul tells us, had overthrown the faith of some. It would also overthrow Christian faith altogether, for if the dead are not raised, neither is Christ risen from the dead, and "ye are yet in your sins" (1 Cor 15:17).
The denial of the resurrection of the body, whether of mankind generally or of Christ, is the overthrow of the faith. It leaves nothing to cling to, no living Christ, who saves and leads and comforts His people. The apostle proceeds to say that teaching of this kind "eats as doth a gangrene," and that it increases unto more ungodliness. As a canker or gangrene eats away the flesh, so does such teaching eat away Christian faith. Paul is careful to say, more than once, that the teaching which denies that there will be a resurrection of the dead leads inevitably to "ungodliness" and to "iniquity."Doug
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...
Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven
Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 03:28:43 PM
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...
Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven
Lee
the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many ''gods'' and many divisions
Jesus said ONE GOD AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing than all those other things will cease ...
if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ
And Jesus answered him,
The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mar 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. Mar 12:31
And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master,
thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself,
is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Mar 12:34 And when
Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him,
Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
100 % agree (inpart)
Lee
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2009, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 03:28:43 PM
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...
Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven
Lee
the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods" and many divisions
Jesus said ONE GOD AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing than all those other things will cease ...
if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.
Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]
Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]
David called God's law "the truth."
Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.He said it was his delight.
Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us.
1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]
Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.
Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
1) If resurrection was out of sin-death as I believe that it was in the end of the law of sin and death, in the end of the ministry of sin and death then Paul did defend that very point throughout 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. He did this by addressing the overall teaching of these Judaizers. Hymenaeus and Philetus were (probably converted) Judizers.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching the law for salvation.
There is no evidence of this in scripture. But that claim appears to be an
obsession of the hyper-preterists. They so desperately want to make all prophecy apply to the Jews in 70 AD, they cannot be
objective or
balanced in their treatment of scripture.
IMOThe Imperial Bible-dictionary
By Patrick Fairbairn
HYMENÊ'US, or more correctly HYMENAEUS, a heretical teacher in the church of Ephesus. He is mentioned by the apostle first, more generally, as, along with Alexander, losing a good conscience, and in consequence making shipwreck of faith, 1 Ti. i. 20; and again more particularly, as, along with Philetus, giving vent to profane and vain babblings, and erring in respect to the faith, by saying that the resurrection is past already, 2 Ti. ii. 16-18. There is no reason to doubt that it is the same person who is referred to in both these passages under the name of Hymenaeus. And though the description is very brief respecting his errors, yet the probability is, that he belonged to the class who in the early church gave way to the Gnostic tendency, as to the inherent evil of matter, and held that the only resurrection which should be looked for was the change that passed over the spiritual part of our natures. A tendency in this direction prevailed very extensively in the first ages of the gospel, and gave rise to many of the corruptions which followed; and it became the apostle to denounce it with earnestness from the first. In the former of the two passages referred to above, the apostle speaks of having delivered the parties over to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme; that is, he had solemnly cast them out of the visible church, the proper sphere of the Spirit's agency, and sent them back to the world, the proper sphere of Satan's, with the design possibly of suffering special inflictions of evil from this adverse power. (See Satan.) But it was still if rightly viewed, for good--for correction and reproof in righteousness, not for final rejection. But whether it proved in reality so or not, we are not informed.Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 04, 2009, 11:10:55 PM
They as the Jews then were teaching that the temple would not be destroyed and that Law obedience was necessary for the Gentiles.
What would make them think the temple was about to be destroyed? Hmm... another example of "vain babblings" of the hyper preterists...
IMO2 Tim. 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.Doug
The Judizers:
The Judaizers wished to bring the Gentile Christians under Israel's "natural things". They were however supposed to be partakers of Israel's spiritual things (Act 21:25, Rom 15:27).
Some of these Judaizers presented themselves as (alleged) apostles (2 Cor. 11:13).
They claimed biblical authority:
Col 2:18 RSV Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind
The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
Hbr 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
Hbr 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul. They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
They used pressure tactics and were persecutors (Gal. 2:12-13) and did this themselves to not be persecuted:
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
To ignore that this is the problem in Ephesus when Paul wrote to Timothy is to ignore a lot of clearly visible information. We'll get to that shortly.
The natural things of Israel that the Judaizers taught the Gentiles is circumcision, new moon, Sabbath day, their food and drink practices and so on.
Because they were alleged "Christians" they also taught some other points.
At some point they began to teach that the day of Christ had already come or already arrived.
Young's literal:
2Th 2:1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
See what Paul is getting at here:
1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
1Th 2:10 Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
He is making a comparison with the Judaizers who are doing this:
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
The heart of the Judaizer is betraying them and Paul is making a point of it.
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
These are the converts of the Judaizers in Thessalonica. If Paul was to name them they would have Greek names.
The ones he is mentioning of their own countrymen will very much be affected by the wrath about to be.
Now of course the Judaizers are not the only problem that the church was facing. There is a Gentile separatist movement as well (Rom 11:18) and other issues as well. However time will not permit. The Judaziers are however the predominate problem. They are the messengers of Satan, the contrasting problem of law verses grace the natural and the spiritual in "covenantal" warfare in the transition of the covenantal ages.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But contextually speaking there are ones among them that are clearly and distinctly saying "peace and safety".
They are saying it by saying that the day of Christ had already come.
In saying that the day of Christ had come already and the that resurrection had already come they are claiming that the day of wrath that Paul announced is not coming. That Jerusalem will not be destroyed that the temple will continue to stand that sacrifice will continue that the law is eternal in natural things.
They thus shipwreck the faith of some.
Another point that they are teaching as a consequence of this position they have taken is that they forbid marriage.
They have misunderstood the teaching of Jesus in regards to their being no marriage of giving in marriage in the resurrection. [We can cover the misunderstanding in another post perhaps]
What kind of problems is this causing in Ephesus at this time?
The women are being targeted with this preaching just like Eve was targeted by the serpent.
Now read this:
1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,
1Ti 2:12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,
1Ti 2:13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve,
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,
1Ti 2:15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.
To exercise rule over the man how?
To teach what?
The teaching of the Judaizers!! Paul never changes the subject from the beginning of 1 Timothy 1:1-2:15.
The Judaizers are destroying family life by their teachings.
Are the Judaizers the only reason why family could have some problems in the NT scriptures? Of course not.
But it's a problem here and Paul is addressing the problem and giving instructions to deal with the problem.
1 Timothy 2:11 is not an eternal comprehensive teaching about women and men. It is Paul dealing with a specific problem and how Paul sees the Judaizers as the messengers of Satan targeting the women with their teachings.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
{They cannot rightly divide the word of God. They teach the law but not lawfully}
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
{They are not silly because they are women, they are silly because as one's targeted they then believe the silliness of the teaching of the Judaizers}
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.
It's not a "woman" problem, but neither is Paul shy to deal with it from any and all angles that it is coming from and presenting itself.
HOW was "their folly" about to be "manifest unto all [men]"??
Jerusalem was about to be destroyed and they were about to be "taught not to blaspheme".
Even some of the qualifications of the elders or bishops and deacons was built around disqualifying the Judaizers from such positions in the Churches.
"not greedy of filthy lucre"
"not covetous"
"the husband of one wife"
If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.
There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.
Blessings and love,
Barry
Quote from: Cardinal on December 05, 2009, 02:25:36 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 01:01:31 AM
that the body did not participate in the blessedness of the future life, but that salvation consisted in the soul's complete deliverance from all contact with a material world and a material body.
:cloud9: I found this part particularly interesting if it is indeed a part of gnosticism, because basically the only way the soul is delivered from all contact of a material body, IS TO DIE.
How many in the churches see as their hope DYING and "going to heaven"; who knew that was a form of gnosticism. Instead of, Christ in you, the hope of glory and the glory that is getting ready to be revealed in us, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality.Blessings...
The NT seems to emphasize that our bodies are to be changed in the resurrection, and the dead are to be raised from their graves. This is directly opposed to gnosticism which assumes humans already have an "immortal soul" as proposed by Plato.
A comment from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism)
Christianity and Gnosticism
The ascetic notion of immediate revelation through divine knowledge sought to find an absolute transcendence in a Supreme Deity. This concept is very important in identifying what evidence there is pertaining to Gnosticism[56] in the NT, which would influence orthodox teaching.[57] Main Gnostic beliefs that differ from Biblical teachings include: the creator as a lower being ['Demiurge'] and not a Supreme Deity; scripture having a deep, hidden meaning whose true message could only be understood through "secret wisdom";[58] and Jesus as a spirit that "seemed"[59] to be human, leading to a belief in the incarnation.[60] The traditional "formula which enshrines the Incarnation...is that in some sense God, without ceasing to be God, was made man...which is a prima facie ['at first sight' a] contradiction in theological terms...the [NT] nowhere reflects on the virgin birth of Jesus as witnessing to the conjunction of deity and manhood in His person...the deity of Jesus was not...clearly stated in words and [the book of] Acts gives no hint that it was".[61] This philosophy[62] was known by the so-called "Church Fathers" such as Origen, Irenaeus, and Tertullian.[63]
At its core, Gnosticism formed a speculative interest in the relationship of the oneness of God to the 'triplicity' of his manifestations. It seems to have taken Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance and hypostases ["being"][64] as a departure point for interpreting the relationship of the "Father" to the "Son"[65] in its attempt to define a new theology.[66] This would point to the infamous theological controversies by Arius[67] against followers of the Greek Alexandrian school,[68] headed by Athanasius.[69]When John reported that blood and water flowed from the body of Jesus at his crucifixion, John 19:34, his comment confirming this in v. 35 is thought by some scholars to have been intended to counter then prevalent Gnostic teachings that Jesus was not really human, but a spirit or deity who only "appeared" as a human.
From THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm)
When Gnosticism came in touch with Christianity, which must have happened almost immediately on its appearance, Gnosticism threw herself with strange rapidity into Christian forms of thought, borrowed its nomenclature, acknowledged Jesus as Saviour of the world, simulated its sacraments, pretended to be an esoteric revelation of Christ and His Apostles, flooded the world with apocryphal Gospels, and Acts, and Apocalypses, to substantiate its claim. As Christianity grew within and without the Roman Empire, Gnosticism spread as a fungus at its root, and claimed to be the only true form of Christianity, unfit, indeed, for the vulgar crowd, but set apart for the gifted and the elect. So rank was its poisonous growth that there seemed danger of its stifling Christianity altogether, and the earliest Fathers devoted their energies to uprooting it. Though in reality the spirit of Gnosticism is utterly alien to that of Christianity, it then seemed to the unwary merely a modification or refinement thereof. When domiciled on Greek soil, Gnosticism, slightly changing its barbarous and Seminitic terminology and giving its "emanatons" and "syzygies" Greek names, sounded somewhat like neo-Platonism, thought it was strongly repudiated by Plotinus. In Egypt the national worship left its mark more on Gnostic practice than on its theories. Doug
Hey Doug,
Paul never compares his then present dieing with Christ, being then buried with Christ and his then being raised up with Christ on a physical flesh level.
The body of Christ raised was flesh and bone and Luke makes not bones about it LOL ROFL! Sorry, bad one :)
Here is an example:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
There imo seems to be a real reluctance by some to see that this is a spiritual but quite literal dieing and resurrection.
And then we have to ask how it is possible that Paul in defending against the Judaizers who taught that the day of Christ had already come and that the resurrection had already come could have done so without Paul defending vigorously and clearly a physical mode of manifestation which you Doug seem to be suggesting.
"Did you get your replacement body yet?" Would have been an easy enough question to point out the stupidity of the Judaziers teaching.
Unless of course both Paul and the Judaziers taught a none physical resurrection. Then that would explain it.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul. They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.
There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.
Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation.
IMOWhy don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?
Doug
:cloud9: Doug........Then I guess I'm a "gnostic", because I KNOW the soul survives death, but not in a glorified or resurrected state. All religion has a fragment of the truth, however twisted, which is why Adam was told he could eat of ALL THE TREES in the garden, EXCEPT the one; I guess that is their fragment. Don't feel like explaining that today, but there are a couple of points on the other I would like to add to.
The two things that were a red flag (as in, made sense) to me were the description of what they had distorted eating as a canker or gangrene, and the fact those that were delivered to Satan, "to learn not to blaspheme".
I had revelation given to me in an experience with ministering to someone. This person (I'll call them "A") had disobeyed a word from the Lord that they were to cut themselves off from familiar contact with another, citing "have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness". Christ is the fruit of our womb/heart.
The unfruitful work of darkness was someone that refused to repent of their traditions of men, among them, to accept that the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the HG were for today. By "A" cutting themselves off in obedience to the Lord from this person, it was making the person deal with their traditions of men and look deeper into the Word, in short, it was being used to bring repentance, and it was working.
Soon, however, "A" was manipulated by guilt and the appearance realm of what looked "good" in her dealings with the person, and carnally reasoned that she was "being mean" and "not loving" to the person by not having fellowship with this person and being at their beck and call 24/7, so "A" disobeyed the Lord before His work in the other person brought the fruit of obedience and the LIVING GOD relationship to them.
The Lord was not pleased and the Word delivered was a hard one, saying that "A's" disobedience was not love at all, but HATE, because had she truly loved as He loves , she would have allowed herself to bear the "shame" of APPEARING "mean and not loving" for a season, if it meant that the person would repent of their traditions to serve the LIVING GOD. His Spirit IS love, therefore WHATEVER He tells you to do, IS LOVE, regardless of how it looks in the appearance realm of carnally minded men.
In short, "A" refused to pick up her cross and follow Him and threw this "cross" down and resumed the former close relationship with the person. The person, having gotten what they wanted, no longer sought the truth of the matter and resumed their traditions of men, only to die in that state.
So "A" was told that repentance needed to come from her, because hate and murder being as the same sin, she had effectively "murdered" that person in the spirit. And since she chose to remain under the law by disobeying the Spirit, then the law demanded the judgment of death to murderers, so it was vital that she repented to bring restoration back to her relationship with the living God. Hate of another, is in essence, the hate of the body (body here used as a corporate expression), that also plays out in the natural body, as the natural body turning on itself. Both cancer and gangrene are the body turning on itself, in a sense, to destroy itself.
We either walk in the Spirit or we walk in the flesh, and the flesh is still subject to the law as long as IT lives. When He said my words would never pass away, He was speaking what He heard the FATHER speak, and the FATHER spoke the law that governs the flesh, not just the words in red we like to think is all He said.
So try as much as some like to, in their efforts to do away with the law having any application to us today, it does not work, because the law "runs" side by side with the Spirit until ALL be accomplished. If you think not, take a look at the curses on those that walked in the flesh in Deut. 28 and see if any of them look familiar to your life's circumstances or that of your generations.
As many as walk in the SPIRIT, those are the sons of God. Not walking in the Spirit, as Peter illustrated, brings us back down into the waters below the firmament, and all BELOW the firmament are subject to the law that governs the flesh, EXCEPT they walk in the Spirit. The reason being, walking in the Spirit is walking above the waters below the firmament, and the firmament the Word says, IS HEAVEN.
And the second point here, was to learn not blaspheme the Holy Ghost. The reason it will not be forgiven HERE is if there is no repentance before death; the reason it will not be forgiven in the next age, is because it was not forgiven here due to no repentance, and therefore in the next age, there is no physical body to be baptized in the Spirit, so they missed that opportunity to have their "robe" (the soul is the "robe" of His Spirit which is within; the baptism in the HG cleans the robe) cleansed of all spot and wrinkle. It does NOT mean, they are unforgiven eternally. Blessings...
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul. They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.
There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.
Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation. IMO
Why don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?
Doug
The reason why I don't address much of the info that you are putting forward Doug is simply because much of it comes in the format of a "straw man" characteristic. Paint a picture of what I'm saying which is not entirely correct and then tare down that picture in the hope of discrediting.
Many of the allegations of those whom you copy and paste are false and I do not believe them. I don't have time to refute every false allegation and or over generalized statements of everyone you copy and paste here.
Quote:
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
End quote.
Fine, but what does that have to do with anything at all? At least that is what I'm thinking. Why answer this is also what I'm thinking?
The point remains, the Judizers spoke as ones of biblical authority. And that fact remains. They spoke as the apostles did using the scriptures to make their case that the law was salvation.
Take for example your earlier statement on the Church being married with Christ. I'm thinking "of course, never said the contrary". What does that have to do with what the Judaizers were teaching in "forbidding marriage"? Imo nothing because that is not the topic. The Judaizers were teaching that marriage as husband and wife had ended. And we see it in Paul's response to the problems among the women in Ephesus as per Paul's writing to Timothy about women's conduct.
Another early post of yours dealt with the resurrection and spoke about the church was a building of people. Of course, but I sill don't see the connection to the problem of Resurrection as you first indicated from your position on 1 Cor. 5:1-5. Unless I can see the connection whether that be my own mistake or your mistake I don't have the time to answer what I see in off topic.
So then try and connect the dots for me and I'll try ok?
Also sometimes your approach is imo quite offensive. I've seen at least 2 other people tell you this. So why respond to that kind of stuff. I mean even when I nicely brought it to your attention you threw it back worse in my face. Then you got moderated.
You are anxious to discredit me and my views. I can live with that, no problem. But doesn't mean I won't ignore what I see is offensive. That's my prerogative.
I was under the opinion that my quite long post did indeed make a very good case of what I've been saying about the Judaizers in the end times setting of the fist century. The very things that you have clanged.
If you wish to exchange thoughts with me then do so. And I'll do my best.
Love and blessings
Barry
Quote from: Cardinal on December 05, 2009, 07:46:34 PM
:cloud9: Doug........Then I guess I'm a "gnostic", because I KNOW the soul survives death, but not in a glorified or resurrected state. All religion has a fragment of the truth, however twisted, which is why Adam was told he could eat of ALL THE TREES in the garden, EXCEPT the one; I guess that is their fragment. Don't feel like explaining that today, but there are a couple of points on the other I would like to add to.
Blessings...
Hey Cardinal.
Does the soul need to survive death when the spirit of a man returns to God?
Maybe it does maybe not. But is that the subject at hand?
Is that the meaning of resurrection?
Does that harmonize the scriptures?
Does that disprove a first century end of all things?
How badly do we have to have that soul? :)
Maybe that is the question?
It's the question I have often asked of God.
The answer I got is "your mine"
Good enough for me.
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: Whom God hath joined together (soul and spirit) let no man put asunder. Yet man keeps doing it by refusing to believe the promises. But fear not, for David said, the Lord will not suffer my SOUL to stay in "hell" (separation from God).
The spirit returns to the One that sent it. The soul stays trapped in whatever was not overcome while it still operated thru a physical body, UNTIL the resurrection, which in essence is the soul coming into union with the spirit, IN HIM. Wherever two or more are gathered in my name/nature, there I am in the midst of you.
Salvation is not a one time thing does all; it is a process, as we are saved (spirit/outer court), we are being saved (soul/inner court), and we shall be saved (body/Holy of Holies).
Now if this is still going on, and it is obvious that it is, you tell me; does this negate a first century fulfillment of ALL things? The way was made for all to be fulfilled IN SEASON, the firstfruits of that generation received what was allowed during that time, but as the body can only follow the head, then the body has been following the head all this time, ie. every man in his own season. Blessings....
Yeah, if there must be labels, I'm probably a partial preterist. I do believe many things were fulfilled in 70 A.D., many things Jesus talked about to the Sad's and Phar's. However, I also believe there are MANY, MANY things to still be fulfilled, and in fact, are occurring every day. IMO, there's still a resurrection to look forward to, living even more in His presence than we are now, etc. That's how I understand it, anyway. Paul sure seemed to be looking forward a lot :bigGrin:.
:cloud9: I agree, Jab..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
The worship of Angles is covered in Hebrews chapters 1-2.
...
The worship of Angels was putting the old covenant in front of the work of Christ on the cross. This was the teaching of the Judaizers. They used the old testament scriptures, thus falsely "dividing the word of God", and they twisted the teachings of Paul. They were Paul's thorn in the flesh. (See one of my previous posts)
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 06:26:23 PM
If anyone is interesting in anything written here other than to just trying to find any way at all to discredit, let me know ok?
Not that I mind, it's just that there is no sense in boar people for nothing.
There is a ton of more info like this on "end times". But no sense in presenting it if no one is really interested. And a lot more on the Judaizers too. Also the Gentile separatist movement as well.
Since the OP was interested in what prophecy says about the end times, and how prophecy applies today, it does seem you have nothing to offer, since you believe Max King's doctrine that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Your posts and lengthy quotes appear to be a kind of "flood" of misinformation. IMO
Why don't you address the issues I raised? You keep moving on to something different. You avoid addressing the objections I presented. My guess is you can't. For example, you said you might post an explanation for why the Mount of Olives was not divided in 70 AD, and half of it move to the north, and half of it to the south, forming a great valley between, where the Jews could flee, as Zechariah's prophecy said, and why Jesus did not fight against the enemies of the Jews who were camped around Jerusalem in 70 AD. And why the horses and camels and asses and mules of the Roman armies were not struck with a plague, etc. But so far, you have reneged. I doubt very much that you have an interpretation. If so, why not present it?
Doug
The reason why I don't address much of the info that you are putting forward Doug is simply because much of it comes in the format of a "straw man" characteristic. Paint a picture of what I'm saying which is not entirely correct and then tare down that picture in the hope of discrediting.
Not true at all. I have used the quote feature provided by the forum, so your words are accurately reproduced. I do no "painting pictures" of what you say. Hmm... Maybe you just don't like your own words? :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
Many of the allegations of those whom you copy and paste are false and I do not believe them. I don't have time to refute every false allegation and or over generalized statements of everyone you copy and paste here.
These are by learned scholars, who seem much more balanced, and scholarly in their approach than you.
IMOQuote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
Quote:
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Peter quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. James quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. Paul quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures were all the early church had! But they also had the Spirit of Christ which taught them how to interpret the OT.
End quote.
Fine, but what does that have to do with anything at all? At least that is what I'm thinking. Why answer this is also what I'm thinking?
The point remains, the Judizers spoke as ones of biblical authority. And that fact remains. They spoke as the apostles did using the scriptures to make their case that the law was salvation.
Except that they did not have the same spirit as the apostles, which was the spirit of Christ. They had a spirit of Judaism, and viewed the OT as if Christ had not come, and fulfilled the role of the Messiah.
Hyper preterism is similar,
IMO as their take of the words of Jesus, "this generation shall not pass, till all is fulfilled," disregards the fact that Jesus remains alive, having been raised from the dead, so his generation remains to this day. If they had taken this into account, they probably would never have become deceived by Mr. King.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
Take for example your earlier statement on the Church being married with Christ. I'm thinking "of course, never said the contrary". What does that have to do with what the Judaizers were teaching in "forbidding marriage"?
Where does it say that those who forbid to marry are Judaizers? That is simply not there! And it is a prophecy for the "latter days." Here again, you "muddy the waters" of the considerable "flood" that you have generated.
As for the interpretation of the prophecy and the reference to "forbidding to marry," I take it to refer not to literal marriage, but to the holy covenant between Christ and the church, which is compared to a marriage in Eph. 5:32. Instead of being committed to Christ, people abandon faith and hope, and become deceived by the seducing spirits, and switch allegiance to some variety dispensationalism, or to preterism, then leave that belief system too, sometimes embracing disbelief. And some abandon their hope in our promise of a resurrection!
There are varieties of dispensationalism, such as classical dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, hyperdispensationalism, ultradispensationalism. It is quite similar to the different varieties of preterism. It seems the most vocal opponents of hyper-preterists are the non-hyper preterists! Christians wandering among these various conflicting opinions is not being "married to Christ," is it?
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
Imo nothing because that is not the topic. The Judaizers were teaching that marriage as husband and wife had ended.
Where's your proof?
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
And we see it in Paul's response to the problems among the women in Ephesus as per Paul's writing to Timothy about women's conduct.
Another early post of yours dealt with the resurrection and spoke about the church was a building of people. Of course, but I sill don't see the connection to the problem of Resurrection as you first indicated from your position on 1 Cor. 5:1-5. Unless I can see the connection whether that be my own mistake or your mistake I don't have the time to answer what I see in off topic.
So then try and connect the dots for me and I'll try ok?
Also sometimes your approach is imo quite offensive. I've seen at least 2 other people tell you this. So why respond to that kind of stuff. I mean even when I nicely brought it to your attention you threw it back worse in my face. Then you got moderated.
Actually it was a link to an article on a preterist site that got moderated! But it seems curious that hyper-preterism is so feeble a theory, that an appeal to the moderators is needed to defend it. :laughing7:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
You are anxious to discredit me and my views. I can live with that, no problem. But doesn't mean I won't ignore what I see is offensive. That's my prerogative.
I was under the opinion that my quite long post did indeed make a very good case of what I've been saying about the Judaizers in the end times setting of the fist century. The very things that you have clanged.
If you wish to exchange thoughts with me then do so. And I'll do my best.
Ok I'll look for your respose to my question about the prophecy of Zech. 14.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2009, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 03:28:43 PM
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...
Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven
Lee
the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods" and many divisions
Jesus said ONE GOD AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing than all those other things will cease ...
if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.
Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]
Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]
David called God's law "the truth."
Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
He said it was his delight.
Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us.
1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]
Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.
Doug
Amen, up down and all around :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on December 05, 2009, 10:49:25 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2009, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2009, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 03:28:43 PM
OTOH, the "Judaizers" were from among those who believed, but who still cling to their traditions, and tried to convince other believers that they should keep the law of Moses too. They are mentioned in Acts 15.
This is the only wrong word in your statement because in today's times I call those mentioned above
Catholics
Baptist
Mormens
pen
etc...
Anyone who has the belief that you have to follow [ dont kill, dont lie, dont steal, etc... as a rule system to get to heaven
Lee
the Thing is Lee
they serve and are serving many "gods" and many divisions
Jesus said ONE GOD AND THIS COMMAND . if you do this one thing than all those other things will cease ...
if you keep the greatest command given of Jesus Christ
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
Keeping the law of Moses cannot earn us eternal life, or make us righteous. The law is a schoolmaster, Paul said. It reveals what sin is. After we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No.
Paul said the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Rom. 8:4]
Paul said "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." [Gal. 2:21] Yet, he also said "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Rom. 7:12] And Paul taught, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;" [Eph. 6:2]
David called God's law "the truth."
Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
He said it was his delight.
Psa. 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
According to Paul, circumcision of the flesh does not profit, but he did not mean there are no commandments that apply to us.
1 Cor. 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Jesus said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]
Also see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; Rev. 14:12.
Doug
Amen, up down and all around :thumbsup:
Hey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?
Did those types and figures ever have a historical end?
Is it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?
Just curious.
Blessing Barry
Seth yes
Berry no
Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 05, 2009, 11:37:42 PM
Seth yes
Berry no
Lee
Lee, there are no law teachers today. There is no law to teach. It past away already.
Baptists or Catholics who teach law or works for salvation are not messengers of Satan. That's ended.
We are not working through these things we are adapting to the present truth and reality as per our historical time frame. A revelation of God's unconditional love is fulfilled. That's why nothing has been written for almost 2000 years now. It's done.
This is imo the inherent problem with most of the above comments and views expressed thus far.
Concerning Christendom as a whole, everyone wants to be a firstfruit and have the same salvation and the same reward and same inheritance just like the first generation of Christians. It's a matter of personal agenda and personal expectations.
But it is also about how we see each other and those that we disagree with.
We will read anything that we have to into the bible to make sure it's true in our minds. And some of us will be as nasty as we can possibly get away with when anyone who puts our agenda in question.
It's not a defense of the truth, but a defense of what one wants to defend about one's own perceived self identity.
Interestingly enough it is this that was destroyed in AD 70 as a mater of types and figures.
It is this that we are slowly adapting too and accepting. Because it is now covenantal truth.
We are not going to get two "end times" out of scripture. One for the old covenant and one for my personal satisfaction or even for later times. Might as well have another crucifixion as well really. As if the history on the matter works for one point but not another.
Nor were all those Christians who lived through to the end of the old covenant then going to have to overcome yet another world to then be judged again at their death for a second crown of life. Can't have it both ways. Can't have fulfillment then and afterword. And that was never prophesied.
We or at least most believe what we want to at least for now. But eventfully as more new believers come to the forefront as the generations continue on, they come with less personally built agendas that have been preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre programmed. This is just part of our ongoing growth now that everything has been made new.
Just some personal thoughts
Barry
Barry, I agree 100% with your post, although you said " there are no law preacher today".
I disagree with this first line, And I challenge you to turn on the Christian channel or go to any Baptist church and see and hear if you don't find them teaching that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO follow all the laws of Moses to get to heaven...
QuoteHey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?
"Valid" is a bit of a vague word. It certainly is effective to it's intention as Doug demonstrated in the post I commented on.
QuoteDid those types and figures ever have a historical end?
This is another vague one for me. The sheep still symbolize Christ, and our old man being slain. That doesn't mean that we must still practice the rituals, but those rituals still symbolize him.
QuoteIs it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?
Are you talking about the physical body? Or the physical world? As to forests and trees and rocks and rivers all physical, if they should stay or not, doesn't matter to me. However, I do have the hope of shedding the flesh and being conformed completely as Christ now is.
You are free not to have that hope and I won't continue to argue on and on about it, that's between you and the Lord, but that is part of the hope that I believe is intrinsic to the Gospel.
Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
Isa 28:4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
Isa 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Isa 28:23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rye in their place?
Isa 28:26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
Isa 28:27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Isa 28:28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
Isa 28:29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 12:32:06 AM
Barry, I agree 100% with your post, although you said " there are no law preacher today".
I disagree with this first line, And I challenge you to turn on the Christian channel or go to any Baptist church and see and hear if you don't find them teaching that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO follow all the laws of Moses to get to heaven...
LOL ROFL!!!
I know where you are coming from Lee!
Consider that one could offer an animal sacrifice today.
Would that change the fact that they are fulfilled and past away?
Consider that one could build a temple for God today made with hands.
Would that change either the fact that just such a temple did have a "valid" historical place but that that very historical place of standing has by it's own predictions ended?
The problem is clearly our perception.
For example, as per Sister Cardinal's response I would say there is no more union of soul and spirit to be had. It's done.
It is our adaptation of the facts that is at work not the outworking of those precedents historically.
We are not going to get out of a first century fulfillment of all things written. Not and be consistent with the Book that we have been given.
Just some thoughts.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Zeek on December 06, 2009, 01:25:06 AM
Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
Isa 28:4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
Isa 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Isa 28:23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rye in their place?
Isa 28:26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
Isa 28:27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Isa 28:28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
Isa 28:29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
Yes Zeek, very good and right on target.
They were judged in their conscience in the catastrophic end of the covenant of death. And death was thrown into the lake of fire.
Blessing to you, blessings.
Barry
I "think" the issue between Car and you Barry is in the Meanings of the words in each others Heart/mind.
lee
Quote from: Seth on December 06, 2009, 12:34:08 AM
QuoteHey Seth,
Is the law of Moses still valid?
"Valid" is a bit of a vague word. It certainly is effective to it's intention as Doug demonstrated in the post I commented on.
QuoteDid those types and figures ever have a historical end?
This is another vague one for me. The sheep still symbolize Christ, and our old man being slain. That doesn't mean that we must still practice the rituals, but those rituals still symbolize him.
QuoteIs it the end of the physical world that you and some others here are waiting for?
Are you talking about the physical body? Or the physical world? As to forests and trees and rocks and rivers all physical, if they should stay or not, doesn't matter to me. However, I do have the hope of shedding the flesh and being conformed completely as Christ now is.
You are free not to have that hope and I won't continue to argue on and on about it, that's between you and the Lord, but that is part of the hope that I believe is intrinsic to the Gospel.
Fair enough Seth and thanks very much exchanging ideas with me.
Some of the questions you asked me you might find in my last few responces.
Always open to chat.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 12:12:31 AM
Lee, there are no law teachers today. There is no law to teach. It past away already.
Baptists or Catholics who teach law or works for salvation are not messengers of Satan. That's ended.
We are not working through these things we are adapting to the present truth and reality as per our historical time frame. A revelation of God's unconditional love is fulfilled. That's why nothing has been written for almost 2000 years now. It's done.
This is imo the inherent problem with most of the above comments and views expressed thus far.
:cloud9: It's not done, it's just been turned into an inward work as well as an outward work, compliant with the pattern of the Ark of the covenant that had 2 "anointings" of gold (representative of His nature). It's a spiritually obtained covenant with the works now being done by the Holy Ghost, according to the pattern of things in the heavenly realm.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvationwith fear and trembling.
Concerning Christendom as a whole, everyone wants to be a firstfruit and have the same salvation and the same reward and same inheritance just like the first generation of Christians. It's a matter of personal agenda and personal expectations.
But it is also about how we see each other and those that we disagree with.
:cloud9:Being a firstfruits is our identity in Christ and our inheritance if we will go with the plan. He is the forerunner of them that go behind the veil. A forerunner means more are to follow.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
We will read anything that we have to into the bible to make sure it's true in our minds. And some of us will be as nasty as we can possibly get away with when anyone who puts our agenda in question.
It's not a defense of the truth, but a defense of what one wants to defend about one's own perceived self identity.
:cloud9: Dead men don't have self identities. Our identity is hid in Christ and we are being conformed into the image of God's Son.
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead , and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Interestingly enough it is this that was destroyed in AD 70 as a matter of types and figures.
It is this that we are slowly adapting too and accepting. Because it is now covenantal truth.
We are not going to get two "end times" out of scripture. One for the old covenant and one for my personal satisfaction or even for later times. Might as well have another crucifixion as well really. As if the history on the matter works for one point but not another.
Nor were all those Christians who lived through to the end of the old covenant then going to have to overcome yet another world to then be judged again at their death for a second crown of life. Can't have it both ways. Can't have fulfillment then and afterword. And that was never prophesied.
:cloud9: No, if it were as you say, then God would be a respecter of persons, if what is written ONLY applied to that generation. The literal served as an example for us, the heirs of (complete) salvation, which is why we were told not to fall as the Israelites did thru an evil heart of unbelief and therefore did not enter into the promised land. Both are still in effect, in spiritual applications. Here is an example of why........
The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deut. and other books that GOD set this up as a part of the OT covenant curses.
So in fact, what the Pharisees were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by GOD for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God AUTHORIZED it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an EVIL spirit in You, Jesus, OPPOSING what we know by the LAW, is GOD'S judgment.
So Jesus answered perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what SATAN had done, by SATAN, then SATAN'S kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by GOD, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments.
But that He was casting them out by GOD, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part = Christ Jesus, because God's kingdom is NOT divided.
And so, the Pharisees asked Him by whose authority do you do these things, when He healed the man on the SABBATH day. Since John's baptism was a type of being baptized into His death (intended to bring repentance) which was a type of the OT covenant that concluded all under the covenant of death; as in, if you never came up out of that water of the letter of the law that killeth the result would be you'd give up the ghost = drown in the waters of judgment.
Which is why Peter was told (he who had the calling to the Jews/those under the letter of the law) to come out of the boat and walk ABOVE the letter of the law waters below the firmament, and walk in the proceeding Word/breath that comes from the Father's mouth.
So what they were asking Him there again was, by whose authority do you do these things, since we know God has done this for judgment? And His answer there was also perfect in it's understanding. He turned the tables on them, and asked a seemingly unrelated (to us) question.....
Mt 21:25 - The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
:cloud9: And so, I say to you.......the baptism of John ie. the symbol of the judgments that GOD ordained for those that continue to walk by the letter/water that are AUTHORIZED BY GOD, and is being fulfilled STILL TO THIS DAY by Satan......whence was it? from heaven, or of men?
The whole NT covenant with it's instructions about resisting the devil and he will flee, ect. are the unfolding of the finished plan of God, which runs SIDE BY SIDE (run the good race) in the framework of TIME, with the first covenant principles that are ONLY abolished with the death of the testator, as the testament is not in effect UNTIL the testator dies.
So the first covenant which was made with our flesh concluding all under judgment, stays in effect as long as there is still flesh that needs to die, right along with the second covenant, till ALL is fulfilled.
Which is why He told John, who didn't want to baptize Him in water, to baptize Him because it is necessary that we fulfill ALL righteousness. And which is why spiritually speaking, we are told not to muzzle an ox (law) with an ass (Spirit), ie walking side by side. He as the covenant that is Spirit, came riding upon an ass, all beast of burden "ox" flesh had died.
Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
:cloud9: The first is not going to disappear, God's Word stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass away of it. Be ye reconciled.
We or at least most believe what we want to at least for now. But eventfully as more new believers come to the forefront as the generations continue on, they come with less personally built agendas that have been preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre programmed. This is just part of our ongoing growth now that everything has been made new.
:cloud9: You know Barry, not all have come into this with "personally built agendas that have preconceived by and through false religious expectations that have been pre-programmed." I had NO religious ideas whatsoever, had never read a word of it until the day I was born again and then locked myself away with Him for 2 years with a bible and a concordance. I didn't have anybody standing over me telling me what to believe and what not to believe. Blessings....
Just some personal thoughts
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 01:26:04 AM
The problem is clearly our perception.
For example, as per Sister Cardinal's response I would say there is no more union of soul and spirit to be had. It's done. /quote]
:cloud9: If so, then why are we not doing the greater works, why is there still sin in the world, and why did Paul talk about the day dawning and getting brighter and brighter, growing in knowledge and understanding, and why did Paul say we were seeing thru a glass darkly?
All was done on the cross, but it must be APPROPRIATED in the pattern and the order the Spirit dictates. Blessings....
The day may come when ALL will see there is no more sin...
Now, and forever.. ever sense JC's Rezz
:cloud9: The wages of sin is death. Death has not been abolished yet, not thrown into the lake of fire yet. What He appropriated for us, must be appropriated BY us.
Additionally, faith is the substance of things HOPED for, not had already. If all is done, then we have nothing to have faith FOR. Blessings....
One of the things that kept the Soviet Union going after it should have had a natural death is assigning the value of things it got from the capitalist societies to its own provisions. Every purchase in a (relatively) free enterprise is a vote for its value. Millions of people judge value and price, buying what seems best for them, keeping prices within a certain relative scale of values. Where the economy is centrally controlled the demand for things and their relative value are unknown. They were always subject to shortages and they ordered too many of a thing. Not knowing how many would be used resulted in wasteful surpluses. These are monitored and driven by the market itself in capitalists economies. To keep the natural processes of the marketplace from asserting themselves required another civil authority to prevent it. This also tends to place much of the economy, its goods and services (capital) into black markets.
This illustrates a big problem with those who would do away with God's law word in the Holy Scriptures (antinomian.) They don't know how bad are the consequences of various sins. The changes in society make changeable and unknown what relative value should be given to this or that sin, in this or that circumstance, committed by this or that man. They don't have the value of things to refer to, including their own worth, or even that of God. This rejection of God's law to judge us always produces the formulation of a new, and usually sliding, system of values. Men become a law unto themselves. They may call themselves "sin-free;" but, in fact, the evidence usually shows they're really promoting "free-sin."
Quote from: Cardinal on December 06, 2009, 02:47:40 AM
:cloud9: The wages of sin is death. Death has not been abolished yet, not thrown into the lake of fire yet. What He appropriated for us, must be appropriated BY us.
Additionally, faith is the substance of things HOPED for, not had already. If all is done, then we have nothing to have faith FOR. Blessings....
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
{image your whole post here but let's save some bandwidth}
Hey Cardinal,
1) We all have preconceived ideas and agendas! That makes this (our) acceptance and realization part of the journey!
2) That presumes that the covenant was made with us.
There we go again leaving out audience relevance. :)
Does it absolutely have to be our own journey that we are reading about??? Does it really have to be? Really?
Or is that just another presumption that we feel must be the truth because those are the doctrines that framed and gave structure to our personal revelations?
In your view:
Is there a point where humanity is preserved as humanity and meats all your expectations for fulfillment and yet is allowed to continue its journey?
My concern is that we have made it all about us.
A few personal thoughts Sis.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Cardinal on December 06, 2009, 02:47:40 AM
:cloud9: The wages of sin is death. Death has not been abolished yet, not thrown into the lake of fire yet. What He appropriated for us, must be appropriated BY us.
Additionally, faith is the substance of things HOPED for, not had already. If all is done, then we have nothing to have faith FOR. Blessings....
When you get to heaven are perfected and completed, or when your soul and spirit are perfectly one will you then stop trusting God and have nothing left to hope for or have faith in?
Blessing Barry
:cloud9: Where is heaven Barry? When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, essentially He was saying I'm standing right here but I'm in heaven speaking to you. Paul said our conversation is from heaven. You can't speak from a place you've never been before, can you?
And no, the union of the soul and spirit IS, the resurrection. He said, I AM THE LIFE AND THE RESURRECTION. We are pressing in as Paul said (which means there's something YET TO DO) for the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus. The high calling is becoming one with the High Priest of OUR confession WHO GOES BEHIND THE VEIL, ie. sees God the Father WITHOUT literally dying to do so.
There is a resurrection that can take place while STILL in the body, which Paul also talked about when he said that immortality (Christ in you) was going to swallow up mortality (you). In other words, the glory that is in us, is going to be revealed/unveiled as it consumes our mortality.
At that point, you have the completed perfected faith of Christ, whose faith faileth not. When He comes will He find faith in YOUR "earth"? This is the faith that will move that mountain of sinful flesh (of the others) that ALL of creation might be set free. Some are set to declare (means to show openly, unveiled) His generation in their earth. Blessings...
:HeartThrob:
Sinfree is a reality for some.
Some day All Will be here.
Lee
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 03:52:16 AM
{image your whole post here but let's save some bandwidth}
Hey Cardinal,
1) We all have preconceived ideas and agendas! That makes this (our) acceptance and realization part of the journey!
2) That presumes that the covenant was made with us.
There we go again leaving out audience relevance. :)
Does it absolutely have to be our own journey that we are reading about??? Does it really have to be? Really?
Or is that just another presumption that we feel must be the truth because those are the doctrines that framed and gave structure to our personal revelations?
In your view:
Is there a point where humanity is preserved as humanity and meats all your expectations for fulfillment and yet is allowed to continue its journey?
My concern is that we have made it all about us.
A few personal thoughts Sis.
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: The whole book is Spirit, written to our spirits, to the generation that is to become one with the Spirit. How's this for audience relevance? These were Jewish "converts" to the new covenant Paul was speaking to, ie. the book to the HEBREWS.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the
HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The bolded above, equals COVENANT, just as one was made at Sinai, which was a WEDDING CONTRACT, ie. God joining Himself to His bride = soul and Spirit coming into UNION. He is both marriage minded and PROCREATION minded, as He wants to produce a SON with us all.
BUT; are you as a gentile grafted in? Are you a partaker of the new covenant? Then WHO is the house of Israel NOW to the Lord, spiritually speaking? SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS, ie. it both came through His covenant to the natural JEW FIRST, then the gentile, AND it is of the spiritual "Jews" NOW.
That there is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore does not mean there's NEITHER as if they don't exist, it means they're MADE ONE, AS A SPIRITUAL CIRCUMCISION, IN HIM, WHO IS, THE PROMISED LAND, OUR REST. Who was the promised land for, Jew or gentile?
This is why it says those that are circumcised of heart, ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, because we are spiritual "Jews" now, seeking to enter fully into His rest, our promised land of milk and honey, seeking to dwell in spiritual Israel, that has a spiritual NEW JERUSALEM with a NEW TEMPLE that has both the Father and the Son in residence.
The book is speaking to us, but since our life/identity is HID in Christ, we have to press in to gain our TRUE identity. Blessings....
My summation:
There really is no point in attempting to contradict personal interpretations and subjectivity with biblical evidence.
We know good and well that they were expecting the end of the age, the judgment and the resurrection of the dead in their time. We just cannot live with that. We need to continue the battle!
We need our sin.
We need our sanctification.
We need our religion.
We need our salvation.
We need our faith. [Doesn't mean that it is the faith of Christ Jesus]
In striving to lose ourselves all our lives and find our true self we make a religion out of losing ourselves and finding our true self. We can't ever really find ourselves because losing ourselves has become our new self. Can't afford to acctually reach the goal or see the arrival for if we did we would lose our need to lose ourself.
A fulfilled revelation of God's love without condition is not enough for us. "God don't take my sin away, I got more work to do"
"The end could not have come look at all the sin around us!"
Behold the Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world.
No Lord you couldn't have done that! I would have to give up my losing my self self. I can't give up that self because then I won't be able to fine my true self.
The only true self is the one that knows it is loved without condition. That is the true self. Everything else is a pile of doctrines.
We will never get doctrines behind us if fulfillment has not arrived.
We are stuck in circular reasoning to satisfy need to remain thirsty. We made a religion out of being thirsty and then call that being spiritual minded. Yep got to keep putting off that flesh for sure!
The evidence for a first century fulfillment of all things is most surely there in the scriptures.
God loves you right now without any condition what so ever. Accept it and be your true self.
All that the law and sin and death were about is to show us that the answer is not in our own insecurity in our relationship. That insecurity is not our true self.
Just some personal opinions.
Blessings Barry
QuoteAll that the law and sin and death were about is to show us that the answer is not in our own insecurity in our relationship. That insecurity is not our true self.
The law shows us what we lacked. Jesus appeared to fill us up. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on December 06, 2009, 08:08:50 AM
QuoteAll that the law and sin and death were about is to show us that the answer is not in our own insecurity in our relationship. That insecurity is not our true self.
The law shows us what we lacked. Jesus appeared to fill us up. :HeartThrob:
Hey Seth.
What did Adam lack before he eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
A hint, not a resurrected body of the sorts that so many want to get before they agree to see fulfillment.
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Many blessings
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 08:37:48 AM
Quote from: Seth on December 06, 2009, 08:08:50 AM
QuoteAll that the law and sin and death were about is to show us that the answer is not in our own insecurity in our relationship. That insecurity is not our true self.
The law shows us what we lacked. Jesus appeared to fill us up. :HeartThrob:
Hey Seth.
What did Adam lack before he eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
A hint, not a resurrected body of the sorts that so many want to get before they agree to see fulfillment.
A resurrected body was not what I was referring to.
Matt 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 04:59:59 AM
Sinfree is a reality for some.
Some day All Will be here.
Lee
Those who have entered into physical immortality or deathless embodiment are potentially free from doing acts of sin. "Sin reigns in death." (Rm 5:21) Without the death state, having incorruptible life, Sin can no longer reign. As long as we have an Adamic body of flesh and blood we are usually mortal (though some exceptions may exist.) This means we have sin, even if we do not do sin. "If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8, CLT) If we are disposed to the Spirit we will not commit sin even if it is present in our members.
Even if would be acceptable to consider those things you assert happened in the first century actually happened, until they happen in the attributes of our own being, spirit, soul and body, they are yet future to us. Yes, Jesus physically died, descended into hell, raised from the dead on the third day, according to the Scriptures, showed Himself to those He had chosen and to 500 men plus women and children, about 1000 to 1500 people, which were His disciples, and He ascended into the right hand of God.
Now, what has happened to us? He left for us an open door into God. What experience of the Divine nature have we entered into? This physical body must be changed and placed into full legally inheriting born of God, "Sonship" status. That means everything in the physical cosmos becomes subject to such a being. This is the promise to Abraham and his seed, "...to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world (Grk: cosmos.)" There is more that can be said, but this is enough truth to be accepted for now.
Luke 20:34-38 (CLT)...
34 And, answering, Jesus said to them, "The sons of this eon are marrying and are taking out in marriage.
35 Yet those deemed worthy to happen upon that eon and the resurrection from among the dead are neither marrying nor taking out in marriage.
36 For neither can they still be dying, for they are equal to messengers (AV: 'angels,') and are the sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
37 "Now that the dead are rousing, even Moses divulges at the thorn bush, as he is terming the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
38 Now God is He, not of the dead, but of the living, for
all, to Him, are living."
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
wow. "sons of the resurrection"!!!
Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Reformer: I know your a mod, and I "know" that you know lots more than I, but we do have Lots of differant thinkings,,
you said, "Post 190 as long as we have an Adamic body of flesh & blood"
Try this thought , What If it was all changed at JC's Rezz day?? and the Adamic body & Nature is NO MORE...??? (WHAT IF )
Just think about that angle. Because I believe that all that Adam brought into the world called death ended at that day above. ALL was dragged into life then/union with God the Father and all Adam did God undid in one body of Life and Love, His Anointed. What IF???
Ok, I do agree that there is alot of things we as being, some with less light/love are progressing to a better or higher level of understanding, as beings, we don't know we have been made alive, so most live a life of what "was" called sin,
But how many things of the old school things do not apply to His children today and how much does apply to his children today.
I would like a short version of what you think applies today, If you use your mind and heart-being, make a short list of all those things (Rules/Laws) that you 'think' applies to all humankind, that is a requirement to be IN Christ, Here and Now in this life...
I personally would like NON bible verses i.e. leave out your referances to the bible, cause with out them, I can tell more clearly where the thought is coming from/your being. I know the Bibles fairly good too, I have them all, and I have E-Sword for one, and ALL the links. lets say your on the street talking to a person, and make the list above out of YOU.
Of course you may look up all you need too, but say it from you and not cut and paste style.
I do have no problem with being wrong, I have been there so many times that I was beginning to think it was my home.
so lets just be respectful to each others beliefs with out any meaness and all will be well.... everything out of Love... is good.
SORRY MY SPELL CHECKER ISN'T WORKING...
