The Problem of Evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well.  Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.

It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense.  The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.

To me the key is to use scripture,  you only find the forbidden term in question in "some" translations, but the term is not necessary to make a scriptural point, I have done it many times.

[jabcat]

I disagree that either side is silenced.  I think that is incorrect.  The request is SPECIFIC to SPECIFIC terms. 

If you have further issues regarding moderation, plz go to PM.  Public criticism of moderation is not allowed.  Thanks.

[jabcat]

If I may ask also Jabcat in all fairness; since the use of this forbidden word and topic is now being moderated, I'd like the other side of the aisle to be forbidden from mentioning their theology as well.  Terms such as "Ordained all things", "Predestined/Predestination" and similar phrases.

It would not be fair if say, Arminianism was a bannable subject, while Calvinism was left to run wild and free without a similar check, if that makes sense.  The same should go with "forbidden subject" and the antithesis to it.

To me the key is to use scripture,  you only find the forbidden term in question in "some" translations, but the term is not necessary to make a scriptural point, I have done it many times.

:thumbsup:

[Lefein]

I wasn't criticising...Yet so be it, if I see anything that even hints at "No freewill" I will report it and hopefully expect a fair result.

[micah7:9]

When I state that God cannot lie,  it can be percieved that as a limitation,  but I see it as a supreme strength.

Agreed.  He is truth.  The truth cannot lie.

For which reason we can trust him.

A question though is, does God use tools to perform His purpose?  Did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I wasn't criticising...Yet so be it, if I see anything that even hints at "No freewill" I will report it and hopefully expect a fair result.

Lefein, my suggestion is, that you refocus.  Go back and count how many times over the past weeks the term "free will" has been allowed to stay on the boards, just out of an attempt to not "pick" too much.  Whereas, SOVEREIGN is not ONE TIME, that I'm aware of, in a post over that same period of time.

Believe me, we can get MUCH pickier if you like, but I'd suggest you may want to reconsider pushing things there.   :2c:

[micah7:9]

Pictures speak a thousand words, and so I must wonder...

Did God invent this?

Graphic, Do-Not-Look if you are sensitive.  I MEAN it.  I cannot stress it enough.

http://www.asianoffbeat.com/photos/child-abuse-cases-enrage-chinese-public_4793.jpg
http://thetruthwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Abortion-Roe-v-Wade.jpg

Would it be better for God to tie a millstone around his neck, and be cast into the sea?  Than to have offended the little ones he himself knit together in their mother's womb?

No He did not invent it.

[thinktank]

If the topic of freedom is outright banned then we cannot discuss much at all. But if it just means using different words I can comply to that, it takes getting used to, sorry Jabcat I just find the concept rather bizzare, ......maybe the reason its banned is because people have heard certain pastors use certain terms and associate particular teachings with those words and so if one uses the word for other things other teachings, people get confused and angry  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

If the topic of freedom is outright banned then we cannot discuss much at all. But if it just means using different words I can comply to that, it takes getting used to, sorry Jabcat I just find the concept rather bizzare, ......maybe the reason its banned is because people have heard certain pastors use certain terms and associate particular teachings with those words and so if one uses the word for other things other teachings, people get confused and angry  :dontknow:

Bingo!   :bigGrin:  It's spelled out in the guidelines.  Thanks, apology accepted.   :reachout:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Molly, is it possible God uses evil tools to accomplish His good and better purposes?  For example, did He send a lying spirit as He said He did?

This can be a question as much to me so I will answer it. 

First and foremost I will directly answer and say no.   I think we can use scripture conveniently in the literal text from any point of view.   If I quote Matthew 25:46 I will certainly be told that I cannot accept that scripture as I find it in the translation I use it from.  So a reference to God sending a lying spirit as well does not have to remain confined to the literal wording that it is asserted with.

