The Problem of Evil

[jabcat]

I must be missing your point as it relates to my post, or maybe you're asking something I don't know the answer to.

[jabcat]

Side note - this is a VERY interesting topic, especially when it's being discussed as is - respectfully, with consideration for each other.   :thumbsup:

I read the passage in I Cor.? this morning about being of like mind, dwelling in unity...and I thought of this discussion.  Maybe even though we see many things differently within the scriptures (we're all being processed and brought to maturity) we can still meet the "unity requirement" by discussing and even disagreeing, without being nasty or disagreeable.  Just a thought...not to sidetrack from the discussion.   :bigGrin:

[Molly]

" 'Listen to the Lord's message, all of you people of Judah. You always come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 The God of Israel is speaking to you. He is the Lord who rules over all. He says, "Change the way you live and act. Then I will let you live in this place.

4 " ' "Do not trust in lies. Do not say, 'This is the temple of the Lord! This is the temple of the Lord! This is the temple of the Lord!'

5 " ' "You must really change the way you live and act. Treat each other fairly. 6 Do not treat outsiders or widows badly in this place. Do not take advantage of children whose fathers have died. Do not kill those who are not guilty of doing anything wrong. Do not worship other gods. That will only bring harm to you.

7 " ' "If you obey me, I will let you live in this place. It is the land I gave your people who lived long ago. It was promised to them for ever and ever.

8 " ' "But look! You are trusting in worthless lies.

9 " ' "You continue to steal and commit murder. You commit adultery and tell lies. You burn incense to Baal. You worship other gods you have not known anything about before.

10 " ' "Then you come and stand in front of me. You keep coming to this house where I have put my Name. You say, 'We are safe.' You think you are safe when you do so many things I hate. 11 My Name is in this house. But you have made it a den for robbers! I have been watching you!" announces the Lord.

12 " ' "Go now to the town of Shiloh. Go to the place where I first made a home for my Name. See what I did to it because of the evil things my people Israel were doing.

13 " ' "I spoke to you again and again," announces the Lord. "I warned you while you were doing all of those things. But you did not listen. I called out to you. But you did not answer. 14 So what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house where my Name is. It is the temple you trust in. It is the place I gave to you and your people of long ago.

15 " ' "But I will throw you out of my land. That is exactly what I did to the people of Ephraim. And they are your relatives." '

16 "Jeremiah, do not pray for those people. Do not make any appeal or request for them. Do not beg me. I will not listen to you.

17 "Don't you see what they are doing? They are worshiping other gods in the towns of Judah. They are offering sacrifices to them in the streets of Jerusalem. 18 The children go out and gather wood. The fathers light the fire. The women mix the dough. They make flat cakes of bread for the goddess who is called the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods. That makes me very angry.

19 "But am I the one they are hurting?" announces the Lord. "Aren't they only harming themselves? They should be ashamed of it."

20 So the Lord and King says, "I will pour out my burning anger on this place. It will strike people and animals alike. It will destroy the trees and the crops in the fields. It will burn, and no one will be able to put it out."

21 The Lord who rules over all is the God of Israel. He says, "Go ahead! Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices. Eat the meat yourselves! 22 When I brought your people out of Egypt, I spoke to them. But I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 I also gave them another command. I said, 'Obey me. Then I will be your God. And you will be my people. Live the way I command you to live. Then things will go well with you.'

24 "But they did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. Instead, they did what their stubborn and evil hearts wanted them to do. They went backward and not forward.

25 "Again and again I sent my servants the prophets to you. They came to you day after day. They prophesied from the time your people left Egypt until now.

26 "But the people did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. They were stubborn. They did more evil things than their people who lived before them.

27 "Jeremiah, when you tell them all of that, they will not listen to you. When you call out to them, they will not answer.

28 "So say to them, 'You are a nation that has not obeyed the Lord your God. You did not pay attention when you were corrected. Truth has died out. You do not tell the truth anymore.' "

29 The Lord says to the people of Jerusalem, "Cut off your hair. Throw it away. Sing a song of sadness on the bare hilltops. I am very angry with you. I have turned my back on you. I have deserted you.

