End times?

[Molly]

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

Is that what he says?

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.

And, it did, didn't it?  Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man.  Their house left desolate.

Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].

[Doug]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:

Cool.

People who thought the end was near are often very zealous. Some even set dates, but there have been many times when such were disappointed.

This morning I listened to Haydn's Symphony No. 90. The final movement is famous for its false ending. Wikipedia says:

The finale contains one of Haydn's more famous jokes. Soon after the recapitulation starts, the music arrives at a rousing and unexpected "ending" in C major followed by four measures of silence which leads the audience to believe the symphony may have actually finished. Instead, the first theme quietly resumes in the remote key of D-flat major.

The audience applauds, thinking it is the end, but it's not over yet. This happens twice! Haydn must have had a good chuckle. It reminded me of the people who think "the end" was in the first century. Of course, the joke is on them! Ha ha!

Doug

[Cardinal]

This is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.

Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.


G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

:cloud9: Amen.....generation also has a meaning of revolution(s), as in the spiral of a whirlwind or the "ladder" of DNA or the ladder with angels on it. So as He gives us more, we take another step (the steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord), and are re-GENERATED back into being one with Christ from which we DESCENDED, as we were lowered into the bondage of corruption. Blessings....

[jabcat]

I like this Card.  Reminds of me of J.Preston Eby's Law of Circularity and our spirits returning to God from whence they came.  Exciting things.

[Zeek]

This is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.

Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.


G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

:cloud9: Amen.....generation also has a meaning of revolution(s), as in the spiral of a whirlwind or the "ladder" of DNA or the ladder with angels on it. So as He gives us more, we take another step (the steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord), and are re-GENERATED back into being one with Christ from which we DESCENDED, as we were lowered into the bondage of corruption. Blessings....

can u show me how generation has a meaning of revolution??

thanks

[Zeek]

Ok, I found this:

H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



but that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??

ie: like the one used in Matt 24


G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.



thanks

[Molly]

but that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??

That's a Hebrew word you found.  See the H?  H is for Hebrew.  


H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


There's something mystical going on here--for sure.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I was just getting ready to add that, but you beat me to it.  :thumbsup:

Root words are basically the consonants in a combination that gives the principle connecting thought of God that connects different words. If you remember that He spoke this all into being, it's the letters that are as His breath. It's been said by the Jewish sages that everything was created out of those letters, and I believe it.

In this case 1754 also means a circle, ball or pile, turn, round about, just as the one you mentioned 1752 means to gyrate (or move in a circle), ie. to remain or dwell. So you can see why then that the word for generation would mean a REVOLUTION of time.

God teaches us line upon line, but also PRECEPT upon precept or principle upon principle. The principle here is that a generation moves in a circular fashion as far as God's principles are concerned.

Another such example is: we can see for instance that the word for eye also means, color and a fountain, because they are all something round with color.

You can apply this "precept rule" to any word in there that is not a root word, and glean from it. This is why when I want to deep study I use a Strong's book and not the net version, because it's easier to see the connections. And you will notice after a time, that the words they have used in the meanings, are "mirrored" in the NT, and the principle thought is also repeated again and again all thru the book. Blessings...

[Molly]

gyroscope definition
gyro·scope (jī′rō skōp′, -rə-)

noun

a wheel mounted in a set of rings so that its axis of rotation is free to turn in any direction: when the wheel is spun rapidly, it will keep the original direction of its rotation axis no matter which way the ring is turned: gyroscopes are used in gyrocompasses and to keep moving ships, airplanes, etc. level
Etymology: gyro- + -scope

[Barry DuPont]

That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.  

But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.

...

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  
Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  
Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before?  

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

That is a very good question Doug. But your answer is again IMHO out of context.
What you and I believe Cardinal is missing in this is that this is the age of eschatology.

The new age which we are in has no eschatology. It is the new age.
We cannot have their salvation from the law [that was still valid].
We can have our salvation which is between our ears. Confusing the two tends to negate the ongoing work of God in his creation as pertains to God's will being done on earth. Like saying, "Sorry Lord but you cannot put an end to the law historically because it's still in my head." 
Salvation has nothing to do with getting to heaven. This fact alone has a lot to do with our misunderstanding IMO.

And I mean no offence with this just trying to explain my stance.

