Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

[Tom]

I agree. All is out of God, and God is operating all. (Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11) I think the church's false doctrine is the work of the Adversary competing with and masquerading as the "ecclesia," "the body of Christ," but eventually the truth will be revealed to all.

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

I agree. All is out of God, and God is operating all. (Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11) I think the church's false doctrine is the work of the Adversary competing with and masquerading as the "ecclesia," "the body of Christ," but eventually the truth will be revealed to all.

Yes, just like in the story of Cinder-Ella, the daughters of the evil stepmother will try to fit the glass slipper and be the Bride, but they will fail.  The true Bride will come forth, and when she does, all will realise that they should have known it all along...in the meantime, Ella has forgotten that she was of noble birth.

[RonnyTX]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)

This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)

[dajomaco]

 :dsunny: Nice Post

There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.

IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.

[rosered]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)

This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)

  :goodpost:        both say so much and AMEN!!!        :boyheart:


   So many   cannot     understand this      beautiful part of Gods plan       :thumbsup:

satan is last  for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary   part of Gods plan

all things work  together for the good of those    whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose     :flowerred:

  keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the  hard parts       the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit     and fire     sent  for the Glory of God
  to be revealed unto us   ,  each and every one   

[RonnyTX]

   ..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:

Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.

[rosered]

:dsunny: Nice Post

There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.

IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.

  Amen BRO D!   

   it is   !!   THE THING WITH     any one of us is   '' knowing ''  verses'' not knowing ''     and all is for His glory   

  knowing this   that as Babylon    falls away the falling together    of every   Word of GOD  is fulfilled     within our walls of  salvation     Christ being built up within each and everyone of us           
James 1



To ·all of God's people [L the twelve tribes; C an allusion to the twelve tribes of Israel; referring either to Jewish Christians or all believers as the new covenant people of God] ·who are scattered everywhere in the world [L in the Diaspora/Dispersion; C a reference to the scattering of the Jews during the Babylonian captivity, now applied to the church]: Greetings.

Faith and Wisdom
2 My brothers and sisters [C fellow believers], when you have many kinds of ·troubles [trials; testing], ·you should be full of joy [L consider it all/pure joy], 3 because you know that these troubles test your faith, and this will give you ·patience [perserverance; endurance].


4 [L And] Let your ·patience [perserverance; endurance] ·show itself perfectly in what you do [have its full effect; finish its work]. Then you will be ·perfect and complete [mature and whole; or completely mature] and will ·have everything you need [L lack nothing]. 5 But if any of you ·needs [lacks] wisdom, you should ask God for it [Prov. 2:6]



. He is generous to everyone and will give you wisdom ·without criticizing you [without finding fault; ungrudgingly; Matt. 7:7].



6 But when you ask God, you must ·believe [ask with faith] and not doubt. Anyone who doubts is like a wave in the sea, ·blown up and down [driven and tossed] by the wind. [L For] Such doubters are ·thinking two different things at the same time [L double-minded], and they ·cannot decide about anything they do [L are unstable in all they do]. They should not ·think [expect] they will receive anything from the Lord.

   the trouble   of Babylon  falling away        is painful and the Building  up of the Temple of God is glorious !!

[RonnyTX]

I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators.  I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome.  I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.

HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO

In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us.  Sometimes, it has surprises.

Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth.  Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated.  The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark.  We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them.  There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.  Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.

Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today:  she is my own flesh and blood.  I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall.  God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die.  God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed.  Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility?  Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...

Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.

Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.

Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died.  However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.

Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them.  All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed.  The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned.  Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.

Chapter 20
Abimelek  takes  Sarah  from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death.  Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk.  Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.

Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.

Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.

Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.

Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell.  He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact:  death, not Hell.

Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.

There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.

