I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators. I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome. I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.
HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO
In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us. Sometimes, it has surprises.
Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth. Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark. We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them. There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists. Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.
Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today: she is my own flesh and blood. I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall. God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die. God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed. Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility? Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...
Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.
Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.
Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died. However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.
Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them. All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed. The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned. Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.
Chapter 20
Abimelek takes Sarah from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death. Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk. Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.
Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.
Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.
Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.
Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell. He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact: death, not Hell.
Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.
Laz, I fear most of what is called Christians today read the Bible from NT to OT and are tutored by theologians who have read in the same directions. I applaud your work, Thayer collected and wrote much of the same, but Bible Truth is not to be embraced when the legend and lore is more accepted and the imaginations of men make them feel good. I like the work! :dsunny:
Great idea. :thumbsup:
Most Christians would already doubt that Biblical patriarchs, like Jacob/Joseph would go to hell. I think the most interesting evidence would concern the wicked. When you are done let me know, I'd like to post it on my site.
I am a simple gal and love to learn
You know I believe its awesome!!! Great work Bro Dennis ! to God be the glory for those willing to do the work
:flowerred:
I really dont think folks can help believing in the things they do, God also gave some great imaginations to mankind .
And we would not see great artist and books and inventions , such as the wheel without it .
I have learned not to see everything black and White .
There is no such thing ! , just imaginations thinking there is :laughing7:
and this world is full of vanity after all , but this is where it all stops .Its a short run at any stretch of the imaginations :happytired:
I think it's clear that the result of sin is death not torture in fire forever.
"Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying." (Genesis 2:17)
"For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
The King James Version inconsistently translates the Hebrew "sheol" as "grave," "pit," "earth," and "hell," and the corresponding Greek "hades," literally "unseen," "tartaroo," literally "Tartarus," and "geenna," literally "Gehenna" as "hell." The word "hell" is an Old English word referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna." "And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
I think the first place in the Hebrew scriptures that fire is associated with the "unseen" is in the following verse, but it seems to be figurative language, and I think it is the first place the King James Version translates "sheol" as "hell."
"For a fire will be kindled by My anger, and it shall glow unto the unseen beneath; it shall devour the earth and its crop, and it shall set aflame the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22)
Here are a couple of other verses in the Hebrew scriptures associating fire with the "unseen," but they also seem to be figurative language.
"The unseen and the restrained womb, The earth when it is not satisfied with water, And fire that never says: Enough wealth!" (Proverbs 30:16)
"Place me like a seal upon your heart, Like a seal upon your arm, For love is strong as death, Its jealousy hard as the unseen, Its burning coals as burning coals of fire, The blaze of Yah." (Song of songs 8:6)
I don't think there are any verses in the Greek scriptures associating fire with the "unseen," and that is only seen in the King James Version and other popular versions due to forgery in the translation by intentionally confusing "Gehenna" with the "unseen."
Even Christ was in the "unseen" until his resurrection.
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay. Thou makest known to me the paths of life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.' "Men! Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among us until this day. Being, then, inherently, a prophet, and having perceived that God swears to him with an oath, out of the fruit of his loin to seat One on his throne, perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27-31)
So I say the word "hell" should not be used in scripture translation anymore due to the confusion it has caused by the forgery perpetrated to confuse it with "Gehenna." It is an Old English word that is used to slander the Father and confuse and terrify believers. I say get rid of "hell" for good, and use the word "unseen" to translate the Greek "hades" which literally means "unperceived" or "unseen." I say to all my brothers and sisters who have not yet come to know the truth that you have nothing to fear from "hell" because all of us who will die will become "unseen" which is all that "hell" is. When somebody is dead, you don't see them anymore. They are "unseen."
http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o
The modern translations had the good sense to remove it from the Old Testament. I wish they had the good sense to remove it from the New.
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
I've been wondering about this parable where the rich man was in hades and there was fire there. I would like a simple explanation (if there is one) that I could use for people arguing that there is a hell.
I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
Quote from: bushy on November 12, 2014, 08:08:26 PM
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
I've been wondering about this parable where the rich man was in hades and there was fire there. I would like a simple explanation (if there is one) that I could use for people arguing that there is a hell.
I think it is about the transition of the kingdom from the Jews to Gentiles
http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.html
Quote from: Tom on November 12, 2014, 08:35:32 PM
I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
Thanks Tom,
I managed to read through part 1. It definitely is not a simple answer to the rich man and Lazarus questions people have though it had some interesting points.
You said Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. To me that means since they had fallen for the pagan idea of torture in fire He went along with it in the story but they were the ones headed there. In the article he seems to say the story is factually correct because Jesus wouldn't make a story that wasn't accurate. But what about fire in hades, the unseen place of the dead where everyone goes when they die? Maybe part 2 has an answer for that but I don't think i'll read it now, it's over my head or at least my interest level. :sigh:
Quote from: Seth on November 12, 2014, 08:38:57 PM
I think it is about the transition of the kingdom from the Jews to Gentiles
http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.html
That would fit with the theme of the Book Mathew quite well.
:iagree:
Quote from: bushy on November 13, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 12, 2014, 08:35:32 PM
I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
Thanks Tom,
I managed to read through part 1. It definitely is not a simple answer to the rich man and Lazarus questions people have though it had some interesting points.
You said Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. To me that means since they had fallen for the pagan idea of torture in fire He went along with it in the story but they were the ones headed there. In the article he seems to say the story is factually correct because Jesus wouldn't make a story that wasn't accurate. But what about fire in hades, the unseen place of the dead where everyone goes when they die? Maybe part 2 has an answer for that but I don't think i'll read it now, it's over my head or at least my interest level. :sigh:
Right, part 2 is where that's explained.
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
I think "Gehenna" will be used for burning the corpses of executed criminals in the next eon.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
"Gehenna" is only associated with burning living souls if you believe living souls are alive when they're dead and "Gehenna" is "hell," but the only reason to think "Gehenna" is "hell" is if you ignore the forgery in the translation of scripture confusing "Gehenna" with "hell." (Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6)
I think "the lake of fire" is for burning the corpses of unbelievers who will be condemned to it after they are judged before the great white throne, and "the second death" defines "the lake of fire."
"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)
In other words, the mortals who will be cast into "the lake of fire" will be dead and not able to suffer any "torment" like those supernatural creatures who will, the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
"It is important to perceive the setting of this story concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. It is not some sudden and disconnected literal revelation concerning the state of the dead, certainly not one which is contradictory to the law and the prophets!
At this juncture, the Lord was at the summit of His condemnation of the Pharisees for invalidating the word of God by their traditions. He avails Himself of some of those very teachings, adapting them for His own purpose, judging them out of their own mouths (cf Luke 19:22). When the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is read in the light of the rest of the Scriptures, and especially in the light of the context, we may readily perceive in it the traditions of the Pharisees, which were "high among men," yet "an abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15).
Following these words, the Lord declares, "The law and the prophets are unto John; thenceforth, the evangel of the kingdom of God is being brought, and everyone is violently forcing into it, and the violent are snatching it. Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fail. Everyone dismissing his wife and marrying her who has been dismissed from a husband, is committing adultery" (Luke 16:16-18; cf Matt.12:39).
These are the words which immediately precede those concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. "God's revelation was made by many modes, each appropriate to the time when it was used. 'The law and the prophets,' a title of the Hebrew Scriptures, which we now misname the 'Old Testament,' was His means of dealing with Israel until John the baptist, the greatest of all the prophets. He was the forerunner of a new method of divine revelation through the incarnation of Christ. The proclamation of the kingdom did not receive the response of contrite hearts, according to the law, but rather awakened a desire for its establishment by carnal means. At one time they would have taken Christ by force, because He had satisfied their hunger, and would have made Him king. This would have meant a revolt and war and bloodshed.
"Not only does He intimate that the Pharisees are to be dismissed from the stewardship, but this apparently unconnected statement [concerning adultery and divorce] suggests that the nation is to be divorced from Yahweh, and left desolate. This is a fitting link to lead us up to the final section of this five-fold parable, in which Israel's fate during her divorce is discussed" (Concordant Commentary, p.122).
The Talmud (Hebrew, talmudh, "instruction") is the traditional, uninspired, body of Jewish civil and religious laws (and related commentaries and discussion). In it "we have those very traditions gathered up which the Lord refers to through the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in His condemnation of the Pharisees. We can thus find out exactly what those popular traditions were.
" 'Paradise,' 'The carrying away by angels,' 'Abraham's bosom,' and so forth, were the popular expressions constantly used. Christ was not the first Who used these phrases, but He used the language of the Pharisees, turning it against themselves.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol.72, there is quoted from the Juchasin, fol.75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: 'This day he sits in Abraham's bosom,' i.e., the day he died.
"There is a difference here between the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds—the former says Rabbi Judah was 'carried by angels'; the latter says that he was 'placed in Abraham's bosom.'
"Here we have again the Pharisees' tradition as used against them by our Lord.
"(2) There was a story of a woman who had seen six of her sons slain (we have it also in 2 Macc. vii.). She heard the command given to kill the youngest (two-and-a-half years old), and running into the embraces of her little son, kissed him and said, Go thou, my son, to Abraham my father, and tell him: Thus saith thy mother, Do not thou boast, saying, I built an altar, and offered my son Isaac. For thy mother hath built seven altars, and offered seven sons in one day, etc. (Midrash Echah, fol.68. 1).
"(3) Another example may be given out of a host of others (Midrash on Ruth, fol.44, 2; and Midrash on Coheleth (Ecclesiastes) fol.86, 4): 'There are wicked men, that are coupled together in this world. But one of them repents before death; the other doth not; so the one is found standing in the assembly of the just, the other in the assembly of the wicked. The one seeth the other and saith, Woe! and Alas! there is accepting of persons in this thing: he and I robbed together, committed murder together; and now he stands in the congregation of the just, and I, in the congregation of the wicked. They answered him: O thou most foolish among mortals that are in the world! Thou wert abominable and cast forth for three days after thy death, and they did not lay thee in the grave; the worm was under thee, and the worm covered thee; which, when this companion of thine came to understand, he became a penitent. It was in thy power also to have repented, but thou didst not. He saith to them, let me go now, and become a penitent. But they say, O thou foolishest of men, dost thou not know, that this world in which thou art, is like the Sabbath, and the world out of which thou comest is like the evening of the Sabbath? If thou dost not provide something on the evening of the Sabbath, what wilt thou eat on the Sabbath day? Dost thou not know that the world out of which thou camest is like the land; and the world, in which thou now art, is like the sea? If a man make no provision on land for what he should eat at sea, what will he have to eat? He gnashed his teeth, and gnawed his own flesh.
"(4) We have examples also of the dead discoursing with one another; and also with those who are still alive (Berachoth, fol.18, 2—Treatise on Blessings). 'R. Samuel Bar Nachman saith, R. Jonathan saith, How doth it appear that the dead have any discourse among themselves? It appears from what is said (Deut.xxxiv. 4), And the Lord said unto him, This is the land, concerning which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac and Jacob, saying: What is the meaning of the word saying? The Holy Blessed God saith unto Moses, Go thou and say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the oath which I sware unto you, I have performed unto your children. Note that: Go thou and say to Abraham,' etc.
"Then follows a story of a certain pious man that went and lodged in a burying place, and heard two souls discoursing among themselves. 'The one said unto the other, Come, my companion, and let us wander about the world, and listen behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world. To which the other replied, O my companion, I cannot; for I am buried in a cane mat; but do thou go, and whatsoever thou hearest, do thou come and tell me,' etc. The story goes on to tell of the wandering of the soul and what he heard, etc.
"(5) There was a good man and a wicked man that died; as for the good man, 'he had no funeral rites solemnized'; but the wicked man had. Afterward, there was one who saw in his dream, the good man walking in gardens, and hard by pleasant springs; but the wicked man 'with his tongue trickling drop by drop, at the bank of a river, endeavouring to touch the water, but he could not.' (Chagigah, fol.77. Treatise on Exodus xxiii. 17).
"(6) As to 'the great gulf,' we read (Midrash [or Commentary] on Coheleth [Ecclesiastes], 103. 2), 'God hath set the one against the other (Ecc. vii. 14) that is Gehenna and Paradise. How far are they distant? A hand-breadth.' Jochanan saith, 'A wall is between.' But the Rabbis say 'They are so even with one another, that they may see out of one into the other.'
"The traditions set forth above were widely spread in many early Christian writings, showing how soon the corruption spread which led on to the Dark Ages and to all the worst errors of Romanism. The Apochryphal books (written in Greek, not in Hebrew, Cents.i. and ii. B.C.) contained the germ of this teaching. That is why the Apocrypha is valued by Traditionists, and is incorporated by the Church of Rome as an integral part of her Bible.
"The Apocrypha contains prayers for the dead; also 'the song of the three Children' (known in the Prayer Book as the Benedicite), in which 'the spirits and souls of the righteous' are called on to bless the Lord.
"The Te Deum, also, which does not date further back than the fifth century, likewise speaks of the Apostles and Prophets and Martyrs as praising God now." 4
From all this it is clear that the Lord was not giving a special revelation of His own as to the death state, but was taking the current, false teachings of the Pharisees, and using them against themselves.
The testimony of God's Word is clear concerning the state of the dead. In all cases, reference is not made merely to man's body, but to man himself. All such passages are words of faith, and are "beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act" (2 Tim.3:16,17). Since we have need of them, God has given them to us. Let us freely and unreservedly accept them, and intensely believe them. It is ideal to be like the apostle Paul, "believing all that is written, according to the law and the prophets" (Acts 24:14). There are many passages of Scripture which are concerned with the state of the dead. Here are a few examples:
"I will praise Yahweh in my life, I will make melody to my Elohim in my future. You must not trust in patrons, In a son of humanity in whom is no salvation. His spirit will fare forth, He will return to His ground, In that day all his reflections perish" (Psalm 146:2-4).
"The dead are not praising Yah, Nor any descenders to stillness" (Psa.115:17).
"Return, Yahweh! Liberate my soul! Save me on account of Your kindness! For in death there is no remembrance of You. In the unseen, who is acclaiming You?" (Psa.6:4,5).
"This evil is in all which is done under the sun, for one happening is for all. And, moreover, the heart of the sons of humanity is full of evil, and blustering is in their heart in their lives, and after them—to the dead! For anyone who is joined to all the living, forsooth, has trust, for a living cur, it is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, and for the dead there is no knowing aught" (Ecc.9:3-5a).
"All that your hand is finding to do, do it with your vigor, For no doing or devising, or knowledge, or wisdom, is in the unseen, where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).
James Coram"
http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators. I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome. I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.
HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO
In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us. Sometimes, it has surprises.
Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth. Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark. We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them. There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists. Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.
Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today: she is my own flesh and blood. I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall. God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die. God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed. Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility? Maybe death was the only risk they were taking…
Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.
Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.
Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died. However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.
Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them. All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed. The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned. Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.
Chapter 20
Abimelek takes Sarah from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death. Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk. Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.
Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.
Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.
Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.
Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell. He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact: death, not Hell.
Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.
Say! that's awesome!! :banana: why wouldn't God (His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth) mention a hell as a destination if that's what it was/is..!
I think the Greek word "hades" throws a lot of people off as the Greek philosophy was a place (or dimension?) of the dead.. but really the "place of the dead" to my way of thinking, is still "the grave". (Just like the "lower part of the earth" where Jesus "descended to".)
"Tartarus" as "darkness" and "chains of darkness" where angels left their first place went to.. and are chained in their darkness as surely they cannot now reverse their course and make their self perfect, having become imperfect, how can imperfect make itself perfect? it can't so they are chained/ prisoners of their darkness.. chained unto judgment just as the people outside of Noah's ark while he was building it were locked into destruction (to whom Jesus preached via the Spirit while the ark was being prepared).. but as you, Lazarus, said, in all of Geneisis, no mention of a 'hell' (neither eternal or temporary). GReat study!
Old Testament prophets always, i believe, thought of fiery judgment as "fiery judgment" upon earth, to the nation, or even a person.. to go down in a blaze of fire, as they say.. Usually by being overrun by their enemies.. that's why i worry about "fiery judgment" for a nation or nations who once named God and Christ but turn away.. the last straw in Old Testament days was child and babe sacrifice (old religions were sex rites, lots of unwanted babes, sacred issue). Rev 20:4b, could come like a flood.. I hope. it. is. not. any. nearer. than. I have. previously. thought. (Because I haven't warned anyone.) ...All of Earth's woe's on record forever and ever.. the smoke (memory) of it rising up, especially for an age and an age.. but surely, never forgotten. Foundation lesson being? .."lest you die.." death as
nonlife?)
..sorry for doing a sort of rant, I don't know what got into me..
marie glen aka glenda marie :smile:
"'Gehenna' is only associated with burning living souls if you believe living souls are alive when they're dead"
Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
1 Tim 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
I absolutely believe that people can be alive while they are dead.
I understand what you're saying, bro, but I don't believe they can be alive in the literal sense when they are literally dead, not metaphysically dead or figuratively dead, but really dead. I think believing folks are alive when they have died is the false doctrine of immortality of the soul, the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church, originating in the serpent's lie.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying."" (Genesis 3:4)
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 03:00:39 AM
"It is important to perceive the setting of this story concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. It is not some sudden and disconnected literal revelation concerning the state of the dead, certainly not one which is contradictory to the law and the prophets!
At this juncture, the Lord was at the summit of His condemnation of the Pharisees for invalidating the word of God by their traditions.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol.72, there is quoted from the Juchasin, fol.75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: 'This day he sits in Abraham's bosom,' i.e., the day he died.
"There is a difference here between the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds—the former says Rabbi Judah was 'carried by angels'; the latter says that he was 'placed in Abraham's bosom.'...
http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o
That's very interesting! I've always thought of it as a parable, which of course it is, but it makes even more sense to me now! thanks! :smile: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 03:38:27 AM
I understand what you're saying, bro, but I don't believe they can be alive in the literal sense when they are literally dead, not metaphysically dead or figuratively dead, but really dead. I think believing folks are alive when they have died is the false doctrine of immortality of the soul, the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church, originating in the serpent's lie.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying."" (Genesis 3:4)
I agree with that bolded part but I think that Gehenna being referential to literal death is an interpretation, but not a guarantee. There are scriptures which suggest that Gehenna and fire could represent the other type of death Jesus mentions in Luke 9:60.
Tom, if Gehenna refers solely to some future historical burning of soldiers outside Jerusalem, why did Jesus warn the people in general to beware of it.
Luke 12:4"And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after this there is nothing more for them to do." 5"But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one*."
22 But I say to you, that everyone who harbors kaas (anger) against his Ach [b'Moshiach], his chaver, shall be subject to mishpat (judgment); and whoever shall say to his Ach [b'Moshiach], Reyka! (Good for nothing!) will be subject to the Sanhedrin; and whoever shall say Shoteh! (Fool) shall be subject to Eish Gehinnom (Fire of Hell).
Mark 9:45New American Standard Bible (NASB)
45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [a- gehenna]hell, into the unquenchable fire(pyr to asbeston)
Surely there is at least metaphorical application here, but in my opinion, this speaks of olam fire or aionion pyr- not the actual historical future burning of soldiers. To confirm that from scripture in Matthew 18- another rendering of the same words of Christ
Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.(pyr to aionion).
IMO, Matthew 18:8 and Mark 9:45 stand together as evidence that Jesus uses gehenna as a metaphor for aionion pyr.
P.S. Counting duplications that represents half of the usages of gehenna in the gospels.
I think "Gehenna" will be used for burning the corpses of those who will be executed for violating the law severely, not "soldiers," as you said. I think Christ warned folks about it because it was and will be considered a very dishonorable fate for Jews to not get a proper burial instead of having their corpses burned with the city garbage of Jerusalem. How can anybody suffer after they are dead? I believe you're either literally alive or literally dead. I think Gehenna is a real geographical location that will be used to keep real literal fire burning to protect against disease. I don't see anything metaphorical about it other than Christ's references to removing certain body parts used to sin to keep from having your whole dead body cast in there, but that's just my humble opinion.
..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:
1st advent = Jesus was - passover, unleavened/pure bread, firstfruit
long 2nd advent = trumpets, day/age of atonement, tabernacles
judgment
those of 2nd resurrection arrive DOA (day of atonement)
ancient days was great day of
weeping n wailing
:smile:
I think the same goes for "the lake of fire" which is "the second death." I think the mortals in there will be literally dead, not metaphorically dead, and they will be literally brought back to life at the consummation of the eons. I think to believe somebody is not really dead after a person dies is to deny the resurrection. I believe Jesus really died and was really dead for three days before the power of the Father gave him life beyond death which we all will someday have. I think believing Jesus didn't really die is just a way to support the Trinity. I believe scripture.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.
I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."
Despite the fact that I think some folks may speak of God's vengeance in the Hebrew scriptures, I don't believe God literally needs to seek revenge because it is he who is operating all. God created evil to humble us, and God created the Adversary to try us. But we will all be free from evil at the consummation of the eons because God is love, and God will all in all.
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:48:04 AM
I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."
Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?
Thanks to all for your comments! I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better. Here's Exodus:
Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.
Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.
Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God. Again, it's just simple death.
Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians. The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them. The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell. In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.
Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped. God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses. Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned. Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction. Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead. The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.
Chapters 33 – 40
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.
Hey Tom, misread your post, saw soldiers (my eyes are not so great) but I get the drift of what you are saying.
Laz, I will respect your request and try to focus on the theme you set in your initiial post :o)
Quote from: Seth on November 14, 2014, 05:34:17 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:48:04 AM
I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."
Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?
Yes, I believe the corrective judgment will happen before "the lake of fire," and many may even be rendered unconscious by sulfur dioxide before having their bodies cast into "the lake of fire." I think it will be a literal "lake of fire" composed of the same kind of burning sulfur possibly released from the bowels of the earth similar to how it probably happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQEcqwrYxc&list=PL6NNBo_y_fjNBv0Ub0QFGiqdSvoxTUtOJ But I think either way their death will come quickly. So they won't be tormented for the eons of the eons like the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. I've thought about that too, and I think their torment could simply be being trapped with all the dead souls that they caused to die because I don't think they can experience pain without bodies of flesh. But that's just a speculation. A parent can correct a young child with just a stern word, and I think the awesome presence of "the word of God" will correct unbelievers. Some folks cry for vengeance and say that's not enough, but I believe God's judgment is effective and righteous. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html Despite all the guessing about the nature of "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire," I don't believe they are "hell" that the original post refers to, and I don't believe the purpose of "hell" is correction or vengeance because I think it is simply the unseen state of dead souls due to the original meaning of the Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen."
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Thanks to all for your comments! I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better. Here's Exodus:
Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.
Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.
Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God. Again, it's just simple death.
Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians. The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them. The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell. In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.
Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped. God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses. Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned. Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction. Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead. The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.
Chapters 33 – 40
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.
I agree that scripture only says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and I don't believe in limbo because I think it is just bogus Roman Catholic Church theology that I read is not even considered legit anymore by the church.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Thanks to all for your comments! I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better. Here's Exodus:
Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.
Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.
Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God. Again, it's just simple death.
Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians. The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them. The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell. In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.
Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped. God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses. Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned. Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction. Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead. The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.
Chapters 33 – 34
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.
Exactly Dennis !
I dont think I can be of any help so I will stay out of this , I just know the dead red sea is symbolic of the watery graves of the seas of humanity that was parted
Leviticus and Numbers you die in faith or you just die one or the other
its like out with the old nature and ways contrarily to the will of God , its just '' things and apart of all things '' hell is the grave or unseen
and into the new which is made in the will of God
Joshua 1 the man Moses died but his symbolic Law is still in effect or natural forces of the Law , body/ government of Moses that the adversity in Satan still accuses good and evil mix no mention of hell or torment and handed over the Joshua same name meaning of Jesus , this is why in Hebrews its says if Joshua /Jesus would have spoken of another day they would have received rest in the Lord and not scattered & wandering
God bless your Book and venture :flowerred:
I believe we must remember who Jesus was speaking to. He did not speak these parables to everyone, He was speaking/teaching the disciples. And should we be His disciples He is speaking/teaching to us.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
I believe this mentioning of gehenna, is for His disciples/us, that if my hand offend.....it must be cast in to the spiritual
fire-judgment=damnation[decision]gehenna and destroyed.
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
:2c: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2014, 05:24:29 PM
I believe we must remember who Jesus was speaking to. He did not speak these parables to everyone, He was speaking/teaching the disciples. And should we be His disciples He is speaking/teaching to us.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
I believe this mentioning of gehenna, is for His disciples/us, that if my hand offend.....it must be cast in to the spiritual
fire-judgment=damnation[decision]gehenna and destroyed.
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
:2c: :dsunny:
you are sooooooooo right Bro M ,
it was not till the fullness of time when God appeared in the form of a baby as the man child called Jesus
and Changed the whole course of nature and existence as we know it
the called out of the world for this ''start '' come after His own resurrection and the firstfruits of the regenerated Spirit of holiness began to move in and on the earth , new beginnings for sure, To be fruitful [Spiritually ] and multiply this one of a kind , Son of God to many sons of God though Jesus Christ or the HOLY ONE and fill the earth as it is in Heaven as He opened Heaven for all to enter that will come to Him at the Cross , From that time till He decides to make an end of all enemies of His cross and be all in all and presented to God
:flowerred:
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 14, 2014, 05:34:17 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:48:04 AM
I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."
Do you believe they will be corrected before being burned alive by fire? What does it mean that someone is corrected?
Yes, I believe the corrective judgment will happen before "the lake of fire," and many may even be rendered unconscious by sulfur dioxide before having their bodies cast into "the lake of fire." I think it will be a literal "lake of fire" composed of the same kind of burning sulfur possibly released from the bowels of the earth similar to how it probably happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQEcqwrYxc&list=PL6NNBo_y_fjNBv0Ub0QFGiqdSvoxTUtOJ But I think either way their death will come quickly. So they won't be tormented for the eons of the eons like the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. I've thought about that too, and I think their torment could simply be being trapped with all the dead souls that they caused to die because I don't think they can experience pain without bodies of flesh. But that's just a speculation. A parent can correct a young child with just a stern word, and I think the awesome presence of "the word of God" will correct unbelievers. Some folks cry for vengeance and say that's not enough, but I believe God's judgment is effective and righteous. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html Despite all the guessing about the nature of "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire," I don't believe they are "hell" that the original post refers to, and I don't believe the purpose of "hell" is correction or vengeance because I think it is simply the unseen state of dead souls due to the original meaning of the Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen."
"hell" is most often a translation of Sheol(via Hades) - altho the KJV translated sheol AND gehenna the same- hell.
It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire, since as it is written, the dead are raised, they stand before the Great White Throne and they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF.
Rv 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Thanks to all for your comments! I would like to see posts, however, more focused on my book-in-progress, and how to make it better. Here's Exodus:
Exodus, chapter 1
Lots of Hebrew male babies are killed, but there is no mention of their ultimate fate, not even to Limbo.
Chapter 2
Moses kills an Egyptian, with no mention of Hell for him, nor is Moses threatened with it for the deed.
Chapters 3 – 14
The firstborn of Egypt, and later the whole Egyptian army, are killed by God. Again, it's just simple death.
Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians. The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them. The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell. In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.
Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped. God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses. Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned. Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction. Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead. The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.
Chapters 33 – 40 There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.
quote]
In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says
He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
But still no mention of hell
[/
Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed. :Peace2: :rolllol:
"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2014, 09:54:59 PM
Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed. :Peace2: :rolllol:
"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
Is that not just God's way of pointing out the multigenerational effects of sin? Of course, from His point of view, He set things up to be so, so He takes responsibility for it. He surely does not deliberately smite four or five generations, all the while watching for any other sins He can smite all over for...on and on. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 14, 2014, 09:03:16 PM
In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says
He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
But still no mention of hell
Nice catch, thanks!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 15, 2014, 02:44:20 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2014, 09:54:59 PM
Daj, that's just about what William Munny said in the "Unforgiven" when his friend was killed. :Peace2: :rolllol:
"also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
Is that not just God's way of pointing out the multigenerational effects of sin? Of course, from His point of view, He set things up to be so, so He takes responsibility for it. He surely does not deliberately smite four or five generations, all the while watching for any other sins He can smite all over for...on and on. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
I apologize....it was meant as a bit of humor. :sigh:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 15, 2014, 02:46:20 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 14, 2014, 09:03:16 PM
In Chapter 33 God wants to get his point across about punishing the guilty he says
He will punish not only the guilty people, but also their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, and their great-great-grandchildren."
But still no mention of hell
Nice catch, thanks!
[/quote
Not a real catch, just a literal read of the Bible and what it reads.
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"
We may be having a quibble due to misunderstanding each other. This is how I see it.
At the 2nd resurrection, there is the Great White Throne. That is where the "books" are opened(Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel). Then there is the Lake of Fire, for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book. That is their judgment/correction.
They exit the LOF into the ALL IN ALL.
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
As another witness, the Aramaic uses the term 'Tahhtayata' meaning 'the deep places'. This Aramaic word has nothing to do with the mythical Greek 'Tartarus'. It is referring to their lowered state, a state of darkness, which chains them (blinds them) from the high places they once inhabited, until the day they are judged.
Tartarus, the abyss, the pit.
As I see it, Another category of the dead- a special chamber for those who once had the light in sufficient measure to be priests/servants/messengers of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"- and returned to "elementary principles", or legalism, or immorality - like dogs to vomit.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 09:38:21 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"
We may be having a quibble due to misunderstanding each other. This is how I see it.
At the 2nd resurrection, there is the Great White Throne. That is where the "books" are opened(Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel). Then there is the Lake of Fire, for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book. That is their judgment/correction.
They exit the LOF into the ALL IN ALL.
I understand what you're saying, but I think dead souls know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). That's why I think unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." Then they will be vivified when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26) at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). We have a difference of opinion about the function of "the lake of fire." You seem to think somehow the dead in it will be corrected, but I think they will have been corrected before they are cast into it. I think only the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be alive to be tormented in "the lake of fire" because they are supernatural creatures not subject to death (Revelation 20:10). I don't think there is a reason to quibble or squabble about the "judgment/correction" though. I think we'll see what happens when the time comes.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 10:15:05 AM
Tartarus, the abyss, the pit.
As I see it, Another category of the dead- a special chamber for those who once had the light in sufficient measure to be priests/servants/messengers of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"- and returned to "elementary principles", or legalism, or immorality - like dogs to vomit.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
I think the "sinning messengers" in Tartarus are spirits not dead souls (2 Peter 2:4).
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
As another witness, the Aramaic uses the term 'Tahhtayata' meaning 'the deep places'. This Aramaic word has nothing to do with the mythical Greek 'Tartarus'. It is referring to their lowered state, a state of darkness, which chains them (blinds them) from the high places they once inhabited, until the day they are judged.
I agree with your Aramaic interpretation that Tartarus is darkness for the spirits that are "kept for chastening judging" (2 Peter 2:4). I also think Tartarus and hades are both words used to help communicate ideas to Greek speaking folks that they would be familiar with but not intended to promote Greek mythology.
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
I understand what you're saying, and I realized that's why you said it when I read it. I also think it was good to say that because it seems some folks get confused by those words in scripture that have been used in Greek mythology. I think it's good to have an Aramaic perspective of scripture, but I also think Greek was chosen to reach the nations who didn't understand Aramaic.
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
Absolutely! I really do not believe Peter used the word, my :2c: is translators. :sigh:
Quote from: Tom on November 15, 2014, 03:23:49 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
As another witness, the Aramaic uses the term 'Tahhtayata' meaning 'the deep places'. This Aramaic word has nothing to do with the mythical Greek 'Tartarus'. It is referring to their lowered state, a state of darkness, which chains them (blinds them) from the high places they once inhabited, until the day they are judged.
I agree with your Aramaic interpretation that Tartarus is darkness for the spirits that are "kept for chastening judging" (2 Peter 2:4). I also think Tartarus and hades are both words used to help communicate ideas to Greek speaking folks that they would be familiar with but not intended to promote Greek mythology.
I totally agree with the both of you in Knowing this part
and the reason Jesus come to bring fire on the earth in Luke 12 ;49 was to me Dan 7 the fiery stream coming out of the Throne of Gods law same as Rev 14 both describing the lake of Fire or fiery stream issue , flood the earth and before Him those 4 beasts kingdoms that are apart of the ONE BEAST SATAN THE DRAGON /SERPENT OF OLD that wisdom that is earthly sensual and devilish opposing Gods wisdom that is above .
no one would have power to do anything unless it was given from above .
the division Jesus come was to separate the LAWS one being of grace ,full of mercy with the other law in effect by force judgment without mercy
to divide and separate those still under law of Moses [correction and judgment ]
till they come to Christ or Christ comes to them , they are spirits in prison held under the law of good and evil
this is why Satan the opposing force/spirit of that law of sin and death was made in Jude arguing over the Body of Moses and it would be the Lord Jesus Himself that would rebuke the accusing spirit [spirits]
for Jesus Christ become the Ruler over the dead and living , so Satan the opposing force could not touch them any longer
and the fire of cleansing them was considered correction
when we look at whom was thrown in the lake of Fire first its the false prophet and beast already are in , this being the liars speaking against Gods will
and the carnal natures of anyone opposing the will of God beasts of the earth and seas of humanity , NOT Satan yet he is allowed to roam the earth till the time appointed By God to have an end
I know this will not make any sense to some , and maybe just for me now , but it blessed me so much to discover it I could not help but try and explain some of this separation of fire and correction , it for our own good and never a bad thing
God does everything to teach us His righteousness in the earth now as it is in heaven always
Indeed he does Rose :dsunny:
Interesting context.
1 There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep.
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
Specific punishment for specific sin is reasonably inferred here in the context. I think it is more than a general reference to Sheol.
Personally I believe from the context this is referring to angels who "left their proper domain"(jude 6).
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
Being angels they did not die, and perhaps are incarcerated in a different holding facility.
IMO
God has always the very best for each individual at every point of time.
If we are willfully ignorant whatever is happening to us is the
very best God has for us at that point and time.
Being thrown into the lake of Fire is the very best God
has at that point in time for that individual.
Out of the billions of possibilities for each person at any point in time
God has picked the best for that individual.
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
I seriously doubt that a Greek person speaking Greek would separate out the mythology. I think the effect is the opposite and history has proved that out.
The whole doctrine of eternal torment in "Hades" for instance, is out of the Greek AND ROMAN mythologies. Inferno was the Roman Hades in the Latin Vulgate. The word Hell wasnt used until the 14/1500s. The Latin Vulgate was the reigning version among Catholics for a millenia. The people did not have the scriptures at all. Thats why the Reformation was concurrent with the advent of the printing press.
ET doctrine has its origins in Greek and Roman myths, and the translations, using those mythological names, were done that way on purpose(imo) to promote those false doctrines of the reigning orthodoxies of the time. Same thing with the King James Version. It was eternal torment in Hades(Greek) but also
the doctrine was eternal torment in Inferno(Latin for Hades).
Quote from: dajomaco on November 15, 2014, 07:14:14 PM
IMO
God has always the very best for each individual at every point of time.
If we are willfully ignorant whatever is happening to us is the
very best God has for us at that point and time.
Being thrown into the lake of Fire is the very best God
has at that point in time for that individual.
Out of the billions of possibilities for each person at any point in time
God has picked the best for that individual.
I agree whole hardheartedly Bro D
each in the order God deals with mankind , not as a whole
because the whole is being dealt with
but comes individually as the judgments in ones favor or grace given to glorify God your torment will not be remembered for the glory that is given you and the will of God is being done in and though Jesus Christ works of the Father
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
I seriously doubt that a Greek person speaking Greek would separate out the mythology. I think the effect is the opposite and history has proved that out.
The whole doctrine of eternal torment in "Hades" for instance, is out of the Greek AND ROMAN mythologies. Inferno was the Roman Hades in the Latin Vulgate. The word Hell wasnt used until the 14/1500s. The Latin Vulgate was the reigning version among Catholics for a millenia. The people did not have the scriptures at all. Thats why the Reformation was concurrent with the advent of the printing press.
ET doctrine has its origins in Greek and Roman myths, and the translations, using those mythological names, were done that way on purpose(imo) to promote those false doctrines of the reigning orthodoxies of the time. Same thing with the King James Version. It was eternal torment in Hades(Greek) but also
the doctrine was eternal torment in Inferno(Latin for Hades).
Yes till there sins reach heaven Rev 18 ...4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6"Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her....
for me that is the continual waxing worse and worse and we sure do see the results of it thousands of churches with pushing the torment of fire for always doctrine
and the HolY SPIRIT teacher is what makes us know the difference
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Hinnom
(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, (1 Kings 11:7) whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6) and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, (2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chronicles 34:4,5) from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley --Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom)--to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. (Matthew 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)
It seems to me Jesus used Gehenna in the same way Peter used tartarus (greek mythology). Though Gehenna was a real place used for burning garbage it had earlier been used for pagan religious reasons. In Jesus time it had come to denote the place of eternal torment (jewish mythology).
This one verse cannot be said enough for our understanding......
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I seriously doubt that a Greek person speaking Greek would separate out the mythology. I think the effect is the opposite and history has proved that out.
I am just not as familiar with the Greek understandings as I am with the Semitic, so it was just my educated guess, since the Greek versions do use the words Hades and Tartarus. The reasoning I had was (and this of course is just a guess) that since those words are in the Greek versions, is it possible they used them without the mythological overtones?
Like today, in English when someone describes something that could have happened to someone but did not, they say such a person was 'fortunate'. And then the opposite word 'unfortunate' is also very common, and yet in both instances, those who use the term do not think in terms of the myth behind the word, of Fortunas, the goddess of fortune. I simply do not know and for those who do not accept a semitic original, I am not sure how they reason on the validity of those words otherwise. I hope I am not straying too far from the original posting.
Quote from: bushy on November 15, 2014, 08:33:37 PM
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Hinnom
(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, (1 Kings 11:7) whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6) and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, (2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chronicles 34:4,5) from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley --Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom)--to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. (Matthew 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)
It seems to me Jesus used Gehenna in the same way Peter used tartarus (greek mythology). Though Gehenna was a real place used for burning garbage it had earlier been used for pagan religious reasons. In Jesus time it had come to denote the place of eternal torment (jewish mythology).
It appears as though in this dictionary, there is a mixing of Greek thinking imposed on what Yeshua spoke of. The thinking of the Jews who went into captivity did later involve into incorporating such ideas as belonging for Zorastrianism, for example. I personally reject such thoughts, even though we can see some of them reflected in later Jewish writings. If we simply stick to the historical accounting of the valley of the sons of Hinnom, I see that place used by Yeshua to describe a judgment of his people, (to die and not be properly buried was a very shameful thing) and having nothing to do with any idea of torment that never ended.
Amen, brother.
Quote from: bushy on November 15, 2014, 08:33:37 PM
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Hinnom
(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, (1 Kings 11:7) whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6) and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, (2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chronicles 34:4,5) from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley --Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom)--to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. (Matthew 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)
It seems to me Jesus used Gehenna in the same way Peter used tartarus (greek mythology). Though Gehenna was a real place used for burning garbage it had earlier been used for pagan religious reasons. In Jesus time it had come to denote the place of eternal torment (jewish mythology).
I agree with all the history of Gehenna that I have also read in other places, but, when he gets to his conclusion of it being later considered "the place of eternal torment" by the Jews, I think that is bogus church theology. I have said before, and I agree with what Ronen said, that Gehenna was considered by the Jews to be a dishonorable way to have their bodies disposed of by being burned with the city garbage of Jerusalem rather than getting a proper burial. I'm not a student of Semitic language or custom, but what I've read in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures indicates to me that death is the result of sin not "eternal torment." That is false doctrine from Rome used to control people with fear and is only associated with scripture due to forgery in translation perpetrated to deceive those who read the adulterated versions.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
I seriously doubt that a Greek person speaking Greek would separate out the mythology. I think the effect is the opposite and history has proved that out.
The whole doctrine of eternal torment in "Hades" for instance, is out of the Greek AND ROMAN mythologies. Inferno was the Roman Hades in the Latin Vulgate. The word Hell wasnt used until the 14/1500s. The Latin Vulgate was the reigning version among Catholics for a millenia. The people did not have the scriptures at all. Thats why the Reformation was concurrent with the advent of the printing press.
ET doctrine has its origins in Greek and Roman myths, and the translations, using those mythological names, were done that way on purpose(imo) to promote those false doctrines of the reigning orthodoxies of the time. Same thing with the King James Version. It was eternal torment in Hades(Greek) but also
the doctrine was eternal torment in Inferno(Latin for Hades).
I don't think the authors of the Greek scriptures were teaching Greek mythology. Being an English speaking person who is familiar with the English word "embers," which the King James Version has translated "coals," and you've probably barbecued with "embers," do you think it would be a good idea to dump those "embers" on the heads of folks who are enjoying your barbecue?
"If your enemy should be hungering, give him the morsel; if he should be thirsting, give him to drink, for in doing this you will be heaping embers of fire on his head." (Romans 12:20)
I heard a story about some missionaries who had to prevent some natives from doing that because they had interpreted those words of our language literally. That might seem strange to us, but that's because we have a different understanding of our language than those folks did. I think language can be either literal or figurative, and it's up to us to interpret it even if it contains certain mythological aspects. Maybe the example I gave isn't the best one, but I think the point is that maybe "hades" and "tartaroo" were used to help Greek speaking folks understand the afterlife and the bondage of darkness for some spirits. Paul didn't use either word in his writings, but he did warn against "myths," which the King James Version translates as "fables" (1 Timothy 1:4,4:7; 2 Timothy 4:4; Titus 1:14). I think the idea that "Gehenna," the city dump of Jerusalem, will be used for "eternal torment" is a dark comedy/English myth about dead folks being alive to be burned alive forever, thanks to those folks responsible for forgery in the translation of scripture, and the only "torment" would be if they didn't keep the fire burning because then the rotting corpses and garbage would stink up the city really bad. I read that the idea of the common misconception of "hell" goes back even beyond "Greek and Roman myths," as you say, to Egypt, but I think the intentional confusion of "Gehenna" with "hell" in the popular English versions of scripture is thanks to the twelve places it is done in the King James Version (Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). I know some folks prefer to think of "Gehenna" figuratively, but I think it is exactly what I think Jews thought it was when they heard about it and knew its history and Isaiah's prophecy.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
I know that some folks think somehow dead folks will be alive to be "tormented" in "the Gehenna of fire" or for "chastening" in "the second death-the lake of fire," but I prefer to think about death like I think it is described in scripture.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
I realize we have varying perspectives on this site, and I'm not trying to condemn anybody else's. I'm just sharing my humble opinion.
