The Problem of Evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: In the beginning was GOD......period. Everything that exists, exists by Him and for Him and His purposes. If it didn't, it simply wouldn't exist, as He is not impotent to do anything about it, therefore it exists for His purpose. The premise that it doesn't, is no different than the ones in Christiandom who have a great big powerful devil, and a "little bitty" God.

Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.

[Beloved Servant]

Generally speaking perhaps but God does not have full control over everything in this earth, that is why millions of kids are dying with aids. The idea that God is in control of all things is a Christian myth, repeated over and over again, until people believe that myth, even when evidence is contrary. But have faith in God that he can heal all evil and wrong done to people.

This is the post to which I replied, TTank, that you either do not read or believe the Scriptures. Nothing more; nothing less.
For it is written:

Colossians 1:17
   
New International Version (©1984)
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New Living Translation (©2007)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

International Standard Version (©2008)
He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He existed before everything and holds everything together.

King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American King James Version
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

American Standard Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Bible in Basic English
He is before all things, and in him all things have being.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

Darby Bible Translation
And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him.

English Revised Version
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Weymouth New Testament
And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.

World English Bible
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

Young's Literal Translation
and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

[Cardinal]

Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.

:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"

The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My  :2c: Blessings....

[thinktank]

I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just like the Master who had all He was given taken away from Him the same way.......and the servant is not greater than the master. Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.

:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"

The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My  :2c: Blessings....

That is fine,  but  so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil. 

Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now?   That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.

If it is all good what the Lord does then that should sound like good news if it were to happen.   I have met no one that actually feel s good about it, however under this style of belief where no matter what God does it is good, then absolutely anything goes.

He could even lie and it would be good.

[Beloved Servant]

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?

[Cardinal]

Not really, but the nature of their existance makes the difference in a purely righteous God that we can learn to see or simply a being that because he is more powerful than us can say it is good and we can't do anything about it anyway.

:cloud9: I already see Him as a purely righteous God, irregardless of what He does. "Have you considered my servant Job?" What followed was Job's loss of everything (initially) at the hand of Satan His firebrand and tool, and yet Job sinned not with his lips when he said "should we receive ONLY good from the Lord and not evil?"

The Job experience basically mirrors the cross experience and is what brings the double portion, for Job received double. The only ones to receive double were the FIRSTBORN. He is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, which means the brethren are going to have to go thru some type of Job experience, tailored personally for them, so He is not ashamed to call them brethren, and so they receive the double portion. My  :2c: Blessings....

That is fine,  but  so far no one has allowed their own personal life to be included as the one being made by God to commit evil. 

Do you understand and feel glorified that in the future he would cause you to comitt great and heanous crimes against even someone you feel love for now?   That where you sit now in belief and honor and service to the Lord means nothing concerning God making you go out and kill someones entire family.

If it is all good what the Lord does then that should sound like good news if it were to happen.   I have met no one that actually feel s good about it, however under this style of belief where no matter what God does it is good, then absolutely anything goes.

He could even lie and it would be good.

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

I have felt what it's like to have Him take the hand of His Spirit from off me (and as bad as it was, I doubt it was COMPLETELY off), for only a few hours for His teaching purposes, and it's unimaginable, and entirely in the realm of possibility to be capable of anything. It's ONLY the hand of His Spirit keeping the evil in check at all, both in us and around ANY of us, just as He told the waters to go "here" and no further. Whether I stand or whether I fall, it's entirely up to Him. ALL sin is common to man, which means all men are "equiped" to do it all, even if it's only in their hearts. His taking His hand off someone, IS what allows the evil to proceed forth OUT OF THE HEART OF MAN, into visibility.

We don't have to do anything to die except be "normal". The purpose is to find life thru death, there is no other way. Death has a stinger, and that stinger is sin. We have all been stung by it, and all will die like men until they learn to die like "gods". Have I not said ye are gods and yet ye die like men? How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than he lay his life down for his friends. Abraham was God's friend, because he laid his life (from his loins, his promised son) down.

