End times?

[Raggedy Anne]

Goodness.  All I can say is that I am thoroughly blessed by reading all that has been posted here since I last logged in and the things written that I'd never thought about before nor understood make me feel like a mere babe.    Thank you all for the heavenly manna.

Anne

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,

Firstly Doug,
This view does not negate the benefits of growth, maturity, knowing Christ, and kingdom living. It simply does not attempt to repeat what has already been accomplished and what is already fulfilled. 

I do very much appreciate your heart and your thoughts and I do respect your views, though I do disagree with some of them.
I do not function from a predetermined stand that you or anyone else must believe what I believe.
But if you do, then IMO you may understand the last 1939 years of Christendom trying to function without living apostles. Apostles whom themselves were clearly "generational".

My dear brothers and sisters who are part of the most predominate denomination in the world among the many thousands of other denominations, did realize that they needed their "Popes" to continue the appearance of a continued transitional body of Christ (which is the essence of biblical futurism).
We really do not know what happened in the very early years after the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 which Luke said was the indication of "the fulfillment of all things written".  Though some of the writings do have clear indications of a view of past fulfillment. However much of this information was destroyed. We know for certain that shortly afterward the "church" went into theocracy and then established its own army and so on and so forth.
Since that time we have come to the point where we just form in a committee, register with the government, build a place, hang a sign out on the front lawn, while the committee decides what is going to be our doctrine, our tenets of faith, what our version of the gospel is going to be, and what someone must do to be saved, and when to label someone else a heretic. And that last one is very important. It keeps control.

Then we think that this is perfectly normal and so is carrying on just like the days we read about some 1939 years past when they had living apostles and they had living evangelists appointed by living apostles to set things straight and keep order in all the churches. Such a "committee" apparently thinks it has the authority to replace the apostles in the apostle's absence. The problem of course is that such a committee only has jurisdiction to "label" another committee or group or person as heretics. So it really has no more authority than what those who attended that denomination give it.

So maybe I fell on my head as a child and it's still affecting me, but I have chosen to accept the abundant, clear and relentless time restraints given throughout the New Testament. The over 100 to 200 time restraints that apparently for the last 1900 years has so many either trying to explain away or just ignoring because of the enormous division concerning the subject matter.   

The one that 20 years ago hit me right between the eyes was this one:
Hbr 10:35 Ye may not cast away, then, your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward, 
Hbr 10:36 for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise,  
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

At least for me, there was just no getting around it. Nor could this be explained as a personal growth issue. Nor could there be another second appearance thereafter. This was clearly a "generational" setting just like that in the wilderness (Hebrews chapter 3 and 4).

The prophecy of Jesus that the gospel would be preached to all nations was given.
Mat 24:13   But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 
Mat 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[See Mark 16:15, Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8]
Mat 24:34   Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luk 21:22   For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Paul and the others a few years later, clearly claim, both that this had then been done, and that the end was at hand.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 
Rom 10:18   But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 
Rom 16:20   And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
Rom 16:26   But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Col 1:6   Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 
Tts 2:12   Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 
Tts 2:13   Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 
Hbr 1:2 {Youngs} in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Hbr 8:13   In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Hbr 9:8 {ASV} the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;
Hbr 10:25   Not forsaking the assembling {gathering unto Christ behind the veil} of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is] {who want to continue in the old}; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 
Hbr 13:14   For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Of course this is not even the tip of the preverbal iceberg. It is really quite relentless is scope.
Personally speaking, my own thoughts have been:
Am I to change the first century agenda and make it my own?
Am I to say that they got the "world" wrong?
Did Jesus get it wrong? Did Paul?
Or do I go back to the biblical principle of first order which is Audience Relevance and then extrapolate the eternal meaning.
When I do that I come up with "we are the benefactors not the inheritors". But that's just me.
That conclusion is very, very good news. And you are very right Doug. It is not the same exact good news as they taught because the Kingdom of God is not at hand. It's just plain old here right now in its fullness.
Does that mean that this is all we get? No! It means that everything has been made new from what it then was. Now IMO we can move forward because before we could not.
But placing ourselves in their time frame and in the specificity of their agenda is not IMO a good way of moving forward. It's like being stuck in the past.