The point of eschatology is a filling up in several different directions.
One is the suffering of the saints and the other is the suffering of those judged by the law in the consummation of the law.
My point in Matthew 23 is similar to this:
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:  
Col 1:25   Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;  
Col 1:26   [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  

This is the continued filling up of sufferings by the followers of Christ to complete the filling up and so then consummation of eschatology.
Same principle in Matthew 23, unless of course one wishes to try and ignore that there was a destruction of Jerusalem as promise in this chapter. I mean to say that the Cross of Christ did not take it away did it? It did happen as foretold did it not? So then the measure was filled and fulfilled.
They filled up the measure of what was being done from Adam. And so:

Mat 12:36   But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.  
Mat 12:37   For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
{by the law}
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.  
Mat 12:39   But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:  
Mat 12:40   For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.  
Mat 12:41   The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.  
Mat 12:42   The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.  

So then the back history is brought back up upon that generation! This the very point again in Hebrews chapter 11. They received a good report by faith. They received not the promise. They are perfected not apart from you!

The whole of the history of eschatology is brought back to bear in the consummation of that age.
We do not have this nor can we have this.

Now in the very end the law is done away and all are saved. What is destroyed with unquenchable fire is the person of self sufficiency that stood in the precedence of valid types and figures. The person of God's creation however came through the fire. The person of God's definition.

This means a lot to us, but it does not mean a repeat in history. For the law and the prophets are fulfilled historically.
We are not the bride we are the children of the bride.

Blessings Barry

[Barry DuPont]

The temple was type. It was a figure. It was also the outward reflection of their ego.
But there was a time of it being a figure and a valid one. That time is past.
We don't look for another throwing down of that temple. But we do relate to the lessons learned. But not at the expense of fulfillment. Not at the cost of living in the past.
No we learn and move forward seeing behind the fulfillment of all things written.
Thank God judgment is behind us.  

Act 6:12   And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon [him], and caught him, and brought [him] to the council,  
Act 6:13   And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:  
Act 6:14   For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.  

Act 7:47   But Solomon built him an house.  
Act 7:48   Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,  
Act 7:49   Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?  
Act 7:50   Hath not my hand made all these things?  

Act 17:24   God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 21:27   And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,  
Act 21:28   Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all [men] every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.  
Act 21:29   (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)  
Act 21:30   And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.  


2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, {not the physical body the old covenant temple} we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  

Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;  
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,  
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.  
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, {not of this old covenant creation}

Blessings Barry

PS I don't buy into everything that is written here but you might find the link interesting in this regards.
http://www.templesecrets.info/firstsec.html

[Zeek]

but that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??

That's a Hebrew word you found.  See the H?  H is for Hebrew.  


H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


There's something mystical going on here--for sure.

cool, so how does this relate to the greek word

G1074 which is used in Matthew 24.  Same thing?  just one Hebrew and one greek??

[Zeek]

Barry,

thank u so much for your method of presentation and the scriptures you present.  The bible makes so much sense to me when you look at it in first century fulfillment.  Verses that I used to have a hard time figuring out, now make sense.  

And I really appreciate your message of ongoing "revealing", ie: unity revealed; and I definitely can now through this view, see how so many can NOW apply the message inwardly but differently than another believer.  To me the first century fulfillment view also explains to me why so many believers can have so many different views on how this NOW occurs.  I used to get so frustrated when one would say "God told me this", and another would say "God told me this, and it was totally different.  To me, even different religions/beliefs (ie some of the new age stuff, and old stuff like yoga, hinduism etc) all are so similar.....a revealing of LOVE (a death of the old mindset, and a resurrection of peace, joy and LOVE)

thanks again.    

It seems the unity being revealed "between the ears" is very personal.  

[Barry DuPont]

Barry,

thank u so much for your method of presentation and the scriptures you present.  The bible makes so much sense to me when you look at it in first century fulfillment.  Verses that I used to have a hard time figuring out, now make sense. 

And I really appreciate your message of ongoing "revealing", ie: unity revealed; and I definitely can now through this view, see how so many can NOW apply the message inwardly but differently than another believer.  To me the first century fulfillment view also explains to me why so many believers can have so many different views on how this NOW occurs.  I used to get so frustrated when one would say "God told me this", and another would say "God told me this, and it was totally different.  To me, even different religions/beliefs (ie some of the new age stuff, and old stuff like yoga, hinduism etc) all are so similar.....a revealing of LOVE (a death of the old mindset, and a resurrection of peace, joy and LOVE)

thanks again.   