Ronny to Lazarus:
An interesting thing to me,is that in scripture we're told the following. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men." John 1:1,4  OK,what I would ask of a person who still believes in a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment,is just where in the scripture  are we given the account of where,when and how,He created that? Now in all of my time in a local church,I don't think I ever even thought of that! But instead,I simply believed local church leaders,who taught me there was a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. For the way I was taught there,if our local church leaders taught such,then it had to be of God and true beyond question. And such is a religious tenet of some men;but not of God.

[rosered]

   ..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:

Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.

I love it that you both here   Bro Ronnie and Marie
  I do read many posts

   and are blesed by those willing to share their  personal   growth in truth and grace   


   I believe the building up of Jesus Christ  this Mountain in the earth      is by His SPIRIT OF HOLINESS   and all will come and worship  HIM

and as with growing pains the tearing down of Babylon      is also essential       in everyone of us as well   

  we get to experience both the    chastening of the Lord and     seeing His glory revealed  in the earth as it is in heaven

  Time is not a     thing God concerns Himself with      as us humans  do

   God made  3 ages and stages           for us to learn from
  being what was and what is and what is to come

  We only Know what we  know by His mercy and giving to us by His own Spirit and truth      , those are what we have to    praise God with     always

   Love to all , its the greatest  gift of God we can ever possess    in our hearts   that being Jesus Christ , I now understand that Jesus is the reward !   

I have said it for years about      this        fact      but  has  just now becoming a reality      :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

:dsunny: Nice Post

There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.

IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.

I agree that God doesn't have or need a plan B because he is operating all according to his will (Ephesians 1:11), but, if you're a believer, I don't think you need to be concerned with being thrown into the lake of fire because it's the second death and you'll have eonian life in Christ.

[RonnyTX]

I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.

Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)

And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)

[RonnyTX]

I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."

Ronny to Tom:
Amen! God's judgements,are always for the persons own good!

[RonnyTX]

Despite the fact that I think some folks may speak of God's vengeance in the Hebrew scriptures, I don't believe God literally needs to seek revenge because it is he who is operating all. God created evil to humble us, and God created the Adversary to try us. But we will all be free from evil at the consummation of the eons because God is love, and God will all in all.

Ronny to Tom:
Amen and amen! :-)

[RonnyTX]

IMO

God has always the very best for each individual at every point of time.
If we are willfully ignorant whatever is happening to us is the
very best God has for us at that point and time.
Being thrown into the lake of Fire is the very best God
has at that point in time for that individual.
Out of the billions of possibilities for each person at any point in time
God has picked the best for that individual.

Ronny to Dajomaco:
Amen! :-)

[Tom]

I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.

Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)

And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)

I agree. We all need guidance and correction, and everything God does is for our good. I believe even evil serves a purpose for ultimate good, and it will eventually be nullified because it will no longer be necessary when God is all in all.

[RonnyTX]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)

This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)

Rosered:
  :goodpost:        both say so much and AMEN!!!        :boyheart:


   So many   cannot     understand this      beautiful part of Gods plan       :thumbsup:

satan is last  for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary   part of Gods plan

all things work  together for the good of those    whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose     :flowerred:

  keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the  hard parts       the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit     and fire     sent  for the Glory of God
  to be revealed unto us   ,  each and every one

Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)