If one of Gods tools was to create a law that holds us accountable for what "WE" do then Gods moral character of righteousness remains intact.   It can then be asserted that God knew I would want to lie so he allows that spirit to manifest because I have the abiity to lie from the nature oif my own will as I choose to lie I am going to reap what I sow and if I neve restrain myself from lying and come to even enjoy it,  then true belief in not only my own lies but others lies can manifest.

What is not often heard is that the Law of reaping what we sow is how God can maintain his sovereignty and not be outdone by mans will and the choices he makes from it.

[WhiteWings]

It seems that the creation of free will was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them free will.

I think free will or not is not relavant in this thread because IF we have free will then the free and ultimate will of God surely will overrule ours.
Neither do I think we have the best possible existance. Happyness is always the best possible existance.
Happyness is still happyness if it's totally fake. (See the Matrix movies)
We are promissed a better life. That means God knows for sure this life is not the best possible life. Best as in most happy.
So imo we are here for a reason. Just like in the boring schooldays. We all know a math teacher is someone who talks in your sleep. But still we learned thing to get a better life later on. Education=$
If we look at the story of Job we see that God was very pleased with Job. And still God tested Job with illness.
Ok satan did the job to Job. But only by permission of God. Are Father and satan working as a team?.....
Are those tests just tests? Calimities perhaps? Or evil?
I know Joseph Mengle liked to do some scientific tests. Most people call him evil.

Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?

[jabcat]

So to me Paul, I think it's important to go back to the original languages.  I can do that and find actual scriptural explanations for the Matthew verse. 

I don't have time now, but I'll try to look at the hebrew later re: the "lying spirit" verse.  I'll see if that's indeed a consistent, accurate rendering.

[thinktank]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?   No, and so what?  lol.

A challenging statment that would challenge God himself. I don't think its been thought through properly.

God can do the impossible, create a rock so large that even God can lift it

But if God can lift it then he cannot do the impossible, he cannot create a rock big enough to challenge God to lift it

[Paul Hazelwood]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?   No, and so what?  lol.

A challenging statment that would challenge God himself. I don't think its been thought through properly.

God can do the impossible, create a rock so large that even God can lift it

But if God can lift it then he cannot do the impossible, he cannot create a rock big enough to challenge God to lift it

The premise that this question get asked most often towards is in my opinion flawed.   We can say God is all powerful and ask a much more poinant question.   Can God lie?   If God cannot lie then how is God all powerful?   

The premise is contradicted by scripture in the first place.   If God cannot create a rock so big that he cannot lift it,  the premise that I take is a truth that the questions answer becomes insignificant.

What difference does it make that God cannot do that with a rock?  None at all.

[thinktank]

It seems that the creation of free will was a bold experiment of God, but he wanted to give his creatures the best possible existence and that can only be so by giving them free will.

I think free will or not is not relavant in this thread because IF we have free will then the free and ultimate will of God surely will overrule ours.
Neither do I think we have the best possible existance. Happyness is always the best possible existance.
Happyness is still happyness if it's totally fake. (See the Matrix movies)
We are promissed a better life. That means God knows for sure this life is not the best possible life. Best as in most happy.
So imo we are here for a reason. Just like in the boring schooldays. We all know a math teacher is someone who talks in your sleep. But still we learned thing to get a better life later on. Education=$
If we look at the story of Job we see that God was very pleased with Job. And still God tested Job with illness.
Ok satan did the job to Job. But only by permission of God. Are Father and satan working as a team?.....
Are those tests just tests? Calimities perhaps? Or evil?
I know Joseph Mengle liked to do some scientific tests. Most people call him evil.