LEE DAMBOISE II
Yes, but one cannot get to filled. Not in any satisfied state.
Because one see themselfs as still Adamic in ones very nature.
You see the Gospel is a mirror. Until the perfect comes you cannot know as you are known.
The sin that reigns in death is not physical death. This is apparently where you ere greatly.
Seth, where in the bible do you get a "physical immortality or deathless embodiment". Is that like the flesh and blood that does inherit the kingdom? Is that like a spiritual flesh?
I really do want to understand your view.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 04:05:55 PM
Yes, but one cannot get to filled. Not in any satisfied state.
Because one see themselfs as still Adamic in ones very nature. ( Sad you see your self this way, the real problem is that YOU see YOUR self as this, I DONT.)
You see the Gospel is a mirror. Until the perfect comes, you cannot know as you are known. I truly feel very sad now that you have not SEEN the perfect come YET.
The sin that reigns in death is not physical death.( Daa, Spiritual death happened to all in Adam, New Life IN Him happened at the Rezz Day FOR ALL THINGS, DONE DEAL.) This is apparently where you ere greatly. (Under your belief system of Death.)
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 04:36:49 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 04:05:55 PM
Yes, but one cannot get to filled. Not in any satisfied state.
Because one see themselfs as still Adamic in ones very nature. ( Sad you see your self this way, the real problem is that YOU see YOUR self as this, I DONT.)
You see the Gospel is a mirror. Until the perfect comes, you cannot know as you are known. I truly feel very sad now that you have not SEEN the perfect come YET.
The sin that reigns in death is not physical death.( Daa, Spiritual death happened to all in Adam, New Life IN Him happened at the Rezz Day FOR ALL THINGS, DONE DEAL.) This is apparently where you ere greatly. (Under your belief system of Death.)
I'm not following Lee.
It might be possible that you have misunderstood me and or I have not mad myself very clear.
Blessings Barry
k
I was referring to post 194
be back later. Lee
My post 194 rewritten: (my bad for sure on the initial effort, and thanks Lee for the heads up!)
The bible speaks of a thirst being quenched. A thirst being satisfied.
An end result is in view. This end result is spoken of here:
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The gospel that the kingdom of God was at hand or meaning that the kingdom of heaven was at hand functioned like a mirror.
The end result of that mirror was to know as being known. A fulfilled revelation of being known through a love without condition.
In this time period of a "transitional awareness" a "transitional knowledge" was in effect.
The transition was from types and figures to the fullness of the substance. The substance fullness was to know love without condition which superseded types and figures and completed the transitional knowledge that they then possessed.
The problem today is that we are seeing ourselves in the transition in a continued Adamic state. So then transitional doctrines or teachings are seen to be of current status. We have elongated the partial in our minds way beyond its actual historical reality.
That's why we can't quite ever get satisfied with this thirst.
Then because of our presumptions have blamed it on our alleged continued perceived adamic struggles.
Would be happy to reexplain or clarify further these thought. I know that I don't acctually write what I'm thinking so my bad :)
Barry
Barry would you mind giving your input on what "God is no respector of persons" means to you? Do you see all of us (in this age of fulfillment) as "persons"?
I think many here will say,as long as we are a "person", then God's fire/judgment (which is good) will continue to "burn away" the "self identity/egoic/carnal mind"; inwardly; moving from "law mindset" to "God/love".
thanks
also, do you see a need for mankind to "wake up/grow in experential awareness" to God's love "between the ears"? And if so, do you see this process as independent of the process "between the ears" that the first fruits went through? If so, what do you see as the process of "waking up"?
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 08:37:48 AM
What did Adam lack before he eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
A hint, not a resurrected body of the sorts that so many want to get before they agree to see fulfillment.
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
:cloud9: Not a resurrected body? Did you read that closely, Barry?
"they which are called according to His purpose, receive the promise of
ETERNAL INHERITANCE." :cloud9: Do you understand what our inheritance IS? Portion and inheritance mean the same thing in Hebrew. The priest's portion was God Himself. This fact was born WITNESS, by the fact that the Holy Ghost fell on them as a PORTION of their inheritance on the day of Pentecost, as the HG and God are ONE. Note the principle that God came DOWN to give it, we didn't go "up", ie. die to receive it. So they/we receive a portion of GOD HIMSELF, while we are waiting for the FULLNESS OF OUR REDEMPTION.
Redemption relates also to land purchases, and the Lord is purchasing our "land" because He intends (and is doing it), to build Himself a temple there, not build with hands, a DWELLING PLACE. The baptism or anointing of His Spirit, is important because anointing means among other things, to make holy, sanctify, set apart for service. We were made to inherit,an HEIR, as a son of promise, grafted in by His Spirit. And the thing about an inheritance is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DIE TO RECEIVE IT.
Let's look at WHERE it is, then we'll look at WHAT it is......
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the
dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an
inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Acts 3:21 Whom the
heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1Peter 1:4 To an
inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you,
Now for what it is.....
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his
inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his
power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ,
when he raised him from the dead, and
set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Heb. 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath
by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober , and
hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:17 And if children, then
heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also
glorified together.
Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an
heir of God through Christ.
Galatians 3:18 For if the
inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.[/b]
And what does the adoption entail?
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. And how it comes.....
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto
them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvationMatthew 24:30 And then
shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear , then
shall ye also appear with him in glory. And what are the clouds He appears in........
Jude 1:12 KJV
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:
clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead , plucked up by the roots
There are those without water (of the Spirit) who are swept about by every wind of doctrine, instead of being moved only by His Spirit. They are twice dead, because they missed both the first appearing of Him in their heavens, and the second appearing unto the salvation or redemption of their bodies, because they were not looking for Him. So they will be plucked up by the roots (physical death).
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But what of those that look for Him?
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd
shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. What is this crown of glory? It's many things, but the for sake of this topic it's.....
Proverbs 12:4 KJV
A virtuous
woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
The soul is the garment of the Spirit. One that has been cleansed of spot and wrinkle, is as a VIRTUOUS WOMAN, GLORIFIED FLESH, that becomes a crown of glory to her husband (Spirit). I could go on but I will stop here. Blessings....
:cloud9: Now I want to add on to this thought.........
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritancein the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
And to show how He started this work in us.....
The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord; tongues/flames of fire came upon them and lit their candle. And out of their innermost being (bellies/spirit) began to flow rivers of living water. It was said in Acts 2 that He shed forth this (from being seated in heaven with the Father) which you see and hear.
Being baptized into water is being baptized into the likeness of his death/descending. Being baptized in the Spirit is being baptized/raised into the likeness of his glorified life, and is why Paul said our conversation is FROM HEAVEN, and why he said he spoke with the tongues of angels.
You can't speak from a place you've never been before, but through that baptism we are seated with Him in heavenly places (next to Father), ie. the river of life that proceeds from the THRONE. So that He that ascended is also He that descended.
Now just where IS His throne if the same rivers of living water that proceed from it, are coming out of our bellies? And since the VEIL was rent to reveal that throne in the type and shadow of the temple, and since the glory is to be REVEALED IN US, and since the revelation of Jesus Christ happens IN THE TEMPLE, and since know ye not ye are the TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD, I just wonder why according to the fables of men, God would want to keep on destroying HIS TEMPLES, seeing how He plans to be REVEALED from there? Hmmm.....Blessings...
Hey Zeek,
All try and do my best. Let me know if I need to clarify. Do let me know if you have any questions or disagreements as well.
God is not a respecter of persons in that His love is equal to all.
The "loved ones" within the transition of the ages that being the "sons of God" by characteristic, were the one who "saw" and put into practice the results of knowing that love.
It doesn't mean that they were to only loved ones.
Also in relation to that then, the Just and unjust at this time are included in this aspect of "not being a respecter of persons". Obviously two different groups.
As there was obviously a calling for a certain group to be manifesters of God's love in an outworking of historical import by loving one's enemies. Clearly then there are "groups" in question.
The "loved ones" who saw the love and the "enemies" who did not, thus making themselves enemies in their mind and outworking that fact historically as their conscience is judged against the law in their minds.
Notice that the so called enemies receive the same rain whether they acknowledge it or not.
We are in a whole new world. History can now and does now build upon itself because everything has been made new. Previously this could not happen and had no God given blessing upon such potential (see Babel).
Things are coming along actually. Here we are way ahead of the dark ages! Talking about loving each other and the love of God which is without condition. Discussion equality for all people under God in the precept of Him not being a respecter of persons.
At no point in past history do we see the things that have been happening over the last few hundred years. Never were their global movements to end slavery and such. Never! It was not in their thinking.
To get to your point, the awareness indicative of love consciousness if growing. The remaining ignorance of it does not nullify the reality of it.
Our personal growth, and maturing process is not that which touches on the subject of then applied transitional principles which were framed in eschatology and soteriology. It is separate and apart from that. We are not fulfilling, we are moving onward because of fulfillment. Most are not yet catching on to what is actually happening. That does not change the facts.
The problem is that people have theologically come to despise the human condition and have interpreted "in the flesh" as meaning human. But it never did. It meant being in the human condition that the human condition was then in.
And so circular reasoning is employed. If I'm human the end did not come! That is the incorrect conclusion in spite of all the scriptural evidence to the contrary.
The benefits to coming to the feet of a God that loves you without condition of any sort is personal. But it can't remain personal. For how we feel about ourselves is how we treat others. And the judgment that we place on another is the judgment that we must accept ourselves. And the hurt that we do to other is the hurt we thus feel we ourselves deserve on some level. This is why the law and sin consciousness cannot be a new beginning.
The common Christian is blessed in know that God loves them.
When they believe in hell then they are never at ease because they are afraid of doing something to disserve the same fate.
Better then Universalism or UR.
But still as long as we think of ourselves as "in the flesh" that the bible refers to then the belief system has its own consequences. It is inevitable. You (IE one) cannot fully trick the mind.
Only a firm stance on love with no condition at all can free the mind from the religious stance involving a preoccupation of feeling the need to attain to a predestinated "arrival" that involves twists and turns in diverse doctrines.
For the buddhist it may be the eradication of the ego. For the common Christian it may be living as a human in a human body or getting all the sin out of one's life (with God's help of course)
Instead however just simple know that you are loved fully and totally and the one in the mirror is that loved one. That loved one is now the true one.
Not that all insecurity forever vanishes. But that the biblically defined "perfect" is nevertheless recognized and embraced.
With that embracing we move forward but not as ones perpetually stuck within an eschatological and stereological body.
Just some thoughts.
Blessings Barry
Hi Barry,
noted your above post with interest. Note Jacob/Israel my son
served for a wife,but was given a Leah first[weak eyes/the
flesh is weak] and replied..did I not serve for Rachel.?
I thought you might be able to integrate this into your
understanding . And also glimpse the bride coming down out of
Heaven prepared for her husband.
thanks,Sheila
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 06, 2009, 04:05:55 PM
Yes, but one cannot get to filled. Not in any satisfied state.
Because one see themselfs as still Adamic in ones very nature.
You see the Gospel is a mirror. Until the perfect comes you cannot know as you are known.
This is all dependant on human thinking to come to a satisfied state, as if one must conform his thinking, and that such a mind change alone will in itself fill someone in the manner Christ was speaking about?
When Jesus said that "BLESSED are those who HUNGER AND THIRST for righteousness, for they will be FILLED," he wasn't talking about human mental compartmentalization. He was talking about the Holy Spirit and fulfilling a promise of a supernatural conforming to righteousness according to a promise long ago made.
QuoteThe sin that reigns in death is not physical death. This is apparently where you ere greatly.
You tell me that I err greatly in something I didn't say?
QuoteSeth, where in the bible do you get a "physical immortality or deathless embodiment". Is that like the flesh and blood that does inherit the kingdom? Is that like a spiritual flesh?
I really do want to understand your view.
The whole thing about immortality is just not something I want to get into. Hope you understand.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 05, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is refering to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I dont think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
Great post!
Yes, all the chruches were coming under attack by the Judaizers and their converts which became Judaizers.
This is the context of every great house and the vessels their in.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
This is how "Judgement began at the house of God" and signaled clearly that "the end of all things was at hand" as per Peter's points.
There is no historical proof of any problems with the Gnostic in the time of the writings of the New Testament. It is all subjective theory and no context to back it up. No history to back it up either. Just hearsay and subjective interpretation.
Blessings Barry
I didn't explain my point well. let me try again:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
of course Paul is speaking about Christian Judaizers in verse 14. Chilton's rather shocking claim though is that in verse 15 Paul also is speaking about the Jewish believers in Jesus rather than the Jews who opposed the Gospel message.
I don't think that makes any sense since he writes:
Quotethe Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
Chilton works at Bard College with Jacob Neusner the Jewish apologist and goes out of his way to show that rabbinical Judaism is perfectly compatible with Christianity.
the question is what does Paul intend here:
QuoteThey displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
it seems clear to me this is a reference to unbelieving Jews and a prophecy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. I don't think Chilton et al are correct in saying that Paul here only criticizes the Jewish believers.
Hey Rebecca
Just wanted to tell you that IMO those last couple of posts of yours were as good as it gets.
IMO they could be printed out and handed to folks who just don't get it and tell them that when they agree call me.
Besides having the knowledge you do stay the course and I admire you for that :HeartThrob:
Blessings to you
Doug
:cloud9: Thanks, Doug. I appreciate that, more than you know right now. :girlheart:
So... you guys. If an 11 year old asked you "Is the end of the world coming soon? Are we living in the 'end times' ?" how would you answer them?
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 06, 2009, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 02:35:48 AM
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 05, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 05, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
Hey Doug,
Do you think that the Judaizers are the ones that Paul is referring to as the ones teaching circumcision in Philippians chapter 3 and throughout Galatians?
Barry
according to Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Paul book yes definitely. Chilton makes an amazing claim that Paul had more enmity to the Judaizers within Christianity than to the unbelieving Jews outside of Christianity. He claims that in this verse Paul speaks against Christian Judaizers rather than generally unbelieving Jews. I don't think that could be correct, though:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
Great post!
Yes, all the chruches were coming under attack by the Judaizers and their converts which became Judaizers.
This is the context of every great house and the vessels their in.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
This is how "Judgement began at the house of God" and signaled clearly that "the end of all things was at hand" as per Peter's points.
There is no historical proof of any problems with the Gnostic in the time of the writings of the New Testament. It is all subjective theory and no context to back it up. No history to back it up either. Just hearsay and subjective interpretation.
Blessings Barry
I didn't explain my point well. let me try again:
Quote1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
of course Paul is speaking about Christian Judaizers in verse 14. Chilton's rather shocking claim though is that in verse 15 Paul also is speaking about the Jewish believers in Jesus rather than the Jews who opposed the Gospel message.
I don't think that makes any sense since he writes:
Quotethe Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
Chilton works at Bard College with Jacob Neusner the Jewish apologist and goes out of his way to show that rabbinical Judaism is perfectly compatible with Christianity.
the question is what does Paul intend here:
QuoteThey displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
it seems clear to me this is a reference to unbelieving Jews and a prophecy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. I don't think Chilton et al are correct in saying that Paul here only criticizes the Jewish believers.
I think that you are correct. It is not only the alleged Jewish believers that are in question.
Also on the Judaizers I have a post here Reply #152 that touches on them a bit.
However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.
Blessings Barry,
All for today, got things to do :)
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 02:16:08 AM
However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.
Yes, the apostle Peter says judgment begins at the house of God. Which "house" does he mean? The Jewish temple? No, he means the church, because he says: "if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
Those who "obey not the gospel" were unbelievers, both Jew and Gentile; "us" means the church.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? We can see that God's "household" is the church, because the saints are the "children of God," [Luke 20:36; John 11:52] and "sons of God." [Rom. 8:14, 19; 1 John 3:1, 2]
Doug
Quote from: sparrow on December 07, 2009, 02:09:09 AM
If an 11 year old asked you "Is the end of the world coming soon? Are we living in the 'end times' ?" how would you answer them?
Death comes to everyone at the end of life, each in their own time. :mblush:
Quote from: peacemaker on December 07, 2009, 05:21:03 AM
Quote from: sparrow on December 07, 2009, 02:09:09 AM
If an 11 year old asked you "Is the end of the world coming soon? Are we living in the 'end times' ?" how would you answer them?
Death comes to everyone at the end of life, each in their own time. :mblush:
Peacemaker,
That reminds me of something my now deceased aunt once said to me. The end of the world is the day you die -- that is when the world ends for you.... I thought it made a lot of sense at the time she said it.
Anne
I would say when the end of the world comes, then it is time to learn that God has just awakened your/His Spirit in YOU, and you are now a new Creation in God's Son, and All things have passed away and All things are now new , Walk in Newness of Life and show those that ain't there yet the peace of God and His Love. That IS the end of the world (Earth Made Man) and there is no death in this form of Life even here on earth.
Thanks guys.. :girlheart:
Great thoughts!!
I appreciate your replies and was nodding my head as I read all of them. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on December 07, 2009, 05:27:56 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on December 07, 2009, 05:21:03 AM
Quote from: sparrow on December 07, 2009, 02:09:09 AM
If an 11 year old asked you "Is the end of the world coming soon? Are we living in the 'end times' ?" how would you answer them?
Death comes to everyone at the end of life, each in their own time. :mblush:
That reminds me of something my now deceased aunt once said to me. The end of the world is the day you die -- that is when the world ends for you.... I thought it made a lot of sense at the time she said it.
Sound practical judgment that is independent of knowledge. :yes:
Quote from: Livelystone on December 06, 2009, 11:20:46 PM
Hey Rebecca
Just wanted to tell you that IMO those last couple of posts of yours were as good as it gets.
IMO they could be printed out and handed to folks who just don't get it and tell them that when they agree call me.
Besides having the knowledge you do stay the course and I admire you for that :HeartThrob:
Blessings to you
Doug
Amen Doug!
Galatians 4 (Amplified Bible)
28
But we, brethren, are children [not by physical descent, as was Ishmael, but] like Isaac,
born in virtue of promise.
29 Yet [just] as at that time the child [of ordinary birth] born according to the flesh despised and persecuted him [who was born remarkably] according to [the promise and the working of] the [Holy] Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say? Cast out and send away the slave woman and her son, for never shall the son of the slave woman be heir and share the inheritance with the son of the free woman.
31 So, brethren,
we [who are born again]
are not children of a slave woman [the natural], but
of the free [the supernatural].
These scriptures even work if you just read the bold, :HeartThrob:
Just a little question on the last few posts if you don't mind.
I thought that the "end" would encompass people that Paul wrote to that would be alive and waiting?
1 Cor. 15:51
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The end here is not the end of life.
The end here is not the end of our life unless some of those folks are still alive.
Just asking.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 03:34:05 PM
Just a little question on the last few posts if you don't mind.
I thought that the "end" would encompass people that Paul wrote to that would be alive and waiting?
1 Cor. 15:51
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The end here is not the end of life.
The end here is not the end of our life unless some of those folks are still alive.
Just asking.
Blessings Barry
Did Paul claim to know when the end of the age would come? No. Paul even said prophecies would fail. They certainly did, as while there were prophets in the early church, they largely
ceased for most of the church's history, along with other gifts, such as miracles of healing.
1 Cor. 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.So this doesn't seem as though Paul was making any firm predictions as to when the
end would occur. He said prophecy gives only a glimpse, or a
partial view of what will occur.
1 Cor. 13:9-12
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.By exhorting Christians to prepare, and be ready, and look for Christ's coming, Paul and the apostles were setting an
example for the church in
all future centuries, and obeying what Jesus said to do:
Mark 13:32-37
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Doug
Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:
the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth) is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.) But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.
Lee
Quote from: Doug1 Cor. 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
So this doesn't seem as though Paul was making any firm predictions as to when the end would occur.
Interestingly enough, he does seem to be implying it would happen during a dark time--when prophecies fail, tongues cease, and knowledge vanishes away.
This is further supported by this verse you quoted--
Quote35 Watch ye therefore: for
ye know not
when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all,
Watch
.
Midnight and Dawn are the two most difficult watches, as any sailor knows, because they occur when people are usually asleep. Again, it seems to be implying that he will come during the darkest parts of the night, and he exhorts us not to sleep, as others are, but to watch.
Matthew 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.John 7:33
Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.---John 9
Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2009, 04:38:54 PM
Quote from: Doug1 Cor. 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
So this doesn't seem as though Paul was making any firm predictions as to when the end would occur.
Interestingly enough, he does seem to be implying it would happen during a dark time--when prophecies fail, tongues cease, and knowledge vanishes away.
Yes, there are many indications that the day of the Lord is a time of darkness. Joel called it "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness;" Isaiah said "the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." Zechariah said:
Zech. 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. Peter said:
2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2009, 04:38:54 PM
This is further supported by this verse you quoted--
Quote35 Watch ye therefore: for
ye know not
when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all,
Watch
.
Midnight and Dawn are the two most difficult watches, as any sailor knows, because they occur when people are usually asleep. Again, it seems to be implying that he will come during the darkest parts of the night, and he exhorts us not to sleep, as others are, but to watch.
Matthew 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
John 7:33
Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
---John 9
At the end of the world the tares are gathered up and burned.
Mat. 13:40-41
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Doug
Hey Doug,
The meaning of prophecies failing is not at all that they would be wrong. Not if they were from God!
They would fail in that they would through fulfillment be of no more use.
And Paul did know when the end would come as pertains to the possible life span of the relevant audience in question. He did not know when within that constraint the end would come.
Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.
Quote:
By exhorting Christians to prepare, and be ready, and look for Christ's coming, Paul and the apostles were setting an example for the church in all future centuries, and obeying what Jesus said to do:
End quote.
This is so very nonsensical imo.
An example of what? How to be so very wrong about near, and quick and shortly and at hand? Said it before and it bears repeating, if Paul expected it and it did not happen then he was wrong.
You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?
How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?
You did claim Doug, that Paul was probably expecting these things in the short time that I've been speaking about. Yet you attempt to detract from the fulfilled view by claiming that Old Testament prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. If Paul was not seeing these things being fulfilled in his time then how could he have probably been expecting the end???
Now do not get me wrong Doug. I am in no way judging you. I do not do that. I cannot do it. Not without judging myself. It's not my job. You can believe anything you want to as most people do just that.
What I am saying is that without the end that we were supposed to have, (and did have actually) then we are still struggling in the very doctrines and prophecies that have failed already.
Failed because their time was done. Failed because the transitional knowledge or knowledge of the transition has been completed.
The knowledge that ceased was the knowledge of the transition itself. That meaning, once the redemption of the purchased possession has been fully redeemed then the knowledge of awaiting for it ceases.
Then the end result is to know as known. To know as known is to know love without condition. That is how we are known.
Not through the old covenant, not through the law, not through reining death, not through sin separation but through love without condition.
And that IMO harmonizes with what I've posted on this thread.
I believe this bears repeating:
We have a very very hard time admitting that we are not the audience in question. It does not come easily for us.
If there is an "end" of our prideful life because we experientially see what they went through and so then what they came to see, then in that sense apply the life we have in Christ it is because it has been done not because it is being done.
IMHO it is this that we are having trouble adapting to. And much of that because we really just don't belive that this life is all that wonderful. Our perception dictates our interpretation.
JMO Barry
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 07, 2009, 04:24:37 PM
Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:
the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth) is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.) But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.
Lee
Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)
It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.
The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1
Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]
The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.
Doug
Quote from: BarryYou said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?
How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?
Why couldn't it be both then and now? We are talking about the end of an age, not the end of the world. Maybe the end of the age looks the same now as then?
As also has been pointed out, it could be talking about the transitions we go through in our own lives.
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1
Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]
The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.
Doug
"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".
The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.
am I the only one seeing it this way??
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:56:18 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1
Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]
The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.
Doug
"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".
The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.
am I the only one seeing it this way??
Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?
Doug
(http://fullpreterism.com/wp-content/themes/thesis_151/rotator/Preterism-70ad.gif)
(http://www.preteristarchive.com/ARTchive/charts/Critical/hyper_donkey.jpg)
(http://fullpreterism.com/wp-content/themes/thesis_151/rotator/world-ended2-252x300.png)
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:56:18 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1
Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]
The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.
Doug
"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".
The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.
am I the only one seeing it this way??
Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?
Doug
if you tell me that "you won't die, UNTIL the knicks beat the lakers", and then say, "but you won't ever die"; then it seems logical to me, that I then know the knicks will never beat the lakers".
So,
I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come.
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 06:37:29 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:56:18 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I understood Doug's position to be that there could never be "an end" because Jesus rose from dead; and his words will never pass away. All there can ever be, is first fruits, with no consumation ever, because Jesus is alive.
from post 127 by Doug
"Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation. "
maybe i misunderstood. ??
The "firstfruits" are the ones pictured on Mount Sion in Rev. 14.1
Rev. 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
There is also "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Rev. 7:9, 14]
The "great tribulation," referred to here, I think, is the judgment.
Doug
"this generation will not pass away UNTIL all is fulfilled".
The UNTIL, implies at some point a fulfillment, and if occurs, then "this generation" will have passed away.
am I the only one seeing it this way??
Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?
Doug
if you tell me that "you won't die, UNTIL the knicks beat the lakers", and then say, "but you won't ever die"; then it seems logical to me, that I then know the knicks will never beat the lakers".
So,
I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come.
It simply points out the uniqueness of Jesus' generation; because of the fact that Jesus rose up from the grave to immortality, the "firstborn from the dead," it will not pass away.
Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2009, 05:53:27 PM
Quote from: BarryYou said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?
How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?
Why couldn't it be both then and now? We are talking about the end of an age, not the end of the world. Maybe the end of the age looks the same now as then?
As also has been pointed out, it could be talking about the transitions we go through in our own lives.
This is a very good question Molly imo. And I appreciate you asking my about my reasoning on the topics.
The very first problem (imo) we have is in immortalizing Adam and his effect upon humanity in perpetuity. Adam essentially is never dealt with then "historically".
It would mean that Christ is not the last Adam, but only the last Adam for all of us once we go through these twists and turns and experiential experiences of growth.
You see, once the cross takes place then an historical precedent occurs. The world in a sense changed. But it was still that age. Until types and figures which were promised to be dealt with were to pass away.
The problem then is types and figures are then only dealt with in our minds not historically. Instead of historically then, between our ears.
The two approaches are very different indeed.
One approach condemns humanity to an immortalized Adam and the other frees it into a world of a different form. Where the kingdoms of this world then belong to Christ. We now come into that realization without the need to go through whops and twists doctrines of transformation.
Much more could be said but maybe this is a bit of an intro.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
Hey Doug,
The meaning of prophecies failing is not at all that they would be wrong. Not if they were from God!
They would fail in that they would through fulfillment be of no more use.
A fulfilled prophecy would still be of use, as it confirms that God has fulfilled his word.
But, if prophecies were misunderstood, and misinterpreted, as they often are, they might
appear to have failed.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
And Paul did know when the end would come as pertains to the possible life span of the relevant audience in question. He did not know when within that constraint the end would come.
Even within your own view there is a given constraint. Unless one believes it will never happen then there is a interpreted constraint. But the contextual and provable constraint is within the possible life span of those to whom the Epistles were written.
Quote:
By exhorting Christians to prepare, and be ready, and look for Christ's coming, Paul and the apostles were setting an example for the church in all future centuries, and obeying what Jesus said to do:
End quote.
This is so very nonsensical imo.
An example of what?
An example of obedience to Christ? See Mark 13:37, where he said to "Watch."
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
How to be so very wrong about near, and quick and shortly and at hand? Said it before and it bears repeating, if Paul expected it and it did not happen then he was wrong.
So what? They were told to "watch." And the early Christians did.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
You said Doug, on another thread that Zech 14 prophesied what was going on in the church today. How can you possibly know that?
How can you possibly know that it was not referring to what was happening in the first century Church and only about that?
Zechariah was writing about "the day of the Lord." [Zech 14:1]
And the apostle Peter said the prophets ministered "unto us," or the church, and spoke by the spirit of Christ that was in them, and wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you ... unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:13]
From what Peter said, and other scriptures, it became clear to me that Zechariah must have written about the church, under the figure of Jerusalem, as Alexander also wrote in his commentary, which I quoted from. John also confirms this in Rev. 20:8-9, which refers to the church as the "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city" that is compassed round about by people of the earth, deceived by Satan. Rev. 12:9 says he "decieveth the whole world."
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
You did claim Doug, that Paul was probably expecting these things in the short time that I've been speaking about.
Paul probably learned some things during his lifetime, don't you think? Most of us continue to learn, and that usually involves shedding some former opinions. But perhaps, some of the things he wrote in the early years that did not apply to his generation, were preserved in scripture for another generation of saints to benefit from, to whom they do apply. It would fit the pattern of some of the OT revelations.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
Yet you attempt to detract from the fulfilled view by claiming that Old Testament prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. If Paul was not seeing these things being fulfilled in his time then how could he have probably been expecting the end???
See my previous comment.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:10:28 PM
Now do not get me wrong Doug. I am in no way judging you. I do not do that. I cannot do it. Not without judging myself. It's not my job. You can believe anything you want to as most people do just that.
What I am saying is that without the end that we were supposed to have, (and did have actually) then we are still struggling in the very doctrines and prophecies that have failed already.
Failed because their time was done.
No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief.
IMODoug
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 08:47:16 PM
No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief. IMO
Doug
Can you connect the dots for me on where "this generation" is referring to "his generation" again. You probably did this already; but I didn't get it.
it seems right to me to connect these dots with "this generation"
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken
this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with
this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto
this wicked generation.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon
this generation. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of
this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 08:55:22 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 08:47:16 PM
No, hyper preterists failed to understand that Christ having been raised from the dead means that his generation has not passed away. They built their system of a foundation of disbelief. IMO
Doug
Can you connect the dots for me on where "this generation" is referring to "his generation" again. You probably did this already; but I didn't get it.
it seems right to me to connect these dots with "this generation"
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Consider Luke 11:48-50:
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; The blood of the prophets who had been slain in all the previous centuries was required of Jesus, when he took the sin of all men upon himself, as he died on the cross.
His own death seems to be what Jesus referred to here. Those who actually killed him had a part in it too. So Jesus, and those who killed him, represent "this generation." And Jesus was revived, and remains alive, and represents that generation, so his generation has not passed away.
Doug
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--Rev 22
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 02:16:08 AM
However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.
i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.
judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.
Jesus also never spoke about "Judaizers". that was a problem that arose in apostolic times.
Genesis 1:5
New King James Version
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
God's day starts at night. As does our new day each time the clock strikes midnight.
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 07, 2009, 10:03:55 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 02:16:08 AM
However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.
i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.
judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.
Jesus also never spoke about "Judaizers". that was a problem that arose in apostolic times.
Yes indeed.
Allow me to clarify if I can my thoughts.
Not all Jewish believers are Judaizers. (not that you are saying that just clarifying)
The Judaizers were so called "believers" who were false teachers teaching the Gentiles to come under Israel's "natural" things and live like the Jews with food and drink obligations and new moons and Sabbath days and circumcision.
[they also began to teach at some point between Pentecost and the epistles of Thessalonians and Timothy that the day of Christ had already come and the resurrection had already come]
Correctly believing Jews accepted that the Gentiles were not to be brought into customs of Moses. The correctly believing Jews were however Zealous of the law and kept the old covenant law teachings and customs until the end (the end of the old covenant heavens and earth or AD 70. The observed the "elements of the world"). The correctly believing Jews also maintained temple worship and sacrifice as types and figures that were about to vanish away.
Side Note:
The surrounding armies as predicted in Luke were the armies of the Jews. This predicted the unrest of the coming three prong civil war of the Jews that in part led up to the coming of the Romans.
That meaning that the "abomination" in question which was the signal to leave was caused by the Jews not the Romans in the Jewish civil war. John (forgot his full name) entered into the temple and took refuge, there (against the law) which was an abomination, and did happen just prior to the advance of the Roman armies. While the Romans did destroy the temple they are not the "abomination" that is mentioned, which took place before the armies of the Romans appeared.
The Judgment which did begin in the House of God which was the church was between the Judaizers and the true apostles and true teaching. This judgment began the larger scope of Judgment which would be finalized in the then coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
1Pe 4:7 But
the end of all things is at hand: be ye
therefore sober,
and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:17
For the time [is come] that judgment
must begin at the house of God: and if [it]
first [begin] at us,
what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
The setting is one of being saved through sufferings and difficulty due the pressure and persecution. That formed a Judgment that began at the house of God.
Like described here:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
2Ti 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker:
of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But
in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 2Ti 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
While the judgment is not exclusively concerning the Judaizers it was predominantly about this. The Judaizers did not suffer the intense persecution that the other Christians did. Galatians speaks of this point often.
In this way Judgment began in the house of God. But was finalized in the end of the age.
Hope I connected the dots enough.
Barry
Quote from: Yeshua-Song on December 07, 2009, 10:03:55 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 02:16:08 AM
However imo it is in the house of God where judgement began. IE with the Judaizers and so then fully toward the none believing Jews in general at the destruction of Jerusalem.
i thought Jesus told His followers to flee Jerusalem when they would see it surrounded by the armies of pagan rome. He preached salvation to His followers, not judgment.
judgment fell mainly on unbelieving Israel, as Jesus said it would in Olivet.
Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; Which Jerusalem? Did anyone flee to the
mountains in 70 AD? Is that what Jesus meant? If so, why did he say this?
Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.Could the prophecy apply to the events in the first century, and to the events foretold by Zechariah too?
Events of 70 AD do not fit the prophecy of Zech. 14:1-5, as the Romans were victorious; Christ did not fight on behalf of the Jews; the mount of Olives did not cleave in the midst, etc.
The "Jerusalem" of Zech. 14 is the new Jerusalem, the church, [Heb. 12:22-23] which is also called the bride of the Lamb. [Rev 21:2] The "beloved city" and "the camp of the saints" is described as compassed about by the hordes of Gog and Magog, deceived by Satan, from the four quarters of the earth, in Rev. 20:8-9. This links to both Ezek. 38-39, and Zech. 14; Ezek. 38-39 because it refers to Gog and Magog, and Zech. 14 because it is about the holy city being compassed about by all the people of the earth.
In Zech. 14
all nations gather against Jerusalem, to battle. And the city is taken; houses rifled; women ravished; and half the city goes into captivity. I suggest this is referring to a
spiritual battle. The prophecy describes the church being taken over by leaders who are spiritually Gentiles, and by false teachers, which applies to much of the church's history. "Houses rifled" suggests they seek material wealth. "Women ravished" is a metaphor depicting people being seduced by false teachers as Paul alludes to in 2 Cor. 11:3.
The mount of Olives being
cleaved in the midst may represent the two contrasting interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus in modern times, preterism and dispensationalism. Zechariah said "the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;" --it is this "valley of the mountains" that Jesus probably alludes to.
I suggest to flee towards this valley represents abandoning dispensationalism and preterism, and applying the Olivet prophecy of Jesus, and most of prophecy, to the entire age of the church, rather than to Jews in 70 AD, or to Jews in a future 7 years tribulation as dispensationalists say. Zechariah says to flee as if from an earthquake, suggesting there is some urgency. And Rev. 12:12 may provide the reason: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
Then the
living waters go forth from the church to the world, which represents the true gospel, and the Lord is king over the entire earth. [Zech 14:8-9]
Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 11:55:22 PM
The Judgment which did begin in the House of God which was the church was between the Judaizers and the true apostles and true teaching. This judgment began the larger scope of Judgment which would be finalized in the then coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
...
The setting is one of being saved through sufferings and difficulty due the pressure and persecution. That formed a Judgment that began at the house of God.
Like described here:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
Any reason for leaving out verse 18 in the above quote, Barry?
2 Tim. 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Hmm... It identifies their doctrine as a heresy, right?
Doug
And where do these living waters come from?
John 4
14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian."
John 7
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
John 19
34but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce his side
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2009, 01:10:56 AM
And where do these living waters come from?
John 4
14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian."
John 7
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
See the next verse:
John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)The Spirit came from Christ:
Acts 2:32-33
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Doug
Amen Doug!
— which ye now see and hear
Also, notice that it was a soldier with a lance that pierced His side!
An outside instigation!
I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.
I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.
Shame on you!
I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry
Someone is clearly not of the brethren.
Who that someone is — is not the reason of this post.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2009, 03:04:46 AM
Someone is clearly not of the brethren.
Who that someone is — is not the reason of this post.
Could you please explain Beloved Servant?
I did not understand your post.
Blessings Barry
There is no shame in Christ Jesus.
There's only Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ArVuqm324&feature=related
2 Tim 2 Weymouth NT
2:16 But from irreligious and frivolous talk hold aloof, for those who indulge in it will proceed from bad to worse in impiety,
2:17 and their teaching will spread like a running sore. Hymenaeus and Philetus are men of that stamp.
2:18 In the matter of the truth they have gone astray, saying that the Resurrection is already past, and so they are overthrowing the faith of some.
2:19 Yet God's solid foundation stands unmoved, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who really belong to Him." And this also, "Let every one who names the Name of the Lord renounce all wickedness."
Consider, if the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus were to suddenly become true after a very few years, would Paul have written as he did?
Would they not rather have been honoured? But instead, Paul heaped shame on their doctrine. For it to be likened to gangrene made it absolutely horrible. A sore or wound affected by gangrene was often treated by amputation of the affected limb. It was ghastly to look at, and smelled awful. That is how Paul characterized their doctrine. Not only that, he said their doctrine would persist, not that it would suddenly become true! And sure enough, it has been revived in our generation by Max King! So Paul's prophecy has been fulfilled! And prophecy fulfilled in modern times throttles hyper-preterism!
Doug
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2009, 03:18:16 AM
There is no shame in Christ Jesus.
There's only Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ArVuqm324&feature=related
Very good indeed, thankyou. And I very much agree.
Some that dwell in the condemnation of others, and speak great swelling words of condmentation can be remided of the shame that they dwell within as their behavior manifests their own consience:
Act 22:24 The chief captain
commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.
Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by,
Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? Act 22:26 When the centurion heard [that], he went and told the chief captain, saying,
Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman. Act 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
Act 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was [free] born.
Amen.
Barry
Yes, the scriptures are a mirror to many.
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2009, 06:02:15 PM
God's kingdom endures forever. So when is that fufilled? Are you going to insist that "forever" arrived in 70 AD?
Doug
Quote from: Zeek on December 07, 2009, 06:37:29 PM
So,
I agree that "his kingdom will never end"; so to me i have to think then; what is "this generation" referring to; or if fulfillment will ever come.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then
comes the end, when
He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For
He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
Jesus' reign will end! The Kingdom belongs to the God and Father.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident
that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (God and Father). When all things are subjected to Him (God and
Father), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also
will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Jesus is calling the chosen to himself in this present age, to reign with Him for 1000 Years.
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ
and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that
to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Col 3:12 So, as
those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord;
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life
believed.Yet, the reign ends...and...
Rev 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Be nice, and have some fun with these thoughts!
Paul
Yes, the Kingdom is at hand!
:cloud9: AMEN Paul....His reign must end as He hands everything over to the Father. :thumbsup: Blessings....
I in You, You in Me and We in Them.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 08, 2009, 04:22:55 AM
:cloud9: AMEN Paul....His reign must end as He hands everything over to the Father. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of
his kingdom there shall be
no end.
??
:cloud9: It's a mystery.....
1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Apparently more translational issues involved with that verse.
Luke 1:33 in the Concordant Version has it; "and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."
The Concordant Commentary says; "The reign of Christ is for the eons, a long but limited period. He then gives up the kingdom to God the Father, so that the kingdom itself is endless (1Co.15:24). The negative is the only means used in the Scriptures to denote endlessness."
The Christian Bible (1992) has it; "..and He will reign over the house of Jacob for the remaining ages; and there will be no completion of His Kingdom."
The Christian Bible has I Cor. 15:24 and parts onward through 28 as; "..after this is the Completion, when He is going to deliver the Kingdom over to His God and Father, when He has made every other supreme chief and every other authority and power vanish. For He [Yesu] has to be reigning until He has placed all His enemies under His feet. Now when everything has been made subservient to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subservient to the One who has made everything subservient to Him, so that God might be in everything everywhere. :2thumbs:
:cloud9: Also.......1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
:cloud9: LOL, we had the same thought, Jab..... :thumbsup:
Funny...maybe not an 'oops' but an 'amen'. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 02:55:46 AM
I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.
I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.
Shame on you!
I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry
Well, sign me up for gutter detail then. What you left out has very much been a significant concern with your doctrine...which, may I add, in some particulars is to me "Songs from Lala Land." You seem to be denying the resurrection as an immediate goal for us, that, though it happened to Jesus (and I wonder, just what do you think has happened to Jesus?) yet, somehow, it is only a matter of believing it has already happened for everybody?
Again, I wonder what you think the resurrection is.
"...who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some. ((2 Ti 2:18, Concordant Literal Translation)
That you omitted it was rather too obvious!
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 03:23:49 PM
Reformer: I know your a mod, and I "know" that you know lots more than I, but we do have Lots of differant thinkings,,
you said, "Post 190 as long as we have an Adamic body of flesh & blood"
Try this thought , What If it was all changed at JC's Rezz day?? and the Adamic body & Nature is NO MORE...??? (WHAT IF )
Just think about that angle. Because I believe that all that Adam brought into the world called death ended at that day above. ALL was dragged into life then/union with God the Father and all Adam did God undid in one body of Life and Love, His Anointed. What IF???
It changed in the person of Jesus Who is called the Seed. Now it must actually come forth for the rest of the crop. Not only the Head, but the body of Christ must come into immortal and incorruptible life in their embodiment. The earnest of our inheritance is not the inheritance. We may have the mind of Christ, but we so little draw on it. We are incapable of seeing Him AS HE IS and living. Yes, all these things can be applied metaphorically to our spiritual life now, but they must affect the realm of physical matter and energy to be fully brought to pass. We must be changed to no longer merely have the word of wisdom or knowledge, but the mind of Christ in omniscience. "When this mortal shall have put on the immortal" what "gifts of healings" promised will manifest as a body that cannot get sick and in which there is no more death or pain. We must be physically changed from a 1st Adam body (homo sapiens) into a body of deathless glory like the last Adam Jesus changed and is now the New Man (homo novae), a quickening Spirit.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 03:23:49 PM
Ok, I do agree that there is alot of things we as being, some with less light/love are progressing to a better or higher level of understanding, as beings, we don't know we have been made alive, so most live a life of what "was" called sin,
What was called sin is still sin. Simple. "I am God and I change not." The change is for those deceived who dispose of the Words of Life, calling them "old school," or that "we are not under law" so now, they say, we can do as a gift from God what they thought was sin in olden times.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 06, 2009, 03:23:49 PM
But how many things of the old school things do not apply to His children today and how much does apply to his children today.
I would like a short version of what you think applies today, If you use your mind and heart-being, make a short list of all those things (Rules/Laws) that you 'think' applies to all humankind, that is a requirement to be IN Christ, Here and Now in this life...
I personally would like NON bible verses i.e. leave out your referances to the bible, cause with out them, I can tell more clearly where the thought is coming from/your being. I know the Bibles fairly good too, I have them all, and I have E-Sword for one, and ALL the links. lets say your on the street talking to a person, and make the list above out of YOU.
Of course you may look up all you need too, but say it from you and not cut and paste style.
I do have no problem with being wrong, I have been there so many times that I was beginning to think it was my home.
so lets just be respectful to each others beliefs with out any meaness and all will be well.... everything out of Love... is good.
SORRY MY SPELL CHECKER ISN'T WORKING...
LEE DAMBOISE II
I know part of it is all you accept as applying to us is a few verses in Ephesians, and those may be in question. Everything else is to those racially Jewish (who actually aren't there.) Beyond that, what's your problem with Scripture? That is really one of the few significant things we are concerned with to veriify as reliable. "All of Scripture for all of life" is a motto to which I subscribe. The writings of the Law and Prophets are as specially inspired and relevant today, if not more so, as they ever were. Like Paul in Galatians says, " Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?" (Ga 4:21, CLT) Rightly understood, the law is established by our intimacy with God. "Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law." (Rm 3:31, CLT) "The law is for the lawless." "Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets)..." (Rm 3:1, CLT) See, our being made the righteousnes of God in Him is not through a legalistic work. While we are not under law, it attests to what we are entering into. "Exempted from Christ were you who are being justified in law. You fall out of grace." (Ga 5:4, CLT)
As I sought to illustrate earlier, those whos get rid of God's law word in Scripture because, they say, "We are not under law, but under grace..." make their own laws. This is how so many develop into antichrists. They reject the anointing on those who retain the Words of Life God gave in Scipture, claiming this liberation from God's Word is part of how they're going on to bigger and better things, so they themselves are of the true anointing and those who hold to God's values in the Bible are out of step with the Spirit. They are to be fought against as hindering the progress of humanity while the enlightened deal with Scripture as only unreliable, for people of an earlier less enlightened era. So men align with the spirit of antichrist, fighting those who keep Jesus' word, while they promote their own law. Commonly this is that sin is no more. What previously was sin is now approved of their God.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 08, 2009, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 02:55:46 AM
I left out nothing intentionally out as pertains to an alleged need to leave something out.
I'm speaking with someone who is looking into the first century setting and context.
Thus my intention is only that which is to cover this persons questions as efficiently as possible.
I've already answered to your questions on this matter and on this scripture Doug.
Shame on you!
I could change my tone Doug and meet you in the gutter, belive me. Perhaps better that you stay there alone or nearly alone.
Barry
Well, sign me up for gutter detail then. What you left out has very much been a significant concern with your doctrine...which, may I add, in some particulars is to me "Songs from Lala Land." You seem to be denying the resurrection as an immediate goal for us, that, though it happened to Jesus (and I wonder, just what do you think has happened to Jesus?) yet, somehow, it is only a matter of believing it has already happened for everybody?
Again, I wonder what you think the resurrection is.
"...who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some. ((2 Ti 2:18, Concordant Literal Translation)
That you omitted it was rather too obvious!
Have you been reading my posts Reformer? Can I question now the honesty and convenient omission on your behalf of the fact that I've already discussed 2 Ti 2:18 several times and done so quite openly and evidently with no attempt to hide it by any means whatsoever.
And why are we wasting our time even going here? Because people want to debate and not discuss when they try to win an argument.
In debate any small advantage to be gained through any means of
discrediting is to be taken advantage of.
As per my intentions:
Why would I discuss the verse openly with everyone and then leave it out with someone that is
not even challenging preterism, at least not thus far but rather is openly discussing the context of first century Judaizers?
Also in the very post you are sighting I mention clearly with no reservation that the Judaizers were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Why then leave out the verse as if there is anything to hide? What kind of sense does that make?
If anyone wishes to debate the matter I would hope that they would open a designated debate thread to debate the matter and I'll join in to try and keep this thread in a little better standing .
I personally would rather not see this thread locked up by mods because it got out of hand because people were unable to simply discuss.
If you want my view of the resurrection Reformer, just ask.
If the subject matter is taboo then ban it.
Resurrection:
Resurrection is out of sin death. Christ was the
last Adam.
What is your understanding of resurrection?
Why did Jesus have human flesh and bone and eat food when he was resurrected?
Why did he have all his scares from his mode of death?
In your view is this, what will happen to you when you are resurrected?
Blessings and peace
Barry
In scripture the kingdom is handed over to the Father.
There is an "end".
The reign of Christ has no end.
The handing of the kingdom over to the Father does not end the reign of Christ. It ends the reign of Christ over his enemies. The presumption that one ends the other in totality is not present in the context.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] {sin}death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. {IE the Father is not made subject to the Son}
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him {God is love} that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The reign of Christ then continues as one subject to the Father. The purpose of that continued reign is to reign in Unity or the oneness of love.
The meaning of Reign is love. Within the transition it is good that concurred evil. It is love that won over. The one who loved most is the one who reigned until the enemies were destroyed through that love and then he reigns by that love forever.
1 Cor. 15:25-28 is a love story.
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 11:12:44 AM
In scripture the kingdom is handed over to the Father.
There is an "end".
The reign of Christ has no end.
The handing of the kingdom over to the Father does not end the reign of Christ. It ends the reign of Christ over his enemies. The presumption that one ends the other in totality is not present in the context.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] {sin}death.
The scripture does not say "sin" death, it says "death." Evidently those promoting the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus, that says the Resurrection is already past, have to wrest this scripture in a vain attempt to avoid the implication that it is about a resurrection from the grave, such as Jesus and the apostles taught. Apparently they hope that by changing "death" to "{sin} death" they can dispense with the central promise of the gospel! But it is misleading.
John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.Jesus shewed what "death" he destroys when he raised up Lazarus, who had been in the grave four days.
The gospel Jesus taught was a "great light" that shines for those who are "in the region and shadow of death" or who are mortal, who have to face death, which is all of us.
Mat. 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.As Joel said, the sun, which is called a "great light" in Genesis, would be turned to darkness because of false teachings that obscure the truth. This was fulfilled in the early centuries of the church as church fathers merged Plato's doctrine of an immortal soul with the teachings of the apostles. Its fruits are with us today.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.Barry's ideas about the resurrection being already past contribute to the darkness!
Doug
Reformer you said in post 1027
Now it must come froth for the rest of the crop, not only the Head but the body of Christ must come into immortal and incorruptible life in their embodiment.
I have to ask if you are 1) saying that all people have to work/earn/or do something to get this immortality-incorrutpible life in their embodiment?
