Heaven, Yes...Hell, No

[Lazarus Short]

I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators.  I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome.  I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.

HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO

In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us.  Sometimes, it has surprises.

Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth.  Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated.  The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark.  We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them.  There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.  Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.

Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today:  she is my own flesh and blood.  I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall.  God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die.  God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed.  Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility?  Maybe death was the only risk they were taking...

Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.

Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.

Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died.  However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.

Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them.  All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed.  The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned.  Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.

Chapter 20
Abimelek  takes  Sarah  from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death.  Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk.  Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.

Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.

Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.

Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.

Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell.  He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact:  death, not Hell.

Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.

There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.

[micah7:9]

Laz, I fear most of what is called Christians today read the Bible from NT to OT and are tutored by theologians who have read in the same directions. I applaud your work, Thayer collected and wrote much of the same, but Bible Truth is not to be embraced when the legend and lore is more accepted and the imaginations of men make them feel good. I like the work! :dsunny:

[Seth]

Great idea.  :thumbsup:

Most Christians would already doubt that Biblical patriarchs, like Jacob/Joseph would go to hell. I think the most interesting evidence would concern the wicked. When you are done let me know, I'd like to post it on my site.

[rosered]

I am a simple  gal and love to learn
  You know I believe its awesome!!!    Great  work  Bro Dennis !  to God be the glory  for those willing to do the work


  :flowerred:   
I really dont think folks can help   believing in  the things they do,  God also gave some great imaginations   to mankind .
  And we would not see  great artist     and  books and  inventions    , such as the wheel   without  it .
I have learned  not to  see everything black and White .
  There is no such thing ! ,   just imaginations   thinking there is  :laughing7:
and this world is full of vanity   after all  , but this is where it   all stops   .Its a short  run at any stretch of the imaginations  :happytired:

[Tom]

I think it's clear that the result of sin is death not torture in fire forever.

"Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying." (Genesis 2:17)

"For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

The King James Version inconsistently translates the Hebrew "sheol" as "grave," "pit," "earth," and "hell," and the corresponding Greek "hades," literally "unseen," "tartaroo," literally "Tartarus," and "geenna," literally "Gehenna" as "hell." The word "hell" is an Old English word referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna." "And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

I think the first place in the Hebrew scriptures that fire is associated with the "unseen" is in the following verse, but it seems to be figurative language, and I think it is the first place the King James Version translates "sheol" as "hell."

"For a fire will be kindled by My anger, and it shall glow unto the unseen beneath; it shall devour the earth and its crop, and it shall set aflame the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22)

Here are a couple of other verses in the Hebrew scriptures associating fire with the "unseen," but they also seem to be figurative language.

"The unseen and the restrained womb, The earth when it is not satisfied with water, And fire that never says: Enough wealth!" (Proverbs 30:16)

"Place me like a seal upon your heart, Like a seal upon your arm, For love is strong as death, Its jealousy hard as the unseen, Its burning coals as burning coals of fire, The blaze of Yah." (Song of songs 8:6)

I don't think there are any verses in the Greek scriptures associating fire with the "unseen," and that is only seen in the King James Version and other popular versions due to forgery in the translation by intentionally confusing "Gehenna" with the "unseen."

Even Christ was in the "unseen" until his resurrection.

"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay. Thou makest known to me the paths of life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.' "Men! Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among us until this day. Being, then, inherently, a prophet, and having perceived that God swears to him with an oath, out of the fruit of his loin to seat One on his throne, perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27-31)

So I say the word "hell" should not be used in scripture translation anymore due to the confusion it has caused by the forgery perpetrated to confuse it with "Gehenna." It is an Old English word that is used to slander the Father and confuse and terrify believers. I say get rid of "hell" for good, and use the word "unseen" to translate the Greek "hades" which literally means "unperceived" or "unseen." I say to all my brothers and sisters who have not yet come to know the truth that you have nothing to fear from "hell" because all of us who will die will become "unseen" which is all that "hell" is. When somebody is dead, you don't see them anymore. They are "unseen." 

http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o

[Seth]

The modern translations had the good sense to remove it from the Old Testament. I wish they had the good sense to remove it from the New.