In the same way, we have to lay down everything He has given us and be willing to receive "evil" from the Lord, like Job said. The difference is in how we perceive the motive; the motive, like Him, is perfect, it's our perception of it that's off. ALL things work together for good, for those that love the Lord. ALL things means, ALL THINGS. And it's not easy to see it that way, it is deliberately veiled by, and from our carnal minds, only receivable from the Spirit. My  :2c: Blessings...

[shawn]

I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.

The Lord knew Job's heart.  And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion?  I have heard that many times and it has never made sense.  I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

[shawn]

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Exactly.  God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion.  So, there must be a deeper meaning to this story.  I believe it lines up with what you are saying.  It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God.  I think it's easy for us to become discouraged when facing trials.  I know for me it's easy for me to feel like God has lost love for me...that I have displeased him in some way.  This is my carnal mind speaking because I know in my spirit that he will never let me go, that all things will be worked for my good.  This has been evident through my life and God has never failed me or gone back on his word.  If a man who is perfect and upright before God will be put through the fire, then I will be put through the fire as well.  This story is a word of encouragement for those of us who are being dragged through the sanctification process.

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: Your comment makes no sense to me, as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALREADY. I don't have to wait for some mythical "future evil" to befall me or come thru me, I'VE ALREADY been weighed in the balances and found wanting, by virtue of Him who subjected me in the first place.

Nothing mythical about what I am proposing.   What you have weighed isn't what I am questioning.   I am asking you outright if you believe God can cause you in the future to commit a horrible act of evil since it seems like you believe that anyone who does evil was caused by God to do so.

If I am to honor all that God does, and he has caused human beings to commit evil deeds, then I must consider that he can at any time cause me to do the same, and I must see that as honorable that I would do such things at his hand,

I could be wrong about what I think you believe, please clarify if I am.

[thinktank]

I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.

The Lord knew Job's heart.  And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion?  I have heard that many times and it has never made sense.  I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying.

If God didn't care about the devils opinion why did he grant him an audience?

Why did he answer his questions and grant his requests of removing his hand of protection from Job?

Why put this in the holy text if the devil has nothing to do with it?

The fact is that before this audience with the devil Job lived a perfect life before God, but after the devil incident with God, now Job is facing trials and difficulties. Why confuse the readers? Shouldn' t God have just dealt wth Job himself and left the devil out of the equation.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Exactly.  God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion.  So, there must be a deeper meaning to this story.  I believe it lines up with what you are saying.  It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God.  I think it's easy for us to become discouraged when facing trials.  I know for me it's easy for me to feel like God has lost love for me...that I have displeased him in some way.  This is my carnal mind speaking because I know in my spirit that he will never let me go, that all things will be worked for my good.  This has been evident through my life and God has never failed me or gone back on his word.  If a man who is perfect and upright before God will be put through the fire, then I will be put through the fire as well.  This story is a word of encouragement for those of us who are being dragged through the sanctification process.

:cloud9: Amen.......and look at Job's confession after the ordeal......

Job 42:5 KJV
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear (inner court): but now mine eye seeth (Holy of Holies) thee.


Sound familiar?

1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Have to leave for awhile......Blessings....

[Yab Yum]

"Evil" can be as contextual as "good". Cutting someone open is never really "good" - but may be a necessary "evil" to perform a life-giving medical procedure. in any of the passages you cite (thank you) can we say that the "evil" spoken of is absolutely, essentially evil?

[Beloved Servant]

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

It appears that Satan was already there on the same earth as Job and you and I.



And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God approaches Satan first! He did not grant Satan an audience.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: And let's not forget God's own witness about Job.....

Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Exactly.  God knew exactly what kind of man Job was and I don't believe he cares one bit about the devil's opinion.

Neither will He be tricked into something by satan. Satan never has good intentions but still it seems God liked satans idea because He agreed.
Likely God agreed because He wanted improve Job.
Satan likely aimed for destruction. Even death but God didn't allow that.

Evil for good and bad intend.

So, there must be a deeper meaning to this story.  I believe it lines up with what you are saying.  It's a note that even the most devout of believers will be put through the fire for the purposes known to God.

^YLTMark 9
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
50 The salt is good, but if the salt may become saltless, in what will ye season it ? Have in yourselves salt, and have peace in one another.'

[WhiteWings]

I think in jobs case it was a test, to see if he truly loved the lord, or as the devil thought, he only loved the lord because he gave him many things. God wanted to prove Jobs heart to the devil and so let him destroy all the blessings that God gave him.

The Lord knew Job's heart.  And why would God care one bit about the devil's opinion?  I have heard that many times and it has never made sense.  I believe the story of Job lines up more with what Cardinal is saying.

If God didn't care about the devils opinion why did he grant him an audience?

So the universe has 2 kings?
^YLTGen 3
10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?

Why did he answer his questions and grant his requests of removing his hand of protection from Job?

"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.

Why put this in the holy text if the devil has nothing to do with it?

The Holy Text shows that satan asked and Father agreed. Father set some rules like do not kill him. Satan obeyed. Father could just as well refused the request.

The fact is that before this audience with the devil Job lived a perfect life before God, but after the devil incident with God, now Job is facing trials and difficulties. Why confuse the readers? Shouldn' t God have just dealt wth Job himself and left the devil out of the equation.

God never gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

It appears that Satan was already there on the same earth as Job and you and I.

And not just once. Many times.
It even happens after the cursed serpent. :winkgrin:

[thinktank]

So the universe has 2 kings?
YLTGen 3
10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?

Not the universe but the world has 2 kings. One is the god of this world and one is the God of righteousness, our saviour.

Of course God knew where Adam and Eve hid, he wanted to hear it from their mouths, confession!

"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.

How do you know what God was planning to do  :dontknow:
Gods ways are higher than our ways. I have had prophecies said to me that I would do and come to pass, but they did not come to pass because I failed to take action.

God does change, he changes us day by day, and he changes his judgment towards us if we repent. Many times God is frowning upon us, but we repent and then, he smiles at us and gives us mercy, but for those who don't repent, the judgment of God shall take its route.

The Holy Text shows that satan asked and Father agreed. Father set some rules like do not kill him. Satan obeyed. Father could just as well refused the request.

Yes, because Job lived a holy life and was precious in God eyes. When Job lost his possesions, the people of God thought that he must have sinned. But through the procees of allowing the devil to test jobs heart, job broke down and blamed God, but eventually through much pain, he repented and turned back to God, his first love and proved to God his faithfullness, through trials.

eGod nver gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork.

To return to him. Notice that God rarely gets involved in the affairs of the pagans, but only talks about Israel. Today his message to the unbeliver is, look at this saviour Jesus you have not heard of before.

But to christians it is often, repent for your sins, or face judgment.

[WhiteWings]

So the universe has 2 kings?
YLTGen 3
10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

Didn't God really know where Adam and Eve hid?

Not the universe but the world has 2 kings. One is the god of this world and one is the God of righteousness, our saviour.

But Father is the highest God. One blink of His eye and Satans kingdom is no more.
My point is not that satan has no power or doesn't anything. My point is that there is that Father keeps a close eye on satan an if needed  :punish:

Of course God knew where Adam and Eve hid, he wanted to hear it from their mouths, confession!

Exactly. Just as God knew in the garden, He didn't need any advise from satan on how He should handle Job.

"I God do not change"
So Satan asked what God already was planning to do.

How do you know what God was planning to do  :dontknow:

If God was planning to give Job a some candy that day and because of satan He doesn't because so major testing started that day; then satan changed Father's mind. And because Father doesn't change His mind it must have been His plan...

Gods ways are higher than our ways. I have had prophecies said to me that I would do and come to pass, but they did not come to pass because I failed to take action.

How do you call prophecies that don't come tru? False prophesies.
I had a prophesy I would win the jackpot this summer. I didn't win a cent. So God lied/changed His ways. So the one giving the prophesy was wrong. (or I misunderstood)

God does change, he changes us day by day,

He changes us. Not Himself....

and he changes his judgment towards us if we repent.

That's not change. If I always wear a black coat on Saturday and a white coat on Sunday I'm not changing. Only if after years I start wearing a red coat then I change.
God does not change to me simple means: No change in plan. No change in rules.

Many times God is frowning upon us, but we repent and then, he smiles at us and gives us mercy, but for those who don't repent, the judgment of God shall take its route.

Yes. That's what the Scripture says. He does that now. And in a billion years. He doesn't change to someone that doesn't give mercy.
Seems we have  awhole different understanding of that verse.... :laughing7:

God nver gets involved personally.
He uses floods, earthquakes and meteorites. And the red guy with the pitchfork.

[Lefein]

EDITED, if there is something in it, tell me first, that way I can restate it in a better way.

Ok, then we should translate "ra" to say calamity.
That would mean evil is never mentioned in the Bible.

Perhaps.  Certainly we should not translate it in the way we think of the word "evil" today.  Much like Hell, Evil is an English word we've now taken out of context as English evolved.

So because Job was a good man God used satan to make Job even better. (satan=evil)

But not in the way we would like to imply.  A general can use the blunders, the weaknesses of his enemies to allow for one of his battalions to take and stand on more solid ground.  But he did not defect to the enemy's side, nor party up with them.

So God created stain remover = satan.

Hence my statement; Hitler was once an innocent baby.  Satan wasn't formed in the eons before The Beginning as a wicked sinner, unless evil was in the heart of God to be expressed in one of his creations - who he will decide to blame for His own wicked nature.

No. A flaw is only a flaw if it doesn't work as intended. A surgeon that gets 100% of his patients killed gets fired. A soldier that kills 100% of his enemies gets a medal.
Perfection is always relative to the goal.

God however, is God who is by default supposed to be absolutely sinless and perfect.

If God created evil, it is out of his own heart - it doesn't matter what his intent is, even if/though his intent is better than the original creation.

If God created it, it came out of his heart.  If God created sin, it came abundantly out of his essence.  If God's essence contains wickendess, then he is not a Holy God.

The Bible also says the Potter created that pot for evil/destruction/calamity. The verse is showing God having control over his creation but you take all that away by removing 'quality control' from the potters hand.
You potter creates a billion pots and a while after He looks sadly when 95% of the pots a leaking.

Not at all, I only take away the idea that God is the author of lies, and iniquity, which makes God not God at all, let alone sovereign or in control.

If the pots are cracked, he is in the process of shining through their brokeness.  However, a god who invented evil seems to look on with a terrible grin as he makes one man kidnap the little girl in Rwanda, and make her his personal pleasure slave - calling her a "wife".  This god seems perfectly content to make a man who commits genocide, and not only makes him do it, but intended for him to do it.  This god made the Israelites sacrifice their babies to Molech, which is against the scriptures.  An imperfect god denies the Scriptures, by not being God, but by being the author of iniquity.

Yahweh is Perfect, and this god who invented evil is not Yahweh

He didn't. But He drowned all neighbors of Noach and burned down Sodom and the other 4 cities by His own hand/power.
Or do you think that evil calamity was done by satan? Or Satan forced God to take that action?

See an earlier post of mine on Judgement.  Common sin, gets common judgement.  The hypothetical example I gave;

A man who shoplifts gets an earthquake in his spirit.

If every man in a town is stealing from each other constantly - their town gets an earthquake wholesale.

Tell that to the judge that sentence me for jail for suffocating childeren in air tight room. I didn't kill them. I just removed air.
Just like God who removed the light.

Would you rather God did it, and be an evil God just proving his sovereignty so you can feel better?

Are you setting the guidelines for God?

It is a silly accusation for you to make that I am setting guidelines for God, and the root of it is even sillier.  Just because I don't believe in the weird idea that God twists arms and makes people sin, doesn't mean I'm setting guide lines for God.  As it stands, I'm holding God to his own standard of perfection, defining God by his own given revelation, his own Word.

If God is not perfect, or righteous in the way that he tells us to be righteous - then there is something up.

I have faith enough that God would rather me hold him to his own standard and have greater faith in knowing my Father to be true - than to have the littlest faith and not even seek to go beyond "God did it".

Lots of things entered Gods heart. The verse just means He decided not to use that option.
He used the option on Sodom

Judgement is a righteous act.  Causing a man to sin is not, inventing methods of sin is not, inventing sin is not.

God gave us life on earth, he can take it away - it is his property.

The question is this: Is the sinful state all due to mankind? Or is God Himself part of the puzzle.
He locked us up in disobedience so He may have mercey on all.
Sounds like active plan involving evil.

The sinful state is not out of God himself, unless our God is the Omni-devil.

A man might enter into his own prison, because he enjoys the wickedness he can act in, but God in his mercy would not want a man living in such a Hell as that - so he locks him in, so the man might realise that the Father would rather give the man his best, which means that the man should not want the prison.

How would the man know it is a prison, if he does not become locked up in it long enough to realise it has made him a prisoner?

God locking men up in disobedience, is not God making them disobey - it is him revealing to them the depraved state they've brought on themselves, so that they will cry out to escape the Hell they were blissfully playing with - but now hopelessly mired in.

Maybe we are living in hell/LoF right now....

Maybe, but I can't be certain.

imo you are mixing up 2 concepts.
1] Being a sinner.
2] Causing sin.

God states we can do nothing good of ourself. God=Light=Good
God is full of light so can't sin.
Mankind full of light can't sin either.
The whole point is that God removed (part of) our light. That's by definition means initiating sin.

You can't cause sin, unless you're a sinner.  But if I might be so bold, I think one of the biggest mistakes mankind has ever made, has been blaming God for their own fault so that they could pass on the responsibility, or even the guilt of it onto another; "I didn't do it, God made me do it."

To this I say; Stop it, God had nothing to do with you passing your child through the fire to Molech, neither did he make you look lustfully at that girl, and neither did he make you hate your brother.

Again you proved God being active in the sin department. :winkgrin:
Sin is absence of good. Good=light=God.
Sin is God withdrawn from us. God withdrawn Himself from us. He isn't cast out like a demon.
When the light return into someone evil is no more. Ask Saul what happend when he recieved that light.

You confuse children running away from God to be with themselves, with God withdrawing himself.

God is omnipresent, he might turn his face, but it is we who try to let go of his hand.  Sin is us being withdrawn from God, turning our face from God and onto other gods like self, mammon, idols, reputation, things, etc.

The only time God ever judged Israel, or withdrew himself - was when Israel went whoring after idols.  God didn't make righteous Israelites do it, they did it on their own accord.  It was then that God withdrew, so that they would come running back after having experienced the fruit of the gods they desired.  Bitter, bad tasting fruit.

And no one can force God out of him/herself.

The same with Hate, it is the absence, and distance from Love.

People initiate the withdrawl, before God ever does.

What's perfect? You might have another idea of perfection as Father.
In your eyes His ways are not perfect. Earth is a mess.
By perfect design?
Or overruled/outsmarted by mankind.

"In your eyes"?

You're not talking to me then, but probably someone behind me.

His ways certainly are perfect, the Earth is indeed a mess.  Not because of being over ruled, or outsmarted, you're working under a false premise.

God has not yet reached his intent for us, Glory, and Perfection, God is certainly not satisfied with leaving us "merely good", that is not his best, and the Father wants to give his best.  That means that he must allow us the freedom to be immunised to what ever disease of corruption might rise up to make us corruptible, so that when we are fully immune to it, and made beautiful in His due time, nothing but incorruption will stand, and we will be as he is; Incorruptible, glorious, and perfect.

It seems to me, that you'd rather have a god who thinks of famine, pestilence, and war as perfect - rather than a god who is shaking these things out of Heaven and Earth as their possibilities arise so that imperfection is rid of where it surfaces, in such a way so that it might NEVER rise up again.  Like drawing poison from a wound, when poison goes in six inches deep, it must be drawn out six inches forth.

You seem to think, that unless God has his hand in every man's backside making him lie, cheat, steal, rape, and kill - that He is somehow outsmarted.

God is not mocked by the works of man, but he certainly doesn't make man try to mock him so he can wrongfully misplace blame later.

If I coerce one of my future children to drop a brick on one of my other children's faces - I have no right to whip my child for doing what I told him to do, even though it was wrong.  And infact, I am quite a wicked person for even coercing the child to do it in the first place, it is my fault at root.

In that case He's imperfect.

Then alas, there is no God worth worshiping.

So God created imperfection. Otherwise He can't burn it out.

God did not command, nor express into being that his children should sacrifice their own babies to Molech.  God did not create imperfection.

God is and God is the mark of perfection.  God was not created, neither was Perfection - therefore Imperfection, that which misses the mark who is God, and Godliness, was not created either.

I think that option is gift wrapped in a veil :-)

You can believe that if you want, I personally think it is the better option than worshiping an imperfect God and hoping he is good beneath all that evil he's expressed out of his heart.

It's your premise that's false Lefein.
It could not fall. I was designed to fall.

You weren't designed to fall, you were designed to be Glorified.

I agree with that.
So Father willfully created something that falls short of His glory. For a reason.
So imperfection is part of the perfect plan.
God hold back the light. (main cause of sin)

Imperfection wasn't created, because God(Perfection) was not created.

Now we have no purpose in believing that God created imperfection as a part of any plan.

True. It also shows God actively choose Adam to fall. He choose to NOT indwell Adam.
Adam feel=sinned by design.

He was not designed to fall, there is no evidence to support that humans were meant to be fallen creatures.  The whole of human study from psychology to biology and beyond shows that man is not meant to live in a fallen state.

Sickness is a sign of crappy design.

So you'd rather have an imperfect god than a perfect design that is not yet finished being built?

He intends but because He's a lousy doctor He fails. And when He has a healty induvidual like Job He allows satan to cause sickness.

And then Job having gone through it, has an even stronger health and prosperity that was before.

Agreed. And again shows God created imperfection as part of  aperfect plan.

God did not create imperfection no more than he created perfection, Perfection simply 'is', because God is Perfection, and he himself was not created.

Really? I don't live in a bubble. I'm blessed with an iron immume system. I for example never had the flu in my whole life.

You didn't always.  And of course you don't live in a Bubble, you're not naked running around in a garden.

Illness is a crappy design of the immume system.

Would you rather have an imperfect god instead of a perfect immune system in development?

Then why he locks up all in disobedience?

So we'll never want to enter into our self-made prison ever again.  God wanting to give his best, knows when to lock us up in a place so we'll never enter into it again, knowing what it is like.

God doesn't want us to straddle the fence between World and God, passing back and forth between the two, so he might just lock the gate between World and God, and let us be stuck in World for a little while, so we'll come running back to God and not straddle the fence any more.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If God was planning to give Job a some candy that day and because of satan He doesn't because so major testing started that day; then satan changed Father's mind. And because Father doesn't change His mind it must have been His plan...

We also could consider that God changing his mind is not God changing, if God changes his mind and still has retained his character then he has not changed.

[Lefein]

<edited my above post- forgot to add a large portion of it>

[jabcat]

Paul, I will address your request a little later.  Thanks.