And Rosered,I remember 19 years ago now,how God so used that scripture to help me!     :-)  I had been taught one thing by some local church elders and had believed such,since I was 12 years old. So,I believed something they taught me about myself,for 28 years. Then God brought some other Christians into my life,that made me wonder if what I'd been taught,was true or not? And one Christian preacher in particular,God had brought him into my life,to show me that if I didn't understand a matter and or wasn't sure,I was simply to ask God. Ask God to show me. Ask God to guide me and show me,as I read and studied on some scriptures. And in my 40th year,I had done that on one subject,for around 6 weeks. My,I so wanted to understand and know one thing and whether it was true or not. I wanted to know for sure and therefore,I wanted to know from God and God alone. So,I was reading the scriptures and asking God to guide and show me. And I was seeing somethings;but after maybe 6 weeks,I still didn't have a definate answer. And one night I was reading scripture and despaired of ever finding out the truth of this particular matter. And when I really despaired,I began to have some thoughts of suicide. I was sitting at the kitchen table and thought about the rifle,that was sitting over in the corner of the room. And just as soon as I had that thought,God put this scripture in my mind! :-) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 And just as soon as God did that for me,I simply stopped and asked/prayed to God. Asking God,if something I had been taught to believe,was true or not? If some specific part of me,was sinful or not? And God simply answered my prayer and said no. And I can't explain how I heard that;but hear it I did and I knew my answer was from God. :-) Well,right at first I couldn't believe such,so I prayed the 2nd time,asking God the same again. And in like manner,God simply replied to my prayer and gave me the same answer again! :-) So what I had to know,was desperate to know and what I wanted to know and that directly from God,that is exactly what God gave to me and did for me. :-) Just shaking my head in wonder,at the ways God works and the love of God! :-)

[rosered]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)

This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)

Rosered:
  :goodpost:        both say so much and AMEN!!!        :boyheart:


   So many   cannot     understand this      beautiful part of Gods plan       :thumbsup:

satan is last  for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary   part of Gods plan

all things work  together for the good of those    whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose     :flowerred:

  keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the  hard parts       the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit     and fire     sent  for the Glory of God
  to be revealed unto us   ,  each and every one

Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)

And Rosered,I remember 19 years ago now,how God so used that scripture to help me!     :-)  I had been taught one thing by some local church elders and had believed such,since I was 12 years old. So,I believed something they taught me about myself,for 28 years. Then God brought some other Christians into my life,that made me wonder if what I'd been taught,was true or not? And one Christian preacher in particular,God had brought him into my life,to show me that if I didn't understand a matter and or wasn't sure,I was simply to ask God. Ask God to show me. Ask God to guide me and show me,as I read and studied on some scriptures. And in my 40th year,I had done that on one subject,for around 6 weeks. My,I so wanted to understand and know one thing and whether it was true or not. I wanted to know for sure and therefore,I wanted to know from God and God alone. So,I was reading the scriptures and asking God to guide and show me. And I was seeing somethings;but after maybe 6 weeks,I still didn't have a definate answer. And one night I was reading scripture and despaired of ever finding out the truth of this particular matter. And when I really despaired,I began to have some thoughts of suicide. I was sitting at the kitchen table and thought about the rifle,that was sitting over in the corner of the room. And just as soon as I had that thought,God put this scripture in my mind! :-) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 And just as soon as God did that for me,I simply stopped and asked/prayed to God. Asking God,if something I had been taught to believe,was true or not? If some specific part of me,was sinful or not? And God simply answered my prayer and said no. And I can't explain how I heard that;but hear it I did and I knew my answer was from God. :-) Well,right at first I couldn't believe such,so I prayed the 2nd time,asking God the same again. And in like manner,God simply replied to my prayer and gave me the same answer again! :-) So what I had to know,was desperate to know and what I wanted to know and that directly from God,that is exactly what God gave to me and did for me. :-) Just shaking my head in wonder,at the ways God works and the love of God! :-)

  Thanks Bro Ronnie
  that is just so precious !!     wow , I   understand    what you mean when come to that place,,, where we all ,'' but give up everything !!''   

To Know God and His Will   
I believe this is exactly how all of   us learn  from asking  God for His Wisdom     over matters  and opening the scriptures up   
  God really does Love us , we have such a hard time knowing  that  simple  yet   beautiful and profound part

  I know this time of year we have little    birds struggling to survive the harsh winters , we got a doozy last night
  and when you feed them all     ,  its fun to watch , but this one little bird flew up on the window sill     as to    not fear   , but  be   bold   and  trust     and just   do a little dance on the sill   and my heart swelled for all the  little birds because of that one      and as I watched , I thought God   because OF JESUS CHRIST 

  coming as the one     and you loving  ALL   because of your ONE OF A KIND SON !    Showing mercy though the suffering of all     your kind hand feeds us everyone          I loved that lesson     , I knew  Gods Love was  more precious        than any thing we could ever imagine !!   