I think don't think the Greek translators were teaching mythology. I think they were subject to Greek philosophy and culture and it came through their theology into the translation. But really, the Latin mythology is the most potent one in regards to contemporary "hell" and eternal torment.
Hades was a place of darkness.
Inferno was a place of active torments and flames of agony.
We look to the Greek translations because we feel that we can gain an insight passing through the prejudices and errors of the KJV. We don't pay much attention to the Latin Vulgate, because most of us have protestant backgrounds, but most of the pervasive theology of today may have been Greek in origin- but it was LATIN in development and enforcement upon the world.
Thats why i teach that we have to reach back into Hebrew thought in order to pass through the prejudices and errors of the Greeks, and even moreso, the Romans, because while the prevailing common language of translation may be Greek, the prevailing theology is Roman/Latin.
The Vulgate is a late fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible that became, during the 16th century, the Catholic Church's officially promulgated Latin version of the Bible.
The translation was largely the work of St. Jerome, who, in 382, was commissioned by Pope Damasus I to revise the Vetus Latina ("Old Latin") collection of Biblical texts in Latin then in use by the Church. Once published, it was widely adopted and eventually eclipsed the Vetus Latina and, by the 13th century, was known as the "versio vulgata" (the "version commonly-used") or, more simply, in Latin as vulgata or in Greek as βουλγάτα ("Vulgate").
It was made the Catholic Church's official Latin Bible as a consequence of the Council of Trent
I agree. I think Rome ruined Christianity by filtering everything through its doctrine to the point that it is so distorted that I think Paul would be amazed to see what's up. He'd probably pick up where he left off in Galatians, start ranting some more, and toss another anathema at the church.
Don't we all on this forum know what seems to be a reproving of what we all have learned to be truths? I mean is there anyone here, with all the debate of proof, that can change the mind of all those who don't know and are are not here on the forum to hear and read? If I am out of line, I am sorry. :HeartThrob:
As for "Heaven yes," I have not found much about heaven in my Bible. Other than the same source that gives us information about hell, which we know is not, what does your Bible tell you...you... as you read about heaven? I am just asking. :HeartThrob:
"The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:47)
John 6:51
51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 16, 2014, 03:13:45 AM
Don't we all on this forum know what seems to be a reproving of what we all have learned to be truths? I mean is there anyone here, with all the debate of proof, that can change the mind of all those who don't know and are are not here on the forum to hear and read? If I am out of line, I am sorry. :HeartThrob:
As for "Heaven yes," I have not found much about heaven in my Bible. Other than the same source that gives us information about hell, which we know is not, what does your Bible tell you...you... as you read about heaven? I am just asking. :HeartThrob:
Micah, if you are referring to the usual harp-on-a-cloud Heaven, then no, there is not much about that in the Bible.
Quote from: Tom on November 16, 2014, 12:59:45 AM
I agree. I think Rome ruined Christianity by filtering everything through its doctrine to the point that it is so distorted that I think Paul would be amazed to see what's up. He'd probably pick up where he left off in Galatians, start ranting some more, and toss another anathema at the church.
Perhaps Rome ruined Christianity. But I would suggest that it was pre-destined to be that way. It was necessary for God's purpose to be served. Paul said all that needed to be said for the completion of the scriptures to this point in time IMO, but I do understand where you are coming from in saying that.
:2c:
I agree. All is out of God, and God is operating all. (Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11) I think the church's false doctrine is the work of the Adversary competing with and masquerading as the "ecclesia," "the body of Christ," but eventually the truth will be revealed to all.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Tom on November 16, 2014, 05:38:21 PM
I agree. All is out of God, and God is operating all. (Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11) I think the church's false doctrine is the work of the Adversary competing with and masquerading as the "ecclesia," "the body of Christ," but eventually the truth will be revealed to all.
Yes, just like in the story of Cinder-Ella, the daughters of the evil stepmother will try to fit the glass slipper and be the Bride, but they will fail. The true Bride will come forth, and when she does, all will realise that they should have known it all along...in the meantime, Ella has forgotten that she was of noble birth.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
:dsunny: Nice Post
There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.
IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
:goodpost: both say so much and AMEN!!! :boyheart:
So many cannot understand this beautiful part of Gods plan :thumbsup:
satan is last for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary part of Gods plan
all things work together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose :flowerred:
keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the hard parts the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit and fire sent for the Glory of God
to be revealed unto us , each and every one
Quote from: marie glen on November 14, 2014, 04:29:43 AM
..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:
Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 17, 2014, 07:17:01 PM
:dsunny: Nice Post
There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.
IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.
Amen BRO D!
it is !! THE THING WITH any one of us is '' knowing '' verses'' not knowing '' and all is for His glory
knowing this that as Babylon falls away the falling together of every Word of GOD is fulfilled within our walls of salvation Christ being built up within each and everyone of us
James 1
To ·all of God's people [L the twelve tribes; C an allusion to the twelve tribes of Israel; referring either to Jewish Christians or all believers as the new covenant people of God] ·who are scattered everywhere in the world [L in the Diaspora/Dispersion; C a reference to the scattering of the Jews during the Babylonian captivity, now applied to the church]: Greetings.
Faith and Wisdom
2 My brothers and sisters [C fellow believers], when you have many kinds of ·troubles [trials; testing], ·you should be full of joy [L consider it all/pure joy], 3 be
cause you know that these troubles test your faith, and this will give you ·patience [perserverance; endurance]. 4
[L And] Let your ·patience [perserverance; endurance] ·show itself perfectly in what you do [have its full effect; finish its work]. Then you will be ·perfect and complete [mature and whole; or completely mature] and will ·have everything you need [L lack nothing]. 5 But if any of you ·needs [lacks] wisdom, you should ask God for it [Prov. 2:6]
. He is generous to everyone and will give you wisdom ·without criticizing you [without finding fault; ungrudgingly; Matt. 7:7].
6 But when you ask God, you must ·believe [ask with faith] and not doubt. Anyone who doubts is like a wave in the sea, ·blown up and down [driven and tossed] by the wind. [L For] Such doubters are ·thinking two different things at the same time [L double-minded], and they ·cannot decide about anything they do [L are unstable in all they do]. They should not ·think [expect] they will receive anything from the Lord. the trouble of Babylon falling away is painful and the Building up of the Temple of God is glorious !!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators. I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome. I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.
HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO
In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us. Sometimes, it has surprises.
Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth. Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark. We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them. There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists. Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.
Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today: she is my own flesh and blood. I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall. God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die. God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed. Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility? Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...
Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.
Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.
Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died. However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.
Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them. All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed. The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned. Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.
Chapter 20
Abimelek takes Sarah from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death. Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk. Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.
Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.
Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.
Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.
Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell. He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact: death, not Hell.
Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.
Ronny to Lazarus:
An interesting thing to me,is that in scripture we're told the following. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men." John 1:1,4 OK,what I would ask of a person who still believes in a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment,is just where in the scripture are we given the account of where,when and how,He created that? Now in all of my time in a local church,I don't think I ever even thought of that! But instead,I simply believed local church leaders,who taught me there was a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. For the way I was taught there,if our local church leaders taught such,then it had to be of God and true beyond question. And such is a religious tenet of some men;but not of God.
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 07:22:51 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 14, 2014, 04:29:43 AM
..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:
Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.
I love it that you both here Bro Ronnie and Marie
I do read many posts
and are blesed by those willing to share their personal growth in truth and grace
I believe the building up of Jesus Christ this Mountain in the earth is by His SPIRIT OF HOLINESS and all will come and worship HIM
and as with growing pains the tearing down of Babylon is also essential in everyone of us as well
we get to experience both the chastening of the Lord and seeing His glory revealed in the earth as it is in heaven
Time is not a thing God concerns Himself with as us humans do
God made 3 ages and stages for us to learn from
being what was and what is and what is to come
We only Know what we know by His mercy and giving to us by His own Spirit and truth , those are what we have to praise God with always
Love to all , its the greatest gift of God we can ever possess in our hearts that being Jesus Christ , I now understand that Jesus is the reward !
I have said it for years about this fact but has just now becoming a reality :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 17, 2014, 07:17:01 PM
:dsunny: Nice Post
There is no plan A or Plan B with God .
What other God's plan are you going to choose ? there is only one God.
IMO The Lake of Fire is not plan B.
The Lake of Fire is part of Gods perfect plan for me.
I may or may not be thrown into it; but my knowledge of it is part of his plan.
I agree that God doesn't have or need a plan B because he is operating all according to his will (Ephesians 1:11), but, if you're a believer, I don't think you need to be concerned with being thrown into the lake of fire because it's the second death and you'll have eonian life in Christ.
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:43:58 AM
I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.
Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)
And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:48:04 AM
I think God's judgments are always corrective not vindictive. That's why I think the judgment before the great white throne will be the correction for those who will be dead in "the lake of fire" "knowing nothing."
Ronny to Tom:
Amen! God's judgements,are always for the persons own good!
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:59:37 AM
Despite the fact that I think some folks may speak of God's vengeance in the Hebrew scriptures, I don't believe God literally needs to seek revenge because it is he who is operating all. God created evil to humble us, and God created the Adversary to try us. But we will all be free from evil at the consummation of the eons because God is love, and God will all in all.
Ronny to Tom:
Amen and amen! :-)
Quote from: dajomaco on November 15, 2014, 07:14:14 PM
IMO
God has always the very best for each individual at every point of time.
If we are willfully ignorant whatever is happening to us is the
very best God has for us at that point and time.
Being thrown into the lake of Fire is the very best God
has at that point in time for that individual.
Out of the billions of possibilities for each person at any point in time
God has picked the best for that individual.
Ronny to Dajomaco:
Amen! :-)
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:43:58 AM
I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.
Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)
And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)
I agree. We all need guidance and correction, and everything God does is for our good. I believe even evil serves a purpose for ultimate good, and it will eventually be nullified because it will no longer be necessary when God is all in all.
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
Rosered:
:goodpost: both say so much and AMEN!!! :boyheart:
So many cannot understand this beautiful part of Gods plan :thumbsup:
satan is last for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary part of Gods plan
all things work together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose :flowerred:
keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the hard parts the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit and fire sent for the Glory of God
to be revealed unto us , each and every one
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)
And Rosered,I remember 19 years ago now,how God so used that scripture to help me! :-) I had been taught one thing by some local church elders and had believed such,since I was 12 years old. So,I believed something they taught me about myself,for 28 years. Then God brought some other Christians into my life,that made me wonder if what I'd been taught,was true or not? And one Christian preacher in particular,God had brought him into my life,to show me that if I didn't understand a matter and or wasn't sure,I was simply to ask God. Ask God to show me. Ask God to guide me and show me,as I read and studied on some scriptures. And in my 40th year,I had done that on one subject,for around 6 weeks. My,I so wanted to understand and know one thing and whether it was true or not. I wanted to know for sure and therefore,I wanted to know from God and God alone. So,I was reading the scriptures and asking God to guide and show me. And I was seeing somethings;but after maybe 6 weeks,I still didn't have a definate answer. And one night I was reading scripture and despaired of ever finding out the truth of this particular matter. And when I really despaired,I began to have some thoughts of suicide. I was sitting at the kitchen table and thought about the rifle,that was sitting over in the corner of the room. And just as soon as I had that thought,God put this scripture in my mind! :-) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 And just as soon as God did that for me,I simply stopped and asked/prayed to God. Asking God,if something I had been taught to believe,was true or not? If some specific part of me,was sinful or not? And God simply answered my prayer and said no. And I can't explain how I heard that;but hear it I did and I knew my answer was from God. :-) Well,right at first I couldn't believe such,so I prayed the 2nd time,asking God the same again. And in like manner,God simply replied to my prayer and gave me the same answer again! :-) So what I had to know,was desperate to know and what I wanted to know and that directly from God,that is exactly what God gave to me and did for me. :-) Just shaking my head in wonder,at the ways God works and the love of God! :-)
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
Rosered:
:goodpost: both say so much and AMEN!!! :boyheart:
So many cannot understand this beautiful part of Gods plan :thumbsup:
satan is last for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary part of Gods plan
all things work together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose :flowerred:
keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the hard parts the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit and fire sent for the Glory of God
to be revealed unto us , each and every one
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)
And Rosered,I remember 19 years ago now,how God so used that scripture to help me! :-) I had been taught one thing by some local church elders and had believed such,since I was 12 years old. So,I believed something they taught me about myself,for 28 years. Then God brought some other Christians into my life,that made me wonder if what I'd been taught,was true or not? And one Christian preacher in particular,God had brought him into my life,to show me that if I didn't understand a matter and or wasn't sure,I was simply to ask God. Ask God to show me. Ask God to guide me and show me,as I read and studied on some scriptures. And in my 40th year,I had done that on one subject,for around 6 weeks. My,I so wanted to understand and know one thing and whether it was true or not. I wanted to know for sure and therefore,I wanted to know from God and God alone. So,I was reading the scriptures and asking God to guide and show me. And I was seeing somethings;but after maybe 6 weeks,I still didn't have a definate answer. And one night I was reading scripture and despaired of ever finding out the truth of this particular matter. And when I really despaired,I began to have some thoughts of suicide. I was sitting at the kitchen table and thought about the rifle,that was sitting over in the corner of the room. And just as soon as I had that thought,God put this scripture in my mind! :-) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 And just as soon as God did that for me,I simply stopped and asked/prayed to God. Asking God,if something I had been taught to believe,was true or not? If some specific part of me,was sinful or not? And God simply answered my prayer and said no. And I can't explain how I heard that;but hear it I did and I knew my answer was from God. :-) Well,right at first I couldn't believe such,so I prayed the 2nd time,asking God the same again. And in like manner,God simply replied to my prayer and gave me the same answer again! :-) So what I had to know,was desperate to know and what I wanted to know and that directly from God,that is exactly what God gave to me and did for me. :-) Just shaking my head in wonder,at the ways God works and the love of God! :-)
Thanks Bro Ronnie
that is just so precious !! wow , I understand what you mean when come to that place,,, where we all ,'' but give up everything !!''
To Know God and His Will
I believe this is exactly how all of us learn from asking God for His Wisdom over matters and opening the scriptures up
God really does Love us , we have such a hard time knowing that simple yet beautiful and profound part
I know this time of year we have little birds struggling to survive the harsh winters , we got a doozy last night
and when you feed them all , its fun to watch , but this one little bird flew up on the window sill as to not fear , but be bold and trust and just do a little dance on the sill and my heart swelled for all the little birds because of that one and as I watched , I thought God because OF JESUS CHRIST
coming as the one and you loving ALL because of your ONE OF A KIND SON ! Showing mercy though the suffering of all your kind hand feeds us everyone I loved that lesson , I knew Gods Love was more precious than any thing we could ever imagine !!
He does this often in things and ways that teach us as well, His mercy and loving kindness Jesus prays for all the intercessor though His Spirit for all to survive and live even in harsh times
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 07:19:57 AM
Hey Tom, misread your post, saw soldiers (my eyes are not so great) but I get the drift of what you are saying.
Laz, I will respect your request and try to focus on the theme you set in your initiial post :o)
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Don't know if this would help you or not;but at least the local Walmart I shop at,it has good reading glasses,3 pair for less than $4! :-)
And you probably already know the following about your computer;but I just discovered this part yesterday! (ha) But I was on one webpage and there was told that if I needed to make the print bigger,I just needed to hold down on the keyboard CTRL button and then press the + button. My,I was shocked,when I kept doing that,at how large it could make the print! :-) But then,I didn't know how to make the huge print,go back to smaller print?! :-( LoL Finally dawned on me,to just hold down the CTRL button,while pushing down on the - button! (ha) Sure enough, the print went back to what it had been and even smaller! (ha) Like I say,you and others here,probably already know about that on your computers;but I'm still learning,many of these really good keyboard tricks! :-)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 16, 2014, 04:21:36 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 16, 2014, 03:13:45 AM
Micah:
Don't we all on this forum know what seems to be a reproving of what we all have learned to be truths? I mean is there anyone here, with all the debate of proof, that can change the mind of all those who don't know and are are not here on the forum to hear and read? If I am out of line, I am sorry. :HeartThrob:
As for "Heaven yes," I have not found much about heaven in my Bible. Other than the same source that gives us information about hell, which we know is not, what does your Bible tell you...you... as you read about heaven? I am just asking. :HeartThrob:
Lazarus to Micah:
Micah, if you are referring to the usual harp-on-a-cloud Heaven, then no, there is not much about that in the Bible.
Ronny to Micah:
Micah,just thinking about guys down my way, here in Texas and I think most would prefer a guitar in heaven,as opposed to a harp! :-) LoL
Sometimes, you gots to wonder about that...
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Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:38:37 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 07:22:51 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 14, 2014, 04:29:43 AM
..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:
Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.
Rosered to Marie and Ronny:
I love it that you both here Bro Ronnie and Marie
I do read many posts
and are blesed by those willing to share their personal growth in truth and grace
I believe the building up of Jesus Christ this Mountain in the earth is by His SPIRIT OF HOLINESS and all will come and worship HIM
and as with growing pains the tearing down of Babylon is also essential in everyone of us as well
we get to experience both the chastening of the Lord and seeing His glory revealed in the earth as it is in heaven
Time is not a thing God concerns Himself with as us humans do
God made 3 ages and stages for us to learn from
being what was and what is and what is to come
We only Know what we know by His mercy and giving to us by His own Spirit and truth , those are what we have to praise God with always
Love to all , its the greatest gift of God we can ever possess in our hearts that being Jesus Christ , I now understand that Jesus is the reward !
I have said it for years about thzis fact but has just now becoming a reality :HeartThrob:
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen Rosered and thank you too, :-) for it is a blessing from God to me,for me to be here too, with you folks! :-) And as far as I now know,probably 99.9% of my family,is still either Calvinist or Arminian/free will in belief. So not many people here,that I can have a cival discusssion with,when it comes to UR. Though my oldest Sis,who I now live with,she did say that she much prefers my way of believing now,to one of our older brothers still believing Calvinism. :-) And of course,she also knows,that was the way I was brought up in the local church to believe. So,she seems to much prefer the way I believe some things now. :-) And that so,despite her going to an Arminian/free will type church and now believing that way.
And your post also reminded me,of something very important! :-) Awhile back, one of my nephews and his wife,they took me to the local hospital emergency room. That,was when I was real sick and itching terribly bad at times! :-( But this young lady,she works for some medical people,in our local town,she knew the doctor who would be working the emergency room that night and thought she could easily get me in to see him. That didn't work out and we stayed in the emergency room waiting room for a while after 9pm and then they put me in an observation room till 1am in the night. Never got to see a doctor and we gave up and came on home. But while there,I got to do a good bit of talking,with that nephew and his wife. :-) Among other things,I got to tell them about the tentmaker.org webpages! :-) And how people here believe and that I also now believe,that before all is said and done,God will save everyone,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-) Well lo and behold,my nephew's wife told me,she also sees it that way! :-) My,that was a nice thing to know and to hear! :-) For before that,there was no one in my family,who saw these things,as I now do and have, for about 4 and 1/2 years now.
Quote from: Tom on November 17, 2014, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:43:58 AM
I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.
Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)
And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)
Tom to Ronny:
I agree. We all need guidance and correction, and everything God does is for our good. I believe even evil serves a purpose for ultimate good, and it will eventually be nullified because it will no longer be necessary when God is all in all.
Ronny to Tom:
Amen! :-)
And Tom,one thing I've sure seen in my life at times,is evil come my way. This at times,for years on end and my being taught in church,as a child,that it was my fault. So not really evil,as I was taught to see it;but something I thought,was taught to think/believe,that I deserved. And when God showed me better,for awhile there,I got very mad and bitter,at some people. But that didn't help me any. But God brought good out of this evil. It meant when I got older,I was able to help some younger people,who were still going through some things,of a similar nature.
I still wonder some though,about somethings. I can understand some of my early local church leaders,being ignorant and misinformed about somethings. For they taught me to believe some wrong things,just as they had been taught. But what got to me more,was some of these people at least,being Calvinist in belief, just as I once was and yet some had this selfrighteous,looking down on some other people attitude. This better than you,holier than thou zsort of way,of looking down on some people. And my question for a long time,was how can a person have that way of thinking and acting and be a Calvinist in belief? It makes no sense. For if a person is truly Calvinist in belief,then they have not one thing to brag about and not one right to look down on anyone. Yet in my years as a Calvinistic type believer,I certainly saw some people of the same belief,who selfrighteous and much looked down on some other people. And they taught me to be the same and I was the same,in a good many ways,until God knocked such out of me! (ha)
Makes me wonder now,was John Calvin a man who had humility and caring for people or not? I've never read much about the man;but have heard that he had one or more of his enemies,put to death. Well,there's no love,humility or caring in that. And such,is certainly not of God/Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 18, 2014, 01:09:57 AM
Sometimes, you gots to wonder about that...
Ronny to Lazarus:
Good one! :-) And BTW,I can really like some accordion music! :-) Like the polka and some southern Louisiana type playing on such! :-) LoL
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
Rosered:
:goodpost: both say so much and AMEN!!! :boyheart:
So many cannot understand this beautiful part of Gods plan :thumbsup:
satan is last for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary part of Gods plan
all things work together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose :flowerred:
keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the hard parts the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit and fire sent for the Glory of God
to be revealed unto us , each and every one
Ronny to Rosered:
Just thought of something else! :-) And I need to get this part written out. But I've always said I want my funeral to be much,like a congregational singing! :-) And right off of the bat,I can think of 3 songs,that I want the whole congregation to sing. Amazing Grace,How Great Thou Art and The Love of God! :-) And I know some scriptures too,that I would want to be read at my funeral. Those like,in Adam all die,in Jesus Christ all shall be made alive! :-)
Well,years ago now,an aunt of mine gave me this idea. For,for her funeral, beforehand she wrote out exactly what songs she wanted sung and what scriptures she wanted read. I like that,I really like that idea. :-)
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:38:37 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 07:22:51 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 14, 2014, 04:29:43 AM
..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:
Ronny to Marie Glenn:
I agree,as best I see it now. For in this age,the ones of us that God has chosen,God has used whatever He knew it would take,to bring us to repentance towards God and on to faith,in Jesus Christ. First,there was God simply letting me know,that I was lost-that I was not in a right relationship with God. Then there was the pain I experienced,as God let me see that I was not good and let me see my sinful selfrighteousness. And God let me compare that of myself,to God and God's holiness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance towards God :-) and it was painful to go through! But it was just what I needed and God knew that and God lovingly provided for me,just that which I needed! :-) And when I had repented towards God, agreed with God,the love of God began pouring out upon me and God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was on the cross for me,there in my place,there taking my sins upon himself. :-) And in that,God proved to me,God's love for me! :-) Now the part where God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and let me compare that to God and God's holiness,that was very painful for me;but it was just,what God knew I needed. :-) No more and no less;but just exactly what God knew I needed. And there is no praise or boast of my own,in my being born of God,for every bit of that,was of God,from start to finish. :-) Did I believe God? Yes,I did. Did I do that apart from God and what God did for me? No, not at all. For God had to show and prove to me,that which I needed to see,know and understand,for me to be born of God. And as I see it,what God has done for one and some,before all is said and done,God will do the same,for everyone! :-) So,when it comes to our being brought to repentance towards God and on to faith in Jesus Christ,then God will give to each person,exactly what they need,for that to happen to them. That and no more and no less.
Ronny to Roseread:
I love it that you both here Bro Ronnie and Marie
I do read many posts
and are blesed by those willing to share their personal growth in truth and grace
I believe the building up of Jesus Christ this Mountain in the earth is by His SPIRIT OF HOLINESS and all will come and worship HIM
and as with growing pains the tearing down of Babylon is also essential in everyone of us as well
we get to experience both the chastening of the Lord and seeing His glory revealed in the earth as it is in heaven
Time is not a thing God concerns Himself with as us humans do
God made 3 ages and stages for us to learn from
being what was and what is and what is to come
We only Know what we know by His mercy and giving to us by His own Spirit and truth , those are what we have to praise God with always
Love to all , its the greatest gift of God we can ever possess in our hearts that being Jesus Christ , I now understand that Jesus is the reward !
I have said it for years about this fact but has just now becoming a reality :HeartThrob:
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen and amen! :-)
And though it's not a "sweet" thing to God through,is is such a good thing,that God does chasten us. For as the scripture well says,God chastens,who He loves. And like the best Parent of all,He does such for our own good and for the good of some others,as well! :-)
And I really like what Jesus Christ said,to his early disciples. Simply,follow me.
:-) And that,is what we are to do. But for many years,I did a combination of sometimes following Jesus Christ and at other times,following my early local church leaders;but then,God taught me better. :-) Taught me,that I was not to follow local church leaders at all,unless I knew that what they were saying and doing,was of God. So I can still have a good time,listening to some preachers and be blessed of God in my listening to some things they say,even though I know,that all they say,is not of God.
BTW,I also remembered something else tonight, :-) that my old mind,had forgot about! :-) And it's my having talked to a niece of mine,about how I now believe in UR. And I came to find out,that she also believes the same! :-) So besides me,that's makes 2 people among my family members,who also believe on this now,as I do! My niece and a nephews wife! :-) And I now have my suspicions, that there may be others in my family,who also believe the same. I don't know who they are yet,if any;but there could be some. But like me,they may just seldom talk about such,among family members. Hard to do that,when you come to find out that some family members,will really get mad,if you tell them you believe in UR and that there is no Jesus Christ created hell,of eternal torment.
Quote from: Tom on November 17, 2014, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 04:43:58 AM
I don't think that means those condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" get off easy. I think what they will experience when they are judged before the great white throne will be their chastening.
Ronny to Tom:
And that's good,for who God loves,he chastens! :-)
And we who are born of God in this age,we also have and go through God's chastening. I know,both when we are born of God and afterwards to. We go through many things and we may will not always understand why;but we can come to know,that every bit of it is from God and for our own good! :-)
Tom to Ronny:
I agree. We all need guidance and correction, and everything God does is for our good. I believe even evil serves a purpose for ultimate good, and it will eventually be nullified because it will no longer be necessary when God is all in all.
Ronny to Tom:
Oh yeah,even evil does serve a purpose for ultimate good! :-) For God brings good out of all things,even evil! :-)
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 10:38:07 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.
The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Ronny to Eaglesway:
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness. And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
Rosered:
:goodpost: both say so much and AMEN!!! :boyheart:
So many cannot understand this beautiful part of Gods plan :thumbsup:
satan is last for the fire because of the destruction of the flesh being a necessary part of Gods plan
all things work together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose :flowerred:
keeping this in mind at all times is what helps get us though the hard parts the Helper and comforter of the Holy Spirit and fire sent for the Glory of God
to be revealed unto us , each and every one
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)
And Rosered,I remember 19 years ago now,how God so used that scripture to help me! :-) I had been taught one thing by some local church elders and had believed such,since I was 12 years old. So,I believed something they taught me about myself,for 28 years. Then God brought some other Christians into my life,that made me wonder if what I'd been taught,was true or not? And one Christian preacher in particular,God had brought him into my life,to show me that if I didn't understand a matter and or wasn't sure,I was simply to ask God. Ask God to show me. Ask God to guide me and show me,as I read and studied on some scriptures. And in my 40th year,I had done that on one subject,for around 6 weeks. My,I so wanted to understand and know one thing and whether it was true or not. I wanted to know for sure and therefore,I wanted to know from God and God alone. So,I was reading the scriptures and asking God to guide and show me. And I was seeing somethings;but after maybe 6 weeks,I still didn't have a definate answer. And one night I was reading scripture and despaired of ever finding out the truth of this particular matter. And when I really despaired,I began to have some thoughts of suicide. I was sitting at the kitchen table and thought about the rifle,that was sitting over in the corner of the room. And just as soon as I had that thought,God put this scripture in my mind! :-) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 And just as soon as God did that for me,I simply stopped and asked/prayed to God. Asking God,if something I had been taught to believe,was true or not? If some specific part of me,was sinful or not? And God simply answered my prayer and said no. And I can't explain how I heard that;but hear it I did and I knew my answer was from God. :-) Well,right at first I couldn't believe such,so I prayed the 2nd time,asking God the same again. And in like manner,God simply replied to my prayer and gave me the same answer again! :-) So what I had to know,was desperate to know and what I wanted to know and that directly from God,that is exactly what God gave to me and did for me. :-) Just shaking my head in wonder,at the ways God works and the love of God! :-)
Rosered:
Thanks Bro Ronnie
that is just so precious !! wow , I understand what you mean when come to that place,,, where we all ," but give up everything !!"
Ronny to Rosered:
Thank you Rosered. :-) And I have no doubt;but that God took me to that place of giving up,just so God would reremind me,of just how greatly God did love me and that God would make everything,to work out for good! :-) And in all of this, God forced me to go directly to God for my answer and that was just what I needed. And I can't remember right now,how to spell her last name;but I really have like reading somethings by this woman,named Jan A. I've really liked reading some,in her blog. But one thing that really put a smile on my face,was how she sometimes says,that God takes at times,takes us through the briar patches an knotholes of life! :-) So true! LoL And that,for our own good! :-)
Rosered to Ronny:
To Know God and His Will
I believe this is exactly how all of us learn from asking God for His Wisdom over matters and opening the scriptures up
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)
Rosered to Ronny:
God really does Love us , we have such a hard time knowing that simple yet beautiful and profound part
Ronny to Rosered:
I knew that,from the time God saved me,when I was 16 years old;but for years after that,I was still in so much bondage,to some people. My early church elders, those that I'd been brought up in the local church and taught to listen to,as if they were God. They weren't and I knew that;but still,I was taught to listen to everything they said,as if they were God and God speaking to me. And I'm sure in somethings,they did speak God's truth from the pulpit;but I'm just as sure, that in a number of other things,they were not speaking for God;but,they thought they were. So,they were deceived and so was I,by somethings they taught me to believe.
Rosered to Ronny:
I know this time of year we have little birds struggling to survive the harsh winters , we got a doozy last night
and when you feed them all , its fun to watch , but this one little bird flew up on the window sill as to not fear , but be bold and trust and just do a little dance on the sill and my heart swelled for all the little birds because of that one and as I watched , I thought God because OF JESUS CHRIST
coming as the one and you loving ALL because of your ONE OF A KIND SON ! Showing mercy though the suffering of all your kind hand feeds us everyone I loved that lesson , I knew Gods Love was more precious than any thing we could ever imagine !!
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen! :-)
And here in NE Texas,it was Southern cold last night :-) and a dusting of snow this morning! But that melted off,by this evening. Was pretty to see;but I'm glad it warmed up enough for it to melt! :-) And I enjoy looking out my oldest Sis's front door here and seeing some birds as well,in her yard and driveway. :-) This morning,it was several real little birds. Can't remember what they're called? But they come around more in late fall and winter and I sure enjoy watching them. :-) Which reminds me,to just now put down birdhouses and bird feeders,on a list of things,that I might just like to build?
Rosered to Ronny:
He does this often in things and ways that teach us as well, His mercy and loving kindness Jesus prays for all the intercessor though His Spirit for all to survive and live even in harsh times
:HeartThrob:
Ronny to Rosered:
Amen-how true! :-)
And just thinking here,about how Jesus Christ even prayed to the Father,for those who were killing him! And later on,Stephen followed his example and did the same. And Jesus Christ,he simply tells us,follow Me. And that,is what we should do. Yet a few years back,I was posting in what was supposed to be a mostly Christian group and a lot of the people there,had this in common-a preacher from the past,who had really abused them all. He had even got them to write out their checks to him,instead of in the name of their local church! And later on,they said he even told them,that the church house was his,because he'd bought it,with his money. But it was the money,they gave him! And I posted with these people,for some time and I could see how bitter they still were,towards him and this years after his death. And one time,I simply posted the scripture there,where Jesus Christ tells us,we are to love our enemy,etc. My, I was shocked at how many people there,got so mad about that! (ha) But that is what Jesus Christ tells us,as he tells us to follow him. And as I well know, bitterness and anger at some local church leaders,that never helped me. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't say,when and what they've done that was just wrong;but it helps neither them or us,for us to stay mad and bitter,at such people.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators. I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome. I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.
HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO
In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us. Sometimes, it has surprises.
Ronny to Lazarus:
I think it's a really good thing,that you're doing this! :-)
Lazarus:
Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth. Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark. We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them. There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists. Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.
Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today: she is my own flesh and blood. I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall. God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die. God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed. Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility? Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...
Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.
Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.
Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died. However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.
Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them. All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed. The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned. Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.
Chapter 20
Abimelek takes Sarah from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death. Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk. Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.
Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.
Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.
Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.
Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell. He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact: death, not Hell.
Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.
QuoteRonny to Rosered:
Amen-how true! :-)
And just thinking here,about how Jesus Christ even prayed to the Father,for those who were killing him! And later on,Stephen followed his example and did the same. And Jesus Christ,he simply tells us,follow Me. And that,is what we should do. Yet a few years back,I was posting in what was supposed to be a mostly Christian group and a lot of the people there,had this in common-a preacher from the past,who had really abused them all. He had even got them to write out their checks to him,instead of in the name of their local church! And later on,they said he even told them,that the church house was his,because he'd bought it,with his money. But it was the money,they gave him! And I posted with these people,for some time and I could see how bitter they still were,towards him and this years after his death. And one time,I simply posted the scripture there,where Jesus Christ tells us,we are to love our enemy,etc. My, I was shocked at how many people there,got so mad about that! (ha) But that is what Jesus Christ tells us,as he tells us to follow him. And as I well know, bitterness and anger at some local church leaders,that never helped me. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't say,when and what they've done that was just wrong;but it helps neither them or us,for us to stay mad and bitter,at such people.
Hi Bro Ronnie ,
To me , this just
proves the scriptures ,
And how the
Truth is just as binding as it is loosing when you disobey them and it always come down to the matters of the heart :HeartThrob:
the Word of God is not bound , but we by the wrong attitude are bound by them
the True Shepherd cares for His sheep
and other is a hireling and does not care for the sheep
and those when it comes to religion will find the wolves in sheeps clothing
but they were given an opportunity to overcome evil with good and it produced the fruit of bitterness instead , they could have suffered the wrong as we Know this is what Jesus and forgiveness and grace is all about and lessons learned in His righteousness
2Tim 2
8 Remember Jesus Christ, who was raised from the dead, who is from the ·family [L seed] of David [2 Sam. 7:12–16].
·This is the Good News I preach [L ...according to my Gospel], 9 and I am suffering because of it to the point of being bound with chains like a criminal.
But God's ·teaching [message; word] is not in chains/ bound .
10
So I ·patiently accept [endure] all these troubles so that those whom God has chosen can ·have [receive; obtain] the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. With that salvation comes ·glory that never ends [eternal glory].
11
This ·teaching is true [saying/word is trustworthy; 1 Tim. 1:15; 3:1; 4:9; Titus 3:8; C what follows may be an early Christian hymn]:
If we died with him, we will also live with him.
12 If we ·accept suffering [endure; persevere], we will also ·rule [reign] with him.If we ·say we don't know [deny; disown; renounce] him, he will ·say he doesn't know [deny; disown; renounce] us.
13 If we are not faithful, he will still be faithful,
because he ·must be true to who he is [L cannot deny/disown himself].
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 18, 2014, 05:48:46 AM
Ronny to Rosered:
Just thought of something else! :-) And I need to get this part written out. But I've always said I want my funeral to be much,like a congregational singing! :-) And right off of the bat,I can think of 3 songs,that I want the whole congregation to sing. Amazing Grace,How Great Thou Art and The Love of God! :-) And I know some scriptures too,that I would want to be read at my funeral. Those like,in Adam all die,in Jesus Christ all shall be made alive! :-)
Well,years ago now,an aunt of mine gave me this idea. For,for her funeral, beforehand she wrote out exactly what songs she wanted sung and what scriptures she wanted read. I like that,I really like that idea. :-)
Ronny, that's a fine idea. I've heard that in China, at least in the old days, it was a custom to have the coffin parked near to an old relative, so that they would know their body would get a proper burial - a comfort. Laz has even decided on an epitaph:
I Never Wanted To Be Here Anyway.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 18, 2014, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 18, 2014, 05:48:46 AM
Ronny to Rosered:
Just thought of something else! :-) And I need to get this part written out. But I've always said I want my funeral to be much,like a congregational singing! :-) And right off of the bat,I can think of 3 songs,that I want the whole congregation to sing. Amazing Grace,How Great Thou Art and The Love of God! :-) And I know some scriptures too,that I would want to be read at my funeral. Those like,in Adam all die,in Jesus Christ all shall be made alive! :-)
Well,years ago now,an aunt of mine gave me this idea. For,for her funeral, beforehand she wrote out exactly what songs she wanted sung and what scriptures she wanted read. I like that,I really like that idea. :-)
Lazarus:
Ronny, that's a fine idea. I've heard that in China, at least in the old days, it was a custom to have the coffin parked near to an old relative, so that they would know their body would get a proper burial - a comfort. Laz has even decided on an epitaph:
I Never Wanted To Be Here Anyway.
Ronny to Lazarus:
:-)
I once built a small greenhouse and that,partly underground. Dug out the ground there,2 to 3 feet deep. Then in later years,I would sometimes tease some people,saying I could be buried there,etc! :-) I also never liked the high prices the funeral homes charged for a coffin,so said for me,they should use a 55 gallon metal barrel. :-) And if they wanted to stretch me out,one of my nephews could simply weld two of those barrels together! :-) LoL
Ok,to get a little more serious. :-) And as I've been known to say,I'm not cheap;but I am frugal! :-) And I do dislike the high prices funeral homes charge for caskets! So I thought of cremation and some of my family don't like that idea. But as I say,we're all going back to the dust,so this cremation way,I would just get back there faster! :-)
And over the years and lately too,I've simply thought of donating my body to science. I just like the idea,of kids at a medical school,being able to practice on my dead body,so that they can better learn,how to help the living. A few years back,that is what an uncle of mine did-donated his body to science. Then as best I understand,after they get what use out of such they can,the body is cremated and the ashes returned to the family. And all that,at no cost to the remaining family members.
And I do have some insurance;but not a great amount. And right now,the ones who would get that at my death,would be any surviving members of my immediate family,my older 6 brothers and sisters. And I've been known to say in past years,that I want as little of my insurance as possible,spent on my burial. And that any surviving brothers and sisters of mine,should simply take a part of my insurance money and have a party! :-) I don't mean they have to do anything fancy;but after my death,I want them to celebrate life and the many good times,we had,in our growing up together! :-) And yes,I know they would grieve at my passing,just as I and others grieve,at the passing of a loved one. And nothing wrong with grieving;but we don't need to stay there. We also,need to celebrate life,the life God has given us.
There is that custom here,that I really like. A family member dies and people of the community,friends of the family,they bring food to one home. Then after a loved ones funeral,everyone gathers there. Both to share a meal and to talk about some good things,of the past. So in that way,they celebrate a life.
And thinking here,of when my Dad's funeral procession,was winding out of the local town. The hearse in front and the other vehicles following behind. I never will forget this man,who was walking down a sidewalk in that town. As we passed,he simply stopped and took off his hat. My,I so appreciated that act of kindness and I look forward to the day,I can meet that man and tell his just that! :-)
Leviticus, chapter 1
Right away, the Helliolater will probably step forward and declare, "There you are! Burned sacrifices – that's symbolic of Hell!" Well, maybe not, but let's take a look at what's going on here. My father's father used to say, "It doesn't mean there's goslings just because there's a gander sitting on the gatepost!" As students of Scripture, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, to look under the surface for deeper meanings, to understand what the text is really saying. Our task may seem daunting due to the subject being "types and shadows," but some thoughtful study should clear things up.
Except for the fire, the symbology just does not fit with the conventional picture of Hell. Sacrifices are burned up in the tabernacle service, not burned on and on. More importantly, the person bringing the sacrifice transfers his sin or guilt to the animal being sacrificed, just as the sin and/or guilt of the whole world was transferred to the perfect sacrifice, Jesus. The rituals of sacrifice in the books of Moses are symbolic of THAT, not of Hell. Hell symbolism would surely involve human sacrifice in fire, and in fact, it did happen in Christianity, but only after Hell theology had become entrenched. I speak of course, of burning at the stake, and the auto-da-fe'. My understanding of all of that is, "Well, they're going to Hell, so let's give them a good start." BTW, Hell is not mentioned in the texts having to do with the sacrificial services. Chapter one ends with these words: "...a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto to the Lord." Do you not see that this cannot have anything to do with Hell, as most think of Hell? If you put the two ideas together, a God who sends people to Hell, and a God of love, a huge dissonance must begin in the human mind. It need not be so.
Chapters 2 – 9
Leviticus 6:13 states, "The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out." Leviticus 9:24 shows us a literal consuming fire of God. Remember that this fire is not a symbol of eternal punishment, but stands for the nature of God as a cleansing fire, burning up peace, sin, and trespass offerings in order to atone for the sinful and guilty, and restore them to God's favor. Again, this is a picture of a God of Love, not Punishment.
Chapters 10 - 16
Nadab and Abihu offer strange fire before God (by accident or by design, we aren't told), and are killed/consumed by the same fire we saw in chapter 9. The account is silent on their fate beyond death, relating only that their dead bodies were carried outside the camp without ceremony.
Chapters 17 - 19
God says of anyone who eats blood, "I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people." Sending that person also to Hell is not mentioned.
Chapters 20 - 25
Penalties for various immoral acts are prescribed, but even for the one act which merited burning (whether the offenders were to be burned alive or burned after being killed is not spelled out), any future punishment in Hell is not threatened.
Chapters 26 – 27
Here, blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience are spelled out in some detail. God states more than once that He will punish seven times more if the disobedient do not repent. However, as severe as God's judgments are, they do not include a future punishment in eternal fire.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the Book of Leviticus.
Awesome.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 08, 2014, 06:03:30 AM
Leviticus, chapter 1
Right away, the Helliolater will probably step forward and declare, "There you are! Burned sacrifices – that's symbolic of Hell!" Well, maybe not, but let's take a look at what's going on here. My father's father used to say, "It doesn't mean there's goslings just because there's a gander sitting on the gatepost!" As students of Scripture, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, to look under the surface for deeper meanings, to understand what the text is really saying. Our task may seem daunting due to the subject being "types and shadows," but some thoughtful study should clear things up.
Except for the fire, the symbology just does not fit with the conventional picture of Hell. Sacrifices are burned up in the tabernacle service, not burned on and on. More importantly, the person bringing the sacrifice transfers his sin or guilt to the animal being sacrificed, just as the sin and/or guilt of the whole world was transferred to the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the sacrificial animals were pure and spotless. They were also of the "holy type" sheep, goats, bullocks. If it was a symbol of hell would expect sacrifice of, say, disfigured swine.
It doesn't make sense to link pure animals to hell.