Not wanting to take this thread off-topic so just as a side note.....
I've read many NDEs. I don't trust them all. Anyway there are NDEs that are relavant to this discussion.
Some people in an NDE "saw the white light" or "heard the voice" or "just knew" they returned to earth and somehow knew they are here with a mission. They were sent back because they didn't complete that mission.
One NDE was less vague.
A man with a special type of brain tumor had an NDE. He watched himself before he was born. He saw himself standing in a 'classroom' and angel/evolved spiiritual being was reading things from a list. The angel mentioned the medical name for his brain tumor and the man said "I take it".
Then he was sent back to earth. His mission was to carry his illness with dignity.
There were even 'people' that opted to be stillborns.
There is much more but my thought is this: Is it possible that the evil of God is nothing more or less than enforcing the agreements made before birth?

Now I see that free will does cause confusion. My idea of free will is not the same as yours, so for clarifacation when I mean free will I mean freedom of choice, not freedom to be God.

Adam and Eve could have been happy in the garden by choosing the tree of life instead of the tree of Good and evil, they would have lived for thousands of years enjoying the peace of the garden. But that was not enough for Adam and Eve, they wanted more than to be happy, they wanted to be wise, as God, this is often the case today. People have oppportuities every day to be happy, but they choose to be miserable and often in an effort to maintain their misery deny they even had an opportunity to be happy, in order to reinforce their own misery.

If happyness is fake, it does not satisfy. Alcaholics and drug addicts often live life of fake happiness, but deep down they are very unhappy. Also people often pretend to be happy in life but feel that something is missing and often end up doing things, which are seen are seen as miserable horrible life such as missionary work, that appears to be bad, but for the individual lconcerned brings them true happiness and contentment.

God and the devil don't work as a team, simply that they both know that God is higher in authority. They are on the opposites sides of morality. One is love the other is selfishness.

They are not ying and yang for ying and yang are complimentary and exist for eternity. The devil is temporary and so is evil, for this reason the son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Future creations will not have to go through death like we have, if God created evil though it means future creations will have to go through evil, for that knowledge is still in existence if God does not destroy it.


Nde is challenging, it means  we were in heaven or reincarnate on this earth plane over again for different experiences to overcome. If this is true it does not change anything, other than some spirit beings might want to experience this temporary darkness and overcome it with love, a challenge... if you like, for these beings, but it does not mean that God created evil, simply they are taking advantage of this fallen state while it is availalble in this temporary drip, drop of eternity, maybe they are testing to see how far Love can really go. But who these beings are and how this process works is a different story.

[Molly]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

[Lefein]

God bless you from olam, to olam, and beyond Molly.  :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

The person who practices sin belongs to the evil one, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason that the Son of God was revealed was to destroy what the devil has been doing.

1 john 3,8


john 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies


How can God be in all things and create all things, when he states the above verses.

How can God who is truth create a being whos very language is a lie?

There seems to be a misunderstanding about when God created all things he means every single detailed event.

It seems to be that God is the creator but not the abuser. God created angels, but it is they who have abused that creation for their own desires and have not loved as God does.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :Sparkletooth:

I wonder why it is you continue to address my posts on Tentmaker?  Do you not KNOW by now, that you shall not waver my position in the slightest?  And that you shall only get the same replies to the same questions?  :faint:

I don't have a problem with your beliefs... they do not faze me even in the smallest way.  I have already stepped on the stones you walk upon at present, brother... and moved on.  :dontknow:

That said...  :heat:

That this awful event takes place in YHVH's creation... and that He does not intervene to disallow its occurance, means that it is HIS INTENTION that it be REVEALED as a portion of EVIL which is (in His ETERNAL essence), KNOWN to Him...  For all events of humanity were KNOWN and DECLARED -- BY HIM -- before they took place in time -- Isaiah 46:10

Applied Calvinism.  And what of God not commanding his children to sacrifice their own babies?

FIRST --- The entirety of the history of this planet was DECLARED by YHVH before it occured.  You are welcome to deny that a DIVINE DECLARATION is exactly what will occur (prophetic notation)... that is your affair.

