The Problem of Evil

[jabcat]

I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it.  Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have;  our piece of understanding of a great big picture.

:thumbsup:

:2thumbs: back at'cha!   :wink2:

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

Nothing mythical about what I am proposing.   What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning.   I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.

If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,

I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.

:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....

How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?

[eaglesway]

Thoughts worth :2c: or there about.....

God is an absolute being, or maybe better, God is absolute being or even...God is THE absolute being.

God created beings for the purpose of fellowship and love.

He is "agape koinonea"..... I AM ThAT I AM...   God is love

We are created for "agape koinonea"

We are becoming absolute beings, but are not yet so.

We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God....1 Pet 1:1,2

For all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.... Ro 8:29

God created an environment - aion/kosmos... He built it upon certain foundations(archon) and elementary principles(stoicheon)....

He placed us in it and allowed us total freedom (for freedom Christ has set you free)....

Freedom to chose error and rebellion and separation, so that we might learn the beauty of truth and harmony.....

The key to the matrix, the seed  and fruit of the whole creation tree.... A LAMB SLAIN or, "agape koinoea"

That He might be the firstborn of many brothers, a kind of firstfruits of creation, embracing the absolute being, the agape koinonea of the I AM, that the whole creation might be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Where much is forgiven there is much love.... We could not know "much love" (agape koinonea) without knowing forgiveness.

We could not know forgiveness/love without knowing sin/mercy

God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choice

He knows when each one of us will choose union/grace/love, and each choice is a lesson and a transformation of understanding until the last such choice flows into "agape koinonea" /"I AM THAT I AM" as "all in all"

We are being taught the divine nature and eternal power of God dwells in love as we choose to let go and let God be God and cease trying to save our own lives, but enter into His rest through death, burial and resurrection.

This is about learning to be free.... not learning that God made all our choices for us.... but learning the consequences and rewards of freedom.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, I think it's pretty apparent what both of your understandings and opinions are.  That's fine, talking about it gives us at least a chance to learn something from each other.  I figure you're both probably right about some of it, and if I know anything at all, probably still have some things to learn about it.  Hopefully we can all recognize that's what we have;  our piece of understanding of a great big picture.

I know I still have things to learn about this.  I'm just not 100% completely settled on every minute detail of this subject, but one thing I think I know is; the answers won't be found inside of me, in my own thought processes and reasoning capacity;  especially with the carnal aspects of my mind. 

I will continue to contemplate the questions and thoughts I've presented, but hopefully mostly will continue to search the scriptures and ask God for wisdom and to trust Him more and more;  otherwise I may find myself once again arguing against God Himself. 

:handshake:

I am open to change, I used to rally to keep people out of eternal hell now I rally to glorify the God who never invented it to begin with.  I just do not concede to change because someone quotes a bible verse or makes a forum post.  ;)

[jabcat]

I'll be careful in response, and try to tiptoe "the line" without crossing over it.

I agree with this (even including the wording) somewhere between 95-99% of it  :thumbsup:.  I agree we are required to make choices, we learn from the consequences.

I do believe (and I also gather that's it's implied in your post) that it's God that sets us within certain parameters/boundaries, within which we must decide.

And in some way (currently to some degree beyond my grasp of understanding) the scriptures are then fulfilled, including "man plans His way, but God directs His steps". 

Edit;   Being an earthly father ("how much more your Heavenly Father") I allowed my children to make decisions - in fact, I required it.  But believe me, as was possible, I set conditions, boundaries, gave certain options from which they could choose.  So they learned, grew, and in a sense they planned their way, but I directed their steps.   :2c: 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'll be careful in response, and try to tiptoe "the line" without crossing over it.

I agree with this (even including the wording) somewhere between 95-99% of it  :thumbsup:.  I agree we are required to make choices, we learn from the consequences.

I do believe (and I also gather that's it's implied in your post) that it's God that sets us within certain parameters/boundaries, within which we must decide.

And in some way (currently to some degree beyond my grasp of understanding) the scriptures are then fulfilled, including "man plans His way, but God directs His steps".

At some point I am also cool with agreeing to general concepts so that we don't have to split hairs and always disagree to the minute detail.  (don't faint, lol)    I agree with what you wrote there for the most part, very little of it would I need to make issue with.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

 :nod:   

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

Nothing mythical about what I am proposing.   What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning.   I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.

If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,

I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.

:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....

How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?

