Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

[Lazarus Short]

This is great. Seeing the verses translated as "grave/pit" in contrast with the ones translated "hell" is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that hell is a mistranslation at best, and a willful and conscious manipulation of scripture to fit a theological lie at worst (and honestly seeing the contrast makes me think the latter).

Good work Lazarus!

Thank you, GodIsLove!  I wondered when someone would notice the new chapter.  I have found in my investigation of Hell, that it gets more absurd the closer you look at it.  It gets really absurd when you consider "dying and going to Hell."  So you're dead.  But...conscious torment in Hell requires you to be alive, right?  But you're dead.  But you must be alive to suffer Hell.  But you're dead...  :doh:  There is no logical solution, unless you opt for the pagan Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and mainstream Christianity did just that. 

BTW, I like your user name, and it occurs to me that that is the sort of name used in the OT.  I wonder what "GodIsLove" would be in Hebrew...?

Before I quit, yes, I suspect the latter too:  willful/conscious manipulation of the Scripture.  The KJV in general seems to me to be theology-driven, rather than language-driven.  It's a Spirit of Religion.  :punish:

[Lazarus Short]

Who is Thayer?

Possibly, Micah meant this fellow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer

[Patinak]

I don't want to speak for micah 7:9, but I would guess it's this Thayer (more in line with Laz's work): 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

It amazes me that this kind of work could come from the time period (mid 1800's).  The amount of time they must have devoted to study.  Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?

Pat

[micah7:9]

I don't want to speak for micah 7:9, but I would guess it's this Thayer (more in line with Laz's work): 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

It amazes me that this kind of work could come from the time period (mid 1800's).  The amount of time they must have devoted to study.  Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?

Pat

Yes  it is amazing me also. "Imagine what these guys could have done if they had access to the www?

[darryl]

somebody asked me if Bible is difficult or harsh or something while back..the NT isnt in the original Greek...eg 'eternal hell' doesnt appear in it...the word mistranslated as 'eternal' in some translations is 'aionios' WHICH DOES NOT MEAN ETERNAL...also, the word 'hell' DOES NOT APPEAR in the NT.. still, I cant see Jesus wanting to live forever with people He regards as 'evil' but in a sense we are all 'evil' compared to God...in the sermon on the mount, Jesus referred to the crowd as 'evil' yet Jesus still said God was their Father......also, didn't Jesus say to forgive our enemies ?..didn't Jesus , who is God , forgive His enemies from the cross ? (He prayed to the Father for the ones who murdered Him )..if Jesus unilaterally forgave them, surely He'll forgive the rest..yet, looks like He'll say to some 'depart from me'...still, Jesus DID NOT say 'depart from me FOREVER...that fact alone opens the door to their ultimate reconciliation to Him. .altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'loss' tho they are ultimately saved......so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.

[joeteekay]

Indeed, there were a number of men who understood UR in the last two centuries. Thanks to God.
Thomas Thayers writing can also be found in the e-sword reference library entitled THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY  OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT.

[Lazarus Short]

Folks, I JUST finished the book, at 208 pages, and proofread twice.  Whew!  Just as Solomon wrote, "...of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

[joeteekay]

Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:

Thanks, and I meant to offer the membership copies (print or on flashdrive), but it must wait until I make sure my copyright is secure. 

[marie glen]

Awesome! We'll be able to spread the word about the book and post links to info on it on social media, or forums, and at home and church! :banana: :banana:

Don't get swindled concerning copyright.. My brother almost did with an invention.. Not knowing he just needs to apply to the state himself, if I'm remembering right, and not a website in between for a few hundred dollars ($800 :faint: ).. I'm sure there's a fee, but nothing like that! 

[micah7:9]

Congratulations Laz. Good work. I read snippets and hope to read much more. Thanks :thumbsup:

:iagree: :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

New Chapter:

The Hades Chapter

Short chapter here, - this will be straightforward.  I noticed in my chart from Tentmaker that "hades" was translated as "hell" consistently, except for one time.  I wondered if it were a matter of context allowing for it, as it was for "sheol."  So, I examined each instance, all eleven of them, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to Hell is not too much to swallow.  The one time when "hades" was rendered as "grave," was in I Corinthians 15:55.  Now context might have allowed, but Paul's taunt of, "O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?" follows after Hosea 13:14 – "O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction...".  If either were rendered as "hell," it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if Hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.  The KJV translators must have been cunning to have made sure the OT and the NT agreed like this, so I'm glad the center-column references were innocently added later, for they were quite a tip-off to me.

The last two instances of "hades" to "hell" are in the Revelation, 20:13 & 14.  "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death."  As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – "hades," in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what the center-column reference suggests.  Those cunning translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – Hell delivering up its dead, and Hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine.  Using "grave" would have cleared up the problems, but judging from my "Hell Words" chart, the KJV translators seem to have been on a roll by this time.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

Last chapter, a big help to those unwilling/unable to slog through the whole book:

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS

1.   There is no mention of Hell in God's Creation -  therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else.  See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of "heaven and earth" paired together.