Only part of the animal was sacrificed to God. If it's a picture of hell why only a part is sacrificed? Where are the other parts? The parts that were actually burned varied greatly on the type of sacrifice. (peace, sin, communication). Symbolic for different types of hell. Think not....
This page clearly shows all the different type of sacrifices and parts being offered.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/levitical%20sacrifices%20and%20offerings%20of%20the%20old%20covenant.htm (http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/levitical%20sacrifices%20and%20offerings%20of%20the%20old%20covenant.htm)
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2014, 09:55:54 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 08, 2014, 06:03:30 AM
Leviticus, chapter 1
Right away, the Helliolater will probably step forward and declare, "There you are! Burned sacrifices – that's symbolic of Hell!" Well, maybe not, but let's take a look at what's going on here. My father's father used to say, "It doesn't mean there's goslings just because there's a gander sitting on the gatepost!" As students of Scripture, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, to look under the surface for deeper meanings, to understand what the text is really saying. Our task may seem daunting due to the subject being "types and shadows," but some thoughtful study should clear things up.
Except for the fire, the symbology just does not fit with the conventional picture of Hell. Sacrifices are burned up in the tabernacle service, not burned on and on. More importantly, the person bringing the sacrifice transfers his sin or guilt to the animal being sacrificed, just as the sin and/or guilt of the whole world was transferred to the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the sacrificial animals were pure and spotless. They were also of the "holy type" sheep, goats, bullocks. If it was a symbol of hell would expect sacrifice of, say, disfigured swine.
It doesn't make sense to link pure animals to hell.
Only part of the animal was sacrificed to God. If it's a picture of hell why only a part is sacrificed? Where are the other parts? The parts that were actually burned varied greatly on the type of sacrifice. (peace, sin, communication). Symbolic for different types of hell. Think not....
This page clearly shows all the different type of sacrifices and parts being offered.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/levitical%20sacrifices%20and%20offerings%20of%20the%20old%20covenant.htm (http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/levitical%20sacrifices%20and%20offerings%20of%20the%20old%20covenant.htm)
Plus which the sacrifices were all prototypes of the sacrifice of Christ, enabling the one for whom the sacrifice was made to escape punishment for their sin, entitling them to "remission" of sin. Clearly then the sacrifices were for propitiation, not punishment or torment, and no sacrifice was burned alive.
Thanks Ronnie , and Laz and John and Tony for
Sharing ,,,, all helpful :thumbsup:
QuoteQuote from: RonnyTX on November 18, 2014, 05:48:46 AM
Ronny to Rosered:
Just thought of something else! :-) And I need to get this part written out. But I've always said I want my funeral to be much,like a congregational singing! :-) And right off of the bat,I can think of 3 songs,that I want the whole congregation to sing. Amazing Grace,How Great Thou Art and The Love of God! :-) And I know some scriptures too,that I would want to be read at my funeral. Those like,in Adam all die,in Jesus Christ all shall be made alive! :-)
Well,years ago now,an aunt of mine gave me this idea. For,for her funeral, beforehand she wrote out exactly what songs she wanted sung and what scriptures she wanted read. I like that,I really like that idea. :-)
Ronny, that's a fine idea. I've heard that in China, at least in the old days, it was a custom to have the coffin parked near to an old relative, so that they would know their body would get a proper burial - a comfort. Laz has even decided on an epitaph:
I Never Wanted To Be Here Anyway
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2014, 12:06:57 AM
..I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.
Me too! ..but with other UR folks i sometimes will try to communicate my belief that only very few, very stubborn holdouts, and the devil and his angels, will make it to the more stringent measures of the LOF..
Numbers, chapters 1 – 10
These chapters are an account of a census, the setting aside of the tribe of Levi, various duties and tasks, dedications, various Laws, and other matters. This writer finds no mention of Hell.
Chapter 11
In response to complaints, some are killed by the same fire we read about in Leviticus. No numbers of dead or their afterlife fate are mentioned. This, "the fire of the Lord," cannot be Hell, as it burns in the material world, among the living. No mention has been made yet that God has created Hell. Later, lots of people in the camp die, smitten by God as soon as they sink teeth into quail (?) from the sea. Even though people were so carefully numbered in past chapters, there is oddly no reckoning here. Those who survived must have buried their dead quickly or fled without bothering to bury or count. With quail two cubits high on the ground, it must have been an unhealthy place, but it was not Hell, or even Hell-on-Earth.
Chapters 12 – 14
Given the prospect of taking the land of Promise, the people respond with, "Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!" (14:2) Notice that Hell is not in their thinking, just simple death, unlike people today who might ask why God doesn't just kill them and send them to Hell. God's response is for that generation to die in the wilderness, and ten of the twelve men who went into Canaan as spies die right away. The next day, many of the people tried to take Canaan by the arm of flesh, failed, and many must have died. No assignment to Hell is mentioned for any of them.
Chapter 15
A sabbath breaker is stoned - no mention of Hell.
Chapter 16
Verses 30 to 35 relate God's judgment on Korah and those who followed him. If I read it right, then, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, their families, and their goods, all fell into an opening in the ground. Korah's other 250 men were burned alive by the fire we know well by now – well enough to know it wasn't Hellfire.
This is where Hell comes in – the KJV states that Korah and company fell alive into "the pit." (verse 33) The FFV reads "the grave," while the KJV II and the YLT both use the term "Sheol." We don't see the word "Hell" yet in the KJV, but this seems a good point to deal with it. I checked my OED, finding the usual definitions of "Hel," "Hell," and "Helle." "Hel" is also the name of the Norse god/ogress of their under-world. "Hell" as a verb, is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning "to cover." My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench to below the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he'd place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shoveling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called "helling the potatoes." Now in the case of Korah and the others who fell alive into the pit which opened under them, they were helled by God, and died in the pit, in the grave, in sheol. An eternal, conscious abode in the Hell of Dante, Milton, and Baxter is not mentioned or implied, so there is no need or reason to interpret it so. Many passages in the Bible are subject to the same argument.
Chapter 17
After Aaron's rod budded, people complained to Moses that they risked perishing and dying because of the Tabernacle. Their expressed fear is only of death, not Hell.
Chapter 18
At the end of this chapter we see the phrase "...lest ye die." It is often seen as God lays down the Law to Israel, but there is no threat of Hell in it, in any instance.
Chapter 19
God speaks of inaction for which, "...that soul shall be
cut off from Israel." It is not elaborated on, but I see no threat of Hell or even death in it, only a sort of banishment.
Chapter 20
Miriam dies and is buried without comment. Later on,
Aaron dies, or as God tells it, is "gathered unto his people." His death and non-entry into Canaan are a result of his actions, but no further punishment, such as Hell, is mentioned.
Chapter 21
More death here – the Canaanites are massacred, fiery serpents bite and kill Israelites, the Amorites are massacred, as well as the people of Bashan. Hell is not mentioned.
Chapters 22 – 24
Balaam goes to Balak to curse Israel. He is accosted by an angel sent to kill him, but without threat of Hell. In passing, I note that in 23:19, God says, "God is not a man, that he should lie." This assures us that God, and God's Word do not propagate a falsehood, or by silence, imply one. As Jesus said centuries later, "If it were not so, I would have told you." (?) Let us keep up our examination of God's Word, to see if Hell is so, to show ourselves approved, and to see if the cursing of the threat of Hell is not so, but as through Balaam, God has blessings in mind instead.
Chapter 25
A number of Israelites are killed for idolatry, 24,000 die in a plague, Zimri and Cozbi are killed by Phinehas, but Hell is not threatened or mentioned.
Chapter 26
Israel is numbered again, and all men who went out
from Egypt are found to have died, except for Caleb and Joshua. Hell is not mentioned.
Chapter 27
An Israelite, Zelophehad, has died for his own sins, as part of the cursed generation, but Hell is not mentioned.
Chapter 28 – 31
Most of Midian is massacred, including Balaam, but Hell is not mentioned as the destiny of Midian's dead. Of 12,000 warriors sent by Israel, not one is lost.
Chapter 32 – 36
In these chapters, the only things touching our thesis are statements about cities of refuge, murderers, and bloodshed – but no statements about Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the Book of Numbers.
Deuteronomy, chapters 1 – 8
Most of the content of the early chapters of this book is a retelling of what was previously in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers. In 7:9 – 10, we see this, "...the Lord thy God...repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them...he will repay him to his face." Nothing is said here about repayment later, in the afterlife or in Hell. In the same way, promises, blessings, warnings, and cursings are all couched in terms of earthly things, in this life – no afterlife consequences are mentioned (I am not suggesting there is no afterlife).
Chapters 9 – 10
Chapter 10 is a second witness to the Genesis story of the creation: "...the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also..." (verse 14). Hell is not mentioned as belonging to the Lord God, or even existing at all.
Chapters 11 – 18
At the end of chapter 18, God tells us through Moses: "...when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken...thou shalt not be afraid of him." Based on this statement, if your priest, minister, or preacher teaches and preaches Hell, you are not to fear it or the speaker, IF God has not spoken of it. So far, we have picked up not so much as a hint of Hell in His word.
Chapters 19 – 28
The famous blessings and cursings of chapter 28 are silent on the subject of Hell. In the blessings, there is no mention of safety from Hell as a blessing, though it certainly would be if Hell existed. In the cursings, there is no threat of Hell, or any hint of its possibility in the afterlife. What God spells out as the blessings and cursings, are consequences of obedience or disobedience and they are entirely consequences in the here-and-now temporal world in which we live to this day. God's most extreme threat to the living is death, and He has no threat against the dead at all.
Chapter 29
What is the worst that God proposes to do to those who will not obey His covenant? In verse 20, He states, "...the anger of the Lord, and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven." There is no mention of sending that man to Hell after death, which God surely had the power to do, if Hell actually existed.
Chapter 30
Verse 15 sets out "...life and good, and death and evil..." not "...life and good, and Hell and evil."
Chapters 31 – 32
Here it is, in 32:22 – "...a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Remember that there is no Biblical record of the creation of Hell, so where is this coming from? First of all, we have hell, the earth, and mountains. Two of the three are part of the here-and-now literal creation. Is this hell any different? Some think Hell is located at the center of the earth, below Jerusalem. Others see Hell as being a metaphysical place, a spiritual place. This is neither – "hell" in this verse is badly translated from sheol, or "the unseen," which we have dealt with before. Lacking the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, the early Israelites understood that the dead were dead - their state and condition were unseen and unknown. "Grave" would surely be a better translation here, and "sheol" is often translated so.
Chapters 33 – 34
Moses dies, but Hell is not mentioned.
We find only one mention of "hell" in the Book of Deuteronomy, but it is a translation error. Hell, then is not in the Book of Deuteronomy.
Hell, as a place of eternal torment in fire, is not to be found in the five books of Moses.
66 occurrences of sheol in the NT. Translated as hell and the grave and the pit in the KJV, with no apparent reason for the one word to be translated into 3 different words. should have all been the grave.
Keep up the good work Laz :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 03, 2015, 08:50:10 AM
66 occurrences of sheol in the NT. Translated as hell and the grave and the pit in the KJV, with no apparent reason for the one word to be translated into 3 different words. should have all been the grave.
Keep up the good work Laz :thumbsup:
As it happens, the newest translations all agree with you, including the NIV etc. I guess hell was supposed to be some brand new concept Jesus brought to the NT?......that none of the Apostles mention either.
Yes. There are many words, that are translated into several different words in the KJV- and in some other versions as well(KJV is the worst), I have even run across a few in the Concordant. While i think there can be occasional contextual justification for some of that, I don't think it makes sense as a practice and is really just a manifestation of the theological preferences of the translators, which is, imo, bogus. Altho we do all work to some degree out of the inherent intellectual presumptions of what we believe- we should at least be consistent about it.
While the site was down, I managed to finish up Joshua:
Joshua, chapters 1 – 8
Jericho is taken and its people mostly slaughtered, but their fate after being killed is not given. Achan commits a sin costing the armies of Israel the lives of 36 men. Achan is stoned and burned, but no mention of him then going on to Hell is made. Ai is treated as Jericho was, again with many dead, just dead.
Joshua, chapters 9 – 10
The ambassadors/deceivers of Gibeon explain their actions as fear of death, with no reference to Hell. In addition to Jericho and Ai, a list of cities, with all slaughtered, is the subject of chapter ten, with lots of death, but no Hell.
Joshua, chapters 11 – 22
The whole land of Promise is taken by war and death, but Hell is not mentioned.
Joshua, chapter 23
Verse 7 tells us, "...neither make mention of the name of their gods..." The Bible does a good job of following this rule up to this point, but note, reader, that later on the names of various pagan gods begin to be mentioned in the text of the Holy Scripture. I can only surmise that this particular commandment had been mostly forgotten by the time the events of the book of Judges (and later books) were written down. I try to use this formula if the situation comes up: [name of pagan god, deleted by command of God]. I see a very real problem with so many Bible translations using the title "LORD" for the God of Israel, instead of His real name, but on the other hand, using the proper name of every pagan god mentioned in the text. A translator should convey the original text with accuracy, but I believe a translator of the Bible should also follow the instructions of the God of that Bible, YHVH by name. This is off the track of our Subject, but I do have my pet Biblical peeves...
Facing death, Joshua says, in verse 14, "...I am going the way of all the earth..." His concern is not with his own afterlife destiny, but he speaks of the promises of God, and of Israel's necessary obedience.
Chapter 24
Joshua and Eleazar die and the bones of Joseph are buried without mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Joshua.
Judges went really quick:
Judges, chapters 1 - 2
Chapter 1 details more war and death, but no Hell.
Just as I predicted in my commentary on the 23rd chapter of Joshua, chapter 2 of Judges records the apostasy of Israel, and in the same breath, names a pagan god for the first time. God is angry, punishes them in the real world by means of foreign nations, but says nothing about also sending them to Hell when they die.
Judges, chapters 3 - 21
These chapters are a litany of oppressions, judges, deliverances, war, and death, but Hell is nowhere mentioned. Israel's first king, Abimelech, and the men who follow him, are brought to justice in the real world, and killed. Samson dies a violent death, as do his Philistine victims, but the text is silent on their fate after death. The tribe of Benjamin is nearly wiped out over a minor incident – men, women, and children are killed without mercy, but nothing is said beyond that.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the Book of Judges.
Ruth, chapters 1 – 4
This is a nice, quiet, likable, interlude in the tumult of Israel's history. A father and two sons die, but their state in death is not described.
There is no mention of Hell, then in the Book of Ruth.
I Samuel, chapters 1 – 2
The Song of Hannah tells us in 2:6, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." Here is one of many examples of Hebrew parallelism, and "killeth" lines up with "bringeth down to the grave." "Grave" here is that word "sheol" again, so often (mis)translated as "Hell," but don't you see that hell = grave? Note that sheol or the grave is as far as God brings down, not further down to some literal or metaphysical Hell. Note also the parallel "maketh alive" and "bringeth up," and this is an early hint of the coming resurrection.
Later in the chapter, God tells Levi the fate of his two evil sons: death – as usual, just death.
Chapters 3 – 7
4,000 of Israel fall in battle, then 30,000. The Ark is captured by the Philistines, and they pass it from city to city like a hot potato, many dying, and the rest cursed with hemorrhoids. They send it back on a cart to Israel, but it is not treated with respect and 50,070 men die for looking into it. On the other hand, the Philistines are smitten by God and Israel in battle, but the body count is not given. Lots of death (just death) here.
Chapters 8 – 14
Saul becomes king, and defeats the Ammonites, with an army numbering 330,000 – an army much smaller than that which conquered the Land of Promise some centuries before. The Philistines and other peoples are also warred against, with death the only risk mentioned.
Chapter 15
Saul musters his army to fight Amalek, but now it only numbers 200,000, plus 10,000 men of Judah, down from the 300,000 plus 30,000 of Judah which showed up to fight Ammon. We can only wonder, for the ancient writer does not elaborate. The Amalekites are wiped out, and even for these evil people, Hell is not mentioned.
Chapters 16 – 24
David kills Goliath and lots of other Philistines are killed in battle, but there is no body count or mention of Hell for them.
Later, the priests of Nob are killed along with their families. Nothing is said of these righteous, innocent people going to Heaven or Hell. David is pursued by Saul in plot after plot, but there is no hint that any danger but simple death faced him or his men.
Chapter 25
Nabal dies (25:38), "...the Lord smote Nabal, that he died." As ever, simple death.
Chapter 26
(26:16) "As the Lord liveth, ye are worthy to die..." There is none of that "Go to Hell" phrasing so common in modern epithets.
Chapter 27
David and his men, in service to the king of Gath, engage in extermination of some of the people Israel was charged to drive out. No fate for them after death is given.
Chapter 28
Saul consults a witch to bring up Samuel, but was it really Samuel? Remember that Samuel was dead, and that his body was decomposing in the grave, his spirit had returned to God (who gave it), and his soul no longer existed. We must view this incident as a deception – the witch, Saul, and even the one who wrote the account - all seem to believe Samuel had been brought up. I know that the ancients believed in shades, ghosts, and the like, but I view them as the manifestations of demons. Think – did the witch, or her familiar spirit, or demons have the power to make the dead speak? I must say, no. God did, and I don't care to limit Him, but I am not about to say that God resurrected Samuel for a few minutes to chide Saul, just to deliver much the same message He had given to Saul before. Anyway, the text had already stated that God was not answering Saul, so why would God cooperate with a witch? I am just not going there – Saul had stepped into forbidden territory, and got information demons might have been well aware of. A real Samuel takes us into dangerous theological waters, and contradicts what God tells us elsewhere in His word.
Chapters 29 – 31
David and his men kill more Amalekites - Saul, his sons, and his army are wiped out by the Philistines. As ever, all receive simple death.
Hell, then, is not to be found in the book of I Samuel.
Excellent. And specially the info on Samuel. :dsunny:
II Samuel, chapters 1 - 2
David has an Amalekite killed, who claimed to have killed Saul, probably expecting a reward for doing so. A civil war develops between David, who is king of Judah at this point, and Ishbosheth, who rules the rest of Israel. At one point in the conflict, Abner asks, "Shall the sword devour for ever?" If it does, then the grave devours also, but nothing is said on the order of modern parlance, such as "Hell ain't half full yet!"
Chapters 3 – 6
Abner and Ishbosheth are assassinated. David has the killers of Ishbosheth killed, saying, "Shall I not...require his blood of your hand, and take you away from the earth?" They were not taken to Heaven, Hell, or even to the grave, for their bodies were hung up in Hebron.
Uzzah angers God by touching the Ark, and God smites him, but the result is only his death.
Chapter 7
God says of David, "...when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee..." Even David, the "man after God's own Heart," will not proceed to Heaven, but only to the common destiny of all men until the resurrection: the grave. See Acts 2:34.
Chapters 8 – 10
David fights more wars with more death, but with no mention of any fate for the dead.
Chapters 11 - 12
David plots the death of Uriah to cover up his sin with Bathsheba. Note how the seed of this may have been planted in David's mind by the incident of Nabal and Abigail – another man dies, and David gets his wife. God levies a heavy punishment on David, but being sent to Hell for his sin is not part of it.
Chapters 13 – 19
Amnon is killed, and later Absalom and 20,000 other men in battle. Their fate is just death.
Chapter 20
Having previously killed Abner, Joab kills Amasa – Joab must have had a low tolerance for military rivals. Sheba is killed and a whole city is spared. No fate but death is stated for Amasa or Sheba.
Chapter 21
Seven descendants of Saul are delivered to the Gibeonites to be killed, and more Philistine giants are killed in battle - simple death for all.
Chapter 22
See the comments on Psalm 18.
Chapters 23 - 24
God, having something against Israel, causes David to order a census. Israel has 1,300,000 warriors, of which 500,000 are from Judah, and that seems a big portion of the whole. If we look at ten-tribed Israel (minus Levi and Judah) we would expect something like ten times the warriors of Judah - five million, not a mere 800,000. There, again, seems to be a drain of population, and I am guessing colonization. There is no explanation for it in the text, nor any explanation as to the fate of the 70,000 killed by the plague associated with the census. David protests their innocence to God, along with his own guilt. Hell is not mentioned.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the Book of II Samuel.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.
Well I hope so, because here goes.
Many of your arguments are weak, to say the least.
True, hell is never mentioned in the original scriptures at all.
But just because a person in the bible is not
said to have gone to hell, does not mean there is no hell.
I go places all the time without telling anyone where I am going - It doesn't mean I didn't go there, nor that the place doesn't exist.
The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in
any passage of
any correctly translated bible.
The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that
there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.
Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever.
How can you prove anything to them in that environment by listing instances where hell was not mentioned.
The problem is so much bigger and more complicated than that.
I myself have started an outline for a book I hope to write myself, based on the theme, "Hell no, no hell."
But I quickly became overwhelmed by the complicated issues of doctrines that have been distorted by the concept of eternal torment.
I seems to me that your methodology of presenting every scripture or chapter or book that
doesn't mention hell is like going all the way around the world the long way to go next door. IMO, that could make for a pretty boring, ineffective book.
No offense.
I agree JB. Heaven isn't mentioned in most verses either. Does that mean heaven isn't Biblical?
To debunk hell every verse that supports hell in the ET mind has to be debunked.
I think it's possible to convince certain verses aren't translated correctly, but eventually the debate moves toward the verses that 'clearly' show heaven an hell. Verses with fire, smoke, torment and judgement. And of course their fav verse; sheep and goat.
JBerton and WhiteWings, you are both entirely correct. However, what I am doing at present is only one aspect of the book I envision. I have already written a short essay (you may have seen it somewhere in the Tentmaker forums) in which I kick out the "props of Hell." I will probably expand on that, and have other things to say, also. Actually, what I am posting about "no mention of Hell" will surely be attacked as a logical fallacy. I'm just trying to cover all the bases and leave no "out" for Hell believers.
You know what the thing is LS. ALL info is in the Scriptures. Many translators messed up (on purpose). That means you basically have to re-translate the whole Bible and explain/prove what I translate it that way.
An atheist sees nothing but contradictions in the Bible.
Catholics sees all sorts of Catholic stuff while a Protestant sees not even a Catholic hint in the Bible.
An UR sees God laying out a salvation plan in every verse while the ET only sees God shoveling more coals into the fires of hell.
A Messianic like me believes non-Messianics will never understand the Bible while the anti-Messianics believe I'm putting the Law before Jesus or something along that line of thought.
So your book, like all books on the topic, will only be of use to those who are already doubting. Or the rare person with an open mind.
JBerton:
(snip)"The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in any passage of any correctly translated bible.
Ronny to JBerton:
I agree.
JBerton:
The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.
Ronny to JBerton:
I disagree. Example? "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him." 1 John 4:16 King James Version. Now the KJV is not a perfect version,yet it quite correctly says,that God is love. :-)
JBerton:
To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.
Ronny to JBerton:
I was taught in the local church and used to believe,that only the King James Version was a 100% correctly translated Bible. And I believed to read in another translation,was sin or the next thing to sin. And why would I want to read in such anyway,when I already had,the one and only true Bible?! :-) Or so I was taught to believe,in the local church I grew up in. But then,God showed/taught me better. :-) And it took me at least 2 trips to the local library,to actually pick up and take home,a non KJV of the Bible,that they were giving away. And when I got it home,I let no one see it or see me reading in it! And lo and behold,as I read in it,I saw that it also contained the gospel of Jesus Christ and many other truths of
God. Was it a perfect translation? I'm sure it wasn't. But God used it,to help and teach me. So,God uses even nonperfect translations of the Bible,both in saving a lost person and in continueing to teach them.
JBerton:
Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever." (snip)
Ronny to JBerton:
Yes,some Bible translations do speak of hell and a hell,that is eternal. And yes,many preachers and teachers teach that. And many of us sit in the pews and believe that,because we have also been taught in church to believe,that to hear our preacher/teachers words,is the same as hearing directly from God. That's not true;but then many are brought up in local churches and taught to believe that such is true.
Just thinking,I need to get back over to my own house and pick up that translation of the Bible,that I found years ago,at our local library. The one,that they were giving away for free. As best I remember,it has writings in the margins sometimes,that shows a different way a word could be translated. The first cope of a Bible,that I remember seeing,that did that.
Quote from: RonnyTX on January 29, 2015, 05:13:56 PM
JBerton:
(snip)"The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in any passage of any correctly translated bible.
Ronny to JBerton:
I agree.
JBerton:
The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.
Ronny to JBerton:
I disagree. Example? "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him." 1 John 4:16 King James Version. Now the KJV is not a perfect version,yet it quite correctly says,that God is love. :-)
Fine is you disagree, but I don't understand what you disagree with.
Quote from: RonnyTX on January 29, 2015, 05:13:56 PM
JBerton:
To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.
Ronny to JBerton:
I was taught in the local church and used to believe,that only the King James Version was a 100% correctly translated Bible. And I believed to read in another translation,was sin or the next thing to sin. And why would I want to read in such anyway,when I already had,the one and only true Bible?! :-) Or so I was taught to believe,in the local church I grew up in. But then,God showed/taught me better. :-) And it took me at least 2 trips to the local library,to actually pick up and take home,a non KJV of the Bible,that they were giving away. And when I got it home,I let no one see it or see me reading in it! And lo and behold,as I read in it,I saw that it also contained the gospel of Jesus Christ and many other truths of
God. Was it a perfect translation? I'm sure it wasn't. But God used it,to help and teach me. So,God uses even nonperfect translations of the Bible,both in saving a lost person and in continueing to teach them.
JBerton:
Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever." (snip)
Ronny to JBerton:
Yes,some Bible translations do speak of hell and a hell,that is eternal. And yes,many preachers and teachers teach that. And many of us sit in the pews and believe that,because we have also been taught in church to believe,that to hear our preacher/teachers words,is the same as hearing directly from God. That's not true;but then many are brought up in local churches and taught to believe that such is true.
Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that, but I clearly remember that they do teach that very thing. Maybe it's true sometimes if a preacher/teacher is teaching from a correctly translated bible and is teaching directly from what he has received from God (consider Paul). However, that is not what's happening in most Christian churches these days.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 29, 2015, 05:08:42 AM
JBerton and WhiteWings, you are both entirely correct. However, what I am doing at present is only one aspect of the book I envision. I have already written a short essay (you may have seen it somewhere in the Tentmaker forums) in which I kick out the "props of Hell." I will probably expand on that, and have other things to say, also. Actually, what I am posting about "no mention of Hell" will surely be attacked as a logical fallacy. I'm just trying to cover all the bases and leave no "out" for Hell believers.
If this is only
one aspect of your book, then what I stated really doesn't apply. Thanks for clarifying that. However, if you are aware that naysayers will attack the method as fallacy, then why give them ammunition?
Quote from: JBerton on January 29, 2015, 11:27:40 PM
If this is only one aspect of your book, then what I stated really doesn't apply. Thanks for clarifying that. However, if you are aware that naysayers will attack the method as fallacy, then why give them ammunition?
Well, I'm leaning toward making what I've posted so far in this thread into a lengthy appendix. You and WhiteWings are showing me that maybe it should not be the core of my argument.
I hate to bring up page one here on page six, showing how far behind I am.. :smile:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us. Sometimes, it has surprises.
Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth. Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark. We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them.
.."with the creation as a prey between them" - wow! (very nice line!) and you are very right!! :o
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :o absolutely!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today: she is my own flesh and blood. I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall. God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die. God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed. Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility? Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...
Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: really does make ya think doesn't it? :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.
Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died. However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.
ah well, here's where they have the idea, "Christ went to hell and visited those who perished in the flood" but what it says it "Christ via the Spirit preached to those awaiting judgment (the flood) while the ark was being prepared" (paraphrased.. and where is that verse? 2 Peter?) this goes good with the other one which is read as "He descended in to the lower part of the earth" as hades, place of the dead, or hell.. But the place of the dead, and the lower part of the earth is still the dust of the grave..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them. All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed. The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned. Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.
That's right! and it's used as "an example of 'eternal' (as they say) hellfire.. no fire there now..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Chapter 20
Abimelek takes Sarah from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death. Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk. Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.
I can't believe how disorganized God was..
[/quote]
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 12, 2014, 05:57:16 AM
Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.
Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.
Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.
Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell. He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact: death, not Hell.
Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.
There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.
:banana: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Chapters 15 - 31
The Song of Moses is sung, without mention of Hell for the Egyptians. The Amalekites are defeated, and there is no mention of Hell for them either, even though God speaks of blotting out any memory of them. The Ten Commandments are given, without mention of Hell. In fact, the whole Law given to Moses (in Exodus) specifies no punishment worse than death.
:Chinscratch: or better yet, aha!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Chapter 32
The golden calf is made and worshipped. God states that He will destroy all Israel for it, and raise up a new nation out of Moses. Moses talks Him out of it, and Hell is not mentioned. Yet, back at the camp, Moses commands the slaying of 3,000 men after saving the whole nation from destruction. Later, Moses begs God to strike his name from God's Book, but God tells him that the nation, or parts of it, are struck from His Book instead. The record here is silent on whether being struck from the Book means being sent to Hell.
Chapters 33 – 40
There is nothing of interest to our quest in these chapters.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 15, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Yes, I believe that any Greek speaking person reading from the Greek would separate the mythical aspects given to those words and stick with the base meaning of each. I was only pointing out what I did for the benefit of any reading who might look up Tartarus and mistakenly come away thinking that the myth associated with it had any connection with the reality of the semitic thoughtform of the writer Peter.
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: very good! thank you!
---------------------------
other misconceptions, "better you throw your hand into the city dump to be burned than you molest or assualt someone and your whole body (when you've been stoned or what not) to be burned there..
..backslidden are like sticks and briers, which are good for nothing but to be burned.. the sticks, because they are
so dry..and interesting on the Lazarus parable.. the use of phrases.. Interesting thread..
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
ET doctrine has its origins in Greek and Roman myths, and the translations, using those mythological names, were done that way on purpose(imo) to promote those false doctrines of the reigning orthodoxies of the time. Same thing with the King James Version. It was eternal torment in Hades(Greek) but also
the doctrine was eternal torment in Inferno(Latin for Hades).
..and they wanted to grow and be a more powerful force in their world (whether for good or evil, i suppose there would be some persons of both) so they mixed the pagan in with the new faith-which had conquered those old 'gods' - instead of a 'god' of travel, there was now a saint.. 'gods' for this and that became saints and angels.. even feasts/holidays were blended.. and the same horn became antichrist in its day and persecuted (inquisitioned) the faith.. geesh! (tho they were somewhat carried out on both sides of the conflict..)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 16, 2014, 12:34:48 AM
I think don't think the Greek translators were teaching mythology. I think they were subject to Greek philosophy and culture and it came through their theology into the translation. But really, the Latin mythology is the most potent one in regards to contemporary "hell" and eternal torment.
Hades was a place of darkness.
Inferno was a place of active torments and flames of agony.
We look to the Greek translations because we feel that we can gain an insight passing through the prejudices and errors of the KJV. We don't pay much attention to the Latin Vulgate, because most of us have protestant backgrounds, but most of the pervasive theology of today may have been Greek in origin- but it was LATIN in development and enforcement upon the world.
Thats why i teach that we have to reach back into Hebrew thought in order to pass through the prejudices and errors of the Greeks, and even moreso, the Romans, because while the prevailing common language of translation may be Greek, the prevailing theology is Roman/Latin.
The Vulgate is a late fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible that became, during the 16th century, the Catholic Church's officially promulgated Latin version of the Bible.
The translation was largely the work of St. Jerome, who, in 382, was commissioned by Pope Damasus I to revise the Vetus Latina ("Old Latin") collection of Biblical texts in Latin then in use by the Church. Once published, it was widely adopted and eventually eclipsed the Vetus Latina and, by the 13th century, was known as the "versio vulgata" (the "version commonly-used") or, more simply, in Latin as vulgata or in Greek as βουλγάτα ("Vulgate").
It was made the Catholic Church's official Latin Bible as a consequence of the Council of Trent
I shudder to think how many replies I've posted here in a row, so i'll have to truly force myself not to write any more.. but I just hAd to "quote" and comment on this post, as it is VERY interesting!! I'm sure there will be plenty more but I am determined to ignore them! :laughing7:
Quote from: joeteekay on November 16, 2014, 05:49:51 AM
Perhaps Rome ruined Christianity. But I would suggest that it was pre-destined to be that way. It was necessary for God's purpose to be served.
:2c:
I think it's a bit of a paradox. I think God knows the natural progression of all things.. in all possibilities.. I think He has assigned all their role.. yet also the best way for truth to be proven, is to let things run their course.. so, for instance, where I do not think He designed WW2, He, as the only source of life, brought it to pass.. and He also as to goodness, stepped back. He steps back to allow things to roll out in their natural course.. even tho He is interfering.. by the cross! by the flood.. by the Commandments.. the confusing the languages.. by leading Israel.. This life I think is an unavoidable journey and lesson (if we're to be rational creatures as opposed to robots).. I think judgment day is an age, that immediately follows the age of the millenium..
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
Just thinking of the scripture that says,God is a consuming fire. Then comparing that,to when God saved me. God let me know I was lost-not in a right relationship with God. And God let me see,that I was in the presence of God. And I knew,it was holy God. I knew God was holy. And God let me see my sinfullness,my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me see the both of those and in contrast, God and God's holiness and me and my sinful selfrighteousness.
..imagine that - as one unsaved, and has been resurrected still in their sins.. And standing before the Holy God (in all His Purity, and in all His love and tenderness..) with full consciousness of all their flaws and wrong doings.. and some pretty horrific things have been done through history.. no lack of weeping and wailing on that day, even some gnashing of teeth i would gather.. We're not told a lot about judgment day.. I think there is some confusing of it with judgments which occur in history and on the earth, much like "day of the LORD" is confused with Jesus' return/arrival when it is said the day of the LORD comes like a thief in the night does.. God bless.
Quote from: RonnyTX on November 17, 2014, 06:21:54 PM
And that was the goodness of God,that brought me to repentance. That is,I saw,understood and agreed with everything God showed to me,both about God and myself. And it was painful,very painful,to see and understand,my own sinful selfrighteousness. To me,this is God,our God who is a consuming fire, burning out of me,that which needed to be burnt out,burnt up. So in my being born of God,God quite literally,cast me into fire. No,not one that could be seen with the human eye;but certainly one,that I could feel. And that was not meaness on God's part;but instead,it was because of the love of God for me and at that particular time,God expressing God's love for me,in the exact way I needed. And this is what I see,that God will do for every person,be it in this age or the ages to come. That is,when God,the goodnes of God, decides to bring a particular person to repentance towards God,then God will give to that particular person,
exactly what they need,for that to come about. And then,when God,the goodness of God has brought that person to repentance towards God-agreement with what God is showing them about both God and themself,when God brings that particular person to see and agree with such and they do see and agree with God,then at that time,the love of God will began flowing out upon that person. :-) And when God does that for the person,God will also show them,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,taking their sins,upon himself! :-)
This is beautifully expressed,in a verse from that old song,Amazing Grace. "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed."
:-)
This is speculative but, there are some verses that are very interesting. The scripture says when he appears..... evey eye will see him even those who pierced him......The veil in the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll..... Many will say to the rocks and the caves, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is in the throne".....
I think one reason why the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night is that the thief surprises you when it is dark out, takes all you have, leaves you with nothing......
But you are not children of darkness that it should take you like a thief.....
Walk in the day, as children of the light and the thief will not surprise you.
I think the thief is death. I think everyone who dies awakens at their appointed resurrection- mostly at the Great White Throne, in the presence of the one whose face shines like the sun in its strength- His face will be the mirror in which they see who they really are and some will hide and recoil and some will rejoice.
It could all take place in a momnet, or a twinkling of an eye, or it could take a 1000 years(with the Lord a thousand years is as a day)...
I think the thief is death. I think everyone who dies awakens at their appointed resurrection- mostly at the Great White Throne, in the presence of the one whose face shines like the sun in its strength- His face will be the mirror in which they see who they really are and some will hide and recoil and some will rejoice.
It could all take place in a momnet, or a twinkling of an eye, or it could take a 1000 years(with the Lord a thousand years is as a day)...
[/quote] eaglesway
I so agree. When we finally come face to face with God, we will see ourselves through his eyes. And, I cannot image that we will be able to have any more deceptions or lies about who we are, and what is holy, at that meeting. :iagree:
Our private curtains of the temple of who we are will be torn, and there will be no separation between us and God, any longer.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12
I think "every eye" will see him maybe due to modern technology that provides real time global video communication. I think the thing with the "thief in the night" is it's a matter of sudden surprise. I think believers will be manifested in front of the dais of Christ and get wages for our good works, but our bad works will be burned up. I think only unbelievers will be judged at the great white throne before they go into the second death-the lake of fire, and they won't be vivified until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. Regarding the original post, I think "heaven" and "hell" are both real but misunderstood due to mistranslation and misinterpretation through church doctrine. I think the important thing to know is that "hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls, not torture in fire forever.
Quote from: Tom on May 17, 2015, 05:18:08 PM
I think "heaven" and "hell" are both real but misunderstood due to mistranslation and misinterpretation through church doctrine. I think the important thing to know is that "hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls, not torture in fire forever.
Yes, but if you admit that "Hell is real," the fire-forever crowd will just say, "Well, there you go, he admits that Hell is real," and you've gained nothing. It it so hard to get through to them as it is, and I sometimes think it would be easier to convince them of almost anything else. It's an uphill fight, given that we are heretics from the get-go. I feel very divergent in other areas as well, so much so that all I have left in common with other Christians is Jesus the Christ, but that is enough...
Tom, this is why I spend hours striving to NOT find Hell in the text of the Bible, for the fire-forever folks do respect that (the Bible, I mean, not my feeble efforts).
I hear ya, bro, and even their perception of Jesus Christ is distorted. I think, when we talk about "hell," we have to make sure hellfire folks know we're talking about something different, which like you say is hard to get across to them because of their programming, but I think it's necessary to expose the lie of their common misconception by telling it like it is about what the Old English word actually represents despite the crazy horror story that's been attached to it by the church. It would also help if those who are still trapped by the deception traded in their King James for a more accurate translation.
https://youtu.be/7nuumICiIjM
:cloud9: If you look up the word for lake as in lake of fire, it has a connected meaning of "haven" as in a safe haven or port in a storm. Moses saw fire that didn't destroy, and so did the 3000 on the day of Pentecost.
So why it's such a stretch to believe that it's a refiner's fire, that only removes the dross, I don't know. And the dross isn't even us in the first place. It's all the parasitic spirits we were both born with (generational curses) and picked up in the course of living in this realm.
Luckily, while we're still here walking around, we were told to both shake this "dust" off our feet, and also to wash it off ie. we're washing it off HIS FEET (those walking Him around in them).
Once we are not "here" anymore, then a more stringent method is needed to do what we did not while alive, to dislodge our "stowaways", who cling to our souls so as not to fall into their ultimate abode, which WILL hurt them because the fire only destroys what is not like God (we were made in His image and likeness). My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2015, 11:39:04 PM
:cloud9: If you look up the word for lake as in lake of fire, it has a connected meaning of "haven" as in a safe haven or port in a storm. Moses saw fire that didn't destroy, and so did the 3000 on the day of Pentecost.
So why it's such a stretch to believe that it's a refiner's fire, that only removes the dross, I don't know. And the dross isn't even us in the first place. It's all the parasitic spirits we were both born with (generational curses) and picked up in the course of living in this realm.
Luckily, while we're still here walking around, we were told to both shake this "dust" off our feet, and also to wash it off ie. we're washing it off HIS FEET (those walking Him around in them).
Once we are not "here" anymore, then a more stringent method is needed to do what we did not while alive, to dislodge our "stowaways", who cling to our souls so as not to fall into their ultimate abode, which WILL hurt them because the fire only destroys what is not like God (we were made in His image and likeness). My :2c: Blessings....
Well said! :iagree:
EXACTLY!!!
..."look up the word for lake" where, sis? I'm familiar with "haven," but I don't see the connection anywhere.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
:cloud9: It's been so long I don't remember if it's in the Hebrew or the Greek, but it's in there.....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2015, 03:36:58 AM
:cloud9: It's been so long I don't remember if it's in the Hebrew or the Greek, but it's in there.....
:thumbsup:
this was a study done years ago with Graham , I remember it well :HeartThrob:
strong's
Lake Probably from λιμήν (G3040) (through the idea of nearness of shore)Lexicon :: Strong's G3040 - limēn
λιμήν
Transliteration
limēn
Pronunciation
lē-mā'n (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently a root word
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
a harbour, havenKJV Translation Count —
Total: 3xThe KJV translates Strongs G3040 in the following manner: haven (2x), the fair havens (with G2570) (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
G3040
Word / Phrase / Strong's Search
:cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2015, 04:41:39 PM
:cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Me too, more than you know sis :icon_flower: His flower , He is with us as a witness to Gods Glory though the veil , through the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE :HeartThrob:
that is to say Christ Flesh
Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.
I'm not a fan of Strong's because it's the concordance of the King James, but I check it out once in awhile. What I got from "lake" was H3220 and G3041, but I didn't see anything about "haven" even though I know a port at sea is considered a "haven," and "sea" and "lake" seem to be kind of interchangeable in the Hebrew scriptures. I see H2348 for "haven" which I think indicates that it's a port in a "sea" or "lake." I think the confusion comes in with Acts 27:12 that uses G3040 which looks like it could be "harbor" or "lake" and is translated "haven" in the King James. It's actually a different but similarly looking word than the one right after it which means "lake," G3040 "limen" and G3041 "limne." So I see how that happened.
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Quote from: rosered on May 18, 2015, 05:12:29 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2015, 04:41:39 PM
:cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Me too, more than you know sis :icon_flower: His flower , He is with us as a witness to Gods Glory though the veil , through the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE :HeartThrob:
that is to say Christ Flesh
Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.
:cloud9: I know. It's so hard to lose a true friend in the Spirit because they are so few, ya know? He was like a literal brother to me. I'll never understand why God didn't heal him. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: @ Tom....I have a Strong's that's 30 years old and I wouldn't trade it for 100 of the new ones. They have "improved" it and taken out or "tweaked" so many meanings that were in the older one, that it is astounding.
And maybe it's just me, but I've stumbled over many a pattern by looking at related words. Most of the Hebrew are made from 3 root letters, and seeing how God's thoughts flowed from one person, place or thing from those roots, is eye-opening to say the least, sometimes. Blessings....