It seems the unity being revealed "between the ears" is very personal. 

It can be, and intuitive learning can be very accurate. It's the presumptions and attachments to it that cause some misunderstandings.

It does have some limits however IMO.

Like the example of Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I might read that and it could trigger something very deep inside me that says, "Barry you are having some ego-driven issues that are a thorn in your fleshly mind" Or something of that nature.
However the "context" is not that at all. But the foundation of what was triggered may itself have some real promise. The words themselves may have triggered a very valid point. And having an ego is not the actual problem either. Neither is being in physical form.

The problem is how I might then think I know what it is saying contextually. Then try to adapt it to other scriptures reading that into them and so on and so on. All the while intuitively knowing that a truth was on some level had been touched.
My presumption filled in the blanks added more associations and connections and told me far far far more that what the intuition actually in and of itself had indicated.

All the while nonetheless I had learned something anyway about "me" and about growth and maturity.

Hope this made sense.
Blessings Barry

[Doug]

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

Is that what he says?

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.

And, it did, didn't it?  Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man.  Their house left desolate.

Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].

The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.

When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.

Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!

How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.

Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.

Doug

[Doug]

The temple was type. It was a figure. It was also the outward reflection of their ego.
But there was a time of it being a figure and a valid one. That time is past.

Is it? I don't think so. In Ephes. 2:20, Paul described the church of God as a holy temple. The Apostles and OT prophets, he said, are its foundation.

In 1 Cor. 10:11, Paul says the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness, under Moses, was intended for our examples, and for our learning, "upon whom the ends of the world are come." The prophecy of Rev. 12 pictures the church as a woman who flees to the wilderness, twice, in vs. 6, and in vs. 14.

The identification of the church with the temple of God is a theme based on several prophecies of the OT. One example is Isaiah 2:2, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

The Lord's house was the temple on Mount Zion. The "mountain" is Zion. This mountain, Isaiah said, is to be exalted. And it is to become very high, higher than all the mountains of the earth.

In the NT, Zion is identified with "heavenly Jerusalem," and "the city of the living God," and "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven," Heb. 12:22-23.

Zion, the mountain of the Lord's house, is located in heaven in the NT. In the holy city described in Rev. 21, John saw no temple, but he said "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Jesus referred to himself as the temple of God, during his ministry on earth, and in John's description of the New Jerusalem, Jesus is called the temple of the holy city which comes down to earth, and thus the figure of a "temple" remains valid, because Jesus is the "temple" of the holy city, the bride.

And in the letters to the churches Jesus said:

Rev. 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

This is the hope of the saints, to be part of the holy city, the new Jerusalem, which is the "bride" of Christ. And to be a "pillar" is to be an essential part of it!

We don't look for another throwing down of that temple. But we do relate to the lessons learned. But not at the expense of fulfillment. Not at the cost of living in the past.
No we learn and move forward seeing behind the fulfillment of all things written.
Thank God judgment is behind us.  

Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]

Doug

[WhiteWings]

but that is a different greek "number", can different strong's numbers be substituted for the one used in scripture??

That's a Hebrew word you found.  See the H?  H is for Hebrew.  


H1755
דּר    דּור
dôr  dôr
dore, dore
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.



H1752
דּוּר
dûr
dure
A primitive root; properly to gyrate (or move in a circle), that is, to remain: - dwell.


There's something mystical going on here--for sure.

Earth gyrates.
The English word year comes from a Hebrew words that (also) means repeating cycle
For example when the ages of people are mentioned "we" translate it as year.
But strickly speaking it also could be a day-cycle, moon-cycle. Actually a year is a sun-cycle. Ofcourse there are many other cycle length in the universe.

[Doug]

Hey Doug,
If the apostles changed their mind about when these things were going to happen then why is this not evidenced in the writting of Jude.  
I what mean is that what Peter said would happen was clearly happening when Jude wrote and warned them at that time that what Jesus and the other said would happen was then happening.
Now we know that Peter and Jude are talking about the very same things. At least that seems very evident.

The question I would ask then is why look to happenings in the church today as the fulfillment of things that were clearly happening back then when they said they would be happening.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand.
I'm certainly willing to drop the subject if it's an inconvenience to anyone.  
Here's the text from Jude writting about the same thing that Peter did in 2 Peter 2.

Jud 1:4   For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.  


Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  
Jud 1:13   Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.  

Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.  
Jud 1:17   But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;  
Jud 1:18   How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Is Jude not indicated to them in this time what is then happening? Is this not the "last time"?


Blessings Barry

Jude exhorts us to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." [vs. 2]

This is the faith which was delivered to us by Jesus and his Apostles, who taught that Christ had risen from the dead, and reigns over all from the throne of God in heaven. [Acts 2:36; Eph. 1:21] By faith in Christ, Gentiles can now share in the promises of God given to Abraham and to Israel. The scope of the gospel was explained in the teachings of Paul, who believed "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." [Acts 24:14]

This is what we should contend for. The prophecies foretold an apostasy, a great departing from the true gospel. [Dan. 8:24-25; 11:45] This began in the days of the Apostles. That is why Jude already in the first century says we need to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered." And John mentions that many antichrists were already active: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18]

The "last time" is characterized by antichrist having dominion over the saints, as shown in Daniel 7:25, which said of the little horn, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and so represents a human point of view, as opposed to a divine one. It is a human point of view that the saints need to overcome, to discover the true "faith which was once delivered unto the saints" which has been corrupted because of the false teachings of men.

Daniel said the time allotted to antichrist is "a time and times and the dividing of time" and this is the very same period of time that is mentioned in Rev. 12:14 which describes the church under the figure of a woman, who flees to the wilderness, for the second time in the chapter.
   
In the second escape to the wilderness the woman is given two wings of an eagle, which are symbolic of the gift of prophecy. An eagle soars at a great height, with powerful wings, and views the earth from above, and so pictures a divine point of view, which contrasts with the "eyes like the eyes of a man," of the little horn, which represents the antichrist. Thus the "wings of eagles" are symbolic of prophecy.

The wilderness represents a place where the church is nourished by God, and the time for which she remains there is the period of "a time, times and a half," or half of a prophetic week, and it is the last half week of the 70th week in Daniel 9:24-27. This period is referred to as "the last time" by John in the scripture quoted above. It extends for the entire period of the church, from the crucifixion, to the end of the age, and includes the present time. There is no prophetic age after the "last time."

John referred to the antichrist as a spirit:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Being a spirit, the antichrist did not go away at the end of the first century, but remains to this day, in the temple of God, which is the church. [2 Thes. 2:4] According to Rev. 12:9, the dragon deceives the whole world. The work of the spirit of God reveals the errors of antichrist, and leads believers to "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." [John 16:13]

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

Is that what he says?

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.

And, it did, didn't it?  Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man.  Their house left desolate.

Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].

The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.

When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.

Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!

How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.

Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.

Doug

How could a Holy and Just God do this:

1Pe 4:17 [Darby] For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God [is come]; but if first from us, what [shall be] the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?  
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and [the] sinner appear?  
Had to use Darby there because it is often misleading otherwise. The text is contextually saying:
"If the righteous is saved through sufferings {the difficulty is the sufferings in context and is not be be understood as scarcely saved} then you know that the sufferings of those who do not obey will be even greater.

I really don't think we are going to be able to ignore the "wrath to come" that was predicted. The destruction of Jerusalem had everything to do with judgment.
Now what exactly is fair?
Is this fair?
Rom 11:32   For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
When we get caught up in what we think is fair for God to do we run the risk of losing sight of the plan.

What came upon the Jews of that time is the whole of the history of eschatology. If it had nothing to do with it then why did Jesus call it the sentence of the valley of himmon?

The judgment was against the conscience under law. They bore the same conscience of guilt as all there previous murderers who did slay the righteous. Their conscience was judged when they knew that what the "saints" had been saying was then happening and their wasn't a thing at the point that they could do about it. This in relationship to the fact that it is the consummation of the history of eschatology. Nor more after this would man's conscience be judged by types and figures before God.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.  
Rom 2:2   But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.  
Rom 2:3   And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?  
Rom 2:4   Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?  
Rom 2:5   But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The judgment is on their conscience. The conscience of the old covenant man in the precedence of types and figures. This ends the judgment of God against the conscience of the self defined man of the old covenant that had precedence within types and figures.

Gal 2:18   For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.  
Gal 2:19   For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.  
Gal 2:20   I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.  
Gal 2:21   I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If Paul had then made himself a transgressor he would have been judged in conscience at the consummation of the history of eschatology in AD 70.

