The Problem of Evil

[Molly]

@TTank,
It's apparent that you you either do not read the Holy Scripture or believe it.
Why is it so necessary for you to be among and argue with those that do?

You know I read scripture. But I do not take a dogmatic approach to certain ones, but reason and meditate as to their meaning while looking upon the world and its current condition, saying God is in control over everything might bring solace to some christians but it is of little comfort and even an insult to people of this world who suffer hideous crimes in this present age.

No christian can really explain why millions suffer needlessly if God truly was in control of all things, but when you put things in context, clearly that is a scripture of faith for the church to wage war against evil. For we have been given power and responsibility by God to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth. The evil does not want us to know this but instead wants us to go around in darkness content believing that this is Gods will.

Many people will say to Christ on that day, lord we did not help these poor folk, because it is your will that they suffer.
So you thought I was hard hearted, even though my word says I came to give life and life abundantly.

God is poweful don't get me wrong, but in this present age, he has limited power based on what people do. I won't state that statment with 100 conviction because I don't want to limit God, but what I do know is that God's will is life, peace, abundance and currently many people suffer disease and lack and die of starvation despite praying to God for provision, there is a contradiction between what Gods will is and the current condition of humanity. My position is that this truth can bring people out of bondage from frustration and realize why are there kids starving and dying of aids, when God is a God of love and All power.

From my limited understanding I am willing to say im sorry but I do not find that God is in control of everything in this present age and perhaps when the church wakes up form her slumber, realizes that she has been given great authority to do the exact things that the world desires God to do and that is to do the works commanded by Christ. But the church sleeps and either thinks evil is Gods will or believes that God will help the outcast, but God commanded the church to be his representative upon the earth in order for heaven to come to earth. I want heaven to come to earth, do you? Or do you prefer things to be as they are  :dontknow:

I agree with you, TT.

We know that--

Satan is god of this age. 

Jesus referred to the light being present while he walked on the earth.

Now we are the light in his absence.

We are the servants left behind when the owner of the house went off to a far place.

We are born out of due time, the firstfuit company; our age is the next one. 

We are to use whatever talents we have to represent him until he returns.

Towards that end, he has given us the comforter, the Holy Spirit.

This age is called this evil age.  And, we are given a job to do on behalf of Christ.

We are now the light of the world.

[jabcat]

Mod Note - This is a part of something I posted in the Mod Section.


Disagreement's fine, and not the point.  It's how it's done.  Personal insults, snarky comments repeatedly etc., is the point.  And how that escalates to food fights.  Gary doesn't want that, and if he doesn't have assurance the boards are being a good witness, I wouldn't bet on its survival at some point.

Bottom line, flaming/baiting is at issue.  Embarrassing, insulting, namecalling lead to dischord and strife.  It is very possible to see things differently and disagree without acting like jerks.

I've been thinking about this current season we're in on the boards.  I've realized that we're actually locked into a struggle over free will and sovereignty, AT THIS POINT EVEN WITHOUT USING THOSE TERMS - but we've got locked horns just the same.  I'm wondering at what point allowing/encouraging that to continue is usefull.  Most of the time those things can be discussed in passing, and as long as those hot button terms aren't used, we eventually move on, no harm no foul.  But I'm really questioning the continued focus on this as is now the case.  I don't know if anybody's really learned much, it's a highly charged topic - I believe because it revolves around "control issues" - both God's and ours personally - and it appears to be an invitation for strife.

Actually, I feel I may have missed the Lord's leading by re-opening the thing.  I didn't want to lock something down that most could discuss without strife, rather than moderate the select individuals causing problems - but looking at the bigger picture, again, we're just arguing sovereignty/free will by other names at this point, IMO.

I AM NOT ASKING FOR FEEDBACK OR CRITICISM ON MODERATION.  That's been decided and will be as noted the past couple of days. 

The question is, what does the body think about this issue in terms of where we are as the ecclesia; what are we accomplishing, what's each of our purpose(s) here, how do you see the observations I've made above?  And again, moderation is at issue ONLY IN TERMS OF FEEDBACK ON THE USEFULNESS OF SUCH DISCUSSION - AT SOME POINT - SUCH AS NOW.

So I'm opening this piece of the discussion up for some feedback, we'll gather some insight, and the mods will discuss further and make decisions about where we go from here.  Thought some public discourse might be helpful. 

Thanks, James.

[Beloved Servant]

I've been a member for some time now and it is obvious that not all who visit here are of the brethren.
Moderation is necessary to tend the garden.

[Molly]

I think that it is once again a question of not paying attention to the ages.

There are different ages, and they serve different purposes, and if one ignores that then it sounds like they are arguing with those who don't ignore it--but actually they are just looking at different ages.

The same thing applies to ET--if you ignore the ages, then aionian punishment means forever.

The Bible tells us we are in an evil age now.

I do not see it as God doing the evil, but he is allowing it.


Galatians 1:4
who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

[micah7:9]

The present evil age has been around for quite awhile, and I believe it will continue utill His time, until those called are aroused to their truth. Jesus came to establish a kingdom it seems to me that all we have done is depend and lean on His Word, which is good, yet when will I begin to believe that He is in His/this body and the works that He did, His body will do more of. We seem to be walking in the world of man and not in the world that He birthed us into. We dont believe, I can accept that can you?

[Beloved Servant]

He is still waking up some sleepers.

[micah7:9]

He is still waking up some sleepers.

And I beleive there are many sleepers

[Molly]

Again, some have been called and chosen to come out of this evil age--to be in the world, not of it.  That means we are not to be tainted by the world even though we are fully engaged in it.  Jesus prayed not to take us out of the world but to deliver us from evil.

Those who ignore that this is an age related phenomenon either become Calvinists or drop out of the world altogether.



Luke 11:33
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

[micah7:9]

Again, some have been called and chosen to come out of this evil age--to be in the world, not of it.  That means we are not to be tainted by the world even though we are fully engaged in it.  Jesus prayed not to take us out of the world but to deliver us from evil.

Those who ignore that this is an age related phenomenon either become Calvinists or drop out of the world altogether.



Luke 11:33
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

A good many have come out and there are more with ears to hear, And they are not in the least worried about the news of day and all it politics.

[Cardinal]

He is still waking up some sleepers.

:cloud9: It can be no other way, He put all of us to "sleep" in the first place..... :thumbsup:

[Molly]

A good many have come out and there are more with ears to hear, And they are not in the least worried about the news of day and all it politics.

Hopefully, we all fully do what God has appointed us to do.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[Beloved Servant]

He is still waking up some sleepers.

:cloud9: It can be no other way, He put all of us to "sleep" in the first place..... :thumbsup:

Sadly, many talk in their sleep!

[Lefein]

Who are these who are yet asleep and not of the brethren?

[Beloved Servant]

That was two different posts and references.

[Lefein]

It was a simple question.  Nevermind...

[Beloved Servant]

No, it was not.
You mixed the two into one strange question.

[Lefein]

Shifting back to picking 'topical' fruit...

I believe I had a revelation concerning "Judgement".

One man shoplifts, he gets an earthquake in his spirit, a common judgement for that (common) sin.

If every man in a town is stealing from each other and does so constantly, they get an earthquake in their town, a common judgement applied "wholesale".

I would like for us to discuss this, in a positive attitude please.  What do you guys think of this in terms of God's pattern of judgement?

[Beloved Servant]

I would like for us to discuss this, in a positive attitude please. 

You see Lefein,
This is where you offend without, perhaps, even realizing it.

[Lefein]

Positive attitude doubly requested, and with twice the please.  I want to discuss the topic, not your problems with me, of which I care very little about at all, especially since the moderators have spoken and said "stop it", several times already.  So here's a thought - take it to my PM box if you want to fight, or argue, or what ever.  I have ample room in it for anything you'd like to say.

[Beloved Servant]

Do you not even know what you write?

You are implying that those other than yourself have a negative attitude — and that's offensive Lefein!

...and now you ask to double it.

[Lefein]

I have a PM box, it is open, have fun.  This is not the place that we're going to discuss this matter any further, if I so choose to even discuss it.

If you insist on it, you're in the moderator's hands.  I'm washing my hands of this, and I am done with this conversation.  God willing...

[shawn]

Taking offense is a luxury which stronger men than myself may endulge.  When our egos cause us to miss the bigger picture it's time to reevaluate our motives for debate.   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

As the original poster of the topic; I'd prefer that it remained closed.  And publicly request it please.

I vote to keep it open because nobody is forced to read/participate.

[WhiteWings]

Lets not forget the translation based on the other possible definitions that says also; Cutting down darkness, and cutting down evil.

Forming light, and cutting down darkness, making peace, and cutting down evil, I Yahweh, am doing all these things.

I just checked ISA2 and I think it's impossible to translate the verse as you have suggested above.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf

one-forming and·one-creating darkness one-makingdo well-being and·one-creating evil I Yahweh one-makingdo all-of these

Note #1: The use of forming and creating is interesting.
Note #2: Even if you translate this verse the way you suggested a lot of problems like the verse in post #471 remain.

[jabcat]

Amos 3:6  ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13  .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16  Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16  .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17  O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 18:11  Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
Job 2:10  .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15  .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22  And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25  He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4  Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21  Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
2 Samuel 12:11  Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
1 Samuel 15:2-3  So says Jehovah of Hosts, ....  go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Thessalonians 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;"Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

bump

Also Tony, would you please bump your nde post?  I couldn't find it.  Thanks.