[bushy]

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

I've been wondering about this parable where the rich man was in hades and there was fire there. I would like a simple explanation (if there is one) that I could use for people arguing that there is a hell.

[Tom]

I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

[Seth]

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

I've been wondering about this parable where the rich man was in hades and there was fire there. I would like a simple explanation (if there is one) that I could use for people arguing that there is a hell.

I think it is about the transition of the kingdom from the Jews to Gentiles

http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.html

[bushy]

I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

Thanks Tom,
I managed to read through part 1. It definitely is not a simple answer to the rich man and Lazarus questions people have though it had some interesting points.

You said Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. To me that means since they had fallen for the pagan idea of torture in fire He went along with it in the story but they were the ones headed there. In the article he seems to say the story is factually correct because Jesus wouldn't make a story that wasn't accurate. But what about fire in hades, the unseen place of the dead where everyone goes when they die? Maybe part 2 has an answer for that but I don't think i'll read it now, it's over my head or at least my interest level.  :sigh:

[ed]

I think it is about the transition of the kingdom from the Jews to Gentiles

http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.html

That would fit with the theme of the Book Mathew quite well.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[Tom]

I think I forgot to mention that one, and that is one of the favorites of the hell fire and brimstone folks. Here's a good link for you, bro. Basically what it's all about is Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

Thanks Tom,
I managed to read through part 1. It definitely is not a simple answer to the rich man and Lazarus questions people have though it had some interesting points.

You said Jesus was using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. To me that means since they had fallen for the pagan idea of torture in fire He went along with it in the story but they were the ones headed there. In the article he seems to say the story is factually correct because Jesus wouldn't make a story that wasn't accurate. But what about fire in hades, the unseen place of the dead where everyone goes when they die? Maybe part 2 has an answer for that but I don't think i'll read it now, it's over my head or at least my interest level.  :sigh:

Right, part 2 is where that's explained.

[eaglesway]

While some UR believers are trying to negate the unpleasantness or duration of whatever the Gehenna/lake of fire experience will be, I don't think the scriptures allow for that. Jesus Himself spoke of people being cast into fire.

The theory that Jesus was using the Pharisees false pagan beliefs against them could be true, but there is no empirical evidence in the scriptures for that- at all. It requires the acceptance of an assumption and I would rather just inform those who oppose UR that whatever these fiery experiences are, LITERALLY OR METAPHORICALLY, they are not eternal, they are corrective, and demonstrate that by the scriptures.

[Tom]

I think "Gehenna" will be used for burning the corpses of executed criminals in the next eon.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

"Gehenna" is only associated with burning living souls if you believe living souls are alive when they're dead and "Gehenna" is "hell," but the only reason to think "Gehenna" is "hell" is if you ignore the forgery in the translation of scripture confusing "Gehenna" with "hell." (Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6)

I think "the lake of fire" is for burning the corpses of unbelievers who will be condemned to it after they are judged before the great white throne, and "the second death" defines "the lake of fire."

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

In other words, the mortals who will be cast into "the lake of fire" will be dead and not able to suffer any "torment" like those supernatural creatures who will, the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)