SECOND --- Concerning "applied Calvinism" ---  :Yeahright: -- labels are given by those who are insecure in what they believe, and a weak endeavor to degrade another by their usage.  The "I know you are but what am I", approach...  :laughing7:

THIRD --- There are many things which GOD "commands" and which avail DISOBEDIENCE of them... This is the process of the REVELATION of the EVIL side of the KNOWLEDGE contained in the TREE...  surprised you haven't noticed this by now!  :mshock:

AV Lv 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.

AV Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It says that GOD did not COMMAND them -- And I have not implied that He "commanded" them...

Also, ...though it does not appear in this Scripture, the PROPHECY of their DISOBEDIENCE was part of -- Isaiah 46:10 -- being PART of the reverse trailing of that which was noted END to BEGINNING, ...God did DECLARE beforehand that within retracing of that DECLARATION -- that which would take place (manifest) BEGINNING to END, ...that these (noted in this Scripture) would DISOBEY... and that He had COMMANDED them NOT. 

It really is not as hard as you in your own little (unrevealed and) complicated way, try to make it, Lefein.

Neither did He "CAUSE" Judah to sin... Judah "chose" according to the prior DECLARATION of YHVH which had LONG BEFORE made notation of those choices (which indeed, they actually [in missing the mark], made ...according to the COMPLETE ACCURACY of the DECLARATION which preceeded those "choices" that were made)...

"Rape"... it is a PART of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL... without "rape" occuring in this scenario... then an element of EVIL would remain UNREVEALED and the "knowledge" would be INCOMPLETE...

Knowledge of evil and good is not what brings salvation - that is an Eastern Religious idea; one that is expressed by saying that one must be reincarnated over, and over again until he has experienced it all, and has obtained enlightenment.

Knowledge of God alone is required for salvation, and completeness.

Salvation is a BY product of necessity due to the manifest PURPOSE of YHVH God (which you are seemingly yet to recognize).

No offense intended toward you, ...but I think the biggest hurdle for you dear brother, is that you are UNREVEALED as to the fact that this WORLD was not created, so that GOD could "save" His Children... because He had "MISTAKENLY" handed them their course to choose as they did, and therefore He was compelled to COMPENSATE by reacting to THEM and THEIR "choices"! 

:omg: Please!  ...You  would have the POTTER having to respond to the CLAY and the doings of DIRT, rather than the CLAY responding to its MAKER!  Scripture speaks quite LOUDLY about this type of foolish thinking -- Rom 9:20-21 -- Yet you shall shut your eyes and ears from seeing and hearing what is STATED in the WORD on this issue.

The POTTER --- MAKES -- both ...the vessels of HONOR and DISHONOR, Lefein! -- Rom 9:21

This WORLD was created to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL as contained in the HEART and WORD of YHVH... and necessitated the recovery (salvation) of His Children as part of the PROCESS of that REVELATION,  ...which would be intimate and living parts of the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil...

Until you come to realize this, you shall poke around in the spiritual dark, concerning peripheral issues to that realization...

It is God who completes, not knowledge.

I agree, but the completion is done by the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of JESUS CHRIST -- Eph 3:19 -- To KNOW LOVE in its COMPLETE and TOTAL sense, is to KNOW what is OPPOSITE it... Then shall the LOVE surpass the KNOWLEDGE itself by coming to rest IN that TOTALITY... That NOTHING within YHVH is unrevealed... and He therefore becomes ALL in ALL... which IS the ETERNAL scenario.

Part of "knowing" what LOVE is, ...and LOVE "knowing" you... is the experiential KNOWLEDGE contained IN LOVE... only in this, can COMPLETION be the result.

People may perish for a lack of knowledge, but they only need enough knowledge that is sufficient for pointing their direction upwards - they don't need to know left, right, down, diagonal, and every direction possible - all they need is the direction of 'up'.  That is the purpose of knowledge, that alone is its purpose.  It is not for completeness.