Quote:For that matter when Jesus said of the temple to be torn down that he would rebuild on the third day that Temple was not even torn down until AFTER the death of the last Apostle.
End quote.

I certainly cannot agree with that Doug.
Jesus was talking about his body which was thrown down and resurrected the third day.
Mat 26:61   And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 17:23   And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Jhn 10:17   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 
Jhn 10:18   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Also John had the indication that he would but Peter would not live to see the second appearance. (John 21:22)

Blessings to you
Barry
 

[Doug]

I do very much appreciate your heart and your thoughts and I do respect your views, though I do disagree with some of them.
I do not function from a predetermined stand that you or anyone else must believe what I believe.
But if you do, then IMO you may understand the last 1939 years of Christendom trying to function without living apostles. Apostles whom themselves were clearly "generational".

Jesus chose his 12 disciples, and trained them, and prepared them to become the foundation of his church, along with the Old Testament prophets. Obviously, Jesus knew what he was doing; James even said, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." [Acts 15:18]

My dear brothers and sisters who are part of the most predominate denomination in the world among the many thousands of other denominations, did realize that they needed their "Popes" to continue the appearance of a continued transitional body of Christ (which is the essence of biblical futurism).
We really do not know what happened in the very early years after the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 which Luke said was the indication of "the fulfillment of all things written". 

One of the main things Jesus warned of in the Olivet Discourse was that false teachers would arise. Many would be deceived by them, he said. And Peter discussed this in 2 Peter 2. That indeed happened in the early centuries of the church, and continues today. One result was that the truth of gospel was obscured, as the teachings of the Apostles were merged with Greek philosophy, and superstition. IMO, this fulfilled the prophecy of Joel about the sun being turned to darkness, as the sun represents the gospel, and clothes the woman in heaven, Rev. 12:1, who represents the church.

Though some of the writings do have clear indications of a view of past fulfillment. However much of this information was destroyed. We know for certain that shortly afterward the "church" went into theocracy and then established its own army and so on and so forth.
Since that time we have come to the point where we just form in a committee, register with the government, build a place, hang a sign out on the front lawn, while the committee decides what is going to be our doctrine, our tenets of faith, what our version of the gospel is going to be, and what someone must do to be saved, and when to label someone else a heretic. And that last one is very important. It keeps control.

Then we think that this is perfectly normal and so is carrying on just like the days we read about some 1939 years past when they had living apostles and they had living evangelists appointed by living apostles to set things straight and keep order in all the churches. Such a "committee" apparently thinks it has the authority to replace the apostles in the apostle's absence. The problem of course is that such a committee only has jurisdiction to "label" another committee or group or person as heretics. So it really has no more authority than what those who attended that denomination give it.

So maybe I fell on my head as a child and it's still affecting me, but I have chosen to accept the abundant, clear and relentless time restraints given throughout the New Testament. The over 100 to 200 time restraints that apparently for the last 1900 years has so many either trying to explain away or just ignoring because of the enormous division concerning the subject matter.   

The one that 20 years ago hit me right between the eyes was this one:
Hbr 10:35 Ye may not cast away, then, your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward, 
Hbr 10:36 for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise,  
Hbr 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

At least for me, there was just no getting around it. Nor could this be explained as a personal growth issue. Nor could there be another second appearance thereafter. This was clearly a "generational" setting just like that in the wilderness (Hebrews chapter 3 and 4).

The church is pictured as a woman who flees to the wilderness in Rev. 12:6, and again in Rev. 12:14. In Rev. 12:6 she is in the wilderness for 1,260 days, and in Rev. 12:14 it is for "a time, times, and a half," which is a prophetic period, one half of "seven times," or half of a prophetic "week."

The final "week" of the 70 weeks spans both the ministry of Jesus, which many think was a half-week of three and a half years, plus the entire history of the church since then, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us.

The prophecy of Jesus that the gospel would be preached to all nations was given.
Mat 24:13   But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 
Mat 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[See Mark 16:15, Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8]
Mat 24:34   Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

Luk 21:22   For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Paul and the others a few years later, clearly claim, both that this had then been done, and that the end was at hand.