:cloud9: That's the whole point......He subjected us to it, in whatever form that takes expression thru. Since He is the origin of all things, as Legoman said, He is either indirectly OR directly the "cause" of it.

The word of scripture being translated "cutting down", is only used twice AS "cutting down" and it's in reference to literal trees. I CAN see that spiritually speaking, and in application towards the lowering of His creation, ie. being cut down from our condition before the foundation of the world. It would fit with the fact the tree of life was "cut down" also when He poured Himself into His creation. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

Nothing mythical about what I am proposing.   What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning.   I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.

If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,

I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.

:cloud9: Let's ask Judas the disciple about that.......when He sent them out in two's, Judas would have been among them = believer that came back saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us in Your name."

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop *Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He prophesied it, He ordered it above , and He used Satan the tool that entered into Peter to fulfill it. Since God is no respector of persons, just WHO do you THINK it is that reproves us with our own wickedness? Blessings.....

How is it our own wickedness if we are not wicked unless God makes us wicked?

:cloud9: That's the whole point......He subjected us to it, in whatever form that takes expression thru. Since He is the origin of all things, as Legoman said, He is either indirectly OR directly the "cause" of it.

The scripture being used about "cutting down" evil, is only used twice and it's in reference to literal trees. I CAN see that spiritually speaking, and in application towards the lowering of His creation, ie. being cut down from our condition before the foundation of the world. It would fit with the fact the tree of life was "cut down" also when He poured Himself into His creation. My  :2c: Blessings....

I understand.  I agree that nothing exists without God.  But what I am believing is that there is a certain nature of things that defines that so there is an understanding of how God is pure righteousness despite that.  Whatever God does is good does not address what it is that he does do that causes that righteousness to be absolute. 

The calvinist who says God is good for creating humans for the sole purpose of burning in hell forever is then correct in saying that since God does it, it is good.  The arguments against eternal hell not withstanding because despite the arguments, if all things are possible with God, then indeed, it is possible.

However, many of us have determined that a God who creates an eternal hell for his creation is impossible. 

So I hope at least with that illustration you can see why I continue to stay on the journey of discovering what God will and won't do because I know it is possible to know.

I believe this because for close to 40 years I remained locked in a religious Fog that was simply men creating an evil image of God and saying because God does it we cannot question it and must accept this as good.

When I questioned it, look what I found.  :)   Hope you understand.

[shawn]

Thoughts worth :2c: or there about.....

God is an absolute being, or maybe better, God is absolute being or even...God is THE absolute being.

God created beings for the purpose of fellowship and love.

He is "agape koinonea"..... I AM ThAT I AM...   God is love

We are created for "agape koinonea"

We are becoming absolute beings, but are not yet so.

We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God....1 Pet 1:1,2

For all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.... Ro 8:29

God created an environment - aion/kosmos... He built it upon certain foundations(archon) and elementary principles(stoicheon)....

He placed us in it and allowed us total freedom (for freedom Christ has set you free)....

Freedom to chose error and rebellion and separation, so that we might learn the beauty of truth and harmony.....

The key to the matrix, the seed  and fruit of the whole creation tree.... A LAMB SLAIN or, "agape koinoea"

That He might be the firstborn of many brothers, a kind of firstfruits of creation, embracing the absolute being, the agape koinonea of the I AM, that the whole creation might be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Where much is forgiven there is much love.... We could not know "much love" (agape koinonea) without knowing forgiveness.

We could not know forgiveness/love without knowing sin/mercy

God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choice

He knows when each one of us will choose union/grace/love, and each choice is a lesson and a transformation of understanding until the last such choice flows into "agape koinonea" /"I AM THAT I AM" as "all in all"

We are being taught the divine nature and eternal power of God dwells in love as we choose to let go and let God be God and cease trying to save our own lives, but enter into His rest through death, burial and resurrection.

This is about learning to be free.... not learning that God made all our choices for us.... but learning the consequences and rewards of freedom.

Well stated.  I know this is a minor point and I think you would agree but had some issue with this sentence...

God knew we would choose evil/sin/rebellion/separation, because a choice is a choice

God knew we would would "choose" sin because we are born into slavery.  I'm not sure there is any choice but to sin if we are indeed slaves to sin.  Only after regeneration, do we have an awakening, the blinders come off and we are truly given a choice.  Some of us after a taste and see that God is indeed good "choose" to serve.  But, all of this is by grace and only because he removes our blinders.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Paul.....for brevity......I do understand questioning......I question Him about everything.  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.

Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.