This is simply your own conclusion... which I disagree with... Mine differs from yours... I believe that KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is a necessary part of KNOWING who and what GOD ...IS... For it is HIS KNOWLEDGE -- Gen 3:22 -- without coming to "know" intimately what HE "KNOWS" (which is gained by an experience of it)... then I cannot possibly "KNOW Him"

Let us not worship knowledge over God.

You might give EAR to your own words once in a while, bro.   :wink1:

I'd rather have incomplete knowledge and know God, than have all the knowledge in the world and not know him.

I agree... but "ALL the knowledge in the world" is but a small part of HIS KNOWLEDGE... and until you KNOW Him and what HE KNOWS... then you cannot "KNOW" Him.

Actually, our experience in life (which IS CHRIST -- John 14:6) is part of the TEACHING which arrives at the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... 

Not only the WORDS which are in the Scriptures are that which relate to KNOWING God, Lefien...  LIFE itself, is a teacher, Lefein for CHRIST is LIFE -- John 14:6 --  And you shall have many things to learn that only the EXPERIENCE of a LIFETIME shall teach you, ...of Him.

Sorry, ...but this "proposal of LYING" as an IMPOSSIBILITY for YHVH God --- is nothing but another of the same variety of ATHIESTIC questioning that asks... CAN God make a ROCK "to Heavy for Him to lift"

Better to be an "atheist" who knows the true God, than a "theist" who pretends to know him by attributing all manner of silliness to him.  God is not a clown who does tricks at a divine circus by proving that he can make stones into bread.  He simply will not use his power to prove such a point.

I have known many here in my seven+ years at TM... and as I remember, it has been only YOU which has suggested such things, Lefein.   And it is likely due to your inhibited perception of GOD that produces such derogatory words toward the Holy Father, YHVH...  He knows me well... and He and I together, have faced death several times through the course of my life, and yet here I AM...  In that course, I have never written such tainted and DISRESPECTFUL words for others to view, in association with HIM... as you have just written in the quote above.  :pitiful:

And if I may dare say, by your own theology of God's declarations being Absolute; God himself said that he cannot lie, and therefore it is not that he "can" lie, because straight out of the very mouth of God he has spoken as an unchanging, absolute truth;
"I - God - Can'Not - Lie"

That means, it is thoroughly, absolutely, infinitely, and always shall be - impossible. Most especially, according to the theology you seem to hold to.

"Seem" is the operative word in your quote, Lefein... You do not recognize my belief, for you are VEILED of it.  And only vanity arouses your words toward me, corresponding to that veiling.  Men often strike out at what they do not understand... it is not an unusual characteristic in humans.

It is actually somewhat humorous...  :laughing7:  You contrive a writing which poses me to say that GOD could LIE, when I said that HIS CHOICE to be TRUTH (He's God, no one is His counselor -- Isaiah 40:13) -- that GOD chooses NOT to LIE, and is UNCHANGING means that BY CHOICE He cannot Lie for it is HIS CHOICE which is UNCHANGING.

No "external" being counsels or advises Him... nor can anything MADE by Him, influence Him or HIS CHOICES.

That the SCRIPTURE notes that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD... does not disinclude ANYTHING.  Again, IGNORE if you must... while letting REASON and LOGIC escape your experience in doing so. :pitiful:

GOD is ABLE to do anything... but chooses to remain in HOLINESS in ALL His choosings.... GOD cannot LIE because He would negate Himself by doing so, for He is TRUTH...

So for all practical purposes; it is impossible, because the unchanging God cannot change so drastically as to negate his entire omnipresent, omniscient, all-time-dwelling, all-place-dwelling self by lying at any single moment in the entirety of his infinite existence.

It is rendered IMPOSSIBLE only because He has rendered it IMPOSSIBLE by His own CHOICE to do so... I have already given you an example you purposely ignore. 