The Valley of Death
30 "The people of Judah have done what is evil in my eyes," announces the Lord. "They have set up statues of their gods. They have worshiped them in the house where my Name is. They have made my house 'unclean.' I hate those statues. 31 The people have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. There they worship other gods. And there they sacrifice their children in the fire. That is something I did not command. It did not even enter my mind.
32 "So watch out!" announces the Lord. "The days are coming when people will not call it Topheth anymore. And they will not call it the Valley of Ben Hinnom either. Instead, they will call it the Valley of Death. They will bury the dead bodies of some people in Topheth. But they will run out of room. 33 Then they will not be able to bury the bodies of other people there. So the bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the wild animals. And no one will scare them away.

34 "I will put an end to the sounds of joy and gladness. The voices of brides and grooms will not be heard anymore. There will not be any sounds of joy in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem. The land will become a desert.

--Jer 7

[willieH]

You mock even my blessings toward a dear sister   [edited]

I did not mock Molly whatsoever... I love her as a sister in CHRIST...  :HeartThrob:

She and I have many agreements and/or disagreements over YEARS of interaction... and I hold much respect toward her  :boyheart:

I just pointed out that in "seeing", she was not observing what was stated in the WORD... that is all...

And as far as "mocking" goes... you are hardly one to talk... :rolleye:

Just review MOST of your words toward me... As I said, you would do well to give EAR to your own advice at times...  :JCThink:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Molly]

I must be missing your point as it relates to my post, or maybe you're asking something I don't know the answer to.

God is very angry in this passage.  His people are doing something that makes his skin crawl, for lack of a better phrase.  It is such an abomination to him that it cannot even enter his heart.

Now you don't get angry with a puppet.  You don't get angry when a small child does something that they are too young to understand [or you shouldn't].  You get angry when people who should know better do abominable things over and over that set your teeth on edge.

If it were me, I would just wipe them off the face of the earth.  He considers this himself a few times, and does it once.  Where he gets the patience is beyond me.


5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

--Gen 6

[jabcat]

Thanks Mol for the input.  "repented" in that verse also has a possible translation along the lines of "sorrow", or "having sadness" (from memory, not looking it up right now.  I'm at work, can't you tell?   :laughing7:.  I am having to run off from time to time).  I for one don't think God "experiments" or tries and fails so has to re-do.

Seems to me the scriptures about YHWH sending the lying spirit are important in understanding.

One thought I have on that, along with the passages you posted is, of course God wants people to believe the truth - when it's their time and within His will for them to do so.  (I recall Jesus hiding the truth from the masses, speaking to them so they wouldn't understand and turn - for that time being - at least that's my current understanding.  Also, "it's the glory of God to conceal a matter").  So Him commanding certain people to believe and have the truth [I believe He even has to give the faith to believe (Eph. 2:8] while using other vessels of dishonor for a period (even for punishment/discipline?) to work a greater purpose, IMO, don't necessarily conflict with each other. 

Maybe I'm wrong.  I'm exploring and seeking.   

[Molly]

for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's sorry he created man.  Yes he's expressing sadness.  The interesting thing about God is that he shares a lot of our emotions about things.  He's not, ho hum these people are doing exactly what I programmed them to do--everything's going according to plan.  He's angry, and sad, and disappointed, in this passage and in the other one.

"repenteth"

H5162
נחם
nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one's self], repent (-er, -ing, self).


The lying spirit --God is bringing judgment on the king.  That's all that's about.  So all his 400 prophets tell the king lies, and the one who tells the truth he puts in jail.  Nice guy.  lol

[jabcat]

Good post.   :thumbsup:  I like your point about God's emotions.  That's important, IMO.  I personally need to know that He weeps with us, not just stands back and watches.  He came here and "did this".  Praise Him.

As far as the last part, I don't disagree with you.  But aren't you saying, yes, God sent that lying spirit just like the scriptures say He did?  Or am I misunderstanding?

If He did, and I believe the Bible says He did, then my point is, I believe there's more to the story than what much of orthodoxy teaches, including things I've understood/misunderstood along the way -and if so, then what are the details of that "story" and what does it mean?