I understand, sis, and I use Strong's for comparison once in a blue moon just as I use the King James for comparison on the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. I just think we need to be mindful of what we're looking at when we do because that version of scripture is not only considered to be the infallible word of God by a lot of folks, but it's played a big part in propagating church doctrine about "hell." I realize there's no perfect translation, but that's why I don't really rely on the King James or Strong's for the truth, just mostly as the perspective of church doctrine occasionally. I don't mean to offend folks when I say that because I know some consider their King James to be sacred. I used to be a die hard King James fan, but I had to give it up when I became aware of the inaccuracies.Then I read Young's Literal Translation until I became aware of a few things it shares with the King James. I think that's because of the Textus Receptus manuscript. I became aware of the Concordant Version and have been using it since even though it isn't popular for a few reasons, but I think it's the most accurate I've seen. Even the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer uses the Textus Receptus exclusively now, but that's a result of the threat of litigation for copyright violation from another manuscript that was used. You just have to know why you're looking at what you're looking at so you don't get carried away with a misconception due to some mistranslation, some which is intentional, and I would even call forgery. But I know we need to be somewhat skeptical about everything we read. It took me awhile to believe universal reconciliation after I first became aware of it. I had to do a lot of reading online before I really became convinced by the overwhelming evidence supported by an accurate translation of scripture. That's why I think it's so important to only use as accurate a translation as you can get hold of so you really know the truth. Anyway, I want you to know I wasn't trying to mess with you about that word study. I just needed to find out what's up because I'd never heard that particular association before. I think it's always good to learn something new and see different perspectives.
:cloud9: I agree with you, I think some of it is intentional and there's a lot to be recommended in looking into other versions for comparison. I just got one of those versions and was surprised at how much I like it. I've always read KJV because of Strongs. Just shows it's not really ever too late to teach an old dog new tricks. :winkgrin: :laugh:
I was also a die-hard KJV fan for a long time. Then along came the Ferrar Fenton Version, which I liked, except that Hell was prominent. The NAS and the NIV were a disappointment, as was the NKJV and the KJV II (done by computer, no less). In time I acquired a Strong's, and later a Young's, and not so long ago a YLT. I'm considering a Concordant.
I was an "old dog," sis, when I became aware of universal reconciliation and the Concordant Version. I recommend it to you both. You don't even have to buy it. Here's the link, and there's a concordance at the end of the New Testament.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
Here are links to the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer and Commentary Browser that synchronize.
http://www.scripture4all.org/
http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm
:cloud9: Thanks :thumbsup:
Maybe we can make it easy on you... or not ;)
The word for hell in the OT is שאול sheol. Those letters in that order occur 477 times with various prefixes and suffixes. The problem is that when they occur, they are not translated the same way each time. But without modern vowels, which were added around 600 AD, two hundred year after the Jews were nudged out of the church, there was no way to tell them apart. They are all שאול.
Strong reduces them to roots, which also hides the fact that they are identical morphology. You can reference his numbers 7585, 7586, 7587, 7592 but need to reference that against a Hebrew text. because the other roots also take other forms. Since I don't consider Strong an apostle, his Hebrew in not necessarily inspired ;)
So you get שאול translated as grave, hell, pit, Saul, Shaul, desired, ask, enquire, require, borrow, salute, etc.
But it is an easy thing to find 477 mentions of hell שאול ;)
Consider Saul, how many times did Saul chase David and attempt to kill him? How many times did hell pursue David? and as a type of Christ did Hell pursue Christ?
I throw these out just as considerations if you are attempting an exhaustive consideration of hell in the OT.
The real question is what is the objective reality of שאול. But it is all over the OT.
:cloud9: 2 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteThe real question is what is the objective reality of שאול. But it is all over the OT.
Hi Bob ,, For me ...Death reigned in the old because everyone is very dark/ ignorant of God
fear of the unknown , unseen , a low place , the pits
Death swallowed up the lives
Because Life is " a presence thing " it is all around us ,but mostly unnoticed or more of," taken for granted ."
Your quality of Life , I recall when very small child how a death effected me personally and how it got into my head , by a thought that had never entered my mind before that...
And how grief and pain become apart of "life " from that point on .... and how life is fleeting
And than the questions , the thousands of questions
Who is God .. etc.
The first consideration in an exhaustive examination of "hell" is to realize that hell does not really exist in the scriptures when properly translated.
Considering what the words mean- sheol and hell do not mean the same thing, and what "hell" means was never in scripture.
When the average person hears the word "hell" they think of eternal torment in a burning place of torture.
When a person comes to understand sheol- there is no such meaning involved.
To list all the verses in which "hell" occurs (KJV primary exercise I guess) would be fruitless.
To list all the verses in which sheol occurs, having a proper definition of sheol in the foreground- would be immensely useful, because it clarifies this issue of the non-existence of hell(wrong translation of sheol)
Then you can deal with gehenna, and the lake of fire, and aionian pyr from a foundation at least moderately free from this overiding deception that hell is in the Bible 500 times. gehenna is in the bible, I think 8 or ten times includng several duplications in the gospels. The lake of fire is mentioned maybe 3 times, and Jesus mentions aionian pyr(olam esh or fire of the age to come or fire of the world to come) a half dozen times, also including duplications in the gospels.
:2c:
I Kings, chapters 1 – 2
The dying David instructs Solomon to not let the aged Joab die a natural death, but to have him killed: "...let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace." (2:6) Solomon extends mercy to Shimei, but he disobeys instructions, and is put to death. Nothing, as usual, is said about their fate after death except burial and the grave, which is always a limit beyond which no more punishment or suffering is possible
Chapers 3 – 22
Compared with the books of Samuel, the narrative stretches out here, and points us forward to the Books of Chronicles. We see the usual accounts of battles, death, and burial, but nothing relevant to our thesis.
Hell is not to be found in the book of I Kings.
II Kings, chapter 1
King Ahaziah sent 102 men to summon Elijah, but the prophet called fire down from heaven to consume them. As I pointed out in an earlier instance of fire from heaven, this cannot be Hell-fire, and should not be used by the fire-forever advocates.
Hell is not to be found, then, in the book of II Kings.
I Chronicles and II Chronicles
The books of Chronicles cover much the same history as the books of Samuel and Kings. We see kings following kings, the kingdom of Israel producing not a single good king, and the kingdom of Judah being blessed with a few. Perhaps as a result of those few good kings, the Judah kingdom is carried off into exile much later than ten-tribed Israel. We see death and the grave, but nothing beyond – therefore,
Hell is not to be found in the books of Chronicles.
Ezra
This book is concerned with the return of a few thousand of Judah and Benjamin from exile. They were charged to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, on orders of the Persian king Cyrus, who was probably a Zoroastrian. Nothing relevant to our thesis is present in the book, so,
Hell is not to be found in the book of Ezra.
Job, chapters 1 - 2
Now, this is unexpected – Satan shows up among the "sons of God" in both chapters, and tells God that he has come before God, not from Hell, but from running around on the earth. This happens twice, so it's not an isolated incident. We see two things here – one is that, as we saw in Genesis, the creation is not a prey between God and Satan, but a hierarchy of God, the cosmos, the heavens, the earth, man, etc. Also, note that Satan did NOT ask God if he could just drag Job down to Hell. Now what kind of lapse is that? Lots of folks would tell you that that is what Satan wants to do all the time with everyone. Oh, maybe there was no Hell to drag Job down to? Maybe Satan is only the Prince of Heck...
For his part, after his wife tells him to "curse God, and die," Job upbraids her: "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" (Job 2:9 – 10) Satan is evil, but we see him here conferring with God, the Author of both Good and Evil. Is it just possible that Satan is a servant of God, of the "Evil Division"?
Chapter 3
Job laments that he is not dead, but depicts death as simple rest from woe, not a place of fiery suffering. He is speaking of Sheol, where all go: the grave.
Chapters 4 – 5
Job 5:20 states, "In famine he shall redeem thee from death..." God redeems from death, not Hell or even Purgatory. Job 5:26 says, "Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age..." Again, as before, the grave is depicted as man's final destination, the resurrection seeming not to be much in people's awareness in those days.
Chapters 6 - 10
Looking further on the theory of man's final place, we see in Job 7:9 "...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Also see Job 10:21 "...I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death..."
Chapters 11 – 18
Job 11:8 contains the word "Hell" in the KJV, but again, it should have been translated as Sheol, the grave, or the unseen.
Job 18:15 mentions "...brimstone shall be scattered upon his habitation," and the Helliolater is grasping at straws if he thinks this indicates Hellfire – in Job's time and place, sulfur (brimstone) was used to purify, either scattered like salt or burned. No Hell here.
Chapter 19
Key verse here: "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." We can rejoice here to see that Job foresaw a new life beyond the grave, even though he had earlier said that he would not return from it. This is surely one of the earliest hints of the resurrection of the dead.
Chapters 20 – 37
Job shows us the ultimate outcome of God's dealings with us: "...he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold." (23:10)
"Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering." (26:6) "Hell" here should be translated as the grave, sheol, the unseen.
Chapters 38 - 42
God speaks at last and mentions the gates of death and the shadow of death in verse 17, but there is no mention of conscious torment in fire – just death, as He had Adam, Eve, and many others of.
Hell is not to be found in the book of Job.
Amen and Amen! :dsunny:
Laz,
Job was especially good ! :thumbsup:
Pat
Thank you, and thank you. :URWelcome:
The book of Job was tiresome - I think I got as tired of what Job's friends had to say as God did... :footmouth:
A portion from the post of Laz:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 02, 2015, 02:08:24 PM
Chapter 19
Key verse here: "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." We can rejoice here to see that Job foresaw a new life beyond the grave, even though he had earlier said that he would not return from it. This is surely one of the earliest hints of the resurrection of the dead.
I have a thought regarding what Job said in verse 19:26. He said in his flesh he shall see God.
Job 19:26
KJV And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet i
n my flesh shall I see God: CLV And behind my skin I will stand erect, And fro
m my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
The only way I can understand this is to think he was refering to the second resurrection and him being there.
This suggests that he will not be in the first resurrection. Job, although he was righteous, did not have Christ living in him and thus was not one of the Elect IMO. However he did know that Christ would come as Saviour of the world as mentioned in verse 25. Some have speculated that King David will be in the first resurrection, but I disagree for this same reason as well as other reasons.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
If Job knew he would be resurrected in the flesh, he also knew he would not be imortal as a spiritual Son of God until sometime after his fleshly resurrection. So this could mean that he will be in the second resurrection, the
White Throne Judgment, also refered to as the resurrection to judgment. So would he be resurrected along with billions of others, even with the evil doers and wicked who died in their sins? All to be chastized by the purifying Lake of Fire. Some with few strips, some with many.
Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall
rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
So can we speculate that the
White Throne Judgment period will be on earth and those in the second resurrection will be raised as mortal beings, in the flesh. All will be purged in the Lake of Fire before being chaged into spiritual Sons of God. Also tying into this is the valley of dry bones in Ezekel 37. Also, no one in this eon can see God and live Exodus 33:20. This may not be so in the White Throne Judgment period.
Or do we need to take much of this as metaphorical or figurative, which I do not like to do, since I lean more to the literal side in studying scripture?
Rev 20:11 And I saw a
great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I agree with this part.....For by Grace.....Grace came with Jesus Christ.
"I have a thought regarding what Job said in verse 19:26. He said in his flesh he shall see God.
Job 19:26
KJV And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
CLV And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
The only way I can understand this is to think he was refering to the second resurrection and him being there.
This suggests that he will not be in the first resurrection. Job, although he was righteous, did not have Christ living in him and thus was not one of the Elect IMO. However he did know that Christ would come as Saviour of the world as mentioned in verse 25. Some have speculated that King David will be in the first resurrection, but I disagree for this same reason as well as other reasons."
The rest of your statement I am not able to speak on. But I appreciate your thoughts. :dsunny:
Dont want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered about this....
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Mt 8:10 "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Dont want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered about this....
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Mt 8:10 "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
Hmm...the Aramaic reads a bit different:
מֵטֻל דַּאלָהָא קַדֵּם חָר בּעוּדרָנַן דִּילַן דּלָא בֵּלעָדַין נֵתגַּמרוּן
Because of Alaha honing in our help before that they would not be polished without us. My literal translation.
In other words, God decided beforehand (honed in) to polish (make perfect) them by means of us (the ones he is writing to). It appears as though believers would be used as part of the process of polishing. This would easily take place with those in the first resurrection for those who are not part of it.
If this is indeed a hijack, perhaps move it to another thread?
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 08, 2015, 07:15:01 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Dont want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered about this....
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Mt 8:10 "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
Hmm...the Aramaic reads a bit different:
מֵטֻל דַּאלָהָא קַדֵּם חָר בּעוּדרָנַן דִּילַן דּלָא בֵּלעָדַין נֵתגַּמרוּן
Because of Alaha honing in our help before that they would not be polished without us. My literal translation.
In other words, God decided beforehand (honed in) to polish (make perfect) them by means of us (the ones he is writing to). It appears as though believers would be used as part of the process of polishing. This would easily take place with those in the first resurrection for those who are not part of it.
If this is indeed a hijack, perhaps move it to another thread?
Ronen
I suppose I am guilty of the hijack. I took a scripture in Laz's post #165 and built an idea on it. I really should have started a new thread and perhaps titled i "Who will be in the first resurrection". :dontknow: SORRY
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
That is how I see it, and don't worry about the thread hijack.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2015, 01:33:36 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
That is how I see it, and don't worry about the thread hijack.
Wow, I so misread that. The word 'overcomers' did not register with me. I had this thought of everyone being in the first resurrection, not just the overcomers.
:doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Dont want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered about this....
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
I've been pondering that very verse...
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Mt 8:10 "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
...I think so.. :2c: ..as the Old Testament saints/believers were forgiven through the animal sacrifices as representing the one sacrifice when Jesus was lifted up on the cross..
:2c:
"Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it."
:dontknow: :Chinscratch:
:cloud9: Check out Peter Demetris's videos on YouTube. He has a lot of wisdom on the overcomers....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 09, 2015, 06:28:09 PM
:cloud9: Check out Peter Demetris's videos on YouTube. He has a lot of wisdom on the overcomers....
Thanks Card. I found Peter Demetris's videos but is there one inparticular that deals with the topic of overcomers?
:Peace2:
:cloud9: I haven't watched them but I know Peter personally for over 25 years now and his site (which I think is down now) has a lot of his writings on it. He's like no one you've ever heard before when he gets going. One of the best true teachers out there that doesn't care what religion has to say if it contradicts the Word of God. Blessings...
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 09, 2015, 02:18:48 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2015, 01:33:36 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
That is how I see it, and don't worry about the thread hijack.
Wow, I so misread that. The word 'overcomers' did not register with me. I had this thought of everyone being in the first resurrection, not just the overcomers.
:doh:
To me, there could be no second resurrection if everyone went in the first.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 15, 2015, 09:44:03 AM
To me, there could be no second resurrection if everyone went in the first.
Yes, as I said, I misunderstood what you wrote until after I posted my first response. :doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Dont want to hijack the thread, but I have wondered about this....
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Mt 8:10 "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Makes me think the overcomers from all the ages will participate in the first rez, but I am not sure about it.
Personally that's my thought on it too. I think it's altogether in one body at one moment.
Yea, I also think Paul's example of the olive tree in Romans is another example of a oneness that goes all the way back to Abel.
:Chinscratch:
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
If Jesus attributed the Jews lineage to Cain(spiritually) I think it likely that our (spiritual) lineage is traced through Abel- who Jesus place in the company of prophets for whom Jerusalem(earthly) was responsible for their bloodshed(along with His own). So I think the first martyr was Abel, who prophesied of a Lamb slain in His offereing to God(my opinion). That would make Abel the first seed sown after the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the beginning of the redeeming blood of the prophets and martyrs that cries out from the ground for the redemtion and restoration of the creation.
"Come quickly Lord Jesus!.....How long O Lord!"
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
:cloud9: I think the seed/tree of both Cain and Abel are in all of us. Cain always seeks to murder the quickening spirit within us, to prevent us from adding faith to the Word/breathed so it's unprofitable. The Jews that were against Him were indeed doing their father's business, since Satan, who planted seed in Eve, produced Cain, and thus the flesh wars against the Spirit continually. My :2c: Blessings....
If Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil and attributed to them Cain versus Abraham as their father, I think He was speaking to something other than the daily struggle between flesh and spirit we undergo. We are children of God, born, not of the will of the flesh or the will of man but of God. Begotten from above by the incorruptible seed of the word of God..... so our heritage is traced through Abel to Abraham to Christ, through whom the old man(in whom Cain lives) is crucified- and we are reckoning him dead and mortifying his voice and his works in ourselves by the Spirit.
"If you do by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live."
The mystery is to "Be still, and know that I am God"..... so tht Cain has no cause or means to rise up again :o)
So(imo) any residual of Cain in us is just that old man whispering from the grave, trying to rise up and pull us down with him into death.
Speaking allegorically, tho, I see your point.
:Peace2:
Now for this book, I only dealt with the Psalms which were of interest to my thesis, that being that the Damnationist Hell is not to be found in the Bible.
Psalm 1
"...the way of the ungodly shall perish." Note that it does not say that the ungodly shall perish, but the final answer to that is still a long ways off.
Psalm 5
On the other hand, we have this: "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing [falsehood]..." However, it is not said that God destroys them in Hell. Again, the final answer is ahead of us.
Psalm 6
Eternal torture in Hell implies consciousness after death, but verse 5 contradicts it: "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
Psalm 7
David asks God, not to bring an end to the wicked, but to "...let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end."
Psalm 9
Hell again – verse 17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell..." It should be sheol, the grave, the unseen.
Psalm 16
Verse 10 gets the same comment as Psalm 9:17.
Psalm 18
Verse 5 gets the same comment as Psalm 9:17.
Psalm 30
Verse 3 mentions the grave and the pit – these could just as well have been translated as "Hell," for it is the same word in Hebrew. Some may not agree, but I see inconsistent translation as bad translation.
Psalm 49
Verses 7-9, "...none...can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (for the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:) that he should still live for ever, and not see corruption." seem a bit obscure, but the YLT renders it better: "A brother doth no one at all ransom, He doth not give to God his atonement. And precious is the redemption of their soul, and it hath ceased – to the age. And still he liveth for ever, He seeth not the pit."
There it is, made plain, at least a lot plainer than the KJV – death is temporary, for an age, but life in the resurrection is truly forever.
Verse 15 is very plain: "...God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me."
Psalm 55
David says in verse 15, "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell..." Now in the English of the KJV, "quick" means alive, and of course "hell" should have been rendered as sheol, etc. What David is really saying is that his enemies should go alive into their graves. Hell theology says those who go to Hell, go there after they are dead, but David flatly contradicts this. He is merely wishing a fate for some much like happened to Korah and his followers in Numbers, chapter 16.
Psalm 63
In verse 9, David states that his enemies "...shall go into the lower parts of the earth." Given what we have seen so far, this is better interpreted as a deep grave or "six feet under," versus a shallow grave. I know a strong tradition exists of Hell being deep in the so-called bowels of the Earth. In fact the Earth is hotter deep down, but no one, no matter how deep he has drilled or mined, has found Hell. Sound recordings of things in deep drill cores - interpreted as being the screams of the damned - are unconfirmed and may just be fraudulent. God has a term for such things, and that would be "vain imaginings." Things are what they are, and are most probably not Hell.
Psalm 69
Verse 15 gives us "...neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me." My comments on Psalm 63 apply here. I'll just add that the Psalmist giving the pit (grave) a mouth is just the usual kind of poetic imagery we see in all the Bible's poetry.
Psalm 86
Hell again, in verse 13: "...thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." My KJV, in the reference & translation section between the two text columns, gives this as "depths of Sheol," and that is just the way it should be – sheol, grave, pit.
Psalm 88
Verses 3 to 6: "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength. Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps." If we keep in mind the parallelism of Hebrew poetry, it should be obvious that grave, pit, darkness, and deeps are all used to convey the same idea, and the horrors of Hell are not a part of it. Christians should read the Word with their inner eye, not through the filter of theology. Dig to the bottom in the Hebrew, so to speak, and it's always Sheol, the unseen. Hell was inserted much later.
Psalm 92
Verse 7 tells us "...the wicked...and...the workers of iniquity...shall be destroyed for ever." This seems to lean toward annihilationism, and in fact it reminds me of the second death experience in the Lake of Fire in the Revelation. That fate seems final and sad, but it is not the end of the story. Stay tuned.
Psalm 115
Verse 17, "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." contradicts the common belief in life after death, or more accurately, life during death. Surely there is life after death, due to the resurrection, but this psalmist agrees with Solomon, that the dead are really dead. There is no way to reconcile this with conscious torment in Hell, as many churches declare as being true.
Psalm 116
Here's that pesky "hell" word in verse 3 – as ever, it's Sheol. Just death here, folks, and the realm of death – the grave, the pit, dust, decay, and worms.
Psalm 139
Verse 8 gives us "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there..." Well and good so far, but here heaven is not paired with the earth, for "...if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." As ever, "hell" here is better translated as "Sheol." That is not all – there are here issues deeper and darker. As I explained elsewhere, to think that anyone can exist in Hell is close to blasphemy, for the simple reason that for you to be alive here, there, anywhere, even Hell, you must have the spirit/breath of Life in you, otherwise Hell is just kicking a dead horse, so to speak. Since the Spirit of Life comes from God, and since it is one of the Seven Spirits of God, the Hell theory is saying that part of God must be condemned to Hell with the damned – millions, billions of parts of God, each one contained in a "lost soul." God forbid!
However, back in Psalm 136 I just read (26 times!) this: "...his mercy endureth for ever." Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it, even in ignorance, relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, "Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are." (Yes I did read her book.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus' early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy. You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God's mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God's mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to eternal torture, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is, in a way, merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), BUT eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and Hell cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.
Hell is not to be found in the Psalms.
Very good study Laz. I like your related comments to your main thesis (i.e. such as "documented" screams from deep within the bowels of the earth of the damned - hell). Foolishness of course.
Thank you - I am using all the writing skills I've picked up during my life, including trying to keep the language fresh. In doing so, I have come up with terms like "fire-forever crowd," "Damnationist," "Hellolater," and am thinking about epithets such as "Sheeple Dip," (compared with Sheep Dip), a term I thought up the other day. Even if you are correct, if you can't write well enough to keep their attention, you lose them. :sigh:
Proverbs
At the end of Ecclesiastes (12:12), Solomon states "...of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Job was tiring, but these Proverbs add a whole new dimension, as Solomon seems to use every possible permutation of:
pursue wisdom, understanding, prudence, favor with God, that-which-is-good; work hard, be diligent;
avoid the wicked, fools, the unwise, the angry, strange women, evil, sloth, and strong drink.
For all the wisdom presented, I dare say that Solomon here makes Shakespeare's Polonius seem taciturn. The other two writers of Proverbs, Agur and Lemuel, are happily much less verbose.
I note here a new wrinkle on "hell." In two places, Proverbs 15:11 and 27:20, we see the phrase "Hell and destruction." Harking back to the Hebrew, it would read sheol and abaddon. Looking up meanings, I see that abaddon is properly translated as "destruction," but instead of a proper translation of sheol as "grave," it is rendered as "Hell." I suspect theological bias, so just think "The grave and destruction are never full," and leave it at that.
Here's a list of chapters and verses of Proverbs, with "sheol" mistranslated as "hell": 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11 & 24, 23:14, 27:20, and 30:16.
This writer could not find Hell in the Proverbs.
Ecclesiastes
Solomon has much to say here about life, death, and futility, but what touches our subject is in Chapter 9, verses 5-10: "...the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun...for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
Do you see? Do you grasp that there is no reward, good or ill – just non-existence? Conscious survival after death is here excluded. Further, Solomon tells us (12:6-7) "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." He is, through poetic language, describing the moment of death and the fate of body and Spirit, the soul already having ceased in its existence. That is why Solomon does not mention the soul here as such. As I wrote elsewhere, when the living person (soul) dies, the body returns to dust, and the breath/spirit (one of the seven Spirits of God) returns to God.
An honest translator cannot let this perishing in the grave (and it can be found in other places as well) go by, and at the same time, use the word "hell" with its implication of the dead living in conscious torment. To paraphrase Mark Twain, it's "Lies, damned lies, and bad translation."
Hell is not to be found, then, in Ecclesiastes.
Song of Solomon
We read of love, fruit, spices, fragrances, and so on, but not of Hell in this book.
Isaiah
The word "hell" first appears in this book in chapter 5, verse 14. My KJV dutifully notes "Or Sheol." We see hell/sheol again in 14:9 & 15, 28:15 & 18, and 57:9.
In Chapter six we read of Isaiah's vision of seeing God, where one of the Seraphim touches his lips with a live coal and declares "...thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged." (6:7) This is just another instance of fire serving as God's instrument to refine men, not to punish them. We will see this theme again.
Chapter 14 is mostly about Israel, Babylon, Assyria, and God's judgment on each. In the midst of all this are some verses about "Lucifer." Now we met up with Satan in the book of Job, and my KJV noted there that the name means "the adversary," which strikes me as a title, not a name. Yet here in Isaiah, most folks think it is the same person being referred to, but no this time it's Lucifer, and my KJV states that it literally means "Day Star." Going from the Adversary to the Day Star is quite a leap, and it's not likely to be the same person. Note that the context for this passage begins in verse 4: "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Then in verse 13, "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." Two verses later, however, judgment is given: "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit [grave]." In verse 16 the question is raised, "...is this the man...?" Now most of us have been taught that Satan is a spirit being, but this passage shows this person to be mortal. For this reason I believe the person referred to in this passage to be NOT Satan, but the king of Babylon. I don't care to stretch every text I can find to promote my thesis, unlike some. By the end of this essay, I think we will have found that Satan is a fairly minor character in the story, as he should be.
Now for the serious Bible student, I'd like to add a note of caution, to stay alert for the sleight-of-hand we so often find. First, as we saw above, is the bad translation: Adversary to Satan and Day Star to Lucifer. Then we get the bad interpretation, usually taken in a verse or two ripped from its proper context - in the present case, to point out the Devil wherever possible. Often, a look at the surrounding text will support the given interpretation, or not. If you understand the message and themes of the whole Word of God, you will tend to notice when "theo-illogical" tricks are being pulled.
After several chapters of the judgment of this nation or that, Isaiah tells us in 25:7 & 8, "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away the tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it." With death at that time swallowed up in victory, how can anyone be still dead, or for that matter, in Hell? Now if we can think of the "covering" and the "vail" above in terms of graveclothes, I think we can see what God is trying to tell us here. It all hinges on His intentions, and thus far He has not spoken of eternal torture in a fiery Hell.
Hope here, in 26:19, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." I see here no distinction between the righteous and the wicked dead. On the other hand, in chapter 28, we see an early reference, if we read between the prophetic lines, to the first and second resurrections of the dead. Isaiah writes of the planting of cumin, which is then threshed with a simple rod or staff. It's just like the twenty-third Psalm, in which David is comforted by God's rod and staff. The wheat, barley, and rye get a rougher treatment in the threshing here, needing a cart, an ox (Deuteronomy 25:4), or various threshing instruments to separate the grain (good) from the chaff (bad). It may be a bit off topic, but it is worth mentioning, as long as we are covering other theories on Hell, to also offer another view of the parables God offers us concerning the afterlife and the resurrection. You see, most folks are taught that the wheat and tares are good and bad people, as are the wheat and chaff, or the sheep and goats. Others contend the good parts of the individual person are represented by wheat, barley, and rye grains; and also by the gold, silver, precious gems left by the refining fire of God. The bad parts of us are typified by the chaff, blown away by the wind; by the tares, gathered together and burned; by the goats, culled from the sheep; or by the wood, hay, and stubble burned up by the same fire of God.
We arrive at 33:14 - "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" Now, this looks like a picture of Hell, but hold on, for remember that up to this point God has NOT ever threatened anyone with Hellfire. Yes, we have seen some killed with fire from God, but it was always fire in the real world, not in an unknown Hell. We today have an advantage over Isaiah, for we know of the Lake of Fire in the Revelation. We also know that the wicked, including sinners and hypocrites, are thrown into it, and that it is the second death. As I've said before, that is not the end of the story, and it all hinges on whether "everlasting burnings" is correct. The YLT renders the Hebrew here as "of the age," For reasons I will go into more detail later, "of the age" or "age-long" are more correct than "everlasting" simply because eternity does not begin for a very long time. The Lake of Fire itself takes place before the ages (as such) have expired, but that topic will have to wait until we cover the Revelation. A hint of what lies ahead is at the end of chapter 33 – "...the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." This is said of Zion, in a future time when no one is sick, and everyone in Zion, is given forgiveness, without conditions or exceptions. It does look like universal reconciliation...
Moving forward, among God's complaints of His people, Israel, either being lax in their devotions to Him, or practicing idolatry, we find that He fails to threaten them with Hellfire for these things. Many religious folks would relegate the wicked to Hell, but God continues to speak of forgiveness: "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." (43:25) "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee." (44:22) "Drop down ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and [not swallow up the wicked, but] let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it." (45:8)
God says of the House of Israel: "Behold, I have refined thee, but not ... [as] ... silver; I have ... [tested] ... thee in the furnace of affliction." (48:10) There is no point in God saving and forgiving His people unless He refines them, for He would just have the same pack of sinners. He admits this much, "There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked." (48:22) No peace for them, yet no mention of Hell, either.
In 65:17, God foretells His re-creation: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." As in Genesis there is no mention of a new Hell, so we see it is excluded in the future as well as the past. Again, in 66:22, He tells us: "...the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord..."
The very last verse of the book pulls us up short: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases [sic] of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh." This sounds very much like Jesus' warning to His listeners in the ninth chapter of the Gospel of Mark, where Jesus actually quoted Isaiah. I will treat this more fully later, but "Hell" in Mark 9 is footnoted as "Gehenna" in my KJV, and Gehenna is a place in the real world, so I question that Jesus could have been referring to Hell. Isaiah 66:24 also seems to be relating something to happen in the real world.
Isaiah writes much of the wicked, the ruin of the Israel/Judah of his day, but also much of the glorious future of God's people, the city of Jerusalem, and the world in general. Therefore, I think I can say with some confidence that Hell cannot be found in the book of Isaiah.
Your work is appreciated :dsunny:
Thank you! :gimmefive:
Jeremiah
The word "hell" is not found at all in this book, so we can go directly to 7:31, as follows: "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." Wow! God is not only saying that this action was outside what He had laid down as worship, but the burning alive of children was something that had never entered His own Mind. We now have more than a double witness that God did not create Hell, as we have read in Genesis 1:1, Deuteronomy 10:14, and Isaiah 65:17/66:22. We know from John 1:3 that no one else created Hell either. Now we know, too, that the concept of people suffering alive in a fire is foreign to Him. You just can not have, at the same time, a fiery, eternal Hell, and a God who never though of such a place. Given what we have so far, Hell is excluded, but we will keep looking, hopefully to be as exhaustive of this subject as a Strong's or Young's Concordance.
It's a bit off-topic, but chapter 10 has a short, but interesting, account of a practice called "vain or futile" – "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (10:3-4) I think this an early reference to what we today call a Christmas Tree. God calls it vanity/futility. I call it idolatry.
In 15:2, God indicates that no one can escape their fate: "Thus saith the Lord; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for captivity, to the captivity." God does not lie, and He fails to say "Such as are for Hell, to Hell." If Hell were so, He would have said so, just as Jesus stated in John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." As His Father did not, Jesus did not mention the existence of Hell, or any risk of going there. If there were, He would have said so, but His silence is another witness to the non-existence of Hell, we will cover what Jesus says, and does not say, presently.
After many chapters of prophecy, personal troubles, and recording of God's coming destruction on Israel, Judah, and the various nations in that part of the world, we find this gem in 51:5 – "...Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the Lord of Hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel." Happily, we see here hope and a hint of forgiveness, not a hint of Hell. In fact, in all the threats and promises of destruction, there is no threat or punishment beyond death, as ever.
Thus ends our brief coverage of the long book of Jeremiah, where hell, in word or concept, is not found.
Lamentations
As in Jeremiah's other book, the word "hell" is not to be found here. Now for those who subscribe to the "abandon all hope" version of Hell, I have chapter 3, verses 26-32. "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord...For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies." Hear that! God will not cast us, you, me, anybody, off forever. Are you not saved? It is temporary.
At the end of the same chapter, Jeremiah calls out to God as to his personal enemies in verses 64-66 – "Render unto them a recompence, O Lord, according to the work of their hands. Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them. Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the Lord." Hell or eternal torture/damnation are not asked for, so given that we have yet to find Hell up to this point, we MUST, if we are intellectually honest, restrict the meaning of "destroy...from under the heavens" to mean death at the worst.
The fate of Sodom & Gomorrah is often compared with Hell, but we have this word in 4:6 & 9 – "For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom...They that be slain with the sword are better [off] than they that be slain with hunger..." What happened to Sodom was fire of unknown origin, but it happened in the real world. The punishment of Judah and Jerusalem also played out in the real world, but Jeremiah notes that those killed by the sword were luckier than those who died of starvation, and these things played out in the real world as well. Those who believe the fate of Sodom was like Hell would have a hard time explaining how death by sword or starvation would be worse than an eternity in fire, but we have the witness of Jeremiah.
In chapter five, Jeremiah seems to contradict what he wrote earlier: "For the Lord will not cast off for ever..."
He says in verse 20, "Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?" I cannot say with authority that Jeremiah meant forever as we think of it today, but note that it parallels the "long time" in the second phrase.
At any rate, hell and Hell are not to be found in the book of Lamentations, though many would guess that Judah and Jerusalem were experiencing "Hell on Earth" after the Babylonian conquest. Bad times, no matter how bad, are not Hell, however.
Laz,
I, for one, really enjoy "Heaven, Yes...Hell, No".
I especially like all of those 'nuggets' you find for us during your research; and your honest commentary, as in this recent post.
Pat
excellant posts ,Brother,Laz.....
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Thank you all! :URWelcome:
Ezekiel
"Hell" is found four times in the book of Ezekiel:
31:16
31:17
32:21
32:27
As usual, it is translated from the same word, "sheol" the KJV renders as "grave," "pit," or "hell". This inconsistency can be found even in consecutive verses, such as 31:15-17. I don't care to delve into the whys and wherefores, but just note that it is so.
In Chapter 16, God describes Jerusalem as a cast-off foundling He saved. He goes on to recount all the good things He did for her, and compares her to her "sisters," Samaria and Sodom. God seems to say that Jerusalem became the worst of the lot, but then says in verse 55, "When thy sister, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." This is an amazing statement, for the people of Jerusalem were alive, the people of Samaria were in exile, but the people of Sodom were very much dead. Many would relegate them to Hell, but God Himself is saying that they will someday go back to their inheritance. How can this be, unless all are saved in the end?
In Chapter 18, we find God declaring that iniquity is individual, as is righteousness. Verse 20 states that, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Verse 23 goes on to say, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?" Then His advice in verse 31, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Note that there is no mention of Hell, but a broad hint that God overcomes sin and wickedness by giving humans a new heart, a new spirit. In other places God states that He will take out the stony heart from men and give them a heart of flesh instead. Man cannot do this – it must be done by God, as He spoke through Ezekiel, in 11:19: "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh."
Now here we are at Chapter 28, and I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyrus (Tyre) is actually Satan. No, sorry, for these reasons:
The previous two chapters were all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.
God says, "...thou art a man and not God..." (verse 2)
But if this prince was really Satan, don't you think God would have said so? No, literal city, literal prince, and a man at that.
Verse 8: "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die..." The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, being a spirit being.
Verse 13: "Thou hast been in Eden..." This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it's all in the context. See 27:23: "Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants." Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend.
In view of all the above I must confess that I find verse 14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, a puzzle, but I'm not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.
Not only was the prince of Tyre in Eden, but God, in Chapter 31 personifies Assyria as a great tree, "...so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him." (verse 9) Eden again, but it is more difficult to make a whole nation out to be Satan, so this gets ignored as a proof.
Chapter 31 goes on to speak of the death of the great tree of Assyria, and we have the usual words so often associated with "hell," such as "delivered unto death," "nether parts of the earth," "the pit," "the grave" and "the deep." In verse 15, "the grave" is footnoted as "Or sheol, hell." Then in verse 16 we do see "hell," but it is footnoted as "Or sheol." This inconsistency hides a dishonest translation and theological sleight of hand.
"Hell" is mentioned in Chapter 32 (18-32), but the language of the section makes it clear that the grave and death are being spoken of. The clincher is God stating that, "...I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." (verse 32) Nothing is said about any terror in the realm of the dead, Sheol.
Chapter 37 presents us with the valley of dry bones, the promise of the resurrection. Just as in Genesis, we see men re-created from dry bones as God puts flesh on them. Notice that the finished bodies do not have life until the breath/wind/spirit enters them – then they become "the whole house of Israel." This is a second witness to the creation of man in Genesis.
Chapters 38 and 39 cover the war of Gog and Magog - notice that of the 5/6ths of Gog's army which are killed, there is no mention of their fate beyond, death, just as ever, simple death.
So, that's it for the book of Ezekiel, where neither a fiery Hell, nor eternal torment can be found.
That's veRy good!! I love the whole idea of showing "no hell or torment" in each book of the bible! And I especially like the "no terror in the land of the dead" :)
Daniel
First off, the word "hell" is not found in the book. We do find a few fires, such as the furnace into which Daniel's three friends were thrown. However hot it was, it was in the literal world of here-and-now (or there-and-then), so it was not Hell. Also, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in alive, were alive in the fire (as attested by the king), and came out alive, so it was not Hell, since you must be dead to go to Hell. Further, One "like the Son of God" was in there with them, so again it could not have been Hell. This must have been YHVH, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, who dwelt in the heavens. Since we know by now that He did not create Hell, nor did anyone else, He could not have been there. For all these reasons, the furnace of Nebuchadnezzar was not Hell.
Next, Daniel sees fire in a vision. He writes of the Ancient of Days: "...his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before him..." (7:9-10). We know this was taking place in the Heavenlies, because in verse 13, "...one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days..." For all the fire, this cannot be Hell, either.
Hell, then is not to be found in the book of Daniel.
hell has been so instilled in this realm.....that we even great one another with 'HELL-O!"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 19, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Daniel
First off, the word "hell" is not found in the book. We do find a few fires, such as the furnace into which Daniel's three friends were thrown. However hot it was, it was in the literal world of here-and-now (or there-and-then), so it was not Hell. Also, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in alive, were alive in the fire (as attested by the king), and came out alive, so it was not Hell, since you must be dead to go to Hell. Further, One "like the Son of God" was in there with them, so again it could not have been Hell. This must have been YHVH, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, who dwelt in the heavens. Since we know by now that He did not create Hell, nor did anyone else, He could not have been there. For all these reasons, the furnace of Nebuchadnezzar was not Hell.
Next, Daniel sees fire in a vision. He writes of the Ancient of Days: "...his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before him..." (7:9-10). We know this was taking place in the Heavenlies, because in verse 13, "...one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days..." For all the fire, this cannot be Hell, either.
Hell, then is not to be found in the book of Daniel.
You are doing a fine job brother! It is just amazing how the Bible would be interpreted with out the mistranslated word "hell" the Good Announcement that Jesus IS the Saviour of the world would be accepted without speculation. :dsunny:
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2015, 11:33:12 PM
hell has been so instilled in this realm.....that we even great one another with 'HELL-O!"
Hello rhymes with Jello, both of which there is room for. Or..."Speed on brother, Hell ain't half full yet!"
:laugh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 20, 2015, 02:12:42 AM
You are doing a fine job brother! It is just amazing how the Bible would be interpreted with out the mistranslated word "hell" the Good Announcement that Jesus IS the Saviour of the world would be accepted without speculation. :dsunny:
Hell, even the Buddhists believe in Hell. My whole search began years ago when I saw a full-color illustration of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell. The main difference from the "Christian" Hell was the graphic style. So, I began to wonder where our ideas of Hell came from...
Hosea
As Daniel, Hosea did not get "sheol" rendered as "hell," just as "grave," which is not too far off the mark. Besides the story of Hosea and his family, most of the book is devoted to God's usual denunciation of the sins, backsliding, and wickedness of the people of Israel. Yet, in the midst of all that, is a statement, almost parenthetical: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction..." (13:14) The apostle Paul echoes this in I Corinthians 15:54. So, for all the evil of His people, God promises to ransom and redeem them from death and the grave – not to send them on to Hell, or any such place. In fact, He states that He will destroy death and the grave, as we shall see in the Revelation.
Thus, Hell is not to be found in the book of Hosea.
Joel
There is nothing in this book relating to our thesis, just a few mentions of fire, always in the real world.
Hell is nowhere to be found in the book of Joel.
Come on come on!.......find the word hell, you only have 10 OT books left! :Peace2:
There are only three more instances of the word "hell" left to cover - what a challenge! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I'm relishing getting to write that Hell is not to be found in the OT. When I can do it for the NT I'm going to do a little dance. :banana:
:2c: What is hell? - sheol. What is sheol? The grave and the unseen. Sheol is not a place of punishment, as the Psalms reveal to us.
What has been translated as hell? - let's see Gehenna. The dump for all the filth in Jerusalem where abonimations in the sight of the LORD were committed . Still, nothing about eternal conscious torment ;
Hades, Tartarus - strictly pagan concepts that were perphaps adapted by the NT writers, but do not refer to what many think it is.
Death and "hell" cast into the Lake of fire. Hell cast into what ?
O, death, where is thy sting? O, grave, where is thy victory? :doh: :girlheart:
"Death and "hell" cast into the Lake of fire. Hell cast into what ?" Judgment.
:iagree: Bingo! :LH:
:happyclap: it appears...that hell itself is unseen.... :Chinscratch:
Quote from: sheila on November 24, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
:happyclap: it appears...that hell itself is unseen.... :Chinscratch:
Yes - I have yet to find it, though I am searching the KJV with considerable diligence. BTW, I appreciate these posts by all of you - it is good to know that my posts and labors are being followed... :gimmefive:
Finding hell in the Bible is like snipe huntin'
Amos
Amos was the first prophet to write a surviving book, and through him God says against this or that group of people, that for three transgressions and for four, He would not turn away their punishment. It is vital to realize that what God sets as punishment for all these groups, takes place in the real world, not in the afterlife. In Chapter 3, verse 7, He says, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." He has yet to reveal the secret of Hell, if indeed there is such a place, just as the incarnate Christ told His disciples, "...if it were not so, I would have told you." (John 14:2) I know both texts revolve around other subjects, but I take it as a general principle that God will tell the truth about what is and what He will do. Keep this in mind when reading a Bible which, properly translated and interpreted, speaks not of Hell.
We see fire imagery in 4:11: "...ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning..." This is in connection to Sodom and Gomorrah, the fiery destruction of which, as we know, happened in the real world, so it cannot refer to Hell. Anyway, if the burning referred to is in fact Hell, the fire-forever doctrine forbids anyone ever leaving, forbidding even God from plucking anyone out. It is all too easy to formulate a doctrine or dogma, post a few proof texts, and not realize that you are proposing to dictate to God.