You are (I assume), NOT a MURDERER are you Lefein?  And this is not a manifestation of YOU, because you are UNABLE to MURDER, ...it is a manifestation of YOU, ...because YOU CHOOSE not to MURDER.  :dontknow:

On an INFINITELY larger scope, ...the same is applicable to TRUTH...

TRUTH cannot LIE and remain TRUTH... not because it is UNABLE to perform that which could be considered a "LIE"... but because in doing so, it would CEASE to remain TRUTH.  It ain't that hard, bro.  :dontknow:

The Scripture notes in several places that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God... in order for those Scriptures to be TRUTH, ...then there is NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE for God to "do"...

Applied Calvinism.

More useless and misapplied labels which are intiated by you because you deduce others within your VEIL in hopes to exalt your own position -- which are actually a STRAWMAN which does not address the points discussed...  Trying to establish that something/anything which disagrees with YOUR perception is therefore NOT TRUTH --  :laugh: -- Please!   :mrflo:

You are a human being which CAN (are able) murder another... that you DO NOT MURDER does not mean that YOU CANNOT (are unable to) MURDER...

We however, unlike God - are full of sin, which God simply cannot do.

It is impossible for God to sin, it is impossible for God to lie.

GOD is the creator of the premise called SIN... do you KNOW what SIN is, Lefein?  Though you would give it a much HARDER definition as do most RELIGIOUS theologians...

The word "SIN" actually means MISSING the MARK... Look it up... it might help you understand the "PROBLEM of EVIL" which is the topic we are to be discussing in this thread...

I don't quite care if a single interpretation of a verse in a book says that God can do the impossible (ludicrous more like, ludicrous and rootedly divided-unstable in his heart if he did so) - his omnipotence is not a license for ludicrous use of his power.

The verse SAYS what it SAYS, irregardless of your unwillingness to accept what it SAYS.  And all the fancily self esteemed words you might try to poetically string together,  ...shall not CHANGE what it SAYS.

And it doesn't matter whether "YOU CARE" or not.  Why do you make every discussion about >>>YOU<<< Lefein?   :dontknow:

It is not possible for God to lie, but God can do what is impossible for men to do.  And if I recall...it is impossible for men not to lie.  What man can't do, God can; He is powerful enough that he cannot lie.

:blahgreen: :blah: ...and oh yeah....  :blahgreen:

...willieH  :laughing7:

[willieH]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Looking at the forest... failing to see the trees...  :sigh:

I completely agree that it did not enter into the MIND of YHVH to command them, so He did not command them...

He however FOREKNEW and DECLARED that they would DISOBEY,  ...so they DID disobey...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

So, I contend it takes faith like Job's to believe that God is still in control over circumstances he did not invent.

Yes,  Gods foreknowledge does not inherantly conclude that God invented something.   But what man perceives to be is not stronger than Gods nature to perfect us.

Any "decision" that MEN "make", fall under the category of "things MADE"...

John 1:3 --- ALL THINGS were MADE by Him, and WITHOUT HIM, was NOT any THING ...MADE, that was MADE --- not just some "things"

Col 1:17 --- and HE IS before ...ALL THINGS... and BY HIM, ...ALL THINGS consist. --- not just some "things"

Eph 1:11 --- in Whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --- not just some "things"

ALL things which appear in this Creation, came forth and originated from, ...the WORD of YHVH GOD, for they are REVELATIONS of (unrevealed) "things" KNOWN by Him...

Furthermore, they were ALL DECLARED (end to beginning) before even ONE of them were manifest (had taken place) BY the WORD of that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10

To propose, that some thing (even ONE THING) no matter how small or insignificant or distasteful or sorrowful or  :blahgreen: :blah: --- exists that GOD did not "invent" (because he held the KNOWLEDGE of that "thing", and before it came to "BE"... it was FOREKNOWN and DECLARED by Him -- thereby gaining its "YET to Happen -- existence"), ...then He is not the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...  :dontknow:  ...Is thinking which is (IMO), unenlightened.