"It is important to perceive the setting of this story concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. It is not some sudden and disconnected literal revelation concerning the state of the dead, certainly not one which is contradictory to the law and the prophets!
At this juncture, the Lord was at the summit of His condemnation of the Pharisees for invalidating the word of God by their traditions. He avails Himself of some of those very teachings, adapting them for His own purpose, judging them out of their own mouths (cf Luke 19:22). When the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is read in the light of the rest of the Scriptures, and especially in the light of the context, we may readily perceive in it the traditions of the Pharisees, which were "high among men," yet "an abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15).
Following these words, the Lord declares, "The law and the prophets are unto John; thenceforth, the evangel of the kingdom of God is being brought, and everyone is violently forcing into it, and the violent are snatching it. Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fail. Everyone dismissing his wife and marrying her who has been dismissed from a husband, is committing adultery" (Luke 16:16-18; cf Matt.12:39).
These are the words which immediately precede those concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. "God's revelation was made by many modes, each appropriate to the time when it was used. 'The law and the prophets,' a title of the Hebrew Scriptures, which we now misname the 'Old Testament,' was His means of dealing with Israel until John the baptist, the greatest of all the prophets. He was the forerunner of a new method of divine revelation through the incarnation of Christ. The proclamation of the kingdom did not receive the response of contrite hearts, according to the law, but rather awakened a desire for its establishment by carnal means. At one time they would have taken Christ by force, because He had satisfied their hunger, and would have made Him king. This would have meant a revolt and war and bloodshed.
"Not only does He intimate that the Pharisees are to be dismissed from the stewardship, but this apparently unconnected statement [concerning adultery and divorce] suggests that the nation is to be divorced from Yahweh, and left desolate. This is a fitting link to lead us up to the final section of this five-fold parable, in which Israel's fate during her divorce is discussed" (Concordant Commentary, p.122).
The Talmud (Hebrew, talmudh, "instruction") is the traditional, uninspired, body of Jewish civil and religious laws (and related commentaries and discussion). In it "we have those very traditions gathered up which the Lord refers to through the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in His condemnation of the Pharisees. We can thus find out exactly what those popular traditions were.
" 'Paradise,' 'The carrying away by angels,' 'Abraham's bosom,' and so forth, were the popular expressions constantly used. Christ was not the first Who used these phrases, but He used the language of the Pharisees, turning it against themselves.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol.72, there is quoted from the Juchasin, fol.75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: 'This day he sits in Abraham's bosom,' i.e., the day he died.
"There is a difference here between the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds—the former says Rabbi Judah was 'carried by angels'; the latter says that he was 'placed in Abraham's bosom.'
"Here we have again the Pharisees' tradition as used against them by our Lord.
"(2) There was a story of a woman who had seen six of her sons slain (we have it also in 2 Macc. vii.). She heard the command given to kill the youngest (two-and-a-half years old), and running into the embraces of her little son, kissed him and said, Go thou, my son, to Abraham my father, and tell him: Thus saith thy mother, Do not thou boast, saying, I built an altar, and offered my son Isaac. For thy mother hath built seven altars, and offered seven sons in one day, etc. (Midrash Echah, fol.68. 1).
"(3) Another example may be given out of a host of others (Midrash on Ruth, fol.44, 2; and Midrash on Coheleth (Ecclesiastes) fol.86, 4): 'There are wicked men, that are coupled together in this world. But one of them repents before death; the other doth not; so the one is found standing in the assembly of the just, the other in the assembly of the wicked. The one seeth the other and saith, Woe! and Alas! there is accepting of persons in this thing: he and I robbed together, committed murder together; and now he stands in the congregation of the just, and I, in the congregation of the wicked. They answered him: O thou most foolish among mortals that are in the world! Thou wert abominable and cast forth for three days after thy death, and they did not lay thee in the grave; the worm was under thee, and the worm covered thee; which, when this companion of thine came to understand, he became a penitent. It was in thy power also to have repented, but thou didst not. He saith to them, let me go now, and become a penitent. But they say, O thou foolishest of men, dost thou not know, that this world in which thou art, is like the Sabbath, and the world out of which thou comest is like the evening of the Sabbath? If thou dost not provide something on the evening of the Sabbath, what wilt thou eat on the Sabbath day? Dost thou not know that the world out of which thou camest is like the land; and the world, in which thou now art, is like the sea? If a man make no provision on land for what he should eat at sea, what will he have to eat? He gnashed his teeth, and gnawed his own flesh.
"(4) We have examples also of the dead discoursing with one another; and also with those who are still alive (Berachoth, fol.18, 2—Treatise on Blessings). 'R. Samuel Bar Nachman saith, R. Jonathan saith, How doth it appear that the dead have any discourse among themselves? It appears from what is said (Deut.xxxiv. 4), And the Lord said unto him, This is the land, concerning which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac and Jacob, saying: What is the meaning of the word saying? The Holy Blessed God saith unto Moses, Go thou and say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the oath which I sware unto you, I have performed unto your children. Note that: Go thou and say to Abraham,' etc.
"Then follows a story of a certain pious man that went and lodged in a burying place, and heard two souls discoursing among themselves. 'The one said unto the other, Come, my companion, and let us wander about the world, and listen behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world. To which the other replied, O my companion, I cannot; for I am buried in a cane mat; but do thou go, and whatsoever thou hearest, do thou come and tell me,' etc. The story goes on to tell of the wandering of the soul and what he heard, etc.
"(5) There was a good man and a wicked man that died; as for the good man, 'he had no funeral rites solemnized'; but the wicked man had. Afterward, there was one who saw in his dream, the good man walking in gardens, and hard by pleasant springs; but the wicked man 'with his tongue trickling drop by drop, at the bank of a river, endeavouring to touch the water, but he could not.' (Chagigah, fol.77. Treatise on Exodus xxiii. 17).
"(6) As to 'the great gulf,' we read (Midrash [or Commentary] on Coheleth [Ecclesiastes], 103. 2), 'God hath set the one against the other (Ecc. vii. 14) that is Gehenna and Paradise. How far are they distant? A hand-breadth.' Jochanan saith, 'A wall is between.' But the Rabbis say 'They are so even with one another, that they may see out of one into the other.'
"The traditions set forth above were widely spread in many early Christian writings, showing how soon the corruption spread which led on to the Dark Ages and to all the worst errors of Romanism. The Apochryphal books (written in Greek, not in Hebrew, Cents.i. and ii. B.C.) contained the germ of this teaching. That is why the Apocrypha is valued by Traditionists, and is incorporated by the Church of Rome as an integral part of her Bible.
"The Apocrypha contains prayers for the dead; also 'the song of the three Children' (known in the Prayer Book as the Benedicite), in which 'the spirits and souls of the righteous' are called on to bless the Lord.
"The Te Deum, also, which does not date further back than the fifth century, likewise speaks of the Apostles and Prophets and Martyrs as praising God now." 4