It means for me, bottom line, that God is only good and perfect.  Then we get into definitions and interpretations...

[Molly]

Did God actually send a lying spirit to the prophets of the king or is Michaiah being sarcastic with the king when he says that?  :dontknow:

There is a lot of sarcasm coming from Michaiah, who starts off the conversation with oh sure king you will be victorious. :mblush:

So I don't really know [yet] whether Michaiah is actually relating a vision he saw or whether he is continuing with the sarcasm.

What he finally does tell the king is, all your prophets are lying to you and the truth is that this war will go badly for you.

And the king says, see?  He never has anything good to say about me.  Put him in jail.  So the king was never really interested in the truth from God to begin with.  He had already made up his own mind what he was going to do.  And, the prophets that lied to him were better off than the one who told the truth.

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:    :scratchhead:

[reFORMer]

Maybe Michaiah knew what Paul said:

2Ti 2:4 (KJV)     No man 3762 that warreth 4754 entangleth himself 1707 with the affairs 4230 of [this] life 979; that 2443 he may please 700 him who hath chosen him to be a soldier 4758 .

This teaches me I should keep out of politics to please God Whom I represent.

It appears that by this time "The School of the Prophets" had some sort of inside track with the king, enough so that all but one was displeasing to God.

[Cardinal]

There is only ONE ETERNITY -- and men travel FROM eternity... TO the FAR COUNTRY [time]... returning to ETERNITY... Luke 15:11-12 (eternity) ------> Luke 15:13-18 (time) -----> Luke 15:20-32 (eternity)

...willieH  :laughing7:

:cloud9: wow

[CHB]

You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?

Paul, sorry it took me so long to get back to this question you ask. I had an appointment and had to leave for a while.

You ask if I thought it was a possibility that God could give me the desire to...murder, rape and so forth, can't remember the exact act you mentioned....Yes, it could be a possibility if God so desired but I do not believe he will simply because I have died with Christ and am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. I believe all things are possible with God but I know he is merciful, just, good, and he has chosen me from the foundation of the world.

So, what do you think?

CHB   

[Lefein]

I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.

it also sounds like applied calvinism...

[Paul Hazelwood]

You may not have that desire now, but based on what you believe. do you see it as a possibility that God can give you that desire in the future if he so desires?

Paul, sorry it took me so long to get back to this question you ask. I had an appointment and had to leave for a while.

You ask if I thought it was a possibility that God could give me the desire to...murder, rape and so forth, can't remember the exact act you mentioned....Yes, it could be a possibility if God so desired but I do not believe he will simply because I have died with Christ and am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. I believe all things are possible with God but I know he is merciful, just, good, and he has chosen me from the foundation of the world.

So, what do you think?

CHB

I don't believe it is a possibility in that regaurd, if it truly is,  your belief that he won't and your belief of being chosen is irrelevant.   After all, if you have no control, then you have no control.

[CHB]

I know it isn't addressed to me; but it sounds like God playing favourites in my opinion.

it also sounds like applied calvinism...

Does what I said not apply to you also?

CHB

[Lefein]

I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice.  So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.

However, in playing along;

I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse.  You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured.  I'm one of God's worst sons.  My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect.  I am a chief amongst sinners.

Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts.  He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.

[CHB]

I personally don't believe God gives man evil desires, nor do I believe God removes autonomy from man's choice.  So...not really, as far as I in my limited understanding know of God.

However, in playing along;

I've murdered, raped, stolen, and worse.  You'd be surprised at how many people I've slaughtered, and tortured.  I'm one of God's worst sons.  My heart, and my imaginations, and my thoughts - have been far from perfect.  I am a chief amongst sinners.

Yet, God did not give me these desires to kill, to take to bed, neither did he empower me to act upon these heart-thoughts.  He has burned them out of me and is still burning them out.

Same here.  Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?

CHB

[reFORMer]

Do you know molly why is he called son of the morning star?

because Jesus is refered to as the morning star in the book of revelation. But also the same book mentions that as a reward a saint will have a morning star.

"The Morning Star" is the planet we call Venus.   Ishtar was the same name of the book in the Bible:  Esther.  This was the pagan name given to Haddasah.