Then what is perfect?  Job was considered perfect before Satan was let loose on him.   Now he is more perfect?[/quote]Good point. Only Jesus was perfect.
I don't know if Job became more perfect.
I think Job was a real follower of God in times of prosperity. With the test he also learned to follow in bad times  :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

EDITED, if there is something in it, tell me first, that way I can restate it in a better way.

Ok, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.

Perhaps.  Certainly we should not translate it in the way we think of the word "evil" today.  Much like Hell, Evil is an English word we've now taken out of context as English evolved.

I agree with that in general; but in this case it gives some problems. You suggested the Isa passage doesn't mean God created (used) evil but calamity.
But God says He hates evil calamity. He hates His own ways?
Let's take another apporoach. Do you have one or more verses that in your opinion really mean evil?

So because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)

But not in the way we would like to imply.  A general can use the blunders, the weaknesses of his enemies to allow for one of his battalions to take and stand on more solid ground.  But he did not defect to the enemy's side, nor party up with them.

So Father has to wait for enemy weakness? As someone mentioned God told Satan to come to His throne. It was not satan who took the initiative to test Job.
Another thing occured to me.... If evil can not enter heaven and satan was a murderer from the beginning how could he be a frequent visitor of heaven?
Not just heaven but right before Father.

So God created stain remover = satan.

Hence my statement; Hitler was once an innocent baby.  Satan wasn't formed in the eons before The Beginning as a wicked sinner, unless evil was in the heart of God to be expressed in one of his creations - who he will decide to blame for His own wicked nature.

Satan was a murderer from teh beginning. There was no thruth in him.
If beginning is the birth of satan then you statement is clearly false. So it must mean beginning of the creation of earth???

No. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.

God however, is God who is by default supposed to be absolutely sinless and perfect.
If God created evil, it is out of his own heart - it doesn't matter what his intent is, even if/though his intent is better than the original creation.
If God created it, it came out of his heart.  If God created sin, it came abundantly out of his essence.  If God's essence contains wickendess, then he is not a Holy God.

All fine but imo it's simple.
a] God created evil/calamity as part of a plan.
b] God created imperfection because that was the best He could do.
c] He created imperfection because that way He knew evil would emerge.

The Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
Your potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.

Not at all, I only take away the idea that God is the author of lies, and iniquity, which makes God not God at all, let alone sovereign or in control.

That's not my point.
If God wanted to create evil His plan succeeded. If He in no way planned ever to have evil on earth He failed. A lot of His pots are leaking.

He didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?

See an earlier post of mine on Judgement.  Common sin, gets common judgement.  The hypothetical example I gave;
A man who shoplifts gets an earthquake in his spirit.
If every man in a town is stealing from each other constantly - their town gets an earthquake wholesale.

Ok they deserverd it. Fine. But still He used very destructive ways to punish. He used fire to burn. That was/is my point.

Tell that to the judge that sentenced me to jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.

Would you rather God did it, and be an evil God just proving his sovereignty so you can feel better?

I think that answer only makes you feel better....
God removed the light. And because of that there is sin. Action Reaction.

Lots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom

Judgement is a righteous act.  Causing a man to sin is not, inventing methods of sin is not, inventing sin is not.

Removing light from the world IS forcing sin into the world.

The question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercy on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.

The sinful state is not out of God himself, unless our God is the Omni-devil.

Sinful state is default anyplace without light.

Light that's blocked out by veils. Veils placed by God......

imo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.

God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.

You can't cause sin, unless you're a sinner.  But if I might be so bold, I think one of the biggest mistakes mankind has ever made, has been blaming God for their own fault so that they could pass on the responsibility, or even the guilt of it onto another; "I didn't do it, God made me do it."

And the biggest mistake is assuming God lost control and now is busy with some patchwork...

Again you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.

You confuse children running away from God to be with themselves, with God withdrawing himself.

Children full of light don't run away. Running away is lack of light. Action/reaction.

I've read the other part of your post. I can summarize my asnwer to those points, and this whole post, or even discussion with you that you seem to overlook cause and event.

Light withdrawn by God -> Room for evil -> Evil grows and grows -> The world we are in right now.

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings,
I like the new graphic, there's something peaceful about it, thanks.

I think it are the names in the picture David :winkgrin:
I just decided to make some new pictures for 'every' event.
This one is my representation of fall/autumn.
Hanukkah is next..

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: That's exactly what was communicated to me. He took me up in spirit into the heavens where the stars are. I was seeing in the Spirit. I saw what looked like silver-ish round orbs of light with faces on them. I heard (also by the Spirit, they didn't really "speak") them talking about about what they were going to do here. I felt the joy of the Lord hit me, just as they had it also, describing their forthcoming lives. They knew about relationships with one another, and had joy even over the "bad" things. They knew it was to perfect unconditional love in one another, and they were excited about it.

I was shocked because I had NO doctrine in place for this experience and I had to seek His face in the Word to "see" this after it was over. Blessings.....

That all? :winkgrin:
The good/neutral NDEs I've read most often are short and vague.
The hell stuff takes a whole book to write down......

[thinktank]

I find the world is just to barbaric to be, as nothing more than God training us. Surely he could have created a school of training that did not have such barbarity. Given Gods nature is love I don't see why he had to subject us to monstrous evils in order to develop character in us. In fact one can develop character by simply living with people that annoy one self, or to climb mount everest. I don't see why we have to have kids being butchered and familles mowed down by collisions, in order to grow in love and character, that's one reason I content we battle evil, that is not Gods will for the earth.

[WhiteWings]

I find the world is just to barbaric to be, as nothing more than God training us. Surely he could have created a school of training that did not have such barbarity. Given Gods nature is love I don't see why he had to subject us to monstrous evils in order to develop character in us. In fact one can develop character by simply living with people that annoy one self, or to climb mount everest. I don't see why we have to have kids being butchered and familles mowed down by collisions, in order to grow in love and character, that's one reason I content we battle evil, that is not Gods will for the earth.

I agree it's problematic.
But then just read how Jesus met His end.
Then you can ask a similar question: Wasn't there another way with no/much less pain for Jesus?

[eaglesway]

I think training may be to lightweight a word, altho training is part of it. Transforming, as a seed is transformed ;shoot, stalk, then the ear.....translating from darkness to light.....being conformed to the image of the Son, growing up in all things into the Head....maybe those words all together reflect a glimpse of His purpose.

For all those whom He foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ WW.....I like it too, was going to comment on it but got busy......can't wait to see the next one  :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

Whitewings, I do not believe it is possible at this time for us to come to any sort of understanding.  Our views theologically, and especially concerning God's nature are simply far too different, and I believe you are misunderstanding many of my major points due to that - or perhaps I am misunderstanding yours.

As it stands, I've already explained myself as fully as I at the moment can, and there is nothing left to be gained by continuing on this part of the road.

Walk with peace-

[willieH]

Not a single Christian I know says that Satan is omnipresent.

Ask ONE of those Christians, WHERE "satan", ...IS...  :laughing7:  Matter of fact... anyone who is a "believer" in "satan" as a being [ :sigh: ] ... please feel free to answer this question... Where is "satan"?  Is "he" on the subway in New York?  On Obama's desk?  In the new song by Beyonce?  On "Survivor" with the castaways, uncovering the hidden immunity idol?  On a plane to Bankok? In the mind of the publishers of Playboy?  At the north pole, bothering the other myth of Christianity?  ...Please.

I certainly do not believe he is omnipresent.

Then how is it that "satan" ...tempts... men, Lefein?  Where exactly does "he" hang out, Lefein... what is "his" location? Is "he" just assigned to certain men, or just choose certain of them?  If so, whom and on what basis?   :dontknow:

Or is "he" just a director" who shouts orders to other "demons"?   :director: ...if so, where is Biblical proof of any of this poppycock? 

The TRUTH is that "he" is a myth which is created by religion...

The TRUTH is, that the myriads of less than SURFACE and UNSPIRITUAL atheists in the world, shall deduce of "him" the very same as do you of "satan" as they read the Bible you read...  :icon_farao:   :sigh:  Being just as deceived of "satan" as to WHAT "satan" ...IS...

The TRUTH is that "satan"... is the principality of ADVERSITY, necessary to display its resultant part [evil} in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which KNOWLEDGE is present EVERYWHERE, with the one which IS EVERYWHERE --- YHVH  God.