From all this it is clear that the Lord was not giving a special revelation of His own as to the death state, but was taking the current, false teachings of the Pharisees, and using them against themselves.
The testimony of God's Word is clear concerning the state of the dead. In all cases, reference is not made merely to man's body, but to man himself. All such passages are words of faith, and are "beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act" (2 Tim.3:16,17). Since we have need of them, God has given them to us. Let us freely and unreservedly accept them, and intensely believe them. It is ideal to be like the apostle Paul, "believing all that is written, according to the law and the prophets" (Acts 24:14). There are many passages of Scripture which are concerned with the state of the dead. Here are a few examples:
"I will praise Yahweh in my life, I will make melody to my Elohim in my future. You must not trust in patrons, In a son of humanity in whom is no salvation. His spirit will fare forth, He will return to His ground, In that day all his reflections perish" (Psalm 146:2-4).
"The dead are not praising Yah, Nor any descenders to stillness" (Psa.115:17).
"Return, Yahweh! Liberate my soul! Save me on account of Your kindness! For in death there is no remembrance of You. In the unseen, who is acclaiming You?" (Psa.6:4,5).
"This evil is in all which is done under the sun, for one happening is for all. And, moreover, the heart of the sons of humanity is full of evil, and blustering is in their heart in their lives, and after them—to the dead! For anyone who is joined to all the living, forsooth, has trust, for a living cur, it is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, and for the dead there is no knowing aught" (Ecc.9:3-5a).
"All that your hand is finding to do, do it with your vigor, For no doing or devising, or knowledge, or wisdom, is in the unseen, where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).

James Coram"

http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o

[marie glen]

I've started a major project, a chapter-by-chapter survey of the Bible, demonstrating the lack of Hell-indicators.  I'm going to post as I go, and useful comments are welcome.  I've have gobs of writing classes, so be aware that I have a very thick skin when it comes to criticism.

HEAVEN, YES
HELL, NO

In most matters of great importance, it is best to go back to Genesis, and check what it has to say to us.  Sometimes, it has surprises.

Genesis, chapter 1
This records God making the Cosmos, the Heavens, and the Earth.  Those who believe in the Powers of
Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated.  The rest is superstition reinforced by dangerous animals lurking in the dark.  We see, if we read the text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy – God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the creation as a prey between them.  There is no mention of God making Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.  Maybe He made it later, but we'll see.