2) as to the above condition, after lets say 50-100 years after Adam was in the ground, What did ALL mankind have to do (work/earn/ or do to get death) as their condition?
I still think that the Christ brought all mankind/things out of death with him when God the Father Rose Him out of the grave.
I personally do not believe in a 1000 yr rain, as taught by christians, I believe that Christ is appearing to everyone in their own order, from rezz day to the day that he hands over the kingdom to the father, and that "could be " a million years.
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
"is passed" [from death to life.]
G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.
Good post Molly!
Next question for anyone while I await some views on John 5:23-25 if anyone wishes to exchange thoughts.
Did Christ die in sin?
IE did he die sin death?
Blessings Barry
The wages of sin is death.
But Christ was without sin.
Thus, he was able to pay the ransom [wages] for us with his death.
He took on death for all of us.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2009, 04:23:30 PM
The wages of sin is death.
But Christ was without sin.
Thus, he was able to pay the ransom [wages] for us with his death.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Good point, if Christ did die sin death, then it would not have been that of his own (sins or sin).
But did He die in sins?
Did he die sin death?
Barry
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'sin death.' Is there a different type of death? I've personally always thought that Jesus could have lived forever in the body he was in. He was without sin, spot, or blemish. He was perfect. Nor could anyone lay a hand on him unless he allowed it.
He died for our sins.
His resurrected body is for those who have already died. But I wonder if those not yet dead will need a resurrected body.
Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2009, 04:33:55 PM
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'sin death.' Is there a different type of death? I've personally always thought that Jesus could have lived forever in the body he was in. He was without sin, spot, or blemish. He was perfect. Nor could anyone lay a hand on him unless he allowed it.
He died for our sins.
His resurrected body is for those who have already died. But I wonder if those not yet dead will need a resurrected body.
Really powerful verse Molly.
Here too:
1Pe 2:24 and He Himself
bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for
by His wounds you were healed.
So the next question could be (for anyone who would like to exchange ideas on it):
"When Christ was raised from the dead was this sin that he bore
in his body raised up with him?"
Don't think that I'm ignoring your other questions Molly, will try my best to touch on them shortly.
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
What did Jesus mean by "is passed from death unto life"? Not that a person would not eventually die, but that he had become a "son of God."
That is what man was created to become, to be made "in his image." [Gen. 1:26]
To receive the indwelling Holy Spirit is the first step.
John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.The Spirit is called the spirit of truth [John 14:17] which is the "earnest" and "seal" of God in our hearts. [2 Cor. 1:22] Those who have received the Spirit are compared to unborn children, who are nourished within their mother, in preparation for a "birth" to immortality, which only Christ has yet obtained. [1 Tim. 6:16] The church is the woman in Rev. 12, who is pictured as a mother who "pains to be delivered."
Rev 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Christians are described as "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [Rev. 12:17]
The saints who have died in the past, who await resurrection to immortality, are said to be "alive" to God. This was taught by Jesus, when he said of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob:
Matthew 22:31-33
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Although they await the resurrection, and are said to be "asleep" in their graves, as are all the saints who have died, to God they live, because God remembers them.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
It is probably a good idea to took at the above verses in the context of the verses immediately following.
John 5:27-29
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jesus said, "all that are in the graves" will hear his voice. And he refers to two kinds of resurrections. One is to life, the other to judgment. The resurrection to life is the hope of a Christian; Paul said, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." [Phil. 3:11] So it is something we need to seek, and strive for, as for a pearl of great price.
Jesus said,
Matthew 13:45-46
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. In the holy city in Rev. 21:21 each of the 12 gates is a single pearl, so to gain entry to the kingdom of God and the holy city is the "pearl of great price."
John 5:25 shows that Christ is the one who gives life, whether the Spirit of truth [John 14:17] and the "earnest" and "seal" of God now, or the immortality that is promised to the saints at the resurrection. It does not have to be "either-or," but just as a pregnant mother anticipates the birth of her child, the saints anticipate their future inheritance and being "born" to immortality.
The real "subject" in these verses is Christ as the life-giver, who has authority to execute judgment.
Doug
Hey Doug,
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Are these folks dead physically or in some other way?
I read your post was not really sure what you thought of verse 25.
Blessings, Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 10:11:57 PM
Hey Doug,
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Are these folks dead physically or in some other way?
I read your post was not really sure what you thought of verse 25.
Blessings, Barry
Jesus spoke of those in unbelief as being dead metaphorically. [Mat. 8:22] This could apply to "the dead" in John 5:25, and Jesus could also refer to those who had died physically in previous ages, as when he said "the dead," that includes all who had died up till then. So as I suggested, it does not have to mean one, or the other, exclusively. Why should it?
Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
:cloud9: I'm not Doug, but I'll put in my :2c: on this as well as the question in a later post about sin in His body.
Jesus said I only speak what I hear my FATHER speak, ie. a proceeding word from the Father's mouth. The Father, being a Spirit, said man shall not live by bread (letter understanding) alone but every Spirit breathed word/breath that proceeds from the Father's mouth.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
:cloud9: The written Word is LITERALLY a record of the defeat of DEATH by the LIFE of the SPIRIT contained as the hidden manna in that same Word, whose Spirit IS Christ. This LIFE of the Spirit is not revealed to us so we can go on our merry way in the way of all flesh that perishes, but is revealed for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of changing these vile bodies into one like His glorious body, ie. to experience and MANIFEST that Word THAT IS SPIRIT.
1Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen
asleep.
:cloud9: Let's look at the word in boldface there, asleep, which comes from a root word meaning, among other things;
1. to lie, ie., speaking of an INFANT, a CITY (multiple expressions) set upon a hill, of things like GRAIN/Word laid up together, things set in place, SET AS APPOINTED OF LAWS, appointed by God, a FOUNDATION, something that LIES in the power of the evil one.
:cloud9: When we hang onto the letter understanding of the Word we are as one lying ASLEEP like an INFANT, DEAD, GRAIN that has not been threshed to remove the chaff and so expose the PURE GRAIN underneath, the foundation, ie. waters BELOW the firmament, which is subject to or LIES in the power of the evil one, who comes not but to KILL, STEAL (our inheritance) and DESTROY (the vessels He wants to manifest thru).
This is why the CHILD differeth nothing from a SERVANT (the letter/waters below the firmament) because although it was provided 2000 years ago, we STILL have to grow and mature to APPREHEND that which we have been apprehended FOR.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the
heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; :cloud9: Notice there, that it says he is lord of all (positionally, but not experiential-ly), but because of IMMATURITY (and we ALL start there), he is no different than a servant, ie. one who still has the veil upon his face/nature, which ties in with the napkin or "veil' being upon Jesus's face, AS LONG AS HE WAS DEAD. Which is why here that napkin was related to the UNprofitable servant....
Luke 19:20 And another came , saying , Lord, behold , here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a
napkin: .
:cloud9: But the clue is in what happened to that veil they call a napkin in NT, ie. the part that covered the face. Face speaks of nature. If you are walking down a long road coming towards someone in the distance, you don't really know who it is until they get close enough for you to see their face.
This napkin, unlike the graveclothes which were just thrown down, was found in a particular manner, IN THE TOMB/GRAVE. It is not a coincidence that He called the Pharisees who wanted to hang onto the scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life, WHITED SEPULCHERS.
John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself
:cloud9: There was a Hebrew tradition between master/servant in that day that every Jewish boy knew, that involved how the servant tended the table of His master. If the master was done eating, the napkin would be crumpled up and thrown down, signaling He was done. But if he got up and left the napkin in order, it meant,
I'M COMING BACK.Now the significance to us is unmistakable, because the HEAD speaks of FIRSTFRUITS, and if He had done all He was going to do FIRSTFRUITS-wise THEN, He would have left the napkin crumpled up as the grave-clothes were, signifying the end. But He didn't; He rolled it up, because that speaks of those that are firstfruits to follow. He was a forerunner of them that go beyond the veil.
And as further proof, the words there translated "wrapped together" comes from a root word there meaning, "TO ROLL UP TOGETHER." Which is why we are as the tent or tabernacle He dwells in.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a TENT TO DWELL IN:
:cloud9: If you understand that all of natural creation (outer court realm) is as the waters below the firmament (the firmament it said was heaven), that this realm is itself as a "heaven", and that as such they are all subject to the letter/law as long as they live. So therefore we are also word as natural creation/letter, then you see how and why He subjected ALL under death (ROLLED UP), that all might live (OPENED ROLL= MANIFESTATION) at the appointed time of the Father.
So this is why when you jump ahead to Revelation, you read this.......
1 And I saw IN THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM THAT SAT ON THE THRONE A BOOK written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold , the Lion of * the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to
open the book (SCROLL), and to loose the seven seals thereof.
:cloud9: Two things here; note that the book is the hand of Him that sat on the throne. In a previous post, I pointed out that we were placed on the throne with Him, which is why rivers of living water come out of our bellies, because we have been seated by the baptism in the Spirit, in heavenly places with Him. And why the baptism in the Spirit is as a seal being opened.
Additionally, the word "BOOK" there is translated from a word that means "SCROLL".
Here, in Isaiah, He is proclaiming about the curse that came on all nations, the natural creation, that being death thru submission of the carnal mind, ie. to be carnally minded is death, our "scroll" rolled up.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near , ye nations, to hear ; and hearken , ye people: let the earth hear , and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved , and the heavens shall be
rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
:cloud9: It is repeated in Revelation here......
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
:cloud9: So now that you know that a rolled up scroll is us under the dominion of the carnal mind/subjected to the letter, in these carcasses of flesh, which is what we were lowered into, BUT SUBJECTED to IN HOPE, Christ in YOU (not Christ "out there" somewhere) the hope of glory, BECAUSE HE MUST COME BACK TO OPEN/UNROLL THE SCROLL/NAPKIN UPON HIS FIRSTFRUITS, because He was a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of THEM THAT SLEEP. Which is why this in Romans and Corinthians is worded the way it is.....
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH (not is already) for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth , why doth he yet hope for ?
1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING.
:cloud9: The "creature" ie. creation, is not waiting on us to DIE, men have been continuing to do that for the last 2000 years. They're waiting on the FIRSTFRUITS to LIVE. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 08, 2009, 11:09:43 PM
Here, in Isaiah, He is proclaiming about the curse that came on all nations, the natural creation, that being death thru submission of the carnal mind, ie. to be carnally minded is death, our "scroll" rolled up.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near , ye nations, to hear ; and hearken , ye people: let the earth hear , and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved , and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
:cloud9: It is repeated in Revelation here......
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
:cloud9: So now that you know that a rolled up scroll is us under the dominion of the carnal mind in these carcasses of flesh, which is what we were lowered into, BUT SUBJECTED but IN HOPE, Christ in YOU (not Christ "out there" somewhere) the hope of glory, BECAUSE HE MUST COME BACK TO OPEN/UNROLL THE SCROLL/NAPKIN UPON HIS FIRSTFRUITS, because He was a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of THEM THAT SLEEP. Which is why this in Romans and Corinthians is worded the way it is.....
Here is a different interpretation of the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The essential idea in Isaiah's prophecy is that when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles meet, preventing any further rotation.
(http://www.sentex.net/%7Etcc/scroll1.gif)
Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.In verse 5, this is telling us about God's "sword," which is symbolic of the scriptures. Paul called the scriptures a "sword."
Eph. 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:Similarly, the author of Hebrews wrote:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Isaiah said God's sword is "bathed in heaven." Perhaps, the sword is "steeped" or "soaked" in heaven, because this prophecy about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll demonstrates the effectiveness of God's word. Isaiah's prophecy has come to pass, precisely. In the ancient cosmology of the Greeks, and other nations, the heavens were thought to revolve around the earth, and the earth remained stationary at the center of the universe. This required the concept of a rigid spherical heaven, or
firmament. But after the scientific revolution, in the mid eighteenth century, the supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating, when it is rolled together.
The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology, and all the planetary spheres, have been forever abolished. The diurnal rotation was attributed to the earth, instead of heaven. This is an excellent vindication of God's word, but it was not recognized by the Bible scholars and critics, or by the clergy, who all missed this amazing fulfillment of prophecy!
Paul says the warfare of the church is not against flesh and blood. So who are the ones who are slain in Isaiah's prophecy? Are they people? The armies of the nations? Or are these enemies spiritual? The following verse depicts a spiritual warfare:
Rev. 12:7-8
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.Angels, or spirits, at war in heaven suggest this is not referring to a flesh and blood struggle. But the saints are involved in it.
Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.The saints need to overcome the deceptions of Satan, and discover the truth. Perhaps the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy are the doctrines and theories that Christ makes war against, by His word, and flawed interpretations of prophecy, that the saints eventually overcome. The "mountains" that are "melted with blood" are the battlegrounds. These mountains represent the promises of God to the church, and prophecies of the Bible. I suggest failed interpretations of prophecy, and delusions, are the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy.
The above interpretation may also apply to the fate of the hordes of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel's prophecy, in chapters 38 and 39. The armies of these invaders fight against each other, and God pleads with them with blood and pestilence. [Ezek. 38:21-22] They are rained upon, with fire, brimstone, an overflowing rain, and hailstones. [vs. 22] They fall on the mountains, and in the open field. [Ezek. 39:4-5] The smell of their corpses "stops the noses of the passengers." [vs. 11] Their corpses are buried over a period of 7 months, and their weapons are buried for 7 years. [vs. 9, 12] Their flesh is fed to the birds and beasts. [vs. 17-20]
Some dispensationalist prophecy interpreters say this describes the fate of the armies which will invade the modern state of Israel. According to them, Ezekiel's prophecy describes a military invasion by armies from Russia, Iran, and several other modern nations.
However, if God were really trying to kill a vast horde of people, why so many attempts? Would not pestilence be enough to kill them? Why the fire, and brimstone? And hailstones? And once they were killed, why so many conflicting ways of disposing of their corpses? According to Ezekiel, their corpses are (1) buried for 7 months; (2) lie unburied on the ground, causing a great stench; (3) eaten by birds and beasts.
Ezekiel's prophecy can be understood when the symbols are correctly interpreted. I suggest the slain armies, and the corpses, are metaphors, that represent delusions. The failed interpretation of dispensationalists, that claims the Gog-Magog invasion is a modern military invasion of the Jewish state by Russia and Iran etc., is an example of a delusion, and a flawed interpretation by an invading horde, seeking to profit by selling their books. The Jewish state in Palestine today is not a "land of unwalled villages." There is a prominent wall or fence over 700 km long and up to 8 m high. The wall thwarts their silly interpretation, and exposes those authors and preachers as "false prophets."
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 09, 2009, 12:17:16 AM
Here is a different interpretation of the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The essential idea in Isaiah's prophecy is that when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles meet, preventing any further rotation.
:cloud9: yes, and I can see how that too fits, because there is no real "rotation", things are on a holding pattern, until the manifestation of the sons of the God comes to fulfillment, which requires Him "opening" the scrolls and reading what is written within, ie. our new name/nature both spoken and revealed. Blessings...
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
Just read on a couple more verses. The answer seems clear. Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
Just read on a couple more verses. The answer seems clear. Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written
1Jn 2:18 Little children,
it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that
it is the last hour. hour:
G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
Quote from: Zeek on December 09, 2009, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
Just read on a couple more verses. The answer seems clear. Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
hour:
G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
:cloud9: And all humanity has been in the last hour for the last 2000 years, the last hour before we go to the cross (can ye not pray with me one hour) and "die", so that we might be raised again.
I especially liked the "latter end" meaning, as this in Job......since Job received double (double portion), same as the firstfruits (firstborn) sons.
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
Just read on a couple more verses. The answer seems clear. Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
Hey Reformer.
How in your view do verses 28 and 29 clarify verses 24 and 25?
In what way?
What death is in view in 25? How are they "dead"?
Is verse 25 a description of verse 24 or is it a change of subject of some sort?
Barry
Dear Barry... Though I may not necessarily agree with your beliefs, or point of view at this time, I just wanted to say that the way you present your views is to be commended. Just wanted to say thank you for being a good example of the way folks should converse with each other. I think you've added something positive to tentmaker just by your interactions and the way you treat others. Just wanted to tell you that.
Peace to ya,
sparrow
Quote from: Zeek on December 09, 2009, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 08, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Doug, could you please explain this scripture for me:
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Would you say up unto this point (that being verses 24 and 25) that overcoming physical death has been the topic, as you have previously suggested in your previous post?
Barry
Just read on a couple more verses. The answer seems clear. Although the mind of unbelief has popularly interpreted Scripture it doesn't dictate its meaning.
John 5:28-29 (CLT)...
28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
and approximately 25-30 years later, this is written
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
hour:
G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
last:
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
When then do you as a believer, receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul? Does it have anything to do with "literal/physical death" in your opinion??
Thanks Sparrow.
Actually I believe that I could have done much better.
The problem in relationships is often to do with personal expectation. My expectations were not met so I might feel let down or frustrated or what ever the reaction might be.
This has to do with our feelings of justice and rightness.
Such a focus or fixation can be a train wreck waiting to happen.
This it the beauty of love without condition. That acctually does not mean be a door mat and have no personal boundaries but it does mean stop expecting so much from others. After all maybe I don't meet the expectation of others all the time either if you know what I mean?
So over all then I really appreciate your input and at the same time do know that a few more steps into the right direction of love would help be of additional assistance in my interactions and communications.
When all is said and done we don't have control over others and perhaps should not try either, but we do have a say so on our own house so to speak.
Just to let you know, my participation in this thread will be slowly drawing to a close as other obligations are pressing in and this is very time consuming.
It has thus far truly been a learning experience for me and I hope others as well.
Barry
Good words, Barry... :HeartThrob: I agree with what you've said, brother.
QuoteWhen all is said and done we don't have control over others and perhaps should not try either, but we do have a say so on our own house so to speak.
Amen.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 07, 2009, 04:24:37 PM
Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:
the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth) is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.) But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.
Lee
Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)
It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.
The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.
Barry
As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away. Fulfillment does not equate with elimination. Scripture teaches God's Law Word is written in various modes of revelation. One is in nature. (Ps 19:1; Rm 1:19-21) An example concerning trees I excerpted from another writing to some friends follows...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God sows gold, silver and precious stones. These are gifts of His Spirit, His word and His nature in His imparted presence. What God gives may be improved, as gold is purified in fire and jewels are cut, polished and set.
What man sows is wood, hay and stubble. Those long generational things involving the span of a man's life or more are the trees. The first Psalm has us as the "trees of righteousness, the transplanting of the LORD" upon which the fire of God's manifesting presence falls. The wicked are the thorn bushes.
In the days of Eden it was trees of Life and of the knowledge of good and evil. In Noah's day it was "Gopher" wood (for the ark.) We come to Abraham and it was the Terebinth or Oaks of Mamre that represented God's people. [But, because you saw an oak, it should alternatively be considered that the oaks of Bashan are the of the opposers of Israel. The bulls of Bashan surrounded Jesus on the cross. [Ps 22]) When Israel came out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness it was the Acacia (for the Tabernacle.) When they first entered the land of promise it was the Palm. The married seeress that judged all Israel, Deborah, sat under a Palm tree. In the days of David it was the Cedar (of Lebannon.) The temple period was represented still by the Cedar, as well as the Olive, and Cypress. The next two are problematic. In the days of Elijah it was possibly Tamarind, and, at the point of (not Israel's, but) Judah's deportation to Babylon, Jeremiah 24 compares those God will destroy and those He will save by two baskets of figs, one good and one bad. In the restoration, the post-exilic period of outward humility but inward glory it was the Myrtle. The New Covenant is the Mustard and Olive. Conclusions?
The acacia, whose wood blackens with age, was used for the ark of the covenant, all lined and covered with gold. This has long been seen as the humanity Of Christ, filled and covered with God. The large ancient oak is our present generation, those "gentiles" round about who are of the "old man" of Col 3:9 that we have stripped off with it's practices, and there are many of them. "...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:9-11) There is a new generation by God Who is going to do a new thing. What is to be set before us are those things which are above, not the ancient (old) humanity. As a prerequisite to appearing with Him in the Glory we are to be disposed to those things not of the earth but the new, up over all, where Christ sits in the right of God. (cp., Col 3:1-4)
:cloud9: Thanks for this reFORMer........ :thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 04:49:44 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:16:44 PM
Types and figures have passed away.
Barry
As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away.
Indeed.
The pascal Lamb of the Jews remains a type of Jesus.
Abraham's servant seeking a bride for Isaac is a type of the Holy Spirit.
The brazen serpent in the wilderness is a type of Jesus crucified.
Egypt and Sodom remain types of the sin and bondage of the world, from which God's people have escaped.
Jerusalem continues to be a type of the bride of Christ, the church.
Ancient Babylon remains a type of worldly civilization.
The sun continues to be a type of the gospel.
A woman in heaven, clothed with the sun, is a type of the church.
The Jerusalem temple remains a type of the church.
The sabbath day is a type of eternal "rest" of a Christian.
Etc., etc.
Doug
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
Quote from: CardinalI'm not Doug, but I'll put in my on this as well as the question in a later post about sin in His body.
for mine - Such a good Word to go left almost unnoticed.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 09, 2009, 04:49:44 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 07, 2009, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 07, 2009, 04:24:37 PM
Berry, I believe that the end of the world did come for those people standing there and people today IF you "see" it this way: :HeartThrob:
the end comes when one comes to the understanding that they are a new creation IN Christ and the old (separation from God, man dealing with God through another Priest on earth) is passed away, and understands that ALL NOW deals with God Through Revelation (Mat.16:17) one on one. Only one middle Man, God's Anointed. All are IN Christ NOW, just wake up and see and you are Alive, (some slang-born-again, regenerated, etc.) But remember this, every person is awaken at God's time table, not at an alter call, confession, etc.
Lee
Yes Lee,
I understand your view. At least fundamentally I think.
That is also why you are free between your ears. :)
It seems that you can put the doctrines of transition behind you and simply accepted your present position. And it is in this acceptance that you and I grow and mature.
The end was not an end to humanity, but a new beginning.
Types and figures have passed away.
Barry
As long as the world of "nature" exists types and figures have not passed away. Fulfillment does not equate with elimination. Scripture teaches God's Law Word is written in various modes of revelation. One is in nature. (Ps 19:1; Rm 1:19-21) An example concerning trees I excerpted from another writing to some friends follows...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God sows gold, silver and precious stones. These are gifts of His Spirit, His word and His nature in His imparted presence. What God gives may be improved, as gold is purified in fire and jewels are cut, polished and set.
What man sows is wood, hay and stubble. Those long generational things involving the span of a man's life or more are the trees. The first Psalm has us as the "trees of righteousness, the transplanting of the LORD" upon which the fire of God's manifesting presence falls. The wicked are the thorn bushes.
In the days of Eden it was trees of Life and of the knowledge of good and evil. In Noah's day it was "Gopher" wood (for the ark.) We come to Abraham and it was the Terebinth or Oaks of Mamre that represented God's people. [But, because you saw an oak, it should alternatively be considered that the oaks of Bashan are the of the opposers of Israel. The bulls of Bashan surrounded Jesus on the cross. [Ps 22]) When Israel came out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness it was the Acacia (for the Tabernacle.) When they first entered the land of promise it was the Palm. The married seeress that judged all Israel, Deborah, sat under a Palm tree. In the days of David it was the Cedar (of Lebannon.) The temple period was represented still by the Cedar, as well as the Olive, and Cypress. The next two are problematic. In the days of Elijah it was possibly Tamarind, and, at the point of (not Israel's, but) Judah's deportation to Babylon, Jeremiah 24 compares those God will destroy and those He will save by two baskets of figs, one good and one bad. In the restoration, the post-exilic period of outward humility but inward glory it was the Myrtle. The New Covenant is the Mustard and Olive. Conclusions?
The acacia, whose wood blackens with age, was used for the ark of the covenant, all lined and covered with gold. This has long been seen as the humanity Of Christ, filled and covered with God. The large ancient oak is our present generation, those "gentiles" round about who are of the "old man" of Col 3:9 that we have stripped off with it's practices, and there are many of them. "...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:9-11) There is a new generation by God Who is going to do a new thing. What is to be set before us are those things which are above, not the ancient (old) humanity. As a prerequisite to appearing with Him in the Glory we are to be disposed to those things not of the earth but the new, up over all, where Christ sits in the right of God. (cp., Col 3:1-4)
That was an excelent post Reformer.
You have effectively trased down to at least one of the sourses of the foundemental difference that exists between our understandings of scripture.
You cannot have biblical time restraits or the "end" because you don't see the end around you. It's obvious that the natural exists around you so the bible could not be speaking of the end.
There is a covenantal creation that is not defined by the physical elements.
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors
until the time appointed of the father. Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children,
were in bondage under the elements of the world: Neither they nor us were ever under bondage to physical creation.
On the contrary we are wonderfully made and the Universe is a woderful creation.
Gal 4:9 But now,
after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God,
how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Gal 4:17
They zealously affect you, [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire
to be under the law,
do ye not hear the law? Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory:
for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to
Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
It is then impossible to accept that the Jerusalem
that then was is no more.
Because covenant creation is see to be physical creation or Universal creation.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to
make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised,
that they may glory in your flesh.
In the flesh is not the inherent status of the physical. "In the flesh" is the inherent status of an independent human potential.
This imo is the fatal flaw of interpretation which is derived from a physical verses spiritual dichotomy. Wherein the physical is seen to be anti-spiritual. Itself only a biblical "type".
Wherein humanity is inherently condemned by token of the very environment of God's creation. Which of course is "very good".
The
presumption then is that God had no real agenda for humanity itself. Humanity has to hope because humanity is inherently bound to a world of types. The world really cannot become a better place and no real lasting improvements can be had because there is inherently no potential within for that to happen.
Not that such a potential would exist independently of God but that God will do nothing with it because it is but a type and but a figure. The conclusion then is that Humanity has no hope because God clearly has no intention of ever doing anything with humanity.
There is clearly a micro cosmos of "covenant creation":
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand,
that I may plant the heavens,
and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
And it is this that Paul focuses on in Romans chapter 1.
Rom 1:16 For
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed
from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The subject matter is what has been revealed "from faith to faith". Hebrews chapter 11 is a prime example of "faith to faith". Faith as recorded in what is written and their faith then in their time. From figures to fulfillment.
This is what Paul himself focuses on in the coming chapters. The faith of Abraham and other and their responce to the "faith of Christ Jesus". Paul goes from "faith" to "faith".
The subject matter is what has been
revealed in what has been written concerning covenant creation.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
He is very clearly I might add, speaking to those who "knew" better about idols as God had revealed it to them.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God,
they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 And
changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. This is not the peoples of none covenant creation whom God had "winked at":
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:Paul is speaking about the people of covenant creation who:
"God hath shewed [it] unto"
"neither were thankful"
"when they knew God"
thus, "
changed the glory of the uncorruptible God"
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie"
whom God then, "gave them up"
"as they did not like to
retain God in [their] knowledge"
"covenantbreakers"
Because the invisible things of God which were manifest in the visible things of "old covenant creation" being types and figures of good things to come.
The subject matter is not that Adam brought the universe into a state of entropy!!! The subject matter is not how the whole of God's tent that He stretched out as a tent to dwell in got messed up by Adam and now he has to destroy it all.
All things which people are willing to believe in their attempt to harmonize a philosophy of physical verses spiritual.
The amount of personal subjectivity needed in the interpretation of scripture to attain to a harmony based upon a physical verses spiritual dichotomy.
Now this does not say that the physical creation has nothing to say about God. I know that. It's just not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
Types and figures are part of old covenant creation as defined in the scriptures, and are not to be defined by the physical creation.
Are we merely physical beings? Of course not, for Man shall not live by bread alone.
By the same token "abundance of life" is not defined by post-mortem continuity.
And the eternal life that is spoken of in the scriptures
is believing. That is what it is.
This imo bears repeating:
As long as one is stuck in types and figures then one cannot arrive at the "perfect" on a personal experiential level (between the ears).
The perfect is the perfect knowledge of how we are known. How we are known is in love without condition. The partial passes away.
The historically fulfilled revelation of love without condition is the end of types and figures which were there as a school master. They are not defined by the physical but rather in the independent human potential which finds its limits in the natural.
With men nothing is possible, with God all things are possible.
The Jerusalem that the scriptures speak of ended. The temple that the scriptures speak of ended. Making everything new is a new beginning, not the same old whops and twists and hurdles that the transition of the ages embodied.
There is a "covenant earth" in scripture. It is the independent human potential within the precedence of old covenant types and figures that existed in both the absence of and in view of the coming historical revelation of love without condition.
The end is every bit as historical
as the cross. My conclusion is that you have an historical cross but you do not have an historical end.
Instead an immortalized Adam,
An end that never ends.
A old temple that still has standing.
An old Jerusalem that then was and still stands either forever or until the end of the Universe that God created.
Animal sacrifices that are still valid in the precedence of types and figures that still stand.
A levitical priesthood that then still exists.
A terminal generation under the law which never ends which means the law still stands.
A resurrection out of the physical instead of out of our independence.
And so on and so on.
Now it should be obvious to you that none of this makes any sense to me whatsoever. And I mean from any and all angles that I've looked at it.
Now if it makes sense to you then I actually have no criticism of it. Why criticize what someone believes in. It is there belief. And that is your business not mine.
In the end all that we can do is communicate with each other what we ourselves see. And hopefully do so always the while, loving each other. God stands so very far above any measure that we would and thus should not use either toward or against each other.
And that actually is the only thing I'm interested in getting at. And that imo is compatible with my present understanding of eschatology. My interest is not eschatology. It is love without condition.
As a friend of mine recently said, "It's not that we have grasped God, but that God has grasped us through Christ".
That is my stance.
Are we going to agree anytime soon? I doubt it. Do we have to? I doubt it!
Love ya Barry
Quote from: sparrow on December 09, 2009, 07:17:56 AM
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
:cloud9: You know when you love someone even in the natural you find yourself over time liking the things they like, and disliking the things they dislike. For me, it was reading Proverbs chapter 1 for the first time early in my walk, after a dream I had about someone else, that helped to turn my already present desire to know Him intimately and to understand His principles, into a deeper study of the Word. Loving "foreign" languages probably helped, too. But that's just me. Blessings....
Quote from: sparrow on December 09, 2009, 07:17:56 AM
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 09, 2009, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: sparrow on December 09, 2009, 07:17:56 AM
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
:cloud9: You know when you love someone even in the natural you find yourself over time liking the things they like, and disliking the things they dislike. For me, it was reading Proverbs chapter 1 for the first time early in my walk, after a dream I had about someone else, that helped to turn my already present desire to know Him intimately and to understand His principles, into a deeper study of the Word. Loving "foreign" languages probably helped, too. But that's just me. Blessings....
Hi there Cardinal... I don't think you understand what I was saying. No big deal. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 12:19:35 AM
Quote from: sparrow on December 09, 2009, 07:17:56 AM
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.
Hey there,
That doesn't make sense to me.
If all loved each other unconditionally... then all would finally reflect God's love.
We would all FINALLY have gotten through His refiner's fire so that we are a mirror finish and reflect HIM.
peace.
No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.
Quote from: sparrow on December 10, 2009, 02:20:18 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 12:19:35 AM
Quote from: sparrow on December 09, 2009, 07:17:56 AM
Perhaps now though... all that is really needed is the gospel... God loves each of us.
Isn't that really the main thing mankind needs to know... needs to understand?
Why spend so much time with the other "stuff"?
I wonder about this.
Are people starving...
and should we truly just be handing out loaves of bread?
The only REAL actual problem in this world is that people are walking in darkness not understanding how much their Creator loves them.
Well, like I said... these are things I think about and wonder about and ponder.
Sometimes I get sucked into endless conversations and I step outside of it and look at it and think..."what was the purpose of that anyway?"
just thinking out loud.
This isn't directed to anyone.
Just thoughts that run through my mind.
peace..
Hi Sparrow,
The more to it is that we need the fullness of Christ without measure. Even if we did all love each other unconditionally we would simply be loving each other to death.
Hey there,
That doesn't make sense to me.
If all loved each other unconditionally... then all would finally reflect God's love.
We would all FINALLY have gotten through His refiner's fire so that we are a mirror finish and reflect HIM.
peace.
And even if we could bring the generations to LOVE, we would still produce death. People are born and then die. Only the Spirit kills death. Not our willingness to love others.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 02:39:33 AM
No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.
Who said anything about doing this on our own volition??
I am talking about HIM working THROUGH us.
But how is that truly happening if everyone is so busy endlessly debating all day about stuff that perhaps isn't as important as we think it is.
That was my whole point behind my original post.
Well, perhaps it is very important to others and that you may not need the milk of the Word as Paul said. Many need to move on to the meat of the story.
Quote from: sparrow on December 10, 2009, 02:47:23 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 02:39:33 AM
No Sparrow,
It is simply not possible for humanity to continually love others more than self.
And God made it so by giving us a self-preservation spirit that must be bust.
Jesus the Lord Man had to be broken to share the ability of His Spirit.
We simply can not do this on our own volition.
Who said anything about doing this on our own volition??
I am talking about HIM working THROUGH us.
But how is that truly happening if everyone is so busy endlessly debating all day about stuff that perhaps isn't as important as we think it is.
That was my whole point behind my original post.
This is the era of Pentecost..God is simply Not saving all SOULS within this age...maybe that why Paul mentions Creation Groans, and NOT JUST SONS ... awaiting the Manifestation of HIS SONS... for mine - Romans 8 sums it up well..isnt it HIM who drags Men Unto HIM, we all begin as babes and progress , lest Paul would have said
just Believe, your now mature and Ill see you when we receive our new bodies.
Its His work and Plan for the salvation for all...each in HIS appointed order
just my two pennies Sparrow
Thank you everyone concerned in allowing me the opportunity and honor to exchange ideas and thoughts with you all.
It has been very helpful to me to and hopefully I'm not the only one.
Have to get back to other things now.
God bless you all.
Barry
G'day mate.
Dont go to far Barry , come back soon :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 02:49:46 AM
Well, perhaps it is very important to others and that you may not need the milk of the Word as Paul said. Many need to move on to the meat of the story.
Beloved... Just say what you mean. What is this supposed to mean?
What is the "meat of the story"? Is it not LOVE?
Taffy... not sure what you mean by your post either in relation to what I am talking about.
Of course it is love, never to think otherwise. Outside of the face of Christ fulfilled; we are not capable of the true nature of the Word.
Of course it is love, [/quote]
That's not the way it seems with what you said earlier.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 04:27:39 AM
never to think otherwise. Outside of the face of Christ fulfilled; we are not capable of the true nature of the Word.
What is "the face of Christ fulfilled"? :dontknow: What does that mean to you?
What are you trying to say?
Well, of course, that's John 12.
"Lord, we want to become acquainted with Jesus."
Ok, beloved... I don't think we are on the same wavelength right now so to speak... because what you are saying is not making sense to me in reply to what I have said.
Perhaps we can talk again on a different day and perhaps we will understand each other a little better.
Peace to you.. and I hope you have a nice night.
I will, and I pray the same for you sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 10, 2009, 05:24:46 AM
I will, and I pray the same for you sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Thank you.. :HeartThrob: I appreciate that.
I AM sure you do.
:cloud9: Just a "few" comments here, Barry......sorry about the length, but I did cut it down, believe it or not.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
Wherein humanity is inherently condemned by token of the very environment of God's creation. Which of course is "very good".
:cloud9: Did you miss the part where after He said in Genesis it was very good, that He still destroyed it with water? It has nothing to do with the outer environment of man, but of man's flesh, as defined by the works of the flesh...
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
The presumption then is that God had no real agenda for humanity itself. Humanity has to hope because humanity is inherently bound to a world of types. The world really cannot become a better place and no real lasting improvements can be had because there is inherently no potential within for that to happen.
Not that such a potential would exist independently of God but that God will do nothing with it because it is but a type and but a figure. The conclusion then is that Humanity has no hope because God clearly has no intention of ever doing anything with humanity.
:cloud9: He said He would destroy it again, only with fire. Humanity in and of itself has no hope, our hope is in Christ and Christ in us, is our hope of glory. There is NOT ONE THING that humanity can do to improve themselves within or without, ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HOLY GOD, which is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT, add one cubit to our stature. Our stature is measured by CHRIST alone. Man always attempts to change himself from the outside in, thru his own efforts/works of flesh combined with the carnal mind, which is ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
God, on the other hand, changes us from the inside out, beginning with the inward anointing and then via the Holy Ghost (fire that destroys OUR WORLD) which does the works, and the mind of Christ, which is, among other things, our interpreter of the Word. This is why it says the Word is of no private interpretation, because the Spirit interprets that which It wrote. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, explains exactly how the field the good seed (Christ) is planted in, IS THE WORLD He's talking about.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
There is clearly a micro cosmos of "covenant creation":
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
:cloud9: And again, because the OT and it's types and shadows point to Christ and His works, the HG puts His words in our mouth, and covers us in the shadow of His hand.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up , take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak , neither do ye premeditate : but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
:cloud9: The word "covers" there in Isaiah means to clothe as for protection or conceal, which is why it says our life is HID in Christ, and the baptismal covering is what does that.
"Shadow" there in Isaiah comes from a root word that means to also to cover for protection and to "hover over", as in when the Spirit hovered over the face/nature of the waters in Genesis.
"Hand" there speaks of strength and works, and His hand IS as the HG who dispenses Himself in portions of HIMSELF to us on the day of Pentecost, if so be it, we have experienced Pentecost. In fact, what it is, is God with His hand, dug Himself a well in our earth and found water.
In short, He is doing a NEW CREATION, that only began in the first century, and culminates in a man who is not subject to death anymore. The purpose of the earnest coming upon the flesh man, is to PRESERVE him long enough for God to finish the work in him so that he can overcome the last enemy, which is death. To be carnally minded IS, or produces it's own nature, which IS DEATH.
His "hand", which is Christ in the measure of the 5 fold has been busy in these 2 days or 2000 years, "planting" heavens (mind of Christ) and laying foundations (restoring of the apostle and prophets, the foundation of the church) in preparation, of the "new earth" (the coming glorified bodies).
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
And it is this that Paul focuses on in Romans chapter 1.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The subject matter is what has been revealed "from faith to faith". Hebrews chapter 11 is a prime example of "faith to faith". Faith as recorded in what is written and their faith then in their time. From figures to fulfillment.
This is what Paul himself focuses on in the coming chapters. The faith of Abraham and other and their responce to the "faith of Christ Jesus". Paul goes from "faith" to "faith".
The subject matter is what has been revealed in what has been written concerning covenant creation.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
He is very clearly I might add, speaking to those who "knew" better about idols as God had revealed it to them.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
:cloud9: Actually, it is not JUST talking to the former Jews, as the previous portion you omitted shows.
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein * is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written * , The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against
all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him
from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
:cloud9: His wrath was not revealed from heaven against the Jews only, and this bolded above is not a comment about linear time, as in, from the creation or beginning of the world, these things about his power and Godhead are seen, but a better way to phrase it would be this.......
From the creation (itself) of the world, the invisible things of Him, even His eternal power and Godhead, are seen, and so all are without excuse, including the Greeks and Barbarians, which is why it says.....
Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psalms 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
:cloud9: In fact, if you go to Romans 1:25, you see that He is saying what was worshiped, which goes along with the first part talking about about those peoples that worshiped creatures or natural creation, which is what that word there means in Greek. They had also started worshiping times, days, and seasons, which a great many worship today still, ie. astrology, the worship of the creation again.
In short, they have faith in the thing created, but no faith in the Creator that created the thing. Not all were Jews to begin with, so their faith to faith was not one of OT types and shadows, to NT covenant, but one of creation to NT covenant. The creation also mirrors the tabernacle pattern which reveals His glory; it is as His "wife/helpmeet", for "she" came out of Him, and reflects His glory, just as the moon (lesser light) reflects the glory of the sun (greater light).
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the
creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
The amount of personal subjectivity needed in the interpretation of scripture to attain to a harmony based upon a physical verses spiritual dichotomy.
Now this does not say that the physical creation has nothing to say about God. I know that. It's just not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
Types and figures are part of old covenant creation as defined in the scriptures, and are not to be defined by the physical creation.
Are we merely physical beings? Of course not, for Man shall not live by bread alone.
By the same token "abundance of life" is not defined by post-mortem continuity.
And the eternal life that is spoken of in the scriptures is believing. That is what it is.
:cloud9: And again, what are you believing FOR?
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
:cloud9: Notice that this was written to the SAVED church of the Hebrews. Again, we are saved, spirit (outer court), soul (inner court), and BODY (Holy of Holies).
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our BODY. :cloud9: Notice that these are saved (Passover/outer court), have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Pentecost/inner court), yet they are STILL waiting for something, and they plainly state what that is.
1Cor. 15: 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot * inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold , I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all * sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. :cloud9: Notice that there are two groups of people here. (1)Those that are literally dead/corruptible and in a grave, and (2)those that are literally mortal. Those that are literally dead/corruptible shall put on incorruption, AND those that are literally MORTAL shall be CHANGED to put on immortality. It does not say those that are mortal, DIE, and THEN put on immortality.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 09, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
This imo bears repeating:
As long as one is stuck in types and figures then one cannot arrive at the "perfect" on a personal experiential level (between the ears).
:cloud9: The perfect is not arrived at between the ears. Even if you have all the doctrines down to a "T", God the Father still has to call you beyond the veil. It is set up that way, so that no man can steal His glory and say they did it.
Knowing ABOUT His love by mere mental assent from doctrines and posturing to perform it thru the direction of the carnal mind which is death, is NOT the same as BECOMING His love incarnate, which is His ultimate goal, ie. a many-membered body of Christ in our "earth" that is MANIFESTED/REVEALED, that has overcome the last enemy.
The carnal mind's ideas on what love is, are contaminated because to be carnally minded IS death, and under the types and shadows you want to do away with BEFORE they have fulfilled their perfect objective of tutoring you into perfection by the direction of the Spirit, if a priest came in contact with a dead body he was unclean for 7 days.
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
The laws that went along WITH that tabernacle, likewise speak of heavenly things. Like it or not, the "perfection between the ears", makes us unclean, until the hand of the Spirit passes over us 7 times or fulfilled 7 days of the Lord, a day being like a 1000 years. That there is still a priestly nation, though a spiritual one is spoken of here.....
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Perfection is found ONLY in Christ (as in mortality being swallowed up of immortality), who is the 7th day, of no part darkness. Adam, who died, is the "head" of a many membered body on the earth, who made us "unclean" by reason of "touching" ie. being one with that body.
This is why John was beheaded, and also why death reigned until or up to the end of the covenant of Moses, because the new covenant offers us the the possibility of a new Head. And if a new head, then the body MUST follow suit, or He is a live head on a dead body. Which is why He said He had no where to put His head, but the foxes (carnal minds) have holes (us).
Numbers 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
As I said, Adam is still very much "alive". His body is not relegated to the past.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
We are in the 7th day from Adam, and the 3rd day from Christ. Christ said, tell Herod that fox.......in the 3rd day, I will be perfected. We know He was not referring to Himself only as the Head of a new creation man on the horizon of God's timetable, but also to a perfected body.
Herod the fox, is a type of the carnal mind that steals the "grapes" of His people that are called to be crushed to produce the new wine of His Kingdom. He does this, by offering them a false feast of tabernacles in I Kings 29.
1Kings 29:31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. 32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar.
:cloud9: The feast there that is being done, wrong method, wrong place, and at the wrong time (a month too late), by the evil king Jeroboam (another type of the carnal minds of men) who devised it in his own heart (mind) to keep the people from returning to the house of David, was the feast of Tabernacles.
Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn , and he will heal us; he hath smitten , and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up , and we shall live in his sight. 3 Then shall we know , if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
:cloud9: You can't return to a place you've never been before. We walked with Him in the cool of the day before, and we shall do so again. Blessings....
Wonderful Cardinal.
Thanks for sharing A MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN THE PLAN OF GOD.
SAVING ALL THROUGH THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS IN CHRIST JESUS.
Hey Cardinal.
A few very quick points.
Quote:
Did you miss the part where after He said in Genesis it was very good, that He still destroyed it with water? It has nothing to do with the outer environment of man, but of man's flesh, as defined by the works of the flesh...
End Quote.
Imo not the point.
It was that "world of the ungodly" that was destroyed, not the universe not humanity.
These are covenantal statements and must be understood covenantally.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly
Are you saying that your position is that what God called "very good" is not still here?
Quote:
He said He would destroy it again, only with fire. Humanity in and of itself has no hope, our hope is in Christ and Christ in us, is our hope of glory. There is NOT ONE THING that humanity can do to improve themselves within or without, ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HOLY GOD, which is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT, add one cubit to our stature. Our stature is measured by CHRIST alone. Man always attempts to change himself from the outside in, thru his own efforts/works of flesh combined with the carnal mind, which is ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
God, on the other hand, changes us from the inside out, beginning with the inward anointing and then via the Holy Ghost (fire that destroys OUR WORLD) which does the works, and the mind of Christ, which is, among other things, our interpreter of the Word. This is why it says the Word is of no private interpretation, because the Spirit interprets that which It wrote. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, explains exactly how the field the good seed (Christ) is planted in, IS THE WORLD He's talking about.
End quote.
So God can change one person at a time He just cannot change the world? Interesting that He has those limits in place.
The wheat and the tares is about the old covenant world the covenant earth that was seeded.
What NO ONE is going to get out of is that Jesus said that "all nations" and the "whole world" would have the gospel preached to them and then the END would come. Paul said that that had ALREADY BEEN DONE when he wrote his epistles. That world was not the globe that you are claiming it is. And there is nothing that any one can say to get out of this very clear problem. And this then changes presumed interpretation of "world" in Matthew chapter 13. It bears repeating. NO ONE is getting out of this clear biblical fact. IMO it is present and should be accounted for.
Only in reading into the scriptures one's own meanings and one's own agenda can we make the "world" of Matthew chapter 13 our present global world.
I wrote about this before, I don't think anyone answered.
Quote:
Actually, it is not JUST talking to the former Jews, as the previous portion you omitted shows.
End quote.
Beside the point imo.
It doesn't have to be only the Jews that Paul was then preaching the gospel too within the confines of the world that he is speaking of. As that was the present events that were then happening.
This does not change that Paul is then from verses 18-32 speaking of the first "faith" time frame in his "faith to faith" points. IE, 18-32 is past events not his then present events.
Preaching the gospel to the gentiles was present events.
The covenant breakers he is talking about is the old covenant people not the whole world as you seem to be thinking of and not universal creation either. It is covenant creation not universal creation that Paul is addressing. This is imo abundantly clear in the context. He is clearly speaking of people that were in covenant and thus then knew God and knew what to do and what not to do.
Unless one can go through the context and explain how everyone in the global world had been covenant breakers then the point imo is quite clear.
The "elements of the world" that Paul wrote of was the law and the prophets.
The basic premise that I'm reading seems to be that God created the Universe for no other reason than this tiny little speck called earth. I thought he created it as a tent to dwell in. I think we always think we are at the very center of everything until we are proven wrong once again and then we go onto the next "center of the Universe" thinking until that one is proven wrong. But that's jmo.
Blessing to you
Barry
Thank you Barry, well spoken, I could go much deeper into this thinking, but a good part of the Body would even be more lost in the light that they do have.
Lee
This little speck called Earth is where the Lord chose fit to bear His only begotten Son called God With Us.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 11, 2009, 11:51:08 PM
This little speck called Earth is where the Lord chose fit to bear His only begotten Son called God With Us.
Of course.
Not at all claiming to the contrary.
A question though:
If there are sentient beings in one of the other 200 billion Galaxies would they have to come here to hear the Gospel?
Of course that opens another can of worms so to speak and is off topic a little but the point is that we see ourselves at the center of everything. I think it's the wrong perspective.
And I belive it is at the heart of why we have trouble with audience relevance.
Barry
Well, he does seem
fond of us despite the "others" that may be out there — somewhere!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk
WE are His portion and
He is OUR prize!
I personally would not mind others being out there.
I also believe that if there was, God would have a system for "their" salvation
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 11, 2009, 11:32:36 PM
Hey Cardinal.
A few very quick points.
Quote:
Did you miss the part where after He said in Genesis it was very good, that He still destroyed it with water? It has nothing to do with the outer environment of man, but of man's flesh, as defined by the works of the flesh...
End Quote.
Imo not the point.
It was that "world of the ungodly" that was destroyed, not the universe not humanity.
These are covenantal statements and must be understood covenantally.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly
Are you saying that your position is that what God called "very good" is not still here?
:cloud9: No, I'm saying He did what He said He would do, in that He is destroying the "world" He's talking about with fire of the Holy Ghost. Genesis is a pattern, the days are also times representing men, who up to the 7th day, are both darkness and light. Christ IS the 7th day, of no part darkness.
The firstfruits are to be consumed in Him, and the ark of the covenant bears this witness as the tablets of the law were covered over by the mercy seat, the nature/gold of which was refined 7 times. Love COVERS a multitude of sins. This also bears witness, that it's a work He's desiring to do in our flesh, not after we die (as a preference), and certainly not by "flying away" as 90% of the people in buildings believe.......
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Quote:
He said He would destroy it again, only with fire. Humanity in and of itself has no hope, our hope is in Christ and Christ in us, is our hope of glory. There is NOT ONE THING that humanity can do to improve themselves within or without, ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HOLY GOD, which is why it says we cannot BY TAKING THOUGHT, add one cubit to our stature. Our stature is measured by CHRIST alone. Man always attempts to change himself from the outside in, thru his own efforts/works of flesh combined with the carnal mind, which is ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
God, on the other hand, changes us from the inside out, beginning with the inward anointing and then via the Holy Ghost (fire that destroys OUR WORLD) which does the works, and the mind of Christ, which is, among other things, our interpreter of the Word. This is why it says the Word is of no private interpretation, because the Spirit interprets that which It wrote. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, explains exactly how the field the good seed (Christ) is planted in, IS THE WORLD He's talking about.
End quote.
So God can change one person at a time He just cannot change the world? Interesting that He has those limits in place.
:cloud9: Not really, as He always works thru a firstfruits principle.
The wheat and the tares is about the old covenant world the covenant earth that was seeded.
What NO ONE is going to get out of is that Jesus said that "all nations" and the "whole world" would have the gospel preached to them and then the END would come. Paul said that that had ALREADY BEEN DONE when he wrote his epistles. That world was not the globe that you are claiming it is. And there is nothing that any one can say to get out of this very clear problem. And this then changes presumed interpretation of "world" in Matthew chapter 13. It bears repeating. NO ONE is getting out of this clear biblical fact. IMO it is present and should be accounted for.
Only in reading into the scriptures one's own meanings and one's own agenda can we make the "world" of Matthew chapter 13 our present global world.
I wrote about this before, I don't think anyone answered.
:cloud9: You didn't hear me. I didn't say the global world was what He was talking about. Matt. 13 plainly tells us what the world is He's referring to ending, and it is the field in which the good seed is planted in.
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying , I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away , and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying , Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear , let him hear .
:cloud9:The Kingdom of a necessity is where the King is, and the King is in us, the Kingdom is in us, ie. the good seed was planted IN US. It is interesting to note that the word for "ankle" means "end of the world", in Hebrew. Not that hard to grasp that He might consider us a world/earth as Adam was taken from the dust of the earth.
Quote:
Actually, it is not JUST talking to the former Jews, as the previous portion you omitted shows.
End quote.
Beside the point imo.
It doesn't have to be only the Jews that Paul was then preaching the gospel too within the confines of the world that he is speaking of. As that was the present events that were then happening.
This does not change that Paul is then from verses 18-32 speaking of the first "faith" time frame in his "faith to faith" points. IE, 18-32 is past events not his then present events.
Preaching the gospel to the gentiles was present events.
The covenant breakers he is talking about is the old covenant people not the whole world as you seem to be thinking of and not universal creation either. It is covenant creation not universal creation that Paul is addressing. This is imo abundantly clear in the context. He is clearly speaking of people that were in covenant and thus then knew God and knew what to do and what not to do.
Unless one can go through the context and explain how everyone in the global world had been covenant breakers then the point imo is quite clear.
:cloud9:Really not that difficult if you consider generation curses that started with Adam's disobedience as the first priest of God. That he was shown priestly duties is evidenced by the fact his sons knew to offer a sacrifice. The covenant of Moses was not the only covenant God had with man. This is why all in Adam died, they were all concluded under judgment that He might have mercy on all.
There is only 2 men on the face of the earth right now; a many-membered body of Adam and many-membered body of Christ. This is shown in the day of atonement offering in which the head of the animal was cut off and separated from the body first, all skin removed, and then the body was cut in the joints (not a bone of His was broken), and all the pieces were to be placed on the altar without touching (that which every joint supplies is the HG), the head first.
They were not to TOUCH because the fire was to go between the pieces of the body, the head first. So essentially what is happening every time someone comes to the Lord and receives the baptism, is another piece of Adam is being cut off that it might be joined to Christ via the fire of the Holy Ghost baptism. Until this happens, Adam's conscience bears witness against him, which is how they know when they trespass without anyone telling them. That's why he's "dead" in sins and trespasses.
As for what they are, as I said before, just read Deut. 28 for a review of all the curses of God upon those that walk in the flesh, which is everyone that does not walk in the Spirit. It's not hard to see where we or our generations we're aware of, fall into those categories. In the tabernacle pattern, the outer court had ALL ISRAEL, including STRANGERS, which is why all were included. And these are whom He was talking about that had no excuse because they could see the things of the creation.
If you were in the outer court, when you looked up, there was no covering, so you saw a LITERAL everything, a literal sun, moon, and stars. And so that pattern rings true for people today, that have no covering of His Spirit, which is what the inner court realm of the spiritual priesthood represents. The inner court housed the priests, and they had the light of the candlestick to look to in the nighttime of their souls.
Additionally, the word for covenantbreakers, has as one of it's meanings, FAITHLESS. We are to have the faith of God, the perfection of which, comes thru the baptism in the Spirit, as when the tares are removed, then shall the righteous shine forth. The baptism consumes us in fire, and as long we release whatever it is He's dealing with, we suffer no loss, but like the 3 Hebrew children, only the bondages are burned.
THAT is the end of THIS WORLD, ie. everything in us has bowed the knee and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord. Those things that had ALL MEN in bondage are the elements of the world of the flesh of men. This is why what He did with the Jews is a type and shadow for us, because it is a macrocosm of the microcosm that we are.
The priests had to trim the wicks of the candle every day without fail. This is representative of the things rooted in our flesh that must be burned/cut off as an offering (carnal beastly natures). Failure to do this resulted in smoking up the room (dim vision) so that the priests could not see to minister.
The outer court dealt with sin that was visible in dealing with the carnal beastly natures, but the inner court is a deep work in the soul of man, which is why this realm is associated with the Holy Ghost, who searches out the HIDDEN things of the heart. Picking up your cross and following Him results in walking out this pattern. Following Him is following Him thru the compartments of the tabernacle, the witness of heavenly things, APPROPRIATING AND APPLYING those principles to yourself.
The "elements of the world" that Paul wrote of was the law and the prophets.
:cloud9:That word elements there is translated also as "rudiments" in this scripture. It's meaning also backs up what I said the part in Galatians was about, which was those who were/are trapped in idol worship of something in the creation. This Greek word is where we get our word stoic from and it was a PHILOSOPHY of abstinence to the desires of the flesh, by the WILL OF MAN, and not a cleansing of the root cause that only the Spirit of God can uproot. Which goes back to what I said, about how we cannot add to our stature one cubit, BY TAKING THOUGHT, only the Spirit can.
In that chapter here in Colosians, He is both talking about the Jews and the Gentiles, just as He was in Romans, and the OT covenant cannot be the world He is talking about because these things listed were not part of their "world", but of the "world" of the Gentiles, particularly his concern over the Greek philosophers.
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
stoy-khi'-on Noun Neuter
Definition
1. any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
1. i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry
:cloud9: That he is talking about Gentiles too, is plain, a little farther down in verse 13, which is......
Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The basic premise that I'm reading seems to be that God created the Universe for no other reason than this tiny little speck called earth. I thought he created it as a tent to dwell in. I think we always think we are at the very center of everything until we are proven wrong once again and then we go onto the next "center of the Universe" thinking until that one is proven wrong. But that's jmo.
:cloud9: Obviously since the earth and it's immediate surroundings is where He chose to reveal the glory of His Son and Himself plainly, I don't see why this comment has any bearing on anything. Personally, the only thing I see Him giving preeminence to, is the daystar arising in our hearts. Seems the sun arises really close to our "world". Blessings....
Blessing to you
Barry
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 12, 2009, 12:48:14 AM
Well, he does seem fond of us despite the "others" that may be out there — somewhere!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk
WE are His portion and He is OUR prize!
I commend the way these guys portray our transfiguration in an attic/upper room.
ALL OF A SUDDEN!
Oh saints!
Watch!
:thumbsup:Barry
:ok: Lee Damboise II
cast your crowns saints
Hey Cardinal,
Love you sis but must disagree.
Quote:
No, I'm saying He did what He said He would do, in that He is destroying the world He's talking about with fire of the Holy Ghost. Genesis is a pattern, the days are also times representing men, who up to the 7th day, are both darkness and light. Christ IS the 7th day, of no part darkness.
End quote.
Either you see that the "natural" that is fulfilled as covenantal or you see that it is physical. Decide which, and then we can communicate.
He did not destroy the "very good". That's my point, what was yours?
Christ did in NO WAY WHATSOEVER predict as pertaining to the END that the temple would be destroyed physically. The question is not its atomic structure. NOT AT ALL. The end of the age has nothing to do with what some here are calling for.
It is rather "not one stone shall be left upon another"
It's physicality is never the problem. It's having been built by hands is the problem.
Quote:
Not really, as He always works thru a firstfruits principle.
End quote.
Indeed and the first fruits were the first fruits of the general harvest.
And that very principle demands two things:
1) that the general harvest was of the same planting and thus eminent. And Pentecost was the time of the beginning of the firstfruits according to the Jewish calendar.
2) that the first were the very best of the whole harvest. When the very best was accepted the whole was accepted!
imo you are represent neither in your point of view. On the contrary you see all having to attain to the first fruits perfection in perpetuity. Wherein the self sacrifice is universal and not firstfuits.Quote:
You didn't hear me. I didn't say the global world was what He was talking about. Matt. 13 plainly tells us what the world is He's referring to ending, and it is the field in which the good seed is planted in.
End quote.
Imo the point is mute. The field is only that which it is planted in. The field is not us. The field is that which Paul and the other spread the gospel. Try to deal with my point concerning the limits of the then world that the gospel was preached within. As mentioned this is not going away as a real problem for the view which you seem to be purposing.
Quote:
The Kingdom of a necessity is where the King is, and the King is in us, the Kingdom is in us, ie. the good seed was planted IN US. It is interesting to note that the word for "ankle" means "end of the world", in Hebrew. Not that hard to grasp that He might consider us a world/earth as Adam was taken from the dust of the earth.
End quote.
Way, way too much subjective interpretation here imo. It is a reaction to traditional Christendom I realize that but it is imo just all over the place and yet no where.
The kingdom of God is Universal in nature. That was the warning to the old covenant people. Watch out the kingdom of heaven is coming!!!! You think because you are the covenant people that you are at the center of the Universe! No you are a micro cosmos and function as a mere catalyst to bring forth a revelation of God's unconditional love for all everywhere for all time.
Thus the form of that world was changed.
The kingdom is not within us but is everywhere and is "among us". Mistranslation on that verse. There is no verse that says the kingdom is within us.
Quote:
Really not that difficult if you consider generation curses that started with Adam's disobedience as the first priest of God. That he was shown priestly duties is evidenced by the fact his sons knew to offer a sacrifice. The covenant of Moses was not the only covenant God had with man. This is why all in Adam died, they were all concluded under judgment that He might have mercy on all.
There is only 2 men on the face of the earth right now; a many-membered body of Adam and many-membered body of Christ. This is shown in the day of atonement offering in which the head of the animal was cut off and separated from the body first, all skin removed, and then the body was cut in the joints (not a bone of His was broken), and all the pieces were to be placed on the altar without touching (that which every joint supplies is the HG), the head first.
They were not to TOUCH because the fire was to go between the pieces of the body, the head first. So essentially what is happening every time someone comes to the Lord and receives the baptism, is another piece of Adam is being cut off that it might be joined to Christ via the fire of the Holy Ghost baptism. Until this happens, Adam's conscience bears witness against him, which is how they know when they trespass without anyone telling them. That's why he's "dead" in sins and trespasses.
As for what they are, as I said before, just read Deut. 28 for a review of all the curses of God upon those that walk in the flesh, which is everyone that does not walk in the Spirit. It's not hard to see where we or our generations we're aware of, fall into those categories. In the tabernacle pattern, the outer court had ALL ISRAEL, including STRANGERS, which is why all were concluded. And these are whom He was talking about that had no excuse because they could see the things of the creation.
If you were in the outer court, when you looked up, there was no covering, so you saw a LITERAL everything, a literal sun, moon, and stars. And so that pattern rings true for people today, that have no covering of His Spirit, which is what the inner court realm of the spiritual priesthood represents. The inner court housed the priests, and they had the light of the candlestick to look to in the nighttime of their souls.
End quote.
Incorrect premise imo.
Death spread to all men through one covenant man. Even those who "sinned not" after that "likeness". Thus sin moved from COVENANT TO NONE COVENANT. Covenant was however the point. Christ is the second Adam. The last covenant man. And so none are under sin.
Otherwise please explain "likeness" in Romans 5: 14. Who are those who sinned after his likeness and those that did not??
There is imo a complete and utter failure here to understand even the basic points of covenant creation.
Quote:
That word elements there is translated also as "rudiments" in this scripture. It's meaning also backs up what I said the part in Galatians was about, which was those who were/are trapped in idol worship of something in the creation. This Greek word is where we get our word stoic from and it was a PHILOSOPHY of abstinence to the desires of the flesh, by the WILL OF MAN, and not a cleansing of the root cause that only the Spirit of God can uproot. Which goes back to what I said, about how we cannot add to our stature one cubit, BY TAKING THOUGHT, only the Spirit can.
In that chapter here in Colosians, He is both talking about the Jews and the Gentiles, just as He was in Romans, and the OT covenant cannot be the world He is talking about because these things listed were not part of their "world", but of the "world" of the Gentiles, particularly his concern over the Greek philosophers.
End quote.
Greek philosophy has nothing to do with Colossians. Shall we go through it verse by verse? Let me know.
Rather it is Paul that is addressing "Greeks" about Jewish philosophy of the Judaizers.
Look up elements! You will find nothing but the elements of the old covenant world every single time. Don't believe me, no problem bring up a verse and we will cover it.
Blessings to you
Barry
Hi Barry,
Well, your last post was well too long for me to read, so in the interest of the topic, do you believe that ALL will be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ The Lord Son of God who lives and reigns without end?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 12, 2009, 03:01:35 AM
Hi Barry,
Well, your last post was well too long for me to read, so in the interest of the topic, do you believe that ALL will be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ The Lord Son of God who lives and reigns without end?
I do not view salvation as a ticket to heaven.
That is one of the major differences.
I view salvation as for "this life". In the gospel of John eternal life
is believing.
First off salvation was coming out from under the law (from Adam). Freedom from sin conscience (under the prescience of old covenant types and figures). Look up "conscience" in Hebrews and see the meaning of the "perfection" in question.
Secondly, God has an agenda with creation at large for he is creator. He used covenant creation as a catalyst. Otherwise someone please explain to me why and how the gospel in the first century could have been preached to every creature as Paul said that it had?
God made everything new for ongoing history to continue.
Jesus did not come to start a new religion he came to end man's religion from a covenantal catalyst. Man wishes to attain to God. This is impossible. And it is not why we are here. AND THAT IS THE POINT. Rather it is God that has grasped man. And it is in this that we between our ears must accept. We are loved without condition.
It is this love that causes us to grow and mature and evolve.
In making everything new He continues his creative process.
We keep looking back at the transition of the ages and keep trying to fit in. That was never the point.
Barry
Hmmm... well, that was a — yes or no — question.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 12, 2009, 03:32:21 AM
Hmmm... well, that was a — yes or no — question.
Yes, everyone is saved because no one is under law.
This had nothing to do with getting to heaven. It had to do with bringing heaven to earth.
Barry
Heaven?
Does Jesus tell us about heaven?
Good night Beloved.
God bless you.
Tomorrow is another day for me at least.
Love Barry
A day is as a thousand years...
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 02:51:45 AM
Thus the form of that world was changed.
The kingdom is not within us but is everywhere and is "among us". Mistranslation on that verse. There is no verse that says the kingdom is within us.
God establishes His kingdom within us first, that He may then extend it through us into the rest of the world.
Luk 17:21 (AV) Neither 3761 shall they say 2046 , Lo 2400 here 5602! or 2228, lo 2400 there 1563! for 1063, behold 2400 ,
the kingdom 932 of God 2316 is 2076 within 1787 you 5216.Greek:
entosStrong's G1787
outline of Biblical usage:
1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
b) within you i.e. your soul
Luke 17:20-21 (Conc. Lit.)...
20 Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny.
21 Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo!
the kingdom of God is inside of you."
In the Greek "inside" (Lk 17:21, above) is
entos, which is, "in
pl."
It doesn't seem we could say King Jesus wasn't in The Kingdom or, if you prefer, that The Kingdom wasn't in Him. He said that Satan had nothing in Him. Nevertheless we see the devil manifesting all around Him in the days of His flesh. This was while Jesus said He could not spoil and lay waste to the devil's kingdom, as He did, if He hadn't bound the strong man. Yet after His ascension the devil seemed to continue manifesting well enough. Jesus taught The Kingdom was not here or there. "It cometh not with observation." He said it is within us. Certain ones of the "orthodox" denominations at that time wanted Jesus to say "when the kingdom of God is coming." He said it "is not coming with scrutiny. Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside you." Lk 17.20-21 (Concordant Literal Version) Yet some say the Kingdom is not until outwardly seen, that it is not until it is at an obvious location here or there. Seeking to maintain it is outward and of this world as well as still future, some have said that, "The kingdom of God is 'among' you..." is to be preferred. If we agree for the moment, let's go on to realize what that must mean. So then, where Jesus is in our midst, the kingdom of God is in our midst. If he was there with them and it meant the kingdom of God was with them, then if he's here with us the kingdom of God is here with us. He said "I will never leave or forsake you."
Here's another example of plural
en (Gk.) which is
entos (Gk.):
Most translations have "in" here:
Colossians 1:27 (Young's Lit.)
"...which is
Christ 'in' you, the hope of the glory..."
(and us in Christ is the glory revealed! Christ's entrance into us is portrayed in the feasts of Israel. Our entrance into Him is typified by the successive areas of the tabernacle.)
CLT doesn't us "in" here in the readers edition
Colossians 1:26-27 (Conc. Lit.)...
26 the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints,
27 to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is:
Christ 'among' you, the expectation of glory --
But look "in" up in thGreek-English Keyword Concordance (p.155) and you'll discover when "in" is a plural number it is translated with "among" in English.
Again, it is the Greek
entos, which means, "in
pl."
A plural doesn't remove in any way the original meaning of a word just because it makes poor English. Because the plural adjective "dailies" is spelled differently it would open one to justified ridicule to assert the meaning is not determined by it's noun "day."
There are many references of God dwelling in us (one place says, "by faith.") There is nowhere God is that He is not getting His own way. Yet, for me it was a significant revelation that the kingdom of God is just God. It's different than other kingdoms that function in Gentile authority, as Samuel warned Israel concerning, described the king they wanted like other nations would appoint a bureachracy of, "Captains of 50's,a and captains of 100's." God said they had rejected God to rule over them.
To call Him "Emanuel" means the Kingdom of God has come. To be taught about the kingdom, surely Jesus would be most reliable! "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" John 18:36 (ASV) For someone to continue repeating that the reign of God is in no one now and no one is in it now because it is not until it is of this world is to stand in direct contradiction of Jesus and the evidence attesting to the reality of that kingdom in the lives of those following Jesus and believeing His words for a couple thousand years.
Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence: Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God. Mark 10:24-27 (ASV) If it is true for you that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit. The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people. You may have this work of God in you too.
Some Roman Catholics I've read, how officially representative of their sect they are I'm not certain, as well as some who're more extreme in their conclusions drawn from dispensational eschatology hold that only when the dimension of the physical, the same in which is food and drink for our body, is inescapably subjugated planet-wide to the manifest presence of God, then His kingdom has come. This obviously contradicts Scripture saying, "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." Romans 14:17 "...the kingdom of God is inside you..." Lk 17.21 is a clue to how it is accomplished. With no king there's no kingdom. Those things "in" the Holy Spirit come forth within us when He is within us. Of course, it is tautologous to say in the Holy Spirit is God's reign for God rules in God. In 2 Pet 1.3-11 "...the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." is more fully explained, particulars of inner qualities of character built one upon another that this "entrance" may, "...be richly supplied unto you." (ASV) This doesn't leave us any room for postponement. The commandment is, "...giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Your brother James Rohde
(There's more, but I shortened it.)
For so
"an entrance"
G1529
εἴσοδος
eisodos
ice'-od-os
From G1519 and G3598; an entrance (literally or figuratively): - coming, enter (-ing) in (to).
G3598
ὁδός
hodos
hod-os'
Apparently a primary word; a road; by implication a progress (the route, act or distance); figuratively a mode or means: - journey, (high-) way.
"shall be ministered unto" [you]
G2023
ἐπιχορηγέω
epichorēgeō
ep-ee-khor-ayg-eh'-o
From G1909 and G5524; to furnish besides, that is, fully supply, (figuratively) aid or contribute: - add, minister (nourishment, unto).
abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Isaiah 35:8
And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Barry, Thanks from within. Lee
:dsunny: :banana: :popout:
Hey James.
Thanks for the input!
Quote emphasis mine:
1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
End quote.
"in the midst of you" is my understanding of that text.
RSV correctly gets the context at hand. Which is actually throughout Luke.
Luk 17:18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?"
Luk 17:19 And he said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well."
Luk 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
Was the kingdom of God then within the Pharisees who were seeking a sign even though signs were more than abundant and Christ had just performed one?
They never had enough signs because the signs were never according to their expectations. So the signs were never enough. In this sense then no other sign (fundamental sign) would be given them but the sign of Jonah!
3 days in the grave.
"Destroy this temple and in three days..."
Or was the kingdom of God in his mists though he could not see it?
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Luk 9:11 And the people, when they knew [it], followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Jesus is certainly not claiming that the kingdom of God was within him. Because it was not. He was saying the it was in front of him and he could not see it.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
The coming kingdom of God that John the Baptist and Jesus said was at hand was a threat to these people.
It first, in the firstfruits expressed itself as "Christ in them" that being in the firstfruits. But the conclusion is nothing short of Universal in scope.
This was the problem that the old covenant man then had. He was about to end.
This was the message of John the baptist in Matthew and Luke chapter 3. It was the message throughout the Gospels and throughout the epistles.
The old covenant was about to end not only for the believer but for the unbeliever.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The message always was, lose your soul now while you can or you will lose it catastrophically in the end of the age.
The old covenant man is no more. There are no valid types and figure to support such a man. A revelation of the unconditional love a God has been given.
Blessings Barry
Berry, Thy Kingdom Come is for the People of God before His Rezz Day,
Heaven was a thing for the later Peoples of God, The Graced people. You choose who those people are, The promises were never to go to Heaven, the promises were that the Kingdom would come....
In the new age/eon peoples, It was all about The Heaven Issue...
I really have to get ready to do a strip job, (Wax/Strip) for those that think evil.
Be back later. Love Lee
Quote from: BarryHey James.
Thanks for the input!
Quote emphasis mine:
1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
End quote.
"in the midst of you" is my understanding of that text.
Just to be clear, are you denying
Christ in you, the hope of glory?
Because my reading of 'in the midst of you[singular]" is the same as the tree of life in the midst of the garden or the ark in the midst of the tent of David--that is, in the middle, in the holiest place.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
This was the problem that the old covenant man then had. He was about to end.
This was the message of John the baptist in Matthew and Luke chapter 3. It was the message throughout the Gospels and throughout the epistles.
The old covenant was about to end not only for the believer but for the unbeliever.
What was it that ended? The Mosaic system of ritual sacrifices. That is what ended in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. And this was a fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The "covenant" which is confirmed by Jesus, is the promise made to Abraham, that Daniel referred to in Dan. 9:4, when he said,
Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;This is the covenant that Jesus confirms with his saints, as Zacharias the father of John the Baptist said.
Luke 1:66-75
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.The covenant he referred to was not the sacrificial system, but "the oath which he sware to our father Abraham." This did not pass away in 70 AD. It is what Paul called the gospel, Gal. 3:8
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The message always was, lose your soul now while you can or you will lose it catastrophically in the end of the age.
The old covenant man is no more. There are no valid types and figure to support such a man. A revelation of the unconditional love a God has been given.
Blessings Barry
Those who follow Jesus Christ are the ones with whom he confirms his covenant. He confirms it for one week, which is a prophetic week, or "seven times," that began when Jesus began his ministry, or perhaps it was when John began to preach. It is the last "seven times" of Lev. 26. This is the covenant he still confirms with his saints today. Daniel said the sacrifice and the oblation would cease "in the midst of the week" which was 70 AD. It was not the end of the week. So the last half-week is not a literal three years and a half. It is the "time, times and a half" in which the antichrist, the little horn of Dan. 7, dominates the saints. He speaks great words against the most high, and has "eyes like the eyes of a man," or has a human viewpoint, which contrasts with a divine viewpoint.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.This antichrist figure thinks "to change times and laws." It is against the holy covenant!
Scripture does not say the covenant will end. It says God will "remember" his covenant. And he even
revives his covenant, with his new covenant!
Deut. 4:31
He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them.
Lev. 26:42
Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Ezek. 36:28
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer. 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Rom. 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Heb. 8:10, 12
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ...
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb. 10:16-17
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Jesus said,
Mat. 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.Doug
Quote from: BarryLuk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
Satan would love to have us think less of ourselves than we are, so let's be clear--
the3588 kingdom932 of God2316 is2076 within1787 you.5216
G1787
ἐντός
entosen-tos'
From G1722;
inside (adverb or noun): -
within.
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: BarryLuk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
Satan would love to have us think less of ourselves than we are, so let's be clear--
the3588 kingdom932 of God2316 is2076 within1787 you.5216
G1787
ἐντός
entos
en-tos'
From G1722; inside (adverb or noun): - within.
Luk 10:9 And
heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them,
The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the
finger of God cast out devils,
no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is
come nigh unto you.
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is
in the midst of you."
Let's be clear Molly. Is Jesus then saying that the Kingdom was with him or was he saying that it is right in front you in power and authority and you cannot see it?
Which one matches the context and the setting and the consistent message in Luke?
This does not deny the application of "Christ in you" that was taking place in the transition of the ages in the transitional body of Christ. Nor does it deny the ongoing affect coming to the knowledge of God's love without condition. None of which however proves that the kingdom of God is limited to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is what imo some are imo trying to imply.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: BarryLuk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
Satan would love to have us think less of ourselves than we are, so let's be clear--
the3588 kingdom932 of God2316 is2076 within1787 you.5216
G1787
ἐντός
entos
en-tos'
From G1722; inside (adverb or noun): - within.
Exactly Molly!
Hey Doug,
Quote:
What was it that ended? The Mosaic system of ritual sacrifices. That is what ended in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. And this was a fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
end quote.
Interesting, I thought that you were claiming that the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not fulfill scripture at all.
So apparently then you believe then that Daniel spoke about it but that Matthew 23 and 24 did not? This is an important one, I hope that you address it. Please do explain.
Quote:
Scripture does not say the covenant will end. It says God will "remember" his covenant. And he even revives his covenant, with his new covenant!
End quote.
IMO semantics. God fulfilled his covenant by forgiving them!
The old covenant is inseparable from animal sacrifices and the levitical priesthood.
Common Doug. Surly you are not saying that that was not part of the old covenant and that it is still as it was!
Barry
Now the "Satan" card.
That imo is what people do when they do not desire to engage in productive exchanges of ideas.
And such cards are played, because there is no arguing against them. Rather they are buzz words designed to dismiss the ideas of another without actually attempting to engage in discussion.
Not going there and not doing that.
Next time it comes up I will not respond to it.
Barry
Quote from: BarryThis does not deny the application of "Christ in you" that was taking place in the transition of the ages in the transitional body of Christ. Nor does it deny the ongoing affect coming to the knowledge of God's love without condition. None of which however proves that the kingdom of God is limited to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is what imo some are imo trying to imply.
I don't know what you are saying. The kingdom of God is within you. What is so complicated about that?
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2009, 06:31:01 PM
Quote from: BarryThis does not deny the application of "Christ in you" that was taking place in the transition of the ages in the transitional body of Christ. Nor does it deny the ongoing affect coming to the knowledge of God's love without condition. None of which however proves that the kingdom of God is limited to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is what imo some are imo trying to imply.
I don't know what you are saying. The kingdom of God is within you. What is so complicated about that?
Thank you so much Molly for you question and your point which is well taken.
The problem is in its inherent limitation. It is also clear that this is not what Luke had in mind in this writing as is visible in Luke's recording of the numerous similar statements of Jesus. Which was the kingdom had then through Christ as a precursor of the things to come, had "come upon them".
The kingdom was never meant to be interpreted as something merely to be expressed in the inner workings of God as expressed in the firstfruits.
Blessings to you, Barry
Quote from: BarryThe problem is in its inherent limitation
I'm still confused. How is that limiting?
The very first words out of Jesus' mouth as a preacher of the gospel were these--
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying,
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
--Mark 1
"is at hand"G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451;
to make near, that is, (reflexively)
approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come,
draw) nigh.
So if you were standing next to Jesus and heard him preach those words, the kingdom would indeed be approaching you, drawing near to you, ready for you to enter.
What does he say? Repent! Believe!
12But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1
James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 05:37:47 PM
Hey Doug,
Quote:
What was it that ended? The Mosaic system of ritual sacrifices. That is what ended in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. And this was a fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
end quote.
Interesting, I thought that you were claiming that the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not fulfill scripture at all.
So apparently then you believe then that Daniel spoke about it but that Matthew 23 and 24 did not? This is an important one, I hope that you address it. Please do explain.
Jesus referred to the temple's destruction when he said "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." [Mat. 24:2, Luk. 21:6]
Daniel said the sacrifices would end "in the midst of the week" which was the 70th week. It is the period in which Christ confirms the covenant with us, which is also called the gospel. Paul said it was preached to Abraham.
The last half-week is the "time times and a half" of Dan. 7:25 and 12:7, that extends to the end of the age, when all of the prophecies of Daniel are fulfilled. So there was a big portion of the 70th week left to be fulfilled, when sacrifices ceased in the first century.
The "time, times and a half" is half of "seven times" which is the final prophetic week of Dan. 9:24-27. Daniel's prophecy includes three sections, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, and they are all "seven times" where "times" takes different units in each section. These correspond to the last three of the "seven times" in Lev. 26. The first of the four periods of "seven times" was poured out on Israel in the captivity, Dan. 9:11. So the 70 weeks prophecy explains how Lev. 26 has been fulfilled.
In the last of the "seven times" is when God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It corresponds to the ministry of Jesus, which was the first half-week, plus the entire age of the church, the "time, times and a half," which is a symbolic period. There is only one ""time, times and a half" mentioned in prophecy, but it is obvious that it is one half of a prophetic week. Dan. 12:7 shows it must be the last half.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 05:37:47 PM
Quote:
Scripture does not say the covenant will end. It says God will "remember" his covenant. And he even revives his covenant, with his new covenant!
End quote.
IMO semantics. God fulfilled his covenant by forgiving them!
The new covenant says that God will write his law on our hearts. It is made with Israel and Judah, which in the NT is identified with "the circumcision made without hands."
Col. 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 05:37:47 PM
The old covenant is inseparable from animal sacrifices and the levitical priesthood.
Common Doug. Surly you are not saying that that was not part of the old covenant and that it is still as it was!
Barry
The covenant and promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is distinct from the law, that came later.
Gal. 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.The covenant dates from Abraham's time. Sacrifices, oblations, and the levitical priesthood began in the time of Moses. These are what ended in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2009, 04:07:24 PM
Quote from: BarryHey James.
Thanks for the input!
Quote emphasis mine:
1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
End quote.
"in the midst of you" is my understanding of that text.
Just to be clear, are you denying Christ in you, the hope of glory?
Because my reading of 'in the midst of you[singular]" is the same as the tree of life in the midst of the garden or the ark in the midst of the tent of David--that is, in the middle, in the holiest place.
Pro 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire
is fulfilled, it
is a tree of life.
1Pe 1:9 Receiv
ing the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
:cloud9: Barry, I'll get to your larger post later today, when I have more time, but at this time I'd like to point out that the kingdom of God, is not a place, or related to a place in front of anyone as if they had spiritual eyes, they could say, "there it is". But the kingdom of God is a NATURE, the nature of the One who possesses it, and those who by FAITH do possess it, that being, righteousness, peace, and joy.
Which is why the kingdom is WITHIN YOU, because it is the attributes of the King, if so be it you have acknowledged and accepted who the King is over your heart. Which is why I said earlier that the kingdom by necessity of the phrase, has a King ruling in it, else it is no kingdom, and that kingdom is within, if you have accepted His lordship over your heart.
Those that set themselves to be enemies of His Kingdom, also thought it was a literal Kingdom that was coming, that was manifested solely in an outward fashion, as in a "change of covenants". He Himself said that He came not to destroy it but to fulfill it, and it is fulfilled spiritually, by picking up your cross and following Him thru the compartments of the spiritual pattern, the tabernacle of Moses.
Looking ahead to the Holy of Holies and pronouncing yourself there by virtue of the fact you INTELLECTUALLY see it as the end working of the covenant which is WORKED IN YOU, is like the Israelites of their day proclaiming themselves a High Priest though they took it upon themselves thru the flesh and not the Spirit determination. Picking up your cross and following Him is the same in content, as the scripture, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." It REQUIRES something of the hearer, and that is to be a DOER.
It's faith/outer court, hope/inner court, and charity or love/Holy of Holies, IN THAT ORDER, and that middle one is Christ as Spirit, as the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, our covering. This is the pattern that He set down, which Hebrews 10 says is the pattern of heavenly things. And just like the High Priest of that day, if he was not "covered" properly, he was struck dead upon entrance, so too are those that think by TAKING THOUGHT alone of the carnal mind that they have entered in, have erred. It is the strange fire that the sons of Aaron presumed to take in, that cost them their lives. It was strange in that it was NOT of the fire that God had started. The HG comes upon us in this second step covering as tongues of fire, for this reason.
And so, if you are there by your confession, by virtue of your recognizing intellectually that the third compartment is representative of His love, or man is there but just hasn't had this "intellectual thought" yet that all happened in there by 70 AD, where are the greater works He said we would do in that day? Greater than His, that is. Blessings.....
His Kingdom and reign is through His Holy spirit. Kingdom and
spirit is synomynous.
the spirit can draw nigh, be on and be in people!
Receive the Holy spirit...be baptized with the Holy spirit
[immersed in it] have it poured out upon flesh
take the contrary spirit..and notice it can possess..be in and
be cast out, can act as a veil[cover]
so, His Kingdom can be in the midst when in someone
amongst those without it, in the midst of someone when His
spirit sits on His throne in our body, be poured out ON us, rest
on us..fill us up[inside us] lead us
Rev 11;11 the spirit of life from God entered them and they
stood up on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them,
'"COME UP HERE" and they went up to heaven in a cloud
The tax-payers and harlots entered into the kingdom of
Heaven ahead of the Pharisee's and sadducees..because the
offspring of viper spirit in them sinned against the Holy Ghost.
The harlots repented and received the free gift of the spirit..in
this way they entered into the Kingdom[spirit] ahead of them.
Again...the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom...you can walk in the spirit, be led of the spirit, have the spirit on you and be filled of the spirit...therefore..it can be in your midst, surround you, be on you and in you[filled].
And not only this, it can function in individuals in different
ways,according to the will and purpose of God,
to the Glory of God. It can exhort,lead,heal,make alive,give discernment,wisdom,understanding,joy,peace and many other manifestations
God is a spirit..and those who worship Him must worship in
spirit and truth
Quote from: DougJesus referred to the temple's destruction when he said "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." [Mat. 24:2, Luk. 21:6]
Yes, but interestingly, Jesus himself came as the old temple, the second Adam, the one who was ruled by death. When he says, destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days, the Pharisees think he is a terrorist who is threatening to destroy their temple.
John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.I need Cardinal's help with this lol, but what he has done is purified the old temple, perfected it, and changed it in the resurrection, such that God is able to enter it--this temple which is our bodies. That is the kingdom of God.
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. --Mal 3
when we realize we can do nothing of ourselves,
or work out righteousness per our own hands[you have no life
in you,you must remain in me] Then the old Adam temple
falls..for it is a mix of good and evil...and a house divided
against itself can not stand...for a little leaven ferments the
whole...dead works through the law, the binding of all men in
disobediance/death brings this fall of a stone not left upon a
stone.
But when the spirit of Life/breath of God enters that fallen
temple..it is raised up by spirit and built up by spirit..and it is
eternal...for the kingdom of this world[fallen Adam] has become
the Kingdom of our Lord[last Adam/life giving spirit] It
resurrects/gives life/restores that which was lost. Reconciles
through the spirit,man dwelling in God/God dwelling in man
Several posts here are imo missing the actual point.
Just because there are people who do not know at this particular moment their king does not mean that he is not their king.
Just because there are people who are not living kingdom influenced lives does not mean that they are not in the kingdom.
This is why the kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven was a threat to the old covenant man.
This is why they were told to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
So many Christians are still stuck in the transition of the ages imo.
What you must do imo is explain how the kingdom coming could be a threat to the old covenant man of whom had then been entrusted with the oracles of God.
For if the kingdom did not displace them as old covenant creatures then they had nothing to worry about.
But rather, "every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".
This is a threat that is not dependent upon their belief.
The old covenant did not end for the believer only. This is abundantly clear.
The kingdom of God is eternal.
This is clear from the remarks about the Holy Spirit. The HS as given at Pentecost was a token and down payment not the finality and thus not the conclusion as if a totality was in view. Another evidence that the people are stuck in the transition and thus cannot see the conclusion.
Cardinal. Your post is very hard to answer because it is imo all over the place taking different points from different places on how you feel about the whole matter. At least that is how I see it.
An example of this is the "greater works". The greater works that he was referring too are CLEARLY those that they did indeed do within the transition of the ages to usher in the new age. Those greater works were not done independently of Christ but rather as the traditional body of Christ.
It is an example of how things are imo getting turned around from their clear meanings and presented is evidence that the "end" did not come when it was said that it would come. And this, over and over and over and over again.
I do not view personal subjectivity of the scriptures as the equivalent of "spiritual thinking".
Nor does my letting go and letting God subtract from the fact that the kingdom is Universal.
Blessings Barry
QuoteCardinal. Your post is very hard to answer because it is imo all over the place taking different points from different places on how you feel about the whole matter. At least that is how I see it.
Hi Barry, Its been an interesting confo, But For mine I hardly believe Cardinals answers all over the place[ as In Baffling or she JUST says what She FEELS] or maybe Paul suffered a similar fate in Hebrews 11, Just to Illustrate a POINT., bouncing from scripture to scripture, her POINT being relevant to the KINGDOM\Christ in YOU and its purpose
Throughout the whole Confo she illustrated the Temple pattern.
Its Not that Cardinal needs anyones support Barry, but for others reading Id Care to witness she Not speaking Mumbo Jumbo, well for mine anyway .
But each to their own Barry. :icon_flower:
Blessings :icon_flower:
Repent (after-Mind="remember") that which Israel has forsaken, is not for anyone after JC Left it in Pauls hands, Repent was part of the system that was ONLY for those of the House Of Israel in order to forfill the then system, the new system , Repent / turning away is not our system.
Sorry will "have to explain later" Lee
One more quick note , want some "real" Spiritual eye openners?
www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/Justification
http://www.secretevangel.com/
Lee Damboise II
ok, i just tried the links and they don't work, google Adlai Loudy
# 4
# 7
(fixed your link, Lee - good articles.)
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 12, 2009, 10:10:46 PM
Repent is not for anyone after JC Left it in Pauls hands, Repent was part of the system that was ONLY for those of the House Of Israel in order to forfill the then system, the new system , Repent / turning away is not our system.
Sorry will "have to explain later" Lee
This is a very good point. "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand."
Thus looking to and pointing to that which is accomplished in the transition of the ages as an ongoing system is circular in nature.
It pretends that the kingdom never did come when they said that it would come and looks to that which ushered in the kingdom as the definition of that kingdom.
Such ignores how and why the about to be kingdom was such a threat to the old covenant man. He was about to lose his soul unless he lost his soul as a firstfruit by taking up his cross and following Christ.
Barry
:cloud9: Really.......do you realize the baptism in water is for the repentance of sins, as in an outward show of what has happened inwardly, that of repentance, symbolic of being baptized into His death? And that Jesus told John, who didn't want to baptize him at first, that it was NECESSARY TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Since you refuse to acknowledge that Hebrews 10 tells us that the tabernacle is the pattern of things in the heavenlies, I don't doubt you can't see the relevance of it to believers today. However, this repent not doctrine is NONSENSE. Are you going to take all these out as well?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (WATER), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (FIRE)
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Notice in Acts 3:19 that they said "that your sins may be blotted out;" not that they already WERE.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent :
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (all men) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen , and repent , and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 2:22 Behold , I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love , I rebuke and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent.
Being zealous, I might add, is not sitting back and saying I have all I need, because He did it all. Blessings....
Yes really!
You cannot repent because the kingdom of God is coming. You can repent because it has come.
Really.
The axe is no longer laid to the root of the trees. Rather every tree that did not bear fruit has already been cut down and thrown into the fire.
That is why there is not tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the NJ who is the mother of us all.
What is at stake here is how we see the world around us and how we see people around us. That is at least in part what is at stake here.
And appealing to the transition of the ages proves only that such is what you see now, it does not prove that such has not been already accomplished.
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: Then the apostles were deceived because they were baptizing and seemed to be under the impression in Acts that repentance was necessary? And the Spirit in John in Revelation, He was wrong too about repentance?
Let me guess; they were only saying that because 70 AD hadn't come yet. As I recall, some of it was written in 90 AD, so that's one problem I see with that.
Additionally, New Jerusalem is spiritual, and she is only your mother, if you have been caught up into her, ie. born from above. But if you don't believe that the Kingdom comes WITHOUT observation, ie. IN YOU, then of course, you wouldn't believe that, either, right?
Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 12, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
:cloud9: Then the apostles were deceived because they were baptizing and seemed to be under the impression in Acts that repentance was necessary? And the Spirit in John in Revelation, He was wrong too about repentance?
Let me guess; they were only saying that because 70 AD hadn't come yet. As I recall, some of it was written in 90 AD, so that's one problem I see with that.
Additionally, New Jerusalem is spiritual, and she is only your mother, if you have been caught up into her, ie. born from above. But if you don't believe that the Kingdom comes WITHOUT observation, ie. IN YOU, then of course, you wouldn't believe that, either, right?
Blessings....
You are not following me at all on this one Cardinal.
The apostles were preaching the same basic message of repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus did. Of course repentance was preached.
That however was in view that the kingdom would be fully present once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Also as previously mentioned which no one has tried to tackle yet to my knowledge, it was not preached to the globe as we see it today, only to the world in question.
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.
Barry
Questions for anyone about end times:
If the old covenant is the natural world and natural order then how is it that the Gentiles were said to have been:
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
How is it that Israel was not a stranger of the covenants of promise but the Gentiles were?
Were the Gentiles not part of the natural order of the cosmos?
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:30:28 PM
You are not following me at all on this one Cardinal.
That's an understatement.
The apostles were preaching the same basic message of repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus did. Of course repentance was preached.
Ok, let me get this straight. They preached repentance, the kingdom was at hand, but once it came, they didn't preach repentance anymore? So the ones that received the kingdom prior to 70 AD, really got nothing in your view, because the kingdom really wasn't there yet? Then that would make God a respecter of persons.
There is only one covenant in actuality, the second did not negate the first, it fulfills it spiritually and reveals it spiritually.
That however was in view that the kingdom would be fully present once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Clear as mud.
Also as previously mentioned which no one has tried to tackle yet to my knowledge, it was not preached to the globe as we see it today, only to the world in question.
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.
Again, you've got the cart in front of the horse. Christ was the Head, and His kingdom which is His nature/Spirit, came SPIRITUALLY in the hearts of those that repented of their sins and received the HG, as the scriptures I posted above show.
It had nothing to do with whether or not an actual temple was still standing or not. He didn't preach, and the apostles didn't preach, "you can repent now, but you have to wait almost 40 years for it to take effect". That is ludicrous.
Additionally, you do know why they were called apostles and not disciples at a certain point, right? Because the "new" covenant church was built on the apostles and prophets, after the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY was rent and sanctified by His blood.
Which again, is the same pattern as the water baptism (likeness of His death) and then Spirit baptism (likeness of His glorified life/blood/life is in the blood).
The old temple destruction in 70 AD was not the beginning of anything, but the natural manifestation of what had ALREADY happened in the Spirit. Christ is the Head, and the body (natural flesh realm as well) can only do what it sees it's Head do, even if only thru the fleshly efforts of viewing thru a glass darkly. Blessings.....
Barry
Quote from: Cardinal on December 12, 2009, 11:51:33 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:30:28 PM
You are not following me at all on this one Cardinal.
That's an understatement.
The apostles were preaching the same basic message of repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus did. Of course repentance was preached.
Ok, let me get this straight. They preached repentance, the kingdom was at hand, but once it came, they didn't preach repentance anymore? So the ones that received the kingdom prior to 70 AD, really got nothing in your view, because the kingdom really wasn't there yet? Then that would make God a respecter of persons.
There is only covenant in actuality, the second did not negate the first, it fulfills it spiritually and reveals it spiritually.
That however was in view that the kingdom would be fully present once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Clear as mud.
Also as previously mentioned which no one has tried to tackle yet to my knowledge, it was not preached to the globe as we see it today, only to the world in question.
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.
Again, you've got the cart in front of the horse. Christ was the Head, and His kingdom which is His nature/Spirit, came SPIRITUALLY in the hearts of those that repented of their sins and received the HG, as the scriptures I posted above show.
It had nothing to do with whether or not an actual temple was still standing or not. He didn't preach, and the apostles didn't preach, "you can repent now, but you have to wait almost 40 years for it to take effect". That is ludicrous.
Additionally, you do know why they were called apostles and not disciples at a certain point, right? Because the "new" covenant church was built on the apostles and prophets, after the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY was rent and sanctified by His blood.
Which again, is the same pattern as the water baptism (likeness of His death) and then Spirit baptism (likeness of His glorified life/blood/life is in the blood).
The old temple was not the beginning of anything, but the natural manifestation of what had ALREADY happened in the Spirit. Christ is the Head, and the body (natural flesh realm as well) can only do what it sees it's Head do, even if only thru the fleshly efforts of viewing thru a glass darkly. Blessings.....
Barry
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the
priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which
he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath
not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure
for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come,
The outer still stood while the temple still stood.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant] he hath
made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.
What was about to vanish away and when?
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:10:56 PM
Yes really!
You cannot repent because the kingdom of God is coming. You can repent because it has come. Really.
Hey, that's pretty interesting Barry.
Food for thought. Thanks.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:10:56 PM
What is at stake here is how we see the world around us and how we see people around us. That is at least in part what is at stake here.
Yeah, this is true. :HeartThrob:
Hey Cardinal:
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
All of the above verse speak of the old covenant elements that were being taught to the Gentile Christians for them to obey. Paul is saying no you are not under the elements of the old covenant world.
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
The Hebrew writer is saying that we was going to have to recap all the old history of the livitical priesthood, tabernacle worship and all of the elements of the teaching of Christ that the law itself prophesied. These are the "elements" of the old covenant.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Peter is saying that the old covenant elements are about to be burnt up. He uses "elements of the heavens and the earth" and Paul uses the term "elements of the world". All speaking of the same things.
No where does the term refer to any other thing than the elements of the old covenant.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:30:28 PM
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.
Barry
This makes sense.
hmm. :Chinscratch: Must ponder.
Thanks!
Quote from: sparrow on December 13, 2009, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:10:56 PM
Yes really!
You cannot repent because the kingdom of God is coming. You can repent because it has come. Really.
Hey, that's pretty interesting Barry.
Food for thought. Thanks.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:10:56 PM
What is at stake here is how we see the world around us and how we see people around us. That is at least in part what is at stake here.
Yeah, this is true. :HeartThrob:
Yes in deed Sparrow!!
After all why preach a coming kingdom that would never quite come.
And notice that the repentance was because of the fact that it was coming. The result of none repentance was losing everything they thought they had. And when did that happen?
They were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.
It is the revelation of God's love without condition that displaced and fulfilled the whole of the old covenant and the elements of the world.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 13, 2009, 12:00:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 12, 2009, 11:51:33 PM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 12, 2009, 11:30:28 PM
You are not following me at all on this one Cardinal.
That's an understatement.
The apostles were preaching the same basic message of repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus did. Of course repentance was preached.
Ok, let me get this straight. They preached repentance, the kingdom was at hand, but once it came, they didn't preach repentance anymore? So the ones that received the kingdom prior to 70 AD, really got nothing in your view, because the kingdom really wasn't there yet? Then that would make God a respecter of persons.
There is only covenant in actuality, the second did not negate the first, it fulfills it spiritually and reveals it spiritually.
That however was in view that the kingdom would be fully present once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Clear as mud.
Also as previously mentioned which no one has tried to tackle yet to my knowledge, it was not preached to the globe as we see it today, only to the world in question.
Also we cannot repent in view of a coming kingdom. We can only change our minds in view of a present fully realized kingdom.
Again, you've got the cart in front of the horse. Christ was the Head, and His kingdom which is His nature/Spirit, came SPIRITUALLY in the hearts of those that repented of their sins and received the HG, as the scriptures I posted above show.
It had nothing to do with whether or not an actual temple was still standing or not. He didn't preach, and the apostles didn't preach, "you can repent now, but you have to wait almost 40 years for it to take effect". That is ludicrous.
Additionally, you do know why they were called apostles and not disciples at a certain point, right? Because the "new" covenant church was built on the apostles and prophets, after the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY was rent and sanctified by His blood.
Which again, is the same pattern as the water baptism (likeness of His death) and then Spirit baptism (likeness of His glorified life/blood/life is in the blood).
The old temple was not the beginning of anything, but the natural manifestation of what had ALREADY happened in the Spirit. Christ is the Head, and the body (natural flesh realm as well) can only do what it sees it's Head do, even if only thru the fleshly efforts of viewing thru a glass darkly. Blessings.....
Barry
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come,
The outer still stood while the temple still stood.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant] he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.
What was about to vanish away and when?
Barry
:cloud9: And again, like the Pharisees, you think He was talking about the literal temple instead of the temple of His body. That they are connected is revealed by the fact the LITERAL veil in the temple was rent when He died, SHOWING that the way into the Holy place had been made ON THAT DAY.
Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an
high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched , and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer . 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that
there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not , saith the Lord. 10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest . 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith , A new covenant, he hath made the first old . Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
:cloud9: Notice above that He is the High Priest of the sanctuary, the true tabernacle (us) made without hands. Also notice that the priests served
"unto the example and shadow of heavenly things".Also, that "waxeth old" is used two places only in there, and in the Hebrew part of it's meaning is "to move, proceed, advance", which it's obvious that happened as He was described as a SPIRITUAL High Priest, whose function was to offer up a sacrifice FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE. Our heart is the altar that takes place in, in the newly revealed covenant. Blessings....
:cloud9: Barry, I already explained what the elemental things and the rudiments of the world were, in a previous post, as I said they were the things of the flesh of us which is said in Matt. 13 to be the "world" ie. us, the field where the good seed is planted. What I didn't get time to do was address your take on them melting, dissolving, ect.
Let's look at the same concept used in Isaiah.....
Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out , and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be MELTED with their blood. 4 And all the HOST of heaven shall be DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall FALL down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a FALLING fig from the fig tree.
"Host" pertains to an army, angels, the WHOLE CREATION, the moon and stars.
Oddly enough, that word "melted" there also means things, like to faint, or be discouraged and fearful. Oddly personal characteristics for a covenant melting away, isn't it?
The word "dissolved" also has oddly personal characteristics in it's meaning, such as, to decay or pine away, the festering of wounds.
The word "falling" there also has personal characteristics, such as to be senseless, to be foolish, to treat with contempt.
As I've been saying, this is a PERSONAL Word, a SPIRITUAL covenant with a FRAMEWORK of letter. The letter is as the bones, the Spirit puts "celestial" flesh on those bones in this covenant, thru wisdom. A wise woman/soul builds her house with wisdom that is from above. Blessings....
Quote from: BarryThey were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.
Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. --Rev 22
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2009, 12:54:07 AM
Quote from: BarryThey were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.
Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
:cloud9: That's true, Molly.........and again; there is no way into the Kingdom, which is not found with observation, except thru the picking up your cross and following Him thru the compartments of the tabernacle and let the Spirit do the works in you throughout the process.
When Satan spoke thru Peter, "Be it far from you Lord", he was responding to what Jesus said was the manner in which He would die, which was representative of the flesh things of man coming to an end in the death of picking up their cross and following suit. Blessings....
Romans 8:8-11 (CLT)...
8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
10 Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.
2 Corinthians 13:5 (YLT)...
Your own selves try ye, if ye are in the faith; your own selves prove ye; do ye not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, if ye be not in some respect disapproved of?
2 Corinthians 13:5 (AV)...
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Corinthians 13:5 (CLT)...
Try yourselves, if you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or are you not recognizing yourselves that Christ Jesus is in you, except you are somewhat disqualified?
I was earlier asked what I thought "sin" was. At the end of Romans 1 there is a list of "All Unrighteousness." It also explains what happens to people of a culture who are turned over to reprobate minds. Open and approved homosexuality is a significant feature of such condemnation. It is God's judgement upon them. Homosexuality is the judgment. God judges not only persons, but tribes and tongues and peoples and nations. If we are in the midst of a corporate judgement we better repent! God can save us out of a city He is about to destroy...if...we find grace in His sight. He is sending His angels to tie the wicked together into bundles to be burned.
Romans 1:24-32 (CLT)...
24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,
25 those who alter the truth of God into the lie, and are venerated, and offer divine service to the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for the eons! Amen!
26 Therefore God gives them over to dishonorable passions. For their females, besides, alter the natural use into that which is beside nature.
27 Likewise also the males, besides, leaving the natural use of the female, were inflamed in their craving for one another, males with males effecting indecency, and getting back in themselves the retribution of their deception which must be.
28 And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified (or, AV, "reprobate") mind, to do that which is not befitting,
29 filled with all injustice, wickedness, evil, greed, distended with envy, murder, strife, guile, depravity, whisperers,
30 vilifiers, detesters of God, outragers, proud, ostentatious, inventors of evil things, stubborn to parents,
31 unintelligent, perfidious, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them.
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2009, 12:54:07 AM
Quote from: BarryThey were not told to repent or else it would not come for them!!! There is no way to fit such a thing into any of these contexts. They were told to repent because it was coming. And it came in it's fullness at the end of the old covenant.
Those that do not repent do not make it into the kingdom, do they--even today?
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
Hi!
Just a hurried comment:
We would probably do well to note the distinction between "gates into
the city" and those dwelling withing the perimeters/boundary of the city ... a similar distinction can be found between those dwelling within the walls of the city and those dwelling in the temple of the city.
Hi Gilbert, I hope you'll come back and go into that in more detail when you can.
Quote from: Reformer11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.
That's beautiful!
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 12, 2009, 10:31:49 PM
One more quick note , want some "real" Spiritual eye openners?
www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/Justification
http://www.secretevangel.com/
Lee Damboise II
ok, i just tried the links and they don't work, google Adlai Loudy
# 4
# 7
(fixed your link, Lee - good articles [jabcat]).
I really enjoyed that article on justification by faith. And, it gives me a better idea of what you guys are talking about. I can't quite figure out where he gets his etymology but I really enjoyed what he had to say.
Here's an excerpt--
JUSTIFIED GRATUITOUSLY
But the grandest and most overwhelming thought of the whole subject is found in the word "gratuitously" of our text. "Being justified gratuitously by His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom.3:24). By the rendering put upon this word in our Common, or King James, version of the Scriptures, much has been lost of the exceeding riches of God's grace which He has been pleased to reveal to us right here. The original word is doorean. In our Common version it is rendered into English by the word "freely." But this word is entirely too weak and inadequate to express the depth and richness of the original. By going to John 15:25, we find the word used again by divine inspiration, but given a different rendering by our King James translators. Here we find it used with reference to the Jews hating Jesus, and they translated it, without a cause." And such is the meaning of this precious word. Justification on any other ground than the free and unforced favor of God, is impossible, for none deserve it. But now, in Christ Jesus, has been effected a deliverance from all condemnation and judgment, absolutely free to all who believe, and all "without a cause"--gratuitously.
ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD
This is great and wonderful and glorious, yet when we look into the etymology of this word doorean, we find still a more transcendent scope of richness than we have ever dreamed. By separating the word into its elements and assigning a standard English equivalent for each element, we get the literal meaning in a compound English word, viz., GIVE-GUSHED. Now this reveals in what way we are "justified." It is GIVE-GUSHED through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus. I believe this is the [most] glorious thought that ever came to me of how God saves the sinner. Justification with all its depth of richness in meaning is magnified and intensified by this precious word doorean. It means that God not only "justifies," but He "give- gushes" it on us. That is, He pours forth, in an extravagant display of affection, all His transcendent riches of grace contained in the meaning of the wonderful word dikaiooo. The sinner in dikaiooo is justified shown to be guiltless and blameless. He is acquitted--declared to be free and innocent; exonerated. And he is vindicated defended against all attacks and maintained successfully as right and just. And the glorious part about it all is, it is done "without a cause," "gratuitously." That is, it is GIVE-GUSHed--bestowed as an extravagant display of His love wherewith He loves us--"through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory, through faith in His blood)."
Such a deliverance, beloved, is entirely on the ground of grace, and bars all boasting unless it be in Christ and in His God Who has become our Justifier. Through our justification by faith in Christ Jesus, our Lord, we are placed in the unclouded favor of God, where "nothing consequently is condemnation" (Rom.8:1). What more could we desire? May He give us the grace to exclaim from the depths of our hearts, with the psalmist of old, "Praise the Lord, O my soul; all that is within me, praise His holy name."
Quote from: Cardinal on December 12, 2009, 11:02:25 PM
:cloud9: Really.......do you realize the baptism in water is for the repentance of sins, as in an outward show of what has happened inwardly, that of repentance, symbolic of being baptized into His death? And that Jesus told John, who didn't want to baptize him at first, that it was NECESSARY TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Since you refuse to acknowledge that Hebrews 10 tells us that the tabernacle is the pattern of things in the heavenlies, I don't doubt you can't see the relevance of it to believers today. However, this repent not doctrine is NONSENSE. Are you going to take all these out as well?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (WATER), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (FIRE)
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Notice in Acts 3:19 that they said "that your sins may be blotted out;" not that they already WERE.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent :
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (all men) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen , and repent , and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 2:22 Behold , I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love , I rebuke and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent.
Being zealous, I might add, is not sitting back and saying I have all I need, because He did it all. Blessings....
Card, It is quite obvious that you do not have the eyes to see , YET.
hint"=== EVERY verse you Quoted was to a Jew, and or The House of Israel People or ( Scriptures) for them, Not the man of Grace....
IMO
PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning
pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency
in remitting guilt or the
penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked.
Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),
Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision,
concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27),
imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT... These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...
Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy
To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and
of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christ
according to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).
Lee Damboise II :pitiful: That most are blind to some basic "God",
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 06:46:03 AM
PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency in remitting guilt or the penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),
Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision, concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27), imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT... These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...
Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy
To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christaccording to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).
Lee Damboise II :pitiful: That most are blind to some basic "God",
I do not accept the re-building of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. The Bible does not teach salvation by different covenants, one to the circumcision and another to the uncircumcision.
Ephesians 2:11-22 (Concordant Literal)...
11 Wherefore, remember that once
you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era,
apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near,
18 for through Him we both have had the access, in one spirit, to the Father.
19 Consequently, then,
no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,
20 being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the capstone of the corner being Christ Jesus Himself,
21 in Whom the entire building, being connected together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord:
22 in Whom you, also, are being built together for God's dwelling place, in spirit.
What about making the two, those of the circumcision and the uncircumcision, into one don't you understand?
"For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier..." (Ep 2:14)"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Gal 5:6, CLT)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Gal 6:15, CLT)
Romans 3:26-31 (Concordant Literal)...
26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law?
28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.
29 Or is He the god of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also?
30 Yes, of the nations also, if so be that
God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith.
31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.
Romans 2:28-29 (Concordant Literal)...
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.Racial dispensationalism is really a weird and unScriptural doctrine and in so many more ways than indicated in this post. Another way of salvation based on what race you are born into? You got to be kidding! How I wish you were. Just don't expect me to believe it.
THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL NOW!!!
:cloud9: The first "churches" were Jews that received their Messiah. We were grafted into THEM; that makes us one, and in a sense as we undergo the circumcision of our hearts, spiritual "Jews", hopefully of the variety that are virgins and have never known a woman (not joined to a harlot soul OR a harlot church).
Saying that the Jews only had to repent, contradicts scripture, and presents God as a respecter of persons and an uneven handling of grace. Grace and truth came thru Christ Jesus to ALL, and so they received it too, not just the Gentiles.
But it is not "greasy grace" whereby you can slide and do whatever you want to without repercussions, as was dealt with when they discussed "should we sin more that grace might abound?" (God forbid) and with Jesus who told the woman (church/soul) to "go and sin no more".
What I see in what Loudy wrote, is that "pardon" is a description of the outer court dealings, and that justification is a description of the inner court dealings. Which is why it says, called (outer court), justified (inner court), glorified (Holy of Holies). He saw two different realms there, but failed to see that they were 2 parts of a 3 part WHOLE. Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on December 14, 2009, 07:37:49 AM
Racial dispensationalism is really a weird and unScriptural doctrine and in so many more ways than indicated in this post. Another way of salvation based on what race you are born into? You got to be kidding! How I wish you were. Just don't expect me to believe it.
THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL NOW!!!
Yes, I agree. Paul said the prophets are part of the foundation of the church, along with the apostles, and Jesus Christ the chief corner stone. [Eph. 2:20]
Since Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were called prophets, they are part of the foundation of the church. And the name "Israel" was given to Jacob in Genesis. So Israel is a label that properly belongs to the church, not the Zionist state in Palestine, or to unbelieving Jews, according to the NT. The name
Zion or
Sion in Heb. 12:22-23 is applied to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven." This is the same church that Paul speaks of in all his letters.
Col. 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.There are not two "bodies" of Christ, or two "brides," but the "bride" and Christ are "one body."
Eph. 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.Adlai Loudy said Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Acts were all "Circumcision" writings, as were Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2, & 3 John, Jude, & Revelation. So he rejected all of those scriptures, saying they do not apply to us. Yet Paul said,
Phil. 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.The only parts of the Bible that Loudy considered applying to us today were: Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, Titus, Philemon.
[The Word of Truth "Correctly Partitioned" by Adlai Loudy]
Loudy's doctrine seems similar to the ancient heresy of Marcion.
Here is what Loudy wrote about the book of Hebrews:
After Acts the next book, in order, of the Circumcision writings, is Hebrews. The name and character of the book show beyond the question of a doubt that it was written to Israel. It speaks of "the fathers" (Heb.1:1)--and they belong to the Israelites alone--"covenants," and "priesthood," "kingdom," "etc.," which unmistakably label it for the people Israel, for the "covenants," "kingdom," and "priesthood...in both type and antitype belong to Israel and no one else, if we honor God's word above the traditions of Christendom. The "new" or "better covenant" is confirmed in chapter 8:6-12, which is for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." How a gentile can push in here and appropriate these teachings to himself, without divine warrant or authorization, requires more unmitigated presumption than we desire to possess. Here are part of Loudy's comments on the book of Revelation:
We consummate our study with "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ" or Revelation," which is the last of the Circumcision writings. And, it is abundant with proof, to the discriminating reader, that it was written to the Circumcision. Everything is Jewish from the beginning to the end, with the nations subject to them. They are a "kingdom of priest" (Rev.1:5-6). The "ark of God's covenant" (Rev.11:19), which belongs exclusively to Israel is in view. And, the "holy city" is inscribed with the names of "the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel," and the "wall of the city has twelve foundations and on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lambkin" (Rev.21:12,13). Now let us take note of the fact that when "nations" are spoken of in connection with this city, they are always outside, and not in the city (Rev.21: 24-26). There is not so much as a hint, in all the word of God, that the nations will have any part in the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Further proof on this, that we, "the church which is the body of Christ," have no part in this City, is the fact that the foundations of the city are inscribed with only the names of the "twelve apostles of the Lambkin." How shall we account for the omission of the other apostles from this honor? Paul and Timothy and Silas (1 Thess.1:1; 2:6) were regarded as apostles. Why are they left out? And above all, any foundation which is supposed to support the church, must include the apostle Paul, through whom the "revelation" and all the truth concerning "the joint body- church" was made known (Eph.3:12). The absence of Paul's name (for he was not one of the "Twelve," Acts 2:14; 6:2, Paul having not been converted at this time) is proof positive that those to whom he ministered have no part nor lot in the "Holy City." It will contain "saved Israel," "the bride of the Lambkin." Our allotment, "the church which is the body of Christ," is "among the celestials" in heaven (Eph.2:4-7; 3:1-10). http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/TheWordOfTruthCorrectlyPartitioned.htmLoudy may have been influenced by the writings of certain German critical scholars, who taught similar things about an alleged division between Paul and Peter. Yet Peter specifically endorses all the writings of Paul!
2 Pet. 3:14-16
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Doug
I can see what Lee and Loudy are saying in the sense of before and after. We start out at different places before but end up in the same place after.
I've never paid attention before to the different evangels in terms of the difference between them. I'll pay more attention in the future.
I've always been impressed by Paul saying that the secrets kept from the ages are now made known to the Gentiles--in that God has skipped over the two thousand years of history between Abraham and Jesus to present the fulfillment of the promises to the real heirs of it--the children of the promise. It's a surprise!
Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
--Col 1
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 06:46:03 AM
PARDON AND JUSTIFICATION
No greater CONFUSION and SPIRITUAL LOSS is to be found in Scripture study than that which comes by NOT distinguishing the teachings of the Scriptures concerning pardon and justification.Pardon is the exercise of executive clemency in remitting guilt or the penalty incurred, or extending courteous forbearance. It is the prerogative of a governor or king, while justification is the judicial act of a judge, pronouncing "NOT GUILTY" , exonerating, acquitting, showing to be just. Pardon is probational and may be revoked, but justification is ABSOLUTE and FINAL, and when ONCE pronounced, it cannot be revoked. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH( Gal 2:7-8; Mat. 10:5), which OFFERED PARDON OR REMISSION OF SINS THROUGH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM ( Acts 2:38),
Paul and those associated with him, on the contrary, preached the evangel of the UNcircumcision, concerning the church which is the body of Christ, with the hope of glory (Gal. 2:7; Col. 1: 24-27), imparting to the believers JUSTIFICATION by grace apart from law or works of righteousness ( Rom. 3:21-24; 4:25; 5: 1-2;Eph. 2:8,9). There IS NO PARDON OR REMISSION ABOUT IT...
Paul taught remission of sins.
Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.Oops, looks like Adlai missed that one!
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 06:46:03 AM
These are things of "dire" consequence which must be distinguished IF we are to enter into the FULL realization of the Spiritual Blessings which is the special Grace for Believers TODAY...
Pg. 27-28 of
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy
To the Israelites belong the sonship, the glory, the COVENANTS, the law, the divine service, the promises, the fathers, and of whom and TO WHOM """"CAME Christaccording to the flesh (Ex. 4:22; Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8-9; Mat. 15: 24).
Yes we need to become part of the Israel of God as the promise, that "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" is made to Israel. [Hebrews 8:12, 10:17]
As for Babylon the harlot, representing all false religion, God indeed remembers her sins.
Revelation 18:5
For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 13, 2009, 12:10:45 AM
Hey Cardinal:
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
All of the above verse speak of the old covenant elements that were being taught to the Gentile Christians for them to obey.
Col. 2:20-22
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?They were evidently being taught to follow the Rules and traditions of the Pharisees, of which Jesus said,
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.It was former Pharisees who believed, who wanted Gentile believers to be circumcised. Their rules prohibited Jews from associating with Gentiles. This is illustrated by John 4:9, "the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans."
The idea that Gentiles who became Christians should adopt Jewish ways was a "commandment of men," not of God. However, Paul taught believers from among the Gentiles to avoid idolatry, and fornication, and to keep the commandment to "honour thy father and mother."
1 Cor. 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1 Thes. 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Col. 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Eph. 6:2
Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;The above scriptures relate directly to the first, fifth, seventh, and tenth commandments in Ex. 20.
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 13, 2009, 12:10:45 AM
Paul is saying no you are not under the elements of the old covenant world.
For Paul, the gospel was incorporated in the promises made to Abraham, which is what he referred to as the covenant, rather than the ordinances of sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, the tabernacle, etc. They came long after the "covenant."
Galatians 3:16-18
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 13, 2009, 12:10:45 AM
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
The Hebrew writer is saying that we was going to have to recap all the old history of the livitical priesthood, tabernacle worship and all of the elements of the teaching of Christ that the law itself prophesied. These are the "elements" of the old covenant.
See above. The law is distinct from the covenant. Otherwise, why would Paul say: "the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul..."?
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 13, 2009, 12:10:45 AM
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Peter is saying that the old covenant elements are about to be burnt up. He uses "elements of the heavens and the earth" and Paul uses the term "elements of the world". All speaking of the same things.
No where does the term refer to any other thing than the elements of the old covenant.
Blessings Barry
"Elements" in those days were fire, water, air, and earth. Peter said the heavens would pass away with "great noise." And the heavens of that day were the starry firmament, a rigid spherical shell around the earth, and the planetary spheres, all revolving around the earth. These have indeed all passed away with great noise or commotion. No one believes in them any more. The rigid heaven was demolished and became obsolete when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth in the scientific revolution. And the church and the scriptures were discredited, because the church condemned Copernicus and Galileo and other astronomers. It was a historic commotion that continues today! So Peter's prophecy was fulfilled, in about the mid-eighteenth century AD.
Doug
reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER.
A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...
You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian , But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.
Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...
And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.
But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.
But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.
Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.
The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5
Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...
Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.
Matt. 15:24 Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"
and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.
Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...
What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????
so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.
Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX" the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time. I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision
Molly, Thanks for you help and support .
ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.
But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.
I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.
Lee.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 03:35:48 PM
I can see what Lee and Loudy are saying in the sense of before and after. We start out at different places before but end up in the same place after.
Not according to Adlai Loudy. He thought that Jews and Gentiles have separate eternal destinies. The Jewish believers (the "bride") inherit an earthly kingdom, while Gentile believers (the "body") end up "among the celestials" in heaven. See his comments on Revelation in my earlier post.
Hmm.. how would that apply to Gary Amirault and his wife, who is Jewish? Presumably Gary would be off "among the celestials," while Mrs. A. remains here on earth!
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 03:35:48 PM
I've never paid attention before to the different evangels in terms of the difference between them. I'll pay more attention in the future.
Hmm.. "different evangels" is indeed what dispensationalism is about, especially ultradispensationalism. But Paul said there is only one gospel of Christ. It applies to both Jew and Greek. One gospel, but there are many distortions and perversions of it.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 03:35:48 PM
I've always been impressed by Paul saying that the secrets kept from the ages are now made known to the Gentiles--in that God has skipped over the two thousand years of history between Abraham and Jesus to present the fulfillment of the promises to the real heirs of it--the children of the promise. It's a surprise!
Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
The same gospel that was preached to Jews, was also preached to Gentiles, who became part of "the circumcision" when they believed! [Phil. 3:3]
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 03:35:48 PM
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
--Col 1
Doug
Doug, what you said about A Loudy is correct, although he does believe that All end up in one place per-say, God. When all is said and done. the Biggest problem with A. Loudy is that he speaks of a Word By Word study, and does not say like most preachers today, that later on it has a connection to later verses or age, or has the same meaning throughout the bible, although in differant books written by differant writers, "Scriptures" and he don't seperate carnal and spiritual by words most readers understand. He expects the reader to know that words have meaning, and everywhere carnal and spiritual are used, in almost all words. give or take. and not pick and choose.
There is much more but I have to go for a while. Lee
:cloud9: OF COURSE we started out as "two"; that is what the gospel addresses, the two are now made ONE. The veil of partition was rent the day He died, and they all had to be taught exactly what that meant to each group of people.
This doctrine of separation of Loudy's falls short for several reasons, not the least of which is this. Everything pertaining to the Jews revolved around the moon cycles, ie. a lunar covenant. The moon is representative of the woman, the "lesser glory", and they and all others who have not heard the call to come up higher, are the "bride" of the sons of God He is raising up, as soon as they are of a "mature age", which will not be much longer, I assure you.
They will hear the call to "leave father and mother and cleave unto their wife", for it is not good for man to be alone. We have already left father (those ruling over us; pastors, the letter of the law, ect.) and mother (those giving comfort; church, ect.) and are only waiting for the call to "cleave".
Or did you think He was raising up mature sons in His image again, so they could die without declaring His generation, ie. producing SEED/a son with a "wife"? Joseph means, "God will add another" and the "another" is Benjamin, which means, "the SON of my RIGHT HAND."
Jesus who ascended sits at the Father's RIGHT HAND, because that is His station and portion of glory, ie. the Father's right hand, and praise God He has gone THERE to prepare a place FOR THE SONS, that where He is, they might be also. And so it says, the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY that is getting ready to be revealed IN US. THIS, is why Christ in you, is the hope of glory.
In their marriage customs, the son goes to get the bride and BRING HER TO HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, ie. bring her to same place as He is, the RIGHT HAND, but the Father tells him when to go get her.
So they are already "betrothed", which then was as binding as already being married, and to suggest otherwise is to "put asunder what God hath joined together", and is an antichrist spirit, for Christ IS both male and female, spirit and soul, Jew and gentile, sun and moon in likeness of glory.
"Not discerning the Lord's body is why there are so many sick and dying among you", the discernment of which, is the ROOT OF UR. Blessings....
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 06:15:27 PM
Doug, what you said about A Loudy is correct, although he does believe that All end up in one place per-say, God. When all is said and done. the Biggest problem with A. Loudy is that he speaks of a Word By Word study, and does not say like most preachers today, that later on it has a connection to later verses or age, or has the same meaning throughout the bible, although in differant books written by differant writers, "Scriptures" and he don't seperate carnal and spiritual by words most readers understand. He expects the reader to know that words have meaning, and everywhere carnal and spiritual are used, in almost all words. give or take. and not pick and choose.
There is much more but I have to go for a while. Lee
The law of Moses contained "a shadow of good things to come," but was unable to justify or bring righteousness. But those things became a reality for the first century church. [Heb. 10:1]
This may be helpful:
The Relation of the Old to the New Dispensation
by Joseph Addison Alexander
The Biblical Repertory and Princeton Review Vol. 23 No. 4 (1851) (Page 649)
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/JAA_ROND.htmlDoug
Card, I get the drift that your trying to pin on A. Loudy that he was a astrologer or "something Bad."
If "you" don't like him, then maybe you should not accept his word, i.e.
the Concordant Literal Bible and all attached to their understanding, or beliefs.
Like Sigler
tentmakers
J.P.Eby to name Just a few that I "know" your aware of.
:cloud9: I am NOT trying to portray HIM as an astrologer (where you got that, I don't know) or anything bad, but I WILL judge that SPIRIT that blinded him to PRESENT REVEALED TRUTH, no different than any other that seeks to divide the body that His death made ONE. God is no respecter of persons, and know ye not we shall judge "angels"? Blessings....
:cloud9: PS. Being a translator does not insure perfection, as the only translator that is infallible is the HOLY SPIRIT, our teacher, because He is the only one by which we can profit spiritually thru, ie. adding to the measure of Christ in us.
This is interesting to me to mull over because I have always felt I was missing something important regarding this. For instance, why would my Jesus make that comment about dogs when talking to that poor woman who wanted her daughter healed? Or how could he tell the prostitute to go and sin no more as if just by giving her the command such a thing would be possible? But, he wouldn't have said it if that were not the case--that a life could be turned around on a dime by him.
Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel? And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
--John 8
I'm thinking not from the point of view of today, but from the point of view of then, and how it must have looked to the Jews of that time. Some, I think, knew who Jesus was from reading their own prophets and sought to kill him because they perceived that he was about to snatch the power and kingdom out of their hands. But, some, like Peter and Paul couldn't quite comprehend but were willing to understand when God revealed the truth to them. What they had strived for and worked so hard for was given freely, graciously, and completely to the Gentiles--to the whole world.
7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Acts 11
:cloud9: Because Molly, Jesus the son of man, came to the lost sheep of Israel, BUT Jesus THE CHRIST the SON OF GOD came to both Jew and Gentile after He died, and was glorified and shed forth that which you see and hear, ie. the day of Pentecost. THERE is the difference in the ministry that is discerned, but INCORRECTLY applied.
One a suffering servant, the other a risen King seated at the right hand of the Father, able to plant seed to raise up HIS generation.
John: 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried , saying , If any man thirst , let him come unto me, and drink . 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said , out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Same Spirit, but diversities thereof. As you noted by the scripture you brought out above, Peter, a JEW, found that the Father THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST was saving the gentiles as well. The Jews that would, had to come in FIRST, because the Gentiles are grafted INTO THEM.
Was salvation not available to all? Technically yes, as the woman who said that about the crumbs and the woman saved from adultery showed, and for that matter, the centurian, and He honored their faith where they were at, as He has throughout the generations of men and women that heard Him and believed.
The reason it says that the gifts and the mysteries of God were given to the Gentiles, is because the Jews of that day had a season to receive before the "door to the Ark was shut" on them. Once as many came in of the clean and unclean "beasts" of carnal men that were going to, He concluded them in unbelief UNTIL the Gentiles could come in. He continues this pattern of opening and closing doors that no man can open or close, until ALL are brought in.
And I might add, that the if the "putting away" (a DIVORCED wife term) was glorious, how much more will the RESTORATION of them be (and they have been being called in for the last 2 decades), which means the door is not far from closing on THIS generation. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
This is interesting to me to mull over because I have always felt I was missing something important regarding this. For instance, why would my Jesus make that comment about dogs when talking to that poor woman who wanted her daughter healed?
Jesus said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." The saying is quite true.
Which is preferable, to be called a dog, or to be called dead?
Scripture says: "a living dog is better than a dead lion." [Eccl. 9:4]
Yet Jesus called the Jewish relatives of a disciple "dead" when he said "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." [Mat. 8:22]
I suggest what he said of the woman of Canaan was probably less offensive than what he said about those bereaved Jews. And Jesus called Pharisees serpents, did he not?
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
Or how could he tell the prostitute to go and sin no more as if just by giving her the command such a thing would be possible? But, he wouldn't have said it if that were not the case--that a life could be turned around on a dime by him.
Where does it say she was a prostitute? She was caught committing adultery, and Jesus warned her to quit, which was good advice.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel? And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel.
Which of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
--John 8
I'm thinking not from the point of view of today, but from the point of view of then, and how it must have looked to the Jews of that time. Some, I think, knew who Jesus was from reading their own prophets and sought to kill him because they perceived that he was about to snatch the power and kingdom out of their hands. But, some, like Peter and Paul couldn't quite comprehend but were willing to understand when God revealed the truth to them. What they had strived for and worked so hard for was given freely, graciously, and completely to the Gentiles--to the whole world.
The story of how Christ revealed that the Gentiles were being included in the promise of salvation is related in detail in the NT, and was foretold in the prophecies of the OT. James interpreted the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12 and applied it to the church, Acts 15:13-18.
The prophecy James referred to is :
Amos 9:11-12
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.James understood that "the tabernacle of David" in that prophecy was a reference to the church.
Quote from: DougWhich of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.
Well, I just think that as a technicality, it had to be offered to the Jews first, and they had to reject the offer as a group. That would allow God to show mercy to the Gentiles. I'm still missing why this is the case lol--I mean why it had to be done that way or what point was being made.
16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
--Luke 14
Card: my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.
I have to ask, Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God? simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message. If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death. Peroid.... end of story
Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC. The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24) For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36
After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2009, 01:54:50 AM
Quote from: DougWhich of us was not "lost"? Only those who are "lost" need to be "found." Only the sick need a physician. If we are found by Christ, who is our Shepherd, we become part of his flock, which is called Israel, Jerusalem, the temple of God, etc. And so the church is the "lost sheep of Israel," those who have been found.
Well, I just think that as a technicality, it had to be offered to the Jews first, and they had to reject the offer as a group. That would allow God to show mercy to the Gentiles. I'm still missing why this is the case lol--I mean why it had to be done that way or what point was being made.
16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
--Luke 14
I think you may have answered your own question.
However here are some additional points to consider.
John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
This may be one to consider:
Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.The "house of David" was interpreted by James as referring to the Church in Acts 15:16. Jerusalem may also represent the church. [Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22]
In Daniel 9:27, Christ confirms the covenant for one week, which is the 70th week, and the last half-week spans all the time since the crucifixion. The 70th corresponds to the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26, in which God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and is reconciled to Israel. If this had occurred in the first century the prophecy would be fulfilled already and so there would be no time left for Gentiles to come in.
Doug
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 15, 2009, 02:14:55 AM
the rezz of JC.
Hi Lee,
If you please, would you not take a cavalier tone with the most momentous event in human history.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 15, 2009, 02:14:55 AM
Card: my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.
I have to ask, Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God? simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message. If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death. Peroid.... end of story
Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC. The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24) For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36
After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).
Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir,
as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when
we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
I suppose these too were ALL Gentiles slaves \ servant UNDER LAW to a SON of FAITH,...The Child of Promise,BORN a100 yrs
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that
we might receive the adoption of sons. we are ONE in HIM, the spirit united with the soul...it starts In Genesis, ADAM [ Spirit] Eve [soul] , Man[ spirit] wife[ soul ], ill stop cause im just going to repeat what a few others have already shown
No disrespect ment, I cant spell resirection, and i cant figure out why I lost my spell checker on this site. or my cut/ copy and paste function too.
Quote from: DougThis may be one to consider:
Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Yes, that looks important. He is saving the tents of Judah saved first versus the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
So--what are the tents of Judah? They must be the Christians--those carrying the Christ [who must always have pre-eminence in all things], the Lion of the tribe of Judah. :mshock:
10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. --Gen 49
"Shiloh"H7886
שׁילה
shîylôhshee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh,
an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.
H7951
שׁלו שׁלה
shâlâh shâlav
shaw-law', shaw-lav'
The second form being used in Job_3:26; a primitive root; to be tranquil, that is, secure or successful: - be happy, prosper, be in safety.
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2009, 04:14:21 AM
Quote from: DougThis may be one to consider:
Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Yes, that looks important. He is saving the tents of Judah saved first versus the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
So--what are the tents of Judah? They must be the Christians--those carrying the Christ [who must always have pre-eminence in all things], the Lion of the tribe of Judah. :mshock:
10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
--Gen 49
"Shiloh"
H7886
שׁילה
shîylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.
H7951
שׁלו שׁלה
shâlâh shâlav
shaw-law', shaw-lav'
The second form being used in Job_3:26; a primitive root; to be tranquil, that is, secure or successful: - be happy, prosper, be in safety.
I don't know. But for centuries, Jews have sought to be buried on the Mount of Olives thinking they will be first to rise from the dead!
Comments from:
Zechariah: his visions and warnings
By William Lindsay Alexander. 1885
http://books.google.ca/books?id=jVMHAAAAQAAJ"The Lord also will succour the tents of Judah first (or, according to another reading, supported by the LXX, Syriac and Vulgate, as in former days), in order that the splendour of the house of David and the splendour of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not exalt itself over Judah" (ver. 7). By "the tents of Judah" are designated the inhabitants of the land generally; not, as has been suggested, those dwelling in "huts which cannot afford any protection to their inhabitants" (Calvin), but the country at large, with its inhabitants, as distinguished from Jerusalem, with its princes and people. It is not of much moment which of the two readings above noted is followed, as in either case it is the deliverance of Judah as preceding that of Jerusalem that is intimated. This should be in order to preclude any exaltation of itself by the capital or its princes over the nation at large. "The splendour (***, beauty, magnificence, glory, not boasting here) of the house of David," is the glory and honour which God should put upon Zerubbabel, in whom the royal line was continued (cf. Hag. ii. 20-23 ; Zech. iv. 6-10, 14); and "the splendour of the inhabitants of Jerusalem" is the dignity and honour which rested on that city because of God's habitation there, and the glory that should come upon it from this (cf. i. 16, ii. 8-13). The general purport of this announcement is that the whole covenant nation should participate in the salvation of the Lord alike, and that this should be brought about by the country at large being delivered sooner than the metropolis, so that the latter should have no vocation to lift itself up above the former, but both should rejoice together in that salvation which the Lord had brought.
Through the assault of the heathen powers Jerusalem was plunged in conflict; but, endowed with marvellous strength, she should be able to resist all their efforts and ultimately to overcome and destroy them. "In that day shall the Lord protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them in that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of Jehovah before them" (ver. 8). Jerusalem was the city of God, the place of His habitation, and over it He would watch with constant care to protect it from all harm (cf. 2 Kings xix. 34, xx. 6; Isa. xxxi. 5, xxxvii. 35, &c.). In it there were some who were weak; some who through weakness could not stand steady on their feet, but stumbled (hannikshal) (1 Sam. ii. 4). These, when God came to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, should be as David, strong and brave and potent as was He, the great hero of their nation (cf. I Sam. xvi. 18; 2 Sam. xvii. 18; I Chron. xiv. 17). And whilst the weak should thus be made strong, they that were already strong and powerful, "the house of David," the chiefs and leaders of the people, should be endowed with supernatural might; they should be as God, mighty as the angel of Jehovah who went up with Israel out of Egypt, discomfited their enemies and led them through the wilderness to the promised land (Ex. xxiii. 20 ff.; Josh. v. 13 ff.; Ps. cvi. 9, 10). "The general meaning is that the Lord God will strengthen the weakest and give additional elevation, honour, and influence to the highest, and add divinely to the might of the mightiest, so that no opposing power shall ever stand before them, any more than when that Divine angel of the covenant was commissioned to be their conductor and guardian, of whom Jehovah said, My Name is in Him" (Wardlaw). And whilst God thus endows His people with strength, He will come forth against their enemies and seek to destroy them (ver. 9). God here speaks after the manner of men. He says that He will seek to destroy the enemies of Jerusalem, to indicate that this was His determined purpose, that on which He was bent and which He certainly would effect.
Doug
The events described in Zechariah 12:3-7 apply to the church, under the figure of the city of Jerusalem, when it is under siege by many invaders.
Zechariah 12:3-4
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
"Horses:" People with no understanding, [Psa. 32:9] or those who are carnally minded. [Jer. 5:8]
"Blindness:" Refers to spiritual blindness. [John 12:40; Rom. 11:8, 10]
Zechariah 12:5
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
"Governors of Judah:" Teachers and leaders in the church. [1 Cor. 12:28]
"Inhabitants of Jerusalem:" Saints who have gone before, like the Apostles, whose names are included in the New Jerusalem. [Rev. 21:14]
Zechariah 12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
The people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
"Devouring" is also seen here:
Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Zechariah 12:7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
"The tents of Judah:" Saints alive on the earth.
"Inhabitants of Jerusalem:" Saints of previous centuries, who now await the resurrection. They are included in the New Jerusalem which is being prepared to come down from heaven to earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.
This fits the idea seen in Zech. 14:7 of the day of darkness and clouds, that becomes light at evening; and the parable of the tares, where Jesus said, after the tares are removed;
Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Doug
21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
--Luke 14
"filled"
G1072
γεμίζω
gemizō
ghem-id'-zo
Transitive from G1073; to fill entirely: - fill (be) full.
13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
--Luke 4
"fulfilled"
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Quote from: DougThe people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
There's something really important going on here.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believe... in that day.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
Why did he say he had come only for the lost sheep of Israel? And, yet Paul says it is the Gentiles who will receive the gifts and mysteries of God, not Israel.
First we must understand what is meant by a Jew and what is meant by Israel...
the Jews are descendants from the House of Judah (ie Judah, Benjamin, Levi) which formed the southern kingdom after the split of the 12 tribes of Israel and were the only descendants of the whole of Israel that returned to the land, after being held captive for 70 years under Babylonian rule
The House of Judah was ruled by the kings and tribe of Judah, being descendants of David
The northern kingdom after the split of the 12 tribes, was known as the House of Israel and was ruled by the House of Joseph (ie Ephraim)
After the House of Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians, they were assimilated into the so-called Gentile nations and never returned to their land of origin...the Bible tells us that they were "lost into the nations unto this day"
So, "the Gentiles" and "the lost sheep of Israel" is technically speaking, the very same thing...
Further, we must remember that when Jacob died, he gave specific blessings to each of his 12 sons...
to Judah he gave the scepter and said that he would rule over his brothers "until Shiloh comes"...Judah would be king until someone bigger than himself would claim the title as king
to Joseph (ie Ephraim and Manasseh) he gave his covenant name, Israel - and all the covenant promises that God made with Abraham and Isaac, which includes the Kingdom (ie the fruitfulness mandate)..."Joseph will be a fruitfull bough"
thus according to Jacob's blessings, the King of Israel would be of the House of Judah and the Kingdom would reside in the House of Joseph
the OT prophets talked about the reunification of the whole house of Israel one day...ie when the staff of Judah and the staff of Israel will be joined together again as one staff in God's hand
the only person that can rightfully and righteously do this, is Jesus
Therefore, Jesus' first coming was to come as the King of the Jews (ie Judah - descended from the House of David)...to rightfully claim the throne of Judah/David...
Also to note is that David was king over the whole Israel unlike some of the other Judaic kings...David was also a king/priest, thus making him from the Melchizediakan order (the priestly order of Jesus) and NOT the Aaronic priestly order of the Levites...
David took over this mantle when he took Jerusalem from the Jebusites, of which the original King Melchizedek (ie Shem himself), was the founder of
the first work of Jesus is also reflected in the Feasts of Israel which was fulfilled by Him ie to name a few...Day of Atonement (His baptism and sending into the desert to be tempted), Passover (Him being crucified as the Lamb of God), Pentecost (when His Holy Spirit was sent to his followers and they preached the Gospel to all who was gathered in Jerusalem for the feast...many of whom were descendants of the northern tribes "lost sheep of Israel" but were now speaking Gentile languages after being assimilated into the nations)
the coming again of Jesus would be to gather and reunite the whole House of Israel...the ten tribes of the northern kingdom ("lost sheep"/Gentiles) with the southern kingdom (Jews)...the King reunited with His Kingdom
this is also reflected in the Feasts of Israel in the form of the Feast of Trumpets and especially the Feast of Tabernacles, which Jesus still need to fulfill...
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2009, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: DougThe people round about being "devoured" by fire pictures the word of God, and the fiery judgment of God's word upon the enemies of the saints. It burns up false beliefs like chaff.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
There's something really important going on here.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believe... in that day.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
In Zech. 12:3, Jerusalem is called a "burdensome stone for all people."
This "stone" refers to the stone cut without hands in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, in Dan. 2, that smote the image on the feet, and grew to become a great mountain that filled the entire earth. It represents Christ and his church.
Dan 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. So Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]
When Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King" [Mat. 5:35] he referred to the heavenly city, not the earthly one, which was "a shadow of good things to come" like other things in the OT. And similarly Jesus referred to his followers as a "city that is set on an hill."
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.Doug
Quote from: Taffy on December 15, 2009, 02:56:40 AM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 15, 2009, 02:14:55 AM
Card: my comment about astrologer must have been my confusion, when you talked about A. Loudy saying or doing something about moon cycles or Lunar covenant.
I have to ask, Do you not know that "YOU" are an angel of God? simple : yes or no... The only meaning of a bible angel is a messenger.... when you speak, your giving a message. If your message gives the hearer life, you are an angel of light/God, If you message gives the hearer death, you are an angel of Darkness/death. Peroid.... end of story
Now as for lost sheep of "before" the rezz of JC. The new birth is found only in the Circumcision writings and has its application to the sons of Israel because of "[ their covenant relationship with Jehovah their God.]" Theirs was " the sonship" (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1-4; Rom. 9:4, Greek), from which they strayed and became "prodigals" (Lost son parable, Lk. 15:11-24) and Matt. 15:24) For them to enter the kingdom of (not heaven), God and enjoy their sonship again, they must be "begotten anew" or "born again" by the water and the Spirit ( John 3:3-8; Eze. 36:22-36) It applies strictly to Israel and concerns their earthy salvation and allotment in a future day of restoration ( Isa. 66:7-9; John 3:2, 10-12; Eze. 36:22-36
After Rezz day or about Acts 28:28
On the other hand, Gentiles, who NEVER had any sonship, are aliens, without hope and God in the world ( Acts 14:16; 17:24-28; Eph. 2:11-12). By His grace through faith, they receive the adoption of sons and are made members of Gods family (Eph. 1:5; 2:11-19; Rom. 8:15,23). Paul alone speaks of sonship by adoption, and salvation with an allotment of glory in the heavens ( Eph. 1:3-5; Phil 3:20).
Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
I suppose these too were ALL Gentiles slaves \ servant UNDER LAW to a SON of FAITH,...The Child of Promise,BORN a100 yrs
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
we are ONE in HIM, the spirit united with the soul...it starts In Genesis, ADAM [ Spirit] Eve [soul] , Man[ spirit] wife[ soul ], ill stop cause im just going to repeat what a few others have already shown
Yes the Gentiles were under the bondage of the elements of the world. The law declared them Gentiles.
This ended at the end of the old covenant in AD 70.
There is no further covenant to establish Jew and Gentile.
During the changeover of the covenants those "in Christ" were then already practicing the applied meaning of this coming fullness.
This is the "ONENESS" in question.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: DougSo Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]
So the Jews under the law, born naturally, were the children of the slave woman?
And, the Gentiles under grace, born from above, are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise?
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.--Gal 4
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2009, 05:11:54 PM
Quote from: DougSo Zechariah identifies Jerusalem with the kingdom of God, and the church, rather than the earthly city, that Paul said was in bondage, and identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Gal. 4:24-25]
So the Jews under the law, born naturally, were the children of the slave woman?
And, the Gentiles under grace, born from above, are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise?
More precisely, believers, both Jews and Gentiles, are under grace, and are born from above, and are the children of the free woman--the children of the promise.
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2009, 05:11:54 PM
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
--Gal 4
The
Jerusalem of prophecy is not the earthly one! Peter said of the prophets, "not unto themselves, but
unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:12]
Doug
Quote from: DougThe Jerusalem of prophecy is not the earthly one! Peter said of the prophets, "not unto themselves, but unto us
they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Pet. 1:12]
This says that the Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ--
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. --1 Pet 1
And it was revealed to them that they were ministering to the Apostles [who were to come]--
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you... --1 Pet 1
on our behalf--
by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. --1 Pet 1
When you read it in the Greek it is like it is all happening in real time, the Prophets ministering to the Apostles via [dia] the Holy Spirit that they might likewise minister to us. It gave me chills.
10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.--Eph 3:10
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER.
A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...
You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian , But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.
I consider A. E. Knoch to be in my choice of top ten Christians of the 20th Century. Nevertheless, I don't agree with his extreme racial dispensationalism (ie., dipSinsationalism.) He was a friend of E. W. Bullinger in the early days of his work with Scripture. Bullinger is known as a hyper-dispensationalist. It seems Knoch could be labeled the same. I'm open to being proven wrong. I do have an understanding of the dispensational doctrine; but, in no way would I equate that with, "...knowledge of understanding of God's word," if that is what you meant by that phrase. I'm not sure what you mean by not accepting the rebuilding of the wall of partition, which is what modern dispensationalism does. For instance, John Hagee definitely teaches two ways of salvation: the Mosaic Covenant for today's Jews and Jesus as Messiah to the Gentile Church.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...
And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.
To insult my presentation of Bible facts by saying it must be the result of personal embitteredness on my part greatly underestimates the reality of the situation. The political trends in the USA that follow the popular media, both written (newspapers and magazines) as well as visual forms (television and movies) are moving into a position to persecute the Church. This is the specific result of believers abandoning the civil sphere of life to the devil and his minions because of the doctrinal influence of dispensationalism. Hal Lindsey in
The Road to Holocaust, which he wrote following
The Late Great Planet Earth, labors to prove that applying the value system taught in God's Law Word to our legislative process would bring about another holocaust like occured in Germany. Understand, if you are seeking to have a culture founded in God's word Hal Lindsey says you are trying to do what the Nazis did. If you don't know what a false teacher is I give you Hal Linsey as a contemporary example. Against the Scripture, against those whose wisdom is from God, against Christ, a liar fomenting the persecution of the Church...though one among many, he's an unfortunate deceiver of those who might otherwise be followers of Jesus. I could list names and quotations of many in our day who are similar posers who teach from this relatively new tradition rather than by revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.
But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.
Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.
The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5
Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...
Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.
Matt. 15:24 Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"
and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.
Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...
What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????
It is those that follow Jesus that have the light of life. If we keep His word then we are His disciples indeed, and we will know the truth and the truth will us be freeing. Initially Jesus came, not to the rest of the world, but as a prophet and teacher to Israel. This was before He died to his Adamic humanity and was raised a new kind of human. He still makes a distinction between those following Him and those who are stubborn against the truth.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.
Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX" the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time. I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision
Molly, Thanks for you help and support .
ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.
But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.
I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.
Lee.
If I could afford it I would have as a resource of great spiritual wealth all issues of "Unsearchable Riches" in bound volumes as was available from Concordant Publishing Concern (and, I think it was also from perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com (http://perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com).) A truly marvelous magazine. I have books by Loudy and Knoch, also the one by Marks...it isn't out of ignorance I reject dispensationalism. After Knoch's, which seem to be increasingly unavailable and may have been based on Bullinger's anyway, I think the best outlines of Scripture are found in Bullinger's
The Companion Bible. I treasure the several books and commentaries of his that I have. I just don't agree with dispensationalism.
The first verse of the New Testament, rightly understood, refutes the foundation of dispensationalism. "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." To Abraham was made the promise to inherit the entire world (cosmos) and to David is given the right to rule it.
Galatians 3:27-29 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment ("heirs," AV) according to the promise.
Let me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism. The book is
Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature. The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification. But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does. How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all. The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature. A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."
Quote from: ReformerLet me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism. The book is Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature. The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification. But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does. How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all. The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature. A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."
This is interesting, and I'm glad you brought this up. I don't know anything about the various philosophies, but I can see this present in many teachings, this idea of two men standing side by side, one good, one bad. I think it has to do with the things Paul says about having sin in his members but under no condemnation in the Spirit. How one deals with that will determine their outlook on this. If we take the Catholic church, for instance, and I only have observations from having Catholic friends, it seems that you can do anything you want as long as you go to confession--well, in the worst case, anyways, and I knew a lot of Catholics who would lead sinful lives but be reassured that confession would make it right. I also knew Catholics who were the opposite, and very devout so it can cut both ways. But, the problem is their continual emphasis on sin.
I do think people need to repent of wrongful actions [although it might not be so easy to stop, and might even take a lifetime of struggle], but I also think they should focus on Jesus, not on sin. That's just my feeling about it. It's the old golfer's trick--if you focus on the trap and are in fear of it, you will invariably hit the ball into the trap. Rather, focus on the flag, with the full assurance that when you hit that ball, it's going to land two feet from the hole. It's impossible to keep sinning if we walk daily with our Lord, and, if we do sin, we know we have such a high Priest who will make intercession for us with the One at the top. So, I don't fear sin so much as I try to do the right thing out of my love for Him--what would Jesus do? Over time this love works its way into us like yeast into dough, making the whole lump holy. He's already done all the hard work.
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Thank you reFormer: I will look into it all and I saved your reply to a word doc. for later use of my own. I still believe you to be right about 99.9% of all you said.
Will get back when I have time. Lee
Good to hear you Molly.
Also, I %100 do not agree with all that Knoch Teaches, for one I will never agree with HIS thinking is his thinking on the rapture system he puts forward in his book, The Gospel of Our Salvation.
Which persents a major problem in the Spirit that dwells in me.
Problem with what is quoted from Reformer post is the new nature is Christ does not ever sin, no if ands or buts about it........ and any doctrine that teaches otherwise is $%^&*
When Jesus said there were two men in a bed (the heart where one is to be at rest) those two are the only two men ever created and they are Adam and Christ....... one is acceptable and one is not
For any of you who might want to advocate that the new man within you can sin I would strongly suggest you go study up on the teaching of Jesus for when an unclean spirit gets the boot from the heart of a newborn babe of Jesus Christ but then returns. (Mat 12, Luke 11)
Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.
When that seed that is Christ becomes bigger and more powerful than the tree of knowledge (the two men in a bed within us) that we have all become despite whether that knowledge is good or evil then and only then will a mature Christ rule in and from our hearts 24/7
One thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us is all the man made garbage that is taught the vast majority of the time .............. and that is somethingh you can bet the farm on.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: reFORMer on December 16, 2009, 06:15:23 AM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
reFormer:
I do not except the rebuilding of the WALL of partition EITHER.
A.E. Knock, Founder and absolute German Maker of the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, and he teaches IN DEPTH knowledge of the two systems and how they relate to mankind today, but the two ARE ONE NOW, although knowing what words mean, just gives understanding to the LEARNER , "NOT" septeration ...
You use the nasty word often, dispensationalism: you might as well call me a F-en afro-amercian , But don't be bothered, I am not offended by any persons lack of knowledge in understanding God's word.
I consider A. E. Knoch to be in my choice of top ten Christians of the 20th Century. Nevertheless, I don't agree with his extreme racial dispensationalism (ie., dipSinsationalism.) He was a friend of E. W. Bullinger in the early days of his work with Scripture. Bullinger is known as a hyper-dispensationalist. It seems Knoch could be labeled the same. I'm open to being proven wrong. I do have an understanding of the dispensational doctrine; but, in no way would I equate that with, "...knowledge of understanding of God's word," if that is what you meant by that phrase. I'm not sure what you mean by not accepting the rebuilding of the wall of partition, which is what modern dispensationalism does. For instance, John Hagee definitely teaches two ways of salvation: the Mosaic Covenant for today's Jews and Jesus as Messiah to the Gentile Church.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
Knowledge taught by the Concordant Literal Version IS GOOD knowledge...
And no, I don't like that word because of what it "alledgelly means to you. I am sorry if those kinds of people hurt you in any way.
To insult my presentation of Bible facts by saying it must be the result of personal embitteredness on my part greatly underestimates the reality of the situation. The political trends in the USA that follow the popular media, both written (newspapers and magazines) as well as visual forms (television and movies) are moving into a position to persecute the Church. This is the specific result of believers abandoning the civil sphere of life to the devil and his minions because of the doctrinal influence of dispensationalism. Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, which he wrote following The Late Great Planet Earth, labors to prove that applying the value system taught in God's Law Word to our legislative process would bring about another holocaust like occured in Germany. Understand, if you are seeking to have a culture founded in God's word Hal Lindsey says you are trying to do what the Nazis did. If you don't know what a false teacher is I give you Hal Linsey as a contemporary example. Against the Scripture, against those whose wisdom is from God, against Christ, a liar fomenting the persecution of the Church...though one among many, he's an unfortunate deceiver of those who might otherwise be followers of Jesus. I could list names and quotations of many in our day who are similar posers who teach from this relatively new tradition rather than by revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
But Knowledge WILL SET YOU AND ME FREE.
But like most things, there is there is more than one side to things.
Knowledge CAN also Destroy and Bind people.
Like IF you teach that there WAS NEVER TWO SYSTEMS
You are believing and teaching a lie. Because there "was" a system that excluded all human kind outside of Israel, all "was" dung ( Shit ), sorry I don't like making things polictically correct.
The only SINNERS were of the house of Israel. Gentiles "Were" not considered sinners at that time. Because they "were" not in the equaision. At the time the books were written. unless you mix the books up and put Gentiles in where they don't belong. little example which I "know" you really don't need this example, I am putting it is for the others, Matt.10:5
Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, ...
But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...
Saying the Kingdom of Heaven IS at Hand.
Matt. 15:24 Red Letter words, " I am not sent , BUT to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel"
and remember this, all others "were" dogs, crap, nothing at the time.
Red letter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs...
What dogs do you think He is talking about ????????
It is those that follow Jesus that have the light of life. If we keep His word then we are His disciples indeed, and we will know the truth and the truth will us be freeing. Initially Jesus came, not to the rest of the world, but as a prophet and teacher to Israel. This was before He died to his Adamic humanity and was raised a new kind of human. He still makes a distinction between those following Him and those who are stubborn against the truth.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 14, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
so to end this reFormer, I believe you are Right. I am just avocating that we know when where and How we Became Members of this Group of Peoples.
Once you to the above paragraph, God Willing, we will never "MIX" the two Peoples ever again, this is very hard if you don't even know that a division "was" absolutly imparitive...at the time. I am :bdh: :pitiful: very sorry that I use the words that rub you way the wrong way Circumcision and UNCircumcision
Molly, Thanks for you help and support .
ANYONE, THAT WANTS TO USE MY BOOKS, I WILL MAIL THEM TO YOU IF YOU PROMISE TO MAIL THEM BACK.
But most importain, reFormer, I know in my heart that you don't want to see or hear these word that will fill you with so much "more" love of Scriptures, in A.E. Knoch's belief system { Concordant Publishing Concern Co. }, But I "personally wish you could read them because they open up peoples understanding so much when we know some basic facts of truth, and not get stimulated by a few words that the reader miss understands when used in proper contex.
I do have great respect for "you", even tho I do see that YOU have built a wall with that thing that rubs you the wrong way, and are not even close to ready to see and hear this "thing", that does the opposit of destroys.
Lee.
If I could afford it I would have as a resource of great spiritual wealth all issues of "Unsearchable Riches" in bound volumes as was available from Concordant Publishing Concern (and, I think it was also from perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com (http://perfectgraceministries@yahoo.com).) A truly marvelous magazine. I have books by Loudy and Knoch, also the one by Marks...it isn't out of ignorance I reject dispensationalism. After Knoch's, which seem to be increasingly unavailable and may have been based on Bullinger's anyway, I think the best outlines of Scripture are found in Bullinger's The Companion Bible. I treasure the several books and commentaries of his that I have. I just don't agree with dispensationalism.
The first verse of the New Testament, rightly understood, refutes the foundation of dispensationalism. "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." To Abraham was made the promise to inherit the entire world (cosmos) and to David is given the right to rule it.
Galatians 3:27-29 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment ("heirs," AV) according to the promise.
Let me leave you with a quote from a book I very much recommend that illustrates the antinomian delusion of dispensationalism. The book is Wrongly Dividing The Word Of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John Gerstner (Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishsers, Inc.) p.249:
"[Dispensationalism] believes that regeneration brings a new divine nature that is separate from the old nature and unaffected by it, and that justification applies only to this new nature. The old nature contines to sin, and indeed, does nothing but sin, because it is utterly unaffected by sanctification. But since the dispensationalists do not really believe in the salvation of the sinner (who desperately needs it), but only of the saint (who as a part of God does not need it), he does not care what this old nature does. How the old nature behaves does not affect the "salvation" of the new nature at all. The old nature may violate the law of God all the day long, but that does not affect the new nature. A person may actually have the old nature operating all the time in the business of sin and nothing but sin, but, since it is the old nature, it does not affect his salvation."
I very much enjoyed this post Reformer.
If it is not too obliging on my behalf, could you please explain the difference that you see between Christ's "Adamic humanity and" and "was raised a new kind of human".
What did Christ die to?
What is an Adanic human?
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Livelystone on December 16, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.
:cloud9: AMEN
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
--John 17
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
--Luke 1
# 1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
# 2 Corinthians 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Can it be had in this life or after we leave this world by being put in the ground ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
The immortality in question is not per a physical resurrection. The grave is the grave of sin. The death is that of sin death.
The death that Adam brought is not physical death at all. And such is clearly not the context.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation
Christ has put and end to the liability of sin separation. Praise God for his loving kindness!
Let us gather together in the consciousness of His love which is without condition.
JMO
Blessings Barry
I die daily so that He may Live, Not I but Christ.
36 And the enemies of a man are those of his household.
Dear Beloved, (and that you are)
In regards to my previous post about resurrection out of sin death, I was wondering what dieing daily and enemies within one's household had in common as a train of thought.
My apologies as I'm unable to connect the dot's.
I thought that maybe you considered me your enemy but that was only a fleeting thought that may be really way off base but being human I have those.
I hope that this doesn't put you on the spot, I'm just trying to comprehend your posts.
My concern is if I'm considered any one's enemy "here" I really need to vacate the premises.
If my challenge to the premise of some here that humanity is created corrupt, through the Father so that the Son has to fix it all is regarded as nothing but intolerable opposition then I don't really need to be here. Of that I'm sure.
Any member or any moderator or any administrator may PM me at any point and ask me to leave. And it will be done immediately.
This is the age of the Internet after all. Thank you Lord!
I for myself, I stand in God's love without condition for all. Unless someone shows me something to the contrary which is of substance that is where I will continue to reside.
What I'm interested in then is the view of what some here mean in regards to Christ being alive "yet I am dead", and what that means in regards to the resurrection. For the biblical futurist here, when resurrected is that you who are still dead and Christ alive and if so what does that mean exactly?
Blessings Barry
Barry: That has been the Issue thus far "I believe" (your last paragraph ), and that is where a lot of UR people differ.
I believe that sense the Ressurection of God's Christ, ALL are in Christ, All have been MADE Alive, ALL no longer sin, ALL are living in the tree of life. {Death Destroyed} done kaput.
when sin is used in any of Paul's books, he is telling a story of how it "was" when the past system was in use. [ The Law system ] All are in the new life in Christ. So I need to ask my self if Hitler is in a Celestrial Heaven? or where ever.
Or others as bad as he was? So when I know that Adam dragged all Human kind into death,{the good with the bad} Christ Dragged ALL Human Kind into life,{the good with the bad} and so in the many many many ages, (eons ), in the future, Human kind on a one on one basis gets awaken by God at His will, when He sees fit, on His time table. And if it is not on this side of the grave that is ok with me. I also believe countless things (humans) can be made to acknowledge The Only Name Which Being Healed Can be had, Which is God's Christ, Jesus.
It's really not all that complicated--but somehow it becomes so...
Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Quote from: Livelystone on December 16, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
Problem with what is quoted from Reformer post is the new nature is Christ does not ever sin, no if ands or buts about it........ and any doctrine that teaches otherwise is $%^&*
When Jesus said there were two men in a bed (the heart where one is to be at rest) those two are the only two men ever created and they are Adam and Christ....... one is acceptable and one is not
For any of you who might want to advocate that the new man within you can sin I would strongly suggest you go study up on the teaching of Jesus for when an unclean spirit gets the boot from the heart of a newborn babe of Jesus Christ but then returns. (Mat 12, Luke 11)
Christ is a seed that will not increase its size at all let alone into the full statue of the tree of life that is Christ Jesus from anything else but by "mana from heaven" that is the daily bread that we are taught to pray for while we ARE ALL still on our wilderness journey where the old man is to die.
When that seed that is Christ becomes bigger and more powerful than the tree of knowledge (the two men in a bed within us) that we have all become despite whether that knowledge is good or evil then and only then will a mature Christ rule in and from our hearts 24/7
One thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us is all the man made garbage that is taught the vast majority of the time .............. and that is somethingh you can bet the farm on.
Blessings
Doug
I believe what has also been my experience, that, "Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." (1 Jn 3:9, CLT) My spirit is regenerated in union with the Spirit of God that is making manifest God ato my awareness. The previous thoughts and emotions were serving the flesh's lust, the devil's plan and the world's ways. This always fresh light of the presence of God judges the carnal man and, however haltingly, I persist in following after the Spirit. Increasingly I am coming to be in accord with the Spirit. But, it is through a process of being subject to sin and yet waring against its control in my bodies parts. "For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice. Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me." (Romans 7:19-20, CLT) For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within, yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:22-23, CLT) My transfer by God into the realm ruled by the son of His love is being followed up with the stumbler that I am becoming more repulsed by sin because of the judgements God puts me through and my increasing rest in obedience to the will of the Spirit. So increasingly The Spirit is manifesting the God of Jesus and His power and character in me. I'm coming into the satifaction of the rest of faith.
Another "thing that will cause the seed of Christ to remain nothing more than a seed within us" (to quote your phrase Doug) is to focus on the flesh nature developed in the world of the seed body descended from Adam. Though the new nature of Christ as a quickening Spirit has beem implanted in it and it will metamorphosis in the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, we still carry this embodiment around expecting ("in hope of" AV) the glory of God. Molly brought out this point as quoted following. Perhaps I should have continued to explain the similarity of dispensationalism with certain aspects of gnosticism. They considered the true self to be the spark of life rather than the body containing it. The body was treated by them almost as many Hindus do. It's an illusion to be transcended and not trapped in. So far this sounds almost Christian; but, the incarnation and resurrection changes the way we look at even the body of flesh. The earliest form of teaching expressed in what has been called "The Apostle's Creed," which is the earliest creed, confesses "the resurrection of the flesh" rather than "the resurrection of the body" which is usually said today.
(As well, that Jesus went to hell, preached the good news to all of that realm and lead captivity captive as He raised from the dead was a very important doctrine to the earliest church. That Jesus Christ "was crucified, dead, and buried;" then, "Descended into hell..." has been removed from most confessions. To know that the potter continues His work beyond death, that death does not determine destiny, and, as Jesus said, "He that believes in me, though he was dead, yet shall he live," has been rejected by most evangelical churches. That Jesus, "Descended into hell" is not in most forms of the creeds used today. Because so many, even if they know how to read, still do not read the Bible, it makes creedal confessions all the more important even in our contemporary world.)
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2009, 12:54:19 PM
I do think people need to repent of wrongful actions [although it might not be so easy to stop, and might even take a lifetime of struggle], but I also think they should focus on Jesus, not on sin. That's just my feeling about it. It's the old golfer's trick--if you focus on the trap and are in fear of it, you will invariably hit the ball into the trap. Rather, focus on the flag, with the full assurance that when you hit that ball, it's going to land two feet from the hole. It's impossible to keep sinning if we walk daily with our Lord, and, if we do sin, we know we have such a high Priest who will make intercession for us with the One at the top. So, I don't fear sin so much as I try to do the right thing out of my love for Him--what would Jesus do? Over time this love works its way into us like yeast into dough, making the whole lump holy. He's already done all the hard work.
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The point that, "...it might even take a lifetime of struggle," as Molly said, is very important. Self discipline is part of the fruit or harvest of the spirit. Devoted thoughts, much passion and many deeds are often put into our sins. We didn't get into it overnight, and normally won't get out of it overnight. Paul explains that our bodies are going to be slaves of whatever we give ourselves over to:
Romans 6:16-17 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
16 Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
Liberty from sin can be taught. We must not center on our change. We are continuing incarnate, meaning, "in the flesh," until the time appointed by the Father. But that, "Death is swallowed up in victory" means we are going to do the gulping down of death, we who after the inner man of the heart are overcoming everything that destroys mankind. The water of life flows out of our temples from the innermost chambers. Victory is not ignoring the undisloged sin, but mastering it by eating His flesh, partaking of His holy identity in it and drinking His blood, swallowing that invigorating supply of the soul of Christ. Being filled with Him we are overwhelmed by a nature that death can no more touch and for whom sin bears no attraction. Many give up because they don't see an expected change in their carnal lusts. There must be something beyond the denying of self, but it only comes with patient persistence.
The finishing work is not about our change; but, it is about His presence. The finishing work means the motions of sin in our members are never indulged, only ignored or eliminated, the work done in our not thinking according to sin, no e-motioning from sin's enticements, no will to concieve sin because we are receiving "incorruptible" life.
Romans 6:18-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
19 As a man am I saying this,
because of the infirmity of your flesh. For even as you present your members as slaves to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness, thus now present your members as slaves to Righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of Sin, you were free as to Righteousness.
"Because of the weakness of your flesh" your body is brought into captivity, slaving to its master. We are either disposed to the flesh or are given over to the Spirit. We who have the seed of God enslave the flesh and become free from the other masters that we have known. That anointing we have recieved of the Holy is doing a quick work and cutting it short in righteousness.
Romans 6:6-14 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
6 knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin,
7 for one
who dies has been justified from Sin.
8 Now if we died together with Christ, we believe that we shall be living together with Him also,
9 having
perceived that Christ, being roused from among the dead, is no longer dying. Death is lording it over Him no longer,
10 for in that He died, He died to Sin once for all time, yet in that He is living, He is living to God.
11 Thus you also,
be reckoning yourselves to be dead, indeed, to Sin, yet living to God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
12
Let not Sin, then, be reigning in your mortal body, for you to be obeying its lusts.
13
Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God.
14 For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2009, 07:17:51 AM
It's really not all that complicated--but somehow it becomes so...
Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
I agree.
Quote Reformer emphasis mine:
I believe what has also been my experience, that, "Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." (1 Jn 3:9, CLT) My spirit is regenerated in union with the Spirit of God that is making manifest God ato my awareness. The previous thoughts and emotions were serving the flesh's lust, the devil's plan and the world's ways. This always fresh light of the presence of God judges the carnal man and, however haltingly, I persist in following after the Spirit. Increasingly I am coming to be in accord with the Spirit. But, it is through a process of being subject to sin and yet waring against its control in my bodies parts. "For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice. Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me." (Romans 7:19-20, CLT) For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within, yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:22-23, CLT) My transfer by God into the realm ruled by the son of His love is being followed up with the stumbler that I am becoming more repulsed by sin because of the judgements God puts me through and my increasing rest in obedience to the will of the Spirit. So increasingly The Spirit is manifesting the God of Jesus and His power and character in me. I'm coming into the satifaction of the rest of faith.
End quote.
Hey Reformer.
Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul as a Christian knowing Christ. Nothing at all.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord {that I am no longer under a servitude to the law for righteousness}. So then {as a concluding remark to all of what I have just said about being in the flesh under the law} with the mind I myself serve the law of God {as a desire to please him with can never be attained to in the flesh, and so then}; but with the flesh the law of sin.
7:25 is the transition of thought from "flesh" to "spirit". From "law" to "Grace". It's just a crying shame (imo) how badly this verse is taken out of its context.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.
It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.
Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.
God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.
Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.
Phl 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
And that is what they were working through in this transition of the covenant ages.
JMO
Barry
:cloud9: Barry, part of the reason your arguments are falling on some deaf ears here, is some of us have EXPERIENCED the LIVING WORD being fulfilled in our midst, ie. it's not a book to know mentally only, it's a book that illicits change in our innermost being, working itself outward, with signs and wonders following. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Blessings.....
true...
if the Holy spirit had not called me out of Babylon some
12 years ago.I might have beleived your premise that she was
already destroyed.That she didn't exist in my era.
what are we doing here Barry? why are we not in the pews of
Christendom?
what have we been called out of?
Rev 17; 3 then the angel carried me away in the spirit
into a desert.There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blaspeous names,and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet
......she held a golden cup in her hand,filled with abominable things,and the filth of her adulteries
why are you astonished..I WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU THE
MYSTERY OF THE WOMAN AND THE BEAST SHE RIDES
THE BEAST WHICH YOU SAW...ONCE WAS[past]...NOW IS NOT
[PRESENT] AND WILL[future] COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS
AND GO TO IT'S DESTRUCTION
REV 18;4 COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE,
so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not
receive any of her plagues.....again....why are we here?
who has called us out? what have we been called out of?
is the beast captured and has it gone off into the secound
death, the false prophet..are they in the lake of fire
are they obliterated in the earth.?
are we not expierencing these very things, now?
Quote from: BarryRom 8:1 [There is] therefore now
no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.
It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.
Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.
God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.
I like that way of putting it, if I'm understanding you correctly. That's my biggest problem--to stop trying to do it by myself. God wants the glory and wants ceaseless relationship with us. The problem is not our ego, but that our ego wants to do it all by itself and for itself.
I don't like that word, ego, but since everyone knows what it means, I'll use it also to mean the self-centered, self-aggrandizing Self. But, as we put that to rest and stand aside and watch Jesus in action in our lives, our eyes get big and our jaws drop in surprise and delight, and it is no longer all about our ego, but all about Him.
Yeah, I always remember that little thing... EGO = easing God out.
Some people roll their eyes and laugh. But y'know I think it's rather true. I think part of this life is us realizing that we need our Creator. We think we can depend solely on ourselves but reality is we need Him. Realizing this.. makes you just cling to Him more and more. Especially when you start to fathom His love for us... :HeartThrob: To say it's humbling is putting it mildly. I have this little thing taped to my computer "The nearer beings are to God, the more humble they are; and the farther from Him, the prouder." I think it's true in that His love just humbles you. (The nearer you are, in this case... to me means you understand more and more His love for us!) and it leaves you in awe. It's not that you are humbled in fear :sigh: like most of Christendom will have you be humbled, but just humbled by His immense and unfathomable love. :HeartThrob: Hope that makes sense.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2009, 04:11:52 PM
:cloud9: Barry, part of the reason your arguments are falling on some deaf ears here, is some of us have EXPERIENCED the LIVING WORD being fulfilled in our midst, ie. it's not a book to know mentally only, it's a book that illicits change in our innermost being, working itself outward, with signs and wonders following. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Blessings.....
Who said anything about knowing it mentally only?
Not I!
A person that knows both in mind and in heart they are loved without condition and that everyone else is too, need not fall prey to another with an
interpretation of a religious experience.
There is often a vast difference between an experience and an interpretation thereof. There is often a vast difference between what the revelation was actually in its simplicity and what people make of it through their filtering process.
So the point remains.
What was Paul dying to and can you show it?
Example:
The flesh profits nothing does not mean that being human profits nothing. It meant that one's own self imposed independent potential to be something gets in the way of just knowing you are loved. That was the "in the flesh" that Paul was dieing to.
Jhn 1:17 For the
law was given by Moses, [but]
grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth;
the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
To confuse and misappropriate what they were actually dieing to often leads to the exasperating of others as they try to die in ways that they will never succeed at. Always struggling and never free.
Love is the only transforming mechanism that we need. Just too simple I suppose.
Love is the only bonding mechanism that we need.
Love is our fellowship. Not doctrines of impossible deaths.
Our worth and value is a gift. The love of God is our gift.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2009, 07:09:49 PM
Quote from: BarryRom 8:1 [There is] therefore now
no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Paul is speaking of the difference between what he WAS and what then WAS. Please, don't mix the two or combine the two.
It is my opinion that a very grave mistake is being made here in interpreting what "dieing to self" means scripturally speaking! And that within the transition of the ages from the cross to AD 70. And then this very misunderstanding and misappropriation of what one thinks "dieing to self" means is then being used as an all encompassing limpness test (spelling might be wrong there, sorry) for all other understandings that are acquired.
Very similarly imo the Buddhist never really ever gets rid of his ego though he tries a life to do so. He just cannot accept that is how God made him and that God did not make a mistake that he has to now try and fix.
God had no problem with humanity at all. He has a problem with people establishing a self that cannot accept his love without condition. For there is not efficacy in that self. And so that was Paul's understanding of "in the flesh". In an independent human potential.
That's what Paul was dieing to and that that's what transformed his life into a loving caring sacrificial person.
I like that way of putting it, if I'm understanding you correctly. That's my biggest problem--to stop trying to do it by myself. God wants the glory and wants ceaseless relationship with us. The problem is not our ego, but that our ego wants to do it all by itself and for itself.
I don't like that word, ego, but since everyone knows what it means, I'll use it also to mean the self-centered, self-aggrandizing Self. But, as we put that to rest and stand aside and watch Jesus in action in our lives, our eyes get big and our jaws drop in surprise and delight, and it is no longer all about our ego, but all about Him.
Very good Molly!
The problem is not our ego. The problem is what gets attached to it. Which is doctrines of attainment. That then became the "self" they had to die to. Thus attaining to the resurrection by dieing to that self.
We got the whole meaning of "Attaining" wrong!
We might read a scripture like, "Work out your own salvation" and think they were working out their own salvation. Wrong!
It meant that the Jews had to work though this false attaining process differently than the Gentile had to work though theirs. Thus to attain to the resurrection by dieing to the false attaining doctrines which attached to their egos.
Hope I make sense LOL!
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 17, 2009, 07:33:59 PM
The problem is not our ego. The problem is what gets attached to it. Which is doctrines of attainment. That then became the "self" they had to die to.
ahh interesting. I can see this.
what has self-attainment got to do with following His Holy
spirit? Have we, who have been called out of Babylon,and had
the salvation of all men declared to us..done it of our own
attainment? Was this not a work of the Holy spirit done
for us..in us.?
2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death
But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God
HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....
and HE WILL DELIVER US
ON Him we have set our hope...
THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US
Regarding this, is it possible for the written scriptures to still be relevant and fulfill it's purpose for being written even if it is all fulfilled in the historical sense? Or to put it another way, if it is fulfilled historically, does that make those writings now meaningless to anyone living after that?
Ron
I need not fall to your 'INTERPRETATION" of
REVELATIONS,EITHER.BARRY
it normally falls into four groups...[four corners of heaven and
earth] INCLUDED IN THAT HOLY CITY
1] preterists understand the book exclusively in terms of it's
first century setting, claiming that most of it's events have
already taken place
2] Historicists take it as describing the long chain of events
from Patmos to the end of history
3] Futurists place the book primarily in the end times
4] Idealists veiw it as symbolic pictures of such timeless
truths as the victory of Good over Evil
you have no authority to condemn those who do not hold to
your veiw of Revelations as a preterists.
when you have spiritually slain those who here have another
veiwpoint, I ask, will you go on after the others.?
the partial preterists ,perhaps?
It matters not to me..that you judge me..it is of no
consequence .
what part of your message of unconditional love are you
desiring to show me? Is having a preterist veiw of Revelations
a requirement for this unconditional love you are showing to us?
Let's see..I can have that unconditional love if I am an atheist
an unbeleiver, a muslim,jew sinner,harlot...but not if I do not
agree with your preterist veiw?
For if I continue to follow the Holy spirit,after knowing that all
are saved..I am nothing more than an egoist,trying to attain
something for myself[my own righteousness?]
why are any of us here?
Quote from: sheila on December 17, 2009, 07:53:26 PM
2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death
But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God
HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....
and HE WILL DELIVER US
ON Him we have set our hope...
THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US
well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.
That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--
1Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
--Psa 127
Quote from: gregoryfl on December 17, 2009, 08:21:15 PM
Regarding this, is it possible for the written scriptures to still be relevant and fulfill it's purpose for being written even if it is all fulfilled in the historical sense? Or to put it another way, if it is fulfilled historically, does that make those writings now meaningless to anyone living after that?
Ron
We cannot have their salvation. Because they went from one age to the next.
That then becomes the relevancy to us. We don't need the then temporary doctrines of transition. We do however need to know love.
Also this affects how we view "hope". We get a lot of wrong ideas about what they really went though when we artificially extend the transition of the ages to our time and our experience. Wrong ideas about what it means to be a human. Wrong ideas about how we grow and mature. Wrong ideas about how we should see each other. And a lot of wrong ideas about binding doctrines on each other.
Also understanding the importance of accepting the historical paints a picture of God loving his creation and thus His continued agenda therein.
The implications are profound.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 17, 2009, 04:26:14 AM
Dear Beloved, (and that you are)
In regards to my previous post about resurrection out of sin death, I was wondering what dieing daily and enemies within one's household had in common as a train of thought.
My apologies as I'm unable to connect the dot's.
I thought that maybe you considered me your enemy but that was only a fleeting thought that may be really way off base but being human I have those.
I hope that this doesn't put you on the spot, I'm just trying to comprehend your posts.
My concern is if I'm considered any one's enemy "here" I really need to vacate the premises.
If my challenge to the premise of some here that humanity is created corrupt, through the Father so that the Son has to fix it all is regarded as nothing but intolerable opposition then I don't really need to be here. Of that I'm sure.
Any member or any moderator or any administrator may PM me at any point and ask me to leave. And it will be done immediately.
This is the age of the Internet after all. Thank you Lord!
I for myself, I stand in God's love without condition for all. Unless someone shows me something to the contrary which is of substance that is where I will continue to reside.
What I'm interested in then is the view of what some here mean in regards to Christ being alive "yet I am dead", and what that means in regards to the resurrection. For the biblical futurist here, when resurrected is that you who are still dead and Christ alive and if so what does that mean exactly?
Blessings Barry
Hi Barry,
While it has not been given me to teach, I can provide you with some of my teachers:
Preston Eby; Kingdom Bible Studies
Peter Demetris; Light of the City Ministries
Joyce Morris; Lord of Life Ministries
and
our own blessed, Cardinal.
Listen to her.
Thanks for the responce Beloved. I appreciate the effort.
With very few exceptions I've learned over the years to stick mostly with Jesus, Paul, John and a few others.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2009, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: sheila on December 17, 2009, 07:53:26 PM
2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death
But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God
HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....
and HE WILL DELIVER US
ON Him we have set our hope...
THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US
well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.
That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--
1Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
--Psa 127
Amen to everything in this post, both Sheila's and Molly's. I was just thinking on this today. Some may remember this http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279 (God takes good care of His artwork) from Thomas J. Kissinger. I also discussed this with Gary the other day in one of our rare conversations - the idea that our working and "pressing in" is finding that place of rest and trust in Him, so that HE does HIS works THROUGH us. I so often get in the way, struggling, trying to "work for the Lord". I remember Molly you mentioning the passage "take my yoke upon you...it is easy...I will give you rest". Feel I must continue to offer the disclaimer, I am NOT talking about living in sin and disobedience so that "grace may more abound...God forbid"...I am talking about a place of surrender and obedience to whatever HE does...I'm still pushing to get to that place. Every now and then I find it a little bit, and it's a blessed hiding place, a cleft in the Rock.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and
THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"... Eph. 2:8
Quote from: jabcat on December 18, 2009, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2009, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: sheila on December 17, 2009, 07:53:26 PM
2 Cor 1;9 indeed in our hearts we felt the sentence of death
But this happened that we might NOT rely on ourselves,but God
HE HAS delivered us from such a deadly peril....
and HE WILL DELIVER US
ON Him we have set our hope...
THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER US
well, yes, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but you have to come to a point where you realize that--that you can't add an inch to your height--that it's too big for you to do it by yourself--that HE will do it if you just stand aside.
That's what faith is--putting the burden on his shoulders--
1Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
--Psa 127
Amen to everything in this post, both Sheila's and Molly's. I was just thinking on this today. Some may remember this http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279 (God takes good care of His artwork) from Thomas J. Kissinger. I also discussed this with Gary the other day in one of our rare conversations - the idea that our working and "pressing in" is finding that place of rest and trust in Him, so that HE does HIS works THROUGH us. I so often get in the way, struggling, trying to "work for the Lord". I remember Molly you mentioning the passage "take my yoke upon you...it is easy...I will give you rest". Feel I must continue to offer the disclaimer, I am NOT talking about living in sin and disobedience so that "grace may more abound...God forbid"...I am talking about a place of surrender and obedience to whatever HE does...I'm still pushing to get to that place. Every now and then I find it a little bit, and it's a blessed hiding place, a cleft in the Rock.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"... Eph. 2:8
Great post.
Love does all that.
Insecurity is the problem so to speak. It means that someone has something to prove.
Having something to prove makes us dangerous, obliging and condemning. It promotes a mentality of placing burdens on others where we think we have some accomplishments to boast about.
When the tempter tempted Jesus it was "if you are the Son of God". IE, prove it to yourself.
This is what the Law did and what the law between the ears did for the Gentiles. When under law there is always something to prove because there is insecurity. The fear of not measuring up so to speak.
Love without condition is where transformation and growth comes naturally and continually. Where a new identity is formed as a one simply loved. Where God has grasped us and not where we must somehow grasp God.
JMO
Barry
Quote from: BarryIt promotes a mentality of placing burdens on others where we think we have some accomplishments to boast about.
When the tempter tempted Jesus it was "if you are the Son of God". IE, prove it to yourself
At the end they mocked him--
67Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"--Mat 26
This hurts me so much that I can barely process it. As if he couldn't have flattened them right then and there! The King of glory... being treated like this.....
...who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.--Heb 12
9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
--Heb 6
:HeartThrob:Barry: :dsunny: I wish I could say that I am proud of you, but "some" may think I am sinning, wish I could say, right on, and "some" may think I am a hippy, wish I could say, I Love all the words you share with me, but "some" may say that sounds gay, wish I could say, bravo ! , and "some" would interept :Book: that to mean something wrong too. :flirt:
Thank You YOU give me strength :rocker :ty:
Lee Damboise II
Are you saying there's something wrong with being a hippy? :laughing7: That's pretty heavy, man.
Ousley "Purple Haze"
Frisco/Berkely
late 60's
I was the prancing pedigreed dog
Looking in the closed-on-Sunday shop windows
lost
weed in my pipe
weedy vacant lot
the planting of the Lord
hadn't surfaced in me
yet
To me, preterism, historicism and futurism are somewhat literal interpretations because they look for something that shows up physically on the world stage. When corrected they all have some validity; but, because of where they're occuring, they are outer court, under the sun, natural understandings. The symbolic uses of Scripture, of which there are several, are more fruitfull for our relationship with God and each other. Even when something was, is or will be physically portrayed, like the mountains of Sinai or Zion, or the persons Hagar or Sarah, that does not end their meaning, as Paul indicated by His use of them for matters with which we all have to do.
Galatians 4:21-5:1 (CLT)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
5:1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.
The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it. By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter. Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin. We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice." The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing. Justice (or, "judgement" AV) is setting things right. When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust. He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgement according to the truth. We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. The Holy Scriptures already exist. But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 18, 2009, 02:14:46 AM
:HeartThrob:Barry: :dsunny: I wish I could say that I am proud of you, but "some" may think I am sinning, wish I could say, right on, and "some" may think I am a hippy, wish I could say, I Love all the words you share with me, but "some" may say that sounds gay, wish I could say, bravo ! , and "some" would interept :Book: that to mean something wrong too. :flirt:
Thank You YOU give me strength :rocker :ty:
Lee Damboise II
Hey Lee... You make me smile.
Nice post, bro.
sparrow
Quote from: reFORMer on December 18, 2009, 04:52:35 AM
To me, preterism, historicism and futurism are somewhat literal interpretations because they look for something that shows up physically on the world stage. When corrected they all have some validity; but, because of where they're occuring, they are outer court, under the sun, natural understandings. The symbolic uses of Scripture, of which there are several, are more fruitfull for our relationship with God and each other. Even when something was, is or will be physically portrayed, like the mountains of Sinai or Zion, or the persons Hagar or Sarah, that does not end their meaning, as Paul indicated by His use of them for matters with which we all have to do.
Galatians 4:21-5:1 (CLT)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
5:1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.
The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it. By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter. Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin. We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice." The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing. Justice (or, "judgement" AV) is setting things right. When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust. He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgement according to the truth. We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. The Holy Scriptures already exist. But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.
Hbr 9:3 And after the
second veil, the tabernacle which is called the
Holy of holies;
Hbr 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hbr 9:5 and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat; of which things we cannot now speak severally.
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a
figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience,
make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil,
that is to say, his flesh;
Hbr 10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can
never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually
make the comers thereunto perfect. {In conscience}
Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had
no more conscience of sins. Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure
the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. Sin conscience is an
outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is
an inner court teaching.
The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!
Now, who said anything about love enjoying injustice?
What love without condition means is that the
libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 18, 2009, 06:36:31 AM
What love without condition means is that the libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
It is not love, but the lack of love which is blind.
Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation.
And you're not the only one who feels this way.
peacemaker
:goodpost: :drunken_smilie: Hay dude,Barry: It is strange to me that when I read other peoples writings or "post", I get this strange feeling that it "IS" of God... so many religions have warned me not to read other peoples works, or words, because all you need is the bible, "of course they want you to hear their way" of the bible.
I have ALL WAYS CHECKED EVERY VERSE IN OTHER PEOPLES WRITINGS or booklets, and when I contunely get the feeling that it is of God, then I make the choice if I am going to read more.
Even people on this Board, I let some talk, and I hear some, and I learn from some. Barry, you ARE a gifted writer, because your Thoughts are not scattered and confusing, you Make your subject have beginning middle and end, which makes it stick to the mind... Thanks Lee Damboise II
Quote from: peacemaker on December 18, 2009, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 18, 2009, 06:36:31 AM
What love without condition means is that the libility of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
It is not love, but the lack of love which is blind.
Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation.
And you're not the only one who feels this way.
peacemaker
Interesting observation imo Peacemaker. Really something to think about.
Just thinking:
Growing in love seems to be to some extent its
own conscious dwelling. Meaning I guess that knowing that love is
the "growing place". That understanding is not the end of growth but the understanding of it.
Coming to that reference may have some blocks in front of it. Some close-eyed-ness.
The interesting thing is how one relates then to what they see as close-eyed-ness. Perhaps then as a way of expressing such a dwelling: A working mindset of oneness irregardless of visible participation in that understanding, for love loves anyway, while simultaneously desiring all to see it and be there.
So that it does not itself become a new elitism but rather just a seeing and a living. For "Love is always inspired by love, not hate or separation."
To extrapolate to the ongoing application, "harmless as doves but not naive".
JMO
Barry
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 18, 2009, 03:50:51 PM
:goodpost: :drunken_smilie: Hay dude,Barry: It is strange to me that when I read other peoples writings or "post", I get this strange feeling that it "IS" of God... so many religions have warned me not to read other peoples works, or words, because all you need is the bible, "of course they want you to hear their way" of the bible.
I have ALL WAYS CHECKED EVERY VERSE IN OTHER PEOPLES WRITINGS or booklets, and when I contunely get the feeling that it is of God, then I make the choice if I am going to read more.
Even people on this Board, I let some talk, and I hear some, and I learn from some. Barry, you ARE a gifted writer, because your Thoughts are not scattered and confusing, you Make your subject have beginning middle and end, which makes it stick to the mind... Thanks Lee Damboise II
I hear you Lee.
2Cr 1:13 NKJV For
we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
We all do our thing bro as gifts go and often mine are lacking, but it is love that counts. Love is the great equalizer. Value is a gift of God's love.
Blessings to you.
Barry
Quote from: BarryHbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
"conscience"G4893
συνείδησις
suneidēsissoon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is,
moral consciousness: - conscience.
G4894
συνείδω
suneidōsoon-i'-do
From G4862 and G1492;
to see completely; used (like its primary) only in two past tenses, respectively meaning to understand or become aware, and
to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: - consider, know, be privy, be ware of.
I'm wondering what this means. Does it mean if the law had been perfect, they would forget their own sins? Or they would be purged and stop sinning? Does it mean when they are perfected by grace that they sin no more? Does it mean even though they sin under grace, they are no longer conscious of their sin?
We have to be careful, here, because a person who sins with no conscience is considered a psychopath lol.
Quote from: Molly on December 18, 2009, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: BarryHbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
"conscience"
G4893
συνείδησις
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.
G4894
συνείδω
suneidō
soon-i'-do
From G4862 and G1492; to see completely; used (like its primary) only in two past tenses, respectively meaning to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: - consider, know, be privy, be ware of.
I'm wondering what this means. Does it mean if the law had been perfect, they would forget their own sins? Or they would be purged and stop sinning? Does it mean when they are perfected by grace that they sin no more? Does it mean even though they sin under grace, they are no longer conscious of their sin?
We have to be careful, here, because a person who sins with no conscience is considered a psychopath lol.
Wow, great post Molly!
Consider Adam!
Was Adam so innocent that he had diapers? LOL
Was he so ignorant as to not know the difference between disagreeing with Eve about something and dragging her around by her hair?
Adam had work to do, responsibilities and relationship.
Yet sin (conscience) entered the world when he "digested" or "consumed" the knowledge of good and evil. Attainment then entered into the picture.
Does that help a bit when we frame it from beginning to end? It does for me.
Yes if an animal sacrifice was truly effective then they would have had no more sin conscience.
Consider the warning of the Hebrew writer to his audience:
Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together
{out of the old and into the new}, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as
ye see the day approaching.
Hbr 10:26 For if we
sin wilfully {IE continue in sin conscience under animal sacrifices} after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
{IE there is not going to be another sacrifice for sins},
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
So if they did this:
Hbr 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels
{the law} was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape,
if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
So if they neglected in their conscience so great a salvation by neglecting the sin sacrifice of Christ wherein there was not going to another they were then remaining in sin conscience willfully and would then die the second death in conscience when they felt abandoned and forsaken by God when their city and temple were being taken away.
It was all about the consience under law.
Blessings Barry
CONSIDER EVE!
How the serpent seduced her away from God's commandment
[this is MY SON,LISTEN TO HIM/RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT]
the serpent [a seducer] appeared to have the best interest
of Eve in mind...for by reaching out and partaking of that fruit
[which appeared 'good'] she would be just like GOD!
knowing good and evil.
actually the seducing spirit did not have any love for Eve..
just like men seduce women to use their flesh for their own
carnal desires...so did this seducing spirit...to bring forth
in her flesh..seed of his "own" kind.
If you follow His Holy spirit..you will have no 'knowledge' of
error...for it will lead you into all truth...and declare to you the
things pertaining to Christ. It will not speak of it's own accord
accord- to make persons agree, to bring into agreement,
to grant as suitable or proper
Now, you are betrothed to Christ
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 18, 2009, 06:36:31 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 18, 2009, 04:52:35 AM
The difficulty I have with the phrase "unconditional love" is what so many mean by it. By "unconditional" they intend that sin doesn't matter. Look at God's Law-word on love here:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (CLT)...
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
Considering verse 6, it seems that love would get involved with correcting people who are being cut-off from the blessings of God because of sin. We would be, "Not rejoicing in injustice." The Spirit would grieve over their wrong doing. Justice (or, "judgment" AV) is setting things right. When we go about correcting someone we love who is not doing what is right we appeal to God as our authority to define what is just or unjust. He gave us an objective witness in the written Word of Scripture establishing righteous judgment according to the truth. We don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. The Holy Scriptures already exist. But if we say only the spirit within or only love is our authority, we may well be setting up another kingdom against that of Christ and His jewels.
Sin conscience is an outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is an inner court teaching.
The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!
Now, who said anything about love enjoying injustice?
What love without condition means is that the liability of our faults and failings is not separation. He has thus made an "end of sins" and has finished the transgression.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
Blessings Barry
Whatever the immortal Jesus ascended up into, He was able to send forth His Spirit into those who believe on Him. Next will be the revelation of what has been hidden from the world withing the saints. While writing Scripture
after the resurrection of Jesus and
after the ascension of Christ, and after receiving the gift of the same Holy Spirit that had begun to be poured out that momentous Day of Pentecost, Paul speaks in his letter to the Philippians of, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead." (Php 3:11, CLT) He immediately continues, repeatedly denying he had entered into that state, probably intending the lack of comprehension of it as well: "Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus. Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped..." (vss.12-13) Today we also can say with him, while I have not obtained "body salvation" and am not finished, having gone on into sinless perfection, yet, "...toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus." (vs.14)
To say that in the state of deathless incorruption we have no more awareness of sin is one thing. For someone to assert they have attained to it, particularly by a sort of gnostic legerdemain is another. As valuable as a balanced discussion about not being "sin conscious" is for the earnest follower of Jesus, to be summoned into another dimension "upon-high" concerns us constitutionally as a completely other order of being. This is so very obvious it tempts me to in turns ridicule then pity someone who insists otherwise. But to go on to propose everybody else is already resurrected and sinless too, they just haven't admitted it yet, makes me wonder if you are helpable.
I don't know if you've heard the story of a psychiatrist who was trying to help a man who believed he was dead. He asked him if dead men bleed. The patient answered, "No, dead men don't bleed." Then the Doctor pricked the fellow's thumb, making it bleed. Whereupon the man exclaimed, "My God! Dead men do bleed!"
Though I somewhat accept all the traditional stances of interpretation, to some labelers I would at least be a partial preterist. To me, your propositions label you a "fool preterist." If I misunderstand your doctrine please feel free to correct me. Anyway, you don't seem to be wanting much help, only to teach this supposed revelation of the way things really are that convince me you not only don't know the way things really are, but you don't seem to understand what to expect in your relationship with God. The Biblical definition of the states you propose everybody has already entered into would mean we all can walk on water and turn stones into bread, more precisely, to turn nothing into bread. To say it is only a matter of putting our minds into the correct pose is to dissimulate on everybody's ignorance concerning physical immortality. Oh, it is something we must do, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (1 Co 15:53, CLT) Yet it is something we cannot do, but must be done by our precious Savior, Who Himself similarly described, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself if it is not what He should be observing the Father doing..." (Jn 5:19, CLT)
We are still inhabiting the carcases inherited in our birth into the world as offspring of the soilish first man . They must be changed. We have a metamorphosis to undergo. We cannot elevate the foretastes we have of that great
harpazo to come as proof it already has come. The world of men must become dominated by what really is another specie, even though it emerges out of Adamic humans. While we already, "...are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones," (Ep 5:30, AV) there must come about the manifestation of "the second Man [Who] is the Lord out of heaven," (loc.sit., 1 Co 15:47, CLT) and, that manifestation must be the government over all peoples. The kingdoms of this world must become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ (of Whom we are members.)
An example of the problem with attempting to preempt God's Law Word by pleaing "unconditional love" is some renters who haven't payed the rent because they think they should spend the money on a better Christmas for their children they love. They claim that it's OK, that we are friends and that I love them so much I wouldn't make them leave their home that they love. Though I've hinted, I haven't directly told them that my friends participate with me in what deeply interests me (which is the things of God.) They only come over to when they have a need or want some money, even though I'm open and pursuing involvement in spiritual things, my words concerning they edge away from and leave as quickly as possible. (Have you ever noticed that some of the people who need spiritual wisdom the most, often seem proud of how knowledgeable in spiritual things they are.) I cannot afford to not get an income from the rental, though I would probably survive. I have been homeless for months at a time. A couple of occasions it was in the snow, once even for about 6 months. What would love do?
What do you think the God Who is Love will do to get people, who are stubbornly disobedient, free from sin? Some blasphemers, those who unharnessed words from their true meaning to claim the resurrection had already passed we are told to "shun," (2 Ti 2:16, AV) or avoid. "Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (vss.16-18, CLT) Our being seen to stand aloof from them may awaken them to their salvation. For specially the novices in the faith it is for their protection from having their faith destroyed
Before the Apostle deals with the Ecclesia at Corinth concerning their complicity in the iniquity they'd kept among themselves without judging, "...that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife," (1 Co 5:1, CLT) he discusses their "high and mighty" attitude. He asks a question everyone should have written in big letters on their T-shirt: "...and what have you that you did not receive? now if thou did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it?" (1 Co 4:7) He points out that reigning in the world by the power of God was not yet manifested. The saints were not then and are not yet "reigning in glory" as the prophets say must come. Paul mocks their pretensions a bit and remarks, "...would that you surely reign, that we also should be reigning together with you!" (1 Co 4:8, CLT) Remember this was after Jesus' resurrection from the dead out of a grave, His ascension into glory, and sending forth of God's Spirit into our hearts. Paul, with fatherly concern for their development share with them what it is like for him while he writes to them the Oracles of God. "To this moment, we are hungry, thirsty, poorly dressed, roughly treated, and homeless. We wear ourselves out doing physical labor. When people verbally abuse us, we bless them. When people persecute us, we endure it. When our reputations are attacked, we remain courteous. Right now we have become garbage in the eyes of the world and trash in the sight of all people." (1 Co 4:11-13, GW) But he goes on to bring out the truth of the kingdom being present within us, even more abundantly with those more mature, if not yet ruling over all in the world:
1 Corinthians 4:19-22 (CLT)...
19 Yet I shall be coming to you swiftly, if ever the Lord should be willing, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power.
20 For not in word is the kingdom of God, but in power.
21 What are you wanting? With a rod may I be coming to you, or in love and a spirit of meekness?
This is to what I would appeal to you to consider, words understood by the mind is not of what the kingdom of God consists. It is in power. It is the place of God's Special Emissaries (apostles) and prophets, sometimes even the least of His brothers, to represent the kingdom of love through the use of the power of God to correct those straying for their building up. If chastening was still an option at this late date, what does that say of the theory to not be conscious of sin? I believe such judgments should still operate in the gatherings of the Ecclesia. What powers of the age to come do you demonstrate to confirm your word?
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
:goodpost:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me...
At least the above "good" post tells me why my post arn't being talked about, I guess some things are still being black balled from its foundings, The Roman Catholic Church of Old...
reFormer , I believe that you did put your words in better format and Kinder, and for that I am greatful , I am not "carved in stone" believe what I teach, there IS room for me to change my thinking,
Although, I know "I" am not a sinner, 1 John 3:1-10 "I" am not the children of the devil. I am one of the children of God...
This child will never tern back to the school of 'lack of understanding' and go back to laws, rules, statutes and judgments of the law. i.e. SIN.
Hope you still converse with me. Lee Damboise II :dsunny: :surrender:
:cloud9: You already have (been turned "back" or more like out of the way) and don't realize it, Lee. The lack of understanding He's talking about, has nothing to do in this spiritual covenant with what you gain thru what's between your ears. And you notice that He says you'll be no PRIEST unto Him.
Priests are made by the baptism in God's Spirit, not by the will or intellect of man. Believe this or not, but I'm not saying any of this to be mean; it grieves my spirit to see it. Time is grower shorter as far as His plan and I'm growing bolder to speak. It's all about His Spirit this time around, not that it wasn't by His Spirit the first time, but now it's more revealed. Blessings....
According to the Ultradispensationalists, the Sermon on the Mount does not apply to Christians today, but will apply to Jews in the Millennium. In his book God's Eonian Purpose, Adlai Loudy promotes the idea of two destinies for believers based on their race. Jewish Christians, he says, inherit the earth and suffer the great tribulation, while Gentile believers are up "among the celestials."
Loudy rejects the synoptic Gospels, Acts, Hebrews, the general epistles, and Revelation, and the entire OT, and claims those teachings do not apply to us today. He admits only the writings of Paul.
Hmm.. Let's consider how that would work.
In another thread, I listed some of the characteristics of the saints that are similar to those of Jesus. The list was based on all the NT. What if we compare only those characteristics of the saints mentioned in the writings of Paul, and those mentioned by the other writers in the NT separately? How would the characteristics of the saints who Paul wrote about compare with the characteristics of the saints according to Peter and John and Matthew and Jesus? Here, then, are two tables for comparison.
According to Paul:
| Jesus is Abraham's seed; Galatians 3:16 | The saints are Abraham's seed; Galatians 3:29 |
| Jesus is a Jew | The saints are "the circumcision"; Philippians 3:3 |
| Jesus is chosen of God | The saints are chosen; Ephesians 1:4 |
| Jesus is anointed; Acts 10:38 | The saints are anointed; 2 Corinthians 1:21 |
| Jesus is a king; John 19:19 | The saints are seated in heavenly places; Ephesians 2:6 |
| Jesus is a servant; John 13:14 | The saints are servants; Romans 6:22; 1 Peter 2:16 |
| Jesus is a sacrifice; Ephesians 5:2 | The saints are living sacrifices; Romans 12:1 |
| Jesus was a sweet aroma to God; Ephesians 5:2 | The saints are a sweet aroma to God; 2 Corinthians 2:15 |
| Jesus was crucified | The saints have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts; Galatians 5:24 |
| Jesus was buried | The saints have been buried with him by baptism into death; Romans 6:4 |
| Jesus was raised from the grave | The saints have been raised to walk in newness of life; Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12 |
| Jesus is a temple; John 2:19-22 | The saints are temples; 1 Corinthians 6:19 |
| Jesus is in heaven | The saints are citizens of heaven; Philippians 3:20 |
| Jesus did many good works; John 10:32 | The saints abound in good works; 2 Corinthians 9:7-9, Colossians 1:10 |
According to Jesus and the other apostles:
| Jesus is an Israelite | The saints are the 12 tribes of Israel; Revelation 7:4 |
| Jesus is a son of David | The saints are the "tabernacle of David"; Acts 15:16 |
| Jesus is holy; Revelation 3:7 | The saints are sanctified; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:10 |
| Jesus is a priest; Hebrews 4:14 | The saints are a royal priesthood; 1 Peter 2:9 |
| Jesus is the firstborn; Colossians 1:15 | The saints are firstborn; Hebrews 12:23 |
| Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept; 1 Corinthians 15:20 | The saints are a kind of firstfruits; James 1:18 |
| Jesus is a servant; John 13:14 | The saints are servants; Romans 6:22; 1 Peter 2:16 |
| Jesus is a Lamb; John 1:29 | The saints are called lambs; John 21:15; and sheep |
| Jesus offered himself without spot to God; Hebrews 9:14 | The saints are exhorted to be found without spot; 2 Peter 3:14 |
| Jesus is the stone that was rejected; Matthew 21:42 | The saints are lively stones; 1 Peter 2:5 |
| Jesus is the light of the world; John 8:12 | The saints are called the light of the world; Matthew 5:14 |
| Jesus is the faithful witness; Revelation 1:5 | The saints are witnesses; Acts 1:8 |
| Jesus is a star; Revelation 22:16 | The saints are called stars; Revelation 12:4 |
| Jesus covercame the world; John 16:33 | The saints overcome the world; 1 John 5:4-5 |
| Jesus is the son of God | The saints are sons of God; 1 John 3:1 |
| Jesus is a bridegroom | The saints are called virgins; Revelation 14:4 |
| Jesus rides a white horse; Revelation 19:11 | The saints ride white horses; Revelation 19:14 |
| Jesus said "follow me"; Matthew 16:24 | The saints follow Jesus wherever he goes; Revelation 14:4 |
| Jesus was obedient unto death; Philippians 2:8 | The saints obey him; Hebrews 5:9 |
Loudy's doctrine seems to fail, because the ones called "the circumcision" are in Paul's section!
And the "firstfruits" are those in the other section, which completely discredits Loudy's idea that the saints destined for a "celestial" inheritance are raptured up to heaven before the tribulation.
Note that some items occur in both tables. To me, (and to Paul) there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ; we all have the same destiny! [Acts 15:9, Romans 3:21-23, 10:12, Colossians 3:11]
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.Below is a quote from Loudy's chapter on justification, where he alleges the superiority of the "celestial" calling of Gentile believers. He seems to
sneer at the apostles of the Lord, Peter, James, and John, in the hilighted words.
God's Eonian Purpose, Chapter 11. Justification
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/Justification.htmDear friend and beloved in the Lord, you may search through the writings of Peter, James, and John, in fact, all the writings of the Circumcision, book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, and word by word, and you will never find anything to compare with the wonderful Scriptures you have just read from Paul's writings. ... The glorious allotment which is ours among the celestials in Christ Jesus far transcends that of Israel in the earthly kingdom. Let the Jew have what God has graciously sent him through Peter, James and John and the rest of the Circumcision writers--"pardon" of sins" and "regeneration." We don't need it. God, through His vast love wherewith He loves us has given us something far better--"justification" and a "new creation in Christ." Therefore, let us get away from the terrestrial blessings of the Circumcision writings for Israel, and exult in the transcendent spiritual blessings which are ours among the celestials in Christ Jesus, of Paul's writings. The following is a paragraph by Harry Ironside, a dispensationalist, who rebukes the doctrine promoted by Loudy and the Ultradispensationalists.
[Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth]
http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm (http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm)Having had most intimate acquaintance with Bullingerism as taught by many for the last forty years, I have no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands, it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth. Instead of rightly dividing the Word, I shall seek to show that these teachers wrongly divide the Word, and that their propaganda is anything but conducive to spirituality and enlightenment in divine things. Doug
so wheres the bad in Harry's Quote ? isn't that what Christians are doing, Spreading the Gospel.
:cloud9: [Doug's post for brevity] :2thumbs: :ok: :rocker :high5: :happyclap:
That it couldn't be anymore of a divisive tool against the body of CHRIST, could not be more obvious IMO. Blessings.....
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 19, 2009, 04:47:14 PM
so wheres the bad in Harry's Quote ? isn't that what Christians are doing, Spreading the Gospel.
Harry said, "its fruits are evil." He said of its promoters, "they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views."
His entire article is at:
http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm (http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm)Doug
Wow, nice discussion.
Firstly Reformer, your speech on love without condition sounding like nonsense really does imo illustrate how much Christians need their "sin". And need even more for everyone else to be in sin.
And of course love has boundaries. No one is saying anything to the contrary. As if Adam in the Garden could have done anything he wanted to without any consequence because he had no sin conscience. "Straw man" argument imo.
Quote reformer:
We are still inhabiting the carcases inherited in our birth into the world as offspring of the soilish first man . They must be changed.
End quote.
This is where you and apparently some others here are going to dig your heals in. And of course we are here temporarily. [But what we do here matters for "here" not just "there".] And apparently it is not being proven by the scriptures but rather by an appeal to personal revelation that cannot be harmonized in the scriptures. Prove all things is failing
imo what is being pushed on this thread as gospel is "believe me God told me".
Anyone stepping back for just a moment can see that this sort of stuff is not compatible with a Father that loves us who loves his "offspring".
"you are made wrong and wrong you shall stay until you die and in realizing that truth you can start to die to your being made wrong right now"
Yea I'm buying it! :)
Do you not see the struggles that you put people through with this sort of teaching?
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
That was the message and that was the point. Not that man was made wrong or badly but that God cannot be worshiped though a mind set that he needs anything. That's it.
Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Stars die and are reborn all the time. Is God's tent then corrupt?
What was "corrupt" in scripture? Man's building with hay, straw and combustibles. Man's building of his own potential as if God needed anything. That was the corruptible.
Living and dieing was never the problem. Nothing is ever lost with and in God. Living and dieing because the problem through man's interpretation of the knowledge of good and evil. And that brings us back to sin conscience and how Adam became mealy a man of the dust between his ears and in his conscience.
And that is what Christ came to fix.
That's all I have to say. So I won't trouble you any more.
God bless you all.
I really do love you all agree or disagree.
Barry
Henry said; so what, you believe every word written by men?
Many said, I only believe those things that like in Matt. 16: 17 Was and is forever revealed by My Father...
to me I can learn by all things, the bible is only one thing.
Lee
Lee,
yes the new creature in Christ is a new creation, and is
sinless. However, He has made of the same 'lump"in our flesh
two vessels...one the old man of sin..the vessel of dishonour
and the other the new man in Christ.[two men in a bed]
If we say we have no sin, we are liars..Paul cried out'
'who will deliver me from this body undergoing this death'?
Thanks be, to Christ Jesus.
Sin in our flesh is condemned.....
Paul spoke of the law of Christ in his mind..that was in
agreement with the Lord..but that there was another law at
work in his flesh..the law of sin.and that the good which he
desired to do, he did not..for evil is present.Therefore, it was no
longer 'I' that sinned..but the sin dwelling in my flesh. This is
what we are awaiting..that He shall do away with at the breath
of His coming[the man of lawlessness dwelling in our flesh]
This is what we are pressing into..our hope of just this
deliverance from this body undrgoing this death.
I know you have proablably had no idea what we are about
you are new here. But we must continue on as we await Him
coming in His POWER AND GLORY.
And we rejoice greatly that all men are saved by His power
but we feel it inconvienient to leave off following Him at this
time. And while we know that it matters not that some children
return home as prodigals..that they are dearly loved and given
a feast and the best robe..it is still in our heart to cling to
Him , to the end
At the very darkest hour of lawlessness evidenced in this
world, He has proclaimed His total victory. We await being
'changed' in a twinkling of an eye
we must remain in Him, for we have no life in ourselves.
His spirit is our life...it is His spirit that proclaimed to us the
salvation of all mankind.
You have beleived this message in your heart, I encourage you
to draw close to your heavenly Father, pray to Him, enjoy
relationship with Him, He loves you, HE HIMSELF WILL TEACH
AND GUIDE YOU....and lead you in the way.
when we are young..we can easily be blown about by different
doctrines[ even when we are old]
Now, you know He loves you, will save you. Begin your own
personal relationship with your Father.
We are not rejecting you or Barry...but the erronous 'message'
you are bringing
SPIRIT AND TRUTH for there are many lying doctrines
Sometimes when we follow Christ we are called to make
ourselves of no reputation, just like He did, He cared not that
the religious leaders and teachers accused Him of Blasphemy
or that He was despised. Indeed they crucified Him..and He
took on the very appearance of sin...like some of us have
become in your eyes the 'accursed' of God. The blasphemy
they charged Him with was saying He was the Son of God.
Now, we are awaiting the REVEALING of the SONS OF GOD
with Glory and power Romans 8;19-22
Psalms 87;5 Indeed of Zion it will be said ' This one and that
one were born in her" AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL
ESTABLISH HER. All of us must be born of her 'again'
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
We are not rejecting you or Barry...but the erronous 'message'
you are bringing
Just for the record, I am not part of this "we".
One thing about this thread, a lot of stuff is being brought out into the light.
I thank God for Barry's contributions to this board.
Peace.
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
We are not rejecting you or Barry but the erroneous 'message' you are bringing
Just for the record, I am not part of this "we".
The term "we" spiritually speaking is of the mind (ego) which maintains an illusion of separation.
Quote from: peacemaker on December 19, 2009, 08:35:08 PM
The term "we" spiritually speaking is of the mind (ego) which maintains an illusion of separation.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
We are not rejecting you or Barry...but the erronous 'message'
you are bringing
Just for the record, I am not part of this "we".
One thing about this thread, a lot of stuff is being brought out into the light.
I thank God for Barry's contributions to this board.
Peace.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Another thing I would like to say is there is no-one that has all truth. I may not agree with all that Barry has said or will say in the future (if he decides to stick around) but I certainly appreciate his spirit. Some of the things he has said has been truly beautiful. If there are some things that he may be wrong about, then those things will be refined off of him. Just like the REST OF US. There are those here who follow really strange teachings.... and have we accused YOU of not being a brother? My God! We are all in this together. If you don't agree with someone's thoughts, then so be it. But there is NO NEED to try to cast a shadow on a brother just because you don't believe what he believes.
We ALL see through the glass darkly.
and yes, we ARE all in this together.
We're here to lift each other up, not tear each other down.
Treat no-one like an "outsider". Treat no-one like he is "not a brother".
Treat everyone like brothers and sisters.
Well, that's just my take on it.
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 09:14:27 PM
Another thing I would like to say is there is no-one that has all truth. I may not agree with all that Barry has said or will say in the future (if he decides to stick around) but I certainly appreciate his spirit. Some of the things he has said has been truly beautiful. If there are some things that he may be wrong about, then those things will be refined off of him. Just like the REST OF US. There are those here who follow really strange teachings .... and have we accused YOU of not being a brother? My God! We are all in this together. If you don't agree with someone's thoughts, then so be it. But there is NO NEED to try to cast a shadow on a brother just because you don't believe what he believes.
We ALL see through the glass darkly.
and yes, we ARE all in this together.
We're here to lift each other up, not tear each other down.
Treat no-one like an "outsider". Treat no-one like he is "not a brother".
Treat everyone like brothers and sisters.
Well, that's just my take on it.
Sparrow, you exhibit love for ALL regardless of who they are, were, or will be; a true sister.
For love does not measure anything, it just gives to others.
"There are absolutes, but it's not what people think." -- peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on December 19, 2009, 09:58:49 PM
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 09:14:27 PM
Another thing I would like to say is there is no-one that has all truth. I may not agree with all that Barry has said or will say in the future (if he decides to stick around) but I certainly appreciate his spirit. Some of the things he has said has been truly beautiful. If there are some things that he may be wrong about, then those things will be refined off of him. Just like the REST OF US. There are those here who follow really strange teachings .... and have we accused YOU of not being a brother? My God! We are all in this together. If you don't agree with someone's thoughts, then so be it. But there is NO NEED to try to cast a shadow on a brother just because you don't believe what he believes.
We ALL see through the glass darkly.
and yes, we ARE all in this together.
We're here to lift each other up, not tear each other down.
Treat no-one like an "outsider". Treat no-one like he is "not a brother".
Treat everyone like brothers and sisters.
Well, that's just my take on it.
Sparrow, you exhibit love for ALL regardless of who they are, were, or will be; a true sister.
For love does not measure anything, it just gives to others.
"There are absolutes, but it's not what people think." -- peacemaker
Thank you for the love. I must say it's quite disheartening to have a brother or sister accuse you of the opposite.
There is NO DISRESPECT IMPLYED HERE................................
[/color]
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Lee,
yes the new creature in Christ is a new creation, and is
sinless.( Oh,is it)????? However, He has made of the same 'lump"in our flesh
two vessels...one the old man of sin..the vessel of dishonour
and the other the new man in Christ.[two men in a bed] (So there is sin IN Christ.????)
If we say we have no sin, we are liars( NoT Paul's Gospel of Grace) and if you find Paul saying this, he will be refering to Israel not Gentiles.)..Paul cried out'
'who will deliver me from this body undergoing this death'?
Thanks be, to Christ Jesus. Si- Version, which is Kool.
Sin in our flesh is condemned.....(Oh really, when???)
Paul spoke of the law of Christ in his mind..that was in
agreement with the Lord..but that there was another law at
work in his flesh..the law of sin.and that the good which he
desired to do, he did not..for evil is present.Therefore, it was no
longer 'I' that sinned..but the sin dwelling in my flesh.(Paul said, Yes. with his issues) This is
what we are awaiting..that He shall do away with at the breath
of His coming[the man of lawlessness dwelling in our flesh] (So when do humans become sinless?????) I guess your going to repeat His Coming???
Well the rapture, is over for me, I didn't miss the boat, His presents is here to stay and where He dwells there IS NO SIN.[/color]
This is what we are pressing into..our hope of just this
deliverance from this body undergoing this death.( Done for me !) I am very sorry to hear that God's Anointed hasn't anointed you.
I know you have proablably had no idea what we are about
you are new here. I have been a studyer of J.P.Eby, Concordant Publishing Concern, Gary Sigler , Tentmaker Ministries, and many others for about 7 years, And I can mentally recall most of what I have studied, and I've spent at times Weeks in study with no breakes, ( In Prison you have a lot of time to contemplate) But we must continue on as we await Him. (again, I am truly sorry your still awaiting Him)
coming in His POWER AND GLORY. (Done for me.)
And we rejoice greatly that all men are saved by His power
but we feel it inconvienient to leave off following Him at this
time. And while we know that it matters not that some children
return home as prodigals..that they are dearly loved and given
a feast and the best robe..it is still in our heart to cling to
Him , to the end
At the very darkest hour of lawlessness evidenced in this
world, He has proclaimed His total victory.( And that victor IS/Was victorouis) We await being
'changed' in a twinkling of an eye (I was too, not any more )
we must remain in Him, for we have no life in ourselves. ( IF 'we' did, it would be Carnal)
His spirit is our life( IF we are awaken to the knowledge of HIM)...it is His spirit that proclaimed to us the
salvation of all mankind.
You have beleived this message in your heart, I encourage you
to draw close to your heavenly Father, pray to Him, enjoy
relationship with Him, He loves you, HE HIMSELF WILL TEACH
AND GUIDE YOU....and lead you in the way. ( And this is where I am claiming that all my knowledge is from)
when we are young..we can easily be blown about by different
doctrines[ even when we are old] Ya, I know because the JW, Catholic's, Mormon, Baptist etc... Have all tried to fix me. NOT happening...
Now, you know He loves you, will save you. Begin your own
personal relationship with your Father.
We are not rejecting you or Barry...but the erronous 'message'
you are bringing ( A message your not aquainted with yet, He will show you a sin free life in this earth life hopefully some time.)
SPIRIT AND TRUTH for there are many lying doctrines
Sometimes when we follow Christ we are called to make
ourselves of no reputation, just like He did, He cared not that
the religious leaders and teachers accused Him of Blasphemy
or that He was despised. Indeed they crucified Him..and He
took on the very appearance of sin...like some of us have
become in your eyes the 'accursed' of God. The blasphemy
they charged Him with was saying He was the Son of God. (Well, I am a Son of God TOO.) Will they hang me too????
Now, we are awaiting the REVEALING of the SONS OF GOD
with Glory and power Romans 8;19-22 :rocker the wait is over, Hi my name is Lee Damboise II meet one.
Psalms 87;5 Indeed of Zion it will be said ' This one and that
one were born in her" AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL
ESTABLISH HER. All of us must be born of her 'again'
or Spirit Birth, oops that is now for me.
Now I truly ask that none of the people in this form be offended, because MY understanding is not of this world, IT IS OF God. And it is as "I see and hear it from the Father."
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 09:14:27 PM
Another thing I would like to say is there is no-one that has all truth.
Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.Is there some truth that God is missing?
Someone said: "Never commit yourself to a negative, for that supposes that you are in possession of all the facts."
Doug
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Lee,
yes the new creature in Christ is a new creation, and is
sinless. However, He has made of the same 'lump"in our flesh
two vessels...one the old man of sin..the vessel of dishonour
and the other the new man in Christ.[two men in a bed]
If we say we have no sin, we are liars..Paul cried out'
'who will deliver me from this body undergoing this death'?
Thanks be, to Christ Jesus.
Sin in our flesh is condemned.....
Paul spoke of the law of Christ in his mind..that was in
agreement with the Lord..but that there was another law at
work in his flesh..the law of sin.and that the good which he
desired to do, he did not..for evil is present.Therefore, it was no
longer 'I' that sinned..but the sin dwelling in my flesh. This is
what we are awaiting..that He shall do away with at the breath
of His coming[the man of lawlessness dwelling in our flesh]
This is what we are pressing into..our hope of just this
deliverance from this body undergoing this death.
I know you have probably had no idea what we are about
you are new here. But we must continue on as we await Him
coming in His POWER AND GLORY.
And we rejoice greatly that all men are saved by His power
but we feel it inconvienient to leave off following Him at this
time. And while we know that it matters not that some children
return home as prodigals..that they are dearly loved and given
a feast and the best robe..it is still in our heart to cling to
Him , to the end
At the very darkest hour of lawlessness evidenced in this
world, He has proclaimed His total victory. We await being
'changed' in a twinkling of an eye
we must remain in Him, for we have no life in ourselves.
His spirit is our life...it is His spirit that proclaimed to us the
salvation of all mankind.
You have believed this message in your heart, I encourage you
to draw close to your heavenly Father, pray to Him, enjoy
relationship with Him, He loves you, HE HIMSELF WILL TEACH
AND GUIDE YOU....and lead you in the way.
when we are young..we can easily be blown about by different
doctrines[ even when we are old]
Now, you know He loves you, will save you. Begin your own
personal relationship with your Father.
We are not rejecting you or Barry...but the erroneous 'message'
you are bringing
SPIRIT AND TRUTH for there are many lying doctrines
Sometimes when we follow Christ we are called to make
ourselves of no reputation, just like He did, He cared not that
the religious leaders and teachers accused Him of Blasphemy
or that He was despised. Indeed they crucified Him..and He
took on the very appearance of sin...like some of us have
become in your eyes the 'accursed' of God. The blasphemy
they charged Him with was saying He was the Son of God.
Now, we are awaiting the REVEALING of the SONS OF GOD
with Glory and power Romans 8;19-22
Psalms 87;5 Indeed of Zion it will be said ' This one and that
one were born in her" AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL
ESTABLISH HER. All of us must be born of her 'again'
:cloud9: Amen, Sheila..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 20, 2009, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: sheila on December 19, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
...
If we say we have no sin, we are liars
( NoT Paul's Gospel of Grace) and if you find Paul saying this, he will be refering to Israel not Gentiles.)
Paul's teaching of the grace of God which comes through Christ was misunderstood, even in his day. Some even twisted his doctrine to the extent that they went about saying that Paul taught, "Let us do evil, that good may come," which Paul said was slander.
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.Those strong words are from the apostle Paul, who taught the ultimate reconciliation all things to Christ! So Paul wanted people to understand what he meant, and not misunderstand what grace is. The apostle Peter also reported that some misunderstood the teachings of Paul, in the days of the apostles. He wrote:
2 Peter 3:15-17
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.That happened to some even when the apostles were living. Peter said it was those who were unstable (i.e., lacking wisdom, and the Spirit of Christ) who wrested Paul's words; and in our time, these kinds of errors have proliferated, as Paul said they would:
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.It is a great error to claim that the way of salvation is different for Gentiles and Jews, and Paul tried to make it abundantly clear there is but one gospel, one faith, and one body of the saints. He repeatedly said there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile in Christ. For example:
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.Anyone reading the above statements by Paul, who still insists the Gospel for Jewish believers is somehow different from the one Paul taught to Gentile saints, must be spiritually blind. And yet, many do teach that very thing, notably the ultradispensationalists, some of whom, IMO, may have been influenced by German critical scholars of the nineteenth century, who were unbelievers.
Paul taught that Gentile saints had been "made nigh" to the commonwealth of Israel, by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.Paul even said, referring to both Jewish and Gentile believers, they had all been circumcised "with the circumcision made without hands." He was referring not to circumcision of the flesh, but their being included in the holy covenant that circumcision represented, and the promises made to Abraham. This was not the law of Moses, which came long after the covenant, but the promise of blessing which came through Christ.
Colossians 2:10-11
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Circumcision is a symbol of God's eternal covenant. It is no longer necessary for male believers to be circumcised in the flesh like Jews, but the covenant is the new covenant, and the sign of it is spiritual circumcision, "made without hands," which therefore still applies to God's saints. This is the reason Paul called the church "the circumcision."
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.And Paul said the "seal" of Christ's saints is departing from evil.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 20, 2009, 02:48:45 PM
Quote from: sparrow on December 19, 2009, 09:14:27 PM
Another thing I would like to say is there is no-one that has all truth.
Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Is there some truth that God is missing?
Doug
As if I would REALLY say that
GOD DOES NOT KNOW ALL TRUTH.
Please, brother.
You know very well I am talking about mankind.
Not God.
Quote from: Doug on December 20, 2009, 09:05:59 PM
Paul's teaching of the grace of God which comes through Christ was misunderstood, even in his day. Some even twisted his doctrine to the extent that they went about saying that Paul taught, "Let us do evil, that good may come," which Paul said was slander.
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Those strong words are from the apostle Paul, who taught the ultimate reconciliation all things to Christ! So Paul wanted people to understand what he meant, and not misunderstand what grace is. The apostle Peter also reported that some misunderstood the teachings of Paul, in the days of the apostles. He wrote:
2 Peter 3:15-17
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
That happened to some even when the apostles were living. Peter said it was those who were unstable (i.e., lacking wisdom, and the Spirit of Christ) who wrested Paul's words; and in our time, these kinds of errors have proliferated, as Paul said they would:
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
It is a great error to claim that the way of salvation is different for Gentiles and Jews, and Paul tried to make it abundantly clear there is but one gospel, one faith, and one body of the saints. He repeatedly said there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile in Christ. For example:
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Anyone reading the above statements by Paul, who still insists the Gospel for Jewish believers is somehow different from the one Paul taught to Gentile saints, must be spiritually blind. And yet, many do teach that very thing, notably the ultradispensationalists, some of whom, IMO, may have been influenced by German critical scholars of the nineteenth century, who were unbelievers.
Paul taught that Gentile saints had been "made nigh" to the commonwealth of Israel, by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Paul even said, referring to both Jewish and Gentile believers, they had all been circumcised "with the circumcision made without hands." He was referring not to circumcision of the flesh, but their being included in the holy covenant that circumcision represented, and the promises made to Abraham. This was not the law of Moses, which came long after the covenant, but the promise of blessing which came through Christ.
Colossians 2:10-11
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Circumcision is a symbol of God's eternal covenant. It is no longer necessary for male believers to be circumcised in the flesh like Jews, but the covenant is the new covenant, and the sign of it is spiritual circumcision, "made without hands," which therefore still applies to God's saints. This is the reason Paul called the church "the circumcision."
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
And Paul said the "seal" of Christ's saints is departing from evil.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Doug
:cloud9: Amen.....plain as the nose on your face.......Blessings....
I am really kind of getting a kick out of the lack of understanding I see in "some" posts,
- Do human kind ever get sin free in this life while Christ Lives in YOU??
- Are YOU reconciled in this life or the next, i.e. Even being Spiritually Reborn IN Christ while in this terrestriel form.
I find it strange that
%99.9 % of UR's believe like the "Churches" believe, that Jesus is a failure and did not kill death, bring in immortality to all mankind.
How strange.
Lee
[/list]
three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
But HE SAID ' MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE
FOR MY POWER IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly in my weakness.
so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ sake, I DELIGHT in weakness..in INSULTS in hardships
in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I AM weak..then
I AM STRONG!!! :HeartThrob:
p.s. not yelling, caps for convenience and emphasis
Go ahead! What you hear whispered in the ear, Shout if from the houstops!
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 18, 2009, 06:11:30 PM
Hbr 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels {the law} was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
So if they neglected in their conscience so great a salvation by neglecting the sin sacrifice of Christ wherein there was not going to another they were then remaining in sin conscience willfully and would then die the second death in conscience when they felt abandoned and forsaken by God when their city and temple were being taken away.
It was all about the consience under law.
Blessings Barry
The verses from Hebrews quoted above say that the gospel of salvation was first taught by Jesus, and confirmed by those who heard him, which refers to the apostles.
Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law and the prophets.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.The righteousness of the law, Paul said, is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
There is no truth in the doctrine that the law passed away in 70 AD. Heaven and earth did not pass away as the hyper-preterists say. Paul explained how the law is fulfilled. It is by us loving our neighbours. Not because it has passed away!
Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.The law, Paul said, was a schoolmaster, as it teaches us what sin is. And when we leave school, do we forget what we learned there? No, that experience is meant to prepare us for life as an adult.
The gospel of our salvation, taught by Jesus and the apostles, is "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints," that Jude said we should earnestly contend for. [Jude 1:3] And the holy city, the New Jerusalem, and the bride of Christ, which represents the saints, has in it the names of the apostles.
If we follow those who contradict the apostles of Christ, we are deceived. Paul specifically declared the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus, who said the resurrection is past already, to be profane, and an error. [2 Timothy 2:16-18] And John said,
1 John 1:5-9
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.These words are true. Evidently some were claiming to be sinless already, misunderstanding the truth of the gospel, contradicting the apostles, in the age of John. Or else, why would he need to write these things? To us, it is obvious there was much ignorance in that age. They thought the heavens revolved around the earth! The Romans used lead for plumbing! Etc. etc. Sin free? Ha ha! And in our age, those who claim to be "sin free" would never pollute the air, or the environment, would they? And every word they say or write would be
absolutely true, right? Their doctrine implies that
they are the oracles of God! After all, they allege they are "sin free" now.
James said,
James 1:26
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.James 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.Love rejoices in the truth, Paul said.
1 Corinthians 13:5-7
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.The truth is, in this life, the saints are always "striving against sin," [Hebrews 12:4] and the flesh wars against the spirit. [Romans 7:23]
Doug
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 02:31:58 AM
I am really kind of getting a kick out of the lack of understanding I see in "some" posts,
- Do human kind ever get sin free in this life while Christ Lives in YOU??
This is what we strive for. It is the goal.
Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 02:31:58 AM
- Are YOU reconciled in this life or the next, i.e. Even being Spiritually Reborn IN Christ while in this terrestriel form.
Yes, Jesus promised to give us the Spirit that leads us to the truth and gives us understanding. If we follow him, we are among his sheep.
John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Being like sheep is not like being like a horse.
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.I understand the horses and mules in Zechariah's prophecy, who are in the tents of the armies fighting against the saints, and who are struck by plague, as symbolic of those who lack understanding. [Zechariah 14:15]
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 02:31:58 AM
I find it strange that %99.9 % of UR's believe like the "Churches" believe, that Jesus is a failure and did not kill death, bring in immortality to all mankind. How strange.
Lee
[/list]
Jesus is the only one who has attained immortality.
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. He is the firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Doug
Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 18, 2009, 06:36:31 AM
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
Sin conscience is an outer court doctrine.
The fulfillment of all things written is an inner court teaching.
The outer was done away with in AD 70!
Thus taken away covenantally!
The temple of God in the verses quoted above, Revelation 11:1-2, represents the church, and the kingdom of God, of which the
apostles and
prophets are the foundation. Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 2:19-22
So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;
in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit. James Burton Coffman's commentary says of this prophecy:
"Temple of God" in this passage is impossible to accept as a reference to the literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem, called by the Son of God himself a "den of thieves and robbers." That an angel of God should have been concerned with having John measure that desolation (Matthew 23:38) is inconceivable. "It scarcely seems possible to doubt that temple here is used figuratively for the faithful portion of the Church of Christ." In fact, the word here rendered temple is actually sanctuary (ASV margin), "The Greek word [nous] means the "holy house, where God dwells ... The use of [Greek: nous] here for the thing to be measured makes a literal interpretation of temple impossible." "For John, the temple is the Christian Church, the people of God." "This sanctuary symbolizes the true church." John was told to leave the outer court that was given to Gentiles unmeasured. It is the saints of God that John wanted to describe, or measure, in his prophecy. The saints are the ones represented by the temple itself, and its stones and pillars. The two witnesses in this chapter, that are killed by the beast, represent the
scriptures and the
holy Spirit, that are depicted as corpses left unburied in the street. Jesus identified the scriptures and the Spirit as two things that "testify" of him, so they are two "witnesses". One who "testifies" is a
witness.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures, for in them you think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:The great city in the prophecy is not Jerusalem, as Jerusalem represents the saints, who the Gentiles tread under foot for 42 months. [vs. 2] The great city called Sodom and Egypt is symbolic of the entire
world, or human society, as both Sodom and Egypt represent places from which God's people
escaped.
The Gentiles trample the saints, and occupy the outer court of the temple, which accurately depicts Christendom today. The saints who are trampled include the apostles, and the prophets, who are the foundation of the church.
Now let's look at Barry's claims about the above scriptures and 70 AD. He thinks the covenant and the law were done away, and "all that was written" was fulfilled then. He seems to be a follower of Max R. King, the notorious hyper-preterist, who proposed these doctrines. They misunderstand the words of Jesus, who said all will be fulfilled in "this generation." Jesus of course, is part of that generation, and he remains alive, having risen from the grave on the third day. Hyper-preterists stumble upon his words.
Notice Revelation 11:19:
And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.What is the significance of the ark of the covenant that is seen in the temple? The temple represents the saints. The ark within it can only mean that the new covenant is being fulfilled in them! And this agrees with what Paul said.
2 Corinthians 3:2-6
2 Ye are our epistle, written in our hearts, known and read of all men;
3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh.
4 And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. John's prophecy in Revelation 11 shows that the covenant is not abolished, but
confirmed to Christ's saints. He does write his laws on our hearts!
Doug
Doug: you have a talent with words, I once had a Baptist friend who was just a "Little" more talented, but he could make every thought he thought line up with every "thought" he "thought" was right, or 'God Spoken' as he thought.
So IF you ever find that sin free life 'in this life' then you may have some inkling of where I am coming from, until then, you will never " ' Know ' "
" When you are made Vivified (Alive ) in the only person that has immortality, then you will understand that sin free LIFE.
Sorry that we are worlds apart in understandings, truly God Bless
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: DougJesus is the only one who has attained immortality.
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
But, Jesus tells us that so shall we if we believe on him.
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.We are also told that Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers.
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.And Paul uses the same Greek word, athanasia, when he tells us--
1 Corinthians 15:53:
"this mortal must put on immortality."
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2009, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: DougJesus is the only one who has attained immortality.
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
But, Jesus tells us that so shall we if we believe on him.
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
We are also told that Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And Paul uses the same Greek word, athanasia, when he tells us--
: "this mortal must put on immortality."
Yes, but when do we receive this immortality?
1 Corinthians 15:12-23
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. It is to occur for us
at his coming. At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are
alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.
Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Also David was said to be still in his sepulchre. Yet he is one of the saints, and a prophet.
Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.If they are immortal, when did that event occur?
Doug
Quote from: DougIt is to occur for us at his coming.
At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.
Jesus did not give that caveat. He was very clear in responding to the Sadduccees who said there was no resurrection, that they are alive--
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. --Mark 12
QuoteIt is to occur for us at his coming.
But, when might that be? Might it be different for different people? Paul tells us as much.
23 But every man in his own order:...
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2009, 08:24:18 PM
Quote from: DougIt is to occur for us at his coming.
At least, that is how I understand it. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as alive, and yet he mentioned this as proof of a resurrection. They are alive in the sense that God remembers his covenant with them, but for now they remain "asleep" in their graves.
Jesus did not give that caveat. He was very clear in responding to the Sadduccees who said there was no resurrection, that they are alive--
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
--
QuoteIt is to occur for us at his coming.
But, when might that be? Might it be different for different people? Paul tells us as much.
23 But every man in his own order:...
1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Looks like (1) Christ; (2) they that are Christ's, at his coming; (3) "Then cometh the end." And so the last one must include the resurrection of the judgment.
Perhaps this is what he meant by "every man in his own order."
The last, the judgment, is also the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14. That is when "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," come to the "living fountains of waters."
Doug
Well personally, Hope you are filled with your thinkings !
But for this son of God, His coming (appearing) has come, appeared and dose appear each and every day I look at my reflection, I see HIM.
second rezz, done, over, I AM alive fore ever , immortal.
so if you have an issue with me being sin free, I am sure you would not of believed HIM either. And you would be trying to
teach Him too. 'teach him that he is a
dead creature walking around this world of dead people'.
Sad to hear of this sad condition, dead people. The only requriement of this life is that you believe you are alive fore ever in Christ now on earth and you are, or you can just continue in unbelief and find out when you get home. Or you could make a BIG differance in mankind, i.e. show that life to others and that is what
Grace is.... (Bible Grace )
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 09:41:22 PM
But for this son of God, His coming (appearing) has come, appeared and dose appear each and every day I look at my reflection, I see HIM.
Not me. I look in the Bible. :Sparkletooth:
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 09:41:22 PM
second rezz, done, over, I AM alive fore ever , immortal.
I'm holding out for something better...
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 09:41:22 PM
so if you have an issue with me being sin free, I am sure you would not of believed HIM either. And you would be trying to teach Him too. 'teach him that he is a dead creature walking around this world of dead people'.
Sad to hear of this sad condition, dead people. The only requriement of this life is that you believe you are alive fore ever in Christ now on earth and you are, or you can just continue in unbelief and find out when you get home. Or you could make a BIG differance in mankind, i.e. show that life to others and that is what Grace is.... (Bible Grace )
I don't think Jesus went around saying "I'm sin free!" But he did good works, that showed God was with him. Jesus said those who do the will of His Father are wise, but many will be disappointed when they are told by Jesus, "I never knew you."
[Matthew 7:23]
Doug
Doug, That's your problem, you think your right about "at the last day", YOUR still stuck in the rapture lie taught by the Church or parts of it and don't know the Last day is when YOUR last day comes, here and now.
You keep holding out to a dead end. I will see you when you join Us.
JC never said he was sin free because He was under the Law and he could not reveil this to unbelievers and he had not YET bought back mankind from the ruler 'death'.... Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 10:52:46 PM
Doug, That's your problem, you think your right about "at the last day", YOUR still stuck in the rapture lie taught by the Church or parts of it and don't know the Last day is when YOUR last day comes, here and now.
In each case where John uses the phrase "the last day" he refers to the resurrection, not a person's death. In the case of Lazarus, he had been dead already several days. So it refers to the last day yet to come at the end of the age, the time of the judgment.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 21, 2009, 10:52:46 PM
You keep holding out to a dead end. I will see you when you join Us.
JC never said he was sin free because He was under the Law and he could not reveil this to unbelievers and he had not YET bought back mankind from the ruler 'death'.... Lee
It was the Pharisees who were self-deluded about being "sin free."
Luke 18:10-15
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Doug
Oh but they were not wrong, because at the time that their high priest went into the temple once a year for their sin, they were sinfree for a nono second. but only a very short time did they remain clean.
give or take.
I do realize that you have a belief system that is not mine, and "I" feel that this is ok, I have no problem with that. Just remember tho that your typed words will not change the facts of Who I AM or What I have Become IN Christ. I will eternally stay away of the valley of the Dead. Spiritually of course.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 22, 2009, 12:15:21 AM
Oh but they were not wrong, because at the time that their high priest went into the temple once a year for their sin, they were sinfree for a nono second. but only a very short time did they remain clean.
give or take.
Not even that, according to the author of Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:3-4
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. The function of the sacrifices, ritual washings, etc., was to depict the need for some remedy for sin. It was to remind them they were sinners in need of a savior.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 22, 2009, 12:15:21 AM
I do realize that you have a belief system that is not mine, and "I" feel that this is ok, I have no problem with that. Just remember tho that your typed words will not change the facts of Who I AM or What I have Become IN Christ. I will eternally stay away of the valley of the Dead. Spiritually of course.
The apostle John gives us a balanced view; no need for self-delusion. Rather, the opposite.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.Doug
Quote from: DougJohn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the
resurrection at the last day
.
We see that Jesus is frustrated at this answer from Martha.
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? ---John 11
Is the last day and the day of his coming the same day and the same day for all people?
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
--Mal 3
In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.
Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to be wrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING. --J. Preston Eby
Eby's post was beautiful,Molly. Thanks for posting it.
Yes, it is wonderful to be a son/daughter of God and to
come to know of your inheritance of eternal life.
However, that is just the beginning. He refines,
chastises,reproves,rebukes, removes erronous teachings and
doctrines...so you may be presented spotless and blameless at
His coming of the last day.
If you beleive[erronously] that your already there, then you
end up in a spirtual condition like the church of Laodicea.
'I am rich, I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing,
but you do not realize that you are wretched.pitiful,poor,
blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined
in the fire,so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear
so you can cover your shameful nakedness and salve to put on
your eyes so you can see.
TO WHOM I LOVE I REBUKE AND DISCIPLINE
SO BE EARNEST AND REPENT.
HERE I AM...I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK
IF ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR
I WILL COME IN AND EAT WITH HIM
AND HIM WITH ME
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on
my throne, just as I overcame, and sat down with my Father
on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear
what the spirit says to the churches
He syas He will always be with us..He comes to us,again and
again, to do for us what we can not do of ourselves..
and there is a time when He will appear to us..'seperate'
from sin. And when that time occurrs we will be able to stand
in HIS TRUTH AND PURITY..Free from all the spiritual maladies
outlined in His address to the Seven churches
Lee, I rejoice with you in your sonship, but dear brother
your not finished yet. Coz it's not over til it's over.
And your about to get an education like you wouldn't belive
And HE DOES THIS TO EVERYONE HE RECEIVES AS A SON
Isaaih 53;9
HE WAS ASSIGNED A GRAVE WITH THE WICKED
AND WITH THE RICH IN HIS DEATH
THOUGH HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE
NOR WAS ANY DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH
You know, when were born again of the spirit, we are
in His image...and we also are assigned a grave with the
wicked[our body undergoing this death with sin in it]
Though the child of God be blameless that is born in us..
it is 'bearing the sin"
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many
v12 therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong
because he poured out his life unto death
and was numbered with the transgressors,
and this is their vindication from me
:cloud9: Amen to you, ladies...... :thumbsup:
Truly Shela thanks, I will never be there all the way till we are ALL back in the father, As a whole in one
(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1672/1672704hwdhhfn2oy.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
:cloud9: Cute PC but I always figured you more of the dove type :winkgrin:
An event comes from how it is perceived, which creates the context.
Harmless as a dove, but wiser than a serpent. :mblush:
Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2009, 01:29:49 AM
Is the last day and the day of his coming the same day and the same day for all people?
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
--Mal 3
Peter calls the believers "a royal priesthood," [1 Peter 2:9] and the priests were supposed to be from the tribe of Levi, so the sons of Levi in verse 3 above could be taken as a metaphor representing the saints. In that case, Malachi's prophecy may be fulfilled throughout the entire history of the church. But, as John says, he who has an ear, let him hear.
There are many ways to avoid understanding it in that way. Preterists probably apply it to events in 70 AD, and I think dispensationalists would say it applies to Jews in the Millennium. I would ask them, how could the literal "sons of Levi" be identified, and made genetically pure again? They have intermarried with Gentiles for thousands of years!
Malachi's prophecy above can be compared with this one by Zechariah, who uses the same metaphor of refining gold and silver.
Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.
Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD.
The apostle Peter compared the trial of our faith to gold.
1 Peter 1:4-8
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:IMO, "at the appearing of Jesus Christ" seems to refer to the time of the resurrection of the saints, the seventh trumpet, yet to occur in the future, and perhaps the event described here:
Revelation 14:14-16
14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2009, 01:29:49 AM
In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.
Yes, the messages in Revelation to the 7 churches also indicate that Christ comes in many different ways and at different times.
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:16
Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:25
Nevertheless that which ye have, hold fast till I come.
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:11
I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2009, 01:29:49 AM
Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to be wrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING. [/i]
--J. Preston Eby
Doug
Quote from: DougZechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.
Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD.
That's interesting. The sheep were scattered, and continue to be scattered. So, when will they be brought together as one?
Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2009, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: DougZechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
This one could also apply to the entire history of the church, for those with ears to hear. Jesus referred to it.
Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Jesus identified himself as the shepherd, and the saints as his sheep. Today, there are more than 38,000 sects and denominations where believers or saints are scattered. However, once again, literalists can point out that Zechariah's sheep must be Jewish ones! Preterists probably see it as fulfilled in 70 AD.
That's interesting. The sheep were scattered, and continue to be scattered. So, when will they be brought together as one?
The prophecy of Ezekiel 34, I think, addresses your question.
Ezekiel 34:12
As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.So it is in the cloudy and dark day, which is how the prophet Joel describes the day of the Lord, [Joel 2:1] and also Zephaniah, [Zephaniah 1:15] Amos, [Amos 5:18] Zechariah, [Zechariah 14:6-7] etc.
Incidentally, the
scattering need not be geographical. It could also refer to the
scattering of the theological views and interpretations of the saints.
Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.Doug
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
--Acts 15
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
--Rom 10
:cloud9: Odd; I just really took notice for the first time, that Paul advised them to follow part of the LAW, ie. no sexual immorality, no meat polluted by idols, and no eating of blood. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 23, 2009, 08:47:01 PM
:cloud9: Odd; I just really took notice for the first time, that Paul advised them to follow part of the LAW, ie. no sexual immorality, no meat polluted by idols, and no eating of blood. Blessings.....
Yes, that is explained to be because "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." in verse 21.
This could either mean that since the only way these believers could hear the scriptures being read was to be able to go into the synagogue, and the 4 specific practices would have resulted in them being expelled from being able to go there, that if they adhered to these prohibitions they would be able to attend freely and hear the scriptures being expounded. As is known, that would have been about the only way to be taught from the scriptures at that time.
Ron
Yeah, it's all interesting Card. Maybe we oughta dig into that a little more. This is off the cuff - anything to do with Paul's "progressive revelation" maybe? The articles I posted for Nat in the Torah thread were pretty interesting along these lines.
Also, I ran across this on a site called unleavened bread ministries...
"I found 2 Chronicles 33:8, "... so that they will take heed
to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole
law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."
Yup, they sure had some ordinances back there from Moses alright,
lots of them! Six hundred and thirteen of them, they say.
Then it happened, to borrow a word from Gomer Pyle of
the old Andy Griffith Show, "Shazzam!" (properly pronounced
with a Carolina accent) Up popped Ephesians 2:15, "Having
abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments
[contained] in ordinances." Right there in the New Testament
it says, "abolished."
Hmmm, some things to think about fo' sure... :bigGrin:
P.S. just saw your post Ron, good points.
Also, it has been suggested that he was prohibiting those things most closely associated with pagan customs.
[my letter 'l' sticks]
Thanks for adding that to the understanding Molly. Anyone doing those things would most certainly have shocked the natural Jew. We know that later Paul actually showed that eating meat sacrificed to idols was not a problem, but since not all have that understanding, they would be wise to act in a way so as not to cause stumbling. (1Co 8)
That little word "for" in verse 21 links back to verse 20, so the reading of Moses in the synagogues is in some way connected to and given as a reason for the prohibitions being given.
Ron
Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 09:03:09 PM
Yeah, it's all interesting Card. Maybe we oughta dig into that a little more. This is off the cuff - anything to do with Paul's "progressive revelation" maybe? The articles I posted for Nat in the Torah thread were pretty interesting along these lines.
Also, I ran across this on a site called unleavened bread ministries...
"I found 2 Chronicles 33:8, "... so that they will take heed
to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole
law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."
Yup, they sure had some ordinances back there from Moses alright,
lots of them! Six hundred and thirteen of them, they say.
Then it happened, to borrow a word from Gomer Pyle of
the old Andy Griffith Show, "Shazzam!" (properly pronounced
with a Carolina accent) Up popped Ephesians 2:15, "Having
abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments
[contained] in ordinances." Right there in the New Testament
it says, "abolished."
What was abolished? Evidently it does not include this commandment:
Ephesians 6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.Hmm..
Seems that Paul thought that the promise included in this commandment was still valid! Or else, why would he say it was "the first commandment with promise"? Obviously, he believed the promise attached to it was still in effect. It had not been abolished. In chapter 5, he alludes to the commandment about coveting, and the one against idolatry. Transgression of those brings "the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."
So there is 3 out of 10, in the same book of Ephesians, which was written not to Jews, but to Christians in a Gentile city.
Ephesians 5:1-8
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: More food for thought.. :Sparkletooth:
Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2009, 05:01:04 PM
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
--Acts 15
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
--Rom 10
The Relationship Between Good Works and Salvation (http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/workssal.htm)
Doug
As far as I can see, you've nailed it Doug.
At the end of Christ's reign..you can expect that the
salvation of all mankind would go forth in the earth.