In the book of JOB... "satan" was WITH and AMONGST, the Sons of GOD... as well as PRESENT before YHVH... you do the math...  :JCThink: :Book:

willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

WillieH, When you become the only begotten son of God, then you can start telling me what is truth and myth.  When you have gained all that superior wisdom over the rest of God's beloved children, his saints - his warriors who have fought the foe and his entourage, and proven wrong all those who have cast out devils before you and I were ever born then you can call them myths of Christianity.  When you have sat on the mountain in the wilderness and looked on as Jesus our Lord contested with the very Satan himself, when you have stood on the roof of the temple as the Devil tried to have our Lord cast himself down to prove his sonship, then you can tell me he is not a being.  When you have shaken out the fullness of God's truth, and put it under your feet and have the authority to call yourself the Lord of the Word, and all of its truths and interpretations, then you can start implying that you, and you alone have the right knowledge of the The Letter to which you so fervently bow down.

You say that Satan as a being is a myth - to this you have made a strange interpretation of the scriptures you say you rely solely upon; voiding it of the plain, common reading - replacing it with your own esoteric idea.  A tradition of man that you have made with your own two hands, and set up as an idol before the Lord your God; an abomination in his sanctuary, you have defiled his temple, the Temple of the Holy Spirit your heart with bitter incense, and praise with lips.

This perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;

You mock your brothers, you mock your fellow Christians, you call them the builders of myth, you degrade their worship, you put them beneath you with your words, your attitude, you forget that they are your brothers, you forget first and foremost that they too are the sons and daughters of the Living God -- you will cease mocking them, or you will fall under your own heavy mantle of your own man-made religion; a religion of self-righteous judgements passed on to your brethren who have not yet come to the knowledge of truths you may, or may not have received.

You insist, and emphasise the veil on others - you ignore your own.  You point out their veil, you do not point out their progress.  You point to their blind eyes, you do not acknowledge their heart that sees the Father with eyes of faith as far as their loving eyes can carry their gaze up to Heaven.

Behold - they have great faith, your brothers who you laugh at.  They love God their Father even despite the untruth of Hell.  They are not the best of children, but they try their best to live out the word as God reveals it to them.  You sit on your heap of scrip and letter to laugh at them and call their faith the faith of myths.

This will cease.  Thus saith the Lord.

If you love your Father, you will end your scorn, and your laughter, and your mockery, and your constant pointing out of veils, blindness, and infirmity, weakness in your brothers whilst carrying yourself high as the knower of Truth.  If you did indeed know the Father, the Truth - you'd act with greater humility.  You'd act with greater wisdom.  You'd express your views with less aggression - The Lord your God expects the practice of the fruits that you have learned in your years of study, and your harvest here has shown poor expression towards your brethren who are still in the outer court of the temple.  Your brothers, your sisters, your fellow sheep in the fold; As the Lord said;

"Feed my sheep"

The Good Shepherd is aware of weakness, and blindness, and veils - even your own.  Did the Lord God not say in the Word that He is strong in our weaknesses?  Is he not shining through, tearing down the veils, and giving sight to the blind?  Who are you then to go against the Lord's work and point out in every brother you meet what the Lord is tearing down, and what the Lord is giving light upon?  Do you, blood bought son of God not know that what the Lord calls clean, you should not call unclean?  That what the Lord calls clean, you shall call clean?  Why then do you constantly call blind what the Lord has given sight?  Why do you call veiled what the Lord has already revealed?

Why in your rebellion do you declare upon your brothers the opposite of what the Lord has said of them?  Why callest thou Gideon a coward against the Lord thy God who hath said of him; 'Thou mighty man of valour!'?

Your fruit has been weighed, and it is found wanting.  Repent of this contempt for your family, this thing in you that you would even deny - a veiling to your own faults, for you are not sinless in this world, neither are you faultless, for you likewise are under Grace, My Grace, and you have not yet seen the mirror with the great clarity that my own Son beholds.  You see still through the glass darkly, and have not the authority to call myths what you do not know the full Truth concerning.

Where is Satan your Adversary?  Going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour, the straggler in the flock as the Shepherd gathers his sheep into the fold.  Be wary lest you be caught within the jaws.

Where is Satan your Adversary?  Satan who is Adversary, goes to and fro the Earth to drive men to sin, and his work is ceaseless for he has little time left to cause mischief in the world I have made.  Know this, I will put him in the abyss, and I will not be mocked.

I will not be mocked, neither will the members of my body!  Offend not my little ones, it would be better for that person to tie a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the sea.  Even the sea shall give up her dead, and everyone will give an account for every idle word, every vain speech, and every worthless, self-adoring, ambitious word they have uttered.  Even you will give an account to me, for I am a righteous judge, and I will judge the world rightly!