Chapter 2
God makes Adam and Eve, and an interesting detail is that Adam calls Eve "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh," instead of the way it would probably be said today:  she is my own flesh and blood.  I wonder if blood, as we know it today, existed before the Fall.  God tells them not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, lest they die.  God failed to mention the risk of them also going to Hell, that is, if Hell existed.  Should He not have brought up such a horrible possibility?  Maybe death was the only risk they were taking…

Chapter 3
The fruit is eaten, the fall happens, and the curse is placed on the serpent, Adam, Eve, in fact on the whole creation - still no mention of Hell or the risk of anybody going there, not even the serpent.

Chapter 4
God upbraids Cain for his anger, cautioning him that sin could take him if he does not master his emotions, but fails to mention the possibility of Hell if he does wrong.

Chapters 5 – 9
These chapters record the story of the Great Flood, in which millions of sinful people died.  However, there is no mention of anything happening to them except simple death.

Chapters 10 – 19
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, along with several smaller towns around them.  All the people in them, except Lot and two daughters, are killed.  The text is silent on their ultimate fate, and Hell is not mentioned.  Please note that what fell on those cities was literal fire, not Hellfire.

Chapter 20
Abimelek  takes  Sarah  from Abraham, and God then
threatens him with death.  Now, many people believe sinners go directly to Hell if their sins are not repented of, but God, always righteous and honest, fails to mention this risk.  Abimelek protests his innocence, and God makes things right, instructing Abimelek to give her back, which he does.

Chapters 21 – 38
Judah loses a couple of sons, killed by God for their wickedness - still no mention of them going to Hell.

Chapters 39 – 40
A baker gets hung, but there is no mention of him going to Hell.

Chapters 41 – 42
Jacob/Israel orders his sons to go to Egypt to buy grain, so that they would not die – again, there is no mention of any risk of them also going to Hell.

Chapters 43 – 45
At the very end of chapter 45, Jacob/Israel rejoices that Joseph was not dead, but fails to express thanks that he was not also in Hell.  He was also happy that he would see Joseph before he died, but it is just a simple fact:  death, not Hell.

Chapters 46 – 50
Jacob/Israel dies, and later Joseph, but there is no mention of Hell.

There is no mention of Hell, then, in the book of Genesis.

Say! that's awesome!! :banana: why wouldn't God (His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth) mention a hell as a destination if that's what it was/is..!

I think the Greek word "hades" throws a lot of people off as the Greek philosophy was a place (or dimension?) of the dead.. but really the "place of the dead" to my way of thinking, is still "the grave". (Just like the "lower part of the earth" where Jesus "descended to".)

"Tartarus" as "darkness" and "chains of darkness" where angels left their first place went to.. and are chained in their darkness as surely they cannot now reverse their course and make their self perfect, having become imperfect, how can imperfect make itself perfect? it can't so they are chained/ prisoners of their darkness.. chained unto judgment just as the people outside of Noah's ark while he was building it were locked into destruction (to whom Jesus preached via the Spirit while the ark was being prepared).. but as you, Lazarus, said, in all of Geneisis, no mention of a 'hell' (neither eternal or temporary). GReat study!

Old Testament prophets always, i believe, thought of fiery judgment as "fiery judgment" upon earth, to the nation, or even a person.. to go down in a blaze of fire, as they say.. Usually by being overrun by their enemies.. that's why i worry about "fiery judgment" for a nation or nations who once named God and Christ but turn away.. the last straw in Old Testament days was child and babe sacrifice (old religions were sex rites, lots of unwanted babes, sacred issue). Rev 20:4b, could come like a flood.. I hope. it. is. not. any. nearer. than. I have. previously. thought. (Because I haven't warned anyone.) ...All of Earth's woe's on record forever and ever.. the smoke (memory) of it rising up, especially for an age and an age.. but surely, never forgotten. Foundation lesson being? .."lest you die.." death as nonlife?)

..sorry for doing a sort of rant, I don't know what got into me..

marie glen aka glenda marie :smile:

[Seth]

"'Gehenna' is only associated with burning living souls if you believe living souls are alive when they're dead"

Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

I absolutely believe that people can be alive while they are dead.