2.   In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence.  See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3.   The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan.  See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4.   God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil.  See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5.   The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell.  See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6.   The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan.  See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7.   God warns of death, but not of Hell.  See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

8.   All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit.  See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with "hell" (if present) properly replaced with "sheol" or "hades," as so often noted in the CCR.

9.   For the Hebrews, "sheol," the hidden, covered and unknown place was the state, condition or place of the dead.  It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it).  See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10.   ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11.   The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it.  Punishments are delivered in the real world.  See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

12.   All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell.  This includes destruction, perishing, God's wrath and His cursings.  See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

13.   Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.

14.   Hell violates God's Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free.  See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

15.   The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous.  See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

16.   Hell, like Babylon, is confusion.  Hell is hot, but it's cold as...Hell.  Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark.  Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned.  To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you're dead, and on and on...

17.   God's plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell.  See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18.   Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee.  See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

19.   God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception.  See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

20.   God is both willing AND able to save all.  See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

21.   God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap.  Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation.  Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God's Fire.  See  Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

22.   If God's Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature.  It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire.  See Matthew 3:10-12.

23.   Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God's Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word "hell," except in imperfect translations.

24.   When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404.  With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell.  See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

[marie glen]

New Chapter:

The Hades Chapter

Short chapter here, - this will be straightforward.  I noticed in my chart from Tentmaker that "hades" was translated as "hell" consistently, except for one time.  I wondered if it were a matter of context allowing for it, as it was for "sheol."  So, I examined each instance, all eleven of them, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to Hell is not too much to swallow.  The one time when "hades" was rendered as "grave," was in I Corinthians 15:55.  Now context might have allowed, but Paul's taunt of, "O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?" follows after Hosea 13:14 – "O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction...".  If either were rendered as "hell," it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if Hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.  The KJV translators must have been cunning to have made sure the OT and the NT agreed like this, so I'm glad the center-column references were innocently added later, for they were quite a tip-off to me.

The last two instances of "hades" to "hell" are in the Revelation, 20:13 & 14.  "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death."  As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – "hades," in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what the center-column reference suggests.  Those cunning translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – Hell delivering up its dead, and Hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-Hell doctrine.  Using "grave" would have cleared up the problems, but judging from my "Hell Words" chart, the KJV translators seem to have been on a roll by this time.

I wonder what word in the Revelation verses would have been used if Revelation were written in the Aramaic.. Or even, what word John used! Even if he wrote the book down in Greek/to a gentile audience?

Would the Aramaic be Sheol? Which is often today equated with "place of the dead" but i'm not always so sure that is the original understanding.

That's very interesting how the KJ has "..and hell delivered the "dead" that was in them.." (though death too I think is perceived different than originally? .."and then "hell is cast into the lake of fire"..

The NKJ uses "death and hades" which the Greek used is "Thanatos" and hades.. (Greek Interlinear)

And are cast into the lake of fire " / "Limne of pur" ..."limne, through the idea of nearness to shore, pond, lake, standing water.."
-- http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2020:13-14

Very interesting conclusion on the words as used by the KJ, that it contradicts the forever hell idea.. and also contradicts the forever hades idea?
:Peace2: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Good conclusion and summary too.. and verses as a great resource..

[eaglesway]

Good points marie glen.

It makes sense that sheol(the grave) would give up the dead and be cast into the lake of fire. It doesnt make sense that "hell" would be cast into the lake of fire since in the ET paradigm hell is the lake of fire. Once the difference between "hell" and the lake of fire is established by the very question you raised, the nature of the lake of fire can be examined with some objectivity, and clearly, if hell is cast into it it is not hell.

[Lazarus Short]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT  :declare:

The book is finished!   :banana:  I converted the word file into a pdf file, and have burned it to CD-R.   :flamebreath: It looks beautiful on my wife's PC.   :thumbsup:  There are still widows & orphans, those single lines at page tops and bottoms, but it's no biggie on a pdf file.   :2c:  I'll worry about that later when I go to print hardcopy.   :footmouth:  Anyway, I have about three-dozen more CD-R's I can burn, and I got a smoking-hot deal on them, so to thank everyone here for their helps and contributions, I am going to offer anyone who asks here in the Tent a CD-R/pdf copy of my book FOR FREE (Tentmaker members only).   :gimmefive:  There is one condition - just let me know how it looks, loads and functions on YOUR computer.   :Chinscratch:  This will be like beta testing.   :icon_jokercolor:  BTW, these CD-R's are high-quality Kodak Ultima, not brand-X, but when/if I run out, I will go to brand-X.  :eek:

Please do not ask here.  Send me an e-mail at lazshort@yahoo.com with your real name and a ship-to address.  :declare:

:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Patinak]

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians

Hell is quickly in trouble, for Paul says, "...though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed [anathema]." (1:8)  Have we seen that Hell, as preached today, was a part of Old Testament belief?  Have we seen that any of the Gospels set forth any Hell doctrine?  Have we seen Hell promoted in any epistle?  No, we have not.  We must assume, then, that Paul is not thinking of Hell as part of "that which we have preached unto you."  On the other hand, since Paul never preached Hell, it just might be one of those other gospels.  Good news?  No, it would not have been good news at all, and still isn't.