The Apostles probably did expect the end to occur in their lifetime, which spurred them to great accomplishments. However their understanding of prophecy changed. They saw the church becoming prey to false teachers as Peter warned in 2 Pet. 2.

Doug (another Doug)

[noname]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:

[Livelystone]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:

Psalm 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Psalm 112:2
His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

We are all heirs and our inheritance is the same as He who has brought us forth....... if we are resurrected with Him. Anything less is contrary to the law of the seed that Jesus has fulfilled and God's Law does not change !

BUT YOU MUST BELIEVE !!!

Blessings

Doug

[Raggedy Anne]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers. 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8

[Zeek]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers. 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8

with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.

Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.

??

[Barry DuPont]

That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.  

But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.

Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,  
{This is the generation of John the Baptist and Jesus}
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
{This compares the generation of that of Nineveh and that of Christ}
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
{This compares the generation of that of Solomon and that of Christ}
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.  
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
{This is about all previous generations from Zacharias son of Barachias which is the entire recorded history of eschatology in regards to shed blood upon the covenantal earth}  
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  
Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  
Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!  
Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Is Matthew chapter 24 different from all the other meanings of "this generation"?
Like I said, I may be misunderstanding the point. I certainly don't want to be argumentative. Just trying to understand from my own perspective.

Many blessings
Barry
 

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug,
If the apostles changed their mind about when these things were going to happen then why is this not evidenced in the writting of Jude.  
I what mean is that what Peter said would happen was clearly happening when Jude wrote and warned them at that time that what Jesus and the other said would happen was then happening.
Now we know that Peter and Jude are talking about the very same things. At least that seems very evident.

The question I would ask then is why look to happenings in the church today as the fulfillment of things that were clearly happening back then when they said they would be happening.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to understand.
I'm certainly willing to drop the subject if it's an inconvenience to anyone.  
Here's the text from Jude writting about the same thing that Peter did in 2 Peter 2.

Jud 1:4   For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.  


Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  
Jud 1:13   Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.  

Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.  
Jud 1:17   But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;  
Jud 1:18   How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Is Jude not indicated to them in this time what is then happening? Is this not the "last time"?


Blessings Barry

[Livelystone]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers. 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8

with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.

Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.

??

Not at all........ He who opens the door shuts the door and no man openeth it again

Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Those who are "dead in Christ" will rise at His coming into His temple(s)........ those who are not dead in Christ will not be caught up together with them that are. Re-read 1Thess 4:13-18 without that the teachings of the traditions of man interfering.

1Thes 4. 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Luke 6:1 is another prophecy of those who will be caught up with Him and the work they do purifying the wheat company (as in threshing the harvest).

Luke 6 1And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.



Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

hey Doug,
that was a brilliant observation! never thought about it like that before :thumbsup:

Psalm 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Psalm 112:2
His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

We are all heirs and our inheritance is the same as He who has brought us forth....... if we are resurrected with Him. Anything less is contrary to the law of the seed that Jesus has fulfilled and God's Law does not change !

BUT YOU MUST BELIEVE !!!

Blessings

Doug

:cloud9: Amen, Doug........ :thumbsup: the 42nd generation NOT recorded in there by name because it is a many-membered body. Blessings....

[Livelystone]

Good Morning Barry

I am glad you brought Jude up....... your ears must have been burning because I was just thinking about what Jude had to say on this subject.......... I do belive the Lord would have you to come to understand this brother  :HeartThrob:

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

Paul often made references to a second blessing just as he spoke of him and the others seeing Jesus twice......... considering many of them saw Jesus every day for over three years does that not seem strange?

Plus remember what the phrase "born out of due time" means !!! (born early as in a premature birth)

Hebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.

I need some chores done but I will check back from time to time

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.......Blessings.....

[Molly]

Hebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.

This bears repeating--after the shadow of the Old Testament priesthood.  Thanks!


Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, and thank You Lord for Your life hidden in your WRITTEN WORD. And in the 3rd day He will be perfected = He has a body to lay His head upon. Blessings......

[jabcat]

Now this is some meaty discussion within the scriptures.   Everybody pull up a chair and dig in at the banquet.  :2thumbs:

[Barry DuPont]

Hebrews 9:28 is not about Jesus appearing the second time without sin but those who are waiting for the second appearance of the high priest (Jesus Christ) in us will be the ones who will appear without sin just as He was the first time....... this is when the thorn in the flesh of Paul will be removed from those who will make up the sons of levi purified by God in Malachi.

This bears repeating--after the shadow of the Old Testament priesthood.  Thanks!


Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Hey Molly,
Thanks for the input.
Here is my take:
Actually the "thorn in the flesh" are the Judaizers. The brethren "in the flesh" of Paul who came behind everywhere he went and preached another gospel. His thorn in the flesh.
2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.  
2Cr 12:8   For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.  
2Cr 12:9   And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.  
2Cr 12:10   Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.  
2Cr 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.  
2Cr 12:12   Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
The subject matter is that of the Judaizers whom Paul referred to as false apostles. Paul is claiming to be a true apostles over-against these messengers of Satan.
2Cr 11:13   For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.  
2Cr 11:14   And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Notice how it all fits clearly together in context.
thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan
signs of an apostle were wrought among you
false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.  
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed

Paul's thorn in the flesh is not a mystery we have to guess at. They are clearly the Judaizers or false apostles that are in this very context.
Paul's thorn in the flesh are his brethren "in the flesh" where were Jews that are preaching the law.  

 
Concerning Hebrews:
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;  
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:  
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;  
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,  
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.  
Hbr 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
Hbr 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.  
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh:  
Hbr 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

{These "dead works" were still being performed at this time. They were told that way they were waiting for, was not yet manifested until the temple was torn down. That's the setting. That is what they were waiting for and what they saw coming.}

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.   Hbr 9:16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it.  
Hbr 9:17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth.
Hbr 9:18 Wherefore even the first [covenant] hath not been dedicated without blood.  
Hbr 9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,  
Hbr 9:20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward.  
Hbr 9:21 Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood.  
Hbr 9:22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.  
Hbr 9:23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

So the subject matter has never be changed here. The second appearance would be something that the believers would see as salvation. This does not mean that the other would not see it at all. Nor is the time restraints for both groups changed. They are the same. The end of the then standing temple made with hands.

Hbr 9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:  
Hbr 9:25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;  
Hbr 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.  
Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment;  
Hbr 9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

So for those effectually waiting, he appears a second for salvation. The second appearance of the high priest is what is in question. It is Christ that appeared a second time apart from sin. Because he had already taken sin to the grave. The second appearance of the high priest was seen as the acceptance of God of the given sacrifice.
Any way we see it however it is still a first century context connected with the throwing down of that temple in that time. What they saw coming. That is why they got out of Jerusalem before it happened.

To those who are not ready, "like a thief in the night".

Hbr 10:10 By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  
Hbr 10:11 And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins:  
Hbr 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;  
Hbr 10:13 henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.

When? When the temple made with hands is thrown down. For it is yet standing.

Hbr 10:23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:  
Hbr 10:24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;  
Hbr 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.  
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully {by continuing the aforementioned dead works} after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,  
Hbr 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.  

So their expectation is one that falls into a thief in the night. But for those waiting "salvation".

Hbr 2:2   For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;  
Hbr 2:3   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];  
Hbr 2:4   God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?  
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The world we now live in is not subject to angles.

Hbr 2:8   Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.  
They did not yet see all thing but they were about to. This was their expectation.

Hbr 8:13   In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.  

It was their full expectation that the end of the age was something they then saw coming.

I believe that it is hard for many to see this today. But for the same reasons that people have a hard time with UR. Or why people think that salvation is about getting to heaven.

Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In context, clearly the last days of the old covenant. That is the context through and through. The imminence is also through and through.  


JMO
Blessings to you
Barry

PS, Got some work to get down. Plan on addressing the seed topic and the generation topic shortly if that's ok.

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Doug and everyone.
[To be taken in connection with my above points on Philippians and their expectation of being complete in the day of Christ within their possible life span]
The generational context of the harvest:

1Cr 15:22   For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  
This is following the seed analogy. Prior to this, here what Paul had to say:

1Cr 15:3   For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  
1Cr 15:4   And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:  
1Cr 15:5   And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:  
1Cr 15:6   After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.  
1Cr 15:7   After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.  
1Cr 15:8   And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.  

The implication is generational. And it's not imo an eternal generation as pertains to the harvest.
Some had already "fallen asleep". So strong is the generation time restraint that some in Thessalonica were worried that those that had fallen asleep already that being prior to "the end" would lose their place in the "gathering" [as within the firstfruit context].

1Th 4:14   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  
1Th 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  

Paul had to assure them that those of that generation that fell asleep already, would not be left behind.

Now however you are calculating this aspect, we know that the harvest was at the end of the age that Jesus was in.
Mat 13:37 And he answering said to them, `He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man,  
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one,  
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.  
Mat 13:40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,  
Mat 13:41 the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,  
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.  
Mat 13:43 `Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.

This makes sense if we follow continuing message which is the end of the old covenant.
So the seed analogy is from within the framework of the "called out ones" or "saints" which were called out from the old covenant to be the firstfruits of the whole harvest.
This parallels with the "end of the age" as given in Matthew Chapter 24 as the destruction of the temple made with hands.

There is nothing in the analogy which speaks of us as part of the harvest. On the contrary everything here as well has imminence written all over it.
We are the benefactors. Time to start looking forward with what we are given IMO.

Now the problem with accepting that the apostles probably believed that the end was then near is that we should then simply conclude that they had it right. If they projected a false view in their writings to begin with then we are pretty much stuck with them projecting false views anywhere and anyhow. I know of no way around this.
If we feel that they in there writings were capable of giving a false impression on this matter then that is in and of itself quite a red flag imo. 
Think about this for just a moment:
Quote Doug:
The Apostles probably did expect the end to occur in their lifetime, which spurred them to great accomplishments.
End quote.

Why would you or anyone else have that impression if it were not evidently there?
If it is evidently there then it was a false impression was it not?
If they were wrong about this to begin with, what makes us think that they ever got it right? Maybe just another false impression they were giving. Maybe they were wrong about everything anyway?
It seems to me that we are stuck with the logic that they never gave that impression ever as something that they actually thought or that our impression is wrong if we think to the contrary.
Them changing their minds seems out of the question to me.
JMO

Blessings Barry

[Livelystone]

Hmmm, that is to bad........  still it was nice to read and share with those whom God has revealed what was and what will be when he makes up His jewels.

BTW Barry ........ where do you find in the scriptures that you need to keep things "in context"?

God's laws are the only way approved of by God for determining spiritual wisdom that are necessary for finding the "hidden manna". If you like "context they are in context as in abbreviated form in Isa 28 9-13.

Blessings

Doug

[Barry DuPont]

Hmmm, that is to bad........  still it was nice to read and share with those whom God has revealed what was and what will be when he makes up His jewels.

BTW Barry ........ where do you find in the scriptures that you need to keep things "in context"?

God's laws are the only way approved of by God for determining spiritual wisdom that are necessary for finding the "hidden manna". If you like "context they are in context as in abbreviated form in Isa 28 9-13.

Blessings

Doug

Yes Doug it has been a real blessing to me and it is always a joy to reconsider my views and consider other people's views.

The truth is there Doug, and it is in the context. The book is consistent and harmonious. So IMO it helps me keep my self importance out of the equation.

Personally speaking would rather hear what Paul and Jesus had to say than what I want to make it say.

Is it not the problem with seeing UR?
Does the context not prove UR?
IMHO it very much does.

Personally speaking I do not need to see myself as the first century "elect" to be a believer and love people dearly and proclaim God's love in Christ Jesus.  
Unity is not made it is realized. That's good news!
Value is not earned, it's a gift, and we all have it thanks to our Father.
Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Don't forget that what they walked out in the natural as natural Jews seeing the natural end of their age or portion, and transitioning to a new age, STILL means something spiritual both to them and to those of the succeeding generations that have come and gone since. Because one day is of the Spirit and not the law, and that age or DAY is without end. This is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.

God had 7 days and on the 7th He rested from all His works, which is why we rest IN HIM, IN the Spirit, and why He IS the resurrection = unending age. So with that understanding that there was an "overlap" of "ages" that began to be revealed then, one of which is not in time, but rather timelessness, let's look at Matt. 13 again.

Mat 13:37 And he answering said to them, `He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man,  
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one,

:cloud9: Who is the "good seed" and where is He "planted"? It is the Christ Seed and the field He is planted in, is your "world" or body of earth. This is why the word ankle in Hebrew has a meaning of, "the end of the world".

Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

:cloud9: The enemy that sowed the tares in this same "world" is the devil, and he sowed them while Adam was asleep. God put Adam to sleep, but you cannot find where He woke him up, until you perceive "arise and shake off the dust and Christ shall give thee light". The messages or messengers with messages are what "reap" the tares and loose them into the fire of God to be consumed.

Mat 13:40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

:cloud9: This age of flesh and tares ruling over this "world" of our bodies, starts to come to an end, when the tongues of fire come upon our heads from the baptism in His Spirit. God said He would destroy the earth again with a covering of fire, just as He did in the natural with a covering of water, and to baptize is to be covered.

And just as the earth is still here and didn't go anywhere but rather the flesh and tares (nephilim spirits) were consumed, so too does our "earth" get consumed with fire but the only thing that is supposed to leave is that which is of the evil one.

Mat 13:41 the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, Mat 13:42 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

:cloud9: The kingdom of God is within you, and so are the tares, ie. those things which cause us to do lawlessness when we come into agreement with them. The Lord, in His wisdom, had us praying for 2000 years, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven". What happened in heaven? Satan was kicked out.

And so too, do his tares and his rulership of our "earth" get kicked out. And since we are under the letter of the Word until the Spirit of the Word shows us how to walk out the letter thus keeping it perfectly, then this "age" begins to end IN US, while a new "age" takes over =

Mat 13:43 `Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.

:cloud9: We are told to beware the leaven of the Pharisees and the Saducees, and the Saducees are the ones who believed the resurrection was past already, as did one of the thieves on the cross who said IF you are the Christ, but He said TODAY is the day of your salvation, ie. not another day, but the day of CHRIST, the daystar that arises in our hearts with healing in His wings. Blessings....

[onlytruth]

good word Cardinal
blessings :icon_king:

[Doug]

That's an interesting perspective that I'm looking at. I've never heard that point of view before.  

But what should we conclude from that then?
Would this mean that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they were expecting within the scope of their generation never happened either? Perhaps that is not what your saying and I'm misunderstanding.

...

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  
Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  
Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
{As written in Acts}
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  

Would it be fair if God took vengeance on those Jews for the sins of their ancestors committed centuries before? 

The blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Zacharias was required of Jesus, when he took on himself the sins of the world. Jesus was part of that generation, and he represents that generation in the verses quoted above, just as in Mat. 24.

Doug

[Molly]

This is how "they" can be of the same age or day as us, yet in linear time, 2000 years has passed, and why they without us cannot be made perfect.

Yes and generation has the meaning of a like group of people, homogenous, instead of the way we usually think about it, every 20 years or so, or an age, as in the age of those persons, the time period that they are existing.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.


G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

[Doug]

Jesus said that his generation shall not pass, till all was fulfilled, and he remains alive, as he rose from the dead. So his generation has not passed; it will not pass away, ever! It is a unique generation.

Amen, we are the generation of Jesus Christ who was the firstborn of many brothers. 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8

with this logic, all there ever will be is "firstborn/firstfruits" brothers; and no coming harvest.

Because "that generation will not pass away UNTIL all fulfilled"; but if it never can "pass away", then the "fulfilled" can never happen.

??

This seems to be backwards, IMO; perhaps your reasoning ought to go like this: "if all that needs to be fulfilled will not happen until heaven and earth cease to exist, then Jesus' generation will not pass away, as long as the earth remains." The saying of Jesus, about "this generation," is followed by a reference to the durability of heaven and earth.     

Matthew 24:34-35
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Doug