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

But it had to have entered their mind. God's mind could not think a thought like that, but the way God made the mind of man to work, that thought to burn their sons, was bound to come forth; perhaps one cannot accept that God is the one who will cause the circumstance for the out come; even to allow mans mind to have thoughts like burning their sons and carrying it out. If one believes that Jehovah God is not aware of what He created and how  His creation will think and do, then they have not considered the ways of God. His ways and thoughts are far above ours, and He will not come down to mans low thought process (earthy/natural). We must come up to His (heavenly and of the Spirit.)

[willieH]

God bless you from olam, to olam, and beyond Molly.  :thumbsup:

edited

There is only ONE ETERNITY -- and men travel FROM eternity... TO the FAR COUNTRY [time]... returning to ETERNITY... Luke 15:11-12 (eternity) ------> Luke 15:13-18 (time) -----> Luke 15:20-32 (eternity)

...willieH  :laughing7:

[Lefein]

You mock even my blessings toward a dear sister   [edited]

[jabcat]

This is a 3 parter  :bigGrin:

1.  Easy guys.  This topic is flammable enough.  Let's try to keep it open.  (You know what I'm talking about  :HeartThrob:)


2.  I did some checking.  Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar  :pointlaugh:   :LH: I had to do some research.

In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.

I found this, first of all, from the NT; 

"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.

II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";

Strong's -   lying spirit, spirit of deceit,  Young's "spirit of falsehood"

1Kings 22:22 And  said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold,  YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH  said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH  hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil against thee.

3.  Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND"  :director:    LOL;

I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing.  I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.

"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware

[thinktank]

This is a 3 parter  :bigGrin:

1.  Easy guys.  This topic is flammable enough.  Let's try to keep it open.  (You know what I'm talking about  :HeartThrob:)


2.  I did some checking.  Not being anything even resembling a Hebrew scholar  :pointlaugh:   :LH: I had to do some research.

In my limited knowledge, and IMO, "lying" or "deceiving" spirit appears to be an accurate rendering.

I found this, first of all, from the NT; 

"God allows all who do not love TRUTH and have pleasure in unrighteousness to be deceived as the verses below point out.

II Thess. 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2:12
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


The following from the OT contain "lying/deceiving spirit";

Strong's -   lying spirit, spirit of deceit,  Young's "spirit of falsehood"

1Kings 22:22 And  said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold,  YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH  said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, YHWH  hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH  hath spoken evil against thee.


How can a God who cannot lie put a lying spirit within a person?

A Christian believer: Because God can do the impossible

Reason: So that means God can be evil if he wants, perhaps torture people in hell for eternity

A christian beliver: Thats impossible for God is love

Reason: How do you know?

A christian believer: Because the scriptures say so

Reason: The scriptures also say he cannot lie

So if God or his agents are not the lying spirit whos the lying spirit?

3.  Re: "DID NOT EVEN ENTER HIS MIND"  LOL;

I wondered if that could actually have the meaning along the lines of, "he never intended to do it", not that He was that unaware and unknowing.  I found the following, which suggests an accurate rendering is about intent, rather than God's lack of knowledge.

"Finally, open theists stress passages in which God expressed surprise or disappointment (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). The passages in Jeremiah appear to support open theism. God said three times that the idolatrous abomination of child sacrifices never "entered my mind." Yet, the passage does not claim the God never thought about this specific behavior. Three times God specifically warned Israel of this particular sin centuries before the sixth-century prophet Jeremiah (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). Rather, the phrase "enter my mind" commonly described intention. The act of child sacrifice unashamedly opposed God's intention or will." - Bruce Ware

Why would it enter his mind?

Does a christian beliver meditate on what happens when a baby is thrown into the fire?
Or meditate on a solution on how to stop babies being thrown into the fire?

Also Where did God get this knowledge from, if he had it before this scripture occurence of people throwing babies in the fire?