Do as I have commanded - Love each other, as I have loved you!  I am the Lord, and I do not mock.  I am the Lord, I give sight to the blind.  I am the Lord, I tore the veil of the temple!  I AM the TRUTH, the LIFE, and I ALONE am the WAY.

I alone am almighty, I alone am in all places, I alone am the Lord of the ages, and I alone am God.  I do not mock, I am LOVE.

[micah7:9]

Omnipresent. Its a truth about the adversary that we must come to KNOW.

Also if the adversary is a being, where and when was that being created. And you cant use Isa. 45:7

[Lefein]

When was Gabriel created?

[Beloved Servant]

This perhaps is a prophecy for you, I am moved to write it;

You mock your brothers, you mock your fellow Christians, you call them the builders of myth, you degrade their worship, you put them beneath you with your words, your attitude, you forget that they are your brothers, you forget first and foremost that they too are the sons and daughters of the Living God -- you will cease mocking them, or you will fall under your own heavy mantle of your own man-made religion; a religion of self-righteous judgements passed on to your brethren who have not yet come to the knowledge of truths you may, or may not have received.

You insist, and emphasise the veil on others - you ignore your own.  You point out their veil, you do not point out their progress.  You point to their blind eyes, you do not acknowledge their heart that sees the Father with eyes of faith as far as their loving eyes can carry their gaze up to Heaven.

Behold - they have great faith, your brothers who you laugh at.  They love God their Father even despite the untruth of Hell.  They are not the best of children, but they try their best to live out the word as God reveals it to them.  You sit on your heap of scrip and letter to laugh at them and call their faith the faith of myths.

This will cease.  Thus saith the Lord.

If you love your Father, you will end your scorn, and your laughter, and your mockery, and your constant pointing out of veils, blindness, and infirmity, weakness in your brothers whilst carrying yourself high as the knower of Truth.  If you did indeed know the Father, the Truth - you'd act with greater humility.  You'd act with greater wisdom.  You'd express your views with less aggression - The Lord your God expects the practice of the fruits that you have learned in your years of study, and your harvest here has shown poor expression towards your brethren who are still in the outer court of the temple.  Your brothers, your sisters, your fellow sheep in the fold; As the Lord said;

"Feed my sheep"

The Good Shepherd is aware of weakness, and blindness, and veils - even your own.  Did the Lord God not say in the Word that He is strong in our weaknesses?  Is he not shining through, tearing down the veils, and giving sight to the blind?  Who are you then to go against the Lord's work and point out in every brother you meet what the Lord is tearing down, and what the Lord is giving light upon?  Do you, blood bought son of God not know that what the Lord calls clean, you should not call unclean?  That what the Lord calls clean, you shall call clean?  Why then do you constantly call blind what the Lord has given sight?  Why do you call veiled what the Lord has already revealed?

Why in your rebellion do you declare upon your brothers the opposite of what the Lord has said of them?  Why callest thou Gideon a coward against the Lord thy God who hath said of him; 'Thou mighty man of valour!'?

Your fruit has been weighed, and it is found wanting.  Repent of this contempt for your family, this thing in you that you would even deny - a veiling to your own faults, for you are not sinless in this world, neither are you faultless, for you likewise are under Grace, My Grace, and you have not yet seen the mirror with the great clarity that my own Son beholds.  You see still through the glass darkly, and have not the authority to call myths what you do not know the full Truth concerning.

Where is Satan your Adversary?  Going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour, the straggler in the flock as the Shepherd gathers his sheep into the fold.  Be wary lest you be caught within the jaws.

Where is Satan your Adversary?  Satan who is Adversary, goes to and fro the Earth to drive men to sin, and his work is ceaseless for he has little time left to cause mischief in the world I have made.  Know this, I will put him in the abyss, and I will not be mocked.

I will not be mocked, neither will the members of my body!  Offend not my little ones, it would be better for that person to tie a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the sea.  Even the sea shall give up her dead, and everyone will give an account for every idle word, every vain speech, and every worthless, self-adoring, ambitious word they have uttered.  Even you will give an account to me, for I am a righteous judge, and I will judge the world rightly!

Do as I have commanded - Love each other, as I have loved you!  I am the Lord, and I do not mock.  I am the Lord, I give sight to the blind.  I am the Lord, I tore the veil of the temple!  I AM the TRUTH, the LIFE, and I ALONE am the WAY.

I alone am almighty, I alone am in all places, I alone am the Lord of the ages, and I alone am God.  I do not mock, I am LOVE.

Parhaps, Lefein, God was speaking to you.