He does this often    in things    and ways that teach us as well,   His mercy and    loving kindness        Jesus prays for all the intercessor   though His Spirit  for all   to survive   and live      even in harsh times


:HeartThrob:         

[RonnyTX]

Hey Tom, misread your post, saw soldiers (my eyes are not so great) but I get the drift of what you are saying.

Laz, I will respect your request and try to focus on the theme you set in your initiial post :o)

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Don't know if this would help you or not;but at least the local Walmart I shop at,it has good reading glasses,3 pair for less than $4! :-)

And you probably already know the following about your computer;but I just discovered this part yesterday! (ha) But I was on one webpage and there was told that if I needed to make the print bigger,I just needed to hold down on the keyboard CTRL button and then press the + button. My,I was shocked,when I kept doing that,at how large it could make the print! :-) But then,I didn't know how to make the huge print,go back to smaller print?! :-(  LoL Finally dawned on me,to just hold down the CTRL button,while pushing down on the - button! (ha) Sure enough, the print went back to what it had been and even smaller! (ha) Like I say,you and others here,probably already know about that on your computers;but I'm still learning,many of these really good keyboard tricks! :-)

[RonnyTX]

Micah:
Don't we all on this forum know what seems to be a reproving of what we all have learned to be truths? I mean is there anyone here, with all the debate of proof, that can change the mind of all those who don't know and are are not here on the forum to hear and read? If I am out of line, I am sorry.  :HeartThrob:

As for "Heaven yes," I have not found much about heaven in my Bible. Other than the same source that gives us information about hell, which we know is not, what does your Bible tell you...you... as you read about heaven? I am just asking. :HeartThrob:

Lazarus to Micah:
Micah, if you are referring to the usual harp-on-a-cloud Heaven, then no, there is not much about that in the Bible.

Ronny to Micah:
Micah,just thinking about guys down my way, here in Texas and I think most would prefer a guitar in heaven,as opposed to a harp! :-) LoL

[Lazarus Short]

Sometimes, you gots to wonder about that...

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[RonnyTX]

   ..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:

Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.

Rosered to Marie and Ronny:
I love it that you both here   Bro Ronnie and Marie
  I do read many posts

   and are blesed by those willing to share their  personal   growth in truth and grace   


   I believe the building up of Jesus Christ  this Mountain in the earth      is by His SPIRIT OF HOLINESS   and all will come and worship  HIM

and as with growing pains the tearing down of Babylon      is also essential       in everyone of us as well   

  we get to experience both the    chastening of the Lord and     seeing His glory revealed  in the earth as it is in heaven

  Time is not a     thing God concerns Himself with      as us humans  do

   God made  3 ages and stages           for us to learn from
  being what was and what is and what is to come

  We only Know what we  know by His mercy and giving to us by His own Spirit and truth      , those are what we have to    praise God with     always

   Love to all , its the greatest  gift of God we can ever possess    in our hearts   that being Jesus Christ , I now understand that Jesus is the reward !   

I have said it for years about      thzis        fact      but  has  just now becoming a reality      :HeartThrob:

Ronny to Rosered:
Amen Rosered and thank you too, :-) for it is a blessing from God to me,for me to be here too, with you folks! :-)  And as far as I now know,probably 99.9% of my family,is still either Calvinist or Arminian/free will in belief. So not many people here,that I can have a cival discusssion with,when it comes to UR. Though my oldest Sis,who I now live with,she did say that she much prefers my way of believing now,to one of our older brothers still believing Calvinism. :-) And of course,she also knows,that was the way I was brought up in the local church to believe. So,she seems to much prefer the way I believe some things now. :-) And that so,despite her going to an Arminian/free will type  church and now believing that way.