There is fire again in 5:6, and once again it is fire in the real world. A few verses later (5:8) we read the implied promise: "Seek him that maketh...the shadow of death into the morning." Is this not a promise of God's coming salvation? Note that no conditions are placed on it, just as the morning is for all who see it.
Fire again in 7:4, and the wording seems obscure, but this writer sees no reason to think it refers to Hellfire.
8:11-12 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." People are still not finding it, while they read what they think are Bibles, but are paraphrases. They are not finding it while sitting under the preaching of those who are constrained by doctrines and dogma which are contrary to God's Word. Dear reader, my thesis is only a small part of a whole, for the basic message of God's Word is to believe only in Him, do what is right, and avoid evil & wickedness. Most folks who stop and think will admit this, but men seem to corrupt all that they can, and corruption must be burned away from time to time. In the fullness of time, God will burn it away entirely, but that's not Hellfire either.
Finally, we do see "hell" in 9:2, "Though they dig into hell...," but as ever it is footnoted as "Sheol." Now since Hell is supposed to be a destination in the afterlife, how are living men to dig their way into it? Hoary church dogma places Hell at the center of the earth, but it's just simpler to think of hell/sheol/grave, and it is so much closer to the original meaning, and you can dig into it too. Can you dig it?
" Can you dig it?" :laugh: :LH: :happyclap: :laughing7:
:laugh: no disrespect meant to you,Laz........but just too,too funny. :HeartThrob:
None taken, Micah/Sheila! I try to put in a bit of humor from time to time, change the pace, and the tone. I also put things in there (Hopefully!) to clue the reader in that I am intelligent, and just might know what I'm talking about... :winkgrin:
Obadiah
There is little to mention in this book, except fire in verse 18, where Jacob = fire, Joseph = flame and Esau = stubble. As usual, this works out in the real world.
Hell is not to be found, then, in the book of Obadiah.
Jonah
The word "hell" shows up in 2:2, when Jonah prays to God from deliverance from the "belly of hell," uh, fish. The word, of course, is footnoted "Sheol." Jesus referred back to Jonah in the sense of His coming three-day sojourn in a tomb, as Jonah was in the fish for the same length of time, but neither was Hell if we are talking about eternal conscious torment in fire.
Jonah must have expected God to smite Nineveh after forty days, and was unhappy to see it spared, given all he had been through. Is this not exactly how people today feel about their personal enemies? That after all they have had to suffer, their enemies should just go to Hell. They forget that they are surely the enemy of some other person, who just might want them to go to Hell as well. Jesus taught us to forgive our enemies because we all come before the same judge, and must pass the same test before the White Throne. We must put up with them forever as well, if there is no Hell – a sobering thought.
After Jonah moved east of the city, a direction away from God, He gave Jonah a gourd, and showed him how things are alive one day, and dead the next, just as the grass Jesus mentioned that grows today and is tomorrow thrown into the fire. Jonah was upset by the death of his worthless gourd, but God showed him that the people of Nineveh were of much more worth. Now if God spared the pagan Ninevites, we should not be the Jonahs of the present age and relegate any person or group to Hell.
We can find the salvation of all in Jonah, but not Hell.
Micah
Lots of folks look to Chapter 4 as telling of a future time when swords are made into plowshares, spears to pruninghooks, and the nations not learning war anymore. Two verses later, we see what is less quoted: "For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever." (verse 5) Note the use of "all," and the lack of conditions and exceptions to those walking with God. Micah goes on to say that God will gather the lame, the outcast, and those He has afflicted.
In Chapter 6, God pleads, "O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me...what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" (3-8) As we wind up the OT and the minor prophets, I think it is important once again to remind the reader that nowhere does God promise or threaten anyone, for any reason, with eternal torment in fire. He does give them dire warnings of oppression, destruction, and captivity, but those are things worked out in the real world, and are the consequences of His people's own actions and choices. He talks like an aggrieved parent, hoping for better things from His children, and promising them a better future, not a hopeless future in Hell.
Micah gives us another clue about our personal enemies: "Then she that is mine enemy...shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets." (7:10) She is not sent to Hell, just "trodden down."
Micah concludes: "Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities ; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." Ask yourself, reader, if this sounds like a God who sends sinners to Hell, or a God who corrects and redeems them?
Hell is surely not found in the book of Micah
Nahum
In case anyone is ready to say that "...the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies." (1:2) means that God will send them to Hellfire, let me say again that nowhere has He yet said such a thing, and as I have pointed out many times, all these cursings and outpourings of wrath exhibit themselves in the real world. It is vital to read and understand what God is saying, not what you may think He is saying because you are reading through a theological filter. Perhaps you have heard or read the dictum that "Text out of context is pretext." Well, this is not different – we must compare any text with its context, and with God's message as a whole. If we think of Hell in terms of a theory, it is not being supported so far by the data (the Text), as I pointed out at the end of every OT book so far. To gather the whole counsel of God, we must keep up our textual gleaning.
In 3:18 we see a mention of Assyria's nobles dwelling [resting] in the dust, which I read as the dust of death. This would be Sheol or the grave again, the realm of the dead, a place in the real world. Any supernatural reality is unproven, except the Spirit of Life having returned to God who gave it.
Hell is not to be found in the book of Nahum.
Habakkuk
Many believe God's judgment to be the separation of the righteous from the wicked – one to Heaven and one to Hell. Yet, here is something for them to think on: "...we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction." (1:12) The parallels between judgment and correction here suggest a very different outworking of God's dealings with men.
In passing, we come across the verse which sparked a revolution in the mind of Martin Luther, and spread to much of the world: "...but the just shall live by his faith." (2:4) We will yet see more amazing texts.
In the next verse is the last instance of "hell" in the OT, and as ever, it is footnoted as "Sheol." It speaks of a man who "enlargeth his desire as hell," simply a way of referring to the way death or the grave devours all living in apparently unending numbers, much as Abner asked in II Samuel 2:26, "Shall the sword devour for ever?" God tells us that it will not.
Fire in 2:13: "...the people shall labor in the very fire..." but this does not refer to people in the fires of Hell, but to them working to acquire things which are simply ephemeral – things which fire may take, our personal wood, hay, and stubble. The next verse is a poetic vision of our future: "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
Hell is not to be found in the book of Habakkuk.
Oh well....another dry run :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 29, 2015, 07:29:42 PM
Oh well....another dry run :dsunny:
Sometimes, failure is success! :declare:
Zephaniah
Ho-hum, the book begins with the usual threats of destruction against Judah, Phoenicia, Assyria, Moab, Ammon, etc. In 3:8 we read of what looks like the end of the world: "...all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." Those who think this is a fire of destruction cannot explain what comes next: "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent." (verse 9) God goes on to say, "In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings wherein thou hast transgressed against me...they shall trust in the name of the Lord....The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity...and none shall make them afraid...thou shalt not see evil any more." (verses 11-15) No, this cannot be a fire of destruction, but a fire of refining and cleansing.
Hell cannot be found in the book of Zephaniah.
Haggai
This whole book, short as it is, is concerned with the beginning of the rebuilding of the Temple, after some of Judah had returned to Jerusalem from Babylon. It has nothing relevant to our thesis, therefore...
...Hell is not to be found in the book of Haggai.
Zechariah
In Chapter 3, Satan (footnoted "The Adversary" in my KJV) makes one of his few appearances – he's a minor figure really. In 3:2 Jerusalem is described as a "brand plucked out of the fire," and that is not a Hell reference, just a figure of speech. If you take a burning brand out of the fire, you can quench it and save it from being totally burned up. Given what God and His prophets have said about Jerusalem and its fate, we know that 3:2 refers to the city being ruined by the Babylonians and rebuilt under the authority of the Persians – things all happening in the real world. Anyway, it is not easy to think of a whole city in Hell.
There is fire again in 11:1-2, but the context is in the real world – Lebanon and Bashan, not Hell.
Chapter 12, verse 1 gives us yet another look at how God made the universe: "...the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." As elsewhere, there is no mention of Him having made Hell. There is fire in verse 6, but the context is the real world – Judah and Jerusalem.
There are lots of hints dropped in this book about Jesus of Nazareth, such as 13:6 – "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." Contrary to church dogma, Dante, Milton, and Baxter, Jesus is just not going to send His friends to Hell, even if it does exist, and we have yet to find evidence for that. Just imagine Jesus in a Westboro Baptist picket line, carrying a sign reading "My friends in Hell" – sounds a bit absurd, yes?
Hell is just not to be found in the book of Zechariah.
Malachi
We have more hints of Jesus here, as in 3:2-3 – "...he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's sope: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver..." We see this process as involving people, and only compared to gold and silver, which do need fire for refinement. The soap hints that He cleanses us, not just the sons of Levi, but maybe all mankind.
Now, at the very end of the OT, I run into a snag, in Chapter 4. It begins, "...the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Then there is verse 3, "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this..." What are we to make of this? Is it speaking of Hell, of the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem, of nuclear war, or of the Lake of Fire? I honestly don't know, but it seems to indicate a coming time of judgment. Eventually, we will know, and for now, the chapter gives us no hint if this happens in the real here-and-now world or not.
Hell, then, cannot be concluded from the book of Malachi.
Further, given all the above, neither Hell, nor the concept of it can be supported by the whole of or any part of the Old Testament. It is just not there! Those who want to latch onto unproven and unprovable passages (as regards my Thesis), such as Malachi's Chapter 4, are just grasping at straws, I think. I have seen some passages that give me pause, but as a whole, the No Hell thesis fits the text and the textual evidence much better than the Hell thesis.
Amen!! (and there endeth the Old Testament..)
Logically, I would very much lean toward thinking the ashes will be underfoot upon earth.. with the wicked (and the not yet saved) not around until the 2nd resurrection.. :2c:
When I think of the phrase "with no root nor branch" I can't help but think of the world's banks and their many branches :laughing7:
(mankind's final global empire & system?)"…the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven" ..."and they gathered to Armageddon" "He comes with angels and with fire"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 24, 2015, 09:14:42 PM
Amos..
..It is vital to realize that what God sets as punishment for all these groups, takes place in the real world, not in the afterlife.
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This is a great study Lazarus! It seems to be coming along very well! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thank you, Marie! When I began, I assumed Hell would be a tougher opponent! :punish: That's Hell on the left, Laz on the right.
Well I certainly hope you are happy thus far in your study, showing and proving that a [hell] of eternal torment is not the wages for sin nor the wages for anything at least in the OT!
I might say I'm very proud of you old boy...you and your grit! :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :winkgrin: :Peace2: :declare: :friendstu: :URWelcome:
The Gospel According to Matthew
First of all, let's see what this term "gospel" means. In the dry dictionary sense, it refers to various accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus the Christ. Most of us are aware that it means "good news," from the Greek word "euangelion." "Angel" and "evangel" come from the same root word.
With that understood, how can "gospel" in any way, in any sense involve the possibility of eternal, conscious, torment in everlasting fire? That is NOT good news, reader, and if this Hell really exists, and many or most of humanity is going to such a place, then the message/evangel/gospel is Bad News for most of us. Moving into the New Testament as we are, my sub-thesis is that the Gospel IS good news, and therefore Hell cannot exist. Let us go forward like good Bereans, then, and see if these things are true...or not.
The first thing of interest that we see is Jesus' name (1:21) – my KJV footnotes His name as meaning literally, "Savior," and the same verse adds "...he shall save his people from their sins." Note here that it is sins Jesus will save His people from – not Hell. Just as I stated that the Gospel and Hell cannot both be true, Jesus as the Savior of the World, and Hell, cannot both be true. Jesus saves the whole world, or He does not. A hint is given in this verse because of what is not said – is there no mention of Him saving His people from Hell because there was/is no need to say so? Because there was/is no Hell to save them from? As I said about the creation, silence here is quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.
Now along comes John the Baptist, and then the Pharisees and Sadducees. He tells them, "Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance." (3:7-8) He must have been thinking back to Chapter 24 of Jeremiah – the very good and very bad figs. Well, figs grow on trees, and he tells them "...the ax is laid unto the root of the trees...every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (3:10) Does this represent Hell? Read on: "...he [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (3:11-12)
I submit to you that this is the same fire, and certainly not Hellfire, because Jesus baptizes with it, and baptism is part of the Good News, is it not? We know by now that God's fire is for cleansing and purifying, so if the proverbial trees are cut down and cast into the fire, it means that the unrepentant have their wood, hay, and stubble burned away – the dross of sin and wickedness - leaving the gold, silver, and precious stones, even if a small amount. Looking ahead to I Corinthians 3:15, we know that, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." This can not possibly be more clear: even if you go through the fire, you are saved, and this should put paid to any fire = Hell arguments.
Let's not move on quite yet, for there is more in verse 12, which says that Jesus will baptize you (you, me, everybody) with the Holy Spirit and with fire. My take on this threshing-floor exercise is that it applies to all, and that the kernel of wheat is us, both the grain and the chaff. They are present together as part of the same seed head. Threshing the wheat involves beating the grain to separate the grain from the chaff, and winnowing to blow the chaff away, either with a fan or using the wind. Thus the chaff, standing in for our wood, hay, stubble - our carnal natures, is separated and burned. Now if you want to think the fire was Hellfire because it was unquenchable, there is really no need or justification for thinking the fire was any different from any other fire which burns until there is nothing more to burn, thus unquenchable. The wheat, being a symbol of our spiritual riches, is gathered into a barn representing the Kingdom of God. I used to think that the wheat was one class of people and the chaff another, but the clue is in the detail that they are together until the threshing. We are both wheat and chaff until our carnal natures are cleansed away. We will return to this theme again.
Chapter 4 and along comes the tempter/devil after Jesus has fasted 40 days. He tempts Jesus four times, and Hell is not mentioned. Just as in the book of Job, he is operating on the earth, and no other place or domain is evident.
In 5:19 Jesus describes who will be called least and greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and in that we see no hint or threat of Hell at all, just as we did not see it in the Law as given to Moses. In the following verse He goes on to say that one's righteousness must be of a high order to enter this same kingdom, but do not think that heaven is closed to the unrighteous forever – remember that we have already seen that the wicked and such suffer loss, but are saved as through fire. That is how this writer puts it together.
On the other hand, Jesus amplifies the message of the Law, explaining that not just killing is a matter for judgment, but so are hurtful attitudes and/or words – a very high standard indeed, of righteousness! Now in verse 22, we see "hell fire" for the first time. Now, we are in the Greek-based NT, so it is not footnoted as "Sheol," but as "gehenna." This is not Hell, for Jesus is merely saying that bad actions cross over from the area of safe moral action into unsafe areas, where being executed and having your dead body burned with other refuse in Gehenna, a physical place in the real word, was possible. Theo-illogical sleight-of-hand has been at work here. To illustrate this point, Jesus describes three real-world situations in verses 23-26, none of which involve Hell. Moving on to verses 27-30, Jesus speaks of cutting off an eye or a hand, rather than having your whole body cast into hell. Well, that's Gehenna again, and what I said above applies here as well. Better to cast off the part and live in the safe moral area than to keep the part and veer off into sin and dangerous moral territory, to be executed and have your body (body only, note!) burned in the city dump with other refuse, for that is exactly what Jesus was talking about, IMHO.
Winding up Chapter 5, Jesus tells us, "Love your enemies...bless them...do good to them...pray for them..." (5:43-48) This does not make a lot of sense if Hell is to be the destiny of the evil, the unjust, the wicked. Is it just possible that Jesus told us this because He plans to remake such people as good, just, upright? Did He not say, "Behold, I make all things new."? Yes, He did, in 21:5 of the Revelation, and that would surely include all men.
In 6:14-15 and 7:1-2, we run into the idea of forgive and be forgiven by God, or fail to forgive and God will fail to forgive you. Conversely, judge not and be not judged, or judge and be judged by the same standard. I suppose these are often cited, but Hell is not mentioned, and it works equally well for the fire-forever crowd and for those preaching eventual reconciliation. We know by now that God is not angry forever, so will He withhold His forgiveness forever? Will His judgment against us stand forever? My guess, based on what we have seen so far, is that He will not, but these verses can go either way.
At 7:12 we encounter the Golden Rule, and what a wonderful rule it is! But have you ever wondered if God follows it? Jesus says, "...this [the Golden Rule] is the law and the prophets." If that Law is in fact a transcript of the mind of God, and I think it is, then the Law's silence on the subject of eternal torment in fire speaks volumes. Is the God of the Bible One who relegates any to Hell for any reason? We know two things by now, at least: God creates good and evil to exercise His purposes in the here-and-now. God gives us broad hints of eventual salvation and blessings for all. On Hell, He is silent.
Moving on, we quickly come up against the broad and narrow ways, in 7:13-14. The narrow way leads to life and the broad way leads to "destruction." Does this have anything to do with entering the Kingdom, or Hell? Note that everything Jesus has said so far in the Sermon on the Mount concerns how His hearers should live in the world. I see this in the same light as the cutting off of an eye or hand in order to live without sin in the world, and not end up in Gehenna, burned with the trash, in the real world. Is there more to this, an eternal application? Yes, certainly, and I suppose it is time for me to tackle a big stumbling block. Many people hold to the idea that your fate is sealed at death, but I cannot find that concept in my Bible. People who follow natal astrology believe that everything about you is set by the positions of various heavenly bodies at the moment of your birth. I noted many years ago that the daily horoscope in your newspaper is distributed by the same syndicate as are the comic strips – a big clue. There are even better reasons to think that natal astrology is bunk. Does death sealing your eternal fate really make any more sense? Let's look ahead and take a quick look behind the veil. We know that those not making the grade at the White Throne Judgment are cast into the Lake of Fire, and we know that it is the second death. Remember that Death and Hell (footnoted "Hades") are also cast in. That's a bit confusing, but it is not the end of the story. In fact, we see a time much further from us than the filling of the Lake of Fire, in I Corinthians 15:25-26, "For he [Jesus] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." I ask you a fair question reader: How can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that? Further, verse 28 states that all these things happen so "...that God may be all in all." Again, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell if God is going to become All in all? We will return to these passages later.
Fire again in 6:19 – "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Yes, this might be, and probably often is, used as a picture of Hell. However, earlier in His sermon, Jesus spoke of the lilies which grow today and tomorrow are fuel for the oven. He said nothing bad about the lilies, and if we are going to pick up every instance of "thrown into the fire" to refer to Hell, then we must settle on a capricious God who sends the innocent lilies as well as the bad-fruit trees into Hell. I think I'd rather see them as real-world illustrations.
After His tree comments, Jesus speaks of those He never knew, who He commands to depart, apparently not allowed to enter the Kingdom. Our brief peek behind the veil, just two paragraphs ago, applies here. These people are not yet worthy of the Kingdom, or to be in the presence of Jesus, so they will depart for more refining, cleansing, and repentance – it makes at least as much sense as them being whisked off to Hell, and the passage does not say they will be.
In 8:12, Jesus remarks on those "...cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This seems to be worked into Hell thinking, but it is just a loss of status for those cast out. Picture a Sabbath dinner, the sun having set on Friday night, and some are kicked out of the house into the dark outside, just like the unfortunate wedding guest of Matthew 22:13.
An odd thing here is to notice something mentioned only four times in the OT: devils, demons. The devils in charge of the two men of Chapter 8 know who Jesus is, and what their fate is (torment), but we don't have a clue as to what they are exactly or where they come from. Given their association with Hell, we will see what we can gather from the New Testament.
Another item we will keep an eye on is the assertion that Jesus said more about Hell than anything else. Well, it sounds absurd on the face of it, and it might fly with people who do not read their Bibles. However, see 9:35 – "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching...preaching the gospel [good news] of the kingdom, and healing..." Verse 36 goes on to say, "...he was moved with compassion on them..." so it's not easy to picture a compassionate Jesus, Who later sends many of them to Hell. No, Hell is not mentioned here, nor any dire warnings. Stay tuned.
Jesus tells us in 10:26, "...there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." Then comes verse 28, a puzzle – "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." "Hell" is footnoted here as "Gehenna," and I can only figure this out by seeing it as a comment on those killed here who will later be resurrected to life, becoming living souls again. Then, there are those who are executed for crimes, have their dead bodies burned in Gehenna (real world again), and are later cast into the Lake of Fire for their shortcomings. But that is just my own interpretation.
In 11:23, we have "hell" again, and it refers to a whole city, Capernaum, being "brought down to hell." Now "hell" in this case is footnoted by a new word, the Greek "hades." Let's check this out. Hades was the name of the Greek god of the underworld, and also of the underworld itself, The Hebrews called the realm of the dead "sheol," and when the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek as the Septuagint, "sheol" was rendered as "hades." A form of this word, "aides," means exactly what "sheol" means: the unseen – that is to say, the realm of the dead, the grave, the pit. It is the best equivalent in the Greek language, but there was a price to pay. The Hebrews had the correct take on the state of the dead, but after the good news began to go out to the gentiles/nations, many Greeks began to be converted. It was inevitable that they would bring in, at least subconsciously, their old, pagan biases. After the permanent schism between the old Hebrew religion and Christianity, about 150 AD, I'm sure religious thinking became more Greek. Later, Latin speakers, who were well accustomed to re-alignments between religions, such as merging their gods with Greek gods, brought a whole new spirit of syncretism to Christianity. By about 500 AD, a lot of pagan temples, holidays, and beliefs had been grafted into the religious tradition handed down from the time of Acts, but that is far beyond the scope of this essay. This half-pagan Christianity reached the Saxons, both on the Continent and in Britain, and their Hel became Hell in time. You see, the Saxon, Germanic, and Norse Hel was their goddess of the underworld. This underworld was called "Helheim," meaning "the House of Hel." Interestingly, the roots of the word "Hel" hark back to the original meanings of Sheol and Hades – covered and hidden. [Source: Orel, Vladimir. 2003. A Handbook of Germanic Etymology. p. 156, 168.] The true Britons, now pushed into such corners as Wales, had a more pure version of Christianity, as it had arrived in Britain in the first century – but that is another story. Since the Saxons had Hel, goddess and realm, and the Greeks had Hades, god and realm, I suspect the Saxons had long contact with the Greeks before they moved north and west – again, that is another story. That, reader, is my take on how "hell" got into the English language, and some of my historical information may not be accurate, but the very similarity of "hel" and "hell" should send the serious Bible student on a word-study quest. It should also give pause to anyone who subscribes to the doctrine of Hell, as the very name of this Saxon underworld exposes the pagan roots of Hell for all to see.
By the way, my researches on "hades" took me to my Oxford English Dictionary, a reference dictionary if there ever was one, and it stated that the word "hades" did not enter the English language until about 1600 AD, having to do with some theological controversy.
Jesus, in 12:26, speaks of Satan's kingdom, but where and what would that be? Remember that when Jesus was tempted, Satan offered Him all the kingdoms of the world, "...All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." Were all these kingdoms really Satan's to give? It's a sobering thought. In 12:29, Jesus speaks of the "strong man's house," and again, it is the domain of Satan. Jesus speaks of binding Satan and plundering his house, but Hell is not mentioned as Satan's kingdom or his house. What is mentioned in the Bible is the Earth, where Satan goes to and fro, and walks up and down, as we read in Job 1:7. Elsewhere, in the Gospel of John, Jesus calls him the "prince of this world."
Now we come to a tough one – the Unforgivable Sin. Jesus identifies it as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, something so serious that it will not be forgiven, "neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (12:32) In case you might think this act is a fast track to Hell, look at the footnote, for "world" is footnoted as "age." Since the next age to come, the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom, is undoubtedly not the last (see I Corinthians 15:23-28), this sin may well be forgiven in time – a long time.
Parallel to the parable of the wheat and chaff, Jesus tells His disciples the parable of the wheat and tares, in 13:24-30. The wheat and chaff are together until the threshing, but the wheat and tares are not even the same species. In this parable the non-wheat stands for the wicked, for Jesus goes on to explain the meaning of the parable to His disciples in 13:37-43. He states that "...the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the Devil..." Note that these tares are harvested first, bound, and cast into the fire. Hell? I think not, unless you insist on overlaying the Hell doctrine on everything in sight. No, the great consuming, purifying fire at the end of this grand story the Bible tells is the Lake of Fire, burning to ashes or the Second Death. Happily, we know by now that this second death is not the end, for the last enemy to be overcome is Death itself. It is axiomatic that this overcoming of death must involve the release of the dead from the Lake of Fire, just as the sea gave up its dead at the first resurrection. Yes, it's just that simple.
The Gospel of Matthew, continued:
Jesus concludes His talk at 13:48-50, speaking of fishermen keeping the good fish from their nets and casting away the bad fish. Further, "the angels shall...sever the wicked from among the just. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Again, an unnamed furnace of fire is not Hell, and the wailing and gnashing do not make it so, either. Even so, we see that the judgments of God are severe at the end of this world age. There will be wailing and gnashing, but these last only until the second death takes the wailers and gnashers in the Lake of Fire, and that death, like any death is a state of sheol/non-existence.
Jesus quoted Isaiah 29:13, in Matthew 15:9 – "...in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Given what we have thus far, I think I can state with some confidence that the doctrine of Hell falls into this category. Why? We see the doctrine of Hell taught, preached, and codified in most churches (not all), yet we cannot find it yet in the Bible, even the KJV. That being so, we must state that the doctrine of Hell is a commandment of men, and therefore to subscribe to the doctrine of Hell is to worship Him in vain. Don't get mad at me – I'm just running with what He said. Jesus says it can be so. We see it in 17:12, concerning the doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Answering Peter about the small stone of Peter and the large stone upon which He would build His church, Jesus states, "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (16:18) The word rendered as "hell" is "hades" again, already dealt with at length, so I do not think I am too far out of line to say that Jesus was looking forward to the deaths of all the Christian martyrs over the centuries, and still dying for their Lord today. Now if sheol/hades has gates, figuratively speaking, this indicates the entry to death, and Jesus knew that for all those who have died for their faith in Christ, estimated at about seventy million, His church still thrives. With over two billion adherents, it is the most numerous religion in the world. However, most churches incorporate the Hell doctrine in their creeds or foundational documents, so Hell is made a part of that "large stone" upon which Christ's Church is built. It is a mixed metaphor at best, and at worst, it is the house Jesus spoke of, built mostly on the Rock, but also partly built over the gap of the Hell we have yet to find in the Bible. Because of that gap in the foundation of the house, when the rain, floods, and winds come "and beat upon that house," it will be in danger of falling.
In the next verse (19), Jesus grants Peter, or will grant Peter, the keys of the kingdom of heaven, telling him of binding and/or loosing on earth and in heaven. I confess I don't know the full meaning of this grant, and perhaps it simply meant that the disciples' works were going to have eternal results, but I note that Hell had no part in Jesus' grant.
A lot is made of Jesus' statement, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (16:26) Here, we just need to go back to the creation of Adam in Genesis. Body + Spirit = Soul, that is to say, a living, breathing, thinking person. The "soul" is not some ineffable thing we have inside us which is coveted by both God and the Devil. Jesus is merely asking rhetorically - what is of more value to a man than his life? To lose your own soul is not to be sent to Hell, but to simply die, as I have pointed out many times.
Jesus says that He "...shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (16:27) Some will read into this that Jesus will give good rewards to those with good works and punishment to those with bad works. Compare with I Corinthians 3:14-15 – "If any man's work abide [endures] which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I had quoted verse 15 before, but adding verse 14 completes the picture. Paul implies that all are saved, but some are saved "as by fire," and whether that is the Lake of Fire is yet to be seen, but it probably is.
Jesus condemns those who entice to sin, saying, "...it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea...Woe unto the world...woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (18:6-7) No reason is given to assume the woes lie anywhere else than in the real world. He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9) The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same. Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd. It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life. As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial.
In 18:11-14, Jesus states that His mission is to save that which was lost, and relates the parable of the shepherd, 99 kept sheep, and 1 stray sheep. He says that the shepherd is happier with the 1 than with the 99, and don't you think that Jesus has a whole lot better chance of finding that lost sheep than the average shepherd? Of course He does, and "...it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." Little ones – that's you and me, brother, and is our puny human will going to prevail against the Wills of Jesus and His Father? I think not. Theology has a term for it: Irresistible Grace. Combine that with God's will for none of us to perish, and it means Eternal Security to me. How about you?
Chapter 18 concludes with the parable of the king who was settling accounts with his servants. This reminds me of the splinter in another's eye versus the beam in your own, and the small forgiveness you need to extend to others to merit the great forgiveness from God. In the parable, the evil, non-forgiving servant is sent to the king's torturers, and "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (18:35) Some read Hell into that, even though it is not mentioned, but I think it is more important to remember the principle mentioned by Matthew, Mark, and Luke: With what measure you use, your own reward will be measured – at least that is how I understand it. What Jesus says above reminds me of something I heard on the radio not too long ago: To refuse to forgive is to burn a bridge, not behind you, but one which you yourself must cross.
At 19:23-24, Jesus makes His famous rich-man-camel-needle's-eye comment, but note that the direction is always up, not down: Earth to the Kingdom of Heaven/God (as difficult as that may be), never Earth to Hell. When His disciples ask in the next verse, "Who then can be saved?," Jesus answers, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." This is a moment in the story of the Bible when one just might get to thinking, the rich can be saved, so anybody can be saved, so everybody can be saved? Is such a thing possible? Jesus hints that it is, but He cautions in verse 30, "But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." He goes on to illustrate with the parable of the man who paid all his help the same, no matter how many or how few hours they had worked, and finishes with, "...for many be called, but few chosen." (20:16) The topic continues, as Jesus speaks to the priests and elders in 21:31. He tells them that not only are the elders and priests, who are in a high position in this world, going to enter the Kingdom after the tax-collectors and harlots, but He fails to indicate any destination besides the Kingdom of Heaven. Is it too much to believe that your worst outcome is merely a late entry to the Kingdom?
Winding up this theme, Jesus relates the parable of the wedding in 22:1-14. The invited guests prove unworthy, so the King's servants "...gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good..." Is this a picture of all men in Heaven, both those who were bad and good on Earth? One man was there for whatever reason without proper garments – he was bound and cast into outer darkness. This is just a bum's rush out the door, a precipitous loss of status, but this outer darkness will only be identified with Hell by those already subscribing to Hell. I see it as an illustration of what Jesus said elsewhere, that those who have little will have what little they have taken away.
In contrast to all the pagan religions with their gods of the dead, Jesus affirms in 22:32 that His Father is not a god of the dead, but the God of the living. Never is Satan given parity with God, by being named or considered a god of the dead, the damned, or of the underworld. As I mentioned many pages ago, we have Heaven and Earth, a hierarchy, not a dualistic struggle between Heaven and Hell with the Earth and its humans as a prey between them. God has stated clearly that He owns this Earth, and as its creator, He should. As He says in Psalm 50:12, "...the world is mine, and the fullness thereof." We have seen how Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this same Earth, yet we must remember that Satan obtained his title to it by fraud in the Garden of Eden. His fraud will be overturned and his rule brought to an end. In this sense, yes, the Earth and us are a prize, but it is a temporary situation, not the grand, eternal standoff depicted in medieval art, and only slightly downplayed by the modern church.
"Hell" shows again, in Chapter 23. First in verse 15, footnoted as "gehenna," as we have seen, a place in the real world. Second, in verse 33, not footnoted, but other sources indicate that it too, should be rendered as "gehenna." Jesus is hurling insults, truth to be sure, but offensive to those He directed it to. He is saying that some deserve, not a decent burial, but to be burned in the city dump with other criminals. No Hell does not need to be inserted here, but was anyway by translators who could have translated more honestly. In this regard, I must quote Jesus in 24:4, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
Jesus, in answering His disciples about the end of the world, and that word in 24:3 should have been "age," not "world," says "...he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." A few verses later, He tells us what kind of salvation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved..." (24:22) God's salvation extends then to both the dead and the living.
In 24:51, an evil servant is cut in two and classed with the hypocrites, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, but Hell is not mentioned. So also for the foolish virgins of 25:11-12 who are simply left outside. Again, the servant of the one talent was cast into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth, but Hell is not mentioned (25:30). We keep running up against this phrase, and I think it does not mean Hell, because it is darkness, and Hell is supposed to be a fiery place. Fire involves some light. Put it in the context of the place and time – if you were thrown out the door into the darkness outside, you were alone, possibly cold, and facing fending for yourself, at least until morning. You were cut off from the pleasant food, drink, and company inside, and little wonder if you wept or gnashed your teeth! Hell is just not needed as an explanation for these turns of phrase.
In 25:32-46, Jesus separates "sheep" people from "goat" people. The right-hand sheep are promised "life eternal," and the left-hand goats are given "everlasting punishment." In particular, Jesus says, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (25:41) Now, the Hell-roaring crowd will think they have me. Nope. First, let's look at what fire is prepared. It is most certainly NOT the classic Hell of Dante, Milton, and Baxter, as Satan presides over that, at least in their theological fantasies, and he is most certainly not in charge here. Sometimes we must look ahead, and this is one of those times. We find a fire prepared, or at least, the devil is cast into it – the Lake of Fire, as we see in the Revelation, 20:10. Now that we know the fire is God's fire, the reader should recall that His fire is redemptive in nature, cleansing and purifying, not destroying and punishing. It burns up the chaff, the tares, the wood, hay, and stubble; what it leaves is gold, silver, the precious things which endure fire. The goat people will suffer loss, as we read earlier, but they will be saved, but as through fire. The last point may be the most difficult: how long will they be in the fire? Forever? That would make no sense – why purify and cleanse them with fire forever? That would just get back to punishment and destruction. Do you see how the time factor is so important to the Hell theory? Now the KJV uses terms like "eternal," "everlasting," "for ever," and the like. The YLT uses the term "age-during," a clumsy term, and it refers to a long span of time, but not an infinite one.
So, we must stop here and look at a few Greek and Hebrew words. My own research finds only two times in the New Testament where "eternal" comes from an equivalent Greek word – "aidios." No, it's not "goodbye" in Spanish. The fact is that in the ancient world, concepts like "eternal," "zero" and "infinity" were slow to develop. The ancient Egyptians expressed eternity as "millions of years," which gives us the feel, but that is not really eternity, as millions of years still have an end and a beginning. The Greek word all-too-often mistranslated as "eternity" is "aion," which was transliterated into the Latin "aeon," and that came down to us as the English "aeon" and "eon." In the Hebrew, we find the same meaning in "olam," mistranslated in the Old Testament, also too often, as "eternity." In the early sense that Homer used, "aion" meant a lifetime. Today, "eon" is often used to refer to forever, everlasting and eternal, but in the Biblical sense we should keep in mind that it is best used to mean any long but finite period of time. To put it in perspective, if we are speaking of God, Who is uncreated, we can speak of eternity. If the subject is the created cosmos, then we must speak of aeons or eons, as the cosmos has a beginning, and is therefore, not eternal.
Back to Matthew 25:32-46, we should now know that Jesus is sending His right-hand sheep, not to "life eternal," but to the life of the aeon, or "aeonian life." In the same way, His left-hand goats are sent, not to eternal punishment, but to an aeon or eon (beginning and end, remember) of punishment, chastisement, correction, and purification. Having dealt now with the eternal part of eternal torture (aka, Hell), the torture part must wait until we reach the Lake of Fire in the Revelation. Stay tuned.
Having worked through the Gospel of Matthew the Publican, this writer cannot find any support for Hell or eternal torture In it.
May I say Excellent! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
..also, the bad fish being separated from the good.. I've noticed God's Word is not static in time.. some things and references are grouped together and we read them as being straight as to time and its unfolding.. But I don't think the message is really like that.. For instance, how the two advents of Jesus are often written (were spoken of) in one continuous paragraph.
To, me (and as a possibility to add to the topic) i would read this as at the end of Judgment 'day' the angels will sever the wicked - who although they have experienced being resurrected and have witnessed what surely(?) will be a very long day of judgment/discerning/&review (prophesied by Day of Atonement - 2nd peak in the Lord's 2nd advent {represented/prophesied by a holy day} :sigh: wish I could say that better w/o leaving most of it out..
Tho they have lived through all that, they still refuse to "believe" and thus have their names "written in the Book of Life". I'm actually thinking there might not be that many of them.. :smile: :Peace2:
I'm reading your last recent post, first :doh: :mock:
Quotehow can "gospel" (good news?) in any way, in any sense involve the possibility of eternal, conscious, torment in everlasting fire?
:gthumbsup: ..amen! for even one.. let alone so very many!! :mshock:
Quoteit is sins Jesus will save His people from – not Hell
Quote..the fig tree...the winnowing.. the wheat and the chaff..
:ty: you said that so well! And it makes a LOT of sense!
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 08, 2016, 06:28:49 PM
May I say Excellent! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Amen.. I have to agree..
quote - "the Gospel and Hell cannot both be true"
.."saved yet so as by fire"
!! :thumbsup:
The Gospel of Matthew took a lot of time, a lot of pages, and I feel worn out, but maybe that's just my work around the house...
It's quite a change from the happy days of knocking out one minor prophet per day...
I thank all for your comments!
:dsunny:
I had to come back off and on all day to read the two posts on Matthew.. but it was sure well worth it!! What a wealth of information and I think you said so many things.. so veRy well!! All so good for piercing through the habitual false light one is accustomed to coming across concerning the verses assumed (for no biblical reason!) to refer to a 'hell'. What excellent work Lazarus! :gthumbsup: :smile: I understand the outer darkness much better now! ("outside in the dark, cold, hungry, alone and missing the banquet"!)
I (also) especially liked - (and pardon all my quoting, it's a way I like to study..)
"strongman's house" and "see all these things (of my dominion/kingdoms)" satan said.. "no mention of hell"
"the Rock built on if it has gaps just may act as sand.."
"bind or loose in heaven as on earth & vice versa.. again no hell"
'to lose the soul.. the life.." (can destroy body and life in gehenna..)
"shall reward every man according to his works."
"not the grand, eternal standoff depicted in medieval art, and only slightly downplayed by the modern church."
I never realized that about "he who endures to the end will be saved.." (survival! "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved..." - I do love learning new things about His Word/Truth)
"God's salvation extends then to both the dead and the living." I agree.. only verse I can think of that could be possibly thought of to allude to - after death no hope, would be when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repent/change their mind, they would "die in their sins" to me simply means they would also then rise in their sins.. less joyful for a time, than rising to meet Him at His coming..
" eon (beginning and end, remember) of punishment, chastisement, correction, and purification." and "curtailing" if I remember right is the root Greek word, of the Greek word used..
and, ""Take heed that no man deceive you." :gthumbsup:
Lately I've been noticing the phrase "will fare better, or worse, on judgment day" such as Sodom will fare better than the pharisees.. can't think of the other examples right now.. kind of disposes with the idea of the (2nd) resurrection of the unsaved being a case of woken up and simply cast/thrown away into a hell...
the unforgiveable sin i think of as the unable to be forgiven sin.. while harbored in the heart - blasphemy - for it involves hating God.. and it is unforgiveable as long as it is being held .. :2c: :smile: present tense is used much more, I think, in the Greek (and also Hebrew) than is in the modern way of thinking.
and ( :2c: ) the gathering at the end of the age.. wheat is gathered by His angels "He comes with His angels" .."and so shall we ever be with the Lord" after "meeting Him at His coming" ...but the tares, which gathering comes first "are gathered to the armageddon" battle..?
" just as the sea gave up its dead at the first resurrection." ... is at the second resurrection (20:5,7,11-13)
It's too bad the Book of Revelation is at the end of the Bible, because if well understood it is a key which puts much of the rest in proper place and order.. sort of like Genesis does too..
(i'm not trying to nitpick these little points or anything.. just thinking if you publish this using lulu dot com or another, print and, or ebook, it would make a great gift for nonbelievers.. and some believers.. and of course its accuracy will make it penetrate.. no leaven leavening the message..
I would be most interested in a copy for myself too! I know we have this thread.. and I just may reread it!
..thanks!!
Laz,
It seemed like such a long dry spell. It was good to see you back in your groove. What a great piece you are putting together. I can't wait till it's finished and published. I would like to give a copy to everyone I know. Looking forward to your findings on Luke. I really appreciate that you don't exaggerate to make your point, makes your writing so much more credible IMO.
Keep up the 'good works',
Pat
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 08, 2016, 08:36:42 PM
The Gospel of Matthew took a lot of time, a lot of pages, and I feel worn out, but maybe that's just my work around the house...
It's quite a change from the happy days of knocking out one minor prophet per day...
I thank all for your comments!
:dsunny:
I love your simple and matter of fact approach Laz ,
You make some excellent points , they are sharp and keen , something for the reader to ''think about '' seeds planted .. :HeartThrob:
I love the fact that '' the mind set'' is leaving it up to Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world by faith in Him .
Finding this wonderful , and those pointing to Jesus are spreading the ''good news of the gospel '' to all the ends of the earth .
Love is the perfect bond that stands the test of time and place and gathers ''all things'' in Love,
to be worked out and though His perfect desire , till the end .
and gives us all new meaning to ,'Be strong and confident, all you who wait on the LORD!
God bless your heart in all your Love for the Lord :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Great job Laz.... :thumbsup:
:ty:
The Gospel of Mark
There is really nothing to comment on until 3:21-29, where we see Jesus' friends saying that He was "beside himself," and the scribes going further, using the name "Beelzebub." We have not seen this name since II Kings, chapter 1, and it is the name of a god of the Philistine city of Ekron. I don't care to comment on the name itself, except to say that the speakers of it were violating God's command to not speak the name of any pagan god. Jesus must have known this, but He had deeper things to say. Let's skip over the binding Satan part and see what pertains to us, sinners that we are. Jesus says this, "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies..." What, ALL sins? Yup, that's what He said – keep in mind what was said to Joseph in Matthew 1:21, "...he shall save his people from their sins."
There is ONE exception – Jesus warns, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." This is generally known as The Unforgivable Sin, and verse 30 pins it down: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." Those who spoke against Jesus were saying what they should have known was the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) was either madness or some kind of demonic power which they put a pagan god's name to. Either saying is a horrible slap against God, but I think the latter is worse. Let's look at what the YLT has to say, as I think it renders verses 28-30 far better than the KJV: "Verily I say to you, that all the sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and evil speakings with which they might speak evil, but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness – to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment..." We see that "Ghost" is now corrected to "Spirit," "never forgiveness" is rendered as "not forgiveness," and best of all, "eternal damnation" is correctly translated as "age-during judgment." This reconciles the whole narrative, and even this sin of sins is forgiven, just as Jesus said it would be, only after some seriously bad judgment lasting an age/eon.
By the way, look back at what I wrote on Matthew, chapter 12:32 – the text reads, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." "World" here is footnoted as "age," and the YLT has "age" in the text. Could this be the same word translated as "eternal" in other contexts, to suit some theological bias? Let's look it up...OK, I found an online interlinear version of the verse, and the Greek word for "world" or "age" is "aioni," a form of our familiar "aion," translated as "eternal" in so many places - translational sleight-of-hand again, except where the use of "eternal" would be ridiculous.
At 4:22 Jesus tells His hearers, "For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad." One such thing is the present truth about Heaven and Hell.
In Chapter 5, we see again the story of the man with a legion of demons. Note that they beg Jesus to not send them out of the country, but into local pigs. Isn't it odd that they do not ask to be sent home to Hell? No, just like Satan, they seem bound to the Earth. No Hell here...
There's an interesting occurrence in Chapter 8, where Peter says, "Thou art the Christ," and shortly after that he rebukes Jesus over Him telling of His coming suffering. Rebuking Jesus?! No wonder Jesus told him to "Get thee behind me, Satan..." Now, reader, I have already pointed out that Satan and the demons seem to be bound to the Earth. Further, I can find no evidence that the demons operate under the authority of Satan, in the sense of them being Satan's demons. Given that, it is a side issue to me, but I will mention here that "Satan" in this passage is Strong's #4567, transliterated as "Satanas," and defined as "the adversary." Jesus, then, was calling out Peter as an adversary, but we must wonder - is Satan a trick of language, or a real person? I honestly don't know, but given what I've seen offered in evidence, I have my doubts. My readers can decide for themselves...
Following on from calling Peter His adversary, Jesus discourses in verses 34-38 His famous saying about gaining the whole world but losing your soul. A more severe judgment is implied for those who will not follow Jesus, but note that Hell is not mentioned, even though many interpret it so. I hope that my readers are people who possess the ability to see what they are looking at, for not everyone does. Today is no different from the days of Jesus, or the days of Isaiah – just take a look at Mark 4:12.
Chapter 9 begins with a bit of a mystery, for Jesus has called together "...the people unto him with his disciples also..." (8:34), and He says some of them will live to see "...the kingdom of God come with power." This may not mean they will survive to the present time and see the Second Coming. Look to Luke 17:20-21, where Jesus says the Kingdom can not be observed in its arrival, for it is within (footnoted, "among") you. I think we should look to the day of Pentecost for the arrival of the Kingdom with power, but that is just my opinion.
A second mystery soon follows, in the Transfiguration. Jesus is seen with Moses and Elias, and how did that happen? It is either a vision, or both men were brought up, resurrected, from the dead for the event. This writer cannot find solid ground, and since Jesus is the firstfruit from the dead, I will go with it being a vision. Anyway, the whole thing is off-topic, so let's move on.
At this point in Mark we have already seen Jesus tell twice of His suffering, death, and rising again. See 8:31 and 9:31. I know that many say He descended into Hell during the three days between His death and His rising again, but there is no mention of that here. Jesus was only in a tomb, under the earth, in the grave, in the pit. As usual, Hell is interpolated, inserted by interpretation. Let us see clearly what the Bible says and does not say, and not add what is not there. Remember what God said in Deuteronony 4:2 and the Revelation 22:18.
Later in Chapter 9, Jesus repeats His advice about hands, feet, and eyes. Again, it's all about Gehenna, and my comments about the equivalent passage in Matthew still stand. The only thing I care to add is in verse 47, "...it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." The "hell fire" is, of course, gehenna, a place in the real world at that time. Now, ask yourself – is the Kingdom of God a mythical place in the sky, the realm of harps and clouds with Saint Peter at the gate, a place found nowhere in the Bible, or is it the operative Kingdom Jesus spoke of, a place that was within/among the crowds He spoke to? I have noted that Jesus never described this Kingdom in any direct way, but He did describe how it happened, how it operated. Today, as then, it would be a real thing (not a place) in the real world, but not something anyone could put a finger on, just as Jesus said it did not come by observation.
In Chapter 10 we read of the rich man who wanted to find eternal (age-long) life, but left sadly when told he had to give his riches to the poor to enter the Kingdom. Again, this was not a pie-in-the-sky thing, but something operating in the world then, and now. Was he going to Hell? No, for Jesus states that it is hard and difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom, but He sums up the matter by saying, "...with God all things are possible." (verse 27)
In Chapter 11 Jesus answers the Sadducees, and makes no Heaven/Hell distinction for those who are resurrected. Further, He states that God is the God of the living, not a God of the dead. I'm confused – don't people have to be dead to be in Hell? On the other hand, don't people have to be alive to experience and endure conscious torment in Hell? The fire-forever crowd has a problem here, but that's not my circus, not my monkey.
Now it's high time we took a look at that damn word, "damnation." It is found eleven times in the Bible, all of them in the New Testament. In 12:40, Jesus states that certain rascals will receive greater damnation. It's a loaded word, as in "damned to Hell," and it has a load of negativity. Formal definition: condemnation to eternal punishment in Hell. A little research quickly finds it should read "judgment" or "condemnation." I say, away with damnation!
That's all I have to say about the Gospel of Mark, where I could not find any proof of Hell.
Amen! Another good 'chapter' in your writing...
He did "descend to the lower part of the earth" - the dust of the grave!
[And again, imo, the last book of the bible is a key to what or who the adversary is. The question being who or what is "the dragon" and of course all verses and cross references, and reading as straightforward whatever can be read as straightforward simplicity, on the topic.. And who was the "tempter of Jesus in the desert". But yes that is another topic.. Tho of course for all of us and the message we speak, the more accuracy in all things the more or better impact.]
Another veRy good chapter! :thumbsup:
The Gospel According to Luke
John the Baptist, in 3:9, tells his hearers, "...the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." We know that an ax is a tool to cut and separate, and in this case it leaves the root intact, just as in verse 17, where he speaks of the Christ winnowing, and separating the chaff, leaving the wheat intact. The (non-root) tree and the chaff are both burned with fire, but we know by now that it is the cleansing fire of God, the same fire of Pentecost, which we will soon come to. Is this fire unquenchable, as verse 17 says? This is critical for understanding, and note that the fire is not described as eternal or forever – we should understand it as we understand fire, which consumes fuel (chaff, wood, hay, stubble) and is not extinguished until that fuel is consumed. That may sound like a truism when stated, but God is not a God of confusion, and if He calls something fire, then I tend to think He does so because it follows the rules of fire. Also, keep in mind that the trunk, branches, and leaves are part of the tree. Roots are left, even if not mentioned, and so not all is burned. Chaff comes off the wheat, but until the wheat is threshed, they are one. So it is with us, as the old man is killed by the work of God's Word and Spirit, and the new man is built up.
Chapter 4 finds Jesus again tempted by the devil, and yes, I want to keep hammering this home – the devil is here bound on earth, as we see in his own statement, "...that [world kingdoms] is delivered unto me; and whomsoever I will I give it." (verse 6) This devil, whoever he is, is operating on, and only on this earth, at least that is what we can gather from the Bible itself so far. Any presence of this same devil in a mythical place called "Hell" is simply not to be found in the books of the Bible, up to this point.
Chapter 6 contains what are known as the Beatitudes, and like the Law given to Moses, they offer us a view into the Mind of God. I will quote some of it, and just ask yourself – does it sound like Jesus is preaching about a God who damns to Hell?
"...your's is the kingdom of God." (6:20) "...your reward is great in Heaven..." (6:23) No other outcome or destination, such as Hell, is mentioned.
"But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." (6:24-25) In this world, a small consolation, woe, woe, mourning and weeping, but yet, no mention of Hell. Why would Jesus hold back from a mention of Hell if that place existed? He was never one to mince words as far as we can tell, and what does that say about the preachers who are these days stating that Jesus said more about Hell than about anything else? I hope to put paid to that before I reach the end of the Gospels.
"...he [God] is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." (6:35) What kind of God would be kind to the wicked in this world and then turn around and send them to Hell, once they were dead? It makes no sense unless there are rules in operation about which He fails to tell us. No, I don't think He is a trickster, an opinion expressed in the next verse: "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Yes, God is merciful, and since He famously states elsewhere that He is unchanging, not even possessing as much as a shadow of turning, we know that He is not unmerciful, at least not in an ultimate sense. Given that, a Hell of eternal suffering and torment for some (or most) of mankind is excluded.
"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit...A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good..." (6:43-45) How much less would a good God produce the corrupt (bad) fruit of a place like Hell?
Chapter 6 ends with "But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." (verse 49) As usual, woes are implied, but Hell is not mentioned. Jesus misses another chance to mention Hell more than any other thing – or did He state things just as they were?
Jesus meets the Gadarene demoniac again in Chapter 8. The demons here ask Jesus not to send them into the deep/abyss, instead of just not out of the country. Being allowed into the swine gives them an escape, so that they get to stay in the Earth. This abyss may be the same place as the bottomless pit of the Revelation, but we are not told much about it, surely not enough to say it is Hell, unless we already believe such a place exists. Given what we have so far, I think the abyss can be seen as just one more thing swept up under the rubric of "Hell."
Hell again, in 10:15 – the whole city of Capernaum sent to Hell? Anyway, it's footnoted as "hades," and I think we've covered that. Chapter 10 continues, with Jesus reminiscing that He had seen Satan fall from Heaven. How far, we are not told, but given that we have only observed Satan operating on the Earth, we should not say he fell any farther. In verse 21, Jesus prays, and calls His Father "Lord of heaven and earth." This supports Genesis 1:1, and the hierarchy of the creation, with Hell excluded from the list. Being a non-clergyman/non-theologian, I take personal comfort from what He says after: "...thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes..." He expands on this in 11:9 – "...Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." So it has been for me, as I am finding my answer to the question I had so many years ago: Where DID our ideas of Hell come from?
We can see God's intentions clearly in 11:11 – "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?" Given that, can we really believe that God in heaven will send anyone to roast in Hellfire forever? God may discipline, correct, and even burn away our dross, but His intentions are good to an infinite degree, being as He is, an infinite God. So, if we want to go to Heaven, will He send us to Hell? I say no, not just because I see no reason to think Hell exists, but because God deals with us by forgiving our sins in that He sent His Son Who takes away the sins of the world, making us fit for heaven.
"I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." (12:5) Hell again, but it is footnoted as "gehenna," and we have already covered that. Many see this verse as telling us that God is to be feared because He can send us to Hell, but two verses later Jesus says "Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows." Having used the vague pronouns "him" and "he," could He have been merely speaking of the rulers and magistrates who had the authority to relegate your dead body to the shame of being burned in the literal place, Gehenna? I note that He continued only six verses later in the same discourse, "And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers..." These are the very ones who have the authority/power to kill and send the dead body to Gehenna. As usual, a wider context corrects the one verse "proof text" method of interpretation, and again, I think the no-Hell theory makes more sense here than the Hell theory.
In Chapter 13, Jesus twice describes the Kingdom of God, and note that He doesn't call it Heaven. He speaks of a growing mustard plant and yeast in three loaves, things that happen on the Earth, not in a harp and cloud Heaven. As I have pointed out before, He does not describe it directly, but in terms of how it operates.
Then Jesus tells us, "...many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able...I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." (13:24-30) Jesus does not mention Hell, but He speaks of some being first and some being last. Does that imply that all go in, but some go in much later? Jesus here speaks of the master of a house who has shut the door for the night and refuses to let anyone in after that, even denying that he know those knocking. Remember that the morning will come, and the door will be opened, but maybe I am reading too much into this. The final lies ahead of us.
There is, perhaps, confirmation for the door being opened again in 14:14, where Jesus mentions "the resurrection of the just." Does it imply that there will also be a resurrection of the unjust? Responding to a man who stated that those who eat bread in the Kingdom will be blessed, Jesus the parable of the feast, in 14:16-24. Again, those invited (the First) did not go, but those not at first invited (the Last) got in instead. Further, the master of the house tells his servant to compel all sorts of people to come in, and we must assume this would include the good and the bad. Amazing – this, again, is how the Kingdom of God operates: good and bad brought into the Kingdom, and He said it!
Now we reach the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of the usual pillars and proofs of Hell – but there is a lot more going on here. First, all of Jesus' parables, as far as I can tell, are teaching about the Kingdom of God, especially how it operates. We should not view any of it as being literally true in itself. Consider how Jesus explains the parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:24-30) to His disciples. In verses 37-39 He gives it all away – He Himself is the Sower, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the Kingdom, the tares are the children of the "wicked one," the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. We could say that His parables are allegories or similes. No one has any problem with political cartoons – elephants and asses are political parties, bears are Russia, bulldogs are the UK, etc.
Given that, how should we regard the characters of this parable/allegory/simile? We will go step-by-step. First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in the East, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was "the last man standing," or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the nation of Judah.
Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man's table. This takes us back to Jesus' brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus' sores, for dogs are seldom mentioned in the Bible. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom without a selective process, Lazarus dies and is brought to
[the rest of Luke]
Abraham's bosom.
Now as I've said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called "hell" in the KJV, but footnoted as "hades." These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf - all that would have been easily understood by Jesus' hearers.
OK, we've got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) are now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43) Do you see how He rejected the fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.
Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the "good fig" Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split with Judaism about 150 AD. This split, at the time, was not as clear-cut as it might appear from our vantage point in time, but that's another subject. The rich man is not in such a good place. These "bad figs" have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah, the rich man, is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.
Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God's favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by "a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." I won't try to parse that nation down, but for the sake of convenience, let's just say it is the "nation" of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today's secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.
The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. Here, we see another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Jacob, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man's fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.
There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd.
In Chapter 19, Jesus relates the parable of the three servants and their talents, in verses 12 to 26. After He states that good servants will be given more and bad servants will be relieved of what they have, Jesus moves on to more serious matters in verse 27: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Just as in the Old Testament, there is nothing said of Him also sending them on to Hell after death.
In 19:43-44, Jesus briefly describes the coming Roman siege of Jerusalem, which He must have known would involve the deaths of many, many Jews. However, He says nothing about their fate beyond death.
In Chapter 20 is the parable of the vineyard over which the owner's son is killed. Jesus states that the owner will then destroy the tenants, but Hell for them is not mentioned. This is another instance of Jesus (the Owner of the vineyard) having His personal enemies killed, but remember that He has already told us that torturing people in fire is something He had never even thought of. Yes, it's only a parable, but I'm trying to cover every possible point. See 20:9-16.
Jesus makes an important point in 20:38 – "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." This must refer to a future time when all have been resurrected to life, and live unto God. When this is so, can anyone be dead, or still dead? Hell is not mentioned, and I understand that to be in Hell you must be dead, and stay dead. We really do see through a glass darkly, as Paul wrote – we tremble with uncertainty, knowing that many are dead, and hoping they are in Heaven, but fearing they are in Hell. Jesus gives us hope in His assurance that we do all live unto God, and will be returned to life – no, make that Life!
In 22:31, Jesus makes the odd statement to Peter: "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat." Just as with Job, Satan either doesn't care to, or can't, drag Peter down into Hell, mind you, if Hell even existed/exists. Some might think so, but no, he only wanted to "sift" Peter, apparently because he was unconverted, as Jesus indicates in the next verse: "...I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
Crucified, Jesus tells the thief who perceives His Lordship, "Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (23:43) I know that it is almost universally taught that Jesus and the thief were both in paradise THAT DAY, but is it so? This is a little off topic, but as I have said before, I do have my Biblical pet peeves. So, what do we know, given what we have learned up to this point?
Jesus and the thief would be together in paradise, at some point in time.
Jesus and the thief both died that day.
Being dead, the thief was in sheol, and still is, since the resurrection of the dead is still in the future.
Having taken on our sins, Jesus received the wages of sin (death) in spades – yes, He was also dead, very dead, in sheol.
Jesus was helled in the tomb, undertaken, but He was not in the Hell of Dante, Milton, or Baxter. The wages of sin are death, just as God says, not a ticket to Hell.
Jesus was helled for three days and nights, but He was not held, for He rose from the dead, just as we know that the gift of God is eternal Life.
He told Mary on the morning of His resurrection that He had not yet risen to His Father.
The original Greek did not have commas, so the placement of the comma depends on what did or did not happen on that day.
It really looks like Jesus and His thief did not make the scene in paradise that day, so the verse should be punctuated so: "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." It still makes sense as grammar, and is much more consistent with the rest of Scripture.
At the end of Chapter 23, along comes Joseph of Arimathaea - he asks for, and gets, the body of Jesus for burial. Just as today, by Roman law, he would need to be a family member to have his request granted by Pilate. I have read that he was Mary's uncle, but the evidence for it borders on legend.
In 24:46, the triumphant Jesus declares that He was "to rise from the dead the third day." That was from the dead, not from Hell.
So we leave the Gospel of Luke the Physician, seeing Jesus risen from the dead, not from Hell, for which we could find no evidence written by Luke.
The Gospel According to John
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3) We commented on this way back on page 2, but it bears repeating – if the Creator did not create it, no one else did. Given that God has not claimed anywhere in His Word to have made Hell, we should accept only what He does claim: Heaven and Earth. Religion teaches, and men believe that Hell exists, but is that really any different than casting spells and conjuring to make something happen? Yes, I am serious. Elijah and the prophets of pagan gods competed in prayer (I Kings 18), and we can see how all they did came to nothing. Elijah had such faith that he even had his altar, wood, and sacrifice soaked with water, but God sent fire to consume it all. This is what pleases God, not spiritual strongholds about things that do not exist. The endless assertions of endless churchmen do not make Hell so, any more than the millions of sincere Christians, who subscribe to a creed or statement of faith. These things lack the power to make anything real. Believe in Hell if you must, but know - that doesn't make it so.
Darkness yet again, in 1:5 – "...the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John is being poetical here, and it would not be wise to think of darkness as a thing. John is correct, darkness does not comprehend - simply because it is where light has yet to shine.
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (1:29) Now if the Hell theory were correct, John the Baptist might have said something very different, such as the Lamb saving us from Hell, but he failed to say so, and maybe he didn't need to.
We meet Nicodemus (note the Greek name) in Chapter 3. Confronted with the idea of being born again, or born from above, he wonders out loud if a man can come out of the womb a second time. Now, Jesus had a perfect opportunity here to expound on reincarnation – IF it was true. He did not take the bait. So what does this have to do with our thesis? Well, it's about what Paul speaks of in II Corinthians 10:3-5. He speaks of pulling down strongholds of belief, casting down imaginations/arguments and everything exalting itself against the knowledge of God. He speaks of bring every thought into captivity and obedience to Christ. Now, having looked through the Bible together as we have, if the reader is still with me, we know that the knowledge of God does not include Hell. It does not include reincarnation either, but most Christians will let that go by, no problem, for it is not a spiritual stronghold in their minds. Sadly, we have much difficulty (notice "cult" inside the word "difficulty") letting go of ideas we hold dear. The mental phenomena called "cognitive dissonance" begins when we consider a change in basic beliefs, and our minds are painfully pulled in both, or several, directions at once. Most people run for shelter then, almost always the shelter of their dear, old spiritual stronghold. Only a few will follow the Truth wherever it leads, and we know that Nicodemus did help Joseph bury the body of Jesus, so it's no stretch to think that he came to believe what Jesus was teaching him.
Before we leave Nicodemus, look at what Jesus was teaching him in 3:12-21. Jesus mentions Earthly and Heavenly things, but fails to mention Hellish things. He mentions ascending up and down from Heaven, but not down and up from Hell. In the famous John 3:16, He states that God's gift of Jesus to the world was so "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Hell is not given here as the alternative to everlasting life, but perishing, which is simple death, being left forever in the grave, in sheol. Jesus also speaks of saving the world, versus condemnation, and He defines that condemnation as men hating the Light, and loving darkness, because their deeds were evil. He could have offered Hell as the condemnation, but did not, and we see this over and over - just as He failed to expound on reincarnation, He misses one opportunity after another to put a foundation under Hell. Verily, consider this lapse, if you believe that Jesus always spoke the truth.
John the Baptist, in 3:36, says, "...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." I'm sure this is ammunition for the fire-forever crowd, but we already know from the Old Testament prophets (as Micah 7:18) that God will not always be angry, but will eventually show mercy.
In Chapter 5, Jesus lectures His Jewish opponents: "He that heareth...and believeth...shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death [not Hell] unto life...the dead [location not given – sheol is assumed] shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live...all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [grave this time, but still not Hell] and come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (5:24-29) Note that "damnation" in verse 29 is footnoted as "condemnation," and "condemnation" in verse 24 is footnoted as "judgment." A bit of research shines a light on this – it should be "judgment" in every case, but I'm guessing "judgment" was too mild a word. I'm calling this just another case of theo-illogical sleigh-of-hand, where loaded words are used for effect. In this case, I think it's to prop up Hell, and a condemning, damnationist God Who sends sinners there. Think about it, as I'm only catching a few here and there – I'm sure there must be many more. I'm sure a whole book could be written on sleigh-of-hand in this translation and others, but let's keep mostly on topic, shall we?
At 6:39, Jesus responds to His would-be followers, "...this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." So what's included in "all"? John the Baptist tells us in 3:35 – "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." All things! That's everyone, living and dead, the world, even the entire cosmos. Some verses later, Jesus says, "...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (6:65) So – since His Father gave Him all things, and since He will lose nothing, then it stands to reason that God will give unto every man to come unto Jesus at some point in time. A victorious gospel indeed!
In 8:24, Jesus answers His Jewish opponents, saying, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Here, Jesus misses another opportunity to threaten with Hell, but He only mentions death, which we know is the only wage of sin. Many believe that to die in your sins is to go straight to Hell, but if Jesus has been given all, and will lose nothing of it, then the gift of eternal life must be the eventual outcome of God's judgments, however severe they are after death and resurrection. It can be no other way, for anyone spending eternity in conscious torment is certainly lost, but Jesus stated that He would lose nothing. I'll go with Jesus on that, and He says more in 8:34-35 – "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [footnote: slave] of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever, but the Son abideth ever." Jesus is referring back to the Law of the Jubilee. At the start of the Jubilee year, a 49 + 1 year cycle, every man who had sold himself, or his family member, into slavery since the last Jubilee, went free and got to go back to his ancestral lands. Jesus is teaching that to sin is to become a slave to sin, but also that those in bondage to sin will become free of sin at a time set by God. Yes, the Jubilee principle, of which the freeing of slaves was a type and shadow, excludes Hell, for they cannot both exist.
A few paragraphs ago we looked at the words damnation, condemnation, and judgment, and at how judgment should have stood in place of the other two. In 9:39, Jesus explains that judgment, but not as we might have expected: "For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." Sight for the blind...and blindness for those who can see, or think they see? He might as well have said that He was going to turn the world upside down, and maybe that was His intent. Then he goes on, in verse 41: "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." This clarifies – those with limited faculties are excused, and those given more have fewer excuses. Did He not say that to whom more is given, more is expected? Take a look back at Luke 12:48, and also John 12:47 – "...I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." If you might think that this salvation has anyting to do with Hell, no, see Matthew 1:21 again: "...he shall save his people from their sins." As ever, Hell does not enter into the matter.
Jesus has yet more mind-blowing things to say. On being threatened with stoning, He asks His accusers, in 10:34, "Is it not written in your law, I SAID, YE ARE GODS?" This refers back to Psalm 82:6 – "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Now look ahead at I John 3:2 – "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." [emphasis added] That's hard to get your mind around, but there it is, and it is not New Age gobbledygook because Jesus said it.
Jesus tells Martha, just before He raises her brother, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (11:25-26) Well, what about those who don't believe in Him? Will they believe eventually, be lost, or go to Hell?? The final answer is yet to come.
Now in 12:31-32, we hear Jesus announce His victory: "...now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Once again, if the devil is indeed the prince of this world, we see that this world if where he is operating, not Hell. Also note that Jesus makes no exception to who will be drawn to Him, just all men. Hell is just not an issue here – if you can avoid using the overlay of Hell, you will realize that the plain text simply does not have it.
A truly useful tool to gauge the sayings of Jesus comes along at 14:2 – "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." [emphasis added] Ask yourself if Jesus, anywhere in the Gospels, makes a plain, straightforward statement about the reality of Hell. I can't find one, and if it were not so, He would have told us, right?
Another possible proof text shows up in Chapter 15 – "I am the true vine...Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away...If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (verses 1-6) We know that God's fire is for cleansing and purifying, so we suspect that these metaphorical branches are in the fire (not Hell) to have their dross, wood, hay, and stubble burned away. The fire-forever crowd will say my argument is weak at this point, and they are correct, but just note that Jesus does not speak of the final destiny of the branches which God cuts off – they are neither burned to ashes, nor burned forever, nor saved in the end. This text could be used for any camp, those who say the wicked are burned forever, those who say the wicked are burned to ashes and dead forever after, and those who see the eventual rehabilitation of the wicked. This one text does not resolve the issue, so we must look at all relevant texts and weigh the evidence.
I can find nothing else in the Gospel of John the Apostle bearing on our Thesis, nor any evidence or proof texts for Hell.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 29, 2016, 07:38:00 AM
The Gospel According to John
This text could be used for any camp, those who say the wicked are burned forever, those who say the wicked are burned to ashes and dead forever after, and those who see the eventual rehabilitation of the wicked. This one text does not resolve the issue, so we must look at all relevant texts and weigh the evidence.
The text that resolves the issue for me is 2 Peter 3:9 which says ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( Gk= 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone) to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance, which results in salvation.
What God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.
Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.
The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.
This text can save much time searching scripture for ever more texts supporting UR because according to 2 Peter 3:9 it's a done deal.God has said it, we must believe it. :dsunny:
Yes, it's a done deal in the ultimate sense, but in the here-and-now, it is still a process. Unlike God, we do not clearly see the end from the beginning, except as we understand what the Scriptures tell us.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 29, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
Yes, it's a done deal in the ultimate sense, but in the here-and-now, it is still a process. Unlike God, we do not clearly see the end from the beginning, except as we understand what the Scriptures tell us.
What kid knows everything from day 1. T'is all an on-going process. Greek uses on-going words which English diffuses.
Colossians 2;17 " These are a shadow of what was to come, but the reality is found in Christ."
Shadows give hints, but cannot completely disclose what they represent unless the light comes through.
Quote from: Ross on February 29, 2016, 10:02:01 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 29, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
Yes, it's a done deal in the ultimate sense, but in the here-and-now, it is still a process. Unlike God, we do not clearly see the end from the beginning, except as we understand what the Scriptures tell us.
What kid knows everything from day 1. T'is all an on-going process. Greek uses on-going words which English diffuses.
Colossians 2;17 " These are a shadow of what was to come, but the reality is found in Christ."
Shadows give hints, but cannot completely disclose what they represent unless the light comes through.
I suspect that, like Greek to English, human language cannot effectively communicate what is hid in Christ - in the shadows, so to speak. Maybe that is why Jesus so often began a parable with the phrase "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." The He would describe how it worked, rather than make a straightforward description, as we might find in a travelogue.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 29, 2016, 09:19:01 PM
I suspect that, like Greek to English, human language cannot effectively communicate what is hid in Christ - in the shadows, so to speak. Maybe that is why Jesus so often began a parable with the phrase "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." The He would describe how it worked, rather than make a straightforward description, as we might find in a travelogue.
Indeed. Col 2;3 " In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
He specifically explained the parable to the disciples.
Paul also made a point about speaking in fleshly terms because some were still not in spirit.
1 Cor 3;2,3 " I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it, and even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving like men?"
Which would seem to be logical for speaking in parables and hiding things until the appointed time for every individual.
No wonder a prophet has no honor in his own country - the world of flesh.
A Lookback at the Good News
I kept seeing, as I studied Gospel after Gospel, Jesus' statements concerning why He was there in that time and place. I decided to collect them all, and see what they add up to.
Matthew 5:17 – "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Matthew 9:13 – "...I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Matthew 10:34-35 – "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW."
Matthew 15:24 – "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew 18:11 – "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
Matthew 20:28 – "...the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Mark 1:38 – "Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth."
Mark 2:17 – "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 4:18-19 – "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luke 4:43 – "I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."
Luke 5:31-32 – "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 9:56 – "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
Luke 12:49 – "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"
Luke 12:51 – "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division."
Luke 19:10 – "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Luke 24:26 – "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?"
Luke 24:46-47 – "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
John 3:14-17 – "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
John 4:34 – "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
John 5:30 – "...I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
John 5:43 – "I am come in my Father's name..."
John 6:38-40 – "For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:48,51 – "I am that bread of life...if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
John 7:28-29 – "...I am not come of myself...for I am from him, and he hath sent me."
John 9:39 – "For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."
John 10:10 – "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
John 12:27 – "Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."
John 12:46 – "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."
John 15:22 – "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."
John 18:37 – "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth."
Jesus' stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
Amen! :ty: awesome verses and study!! :cloud9: ..and I agree with your conclusions!
The Acts of the Apostles
Hell first shows up in Peter's speech on the day of Pentecost, as he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27 – "...THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL..." Not surprisingly, "Hell" is footnoted here as "hades," - we know it as the Greek equivalent of "sheol," and have covered that previously. Peter goes on, in verse 31, to say that what David wrote in his Psalm applied to Jesus, that He was not left in hell/hades/the grave, and His body did not "see corruption," or decay. OK, we're good with that.
Chapter 5 presents us with the sad tale of Ananias and Sapphira, who died, not for holding back money, but for lying about it. Further, they are carried out and buried, but nothing further is said – as ever, it is just simple death. If they are going to Hell for one lie, then hope dims for all of us. However, remember that they followed the same God we do, Who kills and makes alive!
We meet up with Saul of Tarsus at the end of Chapter 7, and in Chapter 9 he is converted. He had been putting the followers of Jesus into prison, and we don't know today how many of them died there, or were put to death. Man's conception of justice might be to relegate Saul to Hell, but God had, and has, a higher kind of justice. God turned Saul from an enemy to a disciple, and Hell was not mentioned or involved. Truly, His ways are higher than our ways!
Reading along in Chapter 13, we come to something looking like predestination, "...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (verse 48) A person might easily be led to think some here got eternal life and some did not, and thus missed out and received an eternity in Hell. An eternity in conscious torment is sort of a life, right? But you're supposed to be dead in Hell – it does get confusing, doesn't it? Anyway, I looked the verse up in an interlinear version, and the Greek word translated as "eternal" is our familiar "aionion," so what is really being said here is that those who believed will get life in the age to come, having enjoyed the first resurrection, and those not believing, missing out. They will be resurrected later, even if they get tossed into the Lake of Fire, but I'm getting ahead of myself...again.
In Chapter 14 we once again read the formula "...the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein." (verse 15) With the anointing of the Holy Spirit, Hell is not added by the Apostles to heaven and earth, just the sea and what it contains. I know of no one who has postulated that Hell is in the sea – it would make no sense.
The following chapters have little of interest to our thesis, mostly being, like the books of the Maccabees, a record of going here and doing this-or-that. Proof of Hell was very lacking in Acts, for all the doings and locations.
:2thumbs:
Amazing, ain't it!? That in all that activity and preaching no warning to folks that they were in danger of horrible suffering forever and ever.. and didn't pass it on as a major doctrine either! ..they really dropped the ball on all that i guess - Not!! :smile:
He, He! Compared to most doctrines of the churches, it's not very easy to find a book about Hell. There is just too little to go on, and it would let the cat outta the bag. Do you recall seeing geography or anatomy books having transparent plastic pages with colorful overlays? You'd look at the page and then flip down the transparency to cover part of the map or image. The doctrine of Hell is just like that, done up in the same sort of lurid colors. [I like the word "lurid."] In the case of Hell, the overlay is mental and emotional, a spiritual stronghold to be sure. :flamebreath: :declare:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 02:46:22 AM
....In the case of Hell, the overlay is mental and emotional, a spiritual stronghold to be sure. :flamebreath: :declare:
what a great analogy! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 02:46:22 AM
He, He! Compared to most doctrines of the churches, it's not very easy to find a book about Hell. There is just too little to go on, and it would let the cat outta the bag.
Amen! :prankster:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 02:46:22 AM
He, He! Compared to most doctrines of the churches, it's not very easy to find a book about Hell. There is just too little to go on, and it would let the cat outta the bag. Do you recall seeing geography or anatomy books having transparent plastic pages with colorful overlays? You'd look at the page and then flip down the transparency to cover part of the map or image. The doctrine of Hell is just like that, done up in the same sort of lurid colors. [I like the word "lurid."] In the case of Hell, the overlay is mental and emotional, a spiritual stronghold to be sure. :flamebreath: :declare:
A friend of mine used to speak about wearing red glasses, everything looks red. Hellism/ET/ED are like that there is a veil that colors their view of God and when they read the scriptures, similarly to Jews under the law- the veil remains, their view of God distorted and miscolored.
Once that veil is removed, all the colors return, and we see the Father and the Son as they are.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
"...we shall be like Him..." just separates my head from my shoulders. It is so much more mind-blowing than "the just shall live by faith" which sparked the protestant reformation.
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans
The word "Hell" is not in this epistle, so we have that out of the way from the first.
In Chapter 6, we come up against this, verse 7 – "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Paul follows this up at the end of the chapter with "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (verse 23) Now if you remember what I said earlier about the Jubilee, you know that if we think of sin as our master, and Paul does mention us becoming slaves to sin, then at the start of the Jubilee, we go free, back to our inheritance. Paul is telling us the same, that death is our Jubilee, setting us totally free from our master, sin. It begins to look like a natural progression: bondage to sin, then death, release from sin, God's gift, and eternal life. Hell is not mentioned here at all! Ah! Do you see what this means? It means, if we are to believe Paul, that the common opinion among Christians that upon death, we are sent to Heaven or Hell, may just be totally false. No, Paul is telling us that though we sin now and die later, God intervenes with the GIFT of freedom from sin, and with that freedom, eternal (age-long) life as well. Our part is simply to believe it, accept it, and have faith in His promise.
By the end of Chapter 8, in verses 38 and 38, Paul is ready to declare, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." He does not even mention Hell as a factor.
Paul says rhetorically in 10:6-7, "...WHO SHALL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, WHO SHALL DESCEND INTO THE DEEP? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)" "Deep" here is footnoted as "abyss," a word seen only a few times in the New Testament. It is the same abyss the demons feared Jesus would send them to, and begged to be sent into pigs instead. Digging deeper (so to speak), I find that Paul paraphrased his source, Deuteronomy 30:12-14 very loosely. Given what we can read about the abyss, especially in the Revelation, I have difficulty thinking of Jesus being there, and it is certainly not directly comparable to Hell. Anyway, in verse 9, Paul adds that God raised Jesus from the dead, with the abyss not mentioned.
At 10:20, Paul quotes Isaiah, but I'll just go back and quote the prophet directly (65:1-2): "I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good..." The latter group would be 12-tribed Israel, and the former would be the pagan nations of the world. Yet Paul says in 11:1-2 – "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid...God hath not cast away his people..." We see here that there is hope for both groups in the Plan of God.
Continuing the thought, Paul goes on in Chapter 11, verses 12, 15, 23, 26, 29, and 32: "Now if the fall of them [Israel] be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles [nations]; how much more their fullness?...For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead?...And they [Israel] also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again...And so all Israel shall be saved...For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [footnoted "irrevocable"]...For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." The Israel Paul spoke of was not just the Kingdom of Judah, a Roman province at that time, for the Jews of Paul's day were just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Israel. Most of those who descend from Israel, from ALL those tribes, have no knowledge of their descent. In Paul's day, as in ours, Israel represents a LOT of people, but their identity is outside our scope. Paul's conclusion is in verse 16: "For if the firstfruit [Jesus] be holy, the lump [us] is also holy: and if the root [Jesus] be holy, so are the branches [us]." Jesus said Himself, as recorded in John 15:5 – "I am the vine, ye are the branches..." Vines have roots, do they not? So, truly, as Paul says in verse 32, God will surely have mercy on us ALL!
There is nothing more of interest to our thesis in this epistle, but many riches nevertheless. "The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." (Romans 13:12)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
"...we shall be like Him..." just separates my head from my shoulders. It is so much more mind-blowing than "the just shall live by faith" which sparked the protestant reformation.
Amen. Transformation is the core issue of the entire word of God, imo. That we will be like Him..we are the first fruits. That the whole creation will be restored, we are predestined to be conformed to His image. As ambassadors, bearing the precious seed, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and he has entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation".
Now all these things are of God. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2016, 01:09:30 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
.."we shall be like him for we shall see (understand) him as he is.." :smile:
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
"...we shall be like Him..." just separates my head from my shoulders. It is so much more mind-blowing than "the just shall live by faith" which sparked the protestant reformation.
Amen. Transformation is the core issue of the entire word of God, imo. That we will be like Him..we are the first fruits. That the whole creation will be restored, we are predestined to be conformed to His image. As ambassadors, bearing the precious seed, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and he has entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation".
Now all these things are of God. :o)
:thumbsup: The proverbial nutshell.
The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians
Again, the word "Hell" is not to be seen here, and "Hades" is only found as a footnote to 15:55, where it is rendered "grave" in the text. This may be a short chapter...
Paul brings up fire in Chapter 3: "Now if any man build upon this foundation [Jesus Christ] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble...it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide (footnoted as "endures") which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by [footnoted as "through"] fire." (verses 11-15) Can this really be any clearer? We are not burned, but saved, at least so it seems to me what Paul is saying. It is our works that are burned, or will be burned – the wood, hay, and stubble. What do these represent? Paul says, in verse 11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Given this foundation, then, men build on it things which endure, or things which do not. These would not be material, but surely they are the Fruits of the Spirit, of which He spoke. Paul enumerates them in Galatians 5:22 as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. These are the gold, silver and precious stones, which will endure the fire. In 5:19-20, Paul lists the wood, hay and stubble: "...Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like..." These do get burned up, these Tares. Can you begin to see that those who are tossed into the Lake of Fire are not burned up, but only their works? Yes, it is the Second Death, and when we read of that in the Revelation, it sounds very final, but it is not. We shall explain in due time.
In Chapter 5, Paul instructs the church at Corinth, "To deliver such an one [heinous sinner] unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh..." Is that to send him to Hell? No: "...that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (verse 5) Hell is not mentioned here, and I see no reason to think the recommended action takes place on any other place than the Earth.
We see the fruits of the Spirit again in Chapter 6, along with loss: "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (verses 9-10) Paul does not state that such people go to Hell. Given what we covered in Chapter 3, I insist that these types suffer the loss of their wood, hay, stubble, chaff and tares, and with that, the reward of inheritance in the kingdom. Think of any kingdom in this world – does every resident have the right to inherit? No, only those of the family of the king have that right. Now, those who become Sons and Daughters of God by adoption, also become members of the family of the King. They have the right to inherit in the Kingdom of God, but this other group (at best) will be the commoners of that Kingdom.
When Paul says, in 7:9, that "...it is better to marry than to burn.," remember that "burn" is footnoted as "burn with passion." There are no points for Hell here.
I am not much into so-called proof texts, but we have this in Chapter 15: "...since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God...he [Christ] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (verses 21-26) It seems Paul is outlining three resurrections:
1. Jesus the Christ, along with those few in Jerusalem who were raised at His death, as recorded by Matthew.
2. Those who belong to Jesus the Christ (the believers) at His Second Coming.
3. All the rest of humanity, after Jesus the Christ has overcome all enemies (put under His feet), including death.
Interestingly, the Law given to Moses connects three harvests with three feasts – barley with Passover, wheat with Pentecost, and grapes with Tabernacles. I won't go into this in detail, but note that barley is easy to thresh, wheat requires more work, but is gathered into the barn (unlike tares), and grapes must be stomped and pressed. Think of what the Revelation says about God's wrath and the winepress - it will be far better to be in one of the first two resurrections!
Lastly, the last resurrection takes place after Death is destroyed. Looking ahead, for all these things connect, the Revelation tells us that at some point in time, Death and Hell (footnoted as "Hades," so it could/should be grave/sheol) are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We now know from I Corinthians 15:26 that Death is destroyed, so I'm thinking the destruction takes place when Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire. What this means is that afterward, no one can still be dead and/or in Hell, right? It also means that the Lake of Fire cannot be Hell, and that the doctrine of an eternal Hell cannot possibly be true. There, proved.
Moving on just a bit, be aware that the passage above speaks of a time far ahead of anything in the Revelation, the "end," when Jesus "...shall have put down all rule and all authority and power...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him...that God may be all in all." (verses 24 & 28) As I asked above, if God is to become All in all, and the verses just quoted say so, then how can ANYONE still be dead and/or in Hell? Nope, it is simply not possible, but I have yet a few nails to pound into Hell's coffin...
As Paul winds up Chapter 15, he says, "...the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality...Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (verses 52-55) This is for believers, the second resurrection, and we see it as following the Law of the Jubilee – the trumpet sounds and all go free to their inheritance. (Leviticus 25:8-13) Those in the third resurrection will not inherit, I'm guessing.
Well, it was not a short chapter, but one that really begins to lay the Hell theory to rest. In this epistle, I have noticed that "judgment" is often replaced with the more loaded "condemnation" and "damnation." Be aware of such tricks, still operating in an epistle where Hell cannot be found.
The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians
Hell and Hades are not mentioned in this epistle either. We find little of interest until Chapter 10: "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God..." (verses 4-5) Now if we think of Hades and Hell as theories, with all their baggage, both emotional and intellectual, it becomes easier to view them as strongholds. I believe an unbiased look at the proof and evidence proves that this stronghold's props and foundations are rather shaky. Further, we can see the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter for what they are: literature, fiction, imaginations, not the Word of God. Even with the first two being epic poetry, they are still just works of imagination - fiction, literature – impressive, but not founts of Truth. Given what we have seen, the Hell doctrine should be viewed as a sort of theological graffiti.
There is no Hell, then, in II Corinthians, but ah, a short chapter this time.
:thumbsup: thank you Lazarus for this study and thread.. I'm a little behind in the reading but I have every intention of catching up.. It's a very good lesson and learning! And when I tell someone what a fallacy the theory is, my stance/the foundation will be that much more solid.. The more I know what I'm talking about the happier i am.. listeners may not always take me/us serious, so the more solid we know.. the better! :thumbsup:
(I hope the Spirit will guide you when you get to Revelation.. :Pray: ) :Peace2:
Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament. I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand. How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"? I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 13, 2016, 04:21:17 AM
Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament. I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand. How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"? I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:
I have been doing a similar study. Please tell me..do you believe, not in a fiery hell, but a corrective or chastisement type process that takes place after death, for unbelievers ?..many URers do.
Yes, I lean that way. The corrective process is likened to burning off the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble, but its exact nature is more spiritual, I think. I do think that the unbelievers will suffer loss, mainly the loss of the right to be heirs of the Kingdom, and to be full members of the family of God.
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians
Hell is quickly in trouble, for Paul says, "...though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8) Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief? Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine? Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle? No, we have not. We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you." On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels. Good news? No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.
In 5:14, Paul reminds his readers of what Jesus had said before: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Surely, a God Who instructs us so follows the same principle – does He love us enough to refrain sending anyone to Hell? Given what we have so far, we an answer YES! We know this because He loved us enough to send His Son, Jesus the Christ. For His part, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, when He could have asked His Father to punish them, and I won't say by sending them to Hell, for it seems not to exist. Can you really think of a worse crime in the eyes of God than to murder His Son? No, I can't either...so the rest must be forgiven as well. It just makes sense, in a short epistle where Hell cannot be found.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 13, 2016, 05:33:46 AM
Yes, I lean that way. The corrective process is likened to burning off the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble, but its exact nature is more spiritual, I think. I do think that the unbelievers will suffer loss, mainly the loss of the right to be heirs of the Kingdom, and to be full members of the family of God.
yes, I think so too...it seems some unbelievers, such as the beast and false prophet of Revelation, will suffer worse than others...their 'examination' seems to go on 'into the ages of the ages'.Let us trust the grace of God is such that the corrective process for most will be mercifully shortened and will not go on 'into the ages of the ages'.
Ultimately, we can be confident this restorative process will take place for all...look at Ezekiel 16:53 ►
New International Version
"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,
Context
Judgment on Jerusalem
...53"Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state....
God will even restore the fortunes of that most wicked of places, Sodom..who can doubt He will also restore the fortunes of those He corrects/ chastises ?. :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 13, 2016, 04:21:17 AM
Marie, you may have noticed that I have taken on a more aggressive tone in the New Testament. I feel it is justified, and I'm thinking the Revelation will be the Hell Theory's last stand. How do you like me calling Hell "theological graffiti"? I'm thinking more and more that Hell is like something rude you might find scrawled in a restroom stall. :doh:
:faint: Amen!! I'm thinking that is very accurate!! ..scrawled perhaps in anger and petulance.. an 'i hate you' manifesting on the bathroom wall..
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians
Early on, Paul mentions this, in 1:10: "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he [Jesus] might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him." Now, the fullness of times may be far, far in the future, but that is up to God. What I want the reader to notice is "gather together in one ALL things in Christ." [emphasis added] Paul makes no exception for anyone – it is all things in heaven and on earth. No one is relegated to Hell, no, all are gathered in Christ, the same Christ Who asked His Father to forgive the worst kind of sinners. "ALL things gathered together" here is another fail for the Hell Theory.
Paul speaks of Jesus in Chapter 4: "...WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE...(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (verses 8-9) Now there is no reason to think that this captivity is Hell, for unless you assume it, it is not there. Our servitude to sin is enough to fill the bill, is it not? In the same way, the phrase "the lower parts of the earth," is fulfilled by the tomb in which Jesus spent three days and nights – there is no need to assume He went to Hell unless you already assume Hell exists. What Paul says in verse 14 is very telling: "...we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive." I have pointed out a number of times where the text of this Book has been altered in translation, by sleight, by trickery, by cunning craftiness:
A neutral "judgment" was replaced by the more fearsome words "condemnation" and "damnation."
To reinforce that, "age" was replaced by "world," to veil God's plan for heaven and earth over long ages. With "world" in place, it was easy for the church to serve as gatekeeper to the next "world."
Pagan words such as "Hades" and "Hell" were brought in, again confusing the Truth about man's fate after death.
God's Name was diminished to "LORD," while pagan gods got their unearned due.
I'm sure there are things I've missed, but as Jesus said, we need to be as wise as serpents, and not be taken in by such trickery.
In 5:5, Paul reminds the readers of his epistle that, "...no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." A lot of people who already have Hell as a construct on the foundation of Christ, assume that these nasty folks go to Hell. As we have shown over and over, Hell is uncreated, unstressed, unpreached, and unproven in the pages of this Book. I believe the Bible is a Reference Standard of Truth, and the Hell Theory just does not make the cut. This means that the doctrine of Hell is just one more piece of wood, hay or stubble to be burned off, and the doctrine's follower to suffer loss, along with the miserable company of verse 5, who will all suffer loss, but be saved as through fire, as the Bible says. No doubt, they will be raised in the last resurrection, as the grape harvest, the grapes of wrath, but they will lose the right of any inheritance in the Kingdom, and probably more besides. Read 5:5 again – it does NOT say these folks go to Hell – that is an overlay, an assumption. Do you not think here of what Jesus said about the splinter and the beam? We should not think to judge the 5:5 crowd, for our judgment may come back on us if we think they are to sent to Hell...not that we will, either.
Neither Hell nor Hades are to be found in Ephesians.
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Philippians
"Perdition" shows up in 1:28, but there is no reason to think it has anything to do with Hell. I seems to refer to the adversaries of the Good News, and their expectation that the followers of Jesus will be
In 2:10, Paul tells us, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth." There is no reason to think he is referring to Hell here, but only to those in the grave, who will bow the knee in the future, just like those now alive "in earth."
At 3:14, Paul refers to a prize: "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." What is this prize? Backtrack to verse 11: "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." To be in the resurrection of the believers – a worthy goal! However, notice that unlike the modern "fire insurance" preachers who stress Hell-avoidance, Paul has no concern for any possibility of ending up in such a place.
Chapter 3 ends with an answer to those who limit God, Father and/or Son, by ideas such as Hell being final (no exit), or that we place ourselves there, and close the proverbial door. Paul speaks of God's power to Glorify our carnal bodies, "...according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (verse 21) So, Jesus is able to subdue ALL things, but will He? Yes, look at II Peter 3:9 – "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." There you have it – Jesus is able and Jesus is willing. What can we add to that? Salvation is looking like a done deal, even if the process of salvation is not finished yet.
Given able and willing, we can say with Paul, "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice." (4:4)
Another Pauline letter closes without Hades or Hell, but with much said of joy and love.
still behind in my reading.. but was reflecting today of John the Baptist saying the ax is laid to the root of the trees and trees not bearing fruit will be thrown to the fire.. how E.D. assumes this is 'hell' but really, isn't it more closely about the nation and 70 a.d.? (and isn't that more in line with how the prophets spoke warnings? but now 'they' preach illogical and hateful hellfire, alienating ppl from God's love)
I've also been thinking lately how in both the hebrew and the greek it seems more, to me, like the thinking was more present oriented.. (example "be filled with the spirit" vs "be being[/i] filled..") And there was no clearly focused U.R. because it was simply known, to believe is to have life.. with no reference to after death all hope is lost / no chance of repentance,changing course.. Just Messiah = life, and Messiah = savior of the world..
Also was thinking, in the torah, no hell; national judgments were the prophet's preaching(s).. and the baptist, again national.. Jesus didn't teach 'hell' - 'gehenna' gone into/easily explained.. no hell in Peter's preaching at the opening of the 'church age'; Paul didn't preach it (in Acts).. James didn't write it; Paul didn't write it in his letters.. neither did Peter.. nor John..
:2thumbs: this thread makes ya think..!
I am currently wrestling with the 'torment' passages in Revelation..i.e. 'smoke of their torment goes up to 'the ages of the ages'...the Devil, Beast and False Prophet tormented' into the 'ages of the ages'...seems like a very long time...the word for 'torment' comes from 'touchstone'..anyway, will keep you posted. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: marie glen on March 14, 2016, 06:41:08 PM
Paul didn't write it in his letters.. neither did Peter.. nor John..
:2thumbs: this thread makes ya think..!
hmmm, John talks about 'torment' in Revelation..in connection with those accepting the 'mark' and the unholy trinity tormented in the Lake of Fire 'into the ages of the ages'...if the false prophet and Beast are indeed human, John seems to be saying their 'examination' will last an incredibly long time...hmmm, but I'm currently wrestling these 'difficult' passages.
It's interesting to do a word study on 'torment'(Greek ='basanos')
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 928: βασανίζω
βασανίζω: (imperfect ἐβασάνιζον); 1 aorist ἐβασανισα; passive (present βασανίζομαι); 1 aorist ἐβασανίσθην; 1 future βασανισθήσομαι; (βάσανος);
1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.2. to question by applying torture.
3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,
4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.
5. Passive to be harassed, distressed; of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind, Mark 6:48; of a ship tossed by the waves, Matthew 14:24. (In Greek writings from Herodotus down. Often in O. T. Apocrypha.)
:Chinscratch: "greater condemnation" (judgment..) - If 'hell' of E.D. persuasion is the destination of all those not having been reconciled to God during their brief life before dying.. how then does one receive "greater damnation" whether individual or nation/city? Would the flames burn hotter? According to the nature of fire, I can't see thAt..
...branches not on the vine, wither and are gathered to be used as fuel.. (fuel as metaphor / prophecy? 70a.d.... :Chinscratch: and parallel to the letters to the Asia Minor churches?... warning-fell away from their first love.. fiery destruction.. now are Muslim lands.. and parallel goats gathered to armageddon, imo that is, in "day of the LORD"?)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 11:46:40 PM
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." Paul follows this up at the end of the chapter with "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (verse 23) Now if you remember what I said earlier about the Jubilee, you know that if we think of sin as our master, and Paul does mention us becoming slaves to sin, then at the start of the Jubilee, we go free, back to our inheritance.
:mshock: wow, I never have thought or read of that.. very intriguing! And Jubilee was SO important to Yahweh! that Israel not forsake it..
Oh yes.. Jubilee will be for all! All in His good timing and order..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 08, 2016, 11:46:40 PM
"…though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8) Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief? Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine? Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle? No, we have not. We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you." On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels. Good news? No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.
you know.. I've wondered that very thing also..
Quote from: darryl on March 14, 2016, 11:29:09 PM
I am currently wrestling with the 'torment' passages in Revelation..i.e. 'smoke of their torment goes up to 'the ages of the ages'...the Devil, Beast and False Prophet tormented' into the 'ages of the ages'...seems like a very long time...the word for 'torment' comes from 'touchstone'..anyway, will keep you posted. :Chinscratch:
I've been thinking for a while now that it's the
smoke of torment (of fiery regret, burning shame, etc, imo) and that the smoke is metaphor for the memory of... shall remain with us.. all watchers.. (learners) memory of will rise up 'for ever'.. as a foundational lesson that one cannot wander from God who is life (and perfection, imperfection being the opposite of life)
and for a long time have thought the beast (world beast/body) and the false prophet/teacher/teaching are not individuals but institutions of man
active at the time of Jesus' return... :smile: :Peace2:
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians
The first chapter of Matthew stated that the Messiah would be named Jesus (footnoted as 'Literally "Saviour"') for He would save His people from their sins, not from Hell. Years later, Paul in this letter, says the same, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..." (1:14) Again, Hell is not mentioned, so that must not be part of Jesus' mission or purpose. Let's get down to it – if Hell does not exist, saving people from it is a fool's errand. Jesus was and is no fool, so if He did not pursue saving from Hell, and failed to teach His disciples to save from Hell, concluding that there is no Hell is just intelligent and rational. Now if Hell does exist, and God both cares not who goes there, and has failed to tell us of it, we're going to have a problem with the idea that God and Jesus are good, loving and truthful. It is very difficult to make a case for God and Jesus being bad, hateful liars. Do you know many Christians who would be willing to say it? Would it be sacrilege or blasphemy? I don't know, but it would not fly in any church I know of. The conclusion must be then, that Hell does not exist in a Cosmos created by a God Who said, "Let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)
The idea of 1:14 is expanded on in verses 19 and 20: "For it pleased the Father...having made peace through the blood of his [Jesus'] cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven." Do you see that "all things" here means everything in the created Cosmos? Yes, it would cover everything in Genesis 1 and 2, neither of which mention Hell.
Paul winds up Chapter 1 with, "...warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (verse 28) So, what happens to those not presentable as perfect? It's a fair question, and many would answer that they go to Hell, but what about "every man in his own order"? Let's not forget too quickly what Paul told us in I Corinthians 15 about the End, and how Death would be the last enemy to be conquered. If a time comes when death is no more, those who are dead MUST be resurrected, and if God is then to All in all, these "not presentable as perfect" folks must have had their dross, chaff, wood, hay, and stubble dealt with, cleansed, or burnt off. However it is done, they MUST be presentable at this point, and that means they cannot be in Hell.
I see mention of spiritual treasures in this epistle, but not of Hell.
The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians
Now we stressed in our comments about the last epistle that Jesus was/is saving us from our sins. Here, in 1:10, Paul says more: "...Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." He echoes John the Baptist who asked some (who had come to him) who had warned them to flee from the coming wrath. (Luke 3:7) This wrath could be the soon-coming siege of Jerusalem, or it could be end-times events. It was not declared to be Hell, unless Paul was using code-words, and being the plain-speaking man that he was, I doubt it.
At the end of Chapter 4, Paul gives his readers a quick glimpse of the Second Coming. Heaven gets a mention, and the Earth is implied, but Hell is absent , but since only the believers are mentioned, we would expect that. In the beginning of Chapter 5, Paul says, "...the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..." (verses 2-3) Remember that Hell is not mentioned here, and unless told otherwise, we should assume a destruction is something happening in the real, literal world.
We cannot find Hades or Hell in this epistle.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! on Colossians and Thessalonians... Very good! :smile:
The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians
We may be in trouble here in 1:8-9 – "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
However, I have three points to make:
1. Hell is not mentioned here - a consistent lack in all of Paul's epistles.
2. We have established, at least I hope I have in the minds of my readers, that the fire of God is for cleansing, for purification, and ultimately for salvation. Remember my comments on Colossians.
3. Then there is "everlasting." I looked it up, as I do many texts, on the www, in an interlinear version. Yup, the Greek is our now-familiar "aionion." The verse should read, then, "age-long destruction." This means, as I keep stressing, that the unbelievers will have their dross, etc. burned away, will suffer loss, and yet will be saved in the End.
In Chapter 2, Paul speaks of the appearance of the "son of perdition," with a connection to Satan, and a "falling away." In verse 7, he mentions the "mystery of iniquity" which is in his day, already at work. He then states God's response: "...for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (verse 11) In the centuries after these times, the purity and simplicity of the Good News was diluted and polluted by layer after layer of theology, tradition and accommodation to pagan ways. Pagans were brought in, in name only, but not really made fit for the Kingdom. The Doctrine of Hell was only a part of the problem, but it may be the part repelling more unbelievers than any other. That is why I write.
That is everything of interest to our Thesis in this epistle in which neither Hades nor Hell can be found.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 16, 2016, 11:09:47 PM
The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians
We may be in trouble here in 1:8-9 – "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
However, I have three points to make:
1. Hell is not mentioned here - a consistent lack in all of Paul's epistles.
2. We have established, at least I hope I have in the minds of my readers, that the fire of God is for cleansing, for purification, and ultimately for salvation. Remember my comments on Colossians.
3. Then there is "everlasting." I looked it up, as I do many texts, on the www, in an interlinear version. Yup, the Greek is our now-familiar "aionion." The verse should read, then, "age-long destruction." This means, as I keep stressing, that the unbelievers will have their dross, etc. burned away, will suffer loss, and yet will be saved in the End.
In Chapter 2, Paul speaks of the appearance of the "son of perdition," with a connection to Satan, and a "falling away." In verse 7, he mentions the "mystery of iniquity" which is in his day, already at work. He then states God's response: "...for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (verse 11) In the centuries after these times, the purity and simplicity of the Good News was diluted and polluted by layer after layer of theology, tradition and accommodation to pagan ways. Pagans were brought in, in name only, but not really made fit for the Kingdom. The Doctrine of Hell was only a part of the problem, but it may be the part repelling more unbelievers than any other. That is why I write.
That is everything of interest to our Thesis in this epistle in which neither Hades nor Hell can be found.
we are still ok..'Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,'should actually read (in the Greek ) 'from the face of the Lord' and not 'from the presence of the Lord'..i.e. the 'destruction issues forth from God's 'face'.
A close call indeed because 'from the presence of the Lord' implies separation from God, which we don't want.Why?, because post- mortem separation from God is a main pillar of ECT belief.So, heave a sigh of relief that the text does not mention any post- mortem separation from God...we are still ok !. :banana: :dsunny: :laughing7:
The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy
Early on, Paul advises Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turn aside unto vain jangling:" (1:4-6) This makes me wonder if I am ministering questions – I'd rather be doing charity/love out of a pure heart, but if I can resolve this Hell question in a way that glorifies God, I can edify even so, and not be just a vain jangler.
In 1:15, Paul reminds us: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." Yes, sinners, as He said Himself. Remember the parables of the Shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find 1 straying sheep. Recall the parable of the feast, where the Master of the house ordered His servants to compel random people on the road to come into His feast. Jesus made His disciples Fishers of Men, and these men fished not with spears or hook and line, but with nets. Nets take fish in bulk, and are not at all choosy. Are these facts compatible with the Hell theory which leaves a large part of mankind permanently in the lurch?
Winding up the first chapter, Paul mentions two men, "whom I have delivered unto Satan." (verse 20) Once again, we see Satan in operation on the Earth, in this literal world we live in. Paul's purpose? "...that they may learn not to blaspheme." Whatever happened to these two men, they must not have died and had their souls dragged off to Hell, as many would assume here.
Now in 2:4-6, we have a text which should be able, on its own, to bring the Hell Theory crashing down: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..." So God will have all men saved? "Will have" is footnoted "desires to," so we have willing, but how about able? Are God's sovereignty and His omnipotence not doctrines in most churches? Yes, they are, and we also know that God has used His Powers over and over to overthrow the puny wills and actions of men. How about Noah's flood? How about the destruction of Sodom and several other cities? How about the killing of all those Canaanites? I really wish I could stop the mouths of some of those theologians who babble on about how God would not violate the wills of men, but regretfully lets them enter Hell. Rubbish!
OK, we've got willing and able, which we covered once before, but also notice as well, that God is willing (and able) to save all men, and that Jesus is a ransom for all men, in perfect accord with His Father, and with what we have read thus far. As I said, this should resolve the whole question, but let's move on, keeping in mind that what we read must agree with what we have read.
Chapter 4, verse 1, says, "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to...doctrines of devils." Well, the doctrine of Hell is just chock full of devils, isn't it? Then verse 10 expands on 2:4-6: "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Of course, He is the savior of believers, but note carefully – of all men as well. How is the Hell Theory to stand when this epistle has already stated three times that all men are saved? Paul concludes the thought: "These things command and teach." (verse 11) I'm trying to do just that.
The last thing I want to comment on is 6:13 – "...God, who quickeneth [footnoted "gives life to"] all things..." This is God's Way – to create, to make life, to maintain life, to restore life. In the Cosmos of such a God, death is only a temporary aberration, not a permanent destination.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 18, 2016, 03:08:14 AM
The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy
Early on, Paul advises Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turn aside unto vain jangling:" (1:4-6) This makes me wonder if I am ministering questions – I'd rather be doing charity/love out of a pure heart, but if I can resolve this Hell question in a way that glorifies God, I can edify even so, and not be just a vain jangler.
In 1:15, Paul reminds us: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." Yes, sinners, as He said Himself. Remember the parables of the Shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find 1 straying sheep. Recall the parable of the feast, where the Master of the house ordered His servants to compel random people on the road to come into His feast. Jesus made His disciples Fishers of Men, and these men fished not with spears or hook and line, but with nets. Nets take fish in bulk, and are not at all choosy. Are these facts compatible with the Hell theory which leaves a large part of mankind permanently in the lurch?
Winding up the first chapter, Paul mentions two men, "whom I have delivered unto Satan." (verse 20) Once again, we see Satan in operation on the Earth, in this literal world we live in. Paul's purpose? "...that they may learn not to blaspheme." Whatever happened to these two men, they must not have died and had their souls dragged off to Hell, as many would assume here.
Now in 2:4-6, we have a text which should be able, on its own, to bring the Hell Theory crashing down: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..." So God will have all men saved? "Will have" is footnoted "desires to," so we have willing, but how about able? Are God's sovereignty and His omnipotence not doctrines in most churches? Yes, they are, and we also know that God has used His Powers over and over to overthrow the puny wills and actions of men. How about Noah's flood? How about the destruction of Sodom and several other cities? How about the killing of all those Canaanites? I really wish I could stop the mouths of some of those theologians who babble on about how God would not violate the wills of men, but regretfully lets them enter Hell. Rubbish!
OK, we've got willing and able, which we covered once before, but also notice as well, that God is willing (and able) to save all men, and that Jesus is a ransom for all men, in perfect accord with His Father, and with what we have read thus far. As I said, this should resolve the whole question, but let's move on, keeping in mind that what we read must agree with what we have read.
Chapter 4, verse 1, says, "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to...doctrines of devils." Well, the doctrine of Hell is just chock full of devils, isn't it? Then verse 10 expands on 2:4-6: "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Of course, He is the savior of believers, but note carefully – of all men as well. How is the Hell Theory to stand when this epistle has already stated three times that all men are saved? Paul concludes the thought: "These things command and teach." (verse 11) I'm trying to do just that.
The last thing I want to comment on is 6:13 – "...God, who quickeneth [footnoted "gives life to"] all things..." This is God's Way – to create, to make life, to maintain life, to restore life. In the Cosmos of such a God, death is only a temporary aberration, not a permanent destination.
well said..here here ! :banana: :banana: :banana:
The Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy
"...For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him...if we deny him, he also will deny us." (2:1-12) What does this mean? It goes well for the believer, but for the unbeliever, denying Jesus places him in the not-presentable-as-perfect group, to be raised from the dead only at the End, missing out on the first resurrection, and suffering loss.
Paul advises us, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2:15) It is not sufficient to sit under the preaching of any man, especially in these days where ministers are typically trained in seminaries, and trained by professors who pursue ideas which the average member of their denomination might think quite odd. I found this out myself when my father and I took a night course on the Old Testament at the local Baptist seminary. My father disagreed with the professor so much that he dropped out. I tell you, Christian, there is just no substitute for your own reverent study of the Word, using some helps such as a good concordance, as accurate a Bible translation as you can possibly find, and internet helps with the Hebrew and Greek. A good knowledge of both sacred and secular history is a benefit too. There are things in the Word which leave us wondering, but the basic message is the same, from one end to the other. Study then, but do not be one who is "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." (3:7 & 5) The basics are easy to understand and spiritually discerned, so that children and fools understand, but the learned do not – such is the mystery of God's doings.
When he wrote this letter, Paul was in chains, in prison, and awaiting his death. He seems cheerful, but warns Timothy that, "...the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (4:3-4) The sound doctrine he mentions would be what we have read in the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles. None of them establish Hell. What lust would turn Christians to the fable of Hell? I think it is the all-too-human lust to have vengeance on our personal enemies. Remember that one's enemy is also a child of the same God Who told us to forgive them, and even to minister to them.
That is my take on II Timothy, an epistle where, once again, Hades and Hell cannot be found.
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Titus
Hades and Hell are not mentioned in this epistle. I only care to quote this: "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." (1:2) It is just as Jesus told His disciples, that if things were not so, He would have told them. It is just as Paul writes, never bringing up the subject of Hell. Blessed hope! Eternal security!
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Philemon
This closes out the epistles of Paul, and as ever, he fails to mention Hades or Hell.
The Epistle to the Hebrews
This epistle is largely about the priesthood of Jesus, and there is nothing relevant to our thesis until 10:26-27 – "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Wait – should that not have read "devour the sinner"? Nope, the judgment and fiery indignation will devour the adversaries, and might that be our carnal nature, our tendency to sin? Yes, I think so, and it is fully consistent with the cleansing fire burning away our dross, chaff, etc. Otherwise, who can be saved, for have we all not sinned since knowing the Truth? Nevertheless, we should toe the line carefully: "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (verse 29) In this passage, with judgment, fiery indignation, devouring and sore punishment, there is no mention of Hades or Hell. On the other hand, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (verse 31)
The epistle speaks of shaking: "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain." (12:26-27) This sounds a lot like the burning of wood, hay and stubble so that the gold, silver and precious stone only may remain. Hebrew parallelism again, and then verse 29: "For our God is a consuming fire." This is not a bad thing, as we see in verse 10: "For they [earthly fathers] verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he [God] for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."
The epistle advises, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines..." (13:9) Perhaps the reader thinks my no-Hell slant is strange, but be aware that I do not offer it as a doctrine – it is more like an anti-doctrine. Further, at the time this epistle was written, the concept of Hell was restricted to the pagan systems of belief, and did not displace the doctrine of universal salvation until about 500 AD. Given what we have seen and read so far, I think it is fair to say that Hell can be classed as one of those "divers and strange doctrines."
Whoever wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews did not write of Hades or Hell.
The Epistle of James
We run into hell here, in 3:6 – but it's a mistranslation of Gehenna, that literal city dump where literal things are literally burned.
The concept of Hell is dependent on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and that is dependent on the notion that you have a soul, some ineffable and immortal thing within you. However, you are a soul, and are dead when you die. The Hell theory dictates that when you die, you are immediately in Hell, or in Heaven if you are very lucky. This is what James has to say: "For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." (4:14)
There is no support for Hell in this epistle.
The First Epistle of Peter
We run into a baffling passage in Chapter 3, which says that Jesus was "...quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing..." (verses 19-20) We are not told what this prison is or was, or what the fate will be of the spirits held there. We do know that Peter does not identify it as Hell, so I think those who say that Jesus descended to Hell and preached there are in error, even if Hell exists, which it does not. No, it must be quite the opposite – these antediluvians died in the flood, their bodies were buried in mud, their souls were no more, and their spirits returned to God. God must have sequestered those spirits, but we are just not given enough information to state anything worthwhile here. I don't care to try to erect any theology on such an obscure text, or on the one following in 4:5-6 – "...him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead..." I understand the judging of the living and the dead, but not the preaching of the gospel to the dead. In Chapter 1, Peter refers to things angels desire to look into, and I think I am like that in relation to these texts.
A serious caution if given in 4:17-18 – "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?" Peter speaks rhetorically, and provides an answer only by implication, but note that he does not say the ungodly and the sinners go to Hell. They go to judgment to be sure, we all do, but we must decide from other texts what the end of them is. I see no reason yet to change the idea that they will suffer loss, but yet be saved.
Another caution is in Chapter 5: "...your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." (verse 8) This looks scary on the surface, but have you ever considered that the verse implies that there are some whom he may not devour? It would not be any virtue in us, but by way of God's protection.
This epistle does not support Hell.
The Second Epistle of Peter
In case the reader has this book as his first exposure to the idea of the salvation of all, and he/she reads in the epistle, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (1:20) Be aware that I have explored the entire Bible using my common sense, comparing books, chapters and verses, trying to tease out the truth concerning Hell and everything associated with it. I have been as fair in my assessment as I could be, but I have found that the Hell Theory is a massive 404 (not found). Further, if the reader still thinks my interpretation is private, he or she must ignore the many writers of the Bible, the One who inspired them, and numerous church fathers. None of them spoke of Hell. Judgment and punishment, yes. Hell, no.
Two verses later, in 2:1, Peter warns, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them..." I maintain that Hell is one of those "damnable heresies," and "damnable" in the footnote is "destructive," which has a different spin. "Damn," "damnation," "damnable," they all have to do with being sent to Hell, and so are loaded terms and misleading. They are part of what Peter is talking about.
Three verses after that, we run into hell again: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...." We have a new word here, as "hell" is footnoted as "tartarus," and this is the only place where it appears in the Bible. Just like the term "Hades," this new term comes from Greek mythology, and it brings in a lot of baggage with it, just as "Hades" did. It might shed some light on the abyss mentioned in Luke 8, in which the demons begged Jesus not to send them there. I am seeing a pattern here, of various words translated as "hell" to throw a prop under a theory. Consider this list:
sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
An honest translation of these terms would make Hell seem a lot less real.
Peter says of some sinners, "...these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed...shall utterly perish in their own corruption." (2:12) This sounds like the eternal destruction of the wicked, but hey, it's just one verse, and Peter fails to say their sad fate is eternal, as he also does in 3:7, where he mentions "...the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
In 3:9, Peter is more upbeat: "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Lastly, Peter comments on the epistles of Paul, "...in which are some things hard to be understood." (3:16) Oddly, I find more in Peter's epistles that I have a hard time understanding. At least, there is no doubt about the lack of Hell in either man's epistles.
The First Epistle of John
John tells us, "...now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him..." (3:2) I have mentioned this before, but note that we are the sons of God NOW in this age, and will be so much more in the next age, so much so that we will be like Jesus! This must be one of the rewards of the righteous.
In Chapter 5 we read, "...whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world..." (verse 4) Apparently, the world needs to be overcome, but Hell is not mentioned, so maybe the avoidance of Hell is not an issue with John.
Ending his epistle, John fails to caution the readers to avoid Hell, but tells them to avoid idols. Perhaps idols were the bigger issue in an epistle where Hades and Hell are not to be found.
The Second Epistle of John
John writes of truth and falsehood, but doesn't mention Hades or Hell.
The Third Epistle of John
Again, John writes of truth, falsehood, good and evil, and fails to mention Hades or Hell.
The Epistle of Jude
Jude speaks of certain angels, "...reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (verse 6) It is easy to see that when the great day arrives, though a long way off, the chains may or may not cease. Was Jude writing for effect? The word he used, "aidiois," does support the KJV word choice, but here it must mean a long time.
Writing of Sodom & Gomorrha, Jude says they, "...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (verse 7) The Greek word here means age-long, eternal, or a very long time. We all know that those cities are not now burning, but the results of their burning are still with us.
In verse 9, we see mention of Michael being involved in some dispute with the devil over the body of Moses. As ever, we see the devil operating on the Earth, not in Hell.
Jude goes on at length about ungodly people in the church, who he calls, "...wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (verse 13) In this case, "for ever" means age-long, but still a long time. Jude paints a vague, bleak future for these folks, but does not insert Hades or Hell into his epistle.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
This closes out the epistles of Paul, and as ever, he fails to mention Hades or Hell.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
did not displace the doctrine of universal salvation until about 500 AD.
and hereabouts begins "the dark ages" (if I'm remembering right)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
The concept of Hell is dependent on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and that is dependent on the notion that you have a soul, some ineffable and immortal thing within you. However, you are a soul, and are dead when you die. The Hell theory dictates that when you die, you are immediately in Hell, or in Heaven if you are very lucky. This is what James has to say: "For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." (4:14)
:idea2: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
We run into a baffling passage in Chapter 3, which says that Jesus was "...quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing..." (verses 19-20)
"...quickened by the Spirit: By which" by which Spirit - "also he went" (when?) "and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God
waited in the days of Noah" (when did He go via the Spririt and preach to them? - imo) "while the ark was a preparing..." (verses 19-20) :2c: and why? and note: to only them? many more would have perished (died) in the meantime..
"ready to judge the quick and the dead" - the quick - "to have Christ is life" - the dead - not yet have Christ..?
"if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
I have explored the entire Bible using my common sense, comparing books, chapters and verses, trying to tease out the truth concerning Hell and everything associated with it. I have been as fair in my assessment as I could be, but I have found that the Hell Theory is a massive 404 (not found).
:laughing7: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them..." I maintain that Hell is one of those "damnable heresies," and "damnable" in the footnote is "destructive,"
:Chinscratch: it sure is, imo, very destructive! blasphemes our Father's 100% Good character, every day! and shuts the door on faith for MANY.
the word tartarus makes me wonder which language originally Peter wrote this in, and did he use the word Tartarus - :dontknow: - http://studybible.info/IGNT/2%20Peter%202:4
tartarus
noun, Classical Mythology.
1.
a sunless abyss, below Hades, in which Zeus imprisoned the Titans."chains of darkness" "sunless abyss"... the fallen (wayward) nature? which is a potential bottomless pit?
I did find this from - http://www.2001translation.com/Hell.htm :
"Although this Greek word has wrongfully been translated as Hell in other Bibles, the term Tartarus (
from Greek Mythology) originally meant the
place where gods (not humans) were sent
:Chinscratch: those ancient posers? 'the gods'... whether chains of darkness are literal chains.. or metaphor.. darkness - locked into judgment - cannot now reverse course back to their original place or state..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
In 3:9, Peter is more upbeat: "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
An honest translation of these terms would make Hell seem a lot less real.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ
This book will be Hell's last stand, and it does appear four times, each time translated from "Hades."
The first instance of "hell" is in 1:18 – "I am alive...and have the keys of hell and of death." The Greek, as I said, is "hades," the equivalent of "sheol." Jesus is telling John that He can open or close death, sheol, the grave, the pit.
Hell is next seen with the pale horse and its rider: "...a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (6:8) With a theological Hell not established, and "Hell" footnoted as "hades," we must see this as just a lot of dying, and bodies going into the grave, pit, sheol, hades.
The last two instances are close together: "...the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire..." (20:13-14) Hell is not mentioned again in the Bible, and as ever, it's hades, and as usual it's associated closely with death. So, the sea gives up its dead, OK. Death also gives up its dead, OK, but with no one dead, how can anyone be in Hell? Now if you really subscribe to the Hell of Dante, Milton and Baxter, how do you get around the plain wording of your KJV that Hell will give up the dead that are in it? What about "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"? Do you see how if you put the Doctrine of Hell under the magnifying lens, you kill it just like an ant on a summer day?
Backtracking now, let's take a look at what else we can find in the Revelation. In 2:13, we read: "I know...where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [throne] is...where Satan dwelleth." Where is that? In the city of Pergamos, a literal place. So here's Satan in the Earth again, not in Hell.
Speaking of a false prophetess in Thyatira, Jesus says that He, "...will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation...And I will kill her children with death." (2:22-23) All that, but no one is relegated to Hell.
Chapters 8 and 9 have to do with the opening of the seventh seal and the blowing of the seven trumpets. By the time all is done, 1/3 of mankind is killed, but the rest fail to repent of their evil. Is that all God asks and desires of us? I think so, for with repentance, He can then begin His work in us. Astonishing – all this death and destruction because men won't repent. In all of it, Hell is not mentioned.
In Chapter 10, a mighty angel swears by Him, "...who created heaven...and the earth...and the sea." (verse 6) As ever, Hell is left out.
Chapter 8 tells the tale of the birth of the man child, apparently Jesus, and the dragon who tries to devour him at His birth. After that, there was a war in Heaven, and we can't put a date to it, not knowing if it happened just after Jesus was taken up, or just after the woman fled into the wilderness, or 1,260 days (years) after that. At any rate, "...the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan...he was cast out into the earth." (verse 9) As ever, we see that Satan is here on Earth. If we remember the opening scene of the Book of Job, this will make sense: "...neither was their place found any more in heaven." (verse 8) and "...the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (verse 10)
Chapter 13 tells us the fate of some who do wrong: "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." (verse 10) He that sendeth to Hell shall be sent to Hell? Nope, not there.
Chapter 14, verses 10 and 11, seem to support Hell: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Is this Hell? No, it is not, for several reasons. First of all, look at the setting – this entire section of the Revelation is set in Heaven. The torment of these particular wicked people is taking place in front of the holy angels and the Lamb, so it is taking place in Heavenly places, not in Hell, right? Further, they are being tormented with fire and brimstone. Now I am well aware that these are associated with Hell, but we know by now that the fire has to do with the way God deals with wickedness and spiritual dross – the fire is at least, metaphorical. Brimstone, aka sulfur, was in ancient times, used as a fumigant and ritual cleanser, and that would have been well understood by the first-century readers. It was often found at hot springs and volcanoes, so it should be apparent that the elements of Hell were cobbled together from Earthly things – hot, steamy, fiery, and sulfurous. However, we see sulfur here in the Heavenly places. Further, we are told that the smoke of this burning goes up "for ever and ever" – but does it? An interlinear version gives the Greek transliterated as "aionas aionon" or in English as "ages of ages." So you see, this is not the forever-and-ever-amen Hell, it is more like Purgatory, with an exit to Paradise at the end of a temporal suffering. Do you see that the sufferers have no rest day or night, but it is not said that they suffer forever. Lastly, be very aware that this is not called Hell in the text. This word, Hell, was added in later, as witnessed by all those many footnotes: "or sheol," "or hades," "or Gehenna," "or Tartarus." To me, all the word substitutions are obvious signs of theological bias, and now that we've seen all four, it's time to give notice. The translators showed their hand in these two verses, where they missed a fine chance to put a prop under Hell. Oops!
You see, in the time of John the Apostle when he wrote down the Revelation, this word "Hell" would have been some archaic form, spoken by tribes with which the early Christians as yet had no contact. I got curious, so I looked in the OED again, and here are some old forms of Hell:
Old English – hel
Old Frisian – helle, hille
Old Saxon – hellja, hella
Middle Dutch – helle
Old High German – helle
Old Norse – hel, heljar
Gothic – halja
Original Teutonic - halja
Among these linguistic notes were some very old meanings, such as "literally, the coverer or hider," and "to hide, conceal." This ties in with what I said many pages ago when I explained that Hell is also a verb. By the way, the OED has dated examples of the use of most words, and for Hell, the earliest was in an Old English document, dated about 825 AD. By this time the Roman Church had the Vulgate Bible in Latin, using forms of "infernum" to replace "sheol" and "Hades." It was a fine word at the time, and only acquired the fiery meaning it has today after the rise of Hell theology.
Chapter 14 ends with a symbolic depiction of the two resurrections. First, we see the resurrection of the just in verse 16: "...he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Now that sounds simple and easy.
But then, "...another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle...And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." (verses 17-20) It is easy to see that the wicked receive a much rougher treatment! We are told in verse 18 that an angel having to do with this reaping/resurrection "had power over fire." If the fire symbolism is consistent, then God's cleansing power is to be applied to this group, but first His wrath.
I got to wondering how much blood came out of the winepress, and how many people it represented. I had to convert the Greek stadion into feet, for which I took a high and a low figure, estimated the height of a horse's bridle above the ground, and made all the unit conversions I needed to arrive at total gallons. Calculations and approximations gave me 31 to 55 million gallons of blood, assuming a cylindrical pool five feet deep. Assuming 1.24 gallons of blood for an adult, I arrived at an estimation of 25 to 44 million people in the grape harvest or resurrection of the wicked. You might think me an optimist if you expected the figure to run into the billions, and these figures could be far off the mark, as the shape of the pool of blood is not given, and the data given in the Revelation may be only symbolic.
Chapter 18 is all about the Whore of Mystery Babylon and her destruction. In 19:3 we see that the smoke of the burning of the Whore and her City goes up, "for ever and ever." Again, the Greek is "ages of the ages."
The rest of Chapter 19 concerns a very short war between Jesus and His heavenly armies versus the gathered forces of the Beast and the False Prophet. Their armies are killed, and "...both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (verse 20) Is this Hell? We won't say here, for the final answer is (finally!) close at hand, but here the translators have missed another great chance to put a prop under Hell.
In Chapter 20, we see Satan get bound for 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, aka, the abyss (see the Greek). After this sentence, Satan gathers those He can deceive for a final battle - a short one - for they are devoured by the same fire from Heaven that we have seen so many times. I suppose they go directly into the Lake of Fire, just as "...the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." "Day and night" are correct, but "for ever and ever" is our usual "ages of the ages."
After that comes the Great White Throne Judgment, and we don't know exactly when this occurs, but everyone who ever lived seems to be there to be judged: "...the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (verses 13-15) First, remember that we have covered this before – it should read "Hades," not "hell" in these verses. Second, note that death and hades have given up their dead – that would be all the dead, and plus the living, would be all of humanity, Adam and Eve forward. Third, death and hades are cast into the Lake of Fire, and that must mean that there is no further death, except for those who were being cast in as well. Finally, note that the fate of those whose names were not written in the book of life, is to be cast into the lake of fire – BUT the "tormented day and night for ever and ever" does not apply to them, only simple death, as I have stated over and over from Genesis on.
Now is the big answer to the big question: Is the Lake of Fire Hell? No, it is not Hell, the place of eternal conscious, torment in fire. They have fire in common, but the resemblance ends there, as the Lake of Fire is temporal, lasting only ages of the ages, holding dead (unconscious) people, who are therefore not tormented.
In Chapter 21, we can read a confirmation of the meaning of 19:14 – "...there shall be no more death." (verse 4) However, some are still dead in the Lake of Fire: "...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (verse 8) I don't know if these two things are concurrent, or if "no more death" means no one is dead or no one will die anymore.
In Chapter 22, along with the closing comments, is this: "...without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." I assume these are outside the New Jerusalem in the Lake of Fire.
This wicked group is not left there, but refer back to First Corinthians 15: "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God...when he shall have put down all rule and authority and power. For he must reign , till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." With death destroyed, the Lake of Fire MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did so long before. With dross, tares, wood, hay, stubble, and everything else burned away, leaving what gold, silver and precious stones remain, these will suffer loss, but will be saved through fire, presentable at last to God and the Kingdom!
And death shall have no dominion!
Quote
Hell is next seen with the pale horse and its rider: "...a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (6:8) With a theological Hell not established, and "Hell" footnoted as "hades," we must see this as just a lot of dying, and bodies going into the grave, pit, sheol, hades
Amen,.. a pale sickly horse... and the grave (including the mass grave) follows after this one (after this element of the latter age).. beasts often symbolic of governments.. KJ says wild beasts..
"death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them".. death and the grave-the place of the dead..
Quote
Backtracking now, let's take a look at what else we can find in the Revelation. In 2:13, we read: "I know...where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [throne] is...where Satan dwelleth." Where is that? In the city of Pergamos, a literal place. So here's Satan in the Earth again, not in Hell.
Speaking of a false prophetess in Thyatira, Jesus says that He, "...will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation...And I will kill her children with death." (2:22-23) All that, but no one is relegated to Hell.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: (aha!! 'satan's throne' i had never thought of that! "on earth"..)
I believe there are still many mysteries not understood in the Book of Revelation - blessed are those who hear and heed.. but one of those mysteries, is not a hell.. :gsmile'
Here's a new chapter:
DUST, BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL – and the utter impossibility of being sent to Hell
What are we, anyway? What happens to us when we die? Versions of "you'll have pie in the sky when you die" are common, and mourners are consoled with the idea that their lost loved one is in a "better place." Just like the harp-on-a-cloud version of Heaven, the Bible says nothing like this, but holds out the Promise of the Resurrection. I propose that before we consider the afterlife, we need a proper understanding of body, soul, and spirit – how we were made.
It's easy to miss what's going on in Genesis when God made Adam, so let's look at those few, meaningful words: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul."
(Genesis 2:7 KJV II)
First, God took some dirt (in fact, the Miao people refer to Adam as the "Patriarch Dirt"):
dirt --> [God transforms it into] --> a lifeless body.
OK, we've got a body, and we can't even call it dead, as it has not yet lived, but:
lifeless body --> [God breathes into it the Breath/Spirit of Life] --> Adam, a living soul, a living person with breath.