In 5:14, Paul reminds his readers of what Jesus had said before:  "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."  Surely, a God Who instructs us so follows the same principle – does He love us enough to refrain sending anyone to Hell?  Given what we have so far, we an answer YES!  We know this because He loved us enough to send His Son, Jesus the Christ.  For His part, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, when He could have asked His Father to punish them, and I won't say by sending them to Hell, for it seems not to exist.  Can you really think of a worse crime in the eyes of God than to murder His Son?  No, I can't either...so the rest must be forgiven as well.  It just makes sense, in a short epistle where Hell cannot be found.

I know this is an old thread, however I have recently run into a problem I thought I would share:
One thing I always used as a fall back in discussing the Hell doctrine, was the fact that Paul never talked about Hell in his letters.  Paul is the one God used to bring "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" to the Gentiles. 
I could always use the fact that Paul doesn't mention Hell in any version of the Bible, (not even the KJV), as a pretty sound argument.
Recently I made that statement in a small Bible discussion group, when I was challenged by one of the participants.
Sure enough, I have discovered that the New English Translation Bible (copyright 1996) has Paul using it in the following:

8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell! [Gal 1:8-9 NET]

Other versions translate anathema as 'cursed', 'accursed', or 'anathema' in these verses, but the NET chose to have Paul 'condemning to hell'.

I don't know why they decided to do this, but I am so disappointed in this translation by the NET Bible! :thumbdown:


Also, I noticed that the NLT (copyright 1996) has translated 'dynamis' (power; might) as 'power of hell' used by Paul in Romans 8:38:

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. [Rom 8:38 NLT] 

There is no justification for using 'hell' in this verse.      :thumbdown:

Both versions copyright 1996.  What was going on in 1996?

[Dandelion]

Interesting. Hard to maneuver around those translations. I, for one, am still very ignorant when it comes to understanding the languages of the Bible and the various translations.

But, I am still working on it.

Thank you, Patinak.

D.

[Lazarus Short]

There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...or as I stated somewhere on the www recently, "ECT translator ==> ECT Bible."  It's much like the "Garbage In - Garbage Out" idea from the computer world.  That reminds me of the KJV II Bible which was alleged to have been generated by a supercomputer.  The supercomputer was not specified, but it spat out "hell" over and over, simply based on what it was fed.

I did some rewriting of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" yesterday, renaming chapters (I like catchy chapter titles) and fleshing out some of the source citations.  I found something very odd, tracking down some publication dates - Dante's Inferno appears about 1317.  Add 350 years to that and you get the publication date for Paradise Lost.  Another 350 years takes us to 2017 - when I began to send out (publish) my book.  Spooky.

[Patinak]

There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...

:laugh:

Laz, I don't know if I ever publicly thanked you for sending me your book.
I'm about 2/3 through. 
Thank you,
Pat

[Lazarus Short]

There must have been a Fundie in the woodpile...

:laugh:

Laz, I don't know if I ever publicly thanked you for sending me your book.
I'm about 2/3 through. 
Thank you,
Pat

Sir, you are more than welcome!  :gimmefive:

[marie glen]

Hello Lazarus! Do you have hard copies of your book? (I can't remember.) Holidays are coming and I wouldn't mind having at least two or three on hand. Can you post where or what to do to order them, if you have them on Lulu, somewhere else, or straight from you? [ :Chinscratch: they can be 'shared' too on social networks if you have them published on an online publishing site.. and with templates so easy to do (and as a bonus most are free up front :gthumbsup: ) What a great gift, to find out there is no hell!

It's a great book to give because even if the person doesn't take time to read it, it's been introduced to their psyche, and they can remember 'here was this guy, who went through every book of the Bible and found no real mention of a hell!'
:thumbsup:

...when I was reading Deuteronomy 33:22 - He has kindled a fire that shall consume the earth burning even to the lowest part (or depth of) sheh-ol.. I thought about how it's translated instead of depths of the grave or lower part of the earth, but as the lowest hell, meaning the idea is that hell is inside the earth, and the image that came to mind is everyone upon earth dancing, joyful, (with exquisite verdant peace) while at the center others writhed in agony forever with no release ever.. :doh:
Even Stephen King couldn't think of something thAt horrible! :faint: :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

Marie, I can send you copies, just send me an e-mail to lazshort@yahoo.com with a ship-to address and what you exactly want.  I recently purchased a duplexing laser printer, so I'm hoping when I get it set up that I can print the book with half the paper as before.  Paying me for the shipping is optional, but a nice thing to do.