[Lefein]

Same here.  Why isn't he burning these things out of everyone? Does he have favorites, as you said?

He does if he is giving other men the desire to do wickedness...and yet, not you.  "Merely" because Christ sits at the right hand, and you are in him (not that Christ isn't important, he certainly is).

Hence, I used the term Applied Calvinism.

The idea that God invented vessels of honour, and vessels of dishonour, or rather the interpretation of what these vessels are - this interpretation that says God makes one person a living saint who can do no wrong, and the other a Mao Zedong is...well it is the same as Calvinism that says that God makes some people to go to Heaven, and the rest to burn forever in a very, very, very hot place of torture.  Sin hurts the sinner, and so for God to make one person have a life of bliss, while the other (the vessel of dishonour) live a life that may as well be called Hell on Earth due to the self inflicted masochism of sin - is just another manifestation of Calvinism.

Any form of Calvinism makes God a respecter of persons, which is clearly against the scriptures.  So I can only say; No, God does not have favourites.  But I do believe, hard as it may seem, that he is indeed burning these things out of everyone (they just don't know it, reaping and sowing is also a form of God's all consuming fire), but I don't believe that the verse that talks about vessels of honour, and dishonour are about sinning, and I don't think God gives a man his wicked desires, just so he must burn them out of him as if it were all the man's fault.

[jabcat]

I'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein.   :laughing7:

Ah well, life sure is an interesting ride!     :high5:

[CHB]

Doesn't it say of the SAME LUMP he makes vessels of honor and dishonor?

But I do believe, hard as it may seem, that he is indeed burning these things out of everyone (they just don't know it,

I agree with this.  I believe this is done in their own time periods. Not everyone is being "burnt out" so to speak at the same time. That's why I said I am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father and I was predestined to be there before the foundation of the world, So is everyone else, just not at the same time.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

"Merely" because Christ sits at the right hand, and you are in him (not that Christ isn't important, he certainly is).

just shocking.

[CHB]

I'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein.   :laughing7:

Ah well, life sure is an interesting ride!     :high5:

Oops, didn't see your post jabcat until after I had posted.

[Lefein]

I'm guessing you probably don't want to borrow the last line in my signature then friend Lefein.

I think my point was missed.

God isn't bound by our ideas of schedule.  In his due time he will certainly purify man by trial, and tribulation - whether the consuming flame is in this life, or the next.

But all men are convicted by the fire of their conscience, which the Lord put in them. "judge what is right for yourselves" to do that would require the capacity to judge rightly, or wrongly - what we call conscience.

However, if we decide to ignore the conscience, and become hard to it...certainly after God's due time, we find ourselves not ignoring the bigger fire.

Everyone has a candle inside them that burns always - hence everyone is being burned at the same time.

But then there is the firestorm...should the candle prove to be put under a bushel.

Doesn't it say of the SAME LUMP he makes vessels of honor and dishonor?

Notice though that none of us have been set in the last firing, none of us have yet to be completed in the kiln.

And consider this; the same lump...Who is to say that is not a single individual?  We all experience times of honour in the Lord's service, and times of dishonour in the Lord's service.

I agree with this.  I believe this is done in their own time periods. Not everyone is being "burnt out" so to speak at the same time. That's why I said I am now sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father and I was predestined to be there before the foundation of the world, So is everyone else, just not at the same time.

I believe that there is more to the fire of God, than one.  You might be predestined, but everyone walks, lives, works, eats, and even uses the toilet in the presence of God - who is an all consuming fire.

All have the candle, some stand on the shore before a fiery hurricane, others sail upon the molten sea of his purification.  But all are in the midst of fire, his burning atmosphere the righteous air, yet the weather patterns of God's cleansing atmosphere are at his command to bring now, or then.

just shocking.

Pick up your stones, and walk away.  I'll be genuine before my Father, before I stand a pretending liar in what I have to say.  The Father loves my true heart, and I have not blasphemed here.

Not even Christ shall be used as a means to call God a father who plays favourites.  God respects no man above another, not even if that man is in his very own son.