Simplified, we have:
body + breath/spirit = soul
Now we've got a soul, which by the implied Biblical definition, is the living, breathing person, not some ineffable, ethereal thing. Also implied, is that you do not HAVE a soul, but you ARE a soul. This is widely misunderstood.
Still with me? I tell you, it's hard to make people understand this! It's a mindset, a stronghold, but we need to understand it in the way God sets it out, not the way the world does. I believe the rest of the Bible uses this understanding of "soul" consistently, and this understanding makes some passages of the Bible plain, which otherwise are confusing.
To deepen your understanding, let's reverse the process. When you die, you stop breathing. Now, a lot of things happen at and after death, but the Biblical view equates life with having breath, so I'm going to stick with that. We have lots of indicators of death these days, such as the heart stopping, lack of pulse, lack of brain activity, but ultimately decomposition, the returning to dust, is the final marker. Lack of breathing meets Biblical criteria, and points to death.
Made simple: soul - breath = body.
Expanded a bit, we get:
living person (soul) - life (breath) = dead/lifeless body.
It's just the making of Adam in reverse, and what do we end up with? One thing implied by the proper Biblical understanding of body, spirit, and soul may surprise you.
The Breath/Spirit returns to God, who gave it. It belongs to Him, and since it is most certainly one of the seven Spirits of God, it is part of Him. That being so, it doesn't go to Hell if it's part of God, does it? To say so is close to blasphemy, in my opinion.
The body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of being in the grave - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to an eternity in Hell, is there? The idea seems absurd to me.
Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, just as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything - it's just like a chemical molecule when it is broken up into its component atoms. Poof! Consider a water molecule undergoing electrolysis - the hydrogen bubbles off the cathode, and oxygen bubbles off the anode. Asking where the soul went is as pointless as asking where the water went. For the Soul to be sent to Hell, it must be remade by putting Breath/Spirit back into a body - but then you've got that part of God in Hell again, absurd and blasphemous. I suspect that those who preach and teach Hell have not thought the matter through to the end.
So there you are - neither Spirit, Body, or Soul can be sent to Hell. For those who insist that God can resurrect people and send them to Hell, I can only reply on two levels. First, advocates of Eternal Torment have misunderstood the character of a loving God. The God of the Bible is a God of the living, not the dead. At some point, as written in the Revelation, both Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Further, we are told that Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (I Corinthians 15:26). Two verses later, we are told that God will become All in all.
This leads us to two questions:
How can anyone be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed?
If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, how can God become All in all?
The only conclusion this writer can come to is in the taunt of I Corinthians 15:54-55: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
It's really that simple. Note that I am not saying people will escape responsibility for their evil works, or be punished for them. I am saying that a loving God punishes for a purpose, and for a time, not for torment's sake and not for eternity. Keep in mind the principle of the Law of the Jubilee, which states that at a set time, all debts are cancelled, and everyone in bondage goes home free to their lands and homes. God instituted the Jubilee for an ancient society, but it points to a future where everyone will have their sins forgiven, and they will go free of bondage and the debt of sin to enjoy their inheritance, as co-heirs with Jesus the Christ. This will certainly involve the New Earth, and possibly the New Heavens as well.
Secondly, Hell, as most people think of it, is a concept but not a reality. Let me explain. For the first few centuries AD, the doctrine of universal salvation was orthodox, especially in the eastern churches. However, with many pagans coming into the body of believers, pagan mindsets and ideas came in as baggage with them. Former ideas and concepts were hard to get rid of, and began to color Christian theology and Biblical understanding. Little by little, Sheol became thought of more and more as being like Hel, Hades or Infernum. The Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, began to replace the Biblical concept of death and resurrection. Immortality of the soul also made eternal life in a place of fire possible in the minds of men. Oddly, lots of Christians today subscribe to both the idea of the Immortal Soul, and death and resurrection at the same time. Most never see the contradiction. In time, these concepts also affected Bible translations, so that we see words translated as "Hell" which mean no such thing. There are good translations which do not contain the word at all. I have found that, in the centuries since the concept of Hell entered Christianity, that all the literature on the subject has been theological (I prefer "theo-illogical") speculation or fiction. Yes, fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton, to the prose of Mary K. Baxter and many, many movies and "Ewetoob" videos.
Here's how reconciliation goes:
dirt --> [God makes it into] --> a body
body --> [God gives it a bit of His Spirit/Breath] --> a soul
soul --> [God gives it more Spirit (the Earnest)] --> a justified soul
justified soul --> [God gives it the fullness of the Seven Spirits after death & resurrection] --> a Glorified Soul
Job done, rest and eternity ensue.
Wow Lazarus! Totally awesome + extremely logical! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I never thought of it like that before -
..that
dust = body + breath = living soul, or, by another name, a living, and, or breathing being...
((not really a question of where to 'store' them all in between death and resurrection, imo))
And, if He were to lose those not saved during this life.. a merciful God would surely simply not resurrect, as opposed to punish or torment forever (and ever).. Which of course we think of as ridiculous. And no biblical support for eternal annihilation either..
And since HE does resurrect ALL, then surely HE has plans for ALL..
"If I be lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw ALL to me" Jn 12:32 ((thAt's the plan for ALL))
"Remember and return unto Jehovah, Do ALL ends of the earth, And before Thee bow themselves, Do ALL families of the nations" Ps 22:27.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
"22 for even as in Adam ALL die, so also in the Christ ALL shall be made alive,
23 and each in his proper order, a [1]first-fruit Christ, afterwards [2]those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24 then -- [3]the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless ALL rule, and ALL authority and power --" (including death)
"25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put ALL the enemies under his feet --
26 the last enemy is done away -- death;
27 for ALL things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that ALL things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the ALL things to him,
28 and when the ALL things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the ALL things, that God may be the ALL in ALL."
Twelve ALL's in that bit of scripture alone..
The last enemy done away with is death, which is thrown into the LOF at which point.. no more death, nor dead.. God being ALL in ALL..
:banana: :banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 12, 2016, 09:30:08 PM
Here's a new chapter:
DUST, BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL – and the utter impossibility of being sent to Hell
What are we, anyway? What happens to us when we die? Versions of "you'll have pie in the sky when you die" are common, and mourners are consoled with the idea that their lost loved one is in a "better place." Just like the harp-on-a-cloud version of Heaven, the Bible says nothing like this, but holds out the Promise of the Resurrection. I propose that before we consider the afterlife, we need a proper understanding of body, soul, and spirit – how we were made.
It's easy to miss what's going on in Genesis when God made Adam, so let's look at those few, meaningful words: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul."
(Genesis 2:7 KJV II)
First, God took some dirt (in fact, the Miao people refer to Adam as the "Patriarch Dirt"):
dirt --> [God transforms it into] --> a lifeless body.
OK, we've got a body, and we can't even call it dead, as it has not yet lived, but:
lifeless body --> [God breathes into it the Breath/Spirit of Life] --> Adam, a living soul, a living person with breath.
Simplified, we have:
body + breath/spirit = soul
Now we've got a soul, which by the implied Biblical definition, is the living, breathing person, not some ineffable, ethereal thing. Also implied, is that you do not HAVE a soul, but you ARE a soul. This is widely misunderstood.
Still with me? I tell you, it's hard to make people understand this! It's a mindset, a stronghold, but we need to understand it in the way God sets it out, not the way the world does. I believe the rest of the Bible uses this understanding of "soul" consistently, and this understanding makes some passages of the Bible plain, which otherwise are confusing.
To deepen your understanding, let's reverse the process. When you die, you stop breathing. Now, a lot of things happen at and after death, but the Biblical view equates life with having breath, so I'm going to stick with that. We have lots of indicators of death these days, such as the heart stopping, lack of pulse, lack of brain activity, but ultimately decomposition, the returning to dust, is the final marker. Lack of breathing meets Biblical criteria, and points to death.
Made simple: soul - breath = body.
Expanded a bit, we get:
living person (soul) - life (breath) = dead/lifeless body.
It's just the making of Adam in reverse, and what do we end up with? One thing implied by the proper Biblical understanding of body, spirit, and soul may surprise you.
The Breath/Spirit returns to God, who gave it. It belongs to Him, and since it is most certainly one of the seven Spirits of God, it is part of Him. That being so, it doesn't go to Hell if it's part of God, does it? To say so is close to blasphemy, in my opinion.
The body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of being in the grave - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to an eternity in Hell, is there? The idea seems absurd to me.
Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, just as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything - it's just like a chemical molecule when it is broken up into its component atoms. Poof! Consider a water molecule undergoing electrolysis - the hydrogen bubbles off the cathode, and oxygen bubbles off the anode. Asking where the soul went is as pointless as asking where the water went. For the Soul to be sent to Hell, it must be remade by putting Breath/Spirit back into a body - but then you've got that part of God in Hell again, absurd and blasphemous. I suspect that those who preach and teach Hell have not thought the matter through to the end.
So there you are - neither Spirit, Body, or Soul can be sent to Hell. For those who insist that God can resurrect people and send them to Hell, I can only reply on two levels. First, advocates of Eternal Torment have misunderstood the character of a loving God. The God of the Bible is a God of the living, not the dead. At some point, as written in the Revelation, both Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Further, we are told that Death is the last enemy to be destroyed (I Corinthians 15:26). Two verses later, we are told that God will become All in all.
This leads us to two questions:
How can anyone be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed?
If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, how can God become All in all?
The only conclusion this writer can come to is in the taunt of I Corinthians 15:54-55: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
It's really that simple. Note that I am not saying people will escape responsibility for their evil works, or be punished for them. I am saying that a loving God punishes for a purpose, and for a time, not for torment's sake and not for eternity. Keep in mind the principle of the Law of the Jubilee, which states that at a set time, all debts are cancelled, and everyone in bondage goes home free to their lands and homes. God instituted the Jubilee for an ancient society, but it points to a future where everyone will have their sins forgiven, and they will go free of bondage and the debt of sin to enjoy their inheritance, as co-heirs with Jesus the Christ. This will certainly involve the New Earth, and possibly the New Heavens as well.
Secondly, Hell, as most people think of it, is a concept but not a reality. Let me explain. For the first few centuries AD, the doctrine of universal salvation was orthodox, especially in the eastern churches. However, with many pagans coming into the body of believers, pagan mindsets and ideas came in as baggage with them. Former ideas and concepts were hard to get rid of, and began to color Christian theology and Biblical understanding. Little by little, Sheol became thought of more and more as being like Hel, Hades or Infernum. The Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, began to replace the Biblical concept of death and resurrection. Immortality of the soul also made eternal life in a place of fire possible in the minds of men. Oddly, lots of Christians today subscribe to both the idea of the Immortal Soul, and death and resurrection at the same time. Most never see the contradiction. In time, these concepts also affected Bible translations, so that we see words translated as "Hell" which mean no such thing. There are good translations which do not contain the word at all. I have found that, in the centuries since the concept of Hell entered Christianity, that all the literature on the subject has been theological (I prefer "theo-illogical") speculation or fiction. Yes, fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton, to the prose of Mary K. Baxter and many, many movies and "Ewetoob" videos.
Here's how reconciliation goes:
dirt --> [God makes it into] --> a body
body --> [God gives it a bit of His Spirit/Breath] --> a soul
soul --> [God gives it more Spirit (the Earnest)] --> a justified soul
justified soul --> [God gives it the fullness of the Seven Spirits after death & resurrection] --> a Glorified Soul
Job done, rest and eternity ensue.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I think most of the other world religions are more humane because the believers and non-believers have the same punishments.
If the religions of the world are more humane, I would like some one to explain to me why the most inhumane conditions in the world exist in the countries under their influence. India(Hinduism), China(Buddhism, Taoism), the Islamic states(Islam), Africa(Tribalism, Animism) are the hardest places in the world for the average person to live- the most violent and oppressive and depraved.
I think thats has to do more with Theocracy than the religion itself. Once political power becomes involved is when even the most humane religions get nasty, such as with the bloodbath of the Reformation.
Yea, I agree with that mostly, altho Christianity has to be pretty corrupted to become theocracy, so imo it is no longer Christianity by the point it is shedding blood to enforce faith.
Here's a new chapter, a word study on "sheol," finished this afternoon. This chapter pushes the book past two important milestones: 50,000+ words and 200+ pages. It's coming together. Constructive criticism on this new chapter, please.
THE SHEOL CHAPTER
In this chapter, I am going to adjust my focus from the general text of the Bible to a single term, "sheol," generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. The decision to do so grew from a seed of suspicion, when verses with "hell" kept turning up, though it (hell) was translated from "sheol," which was also often rendered by the much less theologically-loaded "grave" or "pit." Was this honest translation or was there a slant to which verses were translated one way or the other? I started in Strong's Concordance, but it said, "SHEOL, See HELL." Consulting the entry for "Hell," I had before me all the verses containing the word "Hell" in the KJV, from Deuteronomy to the Revelation (see my comments on pages 10 and 11). Now as I said much earlier, "sheol" is translated in the KJV three ways: grave, pit or hell, so we have our categories, and we can ignore instances where any of these three are derived from other words, such as those meaning the literal grave.
First, here is a list of the verses with "sheol" translated as "grave" or "pit" in the KJV:
And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. Genesis 37:35
And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 42:38
And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:29
It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:31
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. Numbers 16:30
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Numbers 16:33
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. I Samuel 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. I Kings 2:6
Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. I Kings 2:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. Job 7:9
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13
If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13
Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. Job 24:19
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5
O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:3
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. Psalm 31:17
Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. Psalm 49:14-15
For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. Psalm 88:3
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psalm 89:48
Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth. Psalm 141:7
Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: Proverbs 1:12
The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough. Proverbs 30:16
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Song of Solomon 8:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11
I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Isaiah 38:10
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. Isaiah 38:18
Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. Ezekiel 31:15
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Hosea 13:14
Now for a list of verses, with "sheol" translated as "hell" – about an equal number of verses:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; II Samuel 22:6
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Job 11:8
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:6
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm 16:10
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Psalm 55:15
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Psalm 86:13
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Psalm 116:3
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Proverbs 5:5
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 7:27
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 9:18
Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? Proverbs 15:11
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Proverbs 15:24
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14
Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. Proverbs 27:20
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 5:14
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:15
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Isaiah 28:18
And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Isaiah 57:9
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Ezekiel 31:16-17
The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ezekiel 32:21
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. Ezekiel 32:27
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: Amos 9:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: Habakkuk 2:5
Observations – Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate "sheol" as the translators have. The could have let "sheol" stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. However, they let about half the instances fall to the literal "grave" or "pit," and about half to "hell." I suppose they needed some support for their Hell in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-to-hell, there is so very little to go their way.
In comparing the camp of "grave/pit" and the camp of "hell," I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for "sheol" to be rendered as "grave" or "pit" when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the "hell" camp mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent. In the "hell" list of this chapter are Isaiah 57:9, Ezekiel 31:16-17, and Ezekiel 32:27, which have real world contexts. It might be useful for better understanding, to read each verse and mentally insert "hell" for "grave/pit," and vice versa. I think the reader will see what I am saying about context.
Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were placed in one camp or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I'm sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, "...he bringeth down to hell...", but what would they have done with the following, "...and bringeth up."? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the "grave/pit" list.
We have the same problem in reverse, in the "hell" list. Psalm 16:10's "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell...," should have been given over to the "grave/pit" camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from Hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We se it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.
The translators did make a few other mistakes. In our "hell" list is Deuteronomy 32:22, which depicts hellfire burning in the real world, out of its proper bounds. Lastly, we have Jonah's prayer from "out of the belly of Hell." Well, no, that should read, "out of the belly of the fish." Let's not forget where the prophet really was, but the translators forgot the context.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2014, 06:20:08 AM
Laz, I fear most of what is called Christians today read the Bible from NT to OT and are tutored by theologians who have read in the same directions. I applaud your work, Thayer collected and wrote much of the same, but Bible Truth is not to be embraced when the legend and lore is more accepted and the imaginations of men make them feel good. I like the work! :dsunny:
Who is Thayer?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 05, 2016, 03:54:05 AM
Here's a new chapter, a word study on "sheol," finished this afternoon. This chapter pushes the book past two important milestones: 50,000+ words and 200+ pages. It's coming together. Constructive criticism on this new chapter, please.
THE SHEOL CHAPTER
In this chapter, I am going to adjust my focus from the general text of the Bible to a single term, "sheol," generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. The decision to do so grew from a seed of suspicion, when verses with "hell" kept turning up, though it (hell) was translated from "sheol," which was also often rendered by the much less theologically-loaded "grave" or "pit." Was this honest translation or was there a slant to which verses were translated one way or the other? I started in Strong's Concordance, but it said, "SHEOL, See HELL." Consulting the entry for "Hell," I had before me all the verses containing the word "Hell" in the KJV, from Deuteronomy to the Revelation (see my comments on pages 10 and 11). Now as I said much earlier, "sheol" is translated in the KJV three ways: grave, pit or hell, so we have our categories, and we can ignore instances where any of these three are derived from other words, such as those meaning the literal grave.
First, here is a list of the verses with "sheol" translated as "grave" or "pit" in the KJV:
And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. Genesis 37:35
And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 42:38
And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:29
It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:31
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. Numbers 16:30
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Numbers 16:33
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. I Samuel 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. I Kings 2:6
Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. I Kings 2:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. Job 7:9
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13
If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13
Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. Job 24:19
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5
O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:3
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. Psalm 31:17
Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. Psalm 49:14-15
For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. Psalm 88:3
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psalm 89:48
Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth. Psalm 141:7
Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: Proverbs 1:12
The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough. Proverbs 30:16
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Song of Solomon 8:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11
I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Isaiah 38:10
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. Isaiah 38:18
Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. Ezekiel 31:15
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Hosea 13:14
Now for a list of verses, with "sheol" translated as "hell" – about an equal number of verses:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; II Samuel 22:6
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Job 11:8
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:6
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm 16:10
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Psalm 55:15
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Psalm 86:13
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Psalm 116:3
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Proverbs 5:5
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 7:27
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 9:18
Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? Proverbs 15:11
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Proverbs 15:24
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14
Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. Proverbs 27:20
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 5:14
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:15
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Isaiah 28:18
And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Isaiah 57:9
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Ezekiel 31:16-17
The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ezekiel 32:21
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. Ezekiel 32:27
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: Amos 9:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: Habakkuk 2:5
Observations – Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate "sheol" as the translators have. The could have let "sheol" stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. However, they let about half the instances fall to the literal "grave" or "pit," and about half to "hell." I suppose they needed some support for their Hell in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-to-hell, there is so very little to go their way.
In comparing the camp of "grave/pit" and the camp of "hell," I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for "sheol" to be rendered as "grave" or "pit" when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the "hell" camp mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent. In the "hell" list of this chapter are Isaiah 57:9, Ezekiel 31:16-17, and Ezekiel 32:27, which have real world contexts. It might be useful for better understanding, to read each verse and mentally insert "hell" for "grave/pit," and vice versa. I think the reader will see what I am saying about context.
Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were placed in one camp or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I'm sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, "...he bringeth down to hell...", but what would they have done with the following, "...and bringeth up."? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the "grave/pit" list.
We have the same problem in reverse, in the "hell" list. Psalm 16:10's "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell...," should have been given over to the "grave/pit" camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from Hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We se it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.
The translators did make a few other mistakes. In our "hell" list is Deuteronomy 32:22, which depicts hellfire burning in the real world, out of its proper bounds. Lastly, we have Jonah's prayer from "out of the belly of Hell." Well, no, that should read, "out of the belly of the fish." Let's not forget where the prophet really was, but the translators forgot the context.
This is great. Seeing the verses translated as "grave/pit" in contrast with the ones translated "hell" is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that hell is a mistranslation at best, and a willful and conscious manipulation of scripture to fit a theological lie at worst (and honestly seeing the contrast makes me think the latter).
Good work Lazarus!
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2014, 09:38:21 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 14, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
The King James Version also translates what should be "Tartarus" as "hell," which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4 for the "gloomy caverns" where "sinning messengers" are "kept for chastening judging." (see the attachment)
Brother, even though you say you disagree with the judgment being "before the lake of fire," you go on to say, "they are judged out of "the books" and then those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are thrown into the LOF." That is the same thing I'm saying. So why do you say, "It seems incorrect to me that the judgment happens before the lake of fire?"
We may be having a quibble due to misunderstanding each other. This is how I see it.
At the 2nd resurrection, there is the Great White Throne. That is where the "books" are opened(Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel). Then there is the Lake of Fire, for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book. That is their judgment/correction.
They exit the LOF into the ALL IN ALL.
What's the ALL IN ALL?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on October 15, 2016, 07:36:25 PM
What's the ALL IN ALL?
Read I Corinthians 15 - the target verse is #28.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 15, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
This is great. Seeing the verses translated as "grave/pit" in contrast with the ones translated "hell" is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that hell is a mistranslation at best, and a willful and conscious manipulation of scripture to fit a theological lie at worst (and honestly seeing the contrast makes me think the latter).
Good work Lazarus!
Thank you, GodIsLove! I wondered when someone would notice the new chapter. I have found in my investigation of Hell, that it gets more absurd the closer you look at it. It gets really absurd when you consider "dying and going to Hell." So you're dead. But...conscious torment in Hell requires you to be alive, right? But you're dead. But you must be alive to suffer Hell. But you're dead... :doh: There is no logical solution, unless you opt for the pagan Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and mainstream Christianity did just that.
BTW, I like your user name, and it occurs to me that that is the sort of name used in the OT. I wonder what "GodIsLove" would be in Hebrew...?
Before I quit, yes, I suspect the latter too: willful/conscious manipulation of the Scripture. The KJV in general seems to me to be theology-driven, rather than language-driven. It's a Spirit of Religion. :punish:
Quote from: chester-blowfold on October 15, 2016, 10:34:25 AM
Who is Thayer?
Possibly, Micah meant this fellow:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer
I don't want to speak for micah 7:9, but I would guess it's this Thayer (more in line with Laz's work):
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
It amazes me that this kind of work could come from the time period (mid 1800's). The amount of time they must have devoted to study. Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?
Pat
Quote from: Patinak on October 16, 2016, 09:48:57 AM
I don't want to speak for micah 7:9, but I would guess it's this Thayer (more in line with Laz's work):
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
It amazes me that this kind of work could come from the time period (mid 1800's). The amount of time they must have devoted to study. Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?
Pat
Yes it is amazing me also. "Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?
somebody asked me if Bible is difficult or harsh or something while back..the NT isnt in the original Greek...eg 'eternal hell' doesnt appear in it...the word mistranslated as 'eternal' in some translations is 'aionios' WHICH DOES NOT MEAN ETERNAL...also, the word 'hell' DOES NOT APPEAR in the NT.. still, I cant see Jesus wanting to live forever with people He regards as 'evil' but in a sense we are all 'evil' compared to God...in the sermon on the mount, Jesus referred to the crowd as 'evil' yet Jesus still said God was their Father......also, didn't Jesus say to forgive our enemies ?..didn't Jesus , who is God , forgive His enemies from the cross ? (He prayed to the Father for the ones who murdered Him )..if Jesus unilaterally forgave them, surely He'll forgive the rest..yet, looks like He'll say to some 'depart from me'...still, Jesus DID NOT say 'depart from me FOREVER...that fact alone opens the door to their ultimate reconciliation to Him. .altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'loss' tho they are ultimately saved......so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.
Indeed, there were a number of men who understood UR in the last two centuries. Thanks to God.
Thomas Thayers writing can also be found in the e-sword reference library entitled THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT.
Folks, I JUST finished the book, at 208 pages, and proofread twice. Whew! Just as Solomon wrote, "...of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2016, 04:35:24 AM
Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:
Thanks, and I meant to offer the membership copies (print or on flashdrive), but it must wait until I make sure my copyright is secure.
Awesome! We'll be able to spread the word about the book and post links to info on it on social media, or forums, and at home and church! :banana: :banana:
Don't get swindled concerning copyright.. My brother almost did with an invention.. Not knowing he just needs to apply to the state himself, if I'm remembering right, and not a website in between for a few hundred dollars ($800 :faint: ).. I'm sure there's a fee, but nothing like that!
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2016, 04:35:24 AM
Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:
:iagree: :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
New Chapter:
The Hades Chapter
Short chapter here, - this will be straightforward. I noticed in my chart from Tentmaker that "hades" was translated as "hell" consistently, except for one time. I wondered if it were a matter of context allowing for it, as it was for "sheol." So, I examined each instance, all eleven of them, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to Hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when "hades" was rendered as "grave," was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul's taunt of, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" follows after Hosea 13:14 – "O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction...". If either were rendered as "hell," it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if Hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction. The KJV translators must have been cunning to have made sure the OT and the NT agreed like this, so I'm glad the center-column references were innocently added later, for they were quite a tip-off to me.
The last two instances of "hades" to "hell" are in the Revelation, 20:13 & 14. "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – "hades," in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what the center-column reference suggests. Those cunning translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – Hell delivering up its dead, and Hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine. Using "grave" would have cleared up the problems, but judging from my "Hell Words" chart, the KJV translators seem to have been on a roll by this time.
:dsunny:
Last chapter, a big help to those unwilling/unable to slog through the whole book:
A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS
1. There is no mention of Hell in God's Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of "heaven and earth" paired together.
2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.
8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with "hell" (if present) properly replaced with "sheol" or "hades," as so often noted in the CCR.
9. For the Hebrews, "sheol," the hidden, covered and unknown place was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.
11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.
12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God's wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.
13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.
14. Hell violates God's Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.
15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it's cold as...Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you're dead, and on and on...
17. God's plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.
19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
20. God is both willing AND able to save all. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God's Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
22. If God's Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God's Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word "hell," except in imperfect translations.
24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 07, 2016, 07:45:27 PM
New Chapter:
The Hades Chapter
Short chapter here, - this will be straightforward. I noticed in my chart from Tentmaker that "hades" was translated as "hell" consistently, except for one time. I wondered if it were a matter of context allowing for it, as it was for "sheol." So, I examined each instance, all eleven of them, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to Hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when "hades" was rendered as "grave," was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul's taunt of, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" follows after Hosea 13:14 – "O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction...". If either were rendered as "hell," it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if Hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction. The KJV translators must have been cunning to have made sure the OT and the NT agreed like this, so I'm glad the center-column references were innocently added later, for they were quite a tip-off to me.
The last two instances of "hades" to "hell" are in the Revelation, 20:13 & 14. "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – "hades," in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what the center-column reference suggests. Those cunning translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – Hell delivering up its dead, and Hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine. Using "grave" would have cleared up the problems, but judging from my "Hell Words" chart, the KJV translators seem to have been on a roll by this time.
I wonder what word in the Revelation verses would have been used if Revelation were written in the Aramaic.. Or even, what word John used! Even if he wrote the book down in Greek/to a gentile audience?
Would the Aramaic be Sheol? Which is often today equated with "place of the dead" but i'm not always so sure that is the original understanding.
That's very interesting how the KJ has "..and hell delivered the "dead" that was in them.." (though death too I think is perceived different than originally? .."and then "hell is cast into the lake of fire"..
The NKJ uses "death and hades" which the Greek used is "Thanatos" and hades.. (Greek Interlinear)
And are cast into the lake of fire " / "Limne of pur" ..."limne, through the idea of nearness to shore, pond, lake, standing water.."
-- http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2020:13-14
Very interesting conclusion on the words as used by the KJ, that it contradicts the forever hell idea.. and also contradicts the forever hades idea?
:Peace2: :thumbsup:
Good conclusion and summary too.. and verses as a great resource..
Good points marie glen.
It makes sense that sheol(the grave) would give up the dead and be cast into the lake of fire. It doesnt make sense that "hell" would be cast into the lake of fire since in the ET paradigm hell is the lake of fire. Once the difference between "hell" and the lake of fire is established by the very question you raised, the nature of the lake of fire can be examined with some objectivity, and clearly, if hell is cast into it it is not hell.
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT :declare:
The book is finished! :banana: I converted the word file into a pdf file, and have burned it to CD-R. :flamebreath: It looks beautiful on my wife's PC. :thumbsup: There are still widows & orphans, those single lines at page tops and bottoms, but it's no biggie on a pdf file. :2c: I'll worry about that later when I go to print hardcopy. :footmouth: Anyway, I have about three-dozen more CD-R's I can burn, and I got a smoking-hot deal on them, so to thank everyone here for their helps and contributions, I am going to offer anyone who asks here in the Tent a CD-R/pdf copy of my book FOR FREE (Tentmaker members only). :gimmefive: There is one condition - just let me know how it looks, loads and functions on YOUR computer. :Chinscratch: This will be like beta testing. :icon_jokercolor: BTW, these CD-R's are high-quality Kodak Ultima, not brand-X, but when/if I run out, I will go to brand-X. :eek:
Please do not ask here. Send me an e-mail at lazshort@yahoo.com with your real name and a ship-to address. :declare:
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 13, 2016, 05:35:09 AM
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians
Hell is quickly in trouble, for Paul says, "...though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8) Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief? Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine? Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle? No, we have not. We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you." On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels. Good news? No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.
In 5:14, Paul reminds his readers of what Jesus had said before: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Surely, a God Who instructs us so follows the same principle – does He love us enough to refrain sending anyone to Hell? Given what we have so far, we an answer YES! We know this because He loved us enough to send His Son, Jesus the Christ. For His part, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, when He could have asked His Father to punish them, and I won't say by sending them to Hell, for it seems not to exist. Can you really think of a worse crime in the eyes of God than to murder His Son? No, I can't either...so the rest must be forgiven as well. It just makes sense, in a short epistle where Hell cannot be found.
I know this is an old thread, however I have recently run into a problem I thought I would share:
One thing I always used as a fall back in discussing the Hell doctrine, was the fact that Paul never talked about Hell in his letters. Paul is the one God used to bring "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" to the Gentiles.
I could always use the fact that Paul doesn't mention Hell in any version of the Bible, (not even the KJV), as a pretty sound argument.
Recently I made that statement in a small Bible discussion group, when I was challenged by one of the participants.
Sure enough, I have discovered that the New English Translation Bible (copyright 1996) has Paul using it in the following:
8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell! [Gal 1:8-9 NET]
Other versions translate anathema as 'cursed', 'accursed', or 'anathema' in these verses, but the NET chose to have Paul 'condemning to hell'.
I don't know why they decided to do this, but I am so disappointed in this translation by the NET Bible! :thumbdown:
Also, I noticed that the NLT (copyright 1996) has translated 'dynamis' (power; might) as 'power of hell' used by Paul in Romans 8:38:
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. [Rom 8:38 NLT]
There is no justification for using 'hell' in this verse. :thumbdown:
Both versions copyright 1996. What was going on in 1996?
Interesting. Hard to maneuver around those translations. I, for one, am still very ignorant when it comes to understanding the languages of the Bible and the various translations.
But, I am still working on it.
Thank you, Patinak.
D.
There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...or as I stated somewhere on the www recently, "ECT translator ==> ECT Bible." It's much like the "Garbage In - Garbage Out" idea from the computer world. That reminds me of the KJV II Bible which was alleged to have been generated by a supercomputer. The supercomputer was not specified, but it spat out "hell" over and over, simply based on what it was fed.
I did some rewriting of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" yesterday, renaming chapters (I like catchy chapter titles) and fleshing out some of the source citations. I found something very odd, tracking down some publication dates - Dante's Inferno appears about 1317. Add 350 years to that and you get the publication date for Paradise Lost. Another 350 years takes us to 2017 - when I began to send out (publish) my book. Spooky.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 08, 2017, 01:54:32 PM
There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...
:laugh:
Laz, I don't know if I ever publicly thanked you for sending me your book.
I'm about 2/3 through.
Thank you,
Pat
Quote from: Patinak on May 08, 2017, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 08, 2017, 01:54:32 PM
There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...
:laugh:
Laz, I don't know if I ever publicly thanked you for sending me your book.
I'm about 2/3 through.
Thank you,
Pat
Sir, you are more than welcome! :gimmefive:
Hello Lazarus! Do you have hard copies of your book? (I can't remember.) Holidays are coming and I wouldn't mind having at least two or three on hand. Can you post where or what to do to order them, if you have them on Lulu, somewhere else, or straight from you? [ :Chinscratch: they can be 'shared' too on social networks if you have them published on an online publishing site.. and with templates so easy to do (and as a bonus most are free up front :gthumbsup: ) What a great gift, to find out there is no hell!
It's a great book to give because even if the person doesn't take time to read it, it's been introduced to their psyche, and they can remember 'here was this guy, who went through every book of the Bible and found no real mention of a hell!'
:thumbsup:
...when I was reading Deuteronomy 33:22 - He has kindled a fire that shall consume the earth burning even to the lowest part (or depth of) sheh-ol.. I thought about how it's translated instead of depths of the grave or lower part of the earth, but as the lowest hell, meaning the idea is that hell is inside the earth, and the image that came to mind is everyone upon earth dancing, joyful, (with exquisite verdant peace) while at the center others writhed in agony forever with no release ever.. :doh:
Even Stephen King couldn't think of something thAt horrible! :faint: :laughing7:
Marie, I can send you copies, just send me an e-mail to lazshort@yahoo.com with a ship-to address and what you exactly want. I recently purchased a duplexing laser printer, so I'm hoping when I get it set up that I can print the book with half the paper as before. Paying me for the shipping is optional, but a nice thing to do.
Thank you... I will be doing... :thumbsup: when I figure out how many copies..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 08, 2017, 01:54:32 PM
There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...or as I stated somewhere on the www recently, "ECT translator ==> ECT Bible." It's much like the "Garbage In - Garbage Out" idea from the computer world. That reminds me of the KJV II Bible which was alleged to have been generated by a supercomputer. The supercomputer was not specified, but it spat out "hell" over and over, simply based on what it was fed.
I did some rewriting of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" yesterday, renaming chapters (I like catchy chapter titles) and fleshing out some of the source citations. I found something very odd, tracking down some publication dates - Dante's Inferno appears about 1317. Add 350 years to that and you get the publication date for Paradise Lost. Another 350 years takes us to 2017 - when I began to send out (publish) my book. Spooky.
:o ..that
is pretty weird! :gsmile:
Belated news...or is that "gnus"?
December 13th, the fuel pump on our car gave out, and the cost to repair it was $2600. :doh: Instead, the car got shoved (literally) in the garage, and we found a VERY nice Volvo on January 2nd - and for less than half the cost of repair to the other car. :banana: A fairly long time to be car-less, and in winter too. :eek: The Volvo, named "Sven," started off as if old and tired, but with some repair, maintenance and simple driving, it slowly came to life. :laughing7: We like it. :laughing7: That set me back as far as getting the book out to people. :footmouth:
Prior to THAT, last August or September, my iMac bit the dust, and I went with a second-hand PC which my Mac guru loaded with Ubuntu. Cost: $45. Everything went well until my trusty Dell laser printer blew its fuser, or so I was told. :doh: We have four printers in the house, and the only one showing ANY interest in printing is an Epson inkjet, and I got that to print only in yellow, lacking a black ink cartridge for now. :sigh: That may do for some jobs, but inkjet printing is just too expen$ive for a 200+ page book. :sigh: Therefore, I can't supply print versions of my book as I had promised - sorry! :sigh: I will be trying to see if my Ubuntu machine can burn the pdf version of the book to CD-R. Stay tuned! :declare:
Oh, one other thing: I discovered the other day, in another forum, that the title I chose for my book was already taken, by a book published in 2009. :dunno2: Well, rats! :dunno2: I'm going to need to come up with a new title, and am open to suggestions. :Chinscratch: I'm considering: "The Hell You Say...?". :winkgrin:
Another title idea: "Beating the Hell out of the KJV."
Has "Hell No!" been taken?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 20, 2018, 09:21:31 PM
Has "Hell No!" been taken?
I don't know, but it might infringe a bit on "Heaven, Yes -
Hell, No!"
Hi Laz,
To Hell with Hell
:dontknow:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 20, 2018, 09:53:19 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 20, 2018, 09:21:31 PM
Has "Hell No!" been taken?
I don't know, but it might infringe a bit on "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No!"
:doh:
How about "
Hell's Highway"?
more suggestions:
Time to Bury HELL
Adios, sayonara, goodbye HELL forever
:2c:
:thumbsup: amen.. time to hel hell.. Some good suggestions for titles! :Chinscratch:
I kind of like "The Hell You Say...?" Only thing coming to my mind is "hell's bells" :eyebrow:
p.s. - not a serious title, but hell's bells do put out a totaLLy wrong tone..
Quote from: marie glen on April 22, 2018, 06:37:52 PM
p.s. - not a serious title, but hell's bells do put out a totaLLy wrong tone..
Has a nice ring to it!
More suggestions:
Hellp Me!
A Hellish Place
The Death of Hell
Behind God's Gates
Hell's Bogeyman
Hell's Cross/Hell Crucified
Digging Deeper
God's Way
Burning Cold
Grieving For Hope/Hoping in Him
A Sparrow's Song
A Burden Lifted
A Day Unending
Cleaning Glass/Ripping the Veil
Good ideas - thanks to all! :dsunny:
Update, again:
Before I get ahead of myself, thanks to everyone who had a title suggestion! :friendstu: I'm leaning toward one of MusicLover123's - Digging Deeper - which I might subtitle as: Beating "Hell" out of the KJV. :punish: I'll mull it all over and decide. :Chinscratch:
Another Dell bites the dust - my trusty Dell keyboard, which I used for years, is now retired. It was getting "wonky," and I found a very nice Lenovo keyboard at a church rummage sale for a dollar. :dsunny: Shortly before that, I bought a used Brother laser printer for not much more than an inkjet cartridge for the Epson would have cost. It doesn't duplex, ah well... :sigh:
So...I'm back in the "samizdat" publishing business again. :banana: Open for requests again. :declare:
Good to hear bro Laz!!!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
sounding good so far , glad you are up and running again , God makes a way when there is no way :dsunny:
Hell and death the serpents lie : Giving God a bad rap /rep ... :2c:
God is Blasphemed by all the lies against the TRUTH .
Isaiah 52:5
"Now therefore, what do I have here," declares the LORD, "seeing that My people have been taken away without cause?" Again the LORD declares, "Those who rule over them howl, and My name is continually blasphemed all day long.
Ezekiel 20:27
"Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against Me.
Ezekiel 36:20
"When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
2 Peter 2:2
Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed. :sigh:
Thank you, rosered! :URWelcome:
Needs bumping.
Thank you, Chester - it does.
I have had it more and more on my mind, this: That God dwells in, and is, fire, flame, burning, brightness, lightning. I have begun what I think will be a new chapter in my book, and I have titled the chapter, "Godfire." It may be the overall book title as well. We shall see...
Wow! I love it! I've been coming across this a lot lately and I am most curious to see if others have been, or are being taught, what i believe the Lord has showed me. Focusing much on 2 Peter 3:10-13, which seems like two events to me.. one at the Lord's return and one at 'the end' when the Lord hands all things to the Father, and "all" things are made new..
But I hadn't thought of that - how handing all what's called kosmos to the Father, actually IS that making new by fire. Thank-you!! "Our God is a consuming fire.." Purity consumes impurity.. why He told the Israelites "stay back from the mountain".. It's why we are all salted with fire..
And His kingdom is coming! And a fire comes before Him! ..And after Him? 2 Peter 3:10-13 being bookend events? Of the two coming ages, "the thousand years" and "the judgment"? I have thought of man's splitting of the atom, as releasing a lake of fire.. And now I'm thinking splitting the very atoms of life.. the building blocks? I'm not a physicist! But I know it's a chain reaction.. I definitely believe it's prophesied! As earthly judgment. How do you describe such a thing in 95 A.D. or so? And it seems very logical to me that this story - God's truth proving documentary? - this wrong path, would end in a spiral of SELF-destructive smoke.. So to speak. And that the smoke of that lesson should rise forever and ever in every psyche, clearing up once and for all, all questions about good and evil. :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
Marie, did you know that most matter in the physical universe is plasma, a very energetic form of matter? Think FIRE.
Just wanted to throw in my two cents of a title, how about
"Digging Out of the Grave"
Since the grave/Sheol has evolved into the hell that is taught today, and now it is the reverse process, a resurrection from the imaginations of men that this world is buried in.
Thanks, Jugghead, but that title sounds a bit too "Night of the Living Dead" to me.
True, didn't think of it from that perspective
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 17, 2019, 02:00:18 PM
Marie, did you know that most matter in the physical universe is plasma, a very energetic form of matter? Think FIRE.
No I didn’t know that! Very interesting! ..I think since “in the beginning God”.. that first there was Him/only Him.. then I figure all things consist of Him, especially the life force, or spark/breath.
Then the atom as a building block, being split.. I figure simply must be in God’s Word, but seems to be overlooked.. But how would a mushroom cloud of fire be described in 95 A.D.? Also 2 Peter 3:10-13, as bookend events of the Lord’s long 2nd advent? The one at Jesus’ return - 2 Thess.7-8 - as being “full and complete punishment” according, I believe, to the greek of verse 8. Making consequences, wages (punishment) to be outcome(s) thus HIGHLY instructive. (The smoke of which learning shall rise up for ever and ever..?) To my mind, understanding just what it is God is doing, proves to the heart, UR/CU! ..that there’s only two paths.. Toward God, or away. One of which simply can never, ever work/succeed.. thus “all” learning and fully understanding good and evil /life and death (ending in nonlife/can only ever result in nonlife, if God never intervenes/redeems. Writing upon every heart and mind.. the utter futility and foolishness of going that wrong “way”.
...Like see the smoke of self destruction?! (nuclear winter, 1/3 less sun, red moon, & Joel’s smoky day.. “and out of the smoke and abyss of imperfection/“missing the mark”s potential/possibilities comes.. Rev.9). Otherwise, why the flood/pruning? If the end result of the wrong way/path/away from God, isn’t utter failure and self destruction?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 17, 2019, 02:00:18 PM
Marie, did you know that most matter in the physical universe is plasma, a very energetic form of matter? Think FIRE.
P.S. looking for something today, I came across this -
Quote
When Einstein published his famous equation E = mc2 it was realized for the first time that even the tiniest amount of matter was equivalent to an almost unbelievable amount of energy.
...to say nothing of "chain reaction"?
- Quote is from https://endtimestruth.com/world-war-iii/nuclear-war-great-tribulation/
This morning, I finished my word study "Godfire." It is now a chapter in "Heaven, Yes...Hell, No" and I may even make it the book's overall title. I'll need to see if the title has been used, and I suspect it has. I will post the new chapter in a separate thread, but not sure yet in which sub-forum.
OK - I put it in "Word Studies."
I've just about finished the book, and have been polishing and editing. At 240+ pages, it has become difficult to control - after a run-through, getting everything right, I go back to page one, and this or that is in disarray. I'm considering separating chapters into separate files for printing purposes, and even ditching the Ubuntu word program and going back to the Mac Mini and Word for Mac. A duplexing printer would be nice too...