[Tom]

I understand what you're saying, bro, but I don't believe they can be alive in the literal sense when they are literally dead, not metaphysically dead or figuratively dead, but really dead. I think believing folks are alive when they have died is the false doctrine of immortality of the soul, the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church, originating in the serpent's lie.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying."" (Genesis 3:4)

[marie glen]

"It is important to perceive the setting of this story concerning Lazarus and the Rich Man. It is not some sudden and disconnected literal revelation concerning the state of the dead, certainly not one which is contradictory to the law and the prophets!
At this juncture, the Lord was at the summit of His condemnation of the Pharisees for invalidating the word of God by their traditions.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol.72, there is quoted from the Juchasin, fol.75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: 'This day he sits in Abraham's bosom,' i.e., the day he died.
"There is a difference here between the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds—the former says Rabbi Judah was 'carried by angels'; the latter says that he was 'placed in Abraham's bosom.'...

http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o

That's very interesting! I've always thought of it as a parable, which of course it is, but it makes even more sense to me now! thanks! :smile: :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I understand what you're saying, bro, but I don't believe they can be alive in the literal sense when they are literally dead, not metaphysically dead or figuratively dead, but really dead. I think believing folks are alive when they have died is the false doctrine of immortality of the soul, the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church, originating in the serpent's lie.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying."" (Genesis 3:4)

I agree with that bolded part but I think that Gehenna being referential to literal death is an interpretation, but not a guarantee. There are scriptures which suggest that Gehenna and fire could represent the other type of death Jesus mentions in Luke 9:60.

[eaglesway]

Tom, if Gehenna refers solely to some future historical burning of soldiers outside Jerusalem, why did Jesus warn the people in general to beware of it.

Luke 12:4"And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after this there is nothing more for them to do." 5"But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one*."

22 But I say to you, that everyone who harbors kaas (anger) against his Ach [b'Moshiach], his chaver, shall be subject to mishpat (judgment); and whoever shall say to his Ach [b'Moshiach], Reyka! (Good for nothing!) will be subject to the Sanhedrin; and whoever shall say Shoteh! (Fool) shall be subject to Eish Gehinnom (Fire of Hell).

Mark 9:45New American Standard Bible (NASB)

45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [a- gehenna]hell, into the unquenchable fire(pyr to asbeston)


Surely there is at least metaphorical application here, but in my opinion, this speaks of olam fire or aionion pyr- not the actual historical future burning of soldiers. To confirm that from scripture in Matthew 18- another rendering of the same words of Christ

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.(pyr to aionion).

IMO, Matthew 18:8 and Mark 9:45 stand together as evidence that Jesus uses gehenna as a metaphor for aionion pyr.

[eaglesway]

P.S. Counting duplications that represents half of the usages of gehenna in the gospels.

[Tom]

I think "Gehenna" will be used for burning the corpses of those who will be executed for violating the law severely, not "soldiers," as you said. I think Christ warned folks about it because it was and will be considered a very dishonorable fate for Jews to not get a proper burial instead of having their corpses burned with the city garbage of Jerusalem. How can anybody suffer after they are dead? I believe you're either literally alive or literally dead. I think Gehenna is a real geographical location that will be used to keep real literal fire burning to protect against disease. I don't see anything metaphorical about it other than Christ's references to removing certain body parts used to sin to keep from having your whole dead body cast in there, but that's just my humble opinion. 

[marie glen]

   ..don't mean to butt in.. but here is another way of possibly seeing it.. just like eternal death is a possibility, except for Jesus' rescue, so too is a fiery gehenna burning time a possibility and potential.. but I think few stubborn holdouts will actually end up there.. there being an age and an age (millennium and judgment) before it.. To me the kindness of God will not require more of those in the role of not believing before death, than what He required from those chosen, through no praise or boast of their own, for the role of believing during this life, aka no harsher treatment.. :smile:

[marie glen]

1st advent = Jesus was - passover, unleavened/pure bread, firstfruit

long 2nd advent = trumpets, day/age of atonement, tabernacles
                                                           judgment
                                                           those of 2nd resurrection arrive DOA (day of atonement)
                                                                                                       ancient days was great day of
                                                                                                       weeping n wailing
                                                                                                                                        :smile: