The Problem of Evil

[WhiteWings]

He intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty individual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.

And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.

Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.

Agreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of  a perfect plan.

God did not create imperfection no more than he created perfection, Perfection simply 'is', because God is Perfection, and he himself was not created.

So you agree sickness nad all sorts of negativity are part of a perfect plan.

Illness is a crappy design of the immume system.

But you'll have a crappy god instead?

That's your crappy conclusion.

Then why he locks up all in disobedience?

So we'll never want to enter into our self-made prison ever again.  God wanting to give his best, knows when to lock us up in a place so we'll never enter into it again, knowing what it is like.

So He submerges us into sin so we never enter it again.

God doesn't want us to straddle the fence between World and God, passing back and forth between the two, so he might just lock the gate between World and God, and let us be stuck in World for a little while, so we'll come running back to God and not straddle the fence any more.

So now you agree He locks us up in a sinful world He created.

BTW I'm making progress. I'm called a Calvinist now. Who had thought that 2 years ago

That explains your weird ideas of God.

Lefein, just study Scriptures 2 years and you will take those words back :laughing7:

[Lefein]

Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.

So you agree sickness nad all sorts of negativity are part of a perfect plan.

Not in the way you'd have me believe.

That's your crappy conclusion.

I'll take it, its better than an imperfect God.

So He submerges us into sin so we never enter it again.

Baptism isn't drowning.

So now you agree He locks us up in a sinful world He created.

He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him.  Rocks don't sin - people do.  Physics don't sin, people do.

His world is still good, it is people in it who are not.  He made it good, but it is being made Perfect as he immunises.

Lefein, just study Scriptures 2 years and you will take those words back

Presumption before pride before fall.

PS: My first post was edited, and re-edited with new things you may address if you so choose.

[Beloved Servant]

WhiteWings,
I like the new graphic, there's something peaceful about it, thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

NP James

[Paul Hazelwood]

And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.

Finally! So now you see God used satan's evil as a tool to perfect Job.
[/quote]


Then what is perfect?  Job was considered perfect before Satan was let loose on him.   Now he is more perfect?

I'll take imperfection and God can leave me family alone, if that is what this amounts to.   I'll gladly hear,  "Have you considered my servant paul, wait, never mind, look at him...  ah, come hither, have you considered my servant Job"    :happy3:

[Lefein]

There is something, now having perhaps a revelation of it that I'd like to go into if we could;

Would it be an accurate statement, or idea even that "God is Perfection"?  God is certainly Perfect, so that would mean that Perfection is an eternal quality of God?

Or to put it a simpler way;

In the same way that Love is something God is not just something God does, would it be accurate to say God is Perfection also?

[Beloved Servant]

He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him. 

But...
God everywhere present

In Jeremiah 23:24 God declares, "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"

God Himself is present everywhere in His majesty and power.

"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me" (Psalms 139:7-10).

In David's understanding, it is God himself who is there, not just his power or authority. In using the personal pronoun, "Thou," he leaves us with no doubt. Even the abode of the dead is not apart from God's omnipresence (Revelation 14:10).

So, by omnipresence, God, in the totality of His essence, without diffusion or expansion, multiplication or division, penetrates and fills the universe and beyond in all its parts.

[thinktank]

I believe that Job walked perfectly before the lord, but then satan came along and God used this opportunity, to turn evil into good, by allowing the devil to do as he does, and then for God to turn that evil into good. Job thanks to this experience had a great deal of revelation of who God is, being the grand creator of all things and giver of all good things and don't forget the bigger picture, that this experience brought revelation from Job to the scribes about the nature of God and also about the nature of the devil. Before this incident where did we know that devil destroys, and God blesses in such a dramatic fashion.

A good question is did Job know that Satan existed?
Who wrote that part about the devil appearing before Job, did they tell him about this instance? Did he know that it was the devil who destroyed his possessions and not God?

Blaming God for the destruction is a bit like a person who got his house robbed, instead of blaming the robber, the person blames the security guard for not protecting the house, God wanted to reveal this thing about Job hidden in his heart.

[Lefein]

Beloved Servant; Distance from God is not about physical distance.  "Your lips honour me, but your heart is far from me" That is distance from God.

[thinktank]

He didn't create it sinful, sin arose via distance from him. 

But...
God everywhere present

In Jeremiah 23:24 God declares, "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"

God Himself is present everywhere in His majesty and power.

"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me" (Psalms 139:7-10).

In David's understanding, it is God himself who is there, not just his power or authority. In using the personal pronoun, "Thou," he leaves us with no doubt. Even the abode of the dead is not apart from God's omnipresence (Revelation 14:10).

So, by omnipresence, God, in the totality of His essence, without diffusion or expansion, multiplication or division, penetrates and fills the universe and beyond in all its parts.

But when hes there in person the place become sanctified, such as the ark of the covenant and where Moses had to take of his shoes, for it is holy ground. Also, our temples, one mans temple is holier than the other for one is filled with the holy spirit the other is filled with an unclean spirit, also the temple of Jerusalem is where priests did their ceromonies.

[Beloved Servant]

Beloved Servant; Distance from God is not about physical distance.  "Your lips honour me, but your heart is far from me" That is distance from God.

The Lord does not use the word distance.

Your use of the Word confuses me.

[Lefein]

Isa 29:13  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

"Farness", is a matter of distance.  It shouldn't be confusing at all...

As for the good Lord using the word "distance", the CLV version;

Mat 15:8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.

[legoman]

What do you all make of this verse?

Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

[Lefein]

What do you all make of this verse?

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I interpret it this way;

To make Creation incorruptible as he is - he needs to shake out what ever might arise that is corruptible.  If creation were like a bit of clay that dirt and corruption had arose in the lump of; he must press the corruption out.  The clay is still subject to the vain existence of being clay, not a finished, perfect vessel, and it will be subject to being that lump of vain clay until it is ready to be solid, and unchanging as God is - IE: Fired in a kiln and solidified as a vessel fit for Glory.  However, if he fired Creation in the kiln too early, it'd burst apart due to the corruption.  So he subjects it with expectation to the process of his kneading, his "all consuming fire" which removes the corruption that arises from the clay and then he shall fire it in his kiln, salting with fire, and it shall be Perfect, and Free, being made free indeed by Jesus.

Soft clay is a futile thing to try and use for an instrument, or vessel - a perfect, glorified vase however, is excellent at holding the flowering beauty of God.  He subjects them to futility, not imperfection.  He calls for perfection, it would be against himself to call for something - and then subject men to it, especially when his purpose is to free, to perfect, and to glorify.  He'd be working against his own will.

[shawn]

Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect.  The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not.  But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially).  The law brought forth sin and sin...death.

I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect.  For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin.  There is much value to that being.  But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first.  I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be.  In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.

[thinktank]

What do you all make of this verse?

Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam and Eve did not want to be cursed or suffer consequences, just like all of us, but God subjected them to it, so that through it they may learn the ways of rightoeusness which leads to life. Adams way of desiring to be above God, was a way unto death, for there can only be one God in control and he will not give his glory to another or be usurped by another.

[legoman]

What do you all make of this verse?

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I interpret it this way;

To make Creation incorruptible as he is - he needs to shake out what ever might arise that is corruptible.  If creation were like a bit of clay that dirt and corruption had arose in the lump of; he must press the corruption out.  The clay is still subject to the vain existence of being clay, not a finished, perfect vessel, and it will be subject to being that lump of vain clay until it is ready to be solid, and unchanging as God is - IE: Fired in a kiln and solidified as a vessel fit for Glory.  However, if he fired Creation in the kiln too early, it'd burst apart due to the corruption.  So he subjects it with expectation to the process of his kneading, his "all consuming fire" which removes the corruption that arises from the clay and then he shall fire it in his kiln, salting with fire, and it shall be Perfect, and Free, being made free indeed by Jesus.

Soft clay is a futile thing to try and use for an instrument, or vessel - a perfect, glorified vase however, is excellent at holding the flowering beauty of God.  He subjects them to futility, not imperfection.  He calls for perfection, it would be against himself to call for something - and then subject men to it, especially when his purpose is to free, to perfect, and to glorify.  He'd be working against his own will.

I agree God is making us incorruptible. This implies we are not incorruptible yet - we are corrupted. Part of that process of God making us incorruptible is that He subjected us to vanity - corruption, which I believe is what the verse says - that is how I see it.

What you say above - how did the clay become corrupted?  It was subjected by God, no?

That is the question.  How did anything become corrupted?

[legoman]

What do you all make of this verse?

Romans 8:20 [NIV] For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NASB] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:20 [NLT] Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,
Romans 8:20 [KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam and Eve did not want to be cursed or suffer consequences, just like all of us, but God subjected them to it, so that through it they may learn the ways of rightoeusness which leads to life. Adams way of desiring to be above God, was a way unto death, for there can only be one God in control and he will not give his glory to another or be usurped by another.

But God subjected us to vanity - vanity itself is a sin.

Previously you had said God was not in control?

[legoman]

Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect.  The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not.  But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially).  The law brought forth sin and sin...death.

I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect.  For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin.  There is much value to that being.  But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first.  I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be.  In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.

"I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect."

Indeed.  Have you considered God is making us perfect - and to reach a state of perfection, we must first travel the road of imperfection - ie. vanity, frustration, futility, sin, and evil...

It is God's will for us all to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth - which includes knowledge of good and evil.

[Lefein]

It does not say creation was subjected to corruption, but subject to vanity.  Which in the sense of the language of the time would mean something that we'd today call "disposable".

I do not believe God subjected creation to corruption, corruption is imperfection which I do not believe was created at all, seeing as how God is Perfection and God has no creator.

For how it became corrupted, I'd say it is distance from God that caused it.  Distance from perfection, is distance from the mark, distance from the mark is missing it; IE: sin.

What drew men from God in the first place?  The Serpent initiated men to look at themselves, not God, to become selfish "YOU will become as gods".  I believe it was Satan who did this - how Satan became corrupted, we are not told...and we probably don't even really need to know.

I don't believe however, that Satan was created evil, it goes against God's character to create an already imperfect being.

It is my current belief that Satan by some means or another, became selfish - and that self-focus took his focus away from God, and so his heart became distant from God - and thus came the downward spiral where corruption first arose, and so began the process where it must be shaken out until only the incorruptible stands, and is glorified.

[legoman]

It does not say creation was subjected to corruption, but subject to vanity.  Which in the sense of the language of the time would mean something that we'd today call "disposable".

I do not believe God subjected creation to corruption, corruption is imperfection which I do not believe was created at all, seeing as how God is Perfection and God has no creator.

For how it became corrupted, I'd say it is distance from God that caused it.  Distance from perfection, is distance from the mark, distance from the mark is missing it; IE: sin.

What drew men from God in the first place?  The Serpent initiated men to look at themselves, not God, to become selfish "YOU will become as gods".  I believe it was Satan who did this - how Satan became corrupted, we are not told...and we probably don't even really need to know.

I don't believe however, that Satan was created evil, it goes against God's character to create an already imperfect being.

It is my current belief that Satan by some means or another, became selfish - and that self-focus took his focus away from God, and so his heart became distant from God - and thus came the downward spiral were corruption first arose, and so began the process where it must be shaken out until only the incorruptible stands, and is glorified.

This is the root issue, which I don't think you answered.  How does anything become corrupted?  How did Satan become corrupted if He was "perfect"?  That is a contradiction in terms.

God created everything... why are some things "distanced from God" as you put it and why was that even possible since God created them?

This is the flaw in your argument.  If God created everything to be perfect and good, then why are we imperfect and evil?

The answer I propose is that God is still making us - it is a process - and by definition, since we are in the middle of that process, we are not perfect yet.  We never were perfect.  But when the process is done, we will be perfect.  So since we are imperfect right now, we are by nature not complete - we are corrupted, fallen, sinful.  It is part of the process of being subjected to vanity.  So we can eventually be freed from bondage of corruption into glorious freedom of children of God.  That is what the verse says:

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Thus why God creates evil.  It is a temporary necessity to reach incorruption.

God is in control here remember...

[shawn]

Yeah...I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect.  The angels have knowledge of good and evil yet other than those who rebelled with satan sin not.  But, God chose to make man in his image, yet with the inability to have knowledge of good and evil and not sin (at least initially).  The law brought forth sin and sin...death.

I wonder out loud here but I believe there to be degrees of perfect.  For instance, lets say God made man without choice, unable to sin.  There is much value to that being.  But, the creature with choice, purified by the fire, who knows good and evil yet chooses good...chooses God...is even more perfect than the first.  I believe it's like Paul (the poster) states...it just had to be.  In order that we could be the kind of creation seen in the second example...sin had to come...then be overcome.

"I have always wondered why God didn't just make us perfect."

Indeed.  Have you considered God is making us perfect - and to reach a state of perfection, we must first travel the road of imperfection - ie. vanity, frustration, futility, sin, and evil...

It is God's will for us all to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth - which includes knowledge of good and evil.

Yeah as I stated later in the paragraph.

[Lefein]

This is the root issue, which I don't think you answered.  How does anything become corrupted?  How did Satan become corrupted if He was "perfect"?  That is a contradiction in terms.

The same way anything becomes imperfect, by not being perfect anymore, which is done by no longer a part of him who is Perfection.  How did he become corrupted?  I don't know, simply put.  Nothing has yet been made incorruptible, not even the angels.  They too are subject to disposable vanity, being a part of Creation, until the incorruptible, glorified are what is left and nothing may then be disposable.

God created everything... why are some things "distanced from God" as you put it and why was that even possible since God created them?

Because a target to hit, has a possibility to miss, until the skill to hit it 100% all the time, is learned when Perfection is All in All.

This is the flaw in your argument.  If God created everything to be perfect and good, then why are we imperfect and evil?

Because of our own distance from his heart, and mark.  I'd go further, but I cannot do so without getting into the forbidden subject.

Sufficed to say; God is not a ventriloquist.

The answer I propose is that God is still making us - it is a process - and by definition, since we are in the middle of that process, we are not perfect yet.  We never were perfect.  But when the process is done, we will be perfect.  So since we are imperfect right now, we are by nature not complete - we are corrupted, fallen, sinful.  It is part of the process of being subjected to vanity.  So we can eventually be freed from bondage of corruption into glorious freedom of children of God.  That is what the verse says:

I agree with the sentiment, though perhaps not the details.

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Thus why God creates evil.  It is a temporary necessity to reach incorruption.

God did not create Sin.

God is in control here remember...

I never denied that.  And God not being the author of lies or sin doesn't automatically void him of sovereignty either.  It does however kill the idea that God had any form of wickedness in his imaginations, that would even possibly be expressed in his creative nature, or works.

Something disposable has its use, but Sin has not a single good use whatsoever.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

Excellent offering!  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Amen...  :thumbsup:

Might I preface what I am about to say...

FIRST --- Though you well may scoff (and it does not bother me if you do), ...I propose that the book of JOB is metaphorical/parabolic notation... and that it is an illustration of GOD "thinking (considering mentally) to Himself"... as do MEN who are created in His image, "think (consider mentally) to themselves" as they make decisions.  Men certainly do NOT have any ability that GOD does not have, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD. :nod:

SECOND --- The "land of UZ" is the place where this all takes place -- Job 1:1 -- the word "UZ" is UWTS -- #5780  which is a derivitive of "UZ" --- UWTS -- #5779 -- which means to TAKE ADVICE or CONSULT (counsel TOGETHER) --  :declare:

Let us also consider that SCRIPTURE testifies, that NO ONE counsels (advises) YHVH  GOD! -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Rom 11:34 -- 1 Cor 2:16... Either Scripture is believed by those beholding it, ...or it is not... 

Anyone so moved, please s'plain to me, these 4 verses, in "light" of "satan" as GOD's ..."advisor" (which is "believed" by most surface readers of Job)...  :dontknow:   Advising YHVH  that if He were to remove the "hedge" (of blessing/good) that Job would curse Him to His face -- Job 2:5

IOW ..."satan" suggesting that GOD remove the "hedge" -- Job 2:5  -- is indeed, COUNSEL (advice)... and further suggests, that GOD was also "unaware" of this "hedge" that He had placed around JOB!  And even further suggests that GOD needed ADVICE as to his dealings with His own creation, being oblivious both to ADVERSITY, and to His own doings of RIGHTEOUSNESS (in blessing Job by protecting Him within the ongoing blessing of "GOOD")... 

:mshock: = :rolleye: = :Yeahright:

So if one will consider that ALL THINGS have their source in the Creator... then the suggestion as well as the suggestor both had their point of origin in the Creator.  And in truth... This whole thing is GOD (as do men made in His image), thinking to Himself... and NOT taking the "wisdom/advice" from the Christian created mythical "father of LIES"...

Rather it is an ILLUSTRATION of BOTH of the portions of the KNOWLEDGE which YHVH  Himself possesses --- the TWO components which are EXISTENTLY able IN HIS KNOWLEDGE (which is PERFECT IN BOTH RESPECTS) to be applied to LIVING beings... GOOD and EVIL...

And when manifest, clearly illustrates which of the TWO within this manifest ILLUSTRATION... is the BEST component when applied to LIVING beings...  as well as which brings forth the PERFECT result concerning the CONDUCT of LIFE... when applied to ANY LIVING BEING (not just JOB)... :nod:

So... in conclusion...

In the book of JOB... (who is in the land of UZ, a "land" wherein JOB, ...a LIVING man,  while taking the counseling together/consultation/advice of GOD --- has GOOD removed, ...but this "removal" still does not provoke cursing from JOB of YHVH  for removing that "GOOD" from his circumstances)

God illustrates that (in the MIND of God which PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY "KNOWS" Good and Evil) it is an ETERNAL LIE of ADVERSITY and INCORRECT PROPHETIC conjecture, ...that when the hedge of blessing is removed from JOB (a righteous man) that he shall curse God to His face, for that "cursing" never takes place in this writing...

And so those who are UPRIGHT, regardless of GOOD being removed from their circumstances (i.e. the removal of loved ones, possessions, health, etc.) ...are the "JOB's" which shall each go even unto the GRAVE of death... with praise of GOD upon their lips of Him, never cursing Him for the removals of GOOD as they LIVED...

willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

But God subjected us to vanity - vanity itself is a sin.

Previously you had said God was not in control?
legoman


I did not say God had no control, such a statement is illogical and without faith. I said that God does not have total control, this is why we pray for Gods angels to protect our loved ones, to protect from enemies - those who do not have the heart of God, including the devil and his angels.
Do you think its Gods will for a mad gunman to gundown a school? Gods will is to change the heart of that gunman and set them free before even going down such a path. When such evil happens God responds by healing those who have been hurt, but unless his people take up the cause, they will not be healed, but likely go towards destruction.

I am puzzled by some of the statments here in this thread made about God, I think many have over thought this process and tangled themselves up concerning Gods true will.