2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
{shipwreck because they taught righteousness through the law}

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Mat 3:6   And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.  
Mat 3:7   But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  
Mat 3:8   Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:  
Mat 3:9   And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.  
Mat 3:10   And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.  
Mat 3:11   I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:  
Mat 3:12   Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.  

This was against the "conscience" under the law. It is also the consummation of the history of eschatology. Therefore in their conscience they bore the whole history back to Adam.
Including the murder of Cain. Whose blood was still speaking.
Including the queen of the south who when to see Solomon because of his wisdom, while they did not hear to Christ.

That's the point.
It's not some arbitrary "punishment" as one might imo incorrectly perceive it as.
Blessings Barry

[Doug]

That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.  

But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.

...

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  
Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  
Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before?  

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

That is a very good question Doug. But your answer is again IMHO out of context.

No, my answer was not "out of context." Abel was killed by his brother Cain. According to the history in Genesis, the line of Cain ended in the flood. The Jews descend from Abraham, who descended from Noah, who was of the line of Seth, not Cain. So Jews were not even distantly related to the person directly responsible for the death of Abel. Of course, Jesus knew that. 
   
Why would God hold Jews of the first century, contemporaries of Jesus, responsible for the murder of Abel? Why take vengeance upon them, for the murder of Abel?
   
Jesus said "All these things shall come upon this generation." [Mat. 23:36] It could mean anyone, of any race, living at that time, not necessarily those Jews who Jesus was speaking to. The blood of Abel, and the guilt of Cain, was required of Jesus, because he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." [Rev. 13:8] Jesus represents that generation, and since he was raised from the grave, and remains alive, his generation has not pased away!

What you and I believe Cardinal is missing in this is that this is the age of eschatology.

The new age which we are in has no eschatology. It is the new age.

We are in the "last time," John said, and the "last time" is the last half-week of the 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24-27, which is also called the "time, times and a half." It is the period in which the saints are dominated by the little horn, Dan. 7:25. In Dan. 12:7, this period is shown to extend to the end of all of the prophecies of Daniel, to the resurrection of the saints whose names are written in the book of life.

Dan. 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The final "week" of the 70 weeks is the period in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints, or the church.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug and everyone
It's impossible to cover every single verse and angle that might or possibly be brought up. So personally speaking I won't try. Also prefer not to touch on what is covered already like the issue of 2 Tim 2:18.  :HeartThrob:


Quote:
Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]

Doug
End quote.

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle {old covenant tabernacle made with hands, not the physical body of each} were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
{New covenant body}
2Cr 5:2   For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:  
2Cr 5:3   If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
{as Adam was as an old covenant body. IE no longer in Adam}
2Cr 5:4   For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan,
{the Jews are still in that tabernacle in a direct fashion of having been entrusted with the oracles of God. Some were in this tabernacle and some were not. The Jews were directly the Gentiles were not directly. But both are waiting for its dissolving. For the Gentiles cannot have the fullness until the Jews do. In this regard they are both in the same position. That being as one grafted into Israel's spiritual things, not natural things}
being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.  
2Cr 5:5   Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {Both Jews and Gentiles}
2Cr 5:6   Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body {of this old tabernacle made with hands}, we are absent from the Lord: {waiting for his second appearance}
2Cr 5:7   (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {incorrectly translated. "We walk not by appearance" see 5:12 "them which glory in appearance, and not in heart" IE those that have confidence in the law}
2Cr 5:8   We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the {old covenant} body, and to be present with the Lord. {as opposed to those who do not walk by faith and glory in appearance, 5:12}
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present {as Jews} or absent {as Gentiles}, we may be accepted of him. {At his coming}  
2Cr 5:10   For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.  
{His body is the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. But it is the transitional body awaiting the second appearance.}  
2Cr 5:11   Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, {the wrath about to be} we {the apostles} persuade men; but we {the apostles} are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

The issue then is, why make it about us as if we are the audience as they were?

No we make it about us as one's looking back saying thank you Lord. The revelation of God's unconditional love has been given in its fullness displacing forever types and figures of good things that we now have.

Blessings Barry

[Doug]

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

Is that what he says?

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

He says on their generation is coming down all the righteous blood they and their ancestors have shed.

And, it did, didn't it?  Not one stone left standing, no more sacrifice for sin in the temple of man.  Their house left desolate.

Jesus is part of both that generation [ Adam] and the new one [the Man from heaven].

The generation that Jesus was part of was that of the early first century AD.

When Jesus said that the blood of the righteous who were slain, from Abel to Zechariah, will be required of this generation, why did he not say "Jews"? He said "All these things shall come upon this generation." This generation would include everyone who lived on earth, in the time of Jesus.

Now, what connection was there between Abel, who was slain by his brother Cain, and the Jews of the time of Jesus? The descendants of Cain probably died in the flood. The Jews in the time of Jesus were not even related!

How could a just and holy God punish people who lived thousands of years afterwards, who were not even related, for the murder of Abel? Doesn't that attribute an arbitrary, and absurd style of judgment to God? Of course, no righteous and wise God would do that.

Jesus took upon himself the sin of Cain, and all men, when he died on the cross. John the Baptist said he is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] So the fate of Jews who died in the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with God seeking vengeance for the blood of the saints who were slain, from Abel to the time of Zechariah.

Doug

How could a Holy and Just God do this:

1Pe 4:17 [Darby] For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God [is come]; but if first from us, what [shall be] the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?  
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and [the] sinner appear?  
Had to use Darby there because it is often misleading otherwise. The text is contextually saying:
"If the righteous is saved through sufferings {the difficulty is the sufferings in context and is not be be understood as scarcely saved} then you know that the sufferings of those who do not obey will be even greater.

Jesus suffered, and gave his life for us. And so, those who love him, offer themselves as a "living sacrifice."    

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Do you see the word "reasonable"? It is reasonable for us to submit ourselves to God, because he is a loving God.

I really don't think we are going to be able to ignore the "wrath to come" that was predicted. The destruction of Jerusalem had everything to do with judgment.
Now what exactly is fair?
Is this fair?
Rom 11:32   For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I don't see how it is "unfair." God has to open our minds, for us to believe in Him; if he had not opened their minds, they are considered unbelievers, so that he can have mercy on them, just as he had mercy on Paul, who said he "was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." [1 Tim. 1:13]

When we get caught up in what we think is fair for God to do we run the risk of losing sight of the plan.
What came upon the Jews of that time is the whole of the history of eschatology.

In the siege of Jerusalem, by the Romans, did Christ fight against the armies camped around about? [Zech. 14:3] did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and form a great valley? [Zech. 14:4] did the Jews flee to the valley? [Zech. 14:5] Did a river of "living water" flow from Jerusalem? [Zech. 14:8] was there darkness, and was the light neither "clear, nor dark"? [Zech. 14:6] was the land turned to a plain? [Zech. 14:10] Were the enemies struck with plague, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood upon their feet, and their eyes consumed away in their holes, and their tongue consumed away in their mouths? [Zech. 14:12] did they invaders fight against one another? [Zech. 14:13] were horses, mules, camels, and asses, all affected by the plague? [Zech. 14:15] did all people keep the feast of tabernacles afterward? [Zech. 14:16]

If we are honest, I think all would have to admit none of the above was fulfilled in the events of 70 AD in Jerusalem. Not even figuratively. But if you have an interpretation, or some explanation, feel free to offer it! Rebellious Jews who relied on Christ coming to fight on their behalf, as they thought Zechariah had said, were bitterly disappointed, and most died in the siege, or became slaves of the Romans.

Doug

[Doug]

Hey Doug and everyone
It's impossible to cover every single verse and angle that might or possibly be brought up. So personally speaking I won't try. Also prefer not to touch on what is covered already like the issue of 2 Tim 2:18.  :HeartThrob:


Quote:
Let's not forget, Paul said, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." [Rom. 14:10] And, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." [2 Cor. 5:10]

Doug
End quote.

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle {old covenant tabernacle made with hands, not the physical body of each} were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
{New covenant body}
2Cr 5:2   For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:  
2Cr 5:3   If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
{as Adam was as an old covenant body. IE no longer in Adam}
2Cr 5:4   For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan,
{the Jews are still in that tabernacle in a direct fashion of having been entrusted with the oracles of God. Some were in this tabernacle and some were not. The Jews were directly the Gentiles were not directly. But both are waiting for its dissolving. For the Gentiles cannot have the fullness until the Jews do. In this regard they are both in the same position. That being as one grafted into Israel's spiritual things, not natural things}
being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.  
2Cr 5:5   Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {Both Jews and Gentiles}
2Cr 5:6   Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body {of this old tabernacle made with hands}, we are absent from the Lord: {waiting for his second appearance}
2Cr 5:7   (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {incorrectly translated. "We walk not by appearance" see 5:12 "them which glory in appearance, and not in heart" IE those that have confidence in the law}
2Cr 5:8   We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the {old covenant} body, and to be present with the Lord. {as opposed to those who do not walk by faith and glory in appearance, 5:12}
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present {as Jews} or absent {as Gentiles}, we may be accepted of him. {At his coming}  
2Cr 5:10   For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.  
{His body is the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. But it is the transitional body awaiting the second appearance.}  
2Cr 5:11   Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, {the wrath about to be} we {the apostles} persuade men; but we {the apostles} are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

The issue then is, why make it about us as if we are the audience as they were?

No we make it about us as one's looking back saying thank you Lord. The revelation of God's unconditional love has been given in its fullness displacing forever types and figures of good things that we now have.

Blessings Barry

Most of the added notes between { and } are unnecessary, and confusing, IMHO.

Here is R.F. Weymouth's translation.

Chapter 5
For we know that if this poor tent, our earthly house, is taken down, we have in Heaven a building which God has provided, a house not built by human hands, but eternal.
For in this one we sigh, because we long to put on over it our dwelling which comes from Heaven--
if indeed having really put on a robe we shall not be found to be unclothed.
Yes, we who are in this tent certainly do sigh under our burdens, for we do not wish to lay aside that with which we are now clothed, but to put on more, so that our mortality may be absorbed in Life.
And He who formed us with this very end in view is God, who has given us His Spirit as a pledge and foretaste of that bliss.
We have therefore a cheerful confidence. We know that while we are at home in the body we are banished from the Lord;
for we are living a life of faith, and not one of sight.
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.
And for this reason also we make it our ambition, whether at home or in exile, to please Him perfectly.
For we must all of us appear before Christ's judgement-seat in our true characters, in order that each may then receive an award for his actions in this life, in accordance with what he has done, whether it be good or whether it be worthless.
Therefore, because we realize how greatly the Lord is to be feared, we are endeavouring to win men over, and God recognizes what our motives are, and I hope that you, in your hearts, recognize them too.

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Doug, our physical body is not made with hands. The old temple was made with hands.  
It is God that formed us in the womb not man.
And this fact IMO effectively undoes the notion that this is anything but the old covenant house that they are waiting to end.

This is IMHO the real problem with the common physical verses spiritual dichotomy. It breaks down quickly in context.

Adam was made a man of the dust but was not declared a man "of the dust" until he came under law. The problem is not with the physical.
The issue always was trying to make one's own image by coming under law. Wherein merely natural potential is seen to be independent of God and could then have a righteousness of its own. This is called "first the natural".
God has no problem with physicality, he created it. He has a problem with independence.

In the flesh does not mean, in the physical. It means under law, in an independent human potential.

Value is now to be seen as a gift of God through God's unconditional love. This is why types and figures had to go. The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.

It was always about God's covenant people. To be a light to the world. Neither Adam nor Israel could really be that light. And that is what it is about. The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.  
Now that transformation took 40 years or one generation.

Now if you Doug or anyone else wishes to think that covenant is not at the focus of all of this then that is your choice. You certainly do not have to believe what I believe. If you wish to believe that the coming of Christ is yet before us then you are free to do so as far as I'm concerned.
Each of us chooses what we want to believe. And then we live with those chooses at least for the time we have here.

Quote Doug:
Jesus suffered, and gave his life for us. And so, those who love him, offer themselves as a "living sacrifice."    

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Do you see the word "reasonable"? It is reasonable for us to submit ourselves to God, because he is a loving God.
End quote.

Not really sure why you are approaching this from this angle.
Paul did preach a wrath to come did he not? What was Peter saying then in 1 Peter 4:18? Just trying to understand.

Perhaps I should let this thread go from my own vantage point, and allow the many posts given so far to speak for themselves. Me continually adding to them and repeating may not be of any benefit to anyone at this time. And it certainly is not my thread (nor my forum for that matter) to do with as I wish.

I'll give my thoughts on Zech. 14 at some other point perhaps.
Many blessings to you Doug.
Love Barry  

[Zeek]

The revelation of God's unconditional love has displaced all types and figures.

The old had to end lest humanity be left always in the darkness of types and figures.  

YEAH!!!!  PRAISE GOD.    Thank YOU JESUS.