The problem is..satan is released from the abyss at the
same time...and misleads the 'all nations' into fighting against
the camp of the city He loves.
Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2009, 11:33:54 PM
As far as I can see, you've nailed it Doug.
At the end of Christ's reign..you can expect that the
salvation of all mankind would go forth in the earth.
The problem is..satan is released from the abyss at the
same time...and misleads the 'all nations' into fighting against
the camp of the city He loves.
This might be helpful:
Sermons vpon the whole booke of the Reuelation, by George Gifford, 1599. (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/GR/GGM.html)
Doug
All of Rom. is progressive, what I mean is that he starts out talking of how it was with mankind, then moves on to what it is like with a Christ and then he moves on to what it is like IN Christ after the rezz.
A real good example of this is Rom. 3:23, "All have sinned." And this is talking to the people that was moving out of Law to IN Christ where there IS NO SIN i.e. IN the body of the Christ now - The Spiritual believer of the Son of God, Those that have faith to believe that Christ did it ALL FOR US and we don't have to do any thing. Except have faith in His Work... not ours.
Well Lee, I had mentioned was there any connection at all to what some call "progressive revelation" of Paul :dontknow:...
Let me see if I can explain a bit about what I understand (though I certainly don't think I have a full understanding of it, and I also personally seriously doubt that any of us do - I believe we all have pieces of it and can learn from each other if we're open to doing so.)
Anyway, I probably can't fully explain what I SORT OF see, but here are some thoughts on it. As far as what you pointed out Doug, it's obvious Paul said that. But it's also obvious he said this in Romans 8 -
"There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; 2for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; 3for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, 4that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; 6for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;"
So, haltingly I'll attempt to say it this way...I don't believe in living "lawlessly", but I also don't believe in being in bondage to "the Law" that Jesus came to fulfill, and then Paul on many occasions saying we are not to seek justification through the law, we are not under the law but under grace. So the best I can do with this right now is to see it as when we experience the new birth (believing on Jesus for our salvation) that He writes His will ("laws"?) on our heart, so that as we live IN HIM, He works through us, to teach as sons to be obedient and follow in His footsteps. I.e., if I've been called, chosen, God has given me faith to believe on Jesus as Savior and I love Him, then He will (through my heart/will) lead me away from sin and into His Life. I won't need to always be consulting a list of dos and don'ts (Law carved in stone) but rather the Spirit within me will be convicting, guiding, assisting, empowering me to please my Father (carved in my heart of flesh). For instance, since everything in the OT is for our learning, then I can see that honoring my father and mother is a good thing. It would be a way to please my Father, and I may even be blessed for it. [It was a Law for them] but as a NT grace believer to look at it as being "under that Law", it's honestly a little puzzling, since Paul said over and over we are not so, and Jesus said that loving God and our neighbor fulfills all the law. :Chinscratch:
I realize this isn't "complete" and is only a "talking point"/partial understanding, but does this sort of make any sense to anyone to where you can build on it?
Now why Paul referenced the Law (as in your post Doug), yet on so many occasions spoke against attempting to adhere to law, against seeing it as a means to be justified, saying the Law was a taskmaster leading us to Christ and now that we are children and not slaves so don't have a need for a taskmaster, etc., IMO opens up a WHOLE lot of need for Spirit revelation and rightly dividing the Word of truth. That's why I say "easy does it, we've all just got pieces of it and we need to help each other with it". My :2c:.
Gary Amirault - "According to Paul, the apostle to the nations, during the Church Age, we would only receive an "earnest" of the Holy Spirit, a down payment, so-to-speak of the fullness which would come at a different time. Many recent Christian writers see this typified in the feasts of Israel and in the Mosaic tabernacle. The feast of Pentecost and the Holy Place in the Mosaic Tabernacle represent the Church Age, the second phase of God's plan for the redemption of mankind. The Feast of Pentecost was celebrated with leaven which symbolized sin. An earnest of the Holy Spirit will not bring forth perfection or truth, it will bring forth a mixture, some truth and some error. (See "Beyond Jordan" article on tentmaker.org for a deeper explanation.) The end of Israel's history during the Old Covenant came to a very bad end. Many believe the Church Age is near its end. Usually changes from one dispensation to another bring great upheavals. I think the Church and the world-at-large is about to experience an upheaval of unprecedented proportions. This mixture of error and truth, law and grace, will make way for the final feast day and entrance into the Most Holy Place as typified in the Mosaic Tabernacle. The more we hold onto our old ways, consisting of the "traditions of men" and the "doctrines of demons," the more difficult the days will be for the Christian. But the more humble one becomes realizing we have learned much error during the mixed season, the more willing we are to put down our "traditions" so that the Holy Spirit can lead us into all truth, the easier will be our transition from the passing age to the age to come."
God's blessings, James.
Jabcat, I am truly impressed as to how easy you put it into words, It is kind of exactly what I mean, all I can add is,Even some of Paul's writings like Rom. is progressive, most of Rom. is talking to Peoples coming out of Law or Israel or a mix of gentiles and Jews, so when he talks to them he has to preach what God had promised to fulfill to "Them" Then he moves on to a higher understanding....
I know that most people don't like it when I/anyone recommends a book but at Concordant.org in the catalog section buy the book The Gospel of Our Salvation 6 Dollars I think, It "Will" change you to much more Spiritual in your understanding. Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 24, 2009, 02:40:07 AM
some of Paul's writings like Rom. is progressive, most of Rom. is talking to Peoples coming out of Law or Israel or a mix of gentiles and Jews, so when he talks to them he has to preach what God had promised to fulfill to "Them" Then he moves on to a higher understanding....
Thanks Lee, and that's very interesting. I had never really thought of Paul's writings as being "progressive revelation" until recently...I'm not real versed on it, I need to look at it some more. It might help explain some things, help us in rightly dividing the Word of truth. I've said this for awhile, and though I've believed it, this is just one more example of maybe I'm actually learning a little more about it - and that is, I don't believe the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided, contradict themselves...If those things aren't present, they can seem to, we can argue til we're blue in the face, and start thousands of denominations (oh wait, that's already happened :laughing7:). But, if those 3 things are present, They
fit together if we "get it"...Maybe we're getting it a bit at a time :bigGrin:.
Do angels singing count as end times? :bigGrin:
Some might have already heard this but--
Angels Singing
in a Kansas Church
Story behind the tape and singing on audio at--
http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/angels/angels-4.htm
Presumed angel solo--
Halleluyah(s) ringing all across the land
Everybody's singing at the Lord's command
All the saints and the angels up in glory wait to hear the news
of Jesus and his children as they're coming through.
Halleluyah, halleluyah
Something like the "sin free" idea is what over the years has made some friends of mine go back to the world. "It didn't work for me," they said. One had to be, "True to myself," was how he put it. The evidence from that born of Adam was being taken as self's identity, while the lust of the spirit against the flesh was diverted by turning aside to what he was more habituated. Another said, "I tried. God knows I tried. Nobody's tried harder. I just couldn't change." I answered him, "It's not about your change; but, it's all about His presence." We must deny ourselves for however long it takes. While peace will develop from pursuing intimacy with God's Spirit, it is wrong to think that continual or intermittent battle means we've failed to either believe aright or that we just aren't one of "the saved." Even failures to live up to the perfect standard in God's law are not evidence of a reprobate. In fact, many "reprobates" become mighty in the Lord.
Those saved from the homosexual lifestyle are an ideal example of this, as that sin marks a condemned culture. Many who follow after the Lord find the impulses of their flesh may be indulged in approved channels, like marriage, family, career, peer recognition, traditional religion and the like. There is not a profound contradiction between their human life and partaking of the Divine nature. But often with homosexual sin it is so life controlling and has so long been taken as one's identity that the deepest work of discovering the distinction between the Adam and Christ nature within is required. The differences must be recognized to exercise faithfulness between that of the world, the flesh, and the devil in the natural soul life, to completely cut it down, and evidences of spirit, which are to be given over to, so bringing life and peace. Early, in our developing walk with God, as it was also early in the days of preparation when Jesus had not yet been revealed, John the Baptist says: "Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire." (Mt 3:10-12, CLT) "Chaff" first is, "Grain husks after separation from the seed" (The American Heritage Dictionary.) The flesh, primarily an entity presenting in the soul, is the chaff, an outer husk that is burning as long as the body born from Adam is worn by the Seed. That body is malfunctioning because of inherited mortality.
The initial work of the Spirit causes us to be experientially aware of the reality of God. It is normal to have subsequent episodes when we are not aware of His presence. Whether it occurs because of sin or He simply retracts His manifestation to draw us into a deeper intimacy, this seeming separation in what is commonly called the work of sanctification is part of an ongoing relationship with God. No one other than the Father knows when we will be finished with the war against sin. Even Jesus so earnestly resisted sin He was sweating great drops of blood to the very last of His life in this body of humiliation. David also speaks of learning obedience: "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word." (Ps 119:67, AV) Real progress is made. Continuing to walk after the Spirit we mature. "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by ('in') Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect (or, 'be adjusting you,') stablish, strengthen, settle ('founding') you." (1 Pt 5:10, AV)
The new birth, being born from above, or born again is spiritual regeneration, what happens when God's Spirit is revealed in union with our spirit, together inhabiting the same body. It is only a beginning. The consummation is the liberation of the purchased possession. Then we will be so constituted to see God as He is. The earnest of the Spirit is not to be mistaken for the inheritance itself. It is only the Spirit of Promise, that is, the "promissory" Spirit, demonstrating attributes of the Divine nature in foretaste. Healings promise a nature over which death has no more dominion. Word of wisdom or knowledge are little tastes ahead of time of what it means to have the mind of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14-16 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.
It seems clear that "the law of precepts in decrees" (loc.cit., Ep 2:15) refers to the ceremonial law, not the moral law. The parallel passage, Col 2:14 (ref., Col 2:11, 16, 17) shows it is the regulations concerning fasts, feasts, offerings, circumcision, etc. Christ through His suffering and death ended the ceremonial obligations, which were but shadows He fulfilled, "...that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace." The Moral law, specially "The Ten Words," or, "Ten Commandments" are different even in the way they were received. They were spoken in the hearing of all the people. They are not set aside, but written in our hearts. Paul underscores the value of the law for the lawless, enumerating conditions contrary to the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus:
1 Timothy 1:5-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 Now the consummation of the charge is love out of a clean heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith,
6 from which some, swerving, were turned aside into vain prating,
7 wanting to be teachers of the law, not apprehending either what they are saying, or that concerning which they are insisting.
8 Now we are aware that the law is ideal if ever anyone is using it lawfully,
9 being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,
10 paramours, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,
11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.
Good post James, more to think on for sure.
:cloud9: Good post, reformer :thumbsup:
Barry: :boyheart: :happy3: Thank you,
when ever people in religion have ever talked to me about end times, I most often run into the type "I call" Dooms-dayers, But what almost all end timers have in common is that they always tell you what Scripture Means...
Barry, YOUR post have given me extreme incite and some other are so set in their old "Religious Ways" , It is so unbelieveable how many people still believe the old Rapture Lie, Weather pre-post or whatever. If only all mankind would just realize what the presence of the Son of God is...
The coming
The arriving
The indwelling
etc......
Some will never give an inch, but the sad part is that the knowledge they do have is wasted in some simple error. Because They Just Can't be proven wrong....
Thank you all for every thing... Wish I could get this dam spell check fixed.
Lee
HE IS JESUS
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w7t9DyGkqg
Often times there is confusion in rightly dividing the 'word of
truth' due to not reckognizing that there are two vessels in each
lump.
Every scripture that speaks of judgement without mercy is
unto the 'man of sin/old Adam/vessel' fitted for destruction
in all mankind that goes into everlasting cutting off.
Every scripture in regard to the Blessings is unto the new
man/formed in Christ/vessel of mercy in all mankind tht is
granted eternal life
Sheila- This is My input on Two lumps.
SIN FREE ?
A further exhortation along this line has been found in a writing received many years ago from our friend Connie Asbill. She wrote, "We find, then, that God has called us out of bondage and into bondage! The Word says, of course, that God has called us to liberty! And so He has. The seeming conflict between the two thoughts is cleared up when we consider Paul's explanation to the Romans. Hear it! 'Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey his servants (Greek: Slaves) ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness?.. Being then made Free From Sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.... for when ye were slaves of sin, ye were free from righteousness ... but now being made free from sin, and become slaves unto God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end life everlasting'(Rom. 6:16-22 ) Did you hear it? 'Ye were slaves of sin--- but have become the slaves of God,' Beloved, that slavery is a nature, and we were once slaves to a nature. Now, however, we are becoming slaves again---to a new nature! God has called us unto liberty, but He has said that when you are a slave to sin, you are free from God! When, on the other hand, you are a slave to God, then you are free--- free from sin! Free from Adam. That is why Paul said, 'The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law (nature) of sin and death! Are we grasping the significance of this? We must see that in order for the spirit to be free, the flesh must be bound. There cannot be liberty for both the flesh and spirit, for the two are enemies and will create continual warfare if both are free. If we would have a freedom of spirit, there must come a bondage to the flesh. When the flesh is free, the spirit is bound, and when the flesh bound, the spirit is free! Oh, can we pray with the songwriter, 'Set my spirit free that I may worship Thee,' though we realize that in the asking we plead with God for a bondage to be placed upon the flesh man, Adam? There are many forms that the nature of bondage God is working into us will manifest itself. If we are to respond to Him in ever circumstance, we must settle beforehand that we do not want to be free!
"This was the law of the Hebrew slave who had served his master for six years and the time came for his dismissal. But he loved his master and did not want to go out free! If the slave plainly said, 'I love my master,,, I will not go out free, 'then his master brought him to the doorpost and bored his ear through with an awl; and he served him forever. Here we see a beautiful picture of our own relationship to our Master, Jesus Christ. Bought with His blood, the slave is brought into bondage for 'six years.' Six is the number of the flesh, and this time element, therefore, represents the length of time that, though bought with His blood, we live in the bondage of the flesh. As the slave allows Christ, however, to chasten, to discipline, to bind and to bring him into servitude to Himself, he is, in that six years being changed from glory to glory until there comes an end to the fleshly appetites, an end to the rule of the ego-man inside, an end to the 'six years.' The Lord will then declare to him, 'Now you are free! You have overcome!
The slave is free to go—to live his own life—to be his own man—but so thoroughly has the Master's way of life become his own that he finds at the end of that time he is bound by a greater bondage than the law of commandments which held him for six years, for now the slave says, 'I LOVE !' Hallelujah! Something has been worked into him. ; I LOVE MY MASTER ! I LOVE MY MASTER'S FAMILY! I WILL NOT BE FREE
"Ah, he knows the price of such a declaration! 'Then his master shall bring him unto the judges...and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall serve him forever!' It was of this slave that the prophet Isaiah spoke when he said, " The lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back' ( Isa. 50:5 ). The true hearing of the word of God will work a death in a man and will bring him into the bondage of the obedience of faith. This slave was a hearing one, for it was the hearing that brought him to the place of such love that he would deliberately choose bondage rather than liberty. He received, then, the eternal seal of a hearing one, scarred for life through the wounding if the master's tool, having his ear circumcised to hear only that which the Father is speaking! Jesus said, 'The words that I speak unto you I speak not of my self... but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things' (Jn. 14:10; 8:28). This is that final bondage to which the slave came in the piercing of his ear. Do we desire that bondage, and can we pray... I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem --Restrained by His holy word.--Though I'm freeborn, I'm a bondslave son,--Bound by the Spirit of the Lord!---Bind me with fetters from above, --Let Thy rod now fall on me.'---Kept in chains by Father's love,--Thy slave-son I would ever be! "Let us yield ourselves to His discipline, allow Him to work that bondage into us, lay that rod upon our flesh, for we will find, in the end, that it has been HIS OWN NATURE that we have received! There is no place, now, for self. We must submit ourselves, yea, even seek out, the restraining influence of the Spirit and the Word. Do we love our Master ?" --- end quote. Kingdom Bible Studies, From the candlestick to the Throne, Part 6 page 3, supplied by Lee Damboise II 8/29/05 —J. Preston Eby's Writings
Quote from: LeeThe lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back' ( Isa. 50:5 ). The true hearing of the word of God will work a death in a man and will bring him into the bondage of the obedience of faith. This slave was a hearing one, for it was the hearing that brought him to the place of such love that he would deliberately choose bondage rather than liberty. He received, then, the eternal seal of a hearing one, scarred for life through the wounding if the master's tool, having his ear circumcised to hear only that which the Father is speaking! Jesus said, 'The words that I speak unto you I speak not of my self... but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things' (Jn. 14:10; 8:28). This is that final bondage to which the slave came in the piercing of his ear. Do we desire that bondage, and can we pray... I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem --Restrained by His holy word.--Though I'm freeborn, I'm a bondslave son,--Bound by the Spirit of the Lord!---Bind me with fetters from above,
Paul was on his way to Damascus with orders to arrest the practicing Christians there. He honestly thought he was doing the Lord's work. How could he think otherwise? He was blinded.
When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus,
his honest reaction shows how blinded this well educated Pharisee, educated in all matters of religion and God's holy word, really was,--
Who are you?If we are blind, we are not free. We have no choices because we cannot see all our options.
Paul, a rich man, an educated man, a Roman citizen, a Jew of Jews of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee learned under Gameliel, had every choice under the sun of his day, but, once he was free to choose--he chose Christ.
Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2009, 05:51:47 PM
Quote from: LeeThe lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back' ( Isa. 50:5 ). The true hearing of the word of God will work a death in a man and will bring him into the bondage of the obedience of faith. This slave was a hearing one, for it was the hearing that brought him to the place of such love that he would deliberately choose bondage rather than liberty. He received, then, the eternal seal of a hearing one, scarred for life through the wounding if the master's tool, having his ear circumcised to hear only that which the Father is speaking! Jesus said, 'The words that I speak unto you I speak not of my self... but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things' (Jn. 14:10; 8:28). This is that final bondage to which the slave came in the piercing of his ear. Do we desire that bondage, and can we pray... I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem --Restrained by His holy word.--Though I'm freeborn, I'm a bondslave son,--Bound by the Spirit of the Lord!---Bind me with fetters from above,
Paul was on his way to Damascus with orders to arrest the practicing Christians there. He honestly thought he was doing the Lord's work. How could he think otherwise? He was blinded.
When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, his honest reaction shows how blinded this well educated Pharisee, educated in all matters of religion and God's holy word, really was,-- Who are you?
If we are blind, we are not free. We have no choices because we cannot see all our options.
Discover for yourself what Scriptures actually teach about the work of Christ. There is one thing most hold in common: the confidence that man can use his own " Positive Volition" or "Free Will" to accept Christ and get himself "saved" .
More than a century ago a great man of God, A. P. Adams, penned the following: "I wish to add a word further in regard to the Salvation of ALL men, suggested by the following extract which I clipped from one of my exchanges. The extract is as follows: The Rev. B.W. Ward, the popular Boston evangelist, and efficient superintendent of the Bleeker St. Mission. Thus beautifully illustrates the Gift of Salvation: A friend of mine invited me into a jewelry store and asked the clerk for samples of their pocket knives. Placing the price of he best one alongside of it, on the counter, he said, Ward, I want to make you a little present. There's a knife and there is the price of it, make your choice. Take which one you will as a momento from me. ( Just like mike saying with a dollar bill in hand, just reach out and take it.) Now, said the evangelist, whose knife was that while it lay there on the counter? It wasn't mine. It would become mind by my deciding to accept it; but without such an act on my part it was not for me. So of salvation. Jesus has paid the price, but the sinner must decide whether or not he will reach forth and take it before it becomes his. ( Now is this what Your Religion Teaches ?)
In this extract it will be seen that the salvation of the individual is made to depend upon his own decision. THE SINNER MUST DECIDE, and as he decides so will his future destiny be to all eternity. Thus ONE'S salvation is practically made to depend on one's self. God and Christ have done or are doing their part and now they simply wait for the sinner's decision. By the way, how long did God wait for the ' decision ' of Saul of Tarsus when [ it pleased God to call him ?]
Most people, however, would accept the above extract as a correct presentation of the case, and would assent thereto without any hesitation. But there is a fatal defect in the illustration. The case of the one choosing the knife or {Michael's and Dave's story of the dollar bill } is NOT PARALLEL TO THAT OF THE SINNER CHOOSING SALVATION, because the former has his EYES WIDE OPEN and knows full well the value of what is presented to him for his choice, while the LATTER IS BLINDED, and knoweth not what he does, 'but if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost; in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ ...should shine unto them (II Cor. 4: 3-4 ).
" The bible plainly teaches that fallen man is blinded to the truth; the soulical man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the spirit.
This the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him. In the first place, he does not know that he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation. Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him in Christ is worth anything. All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.
Furthermore the sinner is surrounded by circumstances entirely adverse to his acceptance of Christ. And finally, worse than all, 'the mind of the flesh' a corrupt nature, an 'evil heart of unbelief,' a body of death,' that leans toward the BAD and opposes the good continually: and mark you, all these things are circumstances over which the individual has NO control and for which he is NOT to blame. "Again, mark you, that if he overcomes these unfavorable circumstances and in spite of them does accept Christ, it must be by some power OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF, for in himself he would never have any power for his own deliverance. This is the teaching of the 7th chapter of Romans. God must deliver him if he is delivered at ALL he must bring him to the knowledge of his lost condition, so that he will feel his need of a Saviour, and he must give him repentance and faith. God must open his eyes so that he shall not only see the need, but also the priceless value of salvation, that like the apostle Paul, he will be willing to count all things but dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus his Lord.
" And he must be endowed with power to overcome the evil around and within him. ALL this help must come from God, and must be imparted to the sinner before he can make the slightest movement toward salvation. Are there any such elements as these in the case of the man choosing the knife? Is it not plain that that illustration and the case of the sinner are NOT PARALLEL at all? And yet just such illustrations are constantly presented as setting forth exactly the case of the sinner in "his" choice or rejection of salvation in Christ! The fact is there are many factors to be taken into account in the regeneration and new creation of a human being. It is not such a small matter as picking up a little present that a friend passes over to you. Hence these illustrations are very faulty and misleading " -----------end quote.
When addressing the unsaved, an evangelist often drew an analogy between Gods sending the gospel to the sinner, and a sick man in bed, with some healing medicine on a table by his side; all he needs to do is reach forth his hand and take it, ( like Michael's or Dave's dollar bill story )
But in order for this illustration to be in any wise true to the picture which scriptures gives us of the fallen and deprived sinner, the sick man in bed must be described as one who is Blind(Eph. 4:18),so that he can not see the medicine, his hand paralyzed(Rom.5:6) so that he is unable to reach forth for it, and his heart not only devoid of all confidence in the medicine but filled with hatred against the physician himself (Jn. 15:18 ). Oh, what superficial views of man's desperate plight are not entertained!
Christ come here NOT to help those who were willing to help themselves, or even those willing to be helped, but to do for people what they were incapable of doing for them selves: "to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house". (Isa. 42:7)
Some one will ask, "will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is NO ! He will have no need to do that, for ALL men will be 100% willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened. We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. {new-cov.Jer 31:31 or Ez.36:26-27 ). There are those who suppose that God could not convert a soul unless that depraved and lost soul gives to almighty God that permission. ( NOT ). I only wish they would ask the Apostle Paul, that Great despiser of Christ and hater of His church, that persecutor of Christians, who while on his way to Damascus was suddenly cast to the ground and converted (turned ). No man was ever more hateful toward Christ than was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came (to see the light), he changed in an instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance, "Who art thou, Lord? " and "What will thou have me do ?" Did God ask Saul of Tarsus whether or not he wanted to be saved ?, or did He say to Ananias, "He is a chosen vessel unto me to bear My name before the gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15 )
It is only God who can change the human heart, and when God wills to change every single human heart in earth and in hell, each will be changed in an INSTANT (Twinkle ).
Jer,31:31-34 Plus Ez.36:26-27
Behold, the days come, saith the lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their "hearts"; and will be their God, and they shall be my people, 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, Saying, know the Lord: for they shall ALL know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their inquity, and I will remember their sin ( singular ) no more.
EZ. 36: 26-27 says, A new heart also will I give you, and 'ALL'. a new spirit will I put WITHIN YOU: and I will take away the stony heart out of you 'flesh' and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit WITHIN you, and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and DO THEM...29 And I will save you from ALL your uncleannesses, ( Sin ). Can you understand ALL This....?
Taken from the book "Saviour of the world series" By J. Preston Eby Just What Do You Mean " Man is a Free Moral Agent! Typed by Lee Damboise II
that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
"which is through" [the faith of Christ]
G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
--Phil 3
[as many as] "be perfect"
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
--Hebrews 13
1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
--Psa 32
12... you will not go out in haste,
Nor will you go as fugitives;
For the LORD will go before you,
And the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
--Isa 52
7Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
--Psa 32
"thou shalt compass me about"
H5437
סבב
sâbab
saw-bab'
A primitive root; to revolve, surround or border; used in various applications, literally and figuratively: - bring, cast, fetch, lead, make, walk, X whirl, X round about, be about on every side, apply, avoid, beset (about), besiege, bring again, carry (about), change, cause to come about, X circuit, (fetch a) compass (about, round), drive, environ, X on every side, beset (close, come, compass, go, stand) round about, remove, return, set, sit down, turn (self) (about, aside, away, back).
11Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
--Psa 32
Quote from: noname on November 19, 2009, 09:18:58 AM
the signs also include extreme weather changes on earth, which has been picking up in frequency over the last few years ie tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes...
also, the signs would also appear in the people of the world...it says that humanity's love will wane and grow cold...that violence and strife would increase, people would become selfish and lover's of self...
in Timothy we also find this about the last days:
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
I think we should all judge for ourselves and discern the signs, but I for one believes that we are pretty close to those last days
Okay, you had an interesting point about the prophecy regaurding the last days. If I am correct, we are currently in the last days, but that means the last age. From Jesus ascention into Heaven till his second coming will be known as the final age. If I am correct, the prophecy seems pretty relevant to the Middle Ages era. "Lovers of money" Lets see, all those Popes who in the Middle Ages who sold Indulgences for the sake of gaining money off of peoples stupidity. Yet, many Televangelists are playing on peoples fears by selling out these books of Hellish experiences, 2012 hoax, End of the world predictions, and Satan and demon attacks. Thats not something new. Boastful, proud, abusive. Since the dawn of the middle ages, we have seen many religious people who were such Pharisees. If you researched many of the quotes from many Medieval Theologians, they go about insulting other religions, racism, and a real Holier than thou attitude. They go off faming that they will be one of the few who are saved, since they had fasted the most, knew the scriptures the best, you get the picture. "Lovers of themselves." Beginning with the Augustinian times, Salvation turned into this idea that it only mattered if you were saved, and was prominent with both Catholic and Protestant traditions till now. "Loveless", as we have seen, throughout the middle ages till the late 1800's, there were some pretty sick quotes written by several Protestant and Catholic Theologians.
"They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints'. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost." St. Augustine
"In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned." St. Thomas Aquinas
Doesnt sound like too much love, sound pretty disgusting.
Now about the end of the World. Jesus said we were not to know the day the world came, and in fact no one does, not the Angels in Heaven nor the Son of man. So, we can safely assume that Jesus told us this to keep us vigilant till the end. But Ages have lasted a long time as science records. The first age as we know started in about 67000 BC, which was the record of the first Humans.(Represented by Adam and Eve, and the fall of man) people were not aware of God. 43000 year time span. By 24000BC, peole had started acknowledging higher beings, and therefore started Religion and Ethics.(Noahs ark, and the cleansing of ungodly behavior). 24000 year timespan. Then, Christ died at the beginning of the first Century, and Ressurected into Heaven starting the Final Age. this could be another 24000-19000 years before Christ comes again. Remember, 1000 years to us is only a day to the Lord. So, th God, that amount of time is only a few months or so to him, which is not long at all.
You're wading into deep water here, UC. :laughing7: Expect a WHOLE lot of different opinions (understandings) about the things you've posted.
Easy everyone on our new member. Just a little of our vast wisdom at a time, please. :Whistle:
End times or not this thread is eternal
I am curious as to what information you used to make the calculations that you have in regards to time
and................ :welcome: :newb:
Blessings to you
Doug
Hi UC
You said: "If I am correct, we are currently in the last days, but that means the last age."
Just wanted to give you something to consider. Paul said in Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Peace
:cloud9: My :2c: Since a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, we've been in the "last days" (of light AND darkness) for the last 2 thousand years. Next is the day of no part darkness, the 7th day. Blessings....
Quote from: Livelystone on January 27, 2010, 11:51:00 AM
I am curious as to what information you used to make the calculations that you have in regards to time
and................ :welcome: :newb:
Blessings to you
Doug
I had gotten this information from the internet regaurding the archaeological finding of the first humans in Africa. I searched "How long have humans been on earth", and recalled that the first religious monument the venus of Willendorf from about 24000 bc
to say this nicely to a new member, the last days, end times, end of the world, and ALL like statements in the bible refer "to ME" as to ME and the end of all things of "this earth" before I became aware that I was God's and thought that I was self... some say born again, I choose not this saying.
So UC, if you go back to your post and change your thinking 'just for the fun of it' , try this on your self, every statement in the verses, think of it as this earth Man you are and what change took place IN you when YOU believed.... in the man Jesus, then The Anointed of The Father [Christ] and what you became when you became IN Christ....
Does it change you thinking???
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 27, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
to say this nicely to a new member, the last days, end times, end of the world, and ALL like statements in the bible refer "to ME" as to ME and the end of all things of "this earth" before I became aware that I was God's and thought that I was self... some say born again, I choose not this saying.
So UC, if you go back to your post and change your thinking 'just for the fun of it' , try this on your self, every statement in the verses, think of it as this earth Man you are and what change took place IN you when YOU believed.... in the man Jesus, then The Anointed of The Father [Christ] and what you became when you became IN Christ....
Does it change you thinking???
Lee Damboise II
Thats a good point. I was pretty much taught from Catholicism not to worry about the end times.
"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." This is my favorite response for people who try to guess when the apocalypse will occur.
The apocalypse comes at the end of time, upon death.
"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
Exodus 27:19
All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof, and all the pins thereof, and all the pins of the court, shall be of brass.
"Brasses have good electrical and thermal conductivities and are markedly superior in this respect to ferrous alloys, nickel-based alloys and titanium.
Their relatively high conductivity, combined with corrosion resistance, makes them an ideal choice for the manufacture of electrical equipment, both domestic and industrial. "
so·le·noid (sō'lə-noid')
A current-carrying coil of wire that acts like a magnet when a current passes through it.
An assembly used as a switch, consisting of a coil and a metal core free to slide along the coil axis under the influence of the magnetic field.
44Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
--Luke 8
:cloud9: Ah.....you've no doubt heard the ark of the covenant was thought to also act as a sort of "battery"? So with the current in the underpinings all round.....hmmm......Blessings...
Quote from: Molly on January 30, 2010, 05:59:25 PM
Exodus 27:19
All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof, and all the pins thereof, and all the pins of the court, shall be of brass.
"Brasses have good electrical and thermal conductivities and are markedly superior in this respect to ferrous alloys, nickel-based alloys and titanium.
Their relatively high conductivity, combined with corrosion resistance, makes them an ideal choice for the manufacture of electrical equipment, both domestic and industrial. "
so·le·noid (sō'lə-noid')
A current-carrying coil of wire that acts like a magnet when a current passes through it.
An assembly used as a switch, consisting of a coil and a metal core free to slide along the coil axis under the influence of the magnetic field.
44Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
--Luke 8
...from an electrical engineer of integrated systems :thumbsup:
Well in that case here is another one to "brighten" up your day with.
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven
Blessings
Doug
46And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
[Somebody] "hath touched" [me]
G680
ἅπτομαι
haptomai
hap'-tom-ahee
Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to, that is, to touch (in many implied relations): - touch.
G681
ἅπτω
haptō
hap'-to
A primary verb; properly to fasten to, that is, (specifically) to set on fire: - kindle, light.
"virtue" [hath gone out of me]
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
3Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
--Psalm 104
30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
31The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.
32He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.
33I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
34My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD.
35Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
--Psalm 104
Psa 91:1-9
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!" For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.
You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day; Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon. A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you. You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked.
For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place.
Psa 46:1-11 For the choir director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah, set to Alamoth. A Song.
God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea; Though its waters roar and foam, Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride. Selah.
There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, The holy dwelling places of the Most High. God is in the midst of her, she will not be moved; God will help her when morning dawns. The nations made an uproar, the kingdoms tottered; He raised His voice, the earth melted. The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah.
Come, behold the works of the LORD, Who has wrought desolations in the earth. He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth :bgdance:; He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two; :dsunny: He burns the chariots with fire. :egyptdance:
"Cease striving and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah.
Act 1:4-8
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Quote from: Livelystone on January 31, 2010, 05:49:02 AM
Well in that case here is another one to "brighten" up your day with.
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven
The production and emission of light by a living organism; the result of a chemical reaction during which chemical energy is converted to light energy. All cells produce some form of bioluminescence (living light) within the electromagnetic spectrum, but most are not visible or noticeable to the naked eye. Every organism's
bios lumen is unique in wavelength, duration, timing and regularity of flashes.
Now,
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [
heylel; the morning star]
, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground ...as in man, the first Adam?
Just a thought, but is not Jesus, the "day" star, the consuming fire; the second Adam (man) who overcame his human nature?
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the "day" (star)
shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ... If any man's work (exerting effort directed to produce or accomplish something for themselves)
shall be burned [
katakaio; to
burn down to the ground, to consume wholly, burn up, utterly – from the intensity of living light],
he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
This is not a complex thing to understand, it's about dissociating from the sinful passions within our own hearts; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. As the Adversary, like lightening falls from power.
The surrendering of all limiting beliefs, must give way to the Spirit of Truth. For the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, that shines brighter and brighter, until the full day. It leads to life above to the wise, departing from the grave; beneath.
"Turn on the light; the darkness will flee."peacemaker
:cloud9: AMEN PM :thumbsup:
AMEN PM
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
--Acts 1
[ye shall receive] "power"
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power (dunamis) from on high
.--Luke 24:49
"Unlimited strength is at our disposal. Through the enabling of the Holy Spirit, the believer can serve valiantly, endure patiently, suffer triumphantly, and, if need be, die gloriously."
--Wm MacDonald
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power (dunamis) toward us who believe
23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
--Eph 1
Oh Yeah! :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Amen, dunamis, where we get our word for dynamite. :thumbsup:
Dynamize ...
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/927/927161h6cxhl134w.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)... energized!
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power (dunamis) toward us who believe...
...23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
--Eph 1
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
--Daniel 12
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
--Heb 11
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
"perfect"
G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
--Heb 2
Col 2:18-19 let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, and not holding the head, from which all the body--through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together--may increase with the increase of God.(YLT)(grow according to God's design NEB)
Rom 12:1-5 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
The acceptable sacrifice is consumed with fire from heaven. Elijah proved what is the good and acceptable and perfect(mature, finished complete) will of God before the priests of Baal by fire, as did the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost. If the sacrifice is not consumed, it is because the offering is unacceptable(most likely mixture, like arrogance, legalism, self-interest, self-glory, control- carnality) because it is the Fathers good pleasure to give us the kingdom, and He earnestly desires the spirit He has made to dwell in us.
The sacrifices of God are a broken and a contrite heart.
Luk 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Act 4:29-35 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
They proved the good and acceptable and perfect(mature, complete, finished) will of God in the power of the Holy Spirit and fire
Rev 8:4-5 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
Rev 4:4-5 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
Psa 132:8-9 Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. Let Your priests be clothed with righteousness, And let Your godly ones sing for joy.
Col 3:1-4 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Joe 2:12-17 "Yet even now," declares the LORD, "Return to Me with all your heart, And with fasting, weeping and mourning; And rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness And relenting of evil. Who knows whether He will not turn and relent And leave a blessing behind Him, Even a grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?
Blow a trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly, Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and the nursing infants. Let the bridegroom come out of his room And the bride out of her bridal chamber. Let the priests, the LORD'S ministers, Weep between the porch and the altar, And let them say, "Spare Your people, O LORD, And do not make Your inheritance a reproach, A byword among the nations. Why should they among the peoples say, 'Where is their God?'"
Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy 10:9
Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
11Strengthened with all might [dunamis], according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
--Col 1
Deuteronomy 26:18
And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
--1Peter
Rev 5:5-13 and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Glooory!
"And I perceived on the right hand of Him Who is sitting on the throne a scroll, written in front and on the back, and sealed up with seven seals." (Rv 5:1, CLT)
The things He has written within, upon our hearts and minds, that written upon us, known and read of all men, He takes and reads it out loud, bringing forth the new creation.
"And the twenty-four elders who are sitting on their thrones before God fall on their faces and worship God, saying, 'We are thanking Thee, Lord God Almighty, Who art and Who wast, for Thou hast taken Thy great power and dost reign. . .'" (Rv 11:16-17, CLT)
It's often said the sweating blood is a disease named: hematidrosis
But there is another possibility.
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/66796main_overcash1_med.jpg)
The red light reflected on His sweat and it looked red as blood.
This happens if the moon is eclipsed (at the darkest hour)
Just a thought
Click here for the excat times of the 27th October Blood Moon in the USA (http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/13oct_lunar%20eclipse.html)
:cloud9: There's another possibility......I asked Him once to give me something for a particular pastor before I went to give him a word I knew he wouldn't like. What He gave me was the reason why He sweat blood. Sweat was an offense in the sanctuary and He WAS/IS the sanctuary. It was a sign for the Jews reading the account after the fact. Blessings...
That doesn't make any sense to me...
About sweat in the sanctuary I simply don't know.
I assume Jesus did sweat quite often during His life. Israel is a hot country.
So all those times it was an offence?
And what is the reason this offence is mentioned?
:dontknow:
:cloud9: That's the reason the priests couldn't mix wool with linen; wool causes one to sweat which speaks of works. The HG does the works in the sanctuary. Blessings...
Moses had to climb the mountain, but Joshua stayed in the Tabernacle.
I still don't understand.
If it was not allowed:
a] Why did Jesus sweat?
b] Why was it mentioned?
:cloud9: It was mentioned because it was an overt clue to the Jews. A gentile wouldn't catch that. No one I have ever heard in Christiandom has ever preached on this. That was what I had asked for, something the pastor had never heard before so he would KNOW I was sent by the Lord with the message to repent or judgment would follow. I knew he wouldn't want to receive from a woman, and I was trying to spare both of us the agony of what would follow his rejection of the word.
So: sweat was not allowed in the sanctuary, it was an offense, so the law was kept perfectly by the fact He sweat blood, because Christ IS the sanctuary. God was further pointing out that the tabernacle veil that was rent was in a man, a man they crucified. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 21, 2010, 11:17:02 PM
:cloud9: There's another possibility......I asked Him once to give me something for a particular pastor before I went to give him a word I knew he wouldn't like. What He gave me was the reason why He sweat blood. Sweat was an offense in the sanctuary and He WAS/IS the sanctuary. It was a sign for the Jews reading the account after the fact. Blessings...
Do you mean Jesus never sweat as in water? But instead sweated blood? Or was this a one time sign that only happened in the garden?
"A gentile wouldn't catch that."
God is great!
Quote from: thinktank on October 22, 2010, 02:09:10 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 21, 2010, 11:17:02 PM
:cloud9: There's another possibility......I asked Him once to give me something for a particular pastor before I went to give him a word I knew he wouldn't like. What He gave me was the reason why He sweat blood. Sweat was an offense in the sanctuary and He WAS/IS the sanctuary. It was a sign for the Jews reading the account after the fact. Blessings...
Do you mean Jesus never sweat as in water? But instead sweated blood? Or was this a one time sign that only happened in the garden?
:cloud9: I tend to think it was probably a sign, and therefore a one time event, but if you consider He was acting as a priest in intercession, and a High Priest getting ready to go before the Father by what He was doing in the garden, then as I said, this is why this sign came about, because sweat was an offense and the HG was doing the "works" in deep intercession. Blessings....
There is a rare condition under extreme stress where the capillaries burst and can mix with sweat so a person literally sweats blood. Death usually follows soon thereafter. Remember how the angel came to strengthen Him? (cp., Lk 2243) He might have died before making it to the cross except for that help.
I like the insight into there not being sweat on the priest and the blood moon too.
____________________________________________________
A point to make about Jesus' fervency in prayer...
There He was: in a garden in the moonlight. What beautiful rest is implied by this scene, this place of intimacy with God. But, it is bigger on the inside. Those things invisible, those things within, these are the weighty things. Through these is what slays or makes alive. Unless we walk on with the Holy Spirit into maturity, ascending into other realms, we are in danger of missing out on all the action in these late hours. "Do not judge by outward appearances, but judge righteous judgment." Without this inward way, we can also miss recognizing the true nature of those with whom we have to do. The deceived see the shell and falsely attribute evil to its contents.
"Let him that is afflicted pray." This is the primary call for those who would have their priorities realigned. Unless we appreciate something of the relative value of things we cannot enter in with God. When we arrive in the Paradise of God, it is to travail for the liberation of that part of all creation for which we are responsible.
Our words, being His Word, will never fall to the ground; He watches over them.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 23, 2010, 09:38:28 AMthe blood moon too.
There is a prophesy regarding Jesus and a blood moon. But I can't find it right now.
:cloud9: It's about the moon turning to blood.....
Finally! The lesser light bathed in understanding.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 06:28:57 PM
:cloud9: It's about the moon turning to blood.....
Well... that's what I'm saying all the time. A blood moon is a moon turning blood red. It only happens at full moon. A rare lunar eclipse.
YLTActs 220 the sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the day of the Lord--the great and illustrious;
The great day of the Lord can be read as the second coming after the rapture. Or something similar.
Resurrection day was also a great day imo.
So blood moon in the garden and darkness during crucifixion.
And when red light shines on sweat it looks.... red.
A lunar eclipse at night is the darkest hour.
:cloud9: There is no rapture as it's being taught, and for another slant on this moon topic......my :2c:.....the moon is representative of the law, as a lesser glory, which is why all the feasts were tied to the progression and revealing of the moon.
The law is as the bones that the body which is Spirit, comes out of and clothes with His glory, ie. corruption being swallowed up of incorruption. Blood in the natural is made in the marrow of the bones. That is why God told Satan he could not touch Job's bone, ie. because the life of Christ was in the bone, and Satan cannot touch Him unless the Father allows it.
The blood (Spirit of Christ) that was hidden in the bones that the law is, CAME OUT and was seen of all men in the person of Jesus the Christ. He kept the law perfectly in the Spirit, though He appeared to break it. This is why He (speaking as the Spirit) said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Jesus said He only spoke what He heard His Father speak, the Father is a SPIRIT, and all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, ie. the Son is a Spirit, encased in flesh that He glorified to show us the way back to the Father is the death, burial and resurrection. The gospel IS, the death, burial and resurrection of CHRIST.
We have known the death (outer court-lowered into the bondage of corruption), the burial (inner court-hid IN Christ), and are awaiting the resurrection (Holy of Holies-Son returns to the Father-hello, sons of God!). Blessings.....
The Law is covered by the Blood of Sacrifice.
:HeartThrob: Hi, my friend.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 07:02:46 PM
— hello, sons of God!
lol, I was referring to your quote.
:cloud9: Yeah, I got that.....lol
Hello my Beloved brother!
I pray all is well my friend Beloved Servant.
Micah,
Don't give up.
Really giving up is not really possible, yet my flesh tells me why not...to which my Spirit answers JESUS! Thankls
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 07:02:46 PM
:cloud9: There is no rapture as it's being taught, and for another slant on this moon topic......my :2c:.....the moon is representative of the law, as a lesser glory, which is why all the feasts were tied to the progression and revealing of the moon.
The law is as the bones that the body which is Spirit, comes out of and clothes with His glory, ie. corruption being swallowed up of incorruption. Blood in the natural is made in the marrow of the bones. That is why God told Satan he could not touch Job's bone, ie. because the life of Christ was in the bone, and Satan cannot touch Him unless the Father allows it.
The blood (Spirit of Christ) that was hidden in the bones that the law is, CAME OUT and was seen of all men in the person of Jesus the Christ. He kept the law perfectly in the Spirit, though He appeared to break it. This is why He (speaking as the Spirit) said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Jesus said He only spoke what He heard His Father speak, the Father is a SPIRIT, and all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, ie. the Son is a Spirit, encased in flesh that He glorified to show us the way back to the Father is the death, burial and resurrection. The gospel IS, the death, burial and resurrection of CHRIST.
We have known the death (outer court-lowered into the bondage of corruption), the burial (inner court-hid IN Christ), and are awaiting the resurrection (Holy of Holies-Son returns to the Father-hello, sons of God!). Blessings.....
What about the prophecy where God says that not one bone of his shall be broken. Is there any significance to this? I have faith and read it as that God protects, even the dead bones of his servants, so don't worry if ones body is destroyed.
But is there anything else you would like to add? since your talking about bones.
:cloud9: Yes, that ties in. Not a bone of His was broken to mirror the fact He kept the law perfectly. And for more on bones.....the bones that had life in them when the boy was thrown on them, is because they had no FLESH on them, mirroring the spiritual state of the person's bones. I also shared some more on bones in the "Experiencing the Tabernacle" thread recently.
And the bones that Elijah prophesied to......to truly prophesy is to speak what God gives you to speak about any situation. It's the same Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters in Genesis 1, when released. The "root" of prophesy is to call those things that are not as though they were, and this is where walking in His authority comes in at.
I received the revelation that those bones were of the body of Christ that is alive NOW, the many membered body upon the face of the earth, BUT it is the one that has allowed Him to circumcize them of all flesh, and made them dry bones, because they were willing to lay their anointings, giftings and callings at His feet.
THEY are the ones that having died with Him, they shall be raised with Him, in the resurrection that takes place while still in the body. We were one with Him from the foundation of the earth (Alpha) and we shall be one with Him again totality while still in shoe leather (Omega). My :2c: Blessings....
Bones can only move by the power of the flesh in the natural. Without the flesh, God must move them by giving His power and grace to the bones to move.
Perfect alignment of wills in harmony. :boyheart:
I do not see the connection.
Those bones started rattling without flesh. And it was "in the natural."
Muscles move bones, without muscles (flesh - our own strength) we cannot move our own bones.
Quote from: Lefein on October 24, 2010, 09:44:13 PM
Bones can only move by the power of the flesh in the natural. Without the flesh, God must move them by giving His power and grace to the bones to move.
Perfect alignment of wills in harmony. :boyheart:
God's Spirit moved those fleshless bones; in the natural.
There was no other will.
You missed my point. Nevermind.
And the bones that Elijah prophesied to......to truly prophesy is to speak what God gives you to speak about any situation. It's the same Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters in Genesis 1, when released. The "root" of prophesy is to call those things that are not as though they were, and this is where walking in His authority comes in at.
I received the revelation that those bones were of the body of Christ that is alive NOW, the many membered body upon the face of the earth, BUT it is the one that has allowed Him to circumcize them of all flesh, and made them dry bones, because they were willing to lay their anointings, giftings and callings at His feet.
I'm not denying what you said, maybe that scripture has a two fold purpose. One what you said and the other a literal resurection of the dead people of Israel. The people spoken of in Hebrews who did not recevie the promise and other Israelites who will be raised from the dead in a future age and I think the body of christ might be kings and queens over them, but I'm not sure if it we will be rulers over the Isrealites or the others, who are raised at some later date. Just one reason why I think we will be rulers, is the parable of christ when he said the 'well done faithfull servant you will be in charge over 5 cities'.
When it comes to the saving of all people im not so sure as most here, but I do believe that all Israelites will be saved as Paul says it plainly that all Israel will be saved and this vision of the bones shows them being raised from the dead from the house of Israel.
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know." Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'" So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'" So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
(Eze 37:1-14)
IMO there are several time transcendant truths that apply to all of the elect of God through history in Ezekiel's vision. The prophesy was to Israel at the time and it is to everyone throughout time who can enter His rest, "Today, if you hear His voice". The dry bones were scattered on the surface, they were not buried. This means to me the vision is to we who live now in time, generation by generation. "Awake O Sleeper and RISE FROM THE DEAD, and the light of Christ will shine on you." The testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy and the dry bones scattered on the ground in the valley are similar to the earth being without form and void and darkness covering the face of the deep as the Spirit hovers over the face of the waters. The body is like that chaos as yet unformed. We are like that army, all the pieces are here but there is no connection, covenant, union, harmony. We are not fitly joined together or growing according to God's design "through that which the joints and ligaments supply"(Col. 2). We need to HEAR HIS VOICE. Let the ones who have ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. "Prophecy!".... "Let there be Light". Dry ground appears, creation begins, the form of Christ coming forth in the transformation of carnal men. "Light shall shine out of darkness to reveal the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ". What once had no visible function or form begins to "ARISE AND WALK". The manchild forms in the womb of the Bride, but he has not yet breached and taken breath. The quickened and effectual word of God, that sharp two edged sword of the Spirit is bringing forth an army. "apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evengelists....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God." Once we stand together, the breath will enter. And they were all gathered together in one place as one soul ministering unto the Lord and and their was a sound as of a rushing mighty wind..... You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me."
"No one when lighting a Lamp sets it under a bushel basket but rather sets it up on a lampstand so that it gives light into all who are in the house."
"I will live among them and walk among them and I will be their God and they shall be my people...... and all the nations will know that I am God."