And your post also reminded me,of something very important! :-) Awhile back, one of my nephews and his wife,they took me to the local hospital emergency room. That,was when I was real sick and itching terribly bad at times! :-( But this young lady,she works for some medical people,in our local town,she knew the doctor who would be working the emergency room that night and thought she could easily get me in to see him. That didn't work out and we stayed in the emergency room waiting room for a while after 9pm and then they put me in an observation room till 1am in the night. Never got to see a doctor and we gave up and came on home. But while there,I got to do a good bit of talking,with that nephew and his wife. :-) Among other things,I got to tell them about the tentmaker.org webpages! :-) And how people here believe and that I also now believe,that before all is said and done,God will save everyone,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-) Well lo and behold,my nephew's wife told me,she also sees it that way! :-) My,that was a nice thing to know and to hear! :-) For before that,there was no one in my family,who saw these things,as I now do and have, for about 4 and 1/2 years now.

[RonnyTX]

I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.

Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)

And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)

Tom to Ronny:
I agree. We all need guidance and correction, and everything God does is for our good. I believe even evil serves a purpose for ultimate good, and it will eventually be nullified because it will no longer be necessary when God is all in all.

Ronny to Tom:
Amen! :-)

And Tom,one thing I've sure seen in my life at times,is evil  come my way. This at times,for years on end and my being taught in church,as a child,that it was my fault. So not really evil,as I was taught to see it;but something I thought,was  taught to think/believe,that I deserved. And when God showed me better,for awhile there,I got very mad and bitter,at some people. But that didn't help me any. But God brought good out of this evil. It meant when I got older,I was able to help some younger people,who were still going through some things,of a similar nature.

I still wonder some though,about somethings. I can understand some of my early local church leaders,being ignorant and misinformed about somethings. For they taught me to believe some wrong things,just as they had been taught. But what got to me more,was some of these people at least,being Calvinist in belief, just as I once was and yet some had this selfrighteous,looking down on some other people attitude. This better than you,holier than thou zsort of way,of looking down on some people. And my question for a long time,was how can a person have that way of thinking and acting and be a Calvinist in belief? It makes no sense. For if a person is truly Calvinist in belief,then they have not one thing to brag about and not one right to look down on anyone. Yet in my years as a Calvinistic type believer,I certainly saw some people of the same belief,who selfrighteous and much looked down on some other people. And they taught me to be the same and I was the same,in a good many ways,until God knocked such out of me! (ha)

Makes me wonder now,was John Calvin a man who had humility and caring for people or not? I've never read much about the man;but have heard that he had one or more of his enemies,put to death. Well,there's no love,humility or caring in that.  And such,is certainly not of God/Jesus Christ.

[RonnyTX]

Sometimes, you gots to wonder about that...

Ronny to Lazarus:
Good one! :-) And BTW,I can really like some accordion music! :-) Like the polka and some southern Louisiana type playing on such! :-) LoL

[RonnyTX]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)

This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)

Rosered:
  :goodpost:        both say so much and AMEN!!!        :boyheart:


   So many   cannot     understand this      beautiful part of Gods plan       :thumbsup:

satan is last  for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary   part of Gods plan

all things work  together for the good of those    whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose     :flowerred:

  keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the  hard parts       the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit     and fire     sent  for the Glory of God
  to be revealed unto us   ,  each and every one

Ronny to Rosered:
Just thought of something else! :-) And I need to get this part written out. But I've always said I want my funeral to be much,like a congregational singing! :-) And right off of the bat,I can think of 3 songs,that I want the whole congregation to sing. Amazing Grace,How Great Thou Art and The Love of God! :-) And I know some scriptures too,that I would want to be read at my funeral. Those like,in Adam all die,in Jesus Christ all shall be made alive! :-)

Well,years ago now,an aunt of mine gave me this idea. For,for her funeral, beforehand she wrote out exactly what songs she wanted sung and what scriptures she wanted read. I like that